Tempestor Prime: WS: 5, BS: 6, S: 3, T: 3, W: 3, I: 4, A: 3, Ld: 9, Sv: 4+ pts: 80
equipment: Hot-Shot Lasgun with auxiliary grenade launcher, Hot-Shot Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, Carapace Armor, Refractor Field, Auspex, Frag, Krak, Haywire and Defensive grenades, Clarion Vox System
)

Jbz` wrote:

Tempestor Prime: WS: 5, BS: 6, S: 3, T: 3, W: 3, I: 4, A: 3, Ld: 9, Sv: 4+ pts: 80
equipment: Hot-Shot Lasgun with auxiliary grenade launcher, Hot-Shot Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, Carapace Armor, Refractor Field, Auspex, Frag, Krak, Haywire and Defensive grenades, Clarion Vox System
)

One thing I'm going to suggest: Drop the refractor field from the basic equipment and add it back as an optional purchase (with appropriately adjusted points cost)
Yes many people would still buy it anyway but some people (me included) would prefer a cheaper character especially as his T of 3 is likely to mean any failed save will likely cause him ID

 Bobthehero wrote:
Commissar Lords BS can match a Captain BS, so post human doesn't mean outside of reach of well trained veterans, and since they'd focus more on shooting, it makes sense

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Scions are the peak of human efficiency?
But in general I don't think you should be inventing dozens of new things when things already exist to fill that role. Where possible take the already existing and tweak it imo.
For example 'Foedus Rover Squadrons' why not just use Taurox?

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Sniper Scions are pretty cool, as would melee Scions. But can't normal Scions already exchange their HS-lasguns for CCWs?

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Do you need a Victory class Valkyrie? Why? You have the Vendetta, why not add the Vulture.
What exactly will Ignis scions be? Special Weapons teams.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

You need to be careful though that you don't step on the Elysian or D-99's toes if you're using things like Vultures.

epronovost wrote:

Jbz` wrote:

Tempestor Prime: WS: 5, BS: 6, S: 3, T: 3, W: 3, I: 4, A: 3, Ld: 9, Sv: 4+ pts: 80
equipment: Hot-Shot Lasgun with auxiliary grenade launcher, Hot-Shot Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, Carapace Armor, Refractor Field, Auspex, Frag, Krak, Haywire and Defensive grenades, Clarion Vox System
)

One thing I'm going to suggest: Drop the refractor field from the basic equipment and add it back as an optional purchase (with appropriately adjusted points cost)
Yes many people would still buy it anyway but some people (me included) would prefer a cheaper character especially as his T of 3 is likely to mean any failed save will likely cause him ID

Agreed on that point. He is a bit pricey barebone like that. I will change it immediatly with a few other adjustment.

For those wondering, I will not change his BS back to 5. Veridyan, a canoness has BS 7 and, in my version, regular canoness had WS 6. They make a nice mirror to Space Marine Captain, and Space Marine in general, who are much knightly and focus on close combat. It's a lot, but Scions are at peak of human efficiency and have lots of tools to assist their accuracy, thus I don't think it's this far fetched. L it I would also say that a BS 6 doesn't provide as much advantages as a WS 6.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Your Tempestor Prime? Not so. There are possibly more Tempestor Primes in the galaxy than there are probably Space Marines, let alone Captains. Just calculating the bare minimum of canon Scion regiments that exist (found on Lexicanum), we get 6082 Tempestor Primes, assuming of course that there is at least one Tempestor Prime per Scion Regiment. That may be higher. And that's just the canon ones recorded - and I'm fairly sure that there are more than 9 Regiments of Iotan Gryphonnes.
So, I think it's reasonable to assume that we could easily have a LOT of Tempestor Primes running around.

And yet your "average" unnamed Tempestor Prime, at peak human efficiency and with possible targeters, is as good a shot as the best recorded Space Marine marksman, who has all the Astartes implants, equipment of worthy of a First Founding Chapter, and centuries of experience? Sorry, I don't buy it.
We can eliminate targeters as a reasoning, because Space Marines would have targeters of a similar quality, if not better, so the only determining factor comes to skill. Skill which a Space Marine, an already peak-performance human before boosted to demi-godly tier with implants, has honed over centuries. Compared to just the peak-performance human and decades of experience?

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Sorry, I meant Tauros. Basically a buggy mounting a heavy flamer or multilaser

You get heavy weapons Tauros Venator versions as well. Mounting a TW-lascannon.

Your Victory Pattern Valkyrie sounds exactly like a slimmed down Vendetta if it's a smaller capacity designed for air superiority.
Why do you need 2 aircraft doing exactly the same thing?

Maybe instead of adding entire unique aircraft, why not add some unique upgrades to represent the elite status of the Tempestus?
Such as Reinforced Armour (+AV), or being able to mount autocannons, or lascannons or whatever on your fliers.

What's the logic behind of Ignis troopers? ''Hey let's a unit with the best bits of the entire codex''?.

You've got heavily armoured melee troops (I'm assuming these would be power armoured?) and stealthy troops, I think they would be better as just special weapons troops.
Speaking of heavily armoured guys, why not make them assault troops instead of just melee troops. So the choice of melee weapons or shotguns or something.

Elysian Drop Troops are essentially paratroopers.
100% flyer type stuff. They use some small vehicles which are all air lifted.
D99 are essentially genehanced elite Elysians. They have dedicated sniper and special weapons teams.
If you're going for a airbourne Tempestus force that sounds a lot like D99 + HS-lasguns.

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Your Tempestor Prime? Not so. There are possibly more Tempestor Primes in the galaxy than there are probably Space Marines, let alone Captains. Just calculating the bare minimum of canon Scion regiments that exist (found on Lexicanum), we get 6082 Tempestor Primes, assuming of course that there is at least one Tempestor Prime per Scion Regiment. That may be higher. And that's just the canon ones recorded - and I'm fairly sure that there are more than 9 Regiments of Iotan Gryphonnes.
So, I think it's reasonable to assume that we could easily have a LOT of Tempestor Primes running around.

And yet your "average" unnamed Tempestor Prime, at peak human efficiency and with possible targeters, is as good a shot as the best recorded Space Marine marksman, who has all the Astartes implants, equipment of worthy of a First Founding Chapter, and centuries of experience? Sorry, I don't buy it.
We can eliminate targeters as a reasoning, because Space Marines would have targeters of a similar quality, if not better, so the only determining factor comes to skill. Skill which a Space Marine, an already peak-performance human before boosted to demi-godly tier with implants, has honed over centuries. Compared to just the peak-performance human and decades of experience?

Where I do see some problem is that it implies that Space Marine live longer than humans which is dubious at best. Rejuvenat treatment is common amongst nobles and officers.

Scions and Tempestor Prime being both can be centuries old without any problem. Thus experience is a moot point.

Training is also a moot point considering that Scion training is about as difficult and rigorous as that of Space Marines.

It involve real combat, starts from the age of 6, is given by experimented trainers and is composed of multiple deadly tests.

Space Marines Captain are in the top 1 tier out of a 100 of all Space Marines. Tempestor Prime in the top 1 tier out of a 1000 Scions. Thus, in terms of proportion, there is a lot more Space Marine Captain than Tempestor Prime.

Finally, Space Marine captain have little option of range weapons, amongst other thing, because they are expected to fight like feudal knights not like modern soldiers or Skirmshers.

They lead from the front.

Tellion is a sniper. He uses no target aid since he doesn't have a power armor or a tactical helmet.

He fires a heavily modifiedbolter which is probably a much more difficult weapon to fire than a Hot-Shot Lasgun which has almost no recoil and is isn't affected as much by various battlefield condition like heavy rain, wind or intense gravity.

I would say that Tellion is better than a Tempestor Prime, but that a scale of 1 to 10 doesn't allow us to represent it faithfully.

Yet I do think that a man or woman specialised in range combat will be better with time than a man specialised in close combat in range combat, especially if the former has as much time and comes form a bigger pool of recruits than the later.

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Your Tempestor Prime? Not so. There are possibly more Tempestor Primes in the galaxy than there are probably Space Marines, let alone Captains. Just calculating the bare minimum of canon Scion regiments that exist (found on Lexicanum), we get 6082 Tempestor Primes, assuming of course that there is at least one Tempestor Prime per Scion Regiment. That may be higher. And that's just the canon ones recorded - and I'm fairly sure that there are more than 9 Regiments of Iotan Gryphonnes.
So, I think it's reasonable to assume that we could easily have a LOT of Tempestor Primes running around.

And yet your "average" unnamed Tempestor Prime, at peak human efficiency and with possible targeters, is as good a shot as the best recorded Space Marine marksman, who has all the Astartes implants, equipment of worthy of a First Founding Chapter, and centuries of experience? Sorry, I don't buy it.
We can eliminate targeters as a reasoning, because Space Marines would have targeters of a similar quality, if not better, so the only determining factor comes to skill. Skill which a Space Marine, an already peak-performance human before boosted to demi-godly tier with implants, has honed over centuries. Compared to just the peak-performance human and decades of experience?

Where I do see some problem is that it implies that Space Marine live longer than humans which is dubious at best. Rejuvenat treatment is common amongst nobles and officers. Scions and Tempestor Prime being both can be centuries old without any problem. Thus experience is a moot point. Training is also a moot point considering that Scion training is about as difficult and rigorous as that of Space Marines. It involve real combat, starts from the age of 6, is given by experimented trainers and is composed of multiple deadly tests. Space Marines Captain are in the top 1 tier out of a 100 of all Space Marines. Tempestor Prime in the top 1 tier out of a 1000 Scions. Thus, in terms of proportion, there is a lot more Space Marine Captain than Tempestor Prime. Finally, Space Marine captain have little option of range weapons, amongst other thing, because they are expected to fight like feudal knights not like modern soldiers or Skirmshers. They lead from the front. Tellion is a sniper. He uses no target aid since he doesn't have a power armor or a tactical helmet. He fires a bolter which is probably a much more difficult weapon to fire than a Hot-Shot Lasgun which has almost no recoil and is isn't affected as much by various battlefield condition like heavy rain, wind or intense gravity. I would say that Tellion is better than a Tempestor Prime, but that a scale of 1 to 10 doesn't allow us to represent it faithfully. Yet I do think that a man or woman specialised in range combat will be better with time than a man specialised in close combat in range combat, especially if the former has as much time and comes form a bigger pool of recruits than the later.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Your Tempestor Prime? Not so. There are possibly more Tempestor Primes in the galaxy than there are probably Space Marines, let alone Captains. Just calculating the bare minimum of canon Scion regiments that exist (found on Lexicanum), we get 6082 Tempestor Primes, assuming of course that there is at least one Tempestor Prime per Scion Regiment. That may be higher. And that's just the canon ones recorded - and I'm fairly sure that there are more than 9 Regiments of Iotan Gryphonnes.
So, I think it's reasonable to assume that we could easily have a LOT of Tempestor Primes running around.

And yet your "average" unnamed Tempestor Prime, at peak human efficiency and with possible targeters, is as good a shot as the best recorded Space Marine marksman, who has all the Astartes implants, equipment of worthy of a First Founding Chapter, and centuries of experience? Sorry, I don't buy it.
We can eliminate targeters as a reasoning, because Space Marines would have targeters of a similar quality, if not better, so the only determining factor comes to skill. Skill which a Space Marine, an already peak-performance human before boosted to demi-godly tier with implants, has honed over centuries. Compared to just the peak-performance human and decades of experience?

Where I do see some problem is that it implies that Space Marine live longer than humans which is dubious at best. Rejuvenat treatment is common amongst nobles and officers. Scions and Tempestor Prime being both can be centuries old without any problem. Thus experience is a moot point. Training is also a moot point considering that Scion training is about as difficult and rigorous as that of Space Marines. It involve real combat, starts from the age of 6, is given by experimented trainers and is composed of multiple deadly tests. Space Marines Captain are in the top 1 tier out of a 100 of all Space Marines. Tempestor Prime in the top 1 tier out of a 1000 Scions. Thus, in terms of proportion, there is a lot more Space Marine Captain than Tempestor Prime. Finally, Space Marine captain have little option of range weapons, amongst other thing, because they are expected to fight like feudal knights not like modern soldiers or Skirmshers. They lead from the front. Tellion is a sniper. He uses no target aid since he doesn't have a power armor or a tactical helmet. He fires a bolter which is probably a much more difficult weapon to fire than a Hot-Shot Lasgun which has almost no recoil and is isn't affected as much by various battlefield condition like heavy rain, wind or intense gravity. I would say that Tellion is better than a Tempestor Prime, but that a scale of 1 to 10 doesn't allow us to represent it faithfully. Yet I do think that a man or woman specialised in range combat will be better with time than a man specialised in close combat in range combat, especially if the former has as much time and comes form a bigger pool of recruits than the later.

Dubious at best? You're not serious are you?

 Bobthehero wrote:
What sort of enhancements are used to make Vindicares BS8, I could see the Imperium offering something similar but not as efficient to their Primes

 JNAProductions wrote:
More than that, BS 6 is around a 3% improvement over BS 5. Do you care that much about BS 6 that you're willing to twist fluff to make it fit?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
In many entries, you make reference to "you must buy *squad leader* for X points". Why is this an option?

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
In many entries, you make reference to "you must buy *squad leader* for X points". Why is this an option?

I had that comment on another of my Fandex (the Grotvolution Gretchin one). It's purely for layout convenience. I am seriously considering to rename the section upgrade instead of option because of this. I thought it would be simpler to have all the extra you can buy for a squad or character in the same place, including the mandatory one.

As for your question, I will attack officialy the gear section today and tomorrow, but as a sneak peek for you, the mirror cloak is granting the special rule stealth (or conceal if the unit already has stealth) as it mirror surrounding environment. The Shock Sword is a weapon with a powerfield that's design to stun in addition to cut. It gives the weilder a close combat weapon with bonus of +2 in strength and an AP of 6. The power shield gives a 5+ invulnerable save and count as an extra close combat weapon, auspex reduce the scatterdistance when you deep strike by 1d6.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Mirror Cloak: So, it's a camocloak? Those grant +1 cover save.
Shock sword: I would have thought it'd be something like a concussive power sword.
Power shield: Why does it count as a CCW? No other shields in the game do that.
Auspex: Normally scanner thingymebobs are carried by a unit on the ground, and negate scatter for a unit deep striking within X inches (normally 6). The fluff for deep striking Tempestus is that they're doing a HALO jump right? If you want it to have that effect why not call it 'vectored grav chutes' or something.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The codex has augury arrays that reduce scatter

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


Additionally, I'd suggest making a difference between the power shield and the refractor field. At the current moment, they give exactly the same benefit. I would suggest bumping the power shield up to a 4++, but they can never have a bonus for two CCWs in combat if they choose to use it. So they can gain extra attack power if they want it, but against other targets, they may want to use their shields. That brings it in line more with things like storm shields, differentiates it to the refractor field, and gives the player tactical choice.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I think you should just have Camo-cloaks for +1 Cover Save, and let it stack with Stealth.

Just call it a camo-cloak, and leave it at that. No need to invent something that already exists.

Additionally, I'd suggest making a difference between the power shield and the refractor field. At the current moment, they give exactly the same benefit. I would suggest bumping the power shield up to a 4++, but they can never have a bonus for two CCWs in combat if they choose to use it. So they can gain extra attack power if they want it, but against other targets, they may want to use their shields. That brings it in line more with things like storm shields, differentiates it to the refractor field, and gives the player tactical choice.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Is there any reason why you've made hotshot lasguns assault 2 rather than rapid fire?
And why is the smg essentially pistol 4, since smgs are generally 2 handed weapons? I could get behind those being assault 2.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Is there any reason why you've made hotshot lasguns assault 2 rather than rapid fire?
And why is the smg essentially pistol 4, since smgs are generally 2 handed weapons? I could get behind those being assault 2.

Probably because the Hotshot Lasgun SHOULD be Assault 2. Quite frankly that fix alone makes them a pretty decent unit.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Well say it's a hotshot Uzi then, it should have a range of about 6'' then. Also keeps the ranges working in multiples of 6.
When you say hotshot smg I think of something more like an MP5.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The normal Scion Lord Commissar gets WS/BS5, so does the Commissar-General (Lord equivalent from the Krieg army)

Tempestor Primes and D99 Elysians are I4, so that's within human reach. Scions are special forces, if Kriegsmen can be WS4 then so can the elite human.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Stormtroopers used to have both the pistol and the CCW, the Scion codex changed that, to the dismay of many people.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Well their numbers are low, their attacks are weak and slow, it was a way to make then not completely fold when they got in melee.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Deadeye shot warlord trait seems a bit... random. Surely that should give something like rending, precision shots, or preferred enemy.

Army detachments tend to sacrifice ObSec for their chosen benefits (or at least my Blood Angels or Flesh Tearers do). I don't see why your's shouldn't.

Why do all scions start with a HS-lasgun, HS-laspistol AND a CCW? I don't think they should get a CCW, you said yourself these aren't melee troops, even astartes don't get those.
Secondly, when you say they may buy grenades, you should say that the UNIT may purchase grenades at X points PER MODEL. Otherwise you would just give one guy the grenades for the whole squad.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Also your Ignis Scions are paying 2pts per model to gain conceal, +1 attack and conceal.
That is a lot for very cheap.
And why do all Scions get stealth? Oh and currently you have every Command Scion model equipped with a Clarion Vox Net, might want to specify it's only one of them.
Also I couldn't see what conceal did anywhere.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Your Victory Prime is just a supped up cheaper Vulture.
Significantly so.
You've done the same thing with the Venators. Why?

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Armis Scions have 3 one-handed weapons. Pistol, sword and shield.

Even your Insidius Sniper Scions have CCWs...

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Why isn't the shield generator a skimmer?

Also you need to specify things better.
Things like the self repair system, when do you roll that dice? How many dice can you roll at once? Can you roll that dice again?

 kirotheavenger wrote:

In the BRB Extra Armour counts any crew stunned results as crew shaken instead.

Your HS-snipers don't have the sniper special rule?
Why are giant slayer missiles A: called Giant slayer (they're anti-vehicle) and B: blast?
The power spear say it's S:-/+1 AP:4/3 why?

 kirotheavenger wrote:

I think that's all my thoughts for the first pass
I know I'm taking the position of the naysayer, but those played a vital role in the kings courts

I wish I could help you to tighten up your grammar a little, if you like I could just copy/paste the whole thing, then you copy/paste it back with my corrections

 Bobthehero wrote:
Ooooh, are you from the Montreal region?

 Bobthehero wrote:
3 Str 3 Attack at I3-4 is not resilient or powerful.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
3 Str 3 Attack at I3-4 is not resilient or powerful.

Comparative points of a basic Deathwatch Marine (WS4, S4, I4, A2 for 22 points) against a points equivalent of basic Scions (WS3, S3, I3, A2 x2).

epronovost wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Deadeye shot warlord trait seems a bit... random. Surely that should give something like rending, precision shots, or preferred enemy.

Army detachments tend to sacrifice ObSec for their chosen benefits (or at least my Blood Angels or Flesh Tearers do). I don't see why your's shouldn't.

Why do all scions start with a HS-lasgun, HS-laspistol AND a CCW? I don't think they should get a CCW, you said yourself these aren't melee troops, even astartes don't get those.
Secondly, when you say they may buy grenades, you should say that the UNIT may purchase grenades at X points PER MODEL. Otherwise you would just give one guy the grenades for the whole squad.

Since they are so low in number, about as numerous as Space Marines and are not nearly as good in close combat, they needed a little buff to survive charges from weak close combat units. Plus, Chaos Space Marines do have this option and frankly so should Space Marines.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Also your Ignis Scions are paying 2pts per model to gain conceal, +1 attack and conceal.
That is a lot for very cheap.
And why do all Scions get stealth? Oh and currently you have every Command Scion model equipped with a Clarion Vox Net, might want to specify it's only one of them.
Also I couldn't see what conceal did anywhere.

Scion get stealth since they are stealth specialist. Preety much all scout unit in the game have the Stealth and/or Shrouded special rule. Since its an entire army of scouts, all their units have Stealth, except Commissars.

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
3 Str 3 Attack at I3-4 is not resilient or powerful.

Comparative points of a basic Deathwatch Marine (WS4, S4, I4, A2 for 22 points) against a points equivalent of basic Scions (WS3, S3, I3, A2 x2).

Considering And They Shall Know No Fear, the higher Ld, T and Sv of the Deathwatch Marine, the Scions, even with an extra close combat weapon are weaker and more fragile.

epronovost wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Ooooh, are you from the Montreal region?

Yes, you too?

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I would agree with others, you said yourself Scions aren't meant to be melee guys, they should act it.

As Smudge said, Scions are shock troopers. Not stealth troopers.

epronovost wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I would agree with others, you said yourself Scions aren't meant to be melee guys, they should act it.

As Smudge said, Scions are shock troopers. Not stealth troopers.

They are evidently both considering how they are used on the board and according to their own codex. Their Stealth Drop behind enemy lines are their most famous actions. They drop, creep and shoot you to death.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I would agree with others, you said yourself Scions aren't meant to be melee guys, they should act it.

As Smudge said, Scions are shock troopers. Not stealth troopers.

They are evidently both considering how they are used on the board and according to their own codex. Their Stealth Drop behind enemy lines are their most famous actions. They drop, creep and shoot you to death.

But then consider Space Marine Scouts, whom cut out the drop in and just go all sneaky beaky like. They don't have stealth.
If you wanted to represent that, take infiltrate. Not scout though, Scions are not the outriders of their force, they are their force.

Or maybe, instead of you cramming everything Scions into into their core rules, give them formations for it.

[I'm gak at naming things] but you could like an infiltration specialist force. Confers infiltrate and scout, has maybe a few sniper teams, a few Scion teams. Probably should remove their deep strike in this formation.
I believe the current Tempestus codex has a formation for an aerial assault group.
That kind of thing.

Also I PMed you

epronovost wrote:
Designer Notes

Spoiler:

As a relatively rare player of a Millitarum Tempestus army, I am a huge fan of a fast and precise army of "normal" human beings. As of now, the Millitarum Tempestus codex is merely an expansion or an experiment to see if such an army could be viable. While Scions themselves are decent units with very nice models, the army as a whole suffers from a ridiculously small unit selection which severely limits its capacity to operate beyond the 750 pts mark. This codex is an attempt at making what a fully supported and updated Millitarum Tempestus army could look like. I designed it to alleviate the rather unremarkable performance of the basic Tempestus Scions, offer them more tools to be faster and more precise than before. I wanted them to be capable of adapting to various mission objectives and enemies by relying on speed and pinpoint firepower. Unlike Space Marines, this army isn't resilient and powerful in close combat despite having a unit capable of handling itself rather nicely in that domain. Unlike regular guard, Tempestus don't have heavy tanks and, especially, heavy artillery. Unlike my own version of the Sisters of Battle who excelled against horde armies and were geared for close combat and close range firefights, Scions remain more mobile and more fragile if just as skilled. All in all, it sits nicely as a rather unique Imperial army that has more in common with Harlequins or Craftworld Eldar than anything else. The gothic aspect of the Imperium is more absent from this army which operates and feels more like a pseudo special force than anything else. This aspect allows it to stand apart further from the Sisters of Battle with whom they share the niche of elite human soldiers.

Introduction

Spoiler:

coming soon

Play Testing Notes

Spoiler:

coming soon

Special Rules

Spoiler:

Scion: The men and women of the Millitarum Tempestus were raised from early infancy to be the perfect soldiers: intelligent, skilled, brave and above all obedient to orders. All units composed entirely of Militarum Tempestus models with this Special Rule can reroll failed Leadership test for orders and can still attempt to regroup normally even when they are below 25%.

Officer: All armies rely on a chain of command and the tactical guidance of their officers to achieve victory over, sometimes, superior forces. Officers of the Millitarum Tempestus are excellent tactician and can provide great support to their troops. Any model with this special rule can issue a single order at the beginning of the movement phase to himself and his squad.

Voice of Command: Veteran officers are known for their quick thinking and their capacity to relay precise instructions to distant troops even in the harshest battlezones. In this fashion they almost appear o be in multiple places at the same time, always when the fight requires their knowledge and their experience. A model with this Special Rule can apply the Officer Special Rule to any squad with 18 inches of himself.

Precise Jump: Scions are experts in Grav-chute insertion. They are known for attacking from the sky with pinpoint accuracy despite all odds. A unit containing at least one model with this special rule scatters 1d6 less arriving via deep strike.

Summary Execution: Even the very best soldiers will fail at some point. They will be afraid or will make mistakes. Such a thing is unacceptable to the Imperium. The price of failure and weakness is too high to be tolerated. Someone will have to die to serve as a lesson to the rest. Should a unit lead by a Commissar fail a leadership test, the Commissar will execute a soldier to bolster the moral of his squad. Roll a d6 on a 2+, the controlling player chooses a member of the squad who failed the leadership test and remove it as a casualty. The test is then considered as an automatic success. On a 1, the opposing must decide the model to be removed. A commissar will never execute himself neither will he execute another commissar.

Aura of Discipline: Commissar Lords are incredible individual who are an inspiration to all who see them. All of them carry with them their own personal legends and act of insane heroism. The Stubborn special rule of the Commissar Lord and his leadership extend to all Scion units within 6 inches of the Commissar Lord and his unit. Furthermore, all unit fleeing that enter his Aura of Command automatically pass regroup tests.

Scion's Orders: Scions are incredibly discipline soldiers trained to apply a variety of tactics at their officers command and with their guidance. This allows them to surpass themselves and make their actions much more efficient than the total of their individual skills. Each model with the Officer Special Rule can choose one of the orders below to apply to himself and his squad at the beginning of the movement phase. The order, inorder to take effect, requires a successful leadership test from the targeted unit. All benefits are lost at the beginning of your next movement phase, unless the order is enacted again.

Suppressive Fire: The Scions are directed to suppress enemy advances against their position. The unit can fire overwatch with the penalty reduced by 1, thus firing at Ballistic Skill 2

Priority Target: The Scions are to concentrate their firepower and their shots on the vulnerable points of a large and dangerous target. The unit gains the Rending Special Rule on all its range weapons when targeting a vehicle, super heavy vehicle, gargantuan creature, or a monstrous creature.

Mark Your Target: The Scions are ordered to carefully aim with their main weapon before taking their shots to maximise damage at long range. The unit weapon profile for any Hot-Shot Lasguns, Hot-Shot SMGs and/or Hot-Shot Volleyguns changes for the following for all relevant weapons within the unit: Hot-Shot Lasgun: range: 30, S: X, AP: 3, Heavy 1, sniper, Hot-Shot SMG: range: 15, S: X, AP: 3, Heavy 2, sniper, Hot-Shot Volleygun: range: 36 S: 4, AP: 3. Heavy 4

Intensify Fire: The Scions are directed to fire and reload as fast as possible with no concern for ammunition preservation to dislocate an enemy formation. The unit weapons are all considered twin-linked.

Rapid Advance: The Scions are told to move as fast as possible up the battlefield to gain some advance all the while using their weapons to keep the enemy under pressure. The unit gains the Fleet Special Rule and can still fire at normal Ballistic Skill after running.

Close Assault: The Scions are told to assault the enemy in close combat to take an objective from him. The unit gain the Crusader and Furious Charge Special Rule.

Warlord Traits

Spoiler:

1) Failure isn't an Option: The warlord isn't a leader who will accept defeat or failure. He is going to fight to the bitter end no matter what. The warlord gain the fearless Special Rule.

2) Drop Trooper Specialist: The warlord is a specialist when it comes to commanding airborne attacks. His drop troopers have great precision. All units in the same formation/detachment as the warlord Precise Jump Special Rule. If they already have it, they don't scatter at all when deep striking.

3) Inspired Tactician: The warlord is an incredible tactician. He seems to be capable of predicting every enemy move and directs his troops to counter them. The warlord can give an extra order per turn.

4) Dead Eye Shot: The warlord is a peerless marksman. He only needs one shot to kill. The warlord ranged attacks cause Instant Death on enemy Characters.

5) Marksman instructor: The warlord has trained his troops to be above the standards in marksmanship so they can take on more difficult targets with greater confidence. All infantry units within 6' of the warlord who haven't moved during their turn can add 6' to the range of all their weapons during the shooting phase.

6) Infiltrator: The warlord relys on infiltrating units behind the enemy line to disrupt them and prevent them from moving into action against him. The enemy army suffer a -1 modifier to all their reserve rolls and you may attempt to Steal the Initiative on a 5+.

Detachment

Spoiler:

Mandatory: 1 HQ, 1 Troop, 1 Fast Attack

Optional: 1 HQ, 3 Troops, 5 Fast Attack, 2 Elites, 3 Heavy Support

Benefits: Objectived Secure on Troop choices (does not extend to dedicated transports of troop units), Reroll Warlord Traits, Alpha Strike

Alpha Strike: You may make reserve rolls for units in this faction beginning at the start of turn 1.

Formation


Tempestus Dagger

Spoiler:

The forces of the Millitarum Tempestus are precise, fast moving and stealthy. Their training and equipment makes them ideally suited for covert operations and raids. Their silent approach followed by a swift attack makes them extremely dangerous forces to tackle and devastating for the enemy moral. There is little more unnerving for a commander than to know that enemy elite troops can attack at any time. The Tempestus Dagger is the most adaptable and common combat group of the Millitarum Tempestus. It combines various talent and expertise to tackle a wide variety of enemies by focusing on the Scions strengths.

Composition: 1 Tempestor Prime, 0-1 Ignis Scion Squad, 1-2 Tempestus Scion Platoon, 0-1 Aer Scion Squad, 0-1 Insidias Scion Squad

Benefits: Covert Operation Units, Alpha Strike

Covert Operation Units: Scions are consummate drop troopers, but also infiltrators. Should the situation not call for an aerial assault, Scions can apply their remarkable stealth doctrine to infiltrate enemy lines en mass. All units in the formation can replace their Deep Strike Special Rule for the Infiltrate Special Rule.

Ground Assault Formation

Spoiler:

Scions are known for the speed and efficiency of their ground vehicles. Their armored advances are swift and discrete and can be immensely destructive. Squads with a lot of experience in ground assaults are fast to dismount their vehicles and unleash a blinding fusillade of Hot-Shot Lasbolts. Ground Assault Formations are used frequently to establish a beach head in the enemy territory for larger drops during massive assaults. In other circumstances, they serve as outriders for Astra Millitarium Armored Brigades.

Composition: 1 full Tempestus Scion Platoon all mounted in Taurox Prime, 1-2 Squadrons of Venator Primes.

Benefits: Calculated Strike, Surgical Deployment

Calculated Strike: The entire formation can be placed in reserve at the beginning of the game. If you elect to do so, roll a single dice for the entire formation and deploy them all at the same time should the roll be a success.All units within the formation gain the outflank USR. All units possessing one must either begin the game embarked on their transport, or be embarked on their transport when they arrive from reserves.

Surgical Deployment: On the round in which they disembark, all the Tempestus Scion units count their weapon as twin-linked and pinning.

Airborne Assault Formation

Spoiler:

The sister formation of the Ground Assault Formation, the Airborne Assault Formation is used to allow a strong advance via airborne units used when the enemy lines are crumbling to cut off their retreats or prevent them from regrouping. Valkyries allow for a devastating amount of firepower to be applied on a very mobile basis and the Scion Platoons they transport have developed a certain skill for millimetric precision when it comes to jumping from their into the fray. Airborne Assault Formations are also used as reinforcements capable of relieving a massive amount of pressure and rescue sections of the battlefield which have become cut off and isolated.

Composition: 1 full Tempestus Scion Platoon all mounted on Valkyrie Prime, 1-2 Victory Primes

Benefits: Calculated Strike, Low Altitude Jump Specialists

Low Altitude Jump Specialists: Units disembarking via the Grav Chute Insertion special rule only scatter 1d6 when doing so

Mist and Anchor

Spoiler:

coming soon

Aerial Supremacy Squadron

Spoiler:

coming soon

Hoplite Formation

Spoiler:

coming soon

HQ


Tempestor Prime

Spoiler:

The most gifted Scions are those who rise in ranks. They have shown during their training and later on the battlefield that they were not only excellent combatants, masters of their weapons, but also calm collected and intelligent. They must have shown numerous times their tactical acumen and, even more importantly, their drive to learn more about their strengths and weaknesses and that of their enemies. Tempestor Primes are the commanders of the Tempestus Scion regiments. They are the paragon of their kind: fast, precise, disciplined and intelligent. Unlike Astra Millitarum high ranking officers, they operate in the field, sharing all the dangers their soldiers pass. They are discreet and efficient leaders who use their knowledge more than their charisma to direct their troops. They operate in key squads, or even alone in dire circumstances.

Tempestor Prime: WS: 4, BS: 5, S: 3, T: 3, W: 3, I: 4, A: 3, Ld: 9, Sv: 4+ pts: 60
equipment: Hot-Shot Lasgun with auxiliary grenade launcher, Hot-Shot Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, Carapace Armor, Aer Guidance System, Frag, Krak, Haywire and Defensive grenades, Clarion Vox System

Special Rules: Officer, Voice of Command, Scion, Precision Shots, Split Fire, Weapon Master, Stealth, Move Through Cover, Deep Strike, Independent Character

Weapon Master: The Tempestor Prime is a gifted soldier who knows his weapon better than his own person. He can fire twice with a weapon of his choice per round. Should he have a pair of weapons, only one of the two can fire twice since even such a gifted soldier cannot fire that fast. Furthermore, his ability to make Precision Shots is also passed down to any unit he joins.

Unit Composition: 1 (Infantry, character)

Option:

can replace his Hot-Shot Lasgun with auxiliary grenade launcher for a Twin-Linked Hot-Shot SMG for free

can replace his Hot-Shot Laspistol for a Plasma Pistol for (10 pts) or a Bolt Pistol for free

can replace his close combat weapon for a Power Weapon for (10 pts), a Power Fist for (15 pts) or a Shock Sword for (5 pts)

can take an Aer Grav-Chute for (10 pts) or a Camocloak for (10 pts)

can take a Refractor Field for (15 pts)

can take a meltacharge for (5 pts)

can take a single Tempestus Scions Heirloom

Millitarum Tempestus Commissars

Spoiler:

Commissars are feared individuals. Trained in the Scholam like their brothers and sisters of the Millitarum Tempestus and later in the Officio Prefectus academy, they are natural born leaders, charismatic individuals, talented warriors and acute tacticians. In the ranks of the Astra Millitarum, they serve as advisers and enforce discipline with an iron fist. In the Millitarum Tempestus, their role is a bit more extensive. The Astra Millitarum is forced to recognise and tolerate the military traditions and structures of the various worlds of the Imperium and the Commissars, being raised and trained by the Imperium, don't necessarily know and understand them profoundly. To avoid conflict of dogma, their role was restrained to adviser instead of officers. Scions and Commissars though, share the same doctrine and culture. Furthermore, those Commissars who gain the honor of serving as officers in a Scion regiment are the very best of their kind and will be granted the responsibility to serve as adjutants with actual command responsibility beside that of enforcing discipline. While this might make the chain of command a bit more complex and heavy, the small size of the Scion regiment and their near perfect discipline allow them to negate this potential drawback. Commissars of the Millitarum Tempestus allow and push their Scion subordinates to greater feats of courage and excellence and truly help turn the tide of a battle.

Commissar: WS: 4, BS: 4, S: 3, T: 3, W: 2, I: 3, A: 2, Ld: 9, Sv: 4+ pts: 45
Commissar Lord: WS: 5. BS: 5, S: 3, T: 3, W: 3, I: 4, A: 3, Ld: 10, Sv: 4+
equipment: Carapace Armor, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenade

Special Rule: Scion, Stubborn, Aura of Discipline (Commissar Lord only), Officer, Voice of Command (Commissar Lord only), Deep Strike, Independent Character, Summary Execution

Unit Composition: 1 to 3 (Infantry, character)

Option:

a single Commissar in your army can be promoted to Commissar Lord for (15 pts)

can exchange the bolt pistol for a Plasma Pistol for (10 pts)

can exchange the Close Combat Weapon for a Power Weapon for (10 pts) or a Powerfist for (15 pts)

can take a Storm Bolter for (5 pts)

can take a refractor field for (15 pts)

can take a meltacharge for (5 pts)

can take a single Tempestus Scions Heirloom

Elite


Ignis Scion Squad

Spoiler:

Ignis Scions are the very best Scions. They are those who have shown early on the greatest combat aptitudes and the drive to exploit them fully. They are also the Scions with the most battle experience. Each one of them has occupied varied position prior to be promoted to an Ignis Scion squad. Since their early days, they received supplementary training and more guidance from their superior officers and trainers as to exploit their talent. Now, as Ignis Scions, they serve as elite troopers, fighting where the enemy is the strongest, supporting their comrade and getting them out of tight spot. They frequently escort their Tempestor Prime and serves as bodyguard for him the battlefield. Their vast experience of covert operation makes them masters at sabotage and infiltration should they be called to do it. Unfortunately, there is few of them and each loss of an Ignis Scion is even harder to replace than one of their brothers or sisters

Ignis Scion: WS: 4, BS: 4, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 4, A: 2, Ld: 8, Sv: 4+ pts: 20 per model
Ignis Tempestor: WS: 4, BS: 4, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 4, A: 2, Ld: 9, Sv: 4+
equipment: Carapace Armor, Hot-Shot Lasgun with auxiliary grenade launcher, Hot-Shot Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, Camocloak, Frag, Krak grenades

Special Rule: Scion, Move Through Cover, Scout, Deep Strike

Unit Composition: 5 to 10 (infantry)

Option:

One Ignis Scion must be promoted to Ignis Tempestor for (5 pts)

The Ignis Tempestor can replace his Close Combat weapon for a Power Weapon for (10 pts), a Shock Sword for (5 pts), or a Powerfist for (15 pts)

The Ignis Tempestor can replace his Hot-Shot Laspistol for a Bolt Pistol for free, or a Plasma Pistol for (10 pts)

Up to three Ignis Scion can replace their Hot-Shot Lasgun with auxiliary grenade launcher for a Plasma Gun for (10 pts), a Meltagun for (5 pts), a Hot-Shot Volleygun for (5 pts), or a Grenade Launcher for (2 pts)

The unit may take haywire and defensive grenades (2pts per model)

A single Ignis Scion can take an Aer Guidance System for (10 pts) or a Targetter for (10 pts)

A single Ignis Scion can take a demo-charge for (10 pts) or a Meltacharge for (5 pts)

One Ignis Scion can take a Clarion Vox System Relay for (5 pts)

The squad can take a Taurox Prime or a Valkyrie Prime as a dedicated transport

Armis Scion

Spoiler:

Armis Scions are a very specialised group of soldiers. In an army that favors speed and ranged encounter, they are armed and trained for close combat. Thanks to their heavy power shield and their shock swords they have the tools to take down enemies that would normally be far too strong for a normal human being. Nevertheless, each one of them as been selected for their excellent skills in close combat, their strength and their endurance. Armis Scions mostly serves in the bloody corridor fights of ship boarding or as an anvil for the rest to operate from. Using their shield in group they can provide protection to their allies and become extremely hard to shift from a zone should the enemy underestimate them. Despite their large shields, their stealth doctrine remain good enough for them to neither slow down or betray their felloe Scions.

Armis Scion: WS: 4, BS: 4, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 4, A: 1, Ld: 8, Sv: 4+ pts: 16 per model
Armis Tempestor: WS: 4, BS: 4, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 4, A: 1, Ld: 9, Sv: 4+
equipment: Carapace Armor, Shock Sword, Power Shield, Hot-Shot Laspistol, Frag, Krak and Defensive Grenades

Special Rule: Scion, Move Through Cover, Deep Strike, Stealth, Shield Lock

Shield Lock: Armis Scions are trained to use their shield Cooperatively for defensive and offensive purpose. Should they be in base contact with one another, their armor saves improve by 1 step, gain the Counter Attack Special Rule, but they lose Stealth and Move Through Cover.

Unit Composition: 5 to 10 (Infantry)

Option:

One Armis Scion must be promoted to Arnis Tempestor for (5 pts)

All Armis Scion can exchange their Shock Sword for Power Weapon for (5 pts)

Up to two Armis Scions and/or the Armis Tempestor can exchange their Hot-Shot Laspistols for a Bolt Pistol for free, or Plasma Pistol for (10 pts)

The squad can take a Taurox Prime or a Valkyrie Prime as a dedicated transport

Troops


Tempestus Scion Platoon (1 Scion Command Squad and 1-4 Tempestus Scion Squad)

Spoiler:

The core of every Scion regiment is the Tempestus Scion Platoon. Each Tempestus Scion is an expertly train soldier. They first graduated in the brutal Schola Progenium where they were mind wiped, indoctrinated to be perfectly obedient and reared to be consummate killers before being put through inhumanly difficult and sometime deadly tests. Those who succeeded, were marked as great soldiers and were not sent to the Officio Prefectus to become Commissars or to the Sisterhood are than sent to the Tempestor Academy where they spent a further 4 years training in an intensive manner in various forms of combat. They learn they peerless stealth doctrine, their renown aerial assaults and extensive survival skills. Those who illustrated themselves in battle and are set to ascend to more elite units are regrouped together in command squads led by Tempestor Secundus. They provide extra experience and protection to those officers as well as more mobile firepower to support their brothers and sisters in arm. Their cohesion and innovative tactics is frequently at the core of their numerous successes.

Command Squad

Tempestus Scion Prime: WS: 4, BS: 4, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 4, A: 1, Ld: 8, Sv: 4+ pts: 16 per model
Tempestor Secundus: WS: 4, BS: 5, S: 3, T: 3, W: 2, I: 4, A: 2 Ld: 9, Sv: 4+
equipment: Carapace Armor, Hot-Shot Lasgun, Hot-Shot Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon (Tempestor Secundus Only), Frag and Krak Grenade, Clarion Vox System (Tempestor Secundus only)

Special Rule: Scion, Move Through Cover, Stealth, Deep Strike, Officer, Voice of Command (Tempestor Secundus only)

Unit Composition: 5 (infantry)

Option:

A single Tempestus Scion Prime must be promoted to a Tempestor Secundus for (12 pts)

The Tempestor Secundus can exchange his Hot-Shot Lasgun for a Hot-Shot Lasgun with an Auxiliary Grenade Launcher for (5 pts)

The Tempestor Secundus can exchange his Hot-Shot Laspistol for a Bolt Pistol for free, or a Plasma Pistol for (10 pts)

The Tempestor Secundus can exchange his Close Combat Weapon for a Power Weapon for (10 pts), a Shock Sword for (5 pts), or a Powerfist for (15 pts)

The Tempestor Secundus can take an Aer Guidance System for (10 pts) or a Targetter for (10 pts)

The Tempestor Secundus can take a Meltacharge for (5 pts)

Any Tempestus Scion prime can exchange their Hot-shot lasguns for one of the following weapon: Plasma Gun (15 pts), Meltagun (10 pts), Grenade Launcher (5 pts), Hot-shot Volleygun (10 pts), or a flamer (5 pts)

Of those Tempestus Scion Primes not upgraded as above

One Tempestus Scion Prime can take a health kit for (10 pts)

One Tempestus Scion Prime can take a Clarion Vox System Relay for (5 pts)

One Tempestus Scion Prime can replace his Hot-Shot Lasgun for a Platoon Standard for (20 pts)

The squad can take a Taurox Prime or a Valkyrie Prime as a dedicated transport


Tempestus Scion Squad


Tempestus Scion: WS: 3, BS: 4, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 3, A: 1, Ld: 7, Sv: 4+ pts: 12 per model
Tempestor Minoris: WS: 3, BS: 4, S: 3, T: 3. W: 1, I: 3, A: 2, Ld: 8, Sv: 4+
Equipment: Carapace Armor, Hot-Shot Lasgun, Hot-Shot Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon (Tempestor Minoris only), Frag and Krak Grenade

Special Rule: Scion, Move Through Cover, Stealth, Deep Strike

Unit Composition: 5 to 10 (infantry)

Option:

A Tempestus Scion must be promoted to a Tempestor Minoris for (4 pts)

The Tempestor Minoris can exchange his Hot-Shot Lasgun for a Hot-Shot Lasgun with an Auxiliary Grenade Launcher for (5 pts)

The Tempestor Minoris can exchange his Hot-Shot Laspistol for a Bolt Pistol for free, or a Plasma Pistol for (10 pts)

The Tempestor Minoris can exchange his Close Combat Weapon for a Power Weapon for (10 pts), a Shock Sword for (5 pts), or a Powerfist for (15 pts)

The Tempestor Minoris can take an Aer Guidance System for (10 pts) or a Targeter for (10 pts)

The Tempestor Minoris can take a Meltacharge for (5 pts)

Up to two Tempestus Scions can exchange their Hot-shot lasguns for one of the following weapon: Plasma Gun (15 pts), Meltagun (10 pts), Grenade Launcher (5 pts), Hot-shot Volleygun (10 pts), or a flamer (5 pts)

One other Tempestus Scion can take a Clarion Vox System Relay for (5 pts)

The squad can take a Taurox Prime or a Valkyrie Prime as a dedicated transport

Dedicated Transport


Taurox Prime

Spoiler:

The Taurox Prime is an extremely fast, well armed and armored transport. It can cross through some of the harshest terrain without slowing down all the while carrying the firepower of a light battle tank. Its overcharged engines are both safe and reliable. Thus, the Taurox Prime can be used for extensive missions behind the enemy lines and its decent armor allows it to weather small arm fire with ease. Very few forces can boast to have such a versatile and efficient vehicle in their armory. The Scions who pilot them are experts who know their vehicle as well as a Tempestus Scion knows his rifle. They are almost fearless and will never abandon their brethren in a difficult situation. A Taurox Prime can be armed in a variety of ways to deal with infantry hordes or enemy tanks and aircraft depending on the situation.

Taurox Prime: BS: 4, Armor: F: 11, S: 11, R: 10, HP: 3 pts: 70
equipment: One Turret Mounted Taurox Light Battle Canon, One Hull Mounted Twin-Linked Hot-Shot Volleygun, Smoke Launcher

Special Rule: Tank, Fast, ATV, Transport

ATV: A Taurox Prime threads and engine are designed for all sorts of terrain. It's both amphibious and can reroll failed dangerous terrain tests.

Transport Capacity: 10 Models

Access Point: One on each side and one at the rear

Fire Point: two on each side

Option:

Can replace the Taurox Light Battle Canon for a Twin-Linked Taurox Gatling Canon for (5 pts) or for a Taurox Missile Launcher for (10 pts)

Can replace the Twin-Linked Hot-Shot Volleygun for Twin-Linked Autocannon for (10 pts)

Can take upgrades from the Armory of the Progenium

Valkyrie Prime

Spoiler:

The Valkyrie Prime is a heavily armed and armored aircraft designed for air to ground combat. Its powerful engines allow it to move at high speed and gives it great mobility to avoid enemy anti-air defense and hover over the battlefield. Its numerous weapons give it an impressive firepower on an extremely mobile basis. The Valkyrie Prime are different to the standard models by their more sophisticated weapon system and by the fact that their pilots are Scions themselves who were trained to a much higher level of excellence than the navy's pilots. Their capacity to deploy in the harshest conditions squads of Scions allow the Millitarum Tempestus to field one of the fastest military forces in the galaxy. In a pinch, the Valkyrie Prime can even engage other aircraft in dogfights.

Valkyrie Prime: BS: 4, Armor: F: 12, S: 12, R: 10, HP: 3 pts: 135
Equipment: Hull Mounted Twin-Linked Hot-Shot Multilaser, 2 Hellstrike Missile, extra armor

Special Rule: Flier, Hover, Transport, Grav Chute Insertion

Grav Chute Insertion: Valkyrie Prime are equipped with the necessary system to drop troops via Grav-Chute should they be flying at high altitude or high speed. Should the player want to disembark a unit in a Valkyrie who moved faster than Combat Speed or who isn't hovering, select a point over which the Valkyrie passed and place a counter there and deploy the unit using the deep strike rules. Scatter the unit normally.

Transport Capacity: 12 Models

Access Point: One at the rear

Fire Point: None

Option:

The Valkyrie Prime can exchange its Twin-Linked Hot-Shot Multilaser for a Twin-Linked Lascanon for (5 pts)

Can replace the two Hellstrike missiles for two Rocket Pods for (10 pts)

Can take two sponson mounted Heavy Bolters for (20 pts)

Can take upgrades in the Armory of the Progenium

Fast Attack


Aer Scions

Spoiler:

Aer Scions are the pinnacle of the Millitarum Tempestus forces when it comes to aerial assault. They are the men and women who have shown the most aptitudes in piloting a Grav-Chute in any circumstances and a talent for short range firefights. To assist them, they are equipped with an Aer Grav-Chute, from which they derive their name, that can serve as a efficient jet pack on the battlefield. This makes them extremely mobile, capable of vaulting over tall obstacle, escaping assaulting enemy units and attacking them from above. The only weakness of those Grav-Chute is their weight limit that only allow the lightest and most agile Scions to use them. They also needed a lighter and more compact weapon than their standard Hot-Shot Lasgun. Thus, they are all armed with a small Hot-Shot LasSMG that provides them with a surprising amount of firepower but only at very short range.

Aer Scion: WS: 3, BS: 4, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 4, A: 1, Ld: 7, Sv: 4+ pts: 18
Aer Tempestor: WS: 3, BS: 4, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 4, A: 2, Ld: 8, Sv: 4+
Equipment: Carapace Armor, Aer Grav Chute, Aer Guidance System, Hot-Shot LasSMG, Close Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades

Special Rule: Scion, Deep Strike, Move Through Cover, Stealth, Hit and Run

Unit Composition: 5 to 10 (Jet Pack Infantry)

Option:

A Aer Scion must be promoted to an Aer Tempestor for (4 pts)

The Aer Tempestor can exchange his Hot-Shot LasSMG for a Bolt Pistol for free or a pair of Plasma Pistol for (15 pts)

The Aer Tempestor can exchange his Close Combat Weapon for a Power Weapon for (10 pts), a Shock Sword for (5 pts) or a Powerfist for (15 pts)

The Aer Tempestor can take a Meltacharge for (5 pts)

Up to two Aer Scion can exchange their Hot-shot LasSMG for a pair of Plasma pistol for (15 pts)

epronovost wrote:
Yes, Ignis Scions have indeed retained their close combat weapon which makes them pretty good in melee, if not exceptionnal. Despite this quality, they still aren't as good as the Armis Scions but offer the option to retain some close combat capacity should the player have chosen not to take Armis Scions. I could give them a "doctrinal" option between more explosives and a stealth doctrine that gives them the camocloak. It does sound like a good idea.

Yes, Aer Grav-Chute are upposed to be JET PACKS and not JUMP PACKS. I was aware the difference.

I play testing the Armis Scions, I do think they are a bit underpriced. I will raise their point cost.

PS: Thanks for your work of correction!

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Maybe make the Ignis Scions being good at melee one of their doctrines?
Make them a specialist unit, rather than a master-of-everything


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, whats the logic behin djet packs?

epronovost wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Maybe make the Ignis Scions being good at melee one of their doctrines?
Make them a specialist unit, rather than a master-of-everything


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, whats the logic behin djet packs?

The logic behind the jet Pack insteat of Jump pack is that the Aer Scions are using modified Grav-Chutes. They have only a very mild propulsion system to help move around and mostly rely on simply jumping in a low gravity bubble to move around like jet packs. That's why they have trouble with weigth restrictions, carry lighter weapons and are recruited from smaller and thinner Scions. They just make long jumps that they use to get in and out of firing range. Even if they were to use their Aer Grav-Chute charge into an enemy squad, they wouldn't smash them appart like units with Jump Pack who use them in assault (they gain Hammer of Wrath Special Rule). What do you think is the argument in favor of Jump packs over jet packs?

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Why does the Victory Prime get 1 random hellstrike missile?
Also the Victory Prime seems most analogous to the Vulture, and as such shouldn't get the door mounts (which themselves are insanely good)

You say your HS-multilasers are similar to starcannons, aren't those the things known for being crazy OP and aren't even AP 2? I wouldn't call 30'' short ranged either. Especially on a fast vehicle or flyer.
Just did the math and a Victory prime with the door mounted HS multilasers will kill 6.67 T4 or worse models with a 5+ cover or invuln save per shooting attack.
If those were Tactical marines hiding in some woods you've just destroyed 93pts worth in a single shooting attack. Imagine if they were Terminators...

And for only 5pts more than a heavy bolter? They make an already bad weapon look like a bad joke.
Take that same Victory Prime as part of the Aerial Supremacy Squadron for Strafing Run and you kill 11.45 models! That's an entire squad of Marines or Terminators just... gone.
I know that probably doesn't look so bad in the face of a Grav Centurion unit, but you shouldn't be trying to make a top-cheese army. The people that use they kinds of fandexes aren't going to be using them in tournaments and you really don't want to give your opponent an excuse to cry foul.
and with 15 strength 6 shots they're not exactly bad against vehicles, especially flyers.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Also I feel like Venators should have camo netting as an upgrade.

Oh and I'm not sure if it's just me, but the heirlooms section is either blank or not working.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Heart of the Sun heirloom.
For 5pts more than a plasma pistol it doubles the firerate and adds one strength?

I would advice against comparing anything to Eldar. The codex known for being almost universally above the power curve.

Also I'm not sure if I've addressed this before, but most of your army still has stealth
Your Insidias Scions even have Shrouded. I know you want to represent the stealthy aspect the Scions can take on occasionally, but that isn't how other units work it. Space Marine scouts don't get stealth, they get infiltrate. And stacking stealth and a camocloak onto a model to get shrouded is just insane, that's like Tau's apparently-invisible stealth suits levels of hiding.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The average Scion started training before the average Scout. For the rest I am not sure enough numbers were given.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Plasma pistols are 15pts for astartes, they maybe be 10pts for guard but guard are only BS3.
It's also a bit more than double damage, instant deathing marines can be pretty significant.
The blood angels have a 25pt relic plasma pistol and it all it does is remove gets hot.

I still really don't think you should be having army-wide scout, you're storm troopers not stealth troopers. And I especially disagree with stacking it.

kirotheavenger wrote:Plasma pistols are 15pts for astartes, they maybe be 10pts for guard but guard are only BS3.
It's also a bit more than double damage, instant deathing marines can be pretty significant.
The blood angels have a 25pt relic plasma pistol and it all it does is remove gets hot.

I still really don't think you should be having army-wide scout, you're storm troopers not stealth troopers. And I especially disagree with stacking it.

epronovost wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Heart of the Sun heirloom.
For 5pts more than a plasma pistol it doubles the firerate and adds one strength?

I would advice against comparing anything to Eldar. The codex known for being almost universally above the power curve.

Also I'm not sure if I've addressed this before, but most of your army still has stealth
Your Insidias Scions even have Shrouded. I know you want to represent the stealthy aspect the Scions can take on occasionally, but that isn't how other units work it. Space Marine scouts don't get stealth, they get infiltrate. And stacking stealth and a camocloak onto a model to get shrouded is just insane, that's like Tau's apparently-invisible stealth suits levels of hiding.

Stealth suits have both Shrouded and Stealth for a basic 4+ cover save. That's almost invisible. Shrouded is very, very stealthy.

Space Marines Scouts don't have stealth because they are rookies and, as rule, the Adeptus Astartes doesn't consider reconnaissance and stealth as important. That's why this duty, which is given to specialists and veterans in all other armies in the 40K universe and in our own universe because its so god damn important, is given to the worst Space Marine imaginable. Only Space Wolves and the Raven Guard and their descendants seems to view stealth and scouting as important and, in the case of the Raven Guard, their scout do have stealth (and so do their Space Marines). It's the same thing for the Night Lords who also have stealth.

Ork Kommandos all have the Stealth rule in addition to Infiltrate and Move Through Cover including their Nob. They don't have anything close like a Camocloak. If orks can be this stealthy, why not humans who trained extansively in covert operation like ork kommando do?

Comparing regular Scout Space Marines to Scions would like comparing them to Imperial Guardsmen. Both are not as heavily trained as a full feldge Scion since one is still in training (perhapse not even adults in some country, much larger, heavier and smellier which makes them a lot less discrete) and the other is just a regular G.I Joe. Scions are not ment to be "occasionnaly stealthy" its the other way around. They are "occasionnaly" brazen. Thus, for all these reasons, the Stealth Rule will remain.

epronovost wrote:Scouts are as young as 18 years old, sometime 16 years old. The average Space Marines start is recruited at age 12 (the prime age for Geneseed Implantation which ends with the Black Carapace at age 18), passes a few years in tank being implanted organs and adapting to them, receives basic military instruction learn how to speak High Gothic, read and write in the case of those who come from feral, feudal world and lower hive. Considering that Space Marines love to recruit there, that represents most of them.

Scions start their training at age 6 and finish it at age 22. The youngest Scion has about 16 years of military training and instruction while the youngest Scout has 6. That's a huge difference in terms of quality of training.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Plasma pistols are 15pts for astartes, they maybe be 10pts for guard but guard are only BS3.
It's also a bit more than double damage, instant deathing marines can be pretty significant.
The blood angels have a 25pt relic plasma pistol and it all it does is remove gets hot.

I still really don't think you should be having army-wide scout, you're storm troopers not stealth troopers. And I especially disagree with stacking it.

I will change the price for 25 pts since Instant Death on T4 is indeed rvery good, but I would say that the Relic of the Blood Angel is pure crap that nobody in his right mind would use .10 pts for no Get's Hot is completly overcosted in my opinion.

The stacking of stealth to shrouded to stealth AND shrouded is a core mechanic of those Special Rules. For example, if you take a Tempestus Scion squad beneath the Umbra Mobile Shield Generator, they will have a 4+ cover save in plain sight. That's how the core rule book says those two special rules should interract. They are stackable.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Absolutely this. You're getting essentially two +1S plasma pistols for an absolute steal. 25 points is far more solid.

I'd also err on another five points for the relic sword - you're getting just under the strength of a power fist, at initiative AP2 (which is on average Space Marine tier), the fact it's two handed affects it little, because if it were a power fist, it wouldn't get another attack anyway (no other specialist weapons). I'm getting an at initiative power fist swapping a pip of strength for master crafted. If we assume that the master crafted cancels out the pip of strength lost, I think it's reasonable to say that at initiative AP2 is more than 5 points.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Your Shock Sword is still too powerful. It's definitely not 5 points worse than a Power Maul.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I'd actually lean towards making it S+1 instead.

 JNAProductions wrote:
...

So you noticed a weakness, and instead of accepting "Yeah, this is an elite army of GEQs, so they will have some bad matchups," you decided to buff them to make them have no weaknesses?

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't know what two-handed swords you're looking at but Blood Angel's have two-handed swords that just get mastercrafted.
We have a 20pt relic for a standard AP2 power sword. Which is btw considered one of our only 2 relics (the rest are total bollocks, such as a safety first plasma pistol for 25pts...)

I meant stacking stealth as in giving Insidious Scions stealth AND a camocloak to get shrouded, no other dedicated stealth unit in the game reaches that point, except maybe Eldar Rangers. But those probably have more time training and the oldest astartes, let alone a human.

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Absolutely this. You're getting essentially two +1S plasma pistols for an absolute steal. 25 points is far more solid.

I'd also err on another five points for the relic sword - you're getting just under the strength of a power fist, at initiative AP2 (which is on average Space Marine tier), the fact it's two handed affects it little, because if it were a power fist, it wouldn't get another attack anyway (no other specialist weapons). I'm getting an at initiative power fist swapping a pip of strength for master crafted. If we assume that the master crafted cancels out the pip of strength lost, I think it's reasonable to say that at initiative AP2 is more than 5 points.

I indeed changed the Heart of the Sun for 25 pts. It's indeed a better price.

For the Blade of Terra, I would say that 20 pts is a relatively fair price. At S5 you can't instant kill anybody (except my Gretchin HQ, but that doesn't count). It doesn count for a lot in my opinion. Striking at Initiative 4 isn't such a great advantage. Most HQ or good close combat unit strike simultaniously or faster. Those who don't usualy have a T5 or even more. The Initiative malus of the Power Fist isn't an as important malus on a Tempestor Prime or a Commissar Lord than on a Space Marine Captain for example. I would rather knock out the special rule Mastercraft than drop the price. The Blade of Terra is already superior to a "traditionnal" Two-Handed Power Sword which have a S+1, AP:2 stat line anyway.

PS: I changed the price.

epronovost wrote:
@Sgt_Smudge

Considering that I already removed Mastercrafted, I would say that S: +2, AP: 2 Two-Handed Sword for 20 pts is pretty reasonnable. S:+1, AP: 2 Two Handed Sword for 20 pts appears to me a bit weak, especially on a Tempestor Prime or Commissar Lord. But if you do think its too much, I will augment the price at 25 pts, but retain the S+2

But no matter what, Stealth remains.

epronovost wrote:

@Kirotheavenger

There is already a form of Special Weapon Squad in the Command Squad of Tempestus Scions. It's a five man squad with the option for up to four special weapons. They also have slightly better stats than regular Scions (one more WS and I).

Ignis Scions, were pretty much exactly like Sternguard, instead of having different special ammo though they have combi-weapons and a few extra grenades and special equipment. Now that they have shifted to Specialised squad with some point requirements at your request, they are now either Sternguard, Vanguard and Techmarine. I can't say I am that satisfied with them right now. They appear a bit too much like the Swiss Knife of the army.

BTW, the very first formation does a bit that by allowing Infiltration to replace Deep Strike. But no matter what, Stealth remains.

The last idea I flirted about universal Stealth on Scion would be to replace Universal Stealth for a Special Rule called Ambush that provides the same bonus should the unit not have moved during their movement phase.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

I think that Stealth should be removed from Scions as a base, and instead a Scion army given psuedo-Chapter Tactics, such as:

Aerial Doctrine - All Scion units gain Deep Strike, and scatter 1d6 when Deep Striking.
Stealth Doctrine - All Scion units gain Stealth.
Firebase Doctrine - All Scion units may reroll 1s To Hit with any hot-shot weapon.
etc etc

That way, instead of making Scions this shock/stealth hybrid, make the player decide what doctrine their scions are using.
Or, as I feel is appropriate, make Formations for it, and disallow bulkier units (vehicles) and certain infantry units (Aer Scions) and force other units to be taken (Insidias Scions). Or just add Stealth as another rule for the Tempestus Dagger formations.

Stealth army wide is not fitting without specialisation though, because it doesn't fit typical Scion combat doctrine.

epronovost wrote:
@kirotheavenger

Tau Snipers have BS: 5. They aren't more gifted for precision than humans according to both fluff and rules. Snipers are specialists. Sterguards are mighty space marines with a tacticaly fluid role they are super tactical squads not snipers. That's why they have mid-range weapons, special ammo, great close combat capacity, etc. The comparision isn't apt. Long Fanged are perhapse the only equivalent of long range specialist, but they uses canons, not snipers.

Scouts aren't specialist. They are Space Marine in training who serve a specialist role (they used to have WS: 3, BS: 3 for two edditions because of that). Kommando are specialist. They have move through cover and stealth.

Auxiliary grenade launcher can fire one grenade of each type you have to represent more limited ammunition in terms of grenade. I might change it infinitie ammunition, but that would require a serious price hike.

epronovost wrote:
@kirotheavenger

Tau Snipers have BS: 5. They aren't more gifted for precision than humans according to both fluff and rules.

Snipers are specialists. Sterguards are mighty space marines with a tacticaly fluid role they are super tactical squads not snipers. That's why they have mid-range weapons, special ammo, great close combat capacity, etc. The comparision isn't apt. Long Fanged are perhapse the only equivalent of long range specialist, but they uses canons, not snipers.

Scouts aren't specialist. They are Space Marine in training who serve a specialist role (they used to have WS: 3, BS: 3 for two edditions because of that). Kommando are specialist. They have move through cover and stealth.

epronovost wrote:
@Sgt_Smudge

Tau Snipers are spotters and shooter for drones they remote control indeed, but they also have a side arm they can shoot at BS 5. They do have markerlight, but they have BS 5 without using them and BS 6 when they do (or reduce the cover). What makes you say that Insidias Scions don't have all sorts of scopes and targetting devices?

There is no such thing as a Sternguard, Vanguard and Terminator specialist. There is only veterans who select in the Chapter armory the weapons that are going to be the most useful. Because of the specificity of the Space Marine training, there is no such thing as specialisation. A Veteran might be a Sterguard in a battle and a Vanguard in the other should the tactic favor one style or the other.

@kirotheavenger

My standard bloke is a man or woman with a training and a quality that compares to a fully trained Space Marine (AKA a young Devastator, but who lacks all the genetic enhancement that makes the Space Marine superior) in the same domain than that of the ork kommando. If I was to make an fandex on Boss Snikrot, everybody, even the lowly bloke would have Stealth because they are all a form of Kommando. It's the same thing. My army is an expansion where the lowly bloke is the elite scout and stealth unit of another Codex: Astra Millitarum.

epronovost wrote:@Sgt_Smudge

Tau Snipers are spotters and shooter for drones they remote control indeed, but they also have a side arm they can shoot at BS 5. They do have markerlight, but they have BS 5 without using them and BS 6 when they do (or reduce the cover).

What makes you say that Insidias Scions don't have all sorts of scopes and targetting devices?

There is no such thing as a Sternguard, Vanguard and Terminator specialist.

There is only veterans who select in the Chapter armory the weapons that are going to be the most useful. Because of the specificity of the Space Marine training, there is no such thing as specialisation. A Veteran might be a Sterguard in a battle and a Vanguard in the other should the tactic favor one style or the other.

@kirotheavenger

My standard bloke is a man or woman with a training and a quality that compares to a fully trained Space Marine (AKA a young Devastator, but who lacks all the genetic enhancement that makes the Space Marine superior) in the same domain than that of the ork kommando.

If I was to make an fandex on Boss Snikrot, everybody, even the lowly bloke would have Stealth because they are all a form of Kommando. It's the same thing. My army is an expansion where the lowly bloke is the elite scout and stealth unit of another Codex: Astra Millitarum.

epronovost wrote:BTW, the Sergent are all with the same stats then the unit they follow with one more Ld and A which is standard in all of 40K with a few exception.

The Tempestor Secundus is a junior officer like the Platoon leader who does have +1 WS, BS, A and Ld in the Imperial guard Codex. Mine Gets +1 BS, A, W and Ld. They are, due to their role, more similar to Chaplain or Librarian in a sense they are second in command as the name Secundus was supposed to imply. So no, my sergeant don't have BS 5 because they are sergent, they have BS 5 because they are officers and officers do have perks that sergent don't.

My snipers aren't a heavy weapon team because their weapons are weaker than the weakest heavy weapon (the Heavy Bolter in their case).

Tau Snipers have BS 5 without the massive boost of markerlight technology. They are even better with it. Their big screen is because the remote control 3 drones at the same time. They thus need three screens and control panels to pilot them. This take a lot of space. If tau can be BS 5 on sniper, why not similar specialist from other armies?

kirotheavenger wrote:Your whole army enjoys +1 leadership because they're veterans.
An imperial guard veteran is BS4, but BS4 is the standard until you get to really fething good shots, because that's how 40k works.
A sergeant is an officer and an officer is a sergeant. Just because a quirk of the imperial guard is orders doesn't mean their sergeants are any more elite than others.

Your Scions are far too elite. They're supposed to be humans, you are pushing them to boundaries surpassing the elite superhumans!

Howscat wrote:
Don't Make there be different types of scion squads. They dont need a "Elite" choice from the codex. Let them take doctrines the same way IG veterans can. Make a stealthy infiltration doctrine upgrade, a close combat upgrade doctrine upgrade, a specialized deep strike upgrade. The squad would purchase the upgrade and gain a few special rules and equipment choices.

Utilize the Clarion Vox Network as a Orders bubble. Think of it as a 18 in. combat doctrines bubble like the space smurfs. The tempestor prime chooses a doctrine and all units within that bubble can use it if thy pass a Ld check. You can still use the Vox-castor for re-rolls. Let the tempestor issue orders to his own squad that give them small boosts (sniper, ignores cover, fleet....)

epronovost wrote:
He has it on the exact same circomstances with the same sort of efficiency (which is rather average). Both of them are sniper specialists. The only different is that one is behind friendly lines and uses several drones piloted simultaniously thanks to a drone controler, which according to its description doesn't have any sort of advanced targetting device. If it has it in its description outside of your imagination, please show it to me else we might very well say that this tau who are no superior to humans in terms of capacity is just that good of a shot. The drone controller is described as screen and controler for a handful of drones with an integrated Markerlight System that can boost its BS further. The only difference between the two of them is that Insidias Scions line their shot without having to proxy through a drone and operate behind enemy line instead of behind friendly lines. BTW, snipers are heavy weapons by pure definition of the rule. They are all heavy 1. so is this one.

S6 AP: 3 on BS5 platfrom will kill surely one man per turn per man UNLESS they have cover saves, invulnerable saves, feel no pain, reanimation protocol, you know stuff that everybody can get or easily ignore thanks to numbers (who cares about three dead orks per turn). At 35 pts pieces, just shoot them with an ignore cover weapon like, let say a Whirlwind, or worse a Wyverne that cost less than the full squad and outrange them by 18' and your problem has just disapeared in a big ass explosion.

After play testing them, no, they are rather well priced and not all that dangerous, but they are pretty good at killing high value elite units that aren't TEQ or in dense cover. They are no better, point for point, than Tau Sniper Drones units.

An Imperial Guard Junior Officer Stats is WS: 4, BS: 4, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 3, A: 2, Ld: 8, Sv: 5+. The base stats of a guardsmen is WS: 3 BS: 3, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 3, A: 1, Ld: 7, Sv: 5+, a sergent guardsmen is WS: 3 BS: 3, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 3, A: 2, Ld: 8, Sv: 5+. A Tempestor Secundus is WS: 4, BS: 5, S: 3, T: 3, W: 2, I: 4, A: 2, Ld: 8, SV; 4+. Compared to the base stats of a Tempestus Scion the boost is almost identical as the boost between Junior Officers and regular guardsmen which is what they are supposed to be Junior Officers. Yes, junior officers always had superior stats to sergent and regular troopers because being an officer and not just as squad leader means higher stats in 40K.

Scions are human and none of them is surpassing the superhuman Space Marines at anything but stealth (and even then, Raven Guard equals them in that domain and all others).

BS 5 isn't above and behond what Space Marines can have.

Why should i care more about what Space Marines have with Scouts and Sternguard than what Tau and Orks have with units that are actually closer in design and battlefield roles? Space Marines aren't really closer to humans than orks or taus except perhapse in general appearence.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Scions can serve as stealth/infiltrators, they're special forces, their role is really varied

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


My standard bloke is a man or woman with a training and a quality that compares to a fully trained Space Marine (AKA a young Devastator, but who lacks all the genetic enhancement that makes the Space Marine superior) in the same domain than that of the ork kommando.

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


My standard bloke is a man or woman with a training and a quality that compares to a fully trained Space Marine (AKA a young Devastator, but who lacks all the genetic enhancement that makes the Space Marine superior) in the same domain than that of the ork kommando.

So they wouldn't have stealth then. In fact, if they were as well trained as a Devastator, they would have WS4 and BS4. S, T, I, W, A, Ld would not be affected for this. Devastators have no Stealth. Why should yours?

 JNAProductions wrote:
So you just have them better rifles than Space Marines get because... why?

 Bobthehero wrote:
Stormtrooper is just a name, like JTF2 or Delta Force

Lexicanum wrote:Tempestus Scions, also known as Storm Troopers in Low Gothic, are the elite shock troops of the Imperial Guard and Militarum Tempestus.

And he's not retconning Scion, he litteraly said he's using the newest codex as an inspiration. They are one of the Imperium Black Ops unit, but they're also used as schock troops.

And lastly, its nice to see not all the good is reserved to Space Marines, using their existence as an argument to prevent other Imperial faction from having nice things is a real slap to the face.

 Bobthehero wrote:
They could also get the Hellshot mentionned in one of the older book, its essentially a sniper using autocannon round.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Also, I'm still not sure exactly what role Armis Scions perform, at least from a fluff perspective.
They're tanky melee troops, meant to slowly advance under fire protecting those behind.
That just doesn't fit any of the previously mentioned Scion roles (Deep striking, infiltrating and scouting).

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
They could also get the Hellshot mentionned in one of the older book, its essentially a sniper using autocannon round.

Strength 7 AP4 Heavy 1?
Yeah I suppose.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Also, I'm still not sure exactly what role Armis Scions perform, at least from a fluff perspective.
They're tanky melee troops, meant to slowly advance under fire protecting those behind.
That just doesn't fit any of the previously mentioned Scion roles (Deep striking, infiltrating and scouting).

I could see a use for the Arnis, but it would be a singular use. As Shock Troops, having a bulwark unit, so to speak, would be effective, especially at setting up breachheads and whatnot. However, they could easily have less of a melee focus, if necessary, or even a double profile - a melee one, and an arbalest sort of unit, using shieldwalls to draw enemy fire, and providing cover for the rest of the Scions?

They could have a use, less so for infiltration or scouting, but certainly as a shock unit, they work.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
They could also get the Hellshot mentionned in one of the older book, its essentially a sniper using autocannon round.

Strength 7 AP4 Heavy 1?
Yeah I suppose.

Something like that, with a reroll to penetrate because its described as anti-materiel rifle. And the sniper rules.

The longlas-hotshot pack vs hotshot laguns is a bit of mess to be honest, it was simpler when hotshots were named hellguns (tho they lacked AP3)

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Lexicanum wrote:Tempestus Scions, also known as Storm Troopers in Low Gothic, are the elite shock troops of the Imperial Guard and Militarum Tempestus.[1] They are trained to carry out special operations such as deep strike assaults, reconnaissance and infiltration beyond enemy lines.

As we can see, emphasis on being SHOCK troops. We see they are speciliased in Deep Striking (which can be represented by the Deep Strike rule), reconnaissance (represented by the Scout USR) and infiltration (represented by the Infiltrate USR).
Nothing highlights a skill in stealth. Now, let's compare that to Scouts. their role is to range ahead of the main Space Marine force, preparing the way for the main advance by infiltrating enemy lines, sabotaging and gathering intelligence..

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Hot-shot snipers shouldn't have 48'' range, regular snipers have that.
Give it 36'' range to follow the 25% reduction you see on the HS-lasgun.
I agree, leave the anti-tank shell out of the Insidious.

epronovost wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Hot-shot snipers shouldn't have 48'' range, regular snipers have that.
Give it 36'' range to follow the 25% reduction you see on the HS-lasgun.
I agree, leave the anti-tank shell out of the Insidious.

It would be logical indeed for them to have a reduced range like all other Hot-Shot weapons, but the damage output of this unit would become too low for what they need to be able to do and too vulnerable for to enemy fire. Unless I make their sniper rapid fire instead of heavy. In that case reduced range to 36' could work. So far, I have played Insidias twice with their older profile and they were doing a lot of damage, but were relatively easy to deny and kill even with shrouded. The change is meant to make them more survivable at the cost of damage output (and its a severe damage reduction, they should kill twice less enemy units).

 kirotheavenger wrote:

You can always lower the points.
But I don't think you should ignore the way things are because it doesn't suit.
You want to have your cake and eat it too, but that isn't how the world works.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Don't Scions have a Sniper Order?

Seems to me the idea was their flexibility came from their "tactics", rather than a wide range of FOC choices.

epronovost wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Don't Scions have a Sniper Order?

Seems to me the idea was their flexibility came from their "tactics", rather than a wide range of FOC choices.

They still do in this version. I think I will redesign the Insidias Scions into a "lighter and Sneakier" version of a Devastator squad because of this. The previous Hot-Shot Heavy Rifle really gave them some flexibility that the Sniper can't afford them.

They are now set-back at BS: 4, recovered their Their Hot-Shot Heavy Rifle which are now range: 30, S: 6, AP: 3, Heavy 2, but have the same price than before.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Why don't you do like the D-99 decimater squad, turn the sergeant into a spotter.
Remove his hot-shot longlas and give him magnoculars.
''Immediately before the unit makes a shooting attack, the spotter may designate any enemy unit within 60'' for his squad, if the squad elects to fire at this unit (although they do not have to do so) their hot-shot longlas's gain infinite range and the acute senses special rule''
Or similar.
Or perhaps, more similar to D-99, have squads of 1 spotter and 1-4 snipers.
IMO this would make them feel much more like that lone-wolf unit giving precise fire support.
They offer support in a different way to heavy/special weapons. Special/heavy weapons may away at the body, but these snipers go straight for the throat. You're underestimating how effective that (pretty good with a hot-shot) chance at sniping out enemy special or heavy weapons, or even sergeants.

epronovost wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Why don't you do like the D-99 decimater squad, turn the sergeant into a spotter.
Remove his hot-shot longlas and give him magnoculars.
''Immediately before the unit makes a shooting attack, the spotter may designate any enemy unit within 60'' for his squad, if the squad elects to fire at this unit (although they do not have to do so) their hot-shot longlas's gain infinite range and the acute senses special rule''
Or similar.
Or perhaps, more similar to D-99, have squads of 1 spotter and 1-4 snipers.
IMO this would make them feel much more like that lone-wolf unit giving precise fire support.
They offer support in a different way to heavy/special weapons. Special/heavy weapons may away at the body, but these snipers go straight for the throat. You're underestimating how effective that (pretty good with a hot-shot) chance at sniping out enemy special or heavy weapons, or even sergeants.

It could also work, but would require another rule than Acute Sense since it now only helps if you are outflanking. Maybe something like +1 in BS. Lets put it to the test.

epronovost wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Why don't you do like the D-99 decimater squad, turn the sergeant into a spotter.
Remove his hot-shot longlas and give him magnoculars.
''Immediately before the unit makes a shooting attack, the spotter may designate any enemy unit within 60'' for his squad, if the squad elects to fire at this unit (although they do not have to do so) their hot-shot longlas's gain infinite range and the acute senses special rule''
Or similar.
Or perhaps, more similar to D-99, have squads of 1 spotter and 1-4 snipers.
IMO this would make them feel much more like that lone-wolf unit giving precise fire support.
They offer support in a different way to heavy/special weapons. Special/heavy weapons may away at the body, but these snipers go straight for the throat. You're underestimating how effective that (pretty good with a hot-shot) chance at sniping out enemy special or heavy weapons, or even sergeants.

It could also work, but would require another rule than Acute Sense since it now only helps if you are outflanking. Maybe something like +1 in BS. Lets put it to the test.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Infinite Range, Night Vision, and -1 to Cover Saves, perhaps?

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Infinite Range, Night Vision, and -1 to Cover Saves, perhaps?

I don't think anything should get infinite range, 60'' is already long enough that you're not measuring in anything short of apoc scale games.
-1 cover saves could work, but that'd be costly.
Perhaps also, to further emphasise that these guys are super stealthy, you could downgrade them to flak armour and justify them getting stealth. But not shrouded. Because I still wish you'd remove the army wide stealth, even on covert ops they perform similar roles to Scouts (infiltrate and scout rules) which should be either a formation or a doctrine benefit.

Oh and also, I suggest you reword camocloaks to simply give +1 cover save. This both brings in line with other armies cloaks, removes confusion from stacking them with stealth, and removes the need for combining special rules and wargear benefits on a profile.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Squad-wide Signum, with increased range?

For only 15 points?

That seems... Iffy. Quite iffy.

epronovost wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Squad-wide Signum, with increased range?

For only 15 points?

That seems... Iffy. Quite iffy.

It's on much lighter weapons than those of a Devastator squad though. Considering the base prce of the squad I think its relatively fair. We could augment the price of the upgrade, but reduce the base cost too.

 JNAProductions wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Squad-wide Signum, with increased range?

For only 15 points?

That seems... Iffy. Quite iffy.

It's on much lighter weapons than those of a Devastator squad though. Considering the base prce of the squad I think its relatively fair. We could augment the price of the upgrade, but reduce the base cost too.

Much lighter? It's S6 AP3. That wounds on 2s and ignores armor against Marines-it's effectively a lascannon against ordinary marines (with the exception of Iron Hands, who will still get FNP). Not to mention it gets Rending, so it's even capable of hurting 2+ armor and any vehicle.

I'd agree that it's not quite a lascannon, but MUCH lighter? No.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Does the Insidious sergeant still have a hotshot longlas? He shouldn't.
He's also BS5, it'd be flogging a dead horse to readdress this properly, but can I at least poke it?

epronovost wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Does the Insidious sergeant still have a hotshot longlas? He shouldn't.
He's also BS5, it'd be flogging a dead horse to readdress this properly, but can I at least poke it?

He doesn't have a Hot-Shot Longlas, but he does have a Hot-shot Laspistol.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Does the Insidious sergeant still have a hotshot longlas? He shouldn't.
He's also BS5, it'd be flogging a dead horse to readdress this properly, but can I at least poke it?

He doesn't have a Hot-Shot Longlas, but he does have a Hot-shot Laspistol.

Then you should reflect that in the profile. Putting 'hot-shot longlas (except tempestor)' or something.
Or 'one Insidious Scion must be upgraded to an Insidious Tempestor, exchanging his hot-shot longlas for a set of precision magnoculars in the process'.

 JNAProductions wrote:
What if they're shooting Devastators, who are often worth 49 points per model?

Or Sternguard/Deathwatch, who are 22 base, and can take a slew of upgrades?

Or a Librarian in power armour?

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
What if they're shooting Devastators, who are often worth 49 points per model?

Or Sternguard/Deathwatch, who are 22 base, and can take a slew of upgrades?

Or a Librarian in power armour?

Or constripts, 3pts a model.
But at BS5, 60'' range sniper AP3 these things are amazing at hunting most things, I'm awful at inventing points cost without direct comparisons but ~20-30pts is probably about right.
They do however feel a lot more like snipers now, rather than the heavy weapons teams they were before.