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Post by: Walnuts
Does anyone know when this thing drops? Forgeworld's site seems to imply (without specifically stating) July 31st.
Really looking forward to seeing what that jetbike skyhunter squad does, and the rumored assault marine drop in points 
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Post by: Azreal13
Availability:
Pre-order product that will ship from 15-Jul-2016
Seems pretty definite?
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Post by: Walnuts
ah! thanks! missed that somehow
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Post by: Kharne the Befriender
It's already sold out... no surprise their
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Post by: Walnuts
Just the limited ed one is sold out, you can still pre-order the plain red legion astartes book.
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Post by: Kharne the Befriender
 Walnuts wrote:Just the limited ed one is sold out, you can still pre-order the plain red legion astartes book.
Oh, I over looked that. Thanks man
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Post by: Zuul
Walnuts wrote:Just the limited ed one is sold out, you can still pre-order the plain red legion astartes book.
Boo! Red sucks!
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Post by: Walnuts
 Zuul wrote: Walnuts wrote:Just the limited ed one is sold out, you can still pre-order the plain red legion astartes book.
Boo! Red sucks!
I kinda like it 
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Post by: Dr. Bizarre
Jetbike skyhunters are just the normal jetbikes, but they can all tske heavy weapons, rather than one in every three
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Post by: meatwagon
So new player here (so new my books will not be at my house until Monday). I just ordered Age of Darkness Legions and Crusade imperialis army lists. Question does this new book replace the Crusade imperialis book ?
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Post by: Brennonjw
meatwagon wrote:So new player here (so new my books will not be at my house until Monday). I just ordered Age of Darkness Legions and Crusade imperialis army lists. Question does this new book replace the Crusade imperialis book ?
so, there's 4 different kinds of red books now:
Mechanicum (up to date)
Legion Astartes: Age of Darkness Legions (Legion specific stuff, up to date)
Crusade Imperialis: Army Lists (Solar Auxilia, Knights, Imperial militia, up to date, NO space marine stuff inside)
Legion Astartes: Age of Darkness Army List (Just updated to, so now it's up to date)
You should be good, so long as you are aware that the second book you bought had nothing to do with space marine legions  (assuming you didn't accidentally mix up the book names)
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Post by: meatwagon
Thank you for the reply,. Double checked and did not mix up the names. Sounds like I should be good, I am starting an Iron Hands army so all I really need for them is Age of Darkness. Also picked up Book 2 Massacre for the fluff. Thanks again.
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Post by: Walnuts
Dr. Bizarre wrote:Jetbike skyhunters are just the normal jetbikes, but they can all tske heavy weapons, rather than one in every three
There's gotta be more to it than that, otherwise what the hell would be the point of normal jetbikes?
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Post by: Tannhauser42
Walnuts wrote:Dr. Bizarre wrote:Jetbike skyhunters are just the normal jetbikes, but they can all tske heavy weapons, rather than one in every three
There's gotta be more to it than that, otherwise what the hell would be the point of normal jetbikes?
We still don't know for certain exactly what the new jetbike unit will be like, but the common theory is certainly heavy weapon upgrades for all, and a good chance at a special rule. But the normal jetbike unit will still be a Fast Attack choice (rather than Heavy Support) and will also be cheaper.
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Post by: Brennonjw
Walnuts wrote:Dr. Bizarre wrote:Jetbike skyhunters are just the normal jetbikes, but they can all tske heavy weapons, rather than one in every three
There's gotta be more to it than that, otherwise what the hell would be the point of normal jetbikes?
Not really? Fluff and point cost both will play into it massivley. Additionally, this is basically what the quad mortar support battery is.
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Post by: KorPhaeron77
I thought Sky Hunter Jetbikes were what Jetbike Squadrons have been since HH1 Betrayal? There isn't a "regular Jetbike" just Sky Hunter Jetbikes. Sky hunters have always been able to field heavy weapons on each jetbike, in fact they are only capable of taking heavy weapons options.
Also, don't the red books generally just feature units that were in previous HH books just tweaked for points? I wasn't aware they were releasing rules for new units.
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Post by: Dr. Bizarre
I probably should have phrased it 'they can all upgrade tgeir heavy bolters, rather than one in every three'. It also collects the rules for the leviathan and the new consuls. And the missions from the black books
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Post by: KorPhaeron77
Dr. Bizarre wrote:I probably should have phrased it 'they can all upgrade tgeir heavy bolters, rather than one in every three'. It also collects the rules for the leviathan and the new consuls. And the missions from the black books
Ah okay, but are they a separate unit? Sky Hunter Squadrons can only have one in three upgraded weapons. Or are they just going to change the rules to allow more weapon upgrades?
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Post by: Dr. Bizarre
No, I think the OP has called them skyhunters, but they are the regular jetbikes. There is a new HS jetbike squadron too, but I forget their name. Good for White Scar and Ravenwing protocol players
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Post by: KorPhaeron77
Dr. Bizarre wrote:No, I think the OP has called them skyhunters, but they are the regular jetbikes. There is a new HS jetbike squadron too, but I forget their name. Good for White Scar and Ravenwing protocol players
Have those been in an existing book? I can't remember seeing an alternate Jetbike squad. Or is this just something that we've been told to expect in the new Red book?
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Post by: Dr. Bizarre
It was in the contents list which was leaked and doing the rounds a few weeks ago
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Post by: KorPhaeron77
Dr. Bizarre wrote:It was in the contents list which was leaked and doing the rounds a few weeks ago
Gotcha, thanks mate.
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Post by: Dr. Bizarre
No worries
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Post by: Walnuts
 Brennonjw wrote: Walnuts wrote:Dr. Bizarre wrote:Jetbike skyhunters are just the normal jetbikes, but they can all tske heavy weapons, rather than one in every three
There's gotta be more to it than that, otherwise what the hell would be the point of normal jetbikes?
Not really? Fluff and point cost both will play into it massivley. Additionally, this is basically what the quad mortar support battery is.
Yes really. Even comparing tactical marines to devastators (in 40k). Devastators aren't just 'tacticals with more heavies and in a different slot'. They also lose special weapon options (and on occasion, obsec) and their serg has some unique wargear.
They wouldn't just literally copy paste the entire unit entry, but go 'uh, well this one can take the exact same heavies but on every model and has a really fancy name, derp.' That's lazy even by GW standards, let alone forgeworld.
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Post by: gorgon
Walnuts wrote:Dr. Bizarre wrote:Jetbike skyhunters are just the normal jetbikes, but they can all tske heavy weapons, rather than one in every three
There's gotta be more to it than that, otherwise what the hell would be the point of normal jetbikes?
They aren't in the ridiculously overcrowded HS section, for starters. Heavy weapon jetbikes would be nice, but I can think of much better ways to spend a HS slot.
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Post by: KharnsRightHand
Are HS Jetbikes the only thing in the new Red Book that isn't in Book 6?
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
Possibly the only completely new thing. So far I've seen a complete list of available Lords of War, and the Malcador is in heavy support. Knights are also available as Lords of War .
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Post by: gorgon
There will be tweaks to existing units and rules, however. We can see some changes in the preview pages, and assault squads are definitely getting a points drop per the designers. I expect to see many more changes.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
 gorgon wrote:... and assault squads are definitely getting a points drop per the designers..
YAAAAAAAAAS! 185pt would be just perfect.
Destroyer Squads need to get bumped to 10 man squads and maybe they can be 200pt? Maybe 250 with cheaper packs?
And the Cerb with 3 shots and no Feedback.
4 more days until the release and I am going nuts waiting to see the changes.
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Post by: jasper76
Just put in my pre-order. Can't wait. I have been using my friends HH1 tome and I'm sick of lugging it around.
Hoping for fixes to Assault Squads and Destroyer squads, like everyone else. I've got full units of both, but alas for their points cost.
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Post by: taemu_touhi
Saw this post on the News and Rumours forum, and been trying to find it in the Warhammer 30k forums. But with no luck. So I thought I will just put here.
Thamor wrote:Some red book changes thanks to Garro over on the Heresy forums
so I've spent the last hour or so cross referencing the new army list with the old one and have these to share with you all.
unit prices referenced are either increases or decreases compared to their original price, rather than their actual price.
Age of darkness rules changes
the ‘imperial armour units in age of darkness games’ rule has been replaced. Instead of ‘any unit’ it is now a fixed list of units.
Clarification of having multiple characters with the ‘must be warlord’ rule. Simply put, you can’t. Only primarchs override this.
Tank squadrons have command tank upgrade which is +10pts over old price
tankes with pintile-mounted options have multi-meltas added for same price as havoc launcher
HQ choices
moritat chain fire rules updated to include the overheat rules from the jan 2016 FAQ
legion command squad base cost is -25pts
additional LCS members are -5pts
Elites choices
veteran tactical squads -25ps to base cost
veteran marines are -3pts each
VTS has additional weapons from FAQ added
techmarines are -10pts each base
servo-automata has heavy bolter, multi-melta, and missile launcher added to their wargear options
apothecarion detachment has list of units removed, may join any unit will ‘legiones astartes’ rule that isn’t in terminator armour or have the daemon rule.
Apothecarion detahment can purhcase jump packs and SM bikes, allowing them to join like equipped units.
Dreadnoughts all have +1 attack (to base 3) as per FAQ
Volkite culverins in contemtpor dreads replaced with the twin-linked version
legion rapier squads thudd guns only have frag rounds to start with. May purchase additional rounds as in book 6, including phosphex
troops choices
legion tacticals squads are -25pts base
legion assault squads are -75pts base
additional assault marines are -2pts each
breacher squad -25pts base
additional breacher marines are +5pts each
tactical support squad can take additonal close combat weapon for 2pts
rotor cannon and volkite charger upgrades are now free upgrades
reconnaissance squad is -25pts base
dedicated transports
legion dreadnought drop pods are +35pts
fast attacks
legion seekers are -20pts base
additional marines are +5pts
sunfury missiles on lightning is +10pts
kraken missiles are +10pts
phosphex bomb cluster -10pts
electromagnetic bomb charges are -10pts
tarantula’s are +5pts each
tarantula squads lose forward deployment
dreadclaw drop pods +15pts
dreadclaw listed as only carrying regular and contemptor dreads, not leviathan or dreadeo types
land speeders are -10pts each
hunter killer missiles are -5pts each now
javelins are -20pts each
javelins gain strafing run USR
units attacking a javelin in combat suffer a -2 to hit while it isn’t immobilsed
heavy support units
new jetbike unit
just regular jetbikers with multi-melta as basic, base squad is +30pts over normal jetbike squad
may only go to 5 men in total, additional men are +15pts over normal jetbikers
may upgrade to volkite or plasma for cost, all of the squad must be the same
may take sergeant upgrade
deathstorm drop pod has automated weapons rule, basically old rule of automatically shooting all units within range (enemy or friend) when it arrives.
LR phobos is -25pts
proteus is -20pts
land raider achillies can take thudd gun ammos same as rapiers, at same price
achillies-alpha can take additonal ammo types
vindicators are now squadrons as in book 6. with additional rules from FAQ
spartan is +10pts
laser destoryers are free upgrades on spartan
flare shield is +20pts over old price
sicaran venator may take second pintle-mounted weapon (full list)
sicaran is +30pts and can take a pintle mounted weapon
Kharybdis is -25pts
deredeo dreadnought has third arm option, heavy lascannon option str10, ap2 heavy 2, exoshock
exoshock means if a hit scores a penetrating hit, then on a 4+ a second automatic pen is caused ignoring cover
whirlwind scopius can take pintle-mounted weapons
malcador is now heavy support with -25pts base cost
battlespeed now allows it to fire its main weapon (top turret) at full BS skill before or after moving flat out.
Malcador is 1-3 in squadrons
malcador receives wider wargear selection covering basic stuff like pintle-mounted weapons
lords of war
typhon is +45pts base
falchion is +25pts
flachion can take a neutron wave capacitor which adds the ‘feed back’ and ‘shock pulse’ special rules to it’s volcano cannon.
Rites of war
orbitial assault: dreadnought and contemptor talons can take dreadclaws or dreadnought droppods even in talons of 2 or 3. rapier batteries can take drop pods.
will update with any addition finds.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/4680/660641.page
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
HUGE shift in the game. Looks like they didn't fix the Cerberus or Destroyers, but Assault Marines just because entirely viable. Javelins too. Spartans might be a bit less obvious now, with the price hikes. Love the new Jetbike squad - it was so obvious! Seems solid. If only the bikes weren't so... phallic.
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Post by: KharnsRightHand
Assault marine price drop and the Spartan increases kinda balance out, don't think my lists will change a whole lot. I'm getting a Kharybdis regardless, but now I just might use it more frequently than before in place of the Spartan. Javelins I was already planning on getting, so this is a nice bonus. Not to mention +1S chainaxes....S6 Inductii, yes please!
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Post by: zedmeister
I can see a ton of fun for the World Eater Murderbus (aka Mastodon) - fill it with Chain Axe nutters and barrel it to the centre of the enemy lines. Flank it with Spartans filled with Red Butcher madmen and, well, party time!
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
 zedmeister wrote:I can see a ton of fun for the World Eater Murderbus (aka Mastodon) - fill it with Chain Axe nutters and barrel it to the centre of the enemy lines. Flank it with Spartans filled with Red Butcher madmen and, well, party time!
If it was 500pt. Sure. Even 600pt.
700pt? Too expensive.
And yea, KRH - S5 base and S6 for Inductii have me all hot and bothered! Glad I own 30+ chainaxes!
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Post by: zedmeister
Yes, not cheap, but lots of fun. Doubly so as your opponent sweats it out trying to defeat the thing as it grinds inexorably towards his lines!
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
zedmeister wrote:
Yes, not cheap, but lots of fun. Doubly so as your opponent sweats it out trying to defeat the thing as it grinds inexorably towards his lines!
If it only had a Flare Shield. I prefer my eggs in two Spartans over this beast, but the Mastodon is definitely a gorgeous kit.
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Post by: gorgon
 KharnsRightHand wrote:Assault marine price drop and the Spartan increases kinda balance out, don't think my lists will change a whole lot. I'm getting a Kharybdis regardless, but now I just might use it more frequently than before in place of the Spartan. Javelins I was already planning on getting, so this is a nice bonus. Not to mention +1S chainaxes....S6 Inductii, yes please!
And don't forget about the tacticals points drop. It's a double buff for WE.
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Post by: Casti
Is any knight able to be taken as a lord of war for a legion list or is there a specific list to choose from?
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Post by: Tamwulf
Casti wrote:Is any knight able to be taken as a lord of war for a legion list or is there a specific list to choose from?
Last I checked, they are their own formation. You can take them as a separate detachment in a Legion list. Funny enough, you can take a Warhound Titan as a LoW choice in a Legion list...
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Casti wrote:Is any knight able to be taken as a lord of war for a legion list or is there a specific list to choose from?
"War Machine Detachment: 1-2 Super-heavy vehicles of the same unit type, each with a Hull Points value of 8 or less, and each chosen either from the specific army list for the Primary Detachment, the Questoris Knights army list found in the Crusade Imperialis army list..."
So basically any Knight, generally speaking. Which is pretty awesome!
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Post by: jeffersonian000
So, I'm looking through the new ebook, and something stood out - Dreadnoughts are referred to as "Ancients". While I've read this a number of times without pause, today it hit my brain funny. Why is it that some Astarte less than 300 years own is an "Ancient" when entombed in a Dreadnaught, while the 300 year old Astartes in power armour standing next to him is not?
Am I the only one finding that odd?
SJ
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Post by: pm713
 jeffersonian000 wrote:So, I'm looking through the new ebook, and something stood out - Dreadnoughts are referred to as "Ancients". While I've read this a number of times without pause, today it hit my brain funny. Why is it that some Astarte less than 300 years own is an "Ancient" when entombed in a Dreadnaught, while the 300 year old Astartes in power armour standing next to him is not?
Am I the only one finding that odd?
SJ
Generally the Dreadnoughts are a lot older and will be from times nobody else remembers. So Ancient is a decent generic title. Like how a brand new veteran is still a Veteran despite being new to the company.
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Post by: Freytag93
If these changes are right, that is a huge shift to most people's lists. I see at least a 200 point difference in my lists due to changes to tacicals, spartans, recon, and LRs. Lots more points for fun toys.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
jeffersonian000 wrote:So, I'm looking through the new ebook, and something stood out - Dreadnoughts are referred to as "Ancients". While I've read this a number of times without pause, today it hit my brain funny. Why is it that some Astarte less than 300 years own is an "Ancient" when entombed in a Dreadnaught, while the 300 year old Astartes in power armour standing next to him is not?
Am I the only one finding that odd?
SJ
I don't see like... any references to Ancients in my copy. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Freytag93 wrote:If these changes are right, that is a huge shift to most people's lists. I see at least a 200 point difference in my lists due to changes to tacicals, spartans, recon, and LRs. Lots more points for fun toys.
Except that Spartans went up in points generally.  No doubt FW wants to see more than double-Spartan lists.
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Post by: Brillow80
Question
The new HS jetbike unit has Multi-melta standard and upgrades to volkite or plas for cost.
Is this cost adjusted? We're already paying more for each model and I assume this is in part due to the inbuilt multi-melta.
This would make volkite free and plasma +5 points.
If we still have to pay +10 and +15 respectively, I would consider it overpriced.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
 Brillow80 wrote:Question
The new HS jetbike unit has Multi-melta standard and upgrades to volkite or plas for cost.
Is this cost adjusted? We're already paying more for each model and I assume this is in part due to the inbuilt multi-melta.
This would make volkite free and plasma +5 points.
If we still have to pay +10 and +15 respectively, I would consider it overpriced.
I don't see that logic. You are paying a premium for being able to take a whole unit of the special weapons. That won't wind up and apples-to-apples comparison for the Sky Hunter vs Sky Slayer squads.
I think 165pt for three 2+ T5 Multimelta guys is pretty solid. Not sure I would ever upgrade them to anything anyhow - except maybe to attach a Primus Med for the FNP against Plasma.
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Post by: Brillow80
 em_en_oh_pee wrote: Brillow80 wrote:Question
The new HS jetbike unit has Multi-melta standard and upgrades to volkite or plas for cost.
Is this cost adjusted? We're already paying more for each model and I assume this is in part due to the inbuilt multi-melta.
This would make volkite free and plasma +5 points.
If we still have to pay +10 and +15 respectively, I would consider it overpriced.
I don't see that logic. You are paying a premium for being able to take a whole unit of the special weapons. That won't wind up and apples-to-apples comparison for the Sky Hunter vs Sky Slayer squads.
I think 165pt for three 2+ T5 Multimelta guys is pretty solid. Not sure I would ever upgrade them to anything anyhow - except maybe to attach a Primus Med for the FNP against Plasma.
Oh don't get me wrong, I really like the unit. I'm just trying to understand the balance in points cost vs volume of fire that could come from a similarly equipped heavy support squadron.
Half the firepower for increased mobility at roughly the same cost (315 bike vs 335 heavy support unit) Seems logical.
If it weren't for the grenade nerf in the core rule book FAQ I would give them all melta bombs with culverines and make them dedicatedted Spartan killer unit.
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Post by: Col. Dash
Wow, my Night Lords drop pod army might have just gotten enough points for another squad and pods or an assault squad.
A shame about the Spartan, that was a hella price increase.
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Post by: Brillow80
Col. Dash wrote:Wow, my Night Lords drop pod army might have just gotten enough points for another squad and pods or an assault squad.
A shame about the Spartan, that was a hella price increase.
Before I became an EC fan I was kicking around the idea of a NL army but I wanted jump pack assault units as troops and the points just didn't work. Very happy to see this change.
As for the Spartan it was a bit too beastly however I would think most of the cost decreases in the rest of the army would wash.
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Post by: Brennonjw
I don't think we got a huge shift as much as a lot of the assault legions just got more viable.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
Huh. Not a big shift for my Ultras since the Spartan price increases are off set by the Tac price discount. And the other Land Raider variants are looking a bit more attractive.
Surprised to see Forge World breaking away with GW's seemingly hard line stance that the basic Land Raider must always and forever be 250 points.
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Post by: Ashiraya
The more expensive Sicaran is unfortunate. Perhaps a second Contemptor Mortis would be preferable.
The cheaper Tactical and Assault squads is very, very good for me, though.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
 TheCustomLime wrote:Huh. Not a big shift for my Ultras since the Spartan price increases are off set by the Tac price discount. And the other Land Raider variants are looking a bit more attractive.
Surprised to see Forge World breaking away with GW's seemingly hard line stance that the basic Land Raider must always and forever be 250 points.
Yea, I am starting to think I might go Spartan/Phobos over Spartan/Spartan for delivering my assault units. The Phobos will die faster, but saving ~125pt might be worth it.
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Post by: zedmeister
Just realised drop podded leviathans have been clobbered!
"Once the Drop Pod lands, its doors are opened automatically, but the Dreadnought inside does not have to deploy out unless the controlling player wishes, and if this is the case, though it may still be targeted by shooting attacks, it may not be charged while this rule is in effect."
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Post by: Brillow80
zedmeister wrote:Just realised drop podded leviathans have been clobbered!
"Once the Drop Pod lands, its doors are opened automatically, but the Dreadnought inside does not have to deploy out unless the controlling player wishes, and if this is the case, though it may still be targeted by shooting attacks, it may not be charged while this rule is in effect."
Apothecary units got nerfed too, no more tag along in cata termie command squads.
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Post by: gorgon
Brillow80 wrote: zedmeister wrote:Just realised drop podded leviathans have been clobbered!
"Once the Drop Pod lands, its doors are opened automatically, but the Dreadnought inside does not have to deploy out unless the controlling player wishes, and if this is the case, though it may still be targeted by shooting attacks, it may not be charged while this rule is in effect."
Apothecary units got nerfed too, no more tag along in cata termie command squads.
I'd say bike and jump pack options, along with the lifting of most other restrictions for joining, make it a very big net win for Apothecaries.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Brillow80 wrote: zedmeister wrote:Just realised drop podded leviathans have been clobbered!
"Once the Drop Pod lands, its doors are opened automatically, but the Dreadnought inside does not have to deploy out unless the controlling player wishes, and if this is the case, though it may still be targeted by shooting attacks, it may not be charged while this rule is in effect."
Apothecary units got nerfed too, no more tag along in cata termie command squads.
They most definitely did not get nerfed - now they can go with so many units its staggering, including Marauder squads!
And it was a stretch letting them be in Termie Cmd Squads. That is some heavy RAW nonsense. This is 30k, we are better than that!
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Post by: Brillow80
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Brillow80 wrote: zedmeister wrote:Just realised drop podded leviathans have been clobbered!
"Once the Drop Pod lands, its doors are opened automatically, but the Dreadnought inside does not have to deploy out unless the controlling player wishes, and if this is the case, though it may still be targeted by shooting attacks, it may not be charged while this rule is in effect."
Apothecary units got nerfed too, no more tag along in cata termie command squads.
They most definitely did not get nerfed - now they can go with so many units its staggering, including Marauder squads!
And it was a stretch letting them be in Termie Cmd Squads. That is some heavy RAW nonsense. This is 30k, we are better than that!
They were a must take before, even more so now and gets rid of the shenanigans. It's a good change.
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Post by: Eldarain
My 20 Assault Marines I am building around are very grateful. Did the 1 Melta Bomb per squad in assault FaQ go through for 30k?
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
 Eldarain wrote:My 20 Assault Marines I am building around are very grateful. Did the 1 Melta Bomb per squad in assault FaQ go through for 30k?
If it updates the core rulebook, it applies to 30k, which uses the core rulebook for its rules.
Just take a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer and call it a day!
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Post by: Tannhauser42
em_en_oh_pee wrote:Casti wrote:Is any knight able to be taken as a lord of war for a legion list or is there a specific list to choose from?
"War Machine Detachment: 1-2 Super-heavy vehicles of the same unit type, each with a Hull Points value of 8 or less, and each chosen either from the specific army list for the Primary Detachment, the Questoris Knights army list found in the Crusade Imperialis army list..."
So basically any Knight, generally speaking. Which is pretty awesome!
Is that the wording from the current book, or the new one dropping next week? We've seen the page that lists the specific LoW choices allowed from other Imperial Armour books.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
 Tannhauser42 wrote: em_en_oh_pee wrote:Casti wrote:Is any knight able to be taken as a lord of war for a legion list or is there a specific list to choose from?
"War Machine Detachment: 1-2 Super-heavy vehicles of the same unit type, each with a Hull Points value of 8 or less, and each chosen either from the specific army list for the Primary Detachment, the Questoris Knights army list found in the Crusade Imperialis army list..."
So basically any Knight, generally speaking. Which is pretty awesome!
Is that the wording from the current book, or the new one dropping next week? We've seen the page that lists the specific LoW choices allowed from other Imperial Armour books.
The new book dropped and that is from it. 
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Post by: pm713
Eldarain wrote:My 20 Assault Marines I am building around are very grateful. Did the 1 Melta Bomb per squad in assault FaQ go through for 30k?
It's not even gone through for 40k...
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Post by: Formosa
pm713 wrote: Eldarain wrote:My 20 Assault Marines I am building around are very grateful. Did the 1 Melta Bomb per squad in assault FaQ go through for 30k?
It's not even gone through for 40k...
I can see an FAQ dismissing this ruling from FW anyway, like the sniper rule for vets
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Post by: King Amroth
There isnt yet an official FAQ for 40k 7th its a draft subject to changes, however if it becomes the official released FAQ or 8th drops with it then you can worry and hope for a FW FAQ, until then a powerfist is always useful for stuff but meltabombs are killer.
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Post by: Casti
For the pride of the legion rite of war, apparently you need to have more or equal amount of units with the legiones astartes than those without. Is somone able to confirm this and do dedicated transport count towards that number?
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
 King Amroth wrote:There isnt yet an official FAQ for 40k 7th its a draft subject to changes, however if it becomes the official released FAQ or 8th drops with it then you can worry and hope for a FW FAQ, until then a powerfist is always useful for stuff but meltabombs are killer.
Draft doesn't mean subject to changes in rulings, just format and clarity of ruling. These will be official, so best embrace them now and be ready.
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Post by: Brillow80
em_en_oh_pee wrote: King Amroth wrote:There isnt yet an official FAQ for 40k 7th its a draft subject to changes, however if it becomes the official released FAQ or 8th drops with it then you can worry and hope for a FW FAQ, until then a powerfist is always useful for stuff but meltabombs are killer.
Draft doesn't mean subject to changes in rulings, just format and clarity of ruling. These will be official, so best embrace them now and be ready.
This.
I find that people who like the changes will push for them to be applied to their games now. Those that may not benefit would want just the opposite.
Best to discuss this with your opponent before the game.
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Post by: King Amroth
em_en_oh_pee wrote: King Amroth wrote:There isnt yet an official FAQ for 40k 7th its a draft subject to changes, however if it becomes the official released FAQ or 8th drops with it then you can worry and hope for a FW FAQ, until then a powerfist is always useful for stuff but meltabombs are killer.
Draft doesn't mean subject to changes in rulings, just format and clarity of ruling. These will be official, so best embrace them now and be ready.
That is exactly what draft means, at this time they are clearing up rule misconceptions etc however the documents they have released are not official yet and are subject to change by their own word, if you wish to use them then you must get permission from your opponent and remember that when released officially it may not say the same thing as it does now.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Except that the rulings will be the same. They made that clear. It is only about clarity and wording, not the ruling. So we all might as well embrace it, because that is what we are getting. Not sure why people keep resisting.
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Post by: pm713
em_en_oh_pee wrote:Except that the rulings will be the same. They made that clear. It is only about clarity and wording, not the ruling. So we all might as well embrace it, because that is what we are getting. Not sure why people keep resisting.
Because some of the rulings are terrible.
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Post by: Tannhauser42
pm713 wrote: em_en_oh_pee wrote:Except that the rulings will be the same. They made that clear. It is only about clarity and wording, not the ruling. So we all might as well embrace it, because that is what we are getting. Not sure why people keep resisting.
Because some of the rulings are terrible.
And, at least one has also been changed already due to feedback.
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Post by: pm713
Tannhauser42 wrote:pm713 wrote: em_en_oh_pee wrote:Except that the rulings will be the same. They made that clear. It is only about clarity and wording, not the ruling. So we all might as well embrace it, because that is what we are getting. Not sure why people keep resisting.
Because some of the rulings are terrible.
And, at least one has also been changed already due to feedback.
What was changed?
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Post by: Ashiraya
They made the Dreadnought attack bonus an official errata rather than a suggested 'if both players agree' designer's note thing.
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Post by: King Amroth
The fact that the overwhelmingly positive response to the dreadnought ruling made them declare it an official update now shows that they are taking into account what people say. One of the next ones im expecting is the increasing scouts to ws4 bs4 to become official.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rulings like that are the more likely to be confirmed faster as they are more about bringing older armies more in line with the current state of game.
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Post by: saitani
another small change i noticed was that the extra armour on storm eagles are now 5p Points instead of 10
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Post by: Walnuts
saitani wrote:another small change i noticed was that the extra armour on storm eagles are now 5p Points instead of 10
totally worth it now!!
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Post by: Walnuts
Any word on destroyers? Anyone?
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
No change. Sadly. But with so much dropping in price, them being a bit expensive isn't as much a burden. I mean, just seeing that new Moritat model from FW Open makes me want them more than ever.
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Post by: Swampmist
actually, one change for destroyers is that Rad Missles are fleshbane now, where iirc hey where poison 3+ before
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Post by: Matt.Kingsley
Nah they were Fleshbane in the previous Red Book.
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Post by: Swampmist
Ah, just me missremembering then. Could servitors always take them?
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Post by: Matt.Kingsley
Nope, that's new (as is Servitors being able to take Missile Launchers at all).
God I can't wait for my book to arrive... looking forward to being able to see all these changes in person to be able to update my list.
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Post by: Walnuts
em_en_oh_pee wrote:
No change. Sadly. But with so much dropping in price, them being a bit expensive isn't as much a burden. I mean, just seeing that new Moritat model from FW Open makes me want them more than ever.
Well yeah, but with the assault marine price drop, now you're REALLY paying a premium for your destroyers. I don't know, unless the meta shifts more in the direction of blob troops, and thus resulting in me needing a way to really cut down MEQs, I'll be surprised if I bother with destroyers. And I like my moritat!
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Post by: Swampmist
You would never take them without MLs right now, for sure, but fleshbane AP3 is pretty good man, especially against mechanicum robits who force rerolls on poison (do they also do so to fleshbane? I don't think so, but the robit rules still confuse me tbh)
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Post by: Walnuts
Oooh yeah, good question. Those missiles could do some real damage against the mechanicum.
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Post by: Swampmist
and now you can also take Servitors with them (assuming your techmarine takes rad grenades.) So the ability to have a Rad Gunline is truly real.
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Post by: Matt.Kingsley
And then give the techmarine a Cortex Controller so you can have your own Ad Mech stompies.
Poor Destroyers... getting outclassed by a bunch of mindless, lobotomised slaves.
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Post by: locarno24
do they also do so to fleshbane? I don't think so, but the robit rules still confuse me tbh
They do. But a 2+ with a compulsory reroll is stlll bloody good when firing on a T7 target....
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Post by: KharnsRightHand
zedmeister wrote:Just realised drop podded leviathans have been clobbered!
"Once the Drop Pod lands, its doors are opened automatically, but the Dreadnought inside does not have to deploy out unless the controlling player wishes, and if this is the case, though it may still be targeted by shooting attacks, it may not be charged while this rule is in effect."
And with a points increase on the pod, too! Unfortunate, but the DDP is still cheaper than a Dreadclaw for my Cortus.
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Post by: chaos45
ya the change to DDP was stupid.........Lets see lets make them far less useful and in give them a good sized point increase as well.
Some of the changes were really good and needed...as usual tho others just make you scratch you head like what?
If they had allowed the pod to act like ablative armor still the point increase was needed but since it no longer does that the point increase wasnt needed.
Its like hey this needs a nerf lets hit it a couple times with the nerf bat instead of just once lol
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
chaos45 wrote:ya the change to DDP was stupid.........Lets see lets make them far less useful and in give them a good sized point increase as well.
Some of the changes were really good and needed...as usual tho others just make you scratch you head like what?
If they had allowed the pod to act like ablative armor still the point increase was needed but since it no longer does that the point increase wasnt needed.
Its like hey this needs a nerf lets hit it a couple times with the nerf bat instead of just once lol
Eh. Maybe it was something they saw in testing that needed it. Hard to tell, but I doubt it was arbitrary. This is FW, after all.
It may have been a way to help curb Pod Leviathans though, as it does increase their cost to Deep Strike in without adding to the already high cost of the Dread (and thus making it too expensive to run without a Pod).
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Post by: gorgon
It may have been a bit heavy-handed, but then Leviathans in DDPs were a bit point-and-click. I'm still planning to run one. As a WE player I'll have plenty of other targets in their face to force some hard decisions.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
gorgon wrote:It may have been a bit heavy-handed, but then Leviathans in DDPs were a bit point-and-click. I'm still planning to run one. As a WE player I'll have plenty of other targets in their face to force some hard decisions.
I don't think they had a better alternative beyond just forcing players to use the Anvillus and Kharybdis. So this is like a happy middle-ground, really.
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Post by: Decay
I'm not exactly sure what got nerfed here, as a newish 30k player can someone explain to me which combo can't be used as well anymore? Is it because of the increase in Dread pod points?
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Post by: Crazyterran
You can shoot dreads in dread pods now, instead of them having a free three hull points to protect them.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
 Crazyterran wrote:You can shoot dreads in dread pods now, instead of them having a free three hull points to protect them.
I never liked that myself, so I am glad they took that away. Always felt a bit cheap.
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Post by: pm713
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Crazyterran wrote:You can shoot dreads in dread pods now, instead of them having a free three hull points to protect them.
I never liked that myself, so I am glad they took that away. Always felt a bit cheap.
I never had an issue with it. But I see why you would.
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Post by: Decay
Does the dread still get a cover save?
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Post by: Walnuts
Wouldn't matter for leviathans / deredeos / contemptors since they have invul saves anyway. As for boxnaughts, does anyone bother with those in 40k?
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Post by: Swampmist
I am sad about the Dreadpod nerf, because I like Flamer Boxnaughts...
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Post by: Brennonjw
boxnought for life.
cheaper than contemptors, more weapon options (flamestorm cannons with shred eat EVERYTHING), easier to spam, with grenade changes are slightly better at tying up tac squads, etc.
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Post by: Walnuts
 Swampmist wrote:I am sad about the Dreadpod nerf, because I like Flamer Boxnaughts...
Yeah, see I was def thinking about incorporating an inferno flamer boxnaught into my force, but you'd want him to hop out as soon as he hits the deck anyway, so that he can flame on, right? Like if you're using him for MEQ hunting, that S6 AP3 teardrop, impeccably placed, is not the sort of thing you want to waste a turn to materialize so only downside is the point cost increase.
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Post by: Swampmist
DropPods are Open Topped so you can fire out. On a good scatter, you could stay inside and burninate to your hearts content.
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Post by: jasper76
Has anyone got a copy yet? I'm still waiting on mine in the US, and haven't gotten any email from FW that its been shipped...wondering if I should call.
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Post by: gorgon
Nah, be patient. It just went live this weekend, they probably got a ton of orders, and the staff is likely still busy with the aftermath of the Open Day.
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Post by: jasper76
Roger that. This is the first time I've ordered directly from FW without my flgs in the middle, so I'm not sure what to expect.
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Post by: Walnuts
Swampmist wrote:DropPods are Open Topped so you can fire out. On a good scatter, you could stay inside and burninate to your hearts content.
The doors gotta open, dude, you'd never get close enough to hit anything. Or wait, are you advocating that even with the doors closed you can still shoot out? "cause oh man is that some RAW nonsense!
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Walnuts wrote: Swampmist wrote:DropPods are Open Topped so you can fire out. On a good scatter, you could stay inside and burninate to your hearts content.
The doors gotta open, dude, you'd never get close enough to hit anything. Or wait, are you advocating that even with the doors closed you can still shoot out? "cause oh man is that some RAW nonsense!
Every point on the door can be fired from.
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Post by: Ashiraya
It is open-topped. The entire vehicle is a fire point.
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Post by: Walnuts
Wow, that's insane. Makes as much sense as models being able to shoot out from the inside of a land raider. Okay, I can totally see why forgeworld changed the rules so the doors have to open.
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Post by: Swampmist
yeah, as much as it saddens me it does help game balance, as well as increasing the intuitiveness of the rules.
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Post by: Azreal13
gorgon wrote:Nah, be patient. It just went live this weekend, they probably got a ton of orders, and the staff is likely still busy with the aftermath of the Open Day.
Mine's pending still as well, and I made this same assumption.
Then I realized that the fact that the FW mail order system is apparently completely separate from the much bigger and generally slicker GW proper mail order is one of the daftest and must inefficient GW related things I've seen in a good while...
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Post by: Tamwulf
I really like physical books (like I have all the black leather books so far- except for this one. Sold out before I could get online and order it ), but I'm really wondering if I should get he digital copy too? I bring my iPad to every game anyways, so... yeah, I'll probably get both. Thanks Forge World!
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Post by: Brennonjw
Mine shipped Monday and should be here soon, so I guess I just got lucky? And I can also answer questions, assuming none of 'yas get your books soon-ish.
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Post by: Azreal13
Had a shipping notification earlier, so I'm guessing it'll arrive Fri/Sat assuming they've used 2nd class mail.
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Post by: kronk
Brennonjw wrote:Mine shipped Monday and should be here soon, so I guess I just got lucky? And I can also answer questions, assuming none of 'yas get your books soon-ish.
My shipments from ForgeWorld have all been right at 1 week delivery time from shipment notification to arrival, both in Houston and Chicago.
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Post by: Totalwar1402
Are Breacher squads cheaper now?
I ve got 40 Ultra Breachers but they're just so eye wateringly expensive points wise. Why take them when an Invictari costs the exact same but is better in virtually every regard?
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Post by: Brennonjw
 Totalwar1402 wrote:Are Breacher squads cheaper now?
I ve got 40 Ultra Breachers but they're just so eye wateringly expensive points wise. Why take them when an Invictari costs the exact same but is better in virtually every regard?
well, 1) Invictari are stupidly expensive money wise , and 2) Breachers are troops.... I guess?
Anywho, IIRC they are 25 points base cheaper, but extra dudes cost 5 points over current, if that makes sense.
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Post by: King Amroth
Breachers are pretty great especially with an apothecary and are now cheaper. 2x10 man units is about all you need, but sticking 4 10 man units on the table and some suzerains would be cool, all with apothecaries.
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Post by: jasper76
I put in my order a couple days before release, and just got the email it's been shipped. So hopefully that means they are reaching the end of their queue.
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
My order confirmation for the book just came in today as well, so if past orders are anything to go off, it will be here anytime from Friday-Tuesday.
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Post by: Walnuts
Yeah, if those numbers are accurate that actually makes a full squad more expensive by 25 points. Wooof.
Small squads are a little more doable, which is nice if you plan on using them for zone mortalis missions, which is, you know, where they should shine and all that.
It seems like FW wants them to be 5 points more than a tactical marine for the favor of getting that shield. The prob is, that shield really isn't worth 5 points on a 12.5 point model. It not going to soak enough wounds to be better than just having more numbers of cheaper marines on the table.
So breachers aren't a good jack of all trades troop choice, but they can still be good for zone mortalis, using a land raider with taking up a heavy slot, and when you really want access to their special weapons. Pretty niche, but I'm not super upset about that.
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
With the discount on the base cost of the Breachers they would work better for making more durable MSU for the Ultramarines to take advantage of their Legion Rules.
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Post by: Walnuts
And for the smurfs they get 5 point power swords which is awesome, like, visually and in terms of battlefield effectiveness.
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Post by: Brennonjw
true, but when you keep in mind that they are "intended" (I assume, since they are so zones mortalis focused) to be 15 man squads, it makes more sense. BUT 5 points for defensive grenades, a terminator invuln in CC, and a reroll of your save vs. templates and blasts is a bit of a steal, innit?
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Post by: gorgon
 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:My order confirmation for the book just came in today as well, so if past orders are anything to go off, it will be here anytime from Friday-Tuesday.
Thirded.
Can't wait to start cooking up lists.  
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Post by: Swampmist
Brennonjw wrote:true, but when you keep in mind that they are "intended" (I assume, since they are so zones mortalis focused) to be 15 man squads, it makes more sense. BUT 5 points for defensive grenades, a terminator invuln in CC, and a reroll of your save vs. templates and blasts is a bit of a steal, innit?
Only really in ZM, and with the sarg. You only get to reroll armor saves, so AP3 or lower blasts like phosphex, Scorpious shells and Demolisher cannons are still gonna give you a bad time.
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Post by: Brennonjw
Swampmist wrote: Brennonjw wrote:true, but when you keep in mind that they are "intended" (I assume, since they are so zones mortalis focused) to be 15 man squads, it makes more sense. BUT 5 points for defensive grenades, a terminator invuln in CC, and a reroll of your save vs. templates and blasts is a bit of a steal, innit?
Only really in ZM, and with the sarg. You only get to reroll armor saves, so AP3 or lower blasts like phosphex, Scorpious shells and Demolisher cannons are still gonna give you a bad time.
yeah, but that reroll makes them decent against quad-mortars w/o phosphex, and against flamer/heavy flamer support squads as well
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Post by: Walnuts
Brennonjw wrote:true, but when you keep in mind that they are "intended" (I assume, since they are so zones mortalis focused) to be 15 man squads, it makes more sense. BUT 5 points for defensive grenades, a terminator invuln in CC, and a reroll of your save vs. templates and blasts is a bit of a steal, innit?
Nah, not really. Paying for defensive grenades for a full squad is like paying for meltabombs for a full squad. It's good but a bit overkill (assuming you've got the spare HQ slot you could stick a centurion with a shield into a tactical squad for less points!). That re-roll for the armor saves doesn't seem so great to me in 30k. In 40k flamers are everywhere, but in 30k they're really dang hard to work into your army since you need full squads of em. I haven't encountered a single instance where that re-roll would have helped me, and I don't know how long it's going to be until I do. How many template or blast weapons are you going to get hit with that are AP4 or worse? Even if you factor in the the serg having artificer armor and being up front to tank some AP3 hits it still seems like a pretty rare occurrence. And finally, paying for an invul save doesn't help much if it increases your survivability by 33% sometimes, but makes your cost go up by 33%. If you're getting nailed with AP1-3 weapons in hand to hand, your survivability vs tacticals is about dead even (considering they'd have more boots on the ground). If you're getting shot or getting nailed in hand to hand with a weapon that's AP4 or worse, the tactical survivability is way higher.
So yeah, I'm actually working on a squad of these guys as we speak, and I don't think they're worthless, they're just not auto-include like my assault marines are and they'll probably gather a bit more dust than my tacticals. They're niche, and that's fine.
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Post by: Wilson
How is everyone reading the War Machine Detatchment rule?
can legions now take imperial Knights from the Questoris Knight army list by using a war machine Detatchment or is that list just giving you all options for the relevant army?
Page reference no. 9.
I'm reading it as no, only super heavies from the relevant army list. Opinions welcome!
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
 Wilson wrote:How is everyone reading the War Machine Detatchment rule?
can legions now take imperial Knights from the Questoris Knight army list by using a war machine Detatchment or is that list just giving you all options for the relevant army?
Page reference no. 9.
I'm reading it as no, only super heavies from the relevant army list. Opinions welcome!
It clearly states use of Questoris Knights.
'War Machine Detachment: 1-2 Super-heavy vehicles of the same unit type, each with a Hull Points value of 8 or less, and each chosen either from the specific army list for the Primary Detachment, the Questoris Knights army list found in the Crusade Imperialis army list..."
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Post by: King Amroth
Yea the wording is clear, knights are now available to legions as LOW as 1 or 2.
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Post by: Wilson
Cool, I guess I just read it too many times and confused myself! Merci.
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Post by: Azreal13
Book in hand, if anyone wants to ask specific questions/ get confirmation.
I've not played 30K yet, and this is my first proper 30K book, so probably better to speak slowly and use short words..
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Post by: Swampmist
I've had it in hand for a while because of Ebooks
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Post by: Freytag93
 Azreal13 wrote:Book in hand, if anyone wants to ask specific questions/ get confirmation.
I've not played 30K yet, and this is my first proper 30K book, so probably better to speak slowly and use short words..
Are the point changes listed at the beginning of page 2 correct? I just want to know if I should start list building again.
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Post by: Swampmist
The battlescribe file is fixed now, so that's good.
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Post by: Azreal13
Freytag93 wrote: Azreal13 wrote:Book in hand, if anyone wants to ask specific questions/ get confirmation.
I've not played 30K yet, and this is my first proper 30K book, so probably better to speak slowly and use short words..
Are the point changes listed at the beginning of page 2 correct? I just want to know if I should start list building again.
Like I said, I've got no other books, so haven't got any frame of reference to advise on that, if you want to say "are X now Y points" based on that list's info and the existing costs, I'd be happy to help!
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Post by: Kasper Hawser
Got my book today I'm glad to see Dreadclaws have got inertia guidance system with there pts increase.
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Post by: King Amroth
For anyone who already has the book whats the point cost of giving a quad mortar shatter shells?
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Post by: Peregrine
King Amroth wrote:For anyone who already has the book whats the point cost of giving a quad mortar shatter shells?
+20 per gun, plus the cost of the HQ to unlock them.
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Post by: Azreal13
That's Phosphex
Shatter is +10 plus base, plus cost to upgrade to Support Battery.
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Post by: King Amroth
Azreal13 wrote:That's Phosphex
Shatter is +10 plus base, plus cost to upgrade to Support Battery.
Is that in the new book? As they have changed from previous books it would seem.
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Post by: Azreal13
Yep, 100% the new book.
Not sure how it worked in the old one, but you now buy the battery, with heavy Bolters, can upgrade to Graviton or Las, then, if you want quads you must pay to upgrade the whole battery to a support battery which gives them quads with Frag, you then can add the other shell types at additional cost, with Phosphex carrying the additional restriction of the Siege Consul.
I'm a bit wary of sharing points values, as that's often deemed the line in the sand, but a quad mortar with frag and shatter is now the cost of two rhinos, or, alternatively, costs 10pts per point of toughness.
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Post by: King Amroth
Yea dont share exact points, ive just been trying to figure out how it work as battlescribe seems confused.
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Post by: Blacksails
I'm assuming this deals exclusively with marines, but just in case, are there any changes for the Imperial Militia and Cults?
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
 Blacksails wrote:I'm assuming this deals exclusively with marines, but just in case, are there any changes for the Imperial Militia and Cults?
Different book. That is Crusade Imperialis.
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Post by: locarno24
I'm assuming this deals exclusively with marines, but just in case, are there any changes for the Imperial Militia and Cults?
There is a Crusade Imperialis red book - nothing really changed for them aside from adding in errata elements (like the points costs for Rogue Psykers).
There are certainly no new units and if anything changed in points costs I haven't noticed it yet.
Quaestoris Knights (in the same book) changed quite a bit - adding in formal 'Quaestoris' entries for the Codex : Imperial Knights chassis like the Warden, Gallant & Crusader - which don't actually match the points costs, and in some cases the weapon options - of their 40k counterparts.
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Post by: jasper76
Just got mine, yay. It's a much more high quality book (binding, page quality, etc.) than I was expecting. Feels like I got something fancy!
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Post by: Mr. Grey
I've gotta order a copy at some point - I'm really happy with the Legions book, well worth the price, and I imagine the Army List is much the same.
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Post by: Mozzyfuzzy
Are the Shattered Legions rules in this book, or do I need the last black book aswell?
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Post by: Ustrello
 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:Are the Shattered Legions rules in this book, or do I need the last black book aswell?
You will need book 6 I believe (for blackshields at least)
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