I've heard some mention of CSM being good with the Traitor Legions supplement. Is this because of formations or new rules? Would this make a Nurgle themed army good?
We'll have to wait to see how tournaments go, but CSM definitely got MUCH better! The new rules allow you to field some really fluffy stuff and actually get good use out of it. Death Guard are currently seen as having gotten some of the best upgrades in that even their basic troops are almost as tough as a Plague Marine now, which has major points-savings! Their Psychic Powers are also much better.
Add on top of that the new Decurions and formations for CSM Legions, and you've got some powerful stuff. Go and enjoy!
I think the biggest take-away is the sheer versatility that the TL book has given CSM. The Legion rules are essentially Chapter Tactics and some of them are just as good or better. Every Legion allows a certain unit type to be Troops and gives out VotLW for free, plus an extra bonus to models with VotLW in most cases
Even though it is still early, I definitely think CSM are now at least as good as their Loyalist counterparts. Gladius free transport with Grav-spam lists are really the only thing that CSM cannot match, but otherwise CSM are finally even with the followers of the False Emperor.
Even though it is still early, I definitely think CSM are now at least as good as their Loyalist counterparts. Gladius free transport with Grav-spam lists are really the only thing that CSM cannot match, but otherwise CSM are finally even with the followers of the False Emperor.
Yes! Finally
Take away the most broken bits of loyalists and they've actually managed to bring a sub-par army up to balance
Now all they need to do is limit Eldar Jetbikes to 1 heavy weapon per 3, make 'Flickerjump' less powerful, re-cost some MCs/GMCs, give the Dark Eldar some good standard formations for their non-coven stuff, sort out whatever's wrong with Orks and Tyranids and we're good!
It adds flavour (to me, the Legions "feel" right), there are relatively powerful combos/buffs and there is the additional layer of playing 2 or more for unexpected tactics, something one could not do in 3.5. I bet we did not even started to appreciate all that the book can offer.
Said this, the basic Codex has been written by a person either not interested in CSM, or not committed to them as is for Eldar or Space Wolves, or that just hates them, or that just have no idea of how they work (proof: the fact that declared to use Thorpe's Codex as a baseline - preposterous). GW currently does not update codices, but prefers sells us more books and "fix" units with formations.
For this reason, if a CSM unit is basically extremely point inefficient, is more than possible that it will remain useless or very circumstantial even after Legions. One example is the Thousand Sons. If you note, the legion that got the best deal was the one with the best marines to begin with. Ah, Death Guard. When all the rest failed, you always saved me in 3rd edition. Never change, you adorable blobs of pus.
Still, I can appreciate the book because is still an improvement compared to what else came out for CSM.
I just remember with nostalgia one simpler time when one could do all of this with just one book, half the size and one third of the price of ONE current one, let alone six.
Galef wrote: I think the biggest take-away is the sheer versatility that the TL book has given CSM. The Legion rules are essentially Chapter Tactics and some of them are just as good or better.
Every Legion allows a certain unit type to be Troops and gives out VotLW for free, plus an extra bonus to models with VotLW in most cases
Even though it is still early, I definitely think CSM are now at least as good as their Loyalist counterparts. Gladius free transport with Grav-spam lists are really the only thing that CSM cannot match, but otherwise CSM are finally even with the followers of the False Emperor.
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I see nothing in this book that will overtake a white scars gladius in tournament play. Its a nice improvement, and i can finally atleast play my death guard again, but i would trade everything in the book for the ability to take grav guns, not to mention the gladius which still looks to be better than any formation in the legions book.
I see nothing in this book that will overtake a white scars gladius in tournament play. Its a nice improvement, and i can finally atleast play my death guard again, but i would trade everything in the book for the ability to take grav guns, not to mention the gladius which still looks to be better than any formation in the legions book.
Hence why I mentioned that they still can't match Gladius. But if we take take Gladius out of the equation, CSM are easily as good as, if not better than, any "other" SM list.
I do not see CSM as taking one of the top 3 spots. Eldar, Tau and Gladius Marines will still hold those. However, I would put CSM as top of the middle tier, right beside (if not above) Necrons
I see nothing in this book that will overtake a white scars gladius in tournament play. Its a nice improvement, and i can finally atleast play my death guard again, but i would trade everything in the book for the ability to take grav guns, not to mention the gladius which still looks to be better than any formation in the legions book.
Hence why I mentioned that they still can't match Gladius. But if we take take Gladius out of the equation, CSM are easily as good as, if not better than, any "other" SM list.
I do not see CSM as taking one of the top 3 spots. Eldar, Tau and Gladius Marines will still hold those. However, I would put CSM as top of the middle tier, right beside (if not above) Necrons
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i saw that, but gladius and grav exist. You cant just "take them out of the equation". It would be like me saying im the richest guy in the world if the billions guys with more money than me didnt exist. I guess it depends on what you mean as good, i think now they atleast have the tools that in a one off game at your local store, you could do some minor list tailoring and have a competative list vs almost anybody, but to showup to a large tournament and do really well, im not sure.
Ill still use them though since i already have a huge CSM force and im getting sick of playing eldar.
They certainly got much better and you can now officially build a fluffy army if you play any other legion besides Black Legion.
Some formations are very good and you can build a strong strategy behind some of them.
That being said, Chaos Marines are still a fundamentally flawed army in that they are a close combat army that has almost no transport options and most of the units available are still horrendously overcosted.
Brutus_Apex wrote: They certainly got much better and you can now officially build a fluffy army if you play any other legion besides Black Legion.
Some formations are very good and you can build a strong strategy behind some of them.
That being said, Chaos Marines are still a fundamentally flawed army in that they are a close combat army that has almost no transport options and most of the units available are still horrendously overcosted.
That being said the way they wrote the supplement leaves the door open for a new CSM book, and given that it was the first of the new books it might be on the block for an update, especially if a new edition drops.
Galef wrote: I think the biggest take-away is the sheer versatility that the TL book has given CSM. The Legion rules are essentially Chapter Tactics and some of them are just as good or better.
Every Legion allows a certain unit type to be Troops and gives out VotLW for free, plus an extra bonus to models with VotLW in most cases
Even though it is still early, I definitely think CSM are now at least as good as their Loyalist counterparts. Gladius free transport with Grav-spam lists are really the only thing that CSM cannot match, but otherwise CSM are finally even with the followers of the False Emperor.
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I see nothing in this book that will overtake a white scars gladius in tournament play. Its a nice improvement, and i can finally atleast play my death guard again, but i would trade everything in the book for the ability to take grav guns, not to mention the gladius which still looks to be better than any formation in the legions book.
While the Gladius is indeed superior to the Chaos Warband, you are not looking to our strengths and only be-moaning our "weakness"/ I feel this is a losing a proposition. Not picking at you directly.
The biggest take away I see from a competitive standpoint would be the Black Legion Decurion + Raptor Talon. Warp Talons that assault from reserves turn 1.
Personally I think the Cyclopea Cabal is crazy strong. In my competitive games as a loyalist I run a Grav-heavy Gladius, but the Cabals power feels dirtier. "Nice Grav Cents you have there, care to fire at your own models?"
So far I'm looking forward to rounding out my list and tactics with the Black Legion, and I'll be adding a Renegade Knight sometime in the future. It's interesting trying to consider how I'd take on a full fledged Gladius though, but I think a well supported Knight will help in that regard.
There is still a lot of work to do to bring chaos space marine up to snuff, but this supplement did something much more important.
It made csm FEEL like csm again. It gave each legion a face again. Power wise we're now sitting pretty comfortably in mid to upper mid tier and if you ask me I have good faith that we are likely to improve yet. We're still getting mortarion at some point and I doubt he'll be coming alone after what we saw in Wrath of Magnus. Personally, I'm looking forward to next year, hoping that we are indeed getting a new Abaddon. Ideally he would come with some friends too.
I have done nothing but expirement with Black Legion and Death Guard lists, as that is how I modeled all my CSM and I will tell you that DG is feeling really good. I am set up right now to play 2k against my daughters Tau with MSUCSM in a warband with 2 Heldrakes as the Aux and she is playing Hunter Contingent and Riptide Wing. It is the kind of list I would just hand shake and move to the next game before, but this time I feel like I have the option to do some damage and hold objectives. The relics are great. a 10 point Artifact gives you poison 2+ and becomes AP2 on a DP. I mean how awesome is that?
On that note, the point cost for the mandatory marks, and the already inflated point costs thanks to mandatory champions puts my model count vs hers about even and she is spamming suits and broadsides. So that tells you something. However I feel like the units can earn their points now. And that is something they could not do before.
CSM are much better but each legion is regulated to one or two tricks.
Death guard are my primary army, stop with this "csm units are cheap plague marines" nonsense.
Plague Marines are so much better its rediculous.
For 23 ppm, fearless, defensive and assault grenades, poison, three attacks when not charging, relentless, WS and Init modifier to enemy, and if you play a big enough game they also get a toughness modifier.
The regular csm nurgle marine is not fearless, has less attacks, is going to strike at init 3, no poisen, and is leadership nine at best....
If your source of inspiration for heavy weapons is a death guard marine then you are doing csm wrong lol. Oblits, heldrakes, vindicators, and termies are much better in those roles.
If obsec is your thing fine, csm deqth guard are ok at that, but iron warriors are much better in that role. Stubborn and 6+ fnp is awesome for obsec.
Yes, it is a big help. As mentioned DG have become the go to Legion. The AL got some neat tricks and can apply pressure from the outset due to mass infiltration. Raptors charging from deep strike is fairly scary, even if it is a disordered charge and the EC, albeit pricey via the icon, can get practically army wide 4+ FnP and +1 strength to sonic weapons.
From what I've understood, yes for the most part; not Eldar levels of S-tier (but what is?) but probably B- to A tier depending on what legion you pick. What keeps me from jumping wholesale back in is the lack of a decent miniature range, and I can't really use 30k stuff since I would do Death Guard, and I play at a GW store so can't use third party bits (although I could likely swing that one)
MrVulcanator wrote: I've heard some mention of CSM being good with the Traitor Legions supplement. Is this because of formations or new rules? Would this make a Nurgle themed army good?
I would say yes. Magnus is an absolute beast (I have played against him already) and the Raptor Talon is awesome.
ODDLY, the Raptor Talon is actually best when played i nthe new Black Legion Super Formation. it allows the warlords unit to auto drop on turn one and the others to drop turn one on a 3+. The reason its not better i nthe Night Lords is that the Night Lords disallow Marks. So you cannot buff your Talon up.
I am kind of surprised that the Black Legion got this ability and not the Night Lords but it does force an interesting choice. Re-roll charges from deep strike oooor.... get deep strikes on turn one with Marks.
Death Guard are looking really good in Traitor Legions. In fact most of the stuff looked darn good to me. Being a Night Lords player, I am naturally excited. the Raptor Talon is good either way but I'll have to play it in both versions to see how I like it. Black Legion also has a much larger "tax" in terms of mandatory units than the Night Lords do, so it could be that I can simply afford more Raptors and they are going to be Troops Choices. One thing i thought was funny though was that the Raptors are troops choices, but not Obsec unless you take them outside the Talon. So GW is doing a good job of balancing and forcing Genrrals to make choices which has been more and more their pattern. The Raptor Talon vs. normal Troops Choices, Night Lords vs. Black Legion conundrums all combine to kind of allow different styles to shine without advantaging any one too much.
That aside, I just am really excited about it. Night Lords are the lords of terrifying cvictory once more!
CSM are much better but each legion is regulated to one or two tricks.
Death guard are my primary army, stop with this "csm units are cheap plague marines" nonsense.
Plague Marines are so much better its rediculous.
For 23 ppm, fearless, defensive and assault grenades, poison, three attacks when not charging, relentless, WS and Init modifier to enemy, and if you play a big enough game they also get a toughness modifier.
The regular csm nurgle marine is not fearless, has less attacks, is going to strike at init 3, no poisen, and is leadership nine at best....
If your source of inspiration for heavy weapons is a death guard marine then you are doing csm wrong lol. Oblits, heldrakes, vindicators, and termies are much better in those roles.
If obsec is your thing fine, csm deqth guard are ok at that, but iron warriors are much better in that role. Stubborn and 6+ fnp is awesome for obsec.
This is what I was thinking, as I saw some comments that DG are so much better than plague marines now
I am kind of surprised that the Black Legion got this ability and not the Night Lords but it does force an interesting choice. Re-roll charges from deep strike oooor.... get deep strikes on turn one with Marks.
Not sure what you mean? Raptors talons can re-roll the charge either way due to not needing to use their jump packs on the turn they deepstrike. Being a jump unit gives them deepstrike. You wouldn't be able to put them into deepstrike reserve otherwise.
All NL raptors have over BL ones is stealth, which isn't really that much of a boon on raptors. Compared to, say, bikes who get a jink save. Unless you have them out on turn 1 and you're not using their formation rule to deepstrike and charge, but then you're better off using the ObSec raptors from the warband. BL also get Hatred and crusader so they hit harder in CC even without marks and they effectively have +1-3 iniative for sweeping advances. Plus they get banners and marks and maybe even legacy of ruin buffs as those require icons the NLs can't take (other than vengance). And an icon of Wrath would also let them re-roll later.
NL Talons have night vision and better fear tests, but night vision is borderline pointless on a raptor Talon and fear is...well..fear.
A NL raptor Talon doesn't have much to offer compared to a BL talon. Not speaking about raptors in general, just the Talon.
I am kind of surprised that the Black Legion got this ability and not the Night Lords but it does force an interesting choice. Re-roll charges from deep strike oooor.... get deep strikes on turn one with Marks.
Not sure what you mean? Raptors talons can re-roll the charge either way due to not needing to use their jump packs on the turn they deepstrike. Being a jump unit gives them deepstrike. You wouldn't be able to put them into deepstrike reserve otherwise.
All NL raptors have over BL ones is stealth, which isn't really that much of a boon on raptors. Compared to, say, bikes who get a jink save. Unless you have them out on turn 1 and you're not using their formation rule to deepstrike and charge, but then you're better off using the ObSec raptors from the warband. BL also get Hatred and crusader so they hit harder in CC even without marks and they effectively have +1-3 iniative for sweeping advances. Plus they get banners and marks and maybe even legacy of ruin buffs as those require icons the NLs can't take (other than vengance). And an icon of Wrath would also let them re-roll later.
NL Talons have night vision and better fear tests, but night vision is borderline pointless on a raptor Talon and fear is...well..fear.
A NL raptor Talon doesn't have much to offer compared to a BL talon. Not speaking about raptors in general, just the Talon.
Thatsa not accurate. Deep Striking IS using their jump packs. So no. they could not re-roll charges the round they deep strike without that ability, which the Night Lords gives back to them.
I am kind of surprised that the Black Legion got this ability and not the Night Lords but it does force an interesting choice. Re-roll charges from deep strike oooor.... get deep strikes on turn one with Marks.
Not sure what you mean? Raptors talons can re-roll the charge either way due to not needing to use their jump packs on the turn they deepstrike. Being a jump unit gives them deepstrike. You wouldn't be able to put them into deepstrike reserve otherwise.
All NL raptors have over BL ones is stealth, which isn't really that much of a boon on raptors. Compared to, say, bikes who get a jink save. Unless you have them out on turn 1 and you're not using their formation rule to deepstrike and charge, but then you're better off using the ObSec raptors from the warband. BL also get Hatred and crusader so they hit harder in CC even without marks and they effectively have +1-3 iniative for sweeping advances. Plus they get banners and marks and maybe even legacy of ruin buffs as those require icons the NLs can't take (other than vengance). And an icon of Wrath would also let them re-roll later.
NL Talons have night vision and better fear tests, but night vision is borderline pointless on a raptor Talon and fear is...well..fear.
A NL raptor Talon doesn't have much to offer compared to a BL talon. Not speaking about raptors in general, just the Talon.
Thatsa not accurate. Deep Striking IS using their jump packs. So no. they could not re-roll charges the round they deep strike without that ability, which the Night Lords gives back to them.
Please provide a source for this. The rules for jump units say they have the deepstrike special rule. They say nothing about counting as having used their jump pack to do so.
The rules for deepstriking say they count as having moved, but again nothing about having used their jump pack.
It makes sense that they would use their packs for deepstriking but that's not actually supported by the rules.
Please provide a source for this. The rules for jump units say they have the deepstrike special rule. They say nothing about counting as having used their jump pack to do so.
The rules for deepstriking say they count as having moved, but again nothing about having used their jump pack.
It makes sense that they would use their packs for deepstriking but that's not actually supported by the rules.
People are gushing over the DG simply because it is the most obvious choice on a first glance. I myself, think DG are really good. But not the only choice people have them made out to be. Black Legion is VERY strong as well as psyker heavy TS (which is sad) along with AL tricks and EC. The only real subpar choices are WB and rubric heavy TS. My thoughts are still out on the WE. SImply because I cant tell in theory craft if the extra movement and charge range is worth giving up KdK rules. Im guessing a WE Maelstrom of Gore backed up by a hefty Lost and Damned formation may make for fun, but I doubt it will be pulling many tourney top spots.
All in all this supplement was a godsend. It lets us make fluffy AND competitive list choices (some are both at once even). We are firmly at the very top of the b tier neck and neck with Crons. The fact that eldar/tau/deamons and gladius are not properly balanced does not make this supplement bad. It makes those factions in dire need to a "nerf". We are were we should be. Now we need the rest of the game to catch up.
Please provide a source for this. The rules for jump units say they have the deepstrike special rule. They say nothing about counting as having used their jump pack to do so.
The rules for deepstriking say they count as having moved, but again nothing about having used their jump pack.
It makes sense that they would use their packs for deepstriking but that's not actually supported by the rules.
You have to be joking.
Off topic, but I was wondering your thoughts on the NL's relic choices. Most seem weak to me outside of the Vox. But I am only a mediocre player and perhaps a more vet'd opinion is in order.
Table wrote: People are gushing over the DG simply because it is the most obvious choice on a first glance. I myself, think DG are really good. But not the only choice people have them made out to be. Black Legion is VERY strong as well as psyker heavy TS (which is sad) along with AL tricks and EC. The only real subpar choices are WB and rubric heavy TS. My thoughts are still out on the WE. SImply because I cant tell in theory craft if the extra movement and charge range is worth giving up KdK rules. Im guessing a WE Maelstrom of Gore backed up by a hefty Lost and Damned formation may make for fun, but I doubt it will be pulling many tourney top spots.
All in all this supplement was a godsend. It lets us make fluffy AND competitive list choices (some are both at once even). We are firmly at the very top of the b tier neck and neck with Crons. The fact that eldar/tau/deamons and gladius are not properly balanced does not make this supplement bad. It makes those factions in dire need to a "nerf". We are were we should be. Now we need the rest of the game to catch up.
Please provide a source for this. The rules for jump units say they have the deepstrike special rule. They say nothing about counting as having used their jump pack to do so.
The rules for deepstriking say they count as having moved, but again nothing about having used their jump pack.
It makes sense that they would use their packs for deepstriking but that's not actually supported by the rules.
You have to be joking.
Off topic, but I was wondering your thoughts on the NL's relic choices. Most seem weak to me outside of the Vox. But I am only a mediocre player and perhaps a more vet'd opinion is in order.
Most of the relics are pretty okay and worth using. The only one I'm not terribly a fan of is the special lightning claws because of the super large investment for them.
Off topic, but I was wondering your thoughts on the NL's relic choices. Most seem weak to me outside of the Vox. But I am only a mediocre player and perhaps a more vet'd opinion is in order.
Scourging Chains is simply awesome. 10 points to make all your close combat attacks Shred? Yes please! Good against all manner of enemy and with all manner of weaponry. It's a great addition and a nice "I've got ten points left, what should I take" kind of an item.
Claws of the Black Hunt are ESSENTIALLY just Rending and +1 STR for 10 points. It says 40, but you'd already have to pay for the pair of lightning claws anyways. So if you were already taking a pair of lightning claws, this is a nice upgrade for 10 points. If you werent going to, then don't take it.
Talons of the Night Terror are a really nice answer to hordes. Consider this: The average number of attacks on the charge that you get from the artifact is slightly more than what you'd get for just bringing another Marine with Pistol + CCW and you'd have the extra wound to show for it if you took the Marine. BUT... As Chaos Characters must challenge, the real advantage to this artifact is that it gives you a much better chance in challenges, especially if you took a Fist. The normal attacks it allows may allow you to beat the challenged about the ears, and by so doing, avoid ITS super weapon. That in turn becomes a Boon for your HQ and allows the HQ to actually attack the unit at large afterwards (I know the wounds would spill outwards anyways but this ensures a CHANCE that all the Fist wounds will). IN the context of a challenging Chaos Lord, which is where this would be taken, it makes more sense perhaps in that way than it appears.
Vox Daemonicus is quite excellent. I think it will get more attention than most. 30 point to nerf enemy reserves (-1). More importantly it adds an aura of -1 LD which is great in conjunction with Night Lords who reduce enemy leadership vs. fear by 2 already. It is quite likely that enemies will suffer greatly at the hands of such a Chaos Lord for they will simply be hitting on 5's a pretty good chunk of the time if they aren't immune to Fear. Sadly many are. Still it's a really nice artifact and it works in convjunction well with certain Psyker powers like Terrify and so on. 30 points feels right on the edge of "too much" but it doesnt quite cross over in my mind. There are also a fair number of opponents who use reserves so Drop Pod armies will be none too happy to see a Chaos Lord with this upgrade.
Curze's Orb is not nearly as exciting as any of the other choices. It's preferred enemy, pretty much but I think I'd rather have the cheaper Scourging Chains.
Stormbolt Plate looks GREAT. How long have we all wished a Chaos Lord could get a 2+ armor! Also, he now can get it with Stealth +1... meaning he's tanking on 2+ cover in cover. That is truly awesome. Still no Eternal Warrior but if you're on a Bike that problem is largely solved also. So this might be the biggest winner of them all. I love it. 20 points is an absolute steal for this artifact in this force.
Please provide a source for this. The rules for jump units say they have the deepstrike special rule. They say nothing about counting as having used their jump pack to do so.
The rules for deepstriking say they count as having moved, but again nothing about having used their jump pack.
It makes sense that they would use their packs for deepstriking but that's not actually supported by the rules.
You have to be joking.
Why? According to the fluff every normal assault marine would have deepstrike assault with hammer of wrath. But that's all it is...fluff.
The rules say they have deepstrike, no more, no less. You can choose to use the jump pack or not during the movement phase. Choosing not to use doesn't change the fact that the model has the deepstrike special rule.
So if you choose to count as having used the jump pack when deepstriking, that's your prerogative. I'd rather use it to re-roll charges and gain hammer of wrath attacks. Which imho is closer to the lore too. If you disagree, perhaps we should take this to you make da call instead.
CSM are much better but each legion is regulated to one or two tricks.
Death guard are my primary army, stop with this "csm units are cheap plague marines" nonsense.
Plague Marines are so much better its rediculous.
For 23 ppm, fearless, defensive and assault grenades, poison, three attacks when not charging, relentless, WS and Init modifier to enemy, and if you play a big enough game they also get a toughness modifier.
The regular csm nurgle marine is not fearless, has less attacks, is going to strike at init 3, no poisen, and is leadership nine at best....
If your source of inspiration for heavy weapons is a death guard marine then you are doing csm wrong lol. Oblits, heldrakes, vindicators, and termies are much better in those roles.
If obsec is your thing fine, csm deqth guard are ok at that, but iron warriors are much better in that role. Stubborn and 6+ fnp is awesome for obsec.
Do you actually play csm with traitor legions? You seem to have forgotten the entirety of page 116 in the traitor legion book (or at least only forgotten the bits that take away from your argument; you remembered the initiative drop on regular death guard marines, which is the only negative change, but forgotten every single positive one...)
For 16 ppm chaos marines in death guard from traitor legions gain fearless, relentless, and FNP. Also, death guard have 2 attacks each (one on profile, one from pistol and plague knife).
So for 7 ppm you gain an extra melee attack, blight grenades, and 4+ poison in close combat. In what world is that "so much better it's rediculous"?. I'd take the cheaper guys every time.
And yes, plague marines can get the toughness modifier, if you take the plague colony with 7 units of plague marines. Which you are never going to do due to needing, as you said, to spend points on oblits, heldrakes, vindicators, and termies. And sure you get the ws and i penalties for running the minimum 3 units + lord in a plague colony, but so what? Plague marines in close combat just grind enemies down over several turns, they aren't close combat monsters, and this will not change that. Also, I'd rather take the chaos warband pretty much every time due to that sweet ObSec and flexibility in unit choice. You NEED ObSec in death guard. Like the gladius and most necrons, death guard lists aren't supposed to be tabling their opponent, you win by sitting on objectives and being impossible to remove. To do that you need ObSec. Being able to cover so many bases in one formation is really nice as well, with the ability to take termicide for anti-tank, having bikers to go with your lord, a havoc squad (which became massively better) for some long ranged firepower... Chaos warband> plague colony every time.
And no, iron warriors do not MSU anywhere near as well as death guard. Fearless>stubborn/ fearless in fortifications, 5+ FNP> 6+ FNP, relentless> no relentless, and death guard gain stealth from more than 18" and reroll 1's for FNP. Death guard msu squads are "so much better it's rediculous" at msu than iron warriors. I've missed out the +1 toughness for deathguard because it isn't a free bonus so isn't a direct advantage, but it does cement death guard squads as being vastly more resilient than iron warrior ones.
DG, EC, and WE got buffed to maybe mid-tier. Lack of an ...ATSKNF equivalent has been one of the many issues (having to spend our HQ choices or an Icon to get it at absolute premium wasn't working). The rest got a buff, but not much.
I think the most overrated one is the Alpha Legion Insurgency Force. Nevermind the logistical nightmare of the sheer amount of models you have to paint, Cultists don't come anywhere near as cheap as they should, and Renegades to them better and cheaper, leaving Chosen and CSMs, which are awful.
Mindveil is a good artefact, but an Alpha Legion Insurgency Force cannot use a Spartan (or Kharybdis) as a delivery method unless you ally in a CAD, and then you lose Infiltrate. You can take a Dreadclaw for a pretty bad deathstar, but no point in taking the Alpha Legion Insurgency then.
ChazSexington wrote: DG, EC, and WE got buffed to maybe mid-tier. Lack of an ...ATSKNF equivalent has been one of the many issues (having to spend our HQ choices or an Icon to get it at absolute premium wasn't working). The rest got a buff, but not much.
I think the most overrated one is the Alpha Legion Insurgency Force. Nevermind the logistical nightmare of the sheer amount of models you have to paint, Cultists don't come anywhere near as cheap as they should, and Renegades to them better and cheaper, leaving Chosen and CSMs, which are awful.
Mindveil is a good artefact, but an Alpha Legion Insurgency Force cannot use a Spartan (or Kharybdis) as a delivery method unless you ally in a CAD, and then you lose Infiltrate. You can take a Dreadclaw for a pretty bad deathstar, but no point in taking the Alpha Legion Insurgency then.
The main draw, as I see it with the Alpha Legion (outside of the fluff or paint scheme) is the 4+ re-roll on re-spawning cultists that stacks with the Lost and the Damned formation rule. But the major issue is that you cannot chose the The Lost and the Damned formation as a core formation. The only core formation for a AL detachment is a chaos warband. Which is a good solid formation. But it is an expensive one. After you get done paying for it you will be hard pressed to find points for a lost and damned formation while filling out your Anti armor / MC roles. So, it is a self defeating rule.
Other than that bit of information I do not feel qualified enough to comment on the other faction bonus's and how they work out in actual games. What I do know is that the more I read traitor legions the more I am seeing specific limitations put into the legions to keep them upper mid tier. For instance. If the Black Legion had access to a chaos warband it would be ALMOST as strong as a gladius formation (the lack of grav means the loyalists win out) but the fact you are forced to either take the subpar black legion warband or the the hounds of abbadon as a core formation really keeps the legion from the top listings. It is still a very good detachment. But it could have been so much better and given chaos playeers their first honest to goodness tourney tier list. Sadly, this is not the fate GW has in mind for CSM and that fact has been proven with every update past 3.5. And at the risk of being a broken record, it is not changing any time in the near future.
Lets hope GW gets smart and actually understand how well chaos sells if there is proper rules behind the mini's and gives us a proper codex in 8th. Until then we are doing pretty good however.
I've been really impressed by the Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Black Legion and Death Guard, there's some beautiful stuff in those sections.
I've been very disappointed in the Word Bearers, though. Without the Grand Host detachment the only units that receive any buffs outside of VotLW are Dark Apostles and psykers, meaning your lists don't get any real benefits without these units, which sucks considering I don't like fielding Daemon Princes and am not impressed with malefic daemonology as well as when you consider this is in the same book where another Legion gets FNP, fearless and relentless for free. If they had given the Sorcerers some kind of protection from malefic perils I'd be content. Even with the Grand Host all you get is crusader over the Black Crusade detachment which I'm not thrilled by.
The relics are on average middling.
The Skull of Monarchia is more often than not not going to be of any real use.
The Malefic tome is okay too. Not bad for two meltabombs.
Scripts of Erebus are great for a psychic phase where you must make something happen.
The Baleful Icon confuses me. Maybe in a sorceror bunker? I'm not a fan.
Crown of the Blasphemer is a nice way of getting a 4++ on a Warpsmith. It's a sigil of corruption with Admantium Will, this is weak I think.
Cursed Crozius is a concussive relic blade with PE Imperium. It's alright on a DP for S8 but then the Black Mace is better on a DP.
I really like the warlord traits other than the Fearless+AW one. Voice of Lorgar, Nexus of the Gods, Latent powers and Unholy Firebrand are all fantastic.
Tactical objectives are alright. Again, heavy emphasis on summoning.
Honestly I'm torn. I don't see my army changing to accommodate a Dark Apostle or a Daemon Prince. If I wanted to summon daemons I'd ally in something that can from the Chaos Daemons book where I'd also be able to take relics and icons to support them.
So for me the only thing the base Legion rules added was free VotlW and super hatred for Ultramarines and the Grand Host can give me Crusader.
I've thought about a CAD, but without any cult marines I don't think it'll be too effective.
I think every Word Bearers army that has any degree of success will be a summoning Daemon Prince, which hasn't really helped the Legion, its just allowing you to use units from the superior Daemons book. Personally I'll be running mine as a different Legion.
Sheokronath wrote: I've been really impressed by the Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Black Legion and Death Guard, there's some beautiful stuff in those sections.
I've been very disappointed in the Word Bearers, though. Without the Grand Host detachment the only units that receive any buffs outside of VotLW are Dark Apostles and psykers, meaning your lists don't get any real benefits without these units, which sucks considering I don't like fielding Daemon Princes and am not impressed with malefic daemonology as well as when you consider this is in the same book where another Legion gets FNP, fearless and relentless for free. If they had given the Sorcerers some kind of protection from malefic perils I'd be content. Even with the Grand Host all you get is crusader over the Black Crusade detachment which I'm not thrilled by.
The relics are on average middling.
The Skull of Monarchia is more often than not not going to be of any real use.
The Malefic tome is okay too. Not bad for two meltabombs.
Scripts of Erebus are great for a psychic phase where you must make something happen.
The Baleful Icon confuses me. Maybe in a sorceror bunker? I'm not a fan.
Crown of the Blasphemer is a nice way of getting a 4++ on a Warpsmith. It's a sigil of corruption with Admantium Will, this is weak I think.
Cursed Crozius is a concussive relic blade with PE Imperium. It's alright on a DP for S8 but then the Black Mace is better on a DP.
I really like the warlord traits other than the Fearless+AW one. Voice of Lorgar, Nexus of the Gods, Latent powers and Unholy Firebrand are all fantastic.
Tactical objectives are alright. Again, heavy emphasis on summoning.
Honestly I'm torn. I don't see my army changing to accommodate a Dark Apostle or a Daemon Prince. If I wanted to summon daemons I'd ally in something that can from the Chaos Daemons book where I'd also be able to take relics and icons to support them.
So for me the only thing the base Legion rules added was free VotlW and super hatred for Ultramarines and the Grand Host can give me Crusader.
I've thought about a CAD, but without any cult marines I don't think it'll be too effective.
I think every Word Bearers army that has any degree of success will be a summoning Daemon Prince, which hasn't really helped the Legion, its just allowing you to use units from the superior Daemons book. Personally I'll be running mine as a different Legion.
There is a Legacy of Ruin in IA 13 which is called Death of Kasyr Lutien. It allows psykers withing 12 inch of the tank to re-roll a d6 per hull point on all tests for maelific demonology.. I think this will be standard for Word Bearer lists. To bad you need IA 13 to use it.
CSM are much better but each legion is regulated to one or two tricks.
Death guard are my primary army, stop with this "csm units are cheap plague marines" nonsense.
Plague Marines are so much better its rediculous.
For 23 ppm, fearless, defensive and assault grenades, poison, three attacks when not charging, relentless, WS and Init modifier to enemy, and if you play a big enough game they also get a toughness modifier.
The regular csm nurgle marine is not fearless, has less attacks, is going to strike at init 3, no poisen, and is leadership nine at best....
If your source of inspiration for heavy weapons is a death guard marine then you are doing csm wrong lol. Oblits, heldrakes, vindicators, and termies are much better in those roles.
If obsec is your thing fine, csm deqth guard are ok at that, but iron warriors are much better in that role. Stubborn and 6+ fnp is awesome for obsec.
Do you actually play csm with traitor legions? You seem to have forgotten the entirety of page 116 in the traitor legion book (or at least only forgotten the bits that take away from your argument; you remembered the initiative drop on regular death guard marines, which is the only negative change, but forgotten every single positive one...)
For 16 ppm chaos marines in death guard from traitor legions gain fearless, relentless, and FNP. Also, death guard have 2 attacks each (one on profile, one from pistol and plague knife).
So for 7 ppm you gain an extra melee attack, blight grenades, and 4+ poison in close combat. In what world is that "so much better it's rediculous"?. I'd take the cheaper guys every time.
And yes, plague marines can get the toughness modifier, if you take the plague colony with 7 units of plague marines. Which you are never going to do due to needing, as you said, to spend points on oblits, heldrakes, vindicators, and termies. And sure you get the ws and i penalties for running the minimum 3 units + lord in a plague colony, but so what? Plague marines in close combat just grind enemies down over several turns, they aren't close combat monsters, and this will not change that. Also, I'd rather take the chaos warband pretty much every time due to that sweet ObSec and flexibility in unit choice. You NEED ObSec in death guard. Like the gladius and most necrons, death guard lists aren't supposed to be tabling their opponent, you win by sitting on objectives and being impossible to remove. To do that you need ObSec. Being able to cover so many bases in one formation is really nice as well, with the ability to take termicide for anti-tank, having bikers to go with your lord, a havoc squad (which became massively better) for some long ranged firepower... Chaos warband> plague colony every time.
And no, iron warriors do not MSU anywhere near as well as death guard. Fearless>stubborn/ fearless in fortifications, 5+ FNP> 6+ FNP, relentless> no relentless, and death guard gain stealth from more than 18" and reroll 1's for FNP. Death guard msu squads are "so much better it's rediculous" at msu than iron warriors. I've missed out the +1 toughness for deathguard because it isn't a free bonus so isn't a direct advantage, but it does cement death guard squads as being vastly more resilient than iron warrior ones.
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Plague Marines also pay to get their special weapons cheaper in the long run. 50 points adds up pretty quick.
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ChazSexington wrote: DG, EC, and WE got buffed to maybe mid-tier. Lack of an ...ATSKNF equivalent has been one of the many issues (having to spend our HQ choices or an Icon to get it at absolute premium wasn't working). The rest got a buff, but not much.
I think the most overrated one is the Alpha Legion Insurgency Force. Nevermind the logistical nightmare of the sheer amount of models you have to paint, Cultists don't come anywhere near as cheap as they should, and Renegades to them better and cheaper, leaving Chosen and CSMs, which are awful.
Mindveil is a good artefact, but an Alpha Legion Insurgency Force cannot use a Spartan (or Kharybdis) as a delivery method unless you ally in a CAD, and then you lose Infiltrate. You can take a Dreadclaw for a pretty bad deathstar, but no point in taking the Alpha Legion Insurgency then.
There is a Legacy of Ruin in IA 13 which is called Death of Kasyr Lutien. It allows psykers withing 12 inch of the tank to re-roll a d6 per hull point on all tests for maelific demonology.. I think this will be standard for Word Bearer lists. To bad you need IA 13 to use it.
I know of the Legacies of Ruin and I'm personally not a fan, but I think we'll see it too.
Please provide a source for this. The rules for jump units say they have the deepstrike special rule. They say nothing about counting as having used their jump pack to do so.
The rules for deepstriking say they count as having moved, but again nothing about having used their jump pack.
It makes sense that they would use their packs for deepstriking but that's not actually supported by the rules.
You have to be joking.
Why? According to the fluff every normal assault marine would have deepstrike assault with hammer of wrath. But that's all it is...fluff.
The rules say they have deepstrike, no more, no less. You can choose to use the jump pack or not during the movement phase. Choosing not to use doesn't change the fact that the model has the deepstrike special rule.
So if you choose to count as having used the jump pack when deepstriking, that's your prerogative. I'd rather use it to re-roll charges and gain hammer of wrath attacks. Which imho is closer to the lore too. If you disagree, perhaps we should take this to you make da call instead.
Try it at a tournament and see what happens. No one is going to agree to that spurious logic... You wont do it to me in a game, I promise you. But if you wanna' sell that snake oil, go right ahead.
Snake Oil huh, ^_- I didn't make the rules. Jump units counting deepstrike as a jump move is a house rule, tournament or not. Some tournaments treat invisibility as BS1 instead of snapshots, that doesn't make it RAW.
I would have to say raw, raptors can use their packs to jump into combat from deep strike , considering the permissive rule set and all. Nothing prohibits it in the rules.
Not sure what faq they are referrring too. Can't find anything like that in either the current ork faq or the brbfaq.
If that's from an older faq it's meaningless. Abaddon used to have a faq that prevented him becoming a spawn, but they removed that. He can now become a spawn again.
Seems like they count as having used their jump packs if they deep strike, which makes sense really.
A thread from almost 5 years ago?
Yes.
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Roknar wrote: Not sure what faq they are referrring too. Can't find anything like that in either the current ork faq or the brbfaq.
If that's from an older faq it's meaningless. Abaddon used to have a faq that prevented him becoming a spawn, but they removed that. He can now become a spawn again.
I think this kind of thing gives people an idea of rules as intended, at the very least. We all know that Abaddon shouldn't be capable of turning into either a daemon prince or spawn, it simply seems to be an oversight when they were FAQing up for the second round. In any case, I'm just trying to help
GW change their mind more often than most people change their knickers. Intent five years ago isn't much to go on tbh. And RAW in this case is pretty clear. Also despite having fixed abaddon in a previous faq for this editions codex and most people agreeing it's bollocks, people now play it as written regardless, so why should this be any different? Especially considering this is a choice.
Either way though, I think I made my position clear. I'd rather not derail the thread any further.
its a band aid, a good one, but still a band aid, it doesn't address any of the major issues with chaos space marines, it just closes the gap between the vastly overcosted units and the abilities they get, we are at the end of the day still paying for things other armies get for free.
A prime example is Khorne bezerkers, does the new book make them better, not really, they still cost too much, have to pay for a chainaxe (3pts wtf) and still don't have a delivery system (assault vehicle), other things improved to a greater or lesser extent, an ability that allows oblits to fire the same weapon every turn? should have never been an issue, free marks? should never have had to pay for them when other armies get similar for free (extra wound sarge for elder, chapter tactics for marines etc.).
This isn't a complaint, I like the new book, I just don't have rose tinted glases about it, most of what has been added should never had needed adding, it should be part of the main chaos dex, now if/when they fix that, this book will make chaos near top tier I think.
Please provide a source for this. The rules for jump units say they have the deepstrike special rule. They say nothing about counting as having used their jump pack to do so.
The rules for deepstriking say they count as having moved, but again nothing about having used their jump pack.
It makes sense that they would use their packs for deepstriking but that's not actually supported by the rules.
You have to be joking.
Why? According to the fluff every normal assault marine would have deepstrike assault with hammer of wrath. But that's all it is...fluff.
The rules say they have deepstrike, no more, no less. You can choose to use the jump pack or not during the movement phase. Choosing not to use doesn't change the fact that the model has the deepstrike special rule.
So if you choose to count as having used the jump pack when deepstriking, that's your prerogative. I'd rather use it to re-roll charges and gain hammer of wrath attacks. Which imho is closer to the lore too. If you disagree, perhaps we should take this to you make da call instead.
Try it at a tournament and see what happens. No one is going to agree to that spurious logic... You wont do it to me in a game, I promise you. But if you wanna' sell that snake oil, go right ahead.
He could try it and would likely win the argument, as dim as it is, the rules do actually support him, Not HIWPI, but he isn't wrong mate.
Sheokronath wrote: I've been really impressed by the Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Black Legion and Death Guard, there's some beautiful stuff in those sections.
I've been very disappointed in the Word Bearers, though. Without the Grand Host detachment the only units that receive any buffs outside of VotLW are Dark Apostles and psykers, meaning your lists don't get any real benefits without these units, which sucks considering I don't like fielding Daemon Princes and am not impressed with malefic daemonology as well as when you consider this is in the same book where another Legion gets FNP, fearless and relentless for free. If they had given the Sorcerers some kind of protection from malefic perils I'd be content. Even with the Grand Host all you get is crusader over the Black Crusade detachment which I'm not thrilled by.
The relics are on average middling.
The Skull of Monarchia is more often than not not going to be of any real use.
The Malefic tome is okay too. Not bad for two meltabombs.
Scripts of Erebus are great for a psychic phase where you must make something happen.
The Baleful Icon confuses me. Maybe in a sorceror bunker? I'm not a fan.
Crown of the Blasphemer is a nice way of getting a 4++ on a Warpsmith. It's a sigil of corruption with Admantium Will, this is weak I think.
Cursed Crozius is a concussive relic blade with PE Imperium. It's alright on a DP for S8 but then the Black Mace is better on a DP.
I really like the warlord traits other than the Fearless+AW one. Voice of Lorgar, Nexus of the Gods, Latent powers and Unholy Firebrand are all fantastic.
Tactical objectives are alright. Again, heavy emphasis on summoning.
Honestly I'm torn. I don't see my army changing to accommodate a Dark Apostle or a Daemon Prince. If I wanted to summon daemons I'd ally in something that can from the Chaos Daemons book where I'd also be able to take relics and icons to support them.
So for me the only thing the base Legion rules added was free VotlW and super hatred for Ultramarines and the Grand Host can give me Crusader.
I've thought about a CAD, but without any cult marines I don't think it'll be too effective.
I think every Word Bearers army that has any degree of success will be a summoning Daemon Prince, which hasn't really helped the Legion, its just allowing you to use units from the superior Daemons book. Personally I'll be running mine as a different Legion.
I honestly prefer the Palanquin Sorcerer myself. I like their Warlord Traits as they're all good "All-around" force multipliers. The Tome is nice, because I get more flexibility, and it lets me ignore the penalty of having to generate a Nurgle Power (though to be fair, Nurgle got some nice buffs this edition), and the Warband feels a lot more playable when you can combine boons, Warlord Buffs, and Psyker blessings in one go.
Generally, you only need one or two HQs for an army anyway; more than that usually leads to it being top-heavy and not having good board presence. That said, I find that Summoning on a 3+ with rerolls makes getting it off on 5 dice that much more comfortable. Combined with a Paradox Herald and an automatic summon on 5 more dice, and you can really put a surprising amount of pressure on your foe.
I think Word Bearers are underrated, and the fact they can take varied Marks but don't *have* to take Marks means they sacrifice raw buffs for flexibility of purpose.
Being a Khorne man myself, I'll ask this since I don't have the TL book: is it better to run World Eaters than Khorne Daemonkin now? Or is it a toss-up? Do either of them really do well on their own, or do they need to bring psychic support via allies?
I've tried running my Daemonkin by themselves, and they usually don't do that well against the good lists from other books. Of course, nowadays I've got a Daemon Knight of Khorne to try and even the odds. Can WE do better?
I'm debating getting TL and that awesome new Kharn model, so any info is appreciated!
The jury is still out on which khorne book is better. WE have way WAY more unit options thanks to being CSM proper and barely need transports, if at all. Daemonkin are tougher thanks to blood tithe fnp and summoning without needing psykers.
My initial thoughts were that WE hit harder and faster, but struggle staying in the game compared to daemonkin.
First turn charges aren't just possible with WE, they are likely to happen. Their artefacts are more aggressive than KDK.
On the other hand KDK don't need psychic scum in order to gain fnp and summon daemons etc. Their losses aren't flat losses like they are with WE.
With a CADWE get access to all forgeworld units, inlcuding vindicator laser destroyers, fire raptors and sicarans.
Unlike KDK they don't loose anything by adding such a CAD. Taking them alongside KDK would mean having less units with bftbg.
All in all I'd say they're not that different in power, but WE win for me due to being WElol.
CSM are much better but each legion is regulated to one or two tricks.
Death guard are my primary army, stop with this "csm units are cheap plague marines" nonsense.
Plague Marines are so much better its rediculous.
For 23 ppm, fearless, defensive and assault grenades, poison, three attacks when not charging, relentless, WS and Init modifier to enemy, and if you play a big enough game they also get a toughness modifier.
The regular csm nurgle marine is not fearless, has less attacks, is going to strike at init 3, no poisen, and is leadership nine at best....
If your source of inspiration for heavy weapons is a death guard marine then you are doing csm wrong lol. Oblits, heldrakes, vindicators, and termies are much better in those roles.
If obsec is your thing fine, csm deqth guard are ok at that, but iron warriors are much better in that role. Stubborn and 6+ fnp is awesome for obsec.
Actually the nurgle chaos marines are fearless, and they get 5+ FNP and rerolling 1s on FNP. That's better than iron warriors.
Roknar wrote: The jury is still out on which khorne book is better. WE have way WAY more unit options thanks to being CSM proper and barely need transports, if at all. Daemonkin are tougher thanks to blood tithe fnp and summoning without needing psykers.
My initial thoughts were that WE hit harder and faster, but struggle staying in the game compared to daemonkin.
First turn charges aren't just possible with WE, they are likely to happen. Their artefacts are more aggressive than KDK.
On the other hand KDK don't need psychic scum in order to gain fnp and summon daemons etc. Their losses aren't flat losses like they are with WE.
With a CADWE get access to all forgeworld units, inlcuding vindicator laser destroyers, fire raptors and sicarans.
Unlike KDK they don't loose anything by adding such a CAD. Taking them alongside KDK would mean having less units with bftbg.
All in all I'd say they're not that different in power, but WE win for me due to being WElol.
After some thought I would have to go with WE as well. Im not a fan of KDK as you either summon generally bad demons or pump your army wide FnP. While army wide FNP is a nice thing, I feel the tricks WE bring and the broader unit selection more than make up for it. As many like to state the gorepack is probably the best thing in the codex formation wise and you can ally one into a WE force easily and cheaply. WE's just bring more flexibility and better relics (imho) while getting turn 1 charges (maybe). The problem is Zerkers are trash. Neither KdK or WE change that. Maelstrom of Gore makes them not trash for one turn. Then its back to being a overpriced fearless khorne marked marine.
Also, and as you have stated, if you have access to IA 13, WE are the hands down winner of the two. Between the very nice Khorne Legacies and some nice tanks to put them on.
CSM are much better but each legion is regulated to one or two tricks.
Death guard are my primary army, stop with this "csm units are cheap plague marines" nonsense.
Plague Marines are so much better its rediculous.
For 23 ppm, fearless, defensive and assault grenades, poison, three attacks when not charging, relentless, WS and Init modifier to enemy, and if you play a big enough game they also get a toughness modifier.
The regular csm nurgle marine is not fearless, has less attacks, is going to strike at init 3, no poisen, and is leadership nine at best....
If your source of inspiration for heavy weapons is a death guard marine then you are doing csm wrong lol. Oblits, heldrakes, vindicators, and termies are much better in those roles.
If obsec is your thing fine, csm deqth guard are ok at that, but iron warriors are much better in that role. Stubborn and 6+ fnp is awesome for obsec.
Actually the nurgle chaos marines are fearless, and they get 5+ FNP and rerolling 1s on FNP. That's better than iron warriors.
As it should be. You should not be playing Iron Warriors for FNP. You play IW to hide in forts and blow things up with templates. And if you get lucky with warlord traits....to make Oblits un-suck. However I think the IWs got shafted pretty hard in legions. Its biggest draw is re-rolling barrage and ordinance.....which our codex has all of two units that provide either. And one of them is really really bad (defiler). If the re-roll rule was changed to add in blast it would have been very nice and a big reason to take IWs outside of fluff reasons. or better yet, it should not have been a formation bonus but a legion trait so you could use IA 13 for tanks the IW should have in the first place. Its not as bad as rubric heavy TS or WBs, so that is saying something, I guess.
It's one of our few reliable delivery methods, joined by the Dreadclaw and Kharybdis. If you want to guarantee something gets where it needs to be, you need one of them. So, if you're running a deathstar of sorts, like the Alpha Legion's artefacts lend themselves to, you'll need something to be the party bus. DC doesn't have the capacity, and the Spartan is more bang for your buck. You can hope the Mindveil gets you into CC with the 11" average movement, but you're also potentially spending at least one round out in the open, being wounded on 2+ from grav, with only Shrouded and a 5++ standing between them and being turned into miniature black holes.
Try it at a tournament and see what happens. No one is going to agree to that spurious logic... You wont do it to me in a game, I promise you. But if you wanna' sell that snake oil, go right ahead.
That's how it works and that's how everyone plays it. It might be an oversight in the brb cause they didn't have ds+assault in mind but jumppackers do get fleet and HOW when they charge after ds cause RAW they don't use the kumppacks to deepstrike.
Try to depict screaming angry marines dropping flat into the ground from the sky to save their jumppacks fuel to deliver a bit more devastating blow to the enemy afterwards.
Roknar wrote: GW change their mind more often than most people change their knickers. Intent five years ago isn't much to go on tbh. And RAW in this case is pretty clear. Also despite having fixed abaddon in a previous faq for this editions codex and most people agreeing it's bollocks, people now play it as written regardless, so why should this be any different? Especially considering this is a choice.
Either way though, I think I made my position clear. I'd rather not derail the thread any further.
Does this count as derailing, since the result is that we figure out whether BL or NL is better at Raptor Talon? I think that if we use common sense a jump pack is actually used while deep striking, so it makes sense that it has already been "used".
Or you can run Black Legion against my Night Lords in some middleman country and we can see who Talons harder baby
Jancoran wrote: I'm so dumbfounded by the whole conversation that I think I'll disengage.
As the Marines WALK down from the sky...apparently. Lol.
Anywho.
No they're not. They come down from the skys crashing into the enemy with the momentum and impact of a speeding car. Or just straight into the enemy.
The latter results in a mishap in game rules and the former has you enter the game via deepstrike and then cause hammer of wrath attacks as you reach combat.
So the unit using deepstrike without counting as using their jumppack matches the lore to a T. In your case they come down with the fury of the skies and then just kinda waddle over into combat.
In my games I have always counted my talon as have using the jump pack to Deep Strike (as a common sense type of thing) so have never re-rolled charges on the same turn. However, after re-reading both rules I am now not so sure. In the jump unit entry it does not say in written rules that the unit uses its jump pack to deep strike. Only that it gains the DS special rule. This is against common sense as it is but it is RAW. Now if you look at the Deep Strike special rule it also does not state how a unit enters deep strike. To the game, RAW it does not matter how a unit gains the special rule only that it has it. So, RAW in mind, I would have to say that jump units can re-roll charges the turn they Deep Strike. I myself think this is just a poorly written rule and needs to be FAQ'd soon as common sense goes against RAW. At this point you need to follow tournament rulings on the subject when playing in one or if playing in a private or pug, you need to either come to a agreement or roll on it.
For the record I have to state I will at default be playing as the talon uses the packs to DS, as that is common sense, which I value more than RAW. But from now on I will bring this issue up in future games and come to a consensus before playing.
Also, when debating the BL vs NL raptor talon and whos is better, you need to factor in crusader. Its not a huge thing. But it can help if you choose not to shoot.
Thousand Sons got hosed. I feel everyone else got a free pass. Word Bearers have two non-bonuses to their CAD, but their Warlord Table and Grand Host are good. The Malefic Tome is cheap and utilitarian enough that I honestly don't care if the rest of the relics are trash, especially since it's still possible to take a Burning Brand should I want a second HQ. As a whole, I try not to include more than two CSMHQs when I can avoid it.
Summoning on 3+ rerollable is nice, since I feel it lets me reliably summon on 5 dice. An allied Paradox Sorcerer lets me auto-summon on 5 dice too. A ML 3 Sorcerer, ML2 Herald, and 2 units of Blue Horrors is 9 WC, plus a D6=10 at the minimum, meaning I can reliably reinforce with 2 Daemon units/turn, to offset other losses. Lore of Nurgle was legitimately buffed to be a valid support discipline, so I also don't feel as bad taking a Palanquin for the extra wounds.
Fun fact: Point for point, the Chaos Cultist throws down more melee attacks than any other model in the game. 4 points for 2 attacks, or 3 on the charge. (Ork Boyz get 4 on the charge for 6 points. So 1.5 pts per attack, instead of 1.33) They die before they bring most to bear, and don't hit hard, but they become dangerous when buffed, and Chaos has the powers to buff them. The humble Cultist becomes a lot scarier when it gets Poison, S4/T4, or Furious Charge.
TL did exactly what I wanted for CSM. Added cool flavour and provided enough tools to bring us up to KDK power level, which I think is about where factions should be.
ChazSexington wrote: DG, EC, and WE got buffed to maybe mid-tier. Lack of an ...ATSKNF equivalent has been one of the many issues (having to spend our HQ choices or an Icon to get it at absolute premium wasn't working). The rest got a buff, but not much.
I think the most overrated one is the Alpha Legion Insurgency Force. Nevermind the logistical nightmare of the sheer amount of models you have to paint, Cultists don't come anywhere near as cheap as they should, and Renegades to them better and cheaper, leaving Chosen and CSMs, which are awful.
Mindveil is a good artefact, but an Alpha Legion Insurgency Force cannot use a Spartan (or Kharybdis) as a delivery method unless you ally in a CAD, and then you lose Infiltrate. You can take a Dreadclaw for a pretty bad deathstar, but no point in taking the Alpha Legion Insurgency then.
I agree Alpha Legion are on the lower end of the power scale. I think a strong MSU army can be made but not necessarily better than other legions. The strength of the formation for me is in turn one shrouding; combine infiltrating chosen and CSM squads with a bike lord, bikes and drakescale plate daemon prince (both 2+ jink turn one, the DP even gets to re-roll that jink) then it's an army that gets to where it needs to be earlier in the game.
MagicJuggler wrote: Thousand Sons got hosed. I feel everyone else got a free pass. Word Bearers have two non-bonuses to their CAD, but their Warlord Table and Grand Host are good. The Malefic Tome is cheap and utilitarian enough that I honestly don't care if the rest of the relics are trash, especially since it's still possible to take a Burning Brand should I want a second HQ. As a whole, I try not to include more than two CSMHQs when I can avoid it.
Summoning on 3+ rerollable is nice, since I feel it lets me reliably summon on 5 dice. An allied Paradox Sorcerer lets me auto-summon on 5 dice too. A ML 3 Sorcerer, ML2 Herald, and 2 units of Blue Horrors is 9 WC, plus a D6=10 at the minimum, meaning I can reliably reinforce with 2 Daemon units/turn, to offset other losses. Lore of Nurgle was legitimately buffed to be a valid support discipline, so I also don't feel as bad taking a Palanquin for the extra wounds.
Fun fact: Point for point, the Chaos Cultist throws down more melee attacks than any other model in the game. 4 points for 2 attacks, or 3 on the charge. They die before they bring most to bear, and don't hit hard, but they become dangerous when buffed. The humble Cultist becomes a lot scarier when it gets Poison, S4/T4, or Furious Charge.
I think TS can build a strong list. It just does not include rubrics. And that is sad for many reasons. They certainly got shafted on the formation special rule of re-rolling ones. No one is going to take 9 units of terminators. No one. Even if they had the points. It was pointless to even include the rule.
But TS does have some very very good relics and scarab occult terminators are actualy a decent unit in conjunction with relics and buffing. I cannot comment on Tzzangers because I do not have any. On paper they look......ok when in their formation. Exalted sorcs are very good as they are pretty much a lower WS chaos lord + psyker in one unit with the added once per game blast-lance las cannon shot. Its really just rubrics and the formations that got shafted.
The problem with cultists, in this discussion anyhow, is that the legion meant to make the most use of them, does not. AL cultists cannot be marked. This hurts them badly. Furthermore AL cant take the lost and damned formation as core. Which is terrible. So as far as AL is concerned, cultists are not a good choice when using the formation and that kills the formation special rule. So yea, AL got shafted pretty hard to boot. Infil on chosen.cultists and marines is not worth much. Perhaps on plasma chosen if you have a glut of points to run them. Now you may get some mileage with a CaD and adding a lost and damned formation, but you need to ask if infil is worth giving up marks. In this case I do not think it is since you need MoK for those extra attacks and counter attack.
Table wrote: In my games I have always counted my talon as have using the jump pack to Deep Strike (as a common sense type of thing) so have never re-rolled charges on the same turn. However, after re-reading both rules I am now not so sure. In the jump unit entry it does not say in written rules that the unit uses its jump pack to deep strike. Only that it gains the DS special rule. This is against common sense as it is but it is RAW. Now if you look at the Deep Strike special rule it also does not state how a unit enters deep strike. To the game, RAW it does not matter how a unit gains the special rule only that it has it. So, RAW in mind, I would have to say that jump units can re-roll charges the turn they Deep Strike. I myself think this is just a poorly written rule and needs to be FAQ'd soon as common sense goes against RAW. At this point you need to follow tournament rulings on the subject when playing in one or if playing in a private or pug, you need to either come to a agreement or roll on it.
For the record I have to state I will at default be playing as the talon uses the packs to DS, as that is common sense, which I value more than RAW. But from now on I will bring this issue up in future games and come to a consensus before playing.
Also, when debating the BL vs NL raptor talon and whos is better, you need to factor in crusader. Its not a huge thing. But it can help if you choose not to shoot.
Crusader helps a talon quite a bit actually, in theory at least. The talon can reduce leadership to make it more likely the opponent fails their morale test and then crusader gives you +1-3 to your d6 for sweeping advances. That's better than the mark of slaanesh, since sweeping advances use unmodified iniative.
And I disagree that it makes more sense to use the jump pack. The lore has them jumping out of thunderhawks or so and they're really only need to use their jump packs to break the fall just before they hit the ground or maybe ea little bit of course correction.
That leaves them plenty of fuel to either crash straight into the enemy by activating their jump packs just before they land, having them hit the enemy right away or still with the momentum of landing just a few feet away while on a diagonal descent. Aka your assault move.
They don't have to use their jump packs to gain altitude like they do once they are on the ground, that part is covered by the thunderhawk. They are actually falling in a controlled manner as opposed to jumping.
Or in the case warp talons emerging from the warp charging with gusto. They don't need their jump packs to deepstrike at all.
Table wrote: In my games I have always counted my talon as have using the jump pack to Deep Strike (as a common sense type of thing) so have never re-rolled charges on the same turn. However, after re-reading both rules I am now not so sure. In the jump unit entry it does not say in written rules that the unit uses its jump pack to deep strike. Only that it gains the DS special rule. This is against common sense as it is but it is RAW. Now if you look at the Deep Strike special rule it also does not state how a unit enters deep strike. To the game, RAW it does not matter how a unit gains the special rule only that it has it. So, RAW in mind, I would have to say that jump units can re-roll charges the turn they Deep Strike. I myself think this is just a poorly written rule and needs to be FAQ'd soon as common sense goes against RAW. At this point you need to follow tournament rulings on the subject when playing in one or if playing in a private or pug, you need to either come to a agreement or roll on it.
For the record I have to state I will at default be playing as the talon uses the packs to DS, as that is common sense, which I value more than RAW. But from now on I will bring this issue up in future games and come to a consensus before playing.
Also, when debating the BL vs NL raptor talon and whos is better, you need to factor in crusader. Its not a huge thing. But it can help if you choose not to shoot.
Crusader helps a talon quite a bit actually, in theory at least. The talon can reduce leadership to make it more likely the opponent fails their morale test and then crusader gives you +1-3 to your d6 for sweeping advances. That's better than the mark of slaanesh, since sweeping advances use unmodified iniative.
And I disagree that it makes more sense to use the jump pack. The lore has them jumping out of thunderhawks or so and they're really only need to use their jump packs to break the fall just before they hit the ground or maybe ea little bit of course correction.
That leaves them plenty of fuel to either crash straight into the enemy by activating their jump packs just before they land, having them hit the enemy right away or still with the momentum of landing just a few feet away while on a diagonal descent.
They don't have to use their jump packs to gain altitude like they do once they are on the ground, that part is covered by the thunderhawk. They are actually falling in a controlled manner as opposed to jumping.
Well in the end, you certainly make a strong case. Ill give you that. And RAW you are correct. In my future games I will be talking this out before games or using the tournament ruling. Hopefully in 8th we get a better rule so this does not need to happen.
AL Cultists are good even on their own - without the big formation. Infiltrate is not a useless bonus there. Furthermore, it buffs the magic cultist deathstar significantly. No need to spend points on Ahriman or Huron - just go for more BL sorcs. Reliable infiltrate. Endless warlords. Mindveil.
That's a really good buff for competitive gamebreaking. And it's very characterful in fun games too.
koooaei wrote: AL Cultists are good even on their own - without the big formation. Infiltrate is not a useless bonus there. Furthermore, it buffs the magic cultist deathstar significantly. No need to spend points on Ahriman or Huron - just go for more BL sorcs. Reliable infiltrate. Endless warlords. Mindveil.
That's a really good buff for competitive gamebreaking. And it's very characterful in fun games too.
Infiltrate is never useless. But its impact is variable. AL would have been far better off if being able to core the lost and the damned. Currently, you are hard pressed to add the formation when you have filled out a warband and taken specialist units. Furthermore on an combat basis they are weaker than other legions cultist due to not being able to mark. A doble whammy to be sure. I think the only option for AL at this point is a CaD with added formations (which you get two of under ITC). It is not that AL is bad. It is that the AL has been hindered by stupid rules. But you find that in other legions as well so they are not alone.
Roknar wrote: The jury is still out on which khorne book is better. WE have way WAY more unit options thanks to being CSM proper and barely need transports, if at all. Daemonkin are tougher thanks to blood tithe fnp and summoning without needing psykers.
My initial thoughts were that WE hit harder and faster, but struggle staying in the game compared to daemonkin.
First turn charges aren't just possible with WE, they are likely to happen. Their artefacts are more aggressive than KDK.
On the other hand KDK don't need psychic scum in order to gain fnp and summon daemons etc. Their losses aren't flat losses like they are with WE.
With a CADWE get access to all forgeworld units, inlcuding vindicator laser destroyers, fire raptors and sicarans.
Unlike KDK they don't loose anything by adding such a CAD. Taking them alongside KDK would mean having less units with bftbg.
All in all I'd say they're not that different in power, but WE win for me due to being WElol.
After some thought I would have to go with WE as well. Im not a fan of KDK as you either summon generally bad demons or pump your army wide FnP. While army wide FNP is a nice thing, I feel the tricks WE bring and the broader unit selection more than make up for it. As many like to state the gorepack is probably the best thing in the codex formation wise and you can ally one into a WE force easily and cheaply. WE's just bring more flexibility and better relics (imho) while getting turn 1 charges (maybe). The problem is Zerkers are trash. Neither KdK or WE change that. Maelstrom of Gore makes them not trash for one turn. Then its back to being a overpriced fearless khorne marked marine.
Also, and as you have stated, if you have access to IA 13, WE are the hands down winner of the two. Between the very nice Khorne Legacies and some nice tanks to put them on.
CSM are much better but each legion is regulated to one or two tricks.
Death guard are my primary army, stop with this "csm units are cheap plague marines" nonsense.
Plague Marines are so much better its rediculous.
For 23 ppm, fearless, defensive and assault grenades, poison, three attacks when not charging, relentless, WS and Init modifier to enemy, and if you play a big enough game they also get a toughness modifier.
The regular csm nurgle marine is not fearless, has less attacks, is going to strike at init 3, no poisen, and is leadership nine at best....
If your source of inspiration for heavy weapons is a death guard marine then you are doing csm wrong lol. Oblits, heldrakes, vindicators, and termies are much better in those roles.
If obsec is your thing fine, csm deqth guard are ok at that, but iron warriors are much better in that role. Stubborn and 6+ fnp is awesome for obsec.
Actually the nurgle chaos marines are fearless, and they get 5+ FNP and rerolling 1s on FNP. That's better than iron warriors.
As it should be. You should not be playing Iron Warriors for FNP. You play IW to hide in forts and blow things up with templates. And if you get lucky with warlord traits....to make Oblits un-suck. However I think the IWs got shafted pretty hard in legions. Its biggest draw is re-rolling barrage and ordinance.....which our codex has all of two units that provide either. And one of them is really really bad (defiler). If the re-roll rule was changed to add in blast it would have been very nice and a big reason to take IWs outside of fluff reasons. or better yet, it should not have been a formation bonus but a legion trait so you could use IA 13 for tanks the IW should have in the first place. Its not as bad as rubric heavy TS or WBs, so that is saying something, I guess.
I was simply correcting the person who said nurgle CSM weren't fearless and didn't have FNP.
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Jancoran wrote: I'm so dumbfounded by the whole conversation that I think I'll disengage.
As the Marines WALK down from the sky...apparently. Lol.
Anywho.
You're acting like rules are decided by applying outside of game logic. Nowhere else's do you decide rules asked on what makes sense lore-wise, so why start here. Nowhere does it say that this counts as having used the jump pack movement. You can scoff all you want, but if you're going to start applying things that aren't in the rule because "it makes sense" you should be prepared to rewrite the entire rule book.
.. an ability that allows oblits to fire the same weapon every turn?
There's so much stuff in the TL book that it's entirely possible I missed that rule, but can you tell me where you saw that? It would be awesome if so! The "Cult of Destruction" Empyrionic Guidance Rituals state that they can fire twice in the same shooting phase (at the same target) but must do so using different attacks and cannot use a weapon that was fired in the previous shooting phase.
RE: the rest of the book -
Like others have said, we will need to give the book some time to see how it really shakes out. There is so much in this book that I fully expect some unanticipated combos popping up that could be surprisingly powerful. That said, GW is building a house on top of a completely wrecked foundation with this supplement. For me, one of the single biggest issues is how grossly over-costed 99% of the CSM units are. GW took an interesting approach here by trying to give you MORE for that same point cost (which is an interesting way of trying to make them more points efficient imo) in terms of being able to get free marks and free VOTLW for a lot of units, but I think the points values will still be what holds CSM back.
Over-all though, man do I LOVE this book. As a CSM player I honestly feel like this book gave me everything I've been wanting since the Gav Thorpe codex. Better late than never I suppose. Really though, we got legion rules, we got some very cool formations/decurions, and we got some very subtle things I would not have expected. For example, I've been saying since the 6th ED book came out that it was ridiculous to take away that LD point just so that they could charge us for VOTLW to get the point back. That's free now with a lot of these new formations. Little things like that really make me like this book. It also added back the flavor we've been missing for YEARS, and come on! How can you not be psyched about the psychic powers!
Over-all I don't know how much more powerful we got with this, but we certainly got just about everything we asked for and it's a MASSIVE improvement from where we were! Thumbs up from me for sure!
You don't, not really. There is an Iron Warriors Warlord trait that lets you choose the same weapon in consecutive shooting phases. So even with that, you still cant fire the same gun twice with a cult, but it does let you shoot the same combination in two consecutive turns.
So as far as I'm concerned it's not a thing at all, I really hate all this random rolling during the army building stage. Random Warlord traits especially rub me the wrong way as they are supposed to represent your warlord, aka they are a narrative thing. Random psychic powers, with random warp charges and random harnessing said warp charges only to get randomly denied just makes me roll my eyes.
Plus it just slows down the game for no reason and makes it harder to keep track of who has what if it changes every game, or sometimes even mid game !?
MagicJuggler wrote: Thousand Sons got hosed. I feel everyone else got a free pass. Word Bearers have two non-bonuses to their CAD, but their Warlord Table and Grand Host are good. The Malefic Tome is cheap and utilitarian enough that I honestly don't care if the rest of the relics are trash, especially since it's still possible to take a Burning Brand should I want a second HQ. As a whole, I try not to include more than two CSMHQs when I can avoid it.
Summoning on 3+ rerollable is nice, since I feel it lets me reliably summon on 5 dice. An allied Paradox Sorcerer lets me auto-summon on 5 dice too. A ML 3 Sorcerer, ML2 Herald, and 2 units of Blue Horrors is 9 WC, plus a D6=10 at the minimum, meaning I can reliably reinforce with 2 Daemon units/turn, to offset other losses. Lore of Nurgle was legitimately buffed to be a valid support discipline, so I also don't feel as bad taking a Palanquin for the extra wounds.
Fun fact: Point for point, the Chaos Cultist throws down more melee attacks than any other model in the game. 4 points for 2 attacks, or 3 on the charge. They die before they bring most to bear, and don't hit hard, but they become dangerous when buffed. The humble Cultist becomes a lot scarier when it gets Poison, S4/T4, or Furious Charge.
I think TS can build a strong list. It just does not include rubrics. And that is sad for many reasons. They certainly got shafted on the formation special rule of re-rolling ones. No one is going to take 9 units of terminators. No one. Even if they had the points. It was pointless to even include the rule.
But TS does have some very very good relics and scarab occult terminators are actualy a decent unit in conjunction with relics and buffing. I cannot comment on Tzzangers because I do not have any. On paper they look......ok when in their formation. Exalted sorcs are very good as they are pretty much a lower WS chaos lord + psyker in one unit with the added once per game blast-lance las cannon shot. Its really just rubrics and the formations that got shafted.
The problem with cultists, in this discussion anyhow, is that the legion meant to make the most use of them, does not. AL cultists cannot be marked. This hurts them badly. Furthermore AL cant take the lost and damned formation as core. Which is terrible. So as far as AL is concerned, cultists are not a good choice when using the formation and that kills the formation special rule. So yea, AL got shafted pretty hard to boot. Infil on chosen.cultists and marines is not worth much. Perhaps on plasma chosen if you have a glut of points to run them. Now you may get some mileage with a CaD and adding a lost and damned formation, but you need to ask if infil is worth giving up marks. In this case I do not think it is since you need MoK for those extra attacks and counter attack.
This is why I said 1k Sons got hosed. They're really "Magnus and Friends", aka why you can build renegade lists like "Magnus, Typhus, Plague Zombies, Heldrakes, and Daemon Warp Charge batteries" or so. The actual 1k Sons and Tzaangors and stuff themselves are actually pretty crummy. Like Warpflamers for example. I always wanted to pay 7 points to replace an AP 3 Boltgun on a Slow and Purposeful model with an AP 4 flamer that occasionally gives my foe Feel No Pain. Thanks for an option nobody will ever use, GW, especially since anyone using Helm of the Third Eye is probably attaching themselves to a MOT unit of Oblits anyway.
The Tzaangor Formation is actually fairly broken, and not in a good way. Only the Tzaangors themselves get run and charge. This means you can't actually attach anyone to their unit, even their Formation's sorcerer, meaning they're not fearless. Meaning they could hurt a few Eldar scatbikes or so conceivably...assuming they get there. Then the Wraithknight mops them up.
Marking Cultists reduces their efficiency. You better have a good reason for it. Poxwalker Cultists in a Vectorium are a good trick for example. Mark of Khorne by itself isn't, and here's why:
A Cultist pays 2 points for each attack base, so 4 points, 2 attacks.
A Mark of Khorne is 2 points on a Cultist. 6 points, 2 attacks, 4 on a charge or 3 when counter-attacked.
If you wish to engage multiple units at once (and you probably do, as Cultist units can get rather large anyway), you're making a Disordered Charge, and thus don't get the bonuses from Rage, +1 attack on the charge, etc. Quite literally you're paying points to handicap yourself by justifying attacking only a single unit at a time as otherwise you're paying points for nothing. For every 2 Cultists with MoK, you could have just taken another Cultist.
koooaei wrote: Why would you want to mark cultists? They end up pretty overpriced.
THANK YOU. Out of everything I've seen in this thread, this was by far the worst complaint I saw.
If you care that much, Typhus still turns them into Zombies. Yeah they won't get FNP against Scatterbikes but who cares?
Marked cultists have their place. Its not a rock hard must take and I nor anyone has said differently. Sometimes I find myself in agreement with your posts, this time I do not. But it is interesting that you complain about marks costing to much on cultists but then proceed to tell us to bring typhus to make up for it.
The point I myself am making is that the AL , which should produce the best cultist lists by lore, is missing many options when it comes to said cultists. While others have stated AL is bad, I have not. I am simply asserting that it to bad GW missed the boat on this one.
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Roknar wrote: You don't, not really. There is an Iron Warriors Warlord trait that lets you choose the same weapon in consecutive shooting phases. So even with that, you still cant fire the same gun twice with a cult, but it does let you shoot the same combination in two consecutive turns.
So as far as I'm concerned it's not a thing at all, I really hate all this random rolling during the army building stage. Random Warlord traits especially rub me the wrong way as they are supposed to represent your warlord, aka they are a narrative thing. Random psychic powers, with random warp charges and random harnessing said warp charges only to get randomly denied just makes me roll my eyes.
Plus it just slows down the game for no reason and makes it harder to keep track of who has what if it changes every game, or sometimes even mid game !?
One of my biggest hopes for 8th is to make warlord traits chosen instead of random. I doubt this will happen.
MagicJuggler wrote: Thousand Sons got hosed. I feel everyone else got a free pass. Word Bearers have two non-bonuses to their CAD, but their Warlord Table and Grand Host are good. The Malefic Tome is cheap and utilitarian enough that I honestly don't care if the rest of the relics are trash, especially since it's still possible to take a Burning Brand should I want a second HQ. As a whole, I try not to include more than two CSMHQs when I can avoid it.
Summoning on 3+ rerollable is nice, since I feel it lets me reliably summon on 5 dice. An allied Paradox Sorcerer lets me auto-summon on 5 dice too. A ML 3 Sorcerer, ML2 Herald, and 2 units of Blue Horrors is 9 WC, plus a D6=10 at the minimum, meaning I can reliably reinforce with 2 Daemon units/turn, to offset other losses. Lore of Nurgle was legitimately buffed to be a valid support discipline, so I also don't feel as bad taking a Palanquin for the extra wounds.
Fun fact: Point for point, the Chaos Cultist throws down more melee attacks than any other model in the game. 4 points for 2 attacks, or 3 on the charge. They die before they bring most to bear, and don't hit hard, but they become dangerous when buffed. The humble Cultist becomes a lot scarier when it gets Poison, S4/T4, or Furious Charge.
I think TS can build a strong list. It just does not include rubrics. And that is sad for many reasons. They certainly got shafted on the formation special rule of re-rolling ones. No one is going to take 9 units of terminators. No one. Even if they had the points. It was pointless to even include the rule.
But TS does have some very very good relics and scarab occult terminators are actualy a decent unit in conjunction with relics and buffing. I cannot comment on Tzzangers because I do not have any. On paper they look......ok when in their formation. Exalted sorcs are very good as they are pretty much a lower WS chaos lord + psyker in one unit with the added once per game blast-lance las cannon shot. Its really just rubrics and the formations that got shafted.
The problem with cultists, in this discussion anyhow, is that the legion meant to make the most use of them, does not. AL cultists cannot be marked. This hurts them badly. Furthermore AL cant take the lost and damned formation as core. Which is terrible. So as far as AL is concerned, cultists are not a good choice when using the formation and that kills the formation special rule. So yea, AL got shafted pretty hard to boot. Infil on chosen.cultists and marines is not worth much. Perhaps on plasma chosen if you have a glut of points to run them. Now you may get some mileage with a CaD and adding a lost and damned formation, but you need to ask if infil is worth giving up marks. In this case I do not think it is since you need MoK for those extra attacks and counter attack.
This is why I said 1k Sons got hosed. They're really "Magnus and Friends", aka why you can build renegade lists like "Magnus, Typhus, Plague Zombies, Heldrakes, and Daemon Warp Charge batteries" or so. The actual 1k Sons and Tzaangors and stuff themselves are actually pretty crummy. Like Warpflamers for example. I always wanted to pay 7 points to replace an AP 3 Boltgun on a Slow and Purposeful model with an AP 4 flamer that occasionally gives my foe Feel No Pain. Thanks for an option nobody will ever use, GW, especially since anyone using Helm of the Third Eye is probably attaching themselves to a MOT unit of Oblits anyway.
The Tzaangor Formation is actually fairly broken, and not in a good way. Only the Tzaangors themselves get run and charge. This means you can't actually attach anyone to their unit, even their Formation's sorcerer, meaning they're not fearless. Meaning they could hurt a few Eldar scatbikes or so conceivably...assuming they get there. Then the Wraithknight mops them up.
Marking Cultists reduces their efficiency. You better have a good reason for it. Poxwalker Cultists in a Vectorium are a good trick for example. Mark of Khorne by itself isn't, and here's why:
A Cultist pays 2 points for each attack base, so 4 points, 2 attacks.
A Mark of Khorne is 2 points on a Cultist. 6 points, 2 attacks, 4 on a charge or 3 when counter-attacked.
If you wish to engage multiple units at once (and you probably do, as Cultist units can get rather large anyway), you're making a Disordered Charge, and thus don't get the bonuses from Rage, +1 attack on the charge, etc. Quite literally you're paying points to handicap yourself by justifying attacking only a single unit at a time as otherwise you're paying points for nothing. For every 2 Cultists with MoK, you could have just taken another Cultist.
Good reply. I have to disagree with you on a few minor points. I do think you can make a strong TS list without dipping into other legions. You just wont be using more rubrics than is the bare minimum if at all. I am a fan of the occult terminators and I do not think you can argue that at worst, they are a decent unit. Once more, I cannot comment on tzzangors. I would not run them. But we can agree that GW was smoking some serious herb when writing the rules for 1ksons. Alot of wtf moments when reading Wrath of Magnus were had. The 7 point flamers probably being the most wtf moment. Despite it all, you can fashion some good solid lists with 1ksons. It could have just been SOOOO much better. And that is my overall feeling with TL. Alot of missed marks to give chaos players some rock solid lists. We are destined for b grade I am afraid. Lets hope 8th proves me wrong.
I can at least see the case for the Scarab Occult as a support-piece. The only thing that annoys me is that the Sorcerer has the Champion of Chaos rule, and you can't sub the unit into any formation that requires Terminators (like a Black Legion Warband or Chaos Warband). You'll ideally want shoot your Inferno Boltguns first before using your Specials, because the last thing you want is your expensive ML 2 Sorcerer to turn into a spawn from an unlucky roll, just because he shot a Tactical Sergeant alongside the rest of his unit!
Other than that, I have some issues with the Alpha Legion Warlord table being trash (and having one result that arguably breaks the game), and Iron Warrior relics being trash, but other than that I'm pleasantly satisfied.
Roknar wrote: The jury is still out on which khorne book is better. WE have way WAY more unit options thanks to being CSM proper and barely need transports, if at all. Daemonkin are tougher thanks to blood tithe fnp and summoning without needing psykers.
My initial thoughts were that WE hit harder and faster, but struggle staying in the game compared to daemonkin.
First turn charges aren't just possible with WE, they are likely to happen. Their artefacts are more aggressive than KDK.
On the other hand KDK don't need psychic scum in order to gain fnp and summon daemons etc. Their losses aren't flat losses like they are with WE.
With a CADWE get access to all forgeworld units, inlcuding vindicator laser destroyers, fire raptors and sicarans.
Unlike KDK they don't loose anything by adding such a CAD. Taking them alongside KDK would mean having less units with bftbg.
All in all I'd say they're not that different in power, but WE win for me due to being WElol.
Personnaly i'm thinking of a WE Warband+with a CAD to field a Land Raider , Mauler and a minimum ally KDK to get the Soulgrinder, wich is far better then a defiler for much less of the price.
An alternative would be to take a Fist of the Gods, for the raider and 2-3 Vindis.
Wouldn't it be easier in that case to settle for a plague hulk? They're almost as good as a soulgrinder, but you wouldn't need to get all the min req units for KDK?
Nurgle and Khorne aren't sworn enemies so it's not a complete fluff abomination at least.
WHile the Plague hulk mouth weapon is a AP3 template.
The Rot cannon is just Str6, it as rending and its an AP3 ordinance weapon, but that low Strength, ugh...
I take the Soulgrinder because its still a Str8 ordinance weapon, wich with some luck can still glance AV14, but that Rot cannon ca only glance AV13 at best.
Yea, but....you pay one less HQ and a troop to get it lol. Enough points for a laser destroyer rapier or so.
The soulgrinder is totally better, but it's a lot more expensive in comparison since you already plan on taking a CAD.
So I just realized looking through the Thousand Sons entry that it somehow managed to make Rubric Marines even worse! While in the past you could give the Sorcerer a Force axe and use him as a monster hunter a sort, you can't even do that anymore!
koooaei wrote: AL Cultists are good even on their own - without the big formation. Infiltrate is not a useless bonus there. Furthermore, it buffs the magic cultist deathstar significantly. No need to spend points on Ahriman or Huron - just go for more BL sorcs. Reliable infiltrate. Endless warlords. Mindveil.
That's a really good buff for competitive gamebreaking. And it's very characterful in fun games too.
Infiltrate is never useless. But its impact is variable. AL would have been far better off if being able to core the lost and the damned. Currently, you are hard pressed to add the formation when you have filled out a warband and taken specialist units. Furthermore on an combat basis they are weaker than other legions cultist due to not being able to mark. A doble whammy to be sure. I think the only option for AL at this point is a CaD with added formations (which you get two of under ITC). It is not that AL is bad. It is that the AL has been hindered by stupid rules. But you find that in other legions as well so they are not alone.
koooaei wrote: Why would you want to mark cultists? They end up pretty overpriced.
A Cultist Deathstar? What? And BL wouldn't be able to join the Infiltrators and can't be possible warlords as they're not taken as part of the detachment.
Mindveil is good in a CAD because you may be able to get your Terminators/Chosen into CC. However, Alpha Legion CAD Chosen don't get Infiltrate... So you're going Alpha Legion specifically for the Mindveil. Don't get me wrong, it's a great artefact, but it doesn't work within the list. You will have to survive a round of murderous, black hole creating-levels of grav fire. CSM terminators don't survive that, and neither will characters in Drakescale Plate.
For Cultists, MoS is an excellent choice against SMs and IG.
The new Traitor Legions supplement is a fairly big step up for CSM. I've mainly focussed on the EC content, but having looked through Death Guard I'm a lil bit jelly of their ability to move and fire heavy weapons as if they were standing still. The power might have been better suited to EC as speed is part of their game I feel. No matter; focussing on what EC did get that is quickly forgotten. Combat Drugs, Fearless, 4+ FnP and the ability to strike despite getting killed is awesome.
The only thing that bothers me is that it became much harder for me to build the army I want, if I wish to employ the Legion tactics. Taking Kakophoni, a Warband and a spawn auxillery basically fills my army up due to it all being basically mandatory, unless I am willing to forego some of the bonuses... which kind of defeats the purpose. We'll see more mono builds for each Legion I think, but at least there's a mono build for every Legion instead of a mono build for the entire codex.
Also yeeaaaaaah! Blissgiver is back baby! Love that thing.
The Rot cannon is just Str6, it as rending and its an AP3 ordinance weapon, but that low Strength, ugh...
I take the Soulgrinder because its still a Str8 ordinance weapon, wich with some luck can still glance AV14, but that Rot cannon ca only glance AV13 at best.
If it was Str7, then yeah i would consider it.
The rot cannon can hurt up to AV15. if you roll a 6 for armor pen you get to do an extra d3 to your roll
Also the plague hulk is 30 pts cheaper then a Nurgle Grinder with phlegm, that is a significant savings
BL and DG are as good as any C:SM chapter aside from White Scars. Night Lords, Iron Warriors and World Eaters got some pretty intense boosts too. Basically everything is LD 10 and gets a lot of free USRs from the "Decurions". Unless the Loyalists bring Skyhammer or gladius grav spam they're going to get a good run for their money.
We'll see if they get "competitive" but I've seen (and run) some pretty foul stuff at my LGS' and it hasn't even been out a full 2 weeks (which probably means that the true potential hasn't been unveiled yet).
The only thing that bothers me is that it became much harder for me to build the army I want, if I wish to employ the Legion tactics. Taking Kakophoni, a Warband and a spawn auxillery basically fills my army up due to it all being basically mandatory, unless I am willing to forego some of the bonuses... which kind of defeats the purpose. We'll see more mono builds for each Legion I think, but at least there's a mono build for every Legion instead of a mono build for the entire codex.
Honestly, the formation benefits for EC aren't that great. You could still field a CAD and get the other special rules provided you follow the restrictions. That's what most of the players in my area are doing. The Decurions all have a lot of points tied up in the Warband or similar, so most of the CSM folks here have just gone CAD and skipped the formation command benefits.Alpha Legion, Black Legion and Death Guard being the exceptions - those command benefits are all pretty impressive.
Take away the most broken bits of loyalists and they've actually managed to bring a sub-par army up to balance
Now all they need to do is limit Eldar Jetbikes to 1 heavy weapon per 3, make 'Flickerjump' less powerful, re-cost some MCs/GMCs, give the Dark Eldar some good standard formations for their non-coven stuff, sort out whatever's wrong with Orks and Tyranids and we're good!
Making the most of Iron Warriors really comes down to fortifications... Do you guys think the different Wall of Martyr sections upgraded with Battle cannons are worth it?
Take away the most broken bits of loyalists and they've actually managed to bring a sub-par army up to balance
Now all they need to do is limit Eldar Jetbikes to 1 heavy weapon per 3, make 'Flickerjump' less powerful, re-cost some MCs/GMCs, give the Dark Eldar some good standard formations for their non-coven stuff, sort out whatever's wrong with Orks and Tyranids and we're good!
The only thing that bothers me is that it became much harder for me to build the army I want, if I wish to employ the Legion tactics. Taking Kakophoni, a Warband and a spawn auxillery basically fills my army up due to it all being basically mandatory, unless I am willing to forego some of the bonuses... which kind of defeats the purpose. We'll see more mono builds for each Legion I think, but at least there's a mono build for every Legion instead of a mono build for the entire codex.
THIS. So much this.
Compared to any other Decurions, especially Necrons, it's ridiculous how many minimum points are already tied up in the core formations.
The Decurions all have a lot of points tied up in the Warband or similar, so most of the CSM folks here have just gone CAD and skipped the formation command benefits.Alpha Legion, Black Legion and Death Guard being the exceptions - those command benefits are all pretty impressive.
Even Black Legion players are struggling to actually pull the speartip strike off within the point limits of normal games. We gotta spend points and risk to NOT have the reserves scatter (dimensional key on lord with risky first turn deep strike and charge) and to let them arrive on time (aegis with comms relay) and we need enough deep strikers to actually get something done in the end as well. The Black Legion core formations are just too much of a point investment. So I see Black Legion Speartip players having to choose between relying on the scatter die, the reserve rolls or having too little momentum.
Take away the most broken bits of loyalists and they've actually managed to bring a sub-par army up to balance
Now all they need to do is limit Eldar Jetbikes to 1 heavy weapon per 3, make 'Flickerjump' less powerful, re-cost some MCs/GMCs, give the Dark Eldar some good standard formations for their non-coven stuff, sort out whatever's wrong with Orks and Tyranids and we're good!
The only thing that bothers me is that it became much harder for me to build the army I want, if I wish to employ the Legion tactics. Taking Kakophoni, a Warband and a spawn auxillery basically fills my army up due to it all being basically mandatory, unless I am willing to forego some of the bonuses... which kind of defeats the purpose. We'll see more mono builds for each Legion I think, but at least there's a mono build for every Legion instead of a mono build for the entire codex.
Honestly, the formation benefits for EC aren't that great. You could still field a CAD and get the other special rules provided you follow the restrictions. That's what most of the players in my area are doing. The Decurions all have a lot of points tied up in the Warband or similar, so most of the CSM folks here have just gone CAD and skipped the formation command benefits.Alpha Legion, Black Legion and Death Guard being the exceptions - those command benefits are all pretty impressive.
This, pretty much. Problem for BL already stated, but they can at least take the Cyclopia Cabal in their decurion. Alpha Legion bonuses are for the already sub-par Chosen, CSMs, and Cultists. I'm actually beginning to think the Alpha Legion ended up with the short straw, because at least Daemon-summoning Word Bearers can work.
Also, CADs can take FW. Rapiers, Fire Raptors, and Spartans, oh my!
Table wrote:I think TS can build a strong list. It just does not include rubrics. And that is sad for many reasons. They certainly got shafted on the formation special rule of re-rolling ones. No one is going to take 9 units of terminators. No one. Even if they had the points. It was pointless to even include the rule.
But TS does have some very very good relics and scarab occult terminators are actualy a decent unit in conjunction with relics and buffing. I cannot comment on Tzzangers because I do not have any. On paper they look......ok when in their formation. Exalted sorcs are very good as they are pretty much a lower WS chaos lord + psyker in one unit with the added once per game blast-lance las cannon shot. Its really just rubrics and the formations that got shafted.
If you can build a strong TS list that isn't just Magnus shoehorned into a Daemons list then you'll be the first and I'd love to see what you come up with. The closest I can get is maxing out a War Cabal at 1850 with no Aux choice because I don't have any points left and it relies so heavily on the handfull of BRB table rolls that it's very easy to not even have a chance vs quite a few armies. I keep coming back to a Sekmet Conclave since it's got no Rubricae tax (sad that not only is their iconic unit only available in 1 formation but that it's still so bad that it's a tax rather than something to build a list around, but all the cult units suck in their own dex now, so at least it's not just us), but then, without re-rolling 1's, they're still just a big points sink. A T5 points sink I'll grant you, but a points sink regardless.
Scarabs aren't decent at all and I'm not sure how you can think that they are. They're better than rubricae, but not by a lot and that's already a pretty low bar to pass. Tzaangors are pretty trash and the best thing to be said for them is that at least you don't have to pay the breyherd (unit sarge) tax, but MoT cultists are 10 points cheaper and have a ranged attack. While I love 3W Sorcerors as much as the next guy, MoT and the strange restriction from tvarious wargear hurts as does the fact that the orbital knockoff's just worse in every way compared to the loyalists version, not to mention being pretty useless unless you're on a disk (which you probably are anyway because T5) or in a unit of rubricae for SnP, but rubrics are a terrible choice, so why would you bother?
MagicJuggler wrote:The Tzaangor Formation is actually fairly broken, and not in a good way. Only the Tzaangors themselves get run and charge. This means you can't actually attach anyone to their unit, even their Formation's sorcerer, meaning they're not fearless. Meaning they could hurt a few Eldar scatbikes or so conceivably...assuming they get there. Then the Wraithknight mops them up.
Actually, you can fix it if you give the Sorceror a disk as then he can't run when the tzaangors do (his choice would be to turbo boost instead, which you obviously don't want) and then since he hasn't run and they have permission to run & charge in their formation, they can drag him into combat while he makes them fearless. Having said that, this only works for 1 unit and you'll lose fleet if a sorc from outside their formation joins them, but you can do the same trick with putting exalteds on disks to still allow run and charge while giving the exalted a bunch of relatively cheap ablative wounds. They're not even that bad as long as you roll div and get forewarning and if you also get misfortune, they can be downright terrifying. Their formation is even cheap enough that you can max it out with individual spawn to get your rr1's ability. Hmmm... Maybe a maxed out Tzaangor host and an Ahriman's Exiles or War Coven to provide the Fearless Disk Sorcs could work?
Table wrote:Marked cultists have their place. Its not a rock hard must take and I nor anyone has said differently. Sometimes I find myself in agreement with your posts, this time I do not. But it is interesting that you complain about marks costing to much on cultists but then proceed to tell us to bring typhus to make up for it.
Marked cultists have no place at all. I4 means they're still getting killed the instant they step out of cover, or even while they're still in cover since every remotely competative army tends to have multiple ignores cover options to deal with T3 6+ infantry hiding in cover and even when they do make it to combat, they're still getting murdered against almost anything you care to name and since they're not fearless, they're going to be swept, not to mention their lack of grenades means that their I4 is wasted anyway. T4 still doesn't have a save and doesn't matter because everything is Str6 and wounds them on 2's just the same as if they were T3 and again, even if they get to combat, they're now getting butchered before they strike even if they're not charging into cover, meaning even less str3 attacks to try and stave off that inevitable sweeping advance roll, ignoring their T4. A 6++ means nothing at all, and even with saving 1 out of 6 shots, you could have simply bought another cultist for the points that you saved and had some extra attacks for no extra points. Rage does nothing if you multicharge and you're still Str3, T3, I3 with no grenades and you're not fearless. Yes, a unit of 35 MoK cultists has a bajillion attacks on the charge, but when was the last time you saw anyone actually get any cultists into combat, let alone that many? And once, again, for the points you paid, you could have had more cultists, with more wounds for the same price. At best, marked cultists break even with their unmarked brethren. On top of all this, cultists are for min detatchment requirements 95% of the time, why are you wasting points on marks?
I do think you can make a strong TS list without dipping into other legions. You just wont be using more rubrics than is the bare minimum if at all. I am a fan of the occult terminators and I do not think you can argue that at worst, they are a decent unit. Once more, I cannot comment on tzzangors. I would not run them. But we can agree that GW was smoking some serious herb when writing the rules for 1ksons. Alot of wtf moments when reading Wrath of Magnus were had. The 7 point flamers probably being the most wtf moment. Despite it all, you can fashion some good solid lists with 1ksons. It could have just been SOOOO much better. And that is my overall feeling with TL. Alot of missed marks to give chaos players some rock solid lists. We are destined for b grade I am afraid. Lets hope 8th proves me wrong.
I can very easily argue that Scarabs aren't good. Take a look at tactical terminators. They're 35 ppm and come with stormbolter/powerfist, already wildly outclassing out chumps with combi bolter/power sword for 40ppm. Their cyclone missiles are 20 points, have 48" range, have a frag option and can be fired in conjunction with the stormbolter while our helfyres are also 20 points but are only 24" range, have no frags and can't be fired as well as the combi bolter. How often do you see people taking tactical termies, or even saying that they're decent? Never, that's how often. Yes, the scarab sarge is significantly better, but he's also 55 more points than the tactical sarge and when the rest of the army you're in is already wildy overcosted, 250 points for worse tactical terminators isn't a good deal. The 2 things Scarabs have going for them is that they're better in almost every way than Rubricae for their points (not hard) and that they become effectively immune to small arms fire if you can max out one of their formations (basically the War Cabal is the only choice, but it can be done in 1850) where they basically become a mini lychstar.
MagicJuggler wrote:So I just realized looking through the Thousand Sons entry that it somehow managed to make Rubric Marines even worse! While in the past you could give the Sorcerer a Force axe and use him as a monster hunter a sort, you can't even do that anymore!
GW, why?
Sweet jeebus, I thought the same, but I totally missed that. That's pretty rude seeing as a) everyone converted them to have axes because duh and b ) The old upgrade kit finecast sorceror comes with a power sword and no other options, so it's a pretty rude move to suddenly make them illegal. Man, I used to rely on those force axes to actually make them moderately worrying to MC's. Now what the hell am I going to do (apart from stop taking Rubricae at all when I can help it)?
Table wrote:I think TS can build a strong list. It just does not include rubrics. And that is sad for many reasons. They certainly got shafted on the formation special rule of re-rolling ones. No one is going to take 9 units of terminators. No one. Even if they had the points. It was pointless to even include the rule.
But TS does have some very very good relics and scarab occult terminators are actualy a decent unit in conjunction with relics and buffing. I cannot comment on Tzzangers because I do not have any. On paper they look......ok when in their formation. Exalted sorcs are very good as they are pretty much a lower WS chaos lord + psyker in one unit with the added once per game blast-lance las cannon shot. Its really just rubrics and the formations that got shafted.
If you can build a strong TS list that isn't just Magnus shoehorned into a Daemons list then you'll be the first and I'd love to see what you come up with. The closest I can get is maxing out a War Cabal at 1850 with no Aux choice because I don't have any points left and it relies so heavily on the handfull of BRB table rolls that it's very easy to not even have a chance vs quite a few armies. I keep coming back to a Sekmet Conclave since it's got no Rubricae tax (sad that not only is their iconic unit only available in 1 formation but that it's still so bad that it's a tax rather than something to build a list around, but all the cult units suck in their own dex now, so at least it's not just us), but then, without re-rolling 1's, they're still just a big points sink. A T5 points sink I'll grant you, but a points sink regardless.
Scarabs aren't decent at all and I'm not sure how you can think that they are. They're better than rubricae, but not by a lot and that's already a pretty low bar to pass. Tzaangors are pretty trash and the best thing to be said for them is that at least you don't have to pay the breyherd (unit sarge) tax, but MoT cultists are 10 points cheaper and have a ranged attack. While I love 3W Sorcerors as much as the next guy, MoT and the strange restriction from tvarious wargear hurts as does the fact that the orbital knockoff's just worse in every way compared to the loyalists version, not to mention being pretty useless unless you're on a disk (which you probably are anyway because T5) or in a unit of rubricae for SnP, but rubrics are a terrible choice, so why would you bother?
MagicJuggler wrote:The Tzaangor Formation is actually fairly broken, and not in a good way. Only the Tzaangors themselves get run and charge. This means you can't actually attach anyone to their unit, even their Formation's sorcerer, meaning they're not fearless. Meaning they could hurt a few Eldar scatbikes or so conceivably...assuming they get there. Then the Wraithknight mops them up.
Actually, you can fix it if you give the Sorceror a disk as then he can't run when the tzaangors do (his choice would be to turbo boost instead, which you obviously don't want) and then since he hasn't run and they have permission to run & charge in their formation, they can drag him into combat while he makes them fearless. Having said that, this only works for 1 unit and you'll lose fleet if a sorc from outside their formation joins them, but you can do the same trick with putting exalteds on disks to still allow run and charge while giving the exalted a bunch of relatively cheap ablative wounds. They're not even that bad as long as you roll div and get forewarning and if you also get misfortune, they can be downright terrifying. Their formation is even cheap enough that you can max it out with individual spawn to get your rr1's ability. Hmmm... Maybe a maxed out Tzaangor host and an Ahriman's Exiles or War Coven to provide the Fearless Disk Sorcs could work?
Table wrote:Marked cultists have their place. Its not a rock hard must take and I nor anyone has said differently. Sometimes I find myself in agreement with your posts, this time I do not. But it is interesting that you complain about marks costing to much on cultists but then proceed to tell us to bring typhus to make up for it.
Marked cultists have no place at all. I4 means they're still getting killed the instant they step out of cover, or even while they're still in cover since every remotely competative army tends to have multiple ignores cover options to deal with T3 6+ infantry hiding in cover and even when they do make it to combat, they're still getting murdered against almost anything you care to name and since they're not fearless, they're going to be swept, not to mention their lack of grenades means that their I4 is wasted anyway. T4 still doesn't have a save and doesn't matter because everything is Str6 and wounds them on 2's just the same as if they were T3 and again, even if they get to combat, they're now getting butchered before they strike even if they're not charging into cover, meaning even less str3 attacks to try and stave off that inevitable sweeping advance roll, ignoring their T4. A 6++ means nothing at all, and even with saving 1 out of 6 shots, you could have simply bought another cultist for the points that you saved and had some extra attacks for no extra points. Rage does nothing if you multicharge and you're still Str3, T3, I3 with no grenades and you're not fearless. Yes, a unit of 35 MoK cultists has a bajillion attacks on the charge, but when was the last time you saw anyone actually get any cultists into combat, let alone that many? And once, again, for the points you paid, you could have had more cultists, with more wounds for the same price. At best, marked cultists break even with their unmarked brethren. On top of all this, cultists are for min detatchment requirements 95% of the time, why are you wasting points on marks?
I do think you can make a strong TS list without dipping into other legions. You just wont be using more rubrics than is the bare minimum if at all. I am a fan of the occult terminators and I do not think you can argue that at worst, they are a decent unit. Once more, I cannot comment on tzzangors. I would not run them. But we can agree that GW was smoking some serious herb when writing the rules for 1ksons. Alot of wtf moments when reading Wrath of Magnus were had. The 7 point flamers probably being the most wtf moment. Despite it all, you can fashion some good solid lists with 1ksons. It could have just been SOOOO much better. And that is my overall feeling with TL. Alot of missed marks to give chaos players some rock solid lists. We are destined for b grade I am afraid. Lets hope 8th proves me wrong.
I can very easily argue that Scarabs aren't good. Take a look at tactical terminators. They're 35 ppm and come with stormbolter/powerfist, already wildly outclassing out chumps with combi bolter/power sword for 40ppm. Their cyclone missiles are 20 points, have 48" range, have a frag option and can be fired in conjunction with the stormbolter while our helfyres are also 20 points but are only 24" range, have no frags and can't be fired as well as the combi bolter. How often do you see people taking tactical termies, or even saying that they're decent? Never, that's how often. Yes, the scarab sarge is significantly better, but he's also 55 more points than the tactical sarge and when the rest of the army you're in is already wildy overcosted, 250 points for worse tactical terminators isn't a good deal. The 2 things Scarabs have going for them is that they're better in almost every way than Rubricae for their points (not hard) and that they become effectively immune to small arms fire if you can max out one of their formations (basically the War Cabal is the only choice, but it can be done in 1850) where they basically become a mini lychstar.
MagicJuggler wrote:So I just realized looking through the Thousand Sons entry that it somehow managed to make Rubric Marines even worse! While in the past you could give the Sorcerer a Force axe and use him as a monster hunter a sort, you can't even do that anymore!
GW, why?
Sweet jeebus, I thought the same, but I totally missed that. That's pretty rude seeing as a) everyone converted them to have axes because duh and b ) The old upgrade kit finecast sorceror comes with a power sword and no other options, so it's a pretty rude move to suddenly make them illegal. Man, I used to rely on those force axes to actually make them moderately worrying to MC's. Now what the hell am I going to do (apart from stop taking Rubricae at all when I can help it)?
I was going to respond to many points until I read where you wrote that everything is str6. I try to be as polite as possible and take this in mind when I say the following. A good half of your points are conjecture at best and exaggeration at worst. If you can clean up your points to edit these bits out I would be more than glad to have a discourse on the issues you stated simply because I enjoy doing so. But the whole dakka hyperbole whirlpool got old for me about a month ago.
Edit. I have grossly exaggerated the amount of hyperbole you have set forth. Its not half. About 20% perhaps . Im running a fever right now soam a bit cranky. Ill get back to you on the scarabs + warcouncil when im better. Very sorry for that flippant reply.
I don't know if Traitor Legions will make CSM "good" so to speak, but it's given them the shot in the arm that the army desperately needed. They're certainly better off now than they were before Traitors Legions (imo)
War Kitten wrote: I don't know if Traitor Legions will make CSM "good" so to speak, but it's given them the shot in the arm that the army desperately needed. They're certainly better off now than they were before Traitors Legions (imo)
My 12 year old just used it to fight a pretty good Grey Knights player who is no noob. He killed about 80% of the enemy army and my son REALLY is new to the game. So that was encouraging. Using an army he didnt write in a game he kind of understands, about five games ever and a new codex... I'd call that a very good showing. Twas fun to hear about his/my Raptor Talon ripping stuff up. I kind of watched from afar while I fought off the new Agents of the Imperium book on my table.
Drasius wrote: Man, I used to rely on those force axes to actually make them moderately worrying to MC's. Now what the hell am I going to do (apart from stop taking Rubricae at all when I can help it)?
Rubrics are Fearless, and 3++ under a Blessing. So I'm guessing their job is to soak damage until your CC beatsticks decide to get stuck in.
You've also got Seer's Bane, which is a pretty spectacular item for squishing MCs.
Drasius wrote: Man, I used to rely on those force axes to actually make them moderately worrying to MC's. Now what the hell am I going to do (apart from stop taking Rubricae at all when I can help it)?
Rubrics are Fearless, and 3++ under a Blessing. So I'm guessing their job is to soak damage until your CC beatsticks decide to get stuck in.
You've also got Seer's Bane, which is a pretty spectacular item for squishing MCs.
Yes, they're fearless and can have a 3++, but they can't really kill anything. When their sorceror used to have a str5 AP2 force weapons, even dreadknights were a bit worried (but not that much because they're a character and can challenge out the sarge and the sarge must accept because of champtions of chaos) since it was 4's to hit, 5's to wound and 5's to save while only a single wound needed to go through. Same deal with other T6 >4+ save MC's. Now? Yeah, wounding on 4's but with a 3+ or 2+ save, those MC's are far, far less scared of the sorceror than they used to be. Given that, IMHO, you need to be running a full War Cabal so you don't get blown off the table, you don't really have ant CC beatsticks and as for the Bane, well, it's a choice between an exalted OR the Bane OR the grimoure, you can only have 1 of the 3 at 1850. Guess I'll have to try and get the job done via shriek/devolution/life leech/etc now even more than before. It's just another indignity heaped onto the Sons just when yout thought that they couldn't get worse, and for the life of me, other than the fact that that's the option on the front of the box, I really see no reason for the change, especially when their previous mini, the only one available since they've had a kit for the last 20+ years and one of the most iconic minis the Sons have, has had a sword. Which is now illegal. Because Reasons.
Does "Traitors Legion" make CSM good? -the three main criteria of the hobby are fluff, rules, and modeling. The book finally gives us what we need to fit the fiction better than we could before. The rules drastically correct many of the point imbalances between our rules and other armies and makes CSM a competitor. There are now so many more conversion opportunities than there were a month ago and we will be having fun building these armies.
So yes it's good!
As far as making the most of it, I think the best yet to be determined Chaos army isn't going to be a singular Legion/book list. I think it will end up being some combination of detachments taken from more than one CSM books that makes use of their different advantages to create optimized specialization and synergy.
For example, if you want obj-sec Obliterators you take a CAD of Iron Warriors, but the next detachment could be World Eaters... where by you're holding objectives and firing tank hunting weapons from the rear while Berzerkers press hard into early game assaults.
Drasius wrote: Man, I used to rely on those force axes to actually make them moderately worrying to MC's. Now what the hell am I going to do (apart from stop taking Rubricae at all when I can help it)?
Rubrics are Fearless, and 3++ under a Blessing. So I'm guessing their job is to soak damage until your CC beatsticks decide to get stuck in.
You've also got Seer's Bane, which is a pretty spectacular item for squishing MCs.
Yes, they're fearless and can have a 3++, but they can't really kill anything. When their sorceror used to have a str5 AP2 force weapons, even dreadknights were a bit worried (but not that much because they're a character and can challenge out the sarge and the sarge must accept because of champtions of chaos) since it was 4's to hit, 5's to wound and 5's to save while only a single wound needed to go through. Same deal with other T6 >4+ save MC's. Now? Yeah, wounding on 4's but with a 3+ or 2+ save, those MC's are far, far less scared of the sorceror than they used to be. Given that, IMHO, you need to be running a full War Cabal so you don't get blown off the table, you don't really have ant CC beatsticks and as for the Bane, well, it's a choice between an exalted OR the Bane OR the grimoure, you can only have 1 of the 3 at 1850. Guess I'll have to try and get the job done via shriek/devolution/life leech/etc now even more than before. It's just another indignity heaped onto the Sons just when yout thought that they couldn't get worse, and for the life of me, other than the fact that that's the option on the front of the box, I really see no reason for the change, especially when their previous mini, the only one available since they've had a kit for the last 20+ years and one of the most iconic minis the Sons have, has had a sword. Which is now illegal. Because Reasons.
Sorry but since when was any Monstrous Creatures afraid of charging Rubrics? You'd have to have successfully casted Force and anticipated the charge, which means less Warp Charges for other powers.
Monster Hunting is a pretty damn big exaggeration for any capability they had. Which was little to none.
Drasius wrote: Man, I used to rely on those force axes to actually make them moderately worrying to MC's. Now what the hell am I going to do (apart from stop taking Rubricae at all when I can help it)?
Rubrics are Fearless, and 3++ under a Blessing. So I'm guessing their job is to soak damage until your CC beatsticks decide to get stuck in.
You've also got Seer's Bane, which is a pretty spectacular item for squishing MCs.
Yes, they're fearless and can have a 3++, but they can't really kill anything. When their sorceror used to have a str5 AP2 force weapons, even dreadknights were a bit worried (but not that much because they're a character and can challenge out the sarge and the sarge must accept because of champtions of chaos) since it was 4's to hit, 5's to wound and 5's to save while only a single wound needed to go through. Same deal with other T6 >4+ save MC's. Now? Yeah, wounding on 4's but with a 3+ or 2+ save, those MC's are far, far less scared of the sorceror than they used to be. Given that, IMHO, you need to be running a full War Cabal so you don't get blown off the table, you don't really have ant CC beatsticks and as for the Bane, well, it's a choice between an exalted OR the Bane OR the grimoure, you can only have 1 of the 3 at 1850. Guess I'll have to try and get the job done via shriek/devolution/life leech/etc now even more than before. It's just another indignity heaped onto the Sons just when yout thought that they couldn't get worse, and for the life of me, other than the fact that that's the option on the front of the box, I really see no reason for the change, especially when their previous mini, the only one available since they've had a kit for the last 20+ years and one of the most iconic minis the Sons have, has had a sword. Which is now illegal. Because Reasons.
Sorry but since when was any Monstrous Creatures afraid of charging Rubrics? You'd have to have successfully casted Force and anticipated the charge, which means less Warp Charges for other powers.
Monster Hunting is a pretty damn big exaggeration for any capability they had. Which was little to none.
It's an exaggeration, but it was at least a theoretically probably to do damage to Marine saves in melee, especially since most Marine armies don't kit for CC anyway, and S&P means you can assault after rapid-fire. MCs cannot Challenge barring the odd Dreadknight or two, but otherwise the 4++ and LOS at least gave a theoretical chance to threaten monsters if you actually got in range
Course, Riptides could just hang back and shoot you, and Flyrants just strafe you, but it *was* theoretically possible...
Drasius wrote: Man, I used to rely on those force axes to actually make them moderately worrying to MC's. Now what the hell am I going to do (apart from stop taking Rubricae at all when I can help it)?
Rubrics are Fearless, and 3++ under a Blessing. So I'm guessing their job is to soak damage until your CC beatsticks decide to get stuck in.
You've also got Seer's Bane, which is a pretty spectacular item for squishing MCs.
Yes, they're fearless and can have a 3++, but they can't really kill anything. When their sorceror used to have a str5 AP2 force weapons, even dreadknights were a bit worried (but not that much because they're a character and can challenge out the sarge and the sarge must accept because of champtions of chaos) since it was 4's to hit, 5's to wound and 5's to save while only a single wound needed to go through. Same deal with other T6 >4+ save MC's. Now? Yeah, wounding on 4's but with a 3+ or 2+ save, those MC's are far, far less scared of the sorceror than they used to be. Given that, IMHO, you need to be running a full War Cabal so you don't get blown off the table, you don't really have ant CC beatsticks and as for the Bane, well, it's a choice between an exalted OR the Bane OR the grimoure, you can only have 1 of the 3 at 1850. Guess I'll have to try and get the job done via shriek/devolution/life leech/etc now even more than before. It's just another indignity heaped onto the Sons just when yout thought that they couldn't get worse, and for the life of me, other than the fact that that's the option on the front of the box, I really see no reason for the change, especially when their previous mini, the only one available since they've had a kit for the last 20+ years and one of the most iconic minis the Sons have, has had a sword. Which is now illegal. Because Reasons.
Sorry but since when was any Monstrous Creatures afraid of charging Rubrics? You'd have to have successfully casted Force and anticipated the charge, which means less Warp Charges for other powers.
Monster Hunting is a pretty damn big exaggeration for any capability they had. Which was little to none.
It's an exaggeration, but it was at least a theoretically probably to do damage to Marine saves in melee, especially since most Marine armies don't kit for CC anyway, and S&P means you can assault after rapid-fire. MCs cannot Challenge barring the odd Dreadknight or two, but otherwise the 4++ and LOS at least gave a theoretical chance to threaten monsters if you actually got in range
Course, Riptides could just hang back and shoot you, and Flyrants just strafe you, but it *was* theoretically possible...
And it still is, you just have to throw a 6 to wound instead of a 5, most MC's don't have a 2+ armour bar Riptides (which we established already were out of reach) and NDK's.
That said I think the single best thing about thousand sons that gets far less credit than it deserves is the updated discipline of Tzeentch.
Yes boon of chaos and Breath of chaos are still there but there's less chance of getting them. All the other powers are fine at worst.
Siphon Magic does nothing for ML 1 casters, Devolution is admittedly cute, and Treason rocks. The odds of getting a really good power are 1 in 3 still, a decent one 1 in 3, and a crap power usually still 1 in 3. The drawback is the odds of getting Doombolt are now 1 in 6. Alas.
Siphon Magic does nothing for ML 1 casters, Devolution is admittedly cute, and Treason rocks. The odds of getting a really good power are 1 in 3 still, a decent one 1 in 3, and a crap power usually still 1 in 3. The drawback is the odds of getting Doombolt are now 1 in 6. Alas.
Isn't Siphon Magic a Blessing and therefore can grant the unit a +1 on their Invuls? Or am I not remembering the Thousand Sons bonus correctly?
It wouldn't be good but at least it wouldn't be bad.
Siphon Magic does nothing for ML 1 casters, Devolution is admittedly cute, and Treason rocks. The odds of getting a really good power are 1 in 3 still, a decent one 1 in 3, and a crap power usually still 1 in 3. The drawback is the odds of getting Doombolt are now 1 in 6. Alas.
IIRC they can now cast one power above the ML. Doesn't mean that Syphon magic is not an odd power that could be way better.
The Rehati Formation with Flying Daemon Princes would be THE PERFECT target for a Dark Eldar Crucible of Malediction because they tend to flock togehter to stay in range of the Shrouding Psyker power.
Brutus_Apex wrote: They certainly got much better and you can now officially build a fluffy army if you play any other legion besides Black Legion.
Some formations are very good and you can build a strong strategy behind some of them.
That being said, Chaos Marines are still a fundamentally flawed army in that they are a close combat army that has almost no transport options and most of the units available are still horrendously overcosted.
This summarizes it quite nicely.
Too pt pricey and no real transport options.
On the other hand, one can build a fluffy army with nice new models.
I'd say it made us better but
On one hand I'm sad my death guard got made so disgustingly good
On the other hand that's fine cause its pushed me towards doing the Thousand Sons warband I've always wanted to. Plus I can still do the Black Crusade detachment with their rules and have access to a wide variety of units.
Siphon Magic does nothing for ML 1 casters, Devolution is admittedly cute, and Treason rocks. The odds of getting a really good power are 1 in 3 still, a decent one 1 in 3, and a crap power usually still 1 in 3. The drawback is the odds of getting Doombolt are now 1 in 6. Alas.
Isn't Siphon Magic a Blessing and therefore can grant the unit a +1 on their Invuls? Or am I not remembering the Thousand Sons bonus correctly?
It wouldn't be good but at least it wouldn't be bad.
Siphon only targets the caster, a blessing needs to affect the whole unit to grant the buff. Regardless, if that's all you wanted to do [trigger the +1 invo], you might as well cast force since it not only targets the unit to trigger the blessing, but also activates force on your weapon, unlike Siphon, which does nothing for a WC1 caster except stockpile dice that he can't use.
In a Grand Coven, casters can cast their ML+1 number of powers, so siphon can have some use there, but only if you're casting WC2+ powers (so breath/devolution/treason) or it would have been easier to just cast your lone WC1 power instead of casting siphon. Ironically, it's only when you're taking something like a maxxed out war cabal that siphon comes into its own, but then, once you're doing that, you really don't have the points to turn it into a grand coven so you can cast that extra power. Yet another example of piss poor design when it comes to the Sons as an army. The fact that none of the tzeentch powers can trigger the blessing should have been a dead givaway that they weren't thinking at all when they wrote the rules.
Brutus_Apex wrote: They certainly got much better and you can now officially build a fluffy army if you play any other legion besides Black Legion.
Some formations are very good and you can build a strong strategy behind some of them.
That being said, Chaos Marines are still a fundamentally flawed army in that they are a close combat army that has almost no transport options and most of the units available are still horrendously overcosted.
This summarizes it quite nicely.
Too pt pricey and no real transport options.
On the other hand, one can build a fluffy army with nice new models.
Although defacto giving them VOTLW for free did address some of the high cost issues
Siphon Magic does nothing for ML 1 casters, Devolution is admittedly cute, and Treason rocks. The odds of getting a really good power are 1 in 3 still, a decent one 1 in 3, and a crap power usually still 1 in 3. The drawback is the odds of getting Doombolt are now 1 in 6. Alas.
Isn't Siphon Magic a Blessing and therefore can grant the unit a +1 on their Invuls? Or am I not remembering the Thousand Sons bonus correctly?
It wouldn't be good but at least it wouldn't be bad.
Siphon only targets the caster, a blessing needs to affect the whole unit to grant the buff. Regardless, if that's all you wanted to do [trigger the +1 invo], you might as well cast force since it not only targets the unit to trigger the blessing, but also activates force on your weapon, unlike Siphon, which does nothing for a WC1 caster except stockpile dice that he can't use.
In a Grand Coven, casters can cast their ML+1 number of powers, so siphon can have some use there, but only if you're casting WC2+ powers (so breath/devolution/treason) or it would have been easier to just cast your lone WC1 power instead of casting siphon. Ironically, it's only when you're taking something like a maxxed out war cabal that siphon comes into its own, but then, once you're doing that, you really don't have the points to turn it into a grand coven so you can cast that extra power. Yet another example of piss poor design when it comes to the Sons as an army. The fact that none of the tzeentch powers can trigger the blessing should have been a dead givaway that they weren't thinking at all when they wrote the rules.
Unless I'm mistaken, only a single model in the unit needs to be affected by a blessing to trigger it. The rule says "If a unit is affected by a blessing" so, since a single model is part of the unit=that the unit is affected by a blessing. At least that's my interpretation.
Siphon Magic is a pretty good power if it's picking up 5-10 extra dice each psychic phase. Warp Charge is expensive.
ML1 casters won't get much out of it themselves, but within a Grand Coven, casting a "free" power using Siphoned dice will return bonus WC to any other casters in range who happen to have Siphon active.
Unless I'm mistaken, only a single model in the unit needs to be affected by a blessing to trigger it. The rule says "If a unit is affected by a blessing" so, since a single model is part of the unit=that the unit is affected by a blessing. At least that's my interpretation.
That's a wrong interpretation. For example, there's iron arm that targets a caster. You don't get +3 str/t to the other models in the unit (unless they're brotherhood of psychers) from a wc1 power.
Yoyoyo wrote: Siphon Magic is a pretty good power if it's picking up 5-10 extra dice each psychic phase. Warp Charge is expensive.
ML1 casters won't get much out of it themselves, but within a Grand Coven, casting a "free" power using Siphoned dice will return bonus WC to any other casters in range who happen to have Siphon active.
It's a small thing, but it's a possibility.
Very situational. First you got to cast it using 2-3 dice or you're standing a 50/50 chance it could just be a waste with 1 wc. Extra risk of perils. Than it only works for manifested powers from within a certain radius. Also very restrictive. Than it eats up your ml power limitation and you can manifest fewer offensive/defensive powers.
It could be used but it's not really amazing in an army that allready struggles with psy dice w/o daemon allies as the 1k son source of magic dices is very expensive.
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Yoyoyo wrote: Keep in mind koooaei, the criteria is "affected" rather than "targeted".
This will probably be FAQ'd at some time. It can get surprisingly messy figuring out interpretations.
So, you say people can get iron arm affecting the whole squad? A neat 1 wc power indeed.
I don't disagree. Siphon is a lot better on a character like Magnus -- no Perils, reliable casting on two dice, likely to be positioned centrally, can manifest six powers in a Coven, etc.
koooaei wrote: So, you say people can get iron arm affecting the whole squad? A neat 1 wc power indeed.
Iron Arm affects one model in the squad. But you can argue the case that affecting a single model does affects the squad by extension. What about a unit of two ICs -- would this affect majority toughness? It gets messier when you consider auras that target an individual psyker but might affect 50% of the unit.
50% of the unit's characteristic is a set of different rules. We're talking about the power 'affecting' the unit. I think it affects the one it targets.
Anyways. Going back to Siphon, it is a situational power. But under the right circumstances it will reduce your dependence on needing to ally in WC batteries, which is a good thing.
Indeed. but still thinking that any csm army focused on magic should have an herald and one unit of horrors.
The horrors are not just are a nice batery, they are perfect to hold an objetive that is far from the enemy melee units.
Franarok wrote: Indeed. but still thinking that any csm army focused on magic should have an herald and one unit of horrors.
The horrors are not just are a nice batery, they are perfect to hold an objetive that is far from the enemy melee units.
Screamer stars can put so much pressure up front that those backfield cheapo units take on real value. I've seen that and of course now in the new book, you can have some REALLY powerful psyker stuff going on in the Chaos marine side of the list. I was kind of shell shocked the first game against it.
I played a game last night, off the subject of Psykers. I played my first Night Lords game wit hthe new rules. Because: Night Lords. Man, it was SO nice having that Raptor Talon. I killed everything on the board except the Storm Raven, which basically slammed on the gas away from me the last two turns to get Line Breaker. Ended the game 45-24. Lost a lot of Raptors which was typical but only actually lost one unit of them completely.
Not sure how controversial a statement this is, but Black Legion now has the most powerful alpha strike in the game.
Abaddon and his Bringers of Despair automatically arrive first turn and can bring a Cyclopeia Cabal for Shroud of Deceipt. The Cabal can also bring Last Memory of Yuranthos for an 18 inch Nova attack. This is before taking a Raptor Talon that assaults the turn it arrives or a Terminator Annihilation Force with Heavy Flamers to shoot up opponents.
The damage output in the first turn could be incredibly high. It does depend on not mishapping, but there are a lot of ways for it to go right as well.
Well what's interesting is how many ways you can play Black Legion now as well. Multiple flavors of it to use.
The "Alpha Strike" is cool. I sometimes find that It is better to waste a round of the enemies firepower through null deployment depending on the foe so sometimes it will be useful, sometimes not. The fun part is the balancing of the codex against others BY having so many options in that way. There are some truly nasty beasts worth killing, and getting the jump on them is kinda important. The Tau Empire will of course get their interceptor and those with Drone Nets will laugh heartily at such shenanigans more than most. That's just one army though and against such forces you can simply go another route on strategy.
Eldar will be the ones who might find this new Black Legion a little daunting...
Jancoran wrote: Well what's interesting is how many ways you can play Black Legion now as well. Multiple flavors of it to use.
The "Alpha Strike" is cool. I sometimes find that It is better to waste a round of the enemies firepower through null deployment depending on the foe so sometimes it will be useful, sometimes not. The fun part is the balancing of the codex against others BY having so many options in that way. There are some truly nasty beasts worth killing, and getting the jump on them is kinda important. The Tau Empire will of course get their interceptor and those with Drone Nets will laugh heartily at such shenanigans more than most. That's just one army though and against such forces you can simply go another route on strategy.
Eldar will be the ones who might find this new Black Legion a little daunting...
multiple flavors of black legion is what really should make it work, the black legion should be the "ultramarines of chaos" if you know what I mean
techsoldaten wrote: Not sure how controversial a statement this is, but Black Legion now has the most powerful alpha strike in the game.
Abaddon and his Bringers of Despair automatically arrive first turn and can bring a Cyclopeia Cabal for Shroud of Deceipt. The Cabal can also bring Last Memory of Yuranthos for an 18 inch Nova attack. This is before taking a Raptor Talon that assaults the turn it arrives or a Terminator Annihilation Force with Heavy Flamers to shoot up opponents.
The damage output in the first turn could be incredibly high. It does depend on not mishapping, but there are a lot of ways for it to go right as well.
Multiple relentless units of grav devs in pods would like to have a word with you, as would quite a few eldar and tau lists.
techsoldaten wrote: Not sure how controversial a statement this is, but Black Legion now has the most powerful alpha strike in the game.
Abaddon and his Bringers of Despair automatically arrive first turn and can bring a Cyclopeia Cabal for Shroud of Deceipt. The Cabal can also bring Last Memory of Yuranthos for an 18 inch Nova attack. This is before taking a Raptor Talon that assaults the turn it arrives or a Terminator Annihilation Force with Heavy Flamers to shoot up opponents.
The damage output in the first turn could be incredibly high. It does depend on not mishapping, but there are a lot of ways for it to go right as well.
Multiple relentless units of grav devs in pods would like to have a word with you, as would quite a few eldar and tau lists.
Grav pods would not like Night Lords I don't think. They would be badly disadvantaged. No target when they drop in and no Overwatch when they get charged. theyshow up to essentially get eaten. Hehehe. SURPRISE!
techsoldaten wrote: Not sure how controversial a statement this is, but Black Legion now has the most powerful alpha strike in the game.
Abaddon and his Bringers of Despair automatically arrive first turn and can bring a Cyclopeia Cabal for Shroud of Deceipt. The Cabal can also bring Last Memory of Yuranthos for an 18 inch Nova attack. This is before taking a Raptor Talon that assaults the turn it arrives or a Terminator Annihilation Force with Heavy Flamers to shoot up opponents.
The damage output in the first turn could be incredibly high. It does depend on not mishapping, but there are a lot of ways for it to go right as well.
Multiple relentless units of grav devs in pods would like to have a word with you, as would quite a few eldar and tau lists.
Grav pods would not like Night Lords I don't think. They would be badly disadvantaged. No target when they drop in and no Overwatch when they get charged. theyshow up to essentially get eaten. Hehehe. SURPRISE!
traitor legions is a big improvement, the one problem area I'd say with CSMs right now is with the renegades. someone wanting to run a cosairs army around Huron right now is in a poorer place.
Honestly i my last game, i liked the fact that the Ravenwing player used his speed to get away from my Frenzied WE, and even then it was not fast enough( had good Blood Mad rolls, everyone advanced 7-12" and only 2 units rolled a 4").
Wish there was more to WE detachements then just "everyone becomes Zerkers lite and can Haul arse before game" but its not the worst of the bunch honestly.( even though i'd had hoped for a FnP6+ or something for the Butcher's Nails...)
the good thing is that all units are cheaper since the icon becomes redundant and seriously useless( if it still had the DS Homing feature that it had in previous editions...).
BrianDavion wrote: traitor legions is a big improvement, the one problem area I'd say with CSMs right now is with the renegades. someone wanting to run a cosairs army around Huron right now is in a poorer place.
At this point I wouldn't be surprised if there were another book planned to cover different renegade marine groups... and traitor guard too... heck Dark Mechanicum as well. But yeah you're right, Renegades have the least going for them now and suffer more greatly from the CSM codex's overpriced point cost issues.
BrianDavion wrote: traitor legions is a big improvement, the one problem area I'd say with CSMs right now is with the renegades. someone wanting to run a cosairs army around Huron right now is in a poorer place.
Renegades hijacked the CSM book several editions ago, they should never have even been there, C:SM would have been more appropriate for them. Glad to see legions finally reclaiming their book, shame that Nurgle is still the obvious favourite over at GW.
techsoldaten wrote: Not sure how controversial a statement this is, but Black Legion now has the most powerful alpha strike in the game.
An electrodisplacing/soulswitching wolfstar/kdk houndstar has a more powerful alpha strike than what Black Legion can bring. Or just a whole armys worth of Genestealer Cults.
Not sure about Skyhammer Annihilation Force kitted to the max and accompanied by other elements or gravturion spam in pods, but those are also contenders.
And none of these rely on not mishapping aside from Drop Pods, but they can be placed in a way that a mishap is not possible due to Inertial Guidance System.
BrianDavion wrote: traitor legions is a big improvement, the one problem area I'd say with CSMs right now is with the renegades. someone wanting to run a cosairs army around Huron right now is in a poorer place.
At this point I wouldn't be surprised if there were another book planned to cover different renegade marine groups... and traitor guard too... heck Dark Mechanicum as well. But yeah you're right, Renegades have the least going for them now and suffer more greatly from the CSM codex's overpriced point cost issues.
Also, anyone noticed that you can't take Fabius Bile in a Legion army? wonder if that's an oversight or not
BrianDavion wrote: traitor legions is a big improvement, the one problem area I'd say with CSMs right now is with the renegades. someone wanting to run a cosairs army around Huron right now is in a poorer place.
At this point I wouldn't be surprised if there were another book planned to cover different renegade marine groups... and traitor guard too... heck Dark Mechanicum as well. But yeah you're right, Renegades have the least going for them now and suffer more greatly from the CSM codex's overpriced point cost issues.
Also, anyone noticed that you can't take Fabius Bile in a Legion army? wonder if that's an oversight or not
Actually that makes a lot of sense, since he went rogue and became a free agent. He's no longer affiliated with any Legion, and is thus outside of their "organization."
BrianDavion wrote: traitor legions is a big improvement, the one problem area I'd say with CSMs right now is with the renegades. someone wanting to run a cosairs army around Huron right now is in a poorer place.
At this point I wouldn't be surprised if there were another book planned to cover different renegade marine groups... and traitor guard too... heck Dark Mechanicum as well. But yeah you're right, Renegades have the least going for them now and suffer more greatly from the CSM codex's overpriced point cost issues.
Also, anyone noticed that you can't take Fabius Bile in a Legion army? wonder if that's an oversight or not
Actually that makes a lot of sense, since he went rogue and became a free agent. He's no longer affiliated with any Legion, and is thus outside of their "organization."
ohh I agree for the most part, heck I'd love to see a data slate based around Bile, the possiabilities are endless!
techsoldaten wrote: Not sure how controversial a statement this is, but Black Legion now has the most powerful alpha strike in the game.
Abaddon and his Bringers of Despair automatically arrive first turn and can bring a Cyclopeia Cabal for Shroud of Deceipt. The Cabal can also bring Last Memory of Yuranthos for an 18 inch Nova attack. This is before taking a Raptor Talon that assaults the turn it arrives or a Terminator Annihilation Force with Heavy Flamers to shoot up opponents.
The damage output in the first turn could be incredibly high. It does depend on not mishapping, but there are a lot of ways for it to go right as well.
I think the full **** move is to take Tzeentch Sorcerers in the Cabal and roll for Treason of Tzeentch as well. Then you get two enemy units (or the same one twice) shooting their own troops.
You also don't need Abaddon and Friends to come in first turn, any Deep Striking Warlord will do (Speartip bonus).
MarsNZ wrote:Renegades hijacked the CSM book several editions ago, they should never have even been there, C:SM would have been more appropriate for them. Glad to see legions finally reclaiming their book, shame that Nurgle is still the obvious favourite over at GW.
This. Exactly this. Every. Single. Word. Of. This.
Insectum7 wrote:I think the full **** move is to take Tzeentch Sorcerers in the Cabal and roll for Treason of Tzeentch as well. Then you get two enemy units (or the same one twice) shooting their own troops.
You also don't need Abaddon and Friends to come in first turn, any Deep Striking Warlord will do (Speartip bonus).
Any plan to voluntarily take Tz marked sorcs outside a Thousand Sons legion is automatically a bad plan.
Any plan to voluntarily take Tz marked sorcs outside a Thousand Sons legion is automatically a bad plan.
Cutting down on sorcerer flexibility definitely hurts. But 4++ for Terminator Sorcerers isn't bad, and firing with two enemy units a turn can be nasty, nasty, nasty.
techsoldaten wrote: Not sure how controversial a statement this is, but Black Legion now has the most powerful alpha strike in the game.
Abaddon and his Bringers of Despair automatically arrive first turn and can bring a Cyclopeia Cabal for Shroud of Deceipt. The Cabal can also bring Last Memory of Yuranthos for an 18 inch Nova attack. This is before taking a Raptor Talon that assaults the turn it arrives or a Terminator Annihilation Force with Heavy Flamers to shoot up opponents.
The damage output in the first turn could be incredibly high. It does depend on not mishapping, but there are a lot of ways for it to go right as well.
Multiple relentless units of grav devs in pods would like to have a word with you, as would quite a few eldar and tau lists.
I am sure they would. The point of the Speartip is to knock these units out before they can impact the game. It would certainly be a different way to play Black Legion!
techsoldaten wrote: Not sure how controversial a statement this is, but Black Legion now has the most powerful alpha strike in the game.
Abaddon and his Bringers of Despair automatically arrive first turn and can bring a Cyclopeia Cabal for Shroud of Deceipt. The Cabal can also bring Last Memory of Yuranthos for an 18 inch Nova attack. This is before taking a Raptor Talon that assaults the turn it arrives or a Terminator Annihilation Force with Heavy Flamers to shoot up opponents.
The damage output in the first turn could be incredibly high. It does depend on not mishapping, but there are a lot of ways for it to go right as well.
Multiple relentless units of grav devs in pods would like to have a word with you, as would quite a few eldar and tau lists.
Grav pods would not like Night Lords I don't think. They would be badly disadvantaged. No target when they drop in and no Overwatch when they get charged. theyshow up to essentially get eaten. Hehehe. SURPRISE!
Time to start using Assault Centurions then...
Yup. those would probably handle it fine. hehehe. Although I do Drop in the Mutilators and the Obliterators to help with that whittling. the Chaos Lord probably will still allow the Night Lords to do okay but i wouldnt wanna hit an Assault Centurion full on. Mmmm.
An electrodisplacing/soulswitching wolfstar/kdk houndstar has a more powerful alpha strike than what Black Legion can bring. Or just a whole armys worth of Genestealer Cults.
Not sure about Skyhammer Annihilation Force kitted to the max and accompanied by other elements or gravturion spam in pods, but those are also contenders.
And none of these rely on not mishapping aside from Drop Pods, but they can be placed in a way that a mishap is not possible due to Inertial Guidance System.
A good alpha sure but not the most powerful.
I was hoping someone would point out the other contenders.
Black Legion could turn out to be the best is because a) the Last Memory is an area of affect weapon that can cover almost half the board, b) the Shroud of Deceit lets you take the opponent's best gun and use it against them and c) the Bringers of Despair are awful tough on anything short of a Deathstar. If they also bring a second Cabal, a Raptor Talon (for assaults on deep strike) or a Terminator Annihilation Force kitted out with a ton of heavy flamers, there's going to be trouble.
Thinking there are many combinations and it will take time to work through what the best is. Perhaps it's not the most potent alpha strike in the game, but it certainly has potential.
techsoldaten wrote: Not sure how controversial a statement this is, but Black Legion now has the most powerful alpha strike in the game.
Abaddon and his Bringers of Despair automatically arrive first turn and can bring a Cyclopeia Cabal for Shroud of Deceipt. The Cabal can also bring Last Memory of Yuranthos for an 18 inch Nova attack. This is before taking a Raptor Talon that assaults the turn it arrives or a Terminator Annihilation Force with Heavy Flamers to shoot up opponents.
The damage output in the first turn could be incredibly high. It does depend on not mishapping, but there are a lot of ways for it to go right as well.
Multiple relentless units of grav devs in pods would like to have a word with you, as would quite a few eldar and tau lists.
Grav pods would not like Night Lords I don't think. They would be badly disadvantaged. No target when they drop in and no Overwatch when they get charged. theyshow up to essentially get eaten. Hehehe. SURPRISE!
Time to start using Assault Centurions then...
Yup. those would probably handle it fine. hehehe. Although I do Drop in the Mutilators and the Obliterators to help with that whittling. the Chaos Lord probably will still allow the Night Lords to do okay but i wouldnt wanna hit an Assault Centurion full on. Mmmm.
If you think even Death Guard Mutilators will do anything to Assault Centurions you're going to have a bad time. Striking first with S10 AP2 hurts them a good amount.
If you think even Death Guard Mutilators will do anything to Assault Centurions you're going to have a bad time. Striking first with S10 AP2 hurts them a good amount.
I know. Also, I wrote a battle Report for those who might be interested.
Spoiler:
I played against Shadowzillas improved Inquisition list (technically its a Grey Knight list accourding to the ITC). I played my same Chaos Marines list I always play. The only change was that i split my 28 Raptors into three units to make them fit in a Raptor Talon, but literally unchanged functionally and exactly the same models.
Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband - 333
108 Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
-ML 1, Force Sword, Bolt Pistol, Power Armor, Psychotroke and Rad Grenades, Liber Heresius
200 Nemesis Dreadknight
-Gatling Psilencer, Greatsword, Powerfist, Personal Teleporter
225 Nemesis Dreadknight
-Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Greatsword, Powerfist, Personal Teleporter
225 Nemesis Dreadknight
-Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Greatsword, Powerfist, Personal Teleporter
My list was a slight variation of this, wherein I took the Raptors and split them up to fit them in a Raptor Talon. not MUCH change other than that:
1996 Night Lords
1 Obliterator, 76 pts (Mark of Nurgle)
1 Obliterator, 76 pts (Mark of Nurgle)
1 Obliterator, 76 pts (Mark of Nurgle)
1 Mutilator, 61 pts (Mark of Nurgle)
1 Mutilator, 61 pts (Mark of Nurgle)
1 Mutilator, 61 pts (Mark of Nurgle)
13 Raptors, 280 pts (Mark of Nurgle+ Meltagun x2)
1 Raptor Champion, 50 pts (Melta Bombs +Mark of Nurgle+ Power Axe x1)
13 Raptors, 280 pts (Mark of Nurgle+ Meltagun x2)
1 Raptor Champion, 50 pts (Melta Bombs +Mark of Nurgle+ Power Axe x1)
NOTE: Raptors are split up to form a Raptro Talon instead
4 Black Legion Chaos Space Marines (Veterans of the Long War)
1 Aspiring Champion (Veterans of the Long War)
1 Chaos Rhino 40ts (Dirge Caster)
1 Sorcerer, 120 pts (Mark of Nurgle + Melta Bombs + Increase Mastery Level+ Aura of Dark Glory)
1 Black Legion Chaos Lord 160 pts (Mark of Nurgle + Blight Grenades + Melta Bombs + Sigil of Corruption + Combi-Meltagun + Gift of Mutation + Veterans of the Long War + Chaos Bike)
1 The Eye of Night
1 The Hand of Darkness
1 Heldrake, 170 pts
Mission: 3 Objectives, mostly spaced out along the center line.
As he had Coteaz, I had to plan carefully...and decided caution was for the weak Imperium, not the Night Lords. We feed on the fear.
He forced me to go first. knowing how many deep Strikers I owned, He deployed everything, and then put Coteaz out there using the Liber heresius in the middle to create a dangerous Deep striking bubble he could use to intercept my stuff if it got within 12". His plasma heavy Power Armored Warbands were snug in their Rhinos. His Auto Cannon Dreads were two to the left one to the right and ready. Librarian and the Grey Knights hid in reserve. DreadKnight to either flank.
I placed one rhino on the table with its 5 Chaos Marines attached to my Warlord on a Bike, behind a wall. The rest was coming in later. The game of cat and mouse had begun.
1
My only shot was the Eye of Night which did a penetrating hit to Coteaz's Rhino in the middle. I had hoped to wax it and expose him early but.. other than this very slight movement I stayed put and prepared for his response.
He shifted and moved to try and get some dreadnought on higher ground to make shots on me, but his only serious move was to bring the DreadKnight shunting 30" up the board on my right and take aim at my Warlord from a safe distance. He killed two Chaos Marines and wounded the Warlord.
2
i mishap's a Mutilator off the table. Another Mutilator dropped to the midline right and scattered badly, but safely, near the right most objective. One Obliterator Deep Struck too close to the Coteaz Rhino and got shot but lived. The Heldrake strafed the DreadKnight and Dreads but to no effect. Two Obliterators dropped in to the far left left behind the same Dreadnoughts in the corner to try and kill them deep in his territory (I knew his DreadKnight next to them could shunt out but the Dreadnoughts could not...). The Assault Cannon didn't work on the Dreadnoughts, but the second one used Twin Linked Plasma and blew one up. Two Raptor units dropped on opposite sides of the shunted Dreadnought on my right. Both Raptor units shot and charged it dead, with the Warlord joining one Raptor Squad. Unfortunately, just for fun i went ahead and committed suicide with my Warlord by challenging the Knight. No need, I did it just to see if he could pull it off. Consolidation took both Raptor units into large circles which took up space.
His response was for his leftmost DreadKnight to shoot and charge an Obliterator to pieces,, while he opened up from inside his Rhinos with plasmas. His Librarian Deep Struck in on the right most objectvie near my scattered mutilator accompanied by his Grey Knight retinue. He popped his Vortex of Doom on my Raptors. Killed two. Coteaz's unit unloaded on Raptors as well. His more central Rhino in the backfield full of plasmas rolled forward to the left, taking cover near my Obliterator, to get closer to the left side objective. He kinda knew I was coming for him in general so pushing forward at this stage would just have diluted his fire but he did lace into my Raptors pretty good and I was down to three in one of the Raptor units that had killed his DreadKnight. Ah revenge.
3
My Rhinos came in and took cover behind the building that once had been hiding our initial deployment. My last Mutilator landed directly behind his Dreadnought in the right far quadrant, taking cover from a crate, kinda. The Rhino that i started with jetted to the center to cut off Overwatch fire by Coteaz. All units were now in.
My third Raptors unit dropped in and smashed Coteaz rhino up with meltaguns, exploding it and then rushing in to devastating effect. A wounded Inquisitor which was also in the unit survived its challenge against my Raptor champion but could do no more good. The combat ended with Coteaz, the extra Inquisitor and like one warband guy left. The surviving Raptors from the Warlords squad joined in and were down to two Raptors by the end of it. The last Raptor Squad, further behind everyone because of the charge on the DreadKnight made forward progress to the objective on the right. Unscathed, they shot, charged and killed the Librarian and his interloping Grey Knight squad off the right most objective.
Meanwhile, the Obliterator in the building which Coteaz's unit didn't manage to slay on the drop, shot and killed the Sororitas Rhino that had moved up on the left objective. He charged the warband inside, killed two, and unfortunately they ran (Slow and Purposeful stopped the Obliterator from sweeping them) and now he was exposed). The lone Obliterator in the far left corner took a LasCannon shot at the Dreadnought there but didn't hurt it because it had cast a 6+ invul save on itself from the Sanctuary Power. The Heldrake swung right and strafed the Dreadnought to the right but did nothing.
On his turn, the warband the Obliterator sent running regrouped among some ruins there. The DreadKnight rewarded the left Obliterator for its failure to kill its dreadnought target with death. Being a Daemon against a DreadKnight with his Force power on? Not good. The dread that avoided destruction shot at the Heldrake and actually clipped it, blowing off its weapon and Stunning it! Ouch. Plasma poured from inside the remaining couple of Rhinos but rolled remarkably poorly. They were limited in their targets in any event. Despite this the rhino unit he had farthest back in the right quadrant managed to kill the Mutilator that had alighted behind them by getting out and shooting it to death.
Coteaz and his unit died swinging and the Raptors consolidated 6" towards the regrouped warband that the Obliterator had sent running.
At this stage, the right most objective was firmly in Mutilator hands, with a wall of Raptors and a Chaos Lord cordoning it off and coming at him. on the right side. Two of my rhinos were idling their engines with three lonely Chaos marines in my deployment zone near the middle waiting to go get the center and left objective. His Dreadnought and DreadKnight were isolated together in the far left quadrant along with his regrouped Warband. On the right facing a Raptor onslaught were his two remaining Rhinos, one with a disgorged unit that killed a Mutilator. Lost in all this was the Chaos Red Rhino which had stopped so much overwatch and was about to stop more!
4
The lone Raptor survivor from the Warlords unit ran to assault a rhino in the far right quadrant. The Raptor Talon Chaos Lord with his unit lept towards the warband which had regrouped, smashed them and killed them, spreading out next to the Dreadnought and DreadKnight in the far left quadrant. The final Raptor unit jumped to take advantage of the Mutilators death, and the disgorged warband that killed him was now ripe for the killing. To allow for a multicharge, the Raptors shot the Rhino the solo Raptor had also attacked, and then multi-assaulted it and the disgorged warbandt. The Red Rhino sped forward in this shooting face to bring its Dirge Casters to bear once more...and... killed itself on some crates,. The Overwatrch I failed to stop was brutal. I lost four Raptors and missed the disgorged unit. Oh sweet failure.
The Heldrake penetrated the right Dreadnought with its claws but it survived on yet another 6+ save from his Psyker Power Sanctuary. D'oh. It seemed Karma was back with a vengeance.
The Rhinos behind cover in my deployment zone leapt to take both the Objective in the center and on the left. At this point we had all the objectives and needed to start planning the end game. the Heldrake flew off the board.
His options were limited but he brought his plasma unit to bear on my Raptors who had missed their charge, leaving one alive. The price of failure is steep for Chaos Marines indeed. He fired his two Dreadnoughts full bore at the Chaos Lords unit that had just killed his warband but to no effect. He used his DreadKnight shunt move to move WAY across the board towards the right most objective which currently had just a Mutilator to defend it, but he didn't kill it.That was about what he had left to work with other than his Rhino which I had failed to kill.
On the enemy turn the solo Raptor damaged one of his two Rhinos from the previous turn because it couldnt move.
5.
My Mutilator stood his ground to the right and prepared for the approach of the DreadKnight at the right most objective. The solo Raptor finished the Rhino it was munching on. The Chaos Lord and hir Raptors swung to the center and prepared to repel the Warband approaching the Center objective. The other solo Raptor took cover behind a rhino to try and avoid the Dreadnought guns.
His Warband moved and ran forward to try and get close enough to get the center objective if there was another turn with no choice but to brave my fire. The DreadKnight closed the distance to the Mutilator on the right but didnt kill it. It was on like Donkey Kong. Moment of truth. i was still in control of all three objectives.
6.
The two solo Raptors jumped towards the oncoming Dreadknight forming a triangle around it with the Mutilator. Chaos Marines poured from their rhinos as well to shoot at the DreadKnight ineffectually (in total i think we caused one wound). A few shot at the oncoming Warband to the right heading to center objective, Killing a couple of them. The Chaos Lord Raptors killed the Dreadnought on the left and consolidated towards the center. In another fit of silly heroics I decided to attempt assaulting the big boy to lock it in place and maybe splitting its attacks enough to matter. Unfortunately the Overwatch was again successful and I lost one of the Raptors. The battle was conclusive and the DreadKnight killed the Raptor and Mutilator and was now on the right objective and holding it. The Heldrake strafed the last Dreadnought on the right and glanced it, then shot off the table.
On his turn he needed everything to go right. His DreadKnight was effectively locked on the right objective so he couldnt get closer and took pot shots at the Chaos Marines, killing some but they held. The Dreadnought tried to kill the rhino sitting at center objective in the hopes his Warband could get there if they ran far enough... but no. In the end his Warband fell short, his Dreadnought could not kill the Rhinos and the DreadKnight did its best.
Game over.
I got First Blood, and Slay the Warlord. i controlled two objectives out of three. He did stop me from getting Line Breaker, which was a result of him repelling me on my final push on his Warbands. The immobilized result on a single rhino with its Dirge Caster meant the world to his chances. It can be the smallest moment that gives one hope which is why you never quit.
He controlled one of the 3 objectives. I placed it too far forward for him to get that and line breaker so the final score was 8-3
Great battle... mnus my silly heroics. But that was fun too.
BrianDavion wrote: traitor legions is a big improvement, the one problem area I'd say with CSMs right now is with the renegades. someone wanting to run a cosairs army around Huron right now is in a poorer place.
At this point I wouldn't be surprised if there were another book planned to cover different renegade marine groups... and traitor guard too... heck Dark Mechanicum as well. But yeah you're right, Renegades have the least going for them now and suffer more greatly from the CSM codex's overpriced point cost issues.
Also, anyone noticed that you can't take Fabius Bile in a Legion army? wonder if that's an oversight or not
Actually that makes a lot of sense, since he went rogue and became a free agent. He's no longer affiliated with any Legion, and is thus outside of their "organization."
As Insectum says, definitely not an oversight. Fabius is a member of the Emperor's Children only because of his power armour's colours.
techsoldaten wrote:I am sure they would. The point of the Speartip is to knock these units out before they can impact the game. It would certainly be a different way to play Black Legion!
Not sure how you're planning on knocking out units before they can impact the game when said units are ones that come down in drop pods and you have no interceptor.
techsoldaten wrote:Black Legion could turn out to be the best is because a) the Last Memory is an area of affect weapon that can cover almost half the board, b) the Shroud of Deceit lets you take the opponent's best gun and use it against them and c) the Bringers of Despair are awful tough on anything short of a Deathstar. If they also bring a second Cabal, a Raptor Talon (for assaults on deep strike) or a Terminator Annihilation Force kitted out with a ton of heavy flamers, there's going to be trouble.
Thinking there are many combinations and it will take time to work through what the best is. Perhaps it's not the most potent alpha strike in the game, but it certainly has potential.
Last Memory kills it's caster if they fail to manifest one of the boosted casts, so there's far more risk involved compared to back in 6th when the dex was written for. You're going to want a fair amount of dice to mitigate that risk, even with a familiar. Shroud is pretty good, but it's also ML3, so even with a familiar, you're still looking at 6 dice for an ~88% chance. The bringers have to make it to melee, so I'd suggest that they'll get Grav'ed / Ion Accelerator'ed / Shrieked off the board in short order by the higher tier armies fairly quickly if not just flat out crushed by a psychic deathstar since you're always going to let the enemy have a turn to get their buffs up. As for the TAF with "a bunch" of heavy flamers, not only are you spending waaaay too many points on termies for that to be a thing, you're also going to have to deep strike danger close with no scatter mitigation to effectively use those flamers, resulting in too many cases of either mishaps or scatters taking you out of flamer range, at which point you're just shooting things with bolters and whatever combis you bought along.
Don't get me wrong, it's not as bad as many people seem to think the Black Legion are and they can throw some decent punches, but claiming that their alpha is anywhere near devastating is overcalling things by quite a bit. If you'd care to point me to a list that shows otherwise however, I'd love to be mistaken.
Actually, the RFP part of Last Memory is on Perils and not failures, so even if your Sorcerer dies, it's still going to hurt against certain armies if you invest in it. While it's no good against, say, a Gladius, it has the potential to lay the hurt on MSU Bikes, Genestealer Cults, etc. I honestly view it more as an area-denial tool or means to extricate units from close combats more than for alpha-strikes. Worst comes to worst, paying an extra 5 points over an ML 2 caster to guarantee access to Psychic Shriek and Sunburst is pretty nice.
I imagine it could be possible to do a "min cad" of Necron allies in order to bring Deathmarks to the party. Not only would they provide de-facto Interceptor, but you can have a unit automatically arrive turn 1 alongside your Warlord, due to Allies of Convenience mechanics. They would get hit by Last Memory though.
techsoldaten wrote:I am sure they would. The point of the Speartip is to knock these units out before they can impact the game. It would certainly be a different way to play Black Legion!
Not sure how you're planning on knocking out units before they can impact the game when said units are ones that come down in drop pods and you have no interceptor.
...
Don't get me wrong, it's not as bad as many people seem to think the Black Legion are and they can throw some decent punches, but claiming that their alpha is anywhere near devastating is overcalling things by quite a bit. If you'd care to point me to a list that shows otherwise however, I'd love to be mistaken.
Good points. Not prepared to debate it, more ready to table test it.
Looking to see what this can do to top-tier armies. It's been a long time since I played Eldar or Tau, but my impression was their armies stop being as useful when you take out their psykers. They would also be susceptible to a large nova blast in the backfield, and getting a shot off with one of their big guns could be devastating.
If you think even Death Guard Mutilators will do anything to Assault Centurions you're going to have a bad time. Striking first with S10 AP2 hurts them a good amount.
I know. Also, I wrote a battle Report for those who might be interested.
Spoiler:
I played against Shadowzillas improved Inquisition list (technically its a Grey Knight list accourding to the ITC). I played my same Chaos Marines list I always play. The only change was that i split my 28 Raptors into three units to make them fit in a Raptor Talon, but literally unchanged functionally and exactly the same models.
Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband - 333
108 Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
-ML 1, Force Sword, Bolt Pistol, Power Armor, Psychotroke and Rad Grenades, Liber Heresius
4 Black Legion Chaos Space Marines (Veterans of the Long War)
1 Aspiring Champion (Veterans of the Long War)
1 Chaos Rhino 40ts (Dirge Caster)
1 Sorcerer, 120 pts (Mark of Nurgle + Melta Bombs + Increase Mastery Level+ Aura of Dark Glory)
1 Black Legion Chaos Lord 160 pts (Mark of Nurgle + Blight Grenades + Melta Bombs + Sigil of Corruption + Combi-Meltagun + Gift of Mutation + Veterans of the Long War + Chaos Bike)
1 The Eye of Night
1 The Hand of Darkness
1 Heldrake, 170 pts
Mission: 3 Objectives, mostly spaced out along the center line.
As he had Coteaz, I had to plan carefully...and decided caution was for the weak Imperium, not the Night Lords. We feed on the fear.
He forced me to go first. knowing how many deep Strikers I owned, He deployed everything, and then put Coteaz out there using the Liber heresius in the middle to create a dangerous Deep striking bubble he could use to intercept my stuff if it got within 12". His plasma heavy Power Armored Warbands were snug in their Rhinos. His Auto Cannon Dreads were two to the left one to the right and ready. Librarian and the Grey Knights hid in reserve. DreadKnight to either flank.
I placed one rhino on the table with its 5 Chaos Marines attached to my Warlord on a Bike, behind a wall. The rest was coming in later. The game of cat and mouse had begun.
1
My only shot was the Eye of Night which did a penetrating hit to Coteaz's Rhino in the middle. I had hoped to wax it and expose him early but.. other than this very slight movement I stayed put and prepared for his response.
He shifted and moved to try and get some dreadnought on higher ground to make shots on me, but his only serious move was to bring the DreadKnight shunting 30" up the board on my right and take aim at my Warlord from a safe distance. He killed two Chaos Marines and wounded the Warlord.
2
i mishap's a Mutilator off the table. Another Mutilator dropped to the midline right and scattered badly, but safely, near the right most objective. One Obliterator Deep Struck too close to the Coteaz Rhino and got shot but lived. The Heldrake strafed the DreadKnight and Dreads but to no effect. Two Obliterators dropped in to the far left left behind the same Dreadnoughts in the corner to try and kill them deep in his territory (I knew his DreadKnight next to them could shunt out but the Dreadnoughts could not...). The Assault Cannon didn't work on the Dreadnoughts, but the second one used Twin Linked Plasma and blew one up. Two Raptor units dropped on opposite sides of the shunted Dreadnought on my right. Both Raptor units shot and charged it dead, with the Warlord joining one Raptor Squad. Unfortunately, just for fun i went ahead and committed suicide with my Warlord by challenging the Knight. No need, I did it just to see if he could pull it off. Consolidation took both Raptor units into large circles which took up space.
His response was for his leftmost DreadKnight to shoot and charge an Obliterator to pieces,, while he opened up from inside his Rhinos with plasmas. His Librarian Deep Struck in on the right most objectvie near my scattered mutilator accompanied by his Grey Knight retinue. He popped his Vortex of Doom on my Raptors. Killed two. Coteaz's unit unloaded on Raptors as well. His more central Rhino in the backfield full of plasmas rolled forward to the left, taking cover near my Obliterator, to get closer to the left side objective. He kinda knew I was coming for him in general so pushing forward at this stage would just have diluted his fire but he did lace into my Raptors pretty good and I was down to three in one of the Raptor units that had killed his DreadKnight. Ah revenge.
3
My Rhinos came in and took cover behind the building that once had been hiding our initial deployment. My last Mutilator landed directly behind his Dreadnought in the right far quadrant, taking cover from a crate, kinda. The Rhino that i started with jetted to the center to cut off Overwatch fire by Coteaz. All units were now in.
My third Raptors unit dropped in and smashed Coteaz rhino up with meltaguns, exploding it and then rushing in to devastating effect. A wounded Inquisitor which was also in the unit survived its challenge against my Raptor champion but could do no more good. The combat ended with Coteaz, the extra Inquisitor and like one warband guy left. The surviving Raptors from the Warlords squad joined in and were down to two Raptors by the end of it. The last Raptor Squad, further behind everyone because of the charge on the DreadKnight made forward progress to the objective on the right. Unscathed, they shot, charged and killed the Librarian and his interloping Grey Knight squad off the right most objective.
Meanwhile, the Obliterator in the building which Coteaz's unit didn't manage to slay on the drop, shot and killed the Sororitas Rhino that had moved up on the left objective. He charged the warband inside, killed two, and unfortunately they ran (Slow and Purposeful stopped the Obliterator from sweeping them) and now he was exposed). The lone Obliterator in the far left corner took a LasCannon shot at the Dreadnought there but didn't hurt it because it had cast a 6+ invul save on itself from the Sanctuary Power. The Heldrake swung right and strafed the Dreadnought to the right but did nothing.
On his turn, the warband the Obliterator sent running regrouped among some ruins there. The DreadKnight rewarded the left Obliterator for its failure to kill its dreadnought target with death. Being a Daemon against a DreadKnight with his Force power on? Not good. The dread that avoided destruction shot at the Heldrake and actually clipped it, blowing off its weapon and Stunning it! Ouch. Plasma poured from inside the remaining couple of Rhinos but rolled remarkably poorly. They were limited in their targets in any event. Despite this the rhino unit he had farthest back in the right quadrant managed to kill the Mutilator that had alighted behind them by getting out and shooting it to death.
Coteaz and his unit died swinging and the Raptors consolidated 6" towards the regrouped warband that the Obliterator had sent running.
At this stage, the right most objective was firmly in Mutilator hands, with a wall of Raptors and a Chaos Lord cordoning it off and coming at him. on the right side. Two of my rhinos were idling their engines with three lonely Chaos marines in my deployment zone near the middle waiting to go get the center and left objective. His Dreadnought and DreadKnight were isolated together in the far left quadrant along with his regrouped Warband. On the right facing a Raptor onslaught were his two remaining Rhinos, one with a disgorged unit that killed a Mutilator. Lost in all this was the Chaos Red Rhino which had stopped so much overwatch and was about to stop more!
4
The lone Raptor survivor from the Warlords unit ran to assault a rhino in the far right quadrant. The Raptor Talon Chaos Lord with his unit lept towards the warband which had regrouped, smashed them and killed them, spreading out next to the Dreadnought and DreadKnight in the far left quadrant. The final Raptor unit jumped to take advantage of the Mutilators death, and the disgorged warband that killed him was now ripe for the killing. To allow for a multicharge, the Raptors shot the Rhino the solo Raptor had also attacked, and then multi-assaulted it and the disgorged warbandt. The Red Rhino sped forward in this shooting face to bring its Dirge Casters to bear once more...and... killed itself on some crates,. The Overwatrch I failed to stop was brutal. I lost four Raptors and missed the disgorged unit. Oh sweet failure.
The Heldrake penetrated the right Dreadnought with its claws but it survived on yet another 6+ save from his Psyker Power Sanctuary. D'oh. It seemed Karma was back with a vengeance.
The Rhinos behind cover in my deployment zone leapt to take both the Objective in the center and on the left. At this point we had all the objectives and needed to start planning the end game. the Heldrake flew off the board.
His options were limited but he brought his plasma unit to bear on my Raptors who had missed their charge, leaving one alive. The price of failure is steep for Chaos Marines indeed. He fired his two Dreadnoughts full bore at the Chaos Lords unit that had just killed his warband but to no effect. He used his DreadKnight shunt move to move WAY across the board towards the right most objective which currently had just a Mutilator to defend it, but he didn't kill it.That was about what he had left to work with other than his Rhino which I had failed to kill.
On the enemy turn the solo Raptor damaged one of his two Rhinos from the previous turn because it couldnt move.
5.
My Mutilator stood his ground to the right and prepared for the approach of the DreadKnight at the right most objective. The solo Raptor finished the Rhino it was munching on. The Chaos Lord and hir Raptors swung to the center and prepared to repel the Warband approaching the Center objective. The other solo Raptor took cover behind a rhino to try and avoid the Dreadnought guns.
His Warband moved and ran forward to try and get close enough to get the center objective if there was another turn with no choice but to brave my fire. The DreadKnight closed the distance to the Mutilator on the right but didnt kill it. It was on like Donkey Kong. Moment of truth. i was still in control of all three objectives.
6.
The two solo Raptors jumped towards the oncoming Dreadknight forming a triangle around it with the Mutilator. Chaos Marines poured from their rhinos as well to shoot at the DreadKnight ineffectually (in total i think we caused one wound). A few shot at the oncoming Warband to the right heading to center objective, Killing a couple of them. The Chaos Lord Raptors killed the Dreadnought on the left and consolidated towards the center. In another fit of silly heroics I decided to attempt assaulting the big boy to lock it in place and maybe splitting its attacks enough to matter. Unfortunately the Overwatch was again successful and I lost one of the Raptors. The battle was conclusive and the DreadKnight killed the Raptor and Mutilator and was now on the right objective and holding it. The Heldrake strafed the last Dreadnought on the right and glanced it, then shot off the table.
On his turn he needed everything to go right. His DreadKnight was effectively locked on the right objective so he couldnt get closer and took pot shots at the Chaos Marines, killing some but they held. The Dreadnought tried to kill the rhino sitting at center objective in the hopes his Warband could get there if they ran far enough... but no. In the end his Warband fell short, his Dreadnought could not kill the Rhinos and the DreadKnight did its best.
Game over.
I got First Blood, and Slay the Warlord. i controlled two objectives out of three. He did stop me from getting Line Breaker, which was a result of him repelling me on my final push on his Warbands. The immobilized result on a single rhino with its Dirge Caster meant the world to his chances. It can be the smallest moment that gives one hope which is why you never quit.
He controlled one of the 3 objectives. I placed it too far forward for him to get that and line breaker so the final score was 8-3
Great battle... mnus my silly heroics. But that was fun too.
Hey guys, while I'm here I'll just ask the question that I've only just been wondering recently.
Did the Black Legion section of this book add or change anything from the Black Legion Supplement, or is it just copy/pasted like the Thousand Sons from WoM?
Quarterdime wrote: Hey guys, while I'm here I'll just ask the question that I've only just been wondering recently.
Did the Black Legion section of this book add or change anything from the Black Legion Supplement, or is it just copy/pasted like the Thousand Sons from WoM?
. Im running a fever right now soam a bit cranky. Ill get back to you on the scarabs + warcouncil when im better. Very sorry for that flippant reply.
