Im fact, arguably any Primarch. Sheer physique wins out. Even the 'slow' ones could outlast her and Fulgrim would be an utter nightmare (a monstrous brite compared to her and yet almost as fast).
Kaldor Draigo too because the way they write him he is really OP.
I am assuming literal gods are excluded.
Also psykers overall. Lelith has no psychic defense.
She's only WS 9 on the tabletop. That means that she's on par with Daemon Princes, less than a Bloodthirster, Solitaire, or Skulltaker, and barely above Assassins.
JNAProductions wrote: She's only WS 9 on the tabletop. That means that she's on par with Daemon Princes, less than a Bloodthirster, Solitaire, or Skulltaker, and barely above Assassins.
And a space marine is worth less than 3 guardsmen. Tabletop is a horrible way to try and judge the strength of characters in the lore.
I would say psykers would have a pretty good time of it. Abbadon would probably win I would think.
The Beast, given his gargantuan size and armament, would wreck her and as skilled as she is, she's won't be able to pop his defenses.
I can't see her taking down Primarchs given their robust physique.
High/Grand Harlequin since I recall her in Valedor getting chills from mentally thinking of testing her mettle against him and seeing him as a someone who could possibly defeat her.
Castellan Crowe and Skulltaker are another two contenders, both noted duellists.
She bested one of the best duelist in the Adeptus Astartes history (if not the best) in an epic 5 hours fight armed with a knife in which she got a slight cut (her first and only wound). She killed with ease Hive Tyrant, Genestealer Patriarch, Chaos champion, etc. Its even mentionned that daemon lords and perhaspe even gods are watching her performance on pirated psychic crystals who are sold at high price by corsairs. Considering this reputation, you got to be more than badass to think you got a chance. She had more stamina than a Space Marine Champion known for his incredible endurence and mental fortitude and stamina is far from being her greatest quality...
Lelith herself regarded the Harlequin King as a fairly solid 'nope'. Unfortunately, we've seen and heard literally nothing else about this character since.
Im fact, arguably any Primarch. Sheer physique wins out. Even the 'slow' ones could outlast her and Fulgrim would be an utter nightmare (a monstrous brite compared to her and yet almost as fast).
Kaldor Draigo too because the way they write him he is really OP.
Lelith has gone up against more hulking physiques than Primarchs and always triumphed. Her fights take forever as she tires out her opponent, slowly wounding and weakening them with dozens of nasty blows but that might be because she is a showman who wants to drag things out for the audience. We have no record of her killing anything she wanted to kill fast.
Rumor is that Jaghatai Khan is a DE captive, endlessly fighting in the arena but never allowed to die. If that is the case, it seems likely that Lelith would have faced him.
Im fact, arguably any Primarch. Sheer physique wins out. Even the 'slow' ones could outlast her and Fulgrim would be an utter nightmare (a monstrous brite compared to her and yet almost as fast).
Kaldor Draigo too because the way they write him he is really OP.
Lelith has gone up against more hulking physiques than Primarchs and always triumphed. Her fights take forever as she tires out her opponent, slowly wounding and weakening them with dozens of nasty blows but that might be because she is a showman who wants to drag things out for the audience. We have no record of her killing anything she wanted to kill fast.
Rumor is that Jaghatai Khan is a DE captive, endlessly fighting in the arena but never allowed to die. If that is the case, it seems likely that Lelith would have faced him.
Kaldor Draigo too because the way they write him he is really OP.
My favourite piece of headcanon about Kaldor Draigo is that he's not actually a supernaturally brilliant warrior, he's mad as a box of frogs from warp exposure. Whenever he pops out of the warp, he goes rambling on at length about all of his fantastical feats to anyone within earshot, all of which are utter works of fiction
And a space marine is worth less than 3 guardsmen. Tabletop is a horrible way to try and judge the strength of characters in the lore.
Personally, I view the tabletop as the ultimate leveller. You can have mega-fanboy A write up a novel where lascannon rounds bounce harmlessly off his favourite back-flipping power-armoured mary sues. Anything written in a novel can be written off as Imperial propaganda, or at least suspected as such (explaining some of the more ridiculous things you can read).
However, on the tabletop it's cold hard stats.
Personally, I find it quite fitting that a Marine is worth 3 Guardsmen. It fits their status as poster-boys of the Imperium, meant more for inspiring the masses than actually swaying the course of galactic conflicts (the only way to explain their woefully small numbers on a galactic scale).
Kaldor Draigo too because the way they write him he is really OP.
My favourite piece of headcanon about Kaldor Draigo is that he's not actually a supernaturally brilliant warrior, he's mad as a box of frogs from warp exposure. Whenever he pops out of the warp, he goes rambling on at length about all of his fantastical feats to anyone within earshot, all of which are utter works of fiction
And a space marine is worth less than 3 guardsmen. Tabletop is a horrible way to try and judge the strength of characters in the lore.
Personally, I view the tabletop as the ultimate leveller. You can have mega-fanboy A write up a novel where lascannon rounds bounce harmlessly off his favourite back-flipping power-armoured mary sues. Anything written in a novel can be written off as Imperial propaganda, or at least suspected as such (explaining some of the more ridiculous things you can read).
However, on the tabletop it's cold hard stats.
Personally, I find it quite fitting that a Marine is worth 3 Guardsmen. It fits their status as poster-boys of the Imperium, meant more for inspiring the masses than actually swaying the course of galactic conflicts (the only way to explain their woefully small numbers on a galactic scale).
Hmmm, Lelith could be one of the few people who could legitimately beat Lucius I think.
If she rolfstomps him so hard that it's boring, he's not coming back
Wouldn't she still enjoy killing him? Just because you've been something for a long freaking time doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed.
I actually disagree that the tabletop is the defining setting. If scatbikes were as strong as they were on the tabletop, Eldar would conquer the galaxy, and if the tyranids were as woefully as ineffective in the fluff thats another xenos species that won't matter to the imperium. As a balancing factor, it isn't that screwed, but I am sure that Lelith could best a daemon prince. a main reason I'm gonna grab her model up, she is the best of the best, WS9 doesn't cut the mustard imho when it comes to fluff representation
Wouldn't she still enjoy killing him? Just because you've been something for a long freaking time doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed.
I actually disagree that the tabletop is the defining setting. If scatbikes were as strong as they were on the tabletop, Eldar would conquer the galaxy, and if the tyranids were as woefully as ineffective in the fluff thats another xenos species that won't matter to the imperium. As a balancing factor, it isn't that screwed, but I am sure that Lelith could best a daemon prince. a main reason I'm gonna grab her model up, she is the best of the best, WS9 doesn't cut the mustard imho when it comes to fluff representation
Depends if he put up a good enough fight. If it was utterly trivial, she might not feel anything.
Only might, mind you. Not an absolute statement.
The thing about the tabletop is it depicts the exceptionally rare circumstance that the forces on either side are (supposed to be) evenly matched.
Eldar could conquer the galaxy, if there wasn't a bajillion guardsmen for every Scatbike they can muster.
The Tyranids are woefully ineffective on an individual basis, but overwhelm their enemies by dropping a planet's-weight of biomorphs on their heads and syphoning up the resultant human-paste.
Ideally, the codices would actually be balanced against each other to accurately represent equally powerful forces on the tabletop, but that's primarily a points-costing mechanic. I truly believe that a T4 marine is tougher than a T3 Guardsman, but not quite as resistant to harm as a T5 Grotesque. It might be a little course a scale, but it works
Then, of course, there's some codex changes that do seem a little odd (like muscle-bound genetically-altered Kroot being as strong as guardsmen), but I suppose I'll be accused of being selective there
As for Lelith's WS9, it's not that that makes her so deadly on the tabletop. It's the disarm special rule. Pretty hard for Abaddon to win that duel when Drach'nyen's halfway down a gully somewhere.
Ynneadwraith wrote: As for Lelith's WS9, it's not that that makes her so deadly on the tabletop. It's the disarm special rule. Pretty hard for Abaddon to win that duel when Drach'nyen's halfway down a gully somewhere..
Lelith doesn't have a disarm; that's Jain Zar, the Phoenix Lord of the Howling Banshees. Actually, that right there is someone who may give Lelith a run for her money.
For those who said Lucius : if Lucius take her place, it means that he LOST, therefore, that she WON. It doesn't answer the question of the thread, which can be translated as : Name one character that is able to out-class Lelith in close combat. And IMO Lucius would get raped by Lelith in that aspect. They play too much on the same skillset (speed and skills) even though he is Astarte (with a strength a thoughness advantage he doesn't put forward), in which Lelith is vastly superior.
Engrenages wrote: For those who said Lucius : if Lucius take her place, it means that he LOST, therefore, that she WON. It doesn't answer the question of the thread, which can be translated as : Name one character that is able to out-class Lelith in close combat. And IMO Lucius would get raped by Lelith in that aspect. They play too much on the same skillset (speed and skills) even though he is Astarte (with a strength a thoughness advantage he doesn't put forward), in which Lelith is vastly superior.
If we're going by the fluff, I think a lot of the duels here are really selling Lelith short.
Not only has she survived in the arenas of Commorragh since before Vect rose to power, but she's done that while getting struck precisely once.
She's been fighting for much longer than (nearly) all of the fighters listed up here and only a single fighter has ever managed to touch her. She's that fast. Not 'she got hit by a thunder hammer but her power armour saved her'. Not 'the enemy's sword pierced through her arm, but in a feat of martial strength
For in excess of 8000 years she has been fighting the most dangerous things the Dark Eldar can lay their hands on, day-in day-out, without a scratch. Oh, and all the while equipped with knives, pointy hair, a latex bikini and a zero-tolerance policy to combat drugs.
Going by the fluff, I can't see much below daemon-prince Angron, or Magnus with psychic shenanigans, having the odds of beating her.
Oh, and as for the Grand Harlequin, she was more intrigued by the fact that she might lose, rather than certain that she would...
That's why on the tabletop she's pretty much never good in any situation. Every character has feats like that. Calgar lifted a Pylon and used it to shoot gak.
Also the easy answer is Typhus. She can't wear him out because he's just a pile of ooze and has the benefits of being a Psyker and insane durability. On the tabletop this translates as well.
Ynneadwraith wrote: If we're going by the fluff, I think a lot of the duels here are really selling Lelith short.
Not only has she survived in the arenas of Commorragh since before Vect rose to power, but she's done that while getting struck precisely once.
She's been fighting for much longer than (nearly) all of the fighters listed up here and only a single fighter has ever managed to touch her. She's that fast. Not 'she got hit by a thunder hammer but her power armour saved her'. Not 'the enemy's sword pierced through her arm, but in a feat of martial strength
For in excess of 8000 years she has been fighting the most dangerous things the Dark Eldar can lay their hands on, day-in day-out, without a scratch. Oh, and all the while equipped with knives, pointy hair, a latex bikini and a zero-tolerance policy to combat drugs.
Going by the fluff, I can't see much below daemon-prince Angron, or Magnus with psychic shenanigans, having the odds of beating her.
Oh, and as for the Grand Harlequin, she was more intrigued by the fact that she might lose, rather than certain that she would...
She's badass
Your forgetting one thing.....smashf*ucker does not care, he will smash you any ways.
That's why on the tabletop she's pretty much never good in any situation. Every character has feats like that. Calgar lifted a Pylon and used it to shoot gak.
Also the easy answer is Typhus. She can't wear him out because he's just a pile of ooze and has the benefits of being a Psyker and insane durability. On the tabletop this translates as well.
We're not talking about warfare, we're talking about a 1-on-1 duel, which is exactly what happens in an arena. It's exactly her playing field.
Calgar lifted a Pylon and used it to shoot stuff? Oh good lord. Whoever wrote that should hang their heads in shame. Saying that, it's not like it's an individual feat that someone wrote about her in a dubious-quality BL book. It's the sole foundation of her character.
I'm not sure Typhus would have a chance, aside from the psyker stuff. He might be fantastically durable, but if he can't hit her she'll still chop him up into itty little bits.
However, after gushing about her, something's struck me. Given the nature of the Dark Eldar, and the risk that psykers pose in Commorragh, I doubt they'd let captives in the arenas use their psychic powers. If there's anything that could be used to best her, it'd have to be that rather than martial skill.
That is going on fluff though. Personally, I'd agree with you on the rules front. Lelith's rules seem to be tailor-made for mulching up hordes in short order rather than duelling.
Wouldn't she still enjoy killing him? Just because you've been something for a long freaking time doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed.
I actually disagree that the tabletop is the defining setting. If scatbikes were as strong as they were on the tabletop, Eldar would conquer the galaxy, and if the tyranids were as woefully as ineffective in the fluff thats another xenos species that won't matter to the imperium. As a balancing factor, it isn't that screwed, but I am sure that Lelith could best a daemon prince. a main reason I'm gonna grab her model up, she is the best of the best, WS9 doesn't cut the mustard imho when it comes to fluff representation
Depends if he put up a good enough fight. If it was utterly trivial, she might not feel anything.
Only might, mind you. Not an absolute statement.
The thing about the tabletop is it depicts the exceptionally rare circumstance that the forces on either side are (supposed to be) evenly matched.
Eldar could conquer the galaxy, if there wasn't a bajillion guardsmen for every Scatbike they can muster.
The Tyranids are woefully ineffective on an individual basis, but overwhelm their enemies by dropping a planet's-weight of biomorphs on their heads and syphoning up the resultant human-paste.
Ideally, the codices would actually be balanced against each other to accurately represent equally powerful forces on the tabletop, but that's primarily a points-costing mechanic. I truly believe that a T4 marine is tougher than a T3 Guardsman, but not quite as resistant to harm as a T5 Grotesque. It might be a little course a scale, but it works
Then, of course, there's some codex changes that do seem a little odd (like muscle-bound genetically-altered Kroot being as strong as guardsmen), but I suppose I'll be accused of being selective there
As for Lelith's WS9, it's not that that makes her so deadly on the tabletop. It's the disarm special rule. Pretty hard for Abaddon to win that duel when Drach'nyen's halfway down a gully somewhere.
That does depend on whether the pre-heresy Emperor was as is written and not propaganda/religious dogma of course
Tanked up Horus would probably nuke her as well. Same with Sanguinius (wasn't he supposed to be an exceptional swordfighter. Did well enough against tanked-up Horus either way).
That does depend on whether the pre-heresy Emperor was as is written and not propaganda/religious dogma of course
Tanked up Horus would probably nuke her as well. Same with Sanguinius (wasn't he supposed to be an exceptional swordfighter. Did well enough against tanked-up Horus either way).
i guess she would get destroyed by any alpha level or above psyker..Tigurius, Mephiston, Draigo, Malcador, Magnus etc.
That does depend on whether the pre-heresy Emperor was as is written and not propaganda/religious dogma of course
Tanked up Horus would probably nuke her as well. Same with Sanguinius (wasn't he supposed to be an exceptional swordfighter. Did well enough against tanked-up Horus either way).
i guess she would get destroyed by any alpha level or above psyker..Tigurius, Mephiston, Draigo, Malcador, Magnus etc.
Well even a Beta would wreck her, Delta/Gamma would be a serious challenge if trained in battle situations (depending on the nature of their powers, they may not be fast enough andj ust get cut before they can muster the focus to use them).
Not something we'd really have the answer to in the fluff, but it'd be her only chance against a powerful psyker.
That's in the absence of me knowing any fluff stories where she fights a psyker. I know the Legion of the Damned proved troublesome...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I suppose we should establish something first: what the defences are against psychic assault.
Is it purely stuff like psychic hoods, crucibles of malediction and other such stuff, or can 'force of will' prohibit a psychic attack
I suppose that's what the Adamantium Will special rule is, which I don't think Lelith has.
So, odd position she's in. Will chop anything non-psyker (or not quick enough on the draw psyker-wise), but Fateweaver with his WS2 would blow her brains out.
I suppose Fateweaver with his WS2 would blow most people's brains out tbh...
Do you think she could even beat pre-heresy Emperor in an all out fight?
The Emperor would literally just think her out of existence
I think if the Emperor didn't use psykic powers(probably by choice, as there is no real way to suppress a psyker of that power) she would have a good chance. Big E wasnt a fantastic fighter, sure he was alright, but he wasnt exceptionally quick or powerful.
The Emperor was a crazy invincible close combatant- better than Sanguinius (who is only bested by Horus because of all the bloodthirsters he'd been fighting). The emperor can use his psychic powers from across the universe, so if buff casting was really all he was good for, he'd never have boarded Horus' ship.
As for psykers, the 2nd ed inquisitor summons a vortex and she is obliterated. Same goes for Grey Knights She has a 5+ save to dispel it- so long as she has the right cards that turn. No save vs. the actual vortex (we do not care how invulnerable your save is). Hell, we could just have a swooping hawk with a vortex grenade (which , by the way, beasts absolutely anything ever, due to their ability to be non-targetable until they drop their all-things-die-with-no-save grenade.
LightKing wrote: Can someone explain why the primarchs would beat her
Because I've never heard of Lelith deciding that the Kraken that wraps itself around all of Fenris was too small and needed to be thrown back. Honestly, Russ's fluff is pretty far past the invincible level that most primarchs aspire to. I mean, no one gets close to Russ' fluff- not even the other invincible close combatants like Angron and Kharn.
That's the trouble with the fluff- there are a lot of superlative invincible warriors out there. A good number of them are actually the best close combatants that there have ever been (and I guess the universe is just large enough that it doesn't matter that the west has over a dozen fastest guns). She's far from the first 'bestest warrior ever' and she won't be the last.
And honestly, I don't see how she's any more unbeatable than any of those other unbeatable characters. I mean, stat-wise (which is fluff) she's not really better than a Harlequin Solitaire. And according to the rules, an Avatar is simply better than her at close combat (WS9 vs WS10- meaning the Av is the more skilled with a CC weapon). The movie marine sergeant would kick her ass (and remember- movie marines are fluff corrected statlines that all space marines should have in comparison to everything else in the game). Even Jain Zarr would kill her on the charge, and she ranks pretty low on the bestfighterometer.
LightKing wrote: Can someone explain why the primarchs would beat her
They are basically unstoppable demi gods that's why. Even the weakest primarch fighter, Lorgar, beat a Bloodthirster. They are utter monsters that Lelith could in no way compete with
Oh, and she's got nothing against actual armor, so a dreadnought just wrecks her.
I'd go with that CC specialist Space Wolf one with the cheesy name- what was it? Murder-something- maybe Murderface?
But we do have stats for Angron
He's WS9 (her equal) Str 7 (WAY BETTER) with 6 Attacks (also better). He's toughness 6, which means she will have a really hard time hurting him, while he's more than doubled her toughness, so if one of those 6 attacks connects (and they do on a 4+) she has died.
In fact, her statline seems to reflect her ability to pick on those weaker than her.. But she really can't stand up to someone on her skill level.
Many named characters or powerful entities would probably have fun breaking every bone in her body or dismembering her integrally. She's really not that much of a powerful character.
LightKing wrote: Can someone explain why the primarchs would beat her
They are basically unstoppable demi gods that's why. Even the weakest primarch fighter, Lorgar, beat a Bloodthirster. They are utter monsters that Lelith could in no way compete with
Except that they would never be able to hit her in the first place.
odinsgrandson wrote: Oh, and she's got nothing against actual armor, so a dreadnought just wrecks her.
I'd go with that CC specialist Space Wolf one with the cheesy name- what was it? Murder-something- maybe Murderface?
But we do have stats for Angron
He's WS9 (her equal) Str 7 (WAY BETTER) with 6 Attacks (also better). He's toughness 6, which means she will have a really hard time hurting him, while he's more than doubled her toughness, so if one of those 6 attacks connects (and they do on a 4+) she has died.
In fact, her statline seems to reflect her ability to pick on those weaker than her.. But she really can't stand up to someone on her skill level.
How does initiative compare, though? Her only big advantage against a Primarch is going to be speed, anyway, so that's kind of important.
Ynneadwraith wrote: If we're going by the fluff, I think a lot of the duels here are really selling Lelith short.
Not only has she survived in the arenas of Commorragh since before Vect rose to power, but she's done that while getting struck precisely once.
She's been fighting for much longer than (nearly) all of the fighters listed up here and only a single fighter has ever managed to touch her. She's that fast. Not 'she got hit by a thunder hammer but her power armour saved her'. Not 'the enemy's sword pierced through her arm, but in a feat of martial strength
For in excess of 8000 years she has been fighting the most dangerous things the Dark Eldar can lay their hands on, day-in day-out, without a scratch. Oh, and all the while equipped with knives, pointy hair, a latex bikini and a zero-tolerance policy to combat drugs.
Going by the fluff, I can't see much below daemon-prince Angron, or Magnus with psychic shenanigans, having the odds of beating her.
Oh, and as for the Grand Harlequin, she was more intrigued by the fact that she might lose, rather than certain that she would...
She's badass
Finally, some one gets it. Short of Primarcks, there are no named Space Marine characters here that are remotely capable of matching her 1 on 1 in a fight, she's just too fast and too skilled for them and is very much capable of finding a way to get her blades between those power armour plates.
Psychers are a no go though, like any Dark Eldar she has no deffence against that.
LightKing wrote: Can someone explain why the primarchs would beat her
They are basically unstoppable demi gods that's why. Even the weakest primarch fighter, Lorgar, beat a Bloodthirster. They are utter monsters that Lelith could in no way compete with
Except that they would never be able to hit her in the first place.
The Primarchs were all incredibly fast as well, much faster than space marines. Ones like Angron could blindly swing until he hit her, magnus could crush her with his mind, etc
odinsgrandson wrote: Oh, and she's got nothing against actual armor, so a dreadnought just wrecks her.
I'd go with that CC specialist Space Wolf one with the cheesy name- what was it? Murder-something- maybe Murderface?
But we do have stats for Angron
He's WS9 (her equal) Str 7 (WAY BETTER) with 6 Attacks (also better). He's toughness 6, which means she will have a really hard time hurting him, while he's more than doubled her toughness, so if one of those 6 attacks connects (and they do on a 4+) she has died.
In fact, her statline seems to reflect her ability to pick on those weaker than her.. But she really can't stand up to someone on her skill level.
How does initiative compare, though? Her only big advantage against a Primarch is going to be speed, anyway, so that's kind of important.
His initiative is 7, I have no idea what Liliths is
Ratius wrote: Corswain, Sigismund, Argel Tal in GV mode?
Who was the guy Talos used to square off against in the cage fights in the Soul Hunter series?
His initiative is 7, I have no idea what Liliths is
9. I can only think of 3 models in the game with a higher initiative of 10, that's the Solitaire, the Avatar of Khaine (shame he never actually shows it in the fluff) and the Keeper of Secrets.
His initiative is 7, I have no idea what Liliths is
9. I can only think of 3 models in the game with a higher initiative of 10, that's the Solitaire, the Avatar of Khaine (shame he never actually shows it in the fluff) and the Keeper of Secrets.
Even with a higher initiative, her model couldn't do enough damage to Angron before he smashed her on the tabletop
His initiative is 7, I have no idea what Liliths is
9. I can only think of 3 models in the game with a higher initiative of 10, that's the Solitaire, the Avatar of Khaine (shame he never actually shows it in the fluff) and the Keeper of Secrets.
Even with a higher initiative, her model couldn't do enough damage to Angron before he smashed her on the tabletop
Oh, no doubt about that, I'm just pointing out that in fluff terms that translates to being significantly faster, and speed is a hell of an advantage in a fight. (Again, only Solitaires ever seem to show it, though. Avatars and Keepers never seem to be uber-fast.)
Honestly, I wouldn't fancy Lelith against something like Angron in the fluff either.
Though on that note, if you want a Dark Eldar model that could take a primarch on the tabletop, Asdrubael Vect was a fair shout. He and his pimpmobile were absolutely crazy back when he had rules. I'd fancy him to do it in the fluff, too, if only because he wouldn't actually fight said Primarch in favour of dropping some kind of insane WMD on their face several years before the fight was even due to begin.
His initiative is 7, I have no idea what Liliths is
9. I can only think of 3 models in the game with a higher initiative of 10, that's the Solitaire, the Avatar of Khaine (shame he never actually shows it in the fluff) and the Keeper of Secrets.
Even with a higher initiative, her model couldn't do enough damage to Angron before he smashed her on the tabletop
Oh, no doubt about that, I'm just pointing out that in fluff terms that translates to being significantly faster, and speed is a hell of an advantage in a fight. (Again, only Solitaires ever seem to show it, though. Avatars and Keepers never seem to be uber-fast.)
Honestly, I wouldn't fancy Lelith against something like Angron in the fluff either.
Though on that note, if you want a Dark Eldar model that could take a primarch on the tabletop, Asdrubael Vect was a fair shout. He and his pimpmobile were absolutely crazy back when he had rules. I'd fancy him to do it in the fluff, too, if only because he wouldn't actually fight said Primarch in favour of dropping some kind of insane WMD on their face several years before the fight was even due to begin.
Initiative is not the only stat that depicts speed though, Attacks goes along with it. Think of wild west gunfights. Initiative would be how quickly you can draw and fire that first round, whereas Attacks would loosely depict how many rounds you can fire in a given timeframe.
I could be wrong, but I believe Angron has more Attacks than Lelith. So she may be quicker on the draw but it could be argued that he actually strikes faster than she does. Of course this is all while using TT as a basis for fluff, which just doesn't really work.
Yeah he has one more attack (unless she's outnumbered), but Lelith also has Fleet, and on top of that a special invulnerable save purely to signify how fast she is and how hard it is to hit her as a result (4+ against shooting and 3+ against melee). She's clearly intended to be faster.
odinsgrandson wrote: Oh, and she's got nothing against actual armor, so a dreadnought just wrecks her.
I'd go with that CC specialist Space Wolf one with the cheesy name- what was it? Murder-something- maybe Murderface?
But we do have stats for Angron
He's WS9 (her equal) Str 7 (WAY BETTER) with 6 Attacks (also better). He's toughness 6, which means she will have a really hard time hurting him, while he's more than doubled her toughness, so if one of those 6 attacks connects (and they do on a 4+) she has died.
In fact, her statline seems to reflect her ability to pick on those weaker than her.. But she really can't stand up to someone on her skill level.
How does initiative compare, though? Her only big advantage against a Primarch is going to be speed, anyway, so that's kind of important.
I think Angron's initiative is 7. But it is a non-issue.
Let's say she goes first. She gets 4 attacks, because she's not picking on losers. She hits with half of them (4+) and now needs a 6+ to wound. Let's say whe gets one, now he's only got around four more wounds.
Now he strikes back at her. Six attacks, hit on 4+, wound on 2+. If even one of those wounds gets through, she's dead. So it doesn't matter who got to go first, she doesn't stand a chance.
If you want to really consider TT as basis for fluff, you need to go with the ones where they stated "these are the rules that match the fluff." Ie- Movie Marines. A Movie Marine sergeant can kill her- and remember Movie Marines are Space Marines according to the black library fluff. So most space marines from the black library books can off her.
If you want to really consider TT as basis for fluff, you need to go with the ones where they stated "these are the rules that match the fluff." Ie- Movie Marines. A Movie Marine sergeant can kill her- and remember Movie Marines are Space Marines according to the black library fluff. So most space marines from the black library books can off her.
Funnily enough, in the clips from Dawn of War they were showing at the top to represent the movie the marines would be in, the space marines aren't actually too good. In the close combat, they pretty much lose a marine for every one or two orks killed, and even lose a Dreadnought despite the Orks having no armor support.
odinsgrandson wrote: Oh, and she's got nothing against actual armor, so a dreadnought just wrecks her.
I'd go with that CC specialist Space Wolf one with the cheesy name- what was it? Murder-something- maybe Murderface?
But we do have stats for Angron
He's WS9 (her equal) Str 7 (WAY BETTER) with 6 Attacks (also better). He's toughness 6, which means she will have a really hard time hurting him, while he's more than doubled her toughness, so if one of those 6 attacks connects (and they do on a 4+) she has died.
In fact, her statline seems to reflect her ability to pick on those weaker than her.. But she really can't stand up to someone on her skill level.
How does initiative compare, though? Her only big advantage against a Primarch is going to be speed, anyway, so that's kind of important.
I think Angron's initiative is 7. But it is a non-issue.
Let's say she goes first. She gets 4 attacks, because she's not picking on losers. She hits with half of them (4+) and now needs a 6+ to wound. Let's say whe gets one, now he's only got around four more wounds.
Now he strikes back at her. Six attacks, hit on 4+, wound on 2+. If even one of those wounds gets through, she's dead. So it doesn't matter who got to go first, she doesn't stand a chance.
If you want to really consider TT as basis for fluff, you need to go with the ones where they stated "these are the rules that match the fluff." Ie- Movie Marines. A Movie Marine sergeant can kill her- and remember Movie Marines are Space Marines according to the black library fluff. So most space marines from the black library books can off her.
To do that you'd need to make rules matching the fluff for Lelith as well.....
odinsgrandson wrote: Oh, and she's got nothing against actual armor, so a dreadnought just wrecks her.
I'd go with that CC specialist Space Wolf one with the cheesy name- what was it? Murder-something- maybe Murderface?
But we do have stats for Angron
He's WS9 (her equal) Str 7 (WAY BETTER) with 6 Attacks (also better). He's toughness 6, which means she will have a really hard time hurting him, while he's more than doubled her toughness, so if one of those 6 attacks connects (and they do on a 4+) she has died.
In fact, her statline seems to reflect her ability to pick on those weaker than her.. But she really can't stand up to someone on her skill level.
How does initiative compare, though? Her only big advantage against a Primarch is going to be speed, anyway, so that's kind of important.
I think Angron's initiative is 7. But it is a non-issue.
Let's say she goes first. She gets 4 attacks, because she's not picking on losers. She hits with half of them (4+) and now needs a 6+ to wound. Let's say whe gets one, now he's only got around four more wounds.
Now he strikes back at her. Six attacks, hit on 4+, wound on 2+. If even one of those wounds gets through, she's dead. So it doesn't matter who got to go first, she doesn't stand a chance.
If you want to really consider TT as basis for fluff, you need to go with the ones where they stated "these are the rules that match the fluff." Ie- Movie Marines. A Movie Marine sergeant can kill her- and remember Movie Marines are Space Marines according to the black library fluff. So most space marines from the black library books can off her.
To do that you'd need to make rules matching the fluff for Lelith as well.....
I mean then the same for Angron as well, the dude killed a bunch of Eldar when he was an infant and stopped a Titan from crushing him with his bare hands
It's fluff there is not a clear answer and it contradices itself.
According to fluff a Wraithlord Yes a *nimble* Wraithlord was able to slaughter all of Fullgrim Phoenix Guard and didn't killed him with a power fist to the chest because plot armor Daemonic weapon protection....
so now according to tabletop values a Wraithlord with WS4 I4 and A3 it's a deadly threat to primarch lvl fighters.... moronic isn't it?
Ghazzy. If we're going to judge by fluff alone, Lilith has no way of beating him as long as Gork or possible Mork have an interest in this greenskin - and they do. He can literally take a hail of bullets to the face and continue walking forward and kicking gitz around by this point.
Yeah this is the problem with debating fluff. Every faction will have a big hero type that's made out to seem completely unbeatable.
That's why I head back to the crunch to settle these things (although there are issues with understrength codices like Ork s, 'nids and DEldar).
There's an aspect of Newton's Flaming Laser Sword* to this.
*a philosophical razor, like Occam's Razor, that postulates: 'that which cannot be settled by experiment is not worth debating'
It's philosophy vs statistics
Although it does make me a little happy that a fan-made character (Chapter Master Smashf*cker) is statistically one of the most deadly close combat combatants in the entire galaxy
Castellan (Apparently his first name is Garran) Crowe would smash Lelith with or without use of his psychic powers. Insanely good dualist with even more over the top power in a challenge.
Entirely unrelated but for now on I'm going to imagine every time I have Crowe cast Cleansing Flame that he is in fact just shouting Demacia! and spinning to win.
Ynneadwraith wrote: Yeah this is the problem with debating fluff. Every faction will have a big hero type that's made out to seem completely unbeatable.
That's why I head back to the crunch to settle these things (although there are issues with understrength codices like Ork s, 'nids and DEldar).
There's an aspect of Newton's Flaming Laser Sword* to this.
*a philosophical razor, like Occam's Razor, that postulates: 'that which cannot be settled by experiment is not worth debating'
It's philosophy vs statistics
Although it does make me a little happy that a fan-made character (Chapter Master Smashf*cker) is statistically one of the most deadly close combat combatants in the entire galaxy
Crunch-wise there are a LOT of things that beat Lilith.
It's a bit harder to calculate as she can dance around for some time trying to stack power from pain to gain bonuses - but at the same time, she can take some wounds from enemy shooting attacks. Basically any marine or even IG character has a nice chance of insta-killing her with a krak nade if they get within 8".
So, let's pick Lucius. He has a krak nade and a ~35% chance to insta-kill Lelith every time he throws it. Than when she charges (if she does manage to do it), he overwatches her with a doom siren for extra d3 s5 hits - that's 0.83 wounds. She throws a nade that most likely does nothing, charges, looses 1 wound to overwatch and than proceeds to make 5+1(2ccs)+1(charge)-1(lash) attacks deals a bit lower than 3 wounds in cc, 1 of which gets saved with 5++, she recieves 2 s4 ap2 hits from this wounds that results in 0.44 wounds and than - as she's WS10, Lucius strikes 11 times resulting in 1.63 wounds which ends up at around the same mutual damage. They're 1-1 wound. Next turn Lelith finishes Lucius off but his armor is around 50/50 to kill her in return.
But if Lucius manages to throw a nade, he has a chance of finishing it before it even starts, though, if Lelith stacks furuius charge and manages to avoid shooting, she wins.
As for Ghazzy, he pretty much murderises her as he's t5 4 wounds, s10 and has a turn of 2++. Even a fully buffed Lelith with furious charge and rage charging a non - 2++ Ghaz manages around 3 wounds - he has 4. Than he strikes back and has a 70% chance of insta-killing her. Than he turns on 2++ and lelith has around 20% chance to finish him off before he gets another 70% to klaw her to death.
Did you factor in Lelith's 3++ she gets from being in a duel (4++ at all times normally), and the fact that she gains an attack for every point of WS she is higher than her opponent, meaning 8 attacks (9 on the charge) vs Lucius if she's warlord (bumps her up to WS10), -1 for the lash. Against Ghazzy that's 9 attacks.
She also re-rolls 1s both to hit and to wound, and counts-as AP2.
Might help her vs Lucius, but Ghazzy would likely still paste her.
You could argue that either the rules need to be updated to meet the fluff expectation for Lelith, or they're exactly as they were intended, but that's a different debate entirely.
Still, if we go by the rules she's good, but far from the best duelist...
Did you factor in Lelith's 3++ she gets from being in a duel (4++ at all times normally), and the fact that she gains an attack for every point of WS she is higher than her opponent, meaning 8 attacks (9 on the charge) vs Lucius if she's warlord (bumps her up to WS10), -1 for the lash. Against Ghazzy that's 9 attacks.
She also re-rolls 1s both to hit and to wound, and counts-as AP2.
Might help her vs Lucius, but Ghazzy would likely still paste her.
You could argue that either the rules need to be updated to meet the fluff expectation for Lelith, or they're exactly as they were intended, but that's a different debate entirely.
Still, if we go by the rules she's good, but far from the best duelist...
I counted her 3++ and that she re-rolls all to-hits and to-wounds and that she's ap2 ofc. And i forgot about extra attacks. That changes stuff. Ghaz still wins vs non-buffed Lelith but vs buffed Lilix he wins only if he charges or screams 2++ on her charge - note that he's almost as fast a charger on tabletop as Lelith as he can re-roll 1 dice for charge distance. And she'd better not hide for too long as he's got a bigshoota.
Lucius will gat splattered even vs non-buffed Lelix if he doesn't kill her with a krak grenade beforehand or if she'd be very unlucky.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, let me re-count Lelith vs Ghaz.
If Lelith charges w/o power from pain buffs, she pulls 2.5 wounds vs Ghaz w/o WAAAGH! - than there's a 70% chance that Ghaz splatters her with a klaw. But if he doesn't than there's a bit lower than 50% chance he'll fail ld and another 4/9 chance, so, around 22% that he'll get swept lol.
If buffed up Lelith charges Ghaz w/o WAAAGH! she will likely kill him before he strikes as she statistically deals a bit lower than 5 wounds. But if Ghaz manages to charge Lelith, it's back to ~2.3 wounds to Ghaz and now a 83% chance to insta-kill her.
If you take a random Captain with a 3++ shield and fist, that's gona look like:
Foregoing a krak grenade's 35% chance to insta-kill Lelith + around 6% on overwatch.
Unbuffed Lelith charges and deals 1.8 wounds, than there are 0.42 id wounds from a powerfist captain.
If a captain doesn't have a s6+ weapon, he's most likely dead.
Buffed up Lelith would deal 2.67 wounds to a random captain - than the same 0.42 in return if he's lucky enough to live.
Chapter master is a whole different story. Let's assume he won't be able to...orbitally bombard a dark eldar arena. Same stuff with grenades. Lelith will be in a lot more trouble than vs captain as Chapter master has +1 wounds and attacks, so that's way less chance to kill him before he strikes and 0.55 ID wounds.
We don't count bikes cause who would allow a marine to get a bike to an arena, right?
All in all, i'd say that Lelith has a 50/50 chance against a regular pf+shield captain if she gets 1-st turn. Cause the longer she runs around, the more chances to die from a krak grenade she has. yep, she gets buffed up with power from pain, but than it's only good vs characters without krak grenades or stuff like that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Let's take Abaddon just for fun.
Lelith can run around buffing up but she'd better not do it for too long as a combi-bolter deals around 0.32 wounds per shot minus stacking fnp. Anywayz, let's assume she's fully buffed up and charges Abaddon. She'd deal almost 3 wounds but than there are 0.97 wounds from a talon that's s8.
That's a pity that a regular space marine captain is able to go toe to toe with Lilith but she's naked after all. A naked captain or even Abaddon would be dead vs her. The fun thing is that naked Ghaz would have the exact same chance of killing Lelith as a megaarmored Ghaz with a power klaw if he manages to charge. Cybork body (6+ fnp) is built in and he has s5 base with furious charge, so will insta-kill Lelith with or without a klaw anywayz. But if he gets charged, he's screwed. Heck, a regular naked warboss would have chances vs Lelith if he pulls the charge off. She does deal 2.8 wounds but if he has cybork body, it's downgraded to 2.33 - which is allready a semi-decent chance to survive - and than there are 5 (6 if he still keeps his choppa and slugga) s6 attacks.
Did you factor in Lelith's 3++ she gets from being in a duel (4++ at all times normally), and the fact that she gains an attack for every point of WS she is higher than her opponent, meaning 8 attacks (9 on the charge) vs Lucius if she's warlord (bumps her up to WS10), -1 for the lash. Against Ghazzy that's 9 attacks.
She also re-rolls 1s both to hit and to wound, and counts-as AP2.
Might help her vs Lucius, but Ghazzy would likely still paste her.
You could argue that either the rules need to be updated to meet the fluff expectation for Lelith, or they're exactly as they were intended, but that's a different debate entirely.
Still, if we go by the rules she's good, but far from the best duelist...
Unless my Codex it's wrong or outdated i tought Lelith special rules are she Rerolls to hit and to wound on challenges , and Armour saves cannot be taken against wound s inflicted by her.
that +1 A thing it's only an Exarch Striking Scorpion rule as far i know.
So, all the calculations were wrong and a random captain with a fist or a butt naked warboss on the charge indeed trump her. That'd be a hilarious fight vs just a massive naked ork.
Either dark eldar are overrating her badly or she does use some magic coke.
So you're right. They changed 'A League Apart' to re-rolling all hits and wounds in a challenge.
God damnit I wish they would stop crapping all over Dark Eldar. Their dex wasn't even near the strongest last time and they got nerfs across the board.
Ah well :S
Hmmm, how's this for an interesting topic, that just so happens to benefit Lelith ...
Take two characters, strip them of all their wargear, give them each a knife and place them in an arena surrounding a null rod.
Ratius wrote: Corswain, Sigismund, Argel Tal in GV mode?
Who was the guy Talos used to square off against in the cage fights in the Soul Hunter series?
Xarl?
I thought he didn't like sparring with Xarl because he's devoted to Khorne? Or maybe that's just my gakky memory.
After reading through this thread I have some idea of the problems with it. Hence I'll make some rules for the fight. This is all lore based. Both combatants are armed with chosen wargear. No psykers or blanks allowed. No gods. No deamons. Only presently (40k) alive character. I'll divide this into factions.
Note: This list is not people who *would* win but rather the ones who standd a chance at wounding her. That's how OP she is in the fluff.
Reasoning: We know lelith has been around for thousands of years fighting nonstop. We know she beat the unnamed no.1 Space marine duelist. All names on this list must thus be superior to the best astartes in the galaxy at any given time. Currently I'd say the greatest astartes fighter is Dante, currently the oldest Space marine at 2000years. Those that surpass him are the ones with 10k+ years of war experience. So that shuts out anyone that wasn't around pre heresy.
Weapons: originally I went with "naked with a knife" approach but realised that only changed two things. Abaddon and the phoenix lords. Hence I changed the wargear to anything goes.
Chaos: Lucius, Kharn, Abaddon.
Lucius was the best duelist of his time. All three above has survived as leaders in the warp, most likely fighting deamons nonstop. They are litteraly unnatural in str, speed, skill and exp. I'd say Lucius has the best chance but Kharn probably has the individually highest kill-count in the universe.
Marines: none
No one without psychic powers. They'd have to surpass Dante to make this list.
Imperium as a whole: Custodes Captain
The only guy I can think of. We don't know how strong the Custodes are currently but we know they've been fighting deamons on terra for 10k+years. The Captain is confirmed to have duelled and beaten primarchs (if he's still alive). Probably the best fighter in the Imperium.
Eldar: Harlequin King, Solitaire, All of the phoenix lords.
All of theese have very difficult power levels to decide. Maugan Ra is said to have single handedly beaten a Tyranid hive fleet. Karandras is said to have duelled with Vect for 7days. What we do know is that they all have combat experience since before the fall of the Eldar and are probably the most skilled 1v1 fighters in the galaxy. Oh and the Solitaire should be able to match Leliths speed.
Dark Eldar: Vect
Not sure. Could he beat her through some sneaky means?
Necrons: none
Tyranids: none
Orks: Ghazkuul
Special case. He should have died several times by now and is probably the single toughest being in the galaxy. I'd say he's the weakest of the above mentioned though, but I suppose Gork (or possibly Mork) would give him an unforseen edge. Could he beat Dante 1v1? Probably. Could he beat Lelith? Possibly.
Nerak wrote: After reading through this thread I have some idea of the problems with it. Hence I'll make some rules for the fight. Both combatants are armed with chosen wargear. No psykers or blanks allowed. No gods. No deamons. Only presently (40k) alive character. I'll divide this into factions.
Note: This list is not people who *would* win but rather the ones who standd a chance at wounding her. That's how OP she is in the fluff.
Reasoning: We know lelith has been around for thousands of years fighting nonstop. We know she beat the unnamed no.1 Space marine duelist. All names on this list must thus be superior to the best astartes in the galaxy at any given time. Currently I'd say the greatest astartes fighter is Dante, currently the oldest Space marine at 2000years. Those that surpass him are the ones with 10k+ years of war experience. So that shuts out anyone that wasn't around pre heresy.
Weapons: originally I went with "naked with a knife" approach but realised that only changed two things. Abaddon and the phoenix lords. Hence I changed the wargear to anything goes.
Chaos: Lucius, Kharn, Abaddon.
Lucius was the best duelist of his time. All three above has survived as leaders in the warp, most likely fighting deamons nonstop. They are litteraly unnatural in str, speed, skill and exp. I'd say Lucius has the best chance but Kharn probably has the individually highest kill-count in the universe.
Marines: none
No one without psychic powers.
Imperium as a whole: Custodes Captain
The only guy I can think of. We don't know how strong the Custodes are currently but we know they've been fighting deamons on terra for 10k+years. The Captain is confirmed to have duelled and beaten primarchs (if he's still alive). Probably the best fighter in the Imperium.
Eldar: Harlequin King, Solitaire, All of the phoenix lords.
All of theese have very difficult power levels to decide. Maugan Ra is said to have single handedly beaten a Tyranid hive fleet. Karandras is said to have duelled with Vect for 7days. What we do know is that they all have combat experience since before the fall of the Eldar and are probably the most skilled 1v1 fighters in the galaxy. Oh and the Solitaire should be able to match Leliths speed.
Dark Eldar: Vect
Not sure. Could he beat her through some sneaky means?
Necrons: none
Tyranids: none
Orks: Ghazkuul
Special case. He should have died several times by now and is probably the single toughest being in the galaxy. I'd say he's the weakest of the above mentioned though, but I suppose Gork (or possibly Mork) would give him an unforseen edge. Could he beat Dante 1v1? Probably. Could he beat Lelith? Possibly.
Now that's how you do fluff comparisons
I'd say Vect would probably not be on the list. His thing is political machinations rather than raw combat skill (although he'd have to at least have some to claw his way to the top).
I'd also say that Maugan Ra might not be on the list either (and I'm saying that as a massive fan of Maugan Ra). His thing's more crafting esoteric WMDs rather than CC skill, and there's no mention of him beating the hive fleet through CC prowess. Seems more believable to me that he did it through weight of fire (some old pre-Fall defence grid perhaps?).
I would add Drahzar though, provided he's actually Arhra.
I'd say Vect would probably not be on the list. His thing is political machinations rather than raw combat skill (although he'd have to at least have some to claw his way to the top).
I'd also say that Maugan Ra might not be on the list either (and I'm saying that as a massive fan of Maugan Ra). His thing's more crafting esoteric WMDs rather than CC skill, and there's no mention of him beating the hive fleet through CC prowess. Seems more believable to me that he did it through weight of fire (some old pre-Fall defence grid perhaps?).
I would add Drahzar though, provided he's actually Arhra.
Thanks man.
I made quite the mistake, somehow I'd come to think that Vect was Arhra. Which is possible but Drahzar is the far more likely candidate. I've decided to keep Maugan Ra, just for the experience factor and because we don't really know what the phoenix lords are cappable off, though I agree that with all the non close combat specialist ones Lelith would probably win. Updated the list after your input:
Chaos: Lucius, Kharn, Abaddon.
Marines: none
Imperium as a whole: Custodes Captain
Eldar: Harlequin King, Solitaire, all of the phoenix lords.
Dark Eldar: Drahzar
Necrons: none
Tyranids: none
Tau: none
Orks: Ghazkuul
For reasoning, restrictions and wargear check the original post.
Well, checking the crunch, an Overlord with a Warscythe, Res Orb, and Phase Shifter will take...
How many attacks base is she? 4? +4 for WS 9 vs. WS 5? So 8 (I'm assuming neither got the charge off) hitting on 3s, for 16/3 hits, wounding on 6s, for 16/18 (8/9) wounds, with a 4+ Invuln (4/9 wounds) and a 5+ Reanimate (8/27 wounds) she'll take slightly over 3 turns to do a wound to him.
Meanwhile, he's got 3 attacks, hitting on 4s (3/2) wounding on 2s (15/12) with a 3+ Invuln (15/36, or 5/12) so he'll take slightly under 3 turns to do a wound to her.
And insta-gibs her.
How many points is Lelith? Because a 130 point Overlord crumps her good.
I'll nominate Vargard Obyron for the Necrons. After she's done her initiative he should still be standing and with his 9 to 10 atks with a warscyth he ought to finish her.
Crunch-wise, Aun'shi sitting in Patient Blade mode and firing off 6+ FNP every turn might be able to do it.
Spoiler:
Flicking through the Dark Eldar 7th edition book, they got rid of her rule which gave her extra attacks for having a higher WS? That sucks. Oh but she gets +1 WS from her warlord trait, bringing her up to WS10
So Lelith strikes first, 5 attacks which hit on 3s (with re-rolls, this is obviously a challenge) giving 4.44 hits, then wound on 4s (again, with rerolls) giving 3.33 wounds. Aun'shi has a 4++ re-rollable, resulting in 0.833 unsaved wounds and after the 6+++ FNP we're left with 0.69 wounds.
Aun'shi responds, 4 attacks hitting on 4s so 2 hits, 2 hits wounding on 2s so 1.66 wounds, then a 3++ leaving 0.55 unsaved wounds.
So Lelith will win thanks to her higher Initiative but it's pretty close otherwise. Not bad for an old blue man in a loin cloth, go Aun'shi!
If it was old 4th Ed Aun'shi though... He was such a fun character to troll people with by getting him into combat with CC characters and then sacrificing his attacks to reduce them to a single attack
JNAProductions wrote: Well, checking the crunch, an Overlord with a Warscythe, Res Orb, and Phase Shifter will take...
How many attacks base is she? 4? +4 for WS 9 vs. WS 5? So 8 (I'm assuming neither got the charge off) hitting on 3s, for 16/3 hits, wounding on 6s, for 16/18 (8/9) wounds, with a 4+ Invuln (4/9 wounds) and a 5+ Reanimate (8/27 wounds) she'll take slightly over 3 turns to do a wound to him.
Meanwhile, he's got 3 attacks, hitting on 4s (3/2) wounding on 2s (15/12) with a 3+ Invuln (15/36, or 5/12) so he'll take slightly under 3 turns to do a wound to her.
And insta-gibs her.
How many points is Lelith? Because a 130 point Overlord crumps her good.
yes she has terrible rules. Like most DE, the rules are not anywhere near the fluff.
I made quite the mistake, somehow I'd come to think that Vect was Arhra. Which is possible but Drahzar is the far more likely candidate. I've decided to keep Maugan Ra, just for the experience factor and because we don't really know what the phoenix lords are cappable off, though I agree that with all the non close combat specialist ones Lelith would probably win. Updated the list after your input:
Chaos: Lucius, Kharn, Abaddon.
Marines: none
Imperium as a whole: Custodes Captain
Eldar: Harlequin King, Solitaire, all of the phoenix lords.
Dark Eldar: Drahzar
Necrons: none
Tyranids: none
Tau: none
Orks: Ghazkuul
For reasoning, restrictions and wargear check the original post.
EDIT: I forgot the Tau
Ah that makes sense I had noticed you'd neglected the Tau, but I thought that that was on purpose
So we've got the case that Lelith in the fluff if pretty damn strong, but in the crunch can be beaten by quite a lot of things...
If we're going by the fluff, I don't think Cypher could take her either. He hasn't got the experience (given that the Cypher of 40k being around since the Heresy, he was flung out through time and space).
She's super fast and skilled, but I think the problem for her would ultimately be staying power. Greater Daemons, Avatars, Daemon Princes and other hero models (Phoenix Lords, Chapter Masters) can take some wounds and keep going. Whereas if those heavy hitters land a single blow, she's in trouble.
Insectum7 wrote: She's super fast and skilled, but I think the problem for her would ultimately be staying power. Greater Daemons, Avatars, Daemon Princes and other hero models (Phoenix Lords, Chapter Masters) can take some wounds and keep going. Whereas if those heavy hitters land a single blow, she's in trouble.
On the other hand, it could be like Bronn vs Ser Vardis or Oberyn vs The Mountain (but without the final mistake)
Nerak wrote: Karandras is said to have duelled with Vect for 7days.
Think you mean Ahra, here.
A duel involving Vect would last about as long as it would take for him to activate his pre-prepared scheme to blow up both the enemy and the several hundred kilometres surrounding the enemy with the biggest implement of death he can find.
Insectum7 wrote: She's super fast and skilled, but I think the problem for her would ultimately be staying power. Greater Daemons, Avatars, Daemon Princes and other hero models (Phoenix Lords, Chapter Masters) can take some wounds and keep going. Whereas if those heavy hitters land a single blow, she's in trouble.
We'll Yeah, she's a glass cannon, like all DE. If they don't win fast they get stomped
Nerak wrote: Karandras is said to have duelled with Vect for 7days.
Think you mean Ahra, here.
A duel involving Vect would last about as long as it would take for him to activate his pre-prepared scheme to blow up both the enemy and the several hundred kilometres surrounding the enemy with the biggest implement of death he can find.
*Ahra, mb.
Seems it was 17days, not 7.
There's some weird stuff here, concerning this duel. I've decided to start a new thread about it. Though my phone's been messy so it'll have to wait just a little.
EDIT: edited this to Ahra from Drahzar for clarity
Nerak wrote: Karandras is said to have duelled with Vect for 7days.
Think you mean Ahra, here.
A duel involving Vect would last about as long as it would take for him to activate his pre-prepared scheme to blow up both the enemy and the several hundred kilometres surrounding the enemy with the biggest implement of death he can find.
*Drahzar, mb.
Seems it was 17days, not 7.
There's some weird stuff here, concerning this duel. I've decided to start a new thread about it.
That's also assuming the Myths about Drazhar are true and he is in fact Ahra, something that haven't been fully explained yet in the codex besides ingame rumors (as far we know it can be Drastanta the Phoenix Lord of shinning spears trying to attone itself somehow)
Yeah.... I'm starting to think Drahzar is in fact not Ahra and furthermore that someone screwed up the date here.
Apparently the duel was the last time anyone saw Ahra. However it's set in 928.M41.
The story in 3ed was just that Karandras and Arha dueled for 17days and then Arha was never heard from or seen again.
The weird thing is Ahra dissapeared BEFORE the first Incubi shrine was formed in commoragath. Also Karandras changed the striking scorpion shrine before he taught it to the craftworlds. Karandras did not actually become the phoenix lord untill after this duel.
So if Drahzar is Ahra and the original incubi either he revealed his true self for this duel, Karandras became a phoenix lord some 70years ago or someone really messed up the date.
EDIT: ment to start a new thread about this but I can't on my phone for some reason. Bug?
Insectum7 wrote: She's super fast and skilled, but I think the problem for her would ultimately be staying power. Greater Daemons, Avatars, Daemon Princes and other hero models (Phoenix Lords, Chapter Masters) can take some wounds and keep going. Whereas if those heavy hitters land a single blow, she's in trouble.
We'll Yeah, she's a glass cannon, like all DE. If they don't win fast they get stomped
In the fluff she is the opposite. She just dances around never getting hit.
Insectum7 wrote: She's super fast and skilled, but I think the problem for her would ultimately be staying power. Greater Daemons, Avatars, Daemon Princes and other hero models (Phoenix Lords, Chapter Masters) can take some wounds and keep going. Whereas if those heavy hitters land a single blow, she's in trouble.
On the other hand, it could be like Bronn vs Ser Vardis or Oberyn vs The Mountain (but without the final mistake)
I had to look that reference up .
Yeah, it could obviously go either way. If she can manage to not be hit, great. But unlike The Mountain, so many other characters have both hard hitting CC weapons AND guns.
Nerak wrote: Yeah.... I'm starting to think Drahzar is in fact not Ahra and furthermore that someone screwed up the date here.
Apparently the duel was the last time anyone saw Ahra. However it's set in 928.M41.
The story in 3ed was just that Karandras and Arha dueled for 17days and then Arha was never heard from or seen again.
The weird thing is Ahra dissapeared BEFORE the first Incubi shrine was formed in commoragath. Also Karandras changed the striking scorpion shrine before he taught it to the craftworlds. Karandras did not actually become the phoenix lord untill after this duel.
So if Drahzar is Ahra and the original incubi either he revealed his true self for this duel, Karandras became a phoenix lord some 70years ago or someone really messed up the date.
EDIT: ment to start a new thread about this but I can't on my phone for some reason. Bug?
JNAProductions wrote: So, since all Primarchs have IWND, Lelith needs to do over 1/3rd a wound per turn, or she can never, ever kill a Primarch.
She won't be able to wound t7 anywayz - unless she gets furious charge. But than, she has no Hit and Run. Technically, she has a chance of killing a primarch but it's close to a chance he's gona get hit with a meteor on that very arena and die anywayz
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, if we allow all the shooty weapons, than any tau commander with seeker missiles will probably evaporate her.
I suggest to get rid of non-melee weapons cause otherwise she has a chance of dying from a conscript with a frag grenade, cause no matter how awesome you are, you can't dodge frag.
Huh. Okay, so at S3 and T7, Primarchs can't even be scratched by Lelith.
Most Primarchs are T6. Only the toughest are T7 so far (Vulkan, Ferrus, and Mortarion, if memory serves). Given Magnus' stature, he might end up with T7 as well (He does as a Daemon Prince, given that recently-released stat line), but we don't have 30k rules for him yet.
I had no idea Lilith was so overwanked. But this whole thing does remind me of the (very) old original Aliens tabletop game as a solution. In it the marines have come up with a less than ideal strategy for when xenomorphs are swarming them- they drop frag grenades at their own feet. They know full well that their armour will protect them from the worst of it (though it's hardly safe) but the xenomorphs have zero protection. It's a gamble to be sure, but one that is worth taking when the enemy is so much faster than you.
Lilith has no armour to speak of. For most people such a tactic would probably be your best bet against her. She may be fast but she's not dodging shrapnel at melee range fast. Sure, you might kill/maim yourself but if the alternative is fighting her in hand to hand you may well have better odds with the grenade- especially if you're armoured like a marine.
Kojiro wrote: I had no idea Lilith was so overwanked. But this whole thing does remind me of the (very) old original Aliens tabletop game as a solution. In it the marines have come up with a less than ideal strategy for when xenomorphs are swarming them- they drop frag grenades at their own feet. They know full well that their armour will protect them from the worst of it (though it's hardly safe) but the xenomorphs have zero protection. It's a gamble to be sure, but one that is worth taking when the enemy is so much faster than you.
Lilith has no armour to speak of. For most people such a tactic would probably be your best bet against her. She may be fast but she's not dodging shrapnel at melee range fast. Sure, you might kill/maim yourself but if the alternative is fighting her in hand to hand you may well have better odds with the grenade- especially if you're armoured like a marine.
But she may be fast and keen enough to notice you dropping your grenade and then backing up until the explosion is over.
Bobthehero wrote: Unless you ''cook'' the grenade and then it explodes before it reaches the ground.
But then what's to stop her noticing that you are doing so and back up or do something to otherwise shield herself (like putting you between her and the grenade or doing something to make it cook off in your hand)?
Well you're not going to stand there and wait to be cut down, and really after you remove the pin you can that with a single hand, so you have one hand free to defend yourself, and nothing forces you to drop the frag as soon as she gets there, either, you can keep it in your hand for a while and drop it at the worst moment for her.
Clever bit of thinking on the part of the writers though I do like that
I used it as a defense in Aliens Vs Predator for why I'd detonate grenades at my feet when the alien player got close (I was terrible back then and couldn't hit it). As far as I was concerned it was a canon marine tactic, therefore not cheese!
That said, I'm actually rather surprised marines don't have frag devices specifically for combating fast, horde like enemies. Strap them to the front of each pauldron or even the front of the shin and you'd have a fair advantage against half a dozen hormugaunts/stealers. Hell, a marine might even have fast enough reflexes to trigger such things in response to an incoming RPG type attack.
Against an opponent as supposedly fast as she is it's probably the only chance you'd have. Just hope the frag does more damage to her than you and if it kills you, well it's probably less painful than what she'd do anyway.
But then what's to stop her noticing that you are doing so and back up or do something to otherwise shield herself (like putting you between her and the grenade or doing something to make it cook off in your hand)?
Depends on the size of the grenade I suppose. Some lore has frags being coin sized and a marine can hold (and hurl) and handful at a time. I imagine a marine might well trigger them and throw a punch, only to open his hand as it whizzed past her head. Of course that would rely on knowing you need to use such a tactic, something lacking in a 1v1 usually.
In all probability though, anyone entering the battlefields of the 41s millennium unarmoured is going to cop a piece of shrapnel or stray shot sooner or later. As they say in Fight Club “On a long enough time line, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.”
Just hold a grenade so that Lilith can see it. She won't come at you cause than you'd detonate it and she'd be hurt. So, Lilith looks at you holding a grenade. You look at Lilith looking at you holding a grenade. Can have a nice chat in the meanwhile. Just don't forget the nade. She can be a real bitch if you do forget.
If we're (dangerously) going down a common sense route with this duel, I'd think while you were sitting there having your nice chat she'd just throw one of her knives at you.
However, if we are looking at common sense then any bloke with a sawnoff and some buckshot would mince her...
Kojiro wrote: I had no idea Lilith was so overwanked.
But she may be fast and keen enough to notice you dropping your grenade and then backing up until the explosion is over.
The irony!
Ahriman with his psychic shenanigans could probably take her out easily. Or some idiot recruit armed with an explosive weapon if he gets lucky. Lelith isn't a demigod of war. She is just a really talented gladiator who relies on speed and not much else to defeat her opponents.
Kojiro wrote: I had no idea Lilith was so overwanked. But this whole thing does remind me of the (very) old original Aliens tabletop game as a solution. In it the marines have come up with a less than ideal strategy for when xenomorphs are swarming them- they drop frag grenades at their own feet. They know full well that their armour will protect them from the worst of it (though it's hardly safe) but the xenomorphs have zero protection. It's a gamble to be sure, but one that is worth taking when the enemy is so much faster than you.
Lilith has no armour to speak of. For most people such a tactic would probably be your best bet against her. She may be fast but she's not dodging shrapnel at melee range fast. Sure, you might kill/maim yourself but if the alternative is fighting her in hand to hand you may well have better odds with the grenade- especially if you're armoured like a marine.
Overwanked is a super understatement based off some of the posts in this thread.
Kojiro wrote: I had no idea Lilith was so overwanked. But this whole thing does remind me of the (very) old original Aliens tabletop game as a solution. In it the marines have come up with a less than ideal strategy for when xenomorphs are swarming them- they drop frag grenades at their own feet. They know full well that their armour will protect them from the worst of it (though it's hardly safe) but the xenomorphs have zero protection. It's a gamble to be sure, but one that is worth taking when the enemy is so much faster than you.
Lilith has no armour to speak of. For most people such a tactic would probably be your best bet against her. She may be fast but she's not dodging shrapnel at melee range fast. Sure, you might kill/maim yourself but if the alternative is fighting her in hand to hand you may well have better odds with the grenade- especially if you're armoured like a marine.
Overwanked is a super understatement based off some of the posts in this thread.
Yeah. God forbid a non-Imperium faction has a character that is actually good at something!
As for trying a grenade, you'd be dead before you'd have the pin out. Lilith survived tens of thousands of years fighting and killing the galaxy's most dangerous combatants without ever getting wounded. She is not going to be taken out by something as simple as a grenade. Apart from the likes of Drazhar, Phoenix Lords, Primarchs and Greater Daemons, there is very little in 40k fluff that would have a chance of beating her.
Overwanked is a super understatement based off some of the posts in this thread.
Yeah. God forbid a non-Imperium faction has a character that is actually good at something!
As for trying a grenade, you'd be dead before you'd have the pin out. Lilith survived tens of thousands of years fighting and killing the galaxy's most dangerous combatants without ever getting wounded. She is not going to be taken out by something as simple as a grenade. Apart from the likes of Drazhar, Phoenix Lords, Primarchs and Greater Daemons, there is very little in 40k fluff that would have a chance of beating her.
Preach at least she's not holding a Necron Pylon over her head and shooting people with it
However, for your average Guardsman, stuffing a 'nade up your T-Shirt and hoping she doesn't notice until it's too late is probably one of the more likely tactics to be successful
nareik wrote: She sees that grenade she snatches it off of you, puts it in your mouth and back flips away as it explodes your head.
The crowd roar with laughter as you are the nth arena rat to attempt such an obvious ploy!
Grenades are not working this way. You can't "snatch" it back.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ynneadwraith wrote: If we're (dangerously) going down a common sense route with this duel, I'd think while you were sitting there having your nice chat she'd just throw one of her knives at you.
However, if we are looking at common sense then any bloke with a sawnoff and some buckshot would mince her...
Knives are not bullets, you can't throw them too effectively at long range. Besides, she won't be able to throw it fast enough cause her knives are massive and impractical. If you're even close to i3 you'd have decent chances of avoiding them.
nareik wrote: She sees that grenade she snatches it off of you, puts it in your mouth and back flips away as it explodes your head.
The crowd roar with laughter as you are the nth arena rat to attempt such an obvious ploy!
Grenades are not working this way. You can't "snatch" it back.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ynneadwraith wrote: If we're (dangerously) going down a common sense route with this duel, I'd think while you were sitting there having your nice chat she'd just throw one of her knives at you.
However, if we are looking at common sense then any bloke with a sawnoff and some buckshot would mince her...
Knives are not bullets, you can't throw them too effectively at long range. Besides, she won't be able to throw it fast enough cause her knives are massive and impractical. If you're even close to i3 you'd have decent chances of avoiding them.
I think you are letting realism get in the way of 40k's Hollywood physics .
Kojiro wrote: I had no idea Lilith was so overwanked. But this whole thing does remind me of the (very) old original Aliens tabletop game as a solution. In it the marines have come up with a less than ideal strategy for when xenomorphs are swarming them- they drop frag grenades at their own feet. They know full well that their armour will protect them from the worst of it (though it's hardly safe) but the xenomorphs have zero protection. It's a gamble to be sure, but one that is worth taking when the enemy is so much faster than you.
Lilith has no armour to speak of. For most people such a tactic would probably be your best bet against her. She may be fast but she's not dodging shrapnel at melee range fast. Sure, you might kill/maim yourself but if the alternative is fighting her in hand to hand you may well have better odds with the grenade- especially if you're armoured like a marine.
Overwanked is a super understatement based off some of the posts in this thread.
Yeah. God forbid a non-Imperium faction has a character that is actually good at something!
As for trying a grenade, you'd be dead before you'd have the pin out. Lilith survived tens of thousands of years fighting and killing the galaxy's most dangerous combatants without ever getting wounded. She is not going to be taken out by something as simple as a grenade. Apart from the likes of Drazhar, Phoenix Lords, Primarchs and Greater Daemons, there is very little in 40k fluff that would have a chance of beating her.
Ah yeah and that's why she's always been stellar on the tabletop too.
Nah don't use that argument. Everyone loves characters like Fabius and Farsight and Trazyn and Maugan, but NONE of that is on the level I've seen demonstrated in this thread.
I think this thread isn't going anywhere because of the nature of 40k fluff, and because you can always point out a 'Nuh-uh!' answer to any plausible idea. Primarchs are *Impossibly* strong. Ahriman is *Unbeatably* good at Psychic Powers. Lilith is *Unhittably* fast. If you go by any given character's fluff, that character is always going to win.
Logically speaking, any attack which can't be dodged (The above-mentioned Grenade, any other kind of explosive, mental attacks,) should kill her pretty easily. Of course, logically, nobody should be able to survive 10,000 years of dueling. (Or 10,000 years of anything, for that matter.)
Yeah agreed. TBH, I think from a fluff perspective Nerak has it down as methodically as possible.
From a crunch perspective (which is my preference) koooaei has it down as methodically as possible.
Anything other than that is more conjecture than evidence-based (as evidence-based as you can get when you're debating a fictional character in a fictional universe of course...).
Ah yeah and that's why she's always been stellar on the tabletop too.
Nah don't use that argument. Everyone loves characters like Fabius and Farsight and Trazyn and Maugan, but NONE of that is on the level I've seen demonstrated in this thread.
The thing about Lelith, is that she has the thing that she is good at and that's it. She is an amazing fighter and that's it, that's her job and she does it well.
A lot of other characters, on the other hand, have to be amazing at loads of things. Space Marines are often super strong AND tactical geniuses AND are super tough AND ultra psykers AND etc.
I find a character who is the best at what she does because that is all that she does more believable than characters who are the best at whatever they need to be the best at in order to advance a badly thought out plot.
Given time and free reign to plan it himself Lukas Strifeson could pull it off.
I'm not saying it would be a fair fight by any stretch of the imagination but Lukas would challenge and duel her and she would die.
Ah yeah and that's why she's always been stellar on the tabletop too.
Nah don't use that argument. Everyone loves characters like Fabius and Farsight and Trazyn and Maugan, but NONE of that is on the level I've seen demonstrated in this thread.
The thing about Lelith, is that she has the thing that she is good at and that's it. She is an amazing fighter and that's it, that's her job and she does it well.
A lot of other characters, on the other hand, have to be amazing at loads of things. Space Marines are often super strong AND tactical geniuses AND are super tough AND ultra psykers AND etc.
I find a character who is the best at what she does because that is all that she does more believable than characters who are the best at whatever they need to be the best at in order to advance a badly thought out plot.
Nobody cares if you like her more because you think she's more believable. That's not part of the discussion.
Nobody cares if you like her more because you think she's more believable. That's not part of the discussion.
Tad on the aggressive side...
It is part of the discussion depending on what the discussion actually is. A fair few people have tried to inject a little realism into the discussion, in which case Lelith believing she's more believable is certainly pertinent. It's opinion, but still relevant to the conversation.
Ynneadwraith wrote: That's because none of those characters are billed as being millennia-old pitfighters
Being a duelist is sort of her thing.
In her (our) defence slightly, name another character that has survived since before the Horus Heresy, fighting every day, and only been wounded once.
I suppose you could say 'name another character who's picked up a pylon and used it to shoot Necrons', but still. It's impressive
Look, Dark Eldar don't have much these days (not even a competitive codex!). Let us have this
That's because all she does is duel in a controlled environment. Like someone else previously stated, war and the arena are two different things. The reason why "someone else hasn't been wounded in a millenia" is because they're fighting real battles on a real battlefield where unexpected things happen. To my knowledge there's not a single other character in fluff that just derps around in arenas all day. If all constantine valdor did was sit around in a fightclub for a couple centuries he'd probably be unscathed too.
As far as characters that would kill her go, any primarch or psychically gifted individual. No, she's not gonna "cut you a million times till you die", Angron got stepped on by a Titan and buried under a mountain and just walked it off. Not to mention marine physiology is ideally suited for "small cuts", what with auto clotting blood and near limitless stamina. To kill a primarch you need one hammerblow, not a bunch of tiny ones.
Pyskers would use precognition which completely strips lelith of her one and only advantage, her speed/reflexes. Doesn't matter how fast you are if I can predict your every move. That, or just crush her with telekinesis.
Yeah and that one marine she killed fought without his armor so... yeah she kind of fought a handicapped opponent. That and it wasn't stated he was the "best swordsman" of the marines. He was a champion but never such a statement was made.
That's because all she does is duel in a controlled environment. Like someone else previously stated, war and the arena are two different things. The reason why "someone else hasn't been wounded in a millenia" is because they're fighting real battles on a real battlefield where unexpected things happen. To my knowledge there's not a single other character in fluff that just derps around in arenas all day. If all constantine valdor did was sit around in a fightclub for a couple centuries he'd probably be unscathed too.
Probably true, except the fact that the question is about a 1-on-1 duel which is exactly what Lelith has been doing for 10k years.
"If all constantine valdor did was sit around in the mother of all fightclubs". Fixed that
As far as characters that would kill her go, any primarch or psychically gifted individual. No, she's not gonna "cut you a million times till you die", Angron got stepped on by a Titan and buried under a mountain and just walked it off. Not to mention marine physiology is ideally suited for "small cuts", what with auto clotting blood and near limitless stamina. To kill a primarch you need one hammerblow, not a bunch of tiny ones.
Pyskers would use precognition which completely strips lelith of her one and only advantage, her speed/reflexes. Doesn't matter how fast you are if I can predict your every move. That, or just crush her with telekinesis.
Agreed. We've established that she'd probably get rofl-stomped by Primarchs and most powerful psykers. 100%
Saying that, I don't see precognition as a hard counter. You can see something coming, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can stop it happening. If that's the case, I could make the argument that Eldrad Ulthran is the greatest duelist in the universe because he's the greatest seer there has ever been and he'd predict all their moves. As a self-confessed eldar fan I'd love that, but it probably doesn't work like that
Psychic doombolts would probably mince her though. I'd doubt they'd allow psychic powers flying around the arena in Commorragh given how risky it would be, so she probably doesn't face them that often. No real defence against them. Especially the ones that can't be dodged (you can side-step a bolt of energy, can't side-step someone looking at you and melting your brain with their mind).
I'd also agree that marine physiology would make it difficult to kill them, but she's done it before in the fluff (to a great marine duelist) so it's definitely possible.
Edit: it's just struck me that I might have misread your 'war vs arena' argument. It's more that it's not an apples-to-apples comparison of characters, and you're right.
Lord Kragan wrote: Yeah and that one marine she killed fought without his armor so... yeah she kind of fought a handicapped opponent. That and it wasn't stated he was the "best swordsman" of the marines. He was a champion but never such a statement was made.
Interesting. Do you have the quote? Could probably change things somewhat.
That's because all she does is duel in a controlled environment. Like someone else previously stated, war and the arena are two different things. The reason why "someone else hasn't been wounded in a millenia" is because they're fighting real battles on a real battlefield where unexpected things happen. To my knowledge there's not a single other character in fluff that just derps around in arenas all day. If all constantine valdor did was sit around in a fightclub for a couple centuries he'd probably be unscathed too.
Probably true, except the fact that the question is about a 1-on-1 duel which is exactly what Lelith has been doing for 10k years.
"If all constantine valdor did was sit around in the mother of all fightclubs". Fixed that
As far as characters that would kill her go, any primarch or psychically gifted individual. No, she's not gonna "cut you a million times till you die", Angron got stepped on by a Titan and buried under a mountain and just walked it off. Not to mention marine physiology is ideally suited for "small cuts", what with auto clotting blood and near limitless stamina. To kill a primarch you need one hammerblow, not a bunch of tiny ones.
Pyskers would use precognition which completely strips lelith of her one and only advantage, her speed/reflexes. Doesn't matter how fast you are if I can predict your every move. That, or just crush her with telekinesis.
Agreed. We've established that she'd probably get rofl-stomped by Primarchs and most powerful psykers. 100%
Saying that, I don't see precognition as a hard counter. You can see something coming, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can stop it happening. If that's the case, I could make the argument that Eldrad Ulthran is the greatest duelist in the universe because he's the greatest seer there has ever been and he'd predict all their moves. As a self-confessed eldar fan I'd love that, but it probably doesn't work like that
Psychic doombolts would probably mince her though. I'd doubt they'd allow psychic powers flying around the arena in Commorragh given how risky it would be, so she probably doesn't face them that often. No real defence against them. Especially the ones that can't be dodged (you can side-step a bolt of energy, can't side-step someone looking at you and melting your brain with their mind).
I'd also agree that marine physiology would make it difficult to kill them, but she's done it before in the fluff (to a great marine duelist) so it's definitely possible.
Yes, a great marine duelist. Primarchs are orders of magnitude more powerful than even a marine chapter master, and far more well engineered. There's a reason why the Emperor opted to mass produce marines and not primarchs; he couldn't. Every primarch represented a unique and irrecoverable investment. You don't hear about stock standard power armor dudes taking on entire armies at the eternity gate, beating down the favored bloodthirster of khorne or killing the emperor himself.
Actually, a more interesting question would be "what can kill a Primarch (barring actual gods) in a one on one duel?". I know there are a few swordsmen in 30k (sigismund, sevator) that came close in sparring matches but I seriously question who could best and kill a primarch in full "combat mode". Especially someone like Magnus or Ascendant Lorgar with all their magic BS.
Yes, a great marine duelist. Primarchs are orders of magnitude more powerful than even a marine chapter master, and far more well engineered. There's a reason why the Emperor opted to mass produce marines and not primarchs; he couldn't. Every primarch represented a unique and irrecoverable investment. You don't hear about stock standard power armor dudes taking on entire armies at the eternity gate, beating down the favored bloodthirster of khorne or killing the emperor himself.
Actually, a more interesting question would be "what can kill a Primarch (barring actual gods) in a one on one duel?". I know there are a few swordsmen in 30k (sigismund, sevator) that came close in sparring matches but I seriously question who could best and kill a primarch in full "combat mode". Especially someone like Magnus or Ascendant Lorgar with all their magic BS.
Agreed. We've established that she'd probably get rofl-stomped by Primarchs and most powerful psykers. 100%.
Yeah, primarchs are a no-go.
Beyond the emperor himself, maybe one of the Beast guys, and any more favoured children of the gods like that primordial Bloodthirster dude (forget his name) it's probably a lot safer to call down an orbital strike and wipe the continent.
Do necrons have that lightning thing still?Pretty sure she'd lose if hitting her opponent meant she gets fried. Heck I wonder if she could do much vs Obyron, that guy was getting cut up by one of the Khans but he just kept repairing for hours. Pretty sure Lilith would be fighting up hill against that nonsense with the way she fights.
Is Old One Eye still about? What's his regeneration like?
I suspect "unknown" the best astartes duelist might have A) been talking about loyalists. B) might not take into account things like the Grey Knights who are suppose to be a secret and other exceptional scenarios like that. I think Crow has the skill in duelist stance it's just a shame he is fighting his own weapon at the same time. Because of that I'd give that one to Lill heck she may even come out of it stronger depending on how the sword works. EDIT: apparently the duel with the marine champion may not even be so straight forward.
I'd say it would be a draw against Lukas the Trickster .
The assassins have a similar invulnerable save credited to dodging so I'd say they are almost as fast, at least enough that she couldn't count on speed alone. Less skilled but physically stronger. Combine this with the etherium-soulless one two combo I'd back the Culexus just because they are similar on a physical level but she would struggle to actually target it.
If a Wolf lord is wearing the exothermic armor of Russ her speed is potentially negated.
Just cutting a plague marine seems kind of dangerous, who knows what gasses those guys might have in them.
Orikan seems like he could do it but not in a fair fight. Combining his time travel bull crap with his staff that hits+ before he swings it, even if she beat him I'd hazard he has some trick to go back and just do over until "the stars are right".
Any one with any sort of "aura" type defense or reactive defense seems like a bit of a hurdle for her. Pretty sure anyone that can fly and has a gun has a distinct advantage. Quoting her arena history is kind of sketchy at best, for example I've done boxing and in a boxing ring I was matched against opponents in the name of competition. I doubt they'd put Lilith in the ring with someone she couldn't possibly beat despite the fact there is probably foes out there that fit that description.
These are just a few I think could do it not necessarily because they are as fast or strong but because they have some way to offset her speed or skill.
Actually, a more interesting question would be "what can kill a Primarch (barring actual gods) in a one on one duel?". I know there are a few swordsmen in 30k (sigismund, sevator) that came close in sparring matches but I seriously question who could best and kill a primarch in full "combat mode". Especially someone like Magnus or Ascendant Lorgar with all their magic BS.
A quite pissed Wraithlord slaugthered all of Fullgrim personal guard and almost killed him (The demonic sword he had saved Fullgrim from a sure death) so Lore wise, even Primarchs can be quite weak against the right plot armour.
To OP: a Dominatrix. The Tyranid one. Also, Sly Marbo.
ted234521 wrote: Actually, a more interesting question would be "what can kill a Primarch (barring actual gods) in a one on one duel?". I know there are a few swordsmen in 30k (sigismund, sevator) that came close in sparring matches but I seriously question who could best and kill a primarch in full "combat mode". Especially someone like Magnus or Ascendant Lorgar with all their magic BS.
Actually, a more interesting question would be "what can kill a Primarch (barring actual gods) in a one on one duel?". I know there are a few swordsmen in 30k (sigismund, sevator) that came close in sparring matches but I seriously question who could best and kill a primarch in full "combat mode". Especially someone like Magnus or Ascendant Lorgar with all their magic BS.
A quite pissed Wraithlord slaugthered all of Fullgrim personal guard and almost killed him (The demonic sword he had saved Fullgrim from a sure death) so Lore wise, even Primarchs can be quite weak against the right plot armour.
Yea, when stuff like that occurs I use the rational that special character marines are so much better than basic marines, so the [thing] who did [ridiculous feat #11234] was the top tier special character version of [thing].
Nebulas1 wrote: Pretty sure anyone that can fly and has a gun has a distinct advantage. Quoting her arena history is kind of sketchy at best, for example I've done boxing and in a boxing ring I was matched against opponents in the name of competition. I doubt they'd put Lilith in the ring with someone she couldn't possibly beat despite the fact there is probably foes out there that fit that description.
That's the thing - she fights arena battles that are supposed to give the Dork Eldar their jollies from bloodshed and pain. Arena battles where opponents are totally chanceless probably wouldn't be very exciting, but passing out guns or grenades to just anyone won't do. Who's to say a combatant wouldn't decide to go apeshit on the audience instead of Lelith? So IMO the question of real war vs arena doesn't normally even come up because she only fights in the arena. Gladiatorial fights are supposed to be even in some way (unless it's executing criminals, but that would be boring for both Lelith and the audience).
But I guess some rival could manage to rig the fight a bit - providing an opponent with better combat drugs or a surprise weapon doesn't sound too farfetched in the backstabbing Deldar society. What better way to get rid of a rival than making sure that rival dies in such an embarrassing way that he'll never be able to show his face in Comorragh again even if resurrected? So Lelith has probably survived a few rigged fights too over the years...
Nebulas1 wrote: Pretty sure anyone that can fly and has a gun has a distinct advantage. Quoting her arena history is kind of sketchy at best, for example I've done boxing and in a boxing ring I was matched against opponents in the name of competition. I doubt they'd put Lilith in the ring with someone she couldn't possibly beat despite the fact there is probably foes out there that fit that description.
That's the thing - she fights arena battles that are supposed to give the Dork Eldar their jollies from bloodshed and pain. Arena battles where opponents are totally chanceless probably wouldn't be very exciting, but passing out guns or grenades to just anyone won't do. Who's to say a combatant wouldn't decide to go apeshit on the audience instead of Lelith? So IMO the question of real war vs arena doesn't normally even come up because she only fights in the arena. Gladiatorial fights are supposed to be even in some way (unless it's executing criminals, but that would be boring for both Lelith and the audience).
But I guess some rival could manage to rig the fight a bit - providing an opponent with better combat drugs or a surprise weapon doesn't sound too farfetched in the backstabbing Deldar society. What better way to get rid of a rival than making sure that rival dies in such an embarrassing way that he'll never be able to show his face in Comorragh again even if resurrected? So Lelith has probably survived a few rigged fights too over the years...
As you've mentioned, I don't think the Dark Eldar arena is as easy going as people have made it out to be. Pain, death and suffering will nourish Dark Eldar regardless where it comes from, and for them I'd expect seeing quite a notable Wych get splatted would be equally as entertaining. Where's the fun and excitement if there isn't mortal danger involved?
I would agree that it's unlikely that they'd hand out guns and grenades (although again, if they turned on the audience the Dark Eldar would probably find their compatriots getting blown to smithereens funny more than anything). However, it's not as if they're up against squishy humans with spears. For example, they've captured Carnifexes for the arena before. Not exactly a stacked fight that one...
Also, I'm not certain where people have got the idea from that Lelith only ever stays in the arena. For one, we wouldn't have rules for her use on the tabletop if that was the case. Like any Wych, she accompanies Kabals on realspace raids frequently. For one instance, she's participated in an attack on an Alpha Legion fortress and dueled the CSM Lord there.
Ultimately, I do think the crunch is where the kernel of truth lies for these sorts of things. It's the only truly statistical way that we can analyse someone's martial prowess, and Lelith comes up short compared to a number of other characters. If only she'd use a shadowfield...
LightKing wrote: I know you guys said she wouldn't have a chance against the primarchs
but she could at least possibly beat at least a low tier primarch like Lorgar
right?
No, even the weakest Primarch is a demi god engineered to stand above pretty much anything they could encounter, and geared with the best equipment produced by Mankind. Lorgar's battling skill may not match Lelith's, but he's no slouch either, and one of his blow would be enough to kill her three times over. And I'm confident he's got the skills and the toughness (+ armor) to last until he manage to hit her.
I'm not certain. Primarchs are pretty OP. It's a bit of a theme of the 40k universe that the warriors, technology and overall power level of the past is greater than what's around now. That key theme is pretty much everywhere you look.
If she was a little more Reasonable Marines and took a Shadowfield and an Archite Glaive then perhaps
Ynneadwraith wrote: I'm not certain. Primarchs are pretty OP. It's a bit of a theme of the 40k universe that the warriors, technology and overall power level of the past is greater than what's around now. That key theme is pretty much everywhere you look.
If she was a little more Reasonable Marines and took a Shadowfield and an Archite Glaive then perhaps
LightKing wrote: I know you guys said she wouldn't have a chance against the primarchs
but she could at least possibly beat at least a low tier primarch like Lorgar
right?
Lorgar I'm pretty sure killed an Avatar with not too much effort and killed the big bad Bloodthirster.
Um, no. Lelith can not kill any primarch.
Worst fanwanking thread ever.
All of this fanwanking goes both ways it's apply to for primarch fanboys.
Lore wise, some of them had serious issues beating a custodes due how good they are. Yet lore wise a Shadowseer was able to dance in and kick a lot of custodes asses before being subdued.
And according to lore Shadowseer are gimps compared to the raw lethality a Grand Harlequin or even a Solitarie can bring.. and there is a piece of lore where Lelith consider that facing a Grand Harlequin can be a close match that she is amused by the possibility of been defeated.
So unless a novel properly comes out and put a real fight it's just fanbase speculation one way or another.
P.S: most of this post are just raw speculation, bring theory and suggest possiblities for the shake of discussion but don't get to blind on *your* absolute belief.
Bobthehero wrote:Movie Marines are Marines stats if they were the protagonist of an action movie, hence the movie part.
Ah- if you read the article, you'll find that it is about the novels and fluff- they get a lot of comments about how badass guys are in the books, but their statlines don't represent this. He ways that the fluff exaggerates the power level of characters in the same way as action movies do, and implies that the 40k rules represent their actual abilities.
Basically, they're saying that all Black Library fiction is to the 40k Universe what a John Woo Film is to reality.
Lord Perversor wrote:It's fluff there is not a clear answer and it contradices itself.
Yep. It all depends on who the protagonist is. Who has greater plot armor. Plus, if both characters are outfitted in full-plot armor, then neither will truly get the upper hand.
koooaei wrote:Ghazzy. If we're going to judge by fluff alone, Lilith has no way of beating him as long as Gork or possible Mork have an interest in this greenskin - and they do. He can literally take a hail of bullets to the face and continue walking forward
Actually, a more interesting question would be "what can kill a Primarch (barring actual gods) in a one on one duel?". I know there are a few swordsmen in 30k (sigismund, sevator) that came close in sparring matches but I seriously question who could best and kill a primarch in full "combat mode". Especially someone like Magnus or Ascendant Lorgar with all their magic BS.
There was an ork warboss who 'almost' beat Emps + Horus. Must be said that emp was not at his full psy capacity cause he was pretty far from Terra and had to spend a portion of his psy power to...do something...well, i don't remember what was the exact reasoning but the fact still stands - an ork warboss could beat emp without full psy. He could beat pre-chaossed Horus. He 'almost' beat them both. But that warboss was huge. And extremely orky.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
EmpNortonII wrote: A more interesting thread would be, "Name the weakest character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel."
technically, there's always chance. For anyone. If you want, you could count a duel between a grot (s2 t2) or brimstone horror (s1 t1, 5++ re-rolling ones) vs Lelith. And there'd still be chance. It'd take the entire string of zeroes but there would be something in the end.
Well, a grot has ~3.704% chance to wound Lelith per turn in melee. but than she starts getting fnp.With 6+ fnp it's ~3.086% and with 5+ fnp it's ~ 2.469% Means he needs ~121 turn to kill her.
Now the fun thing is that a grot isn't a character. So Lelith doesn't get re-rolls to hit and to-wound as she's not in a challenge and who's afraid of a single puny grot? She doesn't try hard enough to bother getting re-rolls. He'd probably die from a heart attack all by himself. Anywayz, a chance of NOT killing a grot with a single attack is whooping 55.55%. She has 7 on the charge and 6 afterwards - means that it's around. That's 1,63339967288101% to not kill a grot on the 1-st turn and 2,94011941118581% afterwards.
The chance of not killing a grot for 121 turns is 7,67809991483725e-188 and that's:
~00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000767809991483725%
EmpNortonII wrote: A more interesting thread would be, "Name the weakest character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel."
A conscript with a shotgun if he get really lucky. 99 times out of 100 Lelith would eviscerate the poor fether. But it's possible.
Reliably. For example, Sarpedon's several levels of power underneath Primarchs and Gaz and the like. His ind-fething powers would likely wreck her and he could kill her as she succumbs to fear.
EmpNortonII wrote: A more interesting thread would be, "Name the weakest character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel."
A conscript with a shotgun if he get really lucky. 99 times out of 100 Lelith would eviscerate the poor fether. But it's possible.
Reliably. For example, Sarpedon's several levels of power underneath Primarchs and Gaz and the like. His ind-fething powers would likely wreck her and he could kill her as she succumbs to fear.
Tiggy, Ahriman and really any well trained psyker. Lelith has no psychic defenses and would be an easy target for any well trained psyker. Sigmisund could probably do it too. He was an exceptional swordsman.
And yes, really, those are the weakest who could take her out reliably. I think the fanwanking of Lelith ITT is bad but I'll give credit where credit is due. Her whole schtick is being the best duelist in the galaxy.
If you want to really consider TT as basis for fluff, you need to go with the ones where they stated "these are the rules that match the fluff." Ie- Movie Marines. A Movie Marine sergeant can kill her- and remember Movie Marines are Space Marines according to the black library fluff. So most space marines from the black library books can off her.
IIRC the movie marine rules said the OPPOSITE. They said that in the Imperium there are going to be action movies that show marines as impossibly powerful and the movie marine rules were very much 'non realistic' even in the 40k sense of the word realistic.
Don't forget those rules allowed you to buy 'stunt doubles' to take wounds in place of the stars.
That said, I'm actually rather surprised marines don't have frag devices specifically for combating fast, horde like enemies. Strap them to the front of each pauldron or even the front of the shin and you'd have a fair advantage against half a dozen hormugaunts/stealers. Hell, a marine might even have fast enough reflexes to trigger such things in response to an incoming RPG type attack.
There was an old Image comics character named Claymore who did that. He was invulnerable so he'd charge into battle with claymore mines strapped to his chest.
EmpNortonII wrote: A more interesting thread would be, "Name the weakest character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel."
A conscript with a shotgun if he get really lucky. 99 times out of 100 Lelith would eviscerate the poor fether. But it's possible.
Reliably. For example, Sarpedon's several levels of power underneath Primarchs and Gaz and the like. His ind-fething powers would likely wreck her and he could kill her as she succumbs to fear.
Tiggy, Ahriman and really any well trained psyker. Lelith has no psychic defenses and would be an easy target for any well trained psyker. Sigmisund could probably do it too. He was an exceptional swordsman.
And yes, really, those are the weakest who could take her out reliably. I think the fanwanking of Lelith ITT is bad but I'll give credit where credit is due. Her whole schtick is being the best duelist in the galaxy.
Lord Perversor wrote: Lore wise, some of them had serious issues beating a custodes due how good they are.
Source? I keep on hearing this but never with an actual source or quote.
The only source I'm aware of would not be related to any old random custodes, but rather Valdor Constantine, who was said to be able to beat Horus occasionally in sparring sessions. It is discussed in the first few Horus Heresy Black Library books, if memory serves.
There was one with... Loken, I think? Dunno but it was amongst the best swordsmen (though not Kharn/Corswain/sevatar) in the Crusade Era and it had a hell of time against a regular custodes, winning only because the Custodes had been overcomfident in a sparring session.
Most daemon princes, primarch or otherwise, could do it handily.
But there are honestly a LOT of characters out there that could compete, against whom the outcome is more or less uncertain. This would involve most space marine characters, the tyranid broodlord, or even a genestealer patriarch for that matter.... What else...The Masque? Any Herald of Slaanesh. The Changeling. In fact, I'd say just about any daemonic heralds except for Nurgle's, they're pretty slow.
Zarakynel would murder her in fluff and game. She would have no save what so ever against her attacks since the souleater ignores ++'s and a single hit would ID her. Welcome to Slaanesh's palace Lilith
As mentioned before this thread would be far more appropriately titled: name a special character who CANNOT defeat Lilith Hesperax. She's more of a showman, although she is competent enough in battle. I would go so far as to say there are those in the dark City who would handily defeat her let alone the rest of the galaxy
Why not nightbringer, literally one of his attacks is to travel back in time and kill her parents. He can also suck her soul out, bathe her in antimatter, call down asteroids, shatter the earth she walks on, and summon a blast of energy that could destroy an imperial knight, and that's just a fragment. A full blown C'Tan like void dragon would just will her out of existence. It's a mismatch of dr manhattan on ozymandias kind of scales:
Grimgold wrote: Why not nightbringer, literally one of his attacks is to travel back in time and kill her parents. He can also suck her soul out, bathe her in antimatter, call down asteroids, shatter the earth she walks on, and summon a blast of energy that could destroy an imperial knight, and that's just a fragment. A full blown C'Tan like void dragon would just will her out of existence. It's a mismatch of dr manhattan on ozymandias kind of scales:
But the thing to remember there, is that Ozymandias actually won.
which is the other reason I used the clip,The C'tan could be outsmarted (which is how the silent lord beat them), but not beaten thru raw physical might such that lelith or ozy possessed. Before this scene you watched ozy kick the crap out of everyone who mattered, and the only person that landed a punch on him during the entire movie was the comedian, so I thought he made a good stand in for someone of Lelith's skills.
Lelith has gone up against more hulking physiques than Primarchs and always triumphed.
If you mean "hulking" in the literal sense: large, heavy and clumsy then yes. Yes she probably has. If your use of the word hulking translates to power then you don't have a very good understanding of 40k lore I'm afraid
Those things have to be the size of islands or continents. Sure she'll be faster and more skilled at fighting.... with her Knife, that isn't going to do much to something of that scale. Meanwhile the Norn Queen will however just be moving around, and more than likely smush Lilith, all the while not being even remotely aware that it was in a duel.
I think it is rare that they make planet fall, as they have very little need in doing so. All their wants and needs are supplied to them by the countless Tyranid organisims they produce.
Failing that unlikely scenario, a Dominatrix could see off Lilith quite easily.
Shucks, makes sense in a game and setting that tries to defy sense. Well then I nominate Creed because that cigar he's chomping on might be a cleverly hidden titan unleashing it's payload on Zeno scum.
I, CATO SICARIUS, AM UTTERLY APPALLED THAT I, CATO SICARIUS, HAVE NOT ONCE BEEN MENTIONED IN THIS THREAD! NONE CAN DENY THAT I, CATO SICARIUS, CAN EASILY TRIUMPTH OVER SOME DARSTARDLY XENOS WITCH AS I, CATO SICARIUS, AM THE GREATEST SWORDSMAN IN ALL OF THE IMPERIUM
arbiter7x wrote: I, CATO SICARIUS, AM UTTERLY APPALLED THAT I, CATO SICARIUS, HAVE NOT ONCE BEEN MENTIONED IN THIS THREAD! NONE CAN DENY THAT I, CATO SICARIUS, CAN EASILY TRIUMPTH OVER SOME DARSTARDLY XENOS WITCH AS I, CATO SICARIUS, AM THE GREATEST SWORDSMAN IN ALL OF THE IMPERIUM
8/10. Need to mention being the 2nd Company Captain of the Ultramarines and something about spiritual liege to really nail it out of the park but it was otherwise well executed
Castellan Garran Crowe still gets my vote for being the best dualist in the IoM plus he has cheat powers because hes a psyker. Could easily destroy Lelith.
arbiter7x wrote: I, CATO SICARIUS, AM UTTERLY APPALLED THAT I, CATO SICARIUS, HAVE NOT ONCE BEEN MENTIONED IN THIS THREAD! NONE CAN DENY THAT I, CATO SICARIUS, CAN EASILY TRIUMPTH OVER SOME DARSTARDLY XENOS WITCH AS I, CATO SICARIUS, AM THE GREATEST SWORDSMAN IN ALL OF THE IMPERIUM
8/10. Need to mention being the 2nd Company Captain of the Ultramarines and something about spiritual liege to really nail it out of the park but it was otherwise well executed
I don't remember the spiritual liege being mentioned in ITEHATTSD.
arbiter7x wrote: I, CATO SICARIUS, AM UTTERLY APPALLED THAT I, CATO SICARIUS, HAVE NOT ONCE BEEN MENTIONED IN THIS THREAD! NONE CAN DENY THAT I, CATO SICARIUS, CAN EASILY TRIUMPTH OVER SOME DARSTARDLY XENOS WITCH AS I, CATO SICARIUS, AM THE GREATEST SWORDSMAN IN ALL OF THE IMPERIUM
Who is this SCATO CITARUS character you are talking about and how does someone not notice that the SCATO nickname people gave to you is NOT an appellation you want to keep and nurture?
