For the purposes of this thread, by "cheesetastic," I mean any of the really "cheesy" things which are ordinarily complained about.
Examples:
1. An army of only Imperial Knights.
2. Min-maxed razorback spam.
3. Flyrant spam
4. Webway portal + wraithguard
5. Librarius conclave + grav centurions
In sum: "the stuff that the people on the internet are constantly complaining about."
Basically, I'm wondering how common these combinations actually are among ordinary players. I've never actually played against most of these. I have a "competitive" friend who plays Eldar lists. He does not own the dark eldar codex.
I've played on the same side of an army composed only of imperial knights (it was a 2 v 2 game; the IK player is a competitive friend of my competitive friend, and my friend was playing an army, the core of which was wraithknights + scatter bikes + farseers (as well as some other units)).
My inclination is to think that a lot of the worst "cheese" is purely the construct of hyper competitive players who are constantly at tournaments.
Anyway:
1. Vote in the poll
2. In the comments below, if you say that your army is cheesy, please indicate what kind of cheese you use.
3. In the comments below, if you say that your army is not cheese, indicate what kind of non-cheese you use.
I run a tau list that isn't spammy and has a diverse number of units. I limit myself to less than 3 riptides and only have a single squad of broadsides.
Errrr. Do you mean like...at tournaments or just constantly? I play more than one list. My cheesiness level is directly tied to how much I want to win, which is directly tied to the monetary prize for doing so. So fun events and house games I play interesting fun unoptimized and unusual lists, while GT's and GT practice get the queso treatment, down to scrutinization of every last point in the weeks beforehand.
Jaxler wrote: I run a tau list that isn't spammy and has a diverse number of units. I limit myself to less than 3 riptides and only have a single squad of broadsides.
I'll allow it. Now that the riptide wing is a thing, 1 or 2 riptides, while I wouldn't want to play against it, probably can't be considered one of the worst "cheese" offenders at this point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
niv-mizzet wrote: Errrr. Do you mean like...at tournaments or just constantly? I play more than one list. My cheesiness level is directly tied to how much I want to win, which is directly tied to the monetary prize for doing so. So fun events and house games I play interesting fun unoptimized and unusual lists, while GT's and GT practice get the queso treatment, down to scrutinization of every last point in the weeks beforehand.
So do you want that to count as a yes or no?
I would count that as a yes. All hardcore tournament players should click "yes," even if they have non cheesy lists.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also wish to stipulate that running a Necron decurion or a space marine battle company does not, in and of itself, constitute cheese for the purposes of this poll.
So then you're trying to determine how much cheese is in two environments? One in which cheese is used by people to attempt to win prizes against primarily other cheese, and one in which people use cheese to surprise or steamroll casual opponents? What does the data then prove? Because I feel like environment really does factor in for people that aren't WAAC/TFG, and if you're looking at "ordinary players," maybe we should try to find out the percentage of people that cheese against ordinary players as opposed to cheesing against both ordinary and other competitive types.
BossJakadakk wrote: So then you're trying to determine how much cheese is in two environments? One in which cheese is used by people to attempt to win prizes against primarily other cheese, and one in which people use cheese to surprise or steamroll casual opponents? What does the data then prove? Because I feel like environment really does factor in for people that aren't WAAC/TFG, and if you're looking at "ordinary players," maybe we should try to find out the percentage of people that cheese against ordinary players as opposed to cheesing against both ordinary and other competitive types.
In and of itself, the data doesn't prove anything about whether people are WAAC/TFG. That's not what I'm trying to ascertain.
I'm just wondering how common the most commonly complained about combinations actually are.
Fair enough. I just expect them to be more common in actual tournaments, so I figured this would focus more on things outside of those. Guess I'll answer "yes" considering my 1850 army is going to have a cheesy filling (some scatbikes, some warp spiders, and a wk) with extra stuff I just wanna play around it. I just don't plan to play my tournament army against my friends (unless we agree to a certain power level).
BossJakadakk wrote: Fair enough. I just expect them to be more common in actual tournaments, so I figured this would focus more on things outside of those. Guess I'll answer "yes" considering my 1850 army is going to have a cheesy filling (some scatbikes, some warp spiders, and a wk) with extra stuff I just wanna play around it. I just don't plan to play my tournament army against my friends (unless we agree to a certain power level).
Have you used the webway portal + wraithguard combination?
In all fairness, I don't see how flyrant spam is cheesy.
That's pretty much the only good build the 'Nids have. And by good, I mean as close to competitive as we can get, which struggles against most other competitive builds, and falls utterly flat against some of them.
Not really. The cheesiest thing I do is run two squads of Sternguard in Drop Pods with Pedro Kantor. ObSec Sternguard. Beyond that, I do run Honour Guard alongside Pedro and a Librarian in a Pod. They get a buttload of attacks, but that is about it.
BossJakadakk wrote: Fair enough. I just expect them to be more common in actual tournaments, so I figured this would focus more on things outside of those. Guess I'll answer "yes" considering my 1850 army is going to have a cheesy filling (some scatbikes, some warp spiders, and a wk) with extra stuff I just wanna play around it. I just don't plan to play my tournament army against my friends (unless we agree to a certain power level).
Have you used the webway portal + wraithguard combination?
No, and wasn't planning to either. Not really interested in getting DE right now. Plus, wasn't the best way to do that the illegal way anyway? By overfilling the transport capacity of a raider?
BossJakadakk wrote:No, and wasn't planning to either. Not really interested in getting DE right now. Plus, wasn't the best way to do that the illegal way anyway? By overfilling the transport capacity of a raider?
Before the FAQ, you could do wave serpent + wraithguard + DEHQ with webway portal.
You could still do it now, minus the wave serpent.
At any rate:
Seriously, though: how common is the DE + Eldar taxi service combination?
BossJakadakk wrote:No, and wasn't planning to either. Not really interested in getting DE right now. Plus, wasn't the best way to do that the illegal way anyway? By overfilling the transport capacity of a raider?
Before the FAQ, you could do wave serpent + wraithguard + DEHQ with webway portal.
You could still do it now. They just couldn't be in a transport.
The idea still doesn't get my juices flowin'.
I am working toward a wraith host as well, though I feel that formation still has its weaknesses (but maybe not as much once I put the w'guard in serpents). I just love the wraith construct models.
In all fairness, I don't see how flyrant spam is cheesy.
Would you bring it to a casual game?
If I was playing someone just getting into the hobby, no, I wouldn't.
If the game is casual enough where we both agree to tone down the armies, and not be uber competitive, no, I wouldn't.
If it is a casual pick-up game where I don't know what my opponent is bringing, yes I would.
I guess it depends on the definition of casual, and the communication between the players.
Most of the casual games I play are still pretty competitive. They may be beer and pretzel, but we still want to crush our opponents.
League games and tournaments, you'd better believe I would bring them.
I still don't think the build is cheesy either way.
Honestly, I don't think anything is really cheesy anymore. The game is the game. I think the attitudes of the players can be cheesy, but that's another issue.
I don't even care when people go against fluff anymore.
The poll is silly. There will very rarely be a yes or no answer. Can I build a Razorback spamming Gladius using what I have? Yes, I can. Do I always play it? Well, no, I actually haven't played a game of 7th at all yet. My army *can* do that, but as a whole it consists of
So there's a hell of a lot I can do as far as detachments and formations. Could I go cheesy? Hell yes. Would I? That depends on whether I thought I'd be met in kind. I won't be taking a footslogging Tactical spam list against Scatter bikes and Wraithknights.
Right, so a survey of self selected particpants that allows them to apply their own likely wildly variable and subjective criteria on a topic they're almost by definition unable to be objective on.
This thread is almost utterly pointless.
It also misses the key point that the potential for "cheese" lists is symptomatic of a poorly written ruleset, and whether they're actually used is at least partially moot.
It also misses the key point that the potential for "cheese" lists is symptomatic of a poorly written ruleset, and whether they're actually used is at least partially moot.
Actually, if you're familiar with Traditio's post history you'll know that "cheese" is defined as grav, transports, and essentially anything that has raised the power level since fifth edition or renders top tier fifth edition units obsolete.
For reals. Basically anything that would force him to expand his existing collection in order to compete.
Actually, if you're familiar with Traditio's post history you'll know that "cheese" is defined as grav, transports, and essentially anything that has raised the power level since fifth edition or renders top tier fifth edition units obsolete.
For reals. Basically anything that would force him to expand his existing collection in order to compete.
For the purposes of this thread, "cheese" should be understood as the most commonly complained about combinations. My personal cheese bar is set lower, but that's not what the thread is about.
But, that actually confirms my point, when people get to choose the criteria before they choose how to answer, it renders the answer meaningless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you want the thread to have any point, you need to exhaustively list every potential cheese list and/or unit, and qualify under what circumstances and with what frequency the responder uses them.
You'd probably be better off including a qualifier as to whether it was done knowingly or by accident too..
Azreal13 wrote: Right, so a survey of self selected particpants that allows them to apply their own likely wildly variable and subjective criteria on a topic they're almost by definition unable to be objective on.
This thread is almost utterly pointless.
It also misses the key point that the potential for "cheese" lists is symptomatic of a poorly written ruleset, and whether they're actually used is at least partially moot.
I'm only a few months into the hobby, and I'm already sick of tirades and campaigns against "cheese." It is, like you say, very subjective, and I got into this to play the models that I think are the coolest. Am I going to modify for power when I play for prizes? Absolutely! Do I want to completely overpower my friends? Not if they want a casual game that day. "Cheese" seems to be something people just equate with the power level of a given unit.
I'm basically at my "feth the haters" stage I guess.
Which is partially why I get on Traditio's case every time I see one of his cheese threads pop up, and I shouldn't. Sorry mate. I understand you've got expectations for how you want to play the game, and I've got mine.
BossJakadakk wrote:I'm only a few months into the hobby, and I'm already sick of tirades and campaigns against "cheese." It is, like you say, very subjective, and I got into this to play the models that I think are the coolest. Am I going to modify for power when I play for prizes? Absolutely! Do I want to completely overpower my friends? Not if they want a casual game that day. "Cheese" seems to be something people just equate with the power level of a given unit.
I'm basically at my "feth the haters" stage I guess.
Again, I wish to point out that this thread is not intended as a "cheese hate" thread. I'm simply wanting to know how common those kinds of lists are.
What spurred this thread is the following:
I was about to play against someone online last night, and he indicated that he was about to use Eldar with dark eldar allies. He had to go offline before the game could actually play.
And it occurred to me: "Wow. That is the first time I've even seen somebody actually do that."
Azreal13 wrote: I'm familiar, they all have one thing in common..
But, that actually confirms my point, when people get to choose the criteria before they choose how to answer, it renders the answer meaningless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you want the thread to have any point, you need to exhaustively list every potential cheese list and/or unit, and qualify under what circumstances and with what frequency the responder uses them.
You'd probably be better off including a qualifier as to whether it was done knowingly or by accident too..
TheCustomLime wrote: I have Wraithguard w/D-scythes and Wave Serpents. Does that count?
For the purposes of this thread, no.
Wave serpents are dedicated transports options for wraithguard.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azreal13 wrote: I'm familiar, they all have one thing in common..
But, that actually confirms my point, when people get to choose the criteria before they choose how to answer, it renders the answer meaningless.
It's not meaningless.
A "yes" on the poll indicates: "Yes, I run a combination which I consider to be one of those commonly complained about as cheese."
A "no" on the poll indicates: "No, I do not run a combination of which I am aware of complaints as being commonly considered as cheese."
If you want the thread to have any point, you need to exhaustively list every potential cheese list and/or unit, and qualify under what circumstances and with what frequency the responder uses them.
You'd probably be better off including a qualifier as to whether it was done knowingly or by accident too..
BossJakadakk wrote:I'm only a few months into the hobby, and I'm already sick of tirades and campaigns against "cheese." It is, like you say, very subjective, and I got into this to play the models that I think are the coolest. Am I going to modify for power when I play for prizes? Absolutely! Do I want to completely overpower my friends? Not if they want a casual game that day. "Cheese" seems to be something people just equate with the power level of a given unit.
I'm basically at my "feth the haters" stage I guess.
Again, I wish to point out that this thread is not intended as a "cheese hate" thread. I'm simply wanting to know how common those kinds of lists are.
What spurred this thread is the following:
I was about to play against someone online last night, and he indicated that he was about to use Eldar with dark eldar allies. He had to go offline before the game could actually play.
And it occurred to me: "Wow. That is the first time I've even seen somebody actually do that."
Yeah, and I came in to the thread like "NUH UH he better not be on my jive!" That's on me, assuming and all. But as far as anything, I really think it's less common outside of tournaments and WAAC dudes.
TheCustomLime wrote: I have Wraithguard w/D-scythes and Wave Serpents. Does that count?
For the purposes of this thread, no.
Wave serpents are dedicated transports options for wraithguard.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azreal13 wrote: I'm familiar, they all have one thing in common..
But, that actually confirms my point, when people get to choose the criteria before they choose how to answer, it renders the answer meaningless.
It's not meaningless.
A "yes" on the poll indicates: "Yes, I run a combination which I consider to be one of those commonly complained about as cheese."
A "no" on the poll indicates: "No, I do not run a combination of which I am aware of complaints as being commonly considered as cheese."
If you want the thread to have any point, you need to exhaustively list every potential cheese list and/or unit, and qualify under what circumstances and with what frequency the responder uses them.
You'd probably be better off including a qualifier as to whether it was done knowingly or by accident too..
You're committing Loki's fallacy.
No I'm not, I'm not arguing it can't be defined, I'm saying you haven't defined it.
Your poll question is simply "is your army cheddar?"
There's none of the qualification you've tried to retrospectively shoehorn in. You're also assuming that people in different parts of the world, or even different parts of the internet, complain about the same things.
I dunno, maybe? I'm not entirely sure what that entails, but I do have one on a bike with a lightning claw and Shield Eternal. So I guess? I do also have a Chaplain on bike, 2 or 3 Captains on foot, a jump pack Captain and a Terminator Captain or two.
For the purposes of this thread, "cheese" should be understood as the most commonly complained about combinations. My personal cheese bar is set lower, but that's not what the thread is about.
But that's the thing; everyone's definition is different. If I created a tactics thread asking what to equip my Captain with, the most common answer would be "bike Captain." This is because the rules so overwhelmingly favour a bike over any other form that it would be almost ludicrous not to use one. So does that make me a piece of gak, win at all costs donkey-cave for doing so? Or does it make the rules inherently unbalanced? Both? I don't know. It will all depend on who's asking the question and who's answering.
SOB immolator spam
WS gladius strike force(Hyper competitive mega grav culexus in a pod etc, probably my favorite competitive list.)
SmashFetherBall with librarius conclave in the medusa strike force with a culexus in a pod and drop pod grav devs with SNP.
Ultramarines Grav/mela skyhammer makes it into these lists whenever I can shave the points
As an Eldar player I run multiple (usually 3) small squads of bikes (usually 3), but if I take any heavy weapons, it's only one per squad. I run at most one squad of Warp Spiders, and have only used a Wraithknight once or twice.
That said, I do play Eldar, and everyone complains about them, so I guess I need to check "yes"?
Happyjew wrote: As an Eldar player I run multiple (usually 3) small squads of bikes (usually 3), but if I take any heavy weapons, it's only one per squad. I run at most one squad of Warp Spiders, and have only used a Wraithknight once or twice.
That said, I do play Eldar, and everyone complains about them, so I guess I need to check "yes"?
For Nids, I run at most 1 Dakka Flyrant.
It's so hard with Eldar, because your bottom feeder units would be starters in other lists.
Interesting question. The answer for me is 'depends on my opponent.' Most people won't find my BA to be cheesy, until I run into that Harlie or DE player who then cries that frag cannons are op. Although, my BA list I took to WGC last year got opponents (oddly enough, Tau and Eldar) to complain about it. 11 model 1850 is pretty cheesy when they're a bunch of melta-immune tanks and dreadnoughts.
Mulletdude wrote: Interesting question. The answer for me is 'depends on my opponent.' Most people won't find my BA to be cheesy, until I run into that Harlie or DE player who then cries that frag cannons are op. Although, my BA list I took to WGC last year got opponents (oddly enough, Tau and Eldar) to complain about it. 11 model 1850 is pretty cheesy when they're a bunch of melta-immune tanks and dreadnoughts.
"Most commonly complained about" just means "I can't define cheese, but I know it when I see it."
I don't think anyone's forgotten your earlier spoiled, entitled rants on the subject. "Pulse rifles are OP 'cause they're better than bolters," really?
Jewelfox wrote: "Most commonly complained about" just means "I can't define cheese, but I know it when I see it."
I don't think anyone's forgotten your earlier spoiled, entitled rants on the subject. "Pulse rifles are OP 'cause they're better than bolters," really?
As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that's "cheesy" is not taking your opponent's feelings into account. Whether you're giving a tournament game your best shot, or playing a pickup or casual game with someone you'd like to befriend.
Funny thing is I have always run my space marines as the "codex compliant" list with devs, assualt marines, and tacticals when available loaded into rhinos and drop pods (that full comapny picture from the 5th edition book is my go to for how I want my second comapny Ultras to look and behave). Naturally when they release the new rules I was like "SCORE!!!" and modified my rhinos to also be razorbacks. Most of the time I actually take as my extra formation either sternguard in pods, a storm wing, or I max out my tactical squads, and combat squad out lascannons or plasma cannons with some scout squads. I wouldnt necessarily say its cheesy because I have always played them codex compliant and no centurions, but then again 10 free razorbacks is nothing to sneeze at.
I wouldn't consider my Tzeentch Daemons cheesy at all when I run them as a CAD. The two 'worst' offenders in my list would be a LoC w/Boomstick + 2x Greater Gifts, and a single Lv3 Malefic Tzherald w/Imposible Robe. (who also is geared for close combat choppiness, so he's hardly difficult to hunt down...)
I like to bring the Grimoire for sure, but I don't use it to build re-rolled 2++ saves. Instead, I much prefer to pass out boosted invulns to multiple units, instead of just building one super unit that can easily be ignored.
I also like to include things like;
- a unit of 9 Flamers, because I've always loved Tzeentch's proclivity for burning things, and because they're among my favourite models in the entire Daemons range.
In really large games, I can run 18 Flamers!
- allied Warptalons w/MoT, as within a full-on Daemons army, they actually get some solid synergies.
With them I'll also take a Tzeentch Sorc, Cultists and Possessed to keep the whole daemonic theme going. And now with the Warzone Fenris campaign, I'd love to expand on these and build a full allied Alpha Legion contingent!
- a small unit of converted Changebringers (Flamers riding Discs), which use the rules for Plaguedrones... They always take the shooting upgrade, despite how awful it really is, simply because the unit under its previous Storm of Chaos rules were meant to be a beefier shooting cavalry.
Now if I want to be more competitive, then I'll instead run a more pts efficient Warpflame Host as the core of my army, using lots of MSU Flamers (who gain S5 templates) and solo Exalted Flamers.
So I'd say that no, while I don't run a fluffy wet noodle army by any means, I doubt anyone could really claim that even my (albeit poor) attempts at more competitive lists are cheese in any way.
One lonely little Malefic caster is hardly playing a Clown Car...
I've been playing lots of DEldar and Harlies recently, so no.
However, my local gaming group has learned to fear anything getting close to Incubi or Harlequins
I run a Space Marine Demi-Company, but I use mostly Rhinos, as compared to Razorbacks (mostly because I was given a bunch of Rhinos as a gift). So I wouldn't say my army is Cheddar.
I would also argue that an IK army is only cheddar if you don't inform your opponent that you're bringing one. If you know about it, then you can prepare accordingly. It's only cheese if you just spring it on someone without warning em'. That's just my opinion though.
Jewelfox wrote: "Most commonly complained about" just means "I can't define cheese, but I know it when I see it."
There are combinations of things that people often complain about. Wraithguard + webway portal is one of them.
Again, this has nothing to do with my previous "rants." I'm talking about the very worst combinations that inspire the most complaint. Simply taking a tau army doesn't qualify for a "yes" answer on the poll.
Taking a riptide wing might. Simply playing tau does not.
I am very interested in the way that the poll has turned out so far. Roughly 100 participants, and of those, roughly 1 in 5 admits to running what he or she considers a "cheesy" list.
The motivations for so doing are diverse, of course.
But this is very interesting:
Roughly 4 out of 5 dakka members don't consider themselves as playing a cheesy list, at least, thus far.
I mean my Slaanesh Daemons army contains 3 vehicles you can't really kill with Boltguns, 1 MC and 1 FMC, a total of 6 Psykers (2 lvl 3s and 4 lvl 2s), 2-3 of which roll on Malefic to get summoning, with the rest rolling on Telepathy.
I don't consider it cheesy, and no one around here does either even though I typically win with it, but since it contains summoning, high amounts of psykers and units Boltguns can't kill, to you it probably is.
Traditio wrote: Again, this has nothing to do with my previous "rants."
Yes, it does, because they showed that you have no ability to discern "cheese" or "overpowered" stuff from things that you simply don't like. Crowdsourcing your definition of cheese doesn't help a whole lot, because as you can see from this thread everyone has a different idea of what's imba and what isn't, outside of maybe a very small number of repeat offenders (like scatbikes). This is what you'd expect in a game that has super-complicated rules, super-isolated metas, and whole sections of the rules (codices) that most people can't browse at their leisure unless they are playing that faction.
Besides that, context matters. "Cheese" in a tournament is not the same as "cheese" on the kitchen table, as one of the first few responses pointed out. And some players want a serious challenge.
With that in mind, asking people if they play cheese or not is largely meaningless, and asking "would most people consider your list cheese?" isn't much better. All the answers you get are either going to be subjective ("I don't think it's that cheesy"), or quantitative ("This is what it consists of"). No one is "most people," so no one can say whether or not a thing is objectively cheese by your definition. And it sounds like the people who've weighed in on it don't trust your personal judgment, since you appear to be blind to your biases.
Frankly, I'm not sure why you'd be posting a thread like this except to find more people to pick on. If you're trying to educate yourself about game balance issues and player consent, asking everyone "Are you a good person? Y/N" is getting off to a bad start.
I mean my Slaanesh Daemons army contains 3 vehicles you can't really kill with Boltguns, 1 MC and 1 FMC, a total of 6 Psykers (2 lvl 3s and 4 lvl 2s), 2-3 of which roll on Malefic to get summoning, with the rest rolling on Telepathy.
I don't consider it cheesy, and no one around here does either even though I typically win with it, but since it contains summoning, high amounts of psykers and units Boltguns can't kill, to you it probably is.
That's a strong list, not a cheesy list. It might be considered cheesy against a Black Templar list that has minimal to no Skyfire capabilities, but that's incredibly circumstantial, so this list is not overall cheesy.
War Kitten wrote: Are people really going to admit to playing a "cheesy" list though?
It's an anonymous poll.
I understand that, but most people still wouldn't be willing to admit that they play a "cheesy" list. Even in a poll.
This paired with someones true definition of cheese. Eldar, crons spess mureens and tau are all strong, and all have potental to become cheese easily, but who says where the tipping point is?
War Kitten wrote: Are people really going to admit to playing a "cheesy" list though?
It's an anonymous poll.
I understand that, but most people still wouldn't be willing to admit that they play a "cheesy" list. Even in a poll.
This paired with someones true definition of cheese. Eldar, crons spess mureens and tau are all strong, and all have potental to become cheese easily, but who says where the tipping point is?
Traditio, obviously. They know how "most people" think.
Pffft no. I think the closest I might come to cheese is fielding the less than optimal IG psyker formation just so I can see the look of disgust on a demon or eldar player's face at the sheer number of warp charges I have... and then proceed to be massacred.
Jewelfox wrote:Traditio, obviously. They know how "most people" think.
I wish to re-emphasize, for the umpteenth time, that the purpose of this thread is not to attack anyone.
The inspiration for this thread is the fact that I possibly, though I do not know for sure, was about to play against someone online who was about to play Eldar + dark eldar allies, and I'd not faced this before.
Call it "cheese" if you want, or call it "combinations which we hear about primarily from online sources."
That's ultimately what the thread is about. A lot of people talk about using DE as a taxi service for Eldar, but I find myself wondering how popular this actually is.
I'm inclined to think that it's not as popular as online boards make it out to be.
The purpose of this thread is not to criticize your use of the Tau army.
wuestenfux wrote: My Eldar and Necron armies are considered to be cheesy here.
They probably are. But not for the purposes of my poll.
Again, I have in mind the combinations that people are constantly complaining about (e.g., webway portal + wraithguard or grav centurions + libby conclave).
wuestenfux wrote: My Eldar and Necron armies are considered to be cheesy here.
They probably are. But not for the purposes of my poll.
Your poll is not specific enough to be useful, even to you, and your stated reason for posting it is a non-sequitur. "How many of you self-identify as playing cheesy lists?" does not logically follow from "I wonder how popular DE taxis are," unless you are taking it for granted that everyone agrees with you that this is cheese. Without your having to explain it.
That doesn't seem to be the case, and there are a number of good reasons why.
Traditio wrote: The purpose of this thread is not to criticize your use of the Tau army.
I have my Salamander marine chapter that I play for 40k. The only allies I've ever used were the occasional Inquisitor or Vindicare assassin. I do admit that I have grav Centurions and sometimes use them, but have never done the libby conclave+tiggy or white scar hunter's eye bs to combine with them.
I thought I had a rather cheesy list at a 2000 point tourney I just went to with using a Gladius to get free transports. When I saw what I was up against at the tourney I chided myself for thinking I had brought anything close to resembling tournament cheese.
wuestenfux wrote: My Eldar and Necron armies are considered to be cheesy here.
They probably are. But not for the purposes of my poll.
Again, I have in mind the combinations that people are constantly complaining about (e.g., webway portal + wraithguard or grav centurions + libby conclave).
PLEASE STOP THIS. It's very annoying to hear about people CONSTANTLY bitching about an army and how its so cheese, when they are obviously cheating.
I play Eldar. I also play local tournaments and win. Yes I play WKs & Scatterbikes. However I have never been denied a game because I am not considered a D-bag. In casual games I rarely bring a WK (or pure Eldar for that matter, often spending 1/3 of my points on GK or DE allies) and will gladly swap the Scatter lasers for Shuricannons.
I recently won an unbound tourney using 3 WKs, a VSG, Farseer and all Scatterbikes. However, I only barely won. my last opponent actually beat me by 1 point, but I had enough points from previous matches to win overall.
That opponent was playing 6, yes SIX! Dakka Tyrants. All my Bikes were dead in the first turn (it only took 2 Tyrants to down the shields) and my WKs couldn't do anything other than kill his dirt cheap Spore mine Troop thingies. So yes, 1 DakkaTyrant isn't that bad, 2 is pushing it but still ok. 6 it just nasty
wuestenfux wrote: My Eldar and Necron armies are considered to be cheesy here.
They probably are. But not for the purposes of my poll.
Again, I have in mind the combinations that people are constantly complaining about (e.g., webway portal + wraithguard or grav centurions + libby conclave).
PLEASE STOP THIS. It's very annoying to hear about people CONSTANTLY bitching about an army and how its so cheese, when they are obviously cheating.
How is it illegal? Wraithguard + Archon can go into a Wave Serpent right? Or have I missed something?
wuestenfux wrote: My Eldar and Necron armies are considered to be cheesy here.
They probably are. But not for the purposes of my poll.
Again, I have in mind the combinations that people are constantly complaining about (e.g., webway portal + wraithguard or grav centurions + libby conclave).
PLEASE STOP THIS. It's very annoying to hear about people CONSTANTLY bitching about an army and how its so cheese, when they are obviously cheating.
How is it illegal? Wraithguard + Archon can go into a Wave Serpent right? Or have I missed something?
The thing was they were going into a raider because it's open-topped, so free d-templates while staying safe in a vehicle was the big complaint, afaik.
My army, not cheesy at all.
That guy that just tabled me? The amount of cheese he just force fed me is making my cholesteral hi and is giving me colon cancer.
That army I just trounced? He's a fungi he just needs to get good.
Feels like every arguement ever.
God forbid one person at the table is actually trying to win.
wuestenfux wrote: My Eldar and Necron armies are considered to be cheesy here.
They probably are. But not for the purposes of my poll.
Again, I have in mind the combinations that people are constantly complaining about (e.g., webway portal + wraithguard or grav centurions + libby conclave).
PLEASE STOP THIS. It's very annoying to hear about people CONSTANTLY bitching about an army and how its so cheese, when they are obviously cheating.
How is it illegal? Wraithguard + Archon can go into a Wave Serpent right? Or have I missed something?
The thing was they were going into a raider because it's open-topped, so free d-templates while staying safe in a vehicle was the big complaint, afaik.
Raider capacity is 10, WG are bulky, so only the WG can fit into a Raider. NO Archon.
If WG are in a Serpent, an Archon can fit, but cannot embark during deployment (via the FAQ for BBs). So no WWP Serpent.
However, WWP Archon + D-scythe WG without a transport is still viable and very scary.....it's also over 300pts and will most likely only kill 1 thing in a game.
wuestenfux wrote: My Eldar and Necron armies are considered to be cheesy here.
They probably are. But not for the purposes of my poll.
Again, I have in mind the combinations that people are constantly complaining about (e.g., webway portal + wraithguard or grav centurions + libby conclave).
PLEASE STOP THIS. It's very annoying to hear about people CONSTANTLY bitching about an army and how its so cheese, when they are obviously cheating.
How is it illegal? Wraithguard + Archon can go into a Wave Serpent right? Or have I missed something?
The thing was they were going into a raider because it's open-topped, so free d-templates while staying safe in a vehicle was the big complaint, afaik.
Raider capacity is 10, WG are bulky, so only the WG can fit into a Raider. NO Archon.
If WG are in a Serpent, an Archon can fit, but cannot embark during deployment (via the FAQ for BBs). So no WWP Serpent.
However, WWP Archon + D-scythe WG without a transport is still viable and very scary.....it's also over 300pts and will most likely only kill 1 thing in a game.
Right. The major complaint was against people doing a thing that was illegal anyway, so it didn't even make sense, because that person couldn't be doing it. It's not as bad without doing it illegally. Still scary, but also vulnerable.
Pre-FAQ I always thought the standard combo was Wraithguard in a Raider (no Archon, because the Raider can Deep Strike by itself, you just have to hope for good scatter).
As for OP, no. I play Orks and Blood Angels (selling pretty much all my cheesy armies).
wuestenfux wrote: My Eldar and Necron armies are considered to be cheesy here.
They probably are. But not for the purposes of my poll.
Again, I have in mind the combinations that people are constantly complaining about (e.g., webway portal + wraithguard or grav centurions + libby conclave).
PLEASE STOP THIS. It's very annoying to hear about people CONSTANTLY bitching about an army and how its so cheese, when they are obviously cheating.
How is it illegal? Wraithguard + Archon can go into a Wave Serpent right? Or have I missed something?
The thing was they were going into a raider because it's open-topped, so free d-templates while staying safe in a vehicle was the big complaint, afaik.
Raider capacity is 10, WG are bulky, so only the WG can fit into a Raider. NO Archon.
If WG are in a Serpent, an Archon can fit, but cannot embark during deployment (via the FAQ for BBs). So no WWP Serpent.
However, WWP Archon + D-scythe WG without a transport is still viable and very scary.....it's also over 300pts and will most likely only kill 1 thing in a game.
There is no FAQ. There is a draft but that doesn't mean anything until it's an official release.
Either way that's so recently done the complaining about the portalguard being illegal isn't right anyway.
I know there have been other ways of utilizing the wraithguard with allies, it just seemed like wwp + raider + guard was the major actual complaint, I didn't really see people complaining about it being used other ways. And that combo of all 3 things was not able to actually be done.
I think I only saw a few comments talking about how raider still has ds on its own, or just grouping them with archon without transport, but those seemed to be presented as legal ways to get the desired effect of d-templates quickly being where you want them, rather than "omg cheese tfg"
The worst offenders I could think of for cheese in my army is: A three man unit of Devastator Centurions, with grav cannons, footslogging with a single ML2 Terminator Librarian, fishing for Endurance if I can. Or a Captain (not Chapter Master) with Shield Eternal, relic blade or thunder hammer, and artificer armour (no bike). Or just a pair of Wyverns.
None of them I class as cheesy, nor particularly bad. I could easily field a transport spam Razorback min-max list for my Marines, but I've never felt it necessary, and I prefer ten man squads anyways. I could take cheese, but I don't.
I don't see why OP is asking for all sorts of cheese when they could instead said "How common is BLANK?" Specific, and far less likely to be taken offensively by some players.
Galef wrote: I play Eldar. I also play local tournaments and win. Yes I play WKs & Scatterbikes. However I have never been denied a game because I am not considered a D-bag.
In casual games I rarely bring a WK (or pure Eldar for that matter, often spending 1/3 of my points on GK or DE allies) and will gladly swap the Scatter lasers for Shuricannons.
What DE units do you usually ally with your Eldar in casual games?
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bomtek80 wrote: I have my Salamander marine chapter that I play for 40k. The only allies I've ever used were the occasional Inquisitor or Vindicare assassin. I do admit that I have grav Centurions and sometimes use them, but have never done the libby conclave+tiggy or white scar hunter's eye bs to combine with them.
How did you move the grav centurions around?
I thought I had a rather cheesy list at a 2000 point tourney I just went to with using a Gladius to get free transports. When I saw what I was up against at the tourney I chided myself for thinking I had brought anything close to resembling tournament cheese.
Yeah, I don't think that free transports are even remotely cheesy. A free rhino for a 5 man marine squad, or a free razorback for a 10 man marine squad, are well within the bounds of what can be considered reasonable.
Nothing cheesy about gladius. In fact in gladius I think you get just about what you pay for compared to Eldar and Tau. The only thing thats REALLY cheesy about it is everything gets OBJ secured and everyone gets ultra marine tactics for free. Even then - the list only wins due to time restrictions because most games don't go past turn 3 or 4.
Xenomancers wrote: Nothing cheesy about gladius. In fact in gladius I think you get just about what you pay for compared to Eldar and Tau. The only thing thats REALLY cheesy about it is everything gets OBJ secured and everyone gets ultra marine tactics for free. Even then - the list only wins due to time restrictions because most games don't go past turn 3 or 4.
The Gladius be itself isn't cheesy, but when you add Khan and ever Tac unit has a Grav cannon w/ Grav amp, it starts to get that way. Played a super competitive casual game a while back with my Eldar vs this and was tabled turn 2 because there was nowhere to turboboost without being Grav'd off the board. Not enough Scatterlasers to kill all those FREE Rhinos. Stuff in the Drop Pods managed to snipe any units I thought were "safe".
I have now started adding an Inquisitor w/ servo-skulls to my Eldar list to stop them from getting into position before I have a chance to slow them down. Played a rematch and needless to say, the difference is night-n-day. Best 34pts I have ever spent
Xenomancers wrote: Nothing cheesy about gladius. In fact in gladius I think you get just about what you pay for compared to Eldar and Tau. The only thing thats REALLY cheesy about it is everything gets OBJ secured and everyone gets ultra marine tactics for free. Even then - the list only wins due to time restrictions because most games don't go past turn 3 or 4.
The Gladius be itself isn't cheesy, but when you add Khan and ever Tac unit has a Grav cannon w/ Grav amp, it starts to get that way. Played a super competitive casual game a while back with my Eldar vs this and was tabled turn 2 because there was nowhere to turboboost without being Grav'd off the board. Not enough Scatterlasers to kill all those FREE Rhinos. Stuff in the Drop Pods managed to snipe any units I thought were "safe".
I have now started adding an Inquisitor w/ servo-skulls to my Eldar list to stop them from getting into position before I have a chance to slow them down. Played a rematch and needless to say, the difference is night-n-day. Best 34pts I have ever spent
--
You sir need a seer council! Personally I think Las plas Razor with ether grav or plas matching combi on the marines is better - cost only 10 more points and it gives you much more effective firepower. If your spamming wraith-knights though I can see how that would give you trouble.
Traditio wrote: Yeah, I don't think that free transports are even remotely cheesy. A free rhino for a 5 man marine squad, or a free razorback for a 10 man marine squad, are well within the bounds of what can be considered reasonable.
A belief that I'm sure has nothing to do with the fact that you play C:SM with lots of free transports...
Of course by your own "things people complain about a lot" standard for "cheese" free transports are cheese. And there's a legitimate point to that. The whole reason we have points at all is that each thing is supposed to have a point cost roughly equal to its power. Getting tons of points in free transports is essentially bringing a 1750 list to a 1500 point game. And how many times have you complained about people getting "extra" points by bringing Wraithknights? If a Wraithknight is cheese because it costs (in your opinion) 100 points less than it should then a Rhino or Razorback that costs zero points is certainly cheese!
I think the biggest problem here is that cheese is generally a bad word among the 40k community. Taking an extremely min/maxed list into a game is considered poor form because the majority of games people play are beer and pretzels type games meant to be fun and showcase units that are well liked or newly painted or try weird combos or even just be goofy fun. Bringing double wraithknight scatpacks Warpspiders and a lynx to games like this defeat the purpose and make people feel bad.
For me, I have a fairly unique perspective because I play almost exclusively in tournaments, so cheese generally doesn't mean the same thing. Before adepticon, for example I managed to get 2.5 games in with the list I brought to practice and played 7 games total over the whole 2 days and that ratio is what I'm normally at.
Literally the fourth game of 40k I ever played (and the first game my buddy played) Was us taking sisters of battle and a dark vengeance box with a landraider against a wraithknight, triple scat pack, 3 hornet, Void Shield, some other thing, eldar with KDK cheese allies in team tournament. The other lists weren't quite as strong but yeah for a good long time I was 50/50 casual games to tournament games, now I would say it's almost 80% of games I've played have been tournaments.
Breakdown of each of my armies on the cheese scale. (1 being fluffier than a space marine captain with a chainsword and plasma pistol, 10 being as bad as the Urza Block in MTG)
Orks - Hard to cheese with a weak army even if I wanted to. Most OP thing I have is a Blitz Brigade so basically a wall of AV14 is typically the only targets presented on the board on turn 1. 4/10
Tau - Despite being the army that is the top 3 of internet rage my Tau are fairly tame with my preferred tactic being Fire Warrior spam with deep striking crisis suits. Some may frown on my Ethereal powered Fire Warrior gunline backed up by a crisis suit hammer blow but its not close to the power of some other lists. 5/10
Grey Knights - Well Nemesis Strike Force with 2 Dreadknights, Terminators, Libby, Purifiers, and an Inq detachment with a lot of psychic shriek firing out the top hatch of chimeras. Not that strong but the list isn't designed to hold back any (although I rarely if ever use invis because that power is bonkers broken). 6.5/10
Space Wolves - Normally I wouldn't say they are cheese but Wulfen are stupidly strong and can be used to cause some turn 1 charges with Skyclaws, Thunder Wolves, and Bikers. My goal is to have 40 skyclaws, 5 WG bikers, 10 wulfen, and a few land speeders/ GHs from the Fire Howlers great pack potentially making a lot of turn 1 charges. It could be a very fun list or it could be broken as gak, need to actually get my boat load of jump packs magnetized and painted up to properly field test them. ?/10 (but smelling quite cheesy).
Traditio wrote: Yeah, I don't think that free transports are even remotely cheesy. A free rhino for a 5 man marine squad, or a free razorback for a 10 man marine squad, are well within the bounds of what can be considered reasonable.
A belief that I'm sure has nothing to do with the fact that you play C:SM with lots of free transports...
Of course by your own "things people complain about a lot" standard for "cheese" free transports are cheese. And there's a legitimate point to that. The whole reason we have points at all is that each thing is supposed to have a point cost roughly equal to its power. Getting tons of points in free transports is essentially bringing a 1750 list to a 1500 point game. And how many times have you complained about people getting "extra" points by bringing Wraithknights? If a Wraithknight is cheese because it costs (in your opinion) 100 points less than it should then a Rhino or Razorback that costs zero points is certainly cheese!
This reasoning is fundamentally flawed.
You're not paying 0 points for a rhino or a razorback.
You are paying 70 or more points for a unit which includes 5 tactical, assault or devastator marines and a rhino or razorback.
And even that's not really a fair assessment. You only get the free rhinos or razorbacks if you take a battle company.
So, in fact, you are paying over a thousand points for:
A captain A chaplain 6 tactical squads 2 devastator squads 2 assault marine squads An auxillary selection (e.g., 3 scout marine squads) Rhinos and razorbacks for the squads who can take them. Ultramarine chapter tactics
You can't just look at the "free" transports in isolation. There is no space marines list composed solely of free transports. They have to be factored into the total cost of the unit and formation respectively.
That's why I say that "free" rhinos isn't cheesy. Free razorbacks is if you only pay for 5 man squads. Free rhinos isn't.
Marines aren't worth 14 ppm against eldar, tau, necrons, or practically anyone else, for that matter. They practically die like orks and guardsmen.
Rhinos probably aren't worth 35 points in the current meta. It has practically no offensive capacity, moves at normal vehicle speed, is not a skimmer and only has front and side AV of 11.
Again, you're not getting a "free" rhino." In the current edition, what you're actually paying for is a marine with a heavy or special weapon (who is going to be the only one consistently doing damage), 4 ablative wounds and an AV value for 80 points or more.
Traditio wrote: Yeah, I don't think that free transports are even remotely cheesy. A free rhino for a 5 man marine squad, or a free razorback for a 10 man marine squad, are well within the bounds of what can be considered reasonable.
A belief that I'm sure has nothing to do with the fact that you play C:SM with lots of free transports...
Of course by your own "things people complain about a lot" standard for "cheese" free transports are cheese. And there's a legitimate point to that. The whole reason we have points at all is that each thing is supposed to have a point cost roughly equal to its power. Getting tons of points in free transports is essentially bringing a 1750 list to a 1500 point game. And how many times have you complained about people getting "extra" points by bringing Wraithknights? If a Wraithknight is cheese because it costs (in your opinion) 100 points less than it should then a Rhino or Razorback that costs zero points is certainly cheese!
This reasoning is fundamentally flawed.
You're not paying 0 points for a rhino or a razorback.
You are paying 70 or more points for a unit which includes 5 tactical, assault or devastator marines and a rhino or razorback.
And even that's not really a fair assessment. You only get the free rhinos or razorbacks if you take a battle company.
So, in fact, you are paying over a thousand points for:
A captain
A chaplain
6 tactical squads
2 devastator squads
2 assault marine squads
An auxillary selection (e.g., 3 scout marine squads)
Rhinos and razorbacks for the squads who can take them.
You can't just look at the "free" transports in isolation. You don't get free transports. They have to be factored into the total cost of the unit and formation respectively.
That's why I say that "free" rhinos isn't cheesy. Free razorbacks is if you only pay for 5 man squads. Free rhinos isn't.
Marines aren't worth 14 ppm against eldar, tau, necrons, etc. They practically die like orks and guardsmen.
Yes, but the units alone count for that - you buy the units like anyone else does. The units are worth their points values.
Take a look at the Tactical Squad entry. Tell me how much a Tactical Squad costs. That is the cost of the unit - 5 Tactical Marines. Just Tactical Marines.
Then tell me how much an Assault Squad is. That is what an Assault Squad is - 5 Assault Marines. Just Assault Marines.
Then a Devastator Squad.
So on, so forth, for the entire Battle Company and a random Auxillary choice.
That is the cost of the units. Nowhere does a cost for a Rhino or Razorback come up.
I could take these units across an Unbound army, with multiple Chapter Tactics across them. I wouldn't see any free Rhinos or Razorbacks. Or just sans that Captain. Now, when I buy that Captain, sure he is now Captain + all those Rhinos and Razorbacks, no?
To summarise, are you saying that a fully Imperial Fist Battle Company with free transports = a mixed Chapter Tactic Battle Company (let's say half Imperial Fists, half Ultramarines), despite taking exactly the same units and at exactly the same points cost. i've taken the same units, but are you saying that the Ultramarine Chapter Tactic on half of the Company is worth all your free vehicles?
Also, your argument on the vehicles is flawed. I can still buy a Razorback for a ten man squad, or a Rhino for a five man. Nothing prevents that - I just can't embark everyone in it. The Rhino isn't the problem. I could not care less about the tank. It's the fact you get it for free, and that principle that if you take certain stuff, you get to reduce the cost of that stuff overall for stuff you can use.
Again, your argument on Marine value is not relevant. Marines die anyway, anyhow (and certainly not at the rate you describe - Necron gauss flayers kill Marines just like bolters do, and the general Necron ranged game isn't that OP - it's the opportunity of their durability. Play Orks instead, as you love to tell Tau players. See who dies faster.) However, a squad of 5 Space Marines alone pays for 5 Space Marines. Not 5 Space Marines and a transport. That 14 ppm pays for a Marine. Reduce that cost, but it's still a single Marine. If you want to address the issue of Marine durability or cost, increase the durability or reduce the cost to achieve better balance. Do not give free stuff to compensate.
Your argument also suggests that Marines are worth varying amounts against different armies. You say they are worth <14 ppm against Tau/Eldar/Necrons. But what do they cost vs Guardsmen, CSM, Orks? DO you still get your free transports against them? Do you cost more because you're fighting a weaker enemy? Please answer this.
I tell you what. Play a game against any codex you want using C:SM (except perhaps Chaos Space Marines). However:
1. No drop pods
2. No grav
3. No "free" transports.
4. No psykers.
5. You MUST run a full battle company, but without benefitting from the free transports rule.
6. No allies.
I tell you what. Play a game against any codex you want using C:SM (except perhaps Chaos Space Marines). However:
1. No drop pods 2. No grav 3. No "free" transports. 4. No psykers. 5. You MUST run a full battle company, but without benefitting from the free transports rule. 6. No allies.
Tell me how that game goes.
Already done, played Orks and Tau allies. Guess what?
Spoiler:
I loved the game. Won the game, close though.
I ran full ten man squads on all my Tacticals and Assault Squad, with paid Rhinos on three Tactical Squads, heavy bolters on one Devastator Squad with a paid HB Razorback, flamers on my Bikes, lascannons on my Centurions, and ran my Shield Eternal Captain with Honour Guard in a Land Raider Crusader. My auxiliary was a 1st Company Strikeforce, Tactical and Assault Termies Deep Striking, a min sized unit of Sternguard holding a backfield objective, and an Armoured Strikeforce consisting of a Whirlwind, Vindicator and Predator, with Techmarine.
I tell you what. Play a game against any codex you want using C:SM (except perhaps Chaos Space Marines). However:
1. No drop pods
2. No grav
3. No "free" transports.
4. No psykers.
5. You MUST run a full battle company, but without benefitting from the free transports rule.
6. No allies.
Tell me how that game goes.
No Psykers? A full Battle Company? Are you trying to run the most static list imaginable?
How about I put everything in a vehicle and drive you nuts with 12 tanks on the board?
I tell you what. Play a game against any codex you want using C:SM (except perhaps Chaos Space Marines). However:
1. No drop pods
2. No grav
3. No "free" transports.
4. No psykers.
5. You MUST run a full battle company, but without benefitting from the free transports rule.
6. No allies.
Tell me how that game goes.
Heck, I do this on a weekly basis and most of my games go pretty well for me. Even those that are against Tau/Eldar/Crons.
I tell you what. Play a game against any codex you want using C:SM (except perhaps Chaos Space Marines). However:
1. No drop pods
2. No grav
3. No "free" transports.
4. No psykers.
5. You MUST run a full battle company, but without benefitting from the free transports rule.
6. No allies.
Tell me how that game goes.
Heck, I do this on a weekly basis and most of my games go pretty well for me. Even those that are against Tau/Eldar/Crons.
Mr_Piddlez wrote: Can Plain Ol' CSM even be cheesy? I'm just gonna mark no and move on...
It's extremely difficult. Do you run an army consisting only of defilers (and even then, defilers are expensive, points wise) and helldrakes?
I honestly laughed at the defiler thing. You may be thinking of the soul grinder that demons get. Similar looking models, very different power levels. Heldrake wise, I only run one, but even with three, there is enough anti air in the game to deal with them. The limited firing arc doesn't help either.
Currently I play a cheesy list, a CSM + Cabal + KDK deathstar.
It's the only way to realistically fight for the top tables of a tournament on CSM however.
No one really complains, they think getting beaten by CSM is great. Gladius Strike Forces can't even touch the deathstar as mostly they are filled with grav. Against the chaos star they require a 6 to hit, 6 to wound, after which I have an Invulnerable/Shrouded Cover Save and a 4+ Feel No Pain. And a unit with around 47 Wounds that Scouts, moves 12" a turn ignoring difficult terrain and has a 2+ Cover Save in Ruins.
Run as a wide line, charge the enemys metal boxes, afterwards eat the marines inside for dessert.
It don't matter if you get it for free if it gets wrecked on turn 2.
I have a pretty decent sized IF army so I can run pretty much anything. If we play a cutthroat game, I'll bring the bike conclave, sternhammer (army is stubborn and all bolt weapons are basically TL) and Grav Cents. If not, I'm probably bringing sternguard and my blender units.
My KDK, I don't think I can make cheese out of. Same can be said for my Noise Marines w/traitor guard allies.
Traditio wrote: Yeah, I don't think that free transports are even remotely cheesy. A free rhino for a 5 man marine squad, or a free razorback for a 10 man marine squad, are well within the bounds of what can be considered reasonable.
This is the person who says Fire Warriors with Pulse Rifles are OP, everyone. \o/
Just wait 'till I throw my Ethereal and Railfinders into the mix! You'll all be drowning in cheese!
Sgt_Smudge wrote:Already done, played Orks and Tau allies.
I'm not entirely sure what this means. You played a game in which you used ultramarines, and your opponent was using orks with tau allies?
I ran full ten man squads on all my Tacticals and Assault Squad
How many squads of tactical marines did you run?
Did you put jump packs on that assault squad? If you did, you can't field a rhino with them as a dedicated transport.
flamers on my Bikes
Bikes can't field a rhino as a dedicated transport.
lascannons on my Centurions
Centurions can't field a rhino, etc. as a dedicated transport.
and ran my Shield Eternal Captain with Honour Guard in a Land Raider Crusader.
1. You can only bring honor guard in a gladius if you take the Strike Force Command selection.
2. Chaplain?
My auxiliary was a 1st Company Strikeforce, Tactical and Assault Termies Deep Striking, a min sized unit of Sternguard holding a backfield objective, and an Armoured Strikeforce consisting of a Whirlwind, Vindicator and Predator, with Techmarine.
What was the points limit for this game?
At any rate, you're criticizing free transports in the gladius strike force battle company, and my response to this was: "Fine. Then play a battle company without them." You responded by saying that you fielded a bunch of units that can't even take free transports in the first place. Let me be more specific, Sgt. Smudge:
You play a game wherein you use:
A captain A chaplain 6 tactical squads 2 devastator squads 2 assault marine squads without jump packs.
Plus an auxillary of your choice.
And you actually pay the 350 or 550 points on 10 rhinos or razorbacks.
Do not use drop pods, psykers or grav.
Play against absolutely anyone other than orks or chaos space marines.
Tactical_Spam wrote: I think you are still trying to get people to play like you do... Have you purchased a tank by any chance, Traditio?
Why would he purchase any models ? Don't you know people should tailor their list against what models he has and not bring anything that can do any real sorta of damage to his units or face the wrath of being called "Cheese" and/or "Overpowered" ?
Sgt_Smudge wrote:Already done, played Orks and Tau allies.
I'm not entirely sure what this means. You played a game in which you used ultramarines, and your opponent was using orks with tau allies?
I'm sure you know what this means.
I played an Ultramarines list, against a player who fielded Orks and Tau. I cannot remember which of the two was the Primary Detachment, but he certainly took more points of Tau than he did Orks.
I ran full ten man squads on all my Tacticals and Assault Squad
How many squads of tactical marines did you run?
Did you put jump packs on that assault squad? If you did, you can't field a rhino with them as a dedicated transport.
I'm not sure if you're trying to insult my intelligence, so I'll assume not.
I am aware of what can take transports, and that 6 Tactical Squads make up a Company.
6 ten man squads were taken, three of which I gave Rhinos.
My Assault Marines (ten man) were using jump packs. Why would I have wanted a Rhino on them?
flamers on my Bikes
Bikes can't field a rhino as a dedicated transport.
Again, I'm not sure if you take me for a fool.
I am aware of this - and fail to see why this is relevant.
lascannons on my Centurions
Centurions can't field a rhino, etc. as a dedicated transport.
My point above. I am aware they cannot take Rhinos.
and ran my Shield Eternal Captain with Honour Guard in a Land Raider Crusader.
1. You can only bring honor guard in a gladius if you take the Strike Force Command selection.
2. Chaplain?
I am aware of this. I assumed you realise that I took a Strike Force Command - not a problem with your previous restrictions. I did forget to mention Sicarius following them, but I fail to see how this then becomes relevant.
My Chaplain was with my Assault Marines - with a jump pack, funnily enough.
My auxiliary was a 1st Company Strikeforce, Tactical and Assault Termies Deep Striking, a min sized unit of Sternguard holding a backfield objective, and an Armoured Strikeforce consisting of a Whirlwind, Vindicator and Predator, with Techmarine.
What was the points limit for this game?
Big. I can't remember the exacts, but I think somewhere between 3k-4k?
At any rate, you're criticizing free transports in the gladius strike force battle company, and my response to this was: "Fine. Then play a battle company without them." You responded by saying that you fielded a bunch of units that can't even take free transports in the first place.
Which you never prohibited in your inital statement. I fielded what you asked for - a Gladius with a Battle Company with no drop pods, pskyers, grav, free transports against CSM.
I took a list I wanted. That happened to include units which cannot take transports because
1) I do not own the models to set it up in any other way (unless I proxied some guys as Devastators, or halved my Assault Squad size - both of which either anti-fluff (the half size Assault Squad) or not aesthetically pleasing and would result in a poor spectacle.
2) I prefer those units in my battle plan. Taking transports was not essential to my winning, and my result proved it.
Case in point - I took a Battle Company. Battle Companies can use Centurions and Bikes - I used this fact.
Let me be more specific, Sgt. Smudge:
You play a game wherein you use:
A captain
A chaplain
6 tactical squads
2 devastator squads
2 assault marine squads without jump packs.
Plus an auxillary of your choice.
And you actually pay the 350 or 550 points on 10 rhinos or razorbacks.
Do not use drop pods, psykers or grav.
Play against absolutely anyone other than orks or chaos space marines.
Tell me how that game goes.
SWIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISH
IS THAT THE SOUND OF MOVING GOALPOSTS I HEAR?
For your ease, I have bolded the instances where you move the goalpost from your original statement.
1) You told me to field a Battle Company. Which I did. You never specified I had to take certain units from my selection. Battle Companies allow for more than just power armoured infantry, funnily enough.
2) You never said I was obliged to take transports - especially when they don't fit with my combat strategy.
3) You only said CSM was an unfair matchup. Now you see I fought Orks, you move the goalposts again.
TL;DR
I win this one. I obeyed your initial request. Recognise that.
Tactical_Spam wrote: I think you are still trying to get people to play like you do... Have you purchased a tank by any chance, Traditio?
Why would he purchase any models ? Don't you know people should tailor their list against what models he has and not bring anything that can do any real sorta of damage to his units or face the wrath of being called "Cheese" and/or "Overpowered" ?
My point:
It's commonly recognized that the kind of army that I've described is not particularly competitive. If you actually ran that army, you would be at a severe disadvantages in most cases. You need free rhinos just to make for an even match-up.
"Free" rhinos aren't OP or cheesy.
Grav, librarian and drop pod shenanigans? Cheesy as cheesy comes, at least, potentially.
"Free" rhinos?
Not so much.
The points system is supposed to effect equality. Let's assume a "free" rhino:
Is 5 tactical marines with bolters and a "free" rhino (70 points) slightly better than a space marine bike squad? (63 points)
Is 5 tactical marines with bolters and a "free" rhino slightly worse than a squad of 3 scatter bikes? (81 points)
I know this:
5 tactical marines with bolters with a rhino (105 points) is not significantly better than a space marine bike squad (63 points), nor are 5 tactical marines with bolters and a rhino significantly better than 3 scatter bikes.
Sgt. Smudge will answer that the individual units themselves need to have their points adjusted.
But it's not that simple. Running a tactical squad in a CAD isn't the same thing as running 6 tactical squads in a battle company.
Tactical_Spam wrote: I think you are still trying to get people to play like you do... Have you purchased a tank by any chance, Traditio?
Why would he purchase any models ? Don't you know people should tailor their list against what models he has and not bring anything that can do any real sorta of damage to his units or face the wrath of being called "Cheese" and/or "Overpowered" ?
Not to mention if you spend £85 or more (the price of a Knight), you should had given that money to charity?
I'm starting to doubt if this hobby is the one for you, Traditio.
I win this one. I obeyed your initial request. Recognise that.
Yes. If you run a battle company in such a way that you largely obviate the need for free transports, then you can still be competitive even without free transports.
[sarcasm]Congratulations. Point well made.[/sarcasm]
The point that you are making here is just asinine.
The spirit behind my point is that a battle company without free transports, if you run it in such a way that you could indeed get 10 or so free transports, generally does not do well without free transports.
I win this one. I obeyed your initial request. Recognise that.
Yes. If you run a battle company in such a way that you largely obviate the need for free transports, then you can still be competitive even without free transports.
[sarcasm]Congratulations. Point well made.[/sarcasm]
The point that you are making here is just asinine.
The spirit behind my point is that a battle company without free transports, if you run it in such a way that you could indeed get 10 or so free transports, generally does not do well without free transports.
Ummm,,, He could have taken free transports. He *DIDN'T* and still won. His army was in no way optimal. He had 10 man squads for crying out loud. He was paying for extra bolter dudes when those points could have gone towards more units and more special weapons.
He still won.
Tell me again how bad Marines are and how anything that doesn't carry Grav is utterly worthless...
I win this one. I obeyed your initial request. Recognise that.
Yes. If you run a battle company in such a way that you largely obviate the need for free transports, then you can still be competitive even without free transports.
[sarcasm]Congratulations. Point well made.[/sarcasm]
The point that you are making here is just asinine.
The spirit behind my point is that a battle company without free transports, if you run it in such a way that you could indeed get 10 or so free transports, generally does not do well without free transports.
The spirit of your argument is WRONG.
I, with my (albeit anecdotal) evidence - which you asked for - disproved it. I won a game using a Battle Company without free transports. I dislike using said free transports, and instead run units which I like for aesthetic and gameplay reasons. Funnily enough, I did not take this list with knowledge of your asinine challenge. I ran it for personal pleasure.
Your ORIGINAL point: You cannot win with a Battle Company without abusing the free transports.
Me: Yes I can.
You: *blotting out my evidence and moving the goalposts*
SWIIISH
Lord Corellia wrote:Ummm,,, He could have taken free transports. He *DIDN'T* and still won. His army was in no way optimal. He had 10 man squads for crying out loud. He was paying for extra bolter dudes when those points could have gone towards more units and more special weapons.
10 man squads isn't "extra" bolters. He likely had the same number of bolters as he would have, had he taken 2 - five man squads. 8 bolters. The difference is that, instead of 2 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons, he likely took 1 of each.
He still won.
"Orks." Do I really have to point out the fact that his opponent was using orks?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:The spirit of your argument is WRONG. I, with my (albeit anecdotal) evidence - which you asked for - disproved it. I won a game using a Battle Company without free transports. I dislike using said free transports, and instead run units which I like for aesthetic and gameplay reasons. Funnily enough, I did not take this list with knowledge of your asinine challenge. I ran it for personal pleasure.
Your ORIGINAL point: You cannot win with a Battle Company without abusing the free transports.
Me: Yes I can.
You: *blotting out my evidence and moving the goalposts* SWIIISH
I am going to ask you a simple question:
Suppose player A runs:
A captain A chaplain 6 tactical squads 2 devastator squads 2 assault marines without jump packs. 3 scout squads 10 rhinos
Assume that he is paying the full points costs for all of the above, and is not using grav weaponry.
How would he do against the point equivalence of tau?
Eldar?
Imperial Guard?
Dark Eldar?
Automatically Appended Next Post: One further point, Sgt:
What was your opponent running? Yes, I get ork + tau allies.
Lord Corellia wrote:Ummm,,, He could have taken free transports. He *DIDN'T* and still won. His army was in no way optimal. He had 10 man squads for crying out loud. He was paying for extra bolter dudes when those points could have gone towards more units and more special weapons.
10 man squads isn't "extra" bolters. He likely had the same number of bolters as he would have, had he taken 2 - five man squads. 8 bolters. The difference is that, instead of 2 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons, he likely took 1 of each.
He still won.
"Orks." Do I really have to point out the fact that his opponent was using orks?
SWIIIIIIIIIISH
Goalposts are zipping all over the place.
My opponent took more points of TAU than Orks. Does that not balance out according to you?
My typical Tactical Squad loadouts were heavy weapon and special.
Two of these squads were F/ML Two were PG/LC, with power weapons and combi-plasmas on the Sergeants.
The last two were MG/MM/combi-melta
For the record - I only EVER use ten man squads. Five mans feel wrong to me, and a proper Battle Company should have maxed out power armoured squads where possible. My only exception is on Devastator and Centurion Squads.
They took some units of Trukk boys and plenty of footsloggers, Painboyz in some units, some Tankbustas and rokkit Deffkoptas, DLS Warboss and PK Nob retinue in a Battlewagon with KFF Big Mek.
The Tau end was two full units of Fire Warriors in transports, a Riptide, Crisis Bomb (plasma rifles), MSU Pathfinders, with a Fireblade and Commander.
Don't hold me too closely to this - I cannot recall if I've forgotten stuff and various upgrades, but this is the stuff I remember. That's the gist of it.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: They took some units of Trukk boys and plenty of footsloggers, Painboyz in some units, some Tankbustas and rokkit Deffkoptas, DLS Warboss and PK Nob retinue in a Battlewagon with KFF Big Mek.
The Tau end was two full units of Fire Warriors in transports, a Riptide, Crisis Bomb (plasma rifles), MSU Pathfinders, with a Fireblade and Commander.
Don't hold me too closely to this - I cannot recall if I've forgotten stuff and various upgrades, but this is the stuff I remember. That's the gist of it.
Would it be fair to describe your opponent's list as a "fun" list which the average dakka fora member would not consider as even remotely competitive?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: They took some units of Trukk boys and plenty of footsloggers, Painboyz in some units, some Tankbustas and rokkit Deffkoptas, DLS Warboss and PK Nob retinue in a Battlewagon with KFF Big Mek.
The Tau end was two full units of Fire Warriors in transports, a Riptide, Crisis Bomb (plasma rifles), MSU Pathfinders, with a Fireblade and Commander.
Don't hold me too closely to this - I cannot recall if I've forgotten stuff and various upgrades, but this is the stuff I remember. That's the gist of it.
Would it be fair to describe your opponent's list as a "fun" list which the average dakka fora member would not consider as even remotely competitive?
I'd say it was a fun list. Not a pushover, but certainly not competitive. I won't deny that.
Now, I'm waiting for the point you will make - "BUT IT WASN'T COMPETITIVE SO MY POINT IS VALID".
It's not.
Your statement = A Battle Company CANNOT win without using the free transports.
Not only did I win, but I did so using sub-par tools (full Tactical Squads - no grav or Drop Pods - mixed vehicle support - Tactical Termies) and beat a non-competitive, mediocre list.
Against your statement, I have done all that was asked.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:I'd say it was a fun list. Not a pushover, but certainly not competitive. I won't deny that.
Now, I'm waiting for the point you will make - "BUT IT WASN'T COMPETITIVE SO MY POINT IS VALID".
It's not.
Your statement = A Battle Company CANNOT win without using the free transports.
Not only did I win, but I did so using sub-par tools (full Tactical Squads - no grav or Drop Pods - mixed vehicle support - Tactical Termies) and beat a non-competitive, mediocre list.
Against your statement, I have done all that was asked.
I'll let the facts speak for themselves.
At any rate, this is ultimately irrelevant to the OP, which sets the criterion for cheese as "publicly recognized." It's not obvious to me that free rhinos are publicly considered cheesy.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:I'd say it was a fun list. Not a pushover, but certainly not competitive. I won't deny that.
Now, I'm waiting for the point you will make - "BUT IT WASN'T COMPETITIVE SO MY POINT IS VALID".
It's not.
Your statement = A Battle Company CANNOT win without using the free transports.
Not only did I win, but I did so using sub-par tools (full Tactical Squads - no grav or Drop Pods - mixed vehicle support - Tactical Termies) and beat a non-competitive, mediocre list.
Against your statement, I have done all that was asked.
I'll let the facts speak for themselves.
At any rate, this is ultimately irrelevant to the OP, which sets the criterion for cheese as "publicly recognized." It's not obvious to me that free rhinos are publicly considered cheesy.
I don't think anyone considers Librarians, Centurians and Drop Pods cheesy. Its only when you abuse it.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:I'd say it was a fun list. Not a pushover, but certainly not competitive. I won't deny that.
Now, I'm waiting for the point you will make - "BUT IT WASN'T COMPETITIVE SO MY POINT IS VALID".
It's not.
Your statement = A Battle Company CANNOT win without using the free transports.
Not only did I win, but I did so using sub-par tools (full Tactical Squads - no grav or Drop Pods - mixed vehicle support - Tactical Termies) and beat a non-competitive, mediocre list.
Against your statement, I have done all that was asked.
I'll let the facts speak for themselves.
At any rate, this is ultimately irrelevant to the OP, which sets the criterion for cheese as "publicly recognized." It's not obvious to me that free rhinos are publicly considered cheesy.
So now that he did exactly what you asked in a game against an opponent who wasn't competitive (but not incompetent/under-powered), you label this whole sub-discussion ultimately irrelevant? Are you kidding me? Ah well.... I guess that's as close as we'll get to you conceding defeat on something.
Tactical_Spam wrote:I don't think anyone considers Librarians, Centurians and Drop Pods cheesy. Its only when you abuse it.
I agree with this. Cheesy-ness only comes from abuse in the case of these units.
At any rate, this is ultimately irrelevant to the OP, which sets the criterion for cheese as "publicly recognized." It's not obvious to me that free rhinos are publicly considered cheesy.
Let whatever you like speak for whichever point you try to allocate it to. You cannot rephrase the question after asking it and still go "swish, I win." Sorry if he proved you wrong and you feel a fool.
The OP is ultimately and utterly irrelevant to anything as it is. "Publicly recognized" is tough to hammer down when the "public" (ie, members of this forum) are openly stating that there isn't a commonly agreed upon definition of cheese.
This thread is essentially "Does your army live up to Traditio's ridiculous yet ever-shifting standards or are you a TFG because I don't want to buy grav or drop pods?" It's a joke.
Tactical_Spam wrote:I don't think anyone considers Librarians, Centurians and Drop Pods cheesy. Its only when you abuse it.
I didn't claim that they are. My purpose in excluding those things is to focus on whether free transports, as such, is cheesy or OP.
By your own logic it is.
The Wraithknight is OP because it is undercosted meaning you effectively have something in terms of power you have not paid for. I believe you said it was undercosted by about 100 points?
Free transports give at least 350 points of power for free. You can't argue that one is OP and the other is not without shifting goalposts around.
IllumiNini wrote:So now that he did exactly what you asked in a game
He did exactly what I asked in a game, going by the strict letter of what I wrote. Completely ignoring the obvious intent, but he did go by the letter. Congrats to him.
Let me be clear:
I am not going to argue about words.
I also wish to note that Sgt. Smudge, and the other interlocutors in this thread, have completely ignored my subsequent posting:
"I am going to ask you a simple question:
Suppose player A runs:
A captain
A chaplain
6 tactical squads
2 devastator squads
2 assault marines without jump packs.
3 scout squads
10 rhinos
Assume that he is paying the full points costs for all of the above, and is not using grav weaponry.
How would he do against the point equivalence of tau?
Eldar?
Imperial Guard?
Dark Eldar?"
The fact that Sgt. Smudge has met this posting of mine with silence speaks volumes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:By your own logic it is.
The Wraithknight is OP because it is undercosted meaning you effectively have something in terms of power you have not paid for. I believe you said it was undercosted by about 100 points?
Free transports give at least 350 points of power for free. You can't argue that one is OP and the other is not without shifting goalposts around.
I deny the bolded.
I've said this before, and I'll say it again. There is no such thing as "free" rhinos in the gladius strike force battle company. The "free" rhinos are factored into the total points cost of the units which form the battle company.
You're not getting a rhino for free. You're getting a captain, a chaplain, 10 - 5 to 10 man squads of marines and an auxillary (say, 3 - 5 man squads of scouts), up to 2 dreadnoughts (optional) and up to 2 command squads (also optional) and up to 10-14 rhinos, etc. for x amount of points (x being greater than 1000).
But I've asked this kind of question before:
The purpose of the points system is to effect equality. Let us assume that 5 marines with bolters and a rhino is 70 points. Is a wraithknight only slightly better than 4 of those squads?
IllumiNini wrote:So now that he did exactly what you asked in a game
He did exactly what I asked in a game, going by the strict letter of what I wrote. Completely ignoring the obvious intent, but he did go by the letter. Congrats to him.
Let me be clear:
I am not going to argue about words.
Well regardless of whether the intent was obvious, and regardless of whether the intent was ignored: Do not under-estimate the power of specificity. Your intent got ignored because it was intent rather than a specified request? That's on you. Don't dodge that.
In your subsequent request, you've failed to nominate any restrictions on his opponent, meaning his opponent could tailor a list that's easily beaten by you requirements for the Space Marines. That being said, any restrictions you're likely to impose will make it (nigh) impossible for them to win. So in either case: What's the point?
Automatically Appended Next Post: The battle Company also factors in the potential for free transports. It doesn't factor in them being automatically taken.
IllumiNini wrote:Well regardless of whether the intent was obvious, and regardless of whether the intent was ignored: Do not under-estimate the power of specificity. Your intent got ignored because it was intent rather than a specified request? That's on you. Don't dodge that.
I didn't phrase my request to the pedantic, nit-picking standards of persons who love to rules-lawyer and quibble over grammatical points in the YMDC forum.
My bad. [/sarcasm]
In your subsequent request, you've failed to nominate any restrictions on his opponent, meaning his opponent could tailor a list that's easily beaten by you requirements for the Space Marines. That being said, any restrictions you're likely to impose will make it (nigh) impossible for them to win. So in either case: What's the point?
IllumiNini wrote:Well regardless of whether the intent was obvious, and regardless of whether the intent was ignored: Do not under-estimate the power of specificity. Your intent got ignored because it was intent rather than a specified request? That's on you. Don't dodge that.
I didn't phrase my request to the pedantic, nit-picking standards of persons who love to rules-lawyer and quibble over grammatical points in the YMDC forum.
My bad. [/sarcasm]
Stuck in a rut of sarcasm, stubbornness and (arguable) rudeness... what joy for the rest of us.
In your subsequent request, you've failed to nominate any restrictions on his opponent, meaning his opponent could tailor a list that's easily beaten by you requirements for the Space Marines. That being said, any restrictions you're likely to impose will make it (nigh) impossible for them to win. So in either case: What's the point?
Against the most common lists.
And how do you define "...the most common lists"? Because you know that's going to differ greatly anywhere you go....
IllumiNini wrote:And how do you define "...the most common lists"? Because you know that's going to differ greatly anywhere you go....
Oy vey.
This is loki's fallacy.
You have an idea of what the most common lists are for any given codex. Dark Eldar, e.g., is going to spam venoms and raiders.
No I don't, actually because I don't play against them enough, and nor am I familiar with their Codeces. So when you decide to actually be specific, enlighten me.
IllumiNini wrote:And how do you define "...the most common lists"? Because you know that's going to differ greatly anywhere you go....
Oy vey.
This is loki's fallacy.
You have an idea of what the most common lists are for any given codex. Dark Eldar, e.g., is going to spam venoms and raiders.
No I don't, actually because I don't play against them enough, and nor am I familiar with their Codeces. So when you decide to actually be specific, enlighten me.
DE: Raiders and venoms filled with warriors. Blasters and lances.
Tau: riptides, broadsides, crisis suits, fire warriors, pathfinders, etc.
Eldar: Scatter bikes and wraithknights
Imperial Guard: Leeman Russ spam OR infantry and barrage artillery spam.
Let's start with those.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Heck, let's even throw in:
Traditio wrote: The "free" rhinos are factored into the total points cost of the units which form the battle company.
No they aren't. Those units have point costs that were established before the free Rhinos/Razorbacks/pods were added, and have the same point costs in detachments that don't give free transports.
The purpose of the points system is to effect equality. Let us assume that 5 marines with bolters and a rhino is 70 points. Is a wraithknight only slightly better than 4 of those squads?
Depends on how you define "better". If your goal is to win a game with objectives then the MSU marines are better. If, as you prefer to do, you simply line up both sides and roll dice until one side is destroyed as your measure of balance, the wraithknight probably wins.
IllumiNini wrote:And how do you define "...the most common lists"? Because you know that's going to differ greatly anywhere you go....
Oy vey.
This is loki's fallacy.
You have an idea of what the most common lists are for any given codex. Dark Eldar, e.g., is going to spam venoms and raiders.
Did "loki's fallacy" come up on your "fallacy of the day" calendar or something?
This is your thread, your poll, you have every right to define the limitations of the term cheese in the context you're applying it.
What you're actually doing is making it up and revising it as you go to suit your own arguments, while giving nobody else a level playing field to argue your points because they're constantly in motion.
It's like a fething shell game, only you don't have the decency to pack up and leg it when people spot that you're hiding the ball in your pocket.
Why not? Are you also going to assume that the Eldar player is not using scatter lasers, the DE player is not using lances, the Tau player is not using ion weapons, etc?
Peregrine wrote:No they aren't. Those units have point costs that were established before the free Rhinos/Razorbacks/pods were added, and have the same point costs in detachments that don't give free transports.
I could simply answer that the lack of free rhinos is, de facto, a higher points cost that you are paying in exchange for greater list-building flexibility. A rhino is free if and only if you have a full battle company and have taken a unit that qualifies for a free rhino. Having to take a full battle company in and of itself constitutes a "cost" of getting the free rhinos.
You elect instead to take a CAD? You are paying "more" for the rhino and the tacs in exchange for being able to bring what you want within the context of a CAD.
Depends on how you define "better". If your goal is to win a game with objectives then the MSU marines are better. If, as you prefer to do, you simply line up both sides and roll dice until one side is destroyed as your measure of balance, the wraithknight probably wins.
How many rhinos and 5 man tac squads can a wraithknight kill over the course of a game?
How many wraithknights can 4 - 5 man tac squads and their rhinos kill in the course of a game?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azreal wrote:Did "loki's fallacy" come up on your "fallacy of the day" calendar or something?
Loki's fallacy:
Various deities: "We're sick of you, Loki. We're going to chop off your head now."
Loki: "Fine. But can only cut at the neck. No shoulders. No head."
Various deities begin to squabble over precisely where the neck is.
I'm not going to have a verbal dispute about something that should be patently obvious to anyone without a personal interest.
Traditio wrote: I could simply answer that the lack of free rhinos is, de facto, a higher points cost that you are paying in exchange for greater list-building flexibility. A rhino is free if and only if you have a full battle company and have taken a unit that qualifies for a free rhino. Having to take a full battle company in and of itself constitutes a "cost" of getting the free rhinos.
You elect instead to take a CAD? You are paying "more" for the rhino and the tacs in exchange for being able to bring what you want within the context of a CAD.
Ok. Then I expect you to never, under any circumstances, complain about "free" bonuses that other detachments get.
How many rhinos and 5 man tac squads can a wraithknight kill over the course of a game?
How many wraithknights can 4 - 5 man tac squads and their rhinos kill in the course of a game?
Why do I care? If I'm playing MSU marines I just claim the objectives and win the game. We might as well conclude that your C:SM army is overpowered cheese because it can make more 3+ armor saves against lasgun fire than my IG can make against bolter fire. Technically it's a true statement, but you've rigged the game by only looking at the small part of the balance picture that favors your argument.
Traditio wrote: I'm not going to have a verbal dispute about something that should be patently obvious to anyone without a personal interest.
IOW: "if you ever come up with an example that counters my point I'm just going to dismiss it as "not what I was talking about" and refuse to admit defeat." Does your C:SM detachment allow you to give each squad a free set of goal posts on wheels?
Peregrine wrote:Ok. Then I expect you to never, under any circumstances, complain about "free" bonuses that other detachments get.
Search my posting history. I don't think that I've ever made any such complaints.
I've actually argued the exact opposite way. Go back to my thread about how formations have the best possibility of balancing the game.
My complaints have nothing to do with anyone getting "free" stuff. In virtue of the fact that you're taking a formation, it's not free. (The exception are things like the windrider host and the aspect host in the Eldar codex; there's nothing really taxing about those formations).
Why do I care? If I'm playing MSU marines I just claim the objectives and win the game.
Of the 4 - 5 man tac squads and their "free" rhinos, faced against that wraithknight, how many can I reasonable expect to survive to claim an objective at the end of turn 5 (or, what is more likely, turn 6)?
You have an idea of what the most common lists are for any given codex. Dark Eldar, e.g., is going to spam venoms and raiders.
Traditio wrote: DE: Raiders and venoms filled with warriors. Blasters and lances.
Tau: riptides, broadsides, crisis suits, fire warriors, pathfinders, etc.
Eldar: Scatter bikes and wraithknights
Imperial Guard: Leeman Russ spam OR infantry and barrage artillery spam.
Let's start with those.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Heck, let's even throw in:
SM: White scars bike spam.
You *DO* realize you're making the assumption that the most common lists are the so-called over-spammed cheesefests you hate so much right?
I don't really know what kind of meta you play in but it must be full of jerks if you have this big a chip on your shoulder about people always playing competitive lists. Let me ask you this:
What were the approximate lists your opponents fielded in your last three regular games. Not counting league or tournament play if you happen to be involved in that sort of thing. Just friendly pick up games.
Traditio wrote: I'm not going to have a verbal dispute about something that should be patently obvious to anyone without a personal interest.
IOW: "if you ever come up with an example that counters my point I'm just going to dismiss it as "not what I was talking about" and refuse to admit defeat." Does your C:SM detachment allow you to give each squad a free set of goal posts on wheels?
I'm just wondering why even bother arguing, isnt tradit a pretty well known troll by now?
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Oh great, now we're back to "Bolters should be able to kill everything"
Tac marines also have krak grenades. So, there's that.
Have you played against anything with AV13 or AV14 recently? Because this concept seems to say that you have never, ever played against vehicles with those Armour Values. Not to mention a complete ignorance of the capabilities of those grenades.
War Kitten wrote:Gotta give you props Traditio, not since Jancoran and the Forgeworld thread has one user been able to inspire so much arguing in a thread.
You have an idea of what the most common lists are for any given codex. Dark Eldar, e.g., is going to spam venoms and raiders.
Traditio wrote: DE: Raiders and venoms filled with warriors. Blasters and lances.
Tau: riptides, broadsides, crisis suits, fire warriors, pathfinders, etc.
Eldar: Scatter bikes and wraithknights
Imperial Guard: Leeman Russ spam OR infantry and barrage artillery spam.
Let's start with those.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Heck, let's even throw in:
SM: White scars bike spam.
You *DO* realize you're making the assumption that the most common lists are the so-called over-spammed cheesefests you hate so much right?
I don't really know what kind of meta you play in but it must be full of jerks if you have this big a chip on your shoulder about people always playing competitive lists. Let me ask you this:
What were the approximate lists your opponents fielded in your last three regular games. Not counting league or tournament play if you happen to be involved in that sort of thing. Just friendly pick up games.
This. 100% this. Pay this post some attention and consideration, Traditio.
cosmicsoybean wrote: I'm just wondering why even bother arguing, isnt tradit a pretty well known troll by now?
I've been asking myself the same question, too. Apparently Traditio is either trolling, has a complete and utter inability to be convinced, or both.
Lord Corellia wrote:You *DO* realize you're making the assumption that the most common lists are the so-called over-spammed cheesefests you hate so much right?
I don't really know what kind of meta you play in but it must be full of jerks if you have this big a chip on your shoulder about people always playing competitive lists. Let me ask you this:
What were the approximate lists your opponents fielded in your last three regular games. Not counting league or tournament play if you happen to be involved in that sort of thing. Just friendly pick up games.
This is the list that I run, with 5 "free" rhinos.
The last game I played was Friday against Dark Eldar. 2002 points for him vs. 1850 of my marines (2015 if you include "free" rhinos). Venoms, raiders (with warriors) and reaver jetbikes. He also brought a flier (that barely did anything before I took it out in a single round of devastator shooting; flakk...never leave home without it) and some formation that included a talos pain engine, a homunculus with webway portal and some other MC that looked like a talos pain engine, but wasn't [whatever they were, they -wrecked- my day! ] He also had a medusa, some winged jump troops...I may be missing things.
Before that, last game I remember playing was a 2 v 2. 1350 per person. Dark Eldar (a shortened version of the list I described above) and Eldar (Wraithknight, scatbikes, farseers, dark reapers and fire dragons) vs. Imperial Knights (3 imperial knights and a 10-man unit of the skitarii infantry that fire the RAD poisoning rounds) and a shortened version of my list.
I forget exactly what was the last game I played before that. But the last one I remember was I a game I played online vs. a Gray Knights player. 2 teleporting dreadknights, purifiers and terminators. WL was Brother-Captain Stern.
Traditio wrote: Search my posting history. I don't think that I've ever made any such complaints.
I seem to recall you complaining about Necrons and their formation that makes them "too durable". By your own argument that isn't something you can complain about, since the Necron player pays the appropriate price by accepting the limitations of a formation.
(The exception are things like the windrider host and the aspect host in the Eldar codex; there's nothing really taxing about those formations).
IOW, "getting free bonuses for taking a formation is always fine, except for the formations that I don't like". If you get to add the Eldar formations to the list of exceptions then I get to add your free transports.
Of the 4 - 5 man tac squads and their "free" rhinos, faced against that wraithknight, how many can I reasonable expect to survive to claim an objective at the end of turn 5 (or, what is more likely, turn 6)?
Let's assume the Wraithknight automatically kills a unit every turn. Your MSU marines are 8-10 units, and your test gives the Wraithknight 6 turns to kill all of them. At the end of 6 turns you have at least two obsec units (8 total - 6 dead) on objectives, while the Wraithknight can control one at most (zero if the only objectives available to it already have your marines on them). You win at least 2-1 on objectives.
Conclusion: Wraithknights are underpowered and need to be buffed.
Peregrine wrote:I seem to recall you complaining about Necrons and their formation that makes them "too durable". By your own argument that isn't something you can complain about, since the Necron player pays the appropriate price by accepting the limitations of a formation.
I made the exact opposite claim. I asserted in the proposed rules forum that the problem with Necrons is -not- the Decurion. If 5+ reanimation protocols isn't OP, then it seems scarcely correct to say that adding 1 to it is broken.
And even if I did say it, my problem wouldn't be the fact that it's "free." My problem would be the fact that the bonus itself is too good, whether or not it's free.
IOW, "getting free bonuses for taking a formation is always fine, except for the formations that I don't like". If you get to add the Eldar formations to the list of exceptions then I get to add your free transports.
Except, not. The aspect host basically allows you to take whatever you want. Same with the wraith construct auxillary.
The battle company? Not so much. It's much more restrictive, very much like the Necron Decurion.
Let's assume the Wraithknight automatically kills a unit every turn.
I see no reason to assume this.
Your MSU marines are 8-10 units
It's 8 units.4 marine squads and 4 rhinos.
and your test gives the Wraithknight 6 turns to kill all of them. At the end of 6 turns you have at least two obsec units on objectives, while the Wraithknight can control one at most. You win 2-1 on objectives.
The wraithknight comes with 2 ranged-D cannons and is a jump gargantuan monstrous creature. Furthermore, the rules clearly permit assaulting a unit that had to disembark from a transport that you wrecked in the shooting phase.
Why should I assume that the wraithknight only kills 1 unit per turn?
That wraithknight has the capability of killing up to 3 or 4 units per turn, if the dice are in the eldar player's favor.
Azreal wrote:Did "loki's fallacy" come up on your "fallacy of the day" calendar or something?
Loki's fallacy:
Various deities: "We're sick of you, Loki. We're going to chop off your head now."
Loki: "Fine. But can only cut at the neck. No shoulders. No head."
Various deities begin to squabble over precisely where the neck is.
I'm not going to have a verbal dispute about something that should be patently obvious to anyone without a personal interest.
Right, so you not only don't know the history, you aren't applying it correctly.
It is, properly, Loki's Wager fallacy, where he bet that he would give up his head if he lost his bet, but when it came to claiming his head, he demanded that the dwarves (not other deities) had no right to his neck. Hence the argument about where the head ends and the neck begins.
What it actually means, in a modern sense, is making an argument that discussing a topic is meaningless because the topic cannot be defined.
(I can't believe I'm having to explain this to you BTW, as you brought it up!)
My point was, and remains, that "cheese" can be defined, as it is your thread, your poll and your right to set the parameters. You have simply not bothered, as, let's be honest, it's the conflict you're looking for, not any reasoned discussion.
Essentially though, from a practical viewpoint, it would be very difficult to define cheese, as it is often subjective, and, as a consequence, a tight definition for the purposes of this discussion, even though that definition would be largely arbitrary, and it would require a lot of time and effort to precisely define what was and wasn't cheesy.
Hence my assertion that this poll, and this entire thread, is basically redundant.
Much better to pull things out of your arse as it suits your arguments and prolong the conflict I guess, eh?
Traditio wrote: If 5+ reanimation protocols isn't OP, then it seems scarcely correct to say that adding 1 to it is broken.
Ah, I see, let's just dismiss a 50% increase in the chance of saving a model as "just adding +1 to it".
And even if I did say it, my problem wouldn't be the fact that it's "free." My problem would be the fact that the bonus itself is too good, whether or not it's free.
This is a terrible argument. Virtually any rule is balanced if the cost is appropriate. Outside of obvious absurd things like "you automatically win the game" there is no such thing as a bonus that is too good, only one that is too good for the price you pay. And when you're getting something for free it's very hard to argue that you're paying the fair price for it.
Except, not. The aspect host basically allows you to take whatever you want. Same with the wraith construct auxillary.
The battle company? Not so much. It's much more restrictive, very much like the Necron Decurion.
I don't know, the battle company seems to be exactly the kind of list you've been playing since before you had formations. It doesn't limit you very much.
Let's assume the Wraithknight automatically kills a unit every turn.
I see no reason to assume this.
You do realize that this is an assumption in your favor, right? If you want to assume that the Wraithknight does even less damage then that's fine with me.
It's 8 units.4 marine squads and 4 rhinos.
Oh, I see, 4x 5-man squads, not 4-5 squads. Good thing I used the low end of that for my example.
Why should I assume that the wraithknight only kills 1 unit per turn?
Because you're not a bad player and you know how to space out your units so that it can't kill two at once? There's no rule that says your marines have to stay embarked until their transport is destroyed. You put 8 units on the table and make sure that your opponent can't kill more than one per turn.
That wraithknight has the capability of killing up to 3 or 4 units per turn, if the dice are in the eldar player's favor.
No, it really doesn't. The absolute most it can kill is two, assuming it fires its D-weapons at two different Rhinos and destroys both of them (not a very likely outcome, btw). It only gets to kill 3-4 if you make a terrible strategic decision and allow the Eldar player to take advantage of the "kill a transport, charge the unit" rule. And at that point we might as well be talking about how many units the Wraithknight kills if the Eldar player decides not to shoot or charge.
Let's assume the Wraithknight automatically kills a unit every turn.
I see no reason to assume this.
Your MSU marines are 8-10 units
It's 8 units.4 marine squads and 4 rhinos.
and your test gives the Wraithknight 6 turns to kill all of them. At the end of 6 turns you have at least two obsec units on objectives, while the Wraithknight can control one at most. You win 2-1 on objectives.
The wraithknight comes with 2 ranged-D cannons and is a jump gargantuan monstrous creature. Furthermore, the rules clearly permit assaulting a unit that had to disembark from a transport that you wrecked in the shooting phase.
Why should I assume that the wraithknight only kills 1 unit per turn?
That wraithknight has the capability of killing up to 3 or 4 units per turn, if the dice are in the eldar player's favor.
A WK is only BS4 iirc, so it'll miss 1 every 3 turns it fires 1 of it's D weapons. Therefore in a 6 turn game, it'll only shoot both weapons a total of 8 times.
1/6 of the time for each hit it'll roll a 1 on the D table, and assuming the Rhino's used their Smoke Launchers like they should or are using cover effectively, 2/3 of the time they'll get at least 5+ save against the D weapon. This means you'll need 6.54 shots on average to kill the Rhinos, leaving 1.46 shots left to kill the Marines inside, resulting in 1.21 dead marines on average.
Basically the WK will have to kill all 4 Marine squads in the assault phase, which it won't have time to do even if it spends time charging some Rhinos.
6 Turns and it'll typically kill all but 2-3 Marine squads.
EDIT: This is also assuming the best case scenario (for you) of the Marines remaining embarked in the Rhinos. The WK would do even worse if they weren't.
Of course, you're assuming Eternal War missions. Maelstrom is even more in the Marine's favour as they're all but guaranteed at least 2-3 free points before the WK is able to kill enough of them.
Forest in top left and bottom right of table. Ruins in bottom left and top right of table. Hill with trees in middle of table. Dome in top middle and bottom middle of table. Forest in left middle and right middle of table.
6 objectives: in left middle forest, right middle forest, hill on middle, dome in bottom middle, forest in right bottom, and dome on top middle of table.
Marines deploy on bottom of table. Wraithknight deploys on top middle dome.
Turn 1, marines: 3 marine squads camp on bottom three objectives. Fourth marine squad moves towards middle right forest objective. Rhino moves in for tree hill objective; gets immobilized. Second rhino moves to same objective. Third rhino approaches objective in left middle forest. Pops smoke. Fourth rhino moves to objective in right middle forest. Pops smoke. Immobilized rhino tries and fails to repair itself.
Turn 1, Wraithknight: fires at middle two rhinos. Misses. Successfully charges one of the middle two rhinos. 4 penetrating hits; no explosion. 1 rhino down.
Turn 2, marines: Far left rhino captures and sits on left middle forest objective. Another rhino approaches and captures right middle forest objective. Fails dangerous terrain test: immobilized. Marines not sitting on objectives approach middle right and left middle forest objectives respectively. Both immobilized rhinos try and fail to repair themselves.
Turn 2, wraithknight: Wraithknight successfully fires on middle immobilized rhino; rolls 5 on the d-table. Deals 3 HP. Rhino successfully saves from cover. Wraithknight successfully fires on left middle rhino; rolls d3 hits on d-table, 2 in total. Rhino gains cover from forest and avoids the hit. Wraithknight charges immobilized rhino and successfully wrecks it.
Turn 3, space marines: 2 tac squads en route to top middle objective. Far right rhino attempts and fails repair.
Turn 3, wraithknight: Wraithknight successfully fires at far left rhino. Rolls 4 on the d-table. Deals 1 HP. Wraithknight successfully fires at bottom middle tac squad. Rolls 5 on d-table. Deals 2 wounds. Marines fail save. Marines succeed leadership test; do not fall back. Wraithknight charges far left rhino and wrecks it.
Turn 4, marines: Transitory marines continue en route to top middle objective. Immobilized rhino fails repair.
Turn 4, wraithknight: Wraithknight fires on a transitory marine squad. Fails to hit roll. Wraithknight fires on marines on bottom middle dome. Fails to hit roll. Charges marines. Marine tries and fails to plant a krak grenade. Wraithknight swings and kills 4 marines outright. Wraithknight stomps on remaining marine. Rolls a one on the damage result.
Turn 5, marines: Rhino tries and fails to repair itself. Transitory rhino squad not in combat continues pursuit of top middle objective. Combat continues. Wraithknight finishes off remaining marine.
Turn 5, wraithknight. Wraithknight fires on transitory marines. Fails to hit roll. Fires on immobilized rhino. Succeeds and rolls a 6 on the d-table. Rhino is wrecked. Unsuccessfully tries to charge marines.
End of game roll: 2. Game ends.
Result: 13 marines remaining. Bottom middle and bottom right objectives under marine control. Third marine squad still in transit to top middle objective. Wraithknight controls no objectives.
I'm not sure if I did the saves against the d-strength shots correctly (do you roll 1 save for all of the wounds to be allocated, or 1 save for each?).
Tradito, the way Destroyer weapons work is you allocate a hit, roll on the destroyer table for that hit on a model, that model takes a single save and if that save is failed then that model takes the D result (no wounds carry over)
CrownAxe wrote: Tradito, the way Destroyer weapons work is you allocate a hit, roll on the destroyer table for that hit on a model, that model takes a single save and if that save is failed then that model takes the D result (no wounds carry over)
Ok, I got this part right, then: I only took one save for each d hit.
Traditio wrote: Result: 13 marines remaining. Bottom middle and bottom right objectives under marine control. Third marine squad still in transit to top middle objective. Wraithknight controls no objectives.
So, pretty much what I was saying. The marines win 2-0 on objectives, with a solid margin of error (11 additional models, including a full third squad that could have replaced one of the other two if necessary). Are you going to acknowledge the need for a Wraithknight buff now?
IllumiNini wrote:So now that he did exactly what you asked in a game
He did exactly what I asked in a game, going by the strict letter of what I wrote. Completely ignoring the obvious intent, but he did go by the letter. Congrats to him.
Let me be clear:
I am not going to argue about words.
I also wish to note that Sgt. Smudge, and the other interlocutors in this thread, have completely ignored my subsequent posting:
"I am going to ask you a simple question:
Suppose player A runs:
A captain
A chaplain
6 tactical squads
2 devastator squads Or grav centurions, if they want a better chance at winning.
2 assault marines without jump packs. Not up to me to determine how this guy plays, but I don't think they make a wise move.
3 scout squads Why scouts?
10 rhinos Why not Razorbacks or Drop Pods? I should be able to choose what I want - if you're hypothetically giving this list to me.
Assume that he is paying the full points costs for all of the above, and is not using grav weaponry. Why not grav? They're missing out on a very effective tool - it would be akin to asking a Guard player not to run any Barrage weapons, Leman Russes or Infantry blobs... oh wait a minute...
How would he do against the point equivalence of tau? Depends what they brought. All Vespids? All Crisis? You cannot generalise an army.
Eldar? Due to the high standard of nearly all Eldar units, this is a little more like what your biased question is leading towards. However, I only have to assume the Eldar player, in my hypothetical situation, is fielding Guardian spam. Hence my point, You cannot generalise.
Imperial Guard? Is this your idea of what Imperial Guard should be (aka - nothing you don't like) or what they are? Again - I cannot say. I need lists.
Dark Eldar? List needed."
Basically, you have shown your prejudice and blatant disregard for diversity in this. You've not considered the possible make-up of the lists, the victory conditions, and various other factors.
The fact that Sgt. Smudge has met this posting of mine with silence speaks volumes.
Yes. It speaks volumes about the fact I am human and actually require sleep. Next time, consider that not everyone is the same as you?
The point in question - I have made my remarks in red.
pm713 wrote:By your own logic it is.
The Wraithknight is OP because it is undercosted meaning you effectively have something in terms of power you have not paid for. I believe you said it was undercosted by about 100 points?
Free transports give at least 350 points of power for free. You can't argue that one is OP and the other is not without shifting goalposts around.
I deny the bolded. Good for you. Doesn't mean you're right. The Wraithknight is (effectively) 100 points free-er. The Gladius is 350/550 points free-er. There is some definite double standards going on.
I've said this before, and I'll say it again. There is no such thing as "free" rhinos in the gladius strike force battle company. The "free" rhinos are factored into the total points cost of the units which form the battle company.
INCORRECT.
You buy the the units alone. Only by buying those units do I get the Rhinos. If your case were true, if I bought a Tactical Squad in any detachment, Gladius or no, I would get a free Dedicated Transport. This is not the case. When I pay those point for a Tactical Squad, I only get the five men that make up that starting Tactical Squad.
Say, I take a CAD. I then take a Captain, Chaplain, 6x Tactical Squads, 2x Assault Squads/Bikers, 2x Devastator Squads/Devastator Centurions, and say - three Sternguard Squads. I have taken exactly what the Gladius requires to make me eligible for those free transports, but where are they? My points are IDENTICAL to that of a Gladius, yet they get an extra 350/550 points points to go on transports.
Now tell me that the DT is factored into the Marine cost.
The purpose of the points system is to effect equality. True. However, the system is not correct. If the issue with Astartes durability lies in the Tactical Squad, the Tactical Squad needs a rebalancing - either a points nerf or power buff. However, giving free transports, unless it is innate, does not balance it.
Going to my previous example - two IDENTICAL armies, but one uses a CAD, instead of the Gladius. They are equal points, but one now gets an extra 10 tanks (assuming that both the Assault Squad and Devastators are eligable) - you have not fixed the durability of one of those Marine armies. Therefore, the Marines themselves are still not fixed.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Depends what they brought. All Vespids? All Crisis? You cannot generalise an army.
You totally can. "The public views Tau as un-fun and non-interactive, and thinks they are only played by stinky anime fans." See?
The OP will use more words to say this. I am just saving them time.
Unfortunately so.
I would be sorely tempted to start a Tau army early and prove him wrong, but I doubt I really count in his eyes.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Basically, you have shown your prejudice and blatant disregard for diversity in this.
That's our Traditio.
Not surprising at this point.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: You buy the the units alone. Only by buying those units do I get the Rhinos.
No, see, you don't understand. You're talking about the rules as written. OP is discussing the rules as they should be.
You're not going to get anywhere if you assume that OP is playing the same game as you are, or even has any desire to. That's basically what this poll amounts to: "Do you play 40k correctly? Y/N"
Hence my earlier point - is the hobby really for you, Traditio? I have seen more people disagree with Traditio than agree - I have no idea how he can still claim to be on the public's side.
We are putting forward valid points, ones that promote balance and equal opportunity, and you continue to move the goalposts to suit your argument, or simply disregard points with unquantifiable statistics.
The Wraithknight is a problem, and it's about 100-150 pts undercosted. It can, however, only be assaulting one place at a time and isn't obj sec.
When playing Eldar, I find the scatterbikes harder to play around than the Wraithknight. An equivalent point value of scatterbikes will kill Rhinos even faster than a WK.
Gladius is very powerful, probably too powerful. The big difference is that it isn't nearly as killy as the Eldar, even with a grav cannon in every squad (which adds up fast).
I've gotten very close to beating the Gladius with BA, but against Eldar there is zero hope with the BA codex.
Martel732 wrote: The Wraithknight is a problem, and it's about 100-150 pts undercosted. It can, however, only be assaulting one place at a time and isn't obj sec.
When playing Eldar, I find the scatterbikes harder to play around than the Wraithknight. An equivalent point value of scatterbikes will kill Rhinos even faster than a WK.
Gladius is very powerful, probably too powerful. The big difference is that it isn't nearly as killy as the Eldar, even with a grav cannon in every squad (which adds up fast).
This. Gladius is great in Maelstrom and ITC missions, but in straight up kill points, all those free Rhinos and Razorbacks are just extra VP's.
Battlesong wrote: I have Tyranids and CSM and I have no FW stuff, so about as non-cheesy as you can get.........
Tyranids have the MC cheese going for them: free AP2, no damage chart, fights at full strength till dead, can't be immobilized in rough terrain, but that's about it. They are better than if they have to use vehicles for synapse roles, but their MCs are unfortunately for them total gak compared to the godmode Riptide and Dreadknight.
Another issue, though, is that there is exactly ONE weapon system good at killing WKs in the whole marine codex. WKs should be way more vulnerable to lascannons and multimeltas than they are.
How many rhinos and 5 man tac squads can a wraithknight kill over the course of a game?
How many wraithknights can 4 - 5 man tac squads and their rhinos kill in the course of a game?
Ugh. As soon as someone starts on the "everything should be equally good at killing everything" you know they're either trolling or missing the point.
Equal points of grots are rubbish against landraider redeemers. Landraiders must be OP!
Because different strategies with different inherent weaknesses and strengths totally aren't a thing. If one thing is 100 points and another thing is 100 points they should be the same thing, dincha know?
I only wish to note that you've refused to answer the question as I've presented it. I have no further comments on the subject.
Please restate the question exactly as originally presented.
"I am going to ask you a simple question:
Suppose player A runs:
A captain A chaplain 6 tactical squads 2 devastator squads 2 assault marines without jump packs. 3 scout squads 10 rhinos
Assume that he is paying the full points costs for all of the above, and is not using grav weaponry.
How would he do against the point equivalence of tau?
Eldar?
Imperial Guard?
Dark Eldar?"
Assume:
1. Absolutely no changes to the army as I've presented it. 2. The most common "competitive" to "semi-competitive" lists for the armies I've proposed for comparison.
How about we assume the SM player isn't a fool? You need to be intellectually honest in your suppositions.
I've borrowed a friend's Gladius before. Even with assault cannon razorbacks, it was a shooting gallery for the Tau. I won, however, because there was a real limit on how much he could kill and I scored so many objectives. Ion Accelerators are REALLY inefficient vs cheap transports.
Traditio wrote: 1. Absolutely no changes to the army as I've presented it."
IOW: "assume that I'm not bringing a very good C:SM army and will not improve it, but my opponents are all bringing their standard competitive lists". What exactly do you think you are proving here?
Traditio wrote: 1. Absolutely no changes to the army as I've presented it."
IOW: "assume that I'm not bringing a very good C:SM army and will not improve it, but my opponents are all bringing their standard competitive lists". What exactly do you think you are proving here?
As I said, he turned them into BA and then wonders why they are bad.
Traditio wrote: 1. Absolutely no changes to the army as I've presented it."
IOW: "assume that I'm not bringing a very good C:SM army and will not improve it, but my opponents are all bringing their standard competitive lists". What exactly do you think you are proving here?
As I said, he turned them into BA and then wonders why they are bad.
I'd say that's actually worse than BA. He's proposing an army of basic marines while BA can take upgrades to make them slightly less bad.
It's not just 10 free Rhinos. It's everything being obj sec as well. And those Rhinos can be razorbacks, too.
Is the Gladius cheese? I'd say it's minor cheese. It's not going to table anyone by turn 3, but there are many scenarios where it just wins, and the opponent can do nothing about it. The best cheese tables, because tabling is a sure fire win, regardless of anything else.
A captain
A chaplain
6 tactical squads
2 devastator squads
2 assault marines without jump packs.
3 scout squads
10 rhinos
Assume that he is paying the full points costs for all of the above, and is not using grav weaponry.
How would he do against the point equivalence of tau?
Eldar?
Imperial Guard?
Dark Eldar?"
Assume:
1. Absolutely no changes to the army as I've presented it.
2. The most common "competitive" to "semi-competitive" lists for the armies I've proposed for comparison.
I don't recall you specifying the armies the first time around, aside from casually dismissing Chaos Space Marines because reasons.
Now, what kind of points are we playing here?
Why am I taking Scouts? They're not part of a Gladius. Why can't I take any auxiliary I wish?
Why am I taking Assault Marines instead of Bikes?
Why am I not allowed grav?
Just because you hamstring yourself being stubborn and pig-headed doesn't mean everyone will or has to. This question essentially amounts to "if someone takes my army, will they beat a phantom army from one of a couple of factions with no other data provided?"
Are the opponents allowed to use formations?
Can they use their most potent weapons?
Are they allowed heavy armour?
Are they allowed flyers?
Are they allowed monstrous/ gargantuan creatures?
If any of all of the above are "no" then why not?
You do realize that formations are give and take right? OF COURSE they are restrictive. They give a benefit at the cost of requiring you to take certain combinations. Would I typically take 6 Tactical Squads? No, usually 2 or 3 unless it was a high points game. Would I pay for a Rhino, Razorback or Drop Pod? Absolutely, in all my lists I do.
I understand what you're getting at: no one would use this list without the free buffs, so it couldn't be considered overpowered or broken. I find that patently false. It's not just the free transports that make it strong or win games. It's the special rules that come with them and apply to both them and every other unit in the force. In an objective-based game, allowing all 20 of your units to take and hold an objective is immensely powerful. It essentially acts as paper to the rock of the common Deathstar tournament list: by covering everything, they simply cannot use their significant but highly focused weight to punch through. Paper covers rock.
I play the army that gives me the best chance to win. Simple as. Complaining about cheese around me gets you as far as complaining about cheese in a real battle.
TrollSlayerThorak'Khun'Na wrote: I play the army that gives me the best chance to win. Simple as. Complaining about cheese around me gets you as far as complaining about cheese in a real battle.
TrollSlayerThorak'Khun'Na wrote: I play the army that gives me the best chance to win. Simple as. Complaining about cheese around me gets you as far as complaining about cheese in a real battle.
You should select "yes" for the poll option.
Playing with the best chance of winning doesn't necessarily imply they use cheesy units or imply they should answer "Yes" to your poll.
TrollSlayerThorak'Khun'Na wrote: I play the army that gives me the best chance to win. Simple as. Complaining about cheese around me gets you as far as complaining about cheese in a real battle.
You should select "yes" for the poll option.
How do you know whether he did or did not?
Regardless, once again cheese cannot be clearly defined. It is up to the two individual players and highly dependent on the circumstances.
Let me ask you a question:
If my opponent says to me "alright, you bring your nastiest most competitive list and I'll do the same." would it be cheesy for either of us to use a Superfriends Deathstar? Or the Eldar Aspect Shrine detachment? See? Against a similarly powerful list it isn't all that cheesy. In a pick up game against an opponent with a fun list it is what you would call cheese. I wouldn't blame the army or the Codex though. I'd blame the opponent for being a prick.
I don't own a cheesy army. I did own a slightly Edam-esque Space Marine force for a few months before 7th dropped. I'm now at the stage where I don't know where I fit in at all after table flipping and making the concious decision to try other game systems for a while
Wulfmar wrote: I don't own a cheesy army. I did own a slightly Edam-esque Space Marine force for a few months before 7th dropped. I'm now at the stage where I don't know where I fit in at all after table flipping and making the concious decision to try other game systems for a while
I'm not entirely sure what the bolded means. Would you go into greater detail?
A captain
A chaplain
6 tactical squads
2 devastator squads Or grav centurions, if they want a better chance at winning.
2 assault marines without jump packs. Not up to me to determine how this guy plays, but I don't think they make a wise move.
3 scout squads Why scouts?
10 rhinos Why not Razorbacks or Drop Pods? I should be able to choose what I want - if you're hypothetically giving this list to me.
Assume that he is paying the full points costs for all of the above, and is not using grav weaponry. Why not grav? They're missing out on a very effective tool - it would be akin to asking a Guard player not to run any Barrage weapons, Leman Russes or Infantry blobs... oh wait a minute...
How would he do against the point equivalence of tau? Depends what they brought. All Vespids? All Crisis? You cannot generalise an army.
Eldar? Due to the high standard of nearly all Eldar units, this is a little more like what your biased question is leading towards. However, I only have to assume the Eldar player, in my hypothetical situation, is fielding Guardian spam. Hence my point, You cannot generalise.
Imperial Guard? Is this your idea of what Imperial Guard should be (aka - nothing you don't like) or what they are? Again - I cannot say. I need lists.
Dark Eldar? List needed."
Basically, you have shown your prejudice and blatant disregard for diversity in this. You've not considered the possible make-up of the lists, the victory conditions, and various other factors.
The fact that Sgt. Smudge has met this posting of mine with silence speaks volumes. Yes. It speaks volumes about the fact I am human and actually require sleep. Next time, consider that not everyone is the same as you?
You've removed all options from list creation. Let me build the list as how I would play it, not how you want me to. I have the options, and I'll take them - if I had to pay for those Rhinos, I'd rather take Drop Pods, because I dislike the idea of a swarm of Rhinos, and would rather imagine my Battle Company descending into battle via a flight of Drop Pods.
If I were to use this same tact, imagine I gave you a list, comprising only of Vespid and Crisis suits with no guns. How fair would that be?
1. Absolutely no changes to the army as I've presented it."
Why should I assume that? You're asking someone to play a game against a (presumably) competitive opponent with a hand tied behind their back. How is this an accurate representation of Space Marine strength. Now, if your experiment was asking about the various special and heavy weapons marines can deploy and the inherent lack of internal balance with them, I would have no issue. However, you are measuring the effectiveness of the Battle Company alone, not it's weapons.
Traditio wrote:
Wulfmar wrote: I don't own a cheesy army. I did own a slightly Edam-esque Space Marine force for a few months before 7th dropped. I'm now at the stage where I don't know where I fit in at all after table flipping and making the concious decision to try other game systems for a while
I'm not entirely sure what the bolded means. Would you go into greater detail?
Wulfmar wrote: I don't own a cheesy army. I did own a slightly Edam-esque Space Marine force for a few months before 7th dropped. I'm now at the stage where I don't know where I fit in at all after table flipping and making the concious decision to try other game systems for a while
I'm not entirely sure what the bolded means. Would you go into greater detail?
Hehe sorry, European comment. Edam is a semi-hard Dutch cheese that's relatively popular (along with Gouda and Emmental).
So I meant I had a semi-hard cheesy army (moderately cheesy)
@Sgt_Smudge: there's no pointtrying to argue with the OP... Far as he's concerned, 10 free Obsec av11 boxes are entirely fair and balanced, but the second a fluffy Tzeentch Daemon army summons a single unit, the game is 'broken, broken, broken', and the Daemon player should be ashamed of themselves for playing such a filthy, gouda mess.
(and for added lols, those Horrors w/Tzherald are designed for assaults, which they're actually quite horrible at, but I can't help but find the occasional S6 flailing pool noodles hilarious!)
Martel732 wrote: It's not just 10 free Rhinos. It's everything being obj sec as well. And those Rhinos can be razorbacks, too.
Is the Gladius cheese? I'd say it's minor cheese. It's not going to table anyone by turn 3, but there are many scenarios where it just wins, and the opponent can do nothing about it. The best cheese tables, because tabling is a sure fire win, regardless of anything else.
It auto wins vs deathstars and thats a good thing. Deathstars are lame as hell.
Martel732 wrote: It's not just 10 free Rhinos. It's everything being obj sec as well. And those Rhinos can be razorbacks, too.
Is the Gladius cheese? I'd say it's minor cheese. It's not going to table anyone by turn 3, but there are many scenarios where it just wins, and the opponent can do nothing about it. The best cheese tables, because tabling is a sure fire win, regardless of anything else.
It auto wins vs deathstars and thats a good thing. Deathstars are lame as hell.
I generally agree with that. That's why I don't do much bitching about the Gladius.
My Iron Warriors is a Black Legion Chosenwing Spam followed by 2 Sicarians, 2 Vindys, and a Typhon( two force orgs ftw) at 1850. Or in ITC, I sub out the Typhon for a Fire Raptor and a Hell Blade.
Iur_tae_mont wrote: My Iron Warriors is a Black Legion Chosenwing Spam followed by 2 Sicarians, 2 Vindys, and a Typhon( two force orgs ftw) at 1850. Or in ITC, I sub out the Typhon for a Fire Raptor and a Hell Blade.
You tell me if It's cheddar.
Chaos without 5 demon princes? id say that's not very cheesy
Sgt_Smudge wrote:Why should I assume that? You're asking someone to play a game against a (presumably) competitive opponent with a hand tied behind their back.
That's exactly my point.
If we don't take psykers, grav or drop pods into account, running a battle company means playing with one hand tied behind your back. You need the free transports to even things out.
That's why it's not cheesy. There's nothing cheesy about a battle company without transports. In fact, you're playing at a handicap.
We can then tart talking about librarians, grav and drop pods, but that' not an issue with the battle company as such.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:Why should I assume that? You're asking someone to play a game against a (presumably) competitive opponent with a hand tied behind their back.
That's exactly my point.
If we don't take psykers, grav or drop pods into account, running a battle company means playing with one hand tied behind your back. You need the free transports to even things out.
That's why it's not cheesy. There's nothing cheesy about a battle company without transports. In fact, you're playing at a handicap.
We can then tart talking about librarians, grav and drop pods, but that' not an issue with the battle company as such.
Somehow I don't think you would be willing to extend that "logic" to the xenos, or even fellow imperials like guard. Guard get free chimera for every squad they have to take in a Cadian Battlegroup? Free Ork Trukks in a Green Tide? (All with obj sec even transports...). Say yes? Or make excuses? What will it be?
SolarCross wrote:Somehow I don't think you would be willing to extend that "logic" to the xenos, or even fellow imperials like guard. Guard get free chimera for every squad they have to take in a Cadian Battlegroup? Free Ork Trukks in a Green Tide? (All with obj sec even transports...). Say yes? Or make excuses? What will it be?
1. I've actually made the proposal that orks should get free trukks assuming a similar ork formation. Check my posting history in the proposed rules sub-forum.
No, but I'd say that many of my armies can be tricky to play against. For example my Eldar army is mostly wraith-units, so pretty durable, but low in quantity. Same with my Dark Angels army really, as most of the units I use are Deathwing, so again durable but low quantity.
I'd say that neither is cheesy as the low quantity of models is a major weakness and most people don't think terminators are up to much these days, so if I played in a more competitive environment high volumes of AP3 and AP2 would make short work of both armies. Since I play more casually though I can hit pretty hard, but every loss is significant, so I'd say it works out about even in the end most of the time.
So we're not discussing a GSF list done right, we're discussing yours?
Again, humor me.
Please.
Accuse my list of being cheese.
And do try to keep a straight face.
Why would I humour you? What you choose to run has no bearing on this thread other than your own personal choice as to answer yes or no.
Your own definition of "cheese" in this thread, as limited and fluid as it has been, refers to those lists most commonly complained about, and I'm pretty sure people aren't complaining about those list archetypes when they run suboptimal unit/gear choices or omit the strongest options.
It's effectively a mirror of an argument where someone takes a top tier 'cheese' list and then plays it in an entirely inappropriate way (tries to assault with a Tau gunline or drives all his tanks right at the most heavily melta equipped units in his opponents army.)
Using a 'cheese' archetype but making dumb list selections or playing like a moron doesn't invalidate the argument that the archetype itself remains 'cheesy' when played competently with optimal unit choices.
So we're not discussing a GSF list done right, we're discussing yours?
Again, humor me.
Please.
Accuse my list of being cheese.
And do try to keep a straight face.
Against certain armies, especially without any warning, yes even a bad Gladius is cheesy, simply because the likes of Orks, Tyranids, Daemons & CSM's lack the ability to deal with 20+ Obsec units...
Orks, and especially Tyranids & Daemons have extremely limited amounts of ranged anti-tank, and the majority of it is typically BS3 or worse, and/or (in the case of Daemons especially) are limited to psychic shooting.
CSM's meanwhile are simply too badly over costed, and are only outdone by Guard as the game's slowest army.
If you're playing any kind of mission based game, then taking a GSF against certain armies is pretty much an auto-win.
In a competitive setting, where everyone is fully aware of 'cheese is likely to highly probable', then GSF is fair game. If you're just playing a pick-up game? It's pretty dirty to spring a GSF against the books that simply can't deal with 20+ Obsec units.
Main army is Chaos Marines. Secondary is Knights + Inquisition (with which I usually place middle of the tournament rankings). Other lesser played lists, Renegades and Heritics, generic space marines, and Hellforged Hunting pack. With a coin flip win rate.
I play 4 different with a varying degree of frequency. Slaanesh Daemons, Dark Angels (demi-company mostly with the occasional Ravenwing), Imperial Guard (infantry heavy, occasionally all tanks), and Sisters of Battle. Since I typially play 1000 to 1500 with teams, my armies are nothing impressive. Only my Dark Angels perform well out of the four on a regualr basis. My Sisters can do OK but I typically face armies that replenish their troops quickly like Khorne Daemonkin. My guard are just awful most of the time as my infantry can't hit the broadside of a barn when it matters and take horrific casualties in return. When I use my tanks, the first couple fo turns will be awesome and then my luck will turn as Multiple tanks wreck or explode spectacularly. I'm still discovering my daemons strengths and weaknesses in 7th so the jury is out, but my Dark Angels have what they need. I just need to step away from plasma weapons and adopt the Grav weapon. Plasma is great until the turn you lose 4 or 5 guys to your own weapons. (Plasma cannons have a habit of scattering in the worst way possible)
wuestenfux wrote: My Eldar and Necron armies are considered to be cheesy here.
They probably are. But not for the purposes of my poll.
Again, I have in mind the combinations that people are constantly complaining about (e.g., webway portal + wraithguard or grav centurions + libby conclave).
Well, last week I played with my Necrons (5000 pts) against Tau (3 Riptides, Stormsurge) and GK/Robots (each 2500 pts).
It was a very tough battle but my Decurion withstood the enemy. At the end it was a draw (maestrom mission). I guess a vanilla Marine army would have been dead after round two. This is the kind of battles I absolutely like. Every dice roll thrilling. Going for the enemy's throat. Call it cheesy if you like.
