Picture this: You wake up in the middle of the night to a loud boom. You look out the window, and there's a Space Marine standing in the middle of the street, moving down everything that moves. He sees you, and starts walking to your house. Using your knowledge of the Warhammer universe, how would you kill him?
Ireland not being a weaponised citizenship, there is quite literally nothing in my house that would even scratch his armor let alone put him down.
Best bet would be to show him my 40k collection......
If we make a vague assumption that the "strength" of an autogun is relative to the strength of a generic 20th century Earth-based firearm...go out guns blazing?
Realistically? Get in your car (if you can) and drive away, possibly running him over in the process - though the mass/size/armour of a Space Marine would likely total a normal vehicle nowdays.
Crafty? Try to lure him in and spray paint his eye lenses...set the house on fire and hope to confuse his remaining infrared abilities etc.
Long term? Hope he runs out of ammunition. It's been clear that Space Marines almost never carry spare magazines and if they do...it appears to be one or two. That's not a lot of firepower considering the comical caliber/bore size of bolt guns. I'd say 10-15 bolts per magazine, so wait until he runs out of ammo.
Lasguns kill marines all the time. Presuming, as many do, that a Lasrifle is roughly a modern battle rifle in power, then "shoot him with bullets" should work.
I think a better question is how does a normal human SURVIVE an encounter with a Space Marine?
Seriously, get some dice, 1 SM model and 1 Guardsman model to represent you. Play that out Kill Team style. The Guardsman wouldn't survive the 3 rounds he statistically needs to drop the SM.
Honest answer: Run or hide, and hope he doesn't see me running and hiding.
Answer where I have access to what I have access to: Grab a gun, aim for the head, because hopefully it's a sergeant and he's not wearing a helmet. Pray that I hit him in just the right spot, like an eye socket, because anything else isn't a kill shot. If he's got a helmet, aim for the neck, though even if I score a killing shot he'll be alive long enough to kill me in return fire.
Answer where I don't have access to a gun: Find chemicals, and stand back because I'm going to try Science.
Grab a large kitchen knife and shove it through his cosplay armor repeatedly until he stops moving.
My knowledge of the WH40k universe suggests incredibly strongly that he is not a real Space Marine.
Space Marines go after critical targets and locations. A suburb with only random civilians is not a place any Space Marine would be during an attack on Earth.
Further, he is wasting his ammunition on random civilians. That's a very dumb thing for a Space Marine to do given how hard to make bolts are. He then decided to take me on in melee instead of shooting me from where he was, like he would have if he, for some reason was tasked with soloing a neighbourhood of civilians with no military or strategic value.
He is thus in an area no Space Marine would go, doing things no Space Marine would do.
Ergo, he is not a Space Marine, but instead a wacko cosplayer.
As a single individual against a Space Marine at that kind of close range? Not much :/
I could grab an AK and hope for an extremely lucky one in a thousand shot, but practically speaking, as a lone civilian with zero time to prepare, there arent many options.
Now, I have no doubt any modern military wouldnt have much problem dealing with space marines on the ground once real world realities kick in, but as a random civilian in a self defense situation Probably not much other than running away.
Vaktathi wrote: As a single individual against a Space Marine at that kind of close range? Not much :/
I could grab an AK and hope for an extremely lucky one in a thousand shot, but practically speaking, as a lone civilian with zero time to prepare, there arent many options.
Now, I have no doubt any modern military wouldnt have much problem dealing with space marines on the ground once real world realities kick in, but as a random civilian in a self defense situation Probably not much other than running away.
Do you think a standard RPG-7's plasma stream would defeat Astartes Power Armor?
Run into the building and use one of the nonsensical stairways in the complex to lose him, while calling the army that happens to have a base nearby
If I had to kill it with no outside help.
Step 1 -> Use Paint buckets and baloons filled with paint None of my power tools, crowbars or saws would be usefully vs the armoured hulk but we can sure blind it with paint. In the same way locals use paint to blind police
Step 2 -> Use Molotov cocktails. We sure have to have some flammable liquids in our home and who knows it might work. .. :\
Vaktathi wrote: As a single individual against a Space Marine at that kind of close range? Not much :/
I could grab an AK and hope for an extremely lucky one in a thousand shot, but practically speaking, as a lone civilian with zero time to prepare, there arent many options.
Now, I have no doubt any modern military wouldnt have much problem dealing with space marines on the ground once real world realities kick in, but as a random civilian in a self defense situation Probably not much other than running away.
Do you think a standard RPG-7's plasma stream would defeat Astartes Power Armor?
We don't even know what Astartes power armour is made of, so how could anyone ever possibly answer that question?
Vaktathi wrote: As a single individual against a Space Marine at that kind of close range? Not much :/
I could grab an AK and hope for an extremely lucky one in a thousand shot, but practically speaking, as a lone civilian with zero time to prepare, there arent many options.
Now, I have no doubt any modern military wouldnt have much problem dealing with space marines on the ground once real world realities kick in, but as a random civilian in a self defense situation Probably not much other than running away.
Do you think a standard RPG-7's plasma stream would defeat Astartes Power Armor?
I've always imaged the Boltgun bolts to be roughly equivalent to a RPG in terms of damage. Therefore, since Boltguns can take down Marines, a Rocket Propelled Grenade could work.
Only issue: as a civilian, I typically do not have access to RPG 7s. Best to pray to the Emperor and hope he passes you by.
Biggest I got is a 12 gauge that uses 3 1/2" shells. It'll knock a regulag person in modern body armour on his ads and take the wind out but that person will survive. Against a marine I doubt it'll even have that knock down power.
Do 3 years worth of 100 pushups, 100 situps, 100 squats and a 10km run every single day by the time he gets to the house so at least I have a chance to finish him off.
AnomanderRake wrote: With modern equipment? S*** yourself and call in an airstrike.
Nonsense. Volume of shotguns will work. Just ask scouts about that. And heavy stubbers are directly analogous to machine guns. The fluff is just impossible. Canon can still be nonsense.
Yell "For the Emprah and hope he leaves you alone. The scenario didnt really specify whether the SM was going to attack and kill you lol. Last time I checked, Earth's inhabited by humans and not Xenos. But probably find a way to live in that situation and come back and kill him.
AnomanderRake wrote: With modern equipment? S*** yourself and call in an airstrike.
Nonsense. Volume of shotguns will work. Just ask scouts about that. And heavy stubbers are directly analogous to machine guns. The fluff is just impossible. Canon can still be nonsense.
I tend to operate under the assumption that weaponry has advanced at least slightly in forty thousand years. I'm also operating under the assumption that not every single detail the fluff gives us is wrong, and that armour designed to withstand impacts from a .50-caliber armour-piercing rocket-propelled grenade launcher is going to ignore or laugh at modern anti-personnel weapons, for the large part. (Space Marine Scouts have rather larger-calibre shotguns than you're likely to have sitting around the house, too)
Alternately you could notice that Space Marines have an irrational fondness for wandering around with no helmets on and you could just shoot him in the face. Or if the joke that the Adeptus Mechanicus appears to satirize Microsoft because it's literally Microsoft forty thousand years down the line is accurate (and we're running on Independence Day logic) you could call them up and see if you could get some help hacking his power armour and turning it off. (Hands up who just had a mental image of an illuminated red ring around the skull on the chestplate).
It also did not specify what allegiance the space marine was on. My guess is that if there is a SM here now he will be send back to the past in order to change history.
I don't assume anything is actually more advanced in 40K, because the Land Raider is clearly from WWI. Yes, there's magic space metal, and that's about it. Their targeting, thinking, numbers, and planning are all inferior.
oldzoggy wrote: It also did not specify what allegiance the space marine was on. My guess is that if there is a SM here now he will be send back to the past in order to change history.
If you were a member of the Ordo Chronos with a mind to alter history I'd think a random street in 2016 isn't the first place you'd pick (you'd be aiming for the Horus Heresy, at which point your Space Marine landing somewhere one of us could see him would be way off target and his mission wouldn't be particularly relevant anymore. The possibility that he'd decide to settle down and fix up the place and end up becoming the Emperor is remote, bizarre, and should probably not be considered.).
(On a sidenote do you suppose the Ordo Chronos talks about time travel and the Heresy the way we talk about time travel and WWII?)
Plot Armour is a 1+++++ rerollable in 40k, so I'd immediately call GW, get permission to write some 40k fiction and immediately begin recounting the events with myself as the protagonist.
My favourite bit will be where I script the marine to slip over on a banana skin whilst I am duelling him bic biro vs combat knife, allowing my mighty bic to be thrust through the chin of his armour, depositing a load of ink (which happens to be incredibly toxic to marines and immediately leathal)!
nareik wrote: Plot Armour is a 1+++++ rerollable in 40k...
That's actually a good point. What Chapter is the Marine from? If he's an Ultramarine surrender now, you've got no chance, but if he's a Space Wolf you might be able to distract him by throwing a bouncey ball and if he's a Salamander you can probably just shoot him.
Vaktathi wrote: As a single individual against a Space Marine at that kind of close range? Not much :/
I could grab an AK and hope for an extremely lucky one in a thousand shot, but practically speaking, as a lone civilian with zero time to prepare, there arent many options.
Now, I have no doubt any modern military wouldnt have much problem dealing with space marines on the ground once real world realities kick in, but as a random civilian in a self defense situation Probably not much other than running away.
Do you think a standard RPG-7's plasma stream would defeat Astartes Power Armor?
I've always imaged the Boltgun bolts to be roughly equivalent to a RPG in terms of damage. Therefore, since Boltguns can take down Marines, a Rocket Propelled Grenade could work.
Only issue: as a civilian, I typically do not have access to RPG 7s. Best to pray to the Emperor and hope he passes you by.
Eh, Id say theyre a lot closer to something like a .50 BMG, which, while powerful, isnt the most insane thing out there, you could do with a much less powerful weapon than an RPG to kill a Space Marine without too much trouble, at least with a not unrealistic volume of fire
Pouncey wrote:
Vaktathi wrote: As a single individual against a Space Marine at that kind of close range? Not much :/
I could grab an AK and hope for an extremely lucky one in a thousand shot, but practically speaking, as a lone civilian with zero time to prepare, there arent many options.
Now, I have no doubt any modern military wouldnt have much problem dealing with space marines on the ground once real world realities kick in, but as a random civilian in a self defense situation Probably not much other than running away.
Do you think a standard RPG-7's plasma stream would defeat Astartes Power Armor?
Almost certainly. 40k equivalents of real world weapons like autocannons and missile launchers appear to be constructed in the same way from the same or similar materials and operate on the same principles, and often are actually even more primitive than modern weapons, so if those can kill an SM, modern equivalents can without issue.
I dont think anyone could make the case that Astartes armor is as protective as 250mm of hardened steel (about a foot thick), and if a 50 year old RPG can defeat that, they can probably defeat power armor. More modern RPG's can defeat almost thrice that, and tank shaped charge shells can defeat over a full meter of hardened steel.
Vaktathi wrote: As a single individual against a Space Marine at that kind of close range? Not much :/
I could grab an AK and hope for an extremely lucky one in a thousand shot, but practically speaking, as a lone civilian with zero time to prepare, there arent many options.
Now, I have no doubt any modern military wouldnt have much problem dealing with space marines on the ground once real world realities kick in, but as a random civilian in a self defense situation Probably not much other than running away.
Do you think a standard RPG-7's plasma stream would defeat Astartes Power Armor?
We don't even know what Astartes power armour is made of, so how could anyone ever possibly answer that question?
same reason as above, we have real equivalents to many 40k weapons that seem to kill SM's just fine.
My only home defense weapon is a rubber mallet... I'd get out of the back door and keep running. Hope he doesn't chase after me. If I have to stay I imagine I'd freeze up at the sound of my door being battered down and be absolutely helpless
On the other hand... can a space marine fit through a human sized doorway?
Vaktathi wrote: As a single individual against a Space Marine at that kind of close range? Not much :/
I could grab an AK and hope for an extremely lucky one in a thousand shot, but practically speaking, as a lone civilian with zero time to prepare, there arent many options.
Now, I have no doubt any modern military wouldnt have much problem dealing with space marines on the ground once real world realities kick in, but as a random civilian in a self defense situation Probably not much other than running away.
Do you think a standard RPG-7's plasma stream would defeat Astartes Power Armor?
We don't even know what Astartes power armour is made of, so how could anyone ever possibly answer that question?
Well, we could compare similar things in 40k lore.
Like plasma weapons and krak missile launchers.
Both of which make short work of power armored Astartes.
So I'm going to guess yes.
Also, if the resilience of Astartes power armor is a complete unknown, what on Earth is the point of this thread? It asks if an ordinary human could defeat an Astartes in the event that Astartes found itself on Earth. If we have zero data on the protectiveness of power armor, how is this a thread anyone could answer, since we would have zero concept of whether any terrestrial weapon would defeat the armor?
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Snake Tortoise wrote: On the other hand... can a space marine fit through a human sized doorway?
Are your home's walls or doorways sturdy enough to stop a power armored Space Marine from bursting through them like the Kool-Aid Man?
Desubot wrote: Throw 6 items at him. he should fail twice and fall over dead.
Better make it 36. 18 will hit, even wounding on 6's at S2 youll get 3 wounds, and then one should fail
You're assuming we're all BS3. If you're bad at throwing things you might need 54 things to get 18 hits.
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Pouncey wrote: ...Are your home's walls or doorways sturdy enough to stop a power armored Space Marine from bursting through them like the Kool-Aid Man?
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say for most of us the answer is probably "no".
Desubot wrote: Throw 6 items at him. he should fail twice and fall over dead.
Better make it 36. 18 will hit, even wounding on 6's at S2 youll get 3 wounds, and then one should fail
Even if all that were true, you'd only kill him like that 50% of the time that way! Of course, within that 50% you might also kill him 36 times...
Meanwhile, as you were trying to calculate the optimal number of objects to hurl at the Astartes, he has closed to to melee range and is presently eating your brain to find out what you know. Oh, he killed you like two minutes ago, I forgot to mention that.
I was actually thinking I can put a lot of .308/7.62 NATO downrange accurately and quickly. Don't know the effect it would have on Super Armor from the future, but joints and sensors are likely still vulnerable to the beating my rounds would give.
In the long term (not an Oh Crap there he is, time to fight!) I submit if you can make an IED that can throw 25 tons of armored truck in the air several feet you can take out a space marine.
Snake Tortoise wrote: On the other hand... can a space marine fit through a human sized doorway?
Are your home's walls or doorways sturdy enough to stop a power armored Space Marine from bursting through them like the Kool-Aid Man?
I don't know... bricks held together with cement covered in plaster with the wooden frame around the door... a Space Marine isn't just walking through that. I expect they'd batter through eventually but by that time a person can be out of a window and running, and that Space Marine then has to scrape/bludgeon his way back through the hallway and to the front door. I don't live in a big America house, I live in a one bedroom flat and the hallway at the front door is a narrow space for a 7 foot guy in power armour
I think if a human occupied fortress (in 40k) wants to protect itself from Space Marines it just has to make long narrow corridors 6 feet high and wide enough for one person to walk down. How's a Space Marine getting in? Build it into the side of a mountain
Dark Heresy does a great job portraying what it's like if a normal person went up against a Chaos/Vanilla Space marine. The rule of thumb is you run and you run fast because they're like Agents in the Matrix.
Not something that I would personally possess, but I'd suspect that if you could manage to wedge a grenade between his helmet and his back pack, that would probably do the business.
Vaktathi wrote: As a single individual against a Space Marine at that kind of close range? Not much :/
I could grab an AK and hope for an extremely lucky one in a thousand shot, but practically speaking, as a lone civilian with zero time to prepare, there arent many options.
Now, I have no doubt any modern military wouldnt have much problem dealing with space marines on the ground once real world realities kick in, but as a random civilian in a self defense situation Probably not much other than running away.
Do you think a standard RPG-7's plasma stream would defeat Astartes Power Armor?
It would have no problem penetrating SM power armour. It would also penetrate Land Raider armour without much trouble since GW in with their infinite wisdom has stated that Land Raiders has the equivalent of 300mm steel armour, Which frankly is ludicrous.
But if you don't have an RPG-7 in your home then you could try to ram him with a car. Sure, the car will be demolished and you might get seriously injured or at worst die in the crash but the marine will likely die or at least be seriously injured by the impact.
Vaktathi wrote: As a single individual against a Space Marine at that kind of close range? Not much :/
I could grab an AK and hope for an extremely lucky one in a thousand shot, but practically speaking, as a lone civilian with zero time to prepare, there arent many options.
Now, I have no doubt any modern military wouldnt have much problem dealing with space marines on the ground once real world realities kick in, but as a random civilian in a self defense situation Probably not much other than running away.
Do you think a standard RPG-7's plasma stream would defeat Astartes Power Armor?
It would have no problem penetrating SM power armour. It would also penetrate Land Raider armour without much trouble since GW in with their infinite wisdom has stated that Land Raiders has the equivalent of 300mm steel armour, Which frankly is ludicrous.
But if you don't have an RPG-7 in your home then you could try to ram him with a car. Sure, the car will be demolished and you might get seriously injured or at worst die in the crash but the marine will likely die or at least be seriously injured by the impact.
10' of armor? seriously 10 whole feet of plate armor?
anyway if a car use like a 76 Caddy or any 70's model Caddy, the caddy will survive, the Space Marine will be a road bump
Vaktathi wrote: As a single individual against a Space Marine at that kind of close range? Not much :/
I could grab an AK and hope for an extremely lucky one in a thousand shot, but practically speaking, as a lone civilian with zero time to prepare, there arent many options.
Now, I have no doubt any modern military wouldnt have much problem dealing with space marines on the ground once real world realities kick in, but as a random civilian in a self defense situation Probably not much other than running away.
Do you think a standard RPG-7's plasma stream would defeat Astartes Power Armor?
It would have no problem penetrating SM power armour. It would also penetrate Land Raider armour without much trouble since GW in with their infinite wisdom has stated that Land Raiders has the equivalent of 300mm steel armour, Which frankly is ludicrous.
But if you don't have an RPG-7 in your home then you could try to ram him with a car. Sure, the car will be demolished and you might get seriously injured or at worst die in the crash but the marine will likely die or at least be seriously injured by the impact.
10' of armor? seriously 10 whole feet of plate armor?
anyway if a car use like a 76 Caddy or any 70's model Caddy, the caddy will survive, the Space Marine will be a road bump
Vaktathi wrote: As a single individual against a Space Marine at that kind of close range? Not much :/
I could grab an AK and hope for an extremely lucky one in a thousand shot, but practically speaking, as a lone civilian with zero time to prepare, there arent many options.
Now, I have no doubt any modern military wouldnt have much problem dealing with space marines on the ground once real world realities kick in, but as a random civilian in a self defense situation Probably not much other than running away.
Do you think a standard RPG-7's plasma stream would defeat Astartes Power Armor?
It would have no problem penetrating SM power armour. It would also penetrate Land Raider armour without much trouble since GW in with their infinite wisdom has stated that Land Raiders has the equivalent of 300mm steel armour, Which frankly is ludicrous.
But if you don't have an RPG-7 in your home then you could try to ram him with a car. Sure, the car will be demolished and you might get seriously injured or at worst die in the crash but the marine will likely die or at least be seriously injured by the impact.
10' of armor? seriously 10 whole feet of plate armor?
anyway if a car use like a 76 Caddy or any 70's model Caddy, the caddy will survive, the Space Marine will be a road bump
300mm is roughly a foot.
oops thinking in CM's not MM's but still a whole foot? man the power consumption on that vehicle must be horrendous.
oldzoggy wrote: We do know the damage it could take in the RPG's. Making most if not all or home made improvized weapons completely useless.
In the RPGs a Lasgun basically can't hurt a Marine at all, unless you get a crit (in which case it just does 1 wound anyway, and Marines can easily have 20+ maximum wounds).
They were made with GW oversight and I really don't see any reason to consider them any less canon. Their massive granularity increase (1-99 statlines instead of 1-9, etc) only seem to make them more accurate.
Basically, the fight begins, you both roll for initiative, he has a much higher A stat so he is likely to go first. He uses IR sight to see you, makes a charge move through the wall of your house and hits you with a +10 Charge bonus standard attack which is probably going to kill you whether he is armed or not.
Gargantuan wrote: It would also penetrate Land Raider armour without much trouble since GW in with their infinite wisdom has stated that Land Raiders has the equivalent of 300mm steel armour, Which frankly is ludicrous. .
...Why the feth did GW's lore writers decide to give their futuristic super-indestructible tank an armor rating in units that currently exist? Even Star Trek knew to measure their computers' power in quads rather than a real unit of measurement so that no matter how advanced computers in real life got, no comparison was possible, allowing it to always seem amazingly powerful.
Follow-on question: After making that terrible decision, why did they not do cursory research into real life armor and at least make it similar to the material US battleships were retrofitted with that can take a direct hit from a 2,000lbs torpedo without any damage but a messed-up paint job?
Last I checked Forge World gives the dimensions of their vehicles, not their equivalent in modern materials. 40k tanks tend to be bigger, emptier inside, and thinner-armoured than modern tanks, but they run on space magic metallurgy so it's hard to make a direct comparison.
oldzoggy wrote: We do know the damage it could take in the RPG's. Making most if not all or home made improvized weapons completely useless.
In the RPGs a Lasgun basically can't hurt a Marine at all, unless you get a crit (in which case it just does 1 wound anyway, and Marines can easily have 20+ maximum wounds).
They were made with GW oversight and I really don't see any reason to consider them any less canon. Their massive granularity increase (1-99 statlines instead of 1-9, etc) only seem to make them more accurate.
I have a proposal for IG armed with lasgun who face power armored infantry.
Aim for the lenses of the helmet and try to blind the sensors. Lasguns are light weapons capable of causing lethal damage to human-like beings with the amount of heat energy they impart with each shot. That amount of light hitting some sort of visual sensor is going to start messing it up pretty badly and prevent the Astartes or Sororitas from seeing properly..
oldzoggy wrote: We do know the damage it could take in the RPG's. Making most if not all or home made improvized weapons completely useless.
In the RPGs a Lasgun basically can't hurt a Marine at all, unless you get a crit (in which case it just does 1 wound anyway, and Marines can easily have 20+ maximum wounds).
They were made with GW oversight and I really don't see any reason to consider them any less canon. Their massive granularity increase (1-99 statlines instead of 1-9, etc) only seem to make them more accurate.
I have a proposal for IG armed with lasgun who face power armored infantry.
Aim for the lenses of the helmet and try to blind the sensors. Lasguns are light weapons capable of causing lethal damage to human-like beings with the amount of heat energy they impart with each shot. That amount of light hitting some sort of visual sensor is going to start messing it up pretty badly and prevent the Astartes or Sororitas from seeing properly..
He is much faster. He will shoot first, and he won't need to shoot twice.
They also have visual sensors on their boltguns (which is why they can fire from the hip so easily) linked to their helmets. Autosenses!
oldzoggy wrote: We do know the damage it could take in the RPG's. Making most if not all or home made improvized weapons completely useless.
In the RPGs a Lasgun basically can't hurt a Marine at all, unless you get a crit (in which case it just does 1 wound anyway, and Marines can easily have 20+ maximum wounds).
They were made with GW oversight and I really don't see any reason to consider them any less canon. Their massive granularity increase (1-99 statlines instead of 1-9, etc) only seem to make them more accurate.
I have a proposal for IG armed with lasgun who face power armored infantry.
Aim for the lenses of the helmet and try to blind the sensors. Lasguns are light weapons capable of causing lethal damage to human-like beings with the amount of heat energy they impart with each shot. That amount of light hitting some sort of visual sensor is going to start messing it up pretty badly and prevent the Astartes or Sororitas from seeing properly..
He is much faster. He will shoot first, and he won't need to shoot twice.
IG never fight alone and they expect heavy casualties in every battle. Someone's lasgun will find its mark in the weight of fire.
They also have visual sensors on their boltguns (which is why they can fire from the hip so easily) linked to their helmets. Autosenses!
You mean they have a gun camera.
Then aim for that too.
Not sure why you thought their gun camera would suddenly present a new challenge.
I'd expect the light to be less of a concern than the heat; lasguns don't operate by blinding people, they operate by boiling bits of them and setting surrounding areas on fire. If you hit a power-armoured helmet's eye lens straight on you'd probably be more likely to mangle the sensor directly than damage it through excessive input.
(Not to mention depending on the mechanism by which the sensor operates it could well have safety tolerances/shut-offs for situations like wandering around in space and taking a glance at a nearby star with no atmosphere in the way)
AnomanderRake wrote: I'd expect the light to be less of a concern than the heat; lasguns don't operate by blinding people, they operate by boiling bits of them and setting surrounding areas on fire. If you hit a power-armoured helmet's eye lens straight on you'd probably be more likely to mangle the sensor directly than damage it through excessive input.
(Not to mention depending on the mechanism by which the sensor operates it could well have safety tolerances/shut-offs for situations like wandering around in space and taking a glance at a nearby star with no atmosphere in the way)
Lasguns are not heat rays, they are lasers. They do their damage through overheating the impact site, but they're still using light to deliver that amount of heat. The visual sensor would be taking a huge hit of sudden brightness.
Admittedly, it may not be an issue. Space Marines use plasma weapons hot enough to melt their own power armor, and the reality of war in the 30th millennium when their tech was designed likely included a probability of incredibly bright lights. Their sensors may be capable of filtering out much of the brightness even though a modern camera would get messed-up.
Really though, I just realized. Lasguns. Are laser weapons. That deliver enough heat. To kill people.
The laws of physics dictate that for ever action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. That's where recoil in standard firearms comes from. Laser weapons obviously wouldn't have recoil as light has no mass to push kinetic energy back into the weapon, but they can't simply deliver lethal amounts of heat to a target without that equal and opposite reaction. According to what we know of laser weapons in real life and in theoretical physics, a laser weapon would not only deliver that heat to its source, but the "kickback" for lack of a better word would also cause the laser weapon to heat up as well. The rate of fire of a lasgun, combined with the amount of heat its delivering, would make this a very, very serious issue.
However, the creators of the lasgun were from the era when the Imperium embraced science and technological advancement. They would've been well aware of this issue, and designed the lasgun with sufficient cooling capabilities to handle the heat from battlefield use, as there is no use for an infantryman's rifle that they can no longer use after a short period of firing. They appear to have been effective in their design, as Guardsmen do not appear discomforted by their own weapons.
Dark Heresy does a great job portraying what it's like if a normal person went up against a Chaos/Vanilla Space marine. The rule of thumb is you run and you run fast because they're like Agents in the Matrix.
This.
As do the NLs Soul Hunter series of books.
Thanks for bringing some sanity to this thread
Pouncey wrote: The laws of physics dictate that for ever action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. That's where recoil in standard firearms comes from. Laser weapons obviously wouldn't have recoil as light has no mass to push kinetic energy back into the weapon, but they can't simply deliver lethal amounts of heat to a target without that equal and opposite reaction. According to what we know of laser weapons in real life and in theoretical physics, a laser weapon would not only deliver that heat to its source, but the "kickback" for lack of a better word would also cause the laser weapon to heat up as well. The rate of fire of a lasgun, combined with the amount of heat its delivering, would make this a very, very serious issue.
Uh, no, this is completely wrong. The "equal and opposite reaction" only applies to force and moving objects. A laser weapon will have negligible recoil because light has negligible momentum (it's complicated), there is no opposite reaction from the energy to a target. Lasers get hot because the process of generating the beam is not 100% efficient and creates a lot of waste heat as a side effect. A theoretical laser with 100% efficiency would have no such problem.
oldzoggy wrote: It also did not specify what allegiance the space marine was on. My guess is that if there is a SM here now he will be send back to the past in order to change history.
If you were a member of the Ordo Chronos with a mind to alter history I'd think a random street in 2016 isn't the first place you'd pick (you'd be aiming for the Horus Heresy, at which point your Space Marine landing somewhere one of us could see him would be way off target and his mission wouldn't be particularly relevant anymore. The possibility that he'd decide to settle down and fix up the place and end up becoming the Emperor is remote, bizarre, and should probably not be considered.).
He could be a cabal agent trying to trying to prevent the grim dark cancer that is the IoM to be formed. Or he could be on a secret mission to supply the scientist that is going to be the emperor with the technology needed to build his super warriors, the agent could even be send here to ignite the anarchy before the unification wars. It might also be a CSM trying to implant the faith in tzeentch before the IoM could ever be formed. We just don't know.
(On a sidenote do you suppose the Ordo Chronos talks about time travel and the Heresy the way we talk about time travel and WWII?)
I don't know expected them to fix / prevent issues due to time mismatches when things drop out of the warp. Thus making sure that non sanctioned ideas of the past and future don't infect the IoM.
I have never considered them to be time travellers themselves.
Horus had slain the Emperor, but at the cost of his soul and the purpose of the Great Crusade. The Emperor planned to show Horus mercy. To give him a chance for repentance, but with his guard down he was no match for Horus. Chaos washed across the tattered remains of the Emperorless infant Imperium.
A group of rogue loyallists survived. The Imperial Truth wasn't perfect, but the reality of Horus's victory was far worse.
A quest was set upon, to collect an array of artifacts and to set events into motion. Into Backward motion.
One man completed this quest, and was able to return back to the Siege of Terra, materialising upon Horus barge. As he did so, the Emperor turned to face Horus, hoping to reason with his favoured son. Clearly there was a misunderstanding!
Too late, Horus began his attack. Our time traveller stood in his path, screaming "Emperor, please! See my mind." Moments before this strange man was obliterated by Horus's attack, the Emperor saw the dark vision of the future from which the traveller came and knew for sure Horus had to be destroyed.
Thanks to this man Horus was met in battle by the Emperor. His name: Ollanius Pius and in his memory the Ordo Chronos was formed.
Oh, and he also sent a spacemarine back to your house, 2016, to erase your knowledge of this post in the most brutal way possible.
Pouncey wrote: and the reality of war in the 30th millennium when their tech was designed likely included a probability of incredibly bright lights. Their sensors may be capable of filtering out much of the brightness even though a modern camera would get messed-up.
Yea that is the case, there are lots of instances of SM helmets dimming the brightness after a large explosion/flare of light. I don't know what happens when a lasgun shot hits right in the eye lens though. I would imagine it could definitely kill. I'd love to see more cases in the books of human infantry in sufficient numbers taking down Space Marines
A bit off topic but I'd like to see more cases generally of 30/40k heroes dying to more mundane circumstances than a rival Space Marine of the same rank killing them in single combat.
Well, I sneak out of my house whilst he is distracted murdering my street, head over to my workplace and retrieve the Mauser T-1918 we have there:
I then open up the armoury and locate the ammunition we have stored there and take the Mauser 13mm AP shot, then take a gun cleaning kit and get her prepped.
heading back home I set myself up in a concealed location, flanking the Marine and fire before relocating and firing again.
Rinse and repeat until he is dead.
master of ordinance wrote: Well, I sneak out of my house whilst he is distracted murdering my street, head over to my workplace and retrieve the Mauser T-1918 we have there:
I then open up the armoury and locate the ammunition we have stored there and take the Mauser 13mm AP shot, then take a gun cleaning kit and get her prepped.
heading back home I set myself up in a concealed location, flanking the Marine and fire before relocating and firing again.
Rinse and repeat until he is dead.
He'd kill you 1000 times over before you manage to do all of that.
master of ordinance wrote: Well, I sneak out of my house whilst he is distracted murdering my street, head over to my workplace and retrieve the Mauser T-1918 we have there:
I then open up the armoury and locate the ammunition we have stored there and take the Mauser 13mm AP shot, then take a gun cleaning kit and get her prepped.
heading back home I set myself up in a concealed location, flanking the Marine and fire before relocating and firing again.
Rinse and repeat until he is dead.
He'd kill you 1000 times over before you manage to do all of that.
Me, I'd just roundhouse kick him in the head.
Don't worry his bolter only shoots 24" just stay 2mtr away from the dude and you will be fine ; )
Gargantuan wrote: It would also penetrate Land Raider armour without much trouble since GW in with their infinite wisdom has stated that Land Raiders has the equivalent of 300mm steel armour, Which frankly is ludicrous. .
...Why the feth did GW's lore writers decide to give their futuristic super-indestructible tank an armor rating in units that currently exist? Even Star Trek knew to measure their computers' power in quads rather than a real unit of measurement so that no matter how advanced computers in real life got, no comparison was possible, allowing it to always seem amazingly powerful.
Follow-on question: After making that terrible decision, why did they not do cursory research into real life armor and at least make it similar to the material US battleships were retrofitted with that can take a direct hit from a 2,000lbs torpedo without any damage but a messed-up paint job?
Because chemistry still exists in the year 40,000 and they don't have any new elements to work with. But yes, we have better armor than that today. But we also have better weapons. Just accept that 40K is the retro-future and that US marines would massacre space marines because of GW's lack of vision. Just as US marines would slaughter stormtroopers or any other low-thought sci-fi troops. The Necrons are frankly 100X more horrifying than the space marines.
master of ordinance wrote: Well, I sneak out of my house whilst he is distracted murdering my street, head over to my workplace and retrieve the Mauser T-1918 we have there:
I then open up the armoury and locate the ammunition we have stored there and take the Mauser 13mm AP shot, then take a gun cleaning kit and get her prepped.
heading back home I set myself up in a concealed location, flanking the Marine and fire before relocating and firing again.
Rinse and repeat until he is dead.
He'd kill you 1000 times over before you manage to do all of that.
Me, I'd just roundhouse kick him in the head.
He is coming up my street and approaching the front of my house, right? By the time he has reached my front door im out and close to a mile away, across the field and then into the residential area. By the time he is though my house ive either found transport or I am heading rapidly for my place of work. By the time he has my trail im long gone.
Know thy area
And let's face it, a Space Marine is tough to kill. But while tougher than humans, Space Marine biology still doesn't appreciate rapid injection of white hot metal at speeds faster than sound. The main problem is getting through the armor naturally, but that's less of a problem when so many astartes forego their helmets.
Laughs as the Space Marine either falls dead or immobile as the laws of physics and biology turns this into a non-threat, then buy lots of green spray paint and a bunch of drills bits, paint the SM in Dark Angel colors, drill a hole through the head, and then call my friend who likes the DA about how I bagged one in my appartement
With Dark Heresy being mentioned, my solution would be to try and kill the marine with falling damage. if I recall correctly the rules surrounding falling were frankly ridiculous (and it completely ignored armour).
Vaktathi wrote: As a single individual against a Space Marine at that kind of close range? Not much :/
I could grab an AK and hope for an extremely lucky one in a thousand shot, but practically speaking, as a lone civilian with zero time to prepare, there arent many options.
Now, I have no doubt any modern military wouldnt have much problem dealing with space marines on the ground once real world realities kick in, but as a random civilian in a self defense situation Probably not much other than running away.
Do you think a standard RPG-7's plasma stream would defeat Astartes Power Armor?
I've always imaged the Boltgun bolts to be roughly equivalent to a RPG in terms of damage. Therefore, since Boltguns can take down Marines, a Rocket Propelled Grenade could work.
Only issue: as a civilian, I typically do not have access to RPG 7s. Best to pray to the Emperor and hope he passes you by.
Eh, Id say theyre a lot closer to something like a .50 BMG, which, while powerful, isnt the most insane thing out there, you could do with a much less powerful weapon than an RPG to kill a Space Marine without too much trouble, at least with a not unrealistic volume of fire
Pouncey wrote:
Vaktathi wrote: As a single individual against a Space Marine at that kind of close range? Not much :/
I could grab an AK and hope for an extremely lucky one in a thousand shot, but practically speaking, as a lone civilian with zero time to prepare, there arent many options.
Now, I have no doubt any modern military wouldnt have much problem dealing with space marines on the ground once real world realities kick in, but as a random civilian in a self defense situation Probably not much other than running away.
Do you think a standard RPG-7's plasma stream would defeat Astartes Power Armor?
Almost certainly. 40k equivalents of real world weapons like autocannons and missile launchers appear to be constructed in the same way from the same or similar materials and operate on the same principles, and often are actually even more primitive than modern weapons, so if those can kill an SM, modern equivalents can without issue.
I dont think anyone could make the case that Astartes armor is as protective as 250mm of hardened steel (about a foot thick), and if a 50 year old RPG can defeat that, they can probably defeat power armor. More modern RPG's can defeat almost thrice that, and tank shaped charge shells can defeat over a full meter of hardened steel.
This is fiction. Space Marine armour is made of a fictional material. You can make the case that Space Marine armour is as protective as everything you damn well want, because it is always going to be just as protective as the plot demands. We should not be wondering "can a real-life weapon do anything against a Space Marine?", because that is a question that is impossible to answer because the strength of a Space Marine's armour depends completely on the plot of the story. The same is true for most weapons in 40k. They are made of materials that do not really exist, so therefore it is impossible to compare them to any real-life weapon. 40k weapons are as strong as the plot demands them to be. In some stories a Space Marine shrugs of thousands of lasguns, in others a Space Marine can be killed by a single lasgun shot. It all depends on the plot.
Therefore, what we should be wondering about in this scenario is "what is the relevance of the normal human being and the Space Marine to the plot?". Because that is the only way by which fights involving fictional characters are being decided. If the normal human is important to the plot, he will be able to kill the Space Marine with whatever weapon he has lying about, whether it be an advanced missile launcher or just a rusty crowbar. If however the Space Marine is more important than the normal human to the plot, then he won't be able to kill the Space Marine no matter what weapons he has, even if it is a fully armed attack helicopter.
This may not be a satisfying answer, but it is the only realistic one. Any answer as to 'yes' or 'no' is just fantasising without any factual base.
Bobthehero wrote: Laughs as the Space Marine either falls dead or immobile as the laws of physics and biology turns this into a non-threat, then buy lots of green spray paint and a bunch of drills bits, paint the SM in Dark Angel colors, drill a hole through the head, and then call my friend who likes the DA about how I bagged one in my appartement
This may actually be the most realistic answer Space Marines are inherently unrealistic, they could not exist in our world.
Haha, some of these posts are funny and cringey but it's very amusing to see everyone be able to pull all these weapons in the matter of a few seconds when you're not even confused on why an 8" feet SM suddenly exists on your block and is walking towards you. I probably would crap myself lol, not only from the fact there's a freaking SM coming to rip my ass apart but the fact that the 40k Universe exists in reality. It's a scary place to be.
RaiGreySteel wrote: Haha, some of these posts are funny and cringey but it's very amusing to see everyone be able to pull all these weapons in the matter of a few seconds when you're not even confused on why an 8" feet SM suddenly exists on your block and is walking towards you. I probably would crap myself lol, not only from the fact there's a freaking SM coming to rip my ass apart but the fact that the 40k Universe exists in reality. It's a scary place to be.
Oh let people have their fun man I myself would probably just run to the hills
Well if a "real" space marine showed up then it would prove the Warp/Gods/Faith existed and therefore I'd just pray......if in that instant of revelation my till then nascent psyker powers manifested I would kill him with mind bullets. If not well it was fun living......
and as mentioned by others no you can't have my stuff.
I'd make for the nearest stairwell.
Anybody who has played 40kRPG knows stairs are the greatest Space Marine killers in the universe.
Humour aside I'd probably close the gap to sate my curiosity and get smeared over the ground.
Wow, I knew you guys liked guns but this is still a shocking difference to what I am used to.
It is all for sports / hobby or do you guys actually feel you need them an how do you afford them all ?
Collecting guns seems an expensive hobby when you are already collecting GW priced mini's.
Wow, I knew you guys liked guns but this is still a shocking difference to what I am used to.
It is all for sports / hobby or do you guys actually feel you need them an how do you afford them all ?
Collecting guns seems an expensive hobby when you are already collecting GW priced mini's.
Check out that thread. It will enlighten you. And I don't have much GW stuff.
Iron_Captain wrote: This is fiction. Space Marine armour is made of a fictional material. You can make the case that Space Marine armour is as protective as everything you damn well want, because it is always going to be just as protective as the plot demands. We should not be wondering "can a real-life weapon do anything against a Space Marine?", because that is a question that is impossible to answer because the strength of a Space Marine's armour depends completely on the plot of the story.
Sure, the properties of armor and armor penetration for 40K weapons are impossible to determine (though the fluff can give some pointers). We have no idea if future armor would be impervious to modern small arms or perhaps totally worthless.
But surely the human body hasn't changed that much? We have a pretty good idea about how tough our ancestors could be, and when it comes to weapons what kills us would have killed them too (even if some of them might hit harder than any of us except professional strongmen). Toughness 3 for a normal human and T4 for a marine means anything that can kill the human also can kill the marine according to the to-wound table in my rulebook.
So IMO the best bet would be a standard anti-tank mine (10kg of TNT). His armor might not even be dented but the upward acceleration would without a doubt kill him in an instant, everything but his bones jellified.
Matthew wrote: Picture this: You wake up in the middle of the night to a loud boom. You look out the window, and there's a Space Marine standing in the middle of the street, moving down everything that moves. He sees you, and starts walking to your house. Using your knowledge of the Warhammer universe, how would you kill him?
Depends a lot on whether or not he is a Chaos Space Marine or an Imperial Space Marine.
IF Chaos, I will laugh at him and punch him in the throat and that should probably do it.
If its Imperial, i'll point out that he isn't adhering to the codex astartes and that the Emperor protects and some other platitudes until his head explodes from boredom.
kronk wrote: There was a marine killed in one of the first HH books that was stabbed through the neck by a lucky spear stab, if I recall. From a human.
Of course, his squad mate tore the human in half with his bear hands. So have fun trying!
It was some strange tribe on a daemon world and it shocked everybody that it happened, even the centuries-old veterans.
Clearly it's not something to expect.
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Spetulhu wrote: But surely the human body hasn't changed that much? We have a pretty good idea about how tough our ancestors could be, and when it comes to weapons what kills us would have killed them too (even if some of them might hit harder than any of us except professional strongmen). Toughness 3 for a normal human and T4 for a marine means anything that can kill the human also can kill the marine according to the to-wound table in my rulebook.
The RPG stats are just as canon and by their metric attacks that would be S3 on the tabletop are completely useless.
Ratius wrote: Cmon peeps, how you going to stop this?
Ok he seems to have misplaced his bolter
As above, but I would flank him and aim for the massive vents on his rear, taking out his reactor and either blowing him up or leaving him unable to move.
Pouncey wrote: Grab a large kitchen knife and shove it through his cosplay armor repeatedly until he stops moving.
My knowledge of the WH40k universe suggests incredibly strongly that he is not a real Space Marine.
Space Marines go after critical targets and locations. A suburb with only random civilians is not a place any Space Marine would be during an attack on Earth.
Further, he is wasting his ammunition on random civilians. That's a very dumb thing for a Space Marine to do given how hard to make bolts are. He then decided to take me on in melee instead of shooting me from where he was, like he would have if he, for some reason was tasked with soloing a neighbourhood of civilians with no military or strategic value.
He is thus in an area no Space Marine would go, doing things no Space Marine would do.
Ergo, he is not a Space Marine, but instead a wacko cosplayer.
Lasguns kill marines all the time. Presuming, as many do, that a Lasrifle is roughly a modern battle rifle in power, then "shoot him with bullets" should work.
Question then is marine in question as per fluff or seriously watered down game version?
If he's canonically tough forget that. PA is pretty much impervious to lasgun. Marine could charge up middle of platoon of IG(armed only with lasgun), pose around giving them ample time to pour lasgun fire and then blast them apart. Only issue would be repainting armour!
"damn punks. Don't they realize how timeconsuming painting power armour is? Show some respect and just die!"
Lasguns kill marines all the time. Presuming, as many do, that a Lasrifle is roughly a modern battle rifle in power, then "shoot him with bullets" should work.
Question then is marine in question as per fluff or seriously watered down game version?
If he's canonically tough forget that. PA is pretty much impervious to lasgun. Marine could charge up middle of platoon of IG(armed only with lasgun), pose around giving them ample time to pour lasgun fire and then blast them apart. Only issue would be repainting armour!
"damn punks. Don't they realize how timeconsuming painting power armour is? Show some respect and just die!"
The problem with this is that, as far as I know, in no context in which Space Marines or their power armo(u)r have actually been quantified -- in TT games or RPGs -- are they impervious to lasguns.
Eh? It's a frequent complaint about the RPGs that even a simple thrown rock can hurt a Space Marine, due to how Righteous Fury works.
Autoguns are effective against marines in the RPGs. Not very effective, but they can hurt them.
People without fate points don't get Righteous Fury if I recall correctly.
Barring Righteous Fury in Dark Heresy a lasgun couldn't hurt a Space Marine in power armour (due to how toughness works). But then again a plasma gun would barely hurt a Space Marine in it.
The RPG stats are just as canon and by their metric attacks that would be S3 on the tabletop are completely useless.
Eh? It's a frequent complaint about the RPGs that even a simple thrown rock can hurt a Space Marine, due to how Righteous Fury works.
Autoguns are effective against marines in the RPGs. Not very effective, but they can hurt them.
Autoguns cannot harm them in my experience (they and lasguns have what, 1d10+3 damage and 0 pen, against a Marine who will have a toughness bonus of at least 8 and often higher, as well as a minimum of 7 armor depending on hit location, armor type, and edition).
As was said, RF requires fate points and attacks that normally cannot hurt a target only does 1 damage with RF.
So in this scenario a bio-engineered supersoldier with advanced infantry power armor and weaponry has entered a modern civilian area and has noticed, and is now pursuing, and individual.
In that fiction, thoughts of "shoot him" guarantee death. You are going one on one with a superior force that is specifically outfitted for direct conflict. Tactical failure.
Fleeing is probably the only viable option. Unconventional force may work. The car ramming, deploying to inaccessible areas, etc. *may* work. However, they may just get you dead. With superhuman reflexes, the SM may just step out of the roadway and shoot you as you drive, etc. Realistically, if the SM has noticed the target, any potential advantage is gone and it's now a question of possible survival, not victory.
However, given this would be a highly unusual fictional scenario, perhaps the targeted individual is targeted for a reason. Maybe they are a latent psyker, can act as a daemonhost, or the SM desires to capture, not slay, the target.
The RPG stats are just as canon and by their metric attacks that would be S3 on the tabletop are completely useless.
Eh? It's a frequent complaint about the RPGs that even a simple thrown rock can hurt a Space Marine, due to how Righteous Fury works.
Autoguns are effective against marines in the RPGs. Not very effective, but they can hurt them.
Autoguns cannot harm them in my experience (they and lasguns have what, 1d10+3 damage and 0 pen, against a Marine who will have a toughness bonus of at least 8 and often higher, as well as a minimum of 7 armor depending on hit location, armor type, and edition).
As was said, RF requires fate points and attacks that normally cannot hurt a target only does 1 damage with RF.
A normal lasgun can be overloaded to do 2 more damage and gain 2 AP, the Triplex pattern lasgun can ignore all of an SM unnatural toughness if fired in the right mode, or be an accurate weapon that deals extra damage. In both case they'll do an actual point of damage on an 10, so meh, but you're pretty much a talent away from being able to do 2-3 damage.
jmurph wrote: So in this scenario a bio-engineered supersoldier with advanced infantry power armor and weaponry has entered a modern civilian area and has noticed, and is now pursuing, and individual.
In that fiction, thoughts of "shoot him" guarantee death. You are going one on one with a superior force that is specifically outfitted for direct conflict. Tactical failure.
Fleeing is probably the only viable option. Unconventional force may work. The car ramming, deploying to inaccessible areas, etc. *may* work. However, they may just get you dead. With superhuman reflexes, the SM may just step out of the roadway and shoot you as you drive, etc. Realistically, if the SM has noticed the target, any potential advantage is gone and it's now a question of possible survival, not victory.
However, given this would be a highly unusual fictional scenario, perhaps the targeted individual is targeted for a reason. Maybe they are a latent psyker, can act as a daemonhost, or the SM desires to capture, not slay, the target.
Unlike a modern human, a 40k Space Marine is mentally deficient. Child-like IQ, at best. Dumb as rocks. Plus, stat-wise, they are slow as molasses. Their weapons have pitiful range, like early blackpowder. If the SM is not right on top of you, he is easily outrun, and outmaneuvered. Modern weapons have vastly higher ROF and range. That SM will NEVER get close enough to an alert person to present any threat. For all intents and purposes, a SM is a zombie walker with a somewhat larger threat radius.
Like any red-blooded American, I would use unbridled and overwhelming firepower. In the words of the greatest American hero that ever lived, Arnold Schwarzenegger, during the alien scout incursion of 1987, "If it bleeds, we can kill it."
jmurph wrote: So in this scenario a bio-engineered supersoldier with advanced infantry power armor and weaponry has entered a modern civilian area and has noticed, and is now pursuing, and individual.
In that fiction, thoughts of "shoot him" guarantee death. You are going one on one with a superior force that is specifically outfitted for direct conflict. Tactical failure.
Fleeing is probably the only viable option. Unconventional force may work. The car ramming, deploying to inaccessible areas, etc. *may* work. However, they may just get you dead. With superhuman reflexes, the SM may just step out of the roadway and shoot you as you drive, etc. Realistically, if the SM has noticed the target, any potential advantage is gone and it's now a question of possible survival, not victory.
However, given this would be a highly unusual fictional scenario, perhaps the targeted individual is targeted for a reason. Maybe they are a latent psyker, can act as a daemonhost, or the SM desires to capture, not slay, the target.
Unlike a modern human, a 40k Space Marine is mentally deficient. Child-like IQ, at best. Dumb as rocks. Plus, stat-wise, they are slow as molasses. Their weapons have pitiful range, like early blackpowder. If the SM is not right on top of you, he is easily outrun, and outmaneuvered. Modern weapons have vastly higher ROF and range. That SM will NEVER get close enough to an alert person to present any threat. For all intents and purposes, a SM is a zombie walker with a somewhat larger threat radius.
Funnily, the RPGs are canon too, and they have higher Int than humans.
IOW, newp.
I can imagine you'd continue to call them stupid until a 80 agility Raven Guard sneaks into your house and oneshots you with a stalker bolter, with his talents and traits making it hit like a multimelta.
Chainaxes are +13, tsk tsk. Regardless, they both die to a single lascannon team, win some lose some I guess.
Edit: Multimeltas are kinda wimpy now that I look at them, they do about 6 more damage than a multilaser and have some more pen, but the ml fires 5 shots per turn. My stormtrooper could survive an average hit of the MM (and from Ash dude Stalker, apparently, fancy that...)
The RPG stuff has to be taken in context too. Deathwatch for example is to Space Marines what "300" is to the actual battle of Thermopalye, with handheld bolters more powerful than Dark Heresy vehickr mounted heavy bolters, and characters that can literally be shot directly in the naked face and sustain 0 damage.
One of my Black Crusade players got a Raptor Character up to the point where he over-killed a Necron Tomb Stalker in a single powerfist attack. The RPG's are great resources but perfect reflections either.
It is better than the model game due to superior granularity, but obviously the books are better still as they are even more granular (so to speak) and do not have to obey any kind of game balancing at all.
And Guardsmen, upon promotion to Major, suddenly can absorb two heavy bolter shots to the bare face and fight on as if nothing had happened, where their men are reduced to mush from just one.
You have to look at it in context. No platform is flawless.
At my cabin, I'd stand a chance. Good luck catching me on my cross-countries skiis in 4ft of snow while trudging around in power armour. I'd then just call it a draw by remaining out of gunshot my entire life. Alternatively, Norway has the tenth most guns per capita in the world - moose hunting rifle should do the trick. If it can drop a half ton animal, it can drop a Space Marine, though I'd wait 'til he's sleeping.
Ashiraya wrote: And Guardsmen, upon promotion to Major, suddenly can absorb two heavy bolter shots to the bare face and fight on as if nothing had happened, where their men are reduced to mush from just one.
You have to look at it in context. No platform is flawless.
Yes, and the RPG allows Guardsmen to eventually take a multimelta shot and walk away with a burned off ear, at worst. And that's with rolling 2 10's.
Yes, and the RPG allows Guardsmen to eventually take a multimelta shot and walk away with a burned off ear, at worst. And that's with rolling 2 10's.
Bolters, plasma guns and melta weapons were all underpowered in Dark Heresy v1 at least.
They still are, a heavy bolter needs to hit a guardsman in the head and roll a 10 for damage in order to kill the guardsman outright if you use the critical wounds table for NPC's.
It depends on what definition of Marine you're talking about.
1) Black Library: All over the place, from lasguns blowing power-armoured heads clean off (First and Only, iirc) to Marines enduring volleys of lasgun and artillery fire with little trouble (Storm of Iron).
2) RPGs without Deathwatch: Marine NPCs weren't that bad, with a competent Only War PC being able to take down a Chaos Space Marine.
3) RPGs with Deathwatch: Marine PCs can fight 1v1 with a hive tyrant and win.
4) Table top: Lasguns are more threatening to Marines, point for point, than boltguns are to guardsmen, if the guardsmen have ruins to take cover in.
5) My headcanon (as valid as anyone else's by Word of God!): Space Marines in power armour are phenomenally durable but not indestructible, even given modern weapons technology. Things like an inaccurate burst from a 5.56 or 7.62mm weapon will sprang harmlessly off the armour, a well-aimed bullet will go through the rubber-tube joints and inflict damage to the armour (though likely not incapacitate the marine), and anything higher calibre will inflict considerably more damage, up to mid-20th century antitank munitions which would effortlessly pierce through even the thickest point of the breastplate and mulch the marine inside.
Unit1126PLL wrote: 2) RPGs without Deathwatch: Marine NPCs weren't that bad, with a competent Only War PC being able to take down a Chaos Space Marine.
I found Only War to be absolutely nuts and we changed it a lot when my local RPG group picked it up (like when we undid the huge Astartes nerf in Black Crusade, etc.)
My headcanon is that Astartes would fare rather well against modern forces, because anything big and punchy enough to be useful is impractical against such a relatively small target.
All Americans in this thread: "Shoot it a bunch".
Everyone else: Role playing or table top super high fidelity analysis that makes it seem impossible.
As a red blooded American, ya'll need to watch some more Red Dawn. (The old one yeah boy.) I do not personally own more then a 12 gauge, but at close range a deer slug is going to throw down some insane damage, just not penetrate very well.
Some of the crazy rifle rounds would end a marine pretty fast, ammunition is crazy far ahead of armor at the moment. Unless he is a tank or a terminator that 3+ save isn't going to stop bullets forever. (His boltgun on the other hand can stop them :-) )
sfshilo wrote: All Americans in this thread: "Shoot it a bunch".
Everyone else: Role playing or table top super high fidelity analysis that makes it seem impossible.
And the Finns... If it's the Red Stars Chapter, auto-lose for the SMs!
My headcanon is that Astartes would fare rather well against modern forces, because anything big and punchy enough to be useful is impractical against such a relatively small target
I've personally put 3 120mm sabot rounds into a target at 1800 meters, and you could cover all three holes with a kevlar helmet.
And I've put a 120mm HEAT round into a target MUCH smaller than a standing man at about the same range.
Walking around the modern battlefield in bright colors and standing 8 feet tall wouldn't be too healthy.
My headcanon is that Astartes would fare rather well against modern forces, because anything big and punchy enough to be useful is impractical against such a relatively small target
I've personally put 3 120mm sabot rounds into a target at 1800 meters, and you could cover all three holes with a kevlar helmet.
And I've put a 120mm HEAT round into a target MUCH smaller than a standing man at about the same range.
Walking around the modern battlefield in bright colors and standing 8 feet tall wouldn't be too healthy.
What about the back banners? You can sight them in even easier when their banner is 3 feet wide and adds another 5 feet to the height!
I like how everyone assumes the space marine will be standing around for them to take a hit. For all we know, they probably would have turned normal people into paste by landing on top of them with a drop pod (in before rules lawyers quote Inertial Guidance Systems)
NInjatactiks wrote: I like how everyone assumes the space marine will be standing around for them to take a hit. For all we know, they probably would have turned normal people into paste by landing on top of them with a drop pod (in before rules lawyers quote Inertial Guidance Systems)
Then how come the Orks weren't stopped dead in their tracks on Armageddon? There are more SM than Orks warband, lots of captains and bigger, too, and yet...
The game was based on movie Marines and godly Marines lore which is gak. It's also a game and it wouldn't be funny if a single dude with a longlas with a hotshot pack was able to decapitate your dude in one hit. Just ask the Celestial Lions...
Edit: not to mention the It irs still present and fighting, poorly, in the area where you are, but they are here. I have to tested it and they seemed to have programmed to do no damage with their lasguns, are going to use that as a source to claim that lasguns cannot hurt anything?
Bobthehero wrote: Then how come the Orks weren't stopped dead in their tracks on Armageddon? There are more SM than Orks warband, lots of captains and bigger, too, and yet...
And I think that say far more about the vast Ork hordes on Armageddon. Which the Space Marines only arrived to deal with when they were held at Hades. If we're talking Third War, then there's even more Orks, and probably buffed from the Waaagh! energy.
The game was based on movie Marines and godly Marines lore which is gak.
In your opinion.
It's also a game and it wouldn't be funny if a single dude with a longlas with a hotshot pack was able to decapitate your dude in one hit. Just ask the Celestial Lions...
It's also a game and it wouldn't be funny if a single Space Marine was able to walk through your whole army and murder everything either.
Works both ways.
Not to mention the Celestial Lions were not attacked by random guardsman snipers - it was assumed to be Vindicares, who are more than capable of this - hell a Vindicare was deployed to kill HORUS. Sniping Apothecaries, who were the targets because they allowed the Chapter to reproduce losses, would have been easy for an Assassin. Not so much for a guardsmen who is probably holding a sniper older than they are.
Edit: not to mention the It irs still present and fighting, poorly, in the area where you are, but they are here. I have to tested it and they seemed to have programmed to do no damage with their lasguns, are going to use that as a source to claim that lasguns cannot hurt anything?
I've seen them kill. And besides, if we assume that the Chaos Guardsmen in the game have the same weapons as normal guardsmen, we can see the damage they cause - negligible, but that fits with Space Marine durability against common las weapons.
If an ork boy can manage to kill a SPESS MERREN with a pointy piece of scrap metal, I imagine it wouldn't be impossible to take one down with modern-day, small arms fire.
Melissia wrote: There's nothing actually superhuman about space Marine reflexes.
Oh really?
Sire, I believe we should save them for–’ The human said nothing more. The front of his face came free with a sickly crack, the flesh and jagged bone crunching in the Night Lord’s fist. Talos ignored the body as it toppled, spilling the insides of its halved skull onto the decking. No one had even seen him move, such was the prophet’s speed, clearing ten metres and vaulting a console table in the time it took a human heart to beat once.
- Void Stalker, page 93
Combat reflexes took over and Rafen drew his bolt pistol in a fraction of a second, his other hand snatching at the hilt of the battle knife resting in a sheath along the line of his spine. He fired a single shot at the High Chaplain, aiming low, aiming to wound, to slow him down. But he might well have called out his intentions in a shout. Astorath swept his blade aside and intercepted the bolt mid-flight with a crack of sound, the round blasting harmlessly into the dirt. Rafen dodged to one side as the weapon’s fast, fluid arc bisected the space where he had been standing, and he rolled, tumbling over red dirt and half-buried rocks.
- Hammer and Bolter 16 - Redeemed, page 231-232
Amaru sprinted from the corridor firing, Maion close behind him. ‘Fall back to the missile silo.’ The Techmarine dropped to one knee to avoid a plasma round, the arms of his servo-harness whirring as they turned to return fire. The Chaos plasma gunner died in a heartbeat, dissected by the merciless cutting lasers.
- Hammer and Bolter 16 page 11-12+16
‘Control your emotions, and move aside,’ Argel Tal growled, ‘or I will kill you.’ ‘You cannot mean that, lord!’ Faster than human eyes could follow, the swords of red iron came free in hissing rasps. The tips of both blades rested against the fat priest’s three chins before he’d even had time to blink. Apparently, the lord did mean it. ‘Yes,’ the deacon stammered. ‘Yes, I…’ ‘Just move,’ Argel Tal suggested.
- The First Heretic, page 264
He pulled the haft-trigger, and his spear’s underslung bolter cracked off a stream of rounds on full-auto. Argel Tal saw it coming. The swords of red iron smashed the first three bolts aside, their power fields strong enough to detonate the shells as they streaked towards the primarch’s heart. The explosions threw the captain to the ground, his grey armour scraping along the stone with the shriek of offended ceramite.
- The First Heretic, page 383
The captain had no time to react – a blur of dark grey shoved her aside. Before she’d even blinked, Arvas was kicking and dangling above the ground, held aloft by Argel Tal’s fist around his throat.
- The First Heretic, page 420
The two warriors flew at one another, each strike flashing aside with bursts from their opposing power fields. Every second saw three strikes made, and each strike snapped back with the weapons’ electrical fields repelling one another after the metal kissed for the briefest moment. The air was rich with the ozone scent of abused power fields in only a matter of heartbeats.
- The First Heretic, page 612
Transhuman dread. Aximand had heard iterators talk of the condition. He’d heard descriptions of it from regular Army officers too. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing: taller and broader than a man could ever be, armoured like a demigod. The singularity of purpose was self-evident. An Adeptus Astartes was designed to fight and kill anything that didn’t annihilate it first. If you saw an Adeptus Astartes, you knew you were in trouble. The appearance alone cowed you with fear.
But to see one move. Apparently that was the real thing. Nothing human-shaped should be so fast, so lithe, so powerful, especially not anything in excess of two metres tall and carrying more armour than four normal men could lift. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing, but the moving fact of one was quite another. The psychologists called it transhuman dread. It froze a man, stuck him to the ground, caused his mind to lock up, made him lose control of bladder and bowel. Something huge and warlike gave pause: something huge and warlike and moving with the speed of a striking snake, that was when you knew that gods moved amongst men, and that there existed a scale of strength and speed beyond anything mortal, and that you were about to die and, if you were really lucking, there might be just enough time to piss yourself first.
- Age of Darkness page 163 (possibly my favourite 40k quote)
As the shell seared past, Rangar threw himself flat behind the low pile of rubble trying to make himself as small a target as possible. That had been close, too close. The shot had almost parted his hair. Only his lightning quick reflexes, and the microsecond's warning provided by his superhuman senses had got him out of the way. If he had ducked half a heartbeat later, his head would have been an exploding fountain of gore and bone.
- Space Wolf Omnibus page 269
I could go on but hopefully the point is clear. Space Marines do not lack for any kind of speed, whether it is raw reflexes, running, leaping, or attacking.
Of course, when GW finally had a chance to show us what space marine combat looks like instead of just talking about it, they gave us something rather different:
With Ash on this one, anyone who thinks SMs are lumbering apes who blindly waddle forward trying to hunt you down is very mistaken.
There are also multiple fluff pieces demonstrating astartes intellectual capabilities (commanding fleets during void battle with thousands of calculations a second, battle strategy planning entire divisions and outcomes and incredible memory abilities) so they arent dummies either.
Peregrine wrote:Of course, when GW finally had a chance to show us what space marine combat looks like instead of just talking about it, they gave us something rather different:
Low blow.
Ratius wrote: With Ash on this one, anyone who thinks SMs are lumbering apes who blindly waddle forward trying to hunt you down is very mistaken.
The person who suggested that was joking based on TT stats (range and movement compared to the size of the models).
My headcanon is that Astartes would fare rather well against modern forces, because anything big and punchy enough to be useful is impractical against such a relatively small target
I've personally put 3 120mm sabot rounds into a target at 1800 meters, and you could cover all three holes with a kevlar helmet.
And I've put a 120mm HEAT round into a target MUCH smaller than a standing man at about the same range.
Walking around the modern battlefield in bright colors and standing 8 feet tall wouldn't be too healthy.
I envy you so much. Putting depleted uranium rails through things has got to be the best feeling in the world. Something like a LR with all it's flat edges - wouldn't stand a dang chance.
Well, taking a quick stock of what weapons I have on hand... I'd settle on my .308. Unfortunately 10 round magazines are the largest I own, but I honestly don't know if I'd get more shots then that off anyways.
At anyrate, it's got 2,648 ft lbs of energy. It's unlikely to penetrate ceramite armor, since that's about the peak level of force that the armor we wear is capable of withstanding.
I keep my armor plates at work as well, so I'd have zero chance of surviving return fire. The vest I have here will have a reasonable chance of stopping handgun fire, but not bolter.
My best hope is that my housing community is largely military and police, so there would be enough of us, laying down enough fire that he'd go down eventually.
If you've got enough other shooters firing Stub, no question he'll drop. Even at BS3 S2 AP- Sv3+, 18 shots, and he's down. Less if anybody has S3+ long guns or S4+ hunting rifles.
I kind of think of it like Paladium RPG Rifts with SDC(Structural damage capacity) and MDC(Mega damage capacity) weapons.
SDC weapons are all of your ancient to current weapons tech and do plenty of damage. From the simple knife doing 1d4 plus physical str bonuses to the surface to air missle doing 1d6x100 damage
MDC is for high tech armors and vehicles. One MDC is roughly equal to 100 SDC but the majority of SDC weapons cannot do any damage to an MDC target. (EG somone fireing a 9mm at a modern tank might scratch the paint but do no "real" damage unless there is some other factor like somehow avoiding the armor.)
A Space Marine is (in his power armor anyway) an MDC creature. The majority of your weapons would just bounce off maby knocking him down and chipping his paint job at most. The few weapons we have that are capable of doing MDC are things like missiles things designed to take out large military assets like tanks. If you have military grade ordinance laying around your house and have the training to use it then you "might" have a chance but considering Space marines are described as crazy smart and fast as well as tough you likely would be spotted trying to set up your HMG or rocket launcher and dealt with long before you got the chance to shoot at him and even if you did there are many occasions of SM dodging bullets and laser fire.....
Other than just pure flight (which is not likely to be successful) 99.9999999% of people could do nothing but die vs a space marine.
Now since a Space Marine is a fantasy creature this opens up the fantastic which allows for the chance "your a wizard Harry" or some such and your newly emergent powers can somehow help you but other than that no single or even group of normal people could defeat a Space marine in combat.
My headcanon is that Astartes would fare rather well against modern forces, because anything big and punchy enough to be useful is impractical against such a relatively small target
I've personally put 3 120mm sabot rounds into a target at 1800 meters, and you could cover all three holes with a kevlar helmet.
And I've put a 120mm HEAT round into a target MUCH smaller than a standing man at about the same range.
Walking around the modern battlefield in bright colors and standing 8 feet tall wouldn't be too healthy.
That said, Strength also has a wide range within each stat. An autopistol and autogun are both S3, corresponding roughly to modern day handguns and intermediate caliber rifles. Well, within that range we can be talking about a 300-400% difference in kinetic energy
Many S4 stubbers in the game look like theyd be more akin to something like .308 or 8mm Mauser while others look like .50BMG weapons.
Looking at S4 stuff, I'd generally probably say that encompasses higher end full power rifle rounds up through heavy .50 BMG rounds, which would fit roughly the same pattern as the smaller S3 weapons, as well as stuff like mortars.
JohnHwangDD wrote: A Shotgun is S4. Lots of Americans have 12ga shotguns. And it's not like they can't get slugs for them.
Given that a Space Marine shotgun (the ones that are actually S4) is also about the same calibre as a boltgun (guess based on the models) and that's closer to a 36-gauge than a 12-gauge I expect these S4 shotguns are rifled and have a lot more propellant in them than than a real shotgun.
Trying to base caliber off the models isnt a great way to do things, bolters come in a a very wide array of sizes and shapes for what are ostensibly the same units, and the scaling isnt realistic either (thats how we get guardmesn with proportions like those of 4 year olds).
We just dont know what caliber shotguns these shotguns are or what ammo they use. The same shotgun firing birdshot may be S3 but S4 when firing buckshot for instance, or IG shotguns may be .410 weenies and Astartes shotguns might be 12 gauges, we just dont really know, the universe doesnt give us much to work with.
JohnHwangDD wrote: A Shotgun is S4. Lots of Americans have 12ga shotguns. And it's not like they can't get slugs for them.
Given that a Space Marine shotgun (the ones that are actually S4) is also about the same calibre as a boltgun (guess based on the models) and that's closer to a 36-gauge than a 12-gauge I expect these S4 shotguns are rifled and have a lot more propellant in them than than a real shotgun.
Wut? You should realize that the larger the number, the smaller the bore of the weapon. Like a 10 gauge is much larger than a 20 gauge. It's based upon the size of the bore if a single round ball was that size and how many it would take to add up to a pound.
JohnHwangDD wrote: A Shotgun is S4. Lots of Americans have 12ga shotguns. And it's not like they can't get slugs for them.
Given that a Space Marine shotgun (the ones that are actually S4) is also about the same calibre as a boltgun (guess based on the models) and that's closer to a 36-gauge than a 12-gauge I expect these S4 shotguns are rifled and have a lot more propellant in them than than a real shotgun.
Wut? You should realize that the larger the number, the smaller the bore of the weapon. Like a 10 gauge is much larger than a 20 gauge. It's based upon the size of the bore if a single round ball was that size and how many it would take to add up to a pound.
Was working on old figures, I'd always quoted the boltgun as .50-caliber (at which point the closest thing on Wikipedia's table of equivalencies is a 36-gauge shotgun) but I double-checked and found that it's actually .75-caliber, at which point the .73-inch diameter of the 12-gauge is the closest real life equivalent.
So I suppose you're right, but for the wrong reason?
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Vaktathi wrote: Trying to base caliber off the models isnt a great way to do things, bolters come in a a very wide array of sizes and shapes for what are ostensibly the same units, and the scaling isnt realistic either (thats how we get guardmesn with proportions like those of 4 year olds).
We just dont know what caliber shotguns these shotguns are or what ammo they use. The same shotgun firing birdshot may be S3 but S4 when firing buckshot for instance, or IG shotguns may be .410 weenies and Astartes shotguns might be 12 gauges, we just dont really know, the universe doesnt give us much to work with.
I checked the bolters and the shotguns on the Deathwatch squad on my desk, operating on the assumption that weapons from the same kit would be about the same scale relative to each other, if nothing else.
For the curious if I were to attempt to assume the weapon is to scale with the model and use an arbitrarily chosen height estimate for the Space Marine (230cm, about 7ft7in) I get a barrel diameter of around five inches.
Which would mean Space Marines are actually walking around with intermediate-caliber naval guns.
JohnHwangDD wrote: A Shotgun is S4. Lots of Americans have 12ga shotguns. And it's not like they can't get slugs for them.
Given that a Space Marine shotgun (the ones that are actually S4) is also about the same calibre as a boltgun (guess based on the models) and that's closer to a 36-gauge than a 12-gauge I expect these S4 shotguns are rifled and have a lot more propellant in them than than a real shotgun.
Wut? You should realize that the larger the number, the smaller the bore of the weapon. Like a 10 gauge is much larger than a 20 gauge. It's based upon the size of the bore if a single round ball was that size and how many it would take to add up to a pound.
Was working on old figures, I'd always quoted the boltgun as .50-caliber (at which point the closest thing on Wikipedia's table of equivalencies is a 36-gauge shotgun) but I double-checked and found that it's actually .75-caliber, at which point the .73-inch diameter of the 12-gauge is the closest real life equivalent.
So I suppose you're right, but for the wrong reason?
No, he's 100% right. That is exactly how shotgun calibers are defined. A 12 ga shotgun has a larger barrel diameter than a 16 ga, which is larger than a 20 ga.
Where you're talking about a "36-gauge", I think you've gone off the rails. As far as I know, there's no such thing as a 36-gauge shotgun.
Matthew wrote: Picture this: You wake up in the middle of the night to a loud boom. You look out the window, and there's a Space Marine standing in the middle of the street, moving down everything that moves. He sees you, and starts walking to your house. Using your knowledge of the Warhammer universe, how would you kill him?
If I'm living in the 40k universe, easy. Armageddon M40 Pattern Autogun. Loaded with a 60 round box magazine of caseless HE or AP ammo that turns a modern Autogun into a mini-Bolter.
JohnHwangDD wrote: A Shotgun is S4. Lots of Americans have 12ga shotguns. And it's not like they can't get slugs for them.
Given that a Space Marine shotgun (the ones that are actually S4) is also about the same calibre as a boltgun (guess based on the models) and that's closer to a 36-gauge than a 12-gauge I expect these S4 shotguns are rifled and have a lot more propellant in them than than a real shotgun.
Wut? You should realize that the larger the number, the smaller the bore of the weapon. Like a 10 gauge is much larger than a 20 gauge. It's based upon the size of the bore if a single round ball was that size and how many it would take to add up to a pound.
Was working on old figures, I'd always quoted the boltgun as .50-caliber (at which point the closest thing on Wikipedia's table of equivalencies is a 36-gauge shotgun) but I double-checked and found that it's actually .75-caliber, at which point the .73-inch diameter of the 12-gauge is the closest real life equivalent.
So I suppose you're right, but for the wrong reason?
No, he's 100% right. That is exactly how shotgun calibers are defined. A 12 ga shotgun has a larger barrel diameter than a 16 ga, which is larger than a 20 ga.
Where you're talking about a "36-gauge", I think you've gone off the rails. As far as I know, there's no such thing as a 36-gauge shotgun.
a boltgun fires .50 caliber armor penetrating explosive rocket projectiles. A 12 gauge slug is exactly 1/2" in diameter which is exactly .50 caliber. There is no such thing as a 36 gauge, and if there was it would be for shooting tweety birds. A 28g is considered a gentleman's shotgun for small gallinaceous birds. A .410 a child/experts weapon for hunting.
The term “gauge” is an old one. It refers to the measure of the bore diameter of the shotgun. With the exception of the .410-bore, which is not a gauge at all (it’s actually a caliber) but often mistakenly called one, the gauge number is equal to the number of lead balls of that bore diameter that add up to weigh one pound. For example, 12-gauge, the most common shotgun gauge today, is the diameter of a ball of lead weighing 1/12-pound of lead, while a 20-gauge is the diameter of a lead ball weighing 1/20-pound of lead.
It’s not hard to see that it takes more lead balls in 20-gauge to equal a pound than it does a 12-gauge, thus, the 20-gauge bore diameter is smaller than a 12-gauge. The common lineup of gauges made today (from smallest to largest) are .410-bore (again, not actually a gauge, but a common shotgun chambering), 28-gauge, 20-gauge, 16-gauge, 12-gauge and 10 gauge. (Shotguns of long ago also included the mammoth 8-gauge and 4-gauge and the smaller 24-gauge and 32-gauge, but these are all collectors’ items now.)
The smaller gauges are generally used for clay target shooting and hunting smaller birds and game animals, while the larger gauges are commonly employed for clay target games, personal defense and for hunting the larger game species like turkey and deer.
I may have not communicated myself clearly enough. I'm aware of how shotgun gauges work. I was under the impression that a boltgun had a barrel diameter of .5 inches. According to the table of shotgun gauges on Wikipedia a 12-gauge shotgun is listed as having a barrel diameter of .73 inches, and when I went down the table to find the gauge with a barrel diameter of 0.5 inches it claimed there was something called a 36-gauge that did. I'm also aware that a 36-gauge is probably a rather uncommon weapon used for shooting tweety birds if at all.
In double-checking the barrel diameter of a boltgun I found it's actually .75 inches and thus the Space Marines' shotguns are quite close to a 12-gauge.
AnomanderRake wrote: I may have not communicated myself clearly enough. I'm aware of how shotgun gauges work. I was under the impression that a boltgun had a barrel diameter of .5 inches. According to the table of shotgun gauges on Wikipedia a 12-gauge shotgun is listed as having a barrel diameter of .73 inches, and when I went down the table to find the gauge with a barrel diameter of 0.5 inches it claimed there was something called a 36-gauge that did. I'm also aware that a 36-gauge is probably a rather uncommon weapon used for shooting tweety birds if at all.
In double-checking the barrel diameter of a boltgun I found it's actually .75 inches and thus the Space Marines' shotguns are quite close to a 12-gauge.
Some of the power fantasies going on here are better than any plot armour
TT ≠ Lore for starters. I suppose we'll be taking movement and shooting in turns too?
Also assuming the biology or technology cannot even work due to our current limited understanding of the universe is just a bit, narrow minded. Imagine just taking something like an Apache gunship to any battle more than 200 years ago, then up the scale by a few factors.
TT ≠ Lore for starters. I suppose we'll be taking movement and shooting in turns too?
Also assuming the biology or technology cannot even work due to our current limited understanding of the universe is just a bit, narrow minded. Imagine just taking something like an Apache gunship to any battle more than 200 years ago, then up the scale by a few factors.
The problem is that half the stuff are things we can do and have tried and they just don't work for very fundamental physics reasons (as opposed to tech level issues) or logistical concerns. A lot of 40k stuff isn't any more advanced than what was available decades ago. Stuff we have in the modern world blows away what any 40k faction is capable of. 40k really isn't so much a scifi universe as a Fantasy universe with a scifi skin, which leads to a lot more reality breaks when compared with the real world.
TT ≠ Lore for starters. I suppose we'll be taking movement and shooting in turns too?
Also assuming the biology or technology cannot even work due to our current limited understanding of the universe is just a bit, narrow minded. Imagine just taking something like an Apache gunship to any battle more than 200 years ago, then up the scale by a few factors.
The problem is that half the stuff are things we can do and have tried and they just don't work for very fundamental physics reasons (as opposed to tech level issues) or logistical concerns. A lot of 40k stuff isn't any more advanced than what was available decades ago. Stuff we have in the modern world blows away what any 40k faction is capable of. 40k really isn't so much a scifi universe as a Fantasy universe with a scifi skin, which leads to a lot more reality breaks when compared with the real world.
Isn't that more of a problem of outdated fluff? Every game release I've played and every novel I've read over the past 10 years has demonstrations of their biological and technological strength is in excess of anything we have today. Then there are poor fluff examples like the Space Marine film which is due to poor directing and a very limited animation budget. 40K has been steadily moving toward sci-fi more than fantasy over the years which is why it has managed to keep afloat.
TT ≠ Lore for starters. I suppose we'll be taking movement and shooting in turns too?
Also assuming the biology or technology cannot even work due to our current limited understanding of the universe is just a bit, narrow minded. Imagine just taking something like an Apache gunship to any battle more than 200 years ago, then up the scale by a few factors.
The problem is that half the stuff are things we can do and have tried and they just don't work for very fundamental physics reasons (as opposed to tech level issues) or logistical concerns. A lot of 40k stuff isn't any more advanced than what was available decades ago. Stuff we have in the modern world blows away what any 40k faction is capable of. 40k really isn't so much a scifi universe as a Fantasy universe with a scifi skin, which leads to a lot more reality breaks when compared with the real world.
Isn't that more of a problem of outdated fluff? Every game release I've played and every novel I've read over the past 10 years has demonstrations of their biological and technological strength is in excess of anything we have today. Then there are poor fluff examples like the Space Marine film which is due to poor directing and a very limited animation budget. 40K has been steadily moving toward sci-fi more than fantasy over the years which is why it has managed to keep afloat.
It's still pretty Fantasy-ish, many basic 40k weapons that are the staple of Imperial armies like missile launcher, mortars, autocannons, Assault Cannons, Flamers, etc have direct real world equivalents that we can compare to, other stuff like the Boltgun suffers because of basic physics issues, "RPG" guns like Bolters are incredibly inaccurate because the rocket motor is still only starting accelerating (they're also very light and have effectively zero recoil as a result) at the muzzle and don't reach max velocity until like 30ft or more beyond the muzzle, and are hence wildly inaccurate (like...it's hard to hit a person 100 feet away inaccurate), and adding booster charge to combat that makes the rocket engine pointless because it's easier and more effective to just make it a conventional projectile at that point.
Most 40k stuff is either some sort of jumped-up Fantasy analogy (e.g. anything running around with a sword, the entire Grey Knight line, actual Daemons, etc) or is built around a WW1/WW2 combat paradigm. Nothing 40k has resembles anything like modern detection and C3 systems, 40k has no artillery that can match the modern worlds artillery capabilities in terms of landing shells within a couple meters of a target from dozens of miles away within a couple minutes of the call-in with a synchronized barrage, or a tank that can move at highway speeds and engage targets at 2km+ distance with an almost 100% hit rate while both tank and target are moving at highway speeds at night and engaging 10 targets in a minute, or aircraft that engage each other from dozens or hundreds of miles away with beyond-visual-range missile weapons through detection data fed to them by an AWACS aircraft (while 40k air-to-air combat is pretty much exclusively WW2 dogfight style engagements with every faction). Stuff like that.
A lot of the newer stuff coming out is far more Steampunk than really Scifi (e.g. the Mechanicus), and that's really kind of where 40k fares best, but it's still not really like hard scifi stuff.
Personally, I think a normal human being would kill a superhuman whose body armor is like a tank by getting the hell out of there and letting their country's military solve the problem with their vast array of anti-tank weapons.
The most deadly weapon known to Space Marines according to the Deathwatch (RPG) Core rules? Stairs. Since the armor class doesn't negate falling damage. A simple flight of stairs forces the players to make numerous checks because of their unwieldly power armor and even failing one of them and falling down a flight of stairs can result in half of your health in damage.
If your falling heights greater than a stairwell your more or less automatically dead. We actually lost one player in Terminator armor to a flight of stairs. No joke. May the Emperor protect his soul.
Gamgee wrote: The most deadly weapon known to Space Marines according to the Deathwatch (RPG) Core rules? Stairs. Since the armor class doesn't negate falling damage. A simple flight of stairs forces the players to make numerous checks because of their unwieldly power armor and even failing one of them and falling down a flight of stairs can result in half of your health in damage.
If your falling heights greater than a stairwell your more or less automatically dead. We actually lost one player in Terminator armor to a flight of stairs. No joke. May the Emperor protect his soul.
The size of the boots are impractical for household stairs. They'd have to be at a slant to fit, or be on their tip-toes.
That Space Marine's not gonna die from falling down stairs. He's gonna die because if he goes down into the basement he can't get out again.
Oh, and the stairs might not take the weight of the armor.
Space Marines, the most elite fighting force of the galaxy, permanently defeated and now doomed to a slow death by starvation by the standard design of 20th century homes. And no one was even home.
