Has to be the AdMech Electropriests, right? Both flavours. T3 dudes with HoW and sticks and little hula hoop hands that fire AP- bolt pistols. What is the point of these dudes?

I know, I know - stick a GK Librarian in a full squad of Stick-Priests, give them Hammerhand and Gate them around so they smash everything with their WS3 S7 I3 ID-Sticks and 2++ saves.

Are these dudes the worst units in the game? If not, what is?

Related - is there some awesome-sauce combo you can do with the Priests that I'm missing? Why would you ever take them?

Vespid are pretty bad.
Mutilators but now might have a use.

Are vespid actually bad, or do they just get overshadowed by the rest of the codex and have ugly models to boot?

Bloodbrides are the worst by far
13 ppm for T3 6+ armor, no useful weapons, and a small gimmick where they get a 4+ invul in melee.
The next closedt contender is Wyches, which are the same but with 1 less attack and Ld, and are 3 ppm cheaper

It's the Tactical squad.
The master of none.

 Bookwrack wrote:
Are vespid actually bad, or do they just get overshadowed by the rest of the codex and have ugly models to boot?

They're worse in every possible way than Crisis suits, which is the reason nobody uses them. As for bad in the abstract the game has grown up around them and they haven't kept up; they're horrendously expensive (18pts/model), one shot each from BS3 models means they take a silly number of Markerlights to make relevant (even if that shot is S5/AP3), they're Jump rather than Jet Pack so with their short range they've got to leave their T4/4+ asses hanging out to do anything, and they've got Ld6 so they run away at the drop of a hat.

I'd like to nominate Ogryn; they're more expensive than a Terminator, they've got awful transports, they take half as much firepower to drop, and they don't have a tenth the damage output.

 wuestenfux wrote:
It's the Tactical squad.
The master of none.

They'll butcher Electropriests all day long though. Even Taccies aren't as bad as these skirt-wearing failures.


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 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd like to nominate Ogryn; they're more expensive than a Terminator, they've got awful transports, they take half as much firepower to drop, and they don't have a tenth the damage output.

I always forget about Ogryns. For obvious reasons.

Even at that I'd still take them ahead of the Electropriests. They can at least take a bit of punishment.

 BBAP wrote:
Has to be the AdMech Electropriests, right? Both flavours. T3 dudes with HoW and sticks and little hula hoop hands that fire AP- bolt pistols. What is the point of these dudes?

I know, I know - stick a GK Librarian in a full squad of Stick-Priests, give them Hammerhand and Gate them around so they smash everything with their WS3 S7 I3 ID-Sticks and 2++ saves.

Are these dudes the worst units in the game? If not, what is?

Related - is there some awesome-sauce combo you can do with the Priests that I'm missing? Why would you ever take them?

Bolt Pistol? 12" Assault 2 Twin linked is bolt pistol? Regardless, they tend to do okay due to the Cult Mechanicus Canticles, wouldn't consider them the worst as a result.

Also they are WS4, they tend to drown things in high attack amounts.

Are the Jazz-Hands TL? I must've missed that, although it's still not great. I assumed bumping up the Canticle count was their only purpose if I'm honest, and their grotesque points cost was to set a soft limit on how much you could get without a WarCon.

Is using your Canticles to power the Jazz-Hands/ Poke-Sticks a good idea if the rest of your army is Kataphrons and Kastelans? Surely that just wastes a Canticle and makes them suck harder?

EDIT: WS4 BS3 for the stick-dudes, the Jazz Hands dudes are WS3 BS4. They're both I3 though; gonna struggle to drown stuff like GSC before they can drown you, I think.

there must be **something** I'm missing here.

 BBAP wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd like to nominate Ogryn; they're more expensive than a Terminator, they've got awful transports, they take half as much firepower to drop, and they don't have a tenth the damage output.

I always forget about Ogryns. For obvious reasons.

Even at that I'd still take them ahead of the Electropriests. They can at least take a bit of punishment.

Pfft. Bet you Electropriests can take more bolters hits point for point than Ogryns can. (Not really, but closer than you'd think. 7.5 bolter hits to kill 40pts of Electropriests (averaging, I know that isn't a whole number of electropriests) versus 9 hits to kill 40pts of Ogryns.)

(Also 2 S5/AP4/ID on a 6 attacks per 18pt model on the Fulgrites makes them hit quite a bit harder too.)

(Electropriests are so expensive because of the potential of MSU-spam on the Canticles more so than raw capability. Also in raw capability they're still superior to Ogryn.)

 BBAP wrote:
Are the Jazz-Hands TL? I must've missed that, although it's still not great. I assumed bumping up the Canticle count was their only purpose if I'm honest, and their grotesque points cost was to set a soft limit on how much you could get without a WarCon.

Is using your Canticles to power the Jazz-Hands/ Poke-Sticks a good idea if the rest of your army is Kataphrons and Kastelans? Surely that just wastes a Canticle and makes them suck harder?

Depends on what you are doing that turn really, I can't really recommend it myself as I don't play the army personally but I've seen someone use them to a decent enough consistency.

I just wouldn't classify them as the worst unit ingame, they aren't exactly bad but I wouldn't call them good either. For note to your edit I've never actually seen GSC used personally, so they may just be straight up terrible against them.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Electropriests are so expensive because of the potential of MSU-spam on the Canticles more so than raw capability.

I thought it was that. I just can't see any other reason for them to cost that much. They're dreadful units.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I just wouldn't classify them as the worst unit ingame, they aren't exactly bad but I wouldn't call them good either. For note to your edit I've never actually seen GSC used personally, so they may just be straight up terrible against them.

It might be that, to be honest - I'm maybe comparing them to stuff from the GSC book, which is a bit unfair.

Does your buddy use the Jazz-Priest formation or is it just individual units?

Anyone care to nominate Flash Gitz? 22ppm, you get zero upgrade options, a 4+ Nob base, with a crappy gun that has to sit still if you even want to hit anything. They don't even synergize with anything or anyone. I'm not sure I've ever seen these guys on the board.

 BBAP wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Electropriests are so expensive because of the potential of MSU-spam on the Canticles more so than raw capability.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I just wouldn't classify them as the worst unit ingame, they aren't exactly bad but I wouldn't call them good either. For note to your edit I've never actually seen GSC used personally, so they may just be straight up terrible against them.

It might be that, to be honest - I'm maybe comparing them to stuff from the GSC book, which is a bit unfair.

Does your buddy use the Jazz-Priest formation or is it just individual units?

Individual units, he's never taken more then two max. Even he saw that having 4+ units entirely of priests aint worth it. He's tried quite a few things with it, from running 20 strong to MSU, I can't exactly remember what worked and what didn't, it's been a while at this point

Waaaghpower wrote:
Anyone care to nominate Flash Gitz? 22ppm, you get zero upgrade options, a 4+ Nob base, with a crappy gun that has to sit still if you even want to hit anything. They don't even synergize with anything or anyone. I'm not sure I've ever seen these guys on the board.

I've never seen anyone use Flash Gitz ever, or even heard of them being fielded even in friendly games. I don't even know anything about them aside from the fact Ork players hate them.

We may have a winner here...

Flash Gitz make sense in their formation, but it has the misfortune of labeling everything as Master Crafted instead of TL. For practicality purposes it is the worst formation in the game despite being one that covers the weakness of a unit.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Flash Gitz make sense in their formation, but it has the misfortune of labeling everything as Master Crafted instead of TL. For practicality purposes it is the worst formation in the game despite being one that covers the weakness of a unit.

I dunno about worst formation in the game. DEldar have the Kabalite Raiding party which has a ton of tax units for a tiny bonus

I can confirm that vespid are bad, not overshadowed. They're willingness to run, they're inability to shoot well without support, the fact they can't JSJ and are easy to kill, all just make them crap. At 18 points a model they're worthless. a 12 man maxed out squad of vespid is 216 points for 12 shots at bs 3. 6 will hit the marines, 3 will wound, and then they'll maybe get cover.

Compare this to plasma crisis suits. You can get 4 of them with two plasma rifles for 208 points. they can jump shoot jump, have leadership 8, 3+ armor, 24 inch range and rapid fire. For less points, I have 8 shots at 24 inches and 16 at 12 inches. Of those shots 8 will hit, 7~ will wound. Also, and here's the kicker, they're AP 2, not ap 3. This squad reliably brings down dreadknights, the vespid cost more and can barely force a morale check on a 10 man tac squad if they're lucky.

A squad of breachers will do the job better than vespid too and for less points, whilst not taking up a fast attack slot. Vespid are bad, and not needed. The models are expensive too and look bad. Put all this together, and you've a bad case of crappy model syndrome.

Flash gitz are worse than you think, they get an unupgradeable 6+ save. That said, my money is on the tyranid maleceptor

Flash gitz are not as bad as you'd think they're worse cause they have a trukk option. They can occasionally hurt something with their snazzguns and than finish off in melee with a bunch of s5 attacks cause they're still orks. Not saying they're good, just not completely worthless thanks to trukks.

Possessed are really bad but got some good buffs with the new traitor legions. And even before that i had some limited success with daemonkin possessed (have to take a tax squad for the decurion) due to them having daemon of khorne rule there and some free buffs from formation like fnp or extra attacks.

I run Flash Gitz a fair amount of the time and they do work for me. They rely on the Battlewagon to be protected but their firepower is a MEQ melter. Ive seen entire marine squads melt to a single round of shooting from them and they are decently durable to vehicle explosions due to being 2 wound models. But like much of the Ork codex whoever wrote it have no idea what they where doing and removed their 4+ armor and gave each of them a bosspole because reasons?

The Flash Gitz formation would be good but the logistics of rolling 20 assault 3 master crafted weapons is a nightmare to do properly and I'm almost willing to bet money nobody at GW even play tested it.

shortymcnostrill wrote:
Flash gitz are worse than you think, they get an unupgradeable 6+ save. That said, my money is on the tyranid maleceptor

I was about to question how neither Thousand Sons, Defilers nor Warp Talons had recieved a mention yet but I think we've found a winner here with the maleceptor. That thing is absolutely terrible. Even a pyrovore has a place coming out of a tyrannocyte, albeit a very nice one that's not really needed in a 'Nid army, but the maleceptor IIRC is about as likely to do a wound to itself as it is to the enemy all the while sucking up precious warp charge that you could be casting catalyst or paroxysm with. Yeah, maleceptor hands down, even over flash gits.

The FW kroot options sold so little that they went OOP. And they were pretty bad.

But I think those flamey Tyranids things get the prize. Pyrovores!

Mutilators.
CC specialists without any special rules to help them in CC, SnP, have to change their weapons every turn. Possessed and Warp Talons might be overcosted but at least they aren't that bad in the one job they are supposed to do.

Nobody on GW even played the actual ork codex in general. Is the only explanation to such absurd codex full of random stuff, overcosted units.
No mention the lack of elemental wargear for HQ: no invulnerable save option for only cc characters. Also not even a 3+ option. And the 2+ option still lacks of invulnerable and obey you to carry a power claw... so is not strange that any melee HQ from the game kill you first xDD

And lack of basic weapon choices among the army (like true decent antitank range weapons like melta or lasscanons). And specialist units usually have 6+ with l7.

Also lot of overcosted units as well vehicles (maybe the only more or less not overcosted is the trukk)



So yeah, choose any ork unit but the tankbustas and the mekk cannons and there you have the worst unit in the game xDD



From csm, the mutilators and the possesed are strong candidates too. The warp talons and their lack of assault grenades are interesting too hahaha

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Mutilators.
CC specialists without any special rules to help them in CC, SnP, have to change their weapons every turn. Possessed and Warp Talons might be overcosted but at least they aren't that bad in the one job they are supposed to do.

i've had success with solo mutilators. They're in no way amazing but can be used as deepstrikers to disrupt the enemy backfield and create threat buffers. Funnily enough, in my 6 mutilator, 4 obliterator list, muties did better than obliterators. In all 4 games that i ran them. 3 games were a win, 4-th was a loss. Not too bad. They do compliment a spawnstar well enough. But i need to say that i used daemon allies for banners to get reduced deepstrike scatters. If they scattered less or were faster - at least not snp, they'd be a decent unit with a place in many lists.

 Vector Strike wrote:
The FW kroot options sold so little that they went OOP. And they were pretty bad.

But I think those flamey Tyranids things get the prize. Pyrovores!

Not sure I agree on the FW Kroot. Knarloc Riders weren't impressive, but the Great Knarloc is a staggeringly cheap MC (51 (!)pts for a 5-Wound T5 MC with Stealth (Forests), though he does have a mandatory pack of 4-8 6pt Kroot following him around, being ablative wounds, and preventing him from running away).

Interesting question. I'm going to throw Kommandos out there as a pretty terrible unit but perhaps not the worst. Elite slot, 10 points each for a slugga boy with Stealth and the ability to take two big shootas, rokkits or a 15 point flamer/power weapon pointless hybrid. Almost certainly worse than even Flash Gitz, if you exclude the huge Snikrot formation.

Ratlings would rate pretty highly on a list of worst units. A handful of BS4 sniper shots on a fragile platform. Wooo. Rough Riders as well for being expensive, slightly faster guardsmen that want to charge, but aren't even particularly good at it. And then they're more or less useless after a single charge.

I remember Kommandos from 4th/5th Edition. Everyone feared and loathed them. Are they bad now?

Rough Riders were always terrible. How did I forget about them?

 BBAP wrote:
I remember Kommandos from 4th/5th Edition. Everyone feared and loathed them. Are they bad now?

Rough Riders were always terrible. How did I forget about them?

That was probably because you used to be able to attach non-Infiltrate ICs to an Infiltrating unit so people could attach Ghazghkull and Outflank behind enemy lines where he'd run amok. I've not seen anyone using them since the new codex dropped and I'm certainly not enticed to try them very often.

I've also had some limited success with rough riders. They're quite niche but they're really good at killing 3+ stuff. I just got a min squad with a meltabomb sarge. That's it. They're overpriced and very fragile but if you really like the little horse dudes, there's no reason to not use a min squad. They'll likely have targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for kommandoes - they were good cause they charged from outflank and you could afford to wait a couple turns for the reserves to arrive. Also, a hidden power klaw nob was very good back than. It could kill anything. Yes, there was a time when fists were the answer to even the most op stuff. No invis. No 2++, no re-rollable saves. Fnp was rare and got ignored by any ap2, t5 was rare and quite expensive. And most importantly, no challenges and player-chosen wound allocation.

 koooaei wrote:
I've also had some limited success with rough riders. They're quite niche but they're really good at killing 3+ stuff. I just got a min squad with a meltabomb sarge. That's it. They're overpriced and very fragile but if you really like the little horse dudes, there's no reason to not use a min squad. They'll likely have targets.

I really really like the concept, but I'll probably just use the Krieg version, which at least have some semblance of durability. Either that or make my own version, with blackjack and hookers.

 Blacksails wrote:
Ratlings would rate pretty highly on a list of worst units. A handful of BS4 sniper shots on a fragile platform. Wooo. Rough Riders as well for being expensive, slightly faster guardsmen that want to charge, but aren't even particularly good at it. And then they're more or less useless after a single charge.

Come on, leave the little guys alone

I last played 40k when it was 5th edition, and I used to like taking them. Yeah, they'd fall over in a stiff breeze, but they were reasonably priced and had the scouts and infiltrate rule, and sniper rifles were half decent as well.

A decent unit for the points you paid.

I have no idea what they're like in later editions...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


I have no idea what they're like in later editions...

No one else knows either! They probably haven't seen a table globally this edition.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


I have no idea what they're like in later editions...

No one else knows either! They probably haven't seen a table globally this edition.

They were fun models to paint and their backstory is pretty amusing, especially their love of petty crime

Oh yeah, fun idea for sure. Wasn't there a unique character they used to have for them?

 Blacksails wrote:
Oh yeah, fun idea for sure. Wasn't there a unique character they used to have for them?

I'm not sure - perhaps you're thinking of the Ogryns?

Damn it, I know they're bad on the tabletop as well, but Ogryns are another of my favourite units with a good backstory. Nork Deddog even made it to retirement.

Damn you GW for ruining my favourite units

IIRC they could take some Mongol-looking dude as sergeant upgrade

I'm pretty sure Sly Marbo was a Catachan pattern ratling.

Oh, about the rough riders. They actually used to be brutal before the 'update' when you could take the mongol special dude on mechano-horse. I remember the opponent being like: "huh, you're taking what unit?" and than they murdered a sm bike command squad before they got to strike. For like third the point cost.

Unfortunately, they've lost the mongol dude and actually became a bit more expensive now. But they can still pay off with just one charge vs any 3+ target (that's not invisible, ini6+ and doesn't kill them on overwatch). Last time i used them was, interestingly enough, vs another sm bike command squad - this time the iron hand one with 4+++ and a couple 3++ shields. The comsquad has just charged the remaining of a conscript squad but underestimated the power of 5+ re-rollable armor and didn't manage to finish the conscripts off. The next thing was a squad of 5 rough riders striding right from behind a wrecked chimera and charging in. Killed a 3++ dude, an apothecary and wounded a Librarian. Than they failed morale and withdrew - as conscript deaths were still too high - to regroup later on and claim an objective.

I vote the changeling.

He brings nothing to the table for a daemon army. He is a waste of points, nothing else.

Darkstrider is REALLY bad because of his points cost. He costs as much as an entire Firewarrior unit and as his unit takes casualties his effectiveness diminishes because his entire purpose is to make the rest of the unit better. He adds nothing to the units durability and he ends up just making the squad he joins a bigger target because in killing the unit your removing double the points off the board. Also his -1 toughness kit would be useful except you can get more firepower, wounds, ground control, and just total utility out of another Firewarrior squad.

Putting him in a Pathfinder unit is just asking for even more points lose and the only powerful weapons that would work well with his toughness reducer would be the Ion and Rail Rifles which are limited to 3 per unit and pathfinders have guardsmen armor but with those weapons rival the cost of special weapon space marines. Tau also lack vehicles with firepowers to shoot out of so its not like a metal bawks can keep them safe. In all he is entirely impractical in every way and is outclassed by the far more practical solution of just taking more infantry.

Pink horrors.

*ducks for cover as The Dakka, as a whole, swoops in to remove my head from my shoulders.


Nah, it's probably plain IG. Feth those guys.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Pink horrors.

Not "the worst", but the Daemons Codex dudes are... not good. Warpflame is hateful and silly.

I'm going to have to back the tyranid maleceptor on this.
It's a hair over 200 points for a weaker than average TMC statline (4+ armour, really?), and is built solely around delivering a psychic power to the enemy.

The power in question being basically a psychic shriek variant, except it only affects a single model, deals D3 wounds on a failed test, and costs 2 warp charges.
Because you know, if you're going to make the powers effects weaker than the original, why not make it cost an extra warp charge too?
As someone mentioned earlier, it's about as likely to perils and wound itself, as it is to deal a wound to the enemy with this.

Oh, and it has the ability where it can cast this power up to 3 times a turn. For when you have some kind of mid-game brain rupture and decide to pour your entire armies pool of warp charges into this garbage fire.

My personal vote would go to the humble Tyranid Ripper. No ranged weapon, no synapse, dies to templates and ID, and doesn't do anything special like the other swarm unit (that I know of), the scarab swarm.

Electropriests would be great if they were like 45 points for a ten man squad. You could use them to hold objectives, twenty man units could tarpit units and you could sacrafice them without concern. But 90 points for five guys that are all going to die to the first unit that shoots at them?

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
Electropriests would be great if they were like 45 points for a ten man squad. You could use them to hold objectives, twenty man units could tarpit units and you could sacrafice them without concern. But 90 points for five guys that are all going to die to the first unit that shoots at them?

...4.5pts/model for two S5/AP4 attacks apeice on T4 models with a 5++ and FNP? What would you price Grots at? -3pts? -4pts?

 carldooley wrote:
My personal vote would go to the humble Tyranid Ripper. No ranged weapon, no synapse, dies to templates and ID, and doesn't do anything special like the other swarm unit (that I know of), the scarab swarm.

Well, they can deepstrike (for a small points premium), and be objective secured. Which is why they still end up in some of my lists.
Sure they won't do anything after they arrive except sit there and eat each other. But they can still hold an objective while they're doing that.

I'd actually rate rippers as the second best tyranid troop choice, under mucolid spores.

 BBAP wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Pink horrors.

Not "the worst", but the Daemons Codex dudes are... not good. Warpflame is hateful and silly.

Yeah, but the summon-capable ML3 psykers in Troops whose primaris can put a dozen autocannon shots downrange is in contention for the best Troops choice in the game, not the worst.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
Electropriests would be great if they were like 45 points for a ten man squad. You could use them to hold objectives, twenty man units could tarpit units and you could sacrafice them without concern. But 90 points for five guys that are all going to die to the first unit that shoots at them?

...4.5pts/model for two S5/AP4 attacks apeice on T4 models with a 5++ and FNP? What would you price Grots at? -3pts? -4pts?

T3, but yes that would be the best spam unit in the game if it was friggen 4.5 per model.

My vote goes to an extremely obscure unit. Corpseraker Apothacaries, part of the FW Tyrant's Legion list, are 50pts for a basic apothacary, w/o independant character, in a unit of 2+ servitors at 10/pp armed only with chainswords. Their only special ability is that if an enemy space marine (and only space marine) unit is wiped out within 6" of the apothacary's unit, roll a d6. On a 6, you earn an extravictory point. Vespids, pyrovores, fulgrites; I can see how you could potential use them, even if they are incredibly inferior to other options. Corpsetakers, I have no fething clue how you'd use them...

 nudibranch wrote:
My vote goes to an extremely obscure unit. Corpseraker Apothacaries, part of the FW Tyrant's Legion list, are 50pts for a basic apothacary, w/o independant character, in a unit of 2+ servitors at 10/pp armed only with chainswords. Their only special ability is that if an enemy space marine (and only space marine) unit is wiped out within 6" of the apothacary's unit, roll a d6. On a 6, you earn an extravictory point. Vespids, pyrovores, fulgrites; I can see how you could potential use them, even if they are incredibly inferior to other options. Corpsetakers, I have no fething clue how you'd use them...

Dark Harvest works on your own as well. +1 to VP if any SM is wiped out nearby... That said he's still possibly the worst unit in the Tyrant's Legion list, if only he could at the very least grant a FNP bubble or something rather then just to his servitors!

Dark eldar hellions------- just a bad unit.
jump movement
5+ save
t3
Short range guns that cant hurt armour
low number of cc attacks
13pts a piece
oh and no move though cover and a 'large' foot print so hiding is not easy at all. I really like them but just cant bring myself to use them.

Skullhammer wrote:
Dark eldar hellions------- just a bad unit.
jump movement
5+ save
t3
Short range guns that cant hurt armour
low number of cc attacks
13pts a piece
oh and no move though cover and a 'large' foot print so hiding is not easy at all. I really like them but just cant bring myself to use them.

Nah man, Bloodbrides are even less mobile, less ranged firepower, worse armor, and cost the same

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
The FW kroot options sold so little that they went OOP. And they were pretty bad.

But I think those flamey Tyranids things get the prize. Pyrovores!

Not sure I agree on the FW Kroot. Knarloc Riders weren't impressive, but the Great Knarloc is a staggeringly cheap MC (51 (!)pts for a 5-Wound T5 MC with Stealth (Forests), though he does have a mandatory pack of 4-8 6pt Kroot following him around, being ablative wounds, and preventing him from running away).

That actually doesn't sound too bad if it can infiltrate in with kroot

Gentlemen may I present to you the Adepta Sororitas Sister Repentia squad. WS 4 with 2 attacks base, fearless, rage, fleet, STR 6 AP2 armorbane weapons, AND once per game they can get Feel No Pain on a 3+ in melee! At 17 points per model that's a lot of killing power for a reasonable price right?

Nope. With T3, Initiative 1 and an awesome 6++ save, they are one of the easiest to kill units in 40k. A squad of guardsmen with lasgun will butcher them in the shooting phase, and kill the rest before they swing in melee. Plus they have no access to an assault vehicle.

They're a completely oddball unit. They will savage vehicles and an equivalent point value of almost anything with Initiative 1 in a bloody exchange of mutually assured destruction in melee combat. But 5 Marines with bolters and a flamer with wipe them out for no losses.

IandI wrote:
Gentlemen may I present to you the Adepta Sororitas Sister Repentia squad. WS 4 with 2 attacks base, fearless, rage, fleet, STR 6 AP2 armorbane weapons, AND once per game they can get Feel No Pain on a 3+ in melee! At 17 points per model that's a lot of killing power for a reasonable price right?

Nope. With T3, Initiative 1 and an awesome 6++ save, they are one of the easiest to kill units in 40k. A squad of guardsmen with lasgun will butcher them in the shooting phase, and kill the rest before they swing in melee. Plus they have no access to an assault vehicle.

They're a completely oddball unit. They will savage vehicles and an equivalent point value of almost anything with Initiative 1 in a bloody exchange of mutually assured destruction in melee combat. But 5 Marines with bolters and a flamer with wipe them out for no losses.

Glass canon. You get what you pay for, I mean if you want to stick them in a rhino they might get a chance to kill some stuff.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
Electropriests would be great if they were like 45 points for a ten man squad. You could use them to hold objectives, twenty man units could tarpit units and you could sacrafice them without concern. But 90 points for five guys that are all going to die to the first unit that shoots at them?

...4.5pts/model for two S5/AP4 attacks apeice on T4 models with a 5++ and FNP? What would you price Grots at? -3pts? -4pts?

Two attacks that require an inept opponent for you to use. Not to mention the ones you picked don't even have a shooting attack. Pick the unit with a measly 12" AP4 shooting attack and you loose the AP4 in melee. Maybe I'm being a little over the top at 4.5 points but with no transport, no deep strike and no infiltrate the only way to get these guys anywhere is by walking, and one or two two turns of S3 or better shooting takes them off the board. You can't use them as objective babysitters because again, they are too few and too easy to kill. Ninety points for five makes them a frail and expensive bodyguard for the Magos. It's too bad, I think they are really cool looking models but I haven't bought any because I can't come up with a way to play them that makes them worth the points they cost.

The Priests benefit from Canticles of the Omnissiah. If they were 45pts apiece you could take a Numinious Conclave to get full-power Canticles in an allied contingent of Cult Mech, which seems a bit beardy.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Pink horrors.

Not "the worst", but the Daemons Codex dudes are... not good. Warpflame is hateful and silly.

Yeah, but the summon-capable ML3 psykers in Troops whose primaris can put a dozen autocannon shots downrange is in contention for the best Troops choice in the game, not the worst.

They can't summon anymore, they aren't ML3 they just make extra warp charges based on unit size (so only know 1 power), and they're shooting only get autocannon strength if you take a bulky formation AND take an IC with an expensive upgrade and attach it to the horror unit.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I vote the changeling.

He brings nothing to the table for a daemon army. He is a waste of points, nothing else.

He may be awful, but i think the masque of slaanesh is even worse. The changeling at least counts as a herald so it only takes up a quarter of a HQ slot. The changeling is a psyker so at least it lends warp charges to other better psykers. The changeling might end up with good stats if he ever gets into combat. The Masque is just wasted points.

Either way though a toughness 3 2 wound non-independent character with a 5++ save is worthless for 75 points.

 coblen wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I vote the changeling.

He brings nothing to the table for a daemon army. He is a waste of points, nothing else.

He may be awful, but i think the masque of slaanesh is even worse. The changeling at least counts as a herald so it only takes up a quarter of a HQ slot. The changeling is a psyker so at least it lends warp charges to other better psykers. The changeling might end up with good stats if he ever gets into combat. The Masque is just wasted points.

Either way though a toughness 3 2 wound non-independent character with a 5++ save is worthless for 75 points.

The Masque can be really good. She rerolls her invul so if you can get her invul to 2++ with grimoire + cursed earth she becomes invincible. Also her dances are amazing. She can single handedly shut down deathstars by making them move only d3" at a time

The Masque once stopped my flame Crisis to overwatch a bunch of daemonettes, netting him a campaign objective.
She's not that not-useful

Ever seen a 1000 point superfriends star get shut down for the entire game by the Masque? It's one of the best things out there. While she can't attch to other units because she's not an IC, other IC's can attach to her and provide at least some wounds to keep her alive. Unfortunately, she takes up an entire HQ slot to herself instead of 1/4 like other heralds, so it really is meta dependant to run her.

AFAIK The Masque can stop deathstars dead in their tracks and there's nothing they can do about it. Seems useful to me.

Maleceptor.

It is such an ill thought out option for Tyranids. It is Mastery Level 2, and has a focused witchfire attack, that is Warp Charge 2. Now in order to perform the actual focused element of the power an additional warp charge needs to be generated. Luckily with the latest FAQ it no longer needs to roll to hit (a small blessing),This can be stopped by a deny the witch roll, if that doesn't stop it, there is also the chance for a look out, sir roll. So this means that 6 warp tokens will have been wasted, to generate 3 warp charges, it is best to use double the amount needed. This also increases the likelihood of a perils.

Oh, and one of the best ways this model is a slap in the face for Tyranid players. For years we have decried the lack of invulnerable saves on our Monstrous creatures, and in the army as a whole. So GW finally give us one... a mighty 5++, and to balance this out they give us a highly useful 4+ armour save. All this for a highly contested Elites spot on the FOC. Why take Hive Guard, or Venomthropes, when you can bring this woefully useless beast?

Good going GW.

Oh, and it is worth pointing out that it is only one point less powerful than a Haruspex in combat. So yeah, this is how bad our Monstrous Creatures really are, when one of our dedicated psychic creatures is so close to being as equally bad in close combat as one of our close combat monsters.

Still, having said all this it is more useful than the paperweight known as the Pyrovre. That thing is just something that keeps getting worse.

The FW ork lifta-droppa wagon is pretty awful. It'll blow itself up as soon as hurt anything, can't hurt superheavies, and is in terms of defensive stats a battlewagon. It can't even carry troops. All it can do is drive around, soak up a couple of shots, and maybe blow up a Rhino if Gork smiles on you.

Terminators

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Terminators

Still better than Wyches and Bloodbrides. At least Terminators have some level of durability and damage, even if they're greatly overcosted

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Terminators

Still better than Wyches and Bloodbrides. At least Terminators have some level of durability and damage, even if they're greatly overcosted

Durability/pt is REALLY bad, though.

1 termie costs less than 3 blood brides. Now talk about durability. Termies are kings compared to really bad stuff in the game.

I'd like to mention a burna bomber. It's a plane that costs 115 base, has a twin-linked supashoota which has a neat s6 heavy bolter profile, though as it's an ork firing it, he shoots at bs2. It also has a Twin-linked bigshoota which is an ap5 heavy bolter and it's even fired by a bs3 grot! Too bad it faces backwards and can only see the sky behind a plane as the plane itself needs to be modelled at a slight angle forward to be able to shoot the supashoota at ground targets that are closer than ~18" away. Well, it's not all. It has 2 burna bombs that are s5 ap4 ignore cover large blast bombs. Not too bad, you say, but take into consideration that it's a 10-10-10 plane. And it's supersonic, means it can't land to be effectively placed if the enemy maneuvres even a tiny bit. You need a very specific enemy position to be able to bomb 1-st turn and IF the enemy has something that's afraid of a s5 ap4 large blast, he can just shoot a few heavy bolters at it to force you jink and not be able to drop a bomb or shoot skorcha missiles. Yep, skorcha missiles are 10 pts one-use only s5 ap4 small blast missiles. And being a plane you don't know when it would decide to arrive. And it's a plane that can't even land. In an ork army that's all about spamming the board and outscoring + outlasting the enemy.

There is really no purpose behind it. The concept is interesting - a light pyrobomber that burns hidden light targets alive ignoring their cover
but the execution and pricing is awful.

Pyrovore. It is and always will be the pyrovore.

 Vankraken wrote:
Darkstrider is REALLY bad because of his points cost. He costs as much as an entire Firewarrior unit and as his unit takes casualties his effectiveness diminishes because his entire purpose is to make the rest of the unit better. He adds nothing to the units durability and he ends up just making the squad he joins a bigger target because in killing the unit your removing double the points off the board. Also his -1 toughness kit would be useful except you can get more firepower, wounds, ground control, and just total utility out of another Firewarrior squad.

Putting him in a Pathfinder unit is just asking for even more points lose and the only powerful weapons that would work well with his toughness reducer would be the Ion and Rail Rifles which are limited to 3 per unit and pathfinders have guardsmen armor but with those weapons rival the cost of special weapon space marines. Tau also lack vehicles with firepowers to shoot out of so its not like a metal bawks can keep them safe. In all he is entirely impractical in every way and is outclassed by the far more practical solution of just taking more infantry.

But if he mans the tidewall gun, he can ID T6 models.
He's bad, but I think vespids and Aun'shi are way worse.

Vespids are also very bad because it's unclear what they're supposed to do. They have AP3 guns so should be MEQ killers. At the same time, I6 with H&R, fleet and jump packs makes you think you should assault with them. But they get torn to pieces by marines because of low S and attacks. Move through cover and stealth ruins could make them decent objective holders, but they're expensive and don't have the range to shoot from cover.
So they pay 18ppm to get all these special rules that don't work at all with one another.

Aun'shi at least has a clear role: he's supposed to kill characters in challenges. He's just bad at it, and can't get any support from the rest of the codex.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Pink horrors.

Not "the worst", but the Daemons Codex dudes are... not good. Warpflame is hateful and silly.

Yeah, but the summon-capable ML3 psykers in Troops whose primaris can put a dozen autocannon shots downrange is in contention for the best Troops choice in the game, not the worst.

They can't summon anymore, they aren't ML3 they just make extra warp charges based on unit size (so only know 1 power), and they're shooting only get autocannon strength if you take a bulky formation AND take an IC with an expensive upgrade and attach it to the horror unit.

There are summons in the new Daemon Tzeentch discipline, I will concede I've been playing the ML incorrectly, and the existence of Exalted Flamers makes the bulky formation not that bulky in practice.

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Flash Gitz make sense in their formation, but it has the misfortune of labeling everything as Master Crafted instead of TL. For practicality purposes it is the worst formation in the game despite being one that covers the weakness of a unit.

I dunno about worst formation in the game. DEldar have the Kabalite Raiding party which has a ton of tax units for a tiny bonus

Excuse me, but have you seen the new SW battleforce formation?

1 unit of Wolf Guard, 1 unit of WG Termies, 1 unit of fenrisian wolves, 1 SW flyer, and 1 unit of Blood Claws, for *drumroooooooll*

"If the unit of wolf guard or WG termies successfully makes a charge, the unit of blood claws gets to reroll charge distance for the phase."

SO GOOD. SO GLAD I BOUGHT THAT 150 POINT PLANE FOR NOTHING!

There's a special unit of grots that have a named runtherd that costs 5 pt above a regular runtherd and for this 5 pt he gets...a name.

Berzerkers.

They where allready hard to love, but since the Traitor Legions book release, the only thing why you would field them i see, is if you really want to run a Maelstrom of Gore...

For 4poits less, you get WE CSM that can litteraly do everything that a Zerker do, and can still take special weapons and be equiped with bolt pistols, bolters AND CCW, so they have more versatility.

Yes Zerkers have WS5, but really who cares?, there isn't much difference with WS4 anyways, plus with VotLW they get Hatred for IoM.

Really making the iconic unit of a WE army, more uselesxs then they allready was, flabergast me.

Zerkers have better chances to make 1-st turn charges in maelstorm of gore + get free strikes. They have no place in a cad but it's not new since 6-th edition, really.

IandI wrote:
Gentlemen may I present to you the Adepta Sororitas Sister Repentia squad. WS 4 with 2 attacks base, fearless, rage, fleet, STR 6 AP2 armorbane weapons, AND once per game they can get Feel No Pain on a 3+ in melee! At 17 points per model that's a lot of killing power for a reasonable price right?

Nope. With T3, Initiative 1 and an awesome 6++ save, they are one of the easiest to kill units in 40k. A squad of guardsmen with lasgun will butcher them in the shooting phase, and kill the rest before they swing in melee. Plus they have no access to an assault vehicle.

They're a completely oddball unit. They will savage vehicles and an equivalent point value of almost anything with Initiative 1 in a bloody exchange of mutually assured destruction in melee combat. But 5 Marines with bolters and a flamer with wipe them out for no losses.

I disagree. Repentia are a glass cannon, and they're very rock-paper-scissors. If a unit of Fire Warriors ever gets a clean shot at them with anything except Overwatch, things have already gone horribly wrong. They exist to butcher vehicles and MCs that have a small number of attacks. I will admit, the FAQ on allied transports makes them harder to use, but here's how you do it: you take Uriah Jacobus (or a Canoness and a Priest if you feel lucky on fishing for Warlord Traits), make him your Warlord, and join him to a full-size unit of Repentia. You then put them in an allied Land Raider. I'd rather have a Stormraven, but you can't really do that anymore. Roll 'em up to their intended target and charge, popping the AoF and the War Hymn for rerollable saves in close combat as you do. Now they have a rerollable 5++ backed by 3+ FNP, instead of just a measly 6++, and they become obnoxiously hard to kill, and they massacre whatever you just hit. They're expensive, they're not great, and they're very special-purpose, but they don't suck.

Now, on the other hand, Vespids and Storm Guardians? They suck. Vespids, people have been over. But Storm Guardians? They get forgotten because they're in a very powerful codex, but they're easily the most UP unit in Codex: Craftworlds, and I think they're worse than Wyches. Even worse? They compete with Guardian Defenders, who are better in practically every way. What can they do? Well, they're a basic WS4 S3 T3 I5 guy, which isn't horrible, statline-wise, and they have a shuriken pistol (decent) and a chainsword. That doesn't sound too bad, but they have miserable 5+ armor and no assault transport without using Dark Eldar allies (and if you're doing that, use Wyches, for Kaine's sake). Even worse, the shooty unit they compete with has an Assault 2 gun, so they both get to shoot and charge. So, Storm Guardians get an extra S3 AP- attack (that usually hits on a 4) in melee. To get it, they have to give up an S4 AP5 Bladestorm shot that hits on a 3+, and they have to give up a Relentless heavy weapon. Now, sure, they can get a smattering of meltaguns or flamers, or a power sword or two. The power swords, though, are 15 points, and they're still on an S3 guy. I'd rather have the extra shuriken dakka any day of the week, Eldar do not lack ways to kill vehicles, nor ways to kill hordes, even in cover. You can apply psychic buff shenanigans, but by the time you do that, you could have done it to literally any other unit. Even if your plan is to apply Enhance or Empower, Guardian Defenders do it better.

That of course ignores Dire Avengers and Windriders. Storm Guardians might not be the worst unit in the game, but they may very well be the most outclassed in their slot.

Rough riders are pretty terrible, ratings arnt too bad if you can get them in cover. As for worst unit in the game. Sgt. Harker. He's almost the same cost of a base veteran squad and all you get is a relentless heavy bolter. Just pay the 10 extra points and mount the squad in a chimera for a relentless heavy bolter. ‎

Still staking my claim on Hellions.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Still staking my claim on Hellions.

But bloodbrides are slower hellions with less shooty!

Actually, I'm going to submit the land raider.

Land Raiders are too expensive and their design is addle-pated, but they're far from the *worst* unit. I'd rather have a Land Raider than 250 points of Pyrovores or Storm Guardians, for example.

jade_angel wrote:
Land Raiders are too expensive and their design is addle-pated, but they're far from the *worst* unit. I'd rather have a Land Raider than 250 points of Pyrovores or Storm Guardians, for example.

I'd take the storm guardians. All day ,every day, and twice on Tuesday. Land Raider is not only mind numbingly awful, it encourages awful, awful play.

Land Raiders are to be feared if you're one of the factions that can't deal with them. No ranged melta, D or Haywire can make things look very different. They're still overly expensive but being able to put that killy unit wherever you want it and shoot my Open-Topped and auto-penetrated transports with a Lascannon or two can cause some headaches.

xlDuke wrote:
Land Raiders are to be feared if you're one of the factions that can't deal with them. No ranged melta, D or Haywire can make things look very different. They're still overly expensive but being able to put that killy unit wherever you want it and shoot my Open-Topped and auto-penetrated transports with a Lascannon or two can cause some headaches.

No, they aren't because they'll immobilize themselves on a bush. And they can't shoot. And marine assault units are awful. There is no upside to the land raider at all.

They may immobilise themselves which is nonsensical (fluffwise, not modelwise) and one of the many flaws they have. I had Chaos Landraiders in my mind rather than loyalist ones so I should have implied that before but I feel my point still stands. At AV14 there's no need to hide it behind that ruined wall for a cover save because there's nothing I've got to shoot at it. The positives are so situational though and outweighed completely by the negatives that I agree it's a terrible unit for it's cost and it's certainly up there on the list of totally defunct units.

Martel then if your so worried about the land raise imobilising itself why not stop moving it through terrain or get new dice

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Martel then if your so worried about the land raise imobilising itself why not stop moving it through terrain or get new dice

What a font of tactical knowledge you are.

One reason I rate it so poorly is the price tag. At least the pyrovore is fewer points wasted. You have to buy land raiders in increments of 250 points.

Funny I use a land raider in my chaos army. I've never had it imobilise itself ice found either reserving it or using it alongside rhino rush works pretty damn well

Then your opponents are idiots. The chaos land raider is terrible, even against BA. You also either play with very little terrain or are lying about the immobilization thing. You have to test twice for entering the terrain once.

No you don't you only test once. Maybe you should read the rulebook or it could be shock horror i have other units running around that are a bit more scary than a land raider with a lord and his terminator retinue inside

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
No you don't you only test once. Maybe you should read the rulebook or it could be shock horror i have other units running around that are a bit more scary than a land raider with a lord and his terminator retinue inside

You roll when you enter and then roll when you exit. So if you end up on said terrain, that's TWO tests.

Martel732 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
No you don't you only test once. Maybe you should read the rulebook or it could be shock horror i have other units running around that are a bit more scary than a land raider with a lord and his terminator retinue inside

You roll when you enter and then roll when you exit. So if you end up on said terrain, that's TWO tests.

What page is that in the rulebook cause I can only remember it saying about rolling when you enter terrain not about having to test when you end on terrain but even so there are these marvelous things called dozer blades use them

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
No you don't you only test once. Maybe you should read the rulebook or it could be shock horror i have other units running around that are a bit more scary than a land raider with a lord and his terminator retinue inside

You roll when you enter and then roll when you exit. So if you end up on said terrain, that's TWO tests.

What page is that in the rulebook cause I can only remember it saying about rolling when you enter terrain not about having to test when you end on terrain but even so there are these marvelous things called dozer blades use them

Dozer blades aren't an option on Land Raiders. Unless BA has special treatment on its Land Raiders.

You keep digging in deeper. Anyone care to field that one?

pm713 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
No you don't you only test once. Maybe you should read the rulebook or it could be shock horror i have other units running around that are a bit more scary than a land raider with a lord and his terminator retinue inside

You roll when you enter and then roll when you exit. So if you end up on said terrain, that's TWO tests.

What page is that in the rulebook cause I can only remember it saying about rolling when you enter terrain not about having to test when you end on terrain but even so there are these marvelous things called dozer blades use them

Dozer blades aren't an option on Land Raiders. Unless BA has special treatment on its Land Raiders.

Chaos can take Dozer Blades. There's no reason Chaos Land Raiders should ever immobilize.

 andysonic1 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
No you don't you only test once. Maybe you should read the rulebook or it could be shock horror i have other units running around that are a bit more scary than a land raider with a lord and his terminator retinue inside

You roll when you enter and then roll when you exit. So if you end up on said terrain, that's TWO tests.

What page is that in the rulebook cause I can only remember it saying about rolling when you enter terrain not about having to test when you end on terrain but even so there are these marvelous things called dozer blades use them

Dozer blades aren't an option on Land Raiders. Unless BA has special treatment on its Land Raiders.

Chaos can take Dozer Blades. There's no reason Chaos Land Raiders should ever immobilize.

Doesn't help most of us does it? Even with Dozer Blades it can still happen which is ridiculous.

 andysonic1 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
No you don't you only test once. Maybe you should read the rulebook or it could be shock horror i have other units running around that are a bit more scary than a land raider with a lord and his terminator retinue inside

You roll when you enter and then roll when you exit. So if you end up on said terrain, that's TWO tests.

What page is that in the rulebook cause I can only remember it saying about rolling when you enter terrain not about having to test when you end on terrain but even so there are these marvelous things called dozer blades use them

Dozer blades aren't an option on Land Raiders. Unless BA has special treatment on its Land Raiders.

Chaos can take Dozer Blades. There's no reason Chaos Land Raiders should ever immobilize.

Outside of them being shot to death, sure.

I have to throw out daemon hosts

Gotta agree land raiders are pretty crap considering they are meant to be the big bad tank for the SM

It's better to pay the extra points for a spartan assault tank.

edit: void

LR are below mediocre but way above bad. If you think LR are bad, you're doing good. It's like poverty in different countries.

Maybe in an absolute sense, but for the cost, I think they are in competition for the worst.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe in an absolute sense, but for the cost, I think they are in competition for the worst.

For 9 pt above a possessed marine you get a power fist, stormbolter, deepstrike and 2+ armor

 koooaei wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe in an absolute sense, but for the cost, I think they are in competition for the worst.

For 9 pt above a possessed marine you get a power fist, stormbolter, deepstrike and 2+ armor

14 pts for ba. LR is one of the few reliable ways in the game to lose 250 pts to a bush or a single shot.

Land Raiders are not great, but they're not "the worst" by virtue of the fact they have some capacity to kill stuff and not die. Repentia likewise; they are also a dreadful unit that can't compete with the other stuff in the army list for a place on the table, but **if** they get into combat and **if** they get to swing, they'll usually kill something.

I'm changing my answer to Dire Avengers, because they have silly hats and nobody takes them ever.

Hey now. I like those Avengers. Nothing says fun like shooting and running behind terrain to avoid getting shot back.

pm713 wrote:
Hey now. I like those Avengers. Nothing says fun like shooting and running behind terrain to avoid getting shot back.

I mean sure, in terms of gameplay they're not bad units, but those hats are just insane. Running behind cover won't save you if the enemy can see your giant mega-hat (with handy base broom attachment) poking up from behind the wall.

 BBAP wrote:
Land Raiders are not great, but they're not "the worst" by virtue of the fact they have some capacity to kill stuff and not die. Repentia likewise; they are also a dreadful unit that can't compete with the other stuff in the army list for a place on the table, but **if** they get into combat and **if** they get to swing, they'll usually kill something.

I'm changing my answer to Dire Avengers, because they have silly hats and nobody takes them ever.

Been fielding Dire Avengers since I started Eldar, and compared to a lot of other things in the game they are solid. Particulary in previous editions

 BBAP wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Hey now. I like those Avengers. Nothing says fun like shooting and running behind terrain to avoid getting shot back.

I mean sure, in terms of gameplay they're not bad units, but those hats are just insane. Running behind cover won't save you if the enemy can see your giant mega-hat (with handy base broom attachment) poking up from behind the wall.

I like the crests. Besides any terrain that shows them also shows the whole upper body at least where I am.

I get that DA aren't bad units, if only for the extra Wave Serpent - but their hats are half the size of the dudes themselves. That's a three, four foot tall hat right there. And it has a brush on it. How can anyone fight a war wearing a four foot tall brush-hat? How could you do anything? How do they even fit in the Wave Serpent?

40k models having odd proportions is kind of a staple of the product line no?

 Ashiraya wrote:
40k models having odd proportions is kind of a staple of the product line no?

It is - but a four foot tall hat? With a brush on it? Even in a world of Electropriest Jazz-Hands and stick-wielding vulture-monsters that stands out.

 BBAP wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
40k models having odd proportions is kind of a staple of the product line no?

It is - but a four foot tall hat? With a brush on it? Even in a world of Electropriest Jazz-Hands and stick-wielding vulture-monsters that stands out.

What about the rhinos and the fact that the space marine poking his upper body out shouldn't be able to fit because his shoulder pads are too big?

 gummyofallbears wrote:
What about the rhinos and the fact that the space marine poking his upper body out shouldn't be able to fit because his shoulder pads are too big?

... and where do his legs go? Dangling down in the cockpit next to the driver?

 BBAP wrote:
I get that DA aren't bad units, if only for the extra Wave Serpent - but their hats are half the size of the dudes themselves. That's a three, four foot tall hat right there. And it has a brush on it. How can anyone fight a war wearing a four foot tall brush-hat? How could you do anything? How do they even fit in the Wave Serpent?

I collected Eldar almost exclusively for the hats.

I still haven't seen a page number in the rule book that says a Land Raider has to make a Difficult Terrain Test twice or more when it moves into, stops, or moves out of terrain.

Worst unit in the game? How about Sisters of Battle Repentia Squad? 85 points for 5 models, 4 of which are T3 have no armor save, 6++ wielding Eviscerators (Sx2, AP2, melee, armorbane, Twoo-handed, and the best part: Unwieldy)? +14pts/model. The Mistress isn't bad, but she isn't any good either. Oh, they do have a once per game ability to give themselves FnP 3+ for that phase only.

I don't think there is a specific rule that says they take two tests, I think he means that because of their size you often end up stopping in terrain and then have to take tests on two successive turns to get through 1 piece of terrain.

I vote for the Tempestus Commissars.

They've got essentially no utility whatsoever.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I vote for the Tempestus Commissars.

They've got essentially no utility whatsoever.

They're 25 points to fill up a mandatory HQ slot if you don't want to spend points on a Command Squad.

So they're good but only in the same way as Mucolids.

I'm pretty sure that lifta-droppa wagons are worse than land raiders. The lifta-droppa is a 225-pt battlewagon with a transport capacity of 6, which can try to hit one enemy non-superheavy vehicle a turn with ork BS2, then if it hits it has a 1/6 chance of failing horribly, a 2/3 chance of removing d3 HP and nudging it gently in a random direction, and a 1/6 chance of exploding the vehicle and moving it around randomly. Added to this is the fact that it can only take 2 rokkits max, so even if you fire those instead youre firepower is puny. Land Raiders are better at shooting things, have better armor, and can carry more models, all for just a few more points.

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Still staking my claim on Hellions.

But bloodbrides are slower hellions with less shooty!

But Bloodbrides can dive through trees and not die. They can also G2G and get cover saves from chest high walls. They've ALSO got grenades for charging into cover.

 Jimsolo wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Still staking my claim on Hellions.

But bloodbrides are slower hellions with less shooty!

But Bloodbrides can dive through trees and not die. They can also G2G and get cover saves from chest high walls. They've ALSO got grenades for charging into cover.

While that is true, even with cover they are going to die long before reaching combat, while hellions are terrible, but have something to from longer range.
They're both so bad, its hard to tell which is worse!

Hellions are worse because bloodbrides can have a transport and a good one at that in the venom. Where as tge poor hellions get nothing which is a shame as there models are excellent.

I think two or three of the bottom five units are DE. Easily.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
I'm pretty sure that lifta-droppa wagons are worse than land raiders. The lifta-droppa is a 225-pt battlewagon with a transport capacity of 6, which can try to hit one enemy non-superheavy vehicle a turn with ork BS2, then if it hits it has a 1/6 chance of failing horribly, a 2/3 chance of removing d3 HP and nudging it gently in a random direction, and a 1/6 chance of exploding the vehicle and moving it around randomly. Added to this is the fact that it can only take 2 rokkits max, so even if you fire those instead youre firepower is puny. Land Raiders are better at shooting things, have better armor, and can carry more models, all for just a few more points.

It's still cheaper to fail utterly. It's close, imo.

Grey knights tech marine. He is a HQ that no one will EVER take

The Sanguinor. 200 list dollars for a glorified jump pack arty armor captain with a power sword...that can't join a unit. I don't think the rules designers understand how bad it is to not have independent character on an expensive guy.

Made even more hilarious by the fact that in fluff he does things like solo 3 carnifexes at once (shield of Baal exterminatus) which he could absolutely never do on the table without the weightiest weighted dice in all history.

He was much better in 5th.

Aun Shi is a pretty terrible unit for the tau, probably worse than vespid

 Jimsolo wrote:
He was much better in 5th.

he was essentially a DPrince, nice stats, EW, etc etc, how is he now?

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
he was essentially a DPrince, nice stats, EW, etc etc, how is he now?

Well, he's got a charge-out-of-DS formation and a Fearless aura. Pretty situational.

You poor Children, you think those are bad? Try Ogryns.
For 45 points you get a model whose sole redeeming feature is that it has a decent T. Otherwise it has no mobility, no way to deal with Medium or Heavy infantry, mediocre firepower, no delivery system, LD that might as well not exist and a 5+ save.
Compare this to Thunderwolf Cavalry which cost the exact same.

Ogryns are leagues more useful than a LR. A single grav hit removes one wound from Ogryns and makes a LR completely useless. 5 Ogyrns are STILL cheaper than the goddamn Land Raider. Ogryns also soak fire much better than marine terminators. There are a LOT worse units than Ogryns. You just can't compare to the best assault unit in the entire Imperium.

Martel732 wrote:
Ogryns are leagues more useful than a LR. A single grav hit removes one wound from Ogryns and makes a LR completely useless. 5 Ogyrns are STILL cheaper than the goddamn Land Raider. Ogryns also soak fire much better than marine terminators. There are a LOT worse units than Ogryns. You just can't compare to the best assault unit in the entire Imperium.

After doing this comparison on the 'fix Ogryns' thread in Proposed Rules I'm going to have to disagree. Ogryns are more expensive than Terminators, don't have anywhere near the damage output, can only take more fire if you specifically design the parameters to let them, and have Ld7 so they run screaming at the drop of a hat.

Don't Ogryns have ripper guns? That's better output than terminators. LD7 is an issue. It's been so long since I worried about LD in any shape form or fashion. I'd rather have roll LD7 than just be picked up off the table.

Martel732 wrote:
Don't Ogryns have ripper guns? That's better output than terminators. LD7 is an issue. It's been so long since I worried about LD in any shape form or fashion. I'd rather have roll LD7 than just be picked up off the table.

Three S5/AP- shots at BS3/12" range instead of two S4/AP5 shots at BS4/24" range. I'd say the melee problem (3 S5/AP- attacks at WS4/I2 versus 2 S8/AP2 attacks at WS4/Unwieldy for the Terminators) overrides that.

Also Ogryn are Very Bulky and can't Deep Strike, though they seem to have taken away the rule that they need a 50pt IC before they'll get into a vehicle.

 master of ordinance wrote:
You poor Children, you think those are bad? Try Ogryns.
For 45 points you get a model whose sole redeeming feature is that it has a decent T. Otherwise it has no mobility, no way to deal with Medium or Heavy infantry, mediocre firepower, no delivery system, LD that might as well not exist and a 5+ save.
Compare this to Thunderwolf Cavalry which cost the exact same.

Ogryns have S5 T5 W3. You are paying 45ppm for Warbosses (who normally cost 60 points) with short-range heavy bolters.

Ogryns are fine.

 Ashiraya wrote:
...Ogryns have S5 T5 W3. You are paying 45ppm for 60p Warbosses with short-range heavy bolters.

Ogryns are fine.

And Ld7, no way to improve on a 5+ armour save, no way to get a semblance of a useful melee weapon, and Very Bulky.

(Don't forget that this 'short-ranged heavy bolter' has no AP)

I've given up on AP other than 2 or 3 meaning anything in this game. Hell, the best weapon in the game is AP 6.

Martel732 wrote:
I've given up on AP other than 2 or 3 meaning anything in this game. Hell, the best weapon in the game is AP 6.

We know you've given up on AP meaning anything. The fact that there are good weapons with low AP doesn't mean that they wouldn't be better with higher AP.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
...Ogryns have S5 T5 W3. You are paying 45ppm for 60p Warbosses with short-range heavy bolters.

Ogryns are fine.

And Ld7, no way to improve on a 5+ armour save, no way to get a semblance of a useful melee weapon, and Very Bulky.

(Don't forget that this 'short-ranged heavy bolter' has no AP)

LD7 is standard for the IG codex so no special things there. Same with the save - use cover.

They are a low tier unit, yes. But most of their codex is. They are not special.

Martel732 wrote:Ogryns are leagues more useful than a LR. A single grav hit removes one wound from Ogryns and makes a LR completely useless. 5 Ogyrns are STILL cheaper than the goddamn Land Raider. Ogryns also soak fire much better than marine terminators. There are a LOT worse units than Ogryns. You just can't compare to the best assault unit in the entire Imperium.

Oh I know there are worse, but not many - at least the LR is IN the army with Grav.... Most of the time.
Ogryns just die to anything and everything long before they ever reach combat, and even when they do their attacks usually just bounce off the enemies armour.

 Ashiraya wrote:
...Ogryns have S5 T5 W3. You are paying 45ppm for 60p Warbosses with short-range heavy bolters.

Ogryns are fine.

They cost as much as a far faster, far harder hitting, far tougher unit, have no feasible way outside of FW to get across the board unless you take four Ogryn squads (and at that point you might as well not bother), have a 12" ranged cannon that has zilch in the way of AP and is often better at scaring the enemy than anything else, lose in assault to most basic enemy troops (IE, Tacticals), and will vanish as soon as they are forced to take an LD check unless you invest in characters to escort (babysit) them.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
...Ogryns have S5 T5 W3. You are paying 45ppm for 60p Warbosses with short-range heavy bolters.

Ogryns are fine.

And Ld7, no way to improve on a 5+ armour save, no way to get a semblance of a useful melee weapon, and Very Bulky.

(Don't forget that this 'short-ranged heavy bolter' has no AP)

LD7 is standard for the IG codex so no special things there. Same with the save - use cover.

They are a low tier unit, yes. But most of their codex is. They are not special.

Most of their Codex isn't 45pts/model.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've given up on AP other than 2 or 3 meaning anything in this game. Hell, the best weapon in the game is AP 6.

We know you've given up on AP meaning anything. The fact that there are good weapons with low AP doesn't mean that they wouldn't be better with higher AP.

Yes, 2 or 3. But 4+ is basically all the same in practice. We are talking AP - to AP 5. There is little functional difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"at least the LR is IN the army with Grav."

That doesn't make the LR good. In fact, that has nothing to do with the Land Raider at all.

 master of ordinance wrote:

They cost as much as a far faster, far harder hitting, far tougher unit

Which one? Wulfen? Wraiths? Come on, you are not competing with them. You are IG. Compare them to Chaos Terminators or something.

If they had been on par you would have been codex: Ogryns and that would not have been an ideal situation either.

have no feasible way outside of FW to get across the board unless you take four Ogryn squads (and at that point you might as well not bother), have a 12" ranged cannon that has zilch in the way of AP and is often better at scaring the enemy than anything else

Yeah, that's about their job. You are IG, an effective melee list is not something you can do and sending in the Ogryns alone will obviously get them killed.

Keep them back, in cover, and use them to deter attackers (such as assault marines, who point for point are a fairly even match for Ogryns - about half the price, but with considerably lower attack power).

They are not a hammer unit - they are a deterrence unit.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Most of their Codex isn't 45pts/model.

Most of their codex is not S5/T5/W3 with weapons to match.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

They cost as much as a far faster, far harder hitting, far tougher unit

Which one? Wulfen? Wraiths? Come on, you are not competing with them. You are IG. Compare them to Chaos Terminators or something.

If they had been on par you would have been codex: Ogryns and that would not have been an ideal situation either.

Except we are competing with Wulfen and Wraiths, alongside Thunderwolves and Assault Terminators, and a plethora of other CC units. You remind me of an ex GW rules writer we have in my local club. When discussing the inherent balance issues in 40K his response to Ogryns costing as much as TW whilst being less than a quarter as effective was "well, they are in the Guard codex, so they are balanced in relation t Guardsmen, if they where in the SW codex then they would be better or cost less"

have no feasible way outside of FW to get across the board unless you take four Ogryn squads (and at that point you might as well not bother), have a 12" ranged cannon that has zilch in the way of AP and is often better at scaring the enemy than anything else

Yeah, that's about their job. You are IG, an effective melee list is not something you can do and sending in the Ogryns alone will obviously get them killed.

Keep them back, in cover, and use them to deter attackers (such as assault marines, who point for point are a fairly even match for Ogryns - about half the price, but with considerably lower attack power).

They are not a hammer unit - they are a deterrence unit.

And yet IG can be out shot by some of the so-called Melee lists (SW for instance).

But anyway, if you send the Ogryns in alone then yes, they will be butchered, but even if you advance with them and cover them they will still be cut down because they are that bad. What is more, keeping them back only ever works if your opponent A) wants to get close anyway, and B) Aims for the portion of the line where the Ogryns are, oh and C) Does not just shoot them up first. And even then the Ogryns prove to be far less than stellar in this roll, often being out punched by the enemies assault units.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Most of their Codex isn't 45pts/model.

Most of their codex is not S5/T5/W3 with weapons to match.

Most of the codex is overpriced S3/T3/W1, but that aside the Ogryns are still not balanced. Balancing a unit against a codex only works when placed in a vacuum, hence the current state of 40K.

Against a lot of lists, Ogryns last a lot longer than assault terminators. Against a list like Tau, Ogyrns are actually better than anything in my codex.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Except we are competing with Wulfen and Wraiths, alongside Thunderwolves and Assault Terminators, and a plethora of other CC units. You remind me of an ex GW rules writer we have in my local club. When discussing the inherent balance issues in 40K his response to Ogryns costing as much as TW whilst being less than a quarter as effective was "well, they are in the Guard codex, so they are balanced in relation t Guardsmen, if they where in the SW codex then they would be better or cost less"

So buff them up to Wraith level and you now have a codex where everything except Ogryns is completely irrelevant. Would that make you happy?

even if you advance with them

Don't. That's not the point. If they advance they will be the sole target of enemy short-range weaponry and quickly be cut down. As said, hold them back.

What is more, keeping them back only ever works if your opponent A) wants to get close anyway, and B) Aims for the portion of the line where the Ogryns are, oh and C) Does not just shoot them up first.

Keep them in cover, or better yet, outside of LOS. Hell, hiding them behind the very tanks you are protecting should solve it neatly - to crack your AV14 you either need stuff like melta (which brings you into Ogryn threat range) or stuff like grav and ranged D (which means you are probably facing one of the stronger armies that would butcher you even if you'd spend the Ogryn points on Guardsmen instead )

And even then the Ogryns prove to be far less than stellar in this roll, often being out punched by the enemies assault units.

They do very decently against both Assault Marines and Terminators, typical assault units they are likely to encounter in practice due to everybody and their old grandma playing SM. Both ASM and Termies have a low attack count which means they can't effectively shift the Ogryns, while the Ogryns wear them down in return.

Sure, they will fold to Wraithknights, but then again, what in the IG codex won't?

 Ashiraya wrote:
...They do very decently against both Assault Marines and Terminators...

...In what pipe dream? (By my math it takes four Terminator-phases to kill an Ogryn by comparison to seven Ogryn-phases to kill a Terminator in melee)

Six Ogryn-phases to me. Ogryns benefit a lot more should they the charge as well than Terminators would due to powerful assault weapons (and do they still have FC?)

The counterattack role (and the rules of DS, if Terminators do that) means Ogryns are more likely to get the charge.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Six Ogryn-phases to me. Ogryns benefit a lot more should they the charge as well than Terminators would due to powerful assault weapons (and do they still have FC?)

The counterattack role (and the rules of DS, if Terminators do that) means Ogryns are more likely to get the charge.

Ogryns benefit less from the charge given that they have less powerful assault weapons and there are few of them. One extra S5/AP- attack per 45pt model is going to get you less than one extra S8/AP2 attack per 35pt model.

 wuestenfux wrote:
It's the Tactical squad.
The master of none.

That is a particularly ridiculous statement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Terminators

Yet another remarkably ridiculous statement.

Just because a unit has certain applications in which it shines, and many in which it doesn't, and you have to know how to use it properly rather than just throw it at the enemy army randomly and then be butthurt that it didn't "make it's points back", doesn't mean it's bad. It means the player in question is bad.

No offence.

Martel732 wrote:
Against a lot of lists, Ogryns last a lot longer than assault terminators. Against a list like Tau, Ogyrns are actually better than anything in my codex.

like what for example? Theydo die to pulse rifles better than termies. And have more opportunities to do so while footslogging.

 Weboflies wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
It's the Tactical squad.
The master of none.

That is a particularly ridiculous statement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Terminators

Yet another remarkably ridiculous statement.

Just because a unit has certain applications in which it shines, and many in which it doesn't, and you have to know how to use it properly rather than just throw it at the enemy army randomly and then be butthurt that it didn't "make it's points back", doesn't mean it's bad. It means the player in question is bad.

No offence.

In what incredibly specific situation are tactical squads and terminators "good"?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Ogryns benefit less from the charge given that they have less powerful assault weapons and there are few of them.

No, the stormbolter is not more powerful than the ripper gun.

One extra S5/AP- attack per 45pt model is going to get you less than one extra S8/AP2 attack per 35pt model.

Don't Ogryns have FC?

 Ashiraya wrote:


Don't Ogryns have FC?

No, they only have Stubborn, Very Bulky and Hammer of Wrath

Oh. Shows how much I have read the new codex. They used to have it, I do believe.

HoW is not useless either, but it is much better depending on how close you are.

Gun drones
I can't actually find a use for them at all.
Like you don't mind the free ones I get from vehicles but urgh
I am never fielding a gun drone unless it comes with a vehicle

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Gun drones
I can't actually find a use for them at all.
Like you don't mind the free ones I get from vehicles but urgh
I am never fielding a gun drone unless it comes with a vehicle

A squad of 4 are cheap, and taken with the drone formation (in it or not) are better damage output/durability then fire warriors. Obviously marker drones are a better use, but gun drones aren't terrible compared to say bloodbrides, wyches, vespids, ogryn, terminators, etc.

 Wolfblade wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Gun drones
I can't actually find a use for them at all.
Like you don't mind the free ones I get from vehicles but urgh
I am never fielding a gun drone unless it comes with a vehicle

A squad of 4 are cheap, and taken with the drone formation (in it or not) are better damage output/durability then fire warriors. Obviously marker drones are a better use, but gun drones aren't terrible compared to say bloodbrides, wyches, vespids, ogryn, terminators, etc.

Idk I guess at that point I'd sooner take dual burst crisis suits and that's saying something lol

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Gun drones
I can't actually find a use for them at all.
Like you don't mind the free ones I get from vehicles but urgh
I am never fielding a gun drone unless it comes with a vehicle

A squad of 4 are cheap, and taken with the drone formation (in it or not) are better damage output/durability then fire warriors. Obviously marker drones are a better use, but gun drones aren't terrible compared to say bloodbrides, wyches, vespids, ogryn, terminators, etc.

Idk I guess at that point I'd sooner take dual burst crisis suits and that's saying something lol

That's more expensive however, and takes an elite slot (assuming a CAD)

 Wolfblade wrote:

In what incredibly specific situation are tactical squads and terminators "good"?

There are plenty of situations in which they are good. You can't throw either one 1-1 willy nilly against a deathstar, or a Knight Titan but you're not meant to. That's not the point though, because that wasn't the question. The question was "what's the worst unit in the game" and neither of those are even close.

 Weboflies wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

In what incredibly specific situation are tactical squads and terminators "good"?

There are plenty of situations in which they are good. You can't throw either one 1-1 willy nilly against a deathstar, or a Knight Titan but you're not meant to. That's not the point though, because that wasn't the question. The question was "what's the worst unit in the game" and neither of those are even close.

No I'm pretty sure Terminators are still up there, with Tactical Marines only getting applications in a Demi-Company.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

No I'm pretty sure Terminators are still up there, with Tactical Marines only getting applications in a Demi-Company.

So... Tac squads are only useful when used in the most common, and arguably most powerful, formation in the SM codex, as well as arguably one of the most powerful formations in the game.... Obviously "the worst"...

Terminators are difficult to use properly. Not being able to Assault same turn as a Deep Strike is a drag, but you can load em up in a Land Raider, and, the ability to move, then pop off Storm Bolters and an Assault Cannon, and THEN assault with Power Fist/ Chainfist is strong. They can Instant Death multi wound models up to T4, or they can effectively engage a flank of infantry/ light vehicles. As long as you don't walk them up the middle of the board or Deep strike them right in the middle of the enemy position, you can make things happen with them. Regardless, as long as you don't expose them needlessly to AP2, they're going to soak up a lot of enemy fire that would be much more damaging to your other units. It's also important to bear in mind, that you're paying for Relentless and Power fists, so you have to use that to your advantage. You also have to bear in mind that they're only 5 models, and in a D6 system, even at 2+ save you're going to fail 17% of those rolls.

Look at the fluff/ history. They came out in conjunction w the original Space Hulk. They're meant to be used in tight spaces against other infantry, where the enemy can't make their numbers count. Think 300 not Rambo. You have to use them carefully as any commander would with any elite unit in real world conditions.

It'd love to see them cost less. I'd love to see the option to take them without the power fists, and with the specialist ammo instead. I'd love to see them able to assault the same turn as arriving from Deep Strike. All the same, they are still far from the worst unit in the game.

The fact you said you could load them up in a Land Raider as though that were a viable tactic shows how out of touch you are with how bad certain units are in the game.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The fact you said you could load them up in a Land Raider as though that were a viable tactic shows how out of touch you are with how bad certain units are in the game.

How is that not a viable tactic? The Land Raider itself is a very powerful unit, and it allows the Terminators to disembark, shoot, and then charge. Once again, You can't just drive your land raider up the middle of the table against a Tau gun line and expect you're going to steamroll the enemy. You have to use your head and apply proper tactics. Still not auto-win, still not the worst thing in the game.

Did Land Raiders get a buff when I wasn't looking? Mine don't tend to accomplish much and mostly serve as an expensive chauffeur for my Centurions

Perhaps I shouldn't have said "very powerful", but it is a powerful unit, in it's own right.

This is all dependent on point level and power level of course. Neither unit on it's own will stand up to a Knight Titan or your opponent's entire force, and neither is meant to.

 Weboflies wrote:
Perhaps I shouldn't have said "very powerful", but it is a powerful unit, in it's own right.

This is all dependent on point level and power level of course. Neither unit on it's own will stand up to a Knight Titan or your opponent's entire force, and neither is meant to.

Neither Terminators or a Land Raider are powerful at any point level.

Land raiders are in contention for the worst unit in the game. Try again.

Losing sight, here. Tac Squads and Terminators are sucky units, but they're not "the worst unit in the game".

That honour belongs to Crusaders in the shiny new Codex: Imperial Agents book. Come at me.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Neither Terminators or a Land Raider are powerful at any point level.

Yet another particularly ridiculous statement.

Would I take regular Terminators in a Land Raider to a tournament, no. There's far more powerful stuff out there, but in smaller point games, or with a decent amount of LOS blocking terrain, or if kept out of harm's way til later in the game when attrition is more of a factor, either one of those units alone could tip the balance.

In a power-gaming/ competitive meta, either of the units discussed would likely not perform optimally. They still wouldn't be the worst units you could take.

 BBAP wrote:
Losing sight, here. Tac Squads and Terminators are sucky units, but they're not "the worst unit in the game".

That honour belongs to Crusaders in the shiny new Codex: Imperial Agents book. Come at me.

Maybe; I don't know the stats. I do know that the LR is a good way to lose 250 pts real fast.

Martel732 wrote:

 BBAP wrote:
Losing sight, here. Tac Squads and Terminators are sucky units, but they're not "the worst unit in the game".

That honour belongs to Crusaders in the shiny new Codex: Imperial Agents book. Come at me.

Maybe; I don't know the stats. I do know that the LR is a good way to lose 250 pts real fast.

They're WS4 Guardsmen with a Storm Shield and power sword. Land Raiders do indeed suck, but they have two twin-linked lascannons on them and thus can kill things. Unlike Crusaders

Easily HANDS DOWN the worst unit in the game is the Thunderhawk Transporter.
At 400pts you get a 12/12/10 (admittedly 9hp) flyer with a massive FOUR tl heavy bolters. Its upgrades are awful too.
It can transport 15 models and 2 rhino sized vehicles or 1 LR sized vehicle. But if you are transporting a Landraider to avoid it being shot up... then why did you take a landraider to begin with? Not accounting for the fact that you have just paid base 650pts not including other units to have taken a landraider off the board for the first 2 turns at least (due to the Transporter needing to be in hover) to make sure it gets there safely. Footslogging marines will get there at the same time as the marines in that LR.
Combine that with the fact that its Loading rule means it slows down every vehicle you use it with and takes them off the board for at least a turn as well as making itself vulnerable for 2 turns, it makes for a unit where I cant see a single scenario in which you would use it.
Awful is an understatement. At 400pts too remember.

Oh - but its immune to the melta rule. Yay!

 Weboflies wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

No I'm pretty sure Terminators are still up there, with Tactical Marines only getting applications in a Demi-Company.

So... Tac squads are only useful when used in the most common, and arguably most powerful, formation in the SM codex, as well as arguably one of the most powerful formations in the game.... Obviously "the worst"...

Terminators are difficult to use properly. Not being able to Assault same turn as a Deep Strike is a drag, but you can load em up in a Land Raider, and, the ability to move, then pop off Storm Bolters and an Assault Cannon, and THEN assault with Power Fist/ Chainfist is strong. They can Instant Death multi wound models up to T4, or they can effectively engage a flank of infantry/ light vehicles. As long as you don't walk them up the middle of the board or Deep strike them right in the middle of the enemy position, you can make things happen with them. Regardless, as long as you don't expose them needlessly to AP2, they're going to soak up a lot of enemy fire that would be much more damaging to your other units. It's also important to bear in mind, that you're paying for Relentless and Power fists, so you have to use that to your advantage. You also have to bear in mind that they're only 5 models, and in a D6 system, even at 2+ save you're going to fail 17% of those rolls.

Look at the fluff/ history. They came out in conjunction w the original Space Hulk. They're meant to be used in tight spaces against other infantry, where the enemy can't make their numbers count. Think 300 not Rambo. You have to use them carefully as any commander would with any elite unit in real world conditions.

It'd love to see them cost less. I'd love to see the option to take them without the power fists, and with the specialist ammo instead. I'd love to see them able to assault the same turn as arriving from Deep Strike. All the same, they are still far from the worst unit in the game.

I'll ask again then, in what situation on the table top, not the fluff are they useful? (And like others have said, the termie + LR combo is a trap as it costs way too many points for way too little survivability and damage)

 BBAP wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 BBAP wrote:
Losing sight, here. Tac Squads and Terminators are sucky units, but they're not "the worst unit in the game".

That honour belongs to Crusaders in the shiny new Codex: Imperial Agents book. Come at me.

Maybe; I don't know the stats. I do know that the LR is a good way to lose 250 pts real fast.

They're WS4 Guardsmen with a Storm Shield and power sword. Land Raiders do indeed suck, but they have two twin-linked lascannons on them and thus can kill things. Unlike Crusaders

Crusaders are supposed to tank, not kill things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Weboflies wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Neither Terminators or a Land Raider are powerful at any point level.

Yet another particularly ridiculous statement.

Would I take regular Terminators in a Land Raider to a tournament, no. There's far more powerful stuff out there, but in smaller point games, or with a decent amount of LOS blocking terrain, or if kept out of harm's way til later in the game when attrition is more of a factor, either one of those units alone could tip the balance.

In a power-gaming/ competitive meta, either of the units discussed would likely not perform optimally. They still wouldn't be the worst units you could take.

No. Even in the most casual environment you can think of, the Land Raider and Terminators are gak choices because each one is an investment of about 200+ points, and ones that have very few situations where they'd EVER make their points back or even be viable. Your opponent has to be stupid to be afraid of Terminators or Land Raiders.

Stand alone without other units to help them?

Rippers for 100% sure, it is definitely rippers.

1) LD 5 with "feed" (every turn past a LD test or 1-3 take wounds, 4-5 no shoot or running must charge"
2) They are Swarms, Flamers and Blast dbl wounds
3) T3, so S6 is ID
4) Again swarms and sense its LD5 with IB that means Objective camping is a no go
5) WS/BS2 and S3 with I2 so not like melee or shooting is an option
6) Upgrdes are costly
7) T-shirt save
8) Its a Nids

All this for the same cost as a SM

Rippers are fine for holding objectives. They just fail their IB test every turn and sit there in the corner quietly eating each other.
They don't do a huge amount of damage to themselves, and unlike most of the alternatives they won't run off the table.

As I said earlier in the thread, they're the second most useful tyranid troop choice, behind mucolid spores.
I'd rather have a unit of rippers than termagants, hormagaunts, warriors, or genestealers.

Despite that, all of your points are true. They are bad. The other troop choices are just worse.

Arson Fire wrote:
Rippers are fine for holding objectives. They just fail their IB test every turn and sit there in the corner quietly eating each other.
They don't do a huge amount of damage to themselves, and unlike most of the alternatives they won't run off the table.

As I said earlier in the thread, they're the second most useful tyranid troop choice, behind mucolid spores.
I'd rather have a unit of rippers than termagants, hormagaunts, warriors, or genestealers.

IMO they arnt the 2n best, for only 1pt more you can get T-gants. They have Better WS, BS, 2 less wounds, but also better Int, Flamers and Blast dont dbl wound them, there LD is 1 higher, already comes with guns and options for better guns, the IB is also better specially for holding objectives.

Only thing better is Rippers can hide easier.

Termagants need babysitters. Their IB means they fall back if you don't dedicate a synapse unit to look after them.

Rippers work fine by themselves. Most of the time they'll inflict a couple of wounds to themselves, which stops once they're down to a single model. It'll probably take a couple of turns before they lose a single base.
Otherwise they'll try to charge enemies in range, which isn't a problem if there are no enemies in range for them to charge.

Arson Fire wrote:
Termagants need babysitters. Their IB means they fall back if you don't dedicate a synapse unit to look after them.

Rippers work fine by themselves. Most of the time they'll inflict a couple of wounds to themselves, which stops once they're down to a single model. It'll probably take a couple of turns before they lose a single base.
Otherwise they'll try to charge enemies in range, which isn't a problem if there are no enemies in range for them to charge.

Different meta I guess, they are literally pointless (more so than anything else Ive play or seen play) in my area.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

No. Even in the most casual environment you can think of, the Land Raider and Terminators are gak choices because each one is an investment of about 200+ points, and ones that have very few situations where they'd EVER make their points back or even be viable. Your opponent has to be stupid to be afraid of Terminators or Land Raiders.

 Wolfblade wrote:

I'll ask again then, in what situation on the table top, not the fluff are they useful? (And like others have said, the termie + LR combo is a trap as it costs way too many points for way too little survivability and damage)

In a smaller point game, (or in a larger point game where you can present enough other threats to keep your opponent from concentrating his fire on them), It's quite feasible to use the combination of AV 14 and hopefully some LOS blocking cover to get the LR up a flank, deploy the Terminators to move/ shoot/ assault/ and hopefully be able to leverage the Instant Death with the Power/ Chain Fists when you get there. Those 2+ are going to be a big advantage in the assault if you were smart enough not to charge a unit with high AP in CC. Ideally, you also picked a target with enough resiliency/leadership that you don't wipe them out or cause them to break until the next Assault Phase at the end of the enemy's turn after all his shooting, and you'll be free to Move/ Shoot/ Assault again, if not, the enemy is likely going to have to use more dice than he wants to to take your Terminators down, leaving your other units more free to do their thing. Maybe it's a unit critical to the enemy's shooting, and your goal isn't to wipe out or break the unit, but to use your high Ld/Sv try to keep them tied in the combat as long as you can. Meanwhile, you've also got a Land Raider in the enemy's face that's also hopefully going to become free free to fire/ ram/ tank shock, or perhaps even use it's bulk to mange LOS/ fire lanes, and mitigate how much fire is going to be able to go against your Terminators. If not, it will likely once a gain soak up more dice than your opponent would like that will be spared from raining down on the rest of your army. While all this is going on,much of the rest of your force is hopefully, getting in position to take and hold objectives, control movement and fire lanes, and get into Rapid Fire/ Special Wpn/ Assault range relatively unmolested. In a higher point game, you could hold them in reserve to help mop up after a Drop Pod list or formation had cleared the table of much of the enemy's high AP, you could use them in conjunction with an aggressive Pod assault to keep the enemy on his heels and overwhelmed with threats. There's power there in the form of good mobility and AV14 with some decent firepower with the Land Raider, as well as the ability to deliver the power of the Terminator's move/ shoot/ assault and 2+. It requires you to think during the game about your tactics, rather than just about combos etc while you're list building, but isn't that a big part of the fun of 40k?

You guys talk as though every game is going to be against the highest power level Tau/ Eldar/ Titan lists out there. As though you're going to be playing on a table with no room to manoeuvre, with little terrain, and no LOS blocking cover. If all you're doing is lining up and shooting across the table and let the best list or whoever gets the first turn win, I don't know why you even play 40k. Doesn't sound like any fun to me, but I digress...

There's sure to be games in any meta, and at any level when your Land Raider full of Terminators doesn't get there, and games when they don't deliver even if they do, but that can be said of a hell of a lot of stuff in the game. These are units that can attract a lot of attention exploiting a weakness in your enemy's position. They don't have to "make their points back" every time if they act as a force multiplyer for the rest of your army, and help you win the mission. I didn't say they were great or even good choices. I didn't say they were easy to use. All I said is they're not the worst units in the game, and they can be made to work for you in certain situations. They're not going to appeal to anyone looking for the latest auto-win list, and you're likely going to lose to that list if units like this make up much of your force, but that isn't what this topic is about. We're not talking about what are some bad units in 40k, or overcosted units in 40k, it's what are the worst, and neither of these are it, nor are Tac squads.

 Weboflies wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

No. Even in the most casual environment you can think of, the Land Raider and Terminators are gak choices because each one is an investment of about 200+ points, and ones that have very few situations where they'd EVER make their points back or even be viable. Your opponent has to be stupid to be afraid of Terminators or Land Raiders.

 Wolfblade wrote:

I'll ask again then, in what situation on the table top, not the fluff are they useful? (And like others have said, the termie + LR combo is a trap as it costs way too many points for way too little survivability and damage)

In a smaller point game, (or in a larger point game where you can present enough other threats to keep your opponent from concentrating his fire on them), It's quite feasible to use the combination of AV 14 and hopefully some LOS blocking cover to get the LR up a flank, deploy the Terminators to move/ shoot/ assault/ and hopefully be able to leverage the Instant Death with the Power/ Chain Fists when you get there. Those 2+ are going to be a big advantage in the assault if you were smart enough not to charge a unit with high AP in CC. Ideally, you also picked a target with enough resiliency/leadership that you don't wipe them out or cause them to break until the next Assault Phase at the end of the enemy's turn after all his shooting, and you'll be free to Move/ Shoot/ Assault again, if not, the enemy is likely going to have to use more dice than he wants to to take your Terminators down, leaving your other units more free to do their thing. Maybe it's a unit critical to the enemy's shooting, and your goal isn't to wipe out or break the unit, but to use your high Ld/Sv try to keep them tied in the combat as long as you can. Meanwhile, you've also got a Land Raider in the enemy's face that's also hopefully going to become free free to fire/ ram/ tank shock, or perhaps even use it's bulk to mange LOS/ fire lanes, and mitigate how much fire is going to be able to go against your Terminators. If not, it will likely once a gain soak up more dice than your opponent would like that will be spared from raining down on the rest of your army. While all this is going on,much of the rest of your force is hopefully, getting in position to take and hold objectives, control movement and fire lanes, and get into Rapid Fire/ Special Wpn/ Assault range relatively unmolested.

These are units that can attract a lot of attention exploiting a weakness in your enemy's position. They don't have to "make their points back" every time if they act as a force multiplyer for the rest of your army, and help you win the mission. I didn't say they were great or even good choices. I didn't say they were easy to use. All I said is they're not the worst units in the game, and they can be made to work for you in certain situations. They're not going to appeal to anyone looking for the latest auto-win list, and you're likely going to lose to that list if units like this make up much of your force, but that isn't what this topic is about. We're not talking about what are some bad units in 40k, or overcosted units in 40k, it's what are the worst, and neither of these are it, nor are Tac squads.

A decent player who sees their opponent spending 650 425 points BASE on a unit will either feed it fodder to tie it up all game, or just ignore it because of the lack of damage output. And rolling a land raider loaded with terminators towards a "critical unit" isn't exactly quick or surprising, and is very easily countered. In an average tourny game (1850 points), that's over a third of your points wasted on slow moving units that don't put out any damage or have the durability to survive much shooting. I'm still waiting for the situation in which they're good. The problem in your situations you presented is getting there. They might stick around in combat vs non-melee focused units, but they don't have a way of getting there. Stormraven? T3 at earliest. Landraider? Easily immobilized. Footslogging? Dead. Deepstrike? Same problems as a stormraven AND footslogging, with the only advantage of possibly getting a round of shooting in.

 Wolfblade wrote:

A decent player who sees their opponent spending 650 points BASE on a unit will either feed it fodder to tie it up all game, or just ignore it because of the lack of damage output. And rolling a land raider loaded with terminators towards a "critical unit" isn't exactly quick or surprising, and is very easily countered. In an average tourny game (1850 points), that's over a third of your points wasted on slow moving units that don't put out any damage or have the durability to survive much shooting. I'm still waiting for the situation in which they're good. The problem in your situations you presented is getting there. They might stick around in combat vs non-melee focused units, but they don't have a way of getting there. Stormraven? T3 at earliest. Landraider? Easily immobilized. Footslogging? Dead. Deepstrike? Same problems as a stormraven AND footslogging, with the only advantage of possibly getting a round of shooting in.

I did a pretty extensive edit to that post while you were writing this. I'm not sure what codex you're looking at, but Terminators in a Land Raider are 425 points base. If the opponent is going to ignore them, then they're going to stand an awful lot better chance of getting more of those points back. The Land Raider is going to make it more difficult to tie them up. There are many situations in which a Land raider would not be "easilly immobilized" before delivering Their payload. I already said they wouldn't be a good choice for tournament play, so I'm not sure why you are pointing that out again. I don't have to outline a situation where they're "good" in a competitive meta, or any situation at all, because that's not the topic of the conversation.

 Weboflies wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

A decent player who sees their opponent spending 650 points BASE on a unit will either feed it fodder to tie it up all game, or just ignore it because of the lack of damage output. And rolling a land raider loaded with terminators towards a "critical unit" isn't exactly quick or surprising, and is very easily countered. In an average tourny game (1850 points), that's over a third of your points wasted on slow moving units that don't put out any damage or have the durability to survive much shooting. I'm still waiting for the situation in which they're good. The problem in your situations you presented is getting there. They might stick around in combat vs non-melee focused units, but they don't have a way of getting there. Stormraven? T3 at earliest. Landraider? Easily immobilized. Footslogging? Dead. Deepstrike? Same problems as a stormraven AND footslogging, with the only advantage of possibly getting a round of shooting in.

I did a pretty extensive edit to that post while you were writing this. I'm not sure what codex you're looking at, but Terminators in a Land Raider are 425 points base. If the opponent is going to ignore them, then they're going to stand an awful lot better chance of getting more of those points back. The Land Raider is going to make it more difficult to tie them up. There are many situations in which a Land raider would not be "easilly immobilized" before delivering Their payload. I already said they wouldn't be a good choice for tournament play, so I'm not sure why you are pointing that out again. I don't have to outline a situation where they're "good" in a competitive meta, or any situation at all, because that's not the topic of the conversation.

As an Ork player, I can verify that a 475pt Land Raider with 5 TH/SS Terminators inside is pretty scary in smaller games, around 1k points. We don't have any kind of anti-armor at range, unless you count Rokkits, who can deal with AV12 reasonably enough but can't do much more than scratch the paint on AV14, so if we want a tank dead, we have to charge it. Charging it, though, means getting within striking distance of those Terminators - Terminators who ID everyone except our bikes and our Warbosses, effectively ignoring any kind of save we could possibly get in Close Combat. Since they're in a Land Raider, we can't just bog them down with Boys either, first we would have to pop the Raider - But like I said, we don't have ranged anti-tank. So if we want them dead, we need to take a strong melee unit, and drop it right next to a squad who can overcome anything our Strong Melee Unit could throw at it.

200 points of Assault Terminators will beat 200 points of Meganobz, any day.

 Weboflies wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

A decent player who sees their opponent spending 650 points BASE on a unit will either feed it fodder to tie it up all game, or just ignore it because of the lack of damage output. And rolling a land raider loaded with terminators towards a "critical unit" isn't exactly quick or surprising, and is very easily countered. In an average tourny game (1850 points), that's over a third of your points wasted on slow moving units that don't put out any damage or have the durability to survive much shooting. I'm still waiting for the situation in which they're good. The problem in your situations you presented is getting there. They might stick around in combat vs non-melee focused units, but they don't have a way of getting there. Stormraven? T3 at earliest. Landraider? Easily immobilized. Footslogging? Dead. Deepstrike? Same problems as a stormraven AND footslogging, with the only advantage of possibly getting a round of shooting in.

I did a pretty extensive edit to that post while you were writing this. I'm not sure what codex you're looking at, but Terminators in a Land Raider are 425 points base. If the opponent is going to ignore them, then they're going to stand an awful lot better chance of getting more of those points back. The Land Raider is going to make it more difficult to tie them up. There are many situations in which a Land raider would not be "easilly immobilized" before delivering Their payload. I already said they wouldn't be a good choice for tournament play, so I'm not sure why you are pointing that out again. I don't have to outline a situation where they're "good" in a competitive meta, or any situation at all, because that's not the topic of the conversation.

Whoops, my bad, I think I was looking at a fully outfitted squad instead of a base squad for some reason. Anyways a barebones squad w/ an assault cannon and a redeemer is 445. Still expensive, and not a whole lot of damage output. Swap those for assault termies and the threat is lessened even more so, and IoW termies are little more than a points sink.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

A decent player who sees their opponent spending 650 points BASE on a unit will either feed it fodder to tie it up all game, or just ignore it because of the lack of damage output. And rolling a land raider loaded with terminators towards a "critical unit" isn't exactly quick or surprising, and is very easily countered. In an average tourny game (1850 points), that's over a third of your points wasted on slow moving units that don't put out any damage or have the durability to survive much shooting. I'm still waiting for the situation in which they're good. The problem in your situations you presented is getting there. They might stick around in combat vs non-melee focused units, but they don't have a way of getting there. Stormraven? T3 at earliest. Landraider? Easily immobilized. Footslogging? Dead. Deepstrike? Same problems as a stormraven AND footslogging, with the only advantage of possibly getting a round of shooting in.

I did a pretty extensive edit to that post while you were writing this. I'm not sure what codex you're looking at, but Terminators in a Land Raider are 425 points base. If the opponent is going to ignore them, then they're going to stand an awful lot better chance of getting more of those points back. The Land Raider is going to make it more difficult to tie them up. There are many situations in which a Land raider would not be "easilly immobilized" before delivering Their payload. I already said they wouldn't be a good choice for tournament play, so I'm not sure why you are pointing that out again. I don't have to outline a situation where they're "good" in a competitive meta, or any situation at all, because that's not the topic of the conversation.

As an Ork player, I can verify that a 475pt Land Raider with 5 TH/SS Terminators inside is pretty scary in smaller games, around 1k points. We don't have any kind of anti-armor at range, unless you count Rokkits, who can deal with AV12 reasonably enough but can't do much more than scratch the paint on AV14, so if we want a tank dead, we have to charge it. Charging it, though, means getting within striking distance of those Terminators - Terminators who ID everyone except our bikes and our Warbosses, effectively ignoring any kind of save we could possibly get in Close Combat. Since they're in a Land Raider, we can't just bog them down with Boys either, first we would have to pop the Raider - But like I said, we don't have ranged anti-tank. So if we want them dead, we need to take a strong melee unit, and drop it right next to a squad who can overcome anything our Strong Melee Unit could throw at it.

200 points of Assault Terminators will beat 200 points of Meganobz, any day.

Orks are also in contention for one of the worst codexes overall, along with 'nids, and maybe IG (and SoB/DE/the new C:IA)

 Wolfblade wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

A decent player who sees their opponent spending 650 points BASE on a unit will either feed it fodder to tie it up all game, or just ignore it because of the lack of damage output. And rolling a land raider loaded with terminators towards a "critical unit" isn't exactly quick or surprising, and is very easily countered. In an average tourny game (1850 points), that's over a third of your points wasted on slow moving units that don't put out any damage or have the durability to survive much shooting. I'm still waiting for the situation in which they're good. The problem in your situations you presented is getting there. They might stick around in combat vs non-melee focused units, but they don't have a way of getting there. Stormraven? T3 at earliest. Landraider? Easily immobilized. Footslogging? Dead. Deepstrike? Same problems as a stormraven AND footslogging, with the only advantage of possibly getting a round of shooting in.

I did a pretty extensive edit to that post while you were writing this. I'm not sure what codex you're looking at, but Terminators in a Land Raider are 425 points base. If the opponent is going to ignore them, then they're going to stand an awful lot better chance of getting more of those points back. The Land Raider is going to make it more difficult to tie them up. There are many situations in which a Land raider would not be "easilly immobilized" before delivering Their payload. I already said they wouldn't be a good choice for tournament play, so I'm not sure why you are pointing that out again. I don't have to outline a situation where they're "good" in a competitive meta, or any situation at all, because that's not the topic of the conversation.

As an Ork player, I can verify that a 475pt Land Raider with 5 TH/SS Terminators inside is pretty scary in smaller games, around 1k points. We don't have any kind of anti-armor at range, unless you count Rokkits, who can deal with AV12 reasonably enough but can't do much more than scratch the paint on AV14, so if we want a tank dead, we have to charge it. Charging it, though, means getting within striking distance of those Terminators - Terminators who ID everyone except our bikes and our Warbosses, effectively ignoring any kind of save we could possibly get in Close Combat. Since they're in a Land Raider, we can't just bog them down with Boys either, first we would have to pop the Raider - But like I said, we don't have ranged anti-tank. So if we want them dead, we need to take a strong melee unit, and drop it right next to a squad who can overcome anything our Strong Melee Unit could throw at it.

200 points of Assault Terminators will beat 200 points of Meganobz, any day.

Orks are also in contention for one of the worst codexes overall, along with 'nids, and maybe IG

You forget Sisters of Battle.

Anyhow, though, that still means that there are a plethora of worse choices than Land Raiders, because they can still be a thorn in the side of someone.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

A decent player who sees their opponent spending 650 points BASE on a unit will either feed it fodder to tie it up all game, or just ignore it because of the lack of damage output. And rolling a land raider loaded with terminators towards a "critical unit" isn't exactly quick or surprising, and is very easily countered. In an average tourny game (1850 points), that's over a third of your points wasted on slow moving units that don't put out any damage or have the durability to survive much shooting. I'm still waiting for the situation in which they're good. The problem in your situations you presented is getting there. They might stick around in combat vs non-melee focused units, but they don't have a way of getting there. Stormraven? T3 at earliest. Landraider? Easily immobilized. Footslogging? Dead. Deepstrike? Same problems as a stormraven AND footslogging, with the only advantage of possibly getting a round of shooting in.

I did a pretty extensive edit to that post while you were writing this. I'm not sure what codex you're looking at, but Terminators in a Land Raider are 425 points base. If the opponent is going to ignore them, then they're going to stand an awful lot better chance of getting more of those points back. The Land Raider is going to make it more difficult to tie them up. There are many situations in which a Land raider would not be "easilly immobilized" before delivering Their payload. I already said they wouldn't be a good choice for tournament play, so I'm not sure why you are pointing that out again. I don't have to outline a situation where they're "good" in a competitive meta, or any situation at all, because that's not the topic of the conversation.

As an Ork player, I can verify that a 475pt Land Raider with 5 TH/SS Terminators inside is pretty scary in smaller games, around 1k points. We don't have any kind of anti-armor at range, unless you count Rokkits, who can deal with AV12 reasonably enough but can't do much more than scratch the paint on AV14, so if we want a tank dead, we have to charge it. Charging it, though, means getting within striking distance of those Terminators - Terminators who ID everyone except our bikes and our Warbosses, effectively ignoring any kind of save we could possibly get in Close Combat. Since they're in a Land Raider, we can't just bog them down with Boys either, first we would have to pop the Raider - But like I said, we don't have ranged anti-tank. So if we want them dead, we need to take a strong melee unit, and drop it right next to a squad who can overcome anything our Strong Melee Unit could throw at it.

200 points of Assault Terminators will beat 200 points of Meganobz, any day.

Orks are also in contention for one of the worst codexes overall, along with 'nids, and maybe IG

You forget Sisters of Battle.

Anyhow, though, that still means that there are a plethora of worse choices than Land Raiders, because they can still be a thorn in the side of someone.

So I did, and apparently the new imperial agents codex too.

 Wolfblade wrote:

Anyhow, though, that still means that there are a plethora of worse choices than Land Raiders, because they can still be a thorn in the side of someone.

So I did, and apparently the new imperial agents codex too.

On the whole, the codex isn't actually that terrible. Inquisitors lost Servo-Skulls and Celestine is apparently gone the way of the dodo, but other than that, nothing is broken and a few things are fixed. Inquisitorial Henchmen squads actually feel like squads of henchmen now, instead of... Whatever it was that they were before. Weird smooshed-together squads of optimized damage/durability/cost ratios? (And 18-pt imperial psyker/guardsman exploits are gone, replaced with 25-pt Astropath psyker RAI.)

Rough Riders, Electropriests, Kroot and Vespids (at least relative to the rest of the codex), Warp Talons, Chosen, non-FW Land Raiders, Kommandos, and Tankbustas after the grenade FAQ.

I'd still say Rubrics are amongst the worst. They got a boost, so they're at least not the worst anymore.

I don't know anything about the 'Nid and DE codices though.

 Wolfblade wrote:
Still expensive, and not a whole lot of damage output.

We can agree on that. I am really hoping they get better or cheaper in the next edition.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crusaders are supposed to tank, not kill things.

In that case they're overcosted - you get to take the 3++ save against more or less everything, but you'll be doing that a lot due to T3, and the more of them you take the worse your unit becomes for its price. They suck.

Thunderhawk Transporter can't be bad because it is Nested Doll Space Marines:

Space marine in space marine (centurion armour) in space marine (land raider) in space marine (Thunderhawk Transporter).


The sheer volume of space marine your space marine so you can space marine while you space marine your space marines would bring a tear even to Master Xibit of the Western Fringe Customs Chapter.

 BBAP wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crusaders are supposed to tank, not kill things.

In that case they're overcosted - you get to take the 3++ save against more or less everything, but you'll be doing that a lot due to T3, and the more of them you take the worse your unit becomes for its price. They suck.

Take a priest for rerollable 3++?

 Weboflies wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

A decent player who sees their opponent spending 650 points BASE on a unit will either feed it fodder to tie it up all game, or just ignore it because of the lack of damage output. And rolling a land raider loaded with terminators towards a "critical unit" isn't exactly quick or surprising, and is very easily countered. In an average tourny game (1850 points), that's over a third of your points wasted on slow moving units that don't put out any damage or have the durability to survive much shooting. I'm still waiting for the situation in which they're good. The problem in your situations you presented is getting there. They might stick around in combat vs non-melee focused units, but they don't have a way of getting there. Stormraven? T3 at earliest. Landraider? Easily immobilized. Footslogging? Dead. Deepstrike? Same problems as a stormraven AND footslogging, with the only advantage of possibly getting a round of shooting in.

I did a pretty extensive edit to that post while you were writing this. I'm not sure what codex you're looking at, but Terminators in a Land Raider are 425 points base. If the opponent is going to ignore them, then they're going to stand an awful lot better chance of getting more of those points back. The Land Raider is going to make it more difficult to tie them up. There are many situations in which a Land raider would not be "easilly immobilized" before delivering Their payload. I already said they wouldn't be a good choice for tournament play, so I'm not sure why you are pointing that out again. I don't have to outline a situation where they're "good" in a competitive meta, or any situation at all, because that's not the topic of the conversation.

You know how much they cost, right? They're not going to make their points back because of how much points they take up.
You're nearing 450 points. That's almost half of a 1000 point game. You have little objective takers, and little offense because you put your eggs in that one gak basket. So in your smaller game, where a Terminator is still less durable than the equivalent price of Marines, you're going to lose a bunch of points.

And it isn't always easy to immobilize a Land Raider? Really? Outside of it having a large footprint and knocking itself out on terrain? Literally every codex has easy ways to knock it out. Even Orks can run up with Tank Bustaz, knock a HP off or two, and throw a Melta Bomb on it.

Not much is needed to invest in that, and they were likely doing it anyway.

nareik wrote:
Thunderhawk Transporter can't be bad because it is Babushka Space Marines:

Space marine in space marine (centurion armour) in space marine (land raider) in space marine (Thunderhawk Transporter).


The sheer volume of space marine your space marine so you can space marine while you space marine your space marines would bring a tear even to Master Xibit of the Western Fringe Customs Chapter.

A Babushka is a headscarf. Or Grandmother, depending on context. I believe you're thinking of a Matryoshka, or Nesting Doll.

 greatbigtree wrote:

nareik wrote:
Thunderhawk Transporter can't be bad because it is Babushka Space Marines:

Space marine in space marine (centurion armour) in space marine (land raider) in space marine (Thunderhawk Transporter).


The sheer volume of space marine your space marine so you can space marine while you space marine your space marines would bring a tear even to Master Xibit of the Western Fringe Customs Chapter.

A Babushka is a headscarf. Or Grandmother, depending on context. I believe you're thinking of a Matryoshka, or Nesting Doll.

Yes, a nesting doll. In Greece they call them Babushkas. I suppose because they are sometimes painted wearing one? thank you for clarifying to anyone who was confused, I'll go back and edit my post to accommodate a more broadly understood name for these dolls.

I should probably have made an inception reference. Way more relevant than nested dolls and Xibit!

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

A decent player who sees their opponent spending 650 points BASE on a unit will either feed it fodder to tie it up all game, or just ignore it because of the lack of damage output. And rolling a land raider loaded with terminators towards a "critical unit" isn't exactly quick or surprising, and is very easily countered. In an average tourny game (1850 points), that's over a third of your points wasted on slow moving units that don't put out any damage or have the durability to survive much shooting. I'm still waiting for the situation in which they're good. The problem in your situations you presented is getting there. They might stick around in combat vs non-melee focused units, but they don't have a way of getting there. Stormraven? T3 at earliest. Landraider? Easily immobilized. Footslogging? Dead. Deepstrike? Same problems as a stormraven AND footslogging, with the only advantage of possibly getting a round of shooting in.

I did a pretty extensive edit to that post while you were writing this. I'm not sure what codex you're looking at, but Terminators in a Land Raider are 425 points base. If the opponent is going to ignore them, then they're going to stand an awful lot better chance of getting more of those points back. The Land Raider is going to make it more difficult to tie them up. There are many situations in which a Land raider would not be "easilly immobilized" before delivering Their payload. I already said they wouldn't be a good choice for tournament play, so I'm not sure why you are pointing that out again. I don't have to outline a situation where they're "good" in a competitive meta, or any situation at all, because that's not the topic of the conversation.

As an Ork player, I can verify that a 475pt Land Raider with 5 TH/SS Terminators inside is pretty scary in smaller games, around 1k points. We don't have any kind of anti-armor at range, unless you count Rokkits, who can deal with AV12 reasonably enough but can't do much more than scratch the paint on AV14, so if we want a tank dead, we have to charge it. Charging it, though, means getting within striking distance of those Terminators - Terminators who ID everyone except our bikes and our Warbosses, effectively ignoring any kind of save we could possibly get in Close Combat. Since they're in a Land Raider, we can't just bog them down with Boys either, first we would have to pop the Raider - But like I said, we don't have ranged anti-tank. So if we want them dead, we need to take a strong melee unit, and drop it right next to a squad who can overcome anything our Strong Melee Unit could throw at it.

200 points of Assault Terminators will beat 200 points of Meganobz, any day.

I'd take the MANz. lightning claws and power weapons are useless against them. MANz have more wounds. You'd need to dump a ton of points into storm hammers while the MANz power klaw comes standard. You can dump even more points into shields but now we're talking 2v1 odds in model count. The MANz have more attacks so being outnumbered that badly is a pretty serious concern.

Not to say I think either unit is bad. They can get hassled pretty bad by elder but people misunderstand their purpose. They can eat 500 Points of shooting or combat for several turns. They're tanks, not dps. I've had killer games with bullyboyz against necrons, tau, AM, CSM, SM, sob, other orks, tyranids and even Titans. If your playing orks, your opponent may favor flamers and other high ap high volume weapons, which MANz laugh at.

Land raiders are far from the worst unit in the game. I'd vote flashgitz. They are bad at shooting and cc and die very easy and are priced like all 3 of those things aren't true.

Terminators are NOT tanky.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Take a priest for rerollable 3++?

CC only though. Bolters will still pop them open.

 slip wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

A decent player who sees their opponent spending 650 points BASE on a unit will either feed it fodder to tie it up all game, or just ignore it because of the lack of damage output. And rolling a land raider loaded with terminators towards a "critical unit" isn't exactly quick or surprising, and is very easily countered. In an average tourny game (1850 points), that's over a third of your points wasted on slow moving units that don't put out any damage or have the durability to survive much shooting. I'm still waiting for the situation in which they're good. The problem in your situations you presented is getting there. They might stick around in combat vs non-melee focused units, but they don't have a way of getting there. Stormraven? T3 at earliest. Landraider? Easily immobilized. Footslogging? Dead. Deepstrike? Same problems as a stormraven AND footslogging, with the only advantage of possibly getting a round of shooting in.

I did a pretty extensive edit to that post while you were writing this. I'm not sure what codex you're looking at, but Terminators in a Land Raider are 425 points base. If the opponent is going to ignore them, then they're going to stand an awful lot better chance of getting more of those points back. The Land Raider is going to make it more difficult to tie them up. There are many situations in which a Land raider would not be "easilly immobilized" before delivering Their payload. I already said they wouldn't be a good choice for tournament play, so I'm not sure why you are pointing that out again. I don't have to outline a situation where they're "good" in a competitive meta, or any situation at all, because that's not the topic of the conversation.

As an Ork player, I can verify that a 475pt Land Raider with 5 TH/SS Terminators inside is pretty scary in smaller games, around 1k points. We don't have any kind of anti-armor at range, unless you count Rokkits, who can deal with AV12 reasonably enough but can't do much more than scratch the paint on AV14, so if we want a tank dead, we have to charge it. Charging it, though, means getting within striking distance of those Terminators - Terminators who ID everyone except our bikes and our Warbosses, effectively ignoring any kind of save we could possibly get in Close Combat. Since they're in a Land Raider, we can't just bog them down with Boys either, first we would have to pop the Raider - But like I said, we don't have ranged anti-tank. So if we want them dead, we need to take a strong melee unit, and drop it right next to a squad who can overcome anything our Strong Melee Unit could throw at it.

200 points of Assault Terminators will beat 200 points of Meganobz, any day.

I'd take the MANz. lightning claws and power weapons are useless against them. MANz have more wounds. You'd need to dump a ton of points into storm hammers while the MANz power klaw comes standard. You can dump even more points into shields but now we're talking 2v1 odds in model count. The MANz have more attacks so being outnumbered that badly is a pretty serious concern.

Not to say I think either unit is bad. They can get hassled pretty bad by elder but people misunderstand their purpose. They can eat 500 Points of shooting or combat for several turns. They're tanks, not dps. I've had killer games with bullyboyz against necrons, tau, AM, CSM, SM, sob, other orks, tyranids and even Titans. If your playing orks, your opponent may favor flamers and other high ap high volume weapons, which MANz laugh at.

Land raiders are far from the worst unit in the game. I'd vote flashgitz. They are bad at shooting and cc and die very easy and are priced like all 3 of those things aren't true.

TH/SS Terminators are 45 points. MANz are 40 points. In a stand-up fight, a MAN will get .4 Wounds against a TH/SS Terminator, and the Terminator will get .84 - Of course, that .84 is Instant Death, so bye bye MANz. (If you break it down by attack, each MANz attack amounts to .13 wounds, each Terminator attack amounts to .42 - This means that Termies also benefit a lot more on the charge.)

170 points of Assault Terminators will kill 3 Meganobz in one turn of combat, while 200 points of Meganobz will kill two Assault Termies.

But the MANZ are better against the field, I think.

MANz have more use against non ID attacks, and have a shooting attack (compared to TH/SS termies).

Obviously termies have better survivability vs AP2/ID attacks, but outside of that it takes more to bring a MAN down, and TH/SS termies have no ranged attack. It's a little foolish to compare MANz to assault termies though, MANz are not a dedicated assault unit like TH/SS termies are. They're more of a general purpose unit like regular termies, and are only good in the ork codex because a nob squad is just as expensive if given PKs and 'eavy armor (iirc)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Terminators are NOT tanky.

Sure they are.

 slip wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Terminators are NOT tanky.

Sure they are.

Since when is T4 2+/5++ for 35pt "tanky"? T4 2+/3++ for 45pt is slightly tankier, but not by a lot, and they're still a slow unit (6+D6 on a turn they can't charge a unit)

 slip wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Terminators are NOT tanky.

Sure they are.

For the points, Tactical Marines can take more wounds to anything outside AP3 outside of cover.
You really think tanky is the correct word?

 Wolfblade wrote:
MANz have more use against non ID attacks, and have a shooting attack (compared to TH/SS termies).

Obviously termies have better survivability vs AP2/ID attacks, but outside of that it takes more to bring a MAN down, and TH/SS termies have no ranged attack. It's a little foolish to compare MANz to assault termies though, MANz are not a dedicated assault unit like TH/SS termies are. They're more of a general purpose unit like regular termies, and are only good in the ork codex because a nob squad is just as expensive if given PKs and 'eavy armor (iirc)

I'm not saying that MANz are better or worse, I'm saying that assault termies have utility against them.

It's worse than you remember, a Nob with just a PK is more expensive than a Meganob.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
MANz have more use against non ID attacks, and have a shooting attack (compared to TH/SS termies).

Obviously termies have better survivability vs AP2/ID attacks, but outside of that it takes more to bring a MAN down, and TH/SS termies have no ranged attack. It's a little foolish to compare MANz to assault termies though, MANz are not a dedicated assault unit like TH/SS termies are. They're more of a general purpose unit like regular termies, and are only good in the ork codex because a nob squad is just as expensive if given PKs and 'eavy armor (iirc)

I'm not saying that MANz are better or worse, I'm saying that assault termies have utility against them.

And I'm saying a better comparison is the tac termie, not the assault termie because manz and assault termies have different roles.

 Wolfblade wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
MANz have more use against non ID attacks, and have a shooting attack (compared to TH/SS termies).

Obviously termies have better survivability vs AP2/ID attacks, but outside of that it takes more to bring a MAN down, and TH/SS termies have no ranged attack. It's a little foolish to compare MANz to assault termies though, MANz are not a dedicated assault unit like TH/SS termies are. They're more of a general purpose unit like regular termies, and are only good in the ork codex because a nob squad is just as expensive if given PKs and 'eavy armor (iirc)

I'm not saying that MANz are better or worse, I'm saying that assault termies have utility against them.

And I'm saying a better comparison is the tac termie, not the assault termie because manz and assault termies have different roles.

Again - I'm NOT COMPARING THEM. I'm pointing out that assault termies have utility, and there are reasons for an Ork player to be concerned by them. Okay?
(Also, if we do compare Tac termies, they still win - Meganob damage is effectively doubled, but Tac damage doesn't decrease, and a unit of 5 is 25 points cheaper for the Tacs.)

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
MANz have more use against non ID attacks, and have a shooting attack (compared to TH/SS termies).

Obviously termies have better survivability vs AP2/ID attacks, but outside of that it takes more to bring a MAN down, and TH/SS termies have no ranged attack. It's a little foolish to compare MANz to assault termies though, MANz are not a dedicated assault unit like TH/SS termies are. They're more of a general purpose unit like regular termies, and are only good in the ork codex because a nob squad is just as expensive if given PKs and 'eavy armor (iirc)

I'm not saying that MANz are better or worse, I'm saying that assault termies have utility against them.

And I'm saying a better comparison is the tac termie, not the assault termie because manz and assault termies have different roles.

Again - I'm NOT COMPARING THEM. I'm pointing out that assault termies have utility, and there are reasons for an Ork player to be concerned by them. Okay?
(Also, if we do compare Tac termies, they still win - Meganob damage is effectively doubled, but Tac damage doesn't decrease, and a unit of 5 is 25 points cheaper for the Tacs.)

However MANz have 2 wounds, vs the termies one, meaning outside of ID/AP2 wounds MANz are tougher.

 Wolfblade wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
MANz have more use against non ID attacks, and have a shooting attack (compared to TH/SS termies).

Obviously termies have better survivability vs AP2/ID attacks, but outside of that it takes more to bring a MAN down, and TH/SS termies have no ranged attack. It's a little foolish to compare MANz to assault termies though, MANz are not a dedicated assault unit like TH/SS termies are. They're more of a general purpose unit like regular termies, and are only good in the ork codex because a nob squad is just as expensive if given PKs and 'eavy armor (iirc)

I'm not saying that MANz are better or worse, I'm saying that assault termies have utility against them.

And I'm saying a better comparison is the tac termie, not the assault termie because manz and assault termies have different roles.

Again - I'm NOT COMPARING THEM. I'm pointing out that assault termies have utility, and there are reasons for an Ork player to be concerned by them. Okay?
(Also, if we do compare Tac termies, they still win - Meganob damage is effectively doubled, but Tac damage doesn't decrease, and a unit of 5 is 25 points cheaper for the Tacs.)

However MANz have 2 wounds, vs the termies one, meaning outside of ID/AP2 wounds MANz are tougher.

What is your point? I'm not saying that Termies or Assault Termies are better against every unit in the game - I'm saying that they're better against MANz.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You know how much they cost, right? They're not going to make their points back because of how much points they take up.
You're nearing 450 points. That's almost half of a 1000 point game. You have little objective takers, and little offense because you put your eggs in that one gak basket. So in your smaller game, where a Terminator is still less durable than the equivalent price of Marines, you're going to lose a bunch of points.

And it isn't always easy to immobilize a Land Raider? Really? Outside of it having a large footprint and knocking itself out on terrain? Literally every codex has easy ways to knock it out. Even Orks can run up with Tank Bustaz, knock a HP off or two, and throw a Melta Bomb on it.

Not much is needed to invest in that, and they were likely doing it anyway.

If you were reading the thread you'd know that I know how much they cost, because I'm the one that posted their actual base points cost in the first place. If you'd read the thread maybe you'd be willing to aknowledge that reliably getting your points back isn't the only, or perhaps even the best metric to judge the effectiveness of units in a game that isn't won or lost on the points value of enemy models removed. If you'd read the thread you'd also know that I've already stated that exposing these units to equivalent points worth of enemy at any one given moment in time is likely not the proper application of these units. If you were reading the thread properly instead of just waiting your turn to say "no, Terminators suck. No, Land Raiders suck. No, Terminators in Land Raiders suck", you'd see that I didn't say that they weren't easilly immobilized generally, I said there's situations in which they would not be easily immobilized.

Saying every codex has a counter to it isn't saying anything. That could be said of almost every unit in the game. Are you likely to face that counter in most competitive and even TAC lists? Yes, of course. We've covered that, and discussed that effective use of these units requires that you do not needlessly expose them to that, and that there's far from any guarantee you're not going to get punked. Are you going to face that counter every turn of every game regardless of what else you've got in your army and how you play the game? No.

News Flash. No one is saying Terminators are game breaking. No one even said they're a good choice. No said they're anything but a bad value for the points.

We're just saying there are situations where if they are used appropriately and with skill, that they can be effective, and neither is THE WORST unit in the game.

A few people in this thread seem to have lost the plot on that, and would rather attribute a position to myself or others that they haven't taken just, for the sake of continuing to attack and argue. It's more than a little tiresome. On that note, I'm not going to take further part in this thread. I have better things to do with my time. Bye!

 BBAP wrote:


They're WS4 Guardsmen with a Storm Shield and power sword. Land Raiders do indeed suck, but they have two twin-linked lascannons on them and thus can kill things. Unlike Crusaders

I've had some good results with crusaders. They're really great vs mellee armies. Add in a priest and you've got a 3++ re-rollable relatively cheap unit that can tarpit anything. Last game they've killed a dp on the charge and than swept a squad of csm and routed 2 squads of chosen.

 koooaei wrote:

 BBAP wrote:


They're WS4 Guardsmen with a Storm Shield and power sword. Land Raiders do indeed suck, but they have two twin-linked lascannons on them and thus can kill things. Unlike Crusaders

I've had some good results with crusaders. They're really great vs mellee armies. Add in a priest and you've got a 3++ re-rollable relatively cheap unit that can tarpit anything. Last game they've killed a dp on the charge and than swept a squad of csm and routed 2 squads of chosen.

The entire point of Crusaders is tanking wounds with the Storm Shield while the more killy DCAs and/or Arco-Flagellants kill stuff. Crusaders aren't meant to be killing much of anything on their own.

 Pouncey wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 BBAP wrote:


They're WS4 Guardsmen with a Storm Shield and power sword. Land Raiders do indeed suck, but they have two twin-linked lascannons on them and thus can kill things. Unlike Crusaders

I've had some good results with crusaders. They're really great vs mellee armies. Add in a priest and you've got a 3++ re-rollable relatively cheap unit that can tarpit anything. Last game they've killed a dp on the charge and than swept a squad of csm and routed 2 squads of chosen.

The entire point of Crusaders is tanking wounds with the Storm Shield while the more killy DCAs and/or Arco-Flagellants kill stuff. Crusaders aren't meant to be killing much of anything on their own.

Yeah, but you still do get a number of wounds in with ap3 and zealot. Even more so with inquisitor crusaders that have s4 ap2 from axes. Well, at least HAD.

 koooaei wrote:
Yeah, but you still do get a number of wounds in with ap3 and zealot. Even more so with inquisitor crusaders that have s4 ap2 from axes. Well, at least HAD.

Of course. They'll definitely dish out some wounds, but they're not the unit's main source of damage output.

I find it odd that anyone would consider a Battle Conclave to be a terrible unit when Repentia exist within the same Codex though. Surely a literal suicide-by-battle unit that lives up to its lore would be worse by default?

Repentia are harder to use but they're kinda like rough riders in my eyes. Supposed to be a cheap counter-charge/distraction one-shot unit that can delete an intended target and than die scoring an objective or something. Repentia are noticeably harder to use on their own simply due to speed and ini1. But a combination with celestine + auto-cast priest did work. They could tank a ton of damage in mellee with 2+ re-rollable or 3+ re-rollable backed up with 3+++ from a squad leader and than perform their 20-odd s6 ap2 attacks with hatred.

They were a good area-denying tool vs mellee-oriented units without much s6+ ap2. And they kinda had a place in this role in a msu rhino sob army. You moved forward, disembarked, shot, killed something and than the enemy had to decide weather he wants to engage the sisters and than loose a squad to repentia counter-charge or try to avoid this 18"- ish protection bauble. It's not always an option to shoot them down - not everyone has enough mobility or barrage weapons to shoot a small squad behind all this rhinos. At least that's a problem for orks w/o lobbas, csm, daemonkin, some daemon builds and they even pose some problems to IK as those s6 attacks have armorbane. They don't really work vs shooty armies and that's why people tend to disregard them.

The most useless unit I ever saw was the old Tyranid Biovore. It literally just pooped spores that scattered horrendously and then wandered the battlefield doing absolutely nothing while they were casually avoided.

 koooaei wrote:
Repentia are harder to use but they're kinda like rough riders in my eyes. Supposed to be a cheap counter-charge/distraction one-shot unit that can delete an intended target and than die scoring an objective or something. Repentia are noticeably harder to use on their own simply due to speed and ini1. But a combination with celestine + auto-cast priest did work. They could tank a ton of damage in mellee with 2+ re-rollable or 3+ re-rollable backed up with 3+++ from a squad leader and than perform their 20-odd s6 ap2 attacks with hatred.

They were a good area-denying tool vs mellee-oriented units without much s6+ ap2. And they kinda had a place in this role in a msu rhino sob army. You moved forward, disembarked, shot, killed something and than the enemy had to decide weather he wants to engage the sisters and than loose a squad to repentia counter-charge or try to avoid this 18"- ish protection bauble. It's not always an option to shoot them down - not everyone has enough mobility or barrage weapons to shoot a small squad behind all this rhinos. At least that's a problem for orks w/o lobbas, csm, daemonkin, some daemon builds and they even pose some problems to IK as those s6 attacks have armorbane. They don't really work vs shooty armies and that's why people tend to disregard them.

Fair enough. Thanks for the explanation. : D

I would argue that Ork Kommandos and Ork Flash Gitz are the winners of this one.

Kommandos are 10pts a model, granted those 4pts more then a boy buys you Stealth, Move through cover and infiltrate; but your still using an Ork boy so how scary is it? Think of it as marginally tougher boyz that cost almost twice as much to use. They would have a use in the game if they could assault from infiltrate or if they had special weapons that were cheap...they don't have either. Taking a single Kommando with a Burna costs 25pts, keep in mind that a Burna Boy only costs 16pts.

And in my opinion the winner!

FLASHGITZ!

22pts a model for a Nob with a S5 AP(D6) Assault 3 24in ranged gun.

You get Gitfindaz which are great, if GW hadn't ruined their usefulness with the caveat that they have to stand still to use them.

6+ Armor with no option to upgrade, every model comes with a Bosspole because.....yeah this is just stupid.

LD7 so when they lose 2 models they will use Mob rule (They will have a 50/50 to fail because they won't have enough models) and probably run away.

The only realistic way to field these guys is to put them into a Battlewagon but then you have drawn a GIANT target on that Battlewagon because you've invested so many points into a single unit which at the best of times can put out 15 S5 shots at BS2 so 5 AP(D6) S5 shots.

You will never see these models in any kind of tournament that is competitive, you will only ever see them in friendly games where the Ork player just wants to use them because he spent a hundred Dollars to field them.

I use Flash Gitz almost every game I play my Orks and they reliably do decent work. I like them a lot more than Shoota Boyz and their volume of fire makes up for the RNG AP. Great against bikes which declare their jink before the AP roll so they either risk getting their armor melted by a low AP roll or they ended up jinking against AP6. Battlewagon is a must for them but honestly I like Battlewagons so they are commonly used in my lists. Great synergy with Killkannons which the 12 model capacity is a non factor for Gitz which max at 10 models per unit.

 Vankraken wrote:
I use Flash Gitz almost every game I play my Orks and they reliably do decent work. I like them a lot more than Shoota Boyz and their volume of fire makes up for the RNG AP. Great against bikes which declare their jink before the AP roll so they either risk getting their armor melted by a low AP roll or they ended up jinking against AP6. Battlewagon is a must for them but honestly I like Battlewagons so they are commonly used in my lists. Great synergy with Killkannons which the 12 model capacity is a non factor for Gitz which max at 10 models per unit.

10 gitz with a Killkannon BW w/Ram,4(rokkitz/Big shootas) = 385pts. If you fire the Kill Kannon you have to snapfire your Gitz (Unless they changed that)

in a 1,500pt game I would focus fire AP1-2 weapons at that thing and kill it turn 1 or turn 2 and against an AP1 weapon it would be +3 to explode so a 4+ (50% chance) you would lose 4-5wounds on those guyz. And on a turn that they get in range to use those weapons they are getting 10 S5 hits. Against non-jinking SM Bikers thats only 5 wounds with a 50% chance of ignoring their armor.

You might be able to use them but against a competent opponent you will lose every time because they don't have the range, accuracy or durability to matter.

Can I put forth the Tzaangors from Wrath of Magnus?

You have a unit that costs *MORE* than the average Ork Boy, but is conceivably worse in most every way that counts.

No ranged weapons unless you pay more to replace a CCW with a laspistol (why?).
No Furious Charge.
No Dedicated Transport options.
No "cheap" transports for them otherwise (what are you going to do, jam them in a Land Raider?)
Their Sergeant cannot take ANY options or special melee weapons.

What do you get for it? A 6+ Invulnerable Save.

But wait, there's more!

They have a formation. "A" formation, that is. You get to take at least three of these units of misfits, and a Sorcerer with the Mark of Tzeentch and in exchange, they get Fleet, and the Tzaangors themselves get Run and Charge...but not any characters that have joined them, such as the Sorcerer that the formation requires. Their only real advantage is that they have a pseudo-Furious Charge that isn't technically Furious Charge and thus works despite Disordered Charges.

Oh, and they can reroll saving throws of 1 if you take 9 of these units! Re-roll 1s to get that 6+ Invul as you're rained on from above by Smart Missiles and Wyverns! I always wanted to spend a minimum of 540 points on non-obsec chaff that can't even include any anti-tank, that has to conditionally roll on its charge to be able to even glance a Rhino!

Really, the "best" thing about the formation is the remaining 6 slots could be filled with Spawn, except these Spawn also have to take Mark of Tzeentch. At least they get to re-roll the odd 1 for a save now and then. And then a Thousand Sons player realizes any of the other 8 Legions could just buy a single Spawn and fill out their Auxiliary choice like that!

Seriously man. Tzaangors are cattle for the slaughter.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
I use Flash Gitz almost every game I play my Orks and they reliably do decent work. I like them a lot more than Shoota Boyz and their volume of fire makes up for the RNG AP. Great against bikes which declare their jink before the AP roll so they either risk getting their armor melted by a low AP roll or they ended up jinking against AP6. Battlewagon is a must for them but honestly I like Battlewagons so they are commonly used in my lists. Great synergy with Killkannons which the 12 model capacity is a non factor for Gitz which max at 10 models per unit.

10 gitz with a Killkannon BW w/Ram,4(rokkitz/Big shootas) = 385pts. If you fire the Kill Kannon you have to snapfire your Gitz (Unless they changed that)

in a 1,500pt game I would focus fire AP1-2 weapons at that thing and kill it turn 1 or turn 2 and against an AP1 weapon it would be +3 to explode so a 4+ (50% chance) you would lose 4-5wounds on those guyz. And on a turn that they get in range to use those weapons they are getting 10 S5 hits. Against non-jinking SM Bikers thats only 5 wounds with a 50% chance of ignoring their armor.

You might be able to use them but against a competent opponent you will lose every time because they don't have the range, accuracy or durability to matter.

I don't put rokkits on the wagon if it has a killkannon and also your focusing the Battlewagon with Flash Gitz inside which means your ignoring all the melee units zooming up the field to smash face. Gitz work when they are in a hard to crack shell while the rest of the army are higher threat targets. I tend to run Blitz Brigades so I have 5 Battlewagons which means your having to pick which AV14 box you want to crack open and the gitz wagon is usually the lowest priority of the 5. Gitz don't have a 1 turn payoff but given time they work their magic and take chunks out of the enemy and stick around until turn 3 or 4 where they have done their damage and still have some punch left in them. Are there better options such as tankbusta or bike spam? Sure but I don't feel like I'm gimping myself by taking them because they serve the roll of fire support against high armor targets. Kommandos, Stormboyz, Deff Dreads, Half the Mek Guns, standard Nobz, Burna Bommers, and even Shoota Boyz tend to not be very useful to me and that is just listing entries in the Ork codex. Gitz are far from useless and in no way deserve "The Worst Unit" title.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Can I put forth the Tzaangors from Wrath of Magnus?
You have a unit that costs *MORE* than the average Ork Boy, but is conceivably worse in most every way that counts.

Their main advantage is that they're one of the cheapest more effective troops to field instead of overpriced 1000 sons. And they're not entirely bad. 6++ indeed makes them 1/6 more durable than ork boyz and they have better ld. Fit for the task of a min unit in a cad to sit on the back objective all game. And they can probably even chop down an odd sm bike or two.

Kinda like grots. If you take grots on their own, they're hugely overpriced. 3 ppm for ld5 t2 s2 dudes w/o armor guided by a 10 pt boy that grants...ld7 to the squad. When ig can get conscripts with t3 s3 and 5+ armor for all the same 3 ppm and they can become ld9 from a commissar or zealot + all the associated priest buffs for 25 pt. Conscripts compared to grots are like marines compared to imperial guardsmen. If imperial guardsmen cost 14 ppm. And yet grots are not a bad unit. They're just used for another purpose and are easier to get than conscripts.

Tzaangors get a 3++ under Forewarning, in an army with access to both the Div table and Warp Fate. So that's potentially a 7pt Obsec model, with a rerollable 3++ and a Character to take challenges. If you're lucky, with Rending attacks from Misfortune.

Regarding their Formation, six MSU Spawn are a 204pt tax for Favored of Tzeentch. So those Tzaangors can GTG for a rerollable 2+, protected from Flamers by T4 and a 6++.

Telekine Dome also stacks with their Mark, so you then might have Ork Boyz + MSU Spawn with a 4++ (rerolling 1's) and a 4+ FNP from Endurance.

They're almost certainly worth the extra 10pts over Marked Cultists, who are mandatory in a TS CAD. Just don't expect a miracle, you know?

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
Termagants need babysitters. Their IB means they fall back if you don't dedicate a synapse unit to look after them.

Rippers work fine by themselves. Most of the time they'll inflict a couple of wounds to themselves, which stops once they're down to a single model. It'll probably take a couple of turns before they lose a single base.
Otherwise they'll try to charge enemies in range, which isn't a problem if there are no enemies in range for them to charge.

Different meta I guess, they are literally pointless (more so than anything else Ive play or seen play) in my area.

It really depends on what you are doing with your list. If you are doing a classic nid horde with lots of gaunts then rippers are pointless.
If you are doing one of the flyer heavy builds that nids need to stand a chance at tournaments then rippers have a place as cheap troops (mucolids are better in this role) and as backfield objective campers (mucolids cannot do this role). Ripper vs mucolid vs a mix of both is basically a matter of personal taste.

To the point of the thread, pyrovores as second worse in the game and malceptors as the worst. Its like someone looked at the pyrovore and said at least it can't get worse and gw tool it as a challenge,

Tzaangors are fine if used in their formation.

They can run and charge with fleet, hit like a Assault Marine (WS4, S4, I4, 3 attacks) on the charge most of the time, which isn't that impressive untill you remember that they are 7 ppm (never *ever* spend 1 ppm on that autopistol!), then add the fact that they belong in one of the most powerful psychic armies in the game for some sweet buffs. (Like a 3++ due to MoT).

20 Tzaangors (140 pts) from that formation would rip trough 30 Slugga Boyz /w pimped out Nob (220 pts?) point for point on the charge (which they are likely to get.)
(60 attacks, 30 hits, 15 wounds, 13 dead boyz. 16 boyz and nob retaliates. boyz deal ~5,42 wounds, Nob deals 1,38 wounds = 6 dead Tzaangors. Tzaangors win by 7, Orks suffer more casualties due to Mobrule.)

That mandatory Sorcerer is best used with a Jumppack with some spawns from the same formation (both have fleet), or simply put him in a different unit.

If nothing else, they're a 7 ppm troop choice in an army, where the second cheapest troop choice is 23 ppm.

If a unit saves wounds 1 in 6 times, but costs 16% more, it's just as tough point for point. Arguably such a unit is actually not as tough, when you account for buffs and the reliability of obtaining them. For example, you can give Orks Eavy Armor or a Painboy. Either option is cheaper and more reliable than paying for a Sorcerer and hoping for a good Blessing. It's the old "Banshees+Doom" dependency issue of 4e Eldar with an added random chance you don't even get Doom.

The thing is 1k Sons by nature don't get a lot of buffs, especially since they need all the WC they can get to compensate for not having enough guns. You only yet Divination on Exalted Sorcerers or Ahriman. Add the fact you use up one or your rolls on Lore of Tzeentch, meaning you also lose access to Divination Psychic Focus, so you're spending 200 pts minimum for the spell re-roll and for a second chance to get Forewarning. Meanwhile, Warp Fate only works on the Psyker's unit, so using it means you no longer get to Run and Charge.

You could ally in Daemons...but at that point, you might as well play Daemons, since Blue Horrors might as well be T4 against Scatter Lasers, Venoms, Grav, and they get a 5++, reroll 1s without a formation, thus keeping Obsec, provide Warp Charge, split when they die, have a passable Primaris, Deep Strike...

The only bonuses you get that matter for running a 1k Sons detachment is access to the Astral Grimoire, and Seers Bane for the odd falcon punch. In either case, you're probably better off using a standalone formation to get some extra HQs, and not one that revolves around mass Tzaangors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or some math: For the same cost as a single ML 3 Spell Familiar Exalted Sorcerer, you can run 2 Heralds and 2 units of 11 Blue Horrors. For the cost of 2 such Sorcerers, you can run 4 Heralds and 4 Horror units, AND you can farm off 3 of those Heralds into Heralds Anarchic and get 3 more Warp Charge for free. Even with without re-rolling to manifest, that's the almost same chance of chances to get Forewarning (you can get duplicates alas), 15 Warp Charge versus 6, and actual board presence. Not to mention these two options are in the same book!

For the cost of 1 tzaangor you can run 2 s2 t2 ld5 no-save grots. Yay?..
Tzaangors are not supposed to be a worthy mellee unit. They're a cheap fodder/troop tax unit. And they're arguably better than tzeench cultists in this regard. Cause you get +1T for 2 pts if you also get a sarge for ld8. But if you forego the sarge, it's gona be +1T for 1 ppm over cultists. That's good.

 MagicJuggler wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or some math: For the same cost as a single ML 3 Spell Familiar Exalted Sorcerer, you can run 2 Heralds and 2 units of 11 Blue Horrors. For the cost of 2 such Sorcerers, you can run 4 Heralds and 4 Horror units, AND you can farm off 3 of those Heralds into Heralds Anarchic and get 3 more Warp Charge for free. Even with without re-rolling to manifest, that's the almost same chance of chances to get Forewarning (you can get duplicates alas), 15 Warp Charge versus 6, and actual board presence. Not to mention these two options are in the same book!

So go play Daemons then?

I don't mind all the WAAC-players jumping ship frankly, I'm tired of seeing so called "Thousand Sons"-lists which contains only 25% actual Thousand Sons, and the rest in some sort of allies (Tzeentch Daemons, other Chaos Legions, etc.)

Sister of Battle Celestians are pretty bad. S3 T3 unit that seems like it's intended to be an assault unit - their act of faith is to get Furious Charge - but no option to take pistol+ccw - instead they're armed with bolters. No assault transport options in the list, either.

I would also like to cast a vote for the big huge khorne skull crusher thing, with the big tanks of skulls on its back, has tank treads and a weird upper body with arms and axes

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I would also like to cast a vote for the big huge khorne skull crusher thing, with the big tanks of skulls on its back, has tank treads and a weird upper body with arms and axes

OHHH... that thing is bad. Is it land raider bad? Maybe!

Martel732 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I would also like to cast a vote for the big huge khorne skull crusher thing, with the big tanks of skulls on its back, has tank treads and a weird upper body with arms and axes

OHHH... that thing is bad. Is it land raider bad? Maybe!

Lord of skulls that's it!

 MinscS2 wrote:
Tzaangors are fine if used in their formation.

They can run and charge with fleet, hit like a Assault Marine (WS4, S4, I4, 3 attacks) on the charge most of the time, which isn't that impressive untill you remember that they are 7 ppm (never *ever* spend 1 ppm on that autopistol!), then add the fact that they belong in one of the most powerful psychic armies in the game for some sweet buffs. (Like a 3++ due to MoT).

20 Tzaangors (140 pts) from that formation would rip trough 30 Slugga Boyz /w pimped out Nob (220 pts?) point for point on the charge (which they are likely to get.)
(60 attacks, 30 hits, 15 wounds, 13 dead boyz. 16 boyz and nob retaliates. boyz deal ~5,42 wounds, Nob deals 1,38 wounds = 6 dead Tzaangors. Tzaangors win by 7, Orks suffer more casualties due to Mobrule.)

That mandatory Sorcerer is best used with a Jumppack with some spawns from the same formation (both have fleet), or simply put him in a different unit.

If nothing else, they're a 7 ppm troop choice in an army, where the second cheapest troop choice is 23 ppm.

Your math is bad. The Sluggaboyz will get 2 Wounds in Overwatch first, meaning 11 wounds on the boyz. Your math on the Boyz' wounds was already low, and on top of that two more boyz means 7.5 wounds, plus the Nob dealing exactly 1 wound. The final result is 11 wounds on the boyz, 10.5 wounds on the Tzaangors.

Also, you're assuming that the Tzaangors have their formation bonus, aren't charging through terrain, and that the Orks don't have *any* bonuses. (Keep in mind, Ork Boyz can run and charge with psuedo-fleet whenever they want.)

If we flip the script, 20 slugga boys vs 30 Tzaangors, the Slugga boys will cause 3 wounds with shooting, charge, suffer 12 wounds, and then inflict 7 wounds - Technically a loss by 2 wounds in total, but with 120pts of models vs 210. 30 boys vs 30 Tzaangors, the Boyz will kick the Tzaangors up and down the street when they charge.

Since you didn't compare them in a vacuum and assumed a bunch of things (you can't play the what-if-game in a comparison), let's just pretend that there's a Chaos Rhino with Dirge Caster nearby...
Yes there might be terrain in the way, and the boyz might have a painboy in them, and the tzaangors might have a 3++, but for the sake of the comparison, keep it simple.

It's true that my math was off though, I forgot that boys are A2, so those 16 boyz would deal 10 wounds and not 5,42, so they would kill 11 Tzaangors in return (but still loose, albeit barely.)

WIth that said, you get 30 Tzaangors with a Twistbray for the same points as 30 Slugga Boyz with kitted out Nob, so I'm not sure why I compared 20 Tzaangors to 30 boyz in the first place.

 Vankraken wrote:


I don't put rokkits on the wagon if it has a killkannon and also your focusing the Battlewagon with Flash Gitz inside which means your ignoring all the melee units zooming up the field to smash face. Gitz work when they are in a hard to crack shell while the rest of the army are higher threat targets. I tend to run Blitz Brigades so I have 5 Battlewagons which means your having to pick which AV14 box you want to crack open and the gitz wagon is usually the lowest priority of the 5. Gitz don't have a 1 turn payoff but given time they work their magic and take chunks out of the enemy and stick around until turn 3 or 4 where they have done their damage and still have some punch left in them. Are there better options such as tankbusta or bike spam? Sure but I don't feel like I'm gimping myself by taking them because they serve the roll of fire support against high armor targets. Kommandos, Stormboyz, Deff Dreads, Half the Mek Guns, standard Nobz, Burna Bommers, and even Shoota Boyz tend to not be very useful to me and that is just listing entries in the Ork codex. Gitz are far from useless and in no way deserve "The Worst Unit" title.

if you are taking a Blitz brigade with your flash gitz that means your spending 385pts for the Gitz with their wagon and 440pts (Minimum) for those other 4 wagonz. Also if you don't take at least 1 weapon extra your going to lose your Kill Kannon when you get weapon destroyed. So lets do the math here. If you equip every wagon with 4 weapons and a ram each and give the gitz their wagon with zero weapons (for what ever reason) that means before you buy anything else your spending 900pts on the wagonz and gitz. leaving you with 600pts to buy Boyz for the remaining wagonz. if you equip each boyz squad with a Nob/PK your going to have 18boyz with a Nob/PK in 4 wagonz and 1 wagon of gitz in a killkannon wagon.

I would ignore the gitz for 1-2 turns because their damage output is minimal and they aren't scary. When they do get in range I can either hit them with Flanking anti-tank weapons or flamer weapons. For 22pts gitz suck. Realistically for those 22pts your paying for a single S5 Ap(D6) shot every turn. So anyway I still vote gitz.

 MinscS2 wrote:
Since you didn't compare them in a vacuum and assumed a bunch of things (you can't play the what-if-game in a comparison), let's just pretend that there's a Chaos Rhino with Dirge Caster nearby...
Yes there might be terrain in the way, and the boyz might have a painboy in them, and the tzaangors might have a 3++, but for the sake of the comparison, keep it simple.

It's true that my math was off though, I forgot that boys are A2, so those 16 boyz would deal 10 wounds and not 5,42, so they would kill 11 Tzaangors in return (but still loose, albeit barely.)

WIth that said, you get 30 Tzaangors with a Twistbray for the same points as 30 Slugga Boyz with kitted out Nob, so I'm not sure why I compared 20 Tzaangors to 30 boyz in the first place.

You know that Boys are S3 normally too, right? (Furious Charge makes them S4 a lot of the time.) If they were 1a base, they'd only deal around 4 wounds.
When compared point to point, though, it pretty much comes down to who gets the charge/has advantage from outside sources. (Though, when Tzaangors win the Orks take a couple extra wounds, when Orks win the Tzaangors break and run.) Orks are nowhere near the worst unit in the Codex, they're actually pretty decent internally, so that means Tzaangors aren't the worst choice either.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or some math: For the same cost as a single ML 3 Spell Familiar Exalted Sorcerer, you can run 2 Heralds and 2 units of 11 Blue Horrors. For the cost of 2 such Sorcerers, you can run 4 Heralds and 4 Horror units, AND you can farm off 3 of those Heralds into Heralds Anarchic and get 3 more Warp Charge for free. Even with without re-rolling to manifest, that's the almost same chance of chances to get Forewarning (you can get duplicates alas), 15 Warp Charge versus 6, and actual board presence. Not to mention these two options are in the same book!

So go play Daemons then?

I don't mind all the WAAC-players jumping ship frankly, I'm tired of seeing so called "Thousand Sons"-lists which contains only 25% actual Thousand Sons, and the rest in some sort of allies (Tzeentch Daemons, other Chaos Legions, etc.)

I remember a tournament-winning Ork list. The only Ork detachment was Mogrok's Bossboyz, and everything else was Daemons, Fateweaver et al.

It's bad internal balance that leads to possibilities like running Typhus and Plague Zombies just to unlock Magnus.

 Vankraken wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
I use Flash Gitz almost every game I play my Orks and they reliably do decent work. I like them a lot more than Shoota Boyz and their volume of fire makes up for the RNG AP. Great against bikes which declare their jink before the AP roll so they either risk getting their armor melted by a low AP roll or they ended up jinking against AP6. Battlewagon is a must for them but honestly I like Battlewagons so they are commonly used in my lists. Great synergy with Killkannons which the 12 model capacity is a non factor for Gitz which max at 10 models per unit.

10 gitz with a Killkannon BW w/Ram,4(rokkitz/Big shootas) = 385pts. If you fire the Kill Kannon you have to snapfire your Gitz (Unless they changed that)

in a 1,500pt game I would focus fire AP1-2 weapons at that thing and kill it turn 1 or turn 2 and against an AP1 weapon it would be +3 to explode so a 4+ (50% chance) you would lose 4-5wounds on those guyz. And on a turn that they get in range to use those weapons they are getting 10 S5 hits. Against non-jinking SM Bikers thats only 5 wounds with a 50% chance of ignoring their armor.

You might be able to use them but against a competent opponent you will lose every time because they don't have the range, accuracy or durability to matter.

I don't put rokkits on the wagon if it has a killkannon and also your focusing the Battlewagon with Flash Gitz inside which means your ignoring all the melee units zooming up the field to smash face. Gitz work when they are in a hard to crack shell while the rest of the army are higher threat targets. I tend to run Blitz Brigades so I have 5 Battlewagons which means your having to pick which AV14 box you want to crack open and the gitz wagon is usually the lowest priority of the 5. Gitz don't have a 1 turn payoff but given time they work their magic and take chunks out of the enemy and stick around until turn 3 or 4 where they have done their damage and still have some punch left in them. Are there better options such as tankbusta or bike spam? Sure but I don't feel like I'm gimping myself by taking them because they serve the roll of fire support against high armor targets. Kommandos, Stormboyz, Deff Dreads, Half the Mek Guns, standard Nobz, Burna Bommers, and even Shoota Boyz tend to not be very useful to me and that is just listing entries in the Ork codex. Gitz are far from useless and in no way deserve "The Worst Unit" title.

You can get a wraithknight or a Titan with points to spare. Hell you can take the itc stompa at that price point. Point for point I'd take anything else in the game. You wanna talk options or stats or whatever, the grots would be the worst unit in the game sure. I'd still take 385 points of grots over that set up. If it's a battle wagon and grots, hell, it's no contest.

You are right that there are other bad units. Shoota boys and mek guns are up there. Kommandos definitely. The only units worth taking in the codex are tankbustas, MANz, war bikes, deffkoptas, grots, lootas, and battle wagons.