So with all Craftworlders, Dark Eldar and Harlies having the <Aeldari> keyword, they can all be in the same detachments/army without needing to also be Ynnari.
Since I have played Eldar/DE since 4th ed, even modeling and painting them as 1 army even before "allies" was a thing, this is great for me.
Obviously, I was a fan of the Fracture of Biel-Tan.
But now that I don't have to use multiple detachments with minimum tax units just to field the ones I want, or take them in a Reborn Host, the appeal of Ynnari is not so strong.
So the question of this thread is, what units or combo of units make Ynnari 'work'?
Or are there some non-Ynnari units that really shine with Battle Focus, Power from Pain and Rising Crescendo?
For me, I really like Battle Focus on Shuricannon Bikes. I also plan on using a few Venoms, which do not benefit from either SfD nor PfP.
Same goes for my WK, which I'll still take despite the nerf.
So the units I want to use don't really care about being Ynnari, or would prefer to keep their normal abilities
I feel that Yvraine is extremely powerful right now. Words of the phoenix is an amazing utility spell that is extremely reliable to cast (only need a 5 with the Gyriax) and hard to deny (due to range and 1+ to cast). Double move to get up the board, double shoot to due more damage than any other power. Ancestors grace is a great spell for an army full of 2+ and 3+ to hit. She is just pure win now.
I would take ynnari just for her, and because harlequins still need long range tank busters.
lambsandlions wrote: I feel that Yvraine is extremely powerful right now. Words of the phoenix is an amazing utility spell that is extremely reliable to cast (only need a 5 with the Gyriax) and hard to deny (due to range and 1+ to cast). Double move to get up the board, double shoot to due more damage than any other power. Ancestors grace is a great spell for an army full of 2+ and 3+ to hit. She is just pure win now.
I would take ynnari just for her, and because harlequins still need long range tank busters.
Yvraine is also a quick fix for some not-overly powerful units. Take Striking Scorpions, for example. Deep Strike+Word of the Phoenix movement=almost guaranteed alpha strike.
Ynnari took a few big hits:
- Only infantry and bikers now get SftD
- ICs still provide a soulburst action when they die, but since they're not in units anymore and will almost always die last, it's harder to use them to provide soulbursts
- no more deep-strike + soulburst (because of range)
- Power from pain and rising crescendo are better now. Rising crescendo works on every turn (not just the 2nd), and now you can run and shoot assault weapons (pretty good for bikes, even if they're not the best units in the harlie dex). PfP is just straight up better.
- Revenant powers are only accessible to Yvraine and the Yncarne. And even if you could get farseers with words of the phoenix, you could only cast it once (assuming matched-play rules). So the best power by far got nerfed pretty bad.
One thing that's not really clear to me is how you become Ynnari. The rules talk about an "Ynnari army", but army isn't really defined in the book. I suppose the intent is that you have to go all-in on the Ynnari thing (all your Aeldari units have to become Ynnari, or none at all), but then can you still take one of the Ynnari special character in an otherwise non-Ynnari detachment?
If you could mix and match Ynnari with non-Ynnari, that would make them a lot better.
At first I thought Ynnari would be a no-brainer for Harlequins. But I came to realize that Rising crescendo helps a lot to get T1 charges (especially with bikes), which is obviously a huge thing.
Risings crescendo's usefulness also depends on another ruling that's unclear to me: if a starweaver falls back from combat, can the embarked units fire? The rules for open-topped transports explicitly say that the embarked units can't shoot, but it's said as an example of the fact that all the restrictions that would normally apply to the transports should apply to the models inside, and that the fly keyword isn't transfered to them. But harlequins can shoot after falling back, irrespectively of the fly keyword. If the final ruling is that players can shoot fusion pistols after a Starweaver falls back, it makes Rising Crescendo even more powerful for them, making Ynnari not very appealing to harlequins.
Just like in 7th, soulburst is better for shooting units. But you can't drop down with a WWP archon, blast something, and shoot again something else. Maybe the most reliable way to use it is with small units in the back, that shoot at long range, like dark reapers, or maybe trueborns with dark lances. But that's not enough to offset the disadvantages of going Ynnari.
But maybe we also need to think about new ways to build and play armies. Consider 4 barebone warlocks and 6 min units of kabalite warriors. That's 358 points and 6 CP, for 34 models and a good psychic presence. You could deploy them as a front line, and footslogg towards the enemy. As soon as a kabalite unit gets destroyed, you can soulburst to either shoot or reposition another unit. It provides very good screening against melee armies (and many Aeldari units can fly or move over models, so it's not too problematic for the Aeldari player), or they can be used to occupy the board and block deployment against DS heavy armies or GSC.
You could also take this setup in non-Ynnari armies now, but maybe the fear of triggering soulburts will make you opponent less likely to shoot these annoying kabalites off the board.
lambsandlions wrote: I feel that Yvraine is extremely powerful right now. Words of the phoenix is an amazing utility spell that is extremely reliable to cast (only need a 5 with the Gyriax) and hard to deny (due to range and 1+ to cast). Double move to get up the board, double shoot to due more damage than any other power. Ancestors grace is a great spell for an army full of 2+ and 3+ to hit. She is just pure win now.
I would take ynnari just for her, and because harlequins still need long range tank busters.
Yvraine is also a quick fix for some not-overly powerful units. Take Striking Scorpions, for example. Deep Strike+Word of the Phoenix movement=almost guaranteed alpha strike.
I really don't like striking scorpions. I think they are an ugly model and for 17 points 2 attacks with a s4 ap0 weapons kinda stinks. But scourge or swooping hawks double shooting the turn they drop down is good. Also just speed boosting reavers, starweavers, or shining spears is good.
Can Word of the Pheonix affect units that are Ynnari but don't have strength from death? Like War Walkers for example.
Two units that I think would be great to cast it on are Wraithguard with D-scythes or Dark Reapers. A blob of 10 Scythe Guard could be made to move and advance twice for a 10+ 2d6" move and still shoot. That's a 25" threat range, fortune and conceal would make them pretty tough. 10 Dark Reapers firing twice seems nasty too.
lambsandlions wrote: I feel that Yvraine is extremely powerful right now. Words of the phoenix is an amazing utility spell that is extremely reliable to cast (only need a 5 with the Gyriax) and hard to deny (due to range and 1+ to cast). Double move to get up the board, double shoot to due more damage than any other power. Ancestors grace is a great spell for an army full of 2+ and 3+ to hit. She is just pure win now.
I would take ynnari just for her, and because harlequins still need long range tank busters.
Yvraine is also a quick fix for some not-overly powerful units. Take Striking Scorpions, for example. Deep Strike+Word of the Phoenix movement=almost guaranteed alpha strike.
I really don't like striking scorpions. I think they are an ugly model and for 17 points 2 attacks with a s4 ap0 weapons kinda stinks. But scourge or swooping hawks double shooting the turn they drop down is good. Also just speed boosting reavers, starweavers, or shining spears is good.
I like the concept for them, but I don't love the models (and they aren't multipose plastic). I will solve that by converting Kabalite Warriors. It only helps that I will convert the (now useless) Visarch to be used as Karandras, so both units will fit nicely aesthetically.
They aren't great for their cost, but they have several things going for them. +1 to hit units in cover helps giving them a clear role as objective clearers. Throw in the mandiblasters and pistols and a sustained assault Biting Blade and they get decent offense.
It's true that other units may benefit more from WotF, but I really want to make Striking Scorpions work Scourges are also on my radar
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: The Enhance warlock power makes Scorpions Sustained Assault rule trigger on 5+. Something to consider at least.
Add the bonus for attacking models in cover and you get extra attacks on 4+. Add Karandras aura and the whole unit (not only the Exarch) gets extra attacks on 4+. Yes, many points spent. Yes, not uber powerful. But cool nonetheless
Edit: Maybe this should be in the Aeldari general thread, maybe I will copy-paste later
I run some numbers of Striking Scorpions and a directly comparable unit, Tyranid Raveners.
Against a toughness 3, 5+ save in cover 6 Raveners (138 points) do 7,7 wounds on average.
Against the same unit a 5 SS unit (Exarch with Biting blade 107 points, with Chainsabres 111 points) do 7,71/8,25 wounds on average (pistols+mandiblasters+CC).
Not bad at all for a significantly cheaper unit! I know that may be an ideal scenario, but maybe it informs about the kind of target SS should pick.
Note: I didn't check survability due to laziness. Sunburst grenade wasn't included because in a deepstrike+charge scenario it can't reach the target.
I'm going to use Ynnari for my footslogging army. Movement values outside of transports are higher across the game, so Strength from Death movement is likewise better. I'm hoping Word of the Phoenix can be used on any Ynnari unit, as I'd like to be able to give an extra movement phase to large beast packs, wraithlords, and wraithknights.
In melee, getting two pile-in moves per fight phase makes fighting twice very appealing. I'll be looking forward to seeing how a rampant Solitaire or Lelith does with two fight phases.
Now that a venom costs about 8-9 Wyches, I'd like to see how large units on the ground do rather than small ones in transports. Each unit can be accompanied by a 7-point Razorwing Flock for a potential soulburst. If I declare a charge with the flock first, the enemy either kills it with overwatch, giving the Wyches an extra move for a consistent charge or an extra round of pistol shooting, or let the flock make it into combat, preventing overwatch fire on the Wyches. The idea is to replicate the strategy of getting out of a transport and charging with the transport first. I hope this works out as well as I think it might, if Wyches simply don't cut it like last edition this can be done with Harlequin Troupes as well.
Overall, my footslogging army is looking forward to this new edition. The movement profiles are great boons for Aeldari, with most units advancing 9-14" per turn. Most importantly, no more bleeping templates! You can really huddle a lot of small units together now to get them all within 6" for character auras and 7" for soulbursting.
I'm still not convinced to go Ynnari at all, despite taking a mix of units.
Shuricannons are clearly the best weapon for bikes and Advancing that 6" extra makes sure you can be in range of your target. If they are Ynnari, they'll lose that Battle focus
I'm aslo only taking the minimum 3 units of Kabalites for a Battalion and the rest of my <Druhkari> units are vehicles, so would not benefit from SfD
Ynnari jetbikes still have Ride the Wind, they just have -1 to hit with their cannons after advancing. I guess it comes down to preference between not having a -1 modifier to hit or potentially getting to shoot twice. There are a lot of ways to boost or reroll hits, but shooting twice is a luxury. Battle Focus is more consistent, but Strength from Death has a higher potential payout for jetbikes. Again, personal preference.
Galef wrote: I'm still not convinced to go Ynnari at all, despite taking a mix of units.
Shuricannons are clearly the best weapon for bikes and Advancing that 6" extra makes sure you can be in range of your target. If they are Ynnari, they'll lose that Battle focus
I'm aslo only taking the minimum 3 units of Kabalites for a Battalion and the rest of my <Druhkari> units are vehicles, so would not benefit from SfD
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If you absolutely need the 6" of extra movement you can just take the -1 to your bs since they are assault weapons. It's a pretty small price to pay for SfD.
Your vehicles are getting nothing from power from pain. While they cannot soul burst themselves then can provide the opportunity for your other models to soul burst.
If you absolutely need the 6" of extra movement you can just take the -1 to your bs since they are assault weapons. It's a pretty small price to pay for SfD.
Your vehicles are getting nothing from power from pain. While they cannot soul burst themselves then can provide the opportunity for your other models to soul burst.
Do we know how SfD and transports interact? If a transport is destroyed do the guys inside get to make a soul burst attack? Now that transports can assault it might be worth it to ram them into units during combat. If you have a starweaver full of harlequins or raider full of incubi they will most likely be shot down for the next turn for the troops to get out and assault. If you can soulburst off a vehicle you could ram the starweaver/raider into combat, if it does soulburst the unit inside into combat and get an attack or if the starweaver/raider doesn't die you now have an enemy unit that needs to fall back or be locked in combat. Maybe not the best way to waste 100+points of vehicle but worth it at times.
Also I think I understand how the new rules work but I am not 100%. If you soulburst and choose to charge you will then be selected to fight in the combat phase. You will be fighting first even if it is not your turn because you charged. If you destroy a unit in the combat phase and soulburst, choosing to charge you can be selected a second time to fight (as per the soulburst rule that units may shoot or fight twice in a turn). So you are able to soulburst from one combat to another and fight.
Well the great thing is that all I have to do to try out Ynnari is to just add the keyword. My list would not need to change at all.
Another bonus for me is that I plan on running multiple Autarchs to escort all my bikes. If a jetbike unit dies near them, they can Move out of danger and remain "not the closest target"
I guess it just comes down to play testing. Is a 16" move + 24" gun enough, or do I really need the extra 6" to get in range? -1 to hit really isn't an option that is appealing, as I could just take Scatter lasers for that. BS3+ with re-roll 1s from the Autarch are really reliable.
So RAW, can word of the phoenix work on a ynnari vehicle? As far as i can tell, it just says make a soulburst action and the spell can target any ynnari unit within 18"
That's the clarification a lot of us are waiting for, there are a lot of Ynnari units that aren't Infantry or Bikers.
Neat little trick that surprised my opponent yesterday- My Yncarne was in the midst of a combat and finished off a unit. Rather than giving the Yncarne an extra Soulburst fight phase, I instead cast Word of the Phoenix on a unit far away from the fight and they got an extra move towards an objective that helped win me the game. With a Ynnari psyker, your potential choices for units that get to Soulburst is extended by the 18" range of Word of the Phoenix. Yay strategy!
Also I think I understand how the new rules work but I am not 100%. If you soulburst and choose to charge you will then be selected to fight in the combat phase. You will be fighting first even if it is not your turn because you charged. If you destroy a unit in the combat phase and soulburst, choosing to charge you can be selected a second time to fight (as per the soulburst rule that units may shoot or fight twice in a turn). So you are able to soulburst from one combat to another and fight.
I don't think that's how it works. A unit can only make a soulburst action once in a turn. In the above scenario if you charge after wiping out a unit you cannot then be chosen to fight; you can only fight twice if you are within 1" of an enemy unit and have not already done another soulburst action that turn. Charging in your opponent's turn is useful though.
Also I think I understand how the new rules work but I am not 100%. If you soulburst and choose to charge you will then be selected to fight in the combat phase. You will be fighting first even if it is not your turn because you charged. If you destroy a unit in the combat phase and soulburst, choosing to charge you can be selected a second time to fight (as per the soulburst rule that units may shoot or fight twice in a turn). So you are able to soulburst from one combat to another and fight.
I don't think that's how it works. A unit can only make a soulburst action once in a turn. In the above scenario if you charge after wiping out a unit you cannot then be chosen to fight; you can only fight twice if you are within 1" of an enemy unit and have not already done another soulburst action that turn. Charging in your opponent's turn is useful though.
I agree that you don't get to fight twice just because you charged again. Soulburst's note about how it may result in you fighting twice doesn't mean that you can fight twice at will -- if you use a Soulburst to move, and then later in the turn you charge, you just get to fight once. It's just saying that the Soulburst ability that lets a unit immediately fight is independent of the normal process for determining which units fight and doesn't count as "choosing a unit to fight" or whatever the restriction is on that in the Fight phase rules. Only the actual fight ability lets you fight twice.
However, note that there's no rule saying that units can't fight unless they're within 1". A unit can clearly use a Soulburst to immediately fight even if there is no enemy anywhere close by. In this case it's going to work a lot like the case where a unit charged but the unit it charged got wiped out before the charger got picked to fight -- it will somewhat often be the case that units fight despite not being within 1" in the ordinary course of the game. A fight simply starts with a pile in towards the closest enemy models, and then if they're a valid target (so, within 1" after the pile in and a target of your charge if you charged this turn) you can attack them. Regardless of whether any of your models were able to attack you'd then consolidate. So an Ynarri unit in the middle of nowhere could Soulburst to fight and then move 6" as long as each model ends each 3" leg closer to the closest enemy.
However, note that there's no rule saying that units can't fight unless they're within 1". A unit can clearly use a Soulburst to immediately fight even if there is no enemy anywhere close by. In this case it's going to work a lot like the case where a unit charged but the unit it charged got wiped out before the charger got picked to fight -- it will somewhat often be the case that units fight despite not being within 1" in the ordinary course of the game. A fight simply starts with a pile in towards the closest enemy models, and then if they're a valid target (so, within 1" after the pile in and a target of your charge if you charged this turn) you can attack them. Regardless of whether any of your models were able to attack you'd then consolidate. So an Ynarri unit in the middle of nowhere could Soulburst to fight and then move 6" as long as each model ends each 3" leg closer to the closest enemy.
Concerning the rule that states you can't target a unit that you haven't charged, in the preceding charge phase. There is some discussion of this RE Berserkers too. So, if you moved 3" and had no viable targets, then consolidate 3" more, why not have just used the 'Move' Soulburst ability instead? If the Soulbursted unit then ends up within and 1" of an enemy unit, can the enemy attack it, even if the Soulbursting unit could not attack them back? Perhaps you would do this because you would be trying to 'lock in' an enemy unit, to prevent them from shooting? I think people have mentioned this tactic regarding Berserkers also.
However, note that there's no rule saying that units can't fight unless they're within 1". A unit can clearly use a Soulburst to immediately fight even if there is no enemy anywhere close by. In this case it's going to work a lot like the case where a unit charged but the unit it charged got wiped out before the charger got picked to fight -- it will somewhat often be the case that units fight despite not being within 1" in the ordinary course of the game. A fight simply starts with a pile in towards the closest enemy models, and then if they're a valid target (so, within 1" after the pile in and a target of your charge if you charged this turn) you can attack them. Regardless of whether any of your models were able to attack you'd then consolidate. So an Ynarri unit in the middle of nowhere could Soulburst to fight and then move 6" as long as each model ends each 3" leg closer to the closest enemy.
Concerning the rule that states you can't target a unit that you haven't charged, in the preceding charge phase. There is some discussion of this RE Berserkers too. So, if you moved 3" and had no viable targets, then consolidate 3" more, why not have just used the 'Move' Soulburst ability instead? If the Soulbursted unit then ends up within and 1" of an enemy unit, can the enemy attack it, even if the Soulbursting unit could not attack them back? Perhaps you would do this because you would be trying to 'lock in' an enemy unit, to prevent them from shooting? I think people have mentioned this tactic regarding Berserkers also.
Yeah, the move Soulburst is probably always better if you're more than 7" away from anything -- I was just illustrating what the ability technically allows. Obviously this really shines when you're within 4" because you can pile in and then attack. But if you're within 7" I think it might often make sense to just move to lock something into combat. You might want to do this during the enemy's Shooting phase for a variety of reasons, during your own Fight phase to lock down a new enemy unit, or early in your turn so that you can pick a fight without eating Overwatch.
I think it's more-or-less clear that units can become eligible to fight over the course of the fight phase. If you kill something in a fight and then Soulburst to consolidate into something else, they'd get to attack. Just as if you'd been close enough to pile in and attack them instead.
If I end my movement phase within 3" of the enemy and then soulburst for any reason, can I choose fight and pile in putting myself in combat without charging so no overwatch?
lambsandlions wrote: If I end my movement phase within 3" of the enemy and then soulburst for any reason, can I choose fight and pile in putting myself in combat without charging so no overwatch?
Within 4", but, yeah, this seems to clearly be legal. It is obviously intended that sometimes units are able to fight despite not being within 1" of the enemy, and the fight rules themselves don't even put any restrictions on fighting -- they just say that chargers and within-1"ers can fight.
I'm not really sure how Soulburst is intended to work. It's worth noting that the Sisters' Acts of Faith do a lot of similar things but are generally more restrictive all around. Their insta-fight ability specifically says you can only do it if you're within 1".
Strength from Death is still absolutely incredible. Even with it only being half as effective as it used to be with 1 activation from 1 death, a good general can literally turn the tides of a game with it.
I am speaking from experience playing against it. Definitely better than the Eldar or DE variants, and you can still take more or less a mish mosh of all the units that you need. DE and Harlequin transports are both MUCH more durable than they used to be, but you don't really care because you get a guaranteed soulburst when it dies as long as the vehicle doesn't explode.
luke1705 wrote: DE and Harlequin transports are both MUCH more durable than they used to be, but you don't really care because you get a guaranteed soulburst when it dies as long as the vehicle doesn't explode.
That's also how I read it. When a transport is destroyed, you disembark before removing the model, so you can indeed soulburst after disembarking. But when it explodes, it's removed before you disembark, so no soulburst. That actually explains the rather weird ruling on 7th edition soulbursting.
That's assuming a unit is "completely destroyed" when the last model is removed from the table, and not when the last model reaches 0 wounds. I think it makes sense, especially with the word "completely", but I could see people argue about it.
Soulbursting out of destroyed transports is indeed pretty good, but not as much as in 7th. Most things you put in transports will want to be close to their target, so you need to have your transport die right in the opponent's face. But fast skimmers actually became slower (they could move + flat out for a total of 30", and now it's usually 22" or 16" + D6"), and Raiders lost their deep strike rule.
Ok, did not read every bit so sry if i dbl comment on some things.
Ynnari is strong, IMO stronger than Battle focus but not stronger than Rising Crescendo (i play DE and Harlequins). Ynnari has some units that are extremely strong in them here is a fast list.
Vehicles are still good, especially to get units like Incubi and Fire Dragons to there spots (tho i think Incubi are better as DE some like to take them IMO they are better as Ynnari than Troupes, if you play Harlequins just to them as them)
Some tips: Warlocks are supper cheap and effective as a HQ's but a Farseer better, make sure to put them on Bikes. If you are bring the Yncarne tho, dont over do it with HQ points, a Farseer and Yncarne is extremely costly, i'd suggest either a Farseer and a cheaper HQ like Warlock or Yvraine, or the Yncarne and if you are higher points then a cheap HQ like a Warlock
Hemlock is AMAZING, just take it < Conceal on this bad boy is a good idea too (to bad you can only cast it once lol)
Units like Razorwing Flocks/Khymerae's will die, single units of 1 in front of Shuriken Bikes, use them to soak up over watch (to get a free shooting if they die) or to take damage.
Dark Reapers always need 3+ and are good against everything, just take them.
Fire Dragons are your large toughness 12+ wound killers, its common to do 18 wounds to 1 model, put them in a vehicle and in key places they will shoot 2x
Solitaire is good, b.c of the 12" movement and 2D6 with Blitz it is easy to get a turn 2 charge, you dont need Advance most the times with him and sense your 1st charge is a blitz you get 10 attacks, he should be able to consolidate or charge again, with a Caress and a Kiss that you can pick from he is very handy.
You can also take Harlequin bikes they are basically Shruiken Bikes but with a -1 to hit and a 4++, the Eldar ones are a bit cheaper but these can also do more melee damage, i would take 2 small 2man units just for counter charging from DS'ing or teleporting units, they are nice to have. Tho many mike like to Spam 2 units of 3 Shuriken bikes for more raw power.
Your lists will most likely be 2 Outrider Detachments almost if not completely full.
Warlock on Windrider
Dark Reapers < Wave Serpent (doesnt go in just fly it around)
Solitaire
Razorflock
Razorflock
Razorflock
Razorflock
Razorflock
Skyweaver x2, x2 Glaives
Can you take an Avatar of Khaine in a Ynnari detatchment?
At first I thought you could because all units share the Aeldari faction keyword, but the Ynnari page says that in order to gain the Ynnari keyword on units they have to be in a Ynnari army, and you can't have an avatar in a Ynnari army. I think this also means you can't include it in the same army even if it's in a different detachment.
Tyr13 wrote: You can include him, he just doesnt give any bonuses to anyone else, and cant gain any bonuses from anyone else either.
His fearless bubble would still effect any Craftworld units even if they were being used as Ynnari, they don't lose the Asuryani keyword. What is your reasoning for saying he can be taken?
With Ynnari, you want to MSU and stay within 7" of each other so that you trigger Strength from Death as much as possible and punish the opponent for killing you.
So, anything on a jetbike, venom, raider, starweavers, flyers, infiltrators, and deepstrikers should do well in a Ynnari list.
luke1705 wrote: DE and Harlequin transports are both MUCH more durable than they used to be, but you don't really care because you get a guaranteed soulburst when it dies as long as the vehicle doesn't explode.
That's also how I read it. When a transport is destroyed, you disembark before removing the model, so you can indeed soulburst after disembarking. But when it explodes, it's removed before you disembark, so no soulburst. That actually explains the rather weird ruling on 7th edition soulbursting.
That's assuming a unit is "completely destroyed" when the last model is removed from the table, and not when the last model reaches 0 wounds. I think it makes sense, especially with the word "completely", but I could see people argue about it.
Soulbursting out of destroyed transports is indeed pretty good, but not as much as in 7th. Most things you put in transports will want to be close to their target, so you need to have your transport die right in the opponent's face. But fast skimmers actually became slower (they could move + flat out for a total of 30", and now it's usually 22" or 16" + D6"), and Raiders lost their deep strike rule.
I don't have the rules in front of me, but this seems weird. Surely a unit is destroyed when the last model in the unit is destroyed. It's kind of awkward to interpret it as, first, the transport model is destroyed, then the transported units disembark, then you remove the model, and only then is the transport unit destroyed.
At first I thought you could because all units share the Aeldari faction keyword, but the Ynnari page says that in order to gain the Ynnari keyword on units they have to be in a Ynnari army, and you can't have an avatar in a Ynnari army. I think this also means you can't include it in the same army even if it's in a different detachment.
Yeah, I think you can't take him. An "army" is clearly the entire collection of stuff that you're bringing to the battle. There's no clear definition of what it means to be a "<keyword> army", but surely the most reasonable interpretation of it is that it's an army where all the units have the keyword. And so if you have an Ynnari army, which is required in order to give things like Striking Scorpions the Ynnari keyword, then you can't bring units in any detachment that don't have the Ynnari keyword.
Though you could bring the Avatar in a detachment that includes any or all of the three Ynnari HQs; it would just be an Aeldari detachment and an Aeldari army.
So the issue with the Avatar (and other non-Ynnari units) in a Ynnari army seems to by the poorly defined term "army".
I think there are 4 different Aeldari armies, each with their own "X army list" page in the index.
The faction keyword restriction on detachments allows you to take a combination of units from the 4 different Aeldari armies in the same detachment.
I don't think the Ynnari army list is meant to be unique among the 4 in not being able to mix with the others. It is written as it is to avoid having to duplicate most of the datasheets from the other 3 Aeldari armies with the only difference being an extra keyword and special rule.
So the Ynnari work just the same as the other 3. I think the Chaos Legions (eg Thousand Sons) work in a similar way.
Generally, no, Legions and Chapters don't talk about having a "<faction> army" as a requirement for taking the vanilla units as <faction> units. They just give a list of units which can gain their particular keyword in place of "<faction>".
supreme overlord wrote: dont think it's been mentioned yet but your Ynnari units can now share transports IE wraithguard in raiders are things again.
No, unfortunately they can not. The only Ynnari units that can go into transports are ones with Ynnead's will and the only two models with it are Visarch and Yvraine.
So i am a bit new to Ynarri -- i have an existing DE force and I can't help but notice I don't see that we're able to take a raider as a dedicated transport? Am I reading that wrong? I do see the ravager but no raider -- only starweavers and wave serpents.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: So the issue with the Avatar (and other non-Ynnari units) in a Ynnari army seems to by the poorly defined term "army".
I think there are 4 different Aeldari armies, each with their own "X army list" page in the index.
The faction keyword restriction on detachments allows you to take a combination of units from the 4 different Aeldari armies in the same detachment.
I don't think the Ynnari army list is meant to be unique among the 4 in not being able to mix with the others. It is written as it is to avoid having to duplicate most of the datasheets from the other 3 Aeldari armies with the only difference being an extra keyword and special rule.
So the Ynnari work just the same as the other 3. I think the Chaos Legions (eg Thousand Sons) work in a similar way.
Pg 214, read "Choose Armies" to me its clear that an army is "What you bring on the table" not "faction names".
Aeldari isnt 4 "factions" but more like 15 lol. if you got o pg 240 you can read more about that, it even says "Imperium" is a faction that is SM equivalent to Aeldari.
optrgrow wrote: So i am a bit new to Ynarri -- i have an existing DE force and I can't help but notice I don't see that we're able to take a raider as a dedicated transport? Am I reading that wrong? I do see the ravager but no raider -- only starweavers and wave serpents.
Raider says "Transports, Drukhari" the same as Starweavers for Harlequins or Wave Serpents for Eldar.
str00dles1 wrote: So anyone have a 2k all commers general list for Ynnari?
Id be interested in starting them but don't own any elder/dark elder at all so would want to know good first purchases
Ynnari covers 3 factions with additional special characters. As a result there is no general list for Ynnari. I suggest looking through the whole eldar line (except coven) and picking out the units you like the look off. From there you can start building a list around them.
str00dles1 wrote: So anyone have a 2k all commers general list for Ynnari?
Id be interested in starting them but don't own any elder/dark elder at all so would want to know good first purchases
I'm going to try this 1K list this week-end for a local event:
- master + 5 troupes, fusion/embrace on everyone, starweaver
- 2 skyweavers
- solitaire
- hemlock
- 10 kabalites, blaster, cannon, raider with lance
I think the same list x2 (minus solitaire) could also work at 2K.
But I don't plan on running them as Ynnari.
Fire dragons in Wave Serpent
Dark Reapers
Lots of Bikes
Some Psykers
Hemlock
Beast Packs units of 1
There is your starting list for all Competitive Ynnari lists.
I personally like Solitaire for melee choice, I like a Farseer and Autarch on bikes over the Ynnari HQ's, keeping these 2 units close to 3-4 bike units
DE, Incubi, beast packs, and Scourges are all good, just saying what 1st picks are, those 1st picks are only like 1k points or so.
All bikes are good, DE, Harlequins and Eldar, and each of them fills a different roll.
DE Reavers with Drugs and a blaster
Harlequins Skyweavers are melee vs of Windriders, a bit more costly but S4 -2 D2 with a -1 to hit against them,
Incubi can finish up a squad and move/pile in or even combat again.
Beast like Ravorwing Flocks or Khymerae's are extremely cheap, fast and if you place them in front of bike, use them as 1'st chargers to hit over watch (if they die you get a SFD action) these are very useful.
Im not saying DE isnt good its just that DE are "Jack of all trades" army, they mix and max AT and AI in each unit.
Examples:
Reavers, 1 High Str weapon per 3 bikes. 2 bikes AI
Warriors: 1 special or range weapon High Str weapon per 5/10 guy, other 4/9 AI
Fliers: 1-2 AI and 1-2 AT weapons
Also DE is poison or S8 no between thats worth taking (shredder spam is a thing but not as good as shuriken)
Due to this reason, Eldar are a better pick for Ynnari, when you can have units like Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers, and with units that can spam S6 (this is better AI than Poison b.c you have dedicated AT you dont need S6 for that, S6 needs 2's or 3's to wound and Shuriken can rend, this makes poison pointless).
Edit: Compare Dark Reavers to Scourge, 1 can sit in cover and shoot all game with 2 modes of fire and a good save already, they also can have a Warlock with them, then you look at Scourges, they can either high in cover with 4 DL's or DS with blasters, either way the Dark Reapers are almost always better, BUT you can still play Scourges effectively for sure! Its just why Scourges are not a "1st pick"
I'm not convinced by scourges, they seem pretty expensive for the fire power they bring. Ravagers seem so much better.
As for the bikes, I'm not a huge fan. Reavers lack the punch they used to have in melee, and are much more expensive so can't be used as a throwaway unit as easily as before.
Skyweavers with rising crescendo can get T1 charges pretty reliably, and murder Primaris marine. Apart from that, they're not that great. S4 with only 3 attacks mean they won't be dealing a ton of damage. Most people I've played with so far were surprised by the T1 charge, but I expect them to adapt and bubble wrap more, which will make it harder for the Skyweavers to pull their weight.
Shuricannon skyrunners are a bit better, especially when taken en-masse. S6 spam with some AP seems to be pretty decent in this edition too. But wave serpents look like a better platform to do it, because they can transport more specialized units (fire dragon, wraithguards) at the same time.
I think you shouldn't write out Yvrainne Amishprn86. In fact, I think she is a basic component of every Ynnari list.
One free Soulburst per turn is awesome, and if the FAQ allows her to use it on any Ynnari unit (as the wording implies) it will be a must-have for vehicles or Wraithknights.
Wayniac wrote: Is it worth Ynnari if you don't plan on using the Triumvirate? I mean Soulburst still seems REALLY good.
I think Yvraine is extremely good and worth playing in almost any list. Her words of the phoenix can be used in so many ways from guaranteeing a charge, making sure your anti-tank kills its target, letting something get murdered in close combat.
@DarknessEternal
um.... Range, Movement, S6 vs S4 and toughness lol,
All of which are pretty irrelevant for their costs.
They are worth it 100%, also forgot to say they are 2 wounds each.
Guardians are irrelevant, a unit of 10 guardians is a little less than a unit of 3 Windriders... Lets just say you got them in range (b.c a transport that costs 170pts got them there), even if you shoot the 20 shots on a T4 unit, the 14 hits is much more but due to the S4 you literally are doing the same number of wounds.
But you now you move literally less than 1/2 the distance, if your shooting against T5+ then you do less wounds, you are only T3 with a 5+, any unit of bolters will kill you.
Guardians have there place in Eldar for sure, but Min/Maxing for Ynnari bikes are better.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: So if you go Ynnari your whole army has to be Ynnari and you can't mix in some Harlequins that keep Rising Crescendo or DE with PfP?
When making an army the only condition is that they all have a common faction keyword. Anything you make ynary, gets the ynary keyword without losing aeldari, and in the process they lose their army rule to get sfD.
so you could have a unit of ynati dire avengers, who have both keywords ynary and aeldari in the same detachment as some troupes with rising crescendo who don't have ynary rule thus not getting SfD but they keep their rising crescendo and a unit of dhrukari witches that do not have y are thus they have the power from pain or whatever is the rule name
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: So if you go Ynnari your whole army has to be Ynnari and you can't mix in some Harlequins that keep Rising Crescendo or DE with PfP?
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: So if you go Ynnari your whole army has to be Ynnari and you can't mix in some Harlequins that keep Rising Crescendo or DE with PfP?
No, he's correct. Ynnari is an army wide thing, you have no choice. Please read Army of the Reborn.
I have and it talks about reborn army, but nowhere in the rule book or index specifies a reborn army has to have every unit with the ynary keyword. The rules for creating a battle forged army are that all unit must share a keyword. You can still use asuryani and ynari together, each having its own rule
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: So if you go Ynnari your whole army has to be Ynnari and you can't mix in some Harlequins that keep Rising Crescendo or DE with PfP?
No, he's correct. Ynnari is an army wide thing, you have no choice. Please read Army of the Reborn.
I have and it talks about reborn army, but nowhere in the rule book or index specifies a reborn army has to have every unit with the ynary keyword. The rules for creating a battle forged army are that all unit must share a keyword. You can still use asuryani and ynari together, each having its own rule
Other than the Ynnari HQ units, it really is all or nothing. All other units only get SfD and the Ynnari keyword when taken as a part of an Ynnari army (based off that keyword). Since your army is all the models you bring and not just the detachment, it really is all or nothing. If you bring a non Ynnari Aeldari, it would disqualify any would be Ynnari that didnt have the keyword on their profile as standard.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: So if you go Ynnari your whole army has to be Ynnari and you can't mix in some Harlequins that keep Rising Crescendo or DE with PfP?
No, he's correct. Ynnari is an army wide thing, you have no choice. Please read Army of the Reborn.
I have and it talks about reborn army, but nowhere in the rule book or index specifies a reborn army has to have every unit with the ynary keyword. The rules for creating a battle forged army are that all unit must share a keyword. You can still use asuryani and ynari together, each having its own rule
Other than the Ynnari HQ units, it really is all or nothing. All other units only get SfD and the Ynnari keyword when taken as a part of an Ynnari army (based off that keyword). Since your army is all the models you bring and not just the detachment, it really is all or nothing. If you bring a non Ynnari Aeldari, it would disqualify any would be Ynnari that didnt have the keyword on their profile as standard.
Again, could you please point me to were does it say that all units need to have the Ynnari army has to have all Ynari units?
I have been reading through the army building and it only says that all units in an army need to have the same keyword. There is no reference at all to Ynnary army having all Ynnari units. You need to remove that 7th mentality when building armies.
My army can be Ynnari army and have some Asuriany with battle focus (think of them as allies) and the common keyword would be Aeldai. Right now we don't have anything called Army of this, and there are actually no benefits for having such type of army.
Maybe in the future there will, but not right now.
Again, could you please point me to were does it say that all units need to have the Ynnari army has to have all Ynari units?
I have been reading through the army building and it only says that all units in an army need to have the same keyword. There is no reference at all to Ynnary army having all Ynnari units. You need to remove that 7th mentality when building armies.
My army can be Ynnari army and have some Asuriany with battle focus (think of them as allies) and the common keyword would be Aeldai. Right now we don't have anything called Army of this, and there are actually no benefits for having such type of army.
Maybe in the future there will, but not right now.
The rule that lets you give the Ynnari keyword to Aeldari units is the second sentence of "Army of the Reborn": "Any unit that does so gains the Ynnari keyword". There doesn't appear to be any choice here -- if "any unit that does so" means any Aeldari unit that's taken as part of an Ynnari army, then it's just automatic. They all get the keyword. How are you reading "any unit that does so" so that you're getting a choice?
I know what you mean but there is no where in the rules that say that you get army of this or army of that. There is no army of ultramarine thus all units hav ultramarine keyword so far. It will come in the future.
Right know that's they way of identifying ynnari, since Ynari don't have their own codex entry the units belonging to the army of the reborn twin ynari keyword, but they can still be mixed with asuriany with battle focus
Personally I play all ynari, so I don't use it, but if you wanted you could. The diferce with <legion> is that they replace that word, ynari just add it
kaintxu wrote: I know what you mean but there is no where in the rules that say that you get army of this or army of that. There is no army of ultramarine thus all units hav ultramarine keyword so far. It will come in the future.
Right know that's they way of identifying ynnari, since Ynari don't have their own codex entry the units belonging to the army of the reborn twin ynari keyword, but they can still be mixed with asuriany with battle focus
Personally I play all ynari, so I don't use it, but if you wanted you could. The diferce with <legion> is that they replace that word, ynari just add it
This is very hard to make sense of. It sounds to me like you see exactly where in the rules it says that all Aeldari units taken as part of an Ynnari army gain the Ynnari keyword, and you just don't like that because other special factions that let you bring in units from other main factions don't work this way. I mean, it's not like it would have been hard for GW to allow people to mix and match Ynnari and Craftworld units; literally all they'd have had to do is add the word "may" in there.
It would not and I understand where all the doubt comes from.
If you see ynari army is not capped nor bolder. I quote "except..... any aeldari unit can be part of an Ynnari army. Any unit that does show gains the Ynnari keyword. These cannot use the following abilities..... Instead they gain SfD"
As I was saying when you make your army you are not making an Ynari army. What this is trying to say is which units bwlong to the Ynnari army, defining which units you can chose from for your detachment that can have the Ynnari keyword. Same as you have craftwork lists of entries (the craftwork army) or dhrukari.
Please look into the rules. On army building there is no such a thing called XXX army. The rule for building a list is that they must share a keyword. Is the same as you can have rubrics and plague marines as troops in a chaos lists as long as you give each of them the right keyword.
As I was saying my whole army goes by Ynnari, no unit plays with battlefocus, so I won't benefit from it, but if my opponent did it, this would be fine
kaintxu wrote: It would not and I understand where all the doubt comes from.
If you see ynari army is not capped nor bolder. I quote "except..... any aeldari unit can be part of an Ynnari army. Any unit that does show gains the Ynnari keyword. These cannot use the following abilities..... Instead they gain SfD"
As I was saying when you make your army you are not making an Ynari army. What this is trying to say is which units bwlong to the Ynnari army, defining which units you can chose from for your detachment that can have the Ynnari keyword. Same as you have craftwork lists of entries (the craftwork army) or dhrukari.
Please look into the rules. On army building there is no such a thing called XXX army. The rule for building a list is that they must share a keyword. Is the same as you can have rubrics and plague marines as troops in a chaos lists as long as you give each of them the right keyword.
As I was saying my whole army goes by Ynnari, no unit plays with battlefocus, so I won't benefit from it, but if my opponent did it, this would be fine
I don't think that there's any reason to suppose that a "<faction> army" is meant to refer to all possible units that could have the <faction> keyword. You've just made this up out of thin air. This interpretation also doesn't really work because in this case, all Aeldari units (with exceptions) are part of "the Ynnari army" (this is why you use this exact phrase later in your post). The actual rules use "can be" and "an Ynnari army", suggesting that not all Aeldari units that can be part of an Ynnari army are part of one, and also that there are multiple possible Ynnari armies. You have to twist what's written there to make your interpretation even facially plausible.
Further, the rules are quite clear about what an "army" is -- it's the set of actual units that you're bringing to the table to play with. I don't think there's something explicitly saying what a "<faction> army" is, but note that the "Battle-forged Armies" rules on p108 of the Xenos 1 index give an example of how you might fill out an "Army Roster", and it includes an entry for one's "Army Faction". Surely any reasonable person would take "<faction> army" as almost certainly intended to refer to an army with <faction> as its Army Faction.
Everyone just needs to accept that you cannot have a Ynnari army with Rising Crescendo, no matter how you try to game the wording. Let's not use Battle Focus as the example here
No one is saying the Ynnari army has battle crescendo, but you can hace on a same detachment Ynnari units and harlequin units, each with its own rule, as they share aeldari.
Please do read the rules of how to make a battle forged army. There no no such thing as "Ynnary army" made of middles just with the ynary rule.
Think of Ynnary coded as all those units from aeldari, drukhary and harlequin with the y army word. That is one codex, then you have another codex which is craftworlds.
When building your detachment you chose one common faction keyword, aeldari, and since both codices have that word they can go on the same detachment. Same as ultramarine and blood angels go together. They each have their own codex but they share the imperium keyword.
The same thing happened in the thousand sons topic and it was taken to the rules forum and it was resolved favorably
Of course you can, same as you can have haemonculous covens with crwftworld because they share aeldari keyworld.
What happens is that those haemoncolous covens. Not gain the Ynnari keyword so they don't have SfD rule, the just keep PfP.
I repeat, there is no such thing as an Ynnary army so far, not a Space marine army. There are armies that have to share a keyword but that's just about it. Please read the rules and stop going by assumptions. When decides drop, then we might have specific armies with specific rules, but not st the moment. This is like AoS, as long as all your you it's are chaos they can go together, but if all your units are tzeentzch you gain destiny dice. The narrower the keyword you use the better, but for now there is no such thing
By that logic, no unit other than the Ynnari HQs can be Ynnari. If there is no such thing as an Ynnari army then no other Aeldari can have the Ynnari keyword. They dont have a <Aeldari Faction> placeholder Ynnari to be placed. The only way to gain that keyword is in an Ynnari army ( which you say doesnt exist) and that cannot include certain units.
I do believe the safer bet is that there can be an Ynnari army,but following the stipulations mentioned (as everyone else seems to have interpreted it)
OMG, WHAT I MEAN RULES WISE IS THAT WHEN YOU MAKE YOUR ARMY List it is not classed as an Ynnari only army that just has Ynnari units.
They Ynnari army is the list of available units for the Ynnari pulled from the other three factions. That's not a term you use for your game. For your game you make a force based on keywords and you can pick units from the 4 different aeldari armies as they share the aeldari keyword.
please have a look at the rules of how to build an army, our guys are not reading it. The only thing that exist are detachment and having a common faction keyword, if they just wanted for you to only have Ynnari keyword there, they would have specified your detachment or battle forged army can only have units sharing the Ynnary keyword which they haven't so far as for now, you til códices arrive, we don't have race specific armies, but grand alliance armies
An army is not well defined in the book, but most people assume it means "all the models you bring".
A <keyword> army is therefore an army in which all the units share that same keyword. An army in which you have Aeldari Ynnari units and Aeldari Harlequin units isn't an Ynnari army, but instead just an Aeldari army. It would be perfectly legal, as all units share a common keyword.
However, the only way to transform a standard Aeldari unit into an Ynnari one, is to include it in an Ynnari army (as explained in the Army of the reborn section). If your army in an Ynnari army, it means that all the units in it have to have the Ynnari keyword. So you can only give the Ynnari keyword to a standard Aeldari unit if all the others units in your army also have that keyword. That's why you could never create an army in which you have non-Ynnari units and Ynnari units at the same time (expect if those Ynnari units are from the triumvirate, since they come with the Ynnari keyword by default, and don't require your whole army to be Ynnari in order to gain that keyword).
ARMY OF THE REBORN
"With the exception of < insert exceptions > any AELDARi unit can [= is allowed to] be part of an Ynnari army. Any unit that does so gains the Ynnari keyword".
I think the problem the interpretation of that "can" in the phrase above. It allows all said units - with exceptions clearly named - to be part of an Ynnari army; it's not allowing those units to choose whether or not they want to be part of the said Ynnari Army.
I hope this helps out a bit to clarify what is not that wonderfully stated in the rules. A couple of "must" here and there would have helped to be 100% sure what has to be Ynnari or not.
I am almost 100% sure that GW intended for Ynnari to be able to mix with non-Ynnari. Unfortunately they worded the army of the reborn section in a funny way that prevents it without explicitly stating it isn't allowed. The arguments come from the fact that everything else that explains how to build an army seems to allow it.
Will probably be fixed in the codexes, especially if people badger them about it.
fresus wrote:An army is not well defined in the book, but most people assume it means "all the models you bring".
A <keyword> army is therefore an army in which all the units share that same keyword. An army in which you have Aeldari Ynnari units and Aeldari Harlequin units isn't an Ynnari army, but instead just an Aeldari army. It would be perfectly legal, as all units share a common keyword.
However, the only way to transform a standard Aeldari unit into an Ynnari one, is to include it in an Ynnari army (as explained in the Army of the reborn section). If your army in an Ynnari army, it means that all the units in it have to have the Ynnari keyword. So you can only give the Ynnari keyword to a standard Aeldari unit if all the others units in your army also have that keyword. That's why you could never create an army in which you have non-Ynnari units and Ynnari units at the same time (expect if those Ynnari units are from the triumvirate, since they come with the Ynnari keyword by default, and don't require your whole army to be Ynnari in order to gain that keyword).
As you say, people is assuming army is "all the models you brin." No where in the rules say that and even all indexes have Their units under the main headline ARMY (craftworld army list, Drukhari army list or Ynnari army list). If you properly read the rules for making your battle forged.
Let me quote you a few things from the rulebook about army composition
"CHOOSE ARMIES: When choosing an army for a matched play game, your army must be battle-forges (pg 240) and its total points valor can not exceed the limit set for your game.
ARMY FACTION: All of the units in a matched play army, with the exception of those that are UNALIGNED, must have a least one Faction Keyword in common (e.g. IMPERIUM or CHAOS), even though they may be in different detatchments
BATTLE-FORGED ARMIES: If a mission you are playing instructs you to select a Battle-forged army, it means that you must organise all the units in detachments. ... To include a particular detachment in your army, simply organise some or all of your units so that they fit withing the restriction and limitations detailed for a particular Detachment. ...."
As you can see you have "Armies" but not "Army of XXXX". The restriction on army building is that they share a common faction keyword. Since the Ynnari army list is composed of units from three different army lists they are saying the the unit entries you can use are the Aeldari ones and you add the Ynnari keywords to them. When it talks about all those units that can be part of the Ynnari army, it says they CAN be part, but not they HAVE to be part, meaning if you want them to be pulled from they Ynnari pool of units, you have to give them they Ynnari keyword.
As we have said above, an army is just detachment with a common keyword, so if you want to pull units from different detachments, as long as they have the same keyword you can.
Bloodshade wrote:ARMY OF THE REBORN
"With the exception of < insert exceptions > any AELDARi unit can [= is allowed to] be part of an Ynnari army. Any unit that does so gains the Ynnari keyword".
I think the problem the interpretation of that "can" in the phrase above. It allows all said units - with exceptions clearly named - to be part of an Ynnari army; it's not allowing those units to choose whether or not they want to be part of the said Ynnari Army.
I hope this helps out a bit to clarify what is not that wonderfully stated in the rules. A couple of "must" here and there would have helped to be 100% sure what has to be Ynnari or not.
Again, read the above, there is no such thing a "Army of XXX" or "Ynnari army", what it reffers to with Ynnary army is the units you can use as we are under the Ynnari Army List header, same as for all other factions. For the time being there are armies with detachments that share keywords.
Leaving the Aeldari or Ynnari discussion aside I think Ynnari is very interesting. Here are some thoughts:
As SfD triggers from dead units, better bet on killing small units first and keeping our guys close. Meaning get into melee with the main forces and use shooting to support this.
Use snipers like Death Jester and Rangers. Their 1st job is getting Yncarne into play T1, trigger SfD and are both cheap Core and Elite choices for more CP.
To not leave Yncarne alone in their lines, get more stuff into SfD range asap and maximise Word, pick an Alpha strike unit in a transport to send in T1 by Yvraine. Fight, hopefully trigger SfD, and Consolidate to tie their line down. Follow up with cheaper assault units in transports for target saturation.
Yvraine should advance up escorted by some chaff unit to maximise Word and then get into melee T2.
Use small/solo Razorwings for tying down enemies, fill slots for CP and trigger SfD. Keep under Yncarnes umbrella to not die from Morale.
Get Psykers into range asap to get possible bonus Smites/Gaze. That´s alot of extra Mortal wounds.
Backline shooters should always work side by side to gain SfD when their buddy unit goes down. E.g. 2x Dark Reapers.
kaintxu wrote: As you say, people is assuming army is "all the models you brin." No where in the rules say that and even all indexes have Their units under the main headline ARMY (craftworld army list, Drukhari army list or Ynnari army list). If you properly read the rules for making your battle forged.
Let me quote you a few things from the rulebook about army composition
"CHOOSE ARMIES: When choosing an army for a matched play game, your army must be battle-forges (pg 240) and its total points valor can not exceed the limit set for your game.
Ok, I'll stop you here first: this quote speaks about "choosing an army". What stops me from thinking that is already enough for the criterion "your X units can be part of an Ynnari army?"
Reasoning is: Am I choosing an army? Yes I am. Am I deciding to do an Ynnari army? Again, yes I am. Thus if we're going for RAW interpretations, you already have the word army mentioned for me to refer to it when I open Xenos 1 and look for an Ynnari army.
Be careful, I'm not saying that it's definitely like me and others think, I already convened that the rules are not clear enough, could be both ways. GW could say both and sound right, but it's GW word what we need.
kaintxu wrote: ARMY FACTION: All of the units in a matched play army, with the exception of those that are UNALIGNED, must have a least one Faction Keyword in common (e.g. IMPERIUM or CHAOS), even though they may be in different detatchments
BATTLE-FORGED ARMIES: If a mission you are playing instructs you to select a Battle-forged army, it means that you must organise all the units in detachments. ... To include a particular detachment in your army, simply organise some or all of your units so that they fit withing the restriction and limitations detailed for a particular Detachment. ...."
As you can see you have "Armies" but not "Army of XXXX". The restriction on army building is that they share a common faction keyword. Since the Ynnari army list is composed of units from three different army lists they are saying the the unit entries you can use are the Aeldari ones and you add the Ynnari keywords to them. When it talks about all those units that can be part of the Ynnari army, it says they CAN be part, but not they HAVE to be part, meaning if you want them to be pulled from they Ynnari pool of units, you have to give them they Ynnari keyword.
This is exactly what my first post was about. The word can.
From my point of view, the word can is there to specify what units are allowed to be part of Ynnari army thus gaining the Ynnari keyword, not to say "they can choose whether to".
We have to clarify this thing first, because there is no clear RAW interpretation.
kaintxu wrote: As we have said above, an army is just detachment with a common keyword, so if you want to pull units from different detachments, as long as they have the same keyword you can.
Again, read the above, there is no such thing a "Army of XXX" or "Ynnari army", what it reffers to with Ynnary army is the units you can use as we are under the Ynnari Army List header, same as for all other factions. For the time being there are armies with detachments that share keywords.
No dude, I honestly think that this works as per the Legion armies. They tell you that Noise Marines are Troops in Emperor's Children armies (here it is the term "army"), and for doing so you also have to replace all <LEGION> keywords with EMPEROR'S CHILDREN and <MARK OF CHAOS> with SLAANESH.
My reasoning was: same for Ynnari. All units must have Ynnari keyword if i want to do an Ynnari army.
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Scactha wrote: Leaving the Aeldari or Ynnari discussion aside I think Ynnari is very interesting. Here are some thoughts:
As SfD triggers from dead units, better bet on killing small units first and keeping our guys close. Meaning get into melee with the main forces and use shooting to support this.
Use snipers like Death Jester and Rangers. Their 1st job is getting Yncarne into play T1, trigger SfD and are both cheap Core and Elite choices for more CP.
To not leave Yncarne alone in their lines, get more stuff into SfD range asap and maximise Word, pick an Alpha strike unit in a transport to send in T1 by Yvraine. Fight, hopefully trigger SfD, and Consolidate to tie their line down. Follow up with cheaper assault units in transports for target saturation.
Yvraine should advance up escorted by some chaff unit to maximise Word and then get into melee T2.
Use small/solo Razorwings for tying down enemies, fill slots for CP and trigger SfD. Keep under Yncarnes umbrella to not die from Morale.
Get Psykers into range asap to get possible bonus Smites/Gaze. That´s alot of extra Mortal wounds.
Backline shooters should always work side by side to gain SfD when their buddy unit goes down. E.g. 2x Dark Reapers.
This is interesting, I was already thinking about snipers for cheeky stuff like Commisars that absolutely need to be taken care of.
And yes, always 2x and keep close the best shooting units.
Also, anyone has good opinions about Hellions? I think they are cheap enough for acting like chaff but they still have anti-infantry saturation fire and in cc each does 2 S4 attacks with 2 Dmg each (with drugs either S5 or 3A each). Having 10 is 170p, if they manage to do something it's good, if they die also good for SfD.
Scactha wrote: Leaving the Aeldari or Ynnari discussion aside I think Ynnari is very interesting. Here are some thoughts:
As SfD triggers from dead units, better bet on killing small units first and keeping our guys close. Meaning get into melee with the main forces and use shooting to support this.
Use snipers like Death Jester and Rangers. Their 1st job is getting Yncarne into play T1, trigger SfD and are both cheap Core and Elite choices for more CP.
To not leave Yncarne alone in their lines, get more stuff into SfD range asap and maximise Word, pick an Alpha strike unit in a transport to send in T1 by Yvraine. Fight, hopefully trigger SfD, and Consolidate to tie their line down. Follow up with cheaper assault units in transports for target saturation.
Yvraine should advance up escorted by some chaff unit to maximise Word and then get into melee T2.
Use small/solo Razorwings for tying down enemies, fill slots for CP and trigger SfD. Keep under Yncarnes umbrella to not die from Morale.
Get Psykers into range asap to get possible bonus Smites/Gaze. That´s alot of extra Mortal wounds.
Backline shooters should always work side by side to gain SfD when their buddy unit goes down. E.g. 2x Dark Reapers.
I have played a few games of ynnari and SfD is absolutely bonkers and gives some really good flexibility to the army. Just a few notes on a couple of your points.
- I don't think melee is necessarily the way to go for ynnari. Eldar have some really powerful short range shooting options and quality psychic abilities which combo super well with sfd. Warp spiders, shining spears, dire avengers and even guardians pump out a ton of short range fire power. Sfd allows them to drop in, focus fire down a unit and jump back to safety. Getting two rounds of shooting with guide up is awesome. And doom will almost guarantee the first target is going to drop to trigger Sfd. I have had a couple of games where my guardian units parked on objectives in cover have moved out, shurikened down a unit then moved back into cover and claiming the objective with sfd. Or warp spiders suddenly jumping 4d6 across the field into the enemies backline troops because a unit nearby was shot down.
- Solo razorwings are awesome. I've used them backing up my shining spears where they charge first so the enemy either shoots them down and kills them allowing the spears another round of shooting before they too charge, or they get into combat and the spears get in unimpeded.
- even with Sfd you can't cast the same spell twice in a turn. So it's only a bonus smite if you cast all other spells. Ancestors grace is underrated tho. I love putting it on shining spears as they are dual threat and the reroll applies to both shooting and close combat. So gets double mileage out of it even before soulburst.
Ok, I'll stop you here first: this quote speaks about "choosing an army". What stops me from thinking that is already enough for the criterion "your X units can be part of an Ynnari army?"
Reasoning is: Am I choosing an army? Yes I am. Am I deciding to do an Ynnari army? Again, yes I am. Thus if we're going for RAW interpretations, you already have the word army mentioned for me to refer to it when I open Xenos 1 and look for an Ynnari army.
Be careful, I'm not saying that it's definitely like me and others think, I already convened that the rules are not clear enough, could be both ways. GW could say both and sound right, but it's GW word what we need.
Let me be the one to stop you there. I have provided quotes on how armies are built, still need you guys to provide some for your argument. If you read the rulebook and all the quotes I have pasted, there is no such thing a "Chaos Army" or "ynarry Army", that is a term you are making up yourself, please point to me where in the rulebook it specifies that XXX army if completely made of units with such keyword.
All the rulebook says is that your battle forged army has to have a common faction keyword, it never talks about that the army you make based on XXX keyword suddenly becomes "XXX army". So that concept you have about "Am I deciding to do an Ynnari army?Again. yes" is wrong as that is not defined anywhere. You are basing this thought on how armies are deffined, but it seems you don't play Age of Sigmar where this has been around for a while, and until the "codices" came out, there was not such a thing as specific armies.
No dude, I honestly think that this works as per the Legion armies. They tell you that Noise Marines are Troops in Emperor's Children armies (here it is the term "army"), and for doing so you also have to replace all <LEGION> keywords with EMPEROR'S CHILDREN and <MARK OF CHAOS> with SLAANESH.
My reasoning was: same for Ynnari. All units must have Ynnari keyword if i want to do an Ynnari army.
Of course it workd as the Chaos legions, but I think you are also misinterpreting chaos legions. Actually if you go to the Chaos posts (there was a big argument also at the Thousand sons tactica that was taken into the rules subforum and mostly everyone but a couple of people agreed it worked like I'm saying, the bigger general consensus is that I can have a Chaos Keyword army with both noise marines and rubrics and berserkers as troop choices, as again the common keyword is chaos, and in the Thousand sond army list it says that Rubrics that have the thousand sons legion are troops. So as long as you give them that keyword in a Chaos army, you could give berserkers also the Word eaters legion keyword and they would also be troops.
Again, nowere in the rules "Armys of XXXX" are defined. You have an ARMY, that shares keywords
kaintxu wrote: Let me be the one to stop you there. I have provided quotes on how armies are built, still need you guys to provide some for your argument. If you read the rulebook and all the quotes I have pasted, there is no such thing a "Chaos Army" or "ynarry Army", that is a term you are making up yourself, please point to me where in the rulebook it specifies that XXX army if completely made of units with such keyword.
All the rulebook says is that your battle forged army has to have a common faction keyword, it never talks about that the army you make based on XXX keyword suddenly becomes "XXX army". So that concept you have about "Am I deciding to do an Ynnari army?Again. yes" is wrong as that is not defined anywhere. You are basing this thought on how armies are deffined, but it seems you don't play Age of Sigmar where this has been around for a while, and until the "codices" came out, there was not such a thing as specific armies.
It really all comes to what your think it is to be "defined" by the rules, dude. As the passage I quoted before it's mentioned in the rulebook, so if you ask for proofs it all goes to what you value as a written rule or not.
"CHOOSE ARMIES: When choosing an army for a matched play game, your army must be battle-forges (pg 240) and its total points valor can not exceed the limit set for your game."
"ARMY FACTION: All of the units in a matched play army, with the exception of those that are UNALIGNED, must have a least one Faction Keyword in common (e.g. IMPERIUM or CHAOS), even though they may be in different detachments."
"BATTLE-FORGED ARMIES: If a mission you are playing instructs you to select a Battle-forged army, it means that you must organise all the units in detachments. ... To include a particular detachment in your army, simply organise some or all of your units so that they fit within the restriction and limitations detailed for a particular Detachment. ...."
Ecc.
There is no "XXX army" or whatsoever. Because they do not need to have an adjective for every army. That "Ynnari" army we are talking about is an adjective, which I interpret as "an army that you choose to be Ynnari following the appropriate rules". Again, I think it's only a grammar interpretation of some words, whether they are nouns or adjectives.
From my personal and private point of view, waiting a couple of lines of FAQs by those gentlemen from GW to clarify, I read the lines above, read the passage from the Ynnari page, and think: "They are using the term army for the totality of my detachments. So, no matter what I'm including, all will be part of my army. Do I want an Ynnari army? I think so. So all my units will be Ynnari".
I value what they say as rules even if these are just phrases like those above, taking as rule for what I see rather than what I do not see and assume there should be.
In friendship.
kaintxu wrote: Of course it workd as the Chaos legions, but I think you are also misinterpreting chaos legions. Actually if you go to the Chaos posts (there was a big argument also at the Thousand sons tactica that was taken into the rules subforum and mostly everyone but a couple of people agreed it worked like I'm saying, the bigger general consensus is that I can have a Chaos Keyword army with both noise marines and rubrics and berserkers as troop choices, as again the common keyword is chaos, and in the Thousand sond army list it says that Rubrics that have the thousand sons legion are troops. So as long as you give them that keyword in a Chaos army, you could give berserkers also the Word eaters legion keyword and they would also be troops.
Again, nowere in the rules "Armys of XXXX" are defined. You have an ARMY, that shares keywords
Yeah, ok, you could because of the good old "it's not written that I can not do it, so I'll do it".
I absolutely blame GW for not been enough explicative, but I really think you guys should not think it's how it works.
Like, player 1 says "My roster includes an EC's army (points towards 6 Noise Marines), a DG army (points towards 5 Plague Marines) and I also have two armies of World Eaters, one in each of my two detachments (points towards 8+8 Berzerkers)".
Seriously?
That said, it's pointless to continue much further. There are clear holes that need to be FAQed to clarify all that for now falls under common sense.
I agree there are holes and some FAQ would be good, but right now RAW as you say you are interpreting that adjective to be that all units have that word to get access to it, but that is an assumption.
RAW you creater your army, and the only rule to create and army is common faction keyword. Ynanri army is not even bolded, nor it says all units have to have the Ynnari keyword, so again that is your assumption and I agree it could be RAI, but it is not RAW.
For the chaos issue, rules clearly state that those list of units can be given the specific legion keyword, and if plague marines have death guard legion, then they are troops, so I could easily make a detachment that combines different legions under the Chaos faction keyword and there is nothing going against that right now.
Anyway, lets focus in some Ynnari tactics as we will never get to an agreement here.
I bought this sucker and really want to use him but it's not easy. Only turning up when something dies is awkward and it seems you have to build your army (whatever one of those is lol) around him.
The approach that seems best to me is to use a Serpent rush.
-Advance 4 serpents full of goodies right into the enemy lines.
-Shoot all the shuri cannons at the weakest enemy unit.
-If it dies the Yncarne comes out and is hopefully not the closest unit to a lot of the enemy due to the Serpents being in their face.
-If you don't kill a unit your opponent will likely down a serpent in their turn and the Yncarne can appear behind the unit that was forced to disembark.
It worked to get him out in a game I had against DE but then they shot me off the board. Before he went down though the Yncarne was an absolute beast in combat, not many characters hit harder.
People made this mistake in 7th as well. Never spend points on something you intend to just sacrifice. It's always the wrong choice.
The units you want to soulburst off most, are your opponents. Then your msu units next to each other. Never kill your own.
This. Very much this.
I would also add that I don't think MSU is always the way to go: you trigger SfD more often but it's not used as well by a min sized unit as by a big one. The best things to SfD with are big units of Firedragons or Wraithguard getting to shoot twice or Shining Spears and WarpSpiders that can jump to safey after killing something.
I bought this sucker and really want to use him but it's not easy. Only turning up when something dies is awkward and it seems you have to build your army (whatever one of those is lol) around him.
The approach that seems best to me is to use a Serpent rush.
-Advance 4 serpents full of goodies right into the enemy lines.
-Shoot all the shuri cannons at the weakest enemy unit.
-If it dies the Yncarne comes out and is hopefully not the closest unit to a lot of the enemy due to the Serpents being in their face.
-If you don't kill a unit your opponent will likely down a serpent in their turn and the Yncarne can appear behind the unit that was forced to disembark.
It worked to get him out in a game I had against DE but then they shot me off the board. Before he went down though the Yncarne was an absolute beast in combat, not many characters hit harder.
I'm also looking for a way to use the Yncarne as it's an awesome model and a terrific all-round piece. The problem I found to be that he cannot charge the turn you set him up, even if you later manage to make him Soulburst he can't use that to charge.
The solution could either be a WS force like yours or playing an extremely aggressive list that maximise his presence and his psychic phase, in both you have to use his 9 Wounds and screen him.
But yes, it's like build an army around him... and more importantly it's like him or Yvraine, due to the limit to only one WotP per turn.
People made this mistake in 7th as well. Never spend points on something you intend to just sacrifice. It's always the wrong choice.
The units you want to soulburst off most, are your opponents. Then your msu units next to each other. Never kill your own.
This. Very much this.
I would also add that I don't think MSU is always the way to go: you trigger SfD more often but it's not used as well by a min sized unit as by a big one. The best things to SfD with are big units of Firedragons or Wraithguard getting to shoot twice or Shining Spears and WarpSpiders that can jump to safey after killing something.
I have to agree. Units from which you should get Soulbursting have to be you opponent's. For this reason I'm tinkering my Ynnari more like a fast-hitting elite force rather than pure MSU, which also has the flaw to not get multiple Soulburst actions (and I'm a MSU long-time fan).
Previously i was talking about Hellions, just as example of the type of units I'm thinking about.
Yes I agree that larger units making the most of the soulburst is good. But there is a lot to be said for dark eldar beasts as 1 man units running around among your lines. Razorwing flocks in particular are awesome at 7 points per unit. Run them in tandem with your combat dudes. Shining spears especially. Charge the flock in first. Opponent either overwatches the flock and kills it, letting the spears or whatever soulburst to shoot again, or they take the charge allowing the unit to charge in unhindered. 7 points ain't going to break the bank
Yeah I agree, the only two things that can be said for sure in a Yncarne list are that it needs to be very aggressive and not include Yvraine (she should be in every other Ynnari list so deserves a break).
I've had a little success with the Yncarne so far. It's true that he can't charge on the turn he shows up, but if he shows up on the enemy's turn then you're fine, and often they won't have the firepower left to seriously threaten him even if they can target him.
Galef - jetbikes move 16" - you need not advance with them anyways. However - if you do and kill a unit within 7" you will get to shoot twice instead of once - clearly better than +1 BS on the advance. Battle focus is trash. it's too bad it doesn't let you advance with heavy weapons and shoot - then we would actually have a choice to make.
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Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Can Word of the Pheonix affect units that are Ynnari but don't have strength from death? Like War Walkers for example.
Two units that I think would be great to cast it on are Wraithguard with D-scythes or Dark Reapers. A blob of 10 Scythe Guard could be made to move and advance twice for a 10+ 2d6" move and still shoot. That's a 25" threat range, fortune and conceal would make them pretty tough. 10 Dark Reapers firing twice seems nasty too.
No - you have to have the strength from death rule to use a soul-burst action - even from word of the phoenix.
Dionysodorus wrote: I've had a little success with the Yncarne so far. It's true that he can't charge on the turn he shows up, but if he shows up on the enemy's turn then you're fine, and often they won't have the firepower left to seriously threaten him even if they can target him.
I have found the Yncarne to be insanely good. So far I've killed 2 hammerheads and 5 crisis suits (in 1 game), a stormraven and a bunch of terminators (another game), a monolith and a few necron characters, and even more stuff that I can't remember. The key is to utilize soulburst to fight twice whenever possible by dunking small units or characters while still being within range of another unit. This requires you to fully utilize your large base and full 8" fly movement.
I run him alongside mono Harlequins and it's a great combo since I put myself on top of them turn one and then dare them to pop one of my transports.
I think my biggest problem with the Yncarne is that Yvraine is just so powerful. Yvraine has been an amazing utility piece for me, moving units to get the charge, denying psychic powers like crazy, letting a unit shoot twice. Because words of the phoenix can only be used once, the power Yncarne and Yvraine drops a lot when both are on the field.
That is why I think should be one or another, and the army needs to adapt to the choice.
I kinda like Ynnari Harlequins-based army in the perspective of fast-hitting, summon-Yncarne-on-enemy turn strategy. If you could make an acceptable alpha strike that cripples the enemy you can probably make out alive without the Rising Crescendo rule, which is absolutely amazing and it's not advisable to renounce it in normal circumstances...
But probably the setting with Yvraine, reapers, flocks etc is easier to pull out.
I feel the Hemlock is a nice piece to have there, it should pair up with something extremely fast and deadly in order to help it out with conceal and two happy, little D-Scythes. But what unit... Skyweavers? Shining Spears? It probably has to be bikes, but also a WS with Fire Dragons on it sounds good.
I would also add that I don't think MSU is always the way to go: you trigger SfD more often but it's not used as well by a min sized unit as by a big one. The best things to SfD with are big units of Firedragons or Wraithguard getting to shoot twice or Shining Spears and WarpSpiders that can jump to safey after killing something.
I'd agree with you if units of Shining Spears or Warp Spiders could actually kill any units. (don't bother saying 10 Shining Spears, that's 430 points).
Pick a unit and doom it and it is unlikely to survive.
Conceal gives spiders -2 to hit in retaliation. Shining spears with ancestors grace reroll 1s to shoot and fight, with rerolled all wounds against monsters and vehicle. Guide on spiders helps on overwatch as well if they get charged then they can fly out of the combat the next turn. Or you just use the mobility of both units to sfd 20 inches away after killing a unit.
Both units offer great mobility, flexibility and synergy.
Yeah, with psychic support and/or help from stuff like Night Spinners and Missile launchers (that can reach anywhere and damage anything) you will be wiping whole units to trigger SfD.
I would also add that I don't think MSU is always the way to go: you trigger SfD more often but it's not used as well by a min sized unit as by a big one. The best things to SfD with are big units of Firedragons or Wraithguard getting to shoot twice or Shining Spears and WarpSpiders that can jump to safey after killing something.
I'd agree with you if units of Shining Spears or Warp Spiders could actually kill any units. (don't bother saying 10 Shining Spears, that's 430 points).
Jetbike units are 9 models max. But then how would you ever know about that, eh?
Pro tip if you have not figured this out already. if your opponent is being aggressive its absolutely possible to get him into combat immediately, through Herioc intervention.
His ability prevents *charging* the turn he arrives. However, herioc intervention states.. in summary.. after enemy units have charged, a character within 3" of enemy models may make a 3" pile in move to the closest enemy model.. The beauty of this, is that it does not even have to be a charging unit .. you just spawn and hope your opponent was aggressive for the upcoming charges. Works amazingly well. *Note, you can only do this on your opponents turn.. because herioc intervention can only be used when your opponent charges.
I find it incredibly challenging to find a reason not to bring him into a list. at 337 pts he is a steal. Auras, psychic, and a monster in CC.
So is it not worth running mono Harlequins? And just better to run them as Yannari? I tried looking for some tactics on just them and all im seeing is to mix with Ynnari
Pro tip if you have not figured this out already. if your opponent is being aggressive its absolutely possible to get him into combat immediately, through Herioc intervention.
I didn't thought about that. Worth to try against hyper-aggressive stuff like alpha stike genos and similar. TY.
str00dles1 wrote:So is it not worth running mono Harlequins? And just better to run them as Yannari? I tried looking for some tactics on just them and all im seeing is to mix with Ynnari
As a 100% mono Harlequin player I personally find their rule Rising Crescendo too useful to give it up, even for an amazing rule like SfD. Their ability to advance-charge, fall back and do whatever you see fit is key for them, which are still very squishy and must pick their fights with caution.
Yeah rising crescendo is really good.. I am not totally sure a full harliquin army benefits more from Ynnari.
I think Ynnari shines when you have a mix of shooting/melee. For the flexibility of SfD. Craftworlds benefit the most from being Ynnari imo, next is Dark Eldar, but power from pain is no joke either.
Wyldcarde wrote: With psychic backup both units become formidable.
Pick a unit and doom it and it is unlikely to survive.
Conceal gives spiders -2 to hit in retaliation. Shining spears with ancestors grace reroll 1s to shoot and fight, with rerolled all wounds against monsters and vehicle. Guide on spiders helps on overwatch as well if they get charged then they can fly out of the combat the next turn. Or you just use the mobility of both units to sfd 20 inches away after killing a unit.
Both units offer great mobility, flexibility and synergy.
So how exactly are you getting 2 Warlocks and 2 farseers that both, keep up with those units, and then cheat by casting the same power more than once while miraculously actually guaranteeing the power casts successfully?
"This thing is great when unlikely and illegal things happen" isn't very strong endorsement.
Nowhere in what you quoted did I talk about casting duplicate spells on either of those units. Conceal is in an aura. Hemlocks can cast conceal. Or warlocks on bikes? Both keep up just fine. Pick a flank and strike down it?
Conceal casts on 6. With a cp reroll it's likely to cast.
Farseers doom, guide and fortune from 24 inches away. They don't have to keep up. Eldrad gets 3 casts, rerolls to one of those casts and +1 to future psychic rolls on successful casts.
Yvraine gets +1 to cast with ancient grace being almost as good as guide for a handy double up to guide if need be.
With command point rerolls eldar psychic has proven to be pretty reliable for me so far. The one cast per spell per turn is annoying but with smart positioning and good play it isn't hard to work around it and get what spells you need on what units you need.
One question about Yvraine.
I plan to run an "everyone is fast" Ynnari army, with Harlequins on Starweavers, Skyweavers, Striking Scorpions (deepstriking), the Yncarne, Scourges and Hellions, with maybe only Dark Reapers and a Wraithknight as footsloggers.
Is it unwise to put Yvraine on a Starweaver? I know she must disembark to use her powers, but on foot she could keep with the rest of the army. Maybe turn 1 Starweaver scoot and 2nd turn disembark into a relatively safe place.
Another one: I want to use an Autarch to give some use to the poor Visarch. Which one do you think would work better in my kind of list: an Autarch on foot to provide rerolls to the Wraithknight and Dark Reapers, or an Autarch with wings to be flexible and able to support also the Scorpions (and maybe get some Fusion Gun shots)?
No - you have to have the strength from death rule to use a soul-burst action - even from word of the phoenix.
You definitely don't. It seems like a mistake but the only limitation is that it has to be a Ynnari unit, it does not require the SfD rule.
War Walkers with Guide and WotP are cool.
Hummm - if that is correct starcannon warwalkers just became the best unit in the codex. However - I don't think the spell is intended to work like this. I think this will probably be discussed in a FAQ at some point. Plus the interactions with a wraith-knight will be flat broken.
As a Harlequin player by default, I can see no harm on embarking Yvraine on a Starweaver like she was a Shadowseer and disembark her later, even more considering the fast-paced army you run. Like in Quins' armies you need the seer mostly after your clowns are down, the same could be in this case.
And notably if you manage to make the Yncarne appear early, you can easily compensate Yvraine's missed WotP with the one the Yncarne can manifest.
For the Autarch issue I'd opt for the one on foot, as you don't have a Farseer to guide the reapers or the WK and the Autarch's re-roll of 1s is a good replacer. I wouldn't worry too much for the scorpions, they could just be a diversion and if in cover they can manage things alone quite well (or draw away some fire, which is equally good).
Bloodshade wrote: As a Harlequin player by default, I can see no harm on embarking Yvraine on a Starweaver like she was a Shadowseer and disembark her later, even more considering the fast-paced army you run. Like in Quins' armies you need the seer mostly after your clowns are down, the same could be in this case.
And notably if you manage to make the Yncarne appear early, you can easily compensate Yvraine's missed WotP with the one the Yncarne can manifest.
For the Autarch issue I'd opt for the one on foot, as you don't have a Farseer to guide the reapers or the WK and the Autarch's re-roll of 1s is a good replacer. I wouldn't worry too much for the scorpions, they could just be a diversion and if in cover they can manage things alone quite well (or draw away some fire, which is equally good).
Mmm nice, this goes along with what I was thinking. Thanks!! I think Wraithknight+Dark reapers+Death Jester should make turn 1 Yncarne a relatively easy prospect
In this scenario, would you arm the foot Autarch with a Reaper Launcher for support (wouldn't love to maim the Visarch for that, though ), twin Avenger Shuriken catapults or bare bones to save points?
Bloodshade wrote: As a Harlequin player by default, I can see no harm on embarking Yvraine on a Starweaver like she was a Shadowseer and disembark her later, even more considering the fast-paced army you run. Like in Quins' armies you need the seer mostly after your clowns are down, the same could be in this case.
And notably if you manage to make the Yncarne appear early, you can easily compensate Yvraine's missed WotP with the one the Yncarne can manifest.
For the Autarch issue I'd opt for the one on foot, as you don't have a Farseer to guide the reapers or the WK and the Autarch's re-roll of 1s is a good replacer. I wouldn't worry too much for the scorpions, they could just be a diversion and if in cover they can manage things alone quite well (or draw away some fire, which is equally good).
Agree on Yvraine, she is fine in a starweaver.. turn 2 you will be out anyway and her powers aren't good if no one is around anyway.
Do you even need the autarch.. i mean if you are running an autarch on a bike.. or anything around 100+ points.. you might as well just run the Visarch for the fun of doing so!
The Autarch should have an actual role, of course, because being a walking re-rolling 1s station is not worth his points.
My inheritance of previous editions of the game would suggest to give him a fusion gun for safety, but in 8th edition 1-shotting vehicle basically never happens.
I'd probably think of what your "static" part of the army needs and choose something that covers that. That could even be running him on bike anyways (for relocating purposes) with a clutch fusion gun and a laser lance if you feel him like charging some approaching threat to save your reapers.
No - you have to have the strength from death rule to use a soul-burst action - even from word of the phoenix.
You definitely don't. It seems like a mistake but the only limitation is that it has to be a Ynnari unit, it does not require the SfD rule.
War Walkers with Guide and WotP are cool.
Hummm - if that is correct starcannon warwalkers just became the best unit in the codex. However - I don't think the spell is intended to work like this. I think this will probably be discussed in a FAQ at some point. Plus the interactions with a wraith-knight will be flat broken.
Ok, so I did a little research...
On June 23rd the WarhammerTV Twitch channel played a battle between Ynnari and Astra Militarum.
At 22:01 - Chris Casts Word of the Phoenix on a unit of War Walkers (which do not have SfD)
At 22:36 - Successfully Cast the power (Perils to Yvraine)
At 22:59 - A chat member asks a question about whether or not Chris was able to cast that power on the Warwalkers because they do not have SfD. The game is paused for an official ruling.
At 25:05 - Rob from GW states that Strength from Death is a rule on the model. Word of the phoenix says you can make a Ynnari unit Soulburst. Rob from GW allows the Word of the Phoenix to work on non-SfD units.
That's about as official as it needs to be. I think they believe the wording to be clear. At least after listening to Rob explain it.
Soulbursting Wraithknights (or whatever) are totally a thing!
Wow... I thouht that was just an obvious oversight.. but to hear GW play it that way......
BTW.. warwalkers are not the optimal unit for this. I think a unit of hornets would be. OR getting a dbl move on a Wraithknight for turn 1 charge would be the better ways to go.
I mean, if you want to talk optimal we've got to start looking at the Revenant Titan and Vampire Hunter.
Of course, you probably don't really want to be taking three double starcannon or pulse laser light vehicles -- that's a lot of points on pretty fragile bodies. I think you probably want to mostly just use WotP to give an extra shooting phase to units that you're already happy bringing. Like a shooty Wraithknight if you're into that, or a Crimson Hunter. A Hunter is a perfectly good unit by itself and basically has 4 bright lances.
Bloodshade wrote: The Autarch should have an actual role, of course, because being a walking re-rolling 1s station is not worth his points.
My inheritance of previous editions of the game would suggest to give him a fusion gun for safety, but in 8th edition 1-shotting vehicle basically never happens.
I'd probably think of what your "static" part of the army needs and choose something that covers that. That could even be running him on bike anyways (for relocating purposes) with a clutch fusion gun and a laser lance if you feel him like charging some approaching threat to save your reapers.
You know what? You just got me into buying a Hellion Skyboard to mount the Visarch on for a "biker" conversion He will look bitchin and the laser lance profile will make his sword justice.
Yvraine and a Revenant cost 1332 points, and that's allowing you to shoot twice and reroll 1s with a BS2+ model that is equipped with two 60" Heavy 2D6 S12 AP-4 D6 Damage pulsars and one 48" Heavy 2D6 S8 AP-2 D3 Damage cloudburst missile launcher. With split fire the fact that they're individual pulsars rather than twinlinked that other units take means you can shoot at six different units per turn. But you're still going to come up very short against 1332 points of horde.
You know what? You just got me into buying a Hellion Skyboard to mount the Visarch on for a "biker" conversion He will look bitchin and the laser lance profile will make his sword justice.
That's actually a brilliant idea!
"The surfing Visarch, who said Ynnari are boring? Join us, Ynnead stirs (on a skyboard for now)"
Yvraine should hire me as a PR manager and content creator at once.
Wyldcarde wrote: Yes I agree that larger units making the most of the soulburst is good. But there is a lot to be said for dark eldar beasts as 1 man units running around among your lines. Razorwing flocks in particular are awesome at 7 points per unit. Run them in tandem with your combat dudes. Shining spears especially. Charge the flock in first. Opponent either overwatches the flock and kills it, letting the spears or whatever soulburst to shoot again, or they take the charge allowing the unit to charge in unhindered. 7 points ain't going to break the bank
Indeed. The Razorwings are just security and a very cheap one.
Ynnaris conundrum is that when SfD triggers you want the biggest possible one to do it, but the 7" area is quite small. Hence there´s a tension going on.
My gut feeling is that its better to have a big scrum where you get more chances to trigger than betting on shooting because of proximity. Further Yncarne is a melee monster and brings a support bubble. I don´t agree that it´s either Yvraine or Yncarne. Rather does Yvraine enable a T1 Yncarne as she can propel a big unit into enemy lines. Well deployed they act as triggers and support for the Daemon. Next turn the rest of the melee host joins up. Another cheaper scenario is to propel a big screen of Razors into their line to tie them down and not shoot down our transports. On the topic if Yncarne there shooting is needed to summon it. Something Rangers and Death Jesters can do well.
Sending in shooters seem more risky as the natural control element of locking opponents in melee is absent. Shooters have their place, but as anti-tank and anti-aura generators imho. Better let the melee experts (e.g. Harlies or Wyches) bring Fusion Pistols as close to the trigger area as possible and capitalize on bonus shooting there over hoping a squad of Fire Dragons hovering by being able to.
Bloodshade wrote: 3WW full Starcannon are 363 points.
12 S6 AP-3 D3 at 36". Twice with WotP (cheapest is Yvraine at 132). 495 total.
I mean, it's an actually s**t storm for the enemy, but plain 1/4 of your army goes there.
I don't know, it's both a good and a bad idea.
Wraithknight with 2 star cannons and sun cannon. OMG - if you get pheonix off you have - 4d6 Str6 ap -3 d3 damage shots + 8 str 6 ap-3 3 damage shots. Holy moley!
Yeah that's busted - needs to be fixed. Should only affect units that can soulburst. I think players will get seriously tired of Writhknights shooting half their armor off the board with a single unit.
Yeah that's busted - needs to be fixed. Should only affect units that can soulburst. I think players will get seriously tired of Writhknights shooting half their armor off the board with a single unit.
I completely disagree. Other armies have their gimmicks, this is ours. also word of the phoenix allows all units to be able to soulburst, not just ones with Strength from Death. It's wonderful!
I didn't mention any FW units because I don't have the FW index (would like to, I have the feeling that Shadow Spectres coul be key for Ynnari, can anyone conferme?), so I took as example what a user said about WWs with WotP would be imbalanced.
And after reading what some of you wrote, I think that a WK is actually even better and arguably less squishy than 3 WW.
Question for FW book owners: do we have any FW vehicle of some kind that absolutely wrecks infantry mobs (let's say 30+) that we can use to cast WotP on it and take out a plain unit per turn? Would help a lot against Orks, Nids and IG. Something like 2 or 3D6 S4-5 shots (fired twice) would be good.
Splinter cannon cloud dancer jetbikes benefiting from doom can be very good anti horde.
Otherwise the only even slightly anti horde is a pheonix with nigjtshroud missiles 2d6ap-1 dmg1 twin shuricannons and can grab twin starcannons (very expensive over the stock pulse laser).
I didn't mention any FW units because I don't have the FW index (would like to, I have the feeling that Shadow Spectres coul be key for Ynnari, can anyone conferme?), so I took as example what a user said about WWs with WotP would be imbalanced.
And after reading what some of you wrote, I think that a WK is actually even better and arguably less squishy than 3 WW.
Question for FW book owners: do we have any FW vehicle of some kind that absolutely wrecks infantry mobs (let's say 30+) that we can use to cast WotP on it and take out a plain unit per turn? Would help a lot against Orks, Nids and IG. Something like 2 or 3D6 S4-5 shots (fired twice) would be good.
Shadow spectres are 14" move with a -1 to hit when shooting the unit. +3 save as well.
Armed with 18" range Str 6 ap-3 guns that on a hit roll an additional attack, max 3 hits per model.
Or they can be heavy flamers for d6Str 5 -1 ap each.
I feel they will be quite strong with psychic support. Conceal makes them -2 to hit. 2+ save in cover. Guide them and they are likely to be making 20+ shots a turn. And you don't really want to charge them either or you take 9d6 autohits. So I wouldn't say key to ynnari but definitely a potent weapon.
eosgreen wrote:hows the yncarne doing? hes expensive as hell but i haven't played any 8th yet, very busy.
He is a beast!!!! Definitely try and fit him into a list. He is not an easy model to field, he takes some tactical play and timing, but he can be devastating to your opponent.
being able to soulburst a model without SfD is most likely the reason why only 2 models have access to this spell.
it is redonks on hemlock and even crimson hunters.
I am not 100% sold on transports or windriders anymore for my ynarri. SFD also appears to benefit foot harlequins/druhkari the most.
I have 2 venoms with 5 warriors (1 blaster) in each. while putting out a ton of splinter fire a turn the transports are almost double the number of points of the warriors.
I am struggling to find really solid troop choices. Kabalites seems like the go to, or troupes.
the army can be very cheesy, with 3 formations you can easily run 6 or so hemlocks with yvraine and cheap throw away Hqs if you want. Being able to WotP a wraithknight may bring him back into the light for me. he is a ton of points and his firepower isn't all that impressive. for less than his points you get 2 voidravens (amazing) with 2lances and d6 missiles a turn nevermind the bomb. Voidraven has been my PVP almost every game now.
I am interested to see what lists are working for people right now. I've been playing for fun but i can definitely see some shenanigans with the army.
Wyldcarde wrote: Shadow spectres are 14" move with a -1 to hit when shooting the unit. +3 save as well.
Armed with 18" range Str 6 ap-3 guns that on a hit roll an additional attack, max 3 hits per model.
Or they can be heavy flamers for d6Str 5 -1 ap each.
I feel they will be quite strong with psychic support. Conceal makes them -2 to hit. 2+ save in cover. Guide them and they are likely to be making 20+ shots a turn. And you don't really want to charge them either or you take 9d6 autohits. So I wouldn't say key to ynnari but definitely a potent weapon.
Thanks!
Well, could be key in a sense that I personally feel the Ynnari should work as an elitary force rathen than a MSU one, so I was looking for effective units that could fit multiple roles (like them with their rifles/flamers). This is because I think that with small units like 3-size Windriders the amount of shooting you get from a caused soulburst action is negligible AND you only get one soulburst, not one for each.
Need to test this idea of course, I'm still tinkering around it and how could razorwings fit in it.
BergerFett wrote: being able to soulburst a model without SfD is most likely the reason why only 2 models have access to this spell.
it is redonks on hemlock and even crimson hunters.
I am not 100% sold on transports or windriders anymore for my ynarri. SFD also appears to benefit foot harlequins/druhkari the most.
I have 2 venoms with 5 warriors (1 blaster) in each. while putting out a ton of splinter fire a turn the transports are almost double the number of points of the warriors.
I am struggling to find really solid troop choices. Kabalites seems like the go to, or troupes.
the army can be very cheesy, with 3 formations you can easily run 6 or so hemlocks with yvraine and cheap throw away Hqs if you want. Being able to WotP a wraithknight may bring him back into the light for me. he is a ton of points and his firepower isn't all that impressive. for less than his points you get 2 voidravens (amazing) with 2lances and d6 missiles a turn nevermind the bomb. Voidraven has been my PVP almost every game now.
I am interested to see what lists are working for people right now. I've been playing for fun but i can definitely see some shenanigans with the army.
Hemlock has been for me. As well as D scythe wraithguard.
Wyldcarde wrote: Shadow spectres are 14" move with a -1 to hit when shooting the unit. +3 save as well.
Armed with 18" range Str 6 ap-3 guns that on a hit roll an additional attack, max 3 hits per model.
Or they can be heavy flamers for d6Str 5 -1 ap each.
I feel they will be quite strong with psychic support. Conceal makes them -2 to hit. 2+ save in cover. Guide them and they are likely to be making 20+ shots a turn. And you don't really want to charge them either or you take 9d6 autohits. So I wouldn't say key to ynnari but definitely a potent weapon.
Thanks!
Well, could be key in a sense that I personally feel the Ynnari should work as an elitary force rathen than a MSU one, so I was looking for effective units that could fit multiple roles (like them with their rifles/flamers). This is because I think that with small units like 3-size Windriders the amount of shooting you get from a caused soulburst action is negligible AND you only get one soulburst, not one for each.
Need to test this idea of course, I'm still tinkering around it and how could razorwings fit in it.
Wraithgard and firedragons are really the units that benifit from soulburst the most. They are the most able to self proc it + WG are tough enough that putting them in a big unit isn't a terrible idea.
Wraithgard and firedragons are really the units that benifit from soulburst the most. They are the most able to self proc it + WG are tough enough that putting them in a big unit isn't a terrible idea.
Yeah. Basically any very specialized unit is optimal, as it has the most chances to do its work and be able to get a soulburst and do it twice. This is why I think Elite > MSU with SfD.
I didn't mention any FW units because I don't have the FW index (would like to, I have the feeling that Shadow Spectres coul be key for Ynnari, can anyone conferme?), so I took as example what a user said about WWs with WotP would be imbalanced.
And after reading what some of you wrote, I think that a WK is actually even better and arguably less squishy than 3 WW.
Question for FW book owners: do we have any FW vehicle of some kind that absolutely wrecks infantry mobs (let's say 30+) that we can use to cast WotP on it and take out a plain unit per turn? Would help a lot against Orks, Nids and IG. Something like 2 or 3D6 S4-5 shots (fired twice) would be good.
Shadow spectres are 14" move with a -1 to hit when shooting the unit. +3 save as well.
Armed with 18" range Str 6 ap-3 guns that on a hit roll an additional attack, max 3 hits per model.
Or they can be heavy flamers for d6Str 5 -1 ap each.
I feel they will be quite strong with psychic support. Conceal makes them -2 to hit. 2+ save in cover. Guide them and they are likely to be making 20+ shots a turn. And you don't really want to charge them either or you take 9d6 autohits. So I wouldn't say key to ynnari but definitely a potent weapon.
Hmm I thought Shadow spectres only has 12" move?
Also, has it been confirmed you can use Word of the Phoenix on models/units without SfD? I know in 7th you cannot use it on vehicles and the verbiage of WotP didn't change (I think).
Yes, it has been done during official GW stream on Twitch and confirmed by them as someone in chat asked explicitly.
You can cast WotP on any Ynnari unit.
Bloodshade wrote: Yes, it has been done during official GW stream on Twitch and confirmed by them as someone in chat asked explicitly.
You can cast WotP on any Ynnari unit.
Yeah...I read back a page or two and saw it. Thanks! Soulbursting WK!!! Now it makes more sense a WK is more expensive than a IK.
Shining spears and warp spiders have been my sfd MVP so far.
They both are short range so if their target dies they are likely to trigger. But their mobility is the huge bonus. Both are able to get into the 7" range easily and can then either sfd to shoot again or retreat back 20" or even propel into the enemies back line. I had an imperial guard player kill my shining spears after they destroyed 2 Valkyries only for the nearby warpspider squad warp jump 20 inches straight at his tanks and screening conscript blob. Next turn they moved up, hosed the conscripts to 3 left before charging and killing them to then shoot up the tanks before consolidating into 2 of them.
Wyldcarde wrote: Shining spears and warp spiders have been my sfd MVP so far.
They both are short range so if their target dies they are likely to trigger. But their mobility is the huge bonus. Both are able to get into the 7" range easily and can then either sfd to shoot again or retreat back 20" or even propel into the enemies back line. I had an imperial guard player kill my shining spears after they destroyed 2 Valkyries only for the nearby warpspider squad warp jump 20 inches straight at his tanks and screening conscript blob. Next turn they moved up, hosed the conscripts to 3 left before charging and killing them to then shoot up the tanks before consolidating into 2 of them.
How do you feel shining spears compare to other jetbikes like reavers or skyweavers.
Very well. They are more expensive but you get a lot of bonuses for the extra price.
A few of the changes made to the rules have really benefited them. The fact that they can fire all their weapons now and twin linked being double shots means each guy gets an extra 4 shots a turn from the catapaults which still benefit from their tank hunter and any psychic cast on them. The 4+ inv save and 2 wounds makes them more durable and their lances pack a punch lacked by the other options.
They do draw a lot of fire but can easily absorb it with some average rolling. and if the opponent doesn't kill them they will run amok.
BergerFett wrote: being able to soulburst a model without SfD is most likely the reason why only 2 models have access to this spell.
it is redonks on hemlock and even crimson hunters.
I am not 100% sold on transports or windriders anymore for my ynarri. SFD also appears to benefit foot harlequins/druhkari the most.
I have 2 venoms with 5 warriors (1 blaster) in each. while putting out a ton of splinter fire a turn the transports are almost double the number of points of the warriors.
I am struggling to find really solid troop choices. Kabalites seems like the go to, or troupes.
the army can be very cheesy, with 3 formations you can easily run 6 or so hemlocks with yvraine and cheap throw away Hqs if you want. Being able to WotP a wraithknight may bring him back into the light for me. he is a ton of points and his firepower isn't all that impressive. for less than his points you get 2 voidravens (amazing) with 2lances and d6 missiles a turn nevermind the bomb. Voidraven has been my PVP almost every game now.
I am interested to see what lists are working for people right now. I've been playing for fun but i can definitely see some shenanigans with the army.
I´m thinking a big flock of Razors to tie them down T1 (preferably with an escorting Beastmaster) and transported Troupes and Wyches to charge in T2. Then adding flyers to the threat list as target Saturation is important for expensive and brittle elvsies.
Wyldcarde wrote: Shining spears and warp spiders have been my sfd MVP so far.
They both are short range so if their target dies they are likely to trigger. But their mobility is the huge bonus. Both are able to get into the 7" range easily and can then either sfd to shoot again or retreat back 20" or even propel into the enemies back line. I had an imperial guard player kill my shining spears after they destroyed 2 Valkyries only for the nearby warpspider squad warp jump 20 inches straight at his tanks and screening conscript blob. Next turn they moved up, hosed the conscripts to 3 left before charging and killing them to then shoot up the tanks before consolidating into 2 of them.
How do you feel shining spears compare to other jetbikes like reavers or skyweavers.
Windriders just seem bad. Skyweavers seem generally a bit worse than Spears. They're not nearly as shooty inside 12" and they're not comparable in CC without an expensive upgrade. They're significantly more durable against many weapons, and aren't bothered nearly as much by plasma, though they're still really vulnerable to bolter fire. Probably still worth taking since they can move 22" and charge; they might be pretty good for trying to tie things up as your other units close in. Basic Reavers are really unimpressive -- they're Windrider-level. Lots of guns will remove a whole model per wound with no save. Their special weapons seem like a much worse way to try to take these than infantry in Venoms or Raiders. Their upgrades are kind of interesting and you'd probably want to take as many grav-talons as possible no matter what.
I am really not in love with windriders right now. I am just not sure what to take instead.
On paper the stuff is sort of unimpressive. I get the buff stacking from WotP and some of the eldar seer. I have been leaning more towards a kabalite warrior spam. They are cheap, wound most things on 4s, wound vehicles on 6s. Just volumes and volumes of fire.
Scourges are definitely interesting but I am unsure how to build them. Plus if you go with all blasters or all lances you need to buy those bits.
Fire warriors and dark reapers seem amazing but im not a fan of the metal/finecast models and part of me really thinks that ynnari are the future for aeldari and the aspect warriors may never see production again.
I don't mind windriders. I think they are basically on point when you look at the cost of models throughout many armies and our range. Speed is one of the higher taxes on models. I have been running Shurikan windriders 3x3 with my Ynnari, and they have done just fine. Enough range to keep behind my forward line, speed to flank and pick off characters or grab objectives. They aren't lets bring max scatpacks to win games anymore, but they shouldn't be.
I think the cost of bikes for characters is egregious. And I think they messed up the warlock conclave really badly. There is no reason to take a conclave over just single warlocks. I guess maybe a slightly larger aura? but only slightly with a bunch of downside to doing so (like losing character status). If you look at power levels. They match 9-10 warlocks in a conclave to the same PL as 2 Wraithknights or Imperial knights. I find it hard to believe they would match up on the table. (maybe i am totaly wrong... i hope so i loved my conclave ha!)
Windriders can bring most shuriken cannons for their points compared to other units. I played 3 games with Saim Hann already and I don't see why they are "bad". They gained increased threat range, they can proc SfD, and can fall back from melee and shoot. They're pretty excellent. D2 spam is a counter match up for them but that's something to overcome as you can't do much about it.
They're better than Warp Spiders by far because '24 range&Fly is just better.
I think the cost of bikes for characters is egregious
That I can agree with. However, you do gain combination of Smite, 22 Move and SfD for Farseer or Laser Lance+Fusion gun+Catapults + Charge + SFD for Jetbike Autarch, meaning enemy characters/backline are never completely safe. Same for Shining Spears - jumping behind enemy line, killing something and SfD'ing 22 inches away is hilarious.
Plus there are not obvious advantages - for example, Vindicare wounds jetbike characters on 3+ instead of 2+, etc.
Shadenuat wrote: Windriders can bring most shuriken cannons for their points compared to other units. I played 3 games with Saim Hann already and I don't see why they are "bad". They gained increased threat range, they can proc SfD, and can fall back from melee and shoot. They're pretty excellent. D2 spam is a counter match up for them but that's something to overcome as you can't do much about it.
They're better than Warp Spiders by far because '24 range&Fly is just better.
Warp Spiders have Fly and a 7+4D6 movement, if they use their jump generators... so let's not paint them out to be too bad here.
I happen to agree with you on windriders though. Still good, just not undercosted and game breaking anymore.
Gangrel767 wrote: Warp Spiders have Fly and a 7+4D6 movement, if they use their jump generators... so let's not paint them out to be too bad here.
I happen to agree with you on windriders though. Still good, just not undercosted and game breaking anymore.
Spiders gain Fly only for 1 phase, so them able to shoot after Fall Back is a FAQ material for now.
Won't say Spiders are "bad" either, but their move is random and as I played both units together I thought that changing Spiders to another Windrider unit would be so much better.
Lack of Deep Strike also gives me butthurt and "*f eldar bias" moments since units with plasma, monoliths, name-whatever with lots of shots and good AP can DS, but Warp Spiders with their '12 inch guns can't DS because derp.
Shadenuat wrote: Windriders can bring most shuriken cannons for their points compared to other units. I played 3 games with Saim Hann already and I don't see why they are "bad". They gained increased threat range, they can proc SfD, and can fall back from melee and shoot. They're pretty excellent. D2 spam is a counter match up for them but that's something to overcome as you can't do much about it.
They're better than Warp Spiders by far because '24 range&Fly is just better.
I mean, just about every Imperial army is going to have some way of knocking them down very easily from well outside their range. Yes, they're overpowered, but note that a scion command squad (64 points and 1 order from a 40 point tempestor) expects to kill 5 Windriders (worth a bit over 150 points) in one volley -- even a 10-man Troops squad makes back all of their points in a single volley not even counting the lasguns. Artillery tends to make back about half its points in a single turn of shooting at them. Space Marine flyers with twin assault cannons do a number on them. Celestine can move 24" and charge them, wiping out a whole squad of 3 more often than not (and heavy flamering another). So that's like half of the armies in the game.
Other Eldar just thank you for the free points. A Hemlock expects to kill more than 3 Windriders with its guns alone. A Razorwing Jetfighter with disintegrator cannons expects to make back almost all of its points in a single round of shooting at Windriders. The Tantalus is also armed with D2 weapons, and looks like an easy choice for many lists if people have the model. Tau similarly have a bunch of fast or deep striking weapons good for killing Windriders. Chaos has easy access to some very fast CC, including Heldrakes who come with Baleflamers. Tyranids are likewise going to be able to get at the Windriders very quickly once they come into range. I guess Windriders might not be suicidal against Orks and some Necron lists?
Meanwhile what are you getting out of your Windriders in exchange for this incredible fragility? About 50% more firepower per point than what your basic transport provides.
So i did a bunch of maths... comparing Shurikan cannons, Twin catapults, and Splinter Cannons (corsair option) on bikes.
I found it extremely interesting that at T3 the catapult has a slight advantage.. at T4.. the Shurikan cannon has a slight advantage.. but basically the Splintercannon is more consistent and better the rest of the time.
Even looking at vehicles. Assuming most are around T5+ The splinter cannons start doing relatively the same amount of wounds .9 vs 1-1.3 on average.
This comparison was done with 3+ saves. Shurikans take the cake at 2+ saves, and Splinter weapons only get better the worse the save.
Anyway.. thought I would share. May try some Corsair Splinter Bikes next game in place of windriders.
Dionysodorus wrote: I mean, just about every Imperial army is going to have some way of knocking them down very easily from well outside their range.
A truck coming down the road and hitting me with a case full of bikes would also end things quickly - so might prepare beforehand and either lay down and die or start collecting a battalion of Wave Serpents.
Sure, your breakdown is correct from math, but it's also quite anecdotal and sporthammer biased. We're not talking about whole army consisting of nothing but Windriders, and taking down dangerous parts of enemy army compared to your own is the basics of the tactics, eh?
But let's break it down per examples:
- Scions. I assume it's DS so the problem is screening. But let's not forget that every time a biker unit would be wiped, another near it would SfD and shoot, possible with split fire, somewhat bringing the points of a lost unit back.
- Artillery, not sure which one exactly you mean.
- SM flyers, this one is interesting - Strafing Run doesn't affect units with Fly, so even in Hover some of them hit on 3's and 4's depending if they moved or not.
TBH, I am more worried with Razorbacks with Twin AC for 100 pts.
- Celestine - Sisters are the rarest army in existence. Of course you can just add her to any army, but that's just 1 character - you won't meet 10 Celestines.
- Hemlock's range is '16-18. If he goes straight on to get bikes, he's in my threat range. He can Smite, but we can Deny in '24 with a re-roll.
- Tantalus - 350 pts for one vehicle. Possibly a huge squad of bikes dead in a turn, so that's just about who gets to go first and luck.
- Tau don't really have anything. I play against them since 2008 and best they have are Vespids and Hazard suits. Vespids are not that shooty, Hazards are expensive, just like Crisis suits are nowadays.
- Chaos, Helldrakes are nothing. Already played against Leviathans - Butcher cannons+Warpflamers wound on 2+, D2, and mortal wounds, and -2 morale so even with Farseer +1 Ld that's 4-6 bikes dead a turn. Terrific but managed to outshoot them before they killed me. Wave Serpents with Dragons are excellent for distraction since D2 is pretty worthless against Wave Serpents.
Nyds, Orks&Necrons haven't played yet against them.
Meanwhile what are you getting out of your Windriders in exchange for this incredible fragility?
Oh come on. "Incredible Fragility" is cultists/firewarriors. Two wounds with 4+ and T4 is better than most of our aspect warriors. For example, it's a price of 2 Banshees.
Dionysodorus wrote: I mean, just about every Imperial army is going to have some way of knocking them down very easily from well outside their range.
A truck coming down the road and hitting me with a case full of bikes would also end things quickly - so might prepare beforehand and either lay down and die or start collecting a battalion of Wave Serpents.
Sure, your breakdown is correct from math, but it's also quite anecdotal and sporthammer biased. We're not talking about whole army consisting of nothing but Windriders, and taking down dangerous parts of enemy army compared to your own is the basics of the tactics, eh?
But let's break it down per examples:
- Scions. I assume it's DS so the problem is screening. But let's not forget that every time a biker unit would be wiped, another near it would SfD and shoot, possible with split fire, somewhat bringing the points of a lost unit back.
- Artillery, not sure which one exactly you mean.
- SM flyers, this one is interesting - Strafing Run doesn't affect units with Fly, so even in Hover some of them hit on 3's and 4's depending if they moved or not.
TBH, I am more worried with Razorbacks with Twin AC for 100 pts.
- Celestine - Sisters are the rarest army in existence. Of course you can just add her to any army, but that's just 1 character - you won't meet 10 Celestines.
- Hemlock's range is '16-18. If he goes straight on to get bikes, he's in my threat range. He can Smite, but we can Deny in '24 with a re-roll.
- Tantalus - 350 pts for one vehicle. Possibly a huge squad of bikes dead in a turn, so that's just about who gets to go first and luck.
- Tau don't really have anything. I play against them since 2008 and best they have are Vespids and Hazard suits. Vespids are not that shooty, Hazards are expensive, just like Crisis suits are nowadays.
- Chaos, Helldrakes are nothing. Already played against Leviathans - Butcher cannons+Warpflamers wound on 2+, D2, and mortal wounds, and -2 morale so even with Farseer +1 Ld that's 4-6 bikes dead a turn. Terrific but managed to outshoot them before they killed me. Wave Serpents with Dragons are excellent for distraction since D2 is pretty worthless against Wave Serpents.
Nyds, Orks&Necrons haven't played yet against them.
Meanwhile what are you getting out of your Windriders in exchange for this incredible fragility?
Oh come on. "Incredible Fragility" is cultists/firewarriors. Two wounds with 4+ and T4 is better than most of our aspect warriors. For example, it's a price of 2 Banshees.
To start from the end real quick: So... are you taking Banshees on foot? I mean, yes, they seem really fragile to me. I would probably always put them in a Serpent. I don't think they're particularly good even then, but I would certainly argue that footslogging Banshees are about as bad of a choice as Windriders. Also you're just completely ignoring that having two wounds makes you twice as vulnerable to lots of weapons that are already pretty decent against T4 4+.
Anyway, I sort of feel like yours is the analysis which is completely ignoring how this stuff actually plays out on the table. I went over a bunch of units that are basically going to have justified their inclusion in a list if they get to attack Windriders once and which it's pretty much impossible to keep your Windriders safe from while still getting any use out of them. Like, yeah, if your whole army is Windriders then a whole bunch of other units are also great against them, but I'm assuming you bring only a few units of them and I'm pointing out that almost every decent army you go up against is going to have the tools to punish you for that.
Your responses largely don't make sense. You can't really screen a unit from Deep Strikers when the unit you're trying to protect has 24" guns, and a big part of the appeal of Windriders in the first place is that they're very fast and can go off and do their own thing. At some point it's going to be vulnerable unless it's right in the middle of a big blob of cheap and durable screeners, many of which are going to have to be within 24" of lots of the enemy.
By artillery I meant something like a Manticore. Basilisks too but they're not quite as good.
Only one of the SM flyers gets a "strafing run" type ability. The other light flyer has "interceptor" and generally more firepower anyway -- it kills a lot of bikes. The Stormraven doesn't really want to shoot everything at the bikes -- it probably has a better target for its Lascannons -- but depending on loadout it can be quite scary. The two hurricane bolters it can take just on top of everything else are pretty threatening. I left off Razorbacks because they don't offer as much of a guaranteed attack on Windriders. IME it's reasonably possible to mostly avoid them with similar units. But yes, obviously if the enemy has several Razorbacks protecting everything you'd want to shoot at with the bikes then they're even worse than I've been saying.
For the xenos, you just sort of talk like you're willing to tank the hits on the Windriders because it means you get to counter-attack. That's terrible strategy. First, and once again, these units are often coming close to justifying their inclusion in the enemy's list with one attack. For example, that 350 point Tantalus expects to wipe out two 3-man squads of Windriders in one volley (it actually expects to deal more damage than this but is limited by the small size of the squads -- if you have big squads then it expects to kill 8 Windriders). That's crazy. That's 55% of its cost in one round from up to 36" away, and with the Tantalus a lot of what you're paying for is its being an open-topped transport. What are you actually using to take down the Tantalus or Hemlock or Heldrake? Chances are -- and if your opponent is decent almost certainly -- you're using more than twice their cost in units. Those are units that won't be attacking the rest of your opponent's army. But, regardless, what was even the point of having the Windriders instead of something that wasn't going to get killed so easily? If you'd shelled out for a Wave Serpent it would still be on its first profile. Shining Spears are more durable per point against all of this stuff except for assault cannons (where they're only equally vulnerable), and are significantly more threatening.
Finally, a point about SfD: it doesn't work all that well for long-range shooty units anymore. Everyone can split fire. It's really hard now to make sure that when one unit of Windriders dies, there's another with 3 bikes left which is getting to shoot. Right? Almost everything I mentioned is doing its damage either with several guns or from far away. And, regardless, you don't even get that much use out of it with 3-man Windrider units because they just don't have that much firepower. Like, 10 Guardians are going to shoot better against literally everything, in most cases by a wide margin. Again, the damage output is on par with our basic transport, and while Wave Serpents are great mostly it's their durability that's making them great -- you'd prefer a twin assault cannon to all three shuriken cannons.
I don't know. I'm pretty baffled at you having used bikes in 8th edition games and finding them to be fine. I have not used them myself but I've run up against them a couple times, along with similar units from other factions (sometimes bikes, but also just in general low-toughness multi-wound models without invulnerable saves). These are games that often end with a concession on turn 1 or 2 because their list is full of soft targets that aren't even that strong offensively. My impression has been that people might mistakenly think these units are decent but end up dropping them after a couple games when it becomes very apparent that they end up dying to multi-damage weapons without doing much.
Shadenuat wrote: Windriders can bring most shuriken cannons for their points compared to other units. I played 3 games with Saim Hann already and I don't see why they are "bad". They gained increased threat range, they can proc SfD, and can fall back from melee and shoot. They're pretty excellent. D2 spam is a counter match up for them but that's something to overcome as you can't do much about it.
They're better than Warp Spiders by far because '24 range&Fly is just better.
Except you missed out two of the big defensive bonuses on warp spiders. Their -1 to hit and the fact that as infantry they can more easily get cover saves.
With several conceal options that can keep up with the warp spiders they are often being hit on 5s with a 2+ save from being in cover. That makes them super resilient against small arms fire and the bigger anti infantry weapons will still have a harder time killing them then the bikes. And often the higher ap stuff deals multiple wounds which negates the extra wound per model of the jetbikes.
So while the damage output of a comparative jetbike squad to the warp spiders might be slightly higher, the spiders are much more resilient and almost as manouverable, tho a bit less reliably so.
Grizzyzz wrote: So i did a bunch of maths... comparing Shurikan cannons, Twin catapults, and Splinter Cannons (corsair option) on bikes.
I found it extremely interesting that at T3 the catapult has a slight advantage.. at T4.. the Shurikan cannon has a slight advantage.. but basically the Splintercannon is more consistent and better the rest of the time.
Even looking at vehicles. Assuming most are around T5+ The splinter cannons start doing relatively the same amount of wounds .9 vs 1-1.3 on average.
This comparison was done with 3+ saves. Shurikans take the cake at 2+ saves, and Splinter weapons only get better the worse the save.
Anyway.. thought I would share. May try some Corsair Splinter Bikes next game in place of windriders.
The cannon has twice the range though. Which makes it the better choice. If their ranged were equal - I'd take the catapults every time because their damage really comes from rolling that 6.
Forgot about Razorwing - I think most players would run it with Lances since it turns it into underpriced Void Raven.
To start from the end real quick: So... are you taking Banshees on foot?
Banshees will be on foot after their first disembark. Windriders don't have to wait a turn to start doing damage.
Anyway, I sort of feel like yours is the analysis which is completely ignoring how this stuff actually plays out on the table.
Well, yours is the analysis without actual experience with Windriders in 8th? Since 8th only came out, there's bound to be some couch wisdom.
Only one of the SM flyers gets a "strafing run" type ability.
There's also Nephilim, etc.
Shining Spears are more durable per point against all of this stuff except for assault cannons (where they're only equally vulnerable), and are significantly more threatening.
I played a squad of 8. I won't say they are that more durable. Fortuned, they can withstand some firepower, but they need at least a turn to get into actual melee. At that point I lost 5 of them to D2 weapons... which, TBH, allowed my other 16 windriders to do damage. Windriders would put out more shots for that price. I am not sure though, it requires more playtesting. It's definitely not a Jetcouncil from 4th.
I wouldn't say I want to "tank" anything with Windriders. If anything, I want to go first and do as much damage as possible before jetbikes collapse. But I play bikes for a long time (since 4th edition Dex, when they were 76 pts per 1 shuriken cannon hitting on 4s), and I am just used to a) things being worse and b) jetbikes dying. Which is why your "you're playing suicidal army" comes out as somewhat funny to me.
Not trying to appeal to anything here, though. Maybe you're correct and there is no place for them in any sort of hardcore meta. But just as a unit that can dish out good damage and features good mobility? I can't call them "bad". If they are "bad", then 99% of rest of Craftworld 'dex is completely unplayable.
I am kinda wondering - are you proposing running an all-bike army made out of just Shining Spears as an alternative then?
Wyldcarde wrote: Except you missed out two of the big defensive bonuses on warp spiders. Their -1 to hit and the fact that as infantry they can more easily get cover saves.
It's true but I found it to be not easy to maneuver around the table so Spiders would shoot enemy unit while being in cover - with enemy units camping on their own terrain pieces, and terrain itself generally set 12 or more apart on the table.
Dionysodorus wrote: I mean, if you want to talk optimal we've got to start looking at the Revenant Titan and Vampire Hunter.
Of course, you probably don't really want to be taking three double starcannon or pulse laser light vehicles -- that's a lot of points on pretty fragile bodies. I think you probably want to mostly just use WotP to give an extra shooting phase to units that you're already happy bringing. Like a shooty Wraithknight if you're into that, or a Crimson Hunter. A Hunter is a perfectly good unit by itself and basically has 4 bright lances.
I have been using word of the Phoenix and reroll ones or guide on my WK to great success taking land raiders turn one or las predators before they could hurt me.
Another great unit for this are shadow spectres. Though it is harder to keep up, guide and word of the Phoenix on them means a lot of S6 dakka
When thinking about units for Ynnari I always ask myself what I can get from them should I soulburst with them.
This is why I think windriders can work full shuricannon if taken in not-MSU style, like 6man squads. 80% of my soulburst should come from my enemy or WotP.
• Spears are very good, being both CC and shooting unit, more value of choice from Soulburst
• WR kinda good if taken in big squads. Only shooting for them, CC is awful
• Skyweavers benefit a lot from the Rising Crescendo, so taking it away can be like not ideal. They're also on the same role of Spears, but those do their work in a slightly better way IMHO (Weavers have shuricannons, SS hit harder in CC helping fulfilling the CC-shoot role better)
• Reavers: not an amazed fan. From my point of viewing the army they're not enough elite to be part of. Just IMHOofc.
For now my options to choose from are: Spiders, Spears, Wraithguards, Shadow Spectres, Fire Dragons, Hellions, Dark Reapers, all with the help of some single Razorwing flocks to soak some overwatch and die horribly granting me whatever bonus I'm in need of in that moment.
Just remember that in this edition everyone shoots the nuts and kicks amazingly in CC, so a bunch of models are removed each turn. Either going mass OR professionally elite is my go to for now, mixes are easily wiped out sooner than later.
I still like 3-4 man units of wind riders - but it depends on enemy composition. If they have a bunch of small units - youllhave an easier time getting soul bursts with small units that can split out and get within 7" of small units. Like land speeders - or 5 man troop squads. I usually have 2 core beast units that I use to do most the heavy hitting though. 2 unit D scythe WG.
So I am playing harlequins based ynnari with Yvraine and a shadow seer. They have to run on foot to use there powers so I have been using a large troupe of harlequins to screen them. Between the Shadowseer buff and the 4++ save they are actually pretty tough, but they are pretty expensive for a screening unit. I have been looking at razorwing flocks. For 7 points you get 4 wounds. They are only T2 with no save but it's still 7pts for 4 wounds. With a beast master and +2ld drugs they get 9 ld (. 10 ld if you pick the +1ld warlord trait. ) So they won't fly away. They are also fast enough to flock around your slower psychers and reposition.
Single models like razorwing flocks never suffer morale, as they are the only member of the squad. They exist just to die in a way that you see fit. So no beastmaster needed for that.
Besides that, of course using Harlequins to screen anything is an awful idea, they cost too much. I'd have my doubts about having them walk - without rising crescendo - instead of being on a Starweaver even.
Bloodshade wrote: Single models like razorwing flocks never suffer morale, as they are the only member of the squad. They exist just to die in a way that you see fit. So no beastmaster needed for that.
Besides that, of course using Harlequins to screen anything is an awful idea, they cost too much. I'd have my doubts about having them walk - without rising crescendo - instead of being on a Starweaver even.
so the razorwing would be in flocks of 12 to avoid having too many drops and keep the possibility of going first. I am actually thinking of two big flocks of 12. 168 pts for 48 wounds that the opponent has to try to get through before they can try and get your Shadowseer and Yvraine. The flocks also can do some damage.
Tried Warp Spiders today again against Necrons on 2000 pts.
Ugh.
Shoot enemy flank full of swarm models and basically stand there since no jumping back - instant death. (although I did use their death to make another unit fall back from melee and make nekrons fail their charge basically).
Probably should have went MSU there.
12' inch guns without jump in assault. GW please givez back 2d6 jump in assault.
Lost 9 bikes from 1 shooting phase of Tesla Immortals. Although, that was my mistake since there were only 2 of these units and I killed 1 turn 1, so should have just moved away from their shooting range. On 1500 I managed to lose only 5 since I focused down things able to harm them right away. So in lower points games due to going first and activating berserk mode I manage so far to make shuriken bikes pay their points back. On 2000+ I even begin to wonder about putting scaters on them since at least that would allow me to be far away from some targets.
Thinking to put Spiders on a shelf unless it's 1000 pts game or so.
Also Quantium Shielding, yay for my Fire Dragons rolling more and thus doing less damage : > )
Did spiders really do so poorly?
That's bad. In theory they should do fine with the rending on Necron's infantries. We have better weapons against swarms, I guess.
Yay for the quantum. Guess it's time for professional low-rollers (like me LUL) to shine, then
lambsandlions wrote: so the razorwing would be in flocks of 12 to avoid having too many drops and keep the possibility of going first. I am actually thinking of two big flocks of 12. 168 pts for 48 wounds that the opponent has to try to get through before they can try and get your Shadowseer and Yvraine. The flocks also can do some damage.
The Wound per point ratio is fine. But i don't know if this is going to work just because they're cheap. Also, I'm not sold on the whole concept to field them in order to protect characters that almost always protect themselves just not being the closest...
Try it up, but unless you are facing something very specific for its surgical precision in taking down characters, the risk is to field two big units that are mostly defensive and "fragile" while they have little chance of causing proper damage (even with full-sized 96 attacks you're causing 3,5 W to PA, 1,7 on most other more resilient targets like vehicles).
It's not that Spiders are not effective with their shooting by point, it's just they're basically 1 shot gun as a unit.
TBH as a big fan of our Fast Attack, the design of new eldar FA baffles me. Maybe not put 12 rapid guns on hawks, on spiders, don't make scatter laser expensive that much and shining spears are just melee? Maybe give glass cannons something that does NOT require to just berserk into enemy, or at least assault move? No? Neh? Well ok...
Seems like you picked the wrong target for the warp spiders?
Mine have proven fine but then again the army they go in wants to keep the enemy at that 12 inch range, and are backed up by farseers. So they aren't necessarily standing 12 inches from the enemy on their own as the biggest, juiciest target? And there's nothing wrong with just charging them in to combat. Their 3+ armour holds up well and even if the enemy falls back to shoot them it is 1 less unit shooting. If they stay in combat they can warp jump away and continue their shooting.
And shining spears shoot just fine. 4 Str 4 and a strength 6 shot per model stacks up fast. Once again short range tho.
And both units can still hit and run but just have to actually kill a unit first. So have to work for it.
Wyldcarde wrote: Seems like you picked the wrong target for the warp spiders?
What would you have picked between 36+ scarab bases carpet and Immortals in cover?
I guess I could try just holding them somewhere around cover for a turn or two, waiting. But there are things that can kill spiders in cover too. And I'm not sure that just waiting out their shooting phases would help them bring their points back.
Am I right in thinking the Wraithknight doesn't seem as good as an Imperial Knight at first glance but gets better support from psychic powers to make up the difference? What weapons are people gravitating towards? It seems like sword and board is still the way to go for the price and the near mandatory shield, then probably Starcannons on the shoulders?
Lastly, is there a concrete wording on Word of the Phoenix affecting units without Strength from Death? Obviously the Wraithcannon build becomes a lot more attractive as a ranged assassin if that power works on it. The Suncannon build might be worthwhile at that point as well when paired with Guide and Doom, I've always loved the look of that build.
Cheers for any input....but final question, how has the Yncarne performed for you guys? I can see the merits of taking the Avatar of Khaine (i.e. non-Ynnari) over him but he does seem like at the very least he'd be super hard to deal with for some armies.
Caederes wrote: Am I right in thinking the Wraithknight doesn't seem as good as an Imperial Knight at first glance but gets better support from psychic powers to make up the difference? What weapons are people gravitating towards? It seems like sword and board is still the way to go for the price and the near mandatory shield, then probably Starcannons on the shoulders?
Lastly, is there a concrete wording on Word of the Phoenix affecting units without Strength from Death? Obviously the Wraithcannon build becomes a lot more attractive as a ranged assassin if that power works on it. The Suncannon build might be worthwhile at that point as well when paired with Guide and Doom, I've always loved the look of that build.
Cheers for any input....but final question, how has the Yncarne performed for you guys? I can see the merits of taking the Avatar of Khaine (i.e. non-Ynnari) over him but he does seem like at the very least he'd be super hard to deal with for some armies.
It was never the way to go, nor it is. Yes it is cheaper, but you lose 4 anti tanks shoots to just gain a little bit more damage in melé, not worth it. With WotP you want to be shooting twince at least the 2 first turns. With how ap and cover works now, the shield is not really with it and it's quite expensive.
I have successfully taken land raiders in turn q twice now, and if the enemy didn't have one, I could easily take another 2 tanks turn one, and with wave serpents coming ur way with fire dragons and d scythes and a hemlock, it's not such an obvious thing to shoot him, which means turn 2 you shoot twice again and assault
Wyldcarde wrote: Seems like you picked the wrong target for the warp spiders?
What would you have picked between 36+ scarab bases carpet and Immortals in cover?
I guess I could try just holding them somewhere around cover for a turn or two, waiting. But there are things that can kill spiders in cover too. And I'm not sure that just waiting out their shooting phases would help them bring their points back.
The immortals. Go for the 6 to wound for ap -4 and should cut into the unit. Especially if doomed. Then charge the unit.
But there are a myriad of choices that have gone before that to lead you to where you are that you could make differently to make them more effective. And as I said if they are going in by themselves then they are obviously not going to do well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Caederes wrote: Am I right in thinking the Wraithknight doesn't seem as good as an Imperial Knight at first glance but gets better support from psychic powers to make up the difference? What weapons are people gravitating towards? It seems like sword and board is still the way to go for the price and the near mandatory shield, then probably Starcannons on the shoulders?
Lastly, is there a concrete wording on Word of the Phoenix affecting units without Strength from Death? Obviously the Wraithcannon build becomes a lot more attractive as a ranged assassin if that power works on it. The Suncannon build might be worthwhile at that point as well when paired with Guide and Doom, I've always loved the look of that build.
Cheers for any input....but final question, how has the Yncarne performed for you guys? I can see the merits of taking the Avatar of Khaine (i.e. non-Ynnari) over him but he does seem like at the very least he'd be super hard to deal with for some armies.
I agree with the previous comment. Sword and shield is the worst as you are removing your expensive model from a phase.
I prefer shield and suncannon. Trade a bit of damage potential against high end models for the extra survivability of the 5+ invul. The sword is almost not needed as the stomp is better in all circumstances except for the high toughness targets. Even then the extra attacks from the stomp keep the wounds ticking over. Then usually just have a couple of shuriken cannons on the shoulders. Obviously starcannons are the better option but then you are paying 600 points for the model...
It was never the way to go, nor it is. Yes it is cheaper, but you lose 4 anti tanks shoots to just gain a little bit more damage in melé, not worth it. With WotP you want to be shooting twince at least the 2 first turns. With how ap and cover works now, the shield is not really with it and it's quite expensive.
I have successfully taken land raiders in turn q twice now, and if the enemy didn't have one, I could easily take another 2 tanks turn one, and with wave serpents coming ur way with fire dragons and d scythes and a hemlock, it's not such an obvious thing to shoot him, which means turn 2 you shoot twice again and assault
I was under the impression the sword was the preferred weapon in 7th? Maybe not for Ynnari but definitely for regular Craftworld, right (not counting Skathach)? I always read that the Wraithcannons were too unreliable and the Suncannon wasn't that useful.
Wyldcarde wrote:I agree with the previous comment. Sword and shield is the worst as you are removing your expensive model from a phase.
I prefer shield and suncannon. Trade a bit of damage potential against high end models for the extra survivability of the 5+ invul. The sword is almost not needed as the stomp is better in all circumstances except for the high toughness targets. Even then the extra attacks from the stomp keep the wounds ticking over. Then usually just have a couple of shuriken cannons on the shoulders. Obviously starcannons are the better option but then you are paying 600 points for the model...
Fair enough. I haven't read too much on Wraithknights in the new edition, I just saw a few friends saying they think the sword is the best option but that might be because they modelled all of theirs with them
Seems like a toss up between the wraithcannon and suncannon builds now which is cool. Having now checked the points, for Ynnari especially the guns are a no-brainer.
Wyldcarde wrote: The immortals. Go for the 6 to wound for ap -4 and should cut into the unit. Especially if doomed. Then charge the unit.
Spiders can't charge after jump move (unless you meant other unit).
Shot immortals btw as well, killed 2 or 3 maybe with rending.
20 shots, 15 hits, 10 wounds, 2 rendings - ~4 2+ save infantry models per shooting phase.
Good against their vehicles though.
Seems like a toss up between the wraithcannon and suncannon builds now which is cool. Having now checked the points, for Ynnari especially the guns are a no-brainer.
Word of the Phoenix obviously is great as it can be cast on a Wraithknight and allow it to shoot twice, but if you're playing aggressive then the payout is even bigger for a sword and board knight. You can cast WotP to move twice to get that first turn charge, and then get stuck in and cast it for an extra fight phase. That gives you 8 attacks that are stronger than the 8 shots you would get with the wraithcannons, or 24 stomps to deal with infantry. I personally have never considered the suncannon because I'm the guy who would roll snake eyes and get two shots with it at critical moments. Eldar aren't Orks!
I played Eva with Wraithcannons and 2 Starcannons. Decent shooting and Fortuned it can stay for a while on the table at least on 1500-1750 pts. Leg attacks are terrific, and if you want Eva to make it's 500 points back (I managed to), you are pretty much obliged to shoot and use Unstoppable Revenant to charge every turn as well, using every phase to do damage.
However I am concidering Suncannon+2 SL. The price is around 2WC+2SC. Yes, the new blast mechanics are terrible, but '48 range on Suncannon means targeting anything on the board. The invul helps multi wound models greatly.
Guide or Autarch for re-rolling 1's with BS3+ blast weapon would be needed, WotP would also be needed, and preferably some extra Command Points so good detach composition as well would be required. Seems like hilariously inneficient way of trying to make one overpriced unit work, and I believe Mattler who made math for eldar on other forums would call this something from gambling like "chasing the numbers", but what can you do.
No WotF on anything, just units that can soulburst.
No mixing of Ynnari with non-ynnari.
And Starcannons are D3 damage.
Actually the errata now allows the mixing of Ynnari and non-Ynnari, as long as they're in different detachments. This is a buff. The only thing you're not allowed to do now that you were before is include one of the three Ynnari HQs in a generic Aeldari detachment.
Woha! We sure needed the nerf!
Overpriced AF Wraithknight with no access to WotF? Check.
Overpriced, weak Starcannons? Check.
And why would you want to have half your army not being Ynnari? Rising Crescendo is nice, but the fewer units with SfD, the less bennefit as a whole army.
Dionysodorus has it right, no more talk of what an 'army' is, thank goodness. And now you can have the Yncarne and an Avatar of Khaine, just in different detachments, but they will both affect any unit that is both Asuryani and Ynnari.
Also:
Page 242 – Understrength Units
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If you are using Power Ratings, you must still pay the
Power Rating cost as if you had a minimum-sized unit,
even though it contains fewer models. If you are using
points, you only pay the points for the models you
actually have in an understrength unit (and any wargear
they are equipped with). An understrength unit still
takes up the appropriate slot in a Detachment.’
I think a single Ranger or Striking Scorpion Exarch transforming into the Yncarne will be a frequent strategy for me moving forward. I'm also considering a Ynnari Shining Spear Suicide Exarch to charge enemy vehicles.
Can we really justify a Wraithknight now? I don't think re-rolls (from Aeldari buff dealers)) will it to make it appear worthwhile compared to IKs.
Someone should ask the developers what were they thinking when they priced it ò_ó
Edit: oh and congrats GW for making abominations as above fully legal
The "understrength unit" thing still strikes me as obviously intended to be used in friendly games where someone doesn't have the models required rather than as a way to get more efficient units. I mean, it does say that you can only do this if "you do not have enough models".
That said, Eldar are in a great place to abuse this if not. Except for kill point concerns, and deployment count concerns for things you can't transport, it's going to make sense to take singleton Exarchs because of how ridiculously efficient they are.
43 points buys a Dark Reaper Exarch with a tempest launcher who can kill almost 2 MEQs per turn from out of LoS. A Swooping Hawk Exarch with a sunrifle for 21 points can debuff enemy hit rolls. 36 points gets a Shining Spear Exarch with 3 wounds, and 4 S8 AP-4 D2 attacks when he shoots and charges. Scorpion Exarchs are 19 points and have an okay chance of locking up enemy units in CC (though you may want to add another 1 or 2 Scorpions to make sure they survive). Howling Banshees can do the same thing out of a Serpent.
And of course you can also bring the Exarchs as a SfD trigger for bigger units, because they're often too dangerous to ignore.
But again I don't expect that most opponents are going to let you do this.
No WotF on anything, just units that can soulburst.
No mixing of Ynnari with non-ynnari.
And Starcannons are D3 damage.
Actually the errata now allows the mixing of Ynnari and non-Ynnari, as long as they're in different detachments. This is a buff. The only thing you're not allowed to do now that you were before is include one of the three Ynnari HQs in a generic Aeldari detachment.
Agree. Now that things are cleared up it's possible to take an Ynnari detachment with a lot of SfD units coupled with - say - an Harlequin detachment that retains Rising Crescendo with all the good that comes from it.
We've got a lot to tinker on this.
Don't know if that starcannon nerf was needed, but whatever I guess.
Man the FAQ took a lot of wind out of my sail, but for fairness I think it is okay. I was having a lot of success charging skyweavers into combat and when they die soul bursting the guys inside. Oh well.
If I have a transport and Yvraine within 7" and the transport dies can I soul burst Yvraine and have her cast words of the Phoenix on the guys getting out of the transport?
Dionysodorus wrote: The "understrength unit" thing still strikes me as obviously intended to be used in friendly games where someone doesn't have the models required rather than as a way to get more efficient units. I mean, it does say that you can only do this if "you do not have enough models".
DanielFM wrote: Woha! We sure needed the nerf!
Overpriced AF Wraithknight with no access to WotF? Check.
Overpriced, weak Starcannons? Check.
And why would you want to have half your army not being Ynnari? Rising Crescendo is nice, but the fewer units with SfD, the less bennefit as a whole army.
Kudos GW
Dark Eldar power from pain rules look mighty juicy.
I never counted too much on vehicles being able to soulburst with WotP, and planned my strategies accordingly.
Now more than ever I think the way is to go all-in on units that can fullfil multiple roles in the battlefield, kept together within the famous 7" one from the other. The aim is tearing the enemy apart using dreamlike Soulburst chain reactions like FD taking (or finishing taking) down a vehicle or monster allowing [spiders/spectres/insert shooting unit] to fire into another, then shoot themselves finishing down a unit allowing some CC unit (like spears) to charge a weak unit, finishing it down and charge another in the charge phase.
A little ambitious. But this's the plan since the beginning when I started Ynnari: kill my opponent's army acting twice in each phase, while sitting down comfortably with a phone in my hand declaiming "Execute order 66".
Glad to see that WKnights are becoming even less of a thing.
Understrength units could be the single most amazing erratum for us. They will still be balanced somewhat by the kill points mechanic, but they're also a guaranteed soulburst if used correctly.
BertBert wrote: Glad to see that WKnights are becoming even less of a thing.
Understrength units could be the single most amazing erratum for us. They will still be balanced somewhat by the kill points mechanic, but they're also a guaranteed soulburst if used correctly.
Yeah, it's great that if I like the Wraithknight model it will be as useful for me as a Gundam action figure, because it won't leave the cabinet. Overnerfing them because they were too powerful in 7th is idiotic and useless: it won't solve the damage from the past and only hurt the present edition.
And yeah, let's abuse an absurd rule in the most unfluffy way possible, while we are at it. Single exarch min-max, suicide models for the lulz... That's all so Eldar.
Clearly what our army needed. Nerfed centerpieces (and Starcannons) and gamey crutches to be abused. Thanks GW
BertBert wrote: Glad to see that WKnights are becoming even less of a thing.
Understrength units could be the single most amazing erratum for us. They will still be balanced somewhat by the kill points mechanic, but they're also a guaranteed soulburst if used correctly.
Yeah, it's great that if I like the Wraithknight model it will be as useful for me as a Gundam action figure, because it won't leave the cabinet. Overnerfing them because they were too powerful in 7th is idiotic and useless: it won't solve the damage from the past and only hurt the present edition.
And yeah, let's abuse an absurd rule in the most unfluffy way possible, while we are at it. Single exarch min-max, suicide models for the lulz... That's all so Eldar.
Clearly what our army needed. Nerfed centerpieces (and Starcannons) and gamey crutches to be abused. Thanks GW
Yeah, less Knight type units are exactly what this game needs. They are a marketing ploy that spiralled out of control in 7th. I hope Flyers are next on the cutting block. If you really like your WKnight you can still use it - it's just not a no-brainer anymore.
Understrength units will probably be fixed, so don't get your panties in a bunch.
BertBert wrote: Glad to see that WKnights are becoming even less of a thing.
Understrength units could be the single most amazing erratum for us. They will still be balanced somewhat by the kill points mechanic, but they're also a guaranteed soulburst if used correctly.
Yeah, it's great that if I like the Wraithknight model it will be as useful for me as a Gundam action figure, because it won't leave the cabinet. Overnerfing them because they were too powerful in 7th is idiotic and useless: it won't solve the damage from the past and only hurt the present edition.
And yeah, let's abuse an absurd rule in the most unfluffy way possible, while we are at it. Single exarch min-max, suicide models for the lulz... That's all so Eldar.
Clearly what our army needed. Nerfed centerpieces (and Starcannons) and gamey crutches to be abused. Thanks GW
Yeah, less Knight type units are exactly what this game needs. They are a marketing ploy that spiralled out of control in 7th. I hope Flyers are next on the cutting block. If you really like your WKnight you can still use it - it's just not a no-brainer anymore.
Understrength units will probably be fixed, so don't get your panties in a bunch.
Will they now. GW just had a chance to fix things and only made them worse.
Will they now. GW just had a chance to fix things and only made them worse.
It doesn't have to be GW who fixes it. TOs will impose restrictions on things that are unwanted in a competitive setting and for casual games there's always the good old pre-game talk
In any case, GW will find a lot more issues they need to fix in 8th, so they might just put another caveat on the rule as a part of the next errata. All we can do is work with what we have at this point in time and for Ynnari single model units are quite handy.
Yeah, less Knight type units are exactly what this game needs. They are a marketing ploy that spiralled out of control in 7th. I hope Flyers are next on the cutting block. If you really like your WKnight you can still use it - it's just not a no-brainer anymore.
Yet the Imperial Knight is now properly costed and we will still keep seeing armies made by 4 IK and nothing else. GW sure fixed the problem by only shafting Eldar players ¬¬
It's not that it's no longer a no brainer. It's that it lost most things making it different from the Imperial Knight, but they made it far more expensive than the IK for no reason whatsoever.
We have every reason to be salty about it.
Understrength units will probably be fixed, so don't get your panties in a bunch.
Will they now. GW just had a chance to fix things and only made them worse.
Yep, that's here to stay. But if people wasn't so eager to explit it, that rule would not be a problem. They explicitly state it was made for people unable to field a whole unit, not for people to use it as an underhanded dirty trick.
It's within the realm of possibilty. However, to fully benefirt from SfD army must be quick so it could set up in the movement phase according to "death, nya!" plan. For a slow army SfD is just an opportunity to make occasional extra action a turn.
Yet the Imperial Knight is now properly costed and we will still keep seeing armies made by 4 IK and nothing else. GW sure fixed the problem by only shafting Eldar players ¬¬
It's not that it's no longer a no brainer. It's that it lost most things making it different from the Imperial Knight, but they made it far more expensive than the IK for no reason whatsoever.
We have every reason to be salty about it.
I sincerely hope Imperial Knights will suffer a similar fate soon. As for being more expensive, they are deployed in a completely different context than knights, so of course they will be priced differently. Eldar have a lot of access to buffs, but having a WKnight shoot twice per turn would have made it a very prevalent choice for Ynnari, which I'm glad is not the case now.
Yep, that's here to stay. But if people wasn't so eager to explit it, that rule would not be a problem. They explicitly state it was made for people unable to field a whole unit, not for people to use it as an underhanded dirty trick.
When has the game ever been played as intended by the designers? I don't think it's that terrible, really. Yes, there will be people who will abuse this by having a single model unit from every available unit type in order to maximise their command points and soulburst, but in the end you can always choose not to play these people. If you use it to get a few additional soulbursts while conceding easy killpoints to your enemy, I'd consider that a reasonable tradeoff. Your soulburst might not do as much as you expected and you might just have thrown the game by giving away a free victory point.
Also, more units means getting the first turn becomes more and more unlikely, so that's another tradeoff.
Will they now. GW just had a chance to fix things and only made them worse.
It doesn't have to be GW who fixes it. TOs will impose restrictions on things that are unwanted in a competitive setting and for casual games there's always the good old pre-game talk
In any case, GW will find a lot more issues they need to fix in 8th, so they might just put another caveat on the rule as a part of the next errata. All we can do is work with what we have at this point in time and for Ynnari single model units are quite handy.
Since the embarked unit can no longer soulburst from the destruction of its transport, there is now an alternative to that which does work by using understrength units:
If a transport is destroyed, any units embarked within it immediately disembark (see below) before the transport model is removed, but you must then roll one dice for each model you just set up on the battlefield. For each roll of 1, a model that disembarked (your choice) is slain.
So stick a single-model understrength unit in the transport, say, a storm guardian, and have him be the first casualty for any rolls of 1. We know he's setup and on the battlefield, so as soon as he's slain the other unit that was in the transport (wraithscythes perhaps) can soulburst.
I wouldn't keep any faith that the understrength rule will be left working in this way in events where played game matters like tournaments. It's GW's fault once again, they always think in a innocent way that touches pure foolishness as they made the rule for the happy miniature collectors that want to field all of their models (where they could just play open or narrative and be absolutely fine).
I just think that is tournaments you'll hardly see that rule left untouched, so I wouldn't put too much confidence in this kind of tricks.
Also, too many units means the opponent always starts first doing his stuff.
So I'm a little vague on the Transport rules. If I take a Ynnari transport (let's say a Venom) which normally only permits a certain type of Eldar from riding in it, and a squad of infantry who'd originally be from a different list (Banshees, for example), also as Ynnari, could they get in?
Played a 1500pt game vs Tau
My list was
Yvraine
Shadowseer
Troupe master with caress and fusion psitol
Solitaire
5 players with caress in starweaver (with Shadowseer)
5 players with caress in starweaver (with Yvraine )
5 players with embrace and fusion in starweaver (with troupe master)
5 players with embrace and fusion in starweaver
Shining spears with exarch and star Lance
Trying out with the new rules of no soul burst out of vehicles and no words of the Phoenix on vehicles. Having 6 drops I got to go first and it was pretty brutal. I had two starweavers up against my board edge. One with the Shadowseer and the other with the fusion troupe master. Get out 3 inches, move 9 inches twilight pathways the starweaver 16 inches. I was able to cross the board turn one surprising my opponent. On the other side of the board Yvraine got out and words of the phoenix the shining spears again crossing the board. I really like this strategy as it is the fastest way to get our guys across the board well worth the price of the Shadowseer for sure.
Invulnerable saves are pretty crazy, while my opponent fusion commanders can easily tear through rhinos they have a lot more trouble when they are now hitting on 3+ and half the shots are blocked by the save. My opponent thought she would be able to kill my starweavers but she couldn't. I was rolling hot blocking the fusion and that left the commanders out in the open. If she could have popped the starweavers my players would have been easily shot up and killed by fire warrior vollies. It was too bad.
On my turn I was able to kill her riptides and two of the three of her commanders. I was then able to run away with the game with her unable to dish out the damage necessary to kill off my players.
The invul saves really are crazy. I know I was rolling hot but our starweavers can be really tough if you get lucky. I found the shinning spears just okay, I think I will be using scourge instead as they are better taking out tanks which is what I think I need.
Well, this is what Harlequins can do. This time your opponent got absolutely no clue about your army and got surprised, it won't take much time before they learn not to deploy close. I'm on my 7th game with Harleys and my opponents will never allow me to charge T1 with anymore, they know the distances by now.
Did you find the full FP to be enough as AT? And against other armies? We was discussing this in the Harlequin's community the other day.
Bloodshade wrote: Well, this is what Harlequins can do. This time your opponent got absolutely no clue about your army and got surprised, it won't take much time before they learn not to deploy close. I'm on my 7th game with Harleys and my opponents will never allow me to charge T1 with anymore, they know the distances by now.
Did you find the full FP to be enough as AT? And against other armies? We was discussing this in the Harlequin's community the other day.
I also had many successful 1st turn charges the first few games I played (mostly with Skyweavers and Rising Crescendo), but now it's much less common, because people are indeed aware of the trick.
In this case, lambsandlions used psychic powers to have double movement. So it's a 32" movement, then a normal charge. Even if the enemy deploys far back, on many maps you can reach stuff T1 with this kind of movement.
Bloodshade wrote: Well, this is what Harlequins can do. This time your opponent got absolutely no clue about your army and got surprised, it won't take much time before they learn not to deploy close. I'm on my 7th game with Harleys and my opponents will never allow me to charge T1 with anymore, they know the distances by now.
Did you find the full FP to be enough as AT? And against other armies? We was discussing this in the Harlequin's community the other day.
I am thinking about adding scourge because I want more range on my anti-tank. When the fusion connects it is great but when they get first turn and blow up the starweaver it can be difficult. But with 5 fusion I can reliably take out most transports.
fresus wrote: I also had many successful 1st turn charges the first few games I played (mostly with Skyweavers and Rising Crescendo), but now it's much less common, because people are indeed aware of the trick.
In this case, lambsandlions used psychic powers to have double movement. So it's a 32" movement, then a normal charge. Even if the enemy deploys far back, on many maps you can reach stuff T1 with this kind of movement.
Skyweavers can get all 32" and with 6" for fusion I can usually shoot turn one. Jet bikes also get that 32" with wotp but what I have been enjoying is turn 1 blitz solitaire and wotp averages out to be 38" plus a charge, perfect for tying up units or going after characters. 10 s5 ap-2 hits is also nice. Not much can hide from that range of movement.
lambsandlions wrote: I am thinking about adding scourge because I want more range on my anti-tank. When the fusion connects it is great but when they get first turn and blow up the starweaver it can be difficult. But with 5 fusion I can reliably take out most transports.
Yeah, that's what I thought. Playing 100% Harlequins (when I don't play Ynnari) I had same problem and ended up throwing in 3 Voidweavers just for a little bit of extra AT, but otherwise if you don't get T1 you should hide the Starweavers AMAP while advancing and try to make the jump t2.
lambsandlions wrote: Skyweavers can get all 32" and with 6" for fusion I can usually shoot turn one. Jet bikes also get that 32" with wotp but what I have been enjoying is turn 1 blitz solitaire and wotp averages out to be 38" plus a charge, perfect for tying up units or going after characters. 10 s5 ap-2 hits is also nice. Not much can hide from that range of movement.
Skyweavers can't have fusions, though. Good for charging what you want given that humungous 32" movement, but you can't do the trick on Starweavers neither (thank FAQs).
lambsandlions wrote: Skyweavers can get all 32" and with 6" for fusion I can usually shoot turn one. Jet bikes also get that 32" with wotp but what I have been enjoying is turn 1 blitz solitaire and wotp averages out to be 38" plus a charge, perfect for tying up units or going after characters. 10 s5 ap-2 hits is also nice. Not much can hide from that range of movement.
Skyweavers can't have fusions, though. Good for charging what you want given that humungous 32" movement, but you can't do the trick on Starweavers neither (thank FAQs).
I suppose he meant Starweavers full of fusion players.
WotP doesn't work on Straweavers, but twilight pathway does.
Yeah, sorry I meant starweavers full of fusion players. Why do all our units need to sound so similar?
If you get your shadowseer out 3" from the front of the hull, move her 8" and caste twilight pathways 3" from the back of the hull, you can get the starweavers full movement before you move again.
Is there anything stopping a unit soulbursting to move back into a transport? Taking a move action bringing you back within 3" off a transport seems to let the unit just embark. Doesn't say anything about being the move phase.
Could open up a lot of options in the wave serpent army, where a unit can jump out, unleash a volley to kill a unit and then retreat back into the safety of the wave serpent.
Wyldcarde wrote: Is there anything stopping a unit soulbursting to move back into a transport? Taking a move action bringing you back within 3" off a transport seems to let the unit just embark. Doesn't say anything about being the move phase.
Could open up a lot of options in the wave serpent army, where a unit can jump out, unleash a volley to kill a unit and then retreat back into the safety of the wave serpent.
The only restriction would be if the unit disembarked that turn, as seen in the top paragraph of the transports rules section.
GW had a second commentary that even said you could embark on a fallback move. So I do not see why you would not be able to do it for SfD. So an example.. they disembark on your turn and dakka. Then on your opponents turn your opponent blow somethign triggering SfD.. you could then take a move action / fall back and hop inside of the transport again.
I tried out some Ynnari, leaving my Harlequins aside for this time.
I went double Outrider detachment, the first one with Yvraine, Solitaire, 5 Scourges full dark lances, 5 Spears Exarch, 4 Windriders full shuricannon, 1+1+1 Flocks and 5 Reapers. The second one had Yncarne, 10+10 Hellions, 8 Spiders, 1+1+1 Flocks and 5 Reapers.
My opponent had AM with a bunch of stuff, most notably 100 conscripts, kommisar, 2 leman including pask, 20 halflings, 20 scions, 20 riders and some taurox and weapons squads.
He managed to roll-off good and to get first turn, so I hid where i could, trying to give him targets that if destroyed spawned the Yncarne where he might not have wanted him to be.
Unfortunately I lost a lot of guys but not whole units, so no Yncarne. I got him with DS scourges breaking a taurox, soulbursting and getting another one pretty much trashed.
I threw at my opponent's units even my home furnishings before charging, I got some free shooting from overwatch and slowly managed to kill those conscripts that blocke like triple their points. So not a good trade.
I had to hide Yvraine and the Solitaire all game due to those delightful halflings. He shooted a lot but every time he fired he gave me basically a useless unit, in the sense that the unit was not dead (thus allowing me to soulburst) but pretty much useless nonetheless.
I lost the game, unfortunately, but not as badly as I thought. I just had the feeling that his points were better spent than mine, his cheap units did as much work as my (not cheap) units. More about this later.
Props
Yncarne: My. F. God. That thing trashed pask in a single CC phase after going basically untouched through his lines. I rolled above average, but still... basically captured his attention alone (also because the rest of my army wasn't opposing that much)
Razorwings: the only SB i got from my units was from them suiciding into enemy stuff. For 7 points each... thanks guys.
Hellions: I've seen worse. Good AI shooting, nice in CC, could stay in the list.
Cons
Spears: Just nope. Too fragile, one or two casualties and they're trash. Maybe vs marines, but they still cost too much, we are fine vs marines I think, it's vs hordes that we struggle.
Reapers: ok, it wasn't their fight, hordes and super tanky vehicles are not their preys. But overall killed a lot of useless models.
Yvraine and Solitaire: couldn't move them at all. Ok, that wasn't their fault but those halflings' merit. The Solitaire ended up killing that Kommisar, but should've been able to do so two turns before.
So, the full elite approach has failed me. I see more fit an MSU-ish approach, keeping cheap, useful units like hellions. So that if the opponent shoots, something HAS to die, he cannot simply cripple it and either make is useless or die in the morale phase (where we don't get SB).
Also, the edition and AM seemed to not be that much balanced, a thing also noticed by my opponent.
GW may have simplified too much the game. There're lot fo decisions to make, yes, but most of them are forced if you think carefully.
For now the best entertainment that I had was with Harlequins, they require a lot of skill even to switch from loose badly to loose honourably.
But still... meh.
I have found shining spears to be amazing in ynnari.
They are target number 1 but with their 4+ inv save and 2 wounds they can take some killing. How many did you run? I run at least 6 so even a couple of kills you still pack a punch.
I haven't really seen ratling sniper stats but feel like apart from a few niche cases the snipers aren't really a threat to characters. Both of yours had 4+ invuls so they are going to shrug off half the normal wounds. The mortal wounds can cause issues (assuming they have the ability) and with 20 of them there is the chance of so above average rolls, but I feel like removing the 2 characters from the game from the sounds of things meant that the snipers effectively "killed" both characters turn 1.
Especially the solitaire, he should have taken one round of shooting max. Then he should be in combat if need be.
Wyldcarde wrote: I have found shining spears to be amazing in ynnari.
They are target number 1 but with their 4+ inv save and 2 wounds they can take some killing. How many did you run? I run at least 6 so even a couple of kills you still pack a punch.
I haven't really seen ratling sniper stats but feel like apart from a few niche cases the snipers aren't really a threat to characters. Both of yours had 4+ invuls so they are going to shrug off half the normal wounds. The mortal wounds can cause issues (assuming they have the ability) and with 20 of them there is the chance of so above average rolls, but I feel like removing the 2 characters from the game from the sounds of things meant that the snipers effectively "killed" both characters turn 1.
Especially the solitaire, he should have taken one round of shooting max. Then he should be in combat if need be.
20 Ratlings expect to kill the Solitaire in one turn. They shoot like 400 points of Rangers. Killing them is a priority and the possibility of coming up against a list like this is probably why you want transports.
20 Ratlings expect to kill the Solitaire in one turn.
Solitaires are trash though, why would you care about what kills them?
If you wanted to say X Ratlings kill a Farseer, Space Marine Captain, Tau Comamnder, or anything that's actually useful in 8th edition, try doing that.
Wyldcarde wrote: I have found shining spears to be amazing in ynnari.
They are target number 1 but with their 4+ inv save and 2 wounds they can take some killing. How many did you run? I run at least 6 so even a couple of kills you still pack a punch.
I haven't really seen ratling sniper stats but feel like apart from a few niche cases the snipers aren't really a threat to characters. Both of yours had 4+ invuls so they are going to shrug off half the normal wounds. The mortal wounds can cause issues (assuming they have the ability) and with 20 of them there is the chance of so above average rolls, but I feel like removing the 2 characters from the game from the sounds of things meant that the snipers effectively "killed" both characters turn 1.
Especially the solitaire, he should have taken one round of shooting max. Then he should be in combat if need be.
I ran 5, as I wrote. And of course they can hit hard.
But... 2W and 4++ are not enough when facing a great number of shots. It's saturation fire, always worked like that. And the main problem is: Spears (or any unit like that) can take one casualty and you can still do stuff, but take two and the unit is basically useless. My opponent is a good player (far better than me, I usually get trashed when I play vs him, I learn a lot and sometimes manage to get a well-earned victory) and he immediately recognised the weakness of my list and exploited that.
We had a talk after the match where he explained that he simply had to cripple my units lowering any value they had AND they could get with Soulburst. We ended up concluding that a MSU approach is more fit if you want to take advantage of the Soulburst, so that if something is shot at, it dies and provides a low value but trustable soulburst.
20 halfling snipers are far from useless. He threatened Yvraine to stay hidden and in general they are a menace to any <10W character you think is protected by the army.
And for those wondering... the solitaire was my main weapon vs the Kommissar, delaying his kill for three turns bought him enough time to block my army. We also discussed this point after the game.
So not that trash if you know what he can do and how to use him, mmh?
Yes good points on the spears. I'm not saying that they are indestructible. If your opponent shoots his army at them they will die. Maybe the issue was with the rest of your army? In that the shining spears are a clear number 1 threat. Whereas you throw in a larger unit of reapers, a hemlock, some wave serpents full of fire dragons , a nightspinner or warp spiders etc etc, the shining spears aren't necessarily the clear cut first choice. Plus backed up with conceal or even fortune they become a lot harder to kill. Though that means you have first turn which then is not as much of a problem.
But yes sounds like your opponent handled ynnari well. By wittling down units rather than finishing them off. The fact that enemy units dying triggers soulburst though (and to a lesser extent word of the Phoenix) doesn't automatically lean towards msu for ynnari. Being able to hit with a strike that you can guarantee will destroy an enemy unit is just as important. So a full squad of fire dragons out of a wave serpent is a perfect example. As is the afformentioned shining spears into a vehicle (providing they haven't been crippled). These things can reliably kill a unit from close range to guarantee they then soulburst to get the bonus action. It is also why I think a farseer or eldrad is pretty much first pick for ynnari. To gain access to doom to guarantee that main unit you need dead dies, and putting mobile hard hitting pieces nearby to benefit from soulburst.
But it has proven to be a balancing act in list construction for ynnari.
You're right for sure, my army was not optimised at all, as the whole thing was a test to see what was good enough and what wasn't. I only put 5 spear because I already tested them in a full jetbike army, and I wanted to focus on other units. FYI in previous tests spears did very good (probably because I faced Chaos Daemons that have very few shooting).
That said, there are a true bunch of options available, as you mentioned also. I used Eldrad in my first Ynnari game and he plus Yvraine did a lot of work, but the point cost was way too much for "just" two psykers. I thought I needed more units. I'll try him out again in the future for sure, though.
For now, I think I'll stick with double outrider detachment with Yvraine and the Yncarne, spears, hellions and flocks as the only FAs (spamming them a bit) and 2x reapers as HS. I'll try to squeeze in a Hemlock (for the spears also!), some elites (FD or Wraithguards on WS) and give the whole thing another try before switching to an MSU approach.
I'll have to take a few planes for work this week, hopefully next weekend I'll be able to kidnap my opponent for another match before summer vacations.
Has anyone considered using Shadow Spectres in the Ynnari army? Assuming the Ynnari rules apply, these look like a great unit. I've been considering a couple of combinations and would love to get y'alls thoughts on this. The crux of the army looks like this ...
- Eldrad
- Troupe master (in one of the skyweavers)
- warlocks and stuff to go with the wraithguard and shadow spectres
- 2x Skyweavers w/ 6 harlequins w/f pistols and caresses
- 2x 5-man squads of wraithguard accompanied by a warlock for conceal
- 1x 5 man squad of shadow spectre accompanied by a warlock skyrunner for conceal (does this mean -2 to hit?)
Yeah shadow spectres are great this edition.
Yes conceal stacks as it is a different ability.
If you are going to run them go a full unit. They will get shot at so you want to be able to take a few casualties.
But with guide on them they kick out a lot of pain. And high movement means they can make good use of soulburst as they can more easily get into the 7" zone.
How do you guys feel about the Skatach Wraithknights? I know they're more points but getting the drop turn 1 and never getting shot before they shoot (well except Tau) is pretty nice, plus I think both the Inferno Lance and the Deahshroud cannon is better than any of the normal WK options.
Bloodshade wrote: I tried out some Ynnari, leaving my Harlequins aside for this time.
I went double Outrider detachment, the first one with Yvraine, Solitaire, 5 Scourges full dark lances, 5 Spears Exarch, 4 Windriders full shuricannon, 1+1+1 Flocks and 5 Reapers. The second one had Yncarne, 10+10 Hellions, 8 Spiders, 1+1+1 Flocks and 5 Reapers.
My opponent had AM with a bunch of stuff, most notably 100 conscripts, kommisar, 2 leman including pask, 20 halflings, 20 scions, 20 riders and some taurox and weapons squads.
He managed to roll-off good and to get first turn, so I hid where i could, trying to give him targets that if destroyed spawned the Yncarne where he might not have wanted him to be.
Unfortunately I lost a lot of guys but not whole units, so no Yncarne. I got him with DS scourges breaking a taurox, soulbursting and getting another one pretty much trashed.
I threw at my opponent's units even my home furnishings before charging, I got some free shooting from overwatch and slowly managed to kill those conscripts that blocke like triple their points. So not a good trade.
I had to hide Yvraine and the Solitaire all game due to those delightful halflings. He shooted a lot but every time he fired he gave me basically a useless unit, in the sense that the unit was not dead (thus allowing me to soulburst) but pretty much useless nonetheless.
I lost the game, unfortunately, but not as badly as I thought. I just had the feeling that his points were better spent than mine, his cheap units did as much work as my (not cheap) units. More about this later.
Props
Yncarne: My. F. God. That thing trashed pask in a single CC phase after going basically untouched through his lines. I rolled above average, but still... basically captured his attention alone (also because the rest of my army wasn't opposing that much)
Razorwings: the only SB i got from my units was from them suiciding into enemy stuff. For 7 points each... thanks guys.
Hellions: I've seen worse. Good AI shooting, nice in CC, could stay in the list.
Cons
Spears: Just nope. Too fragile, one or two casualties and they're trash. Maybe vs marines, but they still cost too much, we are fine vs marines I think, it's vs hordes that we struggle.
Reapers: ok, it wasn't their fight, hordes and super tanky vehicles are not their preys. But overall killed a lot of useless models.
Yvraine and Solitaire: couldn't move them at all. Ok, that wasn't their fault but those halflings' merit. The Solitaire ended up killing that Kommisar, but should've been able to do so two turns before.
So, the full elite approach has failed me. I see more fit an MSU-ish approach, keeping cheap, useful units like hellions. So that if the opponent shoots, something HAS to die, he cannot simply cripple it and either make is useless or die in the morale phase (where we don't get SB).
Also, the edition and AM seemed to not be that much balanced, a thing also noticed by my opponent.
GW may have simplified too much the game. There're lot fo decisions to make, yes, but most of them are forced if you think carefully.
For now the best entertainment that I had was with Harlequins, they require a lot of skill even to switch from loose badly to loose honourably.
But still... meh.
As it stands, IG is clearly the most powerful army by a comfortable margin. Meanwhile, Edlar has the problem of some units costing waaaay too much. For example, someone is going to need to explain to me why one Eldar Ranger costs as much as 4 Ratlings.
That said, your list seems a bit mismatched. You had nary an ounce of anti-horde in it. The Eldar don't have infantry sweeping elite units/vehicles like some other armies do. However, we do have basic troops that could a lot of dakka on target. I don't know what models you have, given your Drukhari mini's I'll assume you have more of them. I few Raiders flying around loaded with Kabalite warriors would do a little something. Killing his Kommisars are key also. Even if you get into melee, he can fall back and use an order to shoot you anyway. I personally run guardian heavy Ynnari, almost exclusively made of Craftworld units. Guardians with Farseer and Warlock buffs will mow down Conscripts. With Razorwings to screen them and provide reliable Soulburst it would be even better.
wannabmoy wrote: Has anyone considered using Shadow Spectres in the Ynnari army?
They are awesome. I can't justify not taking some at the points cost. I field 3 units of 4 ~92pts ea. They make great screening units as they are very tanky in cover (-1 to hit, 2+). I find i use the flamer profile more often than the lance. d6 s5 shots is typically better in every case than 1 s6 shot. Even with the ap considered. TBH.. their flamers should be d3 shots probably.. I even use them against flyers and usually get around 3-4 wounds out of a one squad.
luke1705 wrote:How do you guys feel about the Skatach Wraithknights? I know they're more points but getting the drop turn 1 and never getting shot before they shoot (well except Tau) is pretty nice, plus I think both the Inferno Lance and the Deahshroud cannon is better than any of the normal WK options.
I am unsure if you play ITC or not, but I believe there is going to be a ban on PL31+ units. I think the Skatach is 32?
I assume you are talking about shadow spectres. That's good points regarding the smaller units. Tho I do feel like the Full squad benefits from the psychic support a lot more (which they want for their guns) in that it's better guiding a unit of 10 and word of the Phoenix them. Tho 10 is a big ol target for the enemy whereas 3x4 would be a lot harder to neutralise.
Also, with their lance gun it's not just 1 Str 6 shot. It's up to 3. With guide or even ancestors grace that's usually 2 or 3 reliably.
Wyldcarde wrote: I assume you are talking about shadow spectres. That's good points regarding the smaller units. Tho I do feel like the Full squad benefits from the psychic support a lot more (which they want for their guns) in that it's better guiding a unit of 10 and word of the Phoenix them. Tho 10 is a big ol target for the enemy whereas 3x4 would be a lot harder to neutralise.
Also, with their lance gun it's not just 1 Str 6 shot. It's up to 3. With guide or even ancestors grace that's usually 2 or 3 reliably.
You are correct its not 1 shot... Typically I get about 5-6 hits i find.. I did not do the math if that is average or not. But averagely for 4d6 flamers.. you are getting 14 hits. s5 and s6 wound <=T4 on 3s and T7 on 5s. Its that mid ground where maybe you would consider that difference. But i find the more dice you have the better it usually is.
^ I do use the lance tho. Some targets are just to far away! Or if you really want a few models to go away (-3 AP).
All around, spectres are super good, because they can flex to the situation. Use them!
Yeah. The ap -3 definitely balances out the fire modes. And the extra range.
The flamer is a great option tho. And also as charge defence.
Being -1 (or 2 with conceal) to hit at range and having to weather d6 auto hits per spectre to charge is a nasty choice to make.
BrainCandy wrote: As it stands, IG is clearly the most powerful army by a comfortable margin. Meanwhile, Edlar has the problem of some units costing waaaay too much. For example, someone is going to need to explain to me why one Eldar Ranger costs as much as 4 Ratlings.
That said, your list seems a bit mismatched. You had nary an ounce of anti-horde in it. The Eldar don't have infantry sweeping elite units/vehicles like some other armies do. However, we do have basic troops that could a lot of dakka on target. I don't know what models you have, given your Drukhari mini's I'll assume you have more of them. I few Raiders flying around loaded with Kabalite warriors would do a little something. Killing his Kommisars are key also. Even if you get into melee, he can fall back and use an order to shoot you anyway. I personally run guardian heavy Ynnari, almost exclusively made of Craftworld units. Guardians with Farseer and Warlock buffs will mow down Conscripts. With Razorwings to screen them and provide reliable Soulburst it would be even better.
The army was a test for multiple ideas I had about the army, things that I wanted responses from and things I pretty much knew they suck but wanted confirmation.
Obviously, the army looks like a joke compared to my opponent's. He's not even an AM player, he borrowed an army from a friend and he just wanted to use it to learn how to play against it when he'll face AM in tournaments. We both agreed that AM is far from balanced right now.
Overall I'm not a DE player, I just proxed the hellions with harlequin players to test them out. I can prox venoms with starweavers, but for now I'm still in the "try stuff out" phase. The least drukhari I use, the happiest I am
As said I'll try out the whole thing again this weekend with some changes (back to more spears, hemlock, WS+FD and if I can find a FW manual I'd die to try spectres as well, it's time since I think they're an amazing Ynnari unit).
I'll let you guys know, hopefully dodging AM this time.
Has anyone had success running a slightly larger group of Spectres with a Warlock Skyrunner for the added -1 to hit? Seems to me having a pretty durable unit (-2 to hit with 3+ save) that can dish out some punishment to hordes, MEQ and light vehicles could be really effective.
Also, anyone have success with the Solitaire? I've been thinking of adding him to tie up Devastator or heavy weapon infantry/heavy infantry units.
wannabmoy wrote: Has anyone had success running a slightly larger group of Spectres with a Warlock Skyrunner for the added -1 to hit? Seems to me having a pretty durable unit (-2 to hit with 3+ save) that can dish out some punishment to hordes, MEQ and light vehicles could be really effective.
Two factors to keep in mind. Points you are dedicating to one source. And second, target aggro. You have me curious though and I am going to try this on my next game. o7
A squad of 5 is only 115 points i think? which is not that bad. Even a full squad of 10 isn't all that expensive and is a melee armies nightmare (10d6 auto hits on overwatch). I have been using my hemlocks for the occasional conceal.. but a warlock has more potential.
I will do this on Thursday and post some feedback.
wannabmoy wrote: Also, anyone have success with the Solitaire? I've been thinking of adding him to tie up Devastator or heavy weapon infantry/heavy infantry units.
I have run him a couple times. He is not the beast he once was. But fill essentially the same roll. You charge him into units already engaged so he doesnt suffer overwatch. He kills ~2-3 MEQ if you have good rolls.. which doesnt do anything alone, but does do well if another squad was there doing about the same. now you made morale useful. Better yet is attacking light vehicles. T5-T6... like he chews up Druhkari. kiss at d3D is awesome.
wannabmoy wrote: Has anyone had success running a slightly larger group of Spectres with a Warlock Skyrunner for the added -1 to hit? Seems to me having a pretty durable unit (-2 to hit with 3+ save) that can dish out some punishment to hordes, MEQ and light vehicles could be really effective.
Two factors to keep in mind. Points you are dedicating to one source. And second, target aggro. You have me curious though and I am going to try this on my next game. o7
A squad of 5 is only 115 points i think? which is not that bad. Even a full squad of 10 isn't all that expensive and is a melee armies nightmare (10d6 auto hits on overwatch). I have been using my hemlocks for the occasional conceal.. but a warlock has more potential.
I will do this on Thursday and post some feedback.
wannabmoy wrote: Also, anyone have success with the Solitaire? I've been thinking of adding him to tie up Devastator or heavy weapon infantry/heavy infantry units.
I have run him a couple times. He is not the beast he once was. But fill essentially the same roll. You charge him into units already engaged so he doesnt suffer overwatch. He kills ~2-3 MEQ if you have good rolls.. which doesnt do anything alone, but does do well if another squad was there doing about the same. now you made morale useful. Better yet is attacking light vehicles. T5-T6... like he chews up Druhkari. kiss at d3D is awesome.
Thanks I'm really excited to hear the feedback! I've been messing around with what i'll call a ghost-clown ynnari army (wraith, clowns and shadow spectre) and really love the synergy between d-scythes and the spectres. I've been contemplating running the larger squad of spectres with the lock to add to the target aggro and they're pretty durable and hard to kill with the -2 to hit and 3+ save. Give them cover as well and now we're talking. They're also pretty reasonable in terms of price and very versatile. They're quick and can grab objectives, can kill light vehicles, MEQ and hordes.
At this point, I'm debating whether to take a single solitaire or a squad of 5 SS. Leaning more towards the spectres at this point for overall utility.
luke1705 wrote:How do you guys feel about the Skatach Wraithknights? I know they're more points but getting the drop turn 1 and never getting shot before they shoot (well except Tau) is pretty nice, plus I think both the Inferno Lance and the Deahshroud cannon is better than any of the normal WK options.
I am unsure if you play ITC or not, but I believe there is going to be a ban on PL31+ units. I think the Skatach is 32?
Well that would be sad. I do think that it's a tough distinction as to what should be allowed. Might be worth some discussion in a different thread.
I've been playing around with a ynnari army which has a solid core of 2 units of warp spiders, unit of shadow spectres, hemlock and warlock sky runner both with conceal.
Then backed up by a Phoenix and swooping Hawks and eldrad and yvraine. And a couple of razorwing flock for soulburst.
Hemlock conceals all first turn and then warlock takes over conceal duties while the hemlock smites. Swooping Hawks and Phoenix with nightfire missiles add additional -1 to hit modifiers to problem units.
It has proven pretty effective in circumstances and dishes out a whole lot of Str 6 attacks. It is fairly reliant on its psychic phase and certain models can really disrupt it.
Unfortunately the wording on the hawks and the nightfire missiles means the -1 to hit only lasts til end of turn. Which does help in close combat if you jump in. Also can help when you can soulburst on your opponent's turn to apply the modifier.
It is a very mobile force tho but being elite expensive units there is not a lot of padding. It also engages at short range making it a balancing act of getting too close and exposing it to too much firepower (especially in deployment) and being too far away to actually do anything. But -2 to hit with a 2+ save when in cover is a fairly survivable unit.
And the flamer mode on the spectres guns help with the close combat weakness. Tho the whole army having fly is really good. Makes them difficult to pin down especially in combat. I've had a few opponents get their ordering in combat wrong allowing me to soulburst out of danger.
Hi everyone,
As anticipated, today I’ve put my harlequins aside one more time to test out a new version of my Ynnari.
I was facing my good ol' opponent, he brought one of his armies this time (Nids), in the shape of a tournament list with a pretty straightforward battle plan: to not even let me play my first turn. Swarmy+3 tyrant guards, brood lord, 3+3 hive guards, 20+20 genestealers, 20 gaunts (10 dakka, 10 vanilla), 3 Venompthrothings, 2 Trygon primes.
I’m using version two of the list that got trashed by LeBalanced Astra Militarium. I found the rules for spectres at last (I couldn’t wait for trying them) and I cut off some stuff to make room for them. Double outrider detachment, first with milady Yvraine, 4 Spectres+exarch, 2x4Spears+exarch, 4xFlocks, 4 Reapers+Exarch, Hemlock. Second one with Yncarne, 10+10 Hellions, 4xFlocks, 4 Reapers+Exarch.
He left out both trygons with 20 genestealers and 20 gaunt to burst out after them. Basically, he had so few units that I only deployed razorwing flocks unit he was done. That made him think pretty hard not having clues of what I was planning to do to avoid his EVIDENT alpha strike. I had to chose map and opted for Hammer and Anvil and deployed as far as I could from him.
And I had (kinda) of a plan. He had to deploy everything within some sort of 9-12” to both his synapsis and venomthrostuffs, so he was bound to his genestealers to sling them with Swarmy basically where he wanted, plus the trygons and their stuff coming first turn also. I deployed my razorwings to make a “barrier” through which he couldn’t charge (without shooting at them first) and 7” from that line I deployed basically all my shooting stuff, so that for each RW dead I had a soulburst on the geno or whatever I felt like blasting. He welcomed my move with a series of friendly insults and jokes, but praised the idea and in fact I managed to hold him back a little, as the genestealers only destroyed those poor flappy birds and he didn’t manage to charge my stuff behind.
Things weren’t that good though, I had 2 Trygons, a 40sh of stealers and some dakkagaunt to take care of, and the smiling (?) Swarmlord in the second wave. At the end of my turn 1 had only had two flocks remaining, but I spent them for a ton of useful soulbursting and spears-spectres-hemlock managed to do a crazy ton of work. Gene+Brood are still OP and they could cut a way through my lines to kill those reapers who were literally gaking on his army. I had the Yncarne battling Swarmy and that was epic. More about it later.
In the end - with a little help from the dice ending the game on turn 5 - we had both 1 objective, so a hard-fought draw for me this time, not an easy task against a skilled opponent and an aggressive army.
Probably without the Hammer and Anvil deployment I couldn’t do any trick, but the fact that we can shoot from our dying screens is gold.
Time for school marks:
- Yvraine: I’ll marry her this summer, so yeah, between us all is well. Jokes aside, the reapers had good targets and she provided an extra shot each turn quite regularly, plus being awesome, plus other random help in CC. 9/10
- Yncarne: this big boy had a good time vs Swarmy, who had more wounds, attacks and Strength, but looses power over time. In the end, each Wound I did counted more, each he did wasn’t useful for crippling me. I rolled a juicy 6 on damage during the second turn of CC, taking him down to 5, at that point even though he rolled the s**t out of his 4++, Swarmy was doomed. He killed the Yncarne soon after, but it was worth. 8/10
- Spectres: jeez. Tell me again about their flamers, baby. And their -1 to be hit. And their other gun profile that generates more hits if you roll well. THAT’S the unit I was looking for. Born to be Ynnari. 9/10
- Spears: now we’re talking. The target for them is very important, vs AM that simply couldn’t do enough. 7/10
- Razorwing Flocks: tactical MVP. Running 8 of them is a risk in case of KP, but I noticed a big difference from 6 to 8. 9/10
- Reapers: that’s pure heavy metal man! Tell me again about that pair of Trygons my opponent had! 10/10
- Hemlock: I already tried him out 2 or 3 matches ago, but this time he took more of the support role, which I think he fits in well. Hard to take down, it simply moves in squares around the map shooting his S8 stuff and casting conceal where it sees fit. A solid 7/10
Hi everyone,
As anticipated, today I’ve put my harlequins aside one more time to test out a new version of my Ynnari.
I was facing my good ol' opponent, he brought one of his armies this time (Nids), in the shape of a tournament list with a pretty straightforward battle plan: to not even let me play my first turn. Swarmy+3 tyrant guards, brood lord, 3+3 hive guards, 20+20 genestealers, 20 gaunts (10 dakka, 10 vanilla), 3 Venompthrothings, 2 Trygon primes.
I’m using version two of the list that got trashed by LeBalanced Astra Militarium. I found the rules for spectres at last (I couldn’t wait for trying them) and I cut off some stuff to make room for them. Double outrider detachment, first with milady Yvraine, 4 Spectres+exarch, 2x4Spears+exarch, 4xFlocks, 4 Reapers+Exarch, Hemlock. Second one with Yncarne, 10+10 Hellions, 4xFlocks, 4 Reapers+Exarch.
He left out both trygons with 20 genestealers and 20 gaunt to burst out after them. Basically, he had so few units that I only deployed razorwing flocks unit he was done. That made him think pretty hard not having clues of what I was planning to do to avoid his EVIDENT alpha strike. I had to chose map and opted for Hammer and Anvil and deployed as far as I could from him.
And I had (kinda) of a plan. He had to deploy everything within some sort of 9-12” to both his synapsis and venomthrostuffs, so he was bound to his genestealers to sling them with Swarmy basically where he wanted, plus the trygons and their stuff coming first turn also. I deployed my razorwings to make a “barrier” through which he couldn’t charge (without shooting at them first) and 7” from that line I deployed basically all my shooting stuff, so that for each RW dead I had a soulburst on the geno or whatever I felt like blasting. He welcomed my move with a series of friendly insults and jokes, but praised the idea and in fact I managed to hold him back a little, as the genestealers only destroyed those poor flappy birds and he didn’t manage to charge my stuff behind.
Things weren’t that good though, I had 2 Trygons, a 40sh of stealers and some dakkagaunt to take care of, and the smiling (?) Swarmlord in the second wave. At the end of my turn 1 had only had two flocks remaining, but I spent them for a ton of useful soulbursting and spears-spectres-hemlock managed to do a crazy ton of work. Gene+Brood are still OP and they could cut a way through my lines to kill those reapers who were literally gaking on his army. I had the Yncarne battling Swarmy and that was epic. More about it later.
In the end - with a little help from the dice ending the game on turn 5 - we had both 1 objective, so a hard-fought draw for me this time, not an easy task against a skilled opponent and an aggressive army.
Probably without the Hammer and Anvil deployment I couldn’t do any trick, but the fact that we can shoot from our dying screens is gold.
Time for school marks:
- Yvraine: I’ll marry her this summer, so yeah, between us all is well. Jokes aside, the reapers had good targets and she provided an extra shot each turn quite regularly, plus being awesome, plus other random help in CC. 9/10
- Yncarne: this big boy had a good time vs Swarmy, who had more wounds, attacks and Strength, but looses power over time. In the end, each Wound I did counted more, each he did wasn’t useful for crippling me. I rolled a juicy 6 on damage during the second turn of CC, taking him down to 5, at that point even though he rolled the s**t out of his 4++, Swarmy was doomed. He killed the Yncarne soon after, but it was worth. 8/10
- Spectres: jeez. Tell me again about their flamers, baby. And their -1 to be hit. And their other gun profile that generates more hits if you roll well. THAT’S the unit I was looking for. Born to be Ynnari. 9/10
- Spears: now we’re talking. The target for them is very important, vs AM that simply couldn’t do enough. 7/10
- Razorwing Flocks: tactical MVP. Running 8 of them is a risk in case of KP, but I noticed a big difference from 6 to 8. 9/10
- Reapers: that’s pure heavy metal man! Tell me again about that pair of Trygons my opponent had! 10/10
- Hemlock: I already tried him out 2 or 3 matches ago, but this time he took more of the support role, which I think he fits in well. Hard to take down, it simply moves in squares around the map shooting his S8 stuff and casting conceal where it sees fit. A solid 7/10
That’s all folks!
Hemlock is s10 shooting just for corrections sake (for those random people who use dakka for their rulebook )
Good write up! Glad things went pretty well for you. I love spectres they are auto include in my Ynnari.
Just a note, and maybe this was followed, but remember that you cannot deploy more than half your army in reserves. So just be careful to watch how many drops your opponent leaves off the board because maybe he forgot, or just didnt know. FULL null deploys are no longer a thing.
I think you have definitely touched on the aeldari units that benefit most from soulburst, with the exception of probably fire dragons as well.
I have also been toying with the idea of running a corsair unit or two as a bit of a screen for the deep strike charge. They won't help against the trygon but being able to overwatch on the genestealers and if they kill one falling back 3 inches should keep them out of charge range. Armed with shard carbines gives 3 shots per model at 11 ppm. So a unit of 10 comes in at not too much and throws out 30 shots on overwatch.
If you want screeners it's hard to do better than Razorwing Flocks. At first I was running some singletons to get more out of Soulburst, but now I use two 12-flock units and a Beastmaster. They're excellent early screeners that can keep up with your skimmers and bikes, and then they tie things up beautifully. They actually do okay damage with the Beastmaster there, and, while you'll often have better uses for it, Doom almost doubles their output.
Grizzyzz wrote: Hemlock is s10 shooting just for corrections sake (for those random people who use dakka for their rulebook )
Good write up! Glad things went pretty well for you. I love spectres they are auto include in my Ynnari.
Just a note, and maybe this was followed, but remember that you cannot deploy more than half your army in reserves. So just be careful to watch how many drops your opponent leaves off the board because maybe he forgot, or just didnt know. FULL null deploys are no longer a thing.
Cheers o7
Yep, S10. Mah bad. Thanks for pointing that out.
Nope, he was fine, 4 units in reserve (2 trygons, 1 geno, 1 gaunts) of about 10.
Wyldcarde wrote:Good write up.
I think you have definitely touched on the aeldari units that benefit most from soulburst, with the exception of probably fire dragons as well.
I have also been toying with the idea of running a corsair unit or two as a bit of a screen for the deep strike charge. They won't help against the trygon but being able to overwatch on the genestealers and if they kill one falling back 3 inches should keep them out of charge range. Armed with shard carbines gives 3 shots per model at 11 ppm. So a unit of 10 comes in at not too much and throws out 30 shots on overwatch.
Yeah. I ended up concluding that any unit that is good on its own benefits the most from soulburst. Good luck on gettin anything from Hekatrix Bloodbrides or Howling Banshees, just to say.
Corsairs sound fair enough, for that purpose. I just don't have many experience with Drukhari so I mostly run Craftworlders/Harlequins, but they sound good enough for your plan.
Beside that, Razorwing Flocks are probably the enabler for our army. Without them causing soulburst (and I'm saying this because could happen that they wil no longer provide that when the official codex releases) I find much harder to base an army on the rule like I tried to do in my recent games. Yes, rule's still pretty good and you'd choose it above Battle Focus anyways, but not that good without those flappy birds.
I completely missed their screening capabilities on previous matches, they're so versatile that now I cannot leave without at least 6x of them, better 8x, best (but non likely I'll do it even in Outrider detachments) 12x.
It's not only working well on their own but also being at the range to benefit. So spectres, warp spiders and shining spears all operate well at the 6" range and are mobile enough to get there, so will naturally be in soulburst range when the enemy dies. Reapers not so much, but are a perfect target for word of the Phoenix. With flier spam becoming more prevelant reaper's worth is rising sharply.
And you are convincing me to field more flock. I currently have 3 or 4 x 1 for soulburst but may have to try out 2x 4 flocks.
Yes. This is kinda what I had in mind when I first read the rules of Ynnari and thought: "OMG. Just got a nasty idea". I think I explained here the idea before going for the tests.
The part my army was missing were Shadow Spectres, having their rules was the turning point. Now, like you said, all army is optimised to play around razorwings and their death, basically going for what I aimed: "play twice and make it sound fair".
I think there's still room for optimising. I'll work on it and I'll post it here if I get satisfying results. It might require some spamming of "above average" units, but it has always worked like that.
D6Damager wrote: Now that flocks are more expensive and min size 3 are people still using them? Also what about d-scythe wraithguard in a serpent?
No, Razorwings flocks are dead now. The points increase isn't the issue, it is the minimum unit size. For Ynnari, a single flock was ideal for Soulburst bait, but since you cannot do singles, all the opponent needs to do is kill 1-2 and the remaining flocks will flee, which DOES NOT provide a Soulburst
A large unit is an accompanying Beastmaster is ok, but ends up being a tons of points
D-scythes in serpents, on the other hand, seem to be a near mandatory inclusion for competitive players. I haven't seen many (successful) tournament lists without them.
If you can't find 2+ units in your list, take something out to fit them in.
D6Damager wrote: Now that flocks are more expensive and min size 3 are people still using them? Also what about d-scythe wraithguard in a serpent?
No, Razorwings flocks are dead now. The points increase isn't the issue, it is the minimum unit size. For Ynnari, a single flock was ideal for Soulburst bait, but since you cannot do singles, all the opponent needs to do is kill 1-2 and the remaining flocks will flee, which DOES NOT provide a Soulburst
A large unit is an accompanying Beastmaster is ok, but ends up being a tons of points
D-scythes in serpents, on the other hand, seem to be a near mandatory inclusion for competitive players. I haven't seen many (successful) tournament lists without them.
If you can't find 2+ units in your list, take something out to fit them in.
-
Yeah the points isnt the problem..... I do however use Claw Fiends and they work really well. They either shoot and kill them to give me a SB action or take -1ap multi S5 2D hits and tie up units in melee
I've been taking 3 units of 1, and they are fun and effective.
Shadow Spectres are pretty clutch, giving a solid unit to help deal with masses infantry while still having game against anything with Marine armour or equivalent.
I have found 2 units of D-Scythes in Serpents just too many points in too few units to be able to keep up with objective scoring. Yes they are solid, but that's 2/5ths of your army in 2 troops and their transports. Prob doesn't help in my army with 2 Hemlocks as I need those extra points for more mobile objective scoring units, but then I find the Hemlocks far more tactically versatile and they come in just over half the points of the Wraithguard with their transport.
Hi guys. It looks like we Ynnari players have been relegated from the Craftworlds thread (no bad blood! I understand it ). So I think it's a good moment to bring this thread back.
Have anyone read the Ynnari rules in the reboxed Triumvirate? I asume they are unchanged, but it's important to confirm it.
I think choosing the best way of combining the best bennefits from CWE and Ynnari is a good chance for renewed discussion.
Well, I can understand the pure CW players.
Ynnari requires different strategies and tactics to be successful at the battle field.
Atm, I'd consider a mix of CW and Ynnari detachments.
I'm willing to take shooty support units of type Alaitoc, say Rangers, DRs, and Fire Prisms.
On the other hand, units that need to go up and personal such as Fire Dragons and Wraithguard are better suited to benefit from SfD.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I can understand the pure CW players.
Ynnari requires different strategies and tactics to be successful at the battle field.
Atm, I'd consider a mix of CW and Ynnari detachments.
I'm willing to take shooty support units of type Alaitoc, say Rangers, DRs, and Fire Prisms.
On the other hand, units that need to go up and personal such as Fire Dragons and Wraithguard are better suited to benefit from SfD.
Yep, thats what i would do, Alaitoc Rangers, Dark Reapers and Long Range in general, Ynnari Fire Dragons DSing etc...
FDs and WG go into the Serpents accompanied by the Spiritseers for smite.
Why don't you put the WS in the Alaitoc detachment? they would benefit from the Alaitoc trait and allow units inside exactly the same. Plus they gain nothing from bein Ynnari.
Xenomancers wrote:
Wyldcarde wrote: I would still run reapers as ynnari. Purely for word of the Phoenix.
Absolutely. However - being ynnari only means you lose battle focus. You don't lose your craftworld army trait.
That's not right. Only a Craftworld detachment with no Ynnari models bennefit from a Craftworlds army trait.
FDs and WG go into the Serpents accompanied by the Spiritseers for smite.
Why don't you put the WS in the Alaitoc detachment? they would benefit from the Alaitoc trait and allow units inside exactly the same. Plus they gain nothing from bein Ynnari.
I absolutely agree. Remember that just because Ynnari units cannot be in CW detachment, does not mean they cannot still chose an CW keyword. Your Ynnari WG/Dragons can still be <Alaitoc> and thus be able to embark onto <Alaitoc> Serpents. The Serpents will get the -1 to hit Attribute as they are in a CW detachment, but the WG and Dragons will not because they are in an Ynnari detachment.
Why don't you put the WS in the Alaitoc detachment? they would benefit from the Alaitoc trait and allow units inside exactly the same. Plus they gain nothing from bein Ynnari.
Right. I recognized this too late (by reading Galef's thread).
Scourges are also on my radar 
), twin Avenger Shuriken catapults or bare bones to save points?
