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Based on how sensitively they've handled RS, you just know it'd be a Tarantinoeqsue Blaxploitation fighting game.

Hawk was so badass, they made him Station Commander!

Ian, yeah, I'm currently studying comics, and I feel like the field's maybe 10-20 years ahead of gaming, regarding people being able to treat it like an expressive form rather than just a useful low art lens for looking at the zeitgeist... But, there's definitely that question of what does actually make its way out of low art. It certainly isn't CMON making that push, so I guess it's mostly in Lang's hands for design and McVey's for art direction.

Good luck on your PhD

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Well, Eric Lang is African-American, as far as I know. So at least one of the "bunch of white guys"... isn't. Not that that necessarily excuses anything, though it does perhaps confuse things.

I backed the game, incidentally, while recognising that some aspects of it are, well, at least as problematic as the rest of the hobby. For me the most blatant bit of Orientalism in there is that, unlike its "spiritual ancestor", Blood Rage, this game uses monstrous or animalistic clans as the main characters, alongside some more human-looking clans (including the inevitable "exotic babe clan"...), despite those main characters being clearly based on historical, rather than mythic, professions. So ya know... if you're doing a game about mythic Vikings, they get to be human, because they're European. Not so much those Easterners. Wow.

That is one of the things that bugs me the most in the miniatures hobby. At one point it seemed like there were more miniatures being made of East Asian orcs than of East Asian people. The same thing seems to happen to Native Americans (lizardmen and such). In both cases, WGF is the only company I am aware of that ever made plastics representing them, and look what happened to them.


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 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I may be a bad person deep down, but I would really appreciate a link to that particular trainwreck.

Can't remember where, but probably my favorite bit was someone claiming that there's nothing problematic about a bunch of white guys using someone's mythology and religion, in caricatured shorthand, for a game. In fact, in demonstrating this "idealized" (I think was the word) view of their (Japanese) view of themselves, these white guys were honoring the culture by speaking for them.

... Or something like that, which totally got the point .

Thanks. Sounds like some funstrating reading.

Thank you!

I am teaching the next generation of game artists, and I like to hope that part of what I teach them is to be able to analyse games as serious art forms... but it will take them a while to get really influential in the industry, I guess.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Based on how sensitively they've handled RS, you just know it'd be a Tarantinoeqsue Blaxploitation fighting game.

It sounds like I'm missing something by not reading the updates and comments in favor of looking at the exciting pictures. What's CMON doing?

Hawk was so badass, they made him Station Commander!

You know it.

Bob, it's just kinda' embarrassingly dated in sensibility. Like, probably woulda' been fine even in the late 90's, but that was 20 years ago. Now, I feel it's just a thing because, well, gaming culture as a whole has been pretty slow to adapt to the times.

So far, the "have your army commit suicide for points" is about the least-tasteful thing I've seen mechanically, but the chinese force that you can of course mash in to the japanese setting is pretty bad.


Ian, IDK, games are moving faster and faster these days (esp. in the more modest/contained board game side), maybe you'll have influence faster than you're thinking! So, would you be aiming to teach academics, practice, or both?

There used to be a post on the BGG Facebook page that was damn near full on WW3.

A Korean guy made a post that basically boiled down to anyone backing this is racist and childish because of the things Japan has done to Korea over the centuries.

Coupled with the "Rising Sun" name and imagery that they used for the game clearly meant psychological harm to anyone that wasn't white or from North America.

After a few rage inducing retorts, I left the group.

Well, it's Facebook. If you were a true BGG'er you wouldn't have joined it in the first place!

Boardgame companies are finally realizing that you don't need big-breasts on a game. Should take awhile to be accurate to source material.

ced1106 wrote:
Well, it's Facebook. If you were a true BGG'er you wouldn't have joined it in the first place!

Boardgame companies are finally realizing that you don't need big-breasts on a game. Should take awhile to be accurate to source material.

Yea, I mostly join Facebook groups for gathering info and staying up to date on happenings.

Last time I do that.

I'll stay around here since I know who I can give crap too and they won't go nutso.

Well most of the time.....

 TalonZahn wrote:
Coupled with the "Rising Sun" name and imagery

Actually knowing about WWII in the pacific, it's kinda' like a swastika in terms of how it was used... it hasn't AFAIK been adopted by modern bigots so doesn't have the same social connotation, but it's pretty closely linked with a particularly nasty social/military period. Not exactly the same, but within the same social ballpark, or at least sport, as casually throwing around a swastika in something that wasn't about Germany during WWII.

edit: to clarify, I don't get up in arms about it, but totally see how people whose countries suffered from them could be upset with its casual use.

That Korean dude who melted down on BGG wasn't entirely wrong, though. The game is exceedingly sterotypical and treads awfully close to casual racism. The Rising Sun icon is fairly likened to a Japanese swastika. The fact that most Westerners are ignorant of this doesn't really help things.

As for the maturing of the medium, I would completely agree that boardgames are well behind the curve. Comics crossed that threshold with serious works like Maus that happened to use the comics medium, not unlike how anime crossed with things like Grave of the Fireflies - that was all 20+ years ago. Even videogames, with things like Evolve and SimCity / SimEarth.

Tabletop gaming seems to have had nothing, aside from a move from well-produced American games Axis & Allies to cheap eurotrash like Settlers. A different sort of game, but still fundamentally childish and failing to say much of anything about the world we live in. I wonder why that is.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
That Korean dude who melted down on BGG wasn't entirely wrong, though. The game is exceedingly sterotypical and treads awfully close to casual racism. The Rising Sun icon is fairly likened to a Japanese swastika. The fact that most Westerners are ignorant of this doesn't really help things.

The Rising Sun symbol is also used by Japanese far right groups, so it is completely fair to equate it as equivalent to the Nazi swastika and that is how it is perceived in much of Asia. Trying to argue to a Korean that it isn't really is an example of sanctimonious "whitesplaining".

The "Dynasty Invasion" expansion content suffers from Orientalism in mashing pretty obviously Chinese style content into a Japanese setting as if Asian cultures could be reduced to a generic mishmash. At least two of those figures/artwork (from my quick cursory glance) were direct copies of historical Chinese figures (specifically Guan Yu and Chiang Fei from the Three Kingdoms). Do a game about China or fantasy China rather than try to shoehorn China into Japan.

Yeah, the Gwan Gung was immediately obvious.

Journey: Wrath of Demons was/is the Chinese game about fantasy China. Too bad the guys ran out of money. :(

I refuse to condemn the inclusion of. a Guan Yu mini in this Japanese themed game on the grounds that I really want a Guan Yu mini.

Iracundus wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
That Korean dude who melted down on BGG wasn't entirely wrong, though. The game is exceedingly sterotypical and treads awfully close to casual racism. The Rising Sun icon is fairly likened to a Japanese swastika. The fact that most Westerners are ignorant of this doesn't really help things.

The Rising Sun symbol is also used by Japanese far right groups, so it is completely fair to equate it as equivalent to the Nazi swastika and that is how it is perceived in much of Asia. Trying to argue to a Korean that it isn't really is an example of sanctimonious "whitesplaining".

The "Dynasty Invasion" expansion content suffers from Orientalism in mashing pretty obviously Chinese style content into a Japanese setting as if Asian cultures could be reduced to a generic mishmash. At least two of those figures/artwork (from my quick cursory glance) were direct copies of historical Chinese figures (specifically Guan Yu and Chiang Fei from the Three Kingdoms). Do a game about China or fantasy China rather than try to shoehorn China into Japan.

The Dynasty Invasion actually makes me want to get the game because I am Chinese-American and like Chinese characters over samurai lol. The sculpts are sweet.

After spending 9 years in Japan, I concur about the rising sun symbol being used by those right wing groups. But the game doesn't feature it in the same nationalistic way. In any event the hobby is, from my experience, a mostly white middle class hobby and romanticized and stereotyped versions of the East can't be avoided. I'm just happy there's enough interest in Asian culture to get a game and they didn't make a white guy save Japan or China. The art and figures are amazing looking...

As an asian, living in an asian country that was conquered by Japan during WW2 and suffered under it as well, I don't really see any issues with the game or the Rising Sun name. Only people with really thin skins would.

I see the issue as one of individual reaction. Some people may not object personally. Great. But if someone (like that Korean) chooses to take offense at the Rising Sun symbol, there are valid enough RL reasons why and it's a bit patronizing to try and tell him he should not be offended. For all we know, his family might have suffered horribly in WWII or been harassed by Japanese far right groups if in Japan. His reaction is a valid personal reaction.

Iracundus wrote:
I see the issue as one of individual reaction. Some people may not object personally. Great. But if someone (like that Korean) chooses to take offense at the Rising Sun symbol, there are valid enough RL reasons why and it's a bit patronizing to try and tell him he should not be offended. For all we know, his family might have suffered horribly in WWII or been harassed by Japanese far right groups if in Japan. His reaction is a valid personal reaction.

I see no reason to care about an individual personal reaction or why people should assume businesses should care if one person gets offended.

It's also a bit patronizing to tell someone else whose country also suffered under the Japanese occupation that it's patronizing to tell another one who suffered as well not to complain about the past isn't it? Do you have some secret chart of who suffered more? Are you assuming my family didn't suffer in WW2 as well? I mean, you're making a lot of assumptions here

 spiralingcadaver wrote:


Ian, IDK, games are moving faster and faster these days (esp. in the more modest/contained board game side), maybe you'll have influence faster than you're thinking! So, would you be aiming to teach academics, practice, or both?

Oh, I would say that of the 300 or so students I teach at the moment, around five or six might want to become academics. The rest will mostly go straight into an animation, VFX, or games studio as digital artists. We have a really good rep for taking three years to turn promising artists into industry-standard professionals... without blowing my own trumpet *too* much, I think it could be argued that we're the best games art university in the world, and in the top five or so for 3D animation, and top ten for 2D animation and VFX. So it's very enjoyable and gratifying to know that my alumni will go on to win Oscars and work as lead artists on AAA games and such, within a few years, but it does kind of mean that a lot of them have a love-hate relationship with the theory side, which is what I mainly teach! There is a tendency to feel like all that essay-writing is preventing them from doing the art that they really want to be doing RIGHT NOW. But I have absolutely seen them, every year, become better artists through an engagement with the theory. So it's well worthwhile.

Back on topic... I can totally see the appeal of "let's do a game about samurai, samurai are cool!" Even if it's not the 80s any more. I do think that the two (is it two?) extra, invading clans are the natural place to add in Chinese culture -- slightly better than shoe-horning them into Japan -- but, honestly, it still seems pretty lazy and unnecessary. It's kinda like if you had a game based firmly on Arthurian mythology, but you really loved Croatia and so felt like you had to add a Croatian faction.

China did invade Japan though. Twice

Yeah. It doesn't come up too often in tales of "legendary feudal Japan" though, does it?

Actually that's how the word kamikaze came around in feudal Japan, when a massive tornado destroyed the fleets of the 1st and 2nd invasion. This portrayal of history occupies a fairly large space in the Osaka castle IIRC

So yeah, considering they spawned the word gods wind by itself and still occupies a significant space in the history section in Osaka castle, I'd say it comes up fairly often. Unless maybe you're japanese and you know better?

Have to say this discussion about stereotyping and Orientalism is super interesting. Also polite and non-kneejerk (that one "outrage" guy aside) discussion is always appreciated. This thread made my day better!

Wasn't that a Mongol invasion with some Chinese forces fighting alongside it?

Anyway -- part of the difficulty here is that "legendary feudal Japan" doesn't mean a whole lot. I mean we probably don't want gunpowder, right? For the same reason that D&D probably doesn't, most of the time.

So, I'm not sure that history should be the main guide. I mean the design decisions so far taken definitely seem to include leaving out Buddhism entirely (presumably it's seen as more offensive to have mystical Buddhist martial arts badasses than to have Shinto mythological creatures...), and leaving out the Mongol invasions or recasting them as "legendary China" invasions so as to leave out gunpowder. So we are quite far from actual feudal Japan, and quite heavily in to mythology -- which I am more interested in anyway, personally. But the decision to go for a purely Shinto / mythological approach then makes the "but add China" part seem a bit more of an easy way to get a bit of extra cash, and a bit less of a fully rounded addition to the game.

Which is one reason I backed for the main game and not the expansion, despite the minis in the expansion being absolutely gorgeous... Although I will admit that another reason is that I'm unlikely to ever want to play this with more than 5 players.

Depends if you consider the Yuan Dynasty not a Chinese dynasty. The Yuan Dynasty was set up several years prior to the first invasion and was basically after Kublai successfully subjugated most of China.

I'm just pointing out that the Invasion expansion does have some historical basis and considering the fact that the japanese at the time believed it was divine intervention that saved Japan those 2 times, it's perfectly appropriate for this game which is ironically about deities intervening in mortal affairs again. And also war.

Yeah, I do get that, and I'm not saying you're wrong. It does make at least some sense to have them in.

Sining wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
I see the issue as one of individual reaction. Some people may not object personally. Great. But if someone (like that Korean) chooses to take offense at the Rising Sun symbol, there are valid enough RL reasons why and it's a bit patronizing to try and tell him he should not be offended. For all we know, his family might have suffered horribly in WWII or been harassed by Japanese far right groups if in Japan. His reaction is a valid personal reaction.

I see no reason to care about an individual personal reaction or why people should assume businesses should care if one person gets offended.

Individuals are customers. If enough individuals get offended, businesses lose potential income. If that individual does not buy and then his friends or gaming group also do not buy then that adds up to more lost income. Sure, you cannot please everyone but displease enough and it will affect the bottom line.

It's also a bit patronizing to tell someone else whose country also suffered under the Japanese occupation that it's patronizing to tell another one who suffered as well not to complain about the past isn't it? Do you have some secret chart of who suffered more? Are you assuming my family didn't suffer in WW2 as well? I mean, you're making a lot of assumptions here

Not in the least. If you are not offended, great. If you are, well you can be that too. I don't have to make any assumptions because it doesn't matter to me what your family background is or is not, or what you feel or do not feel. Whatever you feel is your own reaction and that is your right. What you do not get to do however is presume to dictate that someone else's reaction is somehow not legitimate or that they should just "get over it". If that Korean is offended, that is his legitimate personal reaction and no one has the right to say he is in the wrong, especially given the historical reasons. The issue is up to the individual.

Am I offended by this Rising Sun game? No. Can I see how others might be? Yes.

So far, it's one guy complaining about the title. I say CMON can safely ignore the thin-skinned fool.

So, he has the legitimate personal reaction to say the title is wrong but no one has reasons for legitimate personal reaction to say he's wrong?
Is this how your logic works?

A minority opinion is not wrong simply by being in the minority.

As his own personal reaction, no one can say he is wrong for feeling the way he does and taking offence. People can have their own reactions that differ but you cannot argue that other people taking offence or being insulted is "wrong". It is no different from trying to argue that someone of Jewish background is wrong for taking offence at a game showing symbols of WWII Germany.

He can choose to express or advocate his opinion to persuade others or vote with his wallet by not supporting games he finds offensive. That too is his right.

Instead of trying to dictate how others should feel or react, it would be better move on to discuss the merits or lack thereof of the game in question.

I'd say the business can safely ignore this one guy considering that even for a minority opinion, he's a very minor one. Secondly, the company's making what? 3 mill right now on KS indicates his concerns aren't huge.

Not all feelings are valid and not all personal reactions are right. This guy's just being thin-skinned


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I don't think anyone said he had to support the game. Similarly, no has to support his opinion if they find it stupid.