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 Barzam wrote:
Ooh, Amaterasu does look good. She even has the Imperial Regalia. Nice touch. Should've been a wolf, but I won't hold that against them.

Okay, I'm a bit rusty on my mythology, but I'm only seeing the Kusanagi and the serpent Orochi(?) else killed. Unless you're calling her halo the mirror and skulls the beads?

I am. There's apparently no official images of the regalia, so I'm assuming they took some liberties with their design. I'm not sure why they went with skulls for the beads though.

The beads would be magatama (those fairly common "9" shaped beads you often see in jade in magical anime and whatnot), so that's some pretty serious liberties as a bunch of multicolored skulls. And that halo definitely doesn't look like it's supposed to be a plate of polished bronze, and much more reflects, well, japanese (usually buddhist) halos...

(edit: yeah, there are no images of the relics, but there are certainly common similar artifacts, plenty enough that one could easily extrapolate the styles that would have been crafted)

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
And that halo definitely doesn't look like it's supposed to be a plate of polished bronze, and much more reflects, well, japanese (usually buddhist) halos...

There is a bright patch on her chest just above the beads. I was thinking that was the mirror although that's just a guess.

Oh, yeah, makes more sense than the halo.

Bob, what do you think of the next monster?



Almost KD-worthy, right!?

KDM was the first thing to cross my mind. Well, actually it was "Edward Said's Kingdom Death", but he'd probably have issues with the entire hobby.

It's a great monster and a nice sculpt, but it doesn't appeal to me, really. I was hoping for some cavalry or more monsters but this is not a case of peanut butter in my chocolate.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Well, actually it was "Edward Said's Kingdom Death"

LMAO. Seriously, you just made my afternoon. Some of the ignorant BS being thrown around by fans, and wince-worthy PR... just feels like it is (or should be) from another century. There are some very nice mini designs, enough that against my better judgement (or distaste towards the above) I'm probably going to be picking this up, but yeah. Like I said, awesome.

I thought the extra eyes, the extra arms, the heads would have gotten the nod. Good thing there will be lots of monsters anyways. I'm hoping for another dragon and more oni.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I thought the extra eyes, the extra arms, the heads would have gotten the nod. Good thing there will be lots of monsters anyways. I'm hoping for another dragon and more oni.

Me too, I guess we'll see one more dragon so that there is one for every season but I doubt there will be more oni.

Sort of looks like a person just riding a spider, instead of the cool spider centaur it should be?

I hope monsters with extra human limbs won`t be associated with KD:M every time they are shown...

Love the spider lady sculpt, probably 1 of 3 best ones in Rising sun, imho

I don't see KDM as I also don't see giant genitalia everywhere on the model

But... Those minis are stunning...

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Well, actually it was "Edward Said's Kingdom Death"

LMAO. Seriously, you just made my afternoon. Some of the ignorant BS being thrown around by fans, and wince-worthy PR... just feels like it is (or should be) from another century. There are some very nice mini designs, enough that against my better judgement (or distaste towards the above) I'm probably going to be picking this up, but yeah. Like I said, awesome.

Thanks!

I haven't seen too many ignorant comments here. Did I miss something or do you mean on Kickstarter or another site?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I haven't seen too many ignorant comments here. Did I miss something or do you mean on Kickstarter or another site?

On the KS and BGG. Don't remember anything that bad here...

I'd love to see a critical analysis of the finished game from an Orientalism perspective... I might even have to write one.

Yeah, this game has the Orientalism turned to 11...

I certainly hope the do an African-American-themed game next.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
I'd love to see a critical analysis of the finished game from an Orientalism perspective... I might even have to write one.

Adding some random chinese teams certainly didn't reduce that

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I thought the extra eyes, the extra arms, the heads would have gotten the nod. Good thing there will be lots of monsters anyways. I'm hoping for another dragon and more oni.

They did get the nod, in that they reminded me of Kingdom Death. But as a monster...the Jorogumo looks too much like a lady riding a giant flea to strike any real fear into my heart. Sure, it wins creepy points for the extra arms and faces, but there is no menace I can find in the pose or general aspect of the monster. That's why I said it doesn't do it for me.

To be fair, a lot of the non-oni monsters in this kickstarter do nothing for me. Too many of them look like homages to Japanese horror films rather than mythological monsters. For example, from my memory of Kwaidan the Jikininki is supposed to be some large, amorphous shape, but the miniature could easily fit into any zombie game. The koneko and kitsune, and probably the tengu when they drop, just bore me. I'd love to see more nonanthropomorphic creatures, like kirin and Heike crabs, as well as more oni and more dragons.

I'd also love to see some proper cavalry for some truly epic Moon Clan action.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
I'd love to see a critical analysis of the finished game from an Orientalism perspective... I might even have to write one.

I'm sure it would be scathing and enlightening. I'm also sure I'd still buy the game. It's not like I don't level harsher criticisms at myself every time I step out of a hobby store with a full bag.


Are the minis with clearly caucasian features more or less problematic than, say, the Koi Clan? I haven't kept up with the field.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I haven't seen too many ignorant comments here. Did I miss something or do you mean on Kickstarter or another site?

On the KS and BGG. Don't remember anything that bad here...

I may be a bad person deep down, but I would really appreciate a link to that particular trainwreck.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I may be a bad person deep down, but I would really appreciate a link to that particular trainwreck.

Can't remember where, but probably my favorite bit was someone claiming that there's nothing problematic about a bunch of white guys using someone's mythology and religion, in caricatured shorthand, for a game. In fact, in demonstrating this "idealized" (I think was the word) view of their (Japanese) view of themselves, these white guys were honoring the culture by speaking for them.

... Or something like that, which totally got the point .

Well, Eric Lang is African-American, as far as I know. So at least one of the "bunch of white guys"... isn't. Not that that necessarily excuses anything, though it does perhaps confuse things.

I backed the game, incidentally, while recognising that some aspects of it are, well, at least as problematic as the rest of the hobby. For me the most blatant bit of Orientalism in there is that, unlike its "spiritual ancestor", Blood Rage, this game uses monstrous or animalistic clans as the main characters, alongside some more human-looking clans (including the inevitable "exotic babe clan"...), despite those main characters being clearly based on historical, rather than mythic, professions. So ya know... if you're doing a game about mythic Vikings, they get to be human, because they're European. Not so much those Easterners. Wow.

But I'm sure I will find loads more problematic stuff on receiving the package. Pity I can't persuade my bosses to pay for it as a research expense, but they're iffy about putting crowdfunding through the books.

So what are we supposed to be mad about now? That a fantasy game has monsters based on mythology? Or is it because it's specifically set in mythic Japan?Did I miss the outrage machine getting fired up for Mythic Battles: Pantheon? What about Bushido... are we not allowed to like that too? Given how much Japan appropriates Western culture and religious iconography in various games, anime, etc, are the same people up in arms over that?

Wargaming has some retrograde issues, but I'm not sure I buy into the argument that, say, using a mummy in a game when you arent Egyptian is wrong (and yeah, I'm aware there are other types of mumies)

I think given pretty much everybody who is critiquing it *is also buying it*, characterising this as "up in arms" or "outrage" is not very accurate.

Bossk, yeah, it's not really outrage, just, well, pointing out problems. And, unless I'm mistaken, no one practices, uh, IDK even what to call them, Greek(?) pantheism or Egyptian, whatever (correct me if I'm wrong...). It's a lot closer to if you had a game featuring christian saints duking it out while a bunch of bros snarked at each other in a gameplay video.

And yeah, I don't really think it's awesome that Japan has made caricatures of christianity, but that doesn't come with the same historical power dynamic. The old punching down vs. punching up difference.

It's irritating when a company puts this much work into a project then flubs up some very visible details.

"It's as if a board game map of the USA had the following regions: Northwest, Midwest, East Coast, Texas, The Rust Belt, New York and Los Angeles." : https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1750502/suggested-map-revision

"And then, I realised it's not the only figure that makes me feel this way... Take the Dragonfly clan, for example. It doesn't convey the grace of a dragonfly, but more of a savage vibe, with beaks and a lot of feathers... As if it was designed originally as a Raven/Tengu clan. Obviously, something's not right. Their symbol was different, too " https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1742572/discrepancy-between-clan-names-and-their-actual-sc

I guess it depends on how fast and loose people can be with other people's cultures:

There was some notion that the clans were originally concepted along L5R lines... That's probably true. Oops.

OTOH, draft rules are finally out. Any thoughts on them?

Dang! Wouldn't mind a CMON / FFG L5R boardgame!! : https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/25931/legend-five-rings-art-war

There's a fair few neo-pagans whose spiritual practice is influenced by ancient Greek or Egyptian religion, or what we know of it. But yeah, that's not really the same as taking a religion that has a continuous tradition of practice, and turning that into a game.

Still, for me, the two key points are:

1) There's not so much outrage, as, a desire to explore the various issues that are thrown up by this kind of artistic creation. There are probably best-practice and worst-practice ways to do it; if we want to be able to make games and other forms of art that are inspired by other cultures, we should, at the very least, be thinking about this stuff, and discussing it. I do get that some will react in a "keep your politics out of my games" kind of way. That's also understandable, and there might be an argument for making a new thread if we do want to discuss this in huge detail. (I probably don't, ideally, because I have 2 weeks to finish my PhD...I should probably soft-ban myself from Dakka again instead.)

2) If we want games and their associated art to be taken seriously, as culture and as art forms -- this kind of discussion is a key part of that. We have to accept that if it's serious art, it is open to serious discussion, including critical analysis, and that some of that analysis will include consideration of the problematic implications of some design decisions. None of that means that we are evil for enjoying the game, or that CMON and the team are evil for making it. Quite the contrary -- making art is good, right? Especially art that advances the form to such an extent that people start discussing it in detail?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yeah, this game has the Orientalism turned to 11...

I certainly hope the do an African-American-themed game next.

Depends in the execution. Also, please no zombies.

And I really hope they'd have an homage to Robert B. Parker's Hawk character. Squee!