So GW announces 8th with the release of Primaris marines and Death Guard.
People then start talking about how it's, "yet another space marine release with no love for chaos." Is everyone forgetting about the new Death Guard faction of Chaos who are also being released? I'm confused as to why people think it's all marines and no Chaos.
Yes, loyalists get new figures. So do we as Chaos. Loyalists are the most popular faction, of course a new edition is going to have a release with some new figures of them in it. And Chaos is also a really popular faction. Well, check out thos awesome minis we get on release.
Sorry to sound like I'm ranting, it's just really weird seeing so many people say this. I know Eldar and Drukhari and Nids and Orks and everyone else don't get new figures in the new set, saying marines are getting another update while our armies die with finecast. I totally get that side of things. Chaos was also in a bit of a rut, with some of the oldest minis in the hobby (obviously excluding poor factions like the Battle Sisters). So one old faction is having some updates! (Along with Thousand Sons).
Chaos Marines got pretty shafted through most of 6th and 7th until Traitor Legions was released. Chaos player complained that their 'dex was weak and old and they were justified in this.
However after the Thousand Son's, Traitor Legions, and Death Guard releases of the past 6 months, it's really just reflexive bitching at this point. It's the same whining that already asserts that "Chaos sux in 8th!!!" despite almost no games being played and the rules not yet fully released.
And don't hand me crap like, "Oh the rules have all been leaked!" cause no they haven't (played lots of Stronghold Assault and Cities of Death have you?) and even if they were no one's played anything like enough games to truly judge any faction's relative strength.
Just anger that we got something we'd been asking for over a decade now (legion rules please), then they got taken away a few months after they were added. As well as the marks that had been our only compensation for loss of legion rules.
It has left people very salty. Thousand sons in particular, due to the way this edition kinda screwed them up.
Because Chaos is more than Death Guard, or even Thousand Sons. Yes, we got some new DG stuff, and late last year we got some new TS stuff, but If you're playing anything other than that, you have nothing new.
Our basic troop kit is one of the oldest out there. If you run Emperor's Children and Noise Marines, you have to buy the basic CSM box, then purchase the Noise Marine upgrade kit from GW. Both of them if you want ONE special back pack and head. With the exception of Ahriman (who is still based on his old 3rd ed metal, just in plastic and better detailed) and Kharn, all our named HQ's are 2nd/3rd ed metals that were moved to Fine Cast. Abbadon is actually SHORTER than an Imperial Terminator model. Ya know, the absolute chosen of the Chaos Gods. Shorter than your average tactical Terminator. Obliterators/Mutilators are, without a doubt the most horrendous models in all of 40k. Berzerkers look like they just tripped over a rock. Our range is really all over the place as far as models go.
Meanwhile, the entire SM line has been kept up to date, even all the ones with books separate from the main SM codex. BA have Sanquinary Guard/Death Company. DA have their veterans, DW Knights, RW Black Knights, custom LS's, and fliers. SW have new Wulfen, the Santa Sleigh, Bjorn, TW Cav. Hell, even Deathwatch have brand new kits.
We know we're getting DG, but not every CSM player plays DG. I've played CSM since the 3.5 dex, and have never done anything w/ DG, other than a couple of PM squads in 5th edition where all our Cult units were Troops. I play Night Lords and Thousand Sons. Word Bearers literally have NOTHING. They didn't even get anything remotely resembling a unique unit until 6th ed w/ the Dark Apostle. Night Lords have a single upgrade kit (that looks horrible, I might add). Iron Warriors, same thing.
So we technically have as many 'sub-factions' as Imperial SM, yet absolutely none of the same kind of support. And, here we are again, with yet anotherSM faction coming to the forefront that is getting all new models, vehicles, HQ's, etc., that (if most peoples fears/thoughts are true) are simply going to be expanded and will eventually replace the current marines. So yet another barrier to us getting a fully updated model range.
So yeah, Death Guard is nice, but it would be nice to have basic updated troops, and support for our various other subfactions, too.
Because chaos space marine players use what space marines get as a benchmark of what they should get. Which is silly, it's like getting mad that there's more racks of Yankee's gear than there is of the local highschool lacrosse team. There's a reason for that and if you don't see it it's because you don't want to.
They should be comparing themselves to more appropriate factions like Inquisition or SoB or Squats or Exodites. Then they'd feel better.
Vryce wrote: Because Chaos is more than Death Guard, or even Thousand Sons. Yes, we got some new DG stuff, and late last year we got some new TS stuff, but If you're playing anything other than that, you have nothing new.
Our basic troop kit is one of the oldest out there. If you run Emperor's Children and Noise Marines, you have to buy the basic CSM box, then purchase the Noise Marine upgrade kit from GW. Both of them if you want ONE special back pack and head. With the exception of Ahriman (who is still based on his old 3rd ed metal, just in plastic and better detailed) and Kharn, all our named HQ's are 2nd/3rd ed metals that were moved to Fine Cast. Abbadon is actually SHORTER than an Imperial Terminator model. Ya know, the absolute chosen of the Chaos Gods. Shorter than your average tactical Terminator. Obliterators/Mutilators are, without a doubt the most horrendous models in all of 40k. Berzerkers look like they just tripped over a rock. Our range is really all over the place as far as models go.
Meanwhile, the entire SM line has been kept up to date, even all the ones with books separate from the main SM codex. BA have Sanquinary Guard/Death Company. DA have their veterans, DW Knights, RW Black Knights, custom LS's, and fliers. SW have new Wulfen, the Santa Sleigh, Bjorn, TW Cav. Hell, even Deathwatch have brand new kits.
We know we're getting DG, but not every CSM player plays DG. I've played CSM since the 3.5 dex, and have never done anything w/ DG, other than a couple of PM squads in 5th edition where all our Cult units were Troops. I play Night Lords and Thousand Sons. Word Bearers literally have NOTHING. They didn't even get anything remotely resembling a unique unit until 6th ed w/ the Dark Apostle. Night Lords have a single upgrade kit (that looks horrible, I might add). Iron Warriors, same thing.
So we technically have as many 'sub-factions' as Imperial SM, yet absolutely none of the same kind of support. And, here we are again, with yet anotherSM faction coming to the forefront that is getting all new models, vehicles, HQ's, etc., that (if most peoples fears/thoughts are true) are simply going to be expanded and will eventually replace the current marines. So yet another barrier to us getting a fully updated model range.
So yeah, Death Guard is nice, but it would be nice to have basic updated troops, and support for our various other subfactions, too.
You have much more than every Ork Clan, Eldar Craft-world, Tau Sept, etc... I don't want to deny how GW has neglected Chaos all this years. But Chaos Space Marines have been alongside Space Marines the most supported faction this past 1,5 years. Not all players are Thousand Sons or Death Guard yeah, but as you count all Space Marines Subfactions as Space Marines Releases, that should count too.
BrianDavion wrote: we're getting a plastic typhus with the DG update, we can assume plastic noise marines will come soonish, relax, it's VERY clear GW has a plan.
I like having you around Brian, you post quite often what I want to
Because csm players don't pay attention to what is happening with other armies. Which means they don't realize that for most armies the subfaction you play is determined entirely by the color scheme you use. Nor did they notice that every army in the game lost any subfaction rules they might have had.
Seriously, marine chapters mean as little as Chaos marks do now. With all supplements gone any cool rules from them are gone and that affects Tau, SM, Eldar, CSM and Orks. Tau didn't even keep the farsight enclaves list while csm kept the Thousand Sons list putting them ahead of Tau in the "special rules for subfactions" department.
On a side note, there was a lot of complaining about the traitor legions book not being good enough when it released. There is a very vocal group within the csm player base that complains about everything. Generally, they should just be ignored.
orkychaos wrote: Because csm players don't pay attention to what is happening with other armies. Which means they don't realize that for most armies the subfaction you play is determined entirely by the color scheme you use. Nor did they notice that every army in the game lost any subfaction rules they might have had.
Seriously, marine chapters mean as little as Chaos marks do now. With all supplements gone any cool rules from them are gone and that affects Tau, SM, Eldar, CSM and Orks. Tau didn't even keep the farsight enclaves list while csm kept the Thousand Sons list putting them ahead of Tau in the "special rules for subfactions" department.
On a side note, there was a lot of complaining about the traitor legions book not being good enough when it released. There is a very vocal group within the csm player base that complains about everything. Generally, they should just be ignored.
To be fair it didn't even come close to putting CSM on par with say tau (or at least the more abusive varieties of tau). It just finally patched the major issues to make us solidly mid range, neither cheese nor borderline non functional. Poor Tyranids and Orks never got even that much admittedly (and a few are worried still haven't, but that's probably a bit premature).
That or there are new leaks regarding the remaining units and/or morty himself, or possibly the death guard codex as a whole.
He also isn't entirely wrong, the new IC are pretty good, but the new units honestly look less useful to me than the blight launcher plague marines can take. Seriously the blight drone makes spawn look insanely good by comparison (and that is a sad metric to fail by).
Tiberius501 wrote:So GW announces 8th with the release of Primaris marines and Death Guard.
People then start talking about how it's, "yet another space marine release with no love for chaos." Is everyone forgetting about the new Death Guard faction of Chaos who are also being released? I'm confused as to why people think it's all marines and no Chaos.
Yes, loyalists get new figures. So do we as Chaos. Loyalists are the most popular faction, of course a new edition is going to have a release with some new figures of them in it. And Chaos is also a really popular faction. Well, check out thos awesome minis we get on release.
Sorry to sound like I'm ranting, it's just really weird seeing so many people say this. I know Eldar and Drukhari and Nids and Orks and everyone else don't get new figures in the new set, saying marines are getting another update while our armies die with finecast. I totally get that side of things. Chaos was also in a bit of a rut, with some of the oldest minis in the hobby (obviously excluding poor factions like the Battle Sisters). So one old faction is having some updates! (Along with Thousand Sons).
Go to the Zerker Threads and then make this statement.
bhollenb wrote:Chaos Marines got pretty shafted through most of 6th and 7th until Traitor Legions was released. Chaos player complained that their 'dex was weak and old and they were justified in this.
However after the Thousand Son's, Traitor Legions, and Death Guard releases of the past 6 months, it's really just reflexive bitching at this point. It's the same whining that already asserts that "Chaos sux in 8th!!!" despite almost no games being played and the rules not yet fully released.
And don't hand me crap like, "Oh the rules have all been leaked!" cause no they haven't (played lots of Stronghold Assault and Cities of Death have you?) and even if they were no one's played anything like enough games to truly judge any faction's relative strength.
Yes they must be just complaining because their complainers. Not like my Thousand Sons now have no reason to bring more then 1 Sorcerer, and DG has access to more Psychic Powers then TS do.
ERJAK wrote:Because chaos space marine players use what space marines get as a benchmark of what they should get. Which is silly, it's like getting mad that there's more racks of Yankee's gear than there is of the local highschool lacrosse team. There's a reason for that and if you don't see it it's because you don't want to.
They should be comparing themselves to more appropriate factions like Inquisition or SoB or Squats or Exodites. Then they'd feel better.
Yes because their entire setup is almost the same except CSM are MORE CC Orientated so which faction do you think would have drop pods? The SM that could easily develop a Transport that dropped
orkychaos wrote:Because csm players don't pay attention to what is happening with other armies. Which means they don't realize that for most armies the subfaction you play is determined entirely by the color scheme you use. Nor did they notice that every army in the game lost any subfaction rules they might have had.
Seriously, marine chapters mean as little as Chaos marks do now. With all supplements gone any cool rules from them are gone and that affects Tau, SM, Eldar, CSM and Orks. Tau didn't even keep the farsight enclaves list while csm kept the Thousand Sons list putting them ahead of Tau in the "special rules for subfactions" department.
On a side note, there was a lot of complaining about the traitor legions book not being good enough when it released. There is a very vocal group within the csm player base that complains about everything. Generally, they should just be ignored.
Actually some of us do. Like the fact that Blood Angels are getting unique equipment for their Chapter. Which I like and hope they do this for every faction. It probably wont happen but it would be pretty awesome if it did. To your side note the reason why people complained about Traitor Legions is because they wanted a rebooted Codex a fixed codex yes the Traitor Legions stuff was cool, but the problem was to play CSM you need 0 CSM and 478,529,034,875,629,348 Cultists. Imagine if you said I want to play Space Marines and peoples response was "Well your going to need a lot of Guardsman then" does that sound even mildly reasonable to you?
Now to the everyone is complaining, Not everyone is complaining, some people are complaining and they have every right to. DG currently have more Psychic powers then TS which makes no sense. Have you seen the list of units I'm "allowed" to use in a Thousand Sons army? Most of the units on the list have nothing to do with Thousand Sons and the ones that do are not worth bringing. My Army o' Sorcerers has no reason to bring more then 1 MAYBE 2 Sorcerers, my units are crap in CC but then there supposed to be cause Thousand Sons, but there also crap at shooting, not because they don't hit or don't have good weapons but they simply don't have the model count 20-40 PPM on average doesn't get you a lot of models. The one thing my army did well was mind bullets and now they cant even do that well. Okay fine well at least I can boost my shooting because prescience right? Nope, 1 cast and you have a little better then 50% chance of getting it off and if it doesn't go off too bad. So what the hell are my options, bring 20 SOT in 1 squad and Ahriman, and bring the remaining 850 points in the 1850 army as Tzzangors/Cultists I was better off before Warzone Fenris II then I am now.
8e Death Guard is mediocre at best. The new models look great tho.
If you've got the rules leaks you gotta give them to us. I wasn't expecting those to come out until like a month from now.
Who said I have anything?!
Who said that anyone can easily go to /tg/ and find things on the subject?!
Because you're Implying you got all the new Death Guard rules, like the new Mortarion and Terminators and stuff on hand and you're hiding it from us.
Also, from what I saw during the demo game, the new DG rules are pretty cool. Still T5, 5+ feel-no-pain (Disgustingly Resiliant), re-roll wound rolls of 1 in combat. Poxwalkers replenish models when they kill dudes, which will be even easier with Typhus sitting nearby. They haven't got any big vehicle reveals and such yet, but GW have said more DG is on the way.
Chaos is pretty good in 8th, Khorne Berserkers attacking twice is filthy, and KSons can spam a bunch of mortal wounds sorta well.
Demon princes and blenders and most things for chaos are pretty good, no reason to complain, so far two gods have their own faction (KSons and DG) and Khorne releases are coming up soon enough I hear, even slannesh will be updated (all rumors mind you).
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Vryce wrote: Because Chaos is more than Death Guard, or even Thousand Sons. Yes, we got some new DG stuff, and late last year we got some new TS stuff, but If you're playing anything other than that, you have nothing new.
Our basic troop kit is one of the oldest out there. If you run Emperor's Children and Noise Marines, you have to buy the basic CSM box, then purchase the Noise Marine upgrade kit from GW. Both of them if you want ONE special back pack and head. With the exception of Ahriman (who is still based on his old 3rd ed metal, just in plastic and better detailed) and Kharn, all our named HQ's are 2nd/3rd ed metals that were moved to Fine Cast. Abbadon is actually SHORTER than an Imperial Terminator model. Ya know, the absolute chosen of the Chaos Gods. Shorter than your average tactical Terminator. Obliterators/Mutilators are, without a doubt the most horrendous models in all of 40k. Berzerkers look like they just tripped over a rock. Our range is really all over the place as far as models go.
Meanwhile, the entire SM line has been kept up to date, even all the ones with books separate from the main SM codex. BA have Sanquinary Guard/Death Company. DA have their veterans, DW Knights, RW Black Knights, custom LS's, and fliers. SW have new Wulfen, the Santa Sleigh, Bjorn, TW Cav. Hell, even Deathwatch have brand new kits.
We know we're getting DG, but not every CSM player plays DG. I've played CSM since the 3.5 dex, and have never done anything w/ DG, other than a couple of PM squads in 5th edition where all our Cult units were Troops. I play Night Lords and Thousand Sons. Word Bearers literally have NOTHING. They didn't even get anything remotely resembling a unique unit until 6th ed w/ the Dark Apostle. Night Lords have a single upgrade kit (that looks horrible, I might add). Iron Warriors, same thing.
So we technically have as many 'sub-factions' as Imperial SM, yet absolutely none of the same kind of support. And, here we are again, with yet anotherSM faction coming to the forefront that is getting all new models, vehicles, HQ's, etc., that (if most peoples fears/thoughts are true) are simply going to be expanded and will eventually replace the current marines. So yet another barrier to us getting a fully updated model range.
So yeah, Death Guard is nice, but it would be nice to have basic updated troops, and support for our various other subfactions, too.
The thing is that DG and KSons are basically their own armies. KSons got like 5 incredible kits (I just built some exalted sorcerers and 20 rubric marines, gorgeous models), and the DG are getting like ~5-7 new kits that look amazing. Iron Hands have literally nothing special, no characters or anything. So many sub factions have been thrown away by GW, CSM and SM are the few too armies that even have fleshed out sub factions (my beloved Yme-Loc Eldar are barely cannon, and have less that two sentences devoted to them across all of 40k) Emperors children literally has 100x more stuff dedicated to /just/ emperors children than the Dark Eldar have dedicated to the Kabal of the Black Heart, literally the most powerful Kabal in Commoragh and the main flagship Kabal, oh but other Kabals must have some cool rules or maybe a special character - nope. Nothing. DE have three total special characters, One being a second edition metal and the others being ugly as balls (Urien Rakarth, not in the good HC type way) and the other being sorta cool but unusable on the table.
I was one of the people who was initially quite upset, but I've calmed down now, so I can offer my own perspective.
I appreciate that for lots of armies (Tau, Orks, etc.) faction rules are just colour schemes. The difference with CSM is that GW have put out Legion rules, both in 3.5ed and Traitor's Hate. In 4th they then took them away for no particular reason, not to return for 10 years. So although GW have said that they will be coming back, they do have form for doing weird things with CSM that they haven't done to any other army. So you can understand why they're worried, even if they should have some confidence that these things will be returning.
TonyH122 wrote: I was one of the people who was initially quite upset, but I've calmed down now, so I can offer my own perspective.
I appreciate that for lots of armies (Tau, Orks, etc.) faction rules are just colour schemes. The difference with CSM is that GW have put out Legion rules, both in 3.5ed and Traitor's Hate. In 4th they then took them away for no particular reason, not to return for 10 years. So although GW have said that they will be coming back, they do have form for doing weird things with CSM that they haven't done to any other army. So you can understand why they're worried, even if they should have some confidence that these things will be returning.
Wait until a codex, I am assuming Traitor Legions sold really well, so GW understands the want for traitor legion rules, space marines don't have chapter tactics, so at least the playing field is equal now.
Just because you've had something before isn't a good reason to get it before everyone else (or get it when everyone else doesn't)
They are saying this because its not new stuff its just old stuff. Now by that I mean its new models to replace the death guard but not new units (well as long as you put blinkers on and ignore the drone and pox walkers) .
basicly it boils down to space marines have far to much stuff and they get revamped and more new stuff at least a few times an addition.
But the hope is that since choas is meant to be a main faction this addition that they get new stuff we already know they are getting new plague marine boxes and terminator boxes and of course the big guy. Although thats all we get that we know but we know space marines new faction will get alot new vehicles and at least 4 new boxes of troops and a bunch of character models and maybe a flyer and all done in quick order and that is where the problem for people lies.
8e Death Guard is mediocre at best. The new models look great tho.
hard to tell until you will have the Death Guard codex, index isn't enough to judge real army strenght in 8th
The Index list, even as a stop gap has managed to misplace 3 units that have been Death Guard staples since they were first distinguished as a faction - all the way back in 3rd edition with the Index Astartes articles. That's a strange decision. A very strange decision indeed. And it bodes poorly.
The possibility of getting Scarab Occult'd is not something people want - oh hey, your Death Guard Terminators can now only have X and Y. I mean, consider....
That Thousand Sons Terminators, even with their fixed layout still managed to get shafted. 'Oh, you must have power swords' - there have only been 2 Chaos Terminator Power Sword arms in the entire range and one of them was on the wrong bloody side. How did they expect Thousand Son players to have armed their Terminators with swords when they literally didn't even make the option available for the most part?
Because saying Death Guard/Thousand Sons stuff is 'Chaos' is like saying that a Blood Angels or Dark Angels release means the 'Space Marines' received a release. Yeah, technically they did but only people running Death Guard/Blood Angels/Thousand Sons/Dark Angels actually GET that stuff.
Everybody else - the majority of Chaos players - received Traitor Legions and then had the rules torn away from 'em in eight months.
Meanwhile, Primarines are for EVERY loyalist chapter, complete with many new kits.
With that being said, the only complaints I've really seen from Chaos players are that Traitor Legions got taken away - which settled down when everybody read they were coming back in a jiffy - and some Death Guard players being irked they lost stuff like Fiends, Havocs, etc. It honestly feels like "S-STUPID CHAOS WHINERS!11!" is some sort of meme that loyalist players have to vomit up on reflex or else they get withdrawal symptoms or something.
Well look at it this way. There are two facets to an army. Competitive and flavour.
Competitively, the index is miiiiles ahead of where our 6th ed was relatively speaking. The game as a whole seems more balanced, so that's good.
Yea, we have our stinkers, but so does everybody else. Other units got some pretty nice buffs so on a whole, all is hunky dory here.
On the flavour side they replaced more or less well made legion rules for each legion so that they played pretty differently with...well..nothing really. There is a re-roll aura but everybody gets the same, so were're back to paint scheme legions.
One of our army mechanics was marks, that got replaced with .. nothing. They're just gone. All it does is limit the icon you can have (even more so than before). So not only are legions a paint scheme, but now so is your dedication to a god.
The other mechanic was being able to receive gifts from the chaos gods and becoming a prince, which for many chaos champions is their whole raison d'être. Gone.
So we went from a sandboxish army with finally well represented legions to a bland pile of spiky marines. Cult legions got it a little bit better but there are more undivided legions than cult legions which all get to twiddle their thumbs.
And the cult legions aren't done well either. The major complaints coming from deathguard player who cannot take certain units because they have other equivalent units of their own...except those haven't been released, so again, they replace terminators with nothing.
We aren't the only faction to suffer from this kind of bland mess, but we're the only one that got fixed so recently in such a big manner only to get it all taken away.
And the fact the we lost both army mechanics and the fact that there is no mention of the undivided legions raises legitimate concerns about how GW is going to handle them.
Not everybody is willing to put blind faith into GW fixing everything in a new codex.
Roknar wrote: Well look at it this way. There are two facets to an army. Competitive and flavour.
Competitively, the index is miiiiles ahead of where our 6th ed was relatively speaking. The game as a whole seems more balanced, so that's good.
Yea, we have our stinkers, but so does everybody else. Other units got some pretty nice buffs so on a whole, all is hunky dory here.
On the flavour side they replaced more or less well made legion rules for each legion so that they played pretty differently with...well..nothing really. There is a re-roll aura but everybody gets the same, so were're back to paint scheme legions.
One of our army mechanics was marks, that got replaced with .. nothing. They're just gone. All it does is limit the icon you can have (even more so than before). So not only are legions a paint scheme, but now so is your dedication to a god.
The other mechanic was being able to receive gifts from the chaos gods and becoming a prince, which for many chaos champions is their whole raison d'être. Gone.
So we went from a sandboxish army with finally well represented legions to a bland pile of spiky marines. Cult legions got it a little bit better but there are more undivided legions than cult legions which all get to twiddle their thumbs.
And the cult legions aren't done well either. The major complaints coming from deathguard player who cannot take certain units because they have other equivalent units of their own...except those haven't been released, so again, they replace terminators with nothing.
We aren't the only faction to suffer from this kind of bland mess, but we're the only one that got fixed so recently in such a big manner only to get it all taken away.
And the fact the we lost both army mechanics and the fact that there is no mention of the undivided legions raises legitimate concerns about how GW is going to handle them.
Not everybody is willing to put blind faith into GW fixing everything in a new codex.
I think GW had to make a blank slate so that they can slowly introduce that stuff back in overtime to properly balance it, rather than put it all in at once and hope for the best. Even marines got hit by the same thing, so marines and Chaos are currently on an even playing field. The only difference is, marines get primaris and Chaos get DG/TSons.
While rather odd, it's also known that there are several more Death Guard models on the way - none of which have rules thus far (meaning they'll come in the box and be rolled into a proper codex or an annual index later). So the Death Guard will have terminators (hell, we saw the models), etc. but GW is doing their usual "nothing gets rules till its released!" kind of thing.
Everyone has a bland army at the moment, due to the indexes (which oddly don't seem that bland to me). The special cupcake rules will all come later and the game balance will go to hell again and it'll be proper 40K, I'm sure.
Arbitrator wrote: Because saying Death Guard/Thousand Sons stuff is 'Chaos' is like saying that a Blood Angels or Dark Angels release means the 'Space Marines' received a release. Yeah, technically they did but only people running Death Guard/Blood Angels/Thousand Sons/Dark Angels actually GET that stuff.
That's not totally true. New Plague Marines mean also new sets for Black Legion and Word Bearers at least. Pox Walkers can easily be used as alternative plague bearers. Iron Warriors are known to have used marked troops as well. ALL competitive chaos players used Nurgle bikers before and if the new PMs or the drone have decent rules they will still do so, if the codex allows.
You are right though in pointing out the fractured nature of Chaos players. Due to the character of the army you would have, in a perfect world, at least 5 sets for every choice in the codex, one for every mark. For the most part this will never happen, instead GW seems to give every faction something special instead that the other chaos armies can't use, which is also fine by me, but makes some people feel left behind.
To be honest, I can't even understand people arguing about, for example, the Khorne Berserkers. Yes, they are a very old set with very "heroic" proportions, BUT these marines had already nearly the size of primaris marines 10 years ago. Why GW never released chosen and/or havocs in plastic is absolutely beyond me, I'll admit.
Elbows wrote: While rather odd, it's also known that there are several more Death Guard models on the way - none of which have rules thus far (meaning they'll come in the box and be rolled into a proper codex or an annual index later). So the Death Guard will have terminators (hell, we saw the models), etc. but GW is doing their usual "nothing gets rules till its released!" kind of thing.
Everyone has a bland army at the moment, due to the indexes (which oddly don't seem that bland to me). The special cupcake rules will all come later and the game balance will go to hell again and it'll be proper 40K, I'm sure.
I wouldn't mind an updated csm box and havocs however. I don't really mind the subfaction stuff but the very core undivided stuff feels a fair bit dated.
Are we all forgetting that Oblits and Mutis got nerfed? Oblits are no longer the reliable unit hunter they where, now their gun is freakin random. And mutis...dear god the Mutis. They, somehow, made them worse than they were! I wasn't even sure that was possible.
BTW i play DG and im not happy about this. We just watched SM get a ton of new toys and Chaos got, Plague Zombies that are a separate unit, and some Drones. Wooo.....
Now im not just mad as a CSM player, im made as an Ork player. The SM favoritism is getting ridiculous and its toxic, as anyone who wants in to this hobby has the Power Armored shoved down their throat as their starter army.
SilverAlien wrote: Just anger that we got something we'd been asking for over a decade now (legion rules please), then they got taken away a few months after they were added. As well as the marks that had been our only compensation for loss of legion rules.
It has left people very salty. Thousand sons in particular, due to the way this edition kinda screwed them up.
I don't play chaos but do love their fluff. It's totally understandable because traitor legions was a very very long time coming and a revival of how chaos should work...just in time to go away.
Well look at it this way. There are two facets to an army. Competitive and flavour.
Competitively, the index is miiiiles ahead of where our 6th ed was relatively speaking. The game as a whole seems more balanced, so that's good.
Yea, we have our stinkers, but so does everybody else. Other units got some pretty nice buffs so on a whole, all is hunky dory here.
On the flavour side they replaced more or less well made legion rules for each legion so that they played pretty differently with...well..nothing really. There is a re-roll aura but everybody gets the same, so were're back to paint scheme legions.
One of our army mechanics was marks, that got replaced with .. nothing. They're just gone. All it does is limit the icon you can have (even more so than before). So not only are legions a paint scheme, but now so is your dedication to a god.
The other mechanic was being able to receive gifts from the chaos gods and becoming a prince, which for many chaos champions is their whole raison d'être. Gone.
So we went from a sandboxish army with finally well represented legions to a bland pile of spiky marines. Cult legions got it a little bit better but there are more undivided legions than cult legions which all get to twiddle their thumbs.
And the cult legions aren't done well either. The major complaints coming from deathguard player who cannot take certain units because they have other equivalent units of their own...except those haven't been released, so again, they replace terminators with nothing.
We aren't the only faction to suffer from this kind of bland mess, but we're the only one that got fixed so recently in such a big manner only to get it all taken away.
And the fact the we lost both army mechanics and the fact that there is no mention of the undivided legions raises legitimate concerns about how GW is going to handle them.
Not everybody is willing to put blind faith into GW fixing everything in a new codex.
I think GW had to make a blank slate so that they can slowly introduce that stuff back in overtime to properly balance it, rather than put it all in at once and hope for the best. Even marines got hit by the same thing, so marines and Chaos are currently on an even playing field. The only difference is, marines get primaris and Chaos get DG/TSons.
Tbh, I would have preferred if they started with an actually blank state. Just the datasheets and no army rules at all, for anybody. Not counting the odd aura and psychic powers.
As opposed to kinda adding army rules...but not really and even then only for half the legions in the case of csm and even those are only half implemented.
As it is I'm not at all convinced that csm will be getting a codex any time soon or even that it will give the non cult units something to make up for the loss of marks.
It will be index + DG and probably TSons first. I could easily see GW not adding any gift based mechanics into either as they are already heavily gifted by their gods.
So the rest of csm is not unlikely going to languish with a super bland dex for a long time....again.
Grimmor wrote: It gets worse once you realize that Guardsmen are now 4 ppm and Cultists are still 5, which makes absolutely no sense.
Different armies different costs. Chaos Marines shouldn't had cheap and reliable infantry at the same point efficience than Imperial Guard, otherwise you end with armies that can do everything.
1.) we got Traitor Legions back after over a decade, only to have it torn away from us again mere months later.
2.) Marks seem to be doing nothing now (well, at least compared to other old special effects. They're basically special keywords now), which use to be an integral part of Chaos.
3.) GW promised that the traitor legions would be getting something similar to Primaris Marines and while I don't think it's official, it seems like the Plague Marines was that "something special", which is sort of a kick to the nads to people who were expecting something "new".
That said, while I do own a massive Plague Marine army, I'm not that torn up about it. When the Chaos Codex drops I expect all this stuff to be put right back in. We're in a no better position than the other space marines or the craftworlds, so it's not like chaos's suffering alone. If the codex drops and nothing changes, that's when we should break out the torches and pitchforks. Primaris Marines are just getting the lion's share of attention because their codex is all but confirmed to be the first to drop, and they're getting all of the associated hardware to go with it.
plague marines aren't new, but the rest of the plague range is new. I expect chaos' release pattern for the forseeable future will be based around the 4 gods.
Tiberius501 wrote: So GW announces 8th with the release of Primaris marines and Death Guard.
People then start talking about how it's, "yet another space marine release with no love for chaos." Is everyone forgetting about the new Death Guard faction of Chaos who are also being released? I'm confused as to why people think it's all marines and no Chaos.
Without wanting to get into the greater Derp, just because there's a couple new Death Guard kits doesn't mean much for anyone not playing the relatively niche Death Guard subfaction
Most CSM players don't see "Chaos" as one single faction, mainly because it's not functionally played as one by most people.
Grimmor wrote: It gets worse once you realize that Guardsmen are now 4 ppm and Cultists are still 5, which makes absolutely no sense.
Different armies different costs. Chaos Marines shouldn't had cheap and reliable infantry at the same point efficience than Imperial Guard, otherwise you end with armies that can do everything.
Cheap? Yes. Reliable? As meat shields, sure, anything else, hell no. Guard have a better save, grenades, significantly better army synergy and actual weapon options. Cultist are dirt cheap meat-shields, ones that now cost more than a unit that is objectively their superior.
And, news flash, Space Marines already can do everything, more or less. Having Cultists be priced appropriately (meaning cheaper than Guard) is just being consistent.
Imo while I'm not happy that cultists cost 1 point more than IG infantry, I feel it is fair. They're part of the CSM army, which is largely backed by BS3+ models in 3+ armor wielding decently powerful weapons and daemons. In fact they're cheap meatshields for an army that otherwise doesn't have cheap meatshields. Space Marines don't have cheap meatshields.
This is just like the "WK VS IK" Debate. Different armies have different costs and they shouldn't be compared to each other in a vacuum. If CSM had access to extremely cheap meatshields that were ALSO good at killing stuff, it'd make them too good. Why ever play infantry IG if you can get the same baseline infantry in the CSM codex, better Elite Infantry, better HQs and possibly cheaper/better tanks?
It's not the same baseline infantry. See Grimmor's post above yours. Cultists cannot achieve what Guard can, as they do not have the same equipment or orders. To ensure there is a balanced game, you cannot have units which are objectively better costing less than the other unit. That goes against the concept of balance.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The thing that irritates me personally is that I went back to England for a visit in December and got the Traitor Legion book. I was really looking forward to using it when I returned again for a longer time period in the summer... Now I'll never even get to use it. There was some pure awesome sauce in the TL book. Absolutely gutted I wont be able to test it out!
You can totally have units wich are objectively better costing less than the other unit if they are in different factions with different focus.
A Tau meele unit shouldn't never be as point-optimal as a meele unit for Space Wolves, or Khorne Chaos Marines, or Orks. They need to be "good enough" for the Tau standard, so if I as a Tau player need to put some meele in my army, can pick that unit to do the job... just well enough. And thats what Cultists are. They are "good enough" meat shields in an army of "elite" infantry.
Imperial Guard is an army based in mediocre and cheap infantry. Thats why they have the best mediocre and cheap infantry in the game.
The "everything should cost the same" is the way other games like Infinity work. They are much more balanced, because everyone has access to the same tools and at the same prices, but with different sinergyes between them, and in different numbers (Not everyone has the same access to heavy troops, or hackers, or camouflage guys, etc...) but at the same time is a game that offers much less variety than 40k. If people cry about how the index are "bland"... just try Infinity (And I'm saying this being a ultra fan of Infinity that plays every week. But to Caesar what its of Caesar)
Which would be fine balance wise if the guard player wasn't able to take a SM patrol ally, or one of the 1HQ+(upto)6HS/6FA/6Elites options of marines alongside. But they can. What you are saying *would* work if allies were not possible but they very easily are.
Gonna have to agree with Galas here. While I can understand the frustration of having legion rules taken away so recently, the whinging comes across as an unspoken "I want Chaos to be the new Eldar".
Legion rules will return, just not yet. The indexes are the Ravening Hordes of the 41st millennium. Once actual codices roll out there'll be some sort of chapter/legion/sept/kabal/craftworld/clan/hive fleet/dynasty mechanic
Tiberius501 wrote: So GW announces 8th with the release of Primaris marines and Death Guard.
People then start talking about how it's, "yet another space marine release with no love for chaos." Is everyone forgetting about the new Death Guard faction of Chaos who are also being released? I'm confused as to why people think it's all marines and no Chaos.
Yes, loyalists get new figures. So do we as Chaos. Loyalists are the most popular faction, of course a new edition is going to have a release with some new figures of them in it. And Chaos is also a really popular faction. Well, check out thos awesome minis we get on release.
Sorry to sound like I'm ranting, it's just really weird seeing so many people say this. I know Eldar and Drukhari and Nids and Orks and everyone else don't get new figures in the new set, saying marines are getting another update while our armies die with finecast. I totally get that side of things. Chaos was also in a bit of a rut, with some of the oldest minis in the hobby (obviously excluding poor factions like the Battle Sisters). So one old faction is having some updates! (Along with Thousand Sons).
Oh Chaos is getting something - a shaft their pooper and not in a good way
1) Summoning - gone, there is literally no situation where it's worth risking mortal wounds to summon, when you can just pay the point price to take the units outright (since you do have to pay the points any way), so there's one game mechanic out the window, why did they even keep that mockery aside from rubbing it in our faces is beyond me
2) Magic, by all the Chaos Gods, magic in 8 ed sucks, sure, not only Chaos suffered from this, but If I was collecting Tzeench or bought any of the Thousand sons which were introduced just recently I'd be pissed, they release an army focused on magic and the nerf magic into unusable level, there is literally no point in using any magic whatsoever:
you have a 1/9 chance of perils now, which do D3 wounds and to a flimsy sorcerer that's a lot, not to mention your opponent now has a 50% chance to deny the witch and the spells themselves are very weak, basically you're statistically about as likely to inflict wounds as receive them
So it's like shooting a plasma pistol that kills you on a below 4
3) Chaos Marks - absolutely meaningless, like you add a keyword, so, yeah, cool, now my cultist is a Nurgle cultist, what changes - nothing
4) Fortrifications? Oh they're the same as Imperium, just have worse saves
New Death Guard?
It's way worse than the old Death Guard, cause you can't use half the units, also Nurgle mark means nothing so you don't get the added toughness and you have the same Feel No Pain as before, but now your crappy poxwalkers don't even come back from the dead, cause there's no Artefact for that...
There is not 1 good thing for Chaos in this edition
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Roknar wrote: Well look at it this way. There are two facets to an army. Competitive and flavour.
Competitively, the index is miiiiles ahead of where our 6th ed was relatively speaking. The game as a whole seems more balanced, so that's good.
Yea, we have our stinkers, but so does everybody else. Other units got some pretty nice buffs so on a whole, all is hunky dory here.
On the flavour side they replaced more or less well made legion rules for each legion so that they played pretty differently with...well..nothing really. There is a re-roll aura but everybody gets the same, so were're back to paint scheme legions.
One of our army mechanics was marks, that got replaced with .. nothing. They're just gone. All it does is limit the icon you can have (even more so than before). So not only are legions a paint scheme, but now so is your dedication to a god.
The other mechanic was being able to receive gifts from the chaos gods and becoming a prince, which for many chaos champions is their whole raison d'être. Gone.
So we went from a sandboxish army with finally well represented legions to a bland pile of spiky marines. Cult legions got it a little bit better but there are more undivided legions than cult legions which all get to twiddle their thumbs.
And the cult legions aren't done well either. The major complaints coming from deathguard player who cannot take certain units because they have other equivalent units of their own...except those haven't been released, so again, they replace terminators with nothing.
We aren't the only faction to suffer from this kind of bland mess, but we're the only one that got fixed so recently in such a big manner only to get it all taken away.
And the fact the we lost both army mechanics and the fact that there is no mention of the undivided legions raises legitimate concerns about how GW is going to handle them.
Not everybody is willing to put blind faith into GW fixing everything in a new codex.
Agree with all except the part about competitive
With Summoning now gone (lets be real, you have to pre-allocate points for your summons, that means you will never, ever summon since it's simply better to just take the demons without summoning them)
With magic nerfed to the ground
Chaos lost 2 tools that made their armies competitive, because there's plenty armies that shoot better and assault armies aren't competitive at all anyway
Poster child of the new edition - Deathguard, is also nerfed compared to previous ed, has less unit choices, less toughness, worse pox walkers (they no longer come back from the dead).... Basically it's a generic shooting army, that doesn't really do the shooting too well either when compared to how net Imperium armies do it
Let's not forget Fealess as well, you had fearless on your Death Guard before, now you don't...
1) Summoning - gone, there is literally no situation where it's worth risking mortal wounds to summon, when you can just pay the point price to take the units outright (since you do have to pay the points any way), so there's one game mechanic out the window, why did they even keep that mockery aside from rubbing it in our faces is beyond me
Wrong. You now get a system that isn't broken. You have 300 points for example. You either buy a unit with them, or you have the flexibility to summon a specific unit you need right at the time you need it. It's the ultimate toolbox. Works well in AoS. Try playing some games before writing off a mechanic.
2) Magic, by all the Chaos Gods, magic in 8 ed sucks, sure, not only Chaos suffered from this, but If I was collecting Tzeench or bought any of the Thousand sons which were introduced just recently I'd be pissed, they release an army focused on magic and the nerf magic into unusable level, there is literally no point in using any magic whatsoever:
you have a 1/9 chance of perils now, which do D3 wounds and to a flimsy sorcerer that's a lot, not to mention your opponent now has a 50% chance to deny the witch and the spells themselves are very weak, basically you're statistically about as likely to inflict wounds as receive them
So it's like shooting a plasma pistol that kills you on a below 4
Thousand Sons will get a codex, that will give them bonuses. If you are seriously suggesting that the rules you have on release day are as good as it gets for Tzeench, you are in for a suprise.
3) Chaos Marks - absolutely meaningless, like you add a keyword, so, yeah, cool, now my cultist is a Nurgle cultist, what changes - nothing
This is just the baseline. Wait until the codexs start appearing, and prepare to chow down on these words
4) Fortrifications? Oh they're the same as Imperium, just have worse saves
New Death Guard?
It's way worse than the old Death Guard, cause you can't use half the units, also Nurgle mark means nothing so you don't get the added toughness and you have the same Feel No Pain as before, but now your crappy poxwalkers don't even come back from the dead, cause there's no Artefact for that...
There is not 1 good thing for Chaos in this edition
Writing off an entire faction on release day is so short sighted and reactionary it barely deserves a reply. You have a release which is essentially a framework that allows all models that are currently sold to be used. We know for a fact that a Death Guard book is coming. probably in the very near future with Morty and Typhus.
Have a look at AoS. You have great battletomes that really flesh out a force, loads of narrative, unit specific rules and bonuses that fit with the army, cool detachments that thematically deliver bonuses. Don't worry, GW has proven they can do this.
We know for a fact that a Death Guard book is coming. probably in the very near future with Morty and Typhus.
We do? Where has anything about a Death Guard codex been confirmed? No, you're assuming a codex is coming. For all we know we're just getting a campaign book to give all the new shiny toys for the Primaris, and the Mortarian model and DG terminators will be tacked on there.
Yes, we might get a full codex, but we don't "know that for a fact" because it hasn't been confirmed by anyone. It's pure speculation at this point.
1) Summoning - gone, there is literally no situation where it's worth risking mortal wounds to summon, when you can just pay the point price to take the units outright (since you do have to pay the points any way), so there's one game mechanic out the window, why did they even keep that mockery aside from rubbing it in our faces is beyond me
Wrong. You now get a system that isn't broken. You have 300 points for example. You either buy a unit with them, or you have the flexibility to summon a specific unit you need right at the time you need it. It's the ultimate toolbox. Works well in AoS. Try playing some games before writing off a mechanic.
2) Magic, by all the Chaos Gods, magic in 8 ed sucks, sure, not only Chaos suffered from this, but If I was collecting Tzeench or bought any of the Thousand sons which were introduced just recently I'd be pissed, they release an army focused on magic and the nerf magic into unusable level, there is literally no point in using any magic whatsoever:
you have a 1/9 chance of perils now, which do D3 wounds and to a flimsy sorcerer that's a lot, not to mention your opponent now has a 50% chance to deny the witch and the spells themselves are very weak, basically you're statistically about as likely to inflict wounds as receive them
So it's like shooting a plasma pistol that kills you on a below 4
Thousand Sons will get a codex, that will give them bonuses. If you are seriously suggesting that the rules you have on release day are as good as it gets for Tzeench, you are in for a suprise.
3) Chaos Marks - absolutely meaningless, like you add a keyword, so, yeah, cool, now my cultist is a Nurgle cultist, what changes - nothing
This is just the baseline. Wait until the codexs start appearing, and prepare to chow down on these words
4) Fortrifications? Oh they're the same as Imperium, just have worse saves
New Death Guard?
It's way worse than the old Death Guard, cause you can't use half the units, also Nurgle mark means nothing so you don't get the added toughness and you have the same Feel No Pain as before, but now your crappy poxwalkers don't even come back from the dead, cause there's no Artefact for that...
There is not 1 good thing for Chaos in this edition
Writing off an entire faction on release day is so short sighted and reactionary it barely deserves a reply. You have a release which is essentially a framework that allows all models that are currently sold to be used. We know for a fact that a Death Guard book is coming. probably in the very near future with Morty and Typhus.
Have a look at AoS. You have great battletomes that really flesh out a force, loads of narrative, unit specific rules and bonuses that fit with the army, cool detachments that thematically deliver bonuses. Don't worry, GW has proven they can do this.
1) What flexibility are you refering to? You have to stand stationary to summon, as opposed to you being able to move AND run in the previous edition. You also have a 1/3 chance to suffer perils when summoning higher level units. These 2 drawbacks are ON TOP of having the points cost introduced.
Also you're forgetting the fact that now, if your summoner gets killed (which is much more likely in this edition) you lose all the points you pre-allocated.
So basically either you summon from the back lines (in which case there is no point summoning) or you expose your summoner, wait a turn (since you can't summon after moving), hope the summoner doesn't die and only then summon
2) What codexes are you refering to?
There is leaks of all the indexes already and there's 0 customization with all the traitor legions involved there, aside form having the faction elite marines as troop choices
Also work on your reading comprehension - faction being much worse off than in previous edition =/= it being written of completely, but it is undeniably suffering a lot of viability loss in comparison to any Imperium faction
Ironically yet not surprisingly, Eldar tended to be the army most capable of adding summoning to their list, by simple merit of being able to ignore Wounds from Perils due to a Ghosthelm, the FAQ limiting characters to one relic not existing (so you could have a Jetseer with both the Stone of -1 Warp Charge cost, and the Mantle of 2+ Rerollable Jink Saves and Hit&Run), and the Farseer seldom being a viable target anyway since you still had a ton of Wave Serpents to contend with!
With regards to summoning, most Chaos armies don't shoot, and lack innate survivability of their own. The deadlier Daemon armies were those that stacked defensive buffs and camped objectives, while CSM got passed over for most competitive events. Wrath of Magnus added Magnus to Daemon Lists as a psychic Deathstar (not in the "can't be killed" way, but in the "really big gun way"), but once again the issues weren't so much the summoning, so much as the ability to summon combined with a pre-emptive psychic alphastrike.
My general argument would be: 7e Summoning with 8e move restrictions would be more balanced than either, giving an actual purpose to summons (attrition/fixed material advantage) while preventing them from being so dangerous for scenario-play. Not only this, but "static summoners" focusing on the ritual aspect (maybe allow the sacrifice of nearby non-Daemonic models as a general summoning requirement?) would be far more thematic compared to Biker/Flyer Daemonbombs.
Poly Ranger wrote: It's not the same baseline infantry. See Grimmor's post above yours. Cultists cannot achieve what Guard can, as they do not have the same equipment or orders. To ensure there is a balanced game, you cannot have units which are objectively better costing less than the other unit. That goes against the concept of balance.
If you bothered reading my entire post you'd know that I was taking hypothetically. If the Cultists were either made to be identical to Guardsmen OR balanced against the Guardsmen, it'd instead cause an inbalance in the rules overall. Looking at a single unit in a complete vacuum without consideration of the larger faction as a whole is a fallacy a lot of people have on this forum. One of the things with Guard is that they don't have all-rounder elite infantry like Space Marines; the closest are Scions which are really expensive for what they bring to the field and not all that flexible (try putting one in fisticuffs with a space marine and see how that turns out).
It sucks to play more, yes, but looking at another faction and demanding you have the same thing while not looking at what you already have in your faction is silly and selfish. If every faction had every unit balanced against each other, the only possible way it could work out is if every faction was functionally identical (i.e: there would be only one faction) with only minor tweaks.
Rippy wrote: People are sad that we just got traitor legions, and then took those benefits away 6 months later.
But they will come back when the codices drop.
Yeah, but Space Marines, for the most part, lost Chapter Tactics. In fact, there are more special rules for the Cult Chaos Space Marines than there are for Blood Angels (who have the ability to take Jump Packs on like three additional units, WOOO! And that is it). And Vanilla Space Marines literally have NO special rules, which is not true for Chaos Space Marines.
Again, they had those rules for a few years. We got to play with ours for six months. We hope we get all that back soon, but we are aware we will likely take a back seat. DG will get early support, but after that expect chaos to have a decent wait time to get anything like legion rules back.
We might get the cults updated soon, but even that isn't a given (emperor's children and world eaters look like they aren't expecting new units for example). Thousand sons might get an update, as the alck of a unique psychic discipline seems galling, but more likely they will get a modified version of tzeentch in a FAQ, maybe chapter approved.
While I get the bitchin' about losing our Legion rules after a mere 6 months (and at release I was saying this was the worst time to ever receive Legion rules for these exact reasons), we have to look at it this way:
We are getting a full codex with Legion rules at some later point.
The Indices have made loads of playstyles viable, rather than DG, EC, Magnus + Daemonspam, and WE.
Grumzimus wrote: Hrm..... I have just realised how bland and unflavorful my 40k life will now be with the 8th edition chaos index :(
I had just got my Night Lords army rules I had always wanted....
Gone!!
Like tears in the rain
;(
Night Lords, with Raptors and Warp Talons backed by a Sorcerer, are pretty damn strong. If you cast Warp Time, you can guarantee a Turn 1 charge with Warp Talons. If anything, Night Lords work better than ever.
We know for a fact that a Death Guard book is coming. probably in the very near future with Morty and Typhus.
We do? Where has anything about a Death Guard codex been confirmed? No, you're assuming a codex is coming. For all we know we're just getting a campaign book to give all the new shiny toys for the Primaris, and the Mortarian model and DG terminators will be tacked on there.
Yes, we might get a full codex, but we don't "know that for a fact" because it hasn't been confirmed by anyone. It's pure speculation at this point.
Ok fine. As a Death Guard player, I'll give 100 quid to a charity of your choice if we don't get a Codex with more Deathguard rules.
As an outsider to chaos up until a month ago I share the sentiment. I've DL'd and absorbed every book. The balance seems much better the games much faster. No more gladius or "ATSKNRules" but no more marks or daemon weapons or really any customization of characters either. Overall a push is a win I guess..
The rules scream robin cruddace but I know theres still some real designers over there capable of doing traitor legions for 8th. I just hope it happens quick before I lose interest again lol.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Yea its not like Chaos got KDK, Renegade/chaos knights, Tzeench/Thousand Sons, Traitor Legions, Death Guard...
Clearly nothing
The issue is some of our mains kits are what, 15 years old? Some are probably coming up on 2 decades by now.
Includes, but not limited to:
All HQs bar Khârn and Ahriman are in resin, lacking loads of options. At least Cypher used to come in metal. Abaddon and Fabius are 21 years old. Toy soldiers than legally buy beer in the US.
The basic CSM kit, while not awful, is ancient and doesn't come with all the upgrades. Bizarrely also always in top 10 most sold - we're bloody popular.
Khorne Berserkers and Noise Marines (GW don't even use the former kit to make Khorne Berserkers), in addition to coming with non-matching numbers of upgrades (helmets, guns etc).
Mutilators and Obliterators
Havocs. Jesus, our Havocs.
The problem is the amount of models that need reworking. Just a year ago, we were lacking Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, and all the HQs. It's going in the right direction, but we have so far to go. I would gladly take all these over Magnus any day.
dominuschao wrote: As an outsider to chaos up until a month ago I share the sentiment. I've DL'd and absorbed every book. The balance seems much better the games much faster. No more gladius or "ATSKNRules" but no more marks or daemon weapons or really any customization of characters either. Overall a push is a win I guess..
The rules scream robin cruddace but I know theres still some real designers over there capable of doing traitor legions for 8th. I just hope it happens quick before I lose interest again lol.
We have TOs to thank for the current balance, I believe. The Pansersex better stay away.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Yea its not like Chaos got KDK, Renegade/chaos knights, Tzeench/Thousand Sons, Traitor Legions, Death Guard...
Clearly nothing
The issue is some of our mains kits are what, 15 years old? Some are probably coming up on 2 decades by now.
Includes, but not limited to:
All HQs bar Khârn and Ahriman are in resin, lacking loads of options. At least Cypher used to come in metal. Abaddon and Fabius are 21 years old. Toy soldiers than legally buy beer in the US.
The basic CSM kit, while not awful, is ancient and doesn't come with all the upgrades. Bizarrely also always in top 10 most sold - we're bloody popular.
Khorne Berserkers and Noise Marines (GW don't even use the former kit to make Khorne Berserkers), in addition to coming with non-matching numbers of upgrades (helmets, guns etc).
Mutilators and Obliterators
Havocs. Jesus, our Havocs.
The problem is the amount of models that need reworking. Just a year ago, we were lacking Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, and all the HQs. It's going in the right direction, but we have so far to go. I would gladly take all these over Magnus any day.
dominuschao wrote: As an outsider to chaos up until a month ago I share the sentiment. I've DL'd and absorbed every book. The balance seems much better the games much faster. No more gladius or "ATSKNRules" but no more marks or daemon weapons or really any customization of characters either. Overall a push is a win I guess..
The rules scream robin cruddace but I know theres still some real designers over there capable of doing traitor legions for 8th. I just hope it happens quick before I lose interest again lol.
We have TOs to thank for the current balance, I believe. The Pansersex better stay away.
See though, you guys are getting things
Think of sisters, forever waiting for plastic; as much as I hate admitting it, a lot of eldar models are even older than chaos stuff, Ork stuff is also out of date as well as other factions
Chaos being the big bad is getting a plethora of new and updated models, and this is why people are mocking chaos players for whining about 'never getting anything'
We know for a fact that a Death Guard book is coming. probably in the very near future with Morty and Typhus.
We do? Where has anything about a Death Guard codex been confirmed? No, you're assuming a codex is coming. For all we know we're just getting a campaign book to give all the new shiny toys for the Primaris, and the Mortarian model and DG terminators will be tacked on there.
Yes, we might get a full codex, but we don't "know that for a fact" because it hasn't been confirmed by anyone. It's pure speculation at this point.
Ok fine. As a Death Guard player, I'll give 100 quid to a charity of your choice if we don't get a Codex with more Deathguard rules.
If it does, you can do the same?
You said we know it for a fact we will get a codex soon. We don't. We know we will get one eventually but you're making assumptions and calling it facts.
It thought we only had Alternative Facts here in America, but apparently not.
Think of sisters, forever waiting for plastic; as much as I hate admitting it, a lot of eldar models are even older than chaos stuff, Ork stuff is also out of date as well as other factions
Chaos being the big bad is getting a plethora of new and updated models, and this is why people are mocking chaos players for whining about 'never getting anything'
We have been getting things sporadically for a year. Before that, it was with the release of 6th edition.
I totally agree there are loads of things that needed upgraded, not just with Chaos. My issue is SMs getting an entirely new range, while Chaos (supposedly the big bad guy) languishes with models older than GW's average customer. Of course this applies to everyone, from Ghazzy to Eldar, but I play Chaos, so that's my POV.
Summoning is more flexible in that any Chaos Character can Summon, not just Psykers. Also, you don't have to specify what you are summoning till after you roll. Roll high, bring something heavy hitting or a big unit of 20, roll low bring in a herald or 10 lesser daemons.
I wouldn't put more than 1-2 units in for summoning anyways.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Summoning is more flexible in that any Chaos Character can Summon, not just Psykers. Also, you don't have to specify what you are summoning till after you roll. Roll high, bring something heavy hitting or a big unit of 20, roll low bring in a herald or 10 lesser daemons.
I wouldn't put more than 1-2 units in for summoning anyways.
It also can't be denied.
Agreed, I like this, to a degree. Dark Apostles, Daemon Princes, and Sorcerers should definitely be able to summon, more unsure on Chaos Lords and Warpsmiths.
SilverAlien wrote: Again, they had those rules for a few years. We got to play with ours for six months. We hope we get all that back soon, but we are aware we will likely take a back seat. DG will get early support, but after that expect chaos to have a decent wait time to get anything like legion rules back.
We might get the cults updated soon, but even that isn't a given (emperor's children and world eaters look like they aren't expecting new units for example). Thousand sons might get an update, as the alck of a unique psychic discipline seems galling, but more likely they will get a modified version of tzeentch in a FAQ, maybe chapter approved.
Wasn't there craftworld rules in 4th (?) ed. Y'all had traitor legion rules, and then had them removed around the same time Eldar did, but the difference is you got your rules back, even if temporarily
Tons of factions want their special 'chapter tactics' but it can't always be done, space marines had them because they are GW's cash cow, everyone else lost those rules, not just chaos.
JNAProductions wrote: Clearly, the solution is, then, to say "Well, sucks to suck, guess we never get special rules unless we're Space Marines."
Or, you know, maybe GW should give EVERYONE cool and special rules.
I think the problem comes down to how players see themselves.
GW don't stop repeating how "Chaos is the big bad!" so when Chaos are treated equally bad as other non-space marine factions they feel they are more entitled to receive new kits, etc... and when they receive those they aren't enough because they aren't as much as Space Marines!
As a xenos player obviously I'll love for a less Space-Marine centric 40k.
But thats not what 40k is about. The protagonists of Warhammer 40k are Space Marines. Thats a fact. The rest of the Imperium are here just to be addons to the Space Marines narrative, and complete races like Tyranids and Orks are just here to be the NPC race for the Space Marines.
Is just being realistic. I don't go saying that Action Man receives all the atention, and call for more attention and toys for Doctor X. Because thats isn't how that "setting" is constructed.
JNAProductions wrote: The protagonists of Warhammer 40k are Space Marines. Thats a fact. The rest of the Imperium are here just to be addons to the Space Marines narrative, and complete races like Tyranids and Orks are just here to be the NPC race for the Space Marines.
Is just being realistic.
Poly Ranger wrote: It's not the same baseline infantry. See Grimmor's post above yours. Cultists cannot achieve what Guard can, as they do not have the same equipment or orders. To ensure there is a balanced game, you cannot have units which are objectively better costing less than the other unit. That goes against the concept of balance.
If you bothered reading my entire post you'd know that I was taking hypothetically. If the Cultists were either made to be identical to Guardsmen OR balanced against the Guardsmen, it'd instead cause an inbalance in the rules overall. Looking at a single unit in a complete vacuum without consideration of the larger faction as a whole is a fallacy a lot of people have on this forum. One of the things with Guard is that they don't have all-rounder elite infantry like Space Marines; the closest are Scions which are really expensive for what they bring to the field and not all that flexible (try putting one in fisticuffs with a space marine and see how that turns out).
It sucks to play more, yes, but looking at another faction and demanding you have the same thing while not looking at what you already have in your faction is silly and selfish. If every faction had every unit balanced against each other, the only possible way it could work out is if every faction was functionally identical (i.e: there would be only one faction) with only minor tweaks.
I didnt look at them in a vacuum and i didnt want them to be the same as Guardsmen, i want the pricing to make sense, cuz right now it doesnt. Guardsmen are better in every way, and cheaper, than Cultists. Which makes no damn sense.
If Cultists cost 4ppm just like Guard, Guard would still be better, and i wouldnt be complaining.
I for one am glad to see summoning free units gone. I hope they balanced the codex well without it, but I rather hated having to face more points than I agreed to in a game.. oh look a gladius hereon this table, oh look tzeench summoning in everything there this is going to be not fun.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Summoning is more flexible in that any Chaos Character can Summon, not just Psykers. Also, you don't have to specify what you are summoning till after you roll. Roll high, bring something heavy hitting or a big unit of 20, roll low bring in a herald or 10 lesser daemons.
I wouldn't put more than 1-2 units in for summoning anyways.
It also can't be denied.
Agreed, I like this, to a degree. Dark Apostles, Daemon Princes, and Sorcerers should definitely be able to summon, more unsure on Chaos Lords and Warpsmiths.
Kharn can summon with these rules. I think that is fantastic.
JNAProductions wrote: Clearly, the solution is, then, to say "Well, sucks to suck, guess we never get special rules unless we're Space Marines."
Or, you know, maybe GW should give EVERYONE cool and special rules.
I think the problem comes down to how players see themselves.
GW don't stop repeating how "Chaos is the big bad!" so when Chaos are treated equally bad as other non-space marine factions they feel they are more entitled to receive new kits, etc... and when they receive those they aren't enough because they aren't as much as Space Marines!
As a xenos player obviously I'll love for a less Space-Marine centric 40k.
But thats not what 40k is about. The protagonists of Warhammer 40k are Space Marines. Thats a fact. The rest of the Imperium are here just to be addons to the Space Marines narrative, and complete races like Tyranids and Orks are just here to be the NPC race for the Space Marines.
Is just being realistic. I don't go saying that Action Man receives all the atention, and call for more attention and toys for Doctor X. Because thats isn't how that "setting" is constructed.
"You don't play Space Marines, so go feth off and enjoy scraps from the dinner table."
Chaos just happens to be the first to get the scraps-I guess Chaos is the family dog and the rest of the factions are the mice.
I hate to say it, but essentially yes. Not that i agree with it, mind you, i think every race should be done to space marine levels. But the proof is in the pudding - just look at how gw has been treating the other factions over the years. Eldar and tau have been rather fortunate, one got good rules at the end and the other got good models. The rest? I think describing them as npcs for the 'good guys' to beat is fairly accurate.
I dunno, I really feel like this whole thread is a joke. I haven't seen any more Chaos players complaining than sisters or regular SM, or Tau (granted he does post a lot so it might seem over inflated). Care to give an example of a thread where this is the case? Don't. I will just give examples where others have done so as well. Everybody's army got vanillaed until the codexes come out. Just be a bit patient.
JNAProductions wrote: Okay-can we agree that that's NOT COOL, and should be changed?
Because you seemed to be endorsing it, which now appears to be me misreading it.
My apologies, certainly not my intent. Yes i agree it's not cool and should be changed. I've thought that way for a long time now. It's the big thing stopping me right now from getting back into 40k - i want things to be different, but so far haven't seen any sign of it. :(
We could, you know, be in this together. Rather than saying "you shouldn't complain because you lost your toys just like everyone else", ask why there was removal in the first place? Why did Orks lose their Clan rules from 3rd ed, why did Eldar get consolidated (I get "because codex swaps" but still), why they scrapped Doctrines for Guard rather than thinking about rebalancing them in a way that wasn't 100% no-brainer ("hmm, do I take Drop Troops or Warrior Weapons?")
Scrapping everything from the get go is going to leave people sour, be they folks with Ard Boyz, Palanquin Heralds, Vendettas, etc. Strict removal of options is one of the reasons nobody took 4e Chaos seriously as that codex really didn't have anything going for it other than Lash for noobslays. Sad.
...Why would Chaos be getting nothing? Chaos is getting a load of things. PotMS. Price drops. Vastly cheaper MCs. Non-psychic shooting attacks on Daemons. Terminators that aren't forced to spend twenty points on a powerfist (grr). Hellchickens with the power to flutter around mangling aircraft/skimmers. A bonus Fight phase a turn for Berzerker units.
AnomanderRake wrote: ...Why would Chaos be getting nothing? Chaos is getting a load of things. PotMS. Price drops. Vastly cheaper MCs. Non-psychic shooting attacks on Daemons. Terminators that aren't forced to spend twenty points on a powerfist (grr). Hellchickens with the power to flutter around mangling aircraft/skimmers. A bonus Fight phase a turn for Berzerker units.
Lasgun-strength shooting with shotgun range, since apparently the 4e shooting profile was too good or so.
Terminators lost the ability to be fielded in units of 3, and the new DS restrictions will hurt their old Termicide use altogether; what's the point of using them to disrupt an opponent's plan when an entire denial grid can be strung out so easily?
Bikes lost the ability to field both pistols and close combat weapons: it's now either a pistol or a chainsword.
Helchickens...had that power and then some. They did "gain" as the ability to serve as a character-sniper.
Forgefiends lost their ability to move-and-fire.
The real winner fwiw would be Noise Marines due to their ability to keep shooting, and Sonic Blasters becoming Assault again.
AnomanderRake wrote: ...Why would Chaos be getting nothing? Chaos is getting a load of things. PotMS. Price drops. Vastly cheaper MCs. Non-psychic shooting attacks on Daemons. Terminators that aren't forced to spend twenty points on a powerfist (grr). Hellchickens with the power to flutter around mangling aircraft/skimmers. A bonus Fight phase a turn for Berzerker units.
Well, in addittion to the ones MagicJugglerMade already said:
Terminators cant be only 3. Not just for price, now you cant put a lord with a terminator unit inside a land raider.
The lsot of marks. Ok, I can understand no legions since no clans/chapters. But marks??????? omg, why the hell they did such a thing? We paid for them, is not like they were free. Also is antilore that a theench lord is the same than a khorne one.
Plague marines nerfed since now cant have combat weapon, boltgun and bolter. Is important. In particular if the prices doesnt drops. They also lost fearless.
Mutilators nerfed (yes...they are worst than before, even if no one could believe hahahha)
Obliterators nerfed to the ground. They destroyed them. Now are like a bad strange autocanon (less range). But similar cost to old ones... This is huge since they were our best shot unit. Now are ***** xD
Cultist more expensive than guards....odd hahaahha.
The baleflammer is waaaaay worst. Ok, the old one is op, but the new one is really bad. A huge drop on effectivity even when the model now cost more.
The new drones are kinda bad with only those flammers as option.
Why CSMDP has no powers/buffs according to their gods like the daemon army get? That is odd xDD
Again no marks? omg. I need to repeat hahaha
Tsons are not point efective because the sorccerer. The psudosmite they have is soooo bland. Poor damage with low range and that must shoot to the most close enemy. Meh
Defiler is still bad. And with a -1 when moving on the battlecannon.
New summon is bad. To much risks for very low advantages. Not just you cant move, maybe you cant summon what you need. Since you need pay points ever all that I dont think people summon.
And sure I am missing stuff, but i am tired hahaha
JNAProductions wrote: Okay-can we agree that that's NOT COOL, and should be changed?
Because you seemed to be endorsing it, which now appears to be me misreading it.
In any shape or form I'm endorsing it. I was just describing the reality of Warhammer 40k the Wargame. Because I can see how it works doesn't mean I'm fine with that. As I have said, I'm a Xenos player, so personally I gain nothing with the Space Marine centric vision of 40k.
Lasgun-strength shooting with shotgun range, since apparently the 4e shooting profile was too good or so.
On...what? Cultists? Who have free autoguns that are literally lasguns?
Terminators lost the ability to be fielded in units of 3, and the new DS restrictions will hurt their old Termicide use altogether; what's the point of using them to disrupt an opponent's plan when an entire denial grid can be strung out so easily?
Come complain about your loss of 3-model Terminator units when you can't get five Terminators for the price of three loyalist Terminators. Or, better yet, go complain at the Deathwatch (whose Terminators are now unplayably overpriced).
Bikes lost the ability to field both pistols and close combat weapons: it's now either a pistol or a chainsword.
...You do know pistol/chainsword doesn't give a bonus attack anymore, right? And having a chainsword does?
Helchickens...had that power and then some. They did "gain" as the ability to serve as a character-sniper.
They had the ability to make a fly-by attack, yes. They didn't have the ability to charge, lock a target in combat, and make a bunch of attacks with a useful AP value that did multiple wounds each.
Forgefiends lost their ability to move-and-fire.
And gained auto-succeeding IWND and way more wounds than a straight conversion implies they ought to (same AV/HP as a Dreadnaught before, now same T/Sv as a Dreadnaught but four extra Wounds). And a higher move rate. And they can totally still move and fire, it's just 2/3 the effectiveness of not moving and firing.
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Franarok wrote: The lsot of marks. Ok, I can understand no legions since no clans/chapters. But marks??????? omg, why the hell they did such a thing? We paid for them, is not like they were free. Also is antilore that a theench lord is the same than a khorne one.
This is a weird one. I understand why they did it (if you had Marks and Cult units you could make a strong argument for needing nine versions of every Chaos unit (unmarked, 4x marked, 4x Cult) before adding Legions, at which point the permutations are just silly; and they can't delete Cult units (since there are boxes labeled "Berserkers"/"Plague Marines"/etc.), so they deleted Marks to cut down on the number of Chaos dataslates), though I don't agree with it (if I'd been writing this book I'd have done fancier Marks the way the 3.5e book did them).
Plague marines nerfed since now cant have combat weapon, boltgun and bolter. Is important. In particular if the prices doesnt drops. They also lost fearless.
I'm seeing a points drop (21 now v. 24 before). And CCW/pistol doesn't actually give an extra attack anymore, so I'm not sure how this is a nerf to Plague Marines as opposed to a nerf to everyone without chainswords.
Mutilators nerfed (yes...they are worst than before, even if no one could believe hahahha)
I'm kind of skeptical of the price hike, but at the moment the thing that annoys me the most is that the math I have to do to tell you whether I agree with you is going to be absurdly long and annoying with 27 permutations of weapon to go through.
Obliterators nerfed to the ground. They destroyed them. Now are like a bad strange autocanon (less range). But similar cost to old ones... This is huge since they were our best shot unit. Now are ***** xD
See above. Except "not sure about the price drop" instead of "skeptical about the price hike".
Cultist more expensive than guards....odd hahaahha.
...Yeah, that one has me confused too. Maybe they think the ability to have a "brutal CCW" for a bonus attack is better than we do?
The baleflammer is waaaaay worst. Ok, the old one is op, but the new one is really bad. A huge drop on effectivity even when the model now cost more.
..."OP"? Try "single-handedly removed power-armoured infantry outside of transports from all lists in 6th". (And as for "the new one is really bad" it really isn't. Gaining the ability to make 2+ armour models run screaming and get bonus auto-hits on flyers is kind of significant. It's worse at RFPing Devastator squads, better at just about everything else.)
Why CSMDP has no powers/buffs according to their gods like the daemon army get? That is odd xDD
My guess is stopgap bug. Daemons have their "Legion"/"Craftworld"/"Chapter"/whatever rules already. CSM don't. A CSM Daemon Prince has a Legion rule, which is likely to do more when full Codexes start appearing.
Tsons are not point efective because the sorccerer. The psudosmite they have is soooo bland. Poor damage with low range and that must shoot to the most close enemy. Meh
...Are we talking about the 6e Codex all of a sudden? Because the Thousand Sons I'm looking at got a pretty huge points drop (from 150 for a base squad to 112), constant-on Force, and 2+ armour against 1-damage weapons. Sure, their power is crap. The rest of the unit is a lot better.
Defiler is still bad. And with a -1 when moving on the battlecannon.
Not sure I agree on this one. I am kind of weirded out by battlecannons on BS4+ chassis after watching a Guard gunline whiff excessively, but the price hasn't changed much (it's gone from "slightly cheaper than a Land Raider" to "slightly cheaper than a Land Raider", vehicles have had a general price hike), it's a lot harder to get rid of than it used to be, and the melee hitting power lets it be an actual threat to Knights/gargantuans for a pretty reasonable pricetag.
AnomanderRake: Horrors in 4th had a S4 AP 4 assault 3 shooting attack. They were 17 ppm though. Cultists weren't in the Gav Thorpe codex (he most notably recommended using "Lesser Daemons" as counts-as).
MSU Termicide was a thing and is no longer legal. Ditto running Solo Obliterators (and Mutilators to a lesser extent); the game already added split-fire so half the advantage of MSU was already removed.
I'm aware about the Bikes. The major thing, the BP/CCW option was one of the few distinctions Chaos got in their army, alongside being able to swap out their Bike weapons for their Specials (which to be fair was still kept). I seriously doubt this was a gamebreaker, considering they lack Grav and didn't have access to Hit&Run/Skilled Riders then.
I can agree on the new psykic power stuff. Tsons are meant to be all about that, but they don't have much to play with.
This was, however, the same for AoS when it was first brought in with the new rules, but now Tzeentch has a heap of extra spells to play with. And Tsons don't suck in my mind, even with the smaller number of spells.
A unit of 10 Tsons with a reaper gun and sorcerer come to roughly the same cost as a unit of 5 basic Primaris marines and would demolish the Primaris marines.
Anyway, my point wasn't that Chaos is getting some things taken out (just like every other army including space marines), but that people have been saying that this new release is another marine release without Chaos getting anything and being pushed down again.
Yet Tsons look pretty strong, with pretty recent figures, Nurgle is getting a launch day release with more faction focused units said to be on the way, and several statements from GW explaining how Chaos is going to be the main villain of this edition, meaning almost certainly that there will be big updates across the board for figures and rules as we go deeper into the edition.
But some people don't notice that, and just notice the few things that are being taken out before all the epic new stuff is chucked in.
Everyone, including guard, have had some rule changes that make things seem less powerful. Leman Russes for example. All of their main cannons could be seen as terrible in terms of average dmg output. But we don't know how it'll compare with other armies now that EVERYONE is getting rules changes.
Anyway, I'm not mad or trying to insult people, sorry if I come out that way. I've noticed people complaining about their, "Tau being nerfed," or their, "Eldar becoming unplayable," or their, "Guard Russes becoming worthless." And I can understand it when you first look at your rules and see some rules changes that don't look great when compared to 7ed meta.
It's happened to everyone, so we should all be on a level playing field and these things people think suck, might be good in the new meta.
In any case, Chaos, as a faction, is still getting a heap of stuff in 8th, whether it start as DG getting some new plastics compared to their currently ancient kits, or your basic Chaos marines. It's still new figures for Chaos so they're still getting stuff. And this is only the first release we've seen for 8th.
I also know that it could've been normal Chaos marines that they released with the starter set instead of Nurgle, but I'm expecting normal Chaos to be updated with a new Abaddon release, who couldn't have been put in the starter box. The starter box could've been Eldar or Tau or Orks or Nids, but they did DG. So you're still getting more than the Xenos players, even if not everyone likes to play Nurgle. AoS was mostly Khorne vs Stormcast to begin with, but that's changed pretty rapidly over the last couple of years.
Just my thoughts.
Tiberius501 wrote: Tsons don't suck in my mind, even with the smaller number of spells.
A unit of 10 Tsons with a reaper gun and sorcerer come to roughly the same cost as a unit of 5 basic Primaris marines and would demolish the Primaris marines
In your mind...
100 points of Primas Marines are the same as 245 points of Rubrics.
TS are good.
The same points cost of Primas Marines, which have double the wounds, longer range, and faster move speed, would get demolished. You realize that even if the Rubrics wound them at the same rate Rubrics still lose because they would have to do double the damage they do.
A unit of 10 Tsons with a reaper gun and sorcerer come to roughly the same cost as a unit of 5 basic Primaris marines and would demolish the Primaris marines.
Thebiggesthat wrote: Thousand Sons will get a codex, that will give them bonuses. If you are seriously suggesting that the rules you have on release day are as good as it gets for Tzeench, you are in for a suprise.
OMG I almost died laughing. You mean those gakky destiny dice, which take almost no thought to implament? Or thr fact it took them a year and a half to get around to fixing the problem. Maybe your sitting on information that we dont have yet. I hope you are other wise im definitly fethed.
You were half wrong, Khorne player are ecstatic. Slaanesh players are pretty happy (assualt 3). DG players are mad they are losing some of the more iconic units. I am mad because my Sorcerer army want as few sorcerer as possible.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Yea its not like Chaos got KDK, Renegade/chaos knights, Tzeench/Thousand Sons, Traitor Legions, Death Guard...
Clearly nothing
You being ironic here?
KDK doesn't exist in 8th edition
Thousand Sons got ALL special rules removed, they're basically exactly the same as Space Marines, but worse, because space marines DO have special rules
Traitor Legions - got removed
Death Guard - got nerfed into the ground, It lost Fearless, which is HUGE in 8th edition (Space Marines got to keep their fearless)
Positive being RAPTORS ARE AWESOME NOW, they made raptors great, that is what keeps me away from being angry with this update, it's not all bad news for Chaos
JNAProductions wrote: Clearly, the solution is, then, to say "Well, sucks to suck, guess we never get special rules unless we're Space Marines."
Or, you know, maybe GW should give EVERYONE cool and special rules.
I think the problem comes down to how players see themselves.
GW don't stop repeating how "Chaos is the big bad!" so when Chaos are treated equally bad as other non-space marine factions they feel they are more entitled to receive new kits, etc... and when they receive those they aren't enough because they aren't as much as Space Marines!
As a xenos player obviously I'll love for a less Space-Marine centric 40k.
But thats not what 40k is about. The protagonists of Warhammer 40k are Space Marines. Thats a fact. The rest of the Imperium are here just to be addons to the Space Marines narrative, and complete races like Tyranids and Orks are just here to be the NPC race for the Space Marines.
Is just being realistic. I don't go saying that Action Man receives all the atention, and call for more attention and toys for Doctor X. Because thats isn't how that "setting" is constructed.
Well it depends on which Xenos you are:
Tau kinda suffered a hit
Tyranids got hugely powerful in this edition, they have fearless now with synapse, basically a lowly Termagant unit can hold it's own vs Chaos Marines, or a Tervigon is actually capable of killing a Chaos Demon Prince in 1 go.
Necrons have ABSURD levels of survivability, much better than in 7th ed, leagues above anything their point price
You said we know it for a fact we will get a codex soon. We don't. We know we will get one eventually but you're making assumptions and calling it facts.
It thought we only had Alternative Facts here in America, but apparently not.
It was mentioned at Warhammerfest, by the GW team. Already written, being playtested as we speak, with a group telecon every sunday for 4 hours going over balance. Released ' in a short space of time'
We know there is a primarch. and at least two units. It's obvious.
You don't want to back up your pant wetting with some hard cash, that's fine
Lasgun-strength shooting with shotgun range, since apparently the 4e shooting profile was too good or so.
On...what? Cultists? Who have free autoguns that are literally lasguns?
What in tarnation...
Compared to 7th, Cultists got worse. Instead of paying 4ppm and 1 for autoguns, we now pay 5ppm and can switch out our autoguns. And personally, I genuinely always preferred the CCW/pistol combo. They were never gonna outshoot anything.
Currently, a Cultist costs 25% more than a Guardsman, can't receive orders, has worse saves and LD, and has worse options, especially after we lost Marks... but hey, we can pay 75pt for a Dark Apostle to babysit them. Sure, Cultists can benefit from other character bubbles... but those are better spent on literally any other unit.
I complained about this discrepancy in 7th, and I'll keep complaining until GW makes them them the correctly costed rabble they're meant to play from a game design POV.
Bar depth, I think this is the only genuine complaint I have about the Chaos Index for now.
Edit - I'm also very apprehensive of Obliterators.
Poly Ranger wrote: It's not the same baseline infantry. See Grimmor's post above yours. Cultists cannot achieve what Guard can, as they do not have the same equipment or orders. To ensure there is a balanced game, you cannot have units which are objectively better costing less than the other unit. That goes against the concept of balance.
If you bothered reading my entire post you'd know that I was taking hypothetically. If the Cultists were either made to be identical to Guardsmen OR balanced against the Guardsmen, it'd instead cause an inbalance in the rules overall. Looking at a single unit in a complete vacuum without consideration of the larger faction as a whole is a fallacy a lot of people have on this forum. One of the things with Guard is that they don't have all-rounder elite infantry like Space Marines; the closest are Scions which are really expensive for what they bring to the field and not all that flexible (try putting one in fisticuffs with a space marine and see how that turns out).
It sucks to play more, yes, but looking at another faction and demanding you have the same thing while not looking at what you already have in your faction is silly and selfish. If every faction had every unit balanced against each other, the only possible way it could work out is if every faction was functionally identical (i.e: there would be only one faction) with only minor tweaks.
If you'd then continued to read a few posts down you would have realised that I addressed that point with the fact that IG have access to SM very easily with allied detachments so that completely negates that point anyway. So in otherwords, NOT looking at it in a vacuum but from a rather wider perspective than yours which only considers a single faction by itself rather than what it has access to. Go back and read it if you like.
And can we keep the personal insults out of this please? A disagreement on balance does not give you the right to start calling people selfish. CSM is my joint 3rd army after BA and Renegades, joint with Necrons, so it's not like I am hugely biased here.
Btw I would like to add - I am not complaining about 'Chaos getting nothing' here. I am aware the codexes will add flavour. I merely saw a point and commented on it, as I believe if you price a unit that is objectively in everyway better than another unit for cheaper, it goes against balance in a game like 40kwhere allies exist.
Lasgun-strength shooting with shotgun range, since apparently the 4e shooting profile was too good or so.
On...what? Cultists? Who have free autoguns that are literally lasguns?
What in tarnation...
Compared to 7th, Cultists got worse. Instead of paying 4ppm and 1 for autoguns, we now pay 5ppm and can switch out our autoguns. And personally, I genuinely always preferred the CCW/pistol combo. They were never gonna outshoot anything.
Currently, a Cultist costs 25% more than a Guardsman, can't receive orders, has worse saves and LD, and has worse options, especially after we lost Marks... but hey, we can pay 75pt for a Dark Apostle to babysit them. Sure, Cultists can benefit from other character bubbles... but those are better spent on literally any other unit.
I complained about this discrepancy in 7th, and I'll keep complaining until GW makes them them the correctly costed rabble they're meant to play from a game design POV.
Bar depth, I think this is the only genuine complaint I have about the Chaos Index for now.
Actually Cultists got buffed if you have someone to baby sit them and not run away
With the way wounding now works, T3 is pretty much equivalent to T4, as S4-5 weapons will be wounding you on a 3+
So we basically got a free Nurgles mark on them
They also hit T5 units on a 5+, which is a 2x probability improvement, so 10 Cultists can now contest 3 Bikers no problem when fighting for objectives and they do cost less
Then again, Guardsmen get to benefit from this as well so in relation to them, Cultists did get weaker, but they're overall better of than in 7th ed
Lasgun-strength shooting with shotgun range, since apparently the 4e shooting profile was too good or so.
On...what? Cultists? Who have free autoguns that are literally lasguns?
What in tarnation...
Compared to 7th, Cultists got worse. Instead of paying 4ppm and 1 for autoguns, we now pay 5ppm and can switch out our autoguns. And personally, I genuinely always preferred the CCW/pistol combo. They were never gonna outshoot anything.
Currently, a Cultist costs 25% more than a Guardsman, can't receive orders, has worse saves and LD, and has worse options, especially after we lost Marks... but hey, we can pay 75pt for a Dark Apostle to babysit them. Sure, Cultists can benefit from other character bubbles... but those are better spent on literally any other unit.
I complained about this discrepancy in 7th, and I'll keep complaining until GW makes them them the correctly costed rabble they're meant to play from a game design POV.
Bar depth, I think this is the only genuine complaint I have about the Chaos Index for now.
Actually Cultists got buffed if you have someone to baby sit them and not run away
With the way wounding now works, T3 is pretty much equivalent to T4, as S4-5 weapons will be wounding you on a 3+
So we basically got a free Nurgles mark on them
They also hit T5 units on a 5+, which is a 2x probability improvement, so 10 Cultists can now contest 3 Bikers no problem when fighting for objectives and they do cost less
Then again, Guardsmen get to benefit from this as well so in relation to them, Cultists did get weaker, but they're overall better of than in 7th ed
Tbf, everyone got this buff. Marines for example only get wounded by st 6 and 7 on a 5+ and only need a 5+ to wound a T6 or 7. Same with every other unit for comparative values. So if everyone gets the buff then that means no-one (overall) gets more powerful because of that compared to somebody else.
Personally this doesn't affect me as I always use any cultists as Renegades anyway - so I have no vested interest in this.
Actually Cultists got buffed if you have someone to baby sit them and not run away
With the way wounding now works, T3 is pretty much equivalent to T4, as S4-5 weapons will be wounding you on a 3+
So we basically got a free Nurgles mark on them
They also hit T5 units on a 5+, which is a 2x probability improvement, so 10 Cultists can now contest 3 Bikers no problem when fighting for objectives and they do cost less
Then again, Guardsmen get to benefit from this as well so in relation to them, Cultists did get weaker, but they're overall better of than in 7th ed
That's the point though - IG got the exact same buff, and they are the logical comparison, yet are better in almost every conceivable way. I don't fancy spending a minimum of 75 points and an HQ slot on a Dark Apostle to avoid losing a few Cultists every turn.
And my Cultists largely went up by 25%, so the rule changes to Toughness were at least partially priced in.
Poly Ranger wrote: If you'd then continued to read a few posts down you would have realised that I addressed that point with the fact that IG have access to SM very easily with allied detachments so that completely negates that point anyway. So in otherwords, NOT looking at it in a vacuum but from a rather wider perspective than yours which only considers a single faction by itself rather than what it has access to. Go back and read it if you like.
And can we keep the personal insults out of this please? A disagreement on balance does not give you the right to start calling people selfish. CSM is my joint 3rd army after BA and Renegades, joint with Necrons, so it's not like I am hugely biased here.
Btw I would like to add - I am not complaining about 'Chaos getting nothing' here. I am aware the codexes will add flavour. I merely saw a point and commented on it, as I believe if you price a unit that is objectively in everyway better than another unit for cheaper, it goes against balance in a game like 40kwhere allies exist.
Ran into this over the weekend, had 3 games against SM and 2 of them took the same thing 3 units of bare bones guardsman, 1 company commander, 1 lord commissar. Got 3 extra command points and plenty of chaff wounds for me to deal with. The Commissar prevented me from killing 6-7 and the rest running so had to kill 9 in each squad. Lasgun fire is a thing now if you didn't know.
The lost of the bolt guns is noticeable. Remember now you can use it at melee XD.
Also intercessors are fairly better than plague marines. Plague marines hace T5 and feel no pain. Intercessors have better morale resistance (important since plagues lost fearless), the double of wounds (huge), more range on weapons, they are faster and their weapons are ap-1.
Ah, and they can be from any chapter meanwhile plague marines only can be from death guard. A death guard that lost access to some of best chaos units: no fiends, no havoc, no bikes, no termis, no chosen.....
And the new poxwalkers and drones are bad hahaha
So the most powerful infantry chaos unit (beside termis) and "the new toy" are worst than the most basic primaris Hahahaha.
Tsons also got nerfed on the way that the unit sorcerers are terrible bad. An important point tax that is nearly useless since only know an odd version of smite. The less sorcerers a tsons army have, the better it works.... Sad
AnomanderRake wrote: ...Why would Chaos be getting nothing? Chaos is getting a load of things. PotMS. Price drops. Vastly cheaper MCs. Non-psychic shooting attacks on Daemons. Terminators that aren't forced to spend twenty points on a powerfist (grr). Hellchickens with the power to flutter around mangling aircraft/skimmers. A bonus Fight phase a turn for Berzerker units.
Lasgun-strength shooting with shotgun range, since apparently the 4e shooting profile was too good or so.
Terminators lost the ability to be fielded in units of 3, and the new DS restrictions will hurt their old Termicide use altogether; what's the point of using them to disrupt an opponent's plan when an entire denial grid can be strung out so easily?
Bikes lost the ability to field both pistols and close combat weapons: it's now either a pistol or a chainsword.
Helchickens...had that power and then some. They did "gain" as the ability to serve as a character-sniper.
Forgefiends lost their ability to move-and-fire.
The real winner fwiw would be Noise Marines due to their ability to keep shooting, and Sonic Blasters becoming Assault again.
And dont forget, Pink Horrors are now terrible Psykers, as they cast on 1 dice.
Franarok wrote: The lost of the bolt guns is noticeable. Remember now you can use it at melee XD.
Also intercessors are fairly better than plague marines. Plague marines hace T5 and feel no pain. Intercessors have better morale resistance (important since plagues lost fearless), the double of wounds (huge), more range on weapons, they are faster and their weapons are ap-1.
Ah, and they can be from any chapter meanwhile plague marines only can be from death guard. A death guard that lost access to some of best chaos units: no fiends, no havoc, no bikes, no termis, no chosen.....
And the new poxwalkers and drones are bad hahaha
So the most powerful infantry chaos unit (beside termis) and "the new toy" are worst than the most basic primaris Hahahaha.
Tsons also got nerfed on the way that the unit sorcerers are terrible bad. An important point tax that is nearly useless since only know an odd version of smite. The less sorcerers a tsons army have, the better it works.... Sad
Yeah, that is kinda ridiculous, I get that the new Primaris Marines should have better stats, that's all understandable, but why do the COST LESS?
That is really, really ridiculous, an Intercessor is in every regard better than a Plague Marine, T5 means way, way less in this edition than the previous one, so in a sense, the Plague Marines got nerfed, while SM got an Ubermarine, that is a WTF moment indeed.
Besides good Raptors this edition on release is a huge tragedy for Chaos, near everything got relatively worse, the new stuff is pretty pathetic as well, Blight Drone would likely die to simple Guardsmen fire, come to think of it, so would Plague Marines since 1 PM = 5 Guardsmen... So it would be 5 PM vs 16 Guardsmen and 2 Autocannon crews, absolutely no chance
Heh I actually did the math on just how bad they'd lose to Guardsmen, if non considering morale shenanigans more than half the Guardsmen would survive the encounter, that's also assuming both start in range of each other and Guardsmen don't get a few free shots in with the Autocannons before Plague Marines get in range
Points wise Plague Marines are one of the worst units in game
Question here. Reading peoples posts here, I noticed that a lot are saying that codexes are coming out. Is that true?
Because at the moment, csm are like a steak with no salt or pepper on them.
^^ Following simulation is the worst case scenario for the Guardsmen
Realistically you'd have them placed to receive cover and utilise their much longer range, due to the Autocannons, that would force Plague marines to move in
In that scenario Guardsmen trade wounds 1 for 1
Meaning you'd only lose less than a quarter of your guardsmen to kill a Plague marine squad, making the 5X more cost efective
That's not even considering that them being 2 units you can have 2 objectives covered
This begs the question - WHAT CAN'T the Emperors Sledgehammer destroy if counted per point basis
You'd easily wreck Landraiders with Guardsmen for the same pricetag, they're now great vs everything
I liked Astra Militarum before, but damn, now I'm surely enlisting
Aaaand dont forget guardsmen are cheaper than cultist!!!!! xDDDDDD
Now that any imperial can put any imperial unit....they give marines their own improved cultists xD
And yup, GW said chaos will get their super toys (guys really improved by gods). And they give us the plague marines (well, actually not new unit, just a nerfed version of an existen one).
And then you notice that our most expensive unit (beside terminators) and supposely the stronger one...is worst tan the basic primaris marines.... and that the primaris unit cost less!!!
An army of primaris marines with green paint and some green stuff conversions represents better a Nurgle army: an army of few miniatures of big guys, with grear T and wounds and specialist jobs.
But damn, and people wonder why msot chaos players complains? This is close the insult hahaha. And that when after years asking finally give the legions....BOOM, they quit them haha
But hey, all the imperium armies can mix so they can use the most point efective from each one.
The lasguns aren't doing that much, though. It's the 2 autocannons that are doing the heavy lifting, and PMs are more of a CC unit. The PMs should just advance and chop up the nasty Guardsmen. That equation looks like this in CC, with both units (hypothetically) at full strength:
There's also Morale checks, where the Guardsmen are at a much higher risk from losing more.
At ranged combat, Death to the False Emperor and the Plague Knife re-rolls don't come into play. In CC, they do, plus they remove the autocannon wounds.
The lasguns aren't doing that much, though. It's the 2 autocannons that are doing the heavy lifting, and PMs are more of a CC unit. The PMs should just advance and chop up the nasty Guardsmen. That equation looks like this in CC, with both units (hypothetically) at full strength:
There's also Morale checks, where the Guardsmen are at a much higher risk from losing more.
At ranged combat, Death to the False Emperor and the Plague Knife re-rolls don't come into play. In CC, they do, plus they remove the autocannon wounds.
True, but that's assuming they somehow come into contact and that's a huge IF
Because even if they both start 24'' from each other (which you wouldn't do if you had Autocannons) they still need to either move 2 turns or advance and for go shooting in the best case scenario
Meaning they engage at half the strength, while the guardsmen at most lost an autocannon (since knowing that CC is going to happen you'd allocate the wound first on that unit)
So that would be 2-3 Plague Marines vs 16 Guardsmen, where again - they'd have 0 chance of coming on top, though admittedly, more guardsmen would die, but if one squad gets wiped out, remember the other is close enough to rapid fire
There is no realistic situation where Plague Marines come on top of Guardsmen
"There is no realistic situation where Plague Marines come on top of Guardsmen"
And that is pretty sad xD
Well I guess that with Traitor Legions book the chaos space marines were no more the worst or near the worst army.... So now GW needed to nerf them.
Also looks like on this edition they planned some kind of huge campaing of imperium vs chao. So they need the imperium to win. That explains because new primaris are better than anything we have.
No mention that the guards are cheaper than cultist, they nerfed the obliterators meanwhile centurions still are good, they give even more vehicles (because imoerium just have 498249284 more kind of vehicles....and it must be 99999999999 more xD), the new "magic" is so bland, the summoning is gone (ok old could be op...buto mg, now is **** xD), the marks are gone (because they cant allow chaos bikers were more hard to kill than loyals or us could have some versatility), possesed stil lare bad (and never wil lbe good hahaha), etc etc....
Franarok wrote: "There is no realistic situation where Plague Marines come on top of Guardsmen"
And that is pretty sad xD
Well I guess that with Traitor Legions book the chaos space marines were not the worst or near the orst codex.... So now GW needed to nerf them
Also looks like on this edition they planned some kind of huge campaing of imperium vs chao. So they need the imperium to win. That explains because new primaris are better than anything we have xD
True that
Basically it's a "Zombie Apocalypse" type of scenario, where Plague Marines are target practice dummies
Also, that's when looking at them in isolation, in a real game scenario they'd also have orders thrown at them, meaning they could each fire 4 shots in close range, so realistically Plague marines wouldn't even reach them
That entire scenario is silly though. You are comparing poorly outfitted plague guard with guardsman with heavy weapons. Yes the points are the same, but if you do two other similarly equipped squads, say plague marines with blight launchers vs 3 squads of guardsman with grenade launchers and a bolter on the sarge (both 138 points) you'd have the guardsman putting out around a wound per turn still, and the marines putting out 3.1111.
Or we can compare 120 points of basic guardsman to 120 points of noise marines with sonic blasters. 1.6 wounds vs 5.3 wounds a turn.
Sure the guardsmen could be getting orders, and the marines could be getting buffed by an HQ as well.
Basically the point I'm making is we don't even know what the most cost effective loadout for each unit is, picking random point values doesn't illustrate all that much truth be told.
SilverAlien wrote: That entire scenario is silly though. You are comparing poorly outfitted plague guard with guardsman with heavy weapons. Yes the points are the same, but if you do two other similarly equipped squads, say plague marines with blight launchers vs 3 squads of guardsman with grenade launchers and a bolter on the sarge (both 138 points) you'd have the guardsman putting out around a wound per turn still, and the marines putting out 2.666.
Or we can compare 120 points of basic guardsman to 120 points of noise marines with sonic blasters. 1.6 wounds vs 5.3 wounds a turn.
Sure the guardsmen could be getting orders, and the marines could be getting buffed by an HQ as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That entire scenario is silly though. You are comparing poorly outfitted plague guard with guardsman with heavy weapons. Yes the points are the same, but if you do two other similarly equipped squads, say plague marines with blight launchers vs 3 squads of guardsman with grenade launchers and a bolter on the sarge (both 138 points) you'd have the guardsman putting out around a wound per turn still, and the marines putting out 2.666.
Or we can compare 120 points of basic guardsman to 120 points of noise marines with sonic blasters. 1.6 wounds vs 5.3 wounds a turn.
Sure the guardsmen could be getting orders, and the marines could be getting buffed by an HQ as well.
Basically the point I'm making is we don't even know what the most cost effective loadout for each unit is, picking random point values doesn't illustrate all that much truth be told.
The lasguns aren't doing that much, though. It's the 2 autocannons that are doing the heavy lifting, and PMs are more of a CC unit. The PMs should just advance and chop up the nasty Guardsmen. That equation looks like this in CC, with both units (hypothetically) at full strength:
There's also Morale checks, where the Guardsmen are at a much higher risk from losing more.
At ranged combat, Death to the False Emperor and the Plague Knife re-rolls don't come into play. In CC, they do, plus they remove the autocannon wounds.
True, but that's assuming they somehow come into contact and that's a huge IF
Because even if they both start 24'' from each other (which you wouldn't do if you had Autocannons) they still need to either move 2 turns or advance and for go shooting in the best case scenario
Meaning they engage at half the strength, while the guardsmen at most lost an autocannon (since knowing that CC is going to happen you'd allocate the wound first on that unit)
So that would be 2-3 Plague Marines vs 16 Guardsmen, where again - they'd have 0 chance of coming on top, though admittedly, more guardsmen would die, but if one squad gets wiped out, remember the other is close enough to rapid fire
There is no realistic situation where Plague Marines come on top of Guardsmen
In this given scenario, yes. But also, as others mention, the Plague Marines are equipped in a truly sub-par manner, whereas the IG are equipped optimally for dealing with them.
SilverAlien wrote: That entire scenario is silly though. You are comparing poorly outfitted plague guard with guardsman with heavy weapons. Yes the points are the same, but if you do two other similarly equipped squads, say plague marines with blight launchers vs 3 squads of guardsman with grenade launchers and a bolter on the sarge (both 138 points) you'd have the guardsman putting out around a wound per turn still, and the marines putting out 2.666.
Or we can compare 120 points of basic guardsman to 120 points of noise marines with sonic blasters. 1.6 wounds vs 5.3 wounds a turn.
Sure the guardsmen could be getting orders, and the marines could be getting buffed by an HQ as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That entire scenario is silly though. You are comparing poorly outfitted plague guard with guardsman with heavy weapons. Yes the points are the same, but if you do two other similarly equipped squads, say plague marines with blight launchers vs 3 squads of guardsman with grenade launchers and a bolter on the sarge (both 138 points) you'd have the guardsman putting out around a wound per turn still, and the marines putting out 2.666.
Or we can compare 120 points of basic guardsman to 120 points of noise marines with sonic blasters. 1.6 wounds vs 5.3 wounds a turn.
Sure the guardsmen could be getting orders, and the marines could be getting buffed by an HQ as well.
Basically the point I'm making is we don't even know what the most cost effective loadout for each unit is, picking random point values doesn't illustrate all that much truth be told.
The voice of reason enters the fray.
Heh, you call that voice of reason, however if you checked the weapon profiles available to Plague Marines, you'd see that paying points for something like a Blight Launcher is the most terrible choice you can make
If you did that, you'd be facing 3 squads of Guardsmen and 1 Autocannon, the Blight Launcher does multiple wounds, all irrelevant when fighting opponents with one wound. Sure you'd reliably kill 1 more guardsman per turn, but you'd have to deal with 50% more of them.
So both of you actually found an even worse loadout for the Plague Marines to bring than their default one.
As much as I like the new models, this is the worst unit in game in terms of efficiency/price ratio
So next time when you invoke such words like "voice of reason", be sure to double check the reality of the matter
You're missing the point. The point is that if you only compare the wrong weapon for the job you can get any results you want, and the points don't matter. And when someone calls out that bull, it's a voice of reason. But thanks for illustrating the point by shifting out some weapons on the enemy crew to better fit your narrative.
SilverAlien wrote: That entire scenario is silly though. You are comparing poorly outfitted plague guard with guardsman with heavy weapons. Yes the points are the same, but if you do two other similarly equipped squads, say plague marines with blight launchers vs 3 squads of guardsman with grenade launchers and a bolter on the sarge (both 138 points) you'd have the guardsman putting out around a wound per turn still, and the marines putting out 3.1111.
Or we can compare 120 points of basic guardsman to 120 points of noise marines with sonic blasters. 1.6 wounds vs 5.3 wounds a turn.
Sure the guardsmen could be getting orders, and the marines could be getting buffed by an HQ as well.
Basically the point I'm making is we don't even know what the most cost effective loadout for each unit is, picking random point values doesn't illustrate all that much truth be told.
We do know the possible loadouts and Plague Marines lack the choice to bring heavy weapons, blight launcher having a measly 24 range and just 2 hits, doesn't make it a weapon worth it's price
Please do conceive a loadout where they can come on top of Guardsmen, blight launchers are a terrible idea
In case of Noise Marines, heh they're 25% cheaper than Plague Marines and have better weapon choices, they're nowhere near as terrible and yet, you did the math and you can see yourself - they'd be dead in 3-4 turns, while at least 1 of the 3 Guardsmen squads would survive
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Purifier wrote: You're missing the point. The point is that if you only compare the wrong weapon for the job you can get any results you want, and the points don't matter. And when someone calls out that bull, it's a voice of reason. But thanks for illustrating the point by shifting out some weapons on the enemy crew to better fit your narrative.
Again, you try to dodge the fact that you didn't make research by going for an ad hominem attack, also you're IMPLYING I took the wrong weapon for the job, while none of you could offer a better one, the only alternative you guys have given was actually worse than my initial one
Facts remain:
1) Plague Marines have more limited choices of wargear
2) They do't have ANY long range weaponry
Regardless of how you build them - they are an inferior choice, arguably the worst unit in game points wise
SilverAlien wrote: That entire scenario is silly though. You are comparing poorly outfitted plague guard with guardsman with heavy weapons. Yes the points are the same, but if you do two other similarly equipped squads, say plague marines with blight launchers vs 3 squads of guardsman with grenade launchers and a bolter on the sarge (both 138 points) you'd have the guardsman putting out around a wound per turn still, and the marines putting out 3.1111.
Or we can compare 120 points of basic guardsman to 120 points of noise marines with sonic blasters. 1.6 wounds vs 5.3 wounds a turn.
Sure the guardsmen could be getting orders, and the marines could be getting buffed by an HQ as well.
Basically the point I'm making is we don't even know what the most cost effective loadout for each unit is, picking random point values doesn't illustrate all that much truth be told.
This is not reassuring!
I don't understand the focus on absolute numbers of wounds. Both of your comparisons that seem to be intended to show how the Guardsmen can be at a disadvantage actually seem to show them holding their own. I'm not very familiar with what Chaos has, but I think you've got 5 Plague Marines in the first case and 5 Noise Marines in the second, up against 30 Guardsmen each time. So in your first example the Guardsmen would kill 20% of the Marines in one volley while the Marines only kill 9.6% of the Guardsmen. In your second example the Guardsmen kill 32% of the Noise Marines while the Noise Marines kill 18% of the Guardsmen. The Guardsmen are kicking ass despite your attempt to rig the game against them.
Now, like I said, I don't know much about Chaos and I'm not trying to defend the position that they're all-in-all underpowered now or whatever, but you seem to be trying to show that they can hold their own with these examples, when these examples really show Chaos getting whipped.
SilverAlien wrote: That entire scenario is silly though. You are comparing poorly outfitted plague guard with guardsman with heavy weapons. Yes the points are the same, but if you do two other similarly equipped squads, say plague marines with blight launchers vs 3 squads of guardsman with grenade launchers and a bolter on the sarge (both 138 points) you'd have the guardsman putting out around a wound per turn still, and the marines putting out 3.1111.
Or we can compare 120 points of basic guardsman to 120 points of noise marines with sonic blasters. 1.6 wounds vs 5.3 wounds a turn.
Sure the guardsmen could be getting orders, and the marines could be getting buffed by an HQ as well.
Basically the point I'm making is we don't even know what the most cost effective loadout for each unit is, picking random point values doesn't illustrate all that much truth be told.
We do know the possible loadouts and Plague Marines lack the choice to bring heavy weapons, blight launcher having a measly 24 range and just 2 hits, doesn't make it a weapon worth it's price
Please do conceive a loadout where they can come on top of Guardsmen, blight launchers are a terrible idea
In case of Noise Marines, heh they're 25% cheaper than Plague Marines and have better weapon choices, they're nowhere near as terrible and yet, you did the math and you can see yourself - they'd be dead in 3-4 turns, while at least 1 of the 3 Guardsmen squads would survive
Also if we're changing units around, you could take 3 Heavy bolter teams for under 120 points, meaning 9 Heavy bolters, which would do 4.45 wounds per turn, at longer range, meaning there is a good chance they'd all be dead before they even got in range
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Purifier wrote: You're missing the point. The point is that if you only compare the wrong weapon for the job you can get any results you want, and the points don't matter. And when someone calls out that bull, it's a voice of reason. But thanks for illustrating the point by shifting out some weapons on the enemy crew to better fit your narrative.
Again, you try to dodge the fact that you didn't make research by going for an ad hominem attack, also you're IMPLYING I took the wrong weapon for the job, while none of you could offer a better one, the only alternative you guys have given was actually worse than my initial one
Facts remain:
1) Plague Marines have more limited choices of wargear
2) They do't have ANY long range weaponry
Regardless of how you build them - they are an inferior choice, arguably the worst unit in game points wise
5 stock plague marines with stock deal 1.4 wounds per turn to guardsman, 2.8 in RF range. Cost: 110 points.
5 plague marines, 2 with blight launchers deal 3.6 wounds per turn to guardsman, 4.4 in rapid fire range. Cost 138 points. (Which isn't even a 25% increase in points, idk why someone claimed a 50% increase).
You are capable of seeing that the latter option is better, even if the blight launcher isn't benefitting from multiple wounds, right? It doubles out the guardsman, wounding on a 2+, rerolls 1s, and ignores armor saves. It results in almost twice as many kills at both ranges for a 25% increase in the cost of the unit. It's the better loadout which is more likely to earn points back, in part because it can threaten morale tests.
You are correct in that guard aren't a good match up for plague marines (toughness 5 won't help against str 3 is the biggest issue). That's why I pointed at noise marines, who are much better at clearing normal infantry.
SilverAlien wrote: That entire scenario is silly though. You are comparing poorly outfitted plague guard with guardsman with heavy weapons. Yes the points are the same, but if you do two other similarly equipped squads, say plague marines with blight launchers vs 3 squads of guardsman with grenade launchers and a bolter on the sarge (both 138 points) you'd have the guardsman putting out around a wound per turn still, and the marines putting out 3.1111.
Or we can compare 120 points of basic guardsman to 120 points of noise marines with sonic blasters. 1.6 wounds vs 5.3 wounds a turn.
Sure the guardsmen could be getting orders, and the marines could be getting buffed by an HQ as well.
Basically the point I'm making is we don't even know what the most cost effective loadout for each unit is, picking random point values doesn't illustrate all that much truth be told.
This is not reassuring!
I don't understand the focus on absolute numbers of wounds. Both of your comparisons that seem to be intended to show how the Guardsmen can be at a disadvantage actually seem to show them holding their own. I'm not very familiar with what Chaos has, but I think you've got 5 Plague Marines in the first case and 5 Noise Marines in the second, up against 30 Guardsmen each time. So in your first example the Guardsmen would kill 20% of the Marines in one volley while the Marines only kill 9.6% of the Guardsmen. In your second example the Guardsmen kill 32% of the Noise Marines while the Noise Marines kill 18% of the Guardsmen. The Guardsmen are kicking ass despite your attempt to rig the game against them.
Now, like I said, I don't know much about Chaos and I'm not trying to defend the position that they're all-in-all underpowered now or whatever, but you seem to be trying to show that they can hold their own with these examples, when these examples really show Chaos getting whipped.
Thank you for being able to Math, it is exactly like you said
5 stock plague marines with stock deal 1.4 wounds per turn to guardsman, 2.8 in RF range. Cost: 110 points.
5 plague marines, 2 with blight launchers deal 3.6 wounds per turn to guardsman, 4.4 in rapid fire range. Cost 138 points. (Which isn't even a 25% increase in points, idk why someone claimed a 50% increase).
You are capable of seeing that the latter option is better, even if the blight launcher isn't benefitting from multiple wounds, right? It doubles out the guardsman, wounding on a 2+, rerolls 1s, and ignores armor saves. It's the better loadout which is more likely to earn points back, in part because it can threaten morale tests.
Latter option means a 50% increase NOT in the PM cost, but a 50% increase in he number of Guardsmen that turn up to oppose you do to more points available
So in the first scenario it's 5 stock PM vs 20 Guardsmen (2 Autocannons)
In the second it's 5 PM (2 Blight Launchers) vs 30 Guardsmen
So even if you kill more of them - there's significantly more of them there to shoot back at you
Again, you try to dodge the fact that you didn't make research by going for an ad hominem attack
Ad hominem means to attack you instead of the argument. How exactly did I attack you? I talked only about the argument. If I said "Sure, but then Dovis is known to never have a clear head when talking about statistics" then that would be an ad hominem.
Again, you try to dodge the fact that you didn't make research by going for an ad hominem attack
Ad hominem means to attack you instead of the argument. How exactly did I attack you? I talked only about the argument. If I said "Sure, but then Dovis is known to never have a clear head when talking about statistics" then that would be an ad hominem.
You said that I missed the point, when the whole "missing the point" argument stands on the false premise that I deliberately chose an inferior loadout to illustrate a weakness when no one so far offered a better loadout
Which was factored in, you will still kill a far greater number and make a bigger dent in the points, making it a more efficient loadout. Yes it's generally not a great match up regardless, but the example you gave was the plague marines having a bad loadout.a 25% increase in points for a 100% increase in lethality is almost always a good choice.
I'm basically saying don't exaggerate the problem. Yes a problem exists (and tbh it's mostly with guard, noise marines compare favorably to their equivalents in the Imperial SM index)
SilverAlien wrote: Which was factored in, you will still kill a far greater number and make a bigger dent in the points, making it a more efficient loadout. Yes it's generally not a great match up regardless, but the example you gave was the plague marines having a bad loadout.a 25% increase in points for a 100% increase in lethality is almost always a good choice.
I'm basically saying don't exaggerate the problem. Yes a problem exists (and tbh it's mostly with guard, noise marines compare favorably to their equivalents in the Imperial SM index)
True, taking the blight launchers should still be the default choice, If one is to take the Plague Marines
Poxwalkers are also no less horrible, 4 move, no shooting and a hit on 5+ and a COST OF 6, oh my god, what were they thinking when pricing them, like what is their role, they don't even work as cheap bullet sponges
The Fetid-Bload Drone is the least bad in terms of cost and efficiency
At least Typhus got buffed real good and his price slashed, that's the only good thing in 8th ed DG
So in context of the rest of DG, Plague Marines might seem ok
SilverAlien wrote:Which was factored in, you will still kill a far greater number and make a bigger dent in the points, making it a more efficient loadout. Yes it's generally not a great match up regardless, but the example you gave was the plague marines having a bad loadout.a 25% increase in points for a 100% increase in lethality is almost always a good choice.
I'm basically saying don't exaggerate the problem. Yes a problem exists (and tbh it's mostly with guard, noise marines compare favorably to their equivalents in the Imperial SM index)
Its a non issue. Play the scenario like a normal person would that has some understanding of the game. Blight launchers have a 24" range the Plague marines don't gain by getting closer and why would you position yourself so you can get shot at by both guardsman units? Why would you not stand in cover 24" away and chunk out 3-4 guys a turn while losing MAYBE 1 guy a turn, most of the guardsman would be dead before you got to the last Plague Marine.
Dovis wrote:True, taking the blight launchers should still be the default choice, If one is to take the Plague Marines
Poxwalkers are also no less horrible, 4 move, no shooting and a hit on 5+ and a COST OF 6, oh my god, what were they thinking when pricing them, like what is their role, they don't even work as cheap bullet sponges
The Fetid-Bload Drone is the least bad in terms of cost and efficiency
At least Typhus got buffed real good and his price slashed, that's the only good thing in 8th ed DG
So in context of the rest of DG, Plague Marines might seem ok
Bring the Plague Bell guy and they can advance every turn rolling 2 dice taking the highest. They get +1 to hit on infantry units with more then 10 models, add to their unit every time they kill and infantry model, and are fearless. The only thing I don't understand is why they have a 7+ save
SilverAlien wrote:Which was factored in, you will still kill a far greater number and make a bigger dent in the points, making it a more efficient loadout. Yes it's generally not a great match up regardless, but the example you gave was the plague marines having a bad loadout.a 25% increase in points for a 100% increase in lethality is almost always a good choice.
I'm basically saying don't exaggerate the problem. Yes a problem exists (and tbh it's mostly with guard, noise marines compare favorably to their equivalents in the Imperial SM index)
Its a non issue. Play the scenario like a normal person would that has some understanding of the game. Blight launchers have a 24" range the Plague marines don't gain by getting closer and why would you position yourself so you can get shot at by both guardsman units? Why would you not stand in cover 24" away and chunk out 3-4 guys a turn while losing MAYBE 1 guy a turn, most of the guardsman would be dead before you got to the last Plague Marine.
Dovis wrote:True, taking the blight launchers should still be the default choice, If one is to take the Plague Marines
Poxwalkers are also no less horrible, 4 move, no shooting and a hit on 5+ and a COST OF 6, oh my god, what were they thinking when pricing them, like what is their role, they don't even work as cheap bullet sponges
The Fetid-Bload Drone is the least bad in terms of cost and efficiency
At least Typhus got buffed real good and his price slashed, that's the only good thing in 8th ed DG
So in context of the rest of DG, Plague Marines might seem ok
Bring the Plague Bell guy and they can advance every turn rolling 2 dice taking the highest. They get +1 to hit on infantry units with more then 10 models, add to their unit every time they kill and infantry model, and are fearless. The only thing I don't understand is why they have a 7+ save
You're somehow assuming Plague Marines have any choice of positioning in your scenario, they don't, for 138 Points the PM with Blight Launchers cost, the IG can take 30 troops + 2 Mortars and a Heavy Bolter, they have the range advantage and 1 Plague Marine will be dead till they even get in the 24"
So sure, don't close the range, it will work out just fine...
No, the reality is that the IG will inevitably be the ones with a better position in this matchup
As for the Pox Walkers, all you described would cost ~200 points, for a semi decent melee only bullet sponge, heh you can get 3 Kastelan Robots, who can make 108 shot every turn if they're stationary, 108 S5-6 shots, let that sink in, that's what you can bring for the same amount as those pathetic zombies
Aside from them looking really cool and jolly with their wide smiles, there is little to no reason to take them
I did preorder the set, but just cause of the aesthetics, my current Death Guard list cannot get improved by anything in the set, current "pox walkers" included, who cost just 70 points now and you can resurrect D3 of them every turn, they walk 6" and are T4 without Typhus
SilverAlien wrote: Which was factored in, you will still kill a far greater number and make a bigger dent in the points, making it a more efficient loadout. Yes it's generally not a great match up regardless, but the example you gave was the plague marines having a bad loadout.a 25% increase in points for a 100% increase in lethality is almost always a good choice.
I'm basically saying don't exaggerate the problem. Yes a problem exists (and tbh it's mostly with guard, noise marines compare favorably to their equivalents in the Imperial SM index)
True, taking the blight launchers should still be the default choice, If one is to take the Plague Marines
Poxwalkers are also no less horrible, 4 move, no shooting and a hit on 5+ and a COST OF 6, oh my god, what were they thinking when pricing them, like what is their role, they don't even work as cheap bullet sponges
The Fetid-Bload Drone is the least bad in terms of cost and efficiency
At least Typhus got buffed real good and his price slashed, that's the only good thing in 8th ed DG
So in context of the rest of DG, Plague Marines might seem ok
Eh... the bloat drone is only good in the specific context of killing guardsman. Otherwise it's absurdly expensive for what amounts to two flamers (it's 158 points with equipment). Look at what 2 crisis battlesuits with flamers and advanced targeting can do, with a third suit with a stimulant injector to soak wounds (which only comes to 18 points more than this thing)
Oh and it is also good at killing DG, because once again toughness 5 is wasted points until it takes a good chunk of damage. Honestly toughness 5 vs 4 is so rarely useful now it's not worth anything like the price they put on it. Which is very sad.
SilverAlien wrote: Which was factored in, you will still kill a far greater number and make a bigger dent in the points, making it a more efficient loadout. Yes it's generally not a great match up regardless, but the example you gave was the plague marines having a bad loadout.a 25% increase in points for a 100% increase in lethality is almost always a good choice.
I'm basically saying don't exaggerate the problem. Yes a problem exists (and tbh it's mostly with guard, noise marines compare favorably to their equivalents in the Imperial SM index)
True, taking the blight launchers should still be the default choice, If one is to take the Plague Marines
Poxwalkers are also no less horrible, 4 move, no shooting and a hit on 5+ and a COST OF 6, oh my god, what were they thinking when pricing them, like what is their role, they don't even work as cheap bullet sponges
The Fetid-Bload Drone is the least bad in terms of cost and efficiency
At least Typhus got buffed real good and his price slashed, that's the only good thing in 8th ed DG
So in context of the rest of DG, Plague Marines might seem ok
Eh... the bloat drone is only good in the specific context of killing guardsman. Otherwise it's absurdly expensive for what amounts to two flamers (it's 158 points with equipment). Look at what 2 crisis battlesuits with flamers and advanced targeting can do, with a third suit with a stimulant injector to soak wounds (which only comes to 18 points more than this thing)
Oh and it is also good at killing DG, because once again toughness 5 is wasted points until it takes a good chunk of damage. Honestly toughness 5 vs 4 is so rarely useful now it's not worth anything like the price they put on it. Which is very sad.
Exactly, T5 means very little, the would Primaris marines get is so much better than the T5 Plague marines get
I said that Drone is least terrible new DG units have to offer, doesn't mean it's any good when compared to what else the points can buy. You can bring 2 Kastelan Robots and a 3 Mortars for 157 points, which is a better deal regardless of what you're fighting
That is the problem. They keep the T5 and the feel no pain. but now that means less than before.
They also quit the boltguns (other antilore nerf) and gave a expensive price in points. and thinks (now not sure) they lost the defensive nades....but not sure and cant check the file.
Soooooooooo the intercessors are cheaper in points, are more hard to kill because the extra wound, have better weapons (and can take other weapons beside bolt rifle too), can be part of any chapter (meanwhile PM jsut death guard) and are more fast..... So yeah, the basic primaris marine is better than the new plague marine (the new cool toy for caos to face new marines if you read GW)..............
Perfect GW...perfect xD
Well, primaris are a new line of marines, GW needs sell them haha
Franarok wrote: That is the problem. They keep the T5 and the feel no pain. but now that means less than before.
They also quit the boltguns (other antilore nerf) and gave a expensive price in points. and thinks (now not sure) they lost the defensive nades....but not sure and cant check the file.
Soooooooooo the intercessors are cheaper in points, are more hard to kill because the extra wound, have better weapons (and can take other weapons beside bolt rifle too), can be part of any chapter (meanwhile PM jsut death guard) and are more fast..... So yeah, the basic primaris marine is better than the new plague marine (the new cool toy for caos to face new marines if you read GW)..............
Perfect GW...perfect xD
Well, primaris are a new line of marines, GW needs sell them haha
Intercessor marines cannot take other weapons, they have their standard boltrifle.
And primaris marines aren't very good, keep that in mind, they surely aren't overpowered.
Franarok wrote: That is the problem. They keep the T5 and the feel no pain. but now that means less than before.
They also quit the boltguns (other antilore nerf) and gave a expensive price in points. and thinks (now not sure) they lost the defensive nades....but not sure and cant check the file.
Soooooooooo the intercessors are cheaper in points, are more hard to kill because the extra wound, have better weapons (and can take other weapons beside bolt rifle too), can be part of any chapter (meanwhile PM jsut death guard) and are more fast..... So yeah, the basic primaris marine is better than the new plague marine (the new cool toy for caos to face new marines if you read GW)..............
Perfect GW...perfect xD
Well, primaris are a new line of marines, GW needs sell them haha
Intercessor marines cannot take other weapons, they have their standard boltrifle.
And primaris marines aren't very good, keep that in mind, they surely aren't overpowered.
IMHO it's proably not right to compare plague marines to primaris Marines anyway, both are an elite upgrade of the standard space marine type, but both should be distinct and differant.
BrianDavion wrote: IMHO it's proably not right to compare plague marines to primaris Marines anyway, both are an elite upgrade of the standard space marine type, but both should be distinct and differant.
Why wouldnt we compare them? They are both Elite, upgraded (for durability) versions of their factions base unit, and when you compare the two, the Intercessor pulls ahead. This could be solved by making Plague Marines cheaper, cuz T5 is nowhere near worth what it was, and as such shouldnt cost as much.
Dovis wrote: You're somehow assuming Plague Marines have any choice of positioning in your scenario, they don't, for 138 Points the PM with Blight Launchers cost, the IG can take 30 troops + 2 Mortars and a Heavy Bolter, they have the range advantage and 1 Plague Marine will be dead till they even get in the 24"
So sure, don't close the range, it will work out just fine...
I'm not assuming, I'm going off your own parameters. The IG units have heavy weapons, heavy weapons restrict movement, Plague Marines don't have restricted movement, therefore Plague Marine will have the advantage of being able to more freely. They would also be able to benefit from cover much more easily, which is some thing you totally ignored.
Dovis wrote: No, the reality is that the IG will inevitably be the ones with a better position in this matchup
Because you said and for no other reason.
Dovis wrote: As for the Pox Walkers, all you described would cost ~200 points, for a semi decent melee only bullet sponge, heh you can get 3 Kastelan Robots, who can make 108 shot every turn if they're stationary, 108 S5-6 shots, let that sink in, that's what you can bring for the same amount as those pathetic zombies
What the hell? Kastelan Robots are 65 base the most shots your going to get with them is 24 a turn and half of those would have a 12" range, and they cant move to do that, but again the Plague Marines wouldn't have the advantage of free mobility.
Edit: Okay I see what you did you counted the 3D6 as 6s (never mind the less then 1% chance of that happening) on three 12" weapons which would cost 65+63 128 points for a single model. Which you couldnt get two for 200 points. But even if you could maybe shoot them with your S6 ap-2 shots that you will have. I mean not like 3 units shooting just Blight Launchers could kill him in 1 turn.
Dovis wrote: Aside from them looking really cool and jolly with their wide smiles, there is little to no reason to take them
Try 2 bell guys/ 2 Chaos lords, Plauge Marines with as many Assualt Weapons as you can stick on them you will be able to advance every turn and still shoot with about a 61% hit rate.
Dovis wrote: You're somehow assuming Plague Marines have any choice of positioning in your scenario, they don't, for 138 Points the PM with Blight Launchers cost, the IG can take 30 troops + 2 Mortars and a Heavy Bolter, they have the range advantage and 1 Plague Marine will be dead till they even get in the 24"
So sure, don't close the range, it will work out just fine...
I'm not assuming, I'm going off your own parameters. The IG units have heavy weapons, heavy weapons restrict movement, Plague Marines don't have restricted movement, therefore Plague Marine will have the advantage of being able to more freely. They would also be able to benefit from cover much more easily, which is some thing you totally ignored.
Dovis wrote: No, the reality is that the IG will inevitably be the ones with a better position in this matchup
Because you said and for no other reason.
Dovis wrote: As for the Pox Walkers, all you described would cost ~200 points, for a semi decent melee only bullet sponge, heh you can get 3 Kastelan Robots, who can make 108 shot every turn if they're stationary, 108 S5-6 shots, let that sink in, that's what you can bring for the same amount as those pathetic zombies
What the hell? Kastelan Robots are 65 base the most shots your going to get with them is 24 a turn and half of those would have a 12" range, and they cant move to do that, but again the Plague Marines wouldn't have the advantage of free mobility.
Edit: Okay I see what you did you counted the 3D6 as 6s (never mind the less then 1% chance of that happening) on three 12" weapons which would cost 65+63 128 points for a single model. Which you couldnt get two for 200 points. But even if you could maybe shoot them with your S6 ap-2 shots that you will have. I mean not like 3 units shooting just Blight Launchers could kill him in 1 turn.
Dovis wrote: Aside from them looking really cool and jolly with their wide smiles, there is little to no reason to take them
Try 2 bell guys/ 2 Chaos lords, Plauge Marines with as many Assualt Weapons as you can stick on them you will be able to advance every turn and still shoot with about a 61% hit rate.
How are you not getting that a unit with 48" range will be the one to hit sooner than the one with 24"
You can maneuver however you like, but if you are outranged, you either stay in your cover and get withered down by long range fire or you try to get into range. Who cares that the IG is wielding heavy weapons - they don't have to move, they are already in place to shoot the Plague Marines, they don't even have to be visible to fire the mortars, if you want to analize how this would go in a real serious matchup:
I'd hide my IG behind cover, so they're invisible and you cannot return fire, you'd have to maneuver around cover to even see them, and when you would, all 3 units would rapid fire you, there is a good chance no more than 3-5 IG would die if we did this strategically.
All earlier posts were just math handling and math wise IG dominates, if you include terrain and range, they dominate even more
The situation where you described is simply impossible, because if you hide behind cover - so can IG and they can pepper you with Mortars till you get tired, they don't care, you're not a threat at 48" range
Dovis wrote: How are you not getting that a unit with 48" range will be the one to hit sooner than the one with 24"
I get that what I dont get is how you think they will kill any Plague Marines like that.
Dovis wrote: You can maneuver however you like, but if you are outranged, you either stay in your cover and get withered down by long range fire or you try to get into range. Who cares that the IG is wielding heavy weapons - they don't have to move, they are already in place to shoot the Plague Marines, they don't even have to be visible to fire the mortars, if you want to analize how this would go in a real serious matchup:
Or PM bound from cover to cover while out of range cause you can advance giving you between a 7 and 8 inch move per turn on average which means on the 4th turn the PM could move regular and be within 24", but the IG would be in range of Lasguns at that point. So 3 turns of AC firing will net you 0 kills and 3 turns of Mortar fire nets you 0 kills since the PM have a much better save cause your not an idiot charging an enemy line avoiding cover the whole time. So now PM fire 2.6 rounds to 3 so I'm going with that to keep this simple. 3 hits with Blight Launchers 4 hits with bolters, Blight Launcher Wound guardsman on 2s AND reroll 1s so 3 wounds from Blight Launchers, Guardsman get a 6+ save which amounts to about a .33 chance at getting 1 save so uncommon. Bolters Fire 3 shots, hit with 2, wound with 1, but we will save the IG save it. So the IG lost 3 guys roll a Battle shock test and lose no more. IG shoots now the withering fire of Lasguns which does a total of .16 wounds, oh, that's not going to do much and with the .17 from the auto-cannon AND the .14 from the mortars your not looking good it would take between 3-4 turns to kill 1 guy on average in the mean time your losing on average 3 models a turn. Which means...you would lose 3 models and kill all 3 units of Guardsman.
Dovis wrote: How are you not getting that a unit with 48" range will be the one to hit sooner than the one with 24"
I get that what I dont get is how you think they will kill any Plague Marines like that.
Dovis wrote: You can maneuver however you like, but if you are outranged, you either stay in your cover and get withered down by long range fire or you try to get into range. Who cares that the IG is wielding heavy weapons - they don't have to move, they are already in place to shoot the Plague Marines, they don't even have to be visible to fire the mortars, if you want to analize how this would go in a real serious matchup:
Or PM bound from cover to cover while out of range cause you can advance giving you between a 7 and 8 inch move per turn on average which means on the 4th turn the PM could move regular and be within 24", but the IG would be in range of Lasguns at that point. So 3 turns of AC firing will net you 0 kills and 3 turns of Mortar fire nets you 0 kills since the PM have a much better save cause your not an idiot charging an enemy line avoiding cover the whole time. So now PM fire 2.6 rounds to 3 so I'm going with that to keep this simple. 3 hits with Blight Launchers 4 hits with bolters, Blight Launcher Wound guardsman on 2s AND reroll 1s so 3 wounds from Blight Launchers, Guardsman get a 6+ save which amounts to about a .33 chance at getting 1 save so uncommon. Bolters Fire 3 shots, hit with 2, wound with 1, but we will save the IG save it. So the IG lost 3 guys roll a Battle shock test and lose no more. IG shoots now the withering fire of Lasguns which does a total of .16 wounds, oh, that's not going to do much and with the .17 from the auto-cannon AND the .14 from the mortars your not looking good it would take between 3-4 turns to kill 1 guy on average in the mean time your losing on average 3 models a turn. Which means...you would lose 3 models and kill all 3 units of Guardsman.
=36*0.5*0.33*0.33*0.66
^ That's how much mortars do, till PM get in range (36 as in I took the statistic average of 4 shots per mortar on a D6)
So 1.29 PM die till they get in range, also if the map is full of cover like you described, it means that upon being sighted, the IG can be placed to be in rapid fire range, basically the would begin with only 2-3 PM vs 30 IG
Probably why you should throw them in a fething Rhino instead of footslogging, which is literally the dumbest idea ever for a 5" movement infantry unit.
See my sig. it would be the longest thread on Dakka.
Dont Legions still get their cult units as troops? Freaking White Scars dont get biker troops anymore. Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Heck, even White Scars would like a word about model support compared to Chaos.
We will see if the Primaris release is Codex: Adeptus Astartes or Codex: Primaris Astartes. Or Adeptus Primaris. Or whatever.
Dont Legions still get their cult units as troops? Freaking White Scars dont get biker troops anymore. Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Heck, even White Scars would like a word about model support compared to Chaos.
We will see if the Primaris release is Codex: Adeptus Astartes or Codex: Primaris Astartes. Or Adeptus Primaris. Or whatever.
yeah, that to my mind is the big question, will the primaris codex release be codex: space Marines. or Codex: Primaris Marines. the optimist in me thinks Space Marines given that GW has taken pains to make Primaris Marines intergrate reasonably well with space marine chapters.
Dovis wrote: How are you not getting that a unit with 48" range will be the one to hit sooner than the one with 24"
I get that what I dont get is how you think they will kill any Plague Marines like that.
Dovis wrote: You can maneuver however you like, but if you are outranged, you either stay in your cover and get withered down by long range fire or you try to get into range. Who cares that the IG is wielding heavy weapons - they don't have to move, they are already in place to shoot the Plague Marines, they don't even have to be visible to fire the mortars, if you want to analize how this would go in a real serious matchup:
Or PM bound from cover to cover while out of range cause you can advance giving you between a 7 and 8 inch move per turn on average which means on the 4th turn the PM could move regular and be within 24", but the IG would be in range of Lasguns at that point. So 3 turns of AC firing will net you 0 kills and 3 turns of Mortar fire nets you 0 kills since the PM have a much better save cause your not an idiot charging an enemy line avoiding cover the whole time. So now PM fire 2.6 rounds to 3 so I'm going with that to keep this simple. 3 hits with Blight Launchers 4 hits with bolters, Blight Launcher Wound guardsman on 2s AND reroll 1s so 3 wounds from Blight Launchers, Guardsman get a 6+ save which amounts to about a .33 chance at getting 1 save so uncommon. Bolters Fire 3 shots, hit with 2, wound with 1, but we will save the IG save it. So the IG lost 3 guys roll a Battle shock test and lose no more. IG shoots now the withering fire of Lasguns which does a total of .16 wounds, oh, that's not going to do much and with the .17 from the auto-cannon AND the .14 from the mortars your not looking good it would take between 3-4 turns to kill 1 guy on average in the mean time your losing on average 3 models a turn. Which means...you would lose 3 models and kill all 3 units of Guardsman.
=36*0.5*0.33*0.33*0.66
^ That's how much mortars do, till PM get in range (36 as in I took the statistic average of 4 shots per mortar on a D6)
So 1.29 PM die till they get in range, also if the map is full of cover like you described, it means that upon being sighted, the IG can be placed to be in rapid fire range, basically the would begin with only 2-3 PM vs 30 IG
Yeah im done responding to you. 9 turns to get 24 inches? Your not going to advance at all? Right.
Dont Legions still get their cult units as troops? Freaking White Scars dont get biker troops anymore. Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Heck, even White Scars would like a word about model support compared to Chaos.
We will see if the Primaris release is Codex: Adeptus Astartes or Codex: Primaris Astartes. Or Adeptus Primaris. Or whatever.
TS and DG do but go look at the list of allowed units. TS have like 16 units to choose from most of which are repeats, Sorcerer on Disk, Sorcerer, Exalted Sorcerer on Disk. Scars don't need Troops bring Outrider Detachments 1 HQ 3 FA required gets you 1 Extra CP 2 of those and your almost the same CP as a Battalion Detachment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Probably why you should throw them in a fething Rhino instead of footslogging, which is literally the dumbest idea ever for a 5" movement infantry unit.
They have access to an 80 point model which ups their average advance move to 5" it would be much better to bring him.
Dovis wrote: How are you not getting that a unit with 48" range will be the one to hit sooner than the one with 24"
I get that what I dont get is how you think they will kill any Plague Marines like that.
Dovis wrote: You can maneuver however you like, but if you are outranged, you either stay in your cover and get withered down by long range fire or you try to get into range. Who cares that the IG is wielding heavy weapons - they don't have to move, they are already in place to shoot the Plague Marines, they don't even have to be visible to fire the mortars, if you want to analize how this would go in a real serious matchup:
Or PM bound from cover to cover while out of range cause you can advance giving you between a 7 and 8 inch move per turn on average which means on the 4th turn the PM could move regular and be within 24", but the IG would be in range of Lasguns at that point. So 3 turns of AC firing will net you 0 kills and 3 turns of Mortar fire nets you 0 kills since the PM have a much better save cause your not an idiot charging an enemy line avoiding cover the whole time. So now PM fire 2.6 rounds to 3 so I'm going with that to keep this simple. 3 hits with Blight Launchers 4 hits with bolters, Blight Launcher Wound guardsman on 2s AND reroll 1s so 3 wounds from Blight Launchers, Guardsman get a 6+ save which amounts to about a .33 chance at getting 1 save so uncommon. Bolters Fire 3 shots, hit with 2, wound with 1, but we will save the IG save it. So the IG lost 3 guys roll a Battle shock test and lose no more. IG shoots now the withering fire of Lasguns which does a total of .16 wounds, oh, that's not going to do much and with the .17 from the auto-cannon AND the .14 from the mortars your not looking good it would take between 3-4 turns to kill 1 guy on average in the mean time your losing on average 3 models a turn. Which means...you would lose 3 models and kill all 3 units of Guardsman.
=36*0.5*0.33*0.33*0.66
^ That's how much mortars do, till PM get in range (36 as in I took the statistic average of 4 shots per mortar on a D6)
So 1.29 PM die till they get in range, also if the map is full of cover like you described, it means that upon being sighted, the IG can be placed to be in rapid fire range, basically the would begin with only 2-3 PM vs 30 IG
Yeah im done responding to you. 9 turns to get 24 inches? Your not going to advance at all? Right.
Dont Legions still get their cult units as troops? Freaking White Scars dont get biker troops anymore. Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Heck, even White Scars would like a word about model support compared to Chaos.
We will see if the Primaris release is Codex: Adeptus Astartes or Codex: Primaris Astartes. Or Adeptus Primaris. Or whatever.
TS and DG do but go look at the list of allowed units. TS have like 16 units to choose from most of which are repeats, Sorcerer on Disk, Sorcerer, Exalted Sorcerer on Disk. Scars don't need Troops bring Outrider Detachments 1 HQ 3 FA required gets you 1 Extra CP 2 of those and your almost the same CP as a Battalion Detachment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Probably why you should throw them in a fething Rhino instead of footslogging, which is literally the dumbest idea ever for a 5" movement infantry unit.
They have access to an 80 point model which ups their average advance move to 5" it would be much better to bring him.
You really are terribad at math, 9 turns? Are you high, there's 3 Mortar crews, each doing 4 shots per turn 3 X 4 = 12, 36/12=3
That's 3 turns you nincompoop, even if advancing at max 6", they could only cover 22 at MAX per 2 turns, so it's 3 turns guaranteed free firing for the mortars if they start at max range, if we're talking about map with lots of obstacles and cover, like you said, then the walk might even take longer
Dont Legions still get their cult units as troops? Freaking White Scars dont get biker troops anymore. Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Heck, even White Scars would like a word about model support compared to Chaos.
We will see if the Primaris release is Codex: Adeptus Astartes or Codex: Primaris Astartes. Or Adeptus Primaris. Or whatever.
No, the longest thread would be loyalist Marine players whining about Chaos whiners whining, often pre-emptively before any Chaos players complained.
Dont Legions still get their cult units as troops? Freaking White Scars dont get biker troops anymore. Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Heck, even White Scars would like a word about model support compared to Chaos.
We will see if the Primaris release is Codex: Adeptus Astartes or Codex: Primaris Astartes. Or Adeptus Primaris. Or whatever.
Eh, not getting your thing as a troops choice is basically just two CP you lose, from taking one of the other formations over a brigade. That's not really all that bad atm. Might be later, but that'll be once you get better stratagems, which means have gotten more official support.
Dont Legions still get their cult units as troops? Freaking White Scars dont get biker troops anymore. Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Heck, even White Scars would like a word about model support compared to Chaos.
We will see if the Primaris release is Codex: Adeptus Astartes or Codex: Primaris Astartes. Or Adeptus Primaris. Or whatever.
No, the longest thread would be loyalist Marine players whining about Chaos whiners whining, often pre-emptively before any Chaos players complained.
Have you seen the N&R thread? While everyone else was like "ooooh, shiny" for the leaks, Chaos players started leaking themselves.
EDIT: Except for Khorne players, who were like "MY LORD OF SKULLS CAN BE USED NOW!"
^ That's how much mortars do, till PM get in range (36 as in I took the statistic average of 4 shots per mortar on a D6)
So 1.29 PM die till they get in range, also if the map is full of cover like you described, it means that upon being sighted, the IG can be placed to be in rapid fire range, basically the would begin with only 2-3 PM vs 30 IG
How did you get 3 mortars, or did you change the parameters again to suit your needs? not to mention you wouldnget get 3 turns of shooting you would get two, and you didnt factor in cover which gives the Plague Marines a 2+ save which would cut those numbers in half.
Loyalist Marine Players: Lolnope, you just want everything we have and more. Like these Bike troops. Or these shiny Grav weapons.
*10 years later*
Chaos Players: Could it be we have Legion tactics now?
*6 months later*
Loyalist Marine Players: I don't get why you're complaining, everyone got the nerfbat. This Bike Scar army I had for years is now somewhat overcosted in points.
bhollenb wrote: Chaos Marines got pretty shafted through most of 6th and 7th until Traitor Legions was released. Chaos player complained that their 'dex was weak and old and they were justified in this.
However after the Thousand Son's, Traitor Legions, and Death Guard releases of the past 6 months, it's really just reflexive bitching at this point. It's the same whining that already asserts that "Chaos sux in 8th!!!" despite almost no games being played and the rules not yet fully released.
And don't hand me crap like, "Oh the rules have all been leaked!" cause no they haven't (played lots of Stronghold Assault and Cities of Death have you?) and even if they were no one's played anything like enough games to truly judge any faction's relative strength.
Except that...all the rules have been leaked.
Including Cities of Death and Stronghold Assault. In full form.
Dont Legions still get their cult units as troops? Freaking White Scars dont get biker troops anymore. Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Heck, even White Scars would like a word about model support compared to Chaos.
We will see if the Primaris release is Codex: Adeptus Astartes or Codex: Primaris Astartes. Or Adeptus Primaris. Or whatever.
No, the longest thread would be loyalist Marine players whining about Chaos whiners whining, often pre-emptively before any Chaos players complained.
And then both of them jumping against the SoB players that began to whine about plastic sisters of battle
Loyalist Marine Players: Lolnope, you just want everything we have and more. Like these Bike troops. Or these shiny Grav weapons.
*10 years later*
Chaos Players: Could it be we have Legion tactics now?
*6 months later*
Loyalist Marine Players: I don't get why you're complaining, everyone got the nerfbat. This Bike Scar army I had for years is now somewhat overcosted in points.
Chaos got more rules in the indexes then Loyalists got to tell the different type of Codex Marines apart?
I don't even play Bike Scars, but they have just as valid complaints about getting things changed around as Chaos players do, except Chaos players got to keep cult troops.
Okay, let's take five Plague Marines with two Blight Launchers (105+28=133 points), versus three Infantry Squads with one mortar each (120+15=135).
Spoiler:
Guardsmen start near the rear of their deployment zone (6" in), in cover, to make best use of their mortar. Plague Marines start at the front of their deployment zone, out of cover, but will be in cover by turn two. So they're 30" away, and the Plagues go first.
Turn 1-Plagues advance 8.5", leaving them 21.5" away. Guardsmen fire their mortars, getting 10.5 shots, 5.25 hits, 1.75 wounds, .58 after saves and .39 dead after their FNP. Then, the rest fire their lasguns, 21 shots, 10.5 hits, 3.5 wound, 1.17 after saves, and .78 after their FNP. A little over one Plague Marine is already dead, but morale won't hurt them. They're leadership 8. (Also, we killed the Sarge in the squad that took damage-we need Lasguns more than Leadership).
Turn 2-Plagues get cover, and are now 16.5" away. They fire 2 bolters shot, 1.33 hits .89 wounds, .44 past saves, and 4 Blight Launcher shots, 2.67 hits, 2.59 wounds, and 2.16 dead after saves (of a mere 6+). That's about two and a half dead guardsmen, but hell, let's round to 3. Now, Guardsmen, Mortars! 10.5 shots, 5.25 hits, 1.75 wounds, .29 past saves and .19 past FNP. Then, lasguns,18 shots, 9 hits, 3 wounds, .5 after saves and .33 after FNP. Let's round to two dead Plagues (1.69 dead actually), leaving the two Blight Launchers and the Sarge. Also, note that we assumed one guardsmen ran away due to morale (on average, none will) leaving four guardsmen down as compared to two Plagues.
Turn 3-Plagues move up to 11.5", still in cover. They're now in rapid fire range, but won't charge-too risky. 2 bolt shots, which is .44 wounds, and 4 Blight Launchers, which is 2.16 wounds. Three more dead guardsmen, leaving one squad on a normal dude and Mortar, but we'll assume they pass morale this time. 10.5 mortar shots, which is .19 dead Plagues, and 32 Lasgun shots, 16 hits, 5.33 wounds, .89 past saves and .59 past FNP. We'll say no Plagues die this turn, since it's at 2.47.
Turn 4-Plagues move up to 6.5", out of cover now. They will charge this turn. They focus fire on an unwounded squad, planning to finish off the wounded one with a charge. 2 bolts and 4 Blight Launchers, on an unwounded squad, for 2.6 (rounded to 3) dead Guardsmen (including Sarge) on another squad. They then Charge the squad that's on two. Overwatch gives us 3.5 shots from mortar, .58 hits, .19 wounds, .06 past saves and .04 past FNP. Lasgun gives us 2 shots, .33 hits, .11 wounds, .04 past saves and .02 past FNP. Now, that technically brings us above the 2.5 mark, but we'll say the Plagues all survive Overwatch, and wipe out the squad without difficulty. Anyway, the remaining two squads fire, with 7 mortar shots, 3.5 hits, 1.17 wounds, .20 past 2+ save, .13 past FNP, and then 25 Lasgun shots, 12.5 hits, 4.17 wounds, .69 past saves, .46 past FNP. That's now 3.21 dead Plagues, so they only have their Blight Launchers.
Turn 5-Plagues move right next to the wounded squad, fire their Blights, kill 2.16 (leaving them on 5 dead) and charge, wiping the squad. (I could do CC math, but screw it, let's give this to the Plagues.) That leaves one whole Guard squad to fire on them. 3.5 mortar shots, 1.75 hits, .58 wounds, .09 past saves and .06 past FNP. Next, 15 Lasguns, 7.5 hits, 2.5 wound, .42 past saves and .28 past FNP. That takes us to 3.58 dead Plagues, so they're down to one Blight Launcher.
Turn 6-Plague moves to right next to the last squad, fires his Blight Launcher, kills 1 (not Sarge, this time-we want his chainsword) and charges in. Overwatch does .04 from the mortar, and 13 Lasgun shots gives us 2.17 hits, .72 wound, .12 past saves and .08 past FNP, for 3.7 dead Plagues. Our lone Plague Marine swings, hitting .67, wounding .5 (minor rounding for rerolling 1s to wound) and killing .25. Our HWT, Sarge, and six regular dudes swing 11 times, 5.5 hits, 1.83 wounds, .31 past save and .20 past FNP. 3.9 dead plagues. Then, on the Guard turn, they swing again, doing the same .20 wounds for 4.1 dead Plagues, and Plague swings back, for .25 more dead.
Turn 7-Plague Marine swings for .25 more wounds. We'll call that a dead guy. Then, Guardsmen swing, 10 times, 5 hits, 1.67 wound, .28 past saves and .19 past FNP. 4.29 dead Plagues. Then, Guard swing again, .19 wounds, 4.48 dead Plagues. Plague Marine swings, .25, we'll kill ANOTHER guardsmen. (It probably wouldn't-but I'll count it as killing one anyway.)
Turn 8-Technically the game already ended. But whatever. Plague Marine swings, dealing .25 wounds, no dead Guard this time. Then, Guardsmen swing, 9 times, 4.5 hits, 1.5 wounds, .25 past saves .17 past FNP. 4.65 dead Plagues. And even if he survives, on the Guard's turn, that goes up to 4.82 dead. He ain't surviving.
Over eight turns, if the Plague Marines spend as little as two turns out of cover, they'll die to a man, with Guardsmen having a little over half a squad left.
Crazyterran wrote: Chaos got more rules in the indexes then Loyalists got to tell the different type of Codex Marines apart?
I don't even play Bike Scars, but they have just as valid complaints about getting things changed around as Chaos players do, except Chaos players got to keep cult troops.
Except the Scar players will have a codex within a year. Some of us Chaos players will be waiting 2 maybe more before anything drops for us.
I thought bikes got a buff, having 2 wounds each now. A bike army painted as White Scars isn't worth taking anymore?
If Death Guard had 4+ Disgustingly Resilient, would that be too much? I guess if they turn out to really not be worth their points, and adding things could make them too powerful, lowering their points cost could be the way to go in the end.
Poxwalkers are good. But as said a few times, Guardsmen are too cheap for their effectiveness. I think Poxwalkers being any cheaper would make them just as insane as guardsmen with the ability to replenish numbers. Guardsmen just need to be made more expensive. 5-6 points, while conscripts should be 4, imo.
Also, hasn't 40k been about using the right tools for the right job? If Plague Marines aren't killing guardsmen at the respective points costs, perhaps they aren't right for taking out hordes? I haven't actually seen much in the game which can combat hordes in 8th ed meta, other than another horde. Normal tactical marines lose to equivalent points of guard. Primaris do too.
Tiberius501 wrote: I thought bikes got a buff, having 2 wounds each now. A bike army painted as White Scars isn't worth taking anymore?
If Death Guard had 4+ Disgustingly Resilient, would that be too much? I guess if they turn out to really not be worth their points, and adding things could make them too powerful, lowering their points cost could be the way to go in the end.
Poxwalkers are good. But as said a few times, Guardsmen are too cheap for their effectiveness. I think Poxwalkers being any cheaper would make them just as insane as guardsmen with the ability to replenish numbers. Guardsmen just need to be made more expensive. 5-6 points, while conscripts should be 4, imo.
Also, hasn't 40k been about using the right tools for the right job? If Plague Marines aren't killing guardsmen at the respective points costs, perhaps they aren't right for taking out hordes? I haven't actually seen much in the game which can combat hordes in 8th ed meta, other than another horde. Normal tactical marines lose to equivalent points of guard. Primaris do too.
for space Marines I'm thinking their best anti horde utility is PROABLY the whirlwind. which is still one of the cheaper options among space Marine vehicles.
Bluebeard wrote: Do you think we will get new Noise Marines models eventually?
Assuming GW doesn't change course and does for emperor's children what they've done for 1k sons and death then, then yes, and noise terminators, and some some of slaanishi human cultist.
shoved down their throat as their starter army.
