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Keep in mind, 2 trukks can be in two locations. A battlewagon is putting all your eggs in one basket.

Not that it's bad, but it's not totally about raw numbers here.

Also remember that a battlewagon doesn't actually have the capacity of 2 trukks. Trukks have 12 slots each, which opens up for 10 (or the new, situationally super important 11+) and a character. A battlewagon can only take either 2 boyz squads or a singular one plus other characters.

I think I still prefer the trukks personally but the BWs aren't a bad choice, even if they eat into HS slots. I think I'd only take them over trukks if you specifically want a deffrolla or if you're in some melta meta where you really want that forktress kustom job (which a trukk could also take but that seems like a waste to me)

Appreciate the help guys, yeah I forgot a 2nd HQ....There really isn't one that I want LOL. I feel like the SpeedWaaagh is more important than the regular one so Maybe i'll switch out Ghaz for a warboss on warbike and than grab....I have no idea, maybe a weirdboy or something. With the rest of the saved points i'll grab Bomb squigs for the kommandos and some more models in there as well.

Fun story I thought you'd all enjoy.

Tried my first 9th game with the information we have. Just to see. Put ghaz in a BW for fun.

Exploded. Rolled a 1. RIP

I strongly encourage everyone continues to do this until you also roll a 1 for ghaz. It's amazing.

Keramory wrote:
Fun story I thought you'd all enjoy.

Tried my first 9th game with the information we have. Just to see. Put ghaz in a BW for fun.

Exploded. Rolled a 1. RIP

I strongly encourage everyone continues to do this until you also roll a 1 for ghaz. It's amazing.

Yeah, it was the first come in my mind - on 1 model is slain.

That is the reason, why my BW crew is 4-5 MANz and 10 grots. With grots, it' s very relaxing to the Emegrency Disembark, slay more grots and put MANz 6” away…. Like behind the containers or ruins for example

tulun wrote:
Keep in mind, 2 trukks can be in two locations. A battlewagon is putting all your eggs in one basket.

Not that it's bad, but it's not totally about raw numbers here.

I can understand that, it just bums me out that trukk has no actual offensive capability. Boyz and snaggaz are definitely better in offensive output than they were, it just feels like a huge tax to pay 70 points on top of 95-110 points to get a naked boyz squad on the table.

At least the Battlewagon can do something meaningful in combat phase.

I'm really looking at things like Warbikers and Squighogs and their sheer output without having to take a transport. Why would I want to spend 170 points on a trukk boyz squad that is nothing more than the boyz in terms of offense?

At least a BW with 2 squads of boyz is more points efficient in terms of actually getting 3 models on the board, all three of which can offend the enemy. The Trukk literally has nothing more than a big shoota and a few attacks hitting on 5's.

I could see taking a BW in tandem with a trukk, I just can't see getting three trukks with 10 boyz squads. The Trukk itself is dead weight with a big shoota. I would like to see a similar item to the deff rolla, just scaled down, like a spiked ram. At least a 4+ to hit would be nice. It makes vastly more sense either to me as a transport for heavy infantry like nobs or meganobz or an open topped platform for units that can actually shoot, like burnas. It seems like it was devised from the outset as a mobile bunker and rapid assault vehicle based on its 4th edition rules due to assault vehicle. It actually had two perks, being one of a handful of assault vehicles on top of allowing units to shoot out of it, which was unique at the time. Compared to a Razorback or a Rhino, it actually seemed nice. It would be great if the math for shootas wasn't quite so dismal, which is why I think a lot hinges on a frank ruling about speed waaagh.

I think the concept of 3 mobile trukk bunkers for shootas actually sounds awesome, I just think the shootas themselves underperform in strong contrast to their 5th edition version and I can't get over that. They used to compare very favorably to tactical marines. The 2 wound MEQ just makes them seem like pea shooters. It looks you'd be taking a single marine off the board at dakka range with 12 shootas.

Keramory wrote:
Fun story I thought you'd all enjoy.

Tried my first 9th game with the information we have. Just to see. Put ghaz in a BW for fun.

Exploded. Rolled a 1. RIP

I strongly encourage everyone continues to do this until you also roll a 1 for ghaz. It's amazing.

Tbh if your taking Ghaz in a Wagon, you really should spend 25pts for a Mek to eat the 1 and if your scared youll roll 2 ones, take a 2nd mek for another 25pts.

 Tomsug wrote:

Keramory wrote:
Fun story I thought you'd all enjoy.

Tried my first 9th game with the information we have. Just to see. Put ghaz in a BW for fun.

Exploded. Rolled a 1. RIP

I strongly encourage everyone continues to do this until you also roll a 1 for ghaz. It's amazing.

Yeah, it was the first come in my mind - on 1 model is slain.

That is the reason, why my BW crew is 4-5 MANz and 10 grots. With grots, it' s very relaxing to the Emegrency Disembark, slay more grots and put MANz 6” away…. Like behind the containers or ruins for example

I was in a tournament a few years back where the opponent argued that the check had to be made per specific model, and the tournament organizer agreed with them so i had to roll for ghaz separately from the nobz squad he was riding with (8th edition index) nobz all lived on the ghaz roll he bit it. was obviously not how the rule worked but needless to say i have not attended a tournament at that location since, there were lots of questionable rules called there.

Keramory wrote:
Fun story I thought you'd all enjoy.

Tried my first 9th game with the information we have. Just to see. Put ghaz in a BW for fun.

Exploded. Rolled a 1. RIP

I strongly encourage everyone continues to do this until you also roll a 1 for ghaz. It's amazing.

I have a reputation of failing single die checks, regardless of what the test is for. Started playing AoS recently and my Plague Furnace hits on a 2+ for D3+4 mortal wounds, i have legit failed it more than succeeded (and in only 6 games its easy to track that record).
Never trust a single test to not fail even on a 2+ lol...bring a random mek for sure

Despite all the +1 to hit in the new Dex, I'm leaning heavily towards a freebooter heavy list (All the Dakka Jets!). How are people envisioning proccing the rule...what are you going to be shooting with first to wipe a unit and then proc the Army wide +1?

 TedNugent wrote:

tulun wrote:
Keep in mind, 2 trukks can be in two locations. A battlewagon is putting all your eggs in one basket.

Not that it's bad, but it's not totally about raw numbers here.

I can understand that, it just bums me out that trukk has no actual offensive capability. Boyz and snaggaz are definitely better in offensive output than they were, it just feels like a huge tax to pay 70 points on top of 95-110 points to get a naked boyz squad on the table.

At least the Battlewagon can do something meaningful in combat phase.

I'm really looking at things like Warbikers and Squighogs and their sheer output without having to take a transport. Why would I want to spend 170 points on a trukk boyz squad that is nothing more than the boyz in terms of offense?

At least a BW with 2 squads of boyz is more points efficient in terms of actually getting 3 models on the board, all three of which can offend the enemy. The Trukk literally has nothing more than a big shoota and a few attacks hitting on 5's.

I could see taking a BW in tandem with a trukk, I just can't see getting three trukks with 10 boyz squads. The Trukk itself is dead weight with a big shoota. I would like to see a similar item to the deff rolla, just scaled down, like a spiked ram. At least a 4+ to hit would be nice. It makes vastly more sense either to me as a transport for heavy infantry like nobs or meganobz or an open topped platform for units that can actually shoot, like burnas. It seems like it was devised from the outset as a mobile bunker and rapid assault vehicle based on its 4th edition rules due to assault vehicle. It actually had two perks, being one of a handful of assault vehicles on top of allowing units to shoot out of it, which was unique at the time. Compared to a Razorback or a Rhino, it actually seemed nice. It would be great if the math for shootas wasn't quite so dismal, which is why I think a lot hinges on a frank ruling about speed waaagh.

I think the concept of 3 mobile trukk bunkers for shootas actually sounds awesome, I just think the shootas themselves underperform in strong contrast to their 5th edition version and I can't get over that. They used to compare very favorably to tactical marines. The 2 wound MEQ just makes them seem like pea shooters. It looks you'd be taking a single marine off the board at dakka range with 12 shootas.

Battlewagons feel best unarmed, your paying 135pts for something that might not use its Deff Rolla, or even get to choose what it uses its Rolla against if it gets charged by units it doesnt want to fight. A Battlewagon is more about getting your unit where it needs to go safely compared to a Trukk or two. With T8 and a 3+ save then ramshackle, it should get where it needs to go, however the meta is swimming in Melta/DLances/CLas that its still gonna go down like a sack of gob squigs. I think when these kind of weapons "finally" get brought in line with the rest of reality (costing them right) we might see Battlewagons hit the field. A Trukk is just enough, it gets you where you need to go, a Battlewagon just delievers a larger number of that unit or provides more room for cushioning against explosions (10 Grots).

A Squiggoth is a better gun platform for the likes of Bustas and Gitz, Trukks get you their faster and cheaper, a Killtank pulls double duty and a Killrig has the added benefit of more melee and also being a Beastsnagga. I dont think Battlewagons are bad, they just need a more chilled out AT meta than the others, its now amazing vs those str 5/6/7 damage 2/D3 shots with its improved armour save, but we arent in that state right now. Maybe when T'au and Eldar get redone as they are largely a str 6/7 army, but I imagine when Fusion Blasters/Guns and Railguns/BLances get the Melta DLance treatment, those types of weapons we see from them now with subside for these new AT ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tumbleweed wrote:
Despite all the +1 to hit in the new Dex, I'm leaning heavily towards a freeboter heavy list (All the Dakka Jets!). How are people envisioning proccing the rule...what are you going to be shooting with first to wipe a unit and then proc the Army wide +1?

Wazbom/koptas? Go for easy kills like chaff or forward deploy units, a Rukka could do it too with its indirect. Just pray you get good shots out of it.

Tumbleweed wrote:
Despite all the +1 to hit in the new Dex, I'm leaning heavily towards a freeboter heavy list (All the Dakka Jets!). How are people envisioning proccing the rule...what are you going to be shooting with first to wipe a unit and then proc the Army wide +1?

I'm right there with you. I think Mek gunz might still be a good place to start with Freebootas to get that +1 to hit. A few KMKz will kill most light vehicles or elite squads.

That was my first thought...I dont want to waste premium shooting like Kotptaz or Wazbom without getting them the +1 to hit...unfortunately Mek gunz are filthy grots and don't proc the Kulture :(

No they do. They did not change the wording on how the Freeboota proc works, they just removed the 24" thing.

Gretchin do not BENEFIT from a kulture, they are still part of that kulture though. Mekgunz are still freebootas they just dont get the +1 to hit. The freeboota aura is just looking for a a freeboota that killed something, which would be independent of receiving a buff from the rule.

As i pointed out several several pages ago when this popped up in the current dex, think of it like "Oi! Dat git killed somefin! We can do betta!"
And no Ork is going to flatout ignore a Gretchin killed something before they did...

Tumbleweed wrote:
That was my first thought...I dont want to waste premium shooting like Kotptaz or Wazbom without getting them the +1 to hit...unfortunately Mek gunz are filthy grots and don't proc the Kulture :(

Trigger:
"Each time a Freebooterz unit destroys an enemy unit..... "

Benefit:
"Each time an attack is made by another Freebooterz unit with this Kulture from your army..... "

Grotz should be fine to set it off, they just won't get +1 to hit themselves.

Do you guys think the dragsta is still viable? His gun is only 24" and you can't autojump him anymore... Also d3 mortals on a 8W vehicle is devastating... I think the scrapjet outshines him by far... Am I wrong?

SemperMortis wrote:

Tumbleweed wrote:
Despite all the +1 to hit in the new Dex, I'm leaning heavily towards a freeboter heavy list (All the Dakka Jets!). How are people envisioning proccing the rule...what are you going to be shooting with first to wipe a unit and then proc the Army wide +1?

I'm right there with you. I think Mek gunz might still be a good place to start with Freebootas to get that +1 to hit. A few KMKz will kill most light vehicles or elite squads.

I was looking at the tractor cannon. The damage roll of d3 +3 and d6x3 and +2 to against aircraft is substantial for 45 points.

RedNoak wrote:
Do you guys think the dragsta is still viable? His gun is only 24" and you can't autojump him anymore... Also d3 mortals on a 8W vehicle is devastating... I think the scrapjet outshines him by far... Am I wrong?

Probably not since the other major aspect is loss of the reroll damage.
At this point scrapjets are better imo. Shokkjumps were only really good because they could jump and snipe characters reliably and the reroll damage made their 2 shots almost always hit hard.

Appreciate the clear up on the Mek gunz. The way i read it was as the Grotz don't have the Kulture, they don't proc it, but your interpretation makes sense (in english as opposed to in Lore, in which case the rule defo applies). Fortunately I bet there are a load of mek gunz going second hand since they halved the unit size...

Big winners for buggies to me are the squig buggy and the scrapjet.

How do people feel about rokkit koptas vs the scrapjet?

 TedNugent wrote:
Now that transports are a thing again, what are thoughts on using a battlewagon as opposed to a trukk.

BW with a rolla is 135 and has T7 with 16 wounds behind a 3+.

That's less than two Trukks and has double the transport capacity. Why not use this instead.

My problem with a Trukk is that it literally can't do anything other than tie up a unit in assault once down the board. It's nothing more than a box with wounds and some movement speed when embarked. Without Trukk Boyz being a rule and limited to one unit, why bother for a big shoota when I can get a deff rolla instead that will actually do work?

A few reasons.

One is Dedicated Transport, using no slots, vs Heavy Support slots. Every Battlewagon taken is one less DeffDread mob or one less rack of Mek Guns.Trukks leave room for more boom.

Trukkas are faster, getting you where you need to be earlier.

Two trukks means two objectives. One Battlewagon means one objective.

With the level of vehicle-erasing units out there (Hi, Eradicators! Hullo Dark Lances!), a single big target is super easy to drop. Two smaller ones is trickier. Wasting wounds, or leaving a trukk a 1-3 wounds, will happen often.

A big shoota isn't much, but all trukks come with one. Battlewagons come with no weapons at all. A little firepower's better than no firepower.

So, those are all good reasons why you might want trukks instead of Wagons.

As for using the Trukks?

The obvious, of course, is "GET 'IM!", where they just roll forward and then die (possibly exploding!) which is all most Trukks will ever do, but if they *do* live, then you start getting options.

The most basic is to draw overwatch by charging before a unit that you care about. See those Aggressors with the frag launchers and the bolter gauntlets? Wee the 6_ save on your lads? DRIVE A TRUK AT 'EM! Doesn't matter if they kill it or not, it sucked up all that sweet, sweet dakka that would have eaten your boys, letting you bring Choppas to da faces, like you've always wanted.

Objective stealin'! Some armies just don't have enough bodies for all the objectives, but Trukks are dirt-cheap and SUPER fast … dip into the backlines and snipe an objective. Sure, that Gladiator can erase you from existence, but if it's shoting an empty trukk that's on an objective, it ain't shooting your Deff Dreads that are lumbering forward. And if they shoot the dreads? Well, you got 5 primary points for holding an objective. Win-win!

Move blocking! If you've ever gone against a Tau player who knew how to use aircraft and Piranha, you know how frustrating it can be to have big ol' things parked right where you want to be. Ruins LoS for shooting, but more than that, it keeps enemy units from being where they want to be by just parking in their way. They'll charge it, sure, maybe kill it, but that's one less round where anyone could have run through that gap, giving you more time to hold objectives and keep fire off of your lads.

Trukks. They're real, real useful.

RedNoak wrote:
Do you guys think the dragsta is still viable? His gun is only 24" and you can't autojump him anymore... Also d3 mortals on a 8W vehicle is devastating... I think the scrapjet outshines him by far... Am I wrong?

I think dragstas are still great if you can keep the alive to score endgame "engage on all fronts" (but for that you need to play them conservatively the first turns, and as they are short ranged, well that won't always go well), but indeed on all other aspects, scrapjets are better (they even have one more wound !). But there is no way scrapjets are staying 90 points and dragstas 85 next CA.

BTW is nose drill still the same weapon ?

Tumbleweed wrote:
Despite all the +1 to hit in the new Dex, I'm leaning heavily towards a freebooter heavy list (All the Dakka Jets!). How are people envisioning proccing the rule...what are you going to be shooting with first to wipe a unit and then proc the Army wide +1?

I've been thinking along these lines as well, my thinking is flash gitz, mek guns, and tankbustas. Gitz because they're BS 4+ already and can pretty reliably blow away 5 MEQ in one shooting phase (with a shoot-twice strat in case they whiff, and Badrukk potentially allowing re-roll 1's), tankbustas because they get the +1 to hit vs vehicles already and don't need the buff, and mek guns because they're BS 4+ and can't benefit from the clan but can still trigger the bonus for everyone else. If you're against low-T, low-save models like guard or admech, burna boyz could do as well.

The problem I run into is then filling out the list with things other than dakkajets that actually want the +1 to hit - lootas maybe? Buggies? SAG mek? Arguably the best use is to trigger with something else and then double-shoot BS3+ flash gitz, then enjoy the carnage - on average you're wiping out 20 marines in one turn if you can re-roll 1's to hit as well (and assuming a ten-man squad of marines is the closest target, of course).

 Dendarien wrote:
Big winners for buggies to me are the squig buggy and the scrapjet.

How do people feel about rokkit koptas vs the scrapjet?

Boosta-blastas got buffed in every way. They got D6 on their exhausts, got a point drop, and Dakka weapon type means they all around perform better at the shorter range they want to be at in order to use the exhausts/charge for MW.

We did lose Burnin' Highway but I pegged that one as a goner as soon as I saw it, and it's not a complete loss as we get the AP back during Speedwaaagh. A squad of 2 is 160 pts and I think is a good tool for anti-forward deployment units.

I'm not sure if I like KBB in squads personally, I think it could get a bit clunky with regards of reaching targets with the new buffed flamers. They're buffed in damage but the range is still just 8" so I'm worried one of them will block the other.

I personally don't like the new shokkjump dragsta, if they renamed the rokkit launcha on it to like a "dragsta rokkit" which would keep the old rokkit launcha stats (1 shot but assault) I'd be a lot more intruiged. Now either you use its signature ability or its new buffed firepower. That just feels like poor design IMO, even if it comes at a reduced pricepoint.

A squad of 2 snazzwagons sounds like pretty fun to me though, permanent -1 to hit means they're not great to shoot at and almost all their weapons being dakka means you could fire them in CC at no great cost.

The skrapjets are still amazing, a bunch of buffed (especially in a speedwaaagh) big shoota shots, buffed wing missile and buffed rokkit kannon. For fewer points? Yes please!

 office_waaagh wrote:

Tumbleweed wrote:
Despite all the +1 to hit in the new Dex, I'm leaning heavily towards a freebooter heavy list (All the Dakka Jets!). How are people envisioning proccing the rule...what are you going to be shooting with first to wipe a unit and then proc the Army wide +1?

I've been thinking along these lines as well, my thinking is flash gitz, mek guns, and tankbustas. Gitz because they're BS 4+ already and can pretty reliably blow away 5 MEQ in one shooting phase (with a shoot-twice strat in case they whiff, and Badrukk potentially allowing re-roll 1's), tankbustas because they get the +1 to hit vs vehicles already and don't need the buff, and mek guns because they're BS 4+ and can't benefit from the clan but can still trigger the bonus for everyone else. If you're against low-T, low-save models like guard or admech, burna boyz could do as well.

The problem I run into is then filling out the list with things other than dakkajets that actually want the +1 to hit - lootas maybe? Buggies? SAG mek? Arguably the best use is to trigger with something else and then double-shoot BS3+ flash gitz, then enjoy the carnage - on average you're wiping out 20 marines in one turn if you can re-roll 1's to hit as well (and assuming a ten-man squad of marines is the closest target, of course).

Buggies and Warbikes...realistically if you're going for dakka jets you want to be able to declare a speed waaaagh. That means a wartrike boss so you're leaning towards a light vehicle list if youre making the most of the stuff thats good? Thats my thoughts on it anyway. But literally any and all ork shooting becomes...pretty good once you're hitting 50% vs 33%

PiñaColada wrote:
I'm not sure if I like KBB in squads personally, I think it could get a bit clunky with regards of reaching targets with the new buffed flamers. They're buffed in damage but the range is still just 8" so I'm worried one of them will block the other.

I personally don't like the new shokkjump dragsta, if they renamed the rokkit launcha on it to like a "dragsta rokkit" which would keep the old rokkit launcha stats (1 shot but assault) I'd be a lot more intruiged. Now either you use its signature ability or its new buffed firepower. That just feels like poor design IMO, even if it comes at a reduced pricepoint.

A squad of 2 snazzwagons sounds like pretty fun to me though, permanent -1 to hit means they're not great to shoot at and almost all their weapons being dakka means you could fire them in CC at no great cost.

The skrapjets are still amazing, a bunch of buffed (especially in a speedwaaagh) big shoota shots, buffed wing missile and buffed rokkit kannon. For fewer points? Yes please!

If the pyromaniacs subkultur gets fixed that's worth considering on KBBs as well. If you can get that squad of 2 in range (this is not as hard as you make it seem, they have large bases and you don't have to measure from the same point, they can "parallel park" alongside the target and measure from the the closest points between their bases, plus they're still assault weapons so you get to advance if it's required) that's 24-48 S4 Ap-1 hits.

 office_waaagh wrote:

Tumbleweed wrote:
Despite all the +1 to hit in the new Dex, I'm leaning heavily towards a freebooter heavy list (All the Dakka Jets!). How are people envisioning proccing the rule...what are you going to be shooting with first to wipe a unit and then proc the Army wide +1?

I've been thinking along these lines as well, my thinking is flash gitz, mek guns, and tankbustas. Gitz because they're BS 4+ already and can pretty reliably blow away 5 MEQ in one shooting phase (with a shoot-twice strat in case they whiff, and Badrukk potentially allowing re-roll 1's), tankbustas because they get the +1 to hit vs vehicles already and don't need the buff, and mek guns because they're BS 4+ and can't benefit from the clan but can still trigger the bonus for everyone else. If you're against low-T, low-save models like guard or admech, burna boyz could do as well.

The problem I run into is then filling out the list with things other than dakkajets that actually want the +1 to hit - lootas maybe? Buggies? SAG mek? Arguably the best use is to trigger with something else and then double-shoot BS3+ flash gitz, then enjoy the carnage - on average you're wiping out 20 marines in one turn if you can re-roll 1's to hit as well (and assuming a ten-man squad of marines is the closest target, of course).

Sadly Gun Crazy Showoffs can only be used at the end of the shooting phase.
But there should be plenty of ways to trigger the culture anyways.

Wakshaani wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
Now that transports are a thing again, what are thoughts on using a battlewagon as opposed to a trukk.

BW with a rolla is 135 and has T7 with 16 wounds behind a 3+.

That's less than two Trukks and has double the transport capacity. Why not use this instead.

My problem with a Trukk is that it literally can't do anything other than tie up a unit in assault once down the board. It's nothing more than a box with wounds and some movement speed when embarked. Without Trukk Boyz being a rule and limited to one unit, why bother for a big shoota when I can get a deff rolla instead that will actually do work?

A few reasons.

One is Dedicated Transport, using no slots, vs Heavy Support slots. Every Battlewagon taken is one less DeffDread mob or one less rack of Mek Guns.Trukks leave room for more boom.

Trukkas are faster, getting you where you need to be earlier.

Two trukks means two objectives. One Battlewagon means one objective.

With the level of vehicle-erasing units out there (Hi, Eradicators! Hullo Dark Lances!), a single big target is super easy to drop. Two smaller ones is trickier. Wasting wounds, or leaving a trukk a 1-3 wounds, will happen often.

A big shoota isn't much, but all trukks come with one. Battlewagons come with no weapons at all. A little firepower's better than no firepower.

So, those are all good reasons why you might want trukks instead of Wagons.

As for using the Trukks?

The obvious, of course, is "GET 'IM!", where they just roll forward and then die (possibly exploding!) which is all most Trukks will ever do, but if they *do* live, then you start getting options.

The most basic is to draw overwatch by charging before a unit that you care about. See those Aggressors with the frag launchers and the bolter gauntlets? Wee the 6_ save on your lads? DRIVE A TRUK AT 'EM! Doesn't matter if they kill it or not, it sucked up all that sweet, sweet dakka that would have eaten your boys, letting you bring Choppas to da faces, like you've always wanted.

Objective stealin'! Some armies just don't have enough bodies for all the objectives, but Trukks are dirt-cheap and SUPER fast … dip into the backlines and snipe an objective. Sure, that Gladiator can erase you from existence, but if it's shoting an empty trukk that's on an objective, it ain't shooting your Deff Dreads that are lumbering forward. And if they shoot the dreads? Well, you got 5 primary points for holding an objective. Win-win!

Move blocking! If you've ever gone against a Tau player who knew how to use aircraft and Piranha, you know how frustrating it can be to have big ol' things parked right where you want to be. Ruins LoS for shooting, but more than that, it keeps enemy units from being where they want to be by just parking in their way. They'll charge it, sure, maybe kill it, but that's one less round where anyone could have run through that gap, giving you more time to hold objectives and keep fire off of your lads.

Trukks. They're real, real useful.

Trukks definitely aren't faster.

It's 12/8/6 versus 12/9/6.

Have you looked at the numbers for a deff Rolla? It does a large amount of damage in comparison to a big Shoota. Like 15 times as much damage against 2W MEQs compared to a big Shoota at 18".

Literally. At undegraded 6 attacks, it's .83*.83*.66*6 is 2.73 average against a T4 3+ with 2 damage each, or 5.45

A big Shoota has a .36 chance to wound an MEQ. 5.45 / .36 is literally 15 times as much damage. A fresh deffrolla can kill 2 MEQs and wound a third, a big Shoota has a 1/3 chance to hurt a single Marine. It's a non factor.

Of you actually want to kill something with your transport, a deffrolla can do that. A Trukk can't.

You're also paying for that big Shoota, it's baked into the cost. It used to be 65 with 5 points for the mandatory big Shoota, now it's just 70. You could easily throw 1-4 big Shootas on your BW, but most people wouldn't because they don't really do much against durable units. And even if they did, the battlewagon can take more of them for the same price.

And they can also do the same things, e.g. Los blocking or assaulting/absorbing overwatch. With a bigger model. And while they're less efficient numerically, you can use things like ramming speed and get in combat where you want to be with the Rolla.

Only point I'm seeing is the heavy support slots, but deff dreads for instance you can take 1-3 per slot. Same thing with mek guns. How many of these things are you taking? You should be able to get as many as 6 mek guns and still have a slot left over for a battlewagon.

To me it sounds like a question of whether to spend a heavy support slot on something that does the same thing as two trukks plus dealing significant damage in combat, or burn 70 points on a model that does little to nothing other than cart around a single unit.

It's probably not as necessary to run dreads when you have something that provides a relatively similar amount of close combat damage output as a dread against most targets and doubles as a transport. I'm not convinced on dreads because unlike the battlewagon, it's quite slow at 6" and would probably make the most sense in tellyporta with a couple of skorchas considering they are 12" range now.

It's not that I think trukks are useless necessarily, I just don't think they can kill anything. A deff Rolla can kill stuff and carry two units for roughly double the price. Why not bring at least one plus a Trukk for the third unit for your minimum troops?

 Grotrebel wrote:

Sadly Gun Crazy Showoffs can only be used at the end of the shooting phase.
But there should be plenty of ways to trigger the culture anyways.

Ah, good catch! So not much help triggering the +1...on the other hand, it means they can trigger the bonus for themselves - you can blow away a unit with the gitz and then use gun crazy showoffs to shoot again with the +1 to hit this time.