With the new Horror rules from Wrath of Magnus coming out and the "Split" and "Split again" rules being leaked, I though it would be good to start a tactics thread on them.
This can be for using them, or defeating them, either way.
Initial thoughts: Unless FAQ'd, all Horrors can still use Malefic Daemonology. Just because they do not have it listed on their list of powers does NOT inherently revoke access to a rule that the BRB gives specific access to. It doesn't appear to be RAI, since other entries in the same book DO have Malefic Daemonology listed, but RAW, Horrors can still use it. Moving on.
16 Horrors may be the stand unit size for Pink Horrors (if they are taken at all)
I suspect that if you only take 11, opponents will just kill 1+ to reduce the WC, then ignore the Pinks for the remained of the game, killing the Blue and Brimstone units in later phases.
With 16 horrors, however, the unit is sizable enough to want to address it. If they kill 6 models to reduce WC, the Blue horror unit created will generate 2 WC. So the Deamon player will have 3 WC in their next turn either way (unless you can damage them in multiple phases)
1 unit of 16 is cheaper than 2 of 11 and requires less models, yet can still produce quite a few free units.
But really, most players will just skip the Pinks in favor of Blue Horrors, since they still produce 2WC at 11+ models, and are almost half the cost of Pinks.
An exception to this might be for those wanting to use the Warpflame Formations, which (unless otherwise stated) using Pink Horrors, not Blue nor Brimstone ones
Assault seems to be the only way to really kill the Horrors, since removing the whole unit from a failed Instability test is the only thing the prevents the "Split" rules
I'd still take pink horrors over blue for the increased number of unit splits. In non kill point games you could quiet easily spread your horrors around so a new unit is created after each round of shooting leading to lots of small ML1 units.
True. I used to always do 2x 11, but now I am thinking 1x 16 will be less frustrating for both players.
Modelwise, it will be hard for most to get all the models needed, since the only way to get Blue horrors is 3 from the Chariot or 4 from Silver Tower, along with only 4 Brimstone horrors. I'll probably paint a bit of blue onto my Pinks just so that I can "reuse" them as Blue horrors. So for each pink Horrors that dies, I will use that model plus 1 mostly Blue Horror for the 2 Blues created, keeping the actual Blues in between the 2 units to mark the squad differences. Since the Blues to Brimstones are a 1:1 model ratio, I will probably do the same, but get a handful of actual Brimstones to represent the unit. Hopefully in this way, I would only need 2-3 models for every 1 Pink Horror I field, rather than 5 total models (1 Pink, 2 Blues, 2 Brimstones).
These units + all the Nurglings I have are making my Daemons quite the Horde list. I am really curious if Blue & Brimstone Horrors will be allowed to be taken in the Warpflame Host. If they are, I can see a lot of that formation popping up.
I'm gonna run a CAD of 2x11 blue horrors to sit on OBJs, since the 11 brimstones they create will also be OBJSEC
Will they be? I thought the final FAQ said that units "summoned" or otherwise created would not benefit from detachment bonuses
I may have misread. I'll go check now
I'm gonna run a CAD of 2x11 blue horrors to sit on OBJs, since the 11 brimstones they create will also be OBJSEC
Will they be? I thought the final FAQ said that units "summoned" or otherwise created would not benefit from detachment bonuses
I may have misread. I'll go check now
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It could go either ways, depending on the tournament you go to. Most tournament formats (in the US) FAQ it as no, they are not ObSec (i.e. troop tervigon spawning gants).
For the purposes of game balance, I believe we will see the ruling that they are not ObSec. Otherwise, it really becomes quite ludicrous (as if it wasn't already).
Right, that is what I was thinking. Not Obsec unless purchased as part of your army list. Units created by special rules or powers are not purchased as part of your detachment, and thus will not benefit from detachment rules. For the sake of this discussion, I will assume this is the case.
Pink Horrors a very nasty unit to Summon now, as you get 10 horrors for free and they split into more Horrors. It's easily the most "wounds" you can summon
I'm sticking with 2 units, just for the extra splits, and because Brimstone Horrors are going to be double-fragile to Instability. While they have 2 wounds, they're only T1. While this gives them "some" resistance against Perils or Grav in theory, this simply means each Brimstone removed is another -2 modifier to the Instability check...which can potentially really hurt if it's a Multi-assault.
On a funnier note, Horror-splitting makes for amusing anti-Interceptor Insurance if you're using them for Deepstrike.
On a funnier note, Horror-splitting makes for amusing anti-Interceptor Insurance if you're using them for Deepstrike.
Oh my Tzeentch! you just made me thing of something. Deep Strike Pink Horrors intentionally into terrain (you want cover anyway) and any Pinks killed by Dangerous Terrain tests will create a new unit of Blue Horrors which add to your WC total.
That then brings up another question. If a unit of Blue horrors is created in your movement or psyhic phase (due to perils or whatever) is that unit allowed to assault? Not that you would want them to at all, but it the "Spit" rules do not say they are coming from reserve and are more like Termagants spawns by a Tevigon, which can assault the turn they are spawned.
On another note, assault is definitely going to be the main way to deal with Horrors. If you shoot them, don't shoot them with the units you want to use for Assault...or else they have the option when splitting off the new unit to spawn it directly in front and block off the assault vector.
Modelwise, it will be hard for most to get all the models needed, since the only way to get Blue horrors is 3 from the Chariot or 4 from Silver Tower, along with only 4 Brimstone horrors. I'll probably paint a bit of blue onto my Pinks just so that I can "reuse" them as Blue horrors.
So for each pink Horrors that dies, I will use that model plus 1 mostly Blue Horror for the 2 Blues created, keeping the actual Blues in between the 2 units to mark the squad differences.
Since the Blues to Brimstones are a 1:1 model ratio, I will probably do the same, but get a handful of actual Brimstones to represent the unit.
Hopefully in this way, I would only need 2-3 models for every 1 Pink Horror I field, rather than 5 total models (1 Pink, 2 Blues, 2 Brimstones).
I can almost guarentee this rules change is to allow GW to sell us a new Blue and Brimstone Horror Kit.
I find the new horrors to be both a huge boon and a huge detriment to their current rules. Against armies like Tau, necrons and other gunline armies they seem like a HUGE pain to get off the board, while in CC they have recieved an incredible debuff, many players who don't play daemons and think the new rules are overpowered forget one thing, daemonic instability. Against pink horrors the likelyhood of you losing units to instability are high, against blue or brimstone horrors there is a chance for them to be wiped in one turn, especially if your taking units of 20 toughness 2 models, you could possibly lose combat by 10 and subsiquently lose 10 models on an average leadership role. Thats why I personally think the new rules look fairly balanced.
Reavas wrote: I find the new horrors to be both a huge boon and a huge detriment to their current rules. Against armies like Tau, necrons and other gunline armies they seem like a HUGE pain to get off the board, while in CC they have recieved an incredible debuff, many players who don't play daemons and think the new rules are overpowered forget one thing, daemonic instability. Against pink horrors the likelyhood of you losing units to instability are high, against blue or brimstone horrors there is a chance for them to be wiped in one turn, especially if your taking units of 20 toughness 2 models, you could possibly lose combat by 10 and subsiquently lose 10 models on an average leadership role. Thats why I personally think the new rules look fairly balanced.
That's why you take as small of squads as possible so that they get wiped out from the close combat attacks instead because then they will still get to split into smaller horrors
Reavas wrote: I find the new horrors to be both a huge boon and a huge detriment to their current rules. Against armies like Tau, necrons and other gunline armies they seem like a HUGE pain to get off the board, while in CC they have recieved an incredible debuff, many players who don't play daemons and think the new rules are overpowered forget one thing, daemonic instability. Against pink horrors the likelyhood of you losing units to instability are high, against blue or brimstone horrors there is a chance for them to be wiped in one turn, especially if your taking units of 20 toughness 2 models, you could possibly lose combat by 10 and subsiquently lose 10 models on an average leadership role. Thats why I personally think the new rules look fairly balanced.
That's why you take as small of squads as possible so that they get wiped out from the close combat attacks instead because then they will still get to split into smaller horrors
There are of course ways to minimise the damage of instability, but smaller squads are more vunerable to shooting, so its really personal preferance and what you go up against in your local meta. Also do we know the exact wording of the new rules? As it would be interesting to see if the new horrors are a seperate unit or remain in the same unit of horrors they split from. Its the little wordings that can really make a big differance to how powerful these things will be on the table. But Im definatly seeing fast, cheap CC units being a problem for the horrors
Reavas wrote: I find the new horrors to be both a huge boon and a huge detriment to their current rules. Against armies like Tau, necrons and other gunline armies they seem like a HUGE pain to get off the board, while in CC they have recieved an incredible debuff, many players who don't play daemons and think the new rules are overpowered forget one thing, daemonic instability. Against pink horrors the likelyhood of you losing units to instability are high, against blue or brimstone horrors there is a chance for them to be wiped in one turn, especially if your taking units of 20 toughness 2 models, you could possibly lose combat by 10 and subsiquently lose 10 models on an average leadership role. Thats why I personally think the new rules look fairly balanced.
That's why you take as small of squads as possible so that they get wiped out from the close combat attacks instead because then they will still get to split into smaller horrors
There are of course ways to minimise the damage of instability, but smaller squads are more vunerable to shooting, so its really personal preferance and what you go up against in your local meta. Also do we know the exact wording of the new rules? As it would be interesting to see if the new horrors are a seperate unit or remain in the same unit of horrors they split from. Its the little wordings that can really make a big differance to how powerful these things will be on the table. But Im definatly seeing fast, cheap CC units being a problem for the horrors
Yes scans of the ful horrorl rules are out (i found them in the rumors thread in the rumours forum). They create a new unit unless there is a unit of same models within 6" in which case they join the existing unit. And you get to do split no matter what except when wiped out by instability (so you would get to split even if you took wounds from instability but didn't get wiped)
Also being a smaller unit doesn't make you more vulnerable to shooitng
Reavas wrote: I find the new horrors to be both a huge boon and a huge detriment to their current rules. Against armies like Tau, necrons and other gunline armies they seem like a HUGE pain to get off the board, while in CC they have recieved an incredible debuff, many players who don't play daemons and think the new rules are overpowered forget one thing, daemonic instability. Against pink horrors the likelyhood of you losing units to instability are high, against blue or brimstone horrors there is a chance for them to be wiped in one turn, especially if your taking units of 20 toughness 2 models, you could possibly lose combat by 10 and subsiquently lose 10 models on an average leadership role. Thats why I personally think the new rules look fairly balanced.
That's why you take as small of squads as possible so that they get wiped out from the close combat attacks instead because then they will still get to split into smaller horrors
There are of course ways to minimise the damage of instability, but smaller squads are more vunerable to shooting, so its really personal preferance and what you go up against in your local meta. Also do we know the exact wording of the new rules? As it would be interesting to see if the new horrors are a seperate unit or remain in the same unit of horrors they split from. Its the little wordings that can really make a big differance to how powerful these things will be on the table. But Im definatly seeing fast, cheap CC units being a problem for the horrors
Yes scans of the ful horrorl rules are out (i found them in the rumors thread in the rumours forum). They create a new unit unless there is a unit of same models within 6" in which case they join the existing unit. And you get to do split no matter what except when wiped out by instability (so you would get to split even if you took wounds from instability but didn't get wiped)
Also being a smaller unit doesn't make you more vulnerable to shooitng
It makes you more susceptible to losing a whole unit to shooting, meaning easier victory points and you have to be more careful in both maelstrom and Purge the alien. There are perks and downsides, that's what makes this game great, its the units that ignore that and are in all cases amazing *cough* Windriders *cough* so Im excited to the new rules, and wow, so a whole new unit? that's pretty crazy
If a units toughness is reduced to 0, that unit is removed from play right? So if you get enfeeble on biomancy you could try casting enfeeble against the brimstones to remove them from play. possibly bait the denials out on a better powers (like invis or veil etc.,) and enfeeble them after the WC have been expended.
Vilehydra wrote: If a units toughness is reduced to 0, that unit is removed from play right? So if you get enfeeble on biomancy you could try casting enfeeble against the brimstones to remove them from play. possibly bait the denials out on a better powers (like invis or veil etc.,) and enfeeble them after the WC have been expended.
Alternatively, charge them with Skitarii Vanguard or an Inquisitor with Rad Grenades (or for Blue Horrors, both!).
Vilehydra wrote: If a units toughness is reduced to 0, that unit is removed from play right? So if you get enfeeble on biomancy you could try casting enfeeble against the brimstones to remove them from play. possibly bait the denials out on a better powers (like invis or veil etc.,) and enfeeble them after the WC have been expended.
Alternatively, charge them with Skitarii Vanguard or an Inquisitor with Rad Grenades (or for Blue Horrors, both!).
Ooh your right, gotta get them -1 T action, just imagine some vanguard charging the brimstones as they just wisp away.
Also does the rule state that a split occurs when a model is removed from play, or as a casualty etc.,?
Here's an interesting question: Since the Split rule states that if a rule removes the whole unit (except Instability) that you place the new unit within 6" of the last Horror removed. Does this count normal stuff like shooting?
For example, if a unit of Pink Horrors is completely wiped out in the shooting phase, do you still get to make the new unit of Blue horrors within 6" of the last Pinkie removed? Or does that only apply to special rules that specifically "remove the whole unit" like a 1 on the Perils?
I can see an argument for not getting Split if you can kill the unit in a single phase without using a "rule" to do it. Yet I can also see the counter-argument that even conventional means of removing a unit (like shooting or killing every model in assault before Instability) are still "rules".
Sorry for the weird angles. I find it interesting that Pinks have the "Split" rule, which is detailed on the Blues' datasheet, and the Blues have the "Split Again" rule, which is detailed on the Brimstones' datasheet
I would aay that killing the whole unit still causes blue horrors to appear, i.e. the rule that states a failed saving throw causes the model to lose a wound and therefore be removed, would allow blue horrors to be spawned.
mrhappyface wrote: I would aay that killing the whole unit still causes blue horrors to appear, i.e. the rule that states a failed saving throw causes the model to lose a wound and therefore be removed, would allow blue horrors to be spawned.
That is what I was thinking too. It also says "immediately", which means that if you can kill an entire unit of Pinks, the Blues are created before the phase ends, so it may be possible to kill all Pinks, Blues and Brimstones in a single phase *IF* you still have shooting left
For example, you are shooting at 1 unit of 11 Pinks. Lets use Scatterbikes as that is the most likely option to have enough shots. Scatterbike unit A shoots and Kills all 11 Pinks (unlikely with only 12 shots, but let's roll with it). 22 Blues are immediately placed within 6" of the last horror removed (presumably the farthest from the Scatter bikes) Scatterbike units B,C & D, then kill all 22 Blues. 22 Brimstone Horror bases are now created (which BTW is only 1 WC). The rest of the Eldar army is free to shoot/assault or ignore those Horrors unit next turn.
So it is "possible" to kill all the Horrors made from the initial 99pt investment in a single turn (rather than the 3 turns it "effectively" will take). But if it takes Eldar over 400pts to do it, that should send a clear message.
Edit: The "immediately" wording also implies that a unti that has already taken casualties in a prior turn will be much easier to dispatch. If only 3 Pinks are left from a previous turn, it will be quick easy to kill them, them kill the 6 Blues created, then the 6 Brimstoned created. That's only 9 total wounds (we can safely count the 2Ws for each Brimstone as only 1W, unless you are Dark Eldar) that just about every weapon wounds on 2+
Ok so a summary of some cool tricks we have discussed:
-Deep striking Horrors into terrain both gives a cover save for later, and any failed dangerous terrain tests create a new unit that with an new power and its own WC (although presumably we would lose a WC if the originally horror unit started at 11 models)
-We can use the new unit of Blues to block assaults from the unit that shot at the Pinks.
-As new units can be place within 6", you can have your Pinks or Blue new LOS blocking terrain and place the new units behind said terrain. Kinda like Daemon "Flicker Jump" This can also be used to advance unit toward objectives.
____________Some anti-Horror tactics: -Killing the whole unit produces the new unit before the end of the phase, allowing you to continue damaging them
-Instability is not the Horrors friend. If you can get to Pinks and assault them, wiping them to a small number (not wiping them out) then the ensuing Instability check is sure to finish them off and prevent splitting.
Another 'nice' idea is to use pink horrors instead of screamers for the bases of a daemon star with the jump unit artifact. You still have a 2++ re-rollable save with potential invis but now your base unit produces warp charge and produces new units when someone does get a shot through the invis and saves (add the loci of creation for even more horrors exploding from the star). You could also use the Herald formation for extra WC for each Herald you add into your "horrorstar".
Galef wrote: Ok so a summary of some cool tricks we have discussed:
-Deep striking Horrors into terrain both gives a cover save for later, and any failed dangerous terrain tests create a new unit that with an new power and its own WC (although presumably we would lose a WC if the originally horror unit started at 11 models)
-We can use the new unit of Blues to block assaults from the unit that shot at the Pinks.
-As new units can be place within 6", you can have your Pinks or Blue new LOS blocking terrain and place the new units behind said terrain. Kinda like Daemon "Flicker Jump"
This can also be used to advance unit toward objectives.
____________Some anti-Horror tactics:
-Killing the whole unit produces the new unit before the end of the phase, allowing you to continue damaging them
-Instability is not the Horrors friend. If you can get to Pinks and assault them, wiping them to a small number (not wiping them out) then the ensuing Instability check is sure to finish them off and prevent splitting.
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Why would you not want to wipe them out in combat? Wouldn't that count as losing the combat and thus still force a daemonic instability test?
Because if so, they would be pretty easy to deal with in melee. Which is likely where you would end up in when trying to get them off an objective to claim it for yourself.
Why would you not want to wipe them out in combat? Wouldn't that count as losing the combat and thus still force a daemonic instability test? Because if so, they would be pretty easy to deal with in melee. Which is likely where you would end up in when trying to get them off an objective to claim it for yourself.
You want to wipe them with the Instability check, not will your actual attacks, as it reads as the only thing that prevents Splitting. If you kill all 11 Pinks before they test, 22 Blues will pop up 6" from the last Pink removed. If, however, you kill only 9-10, leaving the last 1-2 pinks to take an Instability check, and they fail that check by enough to kill the remaining Pinks, then 0 Blues are created.
Daemonic instability happens before the split comes into effect. So my understanding is that it can bring back the entire unit even after killing them all. Therefore even after killing them all, you would still test. Then in order to remove the unit entirely from instability, you would need to kill as many horrors as were present at the start of the fight (let's assume all). So killing them all would incur a greater penalty on the leadership test and give you a greater chance to remove them all.
By the time you check for split, the entire unit would have already been removed via instability and therefore not eligible to split. That was my first impression anyway, though I can't say I stand by it lol
Roknar wrote: Daemonic instability happens before the split comes into effect. So my understanding is that it can bring back the entire unit even after killing them all. Therefore even after killing them all, you would still test. Then in order to remove the unit entirely from instability, you would need to kill as many horrors as were present at the start of the fight (let's assume all). So killing them all would incur a greater penalty on the leadership test and give you a greater chance to remove them all.
By the time you check for split, the entire unit would have already been removed via instability and therefore not eligible to split. That was my first impression anyway, though I can't say I stand by it lol
What??? You are saying exactly what I am. I am confused at your confusion Except for the testing after killing them all. That doesn't happen. If you kill them all, not test is taken as the unit is now dead.
My point about not wiping them before they test is to ensure that they have a test to make. You are right, Split happens at the end of the phase, so if you kill them all, the original unit is not alive to test, therefore no Instability test is taken and Split can now occur. In fact it happens immediately once the last Horror dies and since it's a new unit and not part of the combat, it would not be subject to Instability.
You want to kill all but a few, forcing an Instability check on the survivors, which they should fail and then be removed. Split doesn't happen if Instability removes the unit. Does that make sense now?
Roknar wrote: Daemonic instability happens before the split comes into effect. So my understanding is that it can bring back the entire unit even after killing them all. Therefore even after killing them all, you would still test. Then in order to remove the unit entirely from instability, you would need to kill as many horrors as were present at the start of the fight (let's assume all). So killing them all would incur a greater penalty on the leadership test and give you a greater chance to remove them all.
By the time you check for split, the entire unit would have already been removed via instability and therefore not eligible to split. That was my first impression anyway, though I can't say I stand by it lol
What??? You are saying exactly what I am. I am confused at your confusion
Except for the testing after killing them all. That doesn't happen. If you kill them all, not test is taken as the unit is now dead.
My point about not wiping them before they test is to ensure that they have a test to make. You are right, Split happens at the end of the phase, so if you kill them all, the original unit is not alive to test, therefore no Instability test is taken and Split can now occur. In fact it happens immediately once the last Horror dies and since it's a new unit and not part of the combat, it would not be subject to Instability.
You want to kill all but a few, forcing an Instability check on the survivors, which they should fail and then be removed. Split doesn't happen if Instability removes the unit.
Does that make sense now?
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I read over the rules again and you're correct.
I thought instability could bring a completely dead unit back, which would allow you to test for instability regardless. But even then, split would kick in early due to the unit being completetly removed.
So the only way to get rid of them whithout splitting is, as you say, to kill all but a few. At least unless they release a faq that changes that to special rule rather than rule.
JNAProductions wrote: What happens if instability restores the unit? Do dead horrors still generate splits?
I believe since the rule says that 2 Blue Horrors are created for every SLAIN Pink horror, and double 1's on an Instability check makes them no longer slain, no splits occur
Would there be any merit in killing your own horrors? With the jump artifact you could cause dangerous terrain tests and with enough models should result in at least one casualty. Seeing as how you can choose what the best save is, you could choose their armour save to kill one for sure. And this would be before the psychic phase so you could immediately benefit from that warp charge. Alternatively, geomortis not only helps those ap3 bolters actually do something, but it allows you to cause wounds on your own models too. Rupture would cause 1 wound on a 2+ and you could choose the worst save again to kill a lone horror. Perhaps even a blue and a pink in order to get an extra WC. Worldwrithe would also allow you to test for dangerous terrain.
It would seem to more beneficial to have all three units out as soon as possible to benefit from all the warpcharges, plus your opponent now has three units to shoot as opposed to killing one unit over 3 turns.
And if you can choose the assault yourself, instability is also hugely beneficial if you can spawn horrors from killed horrors that return. Just go charge some weak sauce unit. Altough it doesn't look like there is an answer to that. It really depends on your interpretation or "common sense" as GW so eloquently put it...
I had the same problem when looking at the chaos achilles land raider and whether repairing lost hullpoints still counts them as lost( and restored) or never having lost any to begin with.
Right, you may only choose the best save available. Horrors have no armour save, so it isn't available to them to take.
But there is merit is assaulting a unit late game. Lets say you went first and your opponent is near an objective (but not quite on it yet). You could assault the unit and as long as you don't die but still take casualties, you pin the enemy away from the objective, while at the same time, creating a unit on top of the objective (if close enough)
Also if you had second turn and the game might end, and there is a weak enemy unit on an objective (like some Scatterbikes), you could charge them, hopefully pulling them off with their pile-in move, then any horrors created can split onto that objective.
It's a lot of "ifs, buts and coconuts", but something to keep in mind for objective grabbing. Since new units are created within 6", each new unit provides amazing board control
It could still work though, just won't be guaranteed to split your units. Malefic on the other hand simply removes models on sacrifice and possession. No idea how they handle that in tournaments, but technically they could cast both until they faq it. Assuming they are even aware that almost every psyker in the game gets access to daemonolgy by default. They keep listing it like that makes any difference.
Can daemons embark on transports? Because I just realized when a model that gets nommed by daemonic possession would also not create a horror. In order to embark you remove them from the table, then possession would kick in and at the end of the phase there is no unit to place a model next to, and they weren't removed as a whole either.
I'm really just spitballing ways to kill a horror or two in your turn in order to get all 3 units on the board and get all three warp charges. Your own movement phase would be the best place to do that in, since that way you'd get to use them immediatly.
Even if you're not going out of your way to kill them though, things like dangerous terrain might be something to consider.
Do Pink Horrors retain access to Malefic Daemonology? I assume Blue and Brimstone Horrors won't. Even if they don't, I imagine they'll be still used for batteries instead.
MagicJuggler wrote: Do Pink Horrors retain access to Malefic Daemonology? I assume Blue and Brimstone Horrors won't. Even if they don't, I imagine they'll be still used for batteries instead.
Unless specifically stated otherwise all of them have access to daemonology.
As the BRB specifically grants Daemonology to ALL psykers (except to Nids, Santic for Daemons and Malefic for GKS), unit entries must give SPECIFIC instructions that a psyker cannot use Daemonology, or an FAQ/Errata must do so.
The screen shots for the Blue & Brimstone horrors are in this thread and neither of them disallow Daemonology.
I, for one, would be happy if they could NOT take it since it leads to so much abuse, but as I have said before:
The absence of a rule on a datasheet that the BRB inherently grants does not disallow that rule.
Otherwise, Flesh hounds would not have Fleet (as all Beasts have) and Space Marine bikes would not have Relentless (as all Bikes have)
All Psykers have access to Daemonology unless otherwise stated. It needs to be stated
The omission is a statement. Other psykers in 7th Edition books, including the very same book the Split Horrors are in, specify if a model has access to Daemonology.
Rules debates aside (unless you want to have Eldar summoning daemons again with -1 to warp charges), Horrors are going to be the go-to unit.
Most will likely take 2 units in a CAD, at which point it would be better to ignore them rather than try to whittle them down. Keeping your own obsec alive is the name of the game I think.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: The omission is a statement. Other psykers in 7th Edition books, including the very same book the Split Horrors are in, specify if a model has access to Daemonology.
Omission is absolutely NOT "stating otherwise". If it was, than every codex released in 6th ed would not have access to Daemonology.
Also see my example about Flesh Hound and Fleet. The Flesh Hound datasheet DOES NOT have Fleet, but they're unit type is granted it on the BRB. The Horrors datasheet does not have Daemonology, but being a Psyker grants it in the BRB.
You have to remember that it is not stated anywhere what edition a codex is made in. If I was brand new to 7th ed, all current codices are 7th ed, whether they were released prior to that or not.
You certainly have a good RAI argument that since other Psykers in the same book have Daemonology, then Horrors are meant to not have it, but the RAW are quite clear
I wish they didn't and I will probably avoid using it with my Pinks, but other players with less restraint are free to use it.
Most will likely take 2 units in a CAD, at which point it would be better to ignore them rather than try to whittle them down. Keeping your own obsec alive is the name of the game I think.
That might be a reason to kill those 2 units. Horrors that have been split are not ObSec, so if you kill the original 2 Pink units, no more Obsec. But then you have twice as many models to deal with, so it's a win-win for Daemons
How about the issue that GW doesn't sell Brimestone Horror kits? Clearly if you are going this route for troops, then you'll need a lot but they are only available in the Silver Tower box @ 4 total models a pop... I can already see tons of proxy knock offs or an influx of re-casts from China unless there is some sort of new box that contains a reasonable amount of these models.
Bach wrote: How about the issue that GW doesn't sell Brimestone Horror kits? Clearly if you are going this route for troops, then you'll need a lot but they are only available in the Silver Tower box @ 4 total models a pop... I can already see tons of proxy knock offs or an influx of re-casts from China unless there is some sort of new box that contains a reasonable amount of these models.
I would say it's highly likely they will be a pre-order option in the coming few weeks
I just orders 24 Wood Elf Dryad Heads for $12. Gonna put 2 floating on flames each base. That will get me 12 Brimstone bases, so $1 per model isn't bad.
I'm gonna hold off on making more as I really hope GW makes a box with 10 Blues and 10 Brimstones soon
EDIT: I just realized something dumb about Blue Horrors. Their rule "Magic's offspring" says that a unit of 11-20 Blues generates 2WC instead of 1. Now a unit purchased can buy up to 20 models, but what about if a Pink Horror unit is near and gets split?
Can the unit go above 20 models? and if so than the unit only generate 1 WC, and it s no longer 11-20 models, it's 21+
Or why couldn't the rule have just said 11+ models or 15+
Another silly thought came to mind, and that's using Brimstone Horrors to hijack a Rhino or so as a cheap Predator-alternative. (Or to hijack a Renegades&Heretics Chimera...).
I'm kinda surprised no one's talking about Tzeentch Clown Car with the new horror rules (or maybe they did but I'm too tired to catch on). Oh, the humanity! I can see it now, over half the table covered in little pink, blue, and orange monsters...
Right, as it stands, Horrors can take Daemonology, so imagine a unit of 10 Pinks getting Possession. They cast it and are removed, thus immediately producing 20 Blue Horrors AND the Greater Daemon they conjured.
Galef wrote: Right, as it stands, Horrors can take Daemonology, so imagine a unit of 10 Pinks getting Possession. They cast it and are removed, thus immediately producing 20 Blue Horrors AND the Greater Daemon they conjured.
And then the blue horrors roll possession again and spawn another greater daemon and 20 brimstone's?
I'm not sure what they were thinking with this, they've over trebbled the survivability of an already good unit and increased the warp charge potential. Aside from fluff and modeling there's very little incentive to take the other lesser daemons now competitively. The points cost should have increased just to preserve a little internal balance in the daemon codex...
When you summon 10 horrors now, you're summoning around 50 models worth of annoyance units!
Galef wrote: Right, as it stands, Horrors can take Daemonology, so imagine a unit of 10 Pinks getting Possession. They cast it and are removed, thus immediately producing 20 Blue Horrors AND the Greater Daemon they conjured.
Jesus christ! I didn't even think of that!
This is the reason why Horrors need to NOT have access to Daemonology. Hopefully the Pink Horror datasheet (which we haven't seen) has a rule that say Pink, Blue and Brimstones can only take Change and not Daemonology at all. AND increase the points cost of Pinks. But I doubt it
koooaei wrote: I've calculated that horrors are ~7.5 times more durable than Magnus vs bolters point to point.
Wait. are you saying that 72 Pink Horrors (~650pts) takes 7x the amount of bolter fire to kill than Magnus?
Which is basically saying that 10 Pink Horrors = Magnus in terms of durability.
Or get some 'Come to the apocalypse' Grey knights with cleansing flame.
The enemy is entering the battlefield and sees the grey knights fighting the horrors but with every wave of holy flames they're splitting up. STOP KILLING THEM BROTHER YOUR JUST MAKING MORE!!!!
EDIT: wait wait, I got a better one... If you're not allowed to take 'come to the apocalypse' then you could also get sum ork weirdboyz with grots that go for sanctic.
Lets get 10 horror units.
In the psychic phase you cast sanctuary + cleansing flame
With cleansing flame you got an average of 5 dead horrors in each unit. Thats 50 dead horrors and then you get 100 blue horrors. These blue horrors do a run move within the sanctuary bubble and have to do a dangerous terrain check. Then end the end of the shooting phase you get brimstone horrors. Then at the end of the turn you have to check for soul blaze wounds(cleansing flame) and those pink horrors make a few more blue horrors. Next turn sanctuary is still up so everybody can shuffle within the bubble for more dangerous terrain checks. what a mess....
Do note though, as per the FAQany horror generated by splitting is NOT objsec, nor gains any other formation/detachment benefits.
So, the infinite horde is not NEARLY as bonkers as initially thought out to be.
They are still pretty good mind you, as pinks are a nightmare to take care of, brimes are cheap as hell charges and blues are in a sweetspot in between.
Not sure what horrors I'm going to field to power up my 1ksons actually. possibly the blues for a nice midground.
JNAProductions wrote: Not broken? One Pink Horror takes 15 Bolter shots to take down. A Necron Warrior in a Decurion takes only 12.
At least they cannot Summon units anymore, nor can they be relied on to generate Cursed Earth, which may mean not getting that at all in some games.
I am impressed at how fast they got this FAQ out. Good job GW!
Yea that was extremely fast. Good job indeed. Although they forgot to make an errata that psykers don't have daemonology automatically, so everybody else still has it. This faq makes it clear to me that they they seem to have forgotten about that rule.
The faq clearly goes against the rules in the BRB. It's good that they "fixed" it , don't get me wrong, but they really should go the extra mile and make erratas for the various factions.
That's a bummer that Pinks lost it though it makes sense I suppose, I don't see much reason to run Pinks over Blues now though, as the 44 point difference between 11 Pink and 11 Blues is almost enough to grab another Herald.
Anyone else notice that only PINK horrors cannot use Malefic? So Blues & Brimstones still can?
Not how I am gonna play it, but seriously, why can't GW think the whole situation through and answer accordingly? For example: "Q: Do the new Pink Horrors get Malefic psychic powers? A: No, they do not get Daemonology (Malefic) Powers."
-----Could have easily been this: "Q: Do the new Pink, Blue or Brimstone Horrors get Malefic psychic powers? A: No, they do not get Daemonology (Malefic) Powers."
-----Or even just remove the word "Pink" entirely: "Q: Do the new Horrors get Malefic psychic powers? A: No, they do not get Daemonology (Malefic) Powers."
Galef wrote: Anyone else notice that only PINK horrors cannot use Malefic? So Blues & Brimstones still can?
Not how I am gonna play it, but seriously, why can't GW think the whole situation through and answer accordingly?
For example:
"Q: Do the new Pink Horrors get Malefic psychic powers?
A: No, they do not get Daemonology (Malefic) Powers."
Could have easily been this:
"Q: Do the new Pink, Blue or Brimstone Horrors get Malefic psychic powers?
A: No, they do not get Daemonology (Malefic) Powers."
-
They probably didn't think they needed to since only pink horrors have an errata specifying that they do get malefic. Newer unit entries like Eldar's psykers listing only Sanctic daemonology makes it clear that we're supposed to follow post-7ed unit entries to the word inspite of the BRB rules for daemonology (codex>rulebook and such). And now that the only reason Pink Horrors could technically still have malefic is gone I doubt anyone is going to let blue and brimstone horrors still do it (like no one lets Eldar still get malefic)
I am not implying that I would use Malefic with Blues or Brimstones, just that the option is still there, despite the overwhelming RAI for them not to have it. It would have been so easy for the FAQ to have left no doubt using either example I provided, but they didn't, so you can expect someone to abuse it
Even without using Malefic, I am very happy with Horrors now. I will still be using Pinks, but only 1 unit of 11 to start with instead of 2 units.
@ Crownaxe: again this isn't a Codex > BRB issue as the BRB gives permission and the Codex does not actually revoke that permission. The FAQ now does, but specifically for Pinks, but should have been for all (as I will be playing it). But if another player claimed to use Malefic for his Blues, I could not in good conscience find a legit RAW argument against it. Plenty of RAI evidence, but not RAW. If you want to claim that the asbsence of a rule/USR in a codex actually denies that rule given in the BRB, then FleshHounds do not have Fleet.
Captyn_Bob wrote: A more pressing rules question, say you are required to place down some spawned horrors, but are out of models. Are those horrors 'destroyed'?
Split specifies you need models in order to spawn them so those horrors don't get spawned
I am not implying that I would use Malefic with Blues or Brimstones, just that the option is still there, despite the overwhelming RAI for them not to have it.
It would have been so easy for the FAQ to have left no doubt using either example I provided, but they didn't, so you can expect someone to abuse it
Even without using Malefic, I am very happy with Horrors now. I will still be using Pinks, but only 1 unit of 11 to start with instead of 2 units.
@ Crownaxe: again this isn't a Codex > BRB issue as the BRB gives permission and the Codex does not actually revoke that permission. The FAQ now does, but specifically for Pinks, but should have been for all (as I will be playing it). But if another player claimed to use Malefic for his Blues, I could not in good conscience find a legit RAW argument against it. Plenty of RAI evidence, but not RAW.
If you want to claim that the asbsence of a rule/USR in a codex actually denies that rule given in the BRB, then FleshHounds do not have Fleet.
-
Like I said, no one lets eldar still summon daemons and they have the same exact rules situation.
Captyn_Bob wrote: A more pressing rules question, say you are required to place down some spawned horrors, but are out of models. Are those horrors 'destroyed'?
I would think that would be the obvious, nah the only answer. You cannot play models you don't have*
*proxies not with-standing. I suspect this will encourage stricter "counts-as" rules within gaming communities
Like I said, no one lets eldar still summon daemons and they have the same exact rules situation.
But this actually is a different situation because A) BRB gives permission to use Daemonology, but does not specific which (except for Daemons & GKs), so specifying Sanctic satisfies the BRBs permission given B) It's a choice players make, but you can argue Eldar can still use Malefic
As Roknar mentioned, GW keeps forgetting that the BRB gives inherent access to ALL Psykers to take Daemonology. Codices/FAQs need to specifically revoke this access. GW seems to think that just by not including it on new entries that we will just "get the jist" but this is flawed since there is not written rule about keeping track of what books came out in which order.
Captyn_Bob wrote: A more pressing rules question, say you are required to place down some spawned horrors, but are out of models. Are those horrors 'destroyed'?
I would think that would be the obvious, nah the only answer. You cannot play models you don't have*
*proxies not with-standing. I suspect this will encourage stricter "counts-as" rules within gaming communities
Like I said, no one lets eldar still summon daemons and they have the same exact rules situation.
But this actually is a different situation because
A) BRB gives permission to use Daemonology, but does not specific which (except for Daemons & GKs), so specifying Sanctic satisfies the BRBs permission given
B) It's a choice players make, but you can argue Eldar can still use Malefic
-
A)The BRB does specify that you get both unless your daemons or grey knights
B) Yep, but just about unanimously no one is playing it that way. Blue/Brimstone Horrors are most defintely going to get the same treatment from players.
If no one is going to let them play with malefic powers, there is not point to keep arguing for it.
My concern is, in a kill point game, a player could "not unpack" the spare horrors. And gain an unfair advantage from selective model owning.
Not likely to be a big issue sure.
Pink Horror has one wound, with a 5+ save, at T3. Assuming BS4, that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 2.25 past the 3+ to wound, and 3.375 with BS4 hitting.
Each Blue and Brimstone Horror is mostly the same, except at T2/1, so they get wounded on a 2+. So that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 1.8 with the 2+ to wound, and 2.7 with BS4 hitting. Times 4, because there are two blue and two brimstone horrors.
So sorry-I did the math initially mentally. It's actually 14.175 Bolter shots to take them down.
A Necron Warrior (at 4 PPM more) is one wound, with a 4+ Reanimate for 2, 4+ save for 4, wounding on 4s for 8, and hitting on 3s for 12.
Captyn_Bob wrote: My concern is, in a kill point game, a player could "not unpack" the spare horrors. And gain an unfair advantage from selective model owning. Not likely to be a big issue sure.
Meh.
More often than not...
I can see people trying to squeeze more points out of CADs by going to Brimmies as obj sec troops in cover and cheap WC batteries. For 70pts (right?) you can have 2 10xBrimmies, hiding in cover near an obj. The points saved could be used to maximize beatsticks in daemon list.
I think everyone knew that was coming. There's no way it wasn't. What **is** surprising is that GW has FAQed a contentious rule within 7 days of it being released. I'm legitimately shocked.
30 each, so 60.
The blues and pinks are inherently better value, but yeah a way to trim down points.nurglings still have a place tho, what with shrouded and infiltrate.
I see 2x 11 Blues as the middle ground between best value and what you get. By dropping down to Blues, you save 88pts over 2x 11 Pinks. That's enough points to have a ML2 Disc Herald
Like Pinks, having 11+ in a unit gives you 2WC, yet you get effectively 2 wounds per model, 1 for the initial Blue and "1" for the Brimstone it creates.
So 2x 11 Blues + a ML2 Disc Herald cost 3pts less than 2x 11 Pinks, has 6 Total WC (compared to 4 total of the pinks), you still get 2 rolls on Malefic like you would before, yet get so many more wounds.
Blue horrors are pretty good for warp charge spam. Two CADs full of units of 11 and four ML1 heralds gives you TWENTY EIGHT warp charges for 840 points.
The warp charge can't be easily removed either, as damaged blues will spawn brimstones, so they effectively stay at WC2 per unit even if you kill the bonus horror.
It certainly feels like GW broke 40k. I think these guys have made daemon factory lists everything people worried they'd be. If these guys summon in another four units of pinks turn one (which is VERY easily achievable, particularly with the paradox or other summoning buffs) then you're going to get an unending tide of daemons that no army has the firepower to put down, let alone suboptimal ones. Even CC heavy armies will struggle with proper bubble wrapping and layering.
The scary thing is that this isn't even half of an 1850pt list...
Meh, I only see that as maaaybe being a problem in competitive play, just setting up all those horros is going to get tedious real fast. And all they do is not die easily. It's a far cray from a wraith knight. plus not that many people are going to fork out the cash and time to build and paint all those horrors lol
Yeah, true. I don't like the idea that the only thing stopping a build is buying models though. Some guy's going to exploit it. It's pay to win, and I agree it'd be extremely boring/frustrating to play against.
I know they won't do much offensively, but defensive power is still power. Who cares about five wraithknights if all they can do is stomp 5 blue/brimstone horror units to death and you're spawning ten a turn? They're not useless in damage output though. With all those change rolls, some will get D shots, and volume flickering fire will do work.
JNAProductions wrote: Pink Horror has one wound, with a 5+ save, at T3. Assuming BS4, that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 2.25 past the 3+ to wound, and 3.375 with BS4 hitting.
Each Blue and Brimstone Horror is mostly the same, except at T2/1, so they get wounded on a 2+. So that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 1.8 with the 2+ to wound, and 2.7 with BS4 hitting. Times 4, because there are two blue and two brimstone horrors.
So sorry-I did the math initially mentally. It's actually 14.175 Bolter shots to take them down.
A Necron Warrior (at 4 PPM more) is one wound, with a 4+ Reanimate for 2, 4+ save for 4, wounding on 4s for 8, and hitting on 3s for 12.
For Pinks:
2/3 chance to hit
2/3 chance to wound
1/3 chance to fail save (due to re-roll of a one)
So we have a 4/27 chance to wound or just under 7 bolter shots needed.
For Blues:
2/3 chance to hit
5/6 chance to wound
1/3 chance to fail save
So we have 10/54 or just over 5 bolters needed.
For brimstone:
Same as blue.
Necron warrior:
2/3 chance to hit
1/2 chance to wound
1/2 chance to fail save
1/2 chance to fail reanimation
So we have 1/12 or 12 bolters needed
So yeah 17 (oh yes, two blue horrors are created) 27 vs 12 they might be a bit OP
(Also sorry for being such a mathlawyer, but I love maths! )
I don't know how you got a 1/3 chance for them fail their save. Rerolling ones does not upgrade a 5+save to a 3+ save.
The chance of them succeeding there save is the chance that they originally save it + the chance of a reroll multiplied by the chance of success for that reroll.
So 1/3+1/6*1/3 = 7/18 an absolutely marginal increase from there original 6/18. That is a 11/18 chance to fail.
coblen wrote: I don't know how you got a 1/3 chance for them fail their save. Rerolling ones does not upgrade a 5+save to a 3+ save.
The chance of them succeeding there save is the chance that they originally save it + the chance of a reroll multiplied by the chance of success for that reroll.
So 1/3+1/6*1/3 = 7/18 an absolutely marginal increase from there original 6/18. That is a 11/18 chance to fail.
Sorry I multiplied my fractions rather than added, got to remember my probability trees.
The damage comparison to the necron warrior also doesn't take into account shots that are lost to overkill, which can happen three times against the horrors, and only once against the warriors, so they'll actually be even tougher than raw maths predicts (against shooting anyway).
So anyone have any idea how to use Horrors offensively? Assuming Blues and Brims cannot access Malefic, that leaves Change, which has some good options in Curse of the Wulfen
Do we spam horrors looking for certain spells, or do we just sit on objectives as WC batteries?
Seems like another advantage of fielding Blues over Pinks is that you get to roll more spells.
At that point, you just ignore them or go after them with a CC unit. If they can't summon, they are much less of a threat. Now if they roll Boon of Flame or Prismatic gaze, they might need to be addressed.
Speaking of, what do you think of Boon of Flame? It is worth summoning the E-Flamer? or do you choose the higher WC mode to summon 3 Screamers?
It is worth it to get a Chariot on the off change I want to summon it?
Anyway now that I've screwed up posting in the wrong place, I might as well add my 2c to the Horror discussion.
Given that Split models that can't deploy are destroyed and don't cause more models to Spawn, the new Locus might not be as good as first thought. You're going to have trouble fitting those extra models in range if you're getting 4 Blues for every Pink, and all your opponent needs to do it shoot your unit until there's only a handful of Pink left to watch you waste Blue Horrors Splits. The age-old 11 Pinks per unit probably isn't going to change because of this. You want your opponent to either Overkill you or only kill a couple, anywhere in between could see you wasting Splits.
Given that Blue split into a single base however, it's going to be near impossible to run out of room. In that instance it might be worth getting a larger squad to maximise the number of Warp Charges you can generate.
In terms of Objective sitting mana batteries or using them as casters... I'd say it depends each game. As you said Galef, if you roll a good power from Change (like Gaze) you're going to want to use it, unless your opponent is running a horde army with no good targets for it. Boon of Flame is great too, however I don't think I'd ever summon an Exalted Flamer with it, if only because they lack Relentless and so can't do much at all on the turn you summon.
JNAProductions wrote: Pink Horror has one wound, with a 5+ save, at T3. Assuming BS4, that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 2.25 past the 3+ to wound, and 3.375 with BS4 hitting.
Each Blue and Brimstone Horror is mostly the same, except at T2/1, so they get wounded on a 2+. So that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 1.8 with the 2+ to wound, and 2.7 with BS4 hitting. Times 4, because there are two blue and two brimstone horrors.
So sorry-I did the math initially mentally. It's actually 14.175 Bolter shots to take them down.
A Necron Warrior (at 4 PPM more) is one wound, with a 4+ Reanimate for 2, 4+ save for 4, wounding on 4s for 8, and hitting on 3s for 12.
All you have shown is that horrors are hard to get rid of.
Being hard to get rid of does not brake a unit, being both hard to get rid of AND doing something meaningful does.
The warrior in your example, packs a "bolter" that can glance or wound anything on a 6, the horrors? do not. they generate a warp dice, and can hardly do anything meaningful with it themselves.
They are a battery charger for another unit. though to kill battery, but as long you can get rid of whatever it is they are powering up, the horrors turn rather less meaningful.
Galef wrote: So anyone have any idea how to use Horrors offensively?
Assuming Blues and Brims cannot access Malefic, that leaves Change, which has some good options in Curse of the Wulfen
Do we spam horrors looking for certain spells, or do we just sit on objectives as WC batteries?
Seems like another advantage of fielding Blues over Pinks is that you get to roll more spells.
Situationally, I can see a unit of pinks tarpitting an Imperial/Chaos Knight. Any spawnage, you place them around the fight like an onion peel (outside of stomps as much as you can).
JNAProductions wrote: Pink Horror has one wound, with a 5+ save, at T3. Assuming BS4, that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 2.25 past the 3+ to wound, and 3.375 with BS4 hitting.
Each Blue and Brimstone Horror is mostly the same, except at T2/1, so they get wounded on a 2+. So that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 1.8 with the 2+ to wound, and 2.7 with BS4 hitting. Times 4, because there are two blue and two brimstone horrors.
So sorry-I did the math initially mentally. It's actually 14.175 Bolter shots to take them down.
A Necron Warrior (at 4 PPM more) is one wound, with a 4+ Reanimate for 2, 4+ save for 4, wounding on 4s for 8, and hitting on 3s for 12.
All you have shown is that horrors are hard to get rid of.
Being hard to get rid of does not brake a unit, being both hard to get rid of AND doing something meaningful does.
The warrior in your example, packs a "bolter" that can glance or wound anything on a 6, the horrors? do not. they generate a warp dice, and can hardly do anything meaningful with it themselves.
They are a battery charger for another unit. though to kill battery, but as long you can get rid of whatever it is they are powering up, the horrors turn rather less meaningful.
They're guaranteed Flickering Fire, pack extra Warp Charges for your other, more important psykers to use, and are nigh-impossible to get off an objective without assaulting them.
Oh, and one of their Change powers they might get? Is Strength D.
JNAProductions wrote: Pink Horror has one wound, with a 5+ save, at T3. Assuming BS4, that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 2.25 past the 3+ to wound, and 3.375 with BS4 hitting.
Each Blue and Brimstone Horror is mostly the same, except at T2/1, so they get wounded on a 2+. So that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 1.8 with the 2+ to wound, and 2.7 with BS4 hitting. Times 4, because there are two blue and two brimstone horrors.
So sorry-I did the math initially mentally. It's actually 14.175 Bolter shots to take them down.
A Necron Warrior (at 4 PPM more) is one wound, with a 4+ Reanimate for 2, 4+ save for 4, wounding on 4s for 8, and hitting on 3s for 12.
All you have shown is that horrors are hard to get rid of.
Being hard to get rid of does not brake a unit, being both hard to get rid of AND doing something meaningful does.
The warrior in your example, packs a "bolter" that can glance or wound anything on a 6, the horrors? do not. they generate a warp dice, and can hardly do anything meaningful with it themselves.
They are a battery charger for another unit. though to kill battery, but as long you can get rid of whatever it is they are powering up, the horrors turn rather less meaningful.
They're guaranteed Flickering Fire, pack extra Warp Charges for your other, more important psykers to use, and are nigh-impossible to get off an objective without assaulting them.
Oh, and one of their Change powers they might get? Is Strength D.
They're only BS3 and using them for witch fires cancels out the waprcharges they were making because shooting witchfires is very WC inefficient.
Also the Horrors should never use the Str D power. Between the 50% miss rate of BS3, 1/6 chance of rolling a 1 for damage, and ~20% of failing to manifest the power, you have a very low chance of doing any damage at all (and you wasted 7WCs)
Point is, they aren't useless. Just because other things are MORE USEFUL doesn't invalidate that. (And they help out the more useful people just by existing.)
Nothing Says Blue Horrors cannot Use Daemonology? (GW Said Pink Cannot)
So Could you Field Units of Pink Horrors To Intentionally Cap Objectives and play Mind Games on the Opponent (Let me Cap the Objectives OR get a Bajillion More Pink Horrors in your face, Your Choice) and use it to distract them while something bjg and Scary Runs up the Board...
commander dante wrote: Nothing Says Blue Horrors cannot Use Daemonology? (GW Said Pink Cannot)
So Could you Field Units of Pink Horrors To Intentionally Cap Objectives and play Mind Games on the Opponent (Let me Cap the Objectives OR get a Bajillion More Pink Horrors in your face, Your Choice) and use it to distract them while something bjg and Scary Runs up the Board...
They didn't mention blue horrors or brimstone in their FAQ on the use of malefic, however I am sure RAI they won't get it either and if people start using malefic with blues there may be abother FAQ.
adamsouza wrote: They are going to cost a ton of actual money for a suboptimal unit.
Fingers crossed for the Tzeentch Getting started box that includes Pink, Blue, and Brimstone horrors.
They're going to cost a lot to field, yes, but sub optimal they are not.
Are they game breaking? Not to my mind. Don't get me wrong, I think they're great but I don't think you'll see top tables filled with Pink Horror spam. It's just too clumsy to work in a timed environment.
They're excellent in the sense that they made a mid to high tier army better but I think you'll see the same two to three units of 11 Horrors in the top Daemons lists as they handily solve the problem of board presence in an army whose best builds consist of 1 to 2 large death stars or FMC spam
koooaei wrote: I've calculated that horrors are ~7.5 times more durable than Magnus vs bolters point to point.
Wait. are you saying that 72 Pink Horrors (~650pts) takes 7x the amount of bolter fire to kill than Magnus?
Which is basically saying that 10 Pink Horrors = Magnus in terms of durability.
Bolters firing at Magnus:
1/6 to wound, 1/2 re-rolling ones - 5/12 to get past the save, 7 wounds ~ 100.8 bolter hits required to kill Magnus.
Bolters firing at pink horrors:
2/3 to wound, 1/3 re-rolling ones - 11/18 to get past the save - 2.(45) bolter hits to kill a horror.
Than it spawns 2 lesser horrors, 5/6 to wound, 11/18 to get past the save - 3.92(72) bolter hits to kill 2 lesser horrors.
Than they spawn 1 even lesser horror each - 5/6 to wound, 11/18 to get past the save - 3.92(72) bolter hits to kill 2 even lesser horrors.
Resulting in 10.3(09) bolter hits to kill one horror and everything he spawns - btw, that's 4.2 times more durable than non-splitting horrors.
Magnus costs as much as 72.(2) horrors.
You need 744.(54) bolter hits to kill this many horrors.
Horrors are almost 7.5 times tougher than Magnus vs bolter hits.
Take note that this calculations take Pink horrors in the open and a non-flying Magnus with just 4++ re-rolling 1-s. So, for example, if Magnus is flying - he'll be harder to hit and if you're firing with regular marines w/o skyfire, he's becoming 4 times more durable than non-flying, resulting in him being only ~1.9 times less durable than Horrors. Also, if you buff him to 3++ re-rolling ones, he becomes 1/3 more resilient than with 4++ re-rolling 1-s ending up as, i think, 5.25 times more vulnerable to bolters than horrors - instead of 7.5. On the other hand, if horrors go t oground in a ruin, they become ~2.62 times more resilient than just standing in the open.
Another thing is that Horrors are like 50 times more resilient to poison and sniper and around 150 times more resilient to grav than Magnus. But i doubt anyone sane would shoot this weapons at horrors anywayz.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It'd be interesting how much more they cost $ wise lol.
Yes, horrors are practically immune to bolter fire. we got that fact covered already. though, you assume you actually need to kill all horrors, and ignore the fact many would perish to random instability between shooting rounds.
Magnus however, will ALWAYS be airborne with a 3++rr1, because he can self-bless (in fact, he WILL self bless, siphon is priceless on him) so he's rather uncaring of bolter fire as well.
The way to kill horrors was also covered, assault them with anyhting that has a decent number of attacks. the instability would take it's toll, etc.
And, naturally, you can simply ignore them and go after whatever it is they are juicing up.
Horrors are literally immune to all ranged fire. Instability only works in melee. And a lot of things are shooty-oriented now. Also, Magnus is good in melee, i see no reason to not try and use it. sure, flying can always be an option - especially if you're facing d-weapons. Fly up - d them down - land and finish the job. He has an impressive melee profile that he pays for.
Whereas Horrors cannot effectively do damage like Magnus. Sure the Horrors could roll a decent Change power, but if you are bringing them as objective holding WC batteries, than A) they won't be close enough to use said power and B) even if they are close, you'll probably want to use their WC for your other Psykers.
A fair trade for sure, but hardly meta-breaking, especially since you'll have to get the models (which do not currently exist in a relevant capacity).
I don't think they'd instantly pop in melee. Especially, taking into consideration that they still get to split even before instability.
If you don't want the opponent to get to your backlines, just roll your horrors forward. He than kills the squad in melee - if it's a strong melee unit they're facing, most of them will die and spawn up to twice their numbers of blue horrors. That would just go forward and bauble wrap the enemy unit next turn. Forcing either shots or next melee phase to clear them out. Which in turn would spawn another swarm of brimstones.
That's 3 phases (at best) to clear out a single unit.
If the enemy decides to shoot them, there's a possibility to create a roadblock to roadblock in front that'd make assault them even harder - depending on the number of casualties. If the opponent isn't careful enough, you could generate extra warp charges and psy powers with extra squads.
JNAProductions wrote: Pink Horror has one wound, with a 5+ save, at T3. Assuming BS4, that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 2.25 past the 3+ to wound, and 3.375 with BS4 hitting.
Each Blue and Brimstone Horror is mostly the same, except at T2/1, so they get wounded on a 2+. So that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 1.8 with the 2+ to wound, and 2.7 with BS4 hitting. Times 4, because there are two blue and two brimstone horrors.
So sorry-I did the math initially mentally. It's actually 14.175 Bolter shots to take them down.
A Necron Warrior (at 4 PPM more) is one wound, with a 4+ Reanimate for 2, 4+ save for 4, wounding on 4s for 8, and hitting on 3s for 12.
All you have shown is that horrors are hard to get rid of.
Being hard to get rid of does not brake a unit, being both hard to get rid of AND doing something meaningful does.
The warrior in your example, packs a "bolter" that can glance or wound anything on a 6, the horrors? do not. they generate a warp dice, and can hardly do anything meaningful with it themselves.
They are a battery charger for another unit. though to kill battery, but as long you can get rid of whatever it is they are powering up, the horrors turn rather less meaningful.
Flickering fire? Bolt of change? Summon Chariots? IDK...doesn't sound like they do nothing.
koooaei wrote: I don't think they'd instantly pop in melee. Especially, taking into consideration that they still get to split even before instability.
Splits happen at the end of the phase, Instability happens prior to that. As the Split rule does not tell us to keep counters or keep track of how many Blues are "waiting" to be created (merely the number that may be created at the end of the phase), than the only logically solution it that if the Pinks are removed due to Instability, then at the end of the phase, no Blues are created.
For example: 10 Pinks get charged by some Assault Marines. The Marines kill 6 Horrors. The remaining horrors kill 1 Marine. Horrors lose combat by 5 and roll an 8 on their Instability. The remaining 4 Horrors are removed BEFORE the end of the phase. No models are split at all. Any Blues that might have been split from the 6 Pinks that were killed by the Marines are lost because there is no longer a Pink Horror to measure to as the entire unit was removed from Instability (the 1 exception to allowing them to be place before the last model is removed).
koooaei wrote: I don't think they'd instantly pop in melee. Especially, taking into consideration that they still get to split even before instability.
Splits happen at the end of the phase, Instability happens prior to that. As the Split rule does not tell us to keep counters or keep track of how many Blues are "waiting" to be created (merely the number that may be created at the end of the phase), than the only logically solution it that if the Pinks are removed due to Instability, then at the end of the phase, no Blues are created.
For example: 10 Pinks get charged by some Assault Marines. The Marines kill 6 Horrors. The remaining horrors kill 1 Marine. Horrors lose combat by 5 and roll an 8 on their Instability. The remaining 4 Horrors are removed BEFORE the end of the phase. No models are split at all. Any Blues that might have been split from the 6 Pinks that were killed by the Marines are lost because there is no longer a Pink Horror to measure to as the entire unit was removed from Instability (the 1 exception to allowing them to be place before the last model is removed).
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You're right in that the wording states that models Split at the end of the phase. That would put paid to the idea posted earlier of shooting the Pink with one unit, then the Blues with the next and so on and so forth.
What would actually happen is you wipe out the Pinks. Then you shoot all the rest of your guns. Then the monster blob of Blues materialises at the end of the shooting phase.
So, the only way to get rid of a unit of Horrors in a turn is to somehow Tank Shock them in the moving phase (not sure it's even possible to wipe out a unit form Tank Shock though), shoot the Blues in the shooting phase and then assault the Brimstones.
Edit: Doh! Forgot the psychic phase.
Eldritch Storm the Pinks, Scatbike the Blues and then chop up the Brimstones with Scorpions.
Another punch in the groin to the Dark Eldar. Not only do their basic guns not ID Brimstones, but they don't have a psychic phase so there's no way to eliminate a squad of Horrors in one turn!
Well there are several things happening here, and exceptions that need to be addressed. New Horrors are not made until the end of the phase, EXCPEPT when something wiped them out, then they are made immediately, EXCEPT when they are wiped by Instability
So any Blue Horrors that are "waiting" to be created from casualties in CC will miss their chance since the Pinks were not removed at once by a rule that allows them to be placed before removing the last Pink. They would not be able to be place after the casualties, since there are Pinks remaining, and since the remaining Pinks are then removed from Instability, we lose the ability to place them before removing the last Pink, as that rule only applies to non-Instability rules
BoomWolf wrote: Yes, horrors are practically immune to bolter fire. we got that fact covered already. though, you assume you actually need to kill all horrors, and ignore the fact many would perish to random instability between shooting rounds.
Magnus however, will ALWAYS be airborne with a 3++rr1, because he can self-bless (in fact, he WILL self bless, siphon is priceless on him) so he's rather uncaring of bolter fire as well.
The way to kill horrors was also covered, assault them with anyhting that has a decent number of attacks. the instability would take it's toll, etc.
And, naturally, you can simply ignore them and go after whatever it is they are juicing up.
You do realize you need to take a big ol' formation to get that 3++, right? You can't just slap Magnus in a CAD and call it a day.
You can't just slap Magnus in a CAD and call it a day, but you can make that CAD a Thousand Sons CAD and then call it day.
He comes with a 4++ and knows blessings, cast one of those on him and he has a 3++.
Captyn_Bob wrote: The formations improve his casting ability/toughness
Which formation improves his toughness?
I think he mean how tough he becomes to suffer a wound (i.e. an improved ++ save) rather than actually improving his T characteristic.
And no formation improves his casting ability, he does that himself. He improves the casting of DPs in one of the formations though
So no new blue or brimstone horrors are created if the host die from instability??
Anyways if you play against a player who brings mass Horrors, just ignore them, they are only good for obj holding and generate warp charges.
If a player decides to bring 6+ units of pinks and think they can be competitive in ITC or NOVA, they are wrong.
In ITC Mission 3, they will be at a huge disadvantage due to large amount of potential KPs the horrors will create. 6 units of Pinks is equivalent to at least 18 potential KPs for the opponent. And they are easy tertiary KPs in NOVA.
In Obj missions, if a player decides to deep strike a unit of pink some where to hold a OBJ, all you need to do is kill all the pinks, the blue and brimstone horrors are not Objsec. So a unit of obsec tactical marine can hold that objective indefinitely and just be lock in combat with them. And horrors can't hurt rhinos unless they want to waste WC to cast spells, BS3 doesn't help them either. In NOVA mission 4, units not part of the original detachment does not count towards scoring. So once you kill most of the original pink horrors, its kinda game over.
SonsofVulkan wrote: So no new blue or brimstone horrors are created if the host die from instability??
Anyways if you play against a player who brings mass Horrors, just ignore them, they are only good for obj holding and generate warp charges.
If a player decides to bring 6+ units of pinks and think they can be competitive in ITC or NOVA, they are wrong.
In ITC Mission 3, they will be at a huge disadvantage due to large amount of potential KPs the horrors will create. 6 units of Pinks is equivalent to at least 18 potential KPs for the opponent. And they are easy tertiary KPs in NOVA.
In Obj missions, if a player decides to deep strike a unit of pink some where to hold a OBJ, all you need to do is kill all the pinks, the blue and brimstone horrors are not Objsec. So a unit of obsec tactical marine can hold that objective indefinitely and just be lock in combat with them. And horrors can't hurt rhinos unless they want to waste WC to cast spells, BS3 doesn't help them either. In NOVA mission 4, units not part of the original detachment does not count towards scoring. So once you kill most of the original pink horrors, its kinda game over.
SonsofVulkan wrote: So no new blue or brimstone horrors are created if the host die from instability??
I don't understand how people are reading it that way. It says if they are removed from play via instability they don't split not that previous killed horrors in that phase don't split.
SonsofVulkan wrote: So no new blue or brimstone horrors are created if the host die from instability??
I don't understand how people are reading it that way. It says if they are removed from play via instability they don't split not that previous killed horrors in that phase don't split.
The horrors killed earlier in the phase now aren't there to measure the 6" required to place new horrors
SonsofVulkan wrote: So no new blue or brimstone horrors are created if the host die from instability??
Anyways if you play against a player who brings mass Horrors, just ignore them, they are only good for obj holding and generate warp charges.
If a player decides to bring 6+ units of pinks and think they can be competitive in ITC or NOVA, they are wrong.
In ITC Mission 3, they will be at a huge disadvantage due to large amount of potential KPs the horrors will create. 6 units of Pinks is equivalent to at least 18 potential KPs for the opponent. And they are easy tertiary KPs in NOVA.
In Obj missions, if a player decides to deep strike a unit of pink some where to hold a OBJ, all you need to do is kill all the pinks, the blue and brimstone horrors are not Objsec. So a unit of obsec tactical marine can hold that objective indefinitely and just be lock in combat with them. And horrors can't hurt rhinos unless they want to waste WC to cast spells, BS3 doesn't help them either. In NOVA mission 4, units not part of the original detachment does not count towards scoring. So once you kill most of the original pink horrors, its kinda game over.
I think you are in for a RUDE awakening.
Pink Horrors got better no doubt, but marked my words you will not see more than 3-4 units of them in any tournament winning Daemon list.
SonsofVulkan wrote: So no new blue or brimstone horrors are created if the host die from instability??
Anyways if you play against a player who brings mass Horrors, just ignore them, they are only good for obj holding and generate warp charges.
If a player decides to bring 6+ units of pinks and think they can be competitive in ITC or NOVA, they are wrong.
In ITC Mission 3, they will be at a huge disadvantage due to large amount of potential KPs the horrors will create. 6 units of Pinks is equivalent to at least 18 potential KPs for the opponent. And they are easy tertiary KPs in NOVA.
In Obj missions, if a player decides to deep strike a unit of pink some where to hold a OBJ, all you need to do is kill all the pinks, the blue and brimstone horrors are not Objsec. So a unit of obsec tactical marine can hold that objective indefinitely and just be lock in combat with them. And horrors can't hurt rhinos unless they want to waste WC to cast spells, BS3 doesn't help them either. In NOVA mission 4, units not part of the original detachment does not count towards scoring. So once you kill most of the original pink horrors, its kinda game over.
I think you are in for a RUDE awakening.
Pink Horrors got better no doubt, but marked my words you will not see more than 3-4 units of them in any tournament winning Daemon list.
Oh I agree with that - 3 or 4 is all you need. AS ether part of a warpflame host or a daemon CAD. Anything more would be a waste of points.
Double ones no horrors died so no split. As all casultys taken in that phase return.
double 6 they all die to instability so still no split, if im reading it right.
One horrible thing i thought of and not 100% sure its legal.
A fair few Tzeetch powers are beams . Unless i'm missing something can you not pick a point i dunno though your own unit of horrors (or strategic parts of the unit) for complete shenigans... creating new units for next turn WC, footprint, general tomfoolery. Heck even do this on a unit you just summoned.
You can do it if you really need to. One of the best thing about split though is that it happens at the end of the phase so your opponant can't kill the unit they just created, we lose that if we cause the split.
Saying that there are situation where you might want to do this: your opponant is agnoring your horrors, you need to throw a unit on an object that is 6-9" away, you need to block a route, etc.
Latro_ wrote: One horrible thing i thought of and not 100% sure its legal.
A fair few Tzeetch powers are beams . Unless i'm missing something can you not pick a point i dunno though your own unit of horrors (or strategic parts of the unit) for complete shenigans... creating new units for next turn WC, footprint, general tomfoolery. Heck even do this on a unit you just summoned.
beam powers don't just target a point on the table. They still need to target an enemy unit you just are also allowed to draw the beam through friendly units
Latro_ wrote: One horrible thing i thought of and not 100% sure its legal.
A fair few Tzeetch powers are beams . Unless i'm missing something can you not pick a point i dunno though your own unit of horrors (or strategic parts of the unit) for complete shenigans... creating new units for next turn WC, footprint, general tomfoolery. Heck even do this on a unit you just summoned.
beam powers don't just target a point on the table. They still need to target an enemy unit you just are also allowed to draw the beam through friendly units
see i'm trying to find a rule that proves that you can't...? everything i read points to exactly the ability to do that. The beam entry says nothing about targeting a unit and the witchfire entry specifically mentions targeting a point on the table.
"...a psyker must be able to see the target unit (or target point)...''
'..target a point within the power's range...'
40kFAQ:
'Q: A beam attack does not target a unit – can you still Jink?
A: No.'
Well, if you split in you movement phase, you only need one blue and/or brimstone horror to gain an extra WC for the following psychic phase. That's worth sacrificing one pink to, seeing as that makes 2 blues which are free and you can then sac one of those for a the brimstone. Of course that's easier said than done.
Roknar wrote: Well, if you split in you movement phase, you only need one blue and/or brimstone horror to gain an extra WC for the following psychic phase. That's worth sacrificing one pink to, seeing as that makes 2 blues which are free and you can then sac one of those for a the brimstone. Of course that's easier said than done.
look a blown up rhino, quick walk over it!
XD
Or jump the horrors out of a LR and somehow ram something for an explosion? like hitting flint together to create a spark or fire? see its dead fluffy!
Then the big daddy, death claw drop pod coming in and heat blasting horrors for silliness.
Love how we're debating buying GW models so we can destroy them OURSELVES to use more GW models, well played GW well played
Love how we're debating buying GW models so we can destroy them OURSELVES to use more GW models, well played GW well played
I did notice that the 'designers note' for Brimstone Horrors on the pictures earlier in this thread says 'each Brimstone Horror consists of a pair of Horrors that share a base'.
So, for the common unit of 11 Pink Horrors, you need the original 11 Pinks, 22 Blues for when they Split and 44 individual Brimstone models for when they Split Again.
That's a suggested 77 models just for a single base squad!
To put it another way, that's £144 per squad in your army!
Love how we're debating buying GW models so we can destroy them OURSELVES to use more GW models, well played GW well played
I did notice that the 'designers note' for Brimstone Horrors on the pictures earlier in this thread says 'each Brimstone Horror consists of a pair of Horrors that share a base'.
So, for the common unit of 11 Pink Horrors, you need the original 11 Pinks, 22 Blues for when they Split and 44 individual Brimstone models for when they Split Again.
That's a suggested 77 models just for a single base squad!
To put it another way, that's £144 per squad in your army!
Nice try GW. Nice try...
Blue horrors make a single base of a brimstone horror pair. So its 11 pink to 22 blue to 22 brimstone bases
Honestly, for brimstones, does anyone have any fire from GW models available? You can take some leftover flames from the burning chariot and make brimstones from it. They can't FORCE your brimstones to have faces, and you'll be using all GW parts. Laugh at anyone trying to tell you otherwise.
timetowaste85 wrote: Honestly, for brimstones, does anyone have any fire from GW models available? You can take some leftover flames from the burning chariot and make brimstones from it. They can't FORCE your brimstones to have faces, and you'll be using all GW parts. Laugh at anyone trying to tell you otherwise.
They can force you to to have faces, because people can just refuse to play you and your "scenic bases with no actual figure on it". Nothing about being made from a GW part gives you a free pass.
timetowaste85 wrote: Honestly, for brimstones, does anyone have any fire from GW models available? You can take some leftover flames from the burning chariot and make brimstones from it. They can't FORCE your brimstones to have faces, and you'll be using all GW parts. Laugh at anyone trying to tell you otherwise.
Love how we're debating buying GW models so we can destroy them OURSELVES to use more GW models, well played GW well played
I did notice that the 'designers note' for Brimstone Horrors on the pictures earlier in this thread says 'each Brimstone Horror consists of a pair of Horrors that share a base'.
So, for the common unit of 11 Pink Horrors, you need the original 11 Pinks, 22 Blues for when they Split and 44 individual Brimstone models for when they Split Again.
That's a suggested 77 models just for a single base squad!
To put it another way, that's £144 per squad in your army!
Nice try GW. Nice try...
Blue horrors make a single base of a brimstone horror pair. So its 11 pink to 22 blue to 22 brimstone bases
True it's 22 Brimstone bases. However, according to GW's suggested modelling idea each 'Brimstone Horror' consists of one big base with two Horror models glued to it.
Hence, 44 Horror models to represent the 22 Brimstone bases.
Read the 'Designers Note' on the far left of this picture (once it's been rotated the right way up):
Love how we're debating buying GW models so we can destroy them OURSELVES to use more GW models, well played GW well played
I did notice that the 'designers note' for Brimstone Horrors on the pictures earlier in this thread says 'each Brimstone Horror consists of a pair of Horrors that share a base'.
So, for the common unit of 11 Pink Horrors, you need the original 11 Pinks, 22 Blues for when they Split and 44 individual Brimstone models for when they Split Again.
That's a suggested 77 models just for a single base squad!
To put it another way, that's £144 per squad in your army!
Nice try GW. Nice try...
Blue horrors make a single base of a brimstone horror pair. So its 11 pink to 22 blue to 22 brimstone bases
True it's 22 Brimstone bases. However, according to GW's suggested modelling idea each 'Brimstone Horror' consists of one big base with two Horror models glued to it.
Hence, 44 Horror models to represent the 22 Brimstone bases.
Read the 'Designers Note' on the far left of this picture (once it's been rotated the right way up):
It's rather arbitrary to point out that that its 44 "models" when the official model isn't even two seperate models
Love how we're debating buying GW models so we can destroy them OURSELVES to use more GW models, well played GW well played
I did notice that the 'designers note' for Brimstone Horrors on the pictures earlier in this thread says 'each Brimstone Horror consists of a pair of Horrors that share a base'.
So, for the common unit of 11 Pink Horrors, you need the original 11 Pinks, 22 Blues for when they Split and 44 individual Brimstone models for when they Split Again.
That's a suggested 77 models just for a single base squad!
To put it another way, that's £144 per squad in your army!
Nice try GW. Nice try...
Blue horrors make a single base of a brimstone horror pair. So its 11 pink to 22 blue to 22 brimstone bases
True it's 22 Brimstone bases. However, according to GW's suggested modelling idea each 'Brimstone Horror' consists of one big base with two Horror models glued to it.
Hence, 44 Horror models to represent the 22 Brimstone bases.
Read the 'Designers Note' on the far left of this picture (once it's been rotated the right way up):
It's rather arbitrary to point out that that its 44 "models" when the official model isn't even two seperate models
Ah, my mistake. I didn't realise there was already an existing model for Brimstone Horrors.
I thought they were suggesting that until there's an official model, you should buy two boxes of Horrors, glue on 2 per base and end up with 10 Brimstones!
I just had a thought. How does the Split rule affect the viability of the PortalGlyph? Back in 6th ed, the PG was a go-to item for getting free troops and in early 7th it was used to spawn more WC. But recently it has all but vanished from army lists With the Split rule, you could create D6 Pinks for the additional WC that the enemy will have to dedicate disproportionate resourced at removing since they would then create Blues and Brimstones
Or would the 30pts for the Exalted reward be better spent on a unit of Brimstones and skip the PG step entirely?
Galef wrote: I just had a thought. How does the Split rule affect the viability of the PortalGlyph?
Back in 6th ed, the PG was a go-to item for getting free troops and in early 7th it was used to spawn more WC. But recently it has all but vanished from army lists
With the Split rule, you could create D6 Pinks for the additional WC that the enemy will have to dedicate disproportionate resourced at removing since they would then create Blues and Brimstones
Or would the 30pts for the Exalted reward be better spent on a unit of Brimstones and skip the PG step entirely?
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That's... actually a good point. If I already have the grimore, I'd rather take the PG than some other rewards.
Galef wrote: I just had a thought. How does the Split rule affect the viability of the PortalGlyph?
Back in 6th ed, the PG was a go-to item for getting free troops and in early 7th it was used to spawn more WC. But recently it has all but vanished from army lists
With the Split rule, you could create D6 Pinks for the additional WC that the enemy will have to dedicate disproportionate resourced at removing since they would then create Blues and Brimstones
Or would the 30pts for the Exalted reward be better spent on a unit of Brimstones and skip the PG step entirely?
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That's... actually a good point. If I already have the grimore, I'd rather take the PG than some other rewards.
It also makes Aetaos'rau'keres' ability to generate extra Pink Horrors a bit less of an afterthought than it was. Pity you still can't use him in games under 4,000pts.
Thought of another tactic: Horror bubble wrap for enemy Deathstars
Basically you intentionally move a unit of Pinks in the way of an advancing Deathstar, forming a line about 6-12" away from the Deathstar, with no other units as close. Most Deathstars will not be able to move around/over them and will therefore want to charge. Most stars will also have the ability to wipe the unit on the charge (thus skipping the Instability check) and 20+ Blues appear as soon as the unit is wiped. Place these as close to the star and as wide as you can, so that it limits them from spreading out with a consolidate move. In your turn, move and run to create a complete circle around the star. Now the star cannot move further and will have to charge the Blues, potentially seeing a repeat of what just happened, although with more models it is more likely a few Blues survive to take an Instability check, but who cares? You just tied up a Deathstar with like 90pts for 2 turns
Even if the Star doesn't assault the Blues and your opponent just shoots them instead, you have made the star useless for a turn.
Galef wrote: Thought of another tactic:
Horror bubble wrap for enemy Deathstars
Basically you intentionally move a unit of Pinks in the way of an advancing Deathstar, forming a line about 6-12" away from the Deathstar, with no other units as close.
Most Deathstars will not be able to move around/over them and will therefore want to charge. Most stars will also have the ability to wipe the unit on the charge (thus skipping the Instability check) and 20+ Blues appear as soon as the unit is wiped. Place these as close to the star and as wide as you can, so that it limits them from spreading out with a consolidate move. In your turn, move and run to create a complete circle around the star.
Now the star cannot move further and will have to charge the Blues, potentially seeing a repeat of what just happened, although with more models it is more likely a few Blues survive to take an Instability check, but who cares? You just tied up a Deathstar with like 90pts for 2 turns
Even if the Star doesn't assault the Blues and your opponent just shoots them instead, you have made the star useless for a turn.
"Basically you intentionally move a unit of Pinks in the way of an advancing Deathstar, forming a line about 6-12" away from the Deathstar, with no other units as close.
Most Deathstars will not be able to move around/over them and will therefore want to charge. Most stars will also have the ability to wipe the unit on the charge (thus skipping the Instability check) and 20+ Blues appear as soon as the unit is wiped. Place these as close to the star and as wide as you can, so that it limits them from spreading out with a consolidate move. In your turn, move and....."
.... put the grimoire on the blue horrors then beam a pink horror unit with the "double split" icon herald and lets say kill 7 pink horrors and at the end of the phase attach 28 (4x7) blue horrors to the primary blue horror unit. Then cast cursed earth and summon sun extra horrors and your blue horror blob with 2+ inv save can take that deathstar and keep it their forever. you just move 'split icon herald' to another unit of pink horrors and beam them again. even think 'hit and run' would be hard, because it's not easy getting out of close combat with 45+ horrors.
Galef wrote: Thought of another tactic:
Horror bubble wrap for enemy Deathstars
Basically you intentionally move a unit of Pinks in the way of an advancing Deathstar, forming a line about 6-12" away from the Deathstar, with no other units as close.
Most Deathstars will not be able to move around/over them and will therefore want to charge. Most stars will also have the ability to wipe the unit on the charge (thus skipping the Instability check) and 20+ Blues appear as soon as the unit is wiped. Place these as close to the star and as wide as you can, so that it limits them from spreading out with a consolidate move. In your turn, move and run to create a complete circle around the star.
Now the star cannot move further and will have to charge the Blues, potentially seeing a repeat of what just happened, although with more models it is more likely a few Blues survive to take an Instability check, but who cares? You just tied up a Deathstar with like 90pts for 2 turns
Even if the Star doesn't assault the Blues and your opponent just shoots them instead, you have made the star useless for a turn.
Bonus points: Use them in a Wrath of Magnus list along with some Thousand Sons. Use the astral grimoire on them for 12" move and to assure your encirclement one turn eariler. Also, play them in a panaemoniad to get your 4++ save and use cursed earth to get 3++. Bring your finest tearcup.
Well, you actually don't want them to be tough to kill against a Deathstar. Even buffed up, they will take casualties and lose combat, thereby risking an Instability that might wipe the unit. You essentially want the Deathstar to kill every last Pink so that a new unit of Blues is created that can circle around the Star.
Galef wrote: Well, you actually don't want them to be tough to kill against a Deathstar. Even buffed up, they will take casualties and lose combat, thereby risking an Instability that might wipe the unit. You essentially want the Deathstar to kill every last Pink so that a new unit of Blues is created that can circle around the Star.
Only if you roll double one and even that can be fixed with fateweaver reroll.
