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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Terminators are NOT tanky.

Sure they are.

 slip wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Terminators are NOT tanky.

Sure they are.

Since when is T4 2+/5++ for 35pt "tanky"? T4 2+/3++ for 45pt is slightly tankier, but not by a lot, and they're still a slow unit (6+D6 on a turn they can't charge a unit)

 slip wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Terminators are NOT tanky.

Sure they are.

For the points, Tactical Marines can take more wounds to anything outside AP3 outside of cover.
You really think tanky is the correct word?

 Wolfblade wrote:
MANz have more use against non ID attacks, and have a shooting attack (compared to TH/SS termies).

Obviously termies have better survivability vs AP2/ID attacks, but outside of that it takes more to bring a MAN down, and TH/SS termies have no ranged attack. It's a little foolish to compare MANz to assault termies though, MANz are not a dedicated assault unit like TH/SS termies are. They're more of a general purpose unit like regular termies, and are only good in the ork codex because a nob squad is just as expensive if given PKs and 'eavy armor (iirc)

I'm not saying that MANz are better or worse, I'm saying that assault termies have utility against them.

It's worse than you remember, a Nob with just a PK is more expensive than a Meganob.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
MANz have more use against non ID attacks, and have a shooting attack (compared to TH/SS termies).

Obviously termies have better survivability vs AP2/ID attacks, but outside of that it takes more to bring a MAN down, and TH/SS termies have no ranged attack. It's a little foolish to compare MANz to assault termies though, MANz are not a dedicated assault unit like TH/SS termies are. They're more of a general purpose unit like regular termies, and are only good in the ork codex because a nob squad is just as expensive if given PKs and 'eavy armor (iirc)

I'm not saying that MANz are better or worse, I'm saying that assault termies have utility against them.

And I'm saying a better comparison is the tac termie, not the assault termie because manz and assault termies have different roles.

 Wolfblade wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
MANz have more use against non ID attacks, and have a shooting attack (compared to TH/SS termies).

Obviously termies have better survivability vs AP2/ID attacks, but outside of that it takes more to bring a MAN down, and TH/SS termies have no ranged attack. It's a little foolish to compare MANz to assault termies though, MANz are not a dedicated assault unit like TH/SS termies are. They're more of a general purpose unit like regular termies, and are only good in the ork codex because a nob squad is just as expensive if given PKs and 'eavy armor (iirc)

I'm not saying that MANz are better or worse, I'm saying that assault termies have utility against them.

And I'm saying a better comparison is the tac termie, not the assault termie because manz and assault termies have different roles.

Again - I'm NOT COMPARING THEM. I'm pointing out that assault termies have utility, and there are reasons for an Ork player to be concerned by them. Okay?
(Also, if we do compare Tac termies, they still win - Meganob damage is effectively doubled, but Tac damage doesn't decrease, and a unit of 5 is 25 points cheaper for the Tacs.)

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
MANz have more use against non ID attacks, and have a shooting attack (compared to TH/SS termies).

Obviously termies have better survivability vs AP2/ID attacks, but outside of that it takes more to bring a MAN down, and TH/SS termies have no ranged attack. It's a little foolish to compare MANz to assault termies though, MANz are not a dedicated assault unit like TH/SS termies are. They're more of a general purpose unit like regular termies, and are only good in the ork codex because a nob squad is just as expensive if given PKs and 'eavy armor (iirc)

I'm not saying that MANz are better or worse, I'm saying that assault termies have utility against them.

And I'm saying a better comparison is the tac termie, not the assault termie because manz and assault termies have different roles.

Again - I'm NOT COMPARING THEM. I'm pointing out that assault termies have utility, and there are reasons for an Ork player to be concerned by them. Okay?
(Also, if we do compare Tac termies, they still win - Meganob damage is effectively doubled, but Tac damage doesn't decrease, and a unit of 5 is 25 points cheaper for the Tacs.)

However MANz have 2 wounds, vs the termies one, meaning outside of ID/AP2 wounds MANz are tougher.

 Wolfblade wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
MANz have more use against non ID attacks, and have a shooting attack (compared to TH/SS termies).

Obviously termies have better survivability vs AP2/ID attacks, but outside of that it takes more to bring a MAN down, and TH/SS termies have no ranged attack. It's a little foolish to compare MANz to assault termies though, MANz are not a dedicated assault unit like TH/SS termies are. They're more of a general purpose unit like regular termies, and are only good in the ork codex because a nob squad is just as expensive if given PKs and 'eavy armor (iirc)

I'm not saying that MANz are better or worse, I'm saying that assault termies have utility against them.

And I'm saying a better comparison is the tac termie, not the assault termie because manz and assault termies have different roles.

Again - I'm NOT COMPARING THEM. I'm pointing out that assault termies have utility, and there are reasons for an Ork player to be concerned by them. Okay?
(Also, if we do compare Tac termies, they still win - Meganob damage is effectively doubled, but Tac damage doesn't decrease, and a unit of 5 is 25 points cheaper for the Tacs.)

However MANz have 2 wounds, vs the termies one, meaning outside of ID/AP2 wounds MANz are tougher.

What is your point? I'm not saying that Termies or Assault Termies are better against every unit in the game - I'm saying that they're better against MANz.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You know how much they cost, right? They're not going to make their points back because of how much points they take up.
You're nearing 450 points. That's almost half of a 1000 point game. You have little objective takers, and little offense because you put your eggs in that one gak basket. So in your smaller game, where a Terminator is still less durable than the equivalent price of Marines, you're going to lose a bunch of points.

And it isn't always easy to immobilize a Land Raider? Really? Outside of it having a large footprint and knocking itself out on terrain? Literally every codex has easy ways to knock it out. Even Orks can run up with Tank Bustaz, knock a HP off or two, and throw a Melta Bomb on it.

Not much is needed to invest in that, and they were likely doing it anyway.

If you were reading the thread you'd know that I know how much they cost, because I'm the one that posted their actual base points cost in the first place. If you'd read the thread maybe you'd be willing to aknowledge that reliably getting your points back isn't the only, or perhaps even the best metric to judge the effectiveness of units in a game that isn't won or lost on the points value of enemy models removed. If you'd read the thread you'd also know that I've already stated that exposing these units to equivalent points worth of enemy at any one given moment in time is likely not the proper application of these units. If you were reading the thread properly instead of just waiting your turn to say "no, Terminators suck. No, Land Raiders suck. No, Terminators in Land Raiders suck", you'd see that I didn't say that they weren't easilly immobilized generally, I said there's situations in which they would not be easily immobilized.

Saying every codex has a counter to it isn't saying anything. That could be said of almost every unit in the game. Are you likely to face that counter in most competitive and even TAC lists? Yes, of course. We've covered that, and discussed that effective use of these units requires that you do not needlessly expose them to that, and that there's far from any guarantee you're not going to get punked. Are you going to face that counter every turn of every game regardless of what else you've got in your army and how you play the game? No.

News Flash. No one is saying Terminators are game breaking. No one even said they're a good choice. No said they're anything but a bad value for the points.

We're just saying there are situations where if they are used appropriately and with skill, that they can be effective, and neither is THE WORST unit in the game.

A few people in this thread seem to have lost the plot on that, and would rather attribute a position to myself or others that they haven't taken just, for the sake of continuing to attack and argue. It's more than a little tiresome. On that note, I'm not going to take further part in this thread. I have better things to do with my time. Bye!

 BBAP wrote:


They're WS4 Guardsmen with a Storm Shield and power sword. Land Raiders do indeed suck, but they have two twin-linked lascannons on them and thus can kill things. Unlike Crusaders

I've had some good results with crusaders. They're really great vs mellee armies. Add in a priest and you've got a 3++ re-rollable relatively cheap unit that can tarpit anything. Last game they've killed a dp on the charge and than swept a squad of csm and routed 2 squads of chosen.

 koooaei wrote:

 BBAP wrote:


They're WS4 Guardsmen with a Storm Shield and power sword. Land Raiders do indeed suck, but they have two twin-linked lascannons on them and thus can kill things. Unlike Crusaders

I've had some good results with crusaders. They're really great vs mellee armies. Add in a priest and you've got a 3++ re-rollable relatively cheap unit that can tarpit anything. Last game they've killed a dp on the charge and than swept a squad of csm and routed 2 squads of chosen.

The entire point of Crusaders is tanking wounds with the Storm Shield while the more killy DCAs and/or Arco-Flagellants kill stuff. Crusaders aren't meant to be killing much of anything on their own.

 Pouncey wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 BBAP wrote:


They're WS4 Guardsmen with a Storm Shield and power sword. Land Raiders do indeed suck, but they have two twin-linked lascannons on them and thus can kill things. Unlike Crusaders

I've had some good results with crusaders. They're really great vs mellee armies. Add in a priest and you've got a 3++ re-rollable relatively cheap unit that can tarpit anything. Last game they've killed a dp on the charge and than swept a squad of csm and routed 2 squads of chosen.

The entire point of Crusaders is tanking wounds with the Storm Shield while the more killy DCAs and/or Arco-Flagellants kill stuff. Crusaders aren't meant to be killing much of anything on their own.

Yeah, but you still do get a number of wounds in with ap3 and zealot. Even more so with inquisitor crusaders that have s4 ap2 from axes. Well, at least HAD.

 koooaei wrote:
Yeah, but you still do get a number of wounds in with ap3 and zealot. Even more so with inquisitor crusaders that have s4 ap2 from axes. Well, at least HAD.

Of course. They'll definitely dish out some wounds, but they're not the unit's main source of damage output.

I find it odd that anyone would consider a Battle Conclave to be a terrible unit when Repentia exist within the same Codex though. Surely a literal suicide-by-battle unit that lives up to its lore would be worse by default?

Repentia are harder to use but they're kinda like rough riders in my eyes. Supposed to be a cheap counter-charge/distraction one-shot unit that can delete an intended target and than die scoring an objective or something. Repentia are noticeably harder to use on their own simply due to speed and ini1. But a combination with celestine + auto-cast priest did work. They could tank a ton of damage in mellee with 2+ re-rollable or 3+ re-rollable backed up with 3+++ from a squad leader and than perform their 20-odd s6 ap2 attacks with hatred.

They were a good area-denying tool vs mellee-oriented units without much s6+ ap2. And they kinda had a place in this role in a msu rhino sob army. You moved forward, disembarked, shot, killed something and than the enemy had to decide weather he wants to engage the sisters and than loose a squad to repentia counter-charge or try to avoid this 18"- ish protection bauble. It's not always an option to shoot them down - not everyone has enough mobility or barrage weapons to shoot a small squad behind all this rhinos. At least that's a problem for orks w/o lobbas, csm, daemonkin, some daemon builds and they even pose some problems to IK as those s6 attacks have armorbane. They don't really work vs shooty armies and that's why people tend to disregard them.

The most useless unit I ever saw was the old Tyranid Biovore. It literally just pooped spores that scattered horrendously and then wandered the battlefield doing absolutely nothing while they were casually avoided.

 koooaei wrote:
Repentia are harder to use but they're kinda like rough riders in my eyes. Supposed to be a cheap counter-charge/distraction one-shot unit that can delete an intended target and than die scoring an objective or something. Repentia are noticeably harder to use on their own simply due to speed and ini1. But a combination with celestine + auto-cast priest did work. They could tank a ton of damage in mellee with 2+ re-rollable or 3+ re-rollable backed up with 3+++ from a squad leader and than perform their 20-odd s6 ap2 attacks with hatred.

They were a good area-denying tool vs mellee-oriented units without much s6+ ap2. And they kinda had a place in this role in a msu rhino sob army. You moved forward, disembarked, shot, killed something and than the enemy had to decide weather he wants to engage the sisters and than loose a squad to repentia counter-charge or try to avoid this 18"- ish protection bauble. It's not always an option to shoot them down - not everyone has enough mobility or barrage weapons to shoot a small squad behind all this rhinos. At least that's a problem for orks w/o lobbas, csm, daemonkin, some daemon builds and they even pose some problems to IK as those s6 attacks have armorbane. They don't really work vs shooty armies and that's why people tend to disregard them.

Fair enough. Thanks for the explanation. : D

I would argue that Ork Kommandos and Ork Flash Gitz are the winners of this one.

Kommandos are 10pts a model, granted those 4pts more then a boy buys you Stealth, Move through cover and infiltrate; but your still using an Ork boy so how scary is it? Think of it as marginally tougher boyz that cost almost twice as much to use. They would have a use in the game if they could assault from infiltrate or if they had special weapons that were cheap...they don't have either. Taking a single Kommando with a Burna costs 25pts, keep in mind that a Burna Boy only costs 16pts.

And in my opinion the winner!

FLASHGITZ!

22pts a model for a Nob with a S5 AP(D6) Assault 3 24in ranged gun.

You get Gitfindaz which are great, if GW hadn't ruined their usefulness with the caveat that they have to stand still to use them.

6+ Armor with no option to upgrade, every model comes with a Bosspole because.....yeah this is just stupid.

LD7 so when they lose 2 models they will use Mob rule (They will have a 50/50 to fail because they won't have enough models) and probably run away.

The only realistic way to field these guys is to put them into a Battlewagon but then you have drawn a GIANT target on that Battlewagon because you've invested so many points into a single unit which at the best of times can put out 15 S5 shots at BS2 so 5 AP(D6) S5 shots.

You will never see these models in any kind of tournament that is competitive, you will only ever see them in friendly games where the Ork player just wants to use them because he spent a hundred Dollars to field them.

I use Flash Gitz almost every game I play my Orks and they reliably do decent work. I like them a lot more than Shoota Boyz and their volume of fire makes up for the RNG AP. Great against bikes which declare their jink before the AP roll so they either risk getting their armor melted by a low AP roll or they ended up jinking against AP6. Battlewagon is a must for them but honestly I like Battlewagons so they are commonly used in my lists. Great synergy with Killkannons which the 12 model capacity is a non factor for Gitz which max at 10 models per unit.

 Vankraken wrote:
I use Flash Gitz almost every game I play my Orks and they reliably do decent work. I like them a lot more than Shoota Boyz and their volume of fire makes up for the RNG AP. Great against bikes which declare their jink before the AP roll so they either risk getting their armor melted by a low AP roll or they ended up jinking against AP6. Battlewagon is a must for them but honestly I like Battlewagons so they are commonly used in my lists. Great synergy with Killkannons which the 12 model capacity is a non factor for Gitz which max at 10 models per unit.

10 gitz with a Killkannon BW w/Ram,4(rokkitz/Big shootas) = 385pts. If you fire the Kill Kannon you have to snapfire your Gitz (Unless they changed that)

in a 1,500pt game I would focus fire AP1-2 weapons at that thing and kill it turn 1 or turn 2 and against an AP1 weapon it would be +3 to explode so a 4+ (50% chance) you would lose 4-5wounds on those guyz. And on a turn that they get in range to use those weapons they are getting 10 S5 hits. Against non-jinking SM Bikers thats only 5 wounds with a 50% chance of ignoring their armor.

You might be able to use them but against a competent opponent you will lose every time because they don't have the range, accuracy or durability to matter.

Can I put forth the Tzaangors from Wrath of Magnus?

You have a unit that costs *MORE* than the average Ork Boy, but is conceivably worse in most every way that counts.

No ranged weapons unless you pay more to replace a CCW with a laspistol (why?).
No Furious Charge.
No Dedicated Transport options.
No "cheap" transports for them otherwise (what are you going to do, jam them in a Land Raider?)
Their Sergeant cannot take ANY options or special melee weapons.

What do you get for it? A 6+ Invulnerable Save.

But wait, there's more!

They have a formation. "A" formation, that is. You get to take at least three of these units of misfits, and a Sorcerer with the Mark of Tzeentch and in exchange, they get Fleet, and the Tzaangors themselves get Run and Charge...but not any characters that have joined them, such as the Sorcerer that the formation requires. Their only real advantage is that they have a pseudo-Furious Charge that isn't technically Furious Charge and thus works despite Disordered Charges.

Oh, and they can reroll saving throws of 1 if you take 9 of these units! Re-roll 1s to get that 6+ Invul as you're rained on from above by Smart Missiles and Wyverns! I always wanted to spend a minimum of 540 points on non-obsec chaff that can't even include any anti-tank, that has to conditionally roll on its charge to be able to even glance a Rhino!

Really, the "best" thing about the formation is the remaining 6 slots could be filled with Spawn, except these Spawn also have to take Mark of Tzeentch. At least they get to re-roll the odd 1 for a save now and then. And then a Thousand Sons player realizes any of the other 8 Legions could just buy a single Spawn and fill out their Auxiliary choice like that!

Seriously man. Tzaangors are cattle for the slaughter.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
I use Flash Gitz almost every game I play my Orks and they reliably do decent work. I like them a lot more than Shoota Boyz and their volume of fire makes up for the RNG AP. Great against bikes which declare their jink before the AP roll so they either risk getting their armor melted by a low AP roll or they ended up jinking against AP6. Battlewagon is a must for them but honestly I like Battlewagons so they are commonly used in my lists. Great synergy with Killkannons which the 12 model capacity is a non factor for Gitz which max at 10 models per unit.

10 gitz with a Killkannon BW w/Ram,4(rokkitz/Big shootas) = 385pts. If you fire the Kill Kannon you have to snapfire your Gitz (Unless they changed that)

in a 1,500pt game I would focus fire AP1-2 weapons at that thing and kill it turn 1 or turn 2 and against an AP1 weapon it would be +3 to explode so a 4+ (50% chance) you would lose 4-5wounds on those guyz. And on a turn that they get in range to use those weapons they are getting 10 S5 hits. Against non-jinking SM Bikers thats only 5 wounds with a 50% chance of ignoring their armor.

You might be able to use them but against a competent opponent you will lose every time because they don't have the range, accuracy or durability to matter.

I don't put rokkits on the wagon if it has a killkannon and also your focusing the Battlewagon with Flash Gitz inside which means your ignoring all the melee units zooming up the field to smash face. Gitz work when they are in a hard to crack shell while the rest of the army are higher threat targets. I tend to run Blitz Brigades so I have 5 Battlewagons which means your having to pick which AV14 box you want to crack open and the gitz wagon is usually the lowest priority of the 5. Gitz don't have a 1 turn payoff but given time they work their magic and take chunks out of the enemy and stick around until turn 3 or 4 where they have done their damage and still have some punch left in them. Are there better options such as tankbusta or bike spam? Sure but I don't feel like I'm gimping myself by taking them because they serve the roll of fire support against high armor targets. Kommandos, Stormboyz, Deff Dreads, Half the Mek Guns, standard Nobz, Burna Bommers, and even Shoota Boyz tend to not be very useful to me and that is just listing entries in the Ork codex. Gitz are far from useless and in no way deserve "The Worst Unit" title.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Can I put forth the Tzaangors from Wrath of Magnus?
You have a unit that costs *MORE* than the average Ork Boy, but is conceivably worse in most every way that counts.

Their main advantage is that they're one of the cheapest more effective troops to field instead of overpriced 1000 sons. And they're not entirely bad. 6++ indeed makes them 1/6 more durable than ork boyz and they have better ld. Fit for the task of a min unit in a cad to sit on the back objective all game. And they can probably even chop down an odd sm bike or two.

Kinda like grots. If you take grots on their own, they're hugely overpriced. 3 ppm for ld5 t2 s2 dudes w/o armor guided by a 10 pt boy that grants...ld7 to the squad. When ig can get conscripts with t3 s3 and 5+ armor for all the same 3 ppm and they can become ld9 from a commissar or zealot + all the associated priest buffs for 25 pt. Conscripts compared to grots are like marines compared to imperial guardsmen. If imperial guardsmen cost 14 ppm. And yet grots are not a bad unit. They're just used for another purpose and are easier to get than conscripts.

Tzaangors get a 3++ under Forewarning, in an army with access to both the Div table and Warp Fate. So that's potentially a 7pt Obsec model, with a rerollable 3++ and a Character to take challenges. If you're lucky, with Rending attacks from Misfortune.

Regarding their Formation, six MSU Spawn are a 204pt tax for Favored of Tzeentch. So those Tzaangors can GTG for a rerollable 2+, protected from Flamers by T4 and a 6++.

Telekine Dome also stacks with their Mark, so you then might have Ork Boyz + MSU Spawn with a 4++ (rerolling 1's) and a 4+ FNP from Endurance.

They're almost certainly worth the extra 10pts over Marked Cultists, who are mandatory in a TS CAD. Just don't expect a miracle, you know?

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
Termagants need babysitters. Their IB means they fall back if you don't dedicate a synapse unit to look after them.

Rippers work fine by themselves. Most of the time they'll inflict a couple of wounds to themselves, which stops once they're down to a single model. It'll probably take a couple of turns before they lose a single base.
Otherwise they'll try to charge enemies in range, which isn't a problem if there are no enemies in range for them to charge.

Different meta I guess, they are literally pointless (more so than anything else Ive play or seen play) in my area.

It really depends on what you are doing with your list. If you are doing a classic nid horde with lots of gaunts then rippers are pointless.
If you are doing one of the flyer heavy builds that nids need to stand a chance at tournaments then rippers have a place as cheap troops (mucolids are better in this role) and as backfield objective campers (mucolids cannot do this role). Ripper vs mucolid vs a mix of both is basically a matter of personal taste.

To the point of the thread, pyrovores as second worse in the game and malceptors as the worst. Its like someone looked at the pyrovore and said at least it can't get worse and gw tool it as a challenge,

Tzaangors are fine if used in their formation.

They can run and charge with fleet, hit like a Assault Marine (WS4, S4, I4, 3 attacks) on the charge most of the time, which isn't that impressive untill you remember that they are 7 ppm (never *ever* spend 1 ppm on that autopistol!), then add the fact that they belong in one of the most powerful psychic armies in the game for some sweet buffs. (Like a 3++ due to MoT).

20 Tzaangors (140 pts) from that formation would rip trough 30 Slugga Boyz /w pimped out Nob (220 pts?) point for point on the charge (which they are likely to get.)
(60 attacks, 30 hits, 15 wounds, 13 dead boyz. 16 boyz and nob retaliates. boyz deal ~5,42 wounds, Nob deals 1,38 wounds = 6 dead Tzaangors. Tzaangors win by 7, Orks suffer more casualties due to Mobrule.)

That mandatory Sorcerer is best used with a Jumppack with some spawns from the same formation (both have fleet), or simply put him in a different unit.

If nothing else, they're a 7 ppm troop choice in an army, where the second cheapest troop choice is 23 ppm.

If a unit saves wounds 1 in 6 times, but costs 16% more, it's just as tough point for point. Arguably such a unit is actually not as tough, when you account for buffs and the reliability of obtaining them. For example, you can give Orks Eavy Armor or a Painboy. Either option is cheaper and more reliable than paying for a Sorcerer and hoping for a good Blessing. It's the old "Banshees+Doom" dependency issue of 4e Eldar with an added random chance you don't even get Doom.

The thing is 1k Sons by nature don't get a lot of buffs, especially since they need all the WC they can get to compensate for not having enough guns. You only yet Divination on Exalted Sorcerers or Ahriman. Add the fact you use up one or your rolls on Lore of Tzeentch, meaning you also lose access to Divination Psychic Focus, so you're spending 200 pts minimum for the spell re-roll and for a second chance to get Forewarning. Meanwhile, Warp Fate only works on the Psyker's unit, so using it means you no longer get to Run and Charge.

You could ally in Daemons...but at that point, you might as well play Daemons, since Blue Horrors might as well be T4 against Scatter Lasers, Venoms, Grav, and they get a 5++, reroll 1s without a formation, thus keeping Obsec, provide Warp Charge, split when they die, have a passable Primaris, Deep Strike...

The only bonuses you get that matter for running a 1k Sons detachment is access to the Astral Grimoire, and Seers Bane for the odd falcon punch. In either case, you're probably better off using a standalone formation to get some extra HQs, and not one that revolves around mass Tzaangors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or some math: For the same cost as a single ML 3 Spell Familiar Exalted Sorcerer, you can run 2 Heralds and 2 units of 11 Blue Horrors. For the cost of 2 such Sorcerers, you can run 4 Heralds and 4 Horror units, AND you can farm off 3 of those Heralds into Heralds Anarchic and get 3 more Warp Charge for free. Even with without re-rolling to manifest, that's the almost same chance of chances to get Forewarning (you can get duplicates alas), 15 Warp Charge versus 6, and actual board presence. Not to mention these two options are in the same book!

For the cost of 1 tzaangor you can run 2 s2 t2 ld5 no-save grots. Yay?..
Tzaangors are not supposed to be a worthy mellee unit. They're a cheap fodder/troop tax unit. And they're arguably better than tzeench cultists in this regard. Cause you get +1T for 2 pts if you also get a sarge for ld8. But if you forego the sarge, it's gona be +1T for 1 ppm over cultists. That's good.

 MagicJuggler wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or some math: For the same cost as a single ML 3 Spell Familiar Exalted Sorcerer, you can run 2 Heralds and 2 units of 11 Blue Horrors. For the cost of 2 such Sorcerers, you can run 4 Heralds and 4 Horror units, AND you can farm off 3 of those Heralds into Heralds Anarchic and get 3 more Warp Charge for free. Even with without re-rolling to manifest, that's the almost same chance of chances to get Forewarning (you can get duplicates alas), 15 Warp Charge versus 6, and actual board presence. Not to mention these two options are in the same book!

So go play Daemons then?

I don't mind all the WAAC-players jumping ship frankly, I'm tired of seeing so called "Thousand Sons"-lists which contains only 25% actual Thousand Sons, and the rest in some sort of allies (Tzeentch Daemons, other Chaos Legions, etc.)

Sister of Battle Celestians are pretty bad. S3 T3 unit that seems like it's intended to be an assault unit - their act of faith is to get Furious Charge - but no option to take pistol+ccw - instead they're armed with bolters. No assault transport options in the list, either.