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Yea, but....you pay one less HQ and a troop to get it lol. Enough points for a laser destroyer rapier or so.
The soulgrinder is totally better, but it's a lot more expensive in comparison since you already plan on taking a CAD.

Yeah i know, if only the defiler wasn't that costy...

Now KDK HQ and troops can be cheap anyway, an Herald with some bloodletters doesn't cost that much.

its really all about tailoring

Ah yea, the woes of an old codex. Curses!

So I just realized looking through the Thousand Sons entry that it somehow managed to make Rubric Marines even worse! While in the past you could give the Sorcerer a Force axe and use him as a monster hunter a sort, you can't even do that anymore!

GW, why?

Table wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
AL Cultists are good even on their own - without the big formation. Infiltrate is not a useless bonus there. Furthermore, it buffs the magic cultist deathstar significantly. No need to spend points on Ahriman or Huron - just go for more BL sorcs. Reliable infiltrate. Endless warlords. Mindveil.

That's a really good buff for competitive gamebreaking. And it's very characterful in fun games too.

Infiltrate is never useless. But its impact is variable. AL would have been far better off if being able to core the lost and the damned. Currently, you are hard pressed to add the formation when you have filled out a warband and taken specialist units. Furthermore on an combat basis they are weaker than other legions cultist due to not being able to mark. A doble whammy to be sure. I think the only option for AL at this point is a CaD with added formations (which you get two of under ITC). It is not that AL is bad. It is that the AL has been hindered by stupid rules. But you find that in other legions as well so they are not alone.

 koooaei wrote:
Why would you want to mark cultists? They end up pretty overpriced.

A Cultist Deathstar? What? And BL wouldn't be able to join the Infiltrators and can't be possible warlords as they're not taken as part of the detachment.

Mindveil is good in a CAD because you may be able to get your Terminators/Chosen into CC. However, Alpha Legion CAD Chosen don't get Infiltrate... So you're going Alpha Legion specifically for the Mindveil. Don't get me wrong, it's a great artefact, but it doesn't work within the list. You will have to survive a round of murderous, black hole creating-levels of grav fire. CSM terminators don't survive that, and neither will characters in Drakescale Plate.

For Cultists, MoS is an excellent choice against SMs and IG.

The new Traitor Legions supplement is a fairly big step up for CSM. I've mainly focussed on the EC content, but having looked through Death Guard I'm a lil bit jelly of their ability to move and fire heavy weapons as if they were standing still. The power might have been better suited to EC as speed is part of their game I feel. No matter; focussing on what EC did get that is quickly forgotten. Combat Drugs, Fearless, 4+ FnP and the ability to strike despite getting killed is awesome.

The only thing that bothers me is that it became much harder for me to build the army I want, if I wish to employ the Legion tactics. Taking Kakophoni, a Warband and a spawn auxillery basically fills my army up due to it all being basically mandatory, unless I am willing to forego some of the bonuses... which kind of defeats the purpose. We'll see more mono builds for each Legion I think, but at least there's a mono build for every Legion instead of a mono build for the entire codex.

Also yeeaaaaaah! Blissgiver is back baby! Love that thing.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
WHile the Plague hulk mouth weapon is a AP3 template.

The Rot cannon is just Str6, it as rending and its an AP3 ordinance weapon, but that low Strength, ugh...

I take the Soulgrinder because its still a Str8 ordinance weapon, wich with some luck can still glance AV14, but that Rot cannon ca only glance AV13 at best.

If it was Str7, then yeah i would consider it.

The rot cannon can hurt up to AV15. if you roll a 6 for armor pen you get to do an extra d3 to your roll

Also the plague hulk is 30 pts cheaper then a Nurgle Grinder with phlegm, that is a significant savings

BL and DG are as good as any C:SM chapter aside from White Scars. Night Lords, Iron Warriors and World Eaters got some pretty intense boosts too. Basically everything is LD 10 and gets a lot of free USRs from the "Decurions". Unless the Loyalists bring Skyhammer or gladius grav spam they're going to get a good run for their money.

We'll see if they get "competitive" but I've seen (and run) some pretty foul stuff at my LGS' and it hasn't even been out a full 2 weeks (which probably means that the true potential hasn't been unveiled yet).

The only thing that bothers me is that it became much harder for me to build the army I want, if I wish to employ the Legion tactics. Taking Kakophoni, a Warband and a spawn auxillery basically fills my army up due to it all being basically mandatory, unless I am willing to forego some of the bonuses... which kind of defeats the purpose. We'll see more mono builds for each Legion I think, but at least there's a mono build for every Legion instead of a mono build for the entire codex.

Honestly, the formation benefits for EC aren't that great. You could still field a CAD and get the other special rules provided you follow the restrictions. That's what most of the players in my area are doing. The Decurions all have a lot of points tied up in the Warband or similar, so most of the CSM folks here have just gone CAD and skipped the formation command benefits.Alpha Legion, Black Legion and Death Guard being the exceptions - those command benefits are all pretty impressive.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Yes! Finally

Take away the most broken bits of loyalists and they've actually managed to bring a sub-par army up to balance

Now all they need to do is limit Eldar Jetbikes to 1 heavy weapon per 3, make 'Flickerjump' less powerful, re-cost some MCs/GMCs, give the Dark Eldar some good standard formations for their non-coven stuff, sort out whatever's wrong with Orks and Tyranids and we're good!

Am I missing anything?

Plastic Bolter Bitches.

Making the most of Iron Warriors really comes down to fortifications... Do you guys think the different Wall of Martyr sections upgraded with Battle cannons are worth it?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Yes! Finally

Take away the most broken bits of loyalists and they've actually managed to bring a sub-par army up to balance

Now all they need to do is limit Eldar Jetbikes to 1 heavy weapon per 3, make 'Flickerjump' less powerful, re-cost some MCs/GMCs, give the Dark Eldar some good standard formations for their non-coven stuff, sort out whatever's wrong with Orks and Tyranids and we're good!

Am I missing anything?

Plastic Bolter Bitches.

Chaos Post. Sisters of Battle complaint. Check.

DAKKA BINGO!

Isbjornen wrote:

The only thing that bothers me is that it became much harder for me to build the army I want, if I wish to employ the Legion tactics. Taking Kakophoni, a Warband and a spawn auxillery basically fills my army up due to it all being basically mandatory, unless I am willing to forego some of the bonuses... which kind of defeats the purpose. We'll see more mono builds for each Legion I think, but at least there's a mono build for every Legion instead of a mono build for the entire codex.

THIS. So much this.
Compared to any other Decurions, especially Necrons, it's ridiculous how many minimum points are already tied up in the core formations.

The Decurions all have a lot of points tied up in the Warband or similar, so most of the CSM folks here have just gone CAD and skipped the formation command benefits.Alpha Legion, Black Legion and Death Guard being the exceptions - those command benefits are all pretty impressive.

Even Black Legion players are struggling to actually pull the speartip strike off within the point limits of normal games. We gotta spend points and risk to NOT have the reserves scatter (dimensional key on lord with risky first turn deep strike and charge) and to let them arrive on time (aegis with comms relay) and we need enough deep strikers to actually get something done in the end as well. The Black Legion core formations are just too much of a point investment. So I see Black Legion Speartip players having to choose between relying on the scatter die, the reserve rolls or having too little momentum.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Yes! Finally

Take away the most broken bits of loyalists and they've actually managed to bring a sub-par army up to balance

Now all they need to do is limit Eldar Jetbikes to 1 heavy weapon per 3, make 'Flickerjump' less powerful, re-cost some MCs/GMCs, give the Dark Eldar some good standard formations for their non-coven stuff, sort out whatever's wrong with Orks and Tyranids and we're good!

Am I missing anything?

Plastic Bolter Bitches.

Chaos Post. Sisters of Battle complaint. Check.

DAKKA BINGO!

Dammit all I was missing was

Orks are a melee race

I2

Tycho wrote:

The only thing that bothers me is that it became much harder for me to build the army I want, if I wish to employ the Legion tactics. Taking Kakophoni, a Warband and a spawn auxillery basically fills my army up due to it all being basically mandatory, unless I am willing to forego some of the bonuses... which kind of defeats the purpose. We'll see more mono builds for each Legion I think, but at least there's a mono build for every Legion instead of a mono build for the entire codex.

Honestly, the formation benefits for EC aren't that great. You could still field a CAD and get the other special rules provided you follow the restrictions. That's what most of the players in my area are doing. The Decurions all have a lot of points tied up in the Warband or similar, so most of the CSM folks here have just gone CAD and skipped the formation command benefits.Alpha Legion, Black Legion and Death Guard being the exceptions - those command benefits are all pretty impressive.

This, pretty much. Problem for BL already stated, but they can at least take the Cyclopia Cabal in their decurion. Alpha Legion bonuses are for the already sub-par Chosen, CSMs, and Cultists. I'm actually beginning to think the Alpha Legion ended up with the short straw, because at least Daemon-summoning Word Bearers can work.

Also, CADs can take FW. Rapiers, Fire Raptors, and Spartans, oh my!

Table wrote:I think TS can build a strong list. It just does not include rubrics. And that is sad for many reasons. They certainly got shafted on the formation special rule of re-rolling ones. No one is going to take 9 units of terminators. No one. Even if they had the points. It was pointless to even include the rule.
But TS does have some very very good relics and scarab occult terminators are actualy a decent unit in conjunction with relics and buffing. I cannot comment on Tzzangers because I do not have any. On paper they look......ok when in their formation. Exalted sorcs are very good as they are pretty much a lower WS chaos lord + psyker in one unit with the added once per game blast-lance las cannon shot. Its really just rubrics and the formations that got shafted.

If you can build a strong TS list that isn't just Magnus shoehorned into a Daemons list then you'll be the first and I'd love to see what you come up with. The closest I can get is maxing out a War Cabal at 1850 with no Aux choice because I don't have any points left and it relies so heavily on the handfull of BRB table rolls that it's very easy to not even have a chance vs quite a few armies. I keep coming back to a Sekmet Conclave since it's got no Rubricae tax (sad that not only is their iconic unit only available in 1 formation but that it's still so bad that it's a tax rather than something to build a list around, but all the cult units suck in their own dex now, so at least it's not just us), but then, without re-rolling 1's, they're still just a big points sink. A T5 points sink I'll grant you, but a points sink regardless.

Scarabs aren't decent at all and I'm not sure how you can think that they are. They're better than rubricae, but not by a lot and that's already a pretty low bar to pass. Tzaangors are pretty trash and the best thing to be said for them is that at least you don't have to pay the breyherd (unit sarge) tax, but MoT cultists are 10 points cheaper and have a ranged attack. While I love 3W Sorcerors as much as the next guy, MoT and the strange restriction from tvarious wargear hurts as does the fact that the orbital knockoff's just worse in every way compared to the loyalists version, not to mention being pretty useless unless you're on a disk (which you probably are anyway because T5) or in a unit of rubricae for SnP, but rubrics are a terrible choice, so why would you bother?

MagicJuggler wrote:The Tzaangor Formation is actually fairly broken, and not in a good way. Only the Tzaangors themselves get run and charge. This means you can't actually attach anyone to their unit, even their Formation's sorcerer, meaning they're not fearless. Meaning they could hurt a few Eldar scatbikes or so conceivably...assuming they get there. Then the Wraithknight mops them up.

Actually, you can fix it if you give the Sorceror a disk as then he can't run when the tzaangors do (his choice would be to turbo boost instead, which you obviously don't want) and then since he hasn't run and they have permission to run & charge in their formation, they can drag him into combat while he makes them fearless. Having said that, this only works for 1 unit and you'll lose fleet if a sorc from outside their formation joins them, but you can do the same trick with putting exalteds on disks to still allow run and charge while giving the exalted a bunch of relatively cheap ablative wounds. They're not even that bad as long as you roll div and get forewarning and if you also get misfortune, they can be downright terrifying. Their formation is even cheap enough that you can max it out with individual spawn to get your rr1's ability. Hmmm... Maybe a maxed out Tzaangor host and an Ahriman's Exiles or War Coven to provide the Fearless Disk Sorcs could work?

Table wrote:Marked cultists have their place. Its not a rock hard must take and I nor anyone has said differently. Sometimes I find myself in agreement with your posts, this time I do not. But it is interesting that you complain about marks costing to much on cultists but then proceed to tell us to bring typhus to make up for it.

Marked cultists have no place at all. I4 means they're still getting killed the instant they step out of cover, or even while they're still in cover since every remotely competative army tends to have multiple ignores cover options to deal with T3 6+ infantry hiding in cover and even when they do make it to combat, they're still getting murdered against almost anything you care to name and since they're not fearless, they're going to be swept, not to mention their lack of grenades means that their I4 is wasted anyway. T4 still doesn't have a save and doesn't matter because everything is Str6 and wounds them on 2's just the same as if they were T3 and again, even if they get to combat, they're now getting butchered before they strike even if they're not charging into cover, meaning even less str3 attacks to try and stave off that inevitable sweeping advance roll, ignoring their T4. A 6++ means nothing at all, and even with saving 1 out of 6 shots, you could have simply bought another cultist for the points that you saved and had some extra attacks for no extra points. Rage does nothing if you multicharge and you're still Str3, T3, I3 with no grenades and you're not fearless. Yes, a unit of 35 MoK cultists has a bajillion attacks on the charge, but when was the last time you saw anyone actually get any cultists into combat, let alone that many? And once, again, for the points you paid, you could have had more cultists, with more wounds for the same price. At best, marked cultists break even with their unmarked brethren. On top of all this, cultists are for min detatchment requirements 95% of the time, why are you wasting points on marks?

I do think you can make a strong TS list without dipping into other legions. You just wont be using more rubrics than is the bare minimum if at all. I am a fan of the occult terminators and I do not think you can argue that at worst, they are a decent unit. Once more, I cannot comment on tzzangors. I would not run them. But we can agree that GW was smoking some serious herb when writing the rules for 1ksons. Alot of wtf moments when reading Wrath of Magnus were had. The 7 point flamers probably being the most wtf moment. Despite it all, you can fashion some good solid lists with 1ksons. It could have just been SOOOO much better. And that is my overall feeling with TL. Alot of missed marks to give chaos players some rock solid lists. We are destined for b grade I am afraid. Lets hope 8th proves me wrong.

I can very easily argue that Scarabs aren't good. Take a look at tactical terminators. They're 35 ppm and come with stormbolter/powerfist, already wildly outclassing out chumps with combi bolter/power sword for 40ppm. Their cyclone missiles are 20 points, have 48" range, have a frag option and can be fired in conjunction with the stormbolter while our helfyres are also 20 points but are only 24" range, have no frags and can't be fired as well as the combi bolter. How often do you see people taking tactical termies, or even saying that they're decent? Never, that's how often. Yes, the scarab sarge is significantly better, but he's also 55 more points than the tactical sarge and when the rest of the army you're in is already wildy overcosted, 250 points for worse tactical terminators isn't a good deal. The 2 things Scarabs have going for them is that they're better in almost every way than Rubricae for their points (not hard) and that they become effectively immune to small arms fire if you can max out one of their formations (basically the War Cabal is the only choice, but it can be done in 1850) where they basically become a mini lychstar.

MagicJuggler wrote:So I just realized looking through the Thousand Sons entry that it somehow managed to make Rubric Marines even worse! While in the past you could give the Sorcerer a Force axe and use him as a monster hunter a sort, you can't even do that anymore!

GW, why?

Sweet jeebus, I thought the same, but I totally missed that. That's pretty rude seeing as a) everyone converted them to have axes because duh and b ) The old upgrade kit finecast sorceror comes with a power sword and no other options, so it's a pretty rude move to suddenly make them illegal. Man, I used to rely on those force axes to actually make them moderately worrying to MC's. Now what the hell am I going to do (apart from stop taking Rubricae at all when I can help it)?

 Drasius wrote:

Table wrote:I think TS can build a strong list. It just does not include rubrics. And that is sad for many reasons. They certainly got shafted on the formation special rule of re-rolling ones. No one is going to take 9 units of terminators. No one. Even if they had the points. It was pointless to even include the rule.
But TS does have some very very good relics and scarab occult terminators are actualy a decent unit in conjunction with relics and buffing. I cannot comment on Tzzangers because I do not have any. On paper they look......ok when in their formation. Exalted sorcs are very good as they are pretty much a lower WS chaos lord + psyker in one unit with the added once per game blast-lance las cannon shot. Its really just rubrics and the formations that got shafted.

If you can build a strong TS list that isn't just Magnus shoehorned into a Daemons list then you'll be the first and I'd love to see what you come up with. The closest I can get is maxing out a War Cabal at 1850 with no Aux choice because I don't have any points left and it relies so heavily on the handfull of BRB table rolls that it's very easy to not even have a chance vs quite a few armies. I keep coming back to a Sekmet Conclave since it's got no Rubricae tax (sad that not only is their iconic unit only available in 1 formation but that it's still so bad that it's a tax rather than something to build a list around, but all the cult units suck in their own dex now, so at least it's not just us), but then, without re-rolling 1's, they're still just a big points sink. A T5 points sink I'll grant you, but a points sink regardless.

Scarabs aren't decent at all and I'm not sure how you can think that they are. They're better than rubricae, but not by a lot and that's already a pretty low bar to pass. Tzaangors are pretty trash and the best thing to be said for them is that at least you don't have to pay the breyherd (unit sarge) tax, but MoT cultists are 10 points cheaper and have a ranged attack. While I love 3W Sorcerors as much as the next guy, MoT and the strange restriction from tvarious wargear hurts as does the fact that the orbital knockoff's just worse in every way compared to the loyalists version, not to mention being pretty useless unless you're on a disk (which you probably are anyway because T5) or in a unit of rubricae for SnP, but rubrics are a terrible choice, so why would you bother?

MagicJuggler wrote:The Tzaangor Formation is actually fairly broken, and not in a good way. Only the Tzaangors themselves get run and charge. This means you can't actually attach anyone to their unit, even their Formation's sorcerer, meaning they're not fearless. Meaning they could hurt a few Eldar scatbikes or so conceivably...assuming they get there. Then the Wraithknight mops them up.

Actually, you can fix it if you give the Sorceror a disk as then he can't run when the tzaangors do (his choice would be to turbo boost instead, which you obviously don't want) and then since he hasn't run and they have permission to run & charge in their formation, they can drag him into combat while he makes them fearless. Having said that, this only works for 1 unit and you'll lose fleet if a sorc from outside their formation joins them, but you can do the same trick with putting exalteds on disks to still allow run and charge while giving the exalted a bunch of relatively cheap ablative wounds. They're not even that bad as long as you roll div and get forewarning and if you also get misfortune, they can be downright terrifying. Their formation is even cheap enough that you can max it out with individual spawn to get your rr1's ability. Hmmm... Maybe a maxed out Tzaangor host and an Ahriman's Exiles or War Coven to provide the Fearless Disk Sorcs could work?

Table wrote:Marked cultists have their place. Its not a rock hard must take and I nor anyone has said differently. Sometimes I find myself in agreement with your posts, this time I do not. But it is interesting that you complain about marks costing to much on cultists but then proceed to tell us to bring typhus to make up for it.

Marked cultists have no place at all. I4 means they're still getting killed the instant they step out of cover, or even while they're still in cover since every remotely competative army tends to have multiple ignores cover options to deal with T3 6+ infantry hiding in cover and even when they do make it to combat, they're still getting murdered against almost anything you care to name and since they're not fearless, they're going to be swept, not to mention their lack of grenades means that their I4 is wasted anyway. T4 still doesn't have a save and doesn't matter because everything is Str6 and wounds them on 2's just the same as if they were T3 and again, even if they get to combat, they're now getting butchered before they strike even if they're not charging into cover, meaning even less str3 attacks to try and stave off that inevitable sweeping advance roll, ignoring their T4. A 6++ means nothing at all, and even with saving 1 out of 6 shots, you could have simply bought another cultist for the points that you saved and had some extra attacks for no extra points. Rage does nothing if you multicharge and you're still Str3, T3, I3 with no grenades and you're not fearless. Yes, a unit of 35 MoK cultists has a bajillion attacks on the charge, but when was the last time you saw anyone actually get any cultists into combat, let alone that many? And once, again, for the points you paid, you could have had more cultists, with more wounds for the same price. At best, marked cultists break even with their unmarked brethren. On top of all this, cultists are for min detatchment requirements 95% of the time, why are you wasting points on marks?

I do think you can make a strong TS list without dipping into other legions. You just wont be using more rubrics than is the bare minimum if at all. I am a fan of the occult terminators and I do not think you can argue that at worst, they are a decent unit. Once more, I cannot comment on tzzangors. I would not run them. But we can agree that GW was smoking some serious herb when writing the rules for 1ksons. Alot of wtf moments when reading Wrath of Magnus were had. The 7 point flamers probably being the most wtf moment. Despite it all, you can fashion some good solid lists with 1ksons. It could have just been SOOOO much better. And that is my overall feeling with TL. Alot of missed marks to give chaos players some rock solid lists. We are destined for b grade I am afraid. Lets hope 8th proves me wrong.

I can very easily argue that Scarabs aren't good. Take a look at tactical terminators. They're 35 ppm and come with stormbolter/powerfist, already wildly outclassing out chumps with combi bolter/power sword for 40ppm. Their cyclone missiles are 20 points, have 48" range, have a frag option and can be fired in conjunction with the stormbolter while our helfyres are also 20 points but are only 24" range, have no frags and can't be fired as well as the combi bolter. How often do you see people taking tactical termies, or even saying that they're decent? Never, that's how often. Yes, the scarab sarge is significantly better, but he's also 55 more points than the tactical sarge and when the rest of the army you're in is already wildy overcosted, 250 points for worse tactical terminators isn't a good deal. The 2 things Scarabs have going for them is that they're better in almost every way than Rubricae for their points (not hard) and that they become effectively immune to small arms fire if you can max out one of their formations (basically the War Cabal is the only choice, but it can be done in 1850) where they basically become a mini lychstar.

MagicJuggler wrote:So I just realized looking through the Thousand Sons entry that it somehow managed to make Rubric Marines even worse! While in the past you could give the Sorcerer a Force axe and use him as a monster hunter a sort, you can't even do that anymore!

GW, why?

Sweet jeebus, I thought the same, but I totally missed that. That's pretty rude seeing as a) everyone converted them to have axes because duh and b ) The old upgrade kit finecast sorceror comes with a power sword and no other options, so it's a pretty rude move to suddenly make them illegal. Man, I used to rely on those force axes to actually make them moderately worrying to MC's. Now what the hell am I going to do (apart from stop taking Rubricae at all when I can help it)?

I was going to respond to many points until I read where you wrote that everything is str6. I try to be as polite as possible and take this in mind when I say the following. A good half of your points are conjecture at best and exaggeration at worst. If you can clean up your points to edit these bits out I would be more than glad to have a discourse on the issues you stated simply because I enjoy doing so. But the whole dakka hyperbole whirlpool got old for me about a month ago.

Edit. I have grossly exaggerated the amount of hyperbole you have set forth. Its not half. About 20% perhaps . Im running a fever right now soam a bit cranky. Ill get back to you on the scarabs + warcouncil when im better. Very sorry for that flippant reply.

I don't know if Traitor Legions will make CSM "good" so to speak, but it's given them the shot in the arm that the army desperately needed. They're certainly better off now than they were before Traitors Legions (imo)

 War Kitten wrote:
I don't know if Traitor Legions will make CSM "good" so to speak, but it's given them the shot in the arm that the army desperately needed. They're certainly better off now than they were before Traitors Legions (imo)

My 12 year old just used it to fight a pretty good Grey Knights player who is no noob. He killed about 80% of the enemy army and my son REALLY is new to the game. So that was encouraging. Using an army he didnt write in a game he kind of understands, about five games ever and a new codex... I'd call that a very good showing. Twas fun to hear about his/my Raptor Talon ripping stuff up. I kind of watched from afar while I fought off the new Agents of the Imperium book on my table.

 Drasius wrote:
Man, I used to rely on those force axes to actually make them moderately worrying to MC's. Now what the hell am I going to do (apart from stop taking Rubricae at all when I can help it)?

Rubrics are Fearless, and 3++ under a Blessing. So I'm guessing their job is to soak damage until your CC beatsticks decide to get stuck in.

You've also got Seer's Bane, which is a pretty spectacular item for squishing MCs.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
Man, I used to rely on those force axes to actually make them moderately worrying to MC's. Now what the hell am I going to do (apart from stop taking Rubricae at all when I can help it)?

Rubrics are Fearless, and 3++ under a Blessing. So I'm guessing their job is to soak damage until your CC beatsticks decide to get stuck in.

You've also got Seer's Bane, which is a pretty spectacular item for squishing MCs.

Yes, they're fearless and can have a 3++, but they can't really kill anything. When their sorceror used to have a str5 AP2 force weapons, even dreadknights were a bit worried (but not that much because they're a character and can challenge out the sarge and the sarge must accept because of champtions of chaos) since it was 4's to hit, 5's to wound and 5's to save while only a single wound needed to go through. Same deal with other T6 >4+ save MC's. Now? Yeah, wounding on 4's but with a 3+ or 2+ save, those MC's are far, far less scared of the sorceror than they used to be. Given that, IMHO, you need to be running a full War Cabal so you don't get blown off the table, you don't really have ant CC beatsticks and as for the Bane, well, it's a choice between an exalted OR the Bane OR the grimoure, you can only have 1 of the 3 at 1850. Guess I'll have to try and get the job done via shriek/devolution/life leech/etc now even more than before. It's just another indignity heaped onto the Sons just when yout thought that they couldn't get worse, and for the life of me, other than the fact that that's the option on the front of the box, I really see no reason for the change, especially when their previous mini, the only one available since they've had a kit for the last 20+ years and one of the most iconic minis the Sons have, has had a sword. Which is now illegal. Because Reasons.

Does "Traitors Legion" make CSM good? -the three main criteria of the hobby are fluff, rules, and modeling. The book finally gives us what we need to fit the fiction better than we could before. The rules drastically correct many of the point imbalances between our rules and other armies and makes CSM a competitor. There are now so many more conversion opportunities than there were a month ago and we will be having fun building these armies.

So yes it's good!

As far as making the most of it, I think the best yet to be determined Chaos army isn't going to be a singular Legion/book list. I think it will end up being some combination of detachments taken from more than one CSM books that makes use of their different advantages to create optimized specialization and synergy.

For example, if you want obj-sec Obliterators you take a CAD of Iron Warriors, but the next detachment could be World Eaters... where by you're holding objectives and firing tank hunting weapons from the rear while Berzerkers press hard into early game assaults.

 Drasius wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
Man, I used to rely on those force axes to actually make them moderately worrying to MC's. Now what the hell am I going to do (apart from stop taking Rubricae at all when I can help it)?

Rubrics are Fearless, and 3++ under a Blessing. So I'm guessing their job is to soak damage until your CC beatsticks decide to get stuck in.

You've also got Seer's Bane, which is a pretty spectacular item for squishing MCs.

Yes, they're fearless and can have a 3++, but they can't really kill anything. When their sorceror used to have a str5 AP2 force weapons, even dreadknights were a bit worried (but not that much because they're a character and can challenge out the sarge and the sarge must accept because of champtions of chaos) since it was 4's to hit, 5's to wound and 5's to save while only a single wound needed to go through. Same deal with other T6 >4+ save MC's. Now? Yeah, wounding on 4's but with a 3+ or 2+ save, those MC's are far, far less scared of the sorceror than they used to be. Given that, IMHO, you need to be running a full War Cabal so you don't get blown off the table, you don't really have ant CC beatsticks and as for the Bane, well, it's a choice between an exalted OR the Bane OR the grimoure, you can only have 1 of the 3 at 1850. Guess I'll have to try and get the job done via shriek/devolution/life leech/etc now even more than before. It's just another indignity heaped onto the Sons just when yout thought that they couldn't get worse, and for the life of me, other than the fact that that's the option on the front of the box, I really see no reason for the change, especially when their previous mini, the only one available since they've had a kit for the last 20+ years and one of the most iconic minis the Sons have, has had a sword. Which is now illegal. Because Reasons.

Sorry but since when was any Monstrous Creatures afraid of charging Rubrics? You'd have to have successfully casted Force and anticipated the charge, which means less Warp Charges for other powers.

Monster Hunting is a pretty damn big exaggeration for any capability they had. Which was little to none.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
Man, I used to rely on those force axes to actually make them moderately worrying to MC's. Now what the hell am I going to do (apart from stop taking Rubricae at all when I can help it)?

Rubrics are Fearless, and 3++ under a Blessing. So I'm guessing their job is to soak damage until your CC beatsticks decide to get stuck in.

You've also got Seer's Bane, which is a pretty spectacular item for squishing MCs.

Yes, they're fearless and can have a 3++, but they can't really kill anything. When their sorceror used to have a str5 AP2 force weapons, even dreadknights were a bit worried (but not that much because they're a character and can challenge out the sarge and the sarge must accept because of champtions of chaos) since it was 4's to hit, 5's to wound and 5's to save while only a single wound needed to go through. Same deal with other T6 >4+ save MC's. Now? Yeah, wounding on 4's but with a 3+ or 2+ save, those MC's are far, far less scared of the sorceror than they used to be. Given that, IMHO, you need to be running a full War Cabal so you don't get blown off the table, you don't really have ant CC beatsticks and as for the Bane, well, it's a choice between an exalted OR the Bane OR the grimoure, you can only have 1 of the 3 at 1850. Guess I'll have to try and get the job done via shriek/devolution/life leech/etc now even more than before. It's just another indignity heaped onto the Sons just when yout thought that they couldn't get worse, and for the life of me, other than the fact that that's the option on the front of the box, I really see no reason for the change, especially when their previous mini, the only one available since they've had a kit for the last 20+ years and one of the most iconic minis the Sons have, has had a sword. Which is now illegal. Because Reasons.

Sorry but since when was any Monstrous Creatures afraid of charging Rubrics? You'd have to have successfully casted Force and anticipated the charge, which means less Warp Charges for other powers.

Monster Hunting is a pretty damn big exaggeration for any capability they had. Which was little to none.

It's an exaggeration, but it was at least a theoretically probably to do damage to Marine saves in melee, especially since most Marine armies don't kit for CC anyway, and S&P means you can assault after rapid-fire. MCs cannot Challenge barring the odd Dreadknight or two, but otherwise the 4++ and LOS at least gave a theoretical chance to threaten monsters if you actually got in range

Course, Riptides could just hang back and shoot you, and Flyrants just strafe you, but it *was* theoretically possible...

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
Man, I used to rely on those force axes to actually make them moderately worrying to MC's. Now what the hell am I going to do (apart from stop taking Rubricae at all when I can help it)?

Rubrics are Fearless, and 3++ under a Blessing. So I'm guessing their job is to soak damage until your CC beatsticks decide to get stuck in.

You've also got Seer's Bane, which is a pretty spectacular item for squishing MCs.

Yes, they're fearless and can have a 3++, but they can't really kill anything. When their sorceror used to have a str5 AP2 force weapons, even dreadknights were a bit worried (but not that much because they're a character and can challenge out the sarge and the sarge must accept because of champtions of chaos) since it was 4's to hit, 5's to wound and 5's to save while only a single wound needed to go through. Same deal with other T6 >4+ save MC's. Now? Yeah, wounding on 4's but with a 3+ or 2+ save, those MC's are far, far less scared of the sorceror than they used to be. Given that, IMHO, you need to be running a full War Cabal so you don't get blown off the table, you don't really have ant CC beatsticks and as for the Bane, well, it's a choice between an exalted OR the Bane OR the grimoure, you can only have 1 of the 3 at 1850. Guess I'll have to try and get the job done via shriek/devolution/life leech/etc now even more than before. It's just another indignity heaped onto the Sons just when yout thought that they couldn't get worse, and for the life of me, other than the fact that that's the option on the front of the box, I really see no reason for the change, especially when their previous mini, the only one available since they've had a kit for the last 20+ years and one of the most iconic minis the Sons have, has had a sword. Which is now illegal. Because Reasons.

Sorry but since when was any Monstrous Creatures afraid of charging Rubrics? You'd have to have successfully casted Force and anticipated the charge, which means less Warp Charges for other powers.

Monster Hunting is a pretty damn big exaggeration for any capability they had. Which was little to none.

It's an exaggeration, but it was at least a theoretically probably to do damage to Marine saves in melee, especially since most Marine armies don't kit for CC anyway, and S&P means you can assault after rapid-fire. MCs cannot Challenge barring the odd Dreadknight or two, but otherwise the 4++ and LOS at least gave a theoretical chance to threaten monsters if you actually got in range

Course, Riptides could just hang back and shoot you, and Flyrants just strafe you, but it *was* theoretically possible...

And it still is, you just have to throw a 6 to wound instead of a 5, most MC's don't have a 2+ armour bar Riptides (which we established already were out of reach) and NDK's.

That said I think the single best thing about thousand sons that gets far less credit than it deserves is the updated discipline of Tzeentch.
Yes boon of chaos and Breath of chaos are still there but there's less chance of getting them. All the other powers are fine at worst.

Most MCs are T6 and 3+ armor.

The staff is AP 4.

Siphon Magic does nothing for ML 1 casters, Devolution is admittedly cute, and Treason rocks. The odds of getting a really good power are 1 in 3 still, a decent one 1 in 3, and a crap power usually still 1 in 3. The drawback is the odds of getting Doombolt are now 1 in 6. Alas.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Most MCs are T6 and 3+ armor.

The staff is AP 4.

Siphon Magic does nothing for ML 1 casters, Devolution is admittedly cute, and Treason rocks. The odds of getting a really good power are 1 in 3 still, a decent one 1 in 3, and a crap power usually still 1 in 3. The drawback is the odds of getting Doombolt are now 1 in 6. Alas.

Isn't Siphon Magic a Blessing and therefore can grant the unit a +1 on their Invuls? Or am I not remembering the Thousand Sons bonus correctly?

It wouldn't be good but at least it wouldn't be bad.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Most MCs are T6 and 3+ armor.

The staff is AP 4.

Siphon Magic does nothing for ML 1 casters, Devolution is admittedly cute, and Treason rocks. The odds of getting a really good power are 1 in 3 still, a decent one 1 in 3, and a crap power usually still 1 in 3. The drawback is the odds of getting Doombolt are now 1 in 6. Alas.

IIRC they can now cast one power above the ML. Doesn't mean that Syphon magic is not an odd power that could be way better.

Siphon magic mattered against Magnus.

The Rehati Formation with Flying Daemon Princes would be THE PERFECT target for a Dark Eldar Crucible of Malediction because they tend to flock togehter to stay in range of the Shrouding Psyker power.

Fun to think about.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
They certainly got much better and you can now officially build a fluffy army if you play any other legion besides Black Legion.

Some formations are very good and you can build a strong strategy behind some of them.

That being said, Chaos Marines are still a fundamentally flawed army in that they are a close combat army that has almost no transport options and most of the units available are still horrendously overcosted.

This summarizes it quite nicely.
Too pt pricey and no real transport options.
On the other hand, one can build a fluffy army with nice new models.