For $100 the Daimyo Pledge gets you a Rising Sun core game as well as the Kickstarter Exclusive Phoenix monster, and any stretch goals we manage to unlock!
Please Take Note!
Based on past experience, we will be charging shipping after the Kickstarter concludes based on the actual costs incurred to ship. We will collect this via our pledge manager after the campaign ends. This is so we can be fair to all our backers as shipping is rarely one size fits all, and also give you more stretch goodies and possibly a choice of carrier options.
We will ship your rewards at our cost to our international hubs. Depending on where in the world you are, we will either ship to you from our hub in the UK (EU backers), China (Asia Pacific backers), Canada (Canadian backers), Australia (Australia and New Zealand backers) or Atlanta (USA and the rest of the world). Following is a list of rough estimates for shipping a standard game package (4kg volumetric weight). Keep in mind these are just estimates, and costs may rise based on weight increases from unlocked stretch goals and any optional buys you choose.
•USA: $10-$15 to most states. $30 to Alaska, Hawaii, and Puerto Rico.
•CANADA: $10-$20 to most cities.
•LATIN AMERICA: $50-$60 to most countries.
•ASIA: $10 to China and Hong Kong. $30 to most other countries (we can't predict an estimate cost to Malaysia).
•OCEANIA: $13-$25 to Australia. $30 to New Zealand.
•AFRICA: $80 to most countries.
•EUROPE: $15-$30 to most countries.
• $35 to Norway, Finland, Estland, Lettland, and Latvia.
• $40 to Bosnia/Herzegovina, Croatia, and Serbia.
• $55 to Bulgaria, Lithuania, and Romania.
• $60 to Iceland and Israel.
• $70 to Greece and Turkey.
Unfortunately, different import laws and customs from some specific countries have made it impossible for CMON to ship games to them.
*WE DO NOT SHIP TO:* Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan and Afghanistan.
Absolutely stunning. I suspect something similar to Blood Rage?
(Meaning: Boardgame with miniature pieces that are not REALLY needed, but make the game visually awesome.)
Between this and the new flying frog feudal japan brimstone game, I should have me more japanese figures than I'll ever need.
At least my wife is willing to try it out due to the background.
Kickstarter, but it's not been posted yet. I believe it is a couple months out yet. Cmon is completing and delivering the ks for xenoshyft, the others, and both arcadia quests right now.
DaveC wrote: SMV finished up sculpting Rising Sun at the end of June/start of July and then moved on to HATE after that so it's behind Rising Sun.
The Rising Sun sculpts are by Remy Tremblay. Yannick Hennebo and Micheal Jenkins. I know JAG had made a start on HATE.
My last answer to this was eaten by Nurglings, but I'm thankful for it and JAG makes me even more excited. CMON has mostly good sculptors, but he is one great sculptor that I have only a few minis from. 2017 (so 2018 at the earliest) makes me bummed, but then again I have sooo much stuff (and more coming up ).
The Blood Rage minis absolutely do not suffer for being made of PVC. They're just as easy to paint as Reaper Bones, but more detailed and less bendy, and are amazing sculpts.
Miniatures for 3 of the 5 clans - Top row - Koi Clan, Middle row - Dragonfly Clan, Bottom row - Bonsai Clan. The other 2 clans are Turtle and Lotus. The Daimyo is on the left next is the Shinto and then 2 sculpts for the Bushi.
Designer of the game, Eric M. Lang, was kind enough to give us a taste of how the oni will work: “Normally you want to be high in honor, because it gives you tremendous bonuses in game. However, there are a few strategies (like the usage of these hideous oni) that reward the dishonorable. Choose your path carefully!”
"Bushi are the primary force for each player's Clan, able to dominate the map in both war and harvest time."
"Shinto are warrior priests, traveling the Earth alongside the Bushi or worshiping the heavens at the Kami temple to gain you favor. They are a highly versatile figure, and players have a limited amount of each,"
"The Daimyo is your leader. Each player only gets one. They represent force on the board like any other figure, but they can also provide during Harvest time. And unlike other figures, they can be upgraded through powerful enhancements throughout the game. Daimyos provide force like any other figure, but they cannot be targeted by card effects nor taken hostage in combat."
"Each Clan has a powerful ability that affects every players’ strategic and tactical decision-making. Their abilities also give them something unique to offer during the Tea Ceremony (deal making phase) of each turn. The Dragonfly, have the ability to fly across the map and ignore normal movement rules. It is important to me that the Clans have a lot of personality, which is why I gave them all strongly defining special abilities. On the other hand, I don’t want the Clans to be pigeonholed into scripted game play either. The design of the Clans gives players powerful negotiating tools (as they each have unique advantages all the time), but the upgrade cards players buy during the course of the game are from a common pool, so even if you enjoy the Koi for their powerful ability, you’ll be able to try a variety of different strategies each game.”
"While players each represent a Clan, they may also recruit monsters to join them. Monsters like the powerful Phoenix, which never truly dies in battle. In Rising Sun's twist on Japanese folklore, the Yurei is the fell ghost of a long passed Daimyo. In the game, the player who gets to use this will have all the benefits of a second leader to their clan! Very powerful indeed.”
Damn, those really are going to be some impressive sculpts.
I have a feeling this is going to be a big campaign, considering the love Blood Rage gets and the hype they've been building up for this one over the past year. I wonder if it'll be a full month long campaign?
They'll get my pledge, no doubt.
Plus if I'm not happy with how Forbidden Fortress' figures end up I can always use these instead!
I loooove Blood Rage, and the quality of the models there was really top notch, right up there with most wargaming models. I am super excited for this one, even though I probably don't need another board game
For anyone worried about the figures though, the only concern on quality is the spears, which will need to be straightened. The other concern is that they will be hard to come by in the future; I am still irked that many of the Blood Rage expansions were not released.
I replaced a lot of the spears on my Blood Rage minis with wire ones. Bit of a shame as the heads on the originals were nice, but it's really no big deal.
I want this game for the minis, but pvc will destroy detail. I passed on the World of Smog because of that. It had some wonderful sculpts, but when they showed the casts... Damn, was it a waste of sculptors talent.
MLaw wrote: After today's Massive Darkness update I'm done with CMON.. Good luck to everyone backing this
The "No ETA" thing? I'm assuming that it'll be either September or January. That's how they seem to roll. I only back very occasional CMON KS (or anyone'sKS) at this point.
We know you're anxious to dive into the Darkness, and so are we. But good things come to those who wait, and we still have some ways to go yet. The factory is still closed due to the Chinese New Year. In the meantime we are getting everything ready to start production in high gear once the factory reopens. Once production starts in earnest we'll be able to provide you with an up-to-date schedule for the delivery of this Kickstarter.
it seems a bit odd to have that be the cause of a meltdown at the nuclear overreactor!
The BLOOD RAGE minis were fantastic, so I suspect that these will be too.
Still on the fence about whether or not to back this one though.
Eric Lang is consistently fantastic when it comes to game design. I'm backing this one even if I either just keep the minis as playing pieces, unpainted... or sell them and use counters,
We know you're anxious to dive into the Darkness, and so are we. But good things come to those who wait, and we still have some ways to go yet. The factory is still closed due to the Chinese New Year. In the meantime we are getting everything ready to start production in high gear once the factory reopens. Once production starts in earnest we'll be able to provide you with an up-to-date schedule for the delivery of this Kickstarter.
it seems a bit odd to have that be the cause of a meltdown at the nuclear overreactor!
The BLOOD RAGE minis were fantastic, so I suspect that these will be too.
Still on the fence about whether or not to back this one though.
It's not so much a nuclear meltdown as a straw breaking a camel's back type of thing.. They've done how many of these now? They don't communicate unless it's dire and leave people hanging. I was in the boat of getting a French rulebook for ZBP and the only responses I got to queries about replacements were rude "wait your turn, you'll get it when you do" sort of things.. They were slightly more professional than that but only just. Then when I was concerned about my Others pledge not arriving before my move, their response was that it was my problem and I need to make sure the post office is up to date. They are the only KS I've ever had respond like that to a concern about a move (and I've backed.. too many). The Hellfire Club in Others looks like Tomy Toys ran the molds but CMoN won't reply to questions about the QA on that. Now, Massive Darkness FINALLY gets an update and it's an update to say here's some really thin doors and we have no clue when we'll have your stuff. It's not like it's their first time dealing with China.. you'd think they'd have this figured out.
Anyway.. when they get a good hit, it's good. I had 1 problem with Rum and Bones and that was dice.. I love everything else about that. The other CMoN projects I've backed have been headaches.. and they really don't seem to have changed or have a plan to change anything at this point.. so.. yeah. Not a nuclear meltdown just finally fed up with their BS.
CMON really has...subotptimal... CS after a campaign ends. Every other company going so quiet after getting $$$ would make me suspect fraud
Their campaigns are always late, no matter how much experience they have. So that doesn't matter in my decision to back or not. The fact that nobody really wants to play and the minis, while often very nice for PVC don't lend themselves well to my true passion in this hobby: converting.
Rising Sun will stay on my radar thanks to Blood Rage and Eric but what I'm really hoping for is another Masmorra game in a few years when my nephews are all old enough to read. Kicking myself for not backing Inferno and freezing it for a couple of years. So I hope KS support doesn't dry out because of their antics.
We know you're anxious to dive into the Darkness, and so are we. But good things come to those who wait, and we still have some ways to go yet. The factory is still closed due to the Chinese New Year. In the meantime we are getting everything ready to start production in high gear once the factory reopens. Once production starts in earnest we'll be able to provide you with an up-to-date schedule for the delivery of this Kickstarter.
it seems a bit odd to have that be the cause of a meltdown at the nuclear overreactor!
The BLOOD RAGE minis were fantastic, so I suspect that these will be too.
Still on the fence about whether or not to back this one though.
It's not so much a nuclear meltdown as a straw breaking a camel's back type of thing.. They've done how many of these now? They don't communicate unless it's dire and leave people hanging. I was in the boat of getting a French rulebook for ZBP and the only responses I got to queries about replacements were rude "wait your turn, you'll get it when you do" sort of things.. They were slightly more professional than that but only just. Then when I was concerned about my Others pledge not arriving before my move, their response was that it was my problem and I need to make sure the post office is up to date. They are the only KS I've ever had respond like that to a concern about a move (and I've backed.. too many). The Hellfire Club in Others looks like Tomy Toys ran the molds but CMoN won't reply to questions about the QA on that. Now, Massive Darkness FINALLY gets an update and it's an update to say here's some really thin doors and we have no clue when we'll have your stuff. It's not like it's their first time dealing with China.. you'd think they'd have this figured out.
Anyway.. when they get a good hit, it's good. I had 1 problem with Rum and Bones and that was dice.. I love everything else about that. The other CMoN projects I've backed have been headaches.. and they really don't seem to have changed or have a plan to change anything at this point.. so.. yeah. Not a nuclear meltdown just finally fed up with their BS.
Well, clearly experiences will differ, and I've had pretty much the exact opposite of yours, once we got past the initial stumbling that were RELIC KNIGHTS and SEDITION WARS.
Since then, I've had nothing but excellent results and well run campaigns, start to finish. And the overall quality of all components, especially miniatures, has definitely gotten better - way better!
I'd bet that they'll knock this one out of the park quality-wise, and that they might be late by a bit in delivering it too.
If you figure in the track record two months for items to get into the containers, come across the ocean and hopefully get waived through customs, then it would be late as of now. The fact that production hasnt begun and packing is not started means at least a solid month late, probably 2-3 even before customs holding things up or dock strikes.
I am still a big fan of the CMON quality, but their response time to emails is terrible and the big push for everything to be Kickstarter exclusive has me put off (skipped the last one due to funds and all the exclusives needed to be bought in Kickstarter). I'm on the fence with this one, I was super stoked due to the Asian theme, but I'm more looking for samurai than what I've seen so far.
We know you're anxious to dive into the Darkness, and so are we. But good things come to those who wait, and we still have some ways to go yet. The factory is still closed due to the Chinese New Year. In the meantime we are getting everything ready to start production in high gear once the factory reopens. Once production starts in earnest we'll be able to provide you with an up-to-date schedule for the delivery of this Kickstarter.
it seems a bit odd to have that be the cause of a meltdown at the nuclear overreactor!
The BLOOD RAGE minis were fantastic, so I suspect that these will be too.
Still on the fence about whether or not to back this one though.
It's not so much a nuclear meltdown as a straw breaking a camel's back type of thing.. They've done how many of these now? They don't communicate unless it's dire and leave people hanging. I was in the boat of getting a French rulebook for ZBP and the only responses I got to queries about replacements were rude "wait your turn, you'll get it when you do" sort of things.. They were slightly more professional than that but only just. Then when I was concerned about my Others pledge not arriving before my move, their response was that it was my problem and I need to make sure the post office is up to date. They are the only KS I've ever had respond like that to a concern about a move (and I've backed.. too many). The Hellfire Club in Others looks like Tomy Toys ran the molds but CMoN won't reply to questions about the QA on that. Now, Massive Darkness FINALLY gets an update and it's an update to say here's some really thin doors and we have no clue when we'll have your stuff. It's not like it's their first time dealing with China.. you'd think they'd have this figured out.
Anyway.. when they get a good hit, it's good. I had 1 problem with Rum and Bones and that was dice.. I love everything else about that. The other CMoN projects I've backed have been headaches.. and they really don't seem to have changed or have a plan to change anything at this point.. so.. yeah. Not a nuclear meltdown just finally fed up with their BS.
Well, clearly experiences will differ, and I've had pretty much the exact opposite of yours, once we got past the initial stumbling that were RELIC KNIGHTS and SEDITION WARS.
Since then, I've had nothing but excellent results and well run campaigns, start to finish. And the overall quality of all components, especially miniatures, has definitely gotten better - way better!
I'd bet that they'll knock this one out of the park quality-wise, and that they might be late by a bit in delivering it too.
I think the key point is that neither of our experiences are unique.. and for me that's enough of a reason.
CMON has cleared up every headache I've gotten over their campaigns- missing games, bits not present, damaged parts, duplicates of the wrong items, random parts missing from models...
It may take a while, but everything has gotten to me at some point or another.
Kirasu wrote: Chinese new years are funny, it's like they shut down for an entire month. Never try to order anything in mid-dec to February!
Basically the same as July-august in much of Europe. Everyone takes 4-5 weeks of vacation and it's impossible to get anything done. You try to schedule everything by mid-June because after that nothing happens anywhere until mid-late August, or if it does it's done by inexperienced summer workers :p
That's too broad a timeframe, I ordered some items in early January and was able to get them expedited and out before CNY, and many companies are back to work now (not CMON's though, it seems!). It's a little longer, but honestly not unlike the holidays here, imo.
Exactly , what is the quality level of the minis of blood rage?
Im very interested in this kickctarter , but will the production mini resemble the one presented in the sneak peek?
saluti
Substantially lower quality, I'm afraid. Those are the resin masters, whereas the game contents will be CMON's bendy plastic. If Blood Rage is anything to go by, the miniatures will still be nice, but finer details will be lost, and you may experience some severe mold lines. If you're only interested in the Kickstarter due to the collector quality miniatures showcased (ie. indifferent to the actual game), you might find it best to give it a pass.
Exactly , what is the quality level of the minis of blood rage?
Im very interested in this kickctarter , but will the production mini resemble the one presented in the sneak peek?
saluti
Substantially lower quality, I'm afraid. Those are the resin masters, whereas the game contents will be CMON's bendy plastic. If Blood Rage is anything to go by, the miniatures will still be nice, but finer details will be lost, and you may experience some severe mold lines. If you're only interested in the Kickstarter due to the collector quality miniatures showcased (ie. indifferent to the actual game), you might find it best to give it a pass.
I had no mold lines what so ever with my blood rage stuff, I backed the Kickstarter and got everything but the art book. As for bendy the only bent things I got were spears and swords, which with a quick hot water bath and then a cold water bath after straightening they were resolved. I've not heard of bad mold lines with them either.
@Theophony
Well, that's both good to hear in regards to the quality I can expect from this, and disappointing given the amount of what can only be described as mold slipping and smothered details I got with my Blood Rage pledge. Bought everything, including the art book, and it's more a matter of certain sculpts being consistently "damaged". The Raven Clan are the worst affected, with boot wrappings and cord melting into each other, and huge lines running over the shoulders of the sculpt with the two ravens, resulting in bisected, blob-like birds. A few miniatures here and there have some shallow detail when it comes to the Norse symbols and swirls etched into or rising out of armor plates, but by and large, most miniatures are unaffected, bar some intense flash.
Not trying to put anyone off, just sharing my experience. Overall I am very happy with them, and the more perfect sculpts certainly outnumber the poor casts.
I've been painting my Blood Rage minis lately so am very much aware of some of the mold line issues. I agree with Tim that most of the sculpts are fine. In particular, the big monsters have excellent detail, and most of the regular infantry-sized dudes do too -- certainly much better than on Reaper Bones minis of that size. I found the mold lines removable by the usual techniques on PVC plastic (slice, don't scrape) though some were tough to remove without also losing detail. Still an incredible deal for the quality of minis and game (I backed the KS for the regular game only).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and I have some reasonable quality pics of my reasonable quality paint jobs of some of the big monsters from Blood Rage here:
You're looking in the wrong place for high-quality miniatures if you're looking at boardgame plastic. Nobody owns Japanese mythology, so go to the Reaper Miniatures KS boards and wait for someone to post yet another Japanese mythology miniatures KS. I think there's one right now, although they've only shown renders. CMON miniatures are much better than most retail boardgame plastic miniatures, and, imo, fine for advanced tabletop painting.
I think this may be the highest initial funding goal I've seen from CMON. Amusing that even without early birds and only one pledge level they still broke Kickstarter.
Looks quite tempting, although to be honest I'm not a fan of the stretch goal monsters so far, they're too human-sized. The base game sculpts look incredible, though!
Blood Rage models are pretty solid quality. They're obviously not resin, but to refer to them only as "board game plastic" is a tad insulting - they have actual, discernable facial features
On the scale thing; assuming these models are along the same lines as the BR ones, then the basic human models will be on ~25mm bases, so that would give you some idea of their size & proportions. I was actually surprised by how slight the BR models turned out to be.
sounds like sculpted at 32mm and we haven't got a test cast in PVC to see how much they shrink yet (fair enough as we know from their other recent stuff they now allow for shrinkage in the detail)
Wow, amazed by how much this has raked in in such a short period of time!
Re. the miniatures comments, I'm amazed at how derogatory the comments are towards some of the more recent board game miniature quality. In my view in some cases they have taken massive steps forward, and for anyone of moderate painting ability carries more than enough detail to result in an impressive looking piece (be it for wargaming or a board game). I'm thinking here of the likes of Zombicide BP and Conan. Check out some of the gallery and threat posts by the likes of AAN on this forum.
I only say this because you might get a number of people who haven't seen for themself, go away thinking "well that won't be as good as my space marines I won't bother", when in actual fact it isn't the case a lot of the time.
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: It's odd, they don't show the miniatures in the material/quality they sell them in.
I would back the KS mainly for the minis, but that move makes it look very dodgy.
It's not coming for a year yet, so they have the resin masters not the final materials because they haven't produced them yet. It could look dodgy IF it was a first Kickstarter by an unknown company, but they have 25+ delivered or being delivered currently, so I think dodgy is not the best wording. Plus they haven't changed materials without warning like Mantic or other people.
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: It's odd, they don't show the miniatures in the material/quality they sell them in.
I would back the KS mainly for the minis, but that move makes it look very dodgy.
Eh, they've done a gazillion of these things, and have gotten better with each release. Their material/quality is pretty well known at this point. Is there any reason to suspect these wont be on par with Black Plague?
I backed it. Just couldn't pass it up. Not sure I will ever paint up to a standard I believe would do those models justice... but either way I am happy I got it.
I have a question: for the World of Smog game have they shown the final versions of miniatures, or resin masters as well?
Because there were a lot of cracks and rough edges in the shown examples.
If they were the final version, that`s sad and it`s weird, that they had them for that game during/before KS, but not for "Rising sun".
And if it was masters, that is sadder yet.
Originally figured I'd pass on "Blood Rage: Japan" - though BR is indeed awesome, I figured I didn't need another version. Now, after seeing the sculpts and how they've tweaked the original, I'm totally in.
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: I have a question: for the World of Smog game have they shown the final versions of miniatures, or resin masters as well?
Because there were a lot of cracks and rough edges in the shown examples.
If they were the final version, that`s sad and it`s weird, that they had them for that game during/before KS, but not for "Rising sun".
And if it was masters, that is sadder yet.
The only rough ones I recall were a couple in this update... in particular something pretty clearly went wrong on the Captain ally figure, as it looks like garbage.
I think the ones in Smod were a mix of resin, render, and a few production samples. Some are separate from the base, which seems to me they are a resin master or printed prototype. Definitely not a production model.
Pacific wrote: Re. the miniatures comments, I'm amazed at how derogatory the comments are towards some of the more recent board game miniature quality. In my view in some cases they have taken massive steps forward, and for anyone of moderate painting ability carries more than enough detail to result in an impressive looking piece (be it for wargaming or a board game). I'm thinking here of the likes of Zombicide BP and Conan. Check out some of the gallery and threat posts by the likes of AAN on this forum.
I only say this because you might get a number of people who haven't seen for themself, go away thinking "well that won't be as good as my space marines I won't bother", when in actual fact it isn't the case a lot of the time.
There's a fellow who goes by the name of Sorastro on his YouTube channel who is does series of tutorials on painting the miniatures from the Descent: Journeys in The Dark, Star Wars: Imperial Assault, and Zombicide: Black Plague board games. He produces some really amazing results with those figures.
Gomez wrote: Originally figured I'd pass on "Blood Rage: Japan" - though BR is indeed awesome, I figured I didn't need another version. Now, after seeing the sculpts and how they've tweaked the original, I'm totally in.
No, pretty sure it's correct usage-- something that's not directly related but another thing with a similar feel. Sounds like the BR/RS relationship to me.
This thing is just starting to slow down after a day and half,...... over $1.6 million!
I must say; I was worried that I would not like the game because,.... I loooooove feudal Japan,.... but it looks like a blast, and has a set game length, no player elimination, etc.
Of course the minis are beautiful. I'm more encouraged that there seems to be a good game in there as well (though you wouldn't know it from the useless game play video that they have included,..... get it together CMON,... your game play video's SUCK!)
One of the game mechanisms is that you choose another player as an ally, and he receives benefits as well. Interesting way for players behind to catch up. Unless you want to play squash the beta!
I'm pretty sure the turtle fortress is tiny. It's not going to be in the same scale as the other minis, but rather, in the same scale as the other fortresses. Gorgeous though! Maybe we can persuade them to give us one giant one as a stretch goal.
New updated pledge image,..... love the new clan,.... but that is a tough spot on the map. I'm hopeful that there will eventually be a clan for all 8 map areas,.... prepare for add ons once this slows down a bit more. Maybe a week or so from now?
Automatically Appended Next Post: 18 Monsters so far!1111
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the orange Fox clan is on deck:
The KS website states that the KS exclusive Phoenix figure is included with the $100 pledge.
Rising Sun Kickstarter page wrote:For $100 the Daimyo Pledge gets you a Rising Sun core game as well as the Kickstarter Exclusive Phoenix monster, and any stretch goals we manage to unlock!
This graphic you posted seems to indicate otherwise.
Does anyone know if they accept late pledges or for people to pledge a dollar and upgrade in the PM? Is piggybacking onto another order possible? Please help me out; I haven't CMONed since Sedition Wars...
The minis look fantastic. If I were doing a Mystic Japan game, I'd definitely get this for the minis. However, the board looks small, and the 3+ Diplomacy design makes it unlikely to see play. :(
They'll let you upgrade from $1 in the PM (do so if you can so you'll get the updates and the chance to post in the KS if you need to later),
They'll let you late pledge too
the one thing you won't be able to do is get any add ons (if we see any for this one) without first pledging for full game
(piggy backing is fine for add ons as they won't change the shipping much if at all, but probably not worth it for the full game as shipping will go up significantly, its no longer a flat $25 for as much booty as you want)
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: They'll let you upgrade from $1 in the PM (do so if you can so you'll get the updates and the chance to post in the KS if you need to later),
They'll let you late pledge too
the one thing you won't be able to do is get any add ons (if we see any for this one) without first pledging for full game
(piggy backing is fine for add ons as they won't change the shipping much if at all, but probably not worth it for the full game as shipping will go up significantly, its no longer a flat $25 for as much booty as you want)
They'll let me get the full $100 pledge, including the exclusives like Notzilla? For this, I'd be after the main pledge...when I can afford it.
Wasn't thinking I would back this when the initial buzz started on this a while back. Took a look after the KS launched and couldn't resist. Looking forward to seeing the finished figs. Blood Rage figs were great so hopefully they stack up to that bar or higher.
D'oh! My mistake, I misunderstood the picture. I thought the stuff listed under "Extras" were extra cost add ons, not stretch goal freebies added to the $100 pledge package.
Beautiful figures, absolutely stunning. Unfortunately the figures are a bit too intricate for me, I don't think I could do them justice, Blood Rage was exhausting enough. Probably should be saving me pennies for my wedding anyway, but still very tempting...
BigOscar wrote: Beautiful figures, absolutely stunning. Unfortunately the figures are a bit too intricate for me, I don't think I could do them justice, Blood Rage was exhausting enough. Probably should be saving me pennies for my wedding anyway, but still very tempting...
BigOscar wrote: Beautiful figures, absolutely stunning. Unfortunately the figures are a bit too intricate for me, I don't think I could do them justice, Blood Rage was exhausting enough. Probably should be saving me pennies for my wedding anyway, but still very tempting...
Get them as the cake toppers!
Ha, I'm pretty sneaky with making excuses to buy things I want, but I think I might struggle with that one! (especially considering they wouldn't arrive even close to In time!) I've already been told to stop buying more figures until at least paint some of the others I have, so I'm trying to be good. We'll see how long that lasts though, once were married there's really not a whole lot she can do, she's stuck with me and my endless pile of unpainted minis
TalonZahn wrote: It funded in like 22 minutes and doubled that about 5 minutes later.
I like having just one pledge level.
Can't wait to see what the Add-ons / Stretch Goals are.
I'm a KS noob. Do KS's usually have additional content (and pledge levels?) added later? If I pledge my $100 now, do I get all future revealed add-ons included? I did notice they added the Fox Clan since I last checked. Or will any new subsequent reveals mean new pledges as well?
you can add to your pledge during and sometimes after the campaign, during helps to reach stretch goals. All you do is modify how much you want to pay if you want some stretch goals that are paid add ons. As with most Cool mini or not kickstarters expect a ton of paid add ons as the campaign goes on.
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote: Do KS's usually have additional content (and pledge levels?) added later?
If I pledge my $100 now, do I get all future revealed add-ons included?
I did notice they added the Fox Clan since I last checked.
Yes, additional content is very typical for a CMoN KS. New pledge levels are not so common, especially not for a CMoN KS.
Yes, you will get ALL of the "included" stretch goal items as part of the $100 pledge. Just look at the big picture on the Campaign tab, and it tells you what you'll get.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Yes, you will get ALL of the "included" stretch goal items as part of the $100 pledge. Just look at the big picture on the Campaign tab, and it tells you what you'll get.
right, I know that, re: the what you get pic. But I mean, is it guaranteed that, say in like 2 weeks, they reveal some new unit expansion for all Clans. Will it be included w/ my $100? Or does that depend on if CMON decides to have be in the "included" stretch goal items? I suppose there is no answer until it happens... Just curious how common or plausible that sort of thing is.
Automatically Appended Next Post: thanks for the other answers
There's no way to tell. In some CMoN games, those are included; in others, you'd have to pay. You'll just have to wait and see what unlocks.
My understanding is that the map has 6 regions, so 6 Clans is the preferred target, but CMoN was prepared to ship a minimum of 5 Clans as their minimally viable game. It's entirely possible that they do an exclusive 7th Clan that you'd have to buy if you wanted it, like the they did in Blood Rage.
Definitely going to keep my eye on this one, models look gorgeous. I haven't played Blood Rage, so I have no real knowledge of how this game would function, but can anyone back my suspicion that it might appeal to some friends who enjoy Settlers of Catan?
Fafnir, if this is as close to Blood Rage as it looks (fairly, not completely close), your Catan buddies will love it, assuming they don't totally hate the prospect of conflict in games.
Eric's designs are at the cutting edge of the combination of Eurogame design principles (Catan style) with Thematic Game (aka Ameritrash*) themes (war and mythology and fantasy) and near-wargame levels of lavish components. Blood Rage will give you all the tactical and strategic depth of the best Euros, and play in an hour or so also like the best contemporary Euros. Thanks to the "honour is more important than life" morality that comes from both the Viking and feudal Japanese cultures, you also get a similar level of interplayer conflict to the most wargamiest of wargames, but with strategic options to allow you to benefit from having your own forces wiped out so long as they die with honour. This means there is no player elimination (often an issue with thematic games) and somewhat less of an issue with one player racing ahead of the others and becoming unstoppable (potentially a problem of both thematic games and Eurogames).
*Ameritrash is an older, potentially derogatory but not used that way here, still probably better-known, term for the big, often complex, often long-playing-time, component-heavy, conflict-driven thematic games.
Ian Sturrock wrote: Fafnir, if this is as close to Blood Rage as it looks (fairly, not completely close), your Catan buddies will love it, assuming they don't totally hate the prospect of conflict in games.
My friends and I exist basically for the sole purpose of conflict. This is a good thing.
*Ameritrash is an older, potentially derogatory but not used that way here, still probably better-known, term for the big, often complex, often long-playing-time, component-heavy, conflict-driven thematic games.
I've used my Blood Rage minis in Frostgrave, Song of Blades and Heroes, and Kings of War, so far, and will likely do the same with my Rising Sun minis.
Thanks for the pointer. Quick question, what's the difference between Frostgrave and Song of Blades and Heroes? Does either ruleset jump out to you as a more natural fit for small Mordheim-scale skirmish battles?
I really like the Frostgrave rules, but the spellcasters are very much the focus of your warband. There's a variant version coming out this year where they are replaced with supernatural warriors, but there will still be a few extra powerful models at the core. I haven't played SoBaH but from what I understand it is very generic (in a good way) and less hero focused.
Fafnir wrote: Definitely going to keep my eye on this one, models look gorgeous. I haven't played Blood Rage, so I have no real knowledge of how this game would function, but can anyone back my suspicion that it might appeal to some friends who enjoy Settlers of Catan?
Anyone with a shared background in boardgaming and miniature wargaming should absolutely love BloodRage. It's basically the best mix of both. My boardgaming group, however, has no patience for rulers and buckets of dices. They do love Catan, Pandemic and Blood Rage, and they already know they'll love Rising Sun.
So... Warhammer.
Technically, no, because miniature wargaming isn't the same as wargaming-boardgames. Think more Risk, Axis and Allies or Memoir 42.
For the vast majority of boardgamers, GW doesn't even register on the radar. They haven't really done anything since the 1990's to change that perception.
True ameritrash would be something like Imperial Assault. A good game, fun, but with an emphasis on production value rather than rule dynamics, such as, let's say, Catan or Bruges.
I'm pretty much in the same boat. Want a war game, not a diplomacy game. I thought CMON's Dogs of War did a pretty good job at being a nasty political backstabbing war game.
In regards to other rules to use this stuff with, vanilla Song of Blades and Heroes lets you take any figure you own and either match it up with premade stat blocks for a variety of fantasy tropes, or use their warband generator and make your own custom characters.
There's campaigns and all sorts of extra bells and whistles to add on top of that, but vanilla plays pretty well.
Advanced Song kicks it up a notch and adds reactions and more defensive abilities, and has started to have some interesting expansion rules show up.
I still prefer the vanilla one as its quick to play and with some imagination you can stat up just about any model you own.
vanilla Song of Blades and Heroes lets you take any figure you own and either match it up with premade stat blocks for a variety of fantasy tropes, or use their warband generator and make your own custom characters.
Thanks very much, this is a much better match. I'll have to check it out. ____
Ian Sturrock wrote: *Ameritrash is an older, potentially derogatory but not used that way here, still probably better-known, term for the big, often complex, often long-playing-time, component-heavy, conflict-driven thematic games.
Yeah, SoBH or ASoBH would be my go-to for the Rising Sun minis. Frostgrave has a bit of a slightly more civilised Viking / northern European early medieval vibe to the art and such already. Plus I had the Mystics expansion free via the Blood Rage KS, and FG also has a Javelineer soldier option which again Blood Rage fitted nicely.
Both Song variants are fine games, pretty easy to learn and quick to play. The Basic one doens't have masses of flavour but that's a feature rather than a bug -- at that kind of scale you really don't care about the difference between a katana and a bastard sword, say.
That said, FG with a Winter Japan-themed board and minis would be beautiful, I think. The wizards are indeed the focus, but a warband of 10 is generally one wizard, one apprentice, and eight warriors. I suspect you could get two warbands, with soldiers of your choice and some wandering monsters, just from the KS Rising Sun box, and have some left over, so long as you didn't mind mixing and matching clans in one warband.
A shame that most local socal game shops aren't able to compete with the online shops when it comes to heavy discounts. I'd much rather buy this stuff in person than online if the prices were comparable.
As soon as I saw that moon clan I knew that Inquisitor Bob wouldn't be able to resist!
CMON's starting to make some efforts for retail. At least with RS, retailers have a retailer's pledge, which includes exclusives that, I guess, the OLGS will not have. Contact your local retailer and ask them to support the retail pledge!
They can buy the sets with the same extras available on KS. Pricing is 40% less (I think) and they are required to sell them as complete packages at the KS price.
A shame that most local socal game shops aren't able to compete with the online shops when it comes to heavy discounts. I'd much rather buy this stuff in person than online if the prices were comparable.
As soon as I saw that moon clan I knew that Inquisitor Bob wouldn't be able to resist!
I can't tell if your first comment is serious or a jab at GW.
I'm totally serious. Brookhurst and Pegasus, the most local stores for me, while they have some pretty nice discounts on hobby- related items (Pegasus especially has some great prices for GW stuff), have no real discounts to speak of on board games or components for them when compared to shops like Miniature Market.
Brookhurst is funny because they offer discounts on some wargame products and not others, as well as a 20% discount for most items that have to be special ordered. So, if they have a boardgame in stock, it will cost more than if they have to order it specially for you.
That Amaterasu mini looks wonderful, although I'm already pondering head and weapon swaps...
Barzam wrote: Ooh, Amaterasu does look good. She even has the Imperial Regalia. Nice touch. Should've been a wolf, but I won't hold that against them.
Okay, I'm a bit rusty on my mythology, but I'm only seeing the Kusanagi and the serpent Orochi(?) else killed. Unless you're calling her halo the mirror and skulls the beads?
I am. There's apparently no official images of the regalia, so I'm assuming they took some liberties with their design. I'm not sure why they went with skulls for the beads though.
The beads would be magatama (those fairly common "9" shaped beads you often see in jade in magical anime and whatnot), so that's some pretty serious liberties as a bunch of multicolored skulls. And that halo definitely doesn't look like it's supposed to be a plate of polished bronze, and much more reflects, well, japanese (usually buddhist) halos...
(edit: yeah, there are no images of the relics, but there are certainly common similar artifacts, plenty enough that one could easily extrapolate the styles that would have been crafted)
spiralingcadaver wrote: And that halo definitely doesn't look like it's supposed to be a plate of polished bronze, and much more reflects, well, japanese (usually buddhist) halos...
There is a bright patch on her chest just above the beads. I was thinking that was the mirror although that's just a guess.
KDM was the first thing to cross my mind. Well, actually it was "Edward Said's Kingdom Death", but he'd probably have issues with the entire hobby.
It's a great monster and a nice sculpt, but it doesn't appeal to me, really. I was hoping for some cavalry or more monsters but this is not a case of peanut butter in my chocolate.
LMAO. Seriously, you just made my afternoon. Some of the ignorant BS being thrown around by fans, and wince-worthy PR... just feels like it is (or should be) from another century. There are some very nice mini designs, enough that against my better judgement (or distaste towards the above) I'm probably going to be picking this up, but yeah. Like I said, awesome.
I thought the extra eyes, the extra arms, the heads would have gotten the nod. Good thing there will be lots of monsters anyways. I'm hoping for another dragon and more oni.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I thought the extra eyes, the extra arms, the heads would have gotten the nod. Good thing there will be lots of monsters anyways. I'm hoping for another dragon and more oni.
Me too, I guess we'll see one more dragon so that there is one for every season but I doubt there will be more oni.
LMAO. Seriously, you just made my afternoon. Some of the ignorant BS being thrown around by fans, and wince-worthy PR... just feels like it is (or should be) from another century. There are some very nice mini designs, enough that against my better judgement (or distaste towards the above) I'm probably going to be picking this up, but yeah. Like I said, awesome.
Thanks!
I haven't seen too many ignorant comments here. Did I miss something or do you mean on Kickstarter or another site?
JohnHwangDD wrote: I thought the extra eyes, the extra arms, the heads would have gotten the nod. Good thing there will be lots of monsters anyways. I'm hoping for another dragon and more oni.
They did get the nod, in that they reminded me of Kingdom Death. But as a monster...the Jorogumo looks too much like a lady riding a giant flea to strike any real fear into my heart. Sure, it wins creepy points for the extra arms and faces, but there is no menace I can find in the pose or general aspect of the monster. That's why I said it doesn't do it for me.
To be fair, a lot of the non-oni monsters in this kickstarter do nothing for me. Too many of them look like homages to Japanese horror films rather than mythological monsters. For example, from my memory of Kwaidan the Jikininki is supposed to be some large, amorphous shape, but the miniature could easily fit into any zombie game. The koneko and kitsune, and probably the tengu when they drop, just bore me. I'd love to see more nonanthropomorphic creatures, like kirin and Heike crabs, as well as more oni and more dragons.
Ian Sturrock wrote: I'd love to see a critical analysis of the finished game from an Orientalism perspective... I might even have to write one.
I'm sure it would be scathing and enlightening. I'm also sure I'd still buy the game. It's not like I don't level harsher criticisms at myself every time I step out of a hobby store with a full bag.
Are the minis with clearly caucasian features more or less problematic than, say, the Koi Clan? I haven't kept up with the field.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I may be a bad person deep down, but I would really appreciate a link to that particular trainwreck.
Can't remember where, but probably my favorite bit was someone claiming that there's nothing problematic about a bunch of white guys using someone's mythology and religion, in caricatured shorthand, for a game. In fact, in demonstrating this "idealized" (I think was the word) view of their (Japanese) view of themselves, these white guys were honoring the culture by speaking for them.
... Or something like that, which totally got the point .
Well, Eric Lang is African-American, as far as I know. So at least one of the "bunch of white guys"... isn't. Not that that necessarily excuses anything, though it does perhaps confuse things.
I backed the game, incidentally, while recognising that some aspects of it are, well, at least as problematic as the rest of the hobby. For me the most blatant bit of Orientalism in there is that, unlike its "spiritual ancestor", Blood Rage, this game uses monstrous or animalistic clans as the main characters, alongside some more human-looking clans (including the inevitable "exotic babe clan"...), despite those main characters being clearly based on historical, rather than mythic, professions. So ya know... if you're doing a game about mythic Vikings, they get to be human, because they're European. Not so much those Easterners. Wow.
But I'm sure I will find loads more problematic stuff on receiving the package. Pity I can't persuade my bosses to pay for it as a research expense, but they're iffy about putting crowdfunding through the books.
So what are we supposed to be mad about now? That a fantasy game has monsters based on mythology? Or is it because it's specifically set in mythic Japan?Did I miss the outrage machine getting fired up for Mythic Battles: Pantheon? What about Bushido... are we not allowed to like that too? Given how much Japan appropriates Western culture and religious iconography in various games, anime, etc, are the same people up in arms over that?
Wargaming has some retrograde issues, but I'm not sure I buy into the argument that, say, using a mummy in a game when you arent Egyptian is wrong (and yeah, I'm aware there are other types of mumies)
Bossk, yeah, it's not really outrage, just, well, pointing out problems. And, unless I'm mistaken, no one practices, uh, IDK even what to call them, Greek(?) pantheism or Egyptian, whatever (correct me if I'm wrong...). It's a lot closer to if you had a game featuring christian saints duking it out while a bunch of bros snarked at each other in a gameplay video.
And yeah, I don't really think it's awesome that Japan has made caricatures of christianity, but that doesn't come with the same historical power dynamic. The old punching down vs. punching up difference.
"And then, I realised it's not the only figure that makes me feel this way... Take the Dragonfly clan, for example. It doesn't convey the grace of a dragonfly, but more of a savage vibe, with beaks and a lot of feathers... As if it was designed originally as a Raven/Tengu clan. Obviously, something's not right. Their symbol was different, too " https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1742572/discrepancy-between-clan-names-and-their-actual-sc
I guess it depends on how fast and loose people can be with other people's cultures:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
I couldn't find the Texas newscaster who tells the news in a ten-gallon hat with cacti in the background, so this will have to do:
There's a fair few neo-pagans whose spiritual practice is influenced by ancient Greek or Egyptian religion, or what we know of it. But yeah, that's not really the same as taking a religion that has a continuous tradition of practice, and turning that into a game.
Still, for me, the two key points are:
1) There's not so much outrage, as, a desire to explore the various issues that are thrown up by this kind of artistic creation. There are probably best-practice and worst-practice ways to do it; if we want to be able to make games and other forms of art that are inspired by other cultures, we should, at the very least, be thinking about this stuff, and discussing it. I do get that some will react in a "keep your politics out of my games" kind of way. That's also understandable, and there might be an argument for making a new thread if we do want to discuss this in huge detail. (I probably don't, ideally, because I have 2 weeks to finish my PhD...I should probably soft-ban myself from Dakka again instead.)
2) If we want games and their associated art to be taken seriously, as culture and as art forms -- this kind of discussion is a key part of that. We have to accept that if it's serious art, it is open to serious discussion, including critical analysis, and that some of that analysis will include consideration of the problematic implications of some design decisions. None of that means that we are evil for enjoying the game, or that CMON and the team are evil for making it. Quite the contrary -- making art is good, right? Especially art that advances the form to such an extent that people start discussing it in detail?
Ian, yeah, I'm currently studying comics, and I feel like the field's maybe 10-20 years ahead of gaming, regarding people being able to treat it like an expressive form rather than just a useful low art lens for looking at the zeitgeist... But, there's definitely that question of what does actually make its way out of low art. It certainly isn't CMON making that push, so I guess it's mostly in Lang's hands for design and McVey's for art direction.
Ian Sturrock wrote: Well, Eric Lang is African-American, as far as I know. So at least one of the "bunch of white guys"... isn't. Not that that necessarily excuses anything, though it does perhaps confuse things.
I backed the game, incidentally, while recognising that some aspects of it are, well, at least as problematic as the rest of the hobby. For me the most blatant bit of Orientalism in there is that, unlike its "spiritual ancestor", Blood Rage, this game uses monstrous or animalistic clans as the main characters, alongside some more human-looking clans (including the inevitable "exotic babe clan"...), despite those main characters being clearly based on historical, rather than mythic, professions. So ya know... if you're doing a game about mythic Vikings, they get to be human, because they're European. Not so much those Easterners. Wow.
That is one of the things that bugs me the most in the miniatures hobby. At one point it seemed like there were more miniatures being made of East Asian orcs than of East Asian people. The same thing seems to happen to Native Americans (lizardmen and such). In both cases, WGF is the only company I am aware of that ever made plastics representing them, and look what happened to them.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I may be a bad person deep down, but I would really appreciate a link to that particular trainwreck.
Can't remember where, but probably my favorite bit was someone claiming that there's nothing problematic about a bunch of white guys using someone's mythology and religion, in caricatured shorthand, for a game. In fact, in demonstrating this "idealized" (I think was the word) view of their (Japanese) view of themselves, these white guys were honoring the culture by speaking for them.
... Or something like that, which totally got the point .
I am teaching the next generation of game artists, and I like to hope that part of what I teach them is to be able to analyse games as serious art forms... but it will take them a while to get really influential in the industry, I guess.
Bob, it's just kinda' embarrassingly dated in sensibility. Like, probably woulda' been fine even in the late 90's, but that was 20 years ago. Now, I feel it's just a thing because, well, gaming culture as a whole has been pretty slow to adapt to the times.
So far, the "have your army commit suicide for points" is about the least-tasteful thing I've seen mechanically, but the chinese force that you can of course mash in to the japanese setting is pretty bad.
Ian, IDK, games are moving faster and faster these days (esp. in the more modest/contained board game side), maybe you'll have influence faster than you're thinking! So, would you be aiming to teach academics, practice, or both?
There used to be a post on the BGG Facebook page that was damn near full on WW3.
A Korean guy made a post that basically boiled down to anyone backing this is racist and childish because of the things Japan has done to Korea over the centuries.
Coupled with the "Rising Sun" name and imagery that they used for the game clearly meant psychological harm to anyone that wasn't white or from North America.
After a few rage inducing retorts, I left the group.
Actually knowing about WWII in the pacific, it's kinda' like a swastika in terms of how it was used... it hasn't AFAIK been adopted by modern bigots so doesn't have the same social connotation, but it's pretty closely linked with a particularly nasty social/military period. Not exactly the same, but within the same social ballpark, or at least sport, as casually throwing around a swastika in something that wasn't about Germany during WWII.
edit: to clarify, I don't get up in arms about it, but totally see how people whose countries suffered from them could be upset with its casual use.
That Korean dude who melted down on BGG wasn't entirely wrong, though. The game is exceedingly sterotypical and treads awfully close to casual racism. The Rising Sun icon is fairly likened to a Japanese swastika. The fact that most Westerners are ignorant of this doesn't really help things.
As for the maturing of the medium, I would completely agree that boardgames are well behind the curve. Comics crossed that threshold with serious works like Maus that happened to use the comics medium, not unlike how anime crossed with things like Grave of the Fireflies - that was all 20+ years ago. Even videogames, with things like Evolve and SimCity / SimEarth.
Tabletop gaming seems to have had nothing, aside from a move from well-produced American games Axis & Allies to cheap eurotrash like Settlers. A different sort of game, but still fundamentally childish and failing to say much of anything about the world we live in. I wonder why that is.
JohnHwangDD wrote: That Korean dude who melted down on BGG wasn't entirely wrong, though. The game is exceedingly sterotypical and treads awfully close to casual racism. The Rising Sun icon is fairly likened to a Japanese swastika. The fact that most Westerners are ignorant of this doesn't really help things.
The Rising Sun symbol is also used by Japanese far right groups, so it is completely fair to equate it as equivalent to the Nazi swastika and that is how it is perceived in much of Asia. Trying to argue to a Korean that it isn't really is an example of sanctimonious "whitesplaining".
The "Dynasty Invasion" expansion content suffers from Orientalism in mashing pretty obviously Chinese style content into a Japanese setting as if Asian cultures could be reduced to a generic mishmash. At least two of those figures/artwork (from my quick cursory glance) were direct copies of historical Chinese figures (specifically Guan Yu and Chiang Fei from the Three Kingdoms). Do a game about China or fantasy China rather than try to shoehorn China into Japan.
JohnHwangDD wrote: That Korean dude who melted down on BGG wasn't entirely wrong, though. The game is exceedingly sterotypical and treads awfully close to casual racism. The Rising Sun icon is fairly likened to a Japanese swastika. The fact that most Westerners are ignorant of this doesn't really help things.
The Rising Sun symbol is also used by Japanese far right groups, so it is completely fair to equate it as equivalent to the Nazi swastika and that is how it is perceived in much of Asia. Trying to argue to a Korean that it isn't really is an example of sanctimonious "whitesplaining".
The "Dynasty Invasion" expansion content suffers from Orientalism in mashing pretty obviously Chinese style content into a Japanese setting as if Asian cultures could be reduced to a generic mishmash. At least two of those figures/artwork (from my quick cursory glance) were direct copies of historical Chinese figures (specifically Guan Yu and Chiang Fei from the Three Kingdoms). Do a game about China or fantasy China rather than try to shoehorn China into Japan.
The Dynasty Invasion actually makes me want to get the game because I am Chinese-American and like Chinese characters over samurai lol. The sculpts are sweet.
After spending 9 years in Japan, I concur about the rising sun symbol being used by those right wing groups. But the game doesn't feature it in the same nationalistic way. In any event the hobby is, from my experience, a mostly white middle class hobby and romanticized and stereotyped versions of the East can't be avoided. I'm just happy there's enough interest in Asian culture to get a game and they didn't make a white guy save Japan or China. The art and figures are amazing looking...
As an asian, living in an asian country that was conquered by Japan during WW2 and suffered under it as well, I don't really see any issues with the game or the Rising Sun name. Only people with really thin skins would.
I see the issue as one of individual reaction. Some people may not object personally. Great. But if someone (like that Korean) chooses to take offense at the Rising Sun symbol, there are valid enough RL reasons why and it's a bit patronizing to try and tell him he should not be offended. For all we know, his family might have suffered horribly in WWII or been harassed by Japanese far right groups if in Japan. His reaction is a valid personal reaction.
Iracundus wrote: I see the issue as one of individual reaction. Some people may not object personally. Great. But if someone (like that Korean) chooses to take offense at the Rising Sun symbol, there are valid enough RL reasons why and it's a bit patronizing to try and tell him he should not be offended. For all we know, his family might have suffered horribly in WWII or been harassed by Japanese far right groups if in Japan. His reaction is a valid personal reaction.
I see no reason to care about an individual personal reaction or why people should assume businesses should care if one person gets offended.
It's also a bit patronizing to tell someone else whose country also suffered under the Japanese occupation that it's patronizing to tell another one who suffered as well not to complain about the past isn't it? Do you have some secret chart of who suffered more? Are you assuming my family didn't suffer in WW2 as well? I mean, you're making a lot of assumptions here
Ian, IDK, games are moving faster and faster these days (esp. in the more modest/contained board game side), maybe you'll have influence faster than you're thinking! So, would you be aiming to teach academics, practice, or both?
Oh, I would say that of the 300 or so students I teach at the moment, around five or six might want to become academics. The rest will mostly go straight into an animation, VFX, or games studio as digital artists. We have a really good rep for taking three years to turn promising artists into industry-standard professionals... without blowing my own trumpet *too* much, I think it could be argued that we're the best games art university in the world, and in the top five or so for 3D animation, and top ten for 2D animation and VFX. So it's very enjoyable and gratifying to know that my alumni will go on to win Oscars and work as lead artists on AAA games and such, within a few years, but it does kind of mean that a lot of them have a love-hate relationship with the theory side, which is what I mainly teach! There is a tendency to feel like all that essay-writing is preventing them from doing the art that they really want to be doing RIGHT NOW. But I have absolutely seen them, every year, become better artists through an engagement with the theory. So it's well worthwhile.
Back on topic... I can totally see the appeal of "let's do a game about samurai, samurai are cool!" Even if it's not the 80s any more. I do think that the two (is it two?) extra, invading clans are the natural place to add in Chinese culture -- slightly better than shoe-horning them into Japan -- but, honestly, it still seems pretty lazy and unnecessary. It's kinda like if you had a game based firmly on Arthurian mythology, but you really loved Croatia and so felt like you had to add a Croatian faction.
Actually that's how the word kamikaze came around in feudal Japan, when a massive tornado destroyed the fleets of the 1st and 2nd invasion. This portrayal of history occupies a fairly large space in the Osaka castle IIRC
So yeah, considering they spawned the word gods wind by itself and still occupies a significant space in the history section in Osaka castle, I'd say it comes up fairly often. Unless maybe you're japanese and you know better?
Have to say this discussion about stereotyping and Orientalism is super interesting. Also polite and non-kneejerk (that one "outrage" guy aside) discussion is always appreciated. This thread made my day better!
Wasn't that a Mongol invasion with some Chinese forces fighting alongside it?
Anyway -- part of the difficulty here is that "legendary feudal Japan" doesn't mean a whole lot. I mean we probably don't want gunpowder, right? For the same reason that D&D probably doesn't, most of the time.
So, I'm not sure that history should be the main guide. I mean the design decisions so far taken definitely seem to include leaving out Buddhism entirely (presumably it's seen as more offensive to have mystical Buddhist martial arts badasses than to have Shinto mythological creatures...), and leaving out the Mongol invasions or recasting them as "legendary China" invasions so as to leave out gunpowder. So we are quite far from actual feudal Japan, and quite heavily in to mythology -- which I am more interested in anyway, personally. But the decision to go for a purely Shinto / mythological approach then makes the "but add China" part seem a bit more of an easy way to get a bit of extra cash, and a bit less of a fully rounded addition to the game.
Which is one reason I backed for the main game and not the expansion, despite the minis in the expansion being absolutely gorgeous... Although I will admit that another reason is that I'm unlikely to ever want to play this with more than 5 players.
Depends if you consider the Yuan Dynasty not a Chinese dynasty. The Yuan Dynasty was set up several years prior to the first invasion and was basically after Kublai successfully subjugated most of China.
I'm just pointing out that the Invasion expansion does have some historical basis and considering the fact that the japanese at the time believed it was divine intervention that saved Japan those 2 times, it's perfectly appropriate for this game which is ironically about deities intervening in mortal affairs again. And also war.
Iracundus wrote: I see the issue as one of individual reaction. Some people may not object personally. Great. But if someone (like that Korean) chooses to take offense at the Rising Sun symbol, there are valid enough RL reasons why and it's a bit patronizing to try and tell him he should not be offended. For all we know, his family might have suffered horribly in WWII or been harassed by Japanese far right groups if in Japan. His reaction is a valid personal reaction.
I see no reason to care about an individual personal reaction or why people should assume businesses should care if one person gets offended.
Individuals are customers. If enough individuals get offended, businesses lose potential income. If that individual does not buy and then his friends or gaming group also do not buy then that adds up to more lost income. Sure, you cannot please everyone but displease enough and it will affect the bottom line.
It's also a bit patronizing to tell someone else whose country also suffered under the Japanese occupation that it's patronizing to tell another one who suffered as well not to complain about the past isn't it? Do you have some secret chart of who suffered more? Are you assuming my family didn't suffer in WW2 as well? I mean, you're making a lot of assumptions here
Not in the least. If you are not offended, great. If you are, well you can be that too. I don't have to make any assumptions because it doesn't matter to me what your family background is or is not, or what you feel or do not feel. Whatever you feel is your own reaction and that is your right. What you do not get to do however is presume to dictate that someone else's reaction is somehow not legitimate or that they should just "get over it". If that Korean is offended, that is his legitimate personal reaction and no one has the right to say he is in the wrong, especially given the historical reasons. The issue is up to the individual.
Am I offended by this Rising Sun game? No. Can I see how others might be? Yes.
So far, it's one guy complaining about the title. I say CMON can safely ignore the thin-skinned fool.
So, he has the legitimate personal reaction to say the title is wrong but no one has reasons for legitimate personal reaction to say he's wrong?
Is this how your logic works?
A minority opinion is not wrong simply by being in the minority.
As his own personal reaction, no one can say he is wrong for feeling the way he does and taking offence. People can have their own reactions that differ but you cannot argue that other people taking offence or being insulted is "wrong". It is no different from trying to argue that someone of Jewish background is wrong for taking offence at a game showing symbols of WWII Germany.
He can choose to express or advocate his opinion to persuade others or vote with his wallet by not supporting games he finds offensive. That too is his right.
Instead of trying to dictate how others should feel or react, it would be better move on to discuss the merits or lack thereof of the game in question.
I'd say the business can safely ignore this one guy considering that even for a minority opinion, he's a very minor one. Secondly, the company's making what? 3 mill right now on KS indicates his concerns aren't huge.
Not all feelings are valid and not all personal reactions are right. This guy's just being thin-skinned
Automatically Appended Next Post: I don't think anyone said he had to support the game. Similarly, no has to support his opinion if they find it stupid.
Not all feelings are valid and not all personal reactions are right. This guy's just being thin-skinned
Your feeling about that guy is not valid and wrong. You are being thin-skinned about tolerating other differing opinions. The same "logic" you use can just as easily be used to rule your statements invalid.
His feelings are valid even if they are not your own. You cannot argue he is being thin skinned without knowing his circumstances. You are not the arbiter of other people's opinions. Nobody put you in charge. He has his opinion and right to feel offended and not support. You have your own stance. MOVE ON.
You can say that. Notice how I'm not stopping you from saying that with some BS all feelings/reasons are valid schtick. I expressed an opinion, you're welcome to disagree with it and tell me I'm wrong.
What's weirder is you're the one arguing for a third party whom you also don't know anything about but you feel magnanimous enough to defend while assuming his reasons.
Feelings are inherently subjective and based on each individual's experiences and history. They cannot be proven wrong by logic in the way that facts can be. Likewise I am not arguing that his position is "right" either.
I am arguing that his position is equally valid as those that take no offence at the Rising Sun symbol and its use in this game. People are free to have their own opinions on an issue and though others may not share that feeling, they cannot dictate that he is "wrong". That is the whole concept of "mansplaining" or "whitesplaining", and precisely why those that encounter that are offended: the concept of their range of opinion and feeling being constrained and dictated by others.
It is similar to the concept of free speech. Even though I may not share his opinion, that Korean has the right to it. Just because it is different from your own does not make him suddenly "thin-skinned" or his feelings invalid.
Again, instead of trying to dictate what others have the right to believe, why not actually talk about the game in question
You do realise the concept of free speech also allows people to criticise other speech right? There's no concept that just lets people say what they want without being criticised, much like you think 'feelings' are
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for this game, I like the minis but I'm not a huge fan of Eric or CMONs game balance
Criticizing is different from trying to invalidate or shut down their opinion. Trying to shut down someone else's free speech is not in itself protected as a form of free speech. "The right to swing my arms in any direction ends where your nose begins."
When it comes to taking offence, it is the offended party that ultimately decides whether they find something offensive, not others deciding for them. Again this ties into the whole concept of ""whitesplaining", with others telling/dictating to minorities whether they have the right to be offended by epithets or actions committed against them.
As for the game, its stereotyped fantasy Japan comes off as something more befitting the era of the 1980's, when it seemed much of the Western world had a mixture of fear and fascination with all things Japanese. I.e. it seems to give off anime fan vibes
I honestly don't understand what issue people are having with the mythological aspects of this game. The politics, I can understand, but Japan is a country with a rich spiritual and animist tradition, and an artistic and literary culture that has depicted and interpreted these traditions for a few 1000 years. If there's anything to take issue with, it could only be about whether or not the art in this game is true to the Japanese traditions, which doesnt seem to be what the conversation is about. And in regards to Orientalism... well i suppose they could have designed the game to be generic and use little green army men, but where's the fun in that? They chose some themes that are interesting, though perhaps not always well executed (hummingbird clan imho), and decided to throw some gods in there too. I suppose the gods could just have been different coloured erasers to set them apart from the green army men, but again, where's the fun in that? I actually support this type of game from an educational point of view. Not every interpretation may be accurate, but it gives the uninitiated a starting point they might not otherwise have when learning about the traditions of other cultures. And for context my wife is Korean and i studied East Asian history and religion in my undergrad.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Bob, it's just kinda' embarrassingly dated in sensibility. Like, probably woulda' been fine even in the late 90's, but that was 20 years ago. Now, I feel it's just a thing because, well, gaming culture as a whole has been pretty slow to adapt to the times.
So far, the "have your army commit suicide for points" is about the least-tasteful thing I've seen mechanically
Oof, I'd missed that, and would have to agree. Wargaming can be pretty retrograde, it's been a white boys club for most of its modern inception. It's just hard to separate the signal from noise at times. Probably would have been better to just set it in a fictional Japanese inspired land. As JohnH WangDD noted, the clan' seemed to somewhat track w Rokugan clans anyways.
To be fair, gaining points by having your units deliberately die, is a major game mechanic in Blood Rage too. It's one of the game design ways to make that game stand out from thematic (aka Ameritrash) games, and be a Euro-thematic hybrid, I think. In that, losing a bunch of your units early on, does not have to systematically disadvantage you for the rest of the game.
I do get that transferring that mechanic from representing "berserk charge against overwhelming odds, for honour" to "ritual suicide, for duty" is significant and potentially problematic, mind. For me it loses a lot of the nuance of what (little) I know of seppuku. There are lots of reasons for deciding that seppuku is the right thing to do, historically... I don't think any of them are "let's bank some power points with the river kami" or something.
Interesting stuff, Ian. And yeah, I totally remember being a dumb little impatient undergrad. Well, I hope some learn some useful stuff, even if it's against their will.
Regarding the question of chinese influence in Japan, I don't believe any country got a substantial foothold in Japan between well before feudalism until the American occupation. A game about the actual foundation of Japanese society, dealing with Korean and Chinese influences and native ethnically Japanese groups would be a kinda' ballsy game, but since it exists well before basically anything popularly associated with Japan, you'd probably never see it outside some little indie game made by history buffs.
Sining wrote: I'd say the business can safely ignore this one guy considering that even for a minority opinion, he's a very minor one. Secondly, the company's making what? 3 mill right now on KS indicates his concerns aren't huge.
For far from the last time... popularity doesn't mean it's not got problems, it just means it's popular. Unless you're going to say that pop music and fast food are the epitome of music and cuisine, or perhaps their moral exemplars, hopefully you'll understand the flaw in the popularity argument without needing to go in to the success of various political or social movements.
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Ian Sturrock wrote: what (little) I know of seppuku. There are lots of reasons for deciding that seppuku is the right thing to do, historically... I don't think any of them are "let's bank some power points with the river kami" or something.
Nah, I think I remember that in some textbook. I'll need to dig that up
Yeah, I never really cared about that stuff, but I sure don't remember it as anything other than redeeming from utter failure. Contrary to popular belief, Japanese leaders usually wanted their troops and officials to be alive to be able to do things.
Ian Sturrock wrote: what (little) I know of seppuku. There are lots of reasons for deciding that seppuku is the right thing to do, historically... I don't think any of them are "let's bank some power points with the river kami" or something.
Nah, I think I remember that in some textbook. I'll need to dig that up
Yeah, I never really cared about that stuff, but I sure don't remember it as anything other than redeeming from utter failure. Contrary to popular belief, Japanese leaders usually wanted their troops and officials to be alive to be able to do things.
Yeah. I'm in two minds about this one, as I am about so much of the game. I do like games that attempt to capture cultural nuance and turn it into game mechanics, as a general principle.
I suspect that with something as complex and potentially fraught as ritual suicide, mechanics like this would work better in an RPG than a boardgame. But games are converging -- one of the reasons people love this kind of game is that it has almost as strong a sense of theme and place as a good RPG, and almost as good minis as a good tabletop wargame, yet still plays in an hour or two like a good Euro. It's just... I'm not sure "almost as good" is good enough for this.
I guess what doesn't work for me, from what we know so far of the mechanics, is that I think of seppuku as being an attempt to maintain personal honour. I'm not sure that it should give a mechanical benefit to the *army* that the suiciding warrior belonged to. Again, in an RPG, this kind of thing could work incredibly well, and potentially quite sensitively -- you use the seppuku as a way to get a sense of closure for your character who attempted a great deed on behalf of his lord, and failed. You ensure that his family maintains its honour. Maybe this allows you to play his son as your next character. Etc.
Anyway -- I'm not Japanese, and I'm by no means an expert on this stuff (though I am fascinated by it!).
I do think that the two (is it two?) extra, invading clans are the natural place to add in Chinese culture -- slightly better than shoe-horning them into Japan -- but, honestly, it still seems pretty lazy and unnecessary. It's kinda like if you had a game based firmly on Arthurian mythology, but you really loved Croatia and so felt like you had to add a Croatian faction.
That would be awesome, though!
Full disclosure: I take a rather Pinkberry view of mythology-based fantasy rather than a Haagen Dazs view; throw it all in and mix it together. I probably would have been interested in Blood Rage if it had more Greek monsters or something.
As for mashing all Asian cultures together...Is that just an issue because Rising Sun is set in Japan rather than an entirely fabricated land? Or would it be considered problematic for other reasons?
For example, I have seen that criticism levelled at The Initiate Brother, even though it is set in the kingdom of Wa, not a real place. (The book uses the intrigue and courtliness of Imperial Japan set against the history and scale of China during a not-Mongol invasion.) Is that worse than the kinds of generic European civilizations common in most fantasy? Why?
Pretty much impossible to come up with a definite answer to this stuff in a forum post about a setting I don't know. I do have half a mind to do a detailed close reading of Rising Sun in a year, though -- I'll post a link to it in the thread when I get it done.
Yeah... completely depends. It's probably basically guaranteed to end up with something orientalist but less-offensively so since there's artistic liberties with a fully fictional setting.
Sining wrote: So far, it's one guy complaining about the title. I say CMON can safely ignore the thin-skinned fool.
I'll say this - he's allowed to be offended for any number of reasons, and given the historical fact of the number of people they imprisoned, tortured, mutilated, raped, and murdered, it's likely completely justified.
It is exceedingly uncool of you to call him a "thin-skinned fool." I rather doubt you'd be so kind a about people who might have raped & tortured your grandmother to death - something that actually happened to quite a number of Korean women during WW2.
No reply necessary, though. I don't feel you're the sort of person with whom I would enjoy conversation. You see, I can safely ignore you.
Back on topic... I can totally see the appeal of "let's do a game about samurai, samurai are cool!" Even if it's not the 80s any more. I do think that the two (is it two?) extra, invading clans are the natural place to add in Chinese culture -- slightly better than shoe-horning them into Japan -- but, honestly, it still seems pretty lazy and unnecessary. It's kinda like if you had a game based firmly on Arthurian mythology, but you really loved Croatia and so felt like you had to add a Croatian faction.
I'd see it as something more akin to adding a Persian Clan to a game about Greek city-states. Or Croats to a game about the Roman Republic, or.... you get the idea. Adding factions/teams/whatever based on neighbouring states with history and influence over one another isn't unreasonable as expansion content.
It's surely not as bad as entirely transplanting your Welsh-Arthurian mythology into a Frankish setting, right?
Sining wrote: So far, it's one guy complaining about the title. I say CMON can safely ignore the thin-skinned fool.
I'll say this - he's allowed to be offended for any number of reasons, and given the historical fact of the number of people they imprisoned, tortured, mutilated, raped, and murdered, it's likely completely justified.
It is exceedingly uncool of you to call him a "thin-skinned fool." I rather doubt you'd be so kind a about people who might have raped & tortured your grandmother to death - something that actually happened to quite a number of Korean women during WW2.
No reply necessary, though. I don't feel you're the sort of person with whom I would enjoy conversation. You see, I can safely ignore you.
And you think Singaporean women were treated any better? It's not just Korea that suffered during WW2
To put it into context, this game isn't by the Japanese and the name isn't by anyone who was associated with WW2. I don't see a point in getting offended when americans make a game that is based on a land historically called the Land of the Rising Sun and calling it Rising Sun. Talk about pointless outrage.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
spiralingcadaver wrote: Interesting stuff, Ian. And yeah, I totally remember being a dumb little impatient undergrad. Well, I hope some learn some useful stuff, even if it's against their will.
Regarding the question of chinese influence in Japan, I don't believe any country got a substantial foothold in Japan between well before feudalism until the American occupation. A game about the actual foundation of Japanese society, dealing with Korean and Chinese influences and native ethnically Japanese groups would be a kinda' ballsy game, but since it exists well before basically anything popularly associated with Japan, you'd probably never see it outside some little indie game made by history buffs.
Technically depends if you can consider the Portuguese as such? They did spread christianity to the Japanese which led to some rebellions and quite a lot of executions.
Sining wrote: I'd say the business can safely ignore this one guy considering that even for a minority opinion, he's a very minor one. Secondly, the company's making what? 3 mill right now on KS indicates his concerns aren't huge.
For far from the last time... popularity doesn't mean it's not got problems, it just means it's popular. Unless you're going to say that pop music and fast food are the epitome of music and cuisine, or perhaps their moral exemplars, hopefully you'll understand the flaw in the popularity argument without needing to go in to the success of various political or social movements.
Isn't that why I said he's a minor outlier? Nothing's perfect but that doesn't mean you have to listen to every offended person.
As a curiosity, I've been very wary of anything related to CMON and Studio McVey ever since the Sedition Wars debacle a while back. People say things have gotten better, but "preassembled plastic" doesn't really inspire comfort.
Is there a good source of how good the details for these miniatures will be? I see people arecomparing it to Blood Rage, but I can't find anything reliable aside from renders and studio paintjobs on resin.
And, while CMON miniatures are the best boardgame miniatures I've seen, they're still boardgame miniatures.. You're not going to have enough time to paint all the KS miniatures to display or otherwise beyond advanced tabletop (and the details won't be as good as metal or resin), so, might as well wait for retail.
I *hate* pre-assembled boardgame plastic because of the mold lines. That's another reason to ask yourself if you really want to back a miniatures boardgame!
Absolutionis, here's some of my painted big monsters from Blood Rage. I am not showing them here for the paint job (which is OK, but not amazing!) but just to show the level of detail, which I certainly found acceptable.
Spoiler:
Frost Giant
Mountain Giant -- I really enjoyed finding lots of different ways to do shades of leathery brown on this one.
Absolutionis wrote: As a curiosity, I've been very wary of anything related to CMON and Studio McVey ever since the Sedition Wars debacle a while back.
People say things have gotten better, but "preassembled plastic" doesn't really inspire comfort.
Is there a good source of how good the details for these miniatures will be? I see people arecomparing it to Blood Rage, but I can't find anything reliable aside from renders and studio paintjobs on resin.
Sedition Wars was a failed attempt to make a hobbyist miniatures boardgame. The hobbyist part failed, because the miniatures were all monopose and cast in an awful material that sucked to assemble, so there wasn't much visual variety in the models themselves, exacerbated by having even more of duplicates, rather than alternate sculpts or mix-and-match designs. The boardgame part failed in game itself was terribly designed as an overcomplicated mess without any real consideration toward balance and replayability; worse, the revised rulebook incorporated zero backer input to fix things. And the boards themselves were shipped early & warped.
Since that time, I see things like Blood Rage and observe that CMoN has gotten much better at miniatures design, specifically designing 1-piece models for the production and assembly process that they will use. The renders we see in the KS are very, very close to the final product we receive - no bait & switches like in Sedition Wars. They have a better rules team, instead of the hack that McVey used, and are previewing rules for feedback and comment. And CMoN allows $1 pledges and Late Backer option. Unlike Sedition Wars, the additional information and time means people can clearly evaluate the game itself before committing to a full pledge.
The details will be comparable to The Others and Blood Rage, both games designed and developed by the same team that is working on Rising Sun. I've seen them, and they look pretty good for $1 models.
Absolutionis wrote: As a curiosity, I've been very wary of anything related to CMON and Studio McVey ever since the Sedition Wars debacle a while back. People say things have gotten better, but "preassembled plastic" doesn't really inspire comfort.
Is there a good source of how good the details for these miniatures will be? I see people arecomparing it to Blood Rage, but I can't find anything reliable aside from renders and studio paintjobs on resin.
The single piece castings are fine.. and a lot of the pre-assembled are okay.. Except.. The Others.. that was absolute pants. Some of the castings were bad and some of the assembly was beyond bad.. with massive gaps, poorly clipped components, and more flash than I've seen on CMON stuff in a while.
I'm not throwing any money at them until I get Massive Darkness and can assure myself that it was a fluke.
EDIT: Oh.. another consideration outside of miniatures.. a lot of the CMON stuff has felt same-y. Maybe the objective is different or turn sequence is different but the overall experience feels like managing a crapload of tiny cards and rolling dice with strange symbols then trying to remember what this or that does.. This isn't really just CMON.. I'm just getting into my Monolith Conan so some of that is rubbing off too.. but it's still.. a lot of these designers must be on a message board swapping design philosophy or something.
MLaw wrote: EDIT: Oh.. another consideration outside of miniatures.. a lot of the CMON stuff has felt same-y. Maybe the objective is different or turn sequence is different but the overall experience feels like managing a crapload of tiny cards and rolling dice with strange symbols then trying to remember what this or that does.. This isn't really just CMON.. I'm just getting into my Monolith Conan so some of that is rubbing off too.. but it's still.. a lot of these designers must be on a message board swapping design philosophy or something.
Are you playing more than just Ameritrash?
At one extreme, CMON released to retail The Grizzled, a cooperative card game that plays nothing like, say, Zombicide or Massive Darkness. CMON has released two hybrid games, Blood Rage and Rising Sun, and I'd say that these games play very differently than, say, Rise of Moloch. OTOH, If you're just looking at the miniature-laden games, most of these are Ameritrash, since AT suits the KS "mini-expansion" model of SG's much better than Eurogames.
Speaking of, it's too bad about CMoN's Dogs of War - elegant game which suffered badly from CMoN's overproduction of schlocky stuff that made the game look cheaper than it should have.
MLaw wrote: EDIT: Oh.. another consideration outside of miniatures.. a lot of the CMON stuff has felt same-y. Maybe the objective is different or turn sequence is different but the overall experience feels like managing a crapload of tiny cards and rolling dice with strange symbols then trying to remember what this or that does.. This isn't really just CMON.. I'm just getting into my Monolith Conan so some of that is rubbing off too.. but it's still.. a lot of these designers must be on a message board swapping design philosophy or something.
Are you playing more than just Ameritrash?
At one extreme, CMON released to retail The Grizzled, a cooperative card game that plays nothing like, say, Zombicide or Massive Darkness. CMON has released two hybrid games, Blood Rage and Rising Sun, and I'd say that these games play very differently than, say, Rise of Moloch. OTOH, If you're just looking at the miniature-laden games, most of these are Ameritrash, since AT suits the KS "mini-expansion" model of SG's much better than Eurogames.
Not a fan of that label but I typically buy into a boardgame for the miniatures. That said, I've played enough classics (all the family stuff, RISK, monopoly, Stratego, etc),plus Settlers, Indigo, the GoT boardgame, and.. hm.. names of others are escaping me at the moment but when I was in college we had a boardgame club.. so lots of rotation not a lot of retention...
These days I am mostly looking for fast, light, beat-em-up games that are genre heavy. I'm not a board game person per se.. and honestly would ditch all of that in favor of tabletop gaming or map and miniature rpg/rpg-lite experiences. Resource management, zone control, and those types of things (again, I'm not a boardgame fanatic so I am probably not using the "correct" terminology) are things that I would look for in extreme moderation. To me, a lot of CMON and other "Ameritrash" (though Monolith is European and I think HINT is Polish or something.. and Imperial Assault.. not sure where FF is out of but I thought they were Euro.. and all kinda same-y). Anyway.. those types of things seem like they need to pick a lane. They want you to get into the action but also throw lots of weird "just because" mechanics and cards and counters and crap that I have started to loathe. Even just cutting down on the cards and stuff in favor of a character sheet maybe (HQ anyone?) or making the cards a bit larger so my large hands and bad eyes are not tested every time I want to roll some dice with my kids.
That said.. I have no clue if the Rising Sun mechanics are similar to what I'm describing.. I was mostly responding to a question/point.. I am fairly sure Massive Darkness (which I am using as a barometer for CMON going forward) is going to be a variation of Zombicide.. if not with even more of those "wonderful" little tedious additions that I don't feel add to the experience.
If Eric Lang's track record is anything to go by, Rising Sun will be lean, elegant, strategic, tactical, combat-heavy, and quick to play. So you should be fine with it.
I don't think he's ever done any "just because" mechanics. Even Chaos in the Old World, which is kind of clunky, has pretty much perfect rules as long as you don't mind that slight bit of clunk. Blood Rage felt like a direct descendant of CitOW, but plays in less than half the time, and has more combat. I've found Blood Rage to be a real hit with everyone I've played it with.
It doesn't have any dice though. If rolling dice is vital, it's the wrong game and you should get CitOW instead.
MLaw wrote: That said.. I have no clue if the Rising Sun mechanics are similar to what I'm describing..
I am fairly sure Massive Darkness (which I am using as a barometer for CMON going forward) is going to be a variation of Zombicide.. if not with even more of those "wonderful" little tedious additions that I don't feel add to the experience.
Rising Sun draft rulebook v0.9 was released a couple(?) days ago, so you can check it for yourself. Possibly solo playtest. See the ink in the KS Update for details.
By the end of it, I wasn't feeling it for Massive Darkness. The higher minimum buy-in didn't help.
That Raijin/Fujin is my actual mouse pad. I bought it in the national museum in Tokyo. There was also miniatures of typical japanese "demon" that the souvenir shop of the museum was selling and they were in some way similar to those you can find in this kickstarter (like freaky).
As a mini connoisseur and japan fan I could not resist, even if almost bankrupted lol.
I backed it yesterday and I am pretty glad with it.
Reluxor, did the models fit with tabletop miniatures?
Anyway, the box looks nice. If it's sturdy enough, I can use it to store all kinds of unassembled miniatures. Useful. Unfortunately, the next stretch goal is just a pack of cards. I can't think of any use I'd get out of gameplay components.
I only went in for a $1 pledge, I was really hoping for more, but the art style didn't do it for me. Thankfully they announced in update 37 that the next Kickstarter for them is in May Zombicide:Green Horde, the sequel to Black Plague, where infected goblins and orcs amass in huge hordes . I think I'll be dropping my cash there.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Rising Sun closed at $4.2M, and they threw in the extra cards that we would have gotten at $4.3M.
Bob, you might be able to find a no-miniatures gameplay fan on BoardGameGeek. or eBay.
That's my plan. Maybe I can trade them for more minis. Failing that, I end up using game cards as bookmarks. When this arrives, I'll finally have the motivation to read Shogun, Tales of the Otori, or Yamada Monogatari. Anyone have a recommendation on which to read first?
This was my first CMON Kickstarter since Sedition Wars. I anticipate a smoother resolution.
RANDOM NEW ZEALAND DUDE APPEARS IN RISING SUN GAME
So, it looks like Rising Sun named a KSE monster, Kotahi, based on a Wiki entry. A fake one.
"Yeah so about this thing… It was one of my online buddies from Australia that was trolling one night about three or so years ago editing Wikipedia pages, Kotahi-Manawa is my name and the ‘rage’ refers to the way I sometimes rage when we’re playing games, Tyralis contacted me on Facebook and I thought it was a pretty funny and interesting way to wake up lol, I thought it was funny how much research the devs put into the characters of this game. I actually really like the art though…
"This one will do. We'll do some proper research once all this Kickstarter craziness is over. Check some books out of the library and find out for sure what this Kotahi critter does."
What's silly is it's obviously based on the Monkey King, which already is fairly identifiable in Western hobby/ pop culture, and comments about the name were being raised during the actual campaign as soon as it was unveiled.
I'm not sure there's much of a lesson to learn? I mean, they're clearly taking some liberties with the source material regardless, and that source material is heavily mythical(ie, fictional) anyway - will anyone except the "weeehhhhahhh, cultural appropriaaaation!" crowd even care?
I mean I'm sure someone will be getting a wee talking too for not checking the article's sources because of the PR aspect, but it's not like they accidentally included some monstrous hated historical figure who ate babies or anything.
Or make a special premium pledge level in the next KS. "For $1,000 we will name a monster after you! Makes a great addition to your personal Wikipedia entry or LinkedIn profile!"
My Rising Sun box arrived. The shipping box was humongous. The core box is beautiful and sturdy. The miniatures are very good quality upon first inspection, but I haven't had time to see how sharp their ankles are or whatever. The monsters are gorgeous, although some of them have white fuzzy spots where the packaging has abraded the plastic. Overall, I am very pleased with the results.
If anyone is interested in just having the rules, I'd will sell all the nonplastic game components for $10 a price so low I can't advertise it plus shipping.
Wow, mine still hasnt shipped. Did you guys get tracking info? I checked and shipping was already paid too. Not sure if I should be getting worried or not...
They are still shipping, Bossk. No reason to panic just yet.
If you haven't already done so, sign up for Fedex and use their tracking notification. You can see if any packages are headed your way. You'll probably get notification direct from them faster than from CMON.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Wow, mine still hasnt shipped. Did you guys get tracking info? I checked and shipping was already paid too. Not sure if I should be getting worried or not...
I got an email with tracking information the day before it arrived, so kind of?
Can anyone recommend a good reference book for the history, equipment and tactics of samurai, as well as a listing of family crests/Mons?
You can always check out some of Koei's historical video game franchises for some color schemes, as they often have pretty realistic portraits of famous personages.
Or I can give you some children's sengokuzukan my kids have if you'd like Inquisitor, if they're willing to let you borrow them...
You can always check out some of Koei's historical video game franchises for some color schemes, as they often have pretty realistic portraits of famous personages.
Or I can give you some children's sengokuzukan my kids have if you'd like Inquisitor, if they're willing to let you borrow them...
I don't want to be the guy who takes books away from children. I'll check out the osprey books, though.
Some of the Rising Sun minis have the Mon sculpted on, but it shouldn't be too difficult to remove them or apply a different color. Not that I ever finish painting anything. My Brimstone minis are 100% primed and 10% painted so far...so I guess I'll need to find historical precedent for entirely monotone, primer-colored Samurai.
).
, but then I realised how difficult it will be to paint as it is 99% certain to come pre-assembled.
, in fact for board game plastic they are the new benchmark people compare models to.
See the Alliance 
.
