the_scotsman wrote: oh hey, something random I just noticed as we were having the inevitable "but are we suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuureeeeeeee GW didn't intend for me to be able to have 2 chapter tactics on all my units???" discussion: Flash Gitz have <clan> now. I noticed they weren't in the list of exceptions.
Neat.
Hurray for Flash Gits ! Please, where is that discussion you talk of, that I may rerad it ?
Obviously, "Cant ride in transports' is unintentional and either transports will be reworded to Ork Infantry rather than <clan> infantry or Specialist Mobz will keep <clan> but lose kultur.
I still believe basically by default taking 2 specialist mobs to get a couple trukk boyz/trukk nobz mobs or Pyromaniac'd Burnas will be kind of a default thing you'll see in basically every competitive list.
Nothing earth shattering for sure but I rate it way higher than the frankly terrible kustom jobs. I maybe might do squighide tires on a trukk or bonebreaka that's going to be delivering some turn 1 trukk nobz and nitro squigs doesnt seem too awful but...most of them are just pure ass. I suspect the souped up kustom one is going to get FAQed to only apply to one KMB, too, it mightve survived as is if only dreads could get 4 but with my beautiful grot megatank abusing it I dont think it's gonna fly under the radar.
nah they'll just shaft gretchin even further and say kustom jobs cant affect gretchin units. Since kanz/mek gunz cant use them anyway it doesnt hurt them.
the_scotsman wrote: oh hey, something random I just noticed as we were having the inevitable "but are we suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuureeeeeeee GW didn't intend for me to be able to have 2 chapter tactics on all my units???" discussion: Flash Gitz have <clan> now. I noticed they weren't in the list of exceptions.
Neat.
Hurray for Flash Gits ! Please, where is that discussion you talk of, that I may rerad it ?
Oh, XKC18 was claiming that a couple pages back he didn't think the "except for specialist ladz' line in the clan kultur rules actually meant that specialist mobz lost clan kultur. Now that we have the actual dex wording we know they do (which raises a whole host of other RAW-crowd chicken littling as people are larping that GW will actually leave it so they cant embark on transports.
office_waaagh wrote: I assume specialist mobs will be faq'd to let them keep their CLAN keyword, and just not benefit from the kultur, I can't think of any issues that would create if they just delete the second part of that sentence.
It's probably good they're restricted to one per detachment, being able to take something that doesn't benefit from your kultur and give it a different one specifically tailored to it is pretty strong - and presumably you can give a morkanaut or gorkanaut big krumpaz so it can actually benefit from a kultur in a SH aux detachment. Which is, you know, fine.
FAQ would definitely help, personally I don't think the abilities given are strong enough to warrant losing clan benefits though (i.e. big krumpaz is no benefit to Goffs at all, sometimes no benefit to freebootas, and never a benefit if you stand next to a warboss).
Unfortunately, leaked images indicate aux detachments can't use specialisms, so while a nice idea I don't think a lone 'naut can do that.
So the only way you can use the naut kustom jobs is if you do a full super heavy detach for 6 CP?
With each release the "um Achshually" crowd must have their little snits - it's why I'd probably advise waiting for at least the 2-week faq to make a new thread lest the first few pages be infested with silly crap claims like 'well in the chinese translation if you translate it back to english the waaagh rule only applies to orc units and since there are only ork units the rule doesnt worrrrrk!"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: nah they'll just shaft gretchin even further and say kustom jobs cant affect gretchin units. Since kanz/mek gunz cant use them anyway it doesnt hurt them.
Also a possibility. Damn, I'm going to miss Cheeky Zoggerz......GW was like "no! You're having too much fun! No fun allowed! You'll pay your 5 points for an orders-less save-less laspistol equipped guardsman and you'll LIKE IT!"
Automatically Appended Next Post: So in terms of spec mobs that seem to have some good teeth:
-Trukk boyz, seems like a pretty clear way to get some good value out of a troop slot instead of having it be a semi-tax. Boom Boyz on a big unit of tankbustas seems pretty solid, Pyromaniacs on 12 burnas as well seems pretty nice. Various clan kulturs seem to pretty easily outperform flyboyz sneaky gitz big krumpas and madboyz, I guess if you want to run one out-of-character unit in an otherwise all-punchy or all-shooty list theyre good, but I think most ork players will be running lower on slots than on CPs so 2 detachments will be more like the default.
Orrible Gits just seems a waste to bother with. 30 grots with an attendant 'herd are 180pts that I am fairly unconvinced by, and Zogrod seems destined to be one of those units people always conveniently forget when they spin their 'gw always makes the new thing op so they can sell it to people' yarns. You could combo his super grots with orrible gits but....is 30 BS3+ laspistols REALLY worth the 1ppm increase per model and the loss of the squig hound rule the standard runty gets? No. No it is not.
office_waaagh wrote: I assume specialist mobs will be faq'd to let them keep their CLAN keyword, and just not benefit from the kultur, I can't think of any issues that would create if they just delete the second part of that sentence.
It's probably good they're restricted to one per detachment, being able to take something that doesn't benefit from your kultur and give it a different one specifically tailored to it is pretty strong - and presumably you can give a morkanaut or gorkanaut big krumpaz so it can actually benefit from a kultur in a SH aux detachment. Which is, you know, fine.
FAQ would definitely help, personally I don't think the abilities given are strong enough to warrant losing clan benefits though (i.e. big krumpaz is no benefit to Goffs at all, sometimes no benefit to freebootas, and never a benefit if you stand next to a warboss).
Unfortunately, leaked images indicate aux detachments can't use specialisms, so while a nice idea I don't think a lone 'naut can do that.
So the only way you can use the naut kustom jobs is if you do a full super heavy detach for 6 CP?
Ouch, that's unfortunate, I hadn't seen that.
Still, there are plenty of uses - taking flyboyz for a plane in a goff detachment, or big krumpas on a bad moon meganobz unit, boom boyz on a goff or snakebite gunwagon, and so on. Basically swap out the CLAN on a unit that doesn't benefit from it for something better. That's actually pretty good when you do want it.
Also, once it gets faq'd so trukk boyz can actually ride in their trukk, can we just appreciate how bananas a unit of nobz rocketing across the table and charging something from 30"+ away is going to be?
Still, there are plenty of uses - taking flyboyz for a plane in a goff detachment, or big krumpas on a bad moon meganobz unit, boom boyz on a goff or snakebite gunwagon, and so on. Basically swap out the CLAN on a unit that doesn't benefit from it for something better. That's actually pretty good when you do want it.
Fortunately, this seems to be the ONE THING they didnt screw up with subkultures.
The tellyporta and hit'm harder strats are not <clan> locked. Which si the vast majority of the problems around subkultures.
office_waaagh wrote: I assume specialist mobs will be faq'd to let them keep their CLAN keyword, and just not benefit from the kultur, I can't think of any issues that would create if they just delete the second part of that sentence.
It's probably good they're restricted to one per detachment, being able to take something that doesn't benefit from your kultur and give it a different one specifically tailored to it is pretty strong - and presumably you can give a morkanaut or gorkanaut big krumpaz so it can actually benefit from a kultur in a SH aux detachment. Which is, you know, fine.
FAQ would definitely help, personally I don't think the abilities given are strong enough to warrant losing clan benefits though (i.e. big krumpaz is no benefit to Goffs at all, sometimes no benefit to freebootas, and never a benefit if you stand next to a warboss).
Unfortunately, leaked images indicate aux detachments can't use specialisms, so while a nice idea I don't think a lone 'naut can do that.
So the only way you can use the naut kustom jobs is if you do a full super heavy detach for 6 CP?
Ouch, that's unfortunate, I hadn't seen that.
Still, there are plenty of uses - taking flyboyz for a plane in a goff detachment, or big krumpas on a bad moon meganobz unit, boom boyz on a goff or snakebite gunwagon, and so on. Basically swap out the CLAN on a unit that doesn't benefit from it for something better. That's actually pretty good when you do want it.
Also, once it gets faq'd so trukk boyz can actually ride in their trukk, can we just appreciate how bananas a unit of nobz rocketing across the table and charging something from 30"+ away is going to be?
Yeah, I'm already hyped to get to use my absolutely excessive number of nobz modeled with big choppas again.
They're just such ding dang cool ass models! I can't help it! I bet I can probably field a whole unit of 10.
it is kind of funny to me that GW decided to make "Speedwaaagh" a separate rule, and in order to actually make good use and get good mileage out of Evil Sunz you have to just...totally disregard it and use a normal Waaagh.
Keeping it real for a minute on vanilla orks versus snaggas
You could easily fill three troop slots with snaggas in trucks for 540 points.
Then Mozrog for the requisite warboss with 170.
In a 1500 point list you could then easily fit 3 units of 6 beasthog riders for 450 points.
That would be 54 T6 4+/6++ wounds.
Each model would have 5 S6 2 damage attacks. Each unit would have 30 of those attacks. All with 10" movement speed. You could cast Waaagh with this blob of squig riders and hit the opponent more or less on the same turn after advancing.
You would still have 340 points left over for whatever else you want. Kill rigs, whatever you wanted. You could even delete all three trukks and replace them with kill rigs, with or without weirdboys.
Even without clan rules this is nutty.
Vanilla orks seem pretty good but I just don't see snaggas not being better in all seriousness. Although you'd probably have to take out a loan to field that many squig riders.
I still can't get over how cheap squig riders are or how they all get damage 2 for free. It costs 5 points to get damage 2 on infantry models and then you have to pay transport tax.
Beast snaggas are a paradigm shift. The snagga boys themselves are gits, the squigs are the power play.
yeah, squighog boyz seem at least 10pts undercosted...you nearly get 2 of them for the cost of 1 thunderwolf Cavalry, which has slightly better defensive stats with W4 and Sv3+ but is all entirely D1...
The main downside I can see with them is that they are a turn 2 tempo unit and they are fairly easy to kill a lot of especially if you use Morale to your advantage. If you kill 4/6 you're pretty likely to get an extra one gone just as a bonus and possibly the last one too.
I don't know how great they'll be into the current tournament meta, drukhari I think would be drooling at the prospect of someone handing them a big wall of T6 Sv4+ wounds in super easy turn 1 charge range and admech with skitarii autowounds and tons of high volume S4 AP-1 firepower would just rip them to bits, but they seem hugely undercosted.
Squighog riders plus a beefed up kill rig just kind of screams to me "I WANT TO LOSE TO ADMECH SOOOOOOO BAAAAAAD!"
Single-model KMBs, single-model buggies, all very spicy, all very good, and you definitely want those 2 units of trukk boyz, 2 WARBOSS models, etc.
I hardly see the benefit of playing 2 WARBOSSES, considering the nerfed BrutalButKunning, "nerfed" KILLA KLAW and the loss of Biggest Warboss they simply aren't that good at punching.
WHAAGH! is now global and you can only declare one anyway, most "tactical" traits you can just drop onto support characters with the Big Boss stratagem so if you want the +1 to hit aura you just drop 70 for a WHAAGH! banner and then give him some support trait.
The only possible reason would be to have some special charachter warboss together with a generic one to use the relics other than that I'd rather bring more toys in the same detachment.
Is brutal but kunning really nerfed? It's more dangerous against targets with an invuln save than it was before.
Brutal but kunning is good but consider what you lost.
There isn't a beatstick model that we know of so far that can even take DKK, which is our damage 3 relic....
And BBK used to give you +1 damage on charge, with full rerolls.
So you've gone from da biggest boss with 5 2+, 2+ rerolls at ap3 with damage 4 to.....
Well, a S9 Ap-3 damage 2 Choppa. Great.
Anyone trying to equate the two seems to be incapable of reading. Megaboss with huge Choppa (or even the killchoppa) puts out nowhere near as much potential damage on high value targets.
Arguably, if you could get a hurrdurr beastboss with the +2 damage strategem you might be able to put out the same kind of hurt for one turn. But I don't see a way to get the same damage output with either a vanilla boss or a megaboss.
Also, -1 damage or transhuman are going to considerably neuter the output.
We've gained a lot more durability with the megaboss in exchange with 7W, 2+/5++ and several intriguing relics like 4++/half damage and a warlord trait that gives -1 to wound.
Anyway, Mozrog has all those things and is cheap with 9 damage 3 attacks and -1 to damage. If you're being serious you would just use him and forget about infantry bosses.
An interesting combo I thought of. With da jump being a much more risky move w/ the nerf to ere we go, you can give a Trukk Boyz warboss the follow me ladz trait, shoot him up the board, da jump a unit next to him, and charge with the warboss first giving the da jumped unit an 8" charge.
Edit: But then your warlord is likely dead in round 2 so you better have another warboss (in another detachment) for WAAGH. Sigh.
TedNugent wrote: Keeping it real for a minute on vanilla orks versus snaggas
You could easily fill three troop slots with snaggas in trucks for 540 points.
Then Mozrog for the requisite warboss with 170.
In a 1500 point list you could then easily fit 3 units of 6 beasthog riders for 450 points.
That would be 54 T6 4+/6++ wounds.
Each model would have 5 S6 2 damage attacks. Each unit would have 30 of those attacks. All with 10" movement speed. You could cast Waaagh with this blob of squig riders and hit the opponent more or less on the same turn after advancing.
You would still have 340 points left over for whatever else you want. Kill rigs, whatever you wanted. You could even delete all three trukks and replace them with kill rigs, with or without weirdboys.
Even without clan rules this is nutty.
Vanilla orks seem pretty good but I just don't see snaggas not being better in all seriousness. Although you'd probably have to take out a loan to field that many squig riders.
I still can't get over how cheap squig riders are or how they all get damage 2 for free. It costs 5 points to get damage 2 on infantry models and then you have to pay transport tax.
Beast snaggas are a paradigm shift. The snagga boys themselves are gits, the squigs are the power play.
Snagga boyz are pretty fair compared to normal boyz, I think - I mathed it out and they're about what you'd expect for 2 more points. They really benefit from Goff kultur giving +1 S on the charge though against a lot of things, since going up to S6 lets them wound T3 on 2's. Conversely, Goff boyz will significantly beat beast snagga boyz from any other klan in damage output against all infantry opponents (on the charge at least).
Squighog boyz are going to be amazing, and I'm excited to try them out - the trouble with them is going to be the usual, though. There won't be *that* many of them, and most opponents will have enough mid-tier shooting to deal with them if they focus on them. I think they compare reasonably to warbikers for the same points in a different role.
TedNugent wrote: Brutal but kunning is good but consider what you lost.
There isn't a beatstick model that we know of so far that can even take DKK, which is our damage 3 relic....
And BBK used to give you +1 damage on charge, with full rerolls.
So you've gone from da biggest boss with 5 2+, 2+ rerolls at ap3 with damage 4 to.....
Well, a S9 Ap-3 damage 2 Choppa. Great.
Anyone trying to equate the two seems to be incapable of reading. Megaboss with huge Choppa (or even the killchoppa) puts out nowhere near as much potential damage on high value targets.
Arguably, if you could get a hurrdurr beastboss with the +2 damage strategem you might be able to put out the same kind of hurt for one turn. But I don't see a way to get the same damage output with either a vanilla boss or a megaboss.
No offense but you're going off on tangents here, the question wasn't about "has the Killa klaw combo really been nerfed", but your assessment that Brutal But Kunnin' has been nerfed, specifically.
Yes, we lost the damage bonus. But we gained pseudo-reroll to wound and against successful saves. That last one in particular is valuable, because it makes combats with units packing a 4++ (there's a lot of them) far less swingy than an extra point of damage ever did. I think it's been buffed.
Now as to your tangent of, "do we have worse tools (read CC beatsticks)" to take advantage of new BBK, I'd also argue that yes we do. BBK is not married to DKK (though they are like chocolate and peanut butter to be sure). Personally I'd say, let's see what the FW compendium errata has to say about bikerboss loadouts. If he still has a power klaw, then we are 100% golden to continue a reign of terror with that model, maybe not a knight-killing one but anything with 15 wounds or less collectively is in our threat range.
I think BBK will still work well on the likes of the Squigboss (you'll likely be converting some failed to wound chomps into MW), and if the silliness of the Kill Rig stands, 14 attacks all benefiting from BBK is fairly ridiculous as well. We don't have a dead-cheap option that looks good, I agree, but I think we have some good tools for it.
Yup. So, Trukkboyz is nonfunctional. Since you only upgrade a Warboss, Nobz, or Boyz unit and not the Trukk itself, only that unit replaces it's <clan> with <Trukkboyz>, leaving the Trukk with the original <clan> and restricted to only transporting <clan> infantry. They can't get in it.
i mean, the FW model that they sell literally only has a power klaw as far as I know...I'd be pretty shocked if they took that away (just as id be pretty shocked if they took power klaws away from the standard WB...who has a power klaw in the only plastic model they sell...)
personally I like BBK better on the models that are less likely to get to the inflict damage step - say, a beast choppa beastboss, or a deffkillas snagga claw. but hey let me put on my 'Um Ackshually Bro' glases for a second:
If the Squigosaur's jaws roll a 6 and inflict 3 mortal wounds, they *TECHNICALLY* do not get to the Inflict Damage step, as the attack sequence ends, so BBK would let you make another bonus attack with the model's Beastchoppa.
Making this combo happen would, of course, instantly win you the game every time as your opponent would instantly flip the table and quit.
Hes a useless glorified runtherd, and grots have already been super gutted this edition.
Yeah, I don't know. The wild thing is, I run an all-grot army list, and I have zero use for zogrod. whatever unit of grots I choose to buff, that's just gonna be the one my opponent targets instantly.
They can't all be winners I guess! Never forget folks: GW always makes every new release OP so that people will buy them!
Was just going to post. I like them. 4 VP for killing 2 units in melee is achievable as is camping two 11+ Ork mobz in the home half for 3 VP per turn.
If you play with a killa kan horde then "stomp 'em good" should be easy to score since their kills should be counted towards the score but their deaths are disregarded. Obviously most likely not a fantastic tactic anyways but funny.
I'm personally not sold on these secondaries but that might be because I'll pretty much never use an 11+ model unit, let alone several of them.
The warlord specific secondary is really cool but might be too easy to screen out/hunt down and thereby robbing you of a bunch of VP?
And objectives that are forcing you to do an action where no enemy units are nearby I've been burned by too many times before, I'm sure people can get it to work but again, your opponent has a bunch of agency in screwing that one up for you..
GW: "We've introduced a bunch of rules that make big mobs of boyz unplayable."
Also GW: "The new secondaries hugely benefit big mobs of boyz!"
It really is like they had 3 teams designing different parts of the codex and they didn't communicate with each other. These secondaries are absolute trash. I will never take a single one of these over the GT pack secondaries.
Stomp 'em good - Not a good choice if running MSUs
Get da Good Bitz - Would be a take if it was end of turn. End of command phase is too easy to counter.
Da biggest and da best - Warlord is usually dead shortly after making it to combat. It would be hard to score more than 3-5 points w/ this.
Green tide - GW gives us a horde orks secondary in the same codex that they effectively phased out horde orks with rules nerfs.
BDBurrow wrote: GW: "We've introduced a bunch of rules that make big mobs of boyz unplayable."
Also GW: "The new secondaries hugely benefit big mobs of boyz!"
It really is like they had 3 teams designing different parts of the codex and they didn't communicate with each other. These secondaries are absolute trash. I will never take a single one of these over the GT pack secondaries.
Stomp 'em good - Not a good choice if running MSUs
Get da Good Bitz - Would be a take if it was end of turn. End of command phase is too easy to counter.
Da biggest and da best - Warlord is usually dead shortly after making it to combat. It would be hard to score more than 3-5 points w/ this.
Green tide - GW gives us a horde orks secondary in the same codex that they effectively phased out horde orks with rules nerfs.
I'm just in awe at how bad this codex is.
It does feel designed by committee and the committee had no clue what to do with orks.
Every time I try and come up with a fun list there is some clause or rule that just makes it awkward of annoying.
We are pretty much going to be locked into 3 detachments of some sort.
Thanks for reposting the links! I must have been blind...
Lots of weird thoughts about how to Orks now. No idea how bad my next list will be, not very good probably..
Was jokingly thinking about loads of grots before I knew they have a save of +7 now. Kinda sucks for 5 PPM...
I'm thinking about an MSU boys list for sure now with just one or two large mobs. Just so much to unpack still. I think Storm boys are looking good and had been planning a list featuring them. I have 60 I'd like to plop on to the table. I can still field my Warboss so I'm happy about that.
Tempted to try the Boss Bunkas on tellyporta pad loaded with burnas or shoora boys, maybe lootas and just see what happens. Sounds like a lot of Cp to throw that way.
Have to stack that with Kommandos to make sure I have some possible landing spots, don't want to be screened out of a drop zone.
Hes a useless glorified runtherd, and grots have already been super gutted this edition.
Yeah, I don't know. The wild thing is, I run an all-grot army list, and I have zero use for zogrod. whatever unit of grots I choose to buff, that's just gonna be the one my opponent targets instantly.
They can't all be winners I guess! Never forget folks: GW always makes every new release OP so that people will buy them!
Runtherds have also been completely nerfed. they cant even auto pass morale for grots anymore with the squighounds. Given that grots suffers heavily from morale now, and our mek gunz also come in units so morale is now a thing, they could at least help with dealing with morale.
That runtherds have an aura that combats the cowardice ability of grots as the only thing is just sad..
Engage in all fronts will be so easy to do with our greatly improved kommandos and stormboyz, I really don’t see any other battlefield supremacy objective ever making the cut. Other than green tide, the rest of these secondaries are total trash (and even green tide ain’t so great).
Anyway secondaries are really 9th éditions weak point
I am pretty disappointed that our secondaries are pretty much non-starters for the most part. I was hoping some of the nuance of this new book would come with the objectives at some level, but again there seems to be a real disconnect for this book when it comes to how things come together. I'm not sure if its because the book was rushed or if the playtesters/rulewriters were all on different pages but it feels like the codex really feels slapped together.
So, Kommandos are actually good. They basically get to be 9" away from enemy models, 6" movement speed, +2 to armor save from cover, +1 to wound within terrain feature, they get power klaws for 5 points on the nob, plus a breacha ram for 5 points and bomb squigs for 5 points.
If you're going to run boy equivalents on foot, why not use these guys after you get your 3 troops.
And Snikrot gives them +1 to hit. And Snikrot ain't too bad either with his 5++, -2 AP and 2 damage attacks.
I don't really think the Blood Axe strategem synergizes very well with them but they get a ton of odds and ends as it is. I think it'd be kind of neat to run them as Blood Axes with Snikrot, but they're kinda good regardless. With Goffs they would pack a serious punch with the +1 to wound in terrain. The cheaper Power Klaw means they really don't cost much more than Boys either, at only 5 points more per kitted mob.
Advantage of grots is the same as always, they can complete actions, they're non-trivial to remove, and everything your opponent puts into killing them is not going to killing your boyz. My experience has been that making your opponent choose between killing the units that are scoring points and the ones that are going to murder him next turn is really useful, so I don't see myself not throwing a couple of ten-strong grot mobs into my first few lists at least.
If "trukk boyz" swap their key word for "trukk boyz" then how will they get into a trukk which doesn't change its keyword when a trukk says it can only take freebootas and <clan> infantry?
they cant, thats the fundamental issue with all subkultures. Suddenly they dont get auras, most strats, command buffs, or transport access.
Most of them are worthless for that fact and trukkboyz is literally impossible to use until they fix that crap.
TedNugent wrote: So, Kommandos are actually good. They basically get to be 9" away from enemy models, 6" movement speed, +2 to armor save from cover, +1 to wound within terrain feature, they get power klaws for 5 points on the nob, plus a breacha ram for 5 points and bomb squigs for 5 points.
Have you every played with kommandos recently? The fact they can me 9” away from enemy before turn one means, they are dead on the end of turn one. They die whenever anything looks at them and they hit like a wet noodles. Good for killing guardsman, that is all. They had only 2 advetages. They were the cheapest obsec and free deepstrike, so you was able to drop them somewhere, where nobody is, hide there and score for enage/scramblers/linebreaker and win the contest “who has more cheap bodies on objective in the far corner”. All gone. Only thing you can do with them now is put them in front of some fast non-flying CC focused dudes to deny them the Alpha strike. Like…. Some tyranids without the wings… some rare deamosn without the wings…. is there something else? The most of I want to block in his deploy has a wings or can walk over infantry.
Sorry I' m so rude, but i ' ve finaly read throw the leaked rules and I 'm very disappointed. So you get the punch instead of GW, sorry mate
Generaly - it' s super boring. Mostly wasted paper. Just very few strategems/traits whatever actualy do anything worth to even read. Half of them are cripled old abilities and the rest just new junk. Useless secondaries. Same weapons has different profiles. No connection to FW units. Mehh….
KMB Dread can douple its shooting ability. One Dread. Have to be in separate unit alone. And it seems to be badly written so the FAQ will limit it to one weapon I guess.
Someone called it hot garbage. No. It ' s very cold garbage.
They try to balance the impotence of abilities by sale of point costs and some boost in shots on. Scrapjet is obvious winner in this contest with masive sale, 50% more shots and stacking of attacks in CC and Spiked Ram. Does it work? No idea. I can' t say. It is just boring. BOOORRIIIING. It' s just in style “take the units on table, use command reroll and this two abilities and do it all the time again and again…” just roling dices….
All dramatic moves likes teleoporting dragstas, or doublecharge with vehicles, epicly fighting twice dying warbosses, returning boyz like unstopable green tide, kamikadze yets…. Gone. Just +/- 1 on something, mostly irelevant like save in the the meta with AP-2 everywhere.
Old “boring” Ramming Speed looks like a bright star now.
To be fare, I skipped all Snagga stuff, because I 'm not interested in AOS. So maybe there is something interesting….
Or did I missed something?
And Dakkadakka changed my rank from Leadfooted Trukkdriver to Smoking Skorcha… this is a really a bloody evening…
TedNugent wrote: So, Kommandos are actually good. They basically get to be 9" away from enemy models, 6" movement speed, +2 to armor save from cover, +1 to wound within terrain feature, they get power klaws for 5 points on the nob, plus a breacha ram for 5 points and bomb squigs for 5 points.
Have you every played with kommandos recently? The fact they can me 9” away from enemy before turn one means, they are dead on the end of turn one. They die whenever anything looks at them and they hit like a wet noodles. Good for killing guardsman, that is all. They had only 2 advetages. They were the cheapest obsec and free deepstrike, so you was able to drop them somewhere, where nobody is, hide there and score for enage/scramblers/linebreaker and win the contest “who has more cheap bodies on objective in the far corner”. All gone. Only thing you can do with them now is put them in front of some fast non-flying CC focused dudes to deny them the Alpha strike. Like…. Some tyranids without the wings… some rare deamosn without the wings…. is there something else? The most of I want to block in his deploy has a wings or can walk over infantry.
Sorry I' m so rude, but i ' ve finaly read throw the leaked rules and I 'm very disappointed. So you get the punch instead of GW, sorry mate
Generaly - it' s super boring. Mostly wasted paper. Just very few strategems/traits whatever actualy do anything worth to even read. Half of them are cripled old abilities and the rest just new junk. Useless secondaries. Same weapons has different profiles. No connection to FW units. Mehh….
KMB Dread can douple its shooting ability. One Dread. Have to be in separate unit alone. And it seems to be badly written so the FAQ will limit it to one weapon I guess.
Someone called it hot garbage. No. It ' s very cold garbage.
They try to balance the impotence of abilities by sale of point costs and some boost in shots on. Scrapjet is obvious winner in this contest with masive sale, 50% more shots and stacking of attacks in CC and Spiked Ram. Does it work? No idea. I can' t say. It is just boring. BOOORRIIIING. It' s just in style “take the units on table, use command reroll and this two abilities and do it all the time again and again…” just roling dices….
To be fare, I skipped all Snagga stuff, because I 'm not interested in AOS. So maybe there is something interesting….
Or did I missed something?
Echo this 100% the codex is an absolute train wreck.
Just watching "new" orks get absolutley destroyed by the 8th edition T'au codex on art of war. Its not even a game.
office_waaagh wrote: Advantage of grots is the same as always, they can complete actions, they're non-trivial to remove, and everything your opponent puts into killing them is not going to killing your boyz. My experience has been that making your opponent choose between killing the units that are scoring points and the ones that are going to murder him next turn is really useful, so I don't see myself not throwing a couple of ten-strong grot mobs into my first few lists at least.
Agree. 2 x 11+ Grotz hiding in the backfield scores both Octarius and Green Tide at the same time. Add a Stormboy mob for more Octarius or go BA and put some cheap infantry into Reserve after deploy and pop them out Turn 3. Little effort compared to Engage which gives 3VP if you are in every quarter and keeps feeding the opponent kill VP while weakening your own army.
Hes a useless glorified runtherd, and grots have already been super gutted this edition.
Yeah, I don't know. The wild thing is, I run an all-grot army list, and I have zero use for zogrod. whatever unit of grots I choose to buff, that's just gonna be the one my opponent targets instantly.
They can't all be winners I guess! Never forget folks: GW always makes every new release OP so that people will buy them!
Runtherds have also been completely nerfed. they cant even auto pass morale for grots anymore with the squighounds. Given that grots suffers heavily from morale now, and our mek gunz also come in units so morale is now a thing, they could at least help with dealing with morale.
That runtherds have an aura that combats the cowardice ability of grots as the only thing is just sad..
makari shares his ld with all Goff grots and zodgrod can make any grot unit specials
I kinda like 12in burna on kommandos that +1 to wound helps them
wait wtf their extra cover rule says "receives benefit of cover, add 2 to their save" instead of "when receiving benefit of cover add 2 instead of 1 to their save"
Waaaagh and Speedwaaahg are another example. Make an ork rule about one masive warboss warcry per game and do not make mandatory to really warcry loudly around the table and make mandatory for all other ork players in the room to repat the warcry…. I call it epicly lost opportunity.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: Kommandos...paper thin? Did you miss that they're 10pt t5 3+sv models if you give them light cover maybe?
Well, T5 is more important improving their surrviability I guess, but your are right, new kommandos are different than the old kommandos, but that is not a point. If you put them 9” in front of any army before T1 their are dead until the end of the turn anyway
TedNugent wrote: So, Kommandos are actually good. They basically get to be 9" away from enemy models, 6" movement speed, +2 to armor save from cover, +1 to wound within terrain feature, they get power klaws for 5 points on the nob, plus a breacha ram for 5 points and bomb squigs for 5 points.
If you're going to run boy equivalents on foot, why not use these guys after you get your 3 troops.
And Snikrot gives them +1 to hit. And Snikrot ain't too bad either with his 5++, -2 AP and 2 damage attacks.
I don't really think the Blood Axe strategem synergizes very well with them but they get a ton of odds and ends as it is. I think it'd be kind of neat to run them as Blood Axes with Snikrot, but they're kinda good regardless. With Goffs they would pack a serious punch with the +1 to wound in terrain. The cheaper Power Klaw means they really don't cost much more than Boys either, at only 5 points more per kitted mob.
more or less any given ork HQ at this point gives someone +1 to hit.
office_waaagh wrote: Advantage of grots is the same as always, they can complete actions, they're non-trivial to remove, and everything your opponent puts into killing them is not going to killing your boyz. My experience has been that making your opponent choose between killing the units that are scoring points and the ones that are going to murder him next turn is really useful, so I don't see myself not throwing a couple of ten-strong grot mobs into my first few lists at least.
Agree. 2 x 11+ Grotz hiding in the backfield scores both Octarius and Green Tide at the same time. Add a Stormboy mob for more Octarius or go BA and put some cheap infantry into Reserve after deploy and pop them out Turn 3. Little effort compared to Engage which gives 3VP if you are in every quarter and keeps feeding the opponent kill VP while weakening your own army.
Green tide secondary mission only works with ork keyword from what I understand when reading it, so no green tiding with grots. What is everyone s interpretation on this?
Oh and anyone who thinks kommandos are trash simply can’t be a very competitive player. If you think they are just OK I can roll with that (you will change your mind eventually is what I think, unitil they get nerfed anyway), but trash… with current tables filled with L shaped LOS blocking terrain (in WTC anyway) they will rule ! Perhaps snakebite would be good to help them survive turn one. Initially I was thinking Goff for the impact.
Oh and the distraction grot gives then a +1 to wound once per game “even without terrain”. Perhaps not everyone who thinks kommandos are trash had that info. To me kommandos feel pushed, you can tell they have new models on the way for them…
office_waaagh wrote: Advantage of grots is the same as always, they can complete actions, they're non-trivial to remove, and everything your opponent puts into killing them is not going to killing your boyz. My experience has been that making your opponent choose between killing the units that are scoring points and the ones that are going to murder him next turn is really useful, so I don't see myself not throwing a couple of ten-strong grot mobs into my first few lists at least.
Agree. 2 x 11+ Grotz hiding in the backfield scores both Octarius and Green Tide at the same time. Add a Stormboy mob for more Octarius or go BA and put some cheap infantry into Reserve after deploy and pop them out Turn 3. Little effort compared to Engage which gives 3VP if you are in every quarter and keeps feeding the opponent kill VP while weakening your own army.
Green tide secondary mission only works with ork keyword from what I understand when reading it, so no green tiding with grots. What is everyone s interpretation on this?
Gretchin have the orks keyword.
Is anyone keeping a list of all the broken crap in this codex to send to the FAQ team?
Ok for that keyword thing, so green tide could work, but we would need to keep two 11-15 grot mobs out of harms way for the whole game. Engage on all fronts on the other hand, with all the stuff we have that wants to go straight to our opponents face… I guess green tide and banners would allow us to play cagey…
Gretchin do not get kultures, it says under the CLAN KULTURES rule that "All ork <clan> units (other than grechin)..."
Also i dont know where people are getting this "gretchin arent obsec" thing from. Theres nothing on their datasheet about it and obsec for troops is a core rule not a codex rule.
Vineheart01 wrote: Gretchin do not get kultures, it says under the CLAN KULTURES rule that "All ork <clan> units (other than grechin)..."
Also i dont know where people are getting this "gretchin arent obsec" thing from. Theres nothing on their datasheet about it and obsec for troops is a core rule not a codex rule.
"Troops units (excluding Gretchin) ... get the objective secured ability."
Big mek in MA w/ KFF is 115 pts vs 85 for the standard mek, and you get a 2+ save, a built in KMB/kombi weapon, and a built in power klaw. He actually might be a take.
Rokkit kans are 55 pts, don't get kultur, and can't get kustom jobs unless you run a mekshop. Not as good as we thought.
Deff dreads can only take a kustom job if you run a single dread. Not as good as we thought. Their preferred loadout is probably 1 full melee, 2 w/ 3 skorchas and 1 klaw in a tellyporta. Pretty much identical to previous codex just a little cheaper and no cool stratagem for waxing infantry.
Wtf is even the point of gretchin existing? They cost the same as stuff that doesnt get slapped left and right with restrictions but are not even half as useful as anything similar to them. sometimes i swear GW never thinks people buy models that arent brand brand new. The only thing people dont buy are the totally worthless units or CrapCast because they are terrible models.
You cant even give Kanz the Boomboyz subkulture, they are literally the only blast-toting unit (outside of FW) that is denied it. Like wtf....
Wtf is even the point of gretchin existing? They cost the same as stuff that doesnt get slapped left and right with restrictions but are not even half as useful as anything similar to them.
sometimes i swear GW never thinks people buy models that arent brand brand new. The only thing people dont buy are the totally worthless units or CrapCast because they are terrible models.
Gretchin got the cultist treatment in effect. They really didn't like seeing Grots being the cornerstone of filling out detachments back in 8th ed like how Cultists did for CSM. So when CSM updates start coming around, they made sure to slap cultists with endless rounds of nerfs and only recently have they succeeded in finally curbing their usage in CSM lists (mainly because soup still exists for Chaos). I feel like for us, it wasn't enough that they shot up to 5ppm, our book was probably shortly after the core rulebook released and that meant there weren't enough stats in tournies (thanks COVID) for them to realize most players had already stopped taking grots and thus took extra measures to ensure grots were persona non grata in our own codex.
Extremely dumb and it just goes to show how little GW care about internal balance in our codex.
issue is gretchin have other units than just grot squads, so its shafting multiple units. Also cultists arent denied literally every single rule their army has. Grots get nothing, not even a subkulture anymore. Why they dont just flatout cut them from the codex is beyond me since surely it'd be easier than systematically removing every single thing they could possibly boost themselves with. Grot squads, the only troop in the game w/o obsec. Cause that makes sense. Still cost the same as a guardsmen though.
Vineheart01 wrote: issue is gretchin have other units than just grot squads, so its shafting multiple units.
Also cultists arent denied literally every single rule their army has. Grots get nothing, not even a subkulture anymore.
Why they dont just flatout cut them from the codex is beyond me since surely it'd be easier than systematically removing every single thing they could possibly boost themselves with.
I mean if I learned anything from GW, they throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to nerfs. I bet you that if cultists had any real representation in the CSM beyond the troops choice that GW would have destroyed those units as well. I guess we could count the loss of the Renegades and Heretics from FW as their equivalent in terms of treatment?
Clearly somebody at GWHQ is traumatized from a Grot Mobz list that pounded their army with Mek Gunz. That or as usual, the lack of Ork advocates/players in GW design team leads to this kind of mess.
Vineheart01 wrote: issue is gretchin have other units than just grot squads, so its shafting multiple units.
Also cultists arent denied literally every single rule their army has. Grots get nothing, not even a subkulture anymore.
Why they dont just flatout cut them from the codex is beyond me since surely it'd be easier than systematically removing every single thing they could possibly boost themselves with.
Grot squads, the only troop in the game w/o obsec. Cause that makes sense.
Still cost the same as a guardsmen though.
But they do get subkultur! It gives them their obsec ability back in exchange for DEBUFFING any nearby friendly units with a -1 to hit in ranged. /sarcasm
Vineheart01 wrote: issue is gretchin have other units than just grot squads, so its shafting multiple units.
Also cultists arent denied literally every single rule their army has. Grots get nothing, not even a subkulture anymore.
Why they dont just flatout cut them from the codex is beyond me since surely it'd be easier than systematically removing every single thing they could possibly boost themselves with.
Grot squads, the only troop in the game w/o obsec. Cause that makes sense.
Still cost the same as a guardsmen though.
But they do get subkultur! It gives them their obsec ability back in exchange for DEBUFFING any nearby friendly units with a -1 to hit in ranged. /sarcasm
Except runtherds, can't forget that. Runtherds are the new meta, they're so OP they're immune to grot stank
That is a shame but at least now you can freely split fire. And it's cheap enough that you might squeeze 'em into lists, whereas they were just a bit too pricey before..
On an unrelated note, I do find it funny that Evil Sunz has a relic which you can place onto the Kill Rig. I'm certain the youtube people will find out about that in like 24hrs and start moaning after a short reprieve when it seemed like most relics were inaccessible
Edit: Power stabba confirmed to be 5points. I swear to gork&mork GW if you haven't updated the statline of that weapon I'll spazz out.
well, take some snakebite gretchin, so they can only be wounded on 4's
camp them on objectives... wait no obsec...
use them to screen some important backfield unit.... oh wait.. we dont have one anymore
put them infront of a big blob of... oh wait...
well, just put them in the front of whatever infantry unit benefits most... and let them grotshield
on the plus side... scrapjet and dragsta got a 20/25 points cut, but cant be spammed due to beeing a unit now and lost their amazing kustom jobs. Still good in a outrider detachment.
seems to me 120 points for a dakkajet with 18shots at 36" or 36shots at 18", IF he retains the strafing run... thats AMAZING
dead shiny shoota, if it can be wielded by a mek seems also great.
everything snagga is hardcore... just look at the huntarig. it outshines the bonebreaker BY FAR.
i think i will convert my scratch build squiggoth to be one... good thing i magnetized my howdah
kommandoz seem quiet good for some sneaky shenenigans
stormboyz are the new kommandoz
kustom jobs are CRAP
EVERY SINGLE ONE OF EM
specialized units are a big let down... their buffs just arent really worth it. will sill see some usage me thinks for the odd mob that doesnt fit the rest of the army
evil sunz not beeing able to interact with dakka guns is just... WOW
speaking of dakka... so yes it is a cheap-o-version of rapid fire... urgh
speaking of urgh... thats how i think about this codex... its just such a let down. maybe its because the last two dexes where DE and Admech... idk.
will be still good for sure, we orks will tinker out something. we are used to fight with scrap.
however I AM DISGUSTED ON HOW OBVIOUSLY GOOD THE NEW STUFF IS AND HOW MUCH OF THE OLD WORKINGS WERE RENDERED USLESS JUST BECAUSE THEY WOULD DIMINISH THE NEW STUFF and because of some butthurt sm players that got GW's ear
EDIT:
sprap all of the above.. just readthat dakkajet lost strafing run and gretchins dont get kultures... feth YOU GW. now i am mad.
Killrig is a lie.
You must pick the trait of more dmg and the vehicle relic.
Hes not Mortarion, hes a 3+ 6++ vehicle who will just be annihilated turn1 by ever decent army of the game.
Thats why it costs 190p and not 300p. Hes not a telemon, and if you play him he will die turn1 due to lasschikens.
Grots no kultures, Killa Kans were wrong, they cost 55p with rokkits.
I think we are middle tier, we are not tanky and T5 costed us too much resources and mechanisms.
I think GW definitely overvalued some of the stat changes we got and overcorrected in the strats and bespoke rules department. We're on Necron esque level from what I can tell, not sure if we're exactly on par but we sure as hell ain't no DE or Admech.
Keramory wrote: Feel like the kommandos are missing some weapons on that image leak. Where's the sniper rifle?
I do love the multiple of every 10 have 1x. Get enough of them and not a single ork will be a plain jane!
It's not a sniper rifle, it's just a big shoota. Basically a Mek looked at a human sniper rifle, thought "dis fing is useful, shootin' umies from real far away", tried to loot/recreate it but along the way went "needs more dakka, an needs to be louda so da uvver umies get scared when dey's shot hur hur" until what he ended up with was just a big shoota with a scope on it.
They have a subkultur, which exists almost entirely to just give a unit of gretchin Obsec back.
Mixed feelings about BS5+ Dakkajet. First time since the kit was introduced that it won't hit on 4+. That being said, 120 points yippee, I can definitely make room for that.
Kebabcito wrote: Killrig is a lie. You must pick the trait of more dmg and the vehicle relic. Hes not Mortarion, hes a 3+ 6++ vehicle who will just be annihilated turn1 by ever decent army of the game. Thats why it costs 190p and not 300p. Hes not a telemon, and if you play him he will die turn1 due to lasschikens.
put it in a tellyporter. ramming speed it, enjoy SIX s8 ap2 2D, FOUR s7 ap2 3D, FOUR s5 ap1 1D attacks hitting on 3's (2's if its a vehicle or monster) (oh and of course d3 mw)
EDIT: you could also top that of with +1 to wound for 2cp its costly... but what the hell are you spending cp's on anyway? most of the strats are crap 6 cp's and 160 points. or 175 if you want extra d3 mw for shokka hull.
Just read through the crusade rules. More of the same. Some of the agendas are decent. Kustom jobs are gained by spending "scrap points" that are gained in certain agendas, so you have to give up the experience you would have gained from other agendas to be able to purchase them. The relics are hot garbage. The SSAG is our heroic relic so you have to run a regular SAG mek until you get 30 experience.
Zagstrukk is a must take for stormboys
Not just because he is a Goff pk nob stormboy w an invul and rokkits
But he makes all storm boy units reduce thier casualties by half (rounded down). Basically ensuring you only ever loss 1 at max 2 stormboys to morale.
Snikrot is mainly bad for the bloodaxe lock. I’m not even upset about another reroll hit of 1 since he’s not a snagga, freebooter and will be with a bunch of kommandos far away from most warboss aura plus they have built in +1 to wound.
Regarding current info
If specialist subkultures are to be limited 1 type per detachment I rather it be limited to 1 datasheet NOT a unit and ONLY replaces your kulture not clan.
There is absolutely no reason Gretchin should be denied kultures. There was nothing we saw that was overpowered
Kustom job should be limit of 1 KJ per unit and buff the unit but the cost paid per model. It makes no sense to limit it to one model units..
If someone can put together all the issues for this codex in one long list it would be great to use for feedback when the codex drops. I’ll look at it more when I get mine
PiñaColada wrote: Well, the dakkajet is seemingly 100 points with 4 supa-shootas included and 20 extra if you want all 6 guns. That's hella spicy IMO
It is spicy, but you made the same mistake I did on the 1st glance - it's 100 for the unit and +10 per gun, so 160 with all 6. That's almost comparable shots to a kill tank (or practically the same in a speedwaagh) so still good.
EldarExarch wrote: I might be sitting out Orks in 9th edition if all this non-sense holds up. Will definitely wait for FAQ, etc. before making final judgement.
But I will certainly not be opening up my wallet for any of this as currently constructed. A real shame.
Please god GW don't do this to my Eldar too....
Specialist mobs seem largely garbage, and some of the key strats being removed hurts, but everything else does seem good - might take some time (and FAQs) to get used to but I think it isn't all doom and gloom.
PiñaColada wrote: Well, the dakkajet is seemingly 100 points with 4 supa-shootas included and 20 extra if you want all 6 guns. That's hella spicy IMO
It is spicy, but you made the same mistake I did on the 1st glance - it's 100 for the unit and +10 per gun, so 160 with all 6. That's almost comparable shots to a kill tank (or practically the same in a speedwaagh) so still good.
No its 120. The 9th codices list gear as free if not listed. Its "Additional supa shoota 10pt" not "Supa shoota 10pt" - the 4 it has innately are free. The datasheet even says "may take additional supa shootas" Not the same thing.
Completely unrelated by re cultists vs grots, the CSM codex isn't even out yet and it's entirely likely that cultists (and conscripts for that matter) may be barred from chapter tactics. GW seemingly wants your cheap chaff units to be purely cheap chaff.
PiñaColada wrote: Well, the dakkajet is seemingly 100 points with 4 supa-shootas included and 20 extra if you want all 6 guns. That's hella spicy IMO
It is spicy, but you made the same mistake I did on the 1st glance - it's 100 for the unit and +10 per gun, so 160 with all 6. That's almost comparable shots to a kill tank (or practically the same in a speedwaagh) so still good.
No its 120. The 9th codices list gear as free if not listed.
Its "Additional supa shoota 10pt" not "Supa shoota 10pt" - the 4 it has innately are free. The datasheet even says "may take additional supa shootas"
Not the same thing.
Oh my - flying kill tank spam is going to be hard to resist
At least warboss was confirmed to take PK for 100 points. Forced to take Kombi weapon.
Big mek in MA can also take a Killsaw and comes with a klaw. 30 points for KFF. Why. Why would you ever. They also misprinted 4" movement.
Grotsnik is junk.
Lots of incredibly obvious mistakes in this codex, it seems. Ripe for a FAQ. Also rules seem jumbled over each other, some of which seems intentional to ruin certain things.
No nob bikers, no warboss on bike. Not sure if Evil Suns clan rules going to print was intended as a joke.
They were absolutely brutal to Gretchin. They want you taking those snagga gits for sure I guess.
I just don't know if there's even a reason to take a big mek. Why bother. Even with traditional orks, they just seem awful.
Kill rig can only take one relic, beastgob.
gungo wrote: Is maddoc the only model missing rules?
Grotsnik is literally a painboy with a 2+ ws and a 5+ fnp on self.
TedNugent wrote: At least warboss was confirmed to take PK for 100 points. Forced to take Kombi weapon.
Big mek in MA can also take a Killsaw and comes with a klaw. 30 points for KFF. Why. Why would you ever. They also misprinted 4" movement.
Grotsnik is junk.
Lots of incredibly obvious mistakes in this codex, it seems. Ripe for a FAQ. Also rules seem jumbled over each other, some of which seems intentional to ruin certain things.
No nob bikers, no warboss on bike. Not sure if Evil Suns clan rules going to print was intended as a joke.
They were absolutely brutal to Gretchin. They want you taking those snagga gits for sure I guess.
I just don't know if there's even a reason to take a big mek. Why bother. Even with traditional orks, they just seem awful.
Kill rig can only take one relic, beastgob.
Yeah I am pretty disappointed with our HQ choices. More points saved for the few efficient units we have, I suppose.
PiñaColada wrote: Well, the dakkajet is seemingly 100 points with 4 supa-shootas included and 20 extra if you want all 6 guns. That's hella spicy IMO
It is spicy, but you made the same mistake I did on the 1st glance - it's 100 for the unit and +10 per gun, so 160 with all 6. That's almost comparable shots to a kill tank (or practically the same in a speedwaagh) so still good.
EldarExarch wrote: I might be sitting out Orks in 9th edition if all this non-sense holds up. Will definitely wait for FAQ, etc. before making final judgement.
But I will certainly not be opening up my wallet for any of this as currently constructed. A real shame.
Please god GW don't do this to my Eldar too....
Specialist mobs seem largely garbage, and some of the key strats being removed hurts, but everything else does seem good - might take some time (and FAQs) to get used to but I think it isn't all doom and gloom.
nope - the point cost is 100 base, and +10 for ADDITIONAL supa-shootas. it's 120 with six supa-shootas.
Vineheart01 wrote: pfft hey guys GW accidentally gave us a way to autokill a plane again.... assuming the rule if a plane cant move minimum range it dies is still around.
Stikka Kannon doesnt exclude aircraft. So long as you dont fire at it at max range it cant fly far enough to satisfy the minimum range.
i thought that too but this is covered under AIRCRAFT AND STRATEGIC RESERVES
"If army is Battle-forged, and an AIRCRAFT cannot make its minimum move, it is placed into Strategic Reserves."
So, let's start talking lists now that we well and truly have the full picture. All this is going to be at least partially based on my personal collection, obviously, what I've got available.
List #1: Let's make that Speedwaaagh Sing
Spoiler:
Freebootas Battalion
Deffkilla Wartrike 120 w/ Badskull Banner + 'Ard as Nails
Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun 110
Boyz x12 108
Big Shoota 5
Trukk 70
Boyz x12 108 (Trukk Boyz)
Power Klaw 10
Trukk 70
Gretchin x10 50
Kommandos x5 50
Kommandos x5 50
Kommandos x5 50
Warbikers x9 225
Power Klaw 10
Kustom Boosta-Blasta 80
BoomDakka Snazzwagon 90
Lootas x12 204
Trukk 70
Flash Gitz x10 270
Battlewagon 120
Dakkajet 100
+2 additional shootas 20
more Dakka KJ 15
The main goal of this list is to go as hard as possible into the wall of shooty nastiness from the Speedwaaagh. basically everything is equipped with some kind of dakka weapon, and basically the plan is just to blaze away with maximum firepower and make the most use possible out of the extra shots and AP out of the speedwaaagh.
Hybrid Speedwaagh List
Spoiler:
Evil Sunz Hybrid list
Evil Sunz Patrol
Deffkilla Wartrike 120 Warlord: Fasta Than Yous, Relic Rezmekka's Redder Paint
Dakkajet 100
+2 additional shootas 20
More Dakka KJ 15
Evil Sunz Outrider
HQ Warboss on Warbike 115 Extra Relic: The Killa Klaw
Boomdakka Snazzwagon 90
10x nobz 180 (trukk boyz)
7x Big Choppas
3x Power klaws
Trukk 70
4x Deffcoptas 200
1x Big Bomm 5
Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy 90
Nitro Squigs KJ 15
Megatrakk Skrapjet 90
Shokkjump Dragsta 85
10x Stormboyz 110
Power klaw 10
This list is designed to make use of some of the Evil Sunz specific goodies to create a hybrid melee/shooting turn 1 pressure list. The plan is to use a Speedwaagh turn 1, but use the Fasta than Yous WL trait to enable an advance+Charge (probably with Stormboyz). Couple that with 2 kommando squads and 2 trukk boyz squads that can threaten melee pretty easily turn 1, and I don't really necessarily need to have standard Waaagh capabilities, so i can be free to get the most out of those juicy extra shots and Ap from the speedwaaagh.
And finally...the charge of the light brigade. Soldier on, comrades!
btw.. quick math on the dakkajet:
8TH:
130 points 18 shots 36", BS 4+
-> 9 hits or 14,5 points per hit
9TH:
120points 24 shots 36", 36 shots 18", BS5+
-> 8 hits or 15 points per hit at 36", 12 hits or 10 points per hit at 18"
so got slightly worse at full distance, better at half distance, 10pts cheaper... well, in kontext of this codex that is phenomenal, in context of powercreep and the fact it wasnt really fielded before in 8th... It's not gud.
EDIT:
damn, i forgot dakkadakkadakka -.-
so it would be
8TH:
130 points 18 shots 36" range, BS 4+
-> 10,5 hits or 12 points per hit
so it basically got worse at full range and miniscule better at half range... oh my frikkin god, i cant handle this gak anymore....
Vineheart01 wrote: pfft hey guys GW accidentally gave us a way to autokill a plane again.... assuming the rule if a plane cant move minimum range it dies is still around.
Stikka Kannon doesnt exclude aircraft. So long as you dont fire at it at max range it cant fly far enough to satisfy the minimum range.
i thought that too but this is covered under AIRCRAFT AND STRATEGIC RESERVES
"If army is Battle-forged, and an AIRCRAFT cannot make its minimum move, it is placed into Strategic Reserves."
still kind of useful as i guess.... maybe?
wait really? i thought that was specifcially going off the board edge
Still useful as it would at least force their flyer to go away for a turn
Vineheart01 wrote: pfft hey guys GW accidentally gave us a way to autokill a plane again.... assuming the rule if a plane cant move minimum range it dies is still around.
Stikka Kannon doesnt exclude aircraft. So long as you dont fire at it at max range it cant fly far enough to satisfy the minimum range.
i thought that too but this is covered under AIRCRAFT AND STRATEGIC RESERVES
"If army is Battle-forged, and an AIRCRAFT cannot make its minimum move, it is placed into Strategic Reserves."
still kind of useful as i guess.... maybe?
wait really? i thought that was specifcially going off the board edge
Still useful as it would at least force their flyer to go away for a turn
again i thought the same but a friend pointed it out to me, here is the block text version .
"If you have a Battle-forged army, AIRCRAFT units from your army can, in your Movement phase, move off the edge of the battlefield (assuming it has sufficient Move for any part of its base (or hull) to touch the edge of the battlefield). If an AIRCRAFT unit does so, it is placed into Strategic Reserves. Similarly, if you have an AIRCRAFT unit with a minimum Move characteristic that cannot make its minimum move, or is forced to move off the battlefield because of its minimum move, then it is placed into Strategic Reserves. In either case, placing the AIRCRAFT (and any units currently embarked within them) into Strategic Reserves in this manner does not cost any CPs and the unit can be set back up on the battlefield in your next turn, as described in Setting Up Strategic Reserve Units"
that rule for minimum move aircraft being destroyed seems to have been removed
Which is fair as it made 0 sense that the aircraft couldnt just nose up and fly off that way.
Its still comically effective as it will force an aircraft to leave for a turn, probably really pissing someone off since they lose the shooting for it.
Not something i'd intentionally aim to do but if there was an aircraft nearby i'd stikk it. Not like that weapon is all that powerful anyway (find it weird its only 1 shot flat3 damage when its a gigantic harpoon)
TedNugent wrote: At least warboss was confirmed to take PK for 100 points. Forced to take Kombi weapon.
Big mek in MA can also take a Killsaw and comes with a klaw. 30 points for KFF. Why. Why would you ever. They also misprinted 4" movement.
Grotsnik is junk.
Lots of incredibly obvious mistakes in this codex, it seems. Ripe for a FAQ. Also rules seem jumbled over each other, some of which seems intentional to ruin certain things.
No nob bikers, no warboss on bike. Not sure if Evil Suns clan rules going to print was intended as a joke.
They were absolutely brutal to Gretchin. They want you taking those snagga gits for sure I guess.
I just don't know if there's even a reason to take a big mek. Why bother. Even with traditional orks, they just seem awful.
Kill rig can only take one relic, beastgob.
gungo wrote: Is maddoc the only model missing rules?
Grotsnik is literally a painboy with a 2+ ws and a 5+ fnp on self.
To be fair he also can advance and charge freely and can heal and fnp all clans and subkkultures and has a base 4+ save. But I agree he really shouldn’t cost more then 10 points more then a painboy. I was hoping he could heal ghaz but that’s out still ork infantry
He's also not deathskullz locked anymore since hes in that list of exceptions.
He wont have a 5++ against mortals or get 1 reroll hit or wound.... oh no im really upset about that lol
He was damn near autotake before but kultures usually got in the way. Theyre not in the way now. Muhahaha.
Looking through the book leaks..
the fact the mega boss has ZERO build options means he’s probably a pushfit model or a clam pack static model. I’m extremely surprised how limited the build is even if the Uge choppa isn’t bad weapon.
So ghaz has a reroll 1 to hit aura not the +1 to hit warboss aura… meaning he stacks with whatever beastrider snagga boss or named version or warboss you get. I’d still probably make them goff as well since makari is a cheap painboy. But it’s nice to see some things stack.
Also lol at evil suns getting a +1 to hit psychic power.. as if there is any unit left in your army that your weirdboy will by running alongside thats needs a +1 to hit… just add it to the list.
wait wtf their extra cover rule says "receives benefit of cover, add 2 to their save" instead of "when receiving benefit of cover add 2 instead of 1 to their save"
10 bucks they faq that. 3+ kommandos is nutty.
You can compare with the grots rule which has the exact same wording but [receives benefit of cover, add 1 to their save].
So teah kommandos really got 3+ save in cover.
So technically he did get better even if you're forced to pay for the big choppa and the kombi weapon.
Arguably with Headwoppas and a decent warlord trait or, being the only decent beatstick who can take Da Killa Klaw, he may be able to do some work. Still beyond lame you can only take one. I would fancy being able to take one with Woppas and one with DKK.
He does negate the -1 to hit on a standard PK, so with a Brutal but Kunnin' or the -1 to wound trait and Supa Cybork he could be interesting and decently resilient too. Default PK with +1 to hit is technically better than the Huge Choppa, being S12, and only takes up 1 transport spot.
Again, really annoying that you can only take one.
So technically he did get better even if you're forced to pay for the big choppa and the kombi weapon.
Arguably with Headwoppas and a decent warlord trait or, being the only decent beatstick who can take Da Killa Klaw, he may be able to do some work. Still beyond lame you can only take one. I would fancy being able to take one with Woppas and one with DKK.
You can thank marines and guys like Tau Coldstar commanders for setting the trend for limiting HQ choices for us.
You can thank marines and guys like Tau Coldstar commanders for setting the trend for limiting HQ choices for us.
I'd thank GW seeing as they wrote all three codexes. Still a lame rule, especially considering guys like Ghazghkull literally have multiple warbosses, to the point of literally having a formation called Council of the Waagh with, what, 3 Warbosses in it?
I like the classic Big Choppa Warboss model. And the Grukk model. And the AOBR model. Moar Warbosses. I want moar. With a megaboss.
I have resolved to put my blinders on to snagga stuff and grab a battlewagon with another box of nobs.
You can thank marines and guys like Tau Coldstar commanders for setting the trend for limiting HQ choices for us.
I'd thank GW seeing as they wrote all three codexes. Still a lame rule, especially considering guys like Ghazghkull literally have multiple warbosses, to the point of literally having a formation called Council of the Waagh with, what, 3 Warbosses in it?
I like the classic Big Choppa Warboss model. And the Grukk model. And the AOBR model. Moar Warbosses. I want moar. With a megaboss.
Yeahhhhh, kinda stinks losing out on having a whole wrecking crew of warbosses.
I honestly don't really know where to go in terms of list building. I kind of want to try a Deffskullz buggy/mechanized list, but I'm not sure how to go about it with the specialist mobz being in rules limbo since they don't work RAW.
Take ghaz In Supreme command
And 2 other detachments for 3 warbosses
But I agree i feel like we have a half dozen choices for warbosses we can’t use
Including badrukk since he has a warboss keyword limits him
As does the named warboss on squig
Or both beast boss versions (foot and squig)
Plus the normal and mega warboss
Maybe even warboss on bike if Fw allows it
I guess the only thing I haven’t seen now is the wurrboy stats but I’m not expecting much.
We have seen the whole book and while we thought we had a decent codex artificial restrictions and poorly thought out rules In How to use it hurts the book immensely
You can thank marines and guys like Tau Coldstar commanders for setting the trend for limiting HQ choices for us.
And Death Guard, and Sisters of Battle, and Genestealer Cults. At this point I think it is easier to count which factions aren't limited in HQ.
GSC hardly abused their characters, there was a short time when double magus detachments were a popular thing to bring alongside a Tyranid army, but they never had a "broken" spammable character like what's being discussed.
RedNoak wrote: btw.. quick math on the dakkajet:
8TH:
130 points 18 shots 36", BS 4+
-> 9 hits or 14,5 points per hit
9TH:
120points 24 shots 36", 36 shots 18", BS5+
-> 8 hits or 15 points per hit at 36", 12 hits or 10 points per hit at 18"
so got slightly worse at full distance, better at half distance, 10pts cheaper... well, in kontext of this codex that is phenomenal, in context of powercreep and the fact it wasnt really fielded before in 8th... It's not gud.
EDIT:
damn, i forgot dakkadakkadakka -.-
so it would be
8TH:
130 points 18 shots 36" range, BS 4+
-> 10,5 hits or 12 points per hit
so it basically got worse at full range and miniscule better at half range... oh my frikkin god, i cant handle this gak anymore....
No absolutely true. Make him Bad Moons (which is generaly pretty cool option for Heavy and Dakka weapons vehicles) and get better AP by one and better half range. With its speed, you will mostly fire the dakka range. And with the speedwaagh you have 42 shots (14 hits) 6/-3/1.
Flash gits are not clan locked anymore so at least they get affected by as +1 auras and abilities now. And a culture ability
You can put some in a big ead base. Deep strike it and because the big EAD base has a special remaining stationary rule for embarked units they won't get -1on heavy weapons
Tomsug wrote: Waaaagh and Speedwaaahg are another example. Make an ork rule about one masive warboss warcry per game and do not make mandatory to really warcry loudly around the table and make mandatory for all other ork players in the room to repat the warcry…. I call it epicly lost opportunity.
Well, the rule actually used to be like that. You gotta be careful with that though. I'm pretty much an ork in RL as well, so once when I declared my Waaagh! at the top of my lounges at a store, I made a kid dive under the table. The poor lad hurt himself since he essentially dove into a pile of cases and bags and almost knocked over the table in the process
Wait, it does not say that specialist mobs lose Clan keyword, they just don't get Kultur bonuses. So a trukkboy mob can actually ride a trukk, unless I misunderstand something.
Vineheart01 wrote: He's also not deathskullz locked anymore since hes in that list of exceptions.
He wont have a 5++ against mortals or get 1 reroll hit or wound.... oh no im really upset about that lol
He was damn near autotake before but kultures usually got in the way. Theyre not in the way now. Muhahaha.
He's also lost the obj sec ability if it's not a Deathskulls anymore. In 8th he was definitely worth his +25 points compared to a standard painboy.
At the moment conisidering how bad ork stratagems are I'm toying with a list consisting in a spearhead and an outrider deatchments. I'd start with 6 CPs + 1/turn which should be enough, but at least I'd have 8 FA and 8 HS and I could bring single buggies and single mek gunz this way.
JawRippa wrote: Wait, it does not say that specialist mobs lose Clan keyword, they just don't get Kultur bonuses. So a trukkboy mob can actually ride a trukk, unless I misunderstand something.
Okay, I know most people don't care about this particular pet peeve of mine but now it's confirmed. A power stabba is 5 points and its stats are unchanged.
The S: User AP-2 D1 costs the same as a powersword which is S+1 AP-3 D1, but fine different codex and all that. A big choppa is S+2 AP-1 D2, and those are 3 points. 2 points less! WTFGW? How can you possibly think this is an enticing statline in any type of scenario?
Real shame. This is modern Necromunda tier of rulewriting.
Also if Dakka type is just a bootleg Rapid fire with no way to advance and shoot, then the codex is not only boring, but also goes against orky way of fighting (advance to krump, shoot something on the go). Why not just give it rapid fire at this stage? Would 6 shots BShootas really be that overpowered?
Dakka should have been a combination of assault and rapid fire. Seems like whoever was designing the codex was really overvaluing Toughness 5 on infantry.
I think we can all agree that this will be errataed eventually.
So until it is done and we know the true rules for the specialist mob units, better simply ignore the specialist mob and focus on the rest of the new codex...
Hey Snikrot's trait is Kunnin but brutal, instead of 'I've got a plan ladz'. That's...interesting. (I am trying to make a okayish list of blood axes, that s why,. But it is a bit too early to talk about list ideas and such)
Vineheart01 wrote: Also cultists arent denied literally every single rule their army has. Grots get nothing, not even a subkulture anymore.
Well, for DG they are (no obsec, no stratagems, limited by the number of actual marines you take) and it's safe to assume that it will be the same for TS and CSM when their codices come out. Gretchin got off easy in comparison, but I agree that the incentive to take any is very low.
8TH: 130 points 18 shots 36", BS 4+ -> 9 hits or 14,5 points per hit
9TH: 120points 24 shots 36", 36 shots 18", BS5+ -> 8 hits or 15 points per hit at 36", 12 hits or 10 points per hit at 18"
so got slightly worse at full distance, better at half distance, 10pts cheaper... well, in kontext of this codex that is phenomenal, in context of powercreep and the fact it wasnt really fielded before in 8th... It's not gud.
EDIT: damn, i forgot dakkadakkadakka -.-
so it would be 8TH: 130 points 18 shots 36" range, BS 4+ -> 10,5 hits or 12 points per hit
so it basically got worse at full range and miniscule better at half range... oh my frikkin god, i cant handle this gak anymore....
Dakkajet in old codex is 170 points with six shootas. It dropped by 50 points, got ramshackle and got better at 18" which is super easy to archive for them. You can also split fire now, which is very helpful against stuff like guardsmen or drukhari infantry that dies in droves against S6 AP-1 shots.
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Vineheart01 wrote: He's also not deathskullz locked anymore since hes in that list of exceptions. He wont have a 5++ against mortals or get 1 reroll hit or wound.... oh no im really upset about that lol
He was damn near autotake before but kultures usually got in the way. Theyre not in the way now. Muhahaha.
He kept his 5+ FNP and there is nothing preventing you from taking it against mortals.
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TedNugent wrote: I'd thank GW seeing as they wrote all three codexes. Still a lame rule, especially considering guys like Ghazghkull literally have multiple warbosses, to the point of literally having a formation called Council of the Waagh with, what, 3 Warbosses in it?
He had two leftennunts. I actually ran the formation a few times, because if you are going to lose anyways, you can at least do it while having fun. IMO there is little reason to not bring an double patrols for 2 CP instead of a battalion, so if you put Thrakka into the supreme command detachment you can easily have three warbosses at 2k with enough slots to add a weirdboy, big mek, mad dok and some nobz to reform the Council of da Waaagh!, with Makari as a brand new member. Since Thrakka is a MONSTER he even protects all others from being shot, hilariously making the whole thing better than it ever was in 7th.
The only real headscratcher is the pain boss. Since he is a WARBOSS, he is pretty much dead on arrival, as there is literally no reason to ever take him.
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PiñaColada wrote: Okay, I know most people don't care about this particular pet peeve of mine but now it's confirmed. A power stabba is 5 points and its stats are unchanged.
The S: User AP-2 D1 costs the same as a powersword which is S+1 AP-3 D1, but fine different codex and all that. A big choppa is S+2 AP-1 D2, and those are 3 points. 2 points less! WTFGW? How can you possibly think this is an enticing statline in any type of scenario?
I don't have any power stabba nobz because I converted them all to 'urty syringes...
Jidmah wrote:
The only real headscratcher is the pain boss. Since he is a WARBOSS, he is pretty much dead on arrival, as there is literally no reason to ever take him.
Is the Painboss a warboss?He has the <painboss> keyword but I hadn't realised any restrictions extended to that keyword as well?
addnid wrote:I guess a bad moon kill rig could receive the bad moon WL trait for 1 CP, and get a 2+/4++ ? I didn't see any rule preventing a vehicule to be given a WLT... What do you guys think ? On reddit a guy says "Sadly vehicles can't get relics unless stated other wise, and the WL trait has to be specific for the Kill Rig :/" Is that dude right ?
The kill rig can't take any relics unless specified and is restricted to the beastgob WT if given one, per page 51. You should be able to give it the rezmekkas redder paint relic since that one works on vehicles (assuming you're willing to bring evil sunz)..
Jidmah wrote:
The only real headscratcher is the pain boss. Since he is a WARBOSS, he is pretty much dead on arrival, as there is literally no reason to ever take him.
Is the Painboss a warboss?He has the <painboss> keyword but I hadn't realised any restrictions extended to that keyword as well?
addnid wrote:I guess a bad moon kill rig could receive the bad moon WL trait for 1 CP, and get a 2+/4++ ? I didn't see any rule preventing a vehicule to be given a WLT... What do you guys think ? On reddit a guy says "Sadly vehicles can't get relics unless stated other wise, and the WL trait has to be specific for the Kill Rig :/" Is that dude right ?
The kill rig can't take any relics unless specified and is restricted to the beastgob WT if given one, per page 51. You should be able to give it the rezmekkas redder paint relic since that one works on vehicles (assuming you're willing to bring evil sunz)..
indeed, i just saw that :( IMHO it is too vulnerable to anti tank hits for 190 points
Vineheart01 wrote: Also cultists arent denied literally every single rule their army has. Grots get nothing, not even a subkulture anymore.
Well, for DG they are (no obsec, no stratagems, limited by the number of actual marines you take) and it's safe to assume that it will be the same for TS and CSM when their codices come out.
Gretchin got off easy in comparison, but I agree that the incentive to take any is very low.
8TH:
130 points 18 shots 36", BS 4+
-> 9 hits or 14,5 points per hit
9TH:
120points 24 shots 36", 36 shots 18", BS5+
-> 8 hits or 15 points per hit at 36", 12 hits or 10 points per hit at 18"
so got slightly worse at full distance, better at half distance, 10pts cheaper... well, in kontext of this codex that is phenomenal, in context of powercreep and the fact it wasnt really fielded before in 8th... It's not gud.
EDIT:
damn, i forgot dakkadakkadakka -.-
so it would be
8TH:
130 points 18 shots 36" range, BS 4+
-> 10,5 hits or 12 points per hit
so it basically got worse at full range and miniscule better at half range... oh my frikkin god, i cant handle this gak anymore....
Dakkajet in old codex is 170 points with six shootas. It dropped by 50 points, got ramshackle and got better at 18" which is super easy to archive for them. You can also split fire now, which is very helpful against stuff like guardsmen or drukhari infantry that dies in droves against S6 AP-1 shots.
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Vineheart01 wrote: He's also not deathskullz locked anymore since hes in that list of exceptions.
He wont have a 5++ against mortals or get 1 reroll hit or wound.... oh no im really upset about that lol
He was damn near autotake before but kultures usually got in the way. Theyre not in the way now. Muhahaha.
He kept his 5+ FNP and there is nothing preventing you from taking it against mortals.
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TedNugent wrote: I'd thank GW seeing as they wrote all three codexes. Still a lame rule, especially considering guys like Ghazghkull literally have multiple warbosses, to the point of literally having a formation called Council of the Waagh with, what, 3 Warbosses in it?
He had two leftennunts. I actually ran the formation a few times, because if you are going to lose anyways, you can at least do it while having fun. IMO there is little reason to not bring an double patrols for 2 CP instead of a battalion, so if you put Thrakka into the supreme command detachment you can easily have three warbosses at 2k with enough slots to add a weirdboy, big mek, mad dok and some nobz to reform the Council of da Waaagh!, with Makari as a brand new member. Since Thrakka is a MONSTER he even protects all others from being shot, hilariously making the whole thing better than it ever was in 7th.
The only real headscratcher is the pain boss. Since he is a WARBOSS, he is pretty much dead on arrival, as there is literally no reason to ever take him.
Well at the least its a good stand in for a painboy, because I hate the stupid painboy model
I still think the kill rig is great at 190 points, it's just all the pearl clutchers trying to get it to primarch level and then crying about it being insanely OP that are going to be disappointed. It's fairly durable at W16 T8 3+/6++ and ramshackle, doesn't degrade too bad and is a psyker with access to a decent psychic discipline. Also, anything that brings an autohitting weapon in the ork 'dex is always worth a second look IMO
Man I could write a novel on all the issues I want to see fixed in our faq.
We went from having a great codex to being so constrained by artificial limits on detachment and army builds. It literally prevents us from building viable lists…like all the warboss issues.
You already have mozgrod, badrukk, warboss, warboss on bike, warboss in mega, beast boss, beast boss on squighound, deffkilla wartrike and technically ghaz but he gets his own detachment as warbossses that can never be in the same detachment together.
Like forcing kustom jobs into a single model detachment and limiting them to 1 model.
Like specialist detachment rules removing clan interactions
Like making Gretchin not able to use kultures
Like not allowing Dakka weapons to work with evil suns kultur (or Waagh) by removing the penalty to hit when they advance when there is mainly only 1 assault weapon left for orks in the codex
All the +1 to hit abilities that don’t stack
warboss+1 hit in melee aura
Snagga boss +1 to hit melee aura to snagga only
All snaggas +1 to hit vehicle and monsters
Tankbustas +1 to hit vehicles
Freebooters +1 to hit kultur
Mekboss buzz grob +1 to hit on any dread unit
Waaagh banner +1 to hit melee aura
Zodgrod superrunts +1 to hit Gretchin unit
And the grot gunners, gitfinders, wing missiles, etc adding +1 to hit
Snikrot +1 hit bloodaxe commandos
Ere we go not rolling either or both die
Tankbustas not being allowed to move and fire heavy weapons
A bunch of strats that make no sense at 2cp like breaking eads costing 2cp when auto pass morale is already 2cp and does not cause Mortal wounds.
GoldenHorde wrote: Well at the least its a good stand in for a painboy, because I hate the stupid painboy model
Indeed, I also like the model, but I still have the old metal model and two kit-bashed ones since you just chucked them everywhere in old editions. No need for me to get a fourth one.
Speaking of worthless models, did anyone see the mini-mek anywhere? Or did GW just give up and axed him?
PiñaColada wrote: I still think the kill rig is great at 190 points, it's just all the pearl clutchers trying to get it to primarch level and then crying about it being insanely OP that are going to be disappointed. It's fairly durable at W16 T8 3+/6++ and ramshackle, doesn't degrade too bad and is a psyker with access to a decent psychic discipline. Also, anything that brings an autohitting weapon in the ork 'dex is always worth a second look IMO
It certainly looks okay on paper without trying to jazz it up. My issue with it (other than the look of the actual model itself) is that it has an auto hitting lascannon. So I clearly want to be firing that as often as physically possible. But it's built for CC because it gets a billion attacks. So unless I'm shooting stuff, then charging stuff and killing it off so that I'm free to shoot next turn, I'm wasting half of what makes it appealing.
If it were just a big psyker death ray and nothing else, or just a big squig drawn CC blender it would be great. But it can't realistically do both.
PiñaColada wrote: I still think the kill rig is great at 190 points, it's just all the pearl clutchers trying to get it to primarch level and then crying about it being insanely OP that are going to be disappointed. It's fairly durable at W16 T8 3+/6++ and ramshackle, doesn't degrade too bad and is a psyker with access to a decent psychic discipline. Also, anything that brings an autohitting weapon in the ork 'dex is always worth a second look IMO
It's essentially a better version of the zagzap gunwagon which did good work for me up till now. It fits well with a mech list, my main argument against it is that the model looks dumb. I might just kit-bash a bunch of stuff for one of my battlewagons or my gargantuan squiggoth to build a counts-as version, depending on how large it actually is.
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Afrodactyl wrote: It certainly looks okay on paper without trying to jazz it up. My issue with it (other than the look of the actual model itself) is that it has an auto hitting lascannon. So I clearly want to be firing that as often as physically possible. But it's built for CC because it gets a billion attacks. So unless I'm shooting stuff, then charging stuff and killing it off so that I'm free to shoot next turn, I'm wasting half of what makes it appealing.
If it were just a big psyker death ray and nothing else, or just a big squig drawn CC blender it would be great. But it can't realistically do both.
IMO at 190 it's cheap enough to just hang back and shoot, with the CC ability mainly being a deterrent against fast units trying to tag it.
GoldenHorde wrote: Well at the least its a good stand in for a painboy, because I hate the stupid painboy model
Indeed, I also like the model, but I still have the old metal model and two kit-bashed ones since you just chucked them everywhere in old editions. No need for me to get a fourth one.
Speaking of worthless models, did anyone see the mini-mek anywhere? Or did GW just give up and axed him?
Again, where are you guys seeing that the painboss is a warboss? On the leaked page (91) it doesn't have the warboss keyword, only the painboss keyword. Which I don't think is restricted, is it?
Edit: Yeah, the kill rig is like a combo of the zagzap battlewagon and the bonebreaka, for barely any more points than either. It's not an auto-take and should probably only be used in mechanised lists but 190 points aint much for that package IMO
gungo wrote: Man I could write a novel on all the issues I want to see fixed in our faq.
Well, do write it and send it to 40kfaq@gwplc.com - some of my questions are part of the DG and SotB FAQ now, so it's definitely worth writing there. Just make sure to keep it polite.
120 pt battle wagons are back, btw. Now, it's time to consider what's worth transporting. As they're open topped, it could be fairly decent for tankbustas.
Btw. Do Waaagh buffs work for units in transports? If so, maybe lootas are not hopeless for either a truck or a wagon.
On the second thought... Does anything work for units in transports other than transport specific rules?
We could actually get tankbustas nobz in a truck if we wanted to not that it's worth it but there is a possibility for bs4 rokkits on regular nobz.
GoldenHorde wrote: Well at the least its a good stand in for a painboy, because I hate the stupid painboy model
Indeed, I also like the model, but I still have the old metal model and two kit-bashed ones since you just chucked them everywhere in old editions. No need for me to get a fourth one.
Speaking of worthless models, did anyone see the mini-mek anywhere? Or did GW just give up and axed him?
Again, where are you guys seeing that the painboss is a warboss? On the leaked page (91) it doesn't have the warboss keyword, only the painboss keyword. Which I don't think is restricted, is it?
I was sure the app screenshot had him listed as warboss, but I can't find it anymore. So I might just be wrong.
I cannot find a list with a good mork tactic after the release of the full codex.
I'm thinking about playing a warboss/weirdboy/kff,
6x10 boyz for filling the board
2x5 kommandos and 2x5 stormboyz for secondaries
trukk with 6 meganobz for pushing his objectives
deffdread hitting at 2+ coming from DS with ramping speed
9 warbikes and 6 squihogs for fast push with the trukk
GoldenHorde wrote: Well at the least its a good stand in for a painboy, because I hate the stupid painboy model
Indeed, I also like the model, but I still have the old metal model and two kit-bashed ones since you just chucked them everywhere in old editions. No need for me to get a fourth one.
Speaking of worthless models, did anyone see the mini-mek anywhere? Or did GW just give up and axed him?
Again, where are you guys seeing that the painboss is a warboss? On the leaked page (91) it doesn't have the warboss keyword, only the painboss keyword. Which I don't think is restricted, is it?
Edit: Yeah, the kill rig is like a combo of the zagzap battlewagon and the bonebreaka, for barely any more points than either. It's not an auto-take and should probably only be used in mechanised lists but 190 points aint much for that package IMO
GoldenHorde wrote: Well at the least its a good stand in for a painboy, because I hate the stupid painboy model
Indeed, I also like the model, but I still have the old metal model and two kit-bashed ones since you just chucked them everywhere in old editions. No need for me to get a fourth one.
Speaking of worthless models, did anyone see the mini-mek anywhere? Or did GW just give up and axed him?
Again, where are you guys seeing that the painboss is a warboss? On the leaked page (91) it doesn't have the warboss keyword, only the painboss keyword. Which I don't think is restricted, is it?
I was sure the app screenshot had him listed as warboss, but I can't find it anymore. So I might just be wrong.
In other news, have you seen the bombs on the two bommers? The blitza is essentially a flying 'eadbut on each bomb and the burna bommer his all models within 6".
Oh, and I'm totally going to run a MA big mek with tellyporta blaster and ded shiney shoota as deff skulls opportunist. This is just asking for drive-by character assassination
The flyers are actually looking great in my opinion, pick up a wazbom with tellyport blastas and the forcefield and a dakkajet or bomber and make yourself a really mobile airwing that has great range and some potentially really scary shooting, not cheap maybe but should be fun. If nothing else it will pull shooting away from the rest of your stuff and mean your opponent has some tough choices on target priority which is never a bad thing.
GoldenHorde wrote: Well at the least its a good stand in for a painboy, because I hate the stupid painboy model
Indeed, I also like the model, but I still have the old metal model and two kit-bashed ones since you just chucked them everywhere in old editions. No need for me to get a fourth one.
Speaking of worthless models, did anyone see the mini-mek anywhere? Or did GW just give up and axed him?
His only real use is way of cheap filling of an elites slot, but yes worthless model as you can kitbash one with little to no effort
kingbbobb wrote: Flash gits are not clan locked anymore so at least they get affected by as +1 auras and abilities now. And a culture ability
You can put some in a big ead base. Deep strike it and because the big EAD base has a special remaining stationary rule for embarked units they won't get -1on heavy weapons
you could also put squig tyres on it and creep it 1" forward each turn
BTW, why are you all talking about the killrig? the huntarig is basically a 160 point bonebreaka, if you used a tellyported bonebreaka why not call it a (bitter tasting) win with 15points and a cp saved?
EDIT: my bad on the dakkajet, thought you only pay for the extra two supashootaz. but still not sold on the effectivness :/
kingbbobb wrote: Flash gits are not clan locked anymore so at least they get affected by as +1 auras and abilities now. And a culture ability
You can put some in a big ead base. Deep strike it and because the big EAD base has a special remaining stationary rule for embarked units they won't get -1on heavy weapons
you could also put squig tyres on it and creep it 1" forward each turn
BTW, why are you all talking about the killrig?
the huntarig is basically a 160 point bonebreaka, if you used a tellyported bonebreaka why not call it a (bitter tasting) win with 15points and a cp saved?
EDIT:
my bad on the dakkajet, thought you only pay for the extra two supashootaz. but still not sold on the effectivness :/
Nice idea but unfortunately you can't, core rules below
"Characteristics of ‘-’ can never be modified."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psychocouac wrote: Problem with the planes is they are always sitting in sight of all the enemy firepower and are not tanky at all.
No. But a combination on snakebites 1-3 unmodified wounds rolls always fail on upto s7 weapons. Ramshackle. Combined with -1 to hit helps a bit I think
Jidmah wrote: Most of their poison is 4+ anyways, so I wouldn't bother.
actually alot of their more deadly stuff is 2+ to wound. especially in CC they rely ALOT on autowound stuff because their strengh is mostly just a plain 3.
also shredders would be neutred by snakebites (otherwise an excellent weapon against orks)
kingbbobb wrote: Flash gits are not clan locked anymore so at least they get affected by as +1 auras and abilities now. And a culture ability
You can put some in a big ead base. Deep strike it and because the big EAD base has a special remaining stationary rule for embarked units they won't get -1on heavy weapons
you could also put squig tyres on it and creep it 1" forward each turn
BTW, why are you all talking about the killrig?
the huntarig is basically a 160 point bonebreaka, if you used a tellyported bonebreaka why not call it a (bitter tasting) win with 15points and a cp saved?
EDIT:
my bad on the dakkajet, thought you only pay for the extra two supashootaz. but still not sold on the effectivness :/
You do absolutely pay for only the additional 2 supa-shootas. That's how the new point cost system works. Anything the unit has by default on the datasheet, the unit has for its base cost, and they only add a point cost for things that cost you additional points. And if you look at the dakkajet's cost it says "ADDITIONAL supa-shoota +10pts". Or how Killa Kanz are now - the Big Shoota and Grotzooka are both 0pts upgrades, so neither are listed. Only the Scorcha which costs 5 more points and the rokkits which cost 15 more points are listed.
Dakka does not appear to allow you to Advance and fire. Which kind of sucks. I guess they really want you to take Badmoonz if you want to shoot. I like the Badmoonz trait, actually. To me it seems pretty useful.
Specialist Mobz do not actually have a limit. So you can make an army of trukk boyz if you want. RAW though you can't actually put them in the trukk, which is silly.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Dakka does not appear to allow you to Advance and fire. So much for shoota mobz I guess.
I'm going to try shoota boyz in a trukk (not to be confused with trukk boyz) in my Speedwaaagh freebootas list to see if theyve got any teeth. 4 shots AP-1 doesnt sound too shabby to me with the speedwaagh popped.
kingbbobb wrote: Flash gits are not clan locked anymore so at least they get affected by as +1 auras and abilities now. And a culture ability
You can put some in a big ead base. Deep strike it and because the big EAD base has a special remaining stationary rule for embarked units they won't get -1on heavy weapons
you could also put squig tyres on it and creep it 1" forward each turn
BTW, why are you all talking about the killrig?
the huntarig is basically a 160 point bonebreaka, if you used a tellyported bonebreaka why not call it a (bitter tasting) win with 15points and a cp saved?
EDIT:
my bad on the dakkajet, thought you only pay for the extra two supashootaz. but still not sold on the effectivness :/
You do absolutely pay for only the additional 2 supa-shootas. That's how the new point cost system works. Anything the unit has by default on the datasheet, the unit has for its base cost, and they only add a point cost for things that cost you additional points. And if you look at the dakkajet's cost it says "ADDITIONAL supa-shoota +10pts". Or how Killa Kanz are now - the Big Shoota and Grotzooka are both 0pts upgrades, so neither are listed. Only the Scorcha which costs 5 more points and the rokkits which cost 15 more points are listed.
We were talking about the 8th edition codex - you need to pay for all 6 there.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Dakka does not appear to allow you to Advance and fire. So much for shoota mobz I guess.
I'm going to try shoota boyz in a trukk (not to be confused with trukk boyz) in my Speedwaaagh freebootas list to see if theyve got any teeth. 4 shots AP-1 doesnt sound too shabby to me with the speedwaagh popped.
Yeah, the speedwaagh buffs seem really strong compared to the normal waagh buffs. Evil Sunz isn't too bad either because they basically have part of the speed waagh permanently unlocked already.
Keep in mind though that infantry do not get the extra armor pen from speedwaagh, only Bikers and vehicles. If you want the extra pen on infantry you have to go badmoonz and hope for 6s
Freebooters are not that good. The buff only affects other freebooters.
Grots do not get kultures. So no tanky snakebite gobbos. :( Also, specialist mobs don't get kultures either. They just allow everyone else to have one.
Sorry if this has been posted before, but just wanted clarification...
The Big'ed bossbunka.
Its Shoutin' Pole says:
While a WARBOSS model is embarked upon this TRANSPORT, the bearer gains that WARBOSS model's Warboss, Beastboss or Flashiest Gitz aura ability.
So just to check, this still wouldn't apply to anyone in the bunker no? E.g. If Badrukk is in the bunker with 9 flash gitz, they dont get rerolls do they?
Or am I missing a 9th edition aura/transport change?
Brad Gamma wrote: Sorry if this has been posted before, but just wanted clarification...
The Big'ed bossbunka.
Its Shoutin' Pole says:
While a WARBOSS model is embarked upon this TRANSPORT, the bearer gains that WARBOSS model's Warboss, Beastboss or Flashiest Gitz aura ability.
So just to check, this still wouldn't apply to anyone in the bunker no? E.g. If Badrukk is in the bunker with 9 flash gitz, they dont get rerolls do they?
Or am I missing a 9th edition aura/transport change?
Regards
embarked units never benefit from auras.
maybe someone could give the warboss a damn walkie talkie ...so he DOESNT NEED TO BE IN THE FRIGGIN THING?!
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Dakka does not appear to allow you to Advance and fire. Which kind of sucks.
I guess they really want you to take Badmoonz if you want to shoot.
I like the Badmoonz trait, actually. To me it seems pretty useful.
Specialist Mobz do not actually have a limit. So you can make an army of trukk boyz if you want.
RAW though you can't actually put them in the trukk, which is silly.
Specialist mobz are limited unfortunately to one per detachment. you can have multiple trukk boyz if the are from different detachments
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Dakka does not appear to allow you to Advance and fire. Which kind of sucks. I guess they really want you to take Badmoonz if you want to shoot. I like the Badmoonz trait, actually. To me it seems pretty useful.
Specialist Mobz do not actually have a limit. So you can make an army of trukk boyz if you want. RAW though you can't actually put them in the trukk, which is silly.
Specialist mobz are limited unfortunately to one per detachment. you can have multiple trukk boyz if the are from different detachments
Ah I didn't see that clause. I missed the "one" Well that's unfortunate. Oh well, they don't benefit from kultures anyway and can't even use transports.
It's fairly clear that trukk boyz are intended to be using trukks. Just explain the whole thing to your opponent, the codex is banned from most bigger events anyways.
maybe someone could give the warboss a damn walkie talkie ...so he DOESNT NEED TO BE IN THE FRIGGIN THING?!
Thats what I thought, it just seems odd that they'd make a whole special rule, that includes the flashiest gitz rule, that follows normal transport rules otherwise.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Dakka does not appear to allow you to Advance and fire. So much for shoota mobz I guess.
I'm going to try shoota boyz in a trukk (not to be confused with trukk boyz) in my Speedwaaagh freebootas list to see if theyve got any teeth. 4 shots AP-1 doesnt sound too shabby to me with the speedwaagh popped.
Unfortunately I think speed waagh gives the extra shot only to the trukk, not the shoota boyz in it. Am I wrong ? Again ?! I keep being wrong about how I understand rules in this debacle of a codex.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Dakka does not appear to allow you to Advance and fire. So much for shoota mobz I guess.
I'm going to try shoota boyz in a trukk (not to be confused with trukk boyz) in my Speedwaaagh freebootas list to see if theyve got any teeth. 4 shots AP-1 doesnt sound too shabby to me with the speedwaagh popped.
Unfortunately I think speed waagh gives the extra shot only to the trukk, not the shoota boyz in it. Am I wrong ? Again ?! I keep being wrong about how I understand rules in this debacle of a codex.
Yeah, it only affects vehicles and bikes, not infantry. So only the trukk is getting the AP modifier.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Dakka does not appear to allow you to Advance and fire. So much for shoota mobz I guess.
I'm going to try shoota boyz in a trukk (not to be confused with trukk boyz) in my Speedwaaagh freebootas list to see if theyve got any teeth. 4 shots AP-1 doesnt sound too shabby to me with the speedwaagh popped.
Unfortunately I think speed waagh gives the extra shot only to the trukk, not the shoota boyz in it. Am I wrong ? Again ?! I keep being wrong about how I understand rules in this debacle of a codex.
Yeah, it only affects vehicles and bikes, not infantry. So only the trukk is getting the AP modifier.
But transports have the advanced rule that any buffs/debuffs affecting the vehicles also affect the models inside. What am I missing?
Brad Gamma wrote: Sorry if this has been posted before, but just wanted clarification...
The Big'ed bossbunka.
Its Shoutin' Pole says:
While a WARBOSS model is embarked upon this TRANSPORT, the bearer gains that WARBOSS model's Warboss, Beastboss or Flashiest Gitz aura ability.
So just to check, this still wouldn't apply to anyone in the bunker no? E.g. If Badrukk is in the bunker with 9 flash gitz, they dont get rerolls do they?
Or am I missing a 9th edition aura/transport change?
Regards
yeah, the bossbunka is weird as it essentially just lets you hide your warboss but doesn't increase aura ability range. also the two standard auras are melee which is ... not so useful on an immobile unit
which opponent is stupid enough to get into a brawl right next to your bossbunka. and wouldn't you rather want your warboss outside to heroicly interve?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Dakka does not appear to allow you to Advance and fire. So much for shoota mobz I guess.
I'm going to try shoota boyz in a trukk (not to be confused with trukk boyz) in my Speedwaaagh freebootas list to see if theyve got any teeth. 4 shots AP-1 doesnt sound too shabby to me with the speedwaagh popped.
I was just going to retort that this wasn't a thing until I realized it says "models in a vehicle." Derp.
But transports have the advanced rule that any buffs/debuffs affecting the vehicles also affect the models inside. What am I missing?
It says "Each time a model in an orks vehicle or Orks Biker unit from your army shoots with a Dakka weapon [...]"
Do they not count as part of the unit once embarked?
Did some maths agains MEQ at BS5.
8 Shootas
1 big shoota
1 Kombi skorcha
Dakka range
1.3 8 shoota boys at 3 shots
.0792 kombi shoota profile
1.155 kombi skorcha profile
.36 big shoota 5 shots
2.82 wounds against MEQ
Dakka range speed waaagh round 1
1.74 8 shootaboys at 4 shots
.10 kombi weapon shoota profile 4 shots
1.155 kombi skorcha profile
.43 big shoota 6 shots
3.4 wounds on MEQ
Dakka range speed waaagh round 2
2.64 shootaboys at 3 shots AP-1
.16 kombi weapon shota 3 shots AP-1
1.5246 kombi skorcha profile
.65 big shoota 5 shots AP-1
4.97 wounds on MEQ
By contrast, one unit of 4 burna boyz at 12":
2.31 wounds not including spanna
8 burna boyz:
4.62 wounds not including spannas
8 burnas with -1 AP 7 wounds
one unit of 6 warbikers (175 p):
No speedwaaagh at 9"
4.31 wounds
Speedwaaagh +1 shot at 9"
4.74 wounds
Speedwaaagh -1 AP at 9"
6.5 wounds
Speedwaaagh +1 shot at 18"
3.02 wounds
No buffs at 18"
2.58 wounds
The AP-1 buff seems to be far more significant than the extra shot. The thing that makes me nervous is how it wants you to get into 9". Each Trukkboy unit would run roughly 175 points.
With BS4 and AP-1 at 9" (freebootas buff)
3 wounds with shootas
1.52 wounds with kombi skorcha
.25 wounds with kombi shoota
.82 wounds with big shoota
5.59 wounds
I just read all the Ork planes rules. I have 3...I need to get about 6 more
They very well might be the "bright spot" in our codex. Team them up with a Speedwaaagh on the ground of warbikers and we have an army of -1 to hit T5+ vehicles that most have -1dmg as well.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Dakka does not appear to allow you to Advance and fire. So much for shoota mobz I guess.
I'm going to try shoota boyz in a trukk (not to be confused with trukk boyz) in my Speedwaaagh freebootas list to see if theyve got any teeth. 4 shots AP-1 doesnt sound too shabby to me with the speedwaagh popped.
Unfortunately I think speed waagh gives the extra shot only to the trukk, not the shoota boyz in it. Am I wrong ? Again ?! I keep being wrong about how I understand rules in this debacle of a codex.
Yeah, it only affects vehicles and bikes, not infantry. So only the trukk is getting the AP modifier.
But transports have the advanced rule that any buffs/debuffs affecting the vehicles also affect the models inside. What am I missing?
RAW i think you are right as the rare rules copy all modifiers for the transport to the embarked units shooting
edit: cthululu is right its only vehicles and bikers benefiting which excludes the embarked units
I'm glad I painted up my Dakkajet and Wazbom Blastajet recently, they'll actually see use again!
Do buggies still look viable at all alongside a mechanized list? I'm wondering if an Outrider detachment is worth it so we can basically do what we used to do and take advantage of the points cuts we got instead of relying solely on the kustom jobs which are now pretty poopy.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Dakka does not appear to allow you to Advance and fire. So much for shoota mobz I guess.
I'm going to try shoota boyz in a trukk (not to be confused with trukk boyz) in my Speedwaaagh freebootas list to see if theyve got any teeth. 4 shots AP-1 doesnt sound too shabby to me with the speedwaagh popped.
Unfortunately I think speed waagh gives the extra shot only to the trukk, not the shoota boyz in it. Am I wrong ? Again ?! I keep being wrong about how I understand rules in this debacle of a codex.
Yeah, it only affects vehicles and bikes, not infantry. So only the trukk is getting the AP modifier.
But transports have the advanced rule that any buffs/debuffs affecting the vehicles also affect the models inside. What am I missing?
RAW i think you are right as the rare rules copy all modifiers for the transport to the embarked units shooting
From the advanced rules - "If a transport model is under the effects of a modifier to its ranged attacks (such as a modifier to its hits rolls, wound rolls, etc) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model makes a ranged attack."
The vehicle gets the modifier, and then the modifier is passed on to the embarked unit via this rule. If the rule said "the embarked unit also gets the buff/debuff", then it wouldn't work as SpeedWaagh specifically calls out vehicles and bikers. But it doesn't say that. It says "the modifier applies each time an embarked model makes a ranged attack." The way I'm reading this, all of our infantry get Speedwaagh only while inside transports. So running tankbustas or lootas inside battlewagons has real legs.
Rare Rules 9: If a TRANSPORT model is under the effects of a modifier to its ranged attacks (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls, etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model makes a ranged attack.
(this is interesting for Trukk Boyz as I believe it means that in granting +1 to the trukk they're riding in, they also always attack at BS4+)
Rare Rules 7: Any abilities (including Detachment abilities) that models in an embarked unit have, or that their weapons have, continue to apply when they make ranged attacks. "Waaagh" is a datasheet ability that all orks models have, so models in transports, boss bunkas etc DO benefit from the effects of both waaghs and speedwaaghs.
Whether or not infantry embarked within orks vehicles benefit from Speedwaaagh I believe is whether or not GW considers +1 shot from Dakka weaponry and -1AP to be a 'modifier' because while they specify an example in rare rule 9 "(such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls, etc)" it's unclear whether the extra shots and ap are a 'modifier.'
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Dakka does not appear to allow you to Advance and fire. So much for shoota mobz I guess.
I'm going to try shoota boyz in a trukk (not to be confused with trukk boyz) in my Speedwaaagh freebootas list to see if theyve got any teeth. 4 shots AP-1 doesnt sound too shabby to me with the speedwaagh popped.
Unfortunately I think speed waagh gives the extra shot only to the trukk, not the shoota boyz in it. Am I wrong ? Again ?! I keep being wrong about how I understand rules in this debacle of a codex.
Yeah, it only affects vehicles and bikes, not infantry. So only the trukk is getting the AP modifier.
But transports have the advanced rule that any buffs/debuffs affecting the vehicles also affect the models inside. What am I missing?
RAW i think you are right as the rare rules copy all modifiers for the transport to the embarked units shooting
From the advanced rules - "If a transport model is under the effects of a modifier to its ranged attacks (such as a modifier to its hits rolls, wound rolls, etc) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model makes a ranged attack."
The way I'm reading this, all of our infantry get Speedwaagh only while inside transports. So running tankbustas or lootas inside battlewagons has real legs.
I was wrong and cthululu was right. speedwaagh unfortunately specifies that only the shooting from vehicles and bikers is affected. so embarking wont give you bonuses
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Dakka does not appear to allow you to Advance and fire. So much for shoota mobz I guess.
I'm going to try shoota boyz in a trukk (not to be confused with trukk boyz) in my Speedwaaagh freebootas list to see if theyve got any teeth. 4 shots AP-1 doesnt sound too shabby to me with the speedwaagh popped.
Unfortunately I think speed waagh gives the extra shot only to the trukk, not the shoota boyz in it. Am I wrong ? Again ?! I keep being wrong about how I understand rules in this debacle of a codex.
Yeah, it only affects vehicles and bikes, not infantry. So only the trukk is getting the AP modifier.
But transports have the advanced rule that any buffs/debuffs affecting the vehicles also affect the models inside. What am I missing?
RAW i think you are right as the rare rules copy all modifiers for the transport to the embarked units shooting
From the advanced rules - "If a transport model is under the effects of a modifier to its ranged attacks (such as a modifier to its hits rolls, wound rolls, etc) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model makes a ranged attack."
The way I'm reading this, all of our infantry get Speedwaagh only while inside transports. So running tankbustas or lootas inside battlewagons has real legs.
I was wrong and cthululu was right. speedwaagh unfortunately specifies that only the shooting from vehicles and bikers is affected. so embarking wont give you bonuses
I edited my response above. I still think it applies.
Rare Rules 9: If a TRANSPORT model is under the effects of a modifier to its ranged attacks (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls, etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model makes a ranged attack.
(this is interesting for Trukk Boyz as I believe it means that in granting +1 to the trukk they're riding in, they also always attack at BS4+)
Rare Rules 7: Any abilities (including Detachment abilities) that models in an embarked unit have, or that their weapons have, continue to apply when they make ranged attacks. "Waaagh" is a datasheet ability that all orks models have, so models in transports, boss bunkas etc DO benefit from the effects of both waaghs and speedwaaghs.
Whether or not infantry embarked within orks vehicles benefit from Speedwaaagh I believe is whether or not GW considers +1 shot from Dakka weaponry and -1AP to be a 'modifier' because while they specify an example in rare rule 9 "(such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls, etc)" it's unclear whether the extra shots and ap are a 'modifier.'
-1AP and extra shots are by definition "modifiers to its ranged attacks."
It also gives a bonus on shooting to the trukk itself, not the models within it? So basically the single big shoota? What a bizarre little add on lol. That's not even a complaint as I love it overall. Just... the tiniest of add ons to go with it.
It also gives a bonus on shooting to the trukk itself, not the models within it? So basically the single big shoota? What a bizarre little add on lol. That's not even a complaint as I love it overall. Just... the tiniest of add ons to go with it.
Based on the wording of the advanced rule that we referenced above, the +1 to hit modifier for the trukk is passed on to models embarked within it. So as the scottsman stated, shoota boyz w/ the trukk boyz spec mob inside a trukk get BS 4+. Then during the speedwaagh their shootas become Dakka 4/3 S4 AP-1 D1. 12 shootas in a trukk w/in 9" get 48 shots at S4, AP-1, D1, hitting on 4s. That kills 3 space marines. Not bad IMO.
Grimskul wrote: I'm glad I painted up my Dakkajet and Wazbom Blastajet recently, they'll actually see use again!
Do buggies still look viable at all alongside a mechanized list? I'm wondering if an Outrider detachment is worth it so we can basically do what we used to do and take advantage of the points cuts we got instead of relying solely on the kustom jobs which are now pretty poopy.
The Snazzwaggon absolutely devours M/PEQ, 10-14 s5 ap2 d2 shots.
It also gives a bonus on shooting to the trukk itself, not the models within it? So basically the single big shoota? What a bizarre little add on lol. That's not even a complaint as I love it overall. Just... the tiniest of add ons to go with it.
There's a few things in the book like that, like 'Orrible Gitz whose main purpose is to give a unit of grots Objective Secured back but bizarrely includes a debuff of -1 to hit in shooting for any units (friendlies included) within 3" of them.
Re: Speedwaaagh and Trukkboyz buffs, GW's intent through 8th edition was clear enough to me that I doubt it's dramatically changed. Regardless of how you can interpret RAW, expect an errata to make it clear that units embarked in an open-topped transport only are affected by negative modifiers to their shooting. Everyone remembers the Battlewagon ignores Heavy penalty issue, right? Same principle, and I expect the same ruling from GW.
Specialist Mobz do not actually have a limit. So you can make an army of trukk boyz if you want.
RAW though you can't actually put them in the trukk, which is silly.
First part isn't true, you are allowed to take one specialist mob per detachment.
1) Specialist Mobs lose their <clan> keyword in exchange for the Specialist Mobs keyword. This disallows them from benefitting from psychic powers, aura abilities, and critically embarking within transports. Given that Trukk Boyz' rules appear to revolve around being in transports, is this unintended, and instead Specialist Mobs units should retain the <clan> keyword but be exempted from benefitting from the Kultur rule?
2) Speedwaaagh allows ORK VEHICLE keyword units to fire an additional shot with Dakka weapons and gain an additional point of AP. In 'rare rules 9' if a TRANSPORT keyword model is under the effects of a modifier to its ranged attacks, the same modifier applies to embarked models. Do models embarked inside ORK VEHICLE keyword models also fire additional shots with Dakka weapons and gain additional points of AP while a Speedwaagh is in effect?
3) In the Speedwaagh and Evil Sunz kultur rules, models being able to advance and fire assault weapons without penalty is a listed benefit. In the entirety of Codex: Orks, there are only a small handful of assault weapons that do not hit automatically (Kustom Mega Blastas, Squig Launchas, Scorcha Missiles, etc) and there is no unit that can be armed only with Assault weapons. Is this intended to allow units to Advance and shoot with Dakka weapons instead?
4) What, if any, content present in Psychic Awakening: Saga of the Beast is still legal for use? Most of the stratagems, clan-specific psychic powers, subkulturs such as Cheeky Zoggerz etc do not appear to have replacements in the codex.
5) The ability "Grot Gunner and Targetin' Squig" on the Shokkjump Dragsta modifies the ballistic skill of the model when firing certain ranged weapons. However, other models with similar abilities (Gitfinda squig on Flash Gitz, Grot Gunner on several models, Tank Hunters on Tankbustas) add +1 to hit rolls when using certain weapons, which in 9th edition is capped at +1/-1 and therefore would not allow them to be used in conjunction with other abilities (e.g. the Freebootas clan kultur). Are these abilities intended to modify Ballistic skill instead when firing those weapons?
6) Does the restriction for Kustom Jobs only being allowed to be used on single model units also apply to the Mekboy Workshop's "I've got just the fing" ability?
7) The kustom job "extra kustom weapon" is listed under 'mek kustom jobs" but other models than meks/spannas can take kustom mega blastas (deffcoptas, deff dreads). is it intentional that this kustom job can be purchased for those models?
Specialist Mobz do not actually have a limit. So you can make an army of trukk boyz if you want.
RAW though you can't actually put them in the trukk, which is silly.
First part isn't true, you are allowed to take one specialist mob per detachment.
Source, literally the specialist mobs section
Yeah I missed the clause that limits it to one.
Small text is small.
10 tankbustas inside of a trukk during speedwaagh get 20 shots on average, hitting on 4s (vs vehicles), AP-3!. That's 16.5dmg to a T7 vehicle and 12.5 dmg to T8.
15 tankbustas inside a battlewagon get 30 shots, doing 18.75 dmg to a T8 vehicle!!! Even if the vehicle moved, they are still BS 5+ and the damage is reduced to 12.5 on a T8 vehicle. Still spicy IMO.
The bright spot is still
Stormboys and zagstruk
Squig riders and smasha nob
Kommandos 3+ save w 12in flamers and +1 wound
Deffkoptas
And beastboss on squig
If you are building a list from above for troops I’d take a 10x trukk boyz when it gets faq.
And maybe 10x snagga boys in trukk honestly wish we could do 2x trukk boys.
Ghaz took a hit from last codex he still works but I don’t feel he’s a must have anymore.
It also gives a bonus on shooting to the trukk itself, not the models within it? So basically the single big shoota? What a bizarre little add on lol. That's not even a complaint as I love it overall. Just... the tiniest of add ons to go with it.
There's a few things in the book like that, like 'Orrible Gitz whose main purpose is to give a unit of grots Objective Secured back but bizarrely includes a debuff of -1 to hit in shooting for any units (friendlies included) within 3" of them.
Re: Speedwaaagh and Trukkboyz buffs, GW's intent through 8th edition was clear enough to me that I doubt it's dramatically changed. Regardless of how you can interpret RAW, expect an errata to make it clear that units embarked in an open-topped transport only are affected by negative modifiers to their shooting. Everyone remembers the Battlewagon ignores Heavy penalty issue, right? Same principle, and I expect the same ruling from GW.
Transports ignoring the heavy penalty is not a "modifier to a ranged attack." That is completely different IMO.
Grimskul wrote: I'm glad I painted up my Dakkajet and Wazbom Blastajet recently, they'll actually see use again!
Do buggies still look viable at all alongside a mechanized list? I'm wondering if an Outrider detachment is worth it so we can basically do what we used to do and take advantage of the points cuts we got instead of relying solely on the kustom jobs which are now pretty poopy.
The Snazzwaggon absolutely devours M/PEQ, 10-14 s5 ap2 d2 shots.
Well once you do the math, not so much... Unless it gets +1 to hit, for example if you give it the freebooter clan trait +1 to hit. It is a good vehicule but I think there is a bit of overlap with bikes. Snazzwagons are certainly much improved and totally worth considering
Heavy penalty is a keyword trigger not a debuff.
Embarked units count as moving and that is the only trigger for it. Vehicle isnt even affected by said trigger, positive or negative, so it cant confer anything to the occupants.
Grimskul wrote: I'm glad I painted up my Dakkajet and Wazbom Blastajet recently, they'll actually see use again!
Do buggies still look viable at all alongside a mechanized list? I'm wondering if an Outrider detachment is worth it so we can basically do what we used to do and take advantage of the points cuts we got instead of relying solely on the kustom jobs which are now pretty poopy.
The Snazzwaggon absolutely devours M/PEQ, 10-14 s5 ap2 d2 shots.
Well once you do the math, not so much... Unless it gets +1 to hit, for example if you give it the freebooter clan trait +1 to hit. It is a good vehicule but I think there is a bit of overlap with bikes. Snazzwagons are certainly much improved and totally worth considering
Right now, I'm considering keeping a unit of 2 scrapjets together since they actually don't mind being in CC. 2 single units of KBB and 2 single units of Shokkjump Dragstas. I'm debating on a squig buggy for out of LoS shooting, I think I'm going to hold off on Snazzwagons for now. Does anyone know if I should stick with Deffskullz or would Freebootas be more beneficial for a buggy oriented list?
Deep strike 10 nobs w/ kombi-skorchas in a trukk turn 2, w/ speedwaagh, that's 10D6 autohitting shots at S5 AP -2 1D. That's almost 8 dead space muhreens.
Keramory wrote: "There is no units with only assault weapons"
Holy heck. I knew they were stretched thin but thats.. really bad lol
Don't say that, GW will happily point to the fact that the deffkilla wartrike only has assault weapons..
But yeah, at the very least Evil sunz should be able to count dakka weapons as assault weapons during the first round of the speedwaagh (which GW graciously just added half the ES kultur on anyways)
Grimskul wrote: I'm glad I painted up my Dakkajet and Wazbom Blastajet recently, they'll actually see use again!
Do buggies still look viable at all alongside a mechanized list? I'm wondering if an Outrider detachment is worth it so we can basically do what we used to do and take advantage of the points cuts we got instead of relying solely on the kustom jobs which are now pretty poopy.
The Snazzwaggon absolutely devours M/PEQ, 10-14 s5 ap2 d2 shots.
Well once you do the math, not so much... Unless it gets +1 to hit, for example if you give it the freebooter clan trait +1 to hit. It is a good vehicule but I think there is a bit of overlap with bikes. Snazzwagons are certainly much improved and totally worth considering
Right now, I'm considering keeping a unit of 2 scrapjets together since they actually don't mind being in CC. 2 single units of KBB and 2 single units of Shokkjump Dragstas. I'm debating on a squig buggy for out of LoS shooting, I think I'm going to hold off on Snazzwagons for now. Does anyone know if I should stick with Deffskullz or would Freebootas be more beneficial for a buggy oriented list?
Deathskullz I say. rorolls and 5+++ against mortals is just too much to take something else. Freebooters is good but the trigger depends on too many things for me. I can't get info on the CC weapons for scrapjet, are they the same as before ? 4 attacks hitting on 4s strengh 8 ap-2 damage d3 (changed to "2" perhaps ?)
gungo wrote: The bright spot is still
Stormboys and zagstruk
Squig riders and smasha nob
Kommandos 3+ save w 12in flamers and +1 wound
Deffkoptas
And beastboss on squig
If you are building a list from above for troops I’d take a 10x trukk boyz when it gets faq.
And maybe 10x snagga boys in trukk honestly wish we could do 2x trukk boys.
Ghaz took a hit from last codex he still works but I don’t feel he’s a must have anymore.
You can, just do two detachments.
My evil sunz list is looking like
Patrol - Trukk Boyz (Boyz)
Outrider - Trukk Boyz (Nobz)
(and then obviously like a million fast attack units)
Deep strike 10 nobs w/ kombi-skorchas in a trukk turn 2, w/ speedwaagh, that's 10D6 autohitting shots at S5 AP -2 1D. That's almost 8 dead space muhreens.
this would both be easier, deadlier, and actually work with a trio of skorcha dreads for 315pts instead of 380 for the nobz alone. Yeah you lose out on the Shoota half (since you can fire both and care not about the -1 with skorcha when doing so) but you cant be close enough unless BadMoonz for shoota 5shot, 30 S4 AP1 shots hitting on 6s wont do anywhere near as much as that massive point difference will. Dreads would also be tougher to get rid of since they'd be T7 with a 3+ instead of autocannon fodder. Hell, drop 1 skorcha (saving 5pts per dread) and it still has 4 rather rude melee swings.
Deep strike 10 nobs w/ kombi-skorchas in a trukk turn 2, w/ speedwaagh, that's 10D6 autohitting shots at S5 AP -2 1D. That's almost 8 dead space muhreens.
yea and its only like 400pts
idk just take like a bdsw for 90pts and toss out 15 S5 AP-3 D2 shots.
We've got hella options now for good efficient damage 2 weaponry, we don't need to try and kill marines with scorchas/burnas.
Heck - lootas during a speedwaaagh are dumping out 4x S7 Ap-2 D2 shots apiece.
Jidmah wrote: It's fairly clear that trukk boyz are intended to be using trukks. Just explain the whole thing to your opponent, the codex is banned from most bigger events anyways.
think its banned cuz its written so badly? them banning the codex until the event is over makes more sense the more we see the pages of it....
1) Specialist Mobs lose their <clan> keyword in exchange for the Specialist Mobs keyword. This disallows them from benefitting from psychic powers, aura abilities, and critically embarking within transports. Given that Trukk Boyz' rules appear to revolve around being in transports, is this unintended, and instead Specialist Mobs units should retain the <clan> keyword but be exempted from benefitting from the Kultur rule?
2) Speedwaaagh allows ORK VEHICLE keyword units to fire an additional shot with Dakka weapons and gain an additional point of AP. In 'rare rules 9' if a TRANSPORT keyword model is under the effects of a modifier to its ranged attacks, the same modifier applies to embarked models. Do models embarked inside ORK VEHICLE keyword models also fire additional shots with Dakka weapons and gain additional points of AP while a Speedwaagh is in effect?
3) In the Speedwaagh and Evil Sunz kultur rules, models being able to advance and fire assault weapons without penalty is a listed benefit. In the entirety of Codex: Orks, there are only a small handful of assault weapons that do not hit automatically (Kustom Mega Blastas, Squig Launchas, Scorcha Missiles, etc) and there is no unit that can be armed only with Assault weapons. Is this intended to allow units to Advance and shoot with Dakka weapons instead?
4) What, if any, content present in Psychic Awakening: Saga of the Beast is still legal for use? Most of the stratagems, clan-specific psychic powers, subkulturs such as Cheeky Zoggerz etc do not appear to have replacements in the codex.
5) The ability "Grot Gunner and Targetin' Squig" on the Shokkjump Dragsta modifies the ballistic skill of the model when firing certain ranged weapons. However, other models with similar abilities (Gitfinda squig on Flash Gitz, Grot Gunner on several models, Tank Hunters on Tankbustas) add +1 to hit rolls when using certain weapons, which in 9th edition is capped at +1/-1 and therefore would not allow them to be used in conjunction with other abilities (e.g. the Freebootas clan kultur). Are these abilities intended to modify Ballistic skill instead when firing those weapons?
6) Does the restriction for Kustom Jobs only being allowed to be used on single model units also apply to the Mekboy Workshop's "I've got just the fing" ability?
7) The kustom job "extra kustom weapon" is listed under 'mek kustom jobs" but other models than meks/spannas can take kustom mega blastas (deffcoptas, deff dreads). is it intentional that this kustom job can be purchased for those models?
Honestly, I'd add a question if da ded shiny shoota should be able to replace a characters' big shoota as well as kustom shoota. Otherwise the options are real slim. Edit: Same thing with the beastboss, who only has a normal shoota but the targeting squigs says it'll improve the BS of the shoota or any relic that replaces that shoota. You can't replace it with anything though?
Not to harp too much on it, but I'll certainly ask if they screwed up and forgot to update the power stabbas. Paying 5 points to lose out on an extra attack and gain a singular point of AP seems like a horrible trade (vs choppas) or them being more expensive than big choppas even though they're vastly inferior weapons..
NDA on ork codex reviews is out today so we should have some full codex reviews up today. unsure of times but i am sure we will see videos and articles likely this afternoon (eastern time)
We are certain that ap modifiers from the speedwaagh transfer over to the passengers then ? It is a modifier so I guess it makes the cut ! I for one will wait for a "ruling" on this, but I feel confident about hte outcome
Jidmah wrote: It's fairly clear that trukk boyz are intended to be using trukks. Just explain the whole thing to your opponent, the codex is banned from most bigger events anyways.
think its banned cuz its written so badly? them banning the codex until the event is over makes more sense the more we see the pages of it....
The only thing i heard is it was banned because not everyone can get it, it will be fine once it releases normally.
Because for some dumb reason GW is dripfeeding it right now. Simultaneously pissing off their ork fanbase in 3 ways, classic GWlol
Jidmah wrote: It's fairly clear that trukk boyz are intended to be using trukks. Just explain the whole thing to your opponent, the codex is banned from most bigger events anyways.
think its banned cuz its written so badly? them banning the codex until the event is over makes more sense the more we see the pages of it....
The only thing i heard is it was banned because not everyone can get it, it will be fine once it releases normally.
Because for some dumb reason GW is dripfeeding it right now. Simultaneously pissing off their ork fanbase in 3 ways, classic GWlol
the new codex will still likely be banned from tournament play effectively for 2 weeks after release date mostly because lists have to be submitted 2 weeks before the event. you are correct on the availability, most the TOs in my group had the conversation of new limited release codex and the prospect of having 2 different ork codexes at the same event theoretically as soon as the second weekend in august and are instead saying old codex for now only .
well the 2 week thing is usually normal, both because there is ALWAYS something that needs an immediate faq no matter how well its written (technically the admech is the cleanest codex ive seen released, and even it had some dire faq needs....but in their case it was obscenely OP gak lol) and of course that presubmitted list thing.
1) Specialist Mobs lose their <clan> keyword in exchange for the Specialist Mobs keyword. This disallows them from benefitting from psychic powers, aura abilities, and critically embarking within transports. Given that Trukk Boyz' rules appear to revolve around being in transports, is this unintended, and instead Specialist Mobs units should retain the <clan> keyword but be exempted from benefitting from the Kultur rule?
2) Speedwaaagh allows ORK VEHICLE keyword units to fire an additional shot with Dakka weapons and gain an additional point of AP. In 'rare rules 9' if a TRANSPORT keyword model is under the effects of a modifier to its ranged attacks, the same modifier applies to embarked models. Do models embarked inside ORK VEHICLE keyword models also fire additional shots with Dakka weapons and gain additional points of AP while a Speedwaagh is in effect?
3) In the Speedwaagh and Evil Sunz kultur rules, models being able to advance and fire assault weapons without penalty is a listed benefit. In the entirety of Codex: Orks, there are only a small handful of assault weapons that do not hit automatically (Kustom Mega Blastas, Squig Launchas, Scorcha Missiles, etc) and there is no unit that can be armed only with Assault weapons. Is this intended to allow units to Advance and shoot with Dakka weapons instead?
4) What, if any, content present in Psychic Awakening: Saga of the Beast is still legal for use? Most of the stratagems, clan-specific psychic powers, subkulturs such as Cheeky Zoggerz etc do not appear to have replacements in the codex.
5) The ability "Grot Gunner and Targetin' Squig" on the Shokkjump Dragsta modifies the ballistic skill of the model when firing certain ranged weapons. However, other models with similar abilities (Gitfinda squig on Flash Gitz, Grot Gunner on several models, Tank Hunters on Tankbustas) add +1 to hit rolls when using certain weapons, which in 9th edition is capped at +1/-1 and therefore would not allow them to be used in conjunction with other abilities (e.g. the Freebootas clan kultur). Are these abilities intended to modify Ballistic skill instead when firing those weapons?
6) Does the restriction for Kustom Jobs only being allowed to be used on single model units also apply to the Mekboy Workshop's "I've got just the fing" ability?
7) The kustom job "extra kustom weapon" is listed under 'mek kustom jobs" but other models than meks/spannas can take kustom mega blastas (deffcoptas, deff dreads). is it intentional that this kustom job can be purchased for those models?
I'd also add "The Rokkit launcha is listed as 10pts for every unit except Killakanz, where its listed as 15pts. Was this a typo?"
Its the only 9th edition entry i can think of where a weapon has a different cost for a unit but the same cost for other weapons (skorcha still 5pts) and not technically called something different.
Jidmah wrote: It's fairly clear that trukk boyz are intended to be using trukks. Just explain the whole thing to your opponent, the codex is banned from most bigger events anyways.
think its banned cuz its written so badly? them banning the codex until the event is over makes more sense the more we see the pages of it....
The only thing i heard is it was banned because not everyone can get it, it will be fine once it releases normally.
Because for some dumb reason GW is dripfeeding it right now. Simultaneously pissing off their ork fanbase in 3 ways, classic GWlol
the new codex will still likely be banned from tournament play effectively for 2 weeks after release date mostly because lists have to be submitted 2 weeks before the event. you are correct on the availability, most the TOs in my group had the conversation of new limited release codex and the prospect of having 2 different ork codexes at the same event theoretically as soon as the second weekend in august and are instead saying old codex for now only .
Yeah, this. Not to mention the confusion of people who face ork twice in the same event and play against completely different codices each time. Or worse, old orks playing vs new orks.
I was mostly kidding about that. Though tinfoil hats on... maybe they purpesfully drip feed the new codex just so they can get a "beta test" round in before releasing a properly written normal codex....
If GW were doing purely digital codices, then yeah sure. But the lead time to print and distribute books worldwide is months, not weeks. This is just GW doing their normal shenanigans unfortunately
They've been limiting it to specific units (Flayed Ones and Assault Intercessors) or removing it altogether in 9th ed codices, so I'm not surprised. It's also why the Korkscrew kustom job has basically disappeared.
actually im not sure how long it takes them to make edits and print/distribute.
My roommate mentioned Lumineth did that. Their initial "early" battletome had a lot of issues and the proper release one had them fixed.
They've been limiting it to specific units (Flayed Ones and Assault Intercessors) or removing it altogether in 9th ed codices, so I'm not surprised. It's also why the Korkscrew kustom job has basically disappeared.
Which is a good thing, always hated that mechanic of shoot twice / fight twice. It goes faster to just say "double the shots" or "double the numb of attacks", and there is no issue with other interactions. Good riddance !
Vineheart01 wrote: actually im not sure how long it takes them to make edits and print/distribute.
My roommate mentioned Lumineth did that. Their initial "early" battletome had a lot of issues and the proper release one had them fixed.
From what I've been told by friends with direct ties to printing&distribution of books is that any time a reprint has happened within 2-3 months is because the company released the first wave of books fully knowing it was flawed to begin with, and had started the reprinting process before the official release. Which sounds exactly like GWIMO. Anyways, this is offtopic, just don't expect to have a much more polished codex when the standalone codex drops. Obviously they might've caught an error here and there themselves but don't expect any sort of community input to have reached them in time to alter the book
So apparently Flash Gitz arent freeboota locked....but they cost 27pts.
I'm not sure if thats good or not since thats 30" Snazzgunz for Badmoonz Gitz (and potential AP3 but meh that rarely matters getting +1 AP on a 6), mostly given because their Shoot Again is a strat now instead of auto.
<edit ignore this part i had the wrong profile in my head>
The 10pt difference is the big one to me though making flashgitz still underwhelming in the end now that i think about it. Biiiig difference for essentially a shift in power potential.
It needs to be cleaned up but this is my current list of wtffaqs…. Please feel free to add to this list of wtf.
I have some major concerns with the current ork codex including some features that are just broken with how they don’t work. Also the way This codex is constrained by artificial limits on detachment and army builds. It literally prevents us from building viable lists…using some of the rules.
The limit on 1 warboss per detachment. You already have mozgrod, badrukk, warboss, warboss on bike, warboss in mega, beast boss, beast boss on squighound, deffkilla wartrike, (and technically ghaz but he gets his own detachment) as HQ/warbossses that can never be in the same detachment together. It’s a pain to build a list and have enough non clan locked HQs. I’d seriously recommend making besstsnaggas equivilant to a warlord without the warlord tag that limits them. So we could have warboss, speedwagon, snaggaboss as the 3x HQ keyword tags with all 3x being able to waaagh. I’d also remove the warlord tag from badrukk when he is allowed to be taken in any detachment. In reality this only limits him to freebooter detachments or just really broken detachments that has a warlord with 2 clans…..the flip side is ghaz must be your warlord and included in a super command detachment. Since clan relics and clan specific strats are tied to your warlord. If ghaz is included with a main detachment from any clan other then goff he can’t use either clan specific relic or strat!
Limiting each kustom jobs into a single model unit. As limited as detachment slots are why even have the limit to a single model unit.. just leave it as a single model in that unit or the entire unit gets the kustom job as long as we pay the point cost for each model.. neither of those options are broken and doesn’t artificially limit the army list and make filling a detachment a pain.
Specialist Mobs lose their clan; keyword in exchange for the Specialist Mobs keyword. This disallows them from benefitting from psychic powers, aura abilities, and critically embarking within transports. Given that Trukk Boyz' rules appear to revolve around being in transports, is this unintended, and instead Specialist Mobs units should retain the clan keyword but be exempted from benefitting from the Kultur rule? You need to make subkulture replace kulture NOT clan… Furthermore why is specialist limited to 1 per detachment. You are forcing players to take multiple detachments now. At worst you should allow one specialist/subkulture per detachment and allow the player to make both boy squad troops into trukk boys.
You nerfed Gretchin even more. Even your new zodgrod named won’t make the superrunts useful. Worst still you made most Gretchin units like killakans subpar since they are not able to use kultures. Even if you allowed Gretchin to have kultures this will only make units such as mekguns and killakans playable (not even that strong). Outside of reducing the price of a Gretchin unit to 4ppm I’m not sure how you can make that unit playable it’s just bad right now. Maybe zodgrod can make his superrunts objective secured as well?
Speedwaaagh allows ORK VEHICLE keyword units to fire an additional shot with Dakka weapons and gain an additional point of AP. In 'rare rules 9' if a TRANSPORT keyword model is under the effects of a modifier to its ranged attacks, the same modifier applies to embarked models. Do models embarked inside ORK VEHICLE keyword models also fire additional shots with Dakka weapons and gain additional points of AP while a Speedwaagh is in effect?
In the Speedwaagh and Evil Sunz kultur rules, models being able to advance and fire assault weapons without penalty is a listed benefit. In the entirety of Codex: Orks, there are only a small handful of assault weapons that do not hit automatically (Kustom Mega Blastas, Squig Launchas, Scorcha Missiles, etc) and there is no unit that can be armed only with Assault weapons. this should allow units to Advance and shoot with Dakka weapons as well.
Talking about weakest kulturs bloodaxe is just bad.. the 18in cover needs to be 12in. I think this is universally considered the worst kulture by far and it was already considered bad in the 8th Ed codex.
All the +1 to hit abilities that don’t stack. You need to fix this it’s insane. Almost every buff is a +1 to hit and you capped this to -1/+1. Here is just a list off the top of my head.
All warbosses +1 hit in melee aura
Snagga boss +1 to hit melee aura to snagga only
All snaggas +1 to hit vehicle and monsters
Tankbustas +1 to hit vehicles
Freebooters +1 to hit kultur
Mekboss buzz grob +1 to hit on any dread unit
Waaagh banner +1 to hit melee aura
Zodgrod superrunts +1 to hit Gretchin unit
And the grot gunners, gitfinders, wing missiles, etc adding +1 to hit
Snikrot +1 hit bloodaxe commandos
I might have missed a few in there too.. personally I think snaggaboys should get +1 to wound vs vehicles and monsters. They already have several ways to get +1 to hit.
The ability "Grot Gunner and Targetin' Squig" on the Shokkjump Dragsta modifies the ballistic skill of the model when firing certain ranged weapons. However, other models with similar abilities (Gitfinda squig on Flash Gitz, Grot Gunner on several models, Tank Hunters on Tankbustas) add +1 to hit rolls when using certain weapons, which in 9th edition is capped at +1/-1 and therefore would not allow them to be used in conjunction with other abilities (e.g. the Freebootas clan kultur). these abilities should also modify Ballistic skill instead when firing those weapons.
the Waagh banner should be changed to +1 to any hit (instead of melee) since a lot of units and auras already are +1 to hit in melee and add reroll failed morale tests. You kind of busted using units larger then 10+ now because of morale issues. Maybe give him the “option” to take a powerklaw or give him cybork body (5++) since half his body is literally cybork. Basically the Waagh banner is redundant and fairly useless and overpriced.
Ere we go not rolling either or both die. This small change helps orks get into melee and has been one of the main reasons orks were a slightly more reliable assault army.
Tankbustas not being allowed to move and fire heavy weapons without a penalty to hit..I’m not exactly sure why this unit is being made harder to transport or teleport or use. It was already nerfed with the reroll to hit changed to +1 to hit on vehicles only. Basically allow them to move and fire again. I don’t care if it’s a special rule added or if battlewagons are allowed to transport units without counting as the unit moving. The battlewagon change itself would help several bad units such as lootas as well.
There is also a bunch of strats that make no sense at 2cp like breaking heads costing 2cp when the generic auto pass morale is already 2cp and does not cause Mortal wounds. I’m sure people have a list of strats that need to be reduced in cost from 2cp to 1cp and even then it’s not likely to fix some of them from being useful. Another example is the kff strat that cost 2cp? For a single turn once per game ability to increase your 30pt equipment upgrade from 6++ to 5++ and on top of that destroys it for the rest of the game.. at 2cp it was a once a game first turn alpha strike protection but the removing the 6++ portion for the rest of game makes the 30pt upgrade worthless and most times the unit carrying it big Mek on foot for example has zero reason to be on the board. This should be a 0cp strat that removes the item from game or a 2cp strat that doesn’t remove the item. This is just another unnecessary restriction placed on ork lists.
All the clan specific psychic powers from saga of the beast have disappeared. Are these no longer valid from this fairly recent book.
da ded shiny shoota should be able to replace a characters' big shoota and shoota as well as kustom shoota. Otherwise the options are real slim.
Why is the power stabbas Paying 5 points to lose out on an extra attack and gain a singular point of AP seems like a horrible trade (vs choppas) or them being more expensive than big choppas even though they're vastly inferior weapons?
Why are rokkits listed as 15 points instead of the normal 10pts for killakans. You already neutered Gretchin units enough.
The Morkanaut and gorknaut are barely playable as a superheavy.. the fact they no longer benefit from any kustom jobs, kultures, etc and are relegated to the superheavy auxiliary detachment places them in the useless territory. I’m not sure how to fix this unless you allow clan benefits and kustom jobs on the SH auxiliary and even then I’m not sure they are worth playing.
tulun wrote: A gotcha for y'all thinking of mixing clans:
It looks like you're locked out of clan relics and stratagems of clans other than your Warlord's.
IE: If you take a Goffs warlord and an evil suns detachment, you cannot use Drive by Krumpin period, or take Red Makka armour.
Warlord traits seem to be takable as normal with the stratagem.
Sucks, as some of the clan relics and strats are the best ones in the codex.
That stings if true. If you don’t get the strats or relics feels a bit pointless to mix.
It may need a clarification, but this is the language under CLAN STRATAGEMS section, for example:
"Each clan has an associated clan stratagem. If your army is led by an Orks <CLAN> walord, you can spend CP to use this stratagem in addition to those on pages 62-64"
tulun wrote: A gotcha for y'all thinking of mixing clans:
It looks like you're locked out of clan relics and stratagems of clans other than your Warlord's.
IE: If you take a Goffs warlord and an evil suns detachment, you cannot use Drive by Krumpin period, or take Red Makka armour.
Warlord traits seem to be takable as normal with the stratagem.
Sucks, as some of the clan relics and strats are the best ones in the codex.
That stings if true. If you don’t get the strats or relics feels a bit pointless to mix.
It may need a clarification, but this is the language under CLAN STRATAGEMS section, for example:
"Each clan has an associated clan stratagem. If your army is led by an Orks <CLAN> walord, you can spend CP to use this stratagem in addition to those on pages 62-64"
This kind of screws ghaz too..
He is in the supreme command detachment and must be your warlord.
So if your main detachment is anything other than Goff. Your warlord decides which clan relic and clan specific strat you can use. Ghaz forces you to only use goff clan specific relic and strat which can only be used on a goff unit….
The flip side is badrukk has 2 clans and flashgitz can be taken in any detachment. Meaning badrukk can use either clan relic or strat and can use the freebooter relic and strats on any flashgitz unit in the main detachment. And freebooters have one fo the best relic and clan strats.
tulun wrote: A gotcha for y'all thinking of mixing clans:
It looks like you're locked out of clan relics and stratagems of clans other than your Warlord's.
IE: If you take a Goffs warlord and an evil suns detachment, you cannot use Drive by Krumpin period, or take Red Makka armour.
Warlord traits seem to be takable as normal with the stratagem.
Sucks, as some of the clan relics and strats are the best ones in the codex.
That stings if true. If you don’t get the strats or relics feels a bit pointless to mix.
It may need a clarification, but this is the language under CLAN STRATAGEMS section, for example:
"Each clan has an associated clan stratagem. If your army is led by an Orks <CLAN> walord, you can spend CP to use this stratagem in addition to those on pages 62-64"
This kind of screws ghaz too..
He is in the supreme command detachment and must be your warlord.
So if your main detachment is anything other than Goff. Your warlord decides which clan relic and clan specific strat you can use. Ghaz forces you to only use goff clan specific relic and strat which can only be used on a goff unit….
The flip side is badrukk has 2 clans and flashgitz can be taken in any detachment. Meaning badrukk can use either clan relic or strat and can use the freebooter relic and strats on any flashgitz unit in the main detachment. And freebooters have one fo the best relic and clan strats.
None of this is surprising to me and is most likely the way GW intended it. They do NOT want us running mixed forces. Anyone running Ghaz in a deffskullz list is expecting to lose the goffs related strats/relics/etc. It's just the way it is.
Has anyone run the numbers on the new Stompa yet? Are there any new stratagems/Kustom Jobs that make it spicy? I'm in the middle of a scratch build right now.
tulun wrote: A gotcha for y'all thinking of mixing clans:
It looks like you're locked out of clan relics and stratagems of clans other than your Warlord's.
IE: If you take a Goffs warlord and an evil suns detachment, you cannot use Drive by Krumpin period, or take Red Makka armour.
Warlord traits seem to be takable as normal with the stratagem.
Sucks, as some of the clan relics and strats are the best ones in the codex.
That stings if true. If you don’t get the strats or relics feels a bit pointless to mix.
It may need a clarification, but this is the language under CLAN STRATAGEMS section, for example:
"Each clan has an associated clan stratagem. If your army is led by an Orks <CLAN> walord, you can spend CP to use this stratagem in addition to those on pages 62-64"
This kind of screws ghaz too..
He is in the supreme command detachment and must be your warlord.
So if your main detachment is anything other than Goff. Your warlord decides which clan relic and clan specific strat you can use. Ghaz forces you to only use goff clan specific relic and strat which can only be used on a goff unit….
The flip side is badrukk has 2 clans and flashgitz can be taken in any detachment. Meaning badrukk can use either clan relic or strat and can use the freebooter relic and strats on any flashgitz unit in the main detachment. And freebooters have one fo the best relic and clan strats.
None of this is surprising to me and is most likely the way GW intended it. They do NOT want us running mixed forces. Anyone running Ghaz in a deffskullz list is expecting to lose the goffs related strats/relics/etc. It's just the way it is.
Has anyone run the numbers on the new Stompa yet? Are there any new stratagems/Kustom Jobs that make it spicy? I'm in the middle of a scratch build right now.
Yes but you also loose the deffskulls strats and relics…
And your objection doesn’t jive with badrukk double dipping and doing the opposite.
There are no relics usable by stompas. You can only get a kulture and kustom job in a super heavy detachment with 3x superheavies and in that detachment only 1 mork or gork can get a single specialist unit of big krumpaz instead of whichever kulture you chose. And only 1 KJ on a non specialist unit. Strats are all kind of blah. Shokka hulk seems cool on stompa, more Dakka is kinda a waste with only 3 Dakka weapons on stompa and 2 on gork… orkamatic pistons seems cool on gork. Nothing crazy.
It also gives a bonus on shooting to the trukk itself, not the models within it? So basically the single big shoota? What a bizarre little add on lol. That's not even a complaint as I love it overall. Just... the tiniest of add ons to go with it.
Based on the wording of the advanced rule that we referenced above, the +1 to hit modifier for the trukk is passed on to models embarked within it. So as the scottsman stated, shoota boyz w/ the trukk boyz spec mob inside a trukk get BS 4+. Then during the speedwaagh their shootas become Dakka 4/3 S4 AP-1 D1. 12 shootas in a trukk w/in 9" get 48 shots at S4, AP-1, D1, hitting on 4s. That kills 3 space marines. Not bad IMO.
i pointed this out on the warhammer ork facebook group and was called "that guy".
feth those guys then, because as far as i know thats how the rare rule work. i hadnt thought about the speed waagh just the trukk boy +1 to hit for the trukk which is passed on to the models embarked.
Also a unit of regular nobz with big choppa/choppa piling out of a trukk then charging is going to be putting out a lot of damage, especially if you can clear anything screening enough to fit them through to whatever was being screened as that won't want a mob of ork nobz smashing into it.
You just drive towards an objective, murder whatever is there and keep it for yourself and enjoy the 10VP swing. That's the main reason I'd prefer MANz over nobz, they have a higher chance to survive till your next command phase.
I'm certain that the faq will not allow advance and fire with dakka weapon, even for evil sunz. Why? Because that would allow units such as lootas advance and fire with deffguns..
Jidmah wrote: To add something positive... Trukk boyz (assuming they do work) can be NOB(Z) units. MANz are a NOBZ unit.
Just in case you were missing MANz missiles.
yea it looks amazing.im not too happy about the Mega Nobz as whole though with the killsaw change. I dont like the new kill saws (id rather have 2 flat damage over D3) but i understand why they were changed as they were an auto pick. but they dont really seem like a better choice than power klaws over anymore yet they cost more dont they? Except of course for the fact you get 1 more attack with 2 of them which i do like. but if im not mistaken, you can now have a killsaw and a kustom shoota / other ranged weapon. not sure why i would do that. I would never pay for a single killsaw for 5 more points, as a single killsaw isnt really that much better than the new power klaw.
But is that 1 extra attack really worth the extra 10 points?. And maybe its just me, but i dont want to pay 5 extra points for D3 damage over flat 2. D3 damage seem.. not better really. sure you get -4 AP over -3AP but -3AP is still very good. So the question would be if the extra 10 points is worth the extra attack.
Is that extra attack on all of them making up for all the shooting power at least 1 more MANZ will have + durbility and attacks of an extra model. 5 MANZ with killsaws is 225 points. 6 MANZ with powerklaw and shoota is 210. so you get 1 more MANZ in your trukk boys kit if you dont go killsaws. But then theres blast rules to worry about i guess.
Will i try and throw them in a trukk as trukkboys speciality? yea i think so. But id probably do it more often with normal Nobs given how easy a trukk is to destroy. Destroy the trukk and your mega nobz are essentially clanless as all they could do was disembark after movement.
So i can see myself running normal nobz this way more i feel. But i will definitely try out the MANZ missile.
Jidmah wrote: Thinking of screens is 8th edition talk
You just drive towards an objective, murder whatever is there and keep it for yourself and enjoy the 10VP swing. That's the main reason I'd prefer MANz over nobz, they have a higher chance to survive till your next command phase.
Are people under the assumption that the trukk boys thing that, due to advanced rules, allows the boys inside to gain +1 to hit to shooting because the trukk gets +1?
Beardedragon wrote: Are people under the assumption that the trukk boys thing that, due to advanced rules, allows the boys inside to gain +1 to hit to shooting because the trukk gets +1?
Or do you expect an FAQ for it?
Well as much I would like drive-by-shooting orks, the rule specifically states "Trukk model" meaning +1 only affects it.
Beardedragon wrote: Are people under the assumption that the trukk boys thing that, due to advanced rules, allows the boys inside to gain +1 to hit to shooting because the trukk gets +1?
Or do you expect an FAQ for it?
Well as much I would like drive-by-shooting orks, the rule specifically states "Trukk model" meaning +1 only affects it.
Although that really doesn't make sense to me.
but the advanced rule would let the boys receive a modifier because the trukk receives it?
Freebootaz:
Wartrike
Any other shooty HQs, probably even badrukk or sag mek
3*15 lootas in wagons (bigshoota mek)
A bunch of buggies
Just spend those cp for extra detachments, you won't be needing them in such list too often.
If you have adequate los, pop speed waagh turn 1 and just wreck your opponent from across the board with your mighty d2-3 mass shooting. With extra shots and AP.
Lots of kommandos and stormboyz (i assume for secondaries).
Warbikes
like 3 Squiggbuggy shooting everywhere from nowhere
trukk with megawarboss (i supose converted) and boyz
Lots of kommandos and stormboyz (i assume for secondaries). Warbikes like 3 Squiggbuggy shooting everywhere from nowhere trukk with megawarboss (i supose converted) and boyz
well that sucks. i have neither squigbuggies nor stormboy xD
i am trying to make a list...
stupid question... why would i bother with 12 snaggaz in a trukk for 202 points, when for the same costs i could bring EIGHT squigriders?
RedNoak wrote: i am trying to make a list...
stupid question... why would i bother with 12 snaggaz in a trukk for 202 points, when for the same costs i could bring EIGHT squigriders?
Both cost roughly 200 points
Resilience:
8 squigriders have 24 T6 wounds 4+
while trukk and snaggaz have 10 T6 4+ wounds + 13 T5 wounds 6++ wounds
Hopefully we don’t have to wait for a faq for 3 weeks after the actual codex release at the end of august and instead we get the faq in august before it’s wide release.
I already sent my feedback I don’t expect a lot of actual changes and maybe just errataing specialist clan rules.
RedNoak wrote: i am trying to make a list...
stupid question... why would i bother with 12 snaggaz in a trukk for 202 points, when for the same costs i could bring EIGHT squigriders?
Both cost roughly 200 points
Resilience:
8 squigriders have 24 T6 wounds 4+
while trukk and snaggaz have 10 T6 4+ wounds + 13 T5 wounds 6++ wounds
Trukk is faster though (2”) but riders have a bigger charge range (2”)
I don't understand these type comparisons. Squig riders are in the fast attack slot. Trukk boyz are troops. They serve two completely different roles in any army. One is required in some detachments, one isn't. One is obsec, one isn't. You are comparing apples to oranges.
the issue is for some reason GW treats troops like a tax rather than a backbone of an army.
The elite stuff should be few but instead its troopers. Nobody wants to bring troops beyond the minimum requirement.
Vineheart01 wrote: the issue is for some reason GW treats troops like a tax rather than a backbone of an army.
The elite stuff should be few but instead its troopers. Nobody wants to bring troops beyond the minimum requirement.
RedNoak wrote: i am trying to make a list... stupid question... why would i bother with 12 snaggaz in a trukk for 202 points, when for the same costs i could bring EIGHT squigriders?
Both cost roughly 200 points
Resilience: 8 squigriders have 24 T6 wounds 4+ while trukk and snaggaz have 10 T6 4+ wounds + 13 T5 wounds 6++ wounds
Trukk is faster though (2”) but riders have a bigger charge range (2”)
I don't understand these type comparisons. Squig riders are in the fast attack slot. Trukk boyz are troops. They serve two completely different roles in any army. One is required in some detachments, one isn't. One is obsec, one isn't. You are comparing apples to oranges.
yes and in my army there are apples, oranges, melons, some steaks and a couple of tofu blocks. each competing with one another to be fielded. so yeah one is obsec (genuially a great point btw) but both need to get upfield and krump things off the objective. so yeah when one apple is far worse than the other orange, why bother with the apple? (as an instrument of damage dealing, if you just want obsec stick with boyz i guess?)
I'd also add "The Rokkit launcha is listed as 10pts for every unit except Killakanz, where its listed as 15pts. Was this a typo?"
Its the only 9th edition entry i can think of where a weapon has a different cost for a unit but the same cost for other weapons (skorcha still 5pts) and not technically called something different.
The only one?
Power Klaw 10 points warboss stormboyz warbikers and boyz
Power Klaw 8 points Nobs
Power Klaw 5 points Kommandos
Big Choppa 5 points Boyz warbikers and Kommandos
Big Choppa 3 points Nobs
Big Mek in Mega Armour 4" movement speed
Mega Nobz, Mega Boss - 5" movement speed
Choppa has no AP on Big Mek.
---
I'm really having trouble figuring out what to fill the 2nd HQ slot in a battalion with.
With a restriction on only one warboss or speedboss, that leaves makari, painboss, weirdboy, wurrboy, Zag, big mek and Snikrot.
Three are named characters who are clan specific. Big Mek just doesn't seem appealing with the inherent cost. Painboss heal is snagga locked. Makari has an FNP aura on the cheap but does nothing else. Weirdboy isn't that appealing. This sucks.
I'd also add "The Rokkit launcha is listed as 10pts for every unit except Killakanz, where its listed as 15pts. Was this a typo?"
Its the only 9th edition entry i can think of where a weapon has a different cost for a unit but the same cost for other weapons (skorcha still 5pts) and not technically called something different.
The only one?
Power Klaw 10 points warboss stormboyz warbikers and boyz
Power Klaw 8 points Nobs
Power Klaw 5 points Kommandos
Big Choppa 5 points Boyz warbikers and Kommandos
Big Choppa 3 points Nobs
kommando nob must take a big choppa, no? So 5pts is difference?
And discount for nobz squads is probably due to concentration of weaponry - you have to kill the whole squad to get to the lone PK/BC in normal squads where the nob is the sarge. also the base cost of the nobz in the nobz squads are higher (18) vs the boss nobz in boyz/kommandos squads.
I feel the same way filling out battalions. Weirdboyz no longer feel like an auto take and the KFF is really pricey for what it is. The only HQ I really want multiples of are bosses and they're one per detachment.
gungo wrote: Hopefully we don’t have to wait for a faq for 3 weeks after the actual codex release at the end of august and instead we get the faq in august before it’s wide release.
I already sent my feedback I don’t expect a lot of actual changes and maybe just errataing specialist clan rules.
The problem with the people here is, that you don 't trust me. I said a long time ago, we' ll have a codex in Orktober. Well.. it seems to be little non-standard way but I will be true.
Fake release now.
Real release with the same bugs (because it has to been already printed, there is no other way) in September, than about month for FAQ to make it actualy working - voalá Orktober!
Anyone noticed the 5++ 9in kff strat destroys the kff rest of game. That’s a pricey 1 turn game effect. Couldn’t they just leave the once a game limit.
gungo wrote: Anyone noticed the 5++ 9in kff strat destroys the kff rest of game. That’s a pricey 1 turn game effect. Couldn’t they just leave the once a game limit.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA...
god DAMN there are parts of this codex that really feel like malice. Like the fact that they removed Cheeky Zoggers and replaced it with the new specialist ladz thing for grots and described it as "your grots are all covered in gak and piss and they stink SO BAD that they get obsec, AND they make your army -1 to hit because feth you."
gungo wrote: Anyone noticed the 5++ 9in kff strat destroys the kff rest of game. That’s a pricey 1 turn game effect. Couldn’t they just leave the once a game limit.
I can't believe they did this... Wtf where they thinking ? Do they hate Orks (and Orks players) so much ??
gungo wrote: Anyone noticed the 5++ 9in kff strat destroys the kff rest of game. That’s a pricey 1 turn game effect. Couldn’t they just leave the once a game limit.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA...
god DAMN there are parts of this codex that really feel like malice. Like the fact that they removed Cheeky Zoggers and replaced it with the new specialist ladz thing for grots and described it as "your grots are all covered in gak and piss and they stink SO BAD that they get obsec, AND they make your army -1 to hit because feth you."
It's really feeling a lot like the design studio had an ork player who helped engineer and write the 8th edition codex, and then that person left before any work on the 9th ed one started, so the remainder of the non-ork playing design team just kind of threw random stuff together and pulled a "voila! It's orky!" on us.
Dendarien wrote: I feel the same way filling out battalions. Weirdboyz no longer feel like an auto take and the KFF is really pricey for what it is. The only HQ I really want multiples of are bosses and they're one per detachment.
I know it’s clan locked but I really like zagstruk stormboys are so good and he’s not only great klaw nob but his morale aura is the best in the codex. Reducing all casualties by half for stormboys (rounded down) essentially means you will never lose more then 1-2 models to a failed morale even with a max unit.
Lots of kommandos and stormboyz (i assume for secondaries).
Warbikes
like 3 Squiggbuggy shooting everywhere from nowhere
trukk with megawarboss (i supose converted) and boyz
Hah hah that is exactly my list my game Saturday. Kommandos are for mudering stuff (Goff) and stormboyz art for stealing primaries (deathskulls). 3*1 sguigbuggies (deathskulls) to get rid of pesky hiding stuff.
And also play a mega boss and boys !! (Goff) hah hah that is funny, apparently others have come to the same conclusions regarding this codex
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah i dont see myself ever using that unless i desperately needed a unit to not die that turn.
Assuming they dont immediately faq it to once again go "Oops we forgot to say its shooting only" that 5++ does apply in melee.
I don’t think you lose the KFF after using the strat, you guys are overinterpreting what is written. You get 5++ against shooting then it goes back to being a regular kff
If I deal enough damage to have killed the trukk out from under the squighogs, ive killed 3 out of one unit of 4 and I have a 50-50 shot of taking a fourth as a bonus from morale.
If I wanted to use any multidamage s<8 guns on them, I wouldnt have ramshackle to get through.
I have reduced the squighogs combat effectiveness by half.
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah i dont see myself ever using that unless i desperately needed a unit to not die that turn.
Assuming they dont immediately faq it to once again go "Oops we forgot to say its shooting only" that 5++ does apply in melee.
I don’t think you lose the KFF after using the strat, you guys are overinterpreting what is written. You get 5++ against shooting then it goes back to being a regular kff
Its literally cut off in the original leak image dawg look at the one that is a pic of the strat page.
You know what would be orky and make the kff actually cool and orky…
If they simply made the kff strat cost 0cp
Making this strat free and once per game would be orky and a last resort sort of thing instead of the first turn once per game 2cp strat. You can use it first turn but the cost would be permant loss. Or use it late game like 3rd turn or later.
The KFF stratagem "problem" wouldn't be so bad if that mek had something productive to do after the KFF burned out aside from fix vehicels and if it wasn't the only KFF. I again wish twe could put that shinny shoota on a basic KFF Mek, or give him something worth the trouble.
I'd leave him on the home objective or something.
warhead01 wrote: The KFF stratagem "problem" wouldn't be so bad if that mek had something productive to do after the KFF burned out aside from fix vehicels and if it wasn't the only KFF. I again wish twe could put that shinny shoota on a basic KFF Mek, or give him something worth the trouble. I'd leave him on the home objective or something.
Why does GW hate Orks so much.
Because for some reason we inherently have to have downsides for the abilities that other armies have baseline and don't have to worry about. It gives me WFB vibes of how OnG were the only faction that had to deal with Animosity type rules on top of generally average to poor leadership.
I swear that most of the Ork players on this thread could have done a better job at this point.
I still can’t believe how low this blow is, even for fething GW… I agree with the fact that this strat should have been 0 cp, or if kff was 6++ within 9’ and not 6’
And the fact that we were leaked only part of the text makes it so much worse…
MrStressy wrote: Because orks having a KFF was the thing that broke the game balance right guys...right ?...
Yes exactly! I mean have you seen the T5 on our units?? How would a 6++ be fair on a T5 troop unit? Next youll tell me that 30pts isnt a fair price for the KFF...
addnid wrote: I still can’t believe how low this blow is, even for fething GW… I agree with the fact that this strat should have been 0 cp, or if kff was 6++ within 9’ and not 6’
And the fact that we were leaked only part of the text makes it so much worse…
That is pretty bad. It's the same crap they pulled with the Resurrection Orb. 30 points for a one use item is just bad.
MrStressy wrote: Because orks having a KFF was the thing that broke the game balance right guys...right ?...
The issue is/was that the KFF was an auto-take not that it was OP or broken.
To be honest I wasn't the biggest fan of the KFF being an auto take.
BUT they really hit it with the nerfhammer and then salted that wound with the expensive self destruct stratagem no one will ever take
It wasn't all that auto-take either depending on the type of list you used in 8th ed. It was somewhat redundant in a buggy list, needing a Morkanaut or Wazbom Blastajet to really get a radius wide enough to actually project against your buggies which was also usually unnecessary with the baseline deffskull 6++ save. It was more useful for Green Tide based lists and supporting Mek Gun batteries.
Either way, GW went about the wrong way about this completely and the KFF may as well be a non-option at this point. The fact that the KFF explodey strat is taking up space for something that could be more impactful is what makes this so much more frustrating.
pepi55 wrote: Its also the only thing giving any survivability to orks
Yes, but the KFF was always an attempt to make your run of the mill Ork infantry something they were not.
And what exactly would that be? In an edition where cover is almost impossible to give most Ork boyz units (assuming you weren't going MSU) and a 5+ armour save is effectively nothing against the plethora of AP-1 and AP-2 weaponry, this is the only save Orks will usually get. It's not like you get it for free.
I also agree with the "that strat should cost 0 cp" because the real cost is your equipment being broken. 2 CP is just adding insult to the injury.
Wonder how it would be going if the space marine stormshield was released with a 5++ and a strat at 2 CP for a 4++ a the shield shutting down right after. Or same thing with the Riptide...
MrStressy wrote: Because orks having a KFF was the thing that broke the game balance right guys...right ?...
The issue is/was that the KFF was an auto-take not that it was OP or broken.
To be honest I wasn't the biggest fan of the KFF being an auto take.
BUT they really hit it with the nerfhammer and then salted that wound with the expensive self destruct stratagem no one will ever take
It wasn't all that auto-take either depending on the type of list you used in 8th ed. It was somewhat redundant in a buggy list, needing a Morkanaut or Wazbom Blastajet to really get a radius wide enough to actually project against your buggies which was also usually unnecessary with the baseline deffskull 6++ save. It was more useful for Green Tide based lists and supporting Mek Gun batteries.
Either way, GW went about the wrong way about this completely and the KFF may as well be a non-option at this point. The fact that the KFF explodey strat is taking up space for something that could be more impactful is what makes this so much more frustrating.
I mean, I'm still running a KFF big mek in mega armor with the kustom weapons KJ because the Mek is good without the KFF and I'd rather spend 30 pts for a 6++ with a 6" aura than 65 points for a 6+++ with a 3" aura for the Goffs horde that I plan on running. I think your gripes are more with the regular big mek with KFF rather than the KFF itself.
pepi55 wrote: Its also the only thing giving any survivability to orks
Yes, but the KFF was always an attempt to make your run of the mill Ork infantry something they were not.
And what exactly would that be? In an edition where cover is almost impossible to give most Ork boyz units (assuming you weren't going MSU) and a 5+ armour save is effectively nothing against the plethora of AP-1 and AP-2 weaponry, this is the only save Orks will usually get. It's not like you get it for free.
It's that orks have always been tough but never a really armoured force. I think the infantry wide T5 buff still edges out the KFF nerf at least for me.
pepi55 wrote: Its also the only thing giving any survivability to orks
Yes, but the KFF was always an attempt to make your run of the mill Ork infantry something they were not.
And what exactly would that be? In an edition where cover is almost impossible to give most Ork boyz units (assuming you weren't going MSU) and a 5+ armour save is effectively nothing against the plethora of AP-1 and AP-2 weaponry, this is the only save Orks will usually get. It's not like you get it for free.
It's that orks have always been tough but never a really armoured force. I think the infantry wide T5 buff still edges out the KFF nerf at least for me.
pepi55 wrote: Its also the only thing giving any survivability to orks
Yes, but the KFF was always an attempt to make your run of the mill Ork infantry something they were not.
Competitive?
Boyz not a competitive choice ?
You're playing the wrong faction if you want armour saves on your core unit
That's the thing though. We're not passing saves on a 3+ or 2+, we were passing on a 5++, which isn't exactly something that is "armoured". Would you call Chaos Daemons an armoured force? Keep in mind this invuln is limited to shooting only and range dependent, not to mention aura based which can be shut off by several abilities.
pepi55 wrote: Its also the only thing giving any survivability to orks
Yes, but the KFF was always an attempt to make your run of the mill Ork infantry something they were not.
And what exactly would that be? In an edition where cover is almost impossible to give most Ork boyz units (assuming you weren't going MSU) and a 5+ armour save is effectively nothing against the plethora of AP-1 and AP-2 weaponry, this is the only save Orks will usually get. It's not like you get it for free.
It's that orks have always been tough but never a really armoured force. I think the infantry wide T5 buff still edges out the KFF nerf at least for me.
People were banking on trukk boys in that poll… with the actual rules out now a single trukk boy unit will be decent but I’m not sure what will be my second troop.
I have to admit, I see why GW doesnt want KFF to be a mainstain in orks armies and lists. The horde of footsloging meele infantry with 5++ are demons, not orks.
Galas wrote: I have to admit, I see why GW doesnt want KFF to be a mainstain in orks armies and lists. The horde of footsloging meele infantry with 5++ are demons, not orks.
The funny part is that Daemons don't even do that with their current army. They're mainly soup/monster spam at the moment. Frankly they clearly don't want hordes of most types at all (barring outliers like skitarii for some reason), given how they changed mob rule, took away the attack buff from mobz of 20+. If that's the case, at least make the KFF functional, I'd take a -1S from enemy ranged attacks aura buff, at least it'd synergize with our new ramshackle more.
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah i dont see myself ever using that unless i desperately needed a unit to not die that turn.
Assuming they dont immediately faq it to once again go "Oops we forgot to say its shooting only" that 5++ does apply in melee.
I don’t think you lose the KFF after using the strat, you guys are overinterpreting what is written. You get 5++ against shooting then it goes back to being a regular kff
It literally says twice, you cannot use the KFF for the rest of the battle. Then it says you cannot use the strategem for the rest of the battle.
It could not be more explicit. The KFF dies after you use the strategem.
Has the KFF thing already been erratad on the digital version? Im looking at a compilation and it doesnt say thing bout oneturn use or that it blows up.
Maybe there is a good use for the FKK + strat.
What about trying to tellyport a Big Mek in with maybe 60 or 90 storm boys all landing near him the timing is difficult the strat works on the other player turn, so I guess that's at least that 6++ for the overwatch and in close combat for a big chunk of Orks then turn on the strat the next turn? But try to get everything ready to charge and also call da WAAAGH. If it can be done that might be the ballgame right there.
If the KFF is disposable now then maybe throwing it at the enemy is a good way to use it?
I'm really trying to figure out a good use for it.
I like that the Deff Kopptas get that big bomb again and the blast will hit more than 1 unit now.
Dr.Duck wrote: Has the KFF thing already been erratad on the digital version? Im looking at a compilation and it doesnt say thing bout oneturn use or that it blows up.
That image looks like it is cut off
And considering the actual book scans show the full rule.. I wouldn’t go by the half app screenshot.
Dr.Duck wrote: Has the KFF thing already been erratad on the digital version? Im looking at a compilation and it doesnt say thing bout oneturn use or that it blows up.
I think it's a coin flip as to whether the digital version or the print version are filled with more mistakes at this point. Who knows.
Both of them have obvious errors. But regardless, the print one well....it went to print. That means somebody proofread it and it passed the testing phase to production to the point of being physically in a person's hands. I'd trust a complete ruleset over a poor copy that may have been made a few weeks or months after the final drafts went out to production. The digital version seems like a bad backup transcription.
But there's a good chance of things being FAQ'd, for example, the digital version doesn't say anything about a limit on the number of specialist mobs, and it doesn't explicitly say that you remove the clan keyword, so it's possible it includes an errata that the print version doesn't have that somebody noticed somewhere down the pipeline and deliberately edited out.
Conversely, the print version seems better written and more coherent, and if someone is explicitly defining what you can't do, it suggests greater intent.
KFF has always been autotake because it solved a fundamental flaw in our army: we have no save to speak of. What few things do have a proper save are not in large enough numbers to overwhelm the high AP out there.
KFF remedied that to a degree because of invul saves, at the cost of an HQ slot and somewhat restricting movement. Or in ancient times, a cover save which was effectively the same thing back then but had the potential to get countered via Ignores Cover.
You dont solve an autotake problem by simply removing it essentially, you fix why it was auto take to begin with. Especially a DEFENSIVE auto take, offensive ones could easily just be considered too good for the price but a defensive one could (and was) easily our only real option for defense, even more so when cover got jacked up from static saves to +1 and affected by AP for some dumb reason.
That strat should either not blow up the KFF or be free. Fething insult.
I would be fine about the KFF being garbage if I didn't feel obligated to take a second HQ that wasn't a warboss to fill out a minimum slot battalion.
Other than picking a Painboss or Zagstrukk I don't know what else would be a good option.
It's Big Mek, Big Mek, Big Mek, Weird Boy, Wurrboy, Painboss, then named characters. That's it. There's so few selections once you pick one of the half dozen varieties of warboss.
I guess you could just take the MA Big Mek without the KFF since it's kind of trash and save 30 points. I just would rather take another warboss. Or a Painboss, if that wasn't snagga only on the heal.
TedNugent wrote: I would be fine about the KFF being garbage if I didn't feel obligated to take a second HQ that wasn't a warboss to fill out a minimum slot battalion.
Other than picking a Painboss or Zagstrukk I don't know what else would be a good option.
It's Big Mek, Big Mek, Big Mek, Weird Boy, Wurrboy, Painboss, then named characters. That's it. There's so few selections once you pick one of the half dozen varieties of warboss.
I guess you could just take the MA Big Mek without the KFF since it's kind of trash and save 30 points. I just would rather take another warboss. Or a Painboss, if that wasn't snagga only on the heal.
Yeah, bizarrely, even though we got "more" HQ's this time around with the codex, our HQ selection still isn't so hot. Painbosses only working with Snaggas and having inferior gear to Painboyz makes no sense. MA Big Mek is way more worth it than the regular Big Mek with KFF is now. The MA Warboss or even Warboss on Warbike is a lot better than the one on Foot, I don't see why you'd take him now. It's kind of all over the place.
I think beastboss should not have a warlord keyword but instead beastboss keyword and I think beastboss should be allowed to call a Waagh and the restriction should be only 1 of each warboss, beastboss and speedboss.
In the ork hierarchy it should be ghaz, warboss, beastboss/speedboss/boss snikrot/boss zagstrukk/kaptain badrukk, bigmek/painboss, Nobs/painboy/Mek, boyz, Gretchin
I’m fine with only choosing 1 of each
1 warboss or warboss in mega armor,
1 beastboss or beastboss on squig or mozgrod
1 deffkiller wartrike or warboss on bike
And the specialist bosses should not conflict with the actual warboss or beastboss or speed boss. So zagstrukk, snikrot, badrukk, maddoc/painboss, big Mek should not be limited.
Well I have to read again.
