If a model is equipped with a pistol and a grenade, can it throw the grenade when within 1" of an enemy model?

 drone9 wrote:
If a model is equipped with a pistol and a grenade, can it throw the grenade when within 1" of an enemy model?

No.

Follow Up Question: What would give you the impression that you could?

Pistol reads:

A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but it must target the closest enemy unit. [...]

Grenade reads:

Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one instead of firing any other weapon.

So the argument was that if the unit is shooting (i.e. their pistols while within 1'') they might be allowed to switch one for a grenade.

 drone9 wrote:
Pistol reads:

A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but it must target the closest enemy unit. [...]

Grenade reads:

Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one instead of firing any other weapon.

So the argument was that if the unit is shooting (i.e. their pistols while within 1'') they might be allowed to switch one for a grenade.

Fair enough. The answer is still no, because the grenade doesn't have the rule allowing you to fire it within 1". That rule doesn't magically go away because you own a pistol, it goes away if you want to fire the pistol.

Roger that. Thank you!

Yes, grenades can be "fired" in close combat because it falls under the "any other weapon" category. In other words, if the model has a pistol, it can "shoot" a grenade instead.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Yes, grenades can be "fired" in close combat because it falls under the "any other weapon" category. In other words, if the model has a pistol, it can "shoot" a grenade instead.

No, they can't. You are 100% wrong. Please don't spread disinformation. The rule is "A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit", not If the model has a pistol it can shoot whatever it wants.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 drone9 wrote:
Pistol reads:

A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but it must target the closest enemy unit. [...]

Grenade reads:

Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one instead of firing any other weapon.

So the argument was that if the unit is shooting (i.e. their pistols while within 1'') they might be allowed to switch one for a grenade.

Fair enough. The answer is still no, because the grenade doesn't have the rule allowing you to fire it within 1". That rule doesn't magically go away because you own a pistol, it goes away if you want to fire the pistol.

The grenade doesn't need the rule itself, its own rules allow for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Yes, grenades can be "fired" in close combat because it falls under the "any other weapon" category. In other words, if the model has a pistol, it can "shoot" a grenade instead.

No, they can't. You are 100% wrong. Please don't spread disinformation. The rule is "A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit", not If the model has a pistol it can shoot whatever it wants.

Read the grenade rules. They are on page 180 of the rulebook. Also, that wasn't the question.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Read the grenade rules. They are on page 180 of the rulebook.

I did, at no point does it waive the 1" rule. The pistol rule does not daisy chain into it. I'll leave it at that because otherwise you'll just end up flamebaiting me and I'll get a warning.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Read the grenade rules. They are on page 180 of the rulebook.

I did, at no point does it waive the 1" rule. The pistol rule does not daisy chain into it. I'll leave it at that because otherwise you'll just end up flamebaiting me and I'll get a warning.

I'm not trying to bait you in any way, just trying to make sure the poster got his/her question answered correctly. If you get a warning, that's on you. Anybody else want to jump in on this one?

I don't agree you can throw a Grenade within an inch, but your argument is compelling! BCB is usually a RAW stickler so surprised he's vehemently against this one! It's certainly a reading that you could apply...

I agree with Gordon. RAW allows a grenade to be thrown instead of firing any other weapon. A pistol is any other weapon. You can shoot pistols if you are within 1" of an enemy unit. So, you can throw a grenade in CC, instead of shooting your pistol.

p5freak wrote:
I agree with Gordon. RAW allows a grenade to be thrown instead of firing any other weapon. A pistol is any other weapon. You can shoot pistols if you are within 1" of an enemy unit. So, you can throw a grenade in CC, instead of shooting your pistol.

You stated it better than I, and I really don't see a RAW reading around it.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I don't agree you can throw a Grenade within an inch, but your argument is compelling! BCB is usually a RAW stickler so surprised he's vehemently against this one! It's certainly a reading that you could apply...

Because RaW doesn't support throwing grenades within 1 inch. What a shock! This is the same nonsense as World Eater Sorcerers. One rule allowing something doesn't suddenly make all previous rules vanish.

The rules say you can throw a grenade instead of another weapon. The pistol rule says you can shoot a pistol. This doesn't suddenly mean you can throw a grenade while within 1 inch.

Is a pistol another weapon? We are talking in circles again. I really can't believe this hasn't come up before here but my Google fu isn't taking me anywhere useful. Anybody else want to jump into the debate?

Which rule doesnt allow me to throw a grenade in CC ? Citation please.

p5freak wrote:
Which rule doesnt allow me to throw a grenade in CC ? Citation please.

Literally 8 pages of rules.

1. Choose Unit to Shoot With
In your Shooting phase you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons. First, you must pick one of your units to shoot with. You may not pick a unit that Advanced or Fell Back this turn, or a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit.

You wanna go down the route of "My RaW has to be correct because I said so?" Let's pull out the fact you can never fire Pistols within 1" anyway because of this rule, because the Pistol rule never allows the unit to be selected. Nor does the pistol rule somehow daisy chain and allow you to throw a grenade. The rule even explicitly says you can only fire a pistol. As with the WE Sorcerer Nonsense, people are taking a special rule and then ignoring all the restrictions from previous special rules, despite the 2nd rule not actually removing any of the restrictions that the 1st rule imposed.

Your record is stuck, dude. Please stop posting that... it's like the Godwin's Law of YMDC right now...

It doesn't help what's being discussed in any way, as no one in the world would play it that way.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Your record is stuck, dude. Please stop posting that... it's like the Godwin's Law of YMDC right now...

It doesn't help what's being discussed in any way, as no one in the world would play it that way.

I sure would insist on it if my opponent insisted he could throw grenades in combat, when you can't.

But I didn't listen to my own advice and got flamebaited once again. Yay me, I'm so amazing.

So are you saying that pistols can't be fired in melee now? I'm not really sure...

Sorry, I'm not flamebaiting... just a genuine plea. So many people post it so often and it does nothing to assist anyone.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Sorry, I'm not flamebaiting... just a genuine plea. So many people post it so often and it does nothing to assist anyone.

I think He was talking about me, and I'm not really sure where he thinks I did it, but whatever.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
So are you saying that pistols can't be fired in melee now? I'm not really sure...

Yes, because of poor rule wording, GW didnt use the words unit and model properly. Its a non-issue, because anyone with a brain can figure out the way its meant to be.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/730922.page

Oh, well...okay then.

p5freak wrote:
I agree with Gordon. RAW allows a grenade to be thrown instead of firing any other weapon. A pistol is any other weapon. You can shoot pistols if you are within 1" of an enemy unit. So, you can throw a grenade in CC, instead of shooting your pistol.

From the Battle Primer

Each time a model equipped with both a Pistol and another type of ranged weapon (e.g. a Pistol and a Rapid Fire weapon) shoots, it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with all of its other weapons.

This conflicts with the grenade rule as a grenade is another type of ranged weapon so by choosing to use a grenade you are not choosing to make a pistol attack and therefore do not get around the 1" rule. To make any other interpretation opens up any kind of shooting within 1" as long as you have a pistol somewhere about your person.

All I will say further is, use common sense or we will have to get Phil Barker (google Barkerese) to write the rules and then you will be sorry

I agree that RAW would allow you to shoot it in combat, it would need to say "may throw a grenade instead of firing any other weapons" in order to deny it. Another quirk of this rule that I just thought of would be that if you had multiple (non pistol) guns on a single model you could throw a grenade and still shoot all but 1 of your guns. I will be sticking to sacrificing all weapons for a grenade and not being able to throw them in combat though.

 ZenBadger wrote:


From the Battle Primer

Each time a model equipped with both a Pistol and another type of ranged weapon (e.g. a Pistol and a Rapid Fire weapon) shoots, it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with all of its other weapons.

This conflicts with the grenade rule as a grenade is another type of ranged weapon so by choosing to use a grenade you are not choosing to make a pistol attack and therefore do not get around the 1" rule. To make any other interpretation opens up any kind of shooting within 1" as long as you have a pistol somewhere about your person.

I dont choose to throw a grenade in the first place. My first choice is to shoot with the pistol, because the rules allow it. Then i choose the grenade, because the rules allow me to throw a grenade instead of shooting with any other weapon. A pistol is any other weapon which can shoot.

To sum up:

Argument by BCB: Shooting is not allowed for units within 1’’ of an enemy unit. Only the rules for pistols explicitly grant an exception to this. Since the rules for grenades do not explicitly say so, when switching from pistol to grenade the general shooting rule takes precedence.

Argument by Gordon et al.: Grenades can be thrown instead of shooting any other weapon. A pistol qualifies as any other weapon. A pistol can be fired while within 1'' of an enemy unit. Therefor grenades can be used instead of firing a pistol while in CC.

The Pistol rule does preclude it... good spot. If you're choosing Pistols you can't fire the other weapon types.

We're back to normality :-)

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The Pistol rule does preclude it... good spot. If you're choosing Pistols you can't fire the other weapon types.

We're back to normality :-)

Indeed!

Thank you all!

It's simple.

Step one. First you pick a unit to shoot.

Then you pick the weapon/s to shoot for each model. Each model gets a simple choice at this point.

1 All their not grenade and not pistol guns.

2 All their pistols.

3 A grenade.

You don't pick one option and then switch to another. You pick one.

You cannot gain the benefit of pistols with grenades because the moment you pick pistols you have already not chosen a grenade in the same way that you have not chosen all your other guns. You are now locked into pistols.

Done.

Ok, i see your point. I have to choose a weapon, and cant switch later. I agree. But i still can throw a grenade in CC. I pick the grenade, because i can use it instead of firing any other weapon. The pistol can be fired in CC. The pistol is any other weapon.

p5freak wrote:
Ok, i see your point. I have to choose a weapon, and cant switch later. I agree. But i still can throw a grenade in CC. I pick the grenade, because i can use it instead of firing any other weapon. The pistol can be fired in CC. The pistol is any other weapon.

The pistol is indeed a "other weapon", but it is also the only weapon allowed by rules to shoot while within 1" of enemy models. You do not get to shoot grenades while in combat unless GW erratas grenades to work within 1"

Pistols only.

The whole point of the pistol rule is that other weapons are too dangerous to shoot within 1" because you'd harm one of your own models due to being too close.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that throwing a grenade within 1" might fall under harming your own models due to being to close.

In any case, Noise Marines can all throw their grenades as they die while in CC. GW confirmed it and their rule allows them to shoot within 1". Maybe you can dissect the wording of that rule to see what makes it different.

 Arkaine wrote:
In any case, Noise Marines can all throw their grenades as they die while in CC. GW confirmed it and their rule allows them to shoot within 1". Maybe you can dissect the wording of that rule to see what makes it different.

That's because their special rule allows them too? You might as well say "Some tau units hit overwatch on a 5+, therefore ALL UNITS DO."

from RAW it seems like it would work, but I'd Blame it on GW gakky rule writing and rule in favor of note being able to do so until an FAQ comes out...

p5freak wrote:
Ok, i see your point. I have to choose a weapon, and cant switch later. I agree. But i still can throw a grenade in CC. I pick the grenade, because i can use it instead of firing any other weapon. The pistol can be fired in CC. The pistol is any other weapon.

You can't throw a grenade in CC, because its a shooting attack and shooting attacks CANNOT TARGET A UNIT WITHIN 1". Only pistols have that special ability, and grenade lacks the special rule that pistols do.

So sure, you can choose to throw your grenade, instead of a pistol, at which point you fail to throw it because the enemy is within 1".

Agreed. If pistol and within 1" then you can shoot pistol. If you then nominate the grenades "use this instead of firing any other weapon" that also replaces all the special rules on said other weapon when using the Grenade. To insinuate otherwise would open the door to grenades using all other sorts of other weapons special rules. Are you suddenly going to supercharge that pistol then switch to Grenade to get 2 damage per wound but possibly "get hot" ? I didn't think so. Or I hope not.......

 argonak wrote:

You can't throw a grenade in CC, because its a shooting attack and shooting attacks CANNOT TARGET A UNIT WITHIN 1".

You are wrong. Where does it say that throwing a grenade is a shooting attack ? RAW : "Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one instead of firing any other weapon."

A grenade is not shot, its thrown. The 1" restriction does not apply, its not a shooting attack.

p5freak wrote:

 argonak wrote:

You can't throw a grenade in CC, because its a shooting attack and shooting attacks CANNOT TARGET A UNIT WITHIN 1".

You are wrong. Where does it say that throwing a grenade is a shooting attack ? RAW : "Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one instead of firing any other weapon."

A grenade is not shot, its thrown. The 1" restriction does not apply, its not a shooting attack.

Yes, it is a shooting attack, because it is a weapon type, found in the shooting rules. By your logic NO GUNS WHATSOEVER are shooting attacks, because hit dice are rolled for models, not units. And even then, you "roll hit dice", you don't shoot.

At this point, can we lock the thread please? p5freakMade is deliberately posting incorrect and false information, arguing in (what I hope to the Manperor of Mankind) bad faith, and wilfully choosing to ignore the facts.

I can't help but believe that you guys are doing it on purpose, it's pretty clear that you can't use a grenade in CC because of all the reasons mentioned earlier, at this point you just sound like those annoying people at the LGS who tells you they can do that because if you reaaally think too much about the wording of the rule it MAY imply that you can do that while you have five arguments against it, but they keep saying they're right with a sneaky smile and that's when you understand they're just TFG and they're never to be talked to again.

It's like this ridiculous argument where you can't target skimmers in CC because it doesn't have a base to measure it from. Well duh, use common sense. I know GW rules aren't written in the brightest of the manners but that doesn't mean EVERY rule is to be dissected to find a hidden meaning.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yes, it is a shooting attack, because it is a weapon type, found in the shooting rules.

Yes, the grenade is listed in the shooting rules. But a model doesnt shoot a grenade, it throws it.

p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yes, it is a shooting attack, because it is a weapon type, found in the shooting rules.

Yes, the grenade is listed in the shooting rules. But a model doesnt shoot a grenade, it throws it.

And since there are no functional rules for 'throwing', then a grenade does nothing.

 drone9 wrote:
To sum up:

Argument by BCB: Shooting is not allowed for units within 1’’ of an enemy unit. Only the rules for pistols explicitly grant an exception to this. Since the rules for grenades do not explicitly say so, when switching from pistol to grenade the general shooting rule takes precedence.

Argument by Gordon et al.: Grenades can be thrown instead of shooting any other weapon. A pistol qualifies as any other weapon. A pistol can be fired while within 1'' of an enemy unit. Therefor grenades can be used instead of firing a pistol while in CC.

They're both rationalized arguments.

When thinking of Rapid Fire/Assault/Heavy weaps, none of these have any clause and no one would argue their use in this case.

A Grenade says its eligible to be used if the unit is shooting. This may imply that even if 1 model used a pistol, the unit is shooting -> therefore the grenade can be used by 1 other model in the unit.

Grenades do not say they can be thrown within 1", and its very possible, but not for certain, that restriction takes precedent. So despite being eligible to be thrown/fired in its own right. The Unit (per Core shooting rules) has already been elected to Shoot, despite the 1" restriction in step 1 of the Shooting Phase.

But,

"[Step Two][Selecting Enemy Unit] Models cannot target enemy units that
are within 1" of friendly models – the risk
of hitting your own troops is too great."

"[Three] If a model has several
weapons, it can shoot all of them at the
same target, or it can shoot each at a
different enemy unit. Similarly, if a unit
contains more than one model, they can
shoot at the same, or different targets as
you choose. In either case, declare how
you will split the shooting unit’s shots
before any dice are rolled, and resolve
all the shots against one target before
moving on to the next."

...I'm of the notion that you've picked the unit for shooting, but that when you choose the model to throw the pineapple, that grenadier cannot target enemy units within 1" of friendly models. However, there is nothing that I can think of to cite that says the grenadier could not throw the grenade at a 2nd enemy unit not within 1" of your unit: it's eligible to be activated as a weapon because the unit has been activated in the Shooting Phase as the grenade rules describe, but the grenade rules to not allow it to be thrown at the unit within 1".

 Arkaine wrote:
In any case, Noise Marines can all throw their grenades as they die while in CC. GW confirmed it and their rule allows them to shoot within 1". Maybe you can dissect the wording of that rule to see what makes it different.

"Q: If a Noise Marine is slain whilst its unit is within 1" of an
enemy unit, can he use his Music of the Apocalypse ability to
shoot the unit that is within 1"?
A: Yes, but only with a Pistol."

This is from the Chaos Index FAQ. How are you interpreting it in the exact opposite way? Or reference where 'GW confirmed it.'

Mchaagen wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
In any case, Noise Marines can all throw their grenades as they die while in CC. GW confirmed it and their rule allows them to shoot within 1". Maybe you can dissect the wording of that rule to see what makes it different.

"Q: If a Noise Marine is slain whilst its unit is within 1" of an
enemy unit, can he use his Music of the Apocalypse ability to
shoot the unit that is within 1"?
A: Yes, but only with a Pistol."

This is from the Chaos Index FAQ. How are you interpreting it in the exact opposite way? Or reference where 'GW confirmed it.'

I'd say this shows that GW doesn't want any shenanigans with grenades when a model's unit is within 1" of an enemy unit.

 Overheal wrote:

 drone9 wrote:
To sum up:

Argument by BCB: Shooting is not allowed for units within 1’’ of an enemy unit. Only the rules for pistols explicitly grant an exception to this. Since the rules for grenades do not explicitly say so, when switching from pistol to grenade the general shooting rule takes precedence.

Argument by Gordon et al.: Grenades can be thrown instead of shooting any other weapon. A pistol qualifies as any other weapon. A pistol can be fired while within 1'' of an enemy unit. Therefor grenades can be used instead of firing a pistol while in CC.

They're both rationalized arguments.

Not quite.

One involves one Weapon Type invoking the special rules of another Weapon Type while processing its Attack, i.e. firing Grenades like a Pistol. Where do the Grenade Rules allow you to follow the special rules involved with another Weapon Type? Can I shoot a Grenade as Heavy 3 or Rapid Fire instead of using a Heavy Bolter or Boltgun? That is the premise behind using Grenades while within an inch of an enemy model.

I believe the Crazy Train is currently full, standing room only...

 Charistoph wrote:

 Overheal wrote:

 drone9 wrote:
To sum up:

Argument by BCB: Shooting is not allowed for units within 1’’ of an enemy unit. Only the rules for pistols explicitly grant an exception to this. Since the rules for grenades do not explicitly say so, when switching from pistol to grenade the general shooting rule takes precedence.

Argument by Gordon et al.: Grenades can be thrown instead of shooting any other weapon. A pistol qualifies as any other weapon. A pistol can be fired while within 1'' of an enemy unit. Therefor grenades can be used instead of firing a pistol while in CC.

They're both rationalized arguments.

Not quite.

One involves one Weapon Type invoking the special rules of another Weapon Type while processing its Attack, i.e. firing Grenades like a Pistol. Where do the Grenade Rules allow you to follow the special rules involved with another Weapon Type? Can I shoot a Grenade as Heavy 3 or Rapid Fire instead of using a Heavy Bolter or Boltgun? That is the premise behind using Grenades while within an inch of an enemy model.

but grenades are able to proc per their rule when their unit is eligible to shoot. Pistols being fired means the unit is shooting and is eligible to shoot. Because the unit is shooting grenades requirements are all lit, except that it can't target an enemy unit within 1" of friendly models.

It's not THAT crazy that one weapon can affect the functionality or usefulness of another weapon or attack: Markerligjts being a prime example as Heavy 1 ranged weapons that deal no damage, but that affect the shooting of friendly units. RAW I don't currently see how a model can't throw a grenade at a 2nd unit if it's already in a unit engaged in a close quarters pistol duel. It just says very plainly the grenade is eligible to be thrown if the unit is shooting.

Pistols don't ONLY have to be fired within 1". They can be fired at range. That's what the "or with all of it's other weapons" is about. When shooting at range.

Otherwise the 1" pistol rule is pointless. If you interpret it that way for the grenade, you'd have to interpret it that way for all since it says "all of it's other weapons" not "it's grenades".

There are essentially 2 separate rules for pistols:

1. Pistols can shoot within 1"

2. You can either fire pistols or all other weapons (obviously referring to being at range since pistols can still be shot at range, but no other weapons can be fired within 1").

These are 2 separate rules for pistols and 2 doesn't automatically apply when 1 is taking place.

 Overheal wrote:
but grenades are able to proc per their rule when their unit is eligible to shoot. Pistols being fired means the unit is shooting and is eligible to shoot. Because the unit is shooting grenades requirements are all lit, except that it can't target an enemy unit within 1" of friendly models.

No, they are not all lit. The exception that is in Grenades does not state that you choose another Weapon's restrictions in order to fire, but rather that Shooting the grenade takes any other Weapon's place. In addition, Pistols do not allow Grenades to be fired by the model when you select them to be fired.

In order to properly justify this, one of the following must be demonstrated:
1) One is allowed to switch Weapons during the process of Shooting, allowing the Pistol to grant its Shooting to another Ranged Weapon.
2) The Pistol may grant its ability to another Weapon Type.
3) A Ranged Weapon may take upon itself the Pistol's aspect to process.

None of these are in play. Allowing a Grenade not listed as a Pistol to fire as a Pistol is a deliberate obfuscation that relies on narrowly looking at one passage while ignoring the rest of the rules and adding a whole new set of rules to allow it in the meanwhile.

 Overheal wrote:
It's not THAT crazy that one weapon can affect the functionality or usefulness of another weapon or attack: Markerligjts being a prime example as Heavy 1 ranged weapons that deal no damage, but that affect the shooting of friendly units. RAW I don't currently see how a model can't throw a grenade at a 2nd unit if it's already in a unit engaged in a close quarters pistol duel. It just says very plainly the grenade is eligible to be thrown if the unit is shooting.

Markerlights have specific rules to affect other Weapons, where do Pistols state that other Weapons can be used at the same time in their place? Where do Grenades state they get to use another Weapon's profile or special rules?

Quite clearly, when you choose to Shoot the Pistol, one cannot Shoot the Grenade any more than one can shoot a Boltgun. The same would apply when one chooses to Shoot the Grenade, one cannot Shoot the Pistol or the Boltgun, or when one chooses to Shoot the Boltgun, one cannot choose the Shoot the Pistol or the Grenade. The rules covering Pistols and Grenades are quite clear in disallowing the other types to be in play when used.

So, NO, you cannot choose to Shoot a Grenade at the same time you can only Shoot a Pistol unless said Grenade is a Pistol type.

I agree that the RAI is that grenades cannot be used in CC. I also agree that the RAW is written in a way that allows them to be.

RAW is simply parsed thus:

Is your unit shooting? Then you may choose to "shoot" a grenade instead of whatever it is that you're shooting. Circumstances have very little bearing on the wording of the grenade rule. The only requisite of using a grenade is "Each time your unit shoots." How and why the unit is shooting is of no matter. Again, is the unit shooting? Then it may use a grenade. It really is quite simple.


Again, don't think that this is intended and would give my opponent a look of disdain as he chucked a grenade at the feet of his own troops.

What gives the grenade's "Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one..." precedence over the pistol's "...it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with all of its other weapons."?

 Ghaz wrote:
What gives the grenade's "Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one..." precedence over the pistol's "...it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with all of its other weapons."?

Nothing. No rule is broken there. You're not shooting with your pistol, you're shooting with your grenade. Again, the grenade rule doesn't care if you're shooting a pistol or a heavy weapon or a titan cannon. The grenade rule simply cares that the unit is shooting. That is all. Is the UNIT shooting? Then you may use a grenade.

In fact, the Grenade rule would even supersede the firing within 1" of a model, I would argue. The grenade rule gives you permission to fire a grenade if your unit is shooting. That is the only prerequisite. It is supposed to be understood that you'll not be able to fire a grenade within 1" of enemy models. Unfortunately, they wrote the grenade rule in such a way that it can be, until it's FAQed. Opinion mine.

Yes, a rule is broken if you throw a grenade with the pistols as the rule says "... it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with all of its other weapons..." It does not say "... it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) and a Grenade or with all of its other weapons and a Grenade..." The Pistol rule cares if you're using another type of weapon.

 Ghaz wrote:
Yes, a rule is broken if you throw a grenade with the pistols as the rule says "... it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with all of its other weapons..." It does not say "... it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) and a Grenade or with all of its other weapons and a Grenade..." The Pistol rule cares if you're using another type of weapon.

I'm not using a pistol or any other weapon. I'm using a grenade. No rule is broken. It is not the Pistol rule that is allowing you to use grenades. It is the Grenade rule. The Pistol rule is activating the shooting of the unit, which activates the Grenade rule. Again, Grenades don't care what you're shooting. Only that you're shooting. You're focusing on the wrong rule. The Pistol rule actually has no bearing whatsoever on the Grenade rule itself.

Again, is the unit shooting (no matter what they're shooting)? There is no other qualifier to the Grenade rule than that question. If the answer to that question is yes, under any circumstances, then a grenade may be used.

Edit: Also, the rule you quoted is referring to MODELS whereas Grenades only care about the UNIT. If the UNIT is shooting, a model may use a grenade instead of any other weapon (in this case, a pistol).

A little late to the party here, but I was under the impression you could use Krak Grenades in melee (against vehicles and tanks) but not frag against anything. In hindsight, I have no basis for this, and am double checking the rules right now. However, I also assumed that using the krak grenade removed a models melee, not its shooting a pistol in the shooting phase. Will report back once I reread the rules. I fear I'm mixing my edition ups.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So just read the rules. BaconCatBug has every right to be annoyed. The rules are super clean and cut here. There is no ambiguity, you guys are either not reading the rules, or you are intentionally misconstruing them.

Core rules state you cannot shoot in melee unless given explicit permission. Grenade type does not grant this permission.

This makes me sad, because I thought I could use Krak grenades... At least I still have my melta bombs. (quickly starts looking for the meta bomb rules)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Damnit. Melta Bombs are grenade 1 as well... Well damnit.

 Tsol wrote:

Core rules state you cannot shoot in melee unless given explicit permission. Grenade type does not grant this permission.

The grenade rule does give you permission. It says if your unit is shooting, you may use a grenade. There is your permission. What your side of the argument is so hung up on is every other shooting rule, when those rules have no effect on what the Grenade rule says. It is actually quite simple. Is your unit shooting? Then you have permission to use a grenade.

 puma713 wrote:

 Tsol wrote:

Core rules state you cannot shoot in melee unless given explicit permission. Grenade type does not grant this permission.

The grenade rule does give you permission. It says if your unit is shooting, you may use a grenade. There is your permission. What your side of the argument is so hung up on is every other shooting rule, when those rules have no effect on what the Grenade rule says. It is actually quite simple. Is your unit shooting? Then you have permission to use a grenade.

I would love for this to be true, but I need to know where in the grenade section it says you should treat grenade weapons as they have the pistol trait.

 Tsol wrote:


I would love for this to be true, but I need to know where in the grenade section it says you should treat grenade weapons as they have the pistol trait.

Again, you're focusing on the wrong rule. Grenades don't care if you're shooting a pistol or a heavy weapon or a titan cannon. All that they care about is that you're shooting.

Are you shooting (no matter what you're shooting)? Then you have qualified the Grenade rule.


Unless you're suggesting that a unit that is shooting pistols is not shooting? It would have been very easy for GW to add (except pistols) to the grenade rule and this would not be an issue. But they did not. They qualified using grenades with one simple question:

Is my unit shooting?

I don't understand. I think I am seeing your argument. It seems that you are saying grenades can always fire, so long as there is an opportunity, regardless of circumstance?

Or are you saying, if a model has a pistol, it may then instead shoot a grenade instead of its pistol. But if it does not have a pistol it then cannot use a grenade, because the pistol is what allows the unit to shoot into melee?

Or are you saying, simply, grenades override the 1" rule despite it not saying explicitly saying so. (this is what I think you are arguing)

The comparison being, pistols explicitly state they ignore the 1" rule. But grenades don't explicitly state, just imply.

Why would they not also state that grenades ignore this rule? Don't get me wrong, GW has screwed up worse than this. But when you have a whole section with weapon types describing exactly what those types do, it seems prudent not to overstretch, and include this which may not be intended. Especially is the very next weapon type grants explicitly the rule exemption you are arguing.

Again, I really, really hope you are right, because I want to use grenades, but I find the argument needing more support.

 Tsol wrote:
I don't understand. I think I am seeing your argument. It seems that you are saying grenades can always fire, so long as there is an opportunity, regardless of circumstance?

Or are you saying, if a model has a pistol, it may then instead shoot a grenade instead of its pistol. But if it does not have a pistol it then cannot use a grenade, because the pistol is what allows the unit to shoot into melee?

Or are you saying, simply, grenades override the 1" rule despite it not saying explicitly saying so. (this is what I think you are arguing)

The comparison being, pistols explicitly state they ignore the 1" rule. But grenades don't explicitly state, just imply.

Why would they not also state that grenades ignore this rule? Don't get me wrong, GW has screwed up worse than this. But when you have a whole section with weapon types describing exactly what those types do, it seems prudent not to overstretch, and include this which may not be intended. Especially is the very next weapon type grants explicitly the rule exemption you are arguing.

Again, I really, really hope you are right, because I want to use grenades, but I find the argument needing more support.

Everyone in the thread is making this issue much more complicated than it has to be. Simply read the first line of the grenade rule, "Each time a unit shoots..."

If, at any time, under any circumstances, you find your unit is shooting, it may use a grenade. The fact that the unit is shooting pistols does not matter. It could be shooting lascannons. It could be shooting dakkaguns. It could be shooting Avenger catapults. It could be shooting a Vulcan Mega Bolter. The grenade rule has no qualifier for weapon type. It simply asks the question, "Is my unit shooting?" If the answer to that question is yes, then the Grenade rule gives you permission for a model to use a grenade.


Edit: Again, as I said before, I don't believe that this is the intended way to play for Grenades. If FAQ'ed, I think they WILL NOT rule the way I am arguing. I am simply pointing out that, RAW, you may use grenades in CC.

The reason I assume they used the wording "Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades
may throw one instead of firing any other weapon." Is for uisng grenades for overwatch or any other undisclosed weapon or shooting event that may occur: think of psykers giving an extra shoothing phase and whatnot or some other special or weird circumstance. I don't think it is to literally mean ignore all shooting rules prior to this statement.

My biggest apprehension to your argument is you're stretching. And not just a small amount. Weapon types explicitly state what that weapon does and I think it may be poor judgement to grant extra abilities not listed in it weapon type because of heavy fundamental literal interpretation, or lack there of.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 puma713 wrote:

 Tsol wrote:
I don't understand. I think I am seeing your argument. It seems that you are saying grenades can always fire, so long as there is an opportunity, regardless of circumstance?

Or are you saying, if a model has a pistol, it may then instead shoot a grenade instead of its pistol. But if it does not have a pistol it then cannot use a grenade, because the pistol is what allows the unit to shoot into melee?

Or are you saying, simply, grenades override the 1" rule despite it not saying explicitly saying so. (this is what I think you are arguing)

The comparison being, pistols explicitly state they ignore the 1" rule. But grenades don't explicitly state, just imply.

Why would they not also state that grenades ignore this rule? Don't get me wrong, GW has screwed up worse than this. But when you have a whole section with weapon types describing exactly what those types do, it seems prudent not to overstretch, and include this which may not be intended. Especially is the very next weapon type grants explicitly the rule exemption you are arguing.

Again, I really, really hope you are right, because I want to use grenades, but I find the argument needing more support.

Everyone in the thread is making this issue much more complicated than it has to be. Simply read the first line of the grenade rule, "Each time a unit shoots..."

If, at any time, under any circumstances, you find your unit is shooting, it may use a grenade. The fact that the unit is shooting pistols does not matter. It could be shooting lascannons. It could be shooting dakkaguns. It could be shooting Avenger catapults. It could be shooting a Vulcan Mega Bolter. The grenade rule has no qualifier for weapon type. It simply asks the question, "Is my unit shooting?" If the answer to that question is yes, then the Grenade rule gives you permission for a model to use a grenade.

I fear you have cornered yourself here. You may need to reiterate. Reading what you've said here, you are actually implying, if models don't have pistols equipped, then they cannot shoot their grenades. Because the only way they could shoot if in melee is if they had a weapon which negated the 1" rule. With your current interpretation, only models with a pistol can use grenades in melee. Would you care to re-explain or reword?

 Tsol wrote:
The reason I assume they used the wording "Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades
may throw one instead of firing any other weapon." Is for uisng grenades for overwatch or any other undisclosed weapon or shooting event that may occur: think of psykers giving an extra shoothing phase and whatnot or some other special or weird circumstance. I don't think it is to literally mean ignore all shooting rules prior to this statement.

My biggest apprehension to your argument is you're stretching. And not just a small amount. Weapon types explicitly state what that weapon does and I think it may be poor judgement to grant extra abilities not listed in it weapon type because of heavy fundamental literal interpretation, or lack there of.

I'm not suggesting that grenades "ignore all shooting rules" or that they are "granted extra abilities". What they DO is they replace a weapon that is currently being shot. One side of the argument is saying that they may not replace pistols. The other side of the argument says that they can. I am simply saying that the Grenade rule does not qualify what type of weapon you're using, only that you're shooting, which it says clearly in the first line.

I don't think that's a stretch, of any amount.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tsol wrote:


I fear you have cornered yourself here. You may need to reiterate. Reading what you've said here, you are actually implying, if models don't have pistols equipped, then they cannot shoot their grenades. Because the only way they could shoot if in melee is if they had a weapon which negated the 1" rule. With your current interpretation, only models with a pistol can use grenades in melee. Would you care to re-explain or reword?

That is absolutely correct. If you don't have pistols (which allow you to shoot in CC), then your unit is not "shooting" to activate the grenade rule. The pistols activate the unit "shooting" while within 1" of a unit. That, then, activates the Grenade rule. "Is my unit shooting?", therefore allowing one model in the unit to replace his pistol with a grenade. If you 'don't have pistols, then you're not shooting in CC to begin with and there is no way for you to activate the Grenade rule.

I have also sent GW an email about the issue. Because I truly hope I am wrong. I want to use grenades in melee and melta bombs, but I think your rules interpretation is wrong.

And I hope they say you're right.

 Tsol wrote:
I have also sent GW an email about the issue. Because I truly hope I am wrong. I want to use grenades in melee and melta bombs, but I think your rules interpretation is wrong.

And I hope they say you're right.

I don't think they will. I think they'll say that you cannot use them. I am simply saying that the RAW as is, allows you to.


And, for what it's worth, emails, Facebook posts (or anything else outside of an offical FAQ) won't hold up here or in a tournament.

Thanks to the way the shooting sequence has been written, the entire situation is already broken from a Rule as Written sense.

While I love watching the poorly formatted sequence being bent even further, splinters flying everywhere under the stress, it clearly is not an intended consequence. I doubt the authors intended for us to exploit half of the Pistol rules in order to piggy-back a grenade toss into the mix. It would have been far easier for them to simply write into the Grenade rule itself that they can be used when the Model is within 1 inch of the Enemy and how to go about doing so. Should one want to take the argument back to 'but the Rule allows this as written' I once more yield the floor to a certain cat that loves pointing out how Assault and Pistols can not work as written.

According to that one cat we wouldnt be able to play the game, the rules are broken.

Anyway, i think, the way the rules are written (RAI not RAW), you could use a grenade. I am using logic and sense here.

"Models cannot target enemy units that are within 1" of friendly models – the risk of hitting your own troops is too great." I believe this refers to friendly units outside of CC, they are probably far away. Shooting from a distance at targets close to your own troops is risky, i agree.

"A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but it must target the closest enemy unit. In such circumstances, the model can shoot its Pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit."

What is the difference ? The enemy unit in CC is much closer, the closer you are the lower the chance of hitting your own troops. Why not throw a grenade in such circumstances ?

Lets not forget THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE.

The Most Important Rule In a game as detailed and wide-ranging as Warhammer 40,000, there may be times when you are not sure exactly how to resolve a situation that has come up during play. When this happens, have a quick chat with your opponent and apply the solution that makes the most sense to both of you (or seems the most fun!).

Have you seen starship troopers ? Why not throw that grenade at that big nasty tyranid bug, he swallows it, and explodes. Why not stick that grenade somehwere on his exoskeleton and take cover when he blows up, covering you in green slime.

Just use common sense, you don't throw grenades in the middle of a brawl lest you get dismembered.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Is a pistol another weapon? We are talking in circles again. I really can't believe this hasn't come up before here but my Google fu isn't taking me anywhere useful. Anybody else want to jump into the debate?

Yes a pistol is another weapon, but the pistol rule states you can fire a pistol when within 1" of an enemy unit. So when you choose to throw a grenade instead, the rule stops working, because you aren't shooting with a pistol anymore. So no you can't throw a grenade in combat.

P5freak,
The 'can not target a Unit within 1 inch of a friendly' is for all Models, not just those outside of Close Combat, because nothing within the Rule restricts it to only Units outside of Close Combat. It is also the very reason Pistols have a Rule specifically informing us they can fire at Enemy Units within 1 inch. Without such a Rule the Pistol wielding Model would be restricted to shooting at Units further away, even though Pistols clearly are meant to be a shooting attack that can be used within Close Combat.

I would also be very careful about bringing 'real world' reasoning into it, I would highly recommend taking a quick look on the Kill and Wound radius of modern grenades. I lack military training, I will admit, but even I can see the problem with using a weapon that has a 5 meter 'everything around this point is 100% dead' against a foe trying to stab me with a knife. Even the examples you give with bombs strapped to big bugs sound more like a special rule should be put on these weapons so they could be used against Vehicles and Monsterous Creatures. Cause even a anti-tank type explosive is going to have a Kill radius that would make me not want to hit someone over the head with one in Close Combat.

As for the the mention of The Most Important Rule, I will assume that is for the very new people who have never read a Game Workshop Rulebook in the first place. Everyone should already know that players can, and to my advice should, change the rules to make things work a little more fluently. Hell, in the last few editions whole sections of Rules have been replaced with nothing more then a placard stating 'Talk to your Opponents.' My own specialty, Terrain, was the most heavily hit with this new mentality of having the Players write Rules themselves.

PS:
That cat is still correct when it comes to the strict writing of the Rules being broken, all long term players of this game simply nodded their head and said 'you expected any different?'
This is Game Workshop we are talking about, it is a hot mess being written on the fly by a collection of people lacking the ability to talk to each other... and that is being very kind.

JinxDragon wrote:
P5freak,
The 'can not target a Unit within 1 inch of a friendly' is for all Models, not just those outside of Close Combat, because nothing within the Rule restricts it to only Units outside of Close Combat. It is also the very reason Pistols have a Rule specifically informing us they can fire at Enemy Units within 1 inch. Without such a Rule the Pistol wielding Model would be restricted to shooting at Units further away, even though Pistols clearly are meant to be a shooting attack that can be used within Close Combat.

Cant you look beyond the written words, and think about the way they are intended ?

JinxDragon wrote:

I would also be very careful about bringing 'real world' reasoning into it, I would highly recommend taking a quick look on the Kill and Wound radius of modern grenades. I lack military training, I will admit, but even I can see the problem with using a weapon that has a 5 meter 'everything around this point is 100% dead' against a foe trying to stab me with a knife. Even the examples you give with bombs strapped to big bugs sound more like a special rule should be put on these weapons so they could be used against Vehicles and Monsterous Creatures. Cause even a anti-tank type explosive is going to have a Kill radius that would make me not want to hit someone over the head with one in Close Combat.

Didnt you see movies where two guys wrestled each other on the ground, and one pulled the pin of a grenade, stuck it onto the other guy, took cover, grenade exploded, and the other guy died ? Why is it so hard to imagine situations where a grenade in melee would work ?

JinxDragon wrote:

As for the the mention of The Most Important Rule, I will assume that is for the very new people who have never read a Game Workshop Rulebook in the first place. Everyone should already know that players can, and to my advice should, change the rules to make things work a little more fluently. Hell, in the last few editions whole sections of Rules have been replaced with nothing more then a placard stating 'Talk to your Opponents.' My own specialty, Terrain, was the most heavily hit with this new mentality of having the Players write Rules themselves.

THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE is for everyone, not just beginners. Its a game, and its supposed to be fun. Look beyond the written words of the rules, which are pretty much screwed up anyway, as we all know. Come up with a creative way to use that grenade in CC, and do it. And as an opponent, dont be a spoil sport, allow it.

For those advocating the use of grenades in CC, what would you say to this situation:
My model is within 6" of an enemy unit and my model has a flamer. I now choose to throw a grenade instead of firing the flamer. Does my grenade hit automatically?

If you concur that it does not, then the reasoning underpinning the use of the grenade in CC falls apart, too, does it not?

GW responded: they will consider adding my question to the FAQ. No official reponse. As for the comments saying GW reponse dont mean anything, I find amusing. Because I want to know the answer but apparently others just want to be right.

Snugiraffe wrote:
For those advocating the use of grenades in CC, what would you say to this situation:
My model is within 6" of an enemy unit and my model has a flamer. I now choose to throw a grenade instead of firing the flamer. Does my grenade hit automatically?

No.

Snugiraffe wrote:

If you concur that it does not, then the reasoning underpinning the use of the grenade in CC falls apart, too, does it not?

No. The rule for a grenade says you can throw it instead of shooting any other weapon.

Snugiraffe wrote:
For those advocating the use of grenades in CC, what would you say to this situation:
My model is within 6" of an enemy unit and my model has a flamer. I now choose to throw a grenade instead of firing the flamer. Does my grenade hit automatically?

If you concur that it does not, then the reasoning underpinning the use of the grenade in CC falls apart, too, does it not?

Tl;dr - the argument for throwing grenades works if and only if your unit consists of two or more models and at least one model can and does fire its pistol. I think this is what people are hung up on.

Unit consists of Jim and Bob

Jim uses Pistol. He may only shoot at the enemy within 1" if him and Bob.

Unit is now shooting

Bob becomes eligible to throw grenade

Per shooting rules Bob cannot throw grenade at enemy within 1" of allies.

Bob may throw the grenade at an enemy unit farther than 1" away from allies.

In your example there is only Jim and it doesn't apply.

As far as I read, RAW is you can throw a grenade very rarely: when your unit is within 1" of an enemy unit and at least one of your models fires a pistol such that one model may throw a grenade at a unit within the grenades short range but not within 1". As in, so rarely and situationally that I don't know why we are yelling

You cannot use grenades in lieu of firing pistols when within 1" of enemy models. You cannot 'chain' off the pistol rule to throw a grenade, because the pistol rule doesn't give you permission to 'make a shooting attack', it only gives you permission to fire your pistols.

The grenade rule doesnt say anything that any other model must shoot with a pistol to enable the use of a grenade. All it says that you can throw a grenade instead of shooting with any other weapon. A lone character with a pistol could throw a grenade, instead of shooting the pistol.

 puma713 wrote:

 Tsol wrote:


I would love for this to be true, but I need to know where in the grenade section it says you should treat grenade weapons as they have the pistol trait.

Again, you're focusing on the wrong rule. Grenades don't care if you're shooting a pistol or a heavy weapon or a titan cannon. All that they care about is that you're shooting.

Are you shooting (no matter what you're shooting)? Then you have qualified the Grenade rule.

"Q: If a Noise Marine is slain whilst its unit is within 1" of an
enemy unit, can he use his Music of the Apocalypse ability to
shoot the unit that is within 1"?
A: Yes, but only with a Pistol."


From this, clearly you haven't qualified the Grenade rule at all, otherwise they would have said that Noise Marines could only shoot the unit within 1" with a pistol or throw a grenade at it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

p5freak wrote:
The grenade rule doesnt say anything that any other model must shoot with a pistol to enable the use of a grenade. All it says that you can throw a grenade instead of shooting with any other weapon. A lone character with a pistol could throw a grenade, instead of shooting the pistol.

If all it says is that you can throw a grenade instead of shooting any other weapon, then it doesn't say that normal restrictions for using the grenade no longer apply.

Given that there are two possible interpretations here, you have to look for the supplemental evidence to indicate which one is right. The FAQ answer for the Noise Marine indicates that the interpretation that you can't throw a grenade instead of firing a pistol when your unit's within 1" of an enemy unit is correct, and that getting to throw the grenade is not the correct interpretation.

 drone9 wrote:
Grenade reads:

Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one instead of firing any other weapon.

So the ambiguity here is whether or not this replace the normal restrictions on shooting or just add to them. It's not only about throwing grenades in close combat I guess: if you advanced that turn you can't shot, except assault weapons. Can you replace one of the assault weapon shot with a grenade shot?

lol.. this reminds me of a game I played back in 2nd edition.

My last marine was surrounding by enemies, so I put the frag grenade blast maker over myself and went out with a bang

but seriously, surely the shooting is done in the shooting phase, once you get into CC you are in the fight phase, so there is no shooting, only fights with melee weapons and pistols. Pistols are allowed as these ranged weapons have been given special rules.

Am I the only player who uses WS rather than BS for pistols in CC? I always have it in my mind of someone wielding the pistol into a position where pulling the trigger counts rather than "taking aim".

Basically, what I am saying is that your not shooting anything, so grenades are out.

According to the interpretation that allows this:

Grenades can be used against units within 1". IF the unit also has a pistol and shoots with it.

And the big one that everyone seems to be missing:

Grenades can be used after advancing. IF the unit also has an assault weapon and shoots with it.

Units can not use grenades in this way if they lack pistols/assault weapons. Let me be clear: they supposedly gain these traits from nearby weapons. Likewise, single-model units (ie: characters) can throw grenades in neither of these cases, because then they would not be shooting a pistol or assault weapon. Does any of the above seem entirely ridiculous to you? Good, it should. I really hope no one is thinking this is RAI.

So, is the wording of the rulebook broken? Let's take a look. In section 3.2. of the shooting rules, it is very clearly stated that 'Models cannot target enemy units that are within 1" of friendly models.' This is here, at the start of the shooting rules, so that you understand that this is the basic beahviour of shooting attacks. This is a universal rule that applies to all weapon types until explicitly overriden. There are other universal rules, I summarise them below in the order they appear in the rules:

Shooting unit must not have advanced. [Overriden by assault type]
Shooting unit must not have fallen back. [Overriden by some abilities]
Shooter must not be within 1" of an enemy unit. [Overriden by pistol type]
Target must be in range.
Target must be visible. [Overriden by specific weapons]
Target must not be within 1" of a friendly model. [Overriden by pistol type]

These rules are not reprinted or explicitly referenced in the description of each weapon type because GW assumed the reader is reasonable enough to understand that a rule requires an explicit exemption in order to be ignored. By proving them disastrously wrong you accomplish nothing but minor embarrassment for us all.

Could this have been written more clearly and with less room for people to pick holes? Yes. But GW wanted to write an 8-page ruleset, not an ISO standard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gkos wrote:

Am I the only player who uses WS rather than BS for pistols in CC? I always have it in my mind of someone wielding the pistol into a position where pulling the trigger counts rather than "taking aim".

Basically, what I am saying is that your not shooting anything, so grenades are out.

I think you might be.

Pistols can not be used in the fight phase, they can only be used in your shooting phase. You use BS not WS because it's a shooing attack not a close combat attack.

The pistol rule states it can be fired if an enemy model is within 1". You choose the pistol and then say your using the Grenade rule to shoot instead of the pistol. That's fine. Show me where it states in the grenades rules that it can be used if within 1". It doesn't. Grenades do not get the special rules of the weapon they are replacing. You don't have rapid fire grenades or heavy weapon grenades or assault grenades, so why would you get pistol grenades? It's a simple thing that honesty shouldn't have gone this far. I am sorry if you want to throw a Grenade in close combat it's not doable. Otherwise I get to throw 2 Grenades at 12" due to rapid fire and I get to toss grenades after advancing due to assault.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 drone9 wrote:
Grenade reads:

Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one instead of firing any other weapon.

So the ambiguity here is whether or not this replace the normal restrictions on shooting or just add to them. It's not only about throwing grenades in close combat I guess: if you advanced that turn you can't shot, except assault weapons. Can you replace one of the assault weapon shot with a grenade shot?

Read the grenade rule. Can you shoot the assault weapon after advancing ? Yes, you can. Is the assault weapon any other weapon ? Yes, it is. Yes, you can throw a grenade if you advanced.

gkos wrote:
but seriously, surely the shooting is done in the shooting phase, once you get into CC you are in the fight phase, so there is no shooting, only fights with melee weapons and pistols. Pistols are allowed as these ranged weapons have been given special rules.

The shooting with pistols in CC happens in the shooting phase. The pistol is a ranged weapon in 8th. It does not give +1 to attack like it did in 7th.

gkos wrote:
Am I the only player who uses WS rather than BS for pistols in CC? I always have it in my mind of someone wielding the pistol into a position where pulling the trigger counts rather than "taking aim".

Then you are doing it wrong. Shooting pistols is BS.

p5freak wrote:
Read the grenade rule. Can you shoot the assault weapon after advancing ? Yes, you can. Is the assault weapon any other weapon ? Yes, it is. Yes, you can throw a grenade if you advanced.

Read the Grenade rule, where does it state it can use the rules of other Weapon Types? All it says is, "instead of". It does not allow you to suddenly switch Weapon Types mid-step and use another Weapon's rules in order to use a Grenade.

If you have a unit of Tacticals in the Shooting Phase with at least one model within 1" of an enemy unit, your choice of Shooting Weapons are Boltgun, Pistol, Grenade. When you go to use the Boltgun, you can't because your unit is engaged. The same thing applies to when you use the Grenade, as the Grenade rules do not allow you to use another Weapon's rules or Type. The only option is the Pistol. As soon as you choose to have the model fire its Grenade, it is blocked by the standard Shooting rules that it does not override.

P5freek,
I can easily read between the lines, but let me ask you a question:
If you are creating a Game System, would you create one that requires people to make assumptions by reading between the lines or would you simply tell them exactly what you intended outright?

While I would be the first to point out that Game Workshop are terrible at writing rules, leading to all sorts of broken situations they clearly did not intend, even I would not say they are so bad they lack basic understanding of communications. They are not cryptic riddle masters here, designing a system filled with 'got-ya' moments for clever people who can decipher the clues and follow the bread crumbs to a very twisted conclusion. They are attempting to write a Rule based system that is straight forward, and with 8th edition they have re-written everything to try and make the game more simple then it has been in the past. So... no... I can logically and rationally conclude that we do not need to guess secret meanings in this Rulebook on the grounds the Authors wanted the system to be better, not worse, then the old editions.

After all, take a look at the whole page instead of taking snippets of information to try and twist and exploit. The authors re-write this entire section, weapon types are handled differently in 8th then they where in 7th, and two weapons that clearly where focused on during this re-write was the concept of Pistols and the concept of Grenades. While grenades where not modified all that much, they function almost the same, pistols received an extensive change when they went from '+1 attack' to what they are now. Reading between those lines screams, very loudly, that they do NOT intend for you to throw a Grenade in Close Combat because they never outright told us that during the re-write.

That choice not to add 'can be used in Close Combat' rules to the Grenade type is enough evidence they never intended for you to use then in Close Combat.


As for Movies:
Movies allow us to suspend reality and replace it with our own conceptions of what should happen, so using 'it happens on movies' when someone is pointing out real world physics seems to flawed to me.

Personally, I can imagine many situations where the explosive radius of a frag grenade would be less of a concern then killing the dozen people surrounding me but that doesn't simply magically allow me to ignore the fact we are operating in a permission based system, which is the default for Games. Given the complex nature of identifying if we are in one of those 'to hell heart I stab at thee' moments, I have concluded that the Authors where unable to write a Rule based system that would correctly allow us to use Grenades in those few rare situations. They only had a choice between 'can always be used in Close Combat' and 'Can never be used in Close Combat' and we clearly can see which side of that decision they are on due to the lack of instructions telling us otherwise.

The Most Important Rule:
I do not give you consent to use this Rule

Those above words was the core of my argument against The Most Important Rule being discussed here, and every single long term poster already knows of this problem: In order for you to evoke The Most Important Rule as a solution to the problem, you have to have the consent of the people involved. This is great if you are discussing something with a single person, who will be willing to grant said consent, but this is a Forum filled with 'opponents' that are more then willing to refuse to grant consent. As you need permision of your opponent for your argument to be correct, the simple act of refusing consent causes every 'The Most Important Rule' argument to fail....

If you want to discuss possible changes to the Rule, which is all The Most Important Rule allows, then I recommend using the 'Proposed Rule' section of the Forum.

Mchaagen wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
In any case, Noise Marines can all throw their grenades as they die while in CC. GW confirmed it and their rule allows them to shoot within 1". Maybe you can dissect the wording of that rule to see what makes it different.

"Q: If a Noise Marine is slain whilst its unit is within 1" of an
enemy unit, can he use his Music of the Apocalypse ability to
shoot the unit that is within 1"?
A: Yes, but only with a Pistol."

This is from the Chaos Index FAQ. How are you interpreting it in the exact opposite way? Or reference where 'GW confirmed it.'

Why are you going to FAQ without first checking the original rule??? The FAQ answers what the Noise Marine can shoot -at- if it's within 1" of an enemy. That has nothing to do with what I said. The original rule confirms that Noise Marines can shoot or throw grenades while within 1" of an enemy. The only thing the FAQ suggests is that they can't target the unit that is within 1" of them but can still throw grenades or shoot enemies they are not locked in combat with. The question/answer is also not an Errata and does not change the wording of this rule so it remains the same.

Music of the Apocalypse Rule:
"Each time a model in this unit is slain, it is driven to make one last attack before succumbing to its injuries. Do not remove the slain model yet - after the attacking has finished making all its attacks, the slain model can make a shooting attack with one of its ranged weapons, or throw a grenade, even if the model's unit is within 1" of the enemy. The slain model is then removed as a casualty as normal."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:

I'd say this shows that GW doesn't want any shenanigans with grenades when a model's unit is within 1" of an enemy unit.

What it shows is that the wording of a rule is what's important to understanding its function. Break it down piece by piece and you realize that you CAN shoot things while within 1" of an enemy unit. You simply cannot shoot the unit you're within 1" of unless you're using a pistol. I told you guys to break down the rule wording to see how it differs from the other rules.

 Arkaine wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
I'd say this shows that GW doesn't want any shenanigans with grenades when a model's unit is within 1" of an enemy unit.

What it shows is that the wording of a rule is what's important to understanding its function. Break it down piece by piece and you realize that you CAN shoot things while within 1" of an enemy unit. You simply cannot shoot the unit you're within 1" of unless you're using a pistol. I told you guys to break down the rule wording to see how it differs from the other rules.

Or more like, if you break a rule up in to pieces and ignore the whole, you can create shenanigans.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
I'd say this shows that GW doesn't want any shenanigans with grenades when a model's unit is within 1" of an enemy unit.

What it shows is that the wording of a rule is what's important to understanding its function. Break it down piece by piece and you realize that you CAN shoot things while within 1" of an enemy unit. You simply cannot shoot the unit you're within 1" of unless you're using a pistol. I told you guys to break down the rule wording to see how it differs from the other rules.

Or more like, if you break a rule up in to pieces and ignore the whole, you can create shenanigans.

Which thankfully isn't what's being done here. Breaking down the rule is another way of saying something like parse the verb or comprehend the meaning of the sentence.

GW's own words concerning this ability are:

"Q: Can a Noise Marine that is slain use his Music of the
Apocalypse ability to shoot any viable target, or does it have to
target the unit that killed him?
A: It can shoot at any viable target."

Keywords: VIABLE TARGET! A rule that grants you permission to shoot while within 1" of an enemy does not grant you permission to shoot -at- an enemy within 1". Models cannot target those except with a pistol.

 Arkaine wrote:
Which thankfully isn't what's being done here. Breaking down the rule is another way of saying something like parse the verb or comprehend the meaning of the sentence.

GW's own words concerning this ability are:

"Q: Can a Noise Marine that is slain use his Music of the
Apocalypse ability to shoot any viable target, or does it have to
target the unit that killed him?
A: It can shoot at any viable target."

Keywords: VIABLE TARGET! A rule that grants you permission to shoot while within 1" of an enemy does not grant you permission to shoot -at- an enemy within 1". Models cannot target those except with a pistol.

Actually the rule for Grenades is being broken up here in this thread. Saying that you can use a Grenade in the place of another Shooting Weapon in a situation where only that Shooting Weapon is allowed to fire is doing exactly that. It is completely ignoring all other rules in favor of what a person is wanting to do with it.

You can't use granades in CC.

You can use them instead, when you shooting. Sure, but they still need to be able to do so in general rules.

If we go that way, that if something is able to shoot you can throw granade instead, then i can use them at range 48' if i have weapon able to shoot at that range. And that is not true, cuz granade still need be able to shoot following general rules and they have there own range that need to match distance.

They can be used instead of shooting AND they still need to follow general rules (they are not able to be used only cuz you are can shoot with something else) and they cant be thrown at 1' cuz they are not a pistol weapon.

TL;DR: To use granades you need to obey all general rules about shooting AND rule of granade (shooting with other weapon). Not only rule of granade, like some people trying to do. Its additional rule, not rule that replace rest rules.

Reggi wrote:
You can't use granades in CC.

You can use them instead, when you shooting. Sure, but they still need to be able to do so in general rules.

If we go that way, that if something is able to shoot you can throw granade instead, then i can use them at range 48' if i have weapon able to shoot at that range. And that is not true, cuz granade still need be able to shoot following general rules and they have there own range that need to match distance.

They can be used instead of shooting AND they still need to follow general rules (they are not able to be used only cuz you are can shoot with something else) and they cant be thrown at 1' cuz they are not a pistol weapon.

TL;DR: To use granades you need to obey all general rules about shooting AND rule of granade. Not only rule of granade, like some people trying to do. Its additional rule, not rule that replace rest rules.

^What this man said. Following the logic of the people in this thread I might as well use my grenades as rapid-fire weapons, because we can right ?

Common sense has left this thread a long time ago, I can't believe it's 4 pages long.

According to the logic in this thread, grenades auto-hit if you have a flamer, and characters don't have to be in range in order to shoot them.

I think it's safe to say that this logical process is flawed and incorrect.

All of you people are conflating so many issues and over complicating this. Grenades don't get the abilities of other weapons or any of this other nonsense.

Again, the grenade rule is only qualified by a single rule: is my unit shooting? It doesn't matter if they're using pistols or flamers or what have you. All that matters is that my unit is shooting. If that is true, then a grenade may be used.

You all are getting too wrapped up in the minutiae of which weapon is used, when that detail has no bearing on the Grenade rule whatsoever.

 puma713 wrote:
All of you people are conflating so many issues and over complicating this. Grenades don't get the abilities of other weapons or any of this other nonsense.

Again, the grenade rule is only qualified by a single rule: is my unit shooting? It doesn't matter if they're using pistols or flamers or what have you. All that matters is that my unit is shooting. If that is true, then a grenade may be used.

You all are getting too wrapped up in the minutiae of which weapon is used, when that detail has no bearing on the Grenade rule whatsoever.

By that logic, shooting at characters is only qualified by a single rule: is it the closest visible enemy unit? It doesn't matter if it's in range or what have you. All that matters is that it's the closest visible enemy unit. If that is true, I can shoot it.

Reggi wrote:


If we go that way, that if something is able to shoot you can throw granade instead, then i can use them at range 48' if i have weapon able to shoot at that range. And that is not true, cuz granade still need be able to shoot following general rules and they have there own range that need to match distance.

So, if you have a devastator squad with 4 lascannons and a sergeant with a bolter, the unit can't fire because the bolter isn't 48" range? No, that is incorrect. You can't throw a grenade from 48" because it doesn't have that much range. Again, everyone is overcomplicating this by thinking too much about what is firing, when it doesn't matter what is firing, only that it is firing.

 puma713 wrote:

Reggi wrote:


If we go that way, that if something is able to shoot you can throw granade instead, then i can use them at range 48' if i have weapon able to shoot at that range. And that is not true, cuz granade still need be able to shoot following general rules and they have there own range that need to match distance.

So, if you have a devastator squad with 4 lascannons and a sergeant with a bolter, the unit can't fire because the bolter isn't 48" range? No, that is incorrect. You can't throw a grenade from 48" because it doesn't have that much range. Again, everyone is overcomplicating this by thinking too much about what is firing, when it doesn't matter what is firing, only that it is firing.

But like I said, By that logic, shooting at characters is only qualified by a single rule: is it the closest visible enemy unit? It doesn't matter if it's in range or what have you. All that matters is that it's the closest visible enemy unit. If that is true, I can shoot it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
All of you people are conflating so many issues and over complicating this. Grenades don't get the abilities of other weapons or any of this other nonsense.

Again, the grenade rule is only qualified by a single rule: is my unit shooting? It doesn't matter if they're using pistols or flamers or what have you. All that matters is that my unit is shooting. If that is true, then a grenade may be used.

You all are getting too wrapped up in the minutiae of which weapon is used, when that detail has no bearing on the Grenade rule whatsoever.

By that logic, shooting at characters is only qualified by a single rule: is it the closest visible enemy unit? It doesn't matter if it's in range or what have you. All that matters is that it's the closest visible enemy unit. If that is true, I can shoot it.

Except that's not what the rule says. The rule says that if they're the closest visible enemy unit, they can be chosen as a target for a shooting attack. Then, the rules for shooting attacks would then follow.

The Grenade rule only says "Each time a unit is shooting..."

That is the only qualifier for grenades.

 puma713 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
All of you people are conflating so many issues and over complicating this. Grenades don't get the abilities of other weapons or any of this other nonsense.

Again, the grenade rule is only qualified by a single rule: is my unit shooting? It doesn't matter if they're using pistols or flamers or what have you. All that matters is that my unit is shooting. If that is true, then a grenade may be used.

You all are getting too wrapped up in the minutiae of which weapon is used, when that detail has no bearing on the Grenade rule whatsoever.

By that logic, shooting at characters is only qualified by a single rule: is it the closest visible enemy unit? It doesn't matter if it's in range or what have you. All that matters is that it's the closest visible enemy unit. If that is true, I can shoot it.

Except that's not what the rule says. The rule says that if they're the closest visible enemy unit, they can be chosen as a target for a shooting attack. Then, the rules for shooting attacks would then follow.

The Grenade rule only says "Each time a unit is shooting..."

That is the only qualifier for grenades.

That isn't what the character rule says at all. Please re-read it.

p180 in the BRB, first paragraph

There are five types of ranged weapon: Assault, Heavy, Rapid Fire, Grenade and Pistol

p180 in the BRB, PISTOL section, 3rd para

Each time a model equipped with both a Pistol and another type of ranged weapon (e.g. a Pistol and a Rapid Fire weapon) shoots, it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with all of its other weapons.

From the first quote, Grenade is a weapon type.

The second quote says you cannot use another weapon type and a Pistol in the same shooting action.

Therefore you cannot swap your Pistol for a Grenade.

 puma713 wrote:
Except that's not what the rule says. The rule says that if they're the closest visible enemy unit, they can be chosen as a target for a shooting attack. Then, the rules for shooting attacks would then follow.

The Grenade rule only says "Each time a unit is shooting..."

That is the only qualifier for grenades.

That is not the only qualifier for Grenades. Grenades still need to follow all other basic rules for Shooting. You still need to be in Range. You still need to have line of sight. Among those qualifiers that applies to all Ranged Weapons is not being within 1" of an enemy unit. Pistols have a rule to get out of this qualifier and Grenades do not.

One rule that talks about general availability does nothing to address this restriction on being engaged.

BaconCatBug wrote:That isn't what the character rule says at all. Please re-read it.

What's your point? Again, you're trying to assert arguments that have no bearing on the Grenade rule. But, to humor you, the rule says, verbatim: "A character can only be chosen as a target in the Shooting phase if they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting." So what? So, let's take it out of context, what are we left with? A character can only be targeted if it is the closest visible enemy unit. So, I target it. Then what do I do? What rules do I follow to determine what to do with my "targeted" state? The rest of the shooting rules, obviously, which cover range, weapon types, etc. Without the rest of the shooting rules, the character clause means nothing.

Conversely, the Grenades rule has assumed that you've met all qualifications for shooting - otherwise you wouldn't be able to throw a grenade. That is what the "Each time a unit shoots..." clause is doing - it assumes the unit is in a "shooting" state and says, if that is true, then you may throw a grenade.

So, when a unit is shooting pistols, they're not shooting? Is that what you're saying?

MadSpy wrote:

The second quote says you cannot use another weapon type and a Pistol in the same shooting action.

Therefore you cannot swap your Pistol for a Grenade.

You are not using another weapon type AND a pistol. You're using just a grenade. Remember, the grenade rule only cares that the UNIT is shooting. It does not care what a MODEL is doing. So, if a UNIT is shooting pistols, then one MODEL may exchange a grenade for ANY OTHER WEAPON (including, but not limited to, pistols).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:


One rule that talks about general availability does nothing to address this restriction on being engaged.

This is where we disagree. I believe the grenade rule is written in such a way that gives you permission to throw a grenade, no matter the circumstances, as long as your unit is shooting. "Each time a unit shoots..." gives you explicit permission and assumes that the rules for shooting have already been qualified. If the rules for shooting have not already been qualified (LOS and range), then you have no permission to throw grenades in the first place. LOS and range do not get qualified when the unit shoots, they get qualified before the unit has shot.




However, I am going to bow out of the conversation now, because I am arguing the RAW and not the RAI. As far as the RAI goes, I agree that they are not intended to be used in CC. And arguing RAW without the RAI behind it is pointless.

 puma713 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:


One rule that talks about general availability does nothing to address this restriction on being engaged.

This is where we disagree. I believe the grenade rule is written in such a way that gives you permission to throw a grenade, no matter the circumstances, as long as your unit is shooting. "Each time a unit shoots..." gives you explicit permission and assumes that the rules for shooting have already been qualified. If the rules for shooting have not already been qualified (LOS and range), then you have no permission to throw grenades in the first place. LOS and range do not get qualified when the unit shoots, they get qualified before the unit has shot.

However, I am going to bow out of the conversation now, because I am arguing the RAW and not the RAI. As far as the RAI goes, I agree that they are not intended to be used in CC. And arguing RAW without the RAI behind it is pointless.

You can disagree all you want, but it still does not specifically address this restriction like the Pistol rule does. As has been pointed out, going by this standard would allow a model to ignore Line of Sight or Range. A Weapon Type does not get to use another Weapon Type's rules unless it specifically states it. Without the specific permission, you are NOT operating on RAW as there is nothing Written to override this basic restriction.

MadSpy wrote:
p180 in the BRB, first paragraph

There are five types of ranged weapon: Assault, Heavy, Rapid Fire, Grenade and Pistol

p180 in the BRB, PISTOL section, 3rd para

Each time a model equipped with both a Pistol and another type of ranged weapon (e.g. a Pistol and a Rapid Fire weapon) shoots, it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with all of its other weapons.

From the first quote, Grenade is a weapon type.

The second quote says you cannot use another weapon type and a Pistol in the same shooting action.

Therefore you cannot swap your Pistol for a Grenade.

RAW grenades can only be thrown in this scenario by a unit with 2+ models where one fires a pistol.

You're arguing the situation for one model. And that is largely correct.

RAW also means a unit of 2+ models may throw a grenade after advancing if at least one model fires with an Assault weapon.

The language is fairly specific.

RAW do NOT treat grenades like heavy or rapid fire or flamer weapons and people are throwing that in here as a scoff without actually absorbing the discussion here.

 Overheal wrote:


RAW do NOT treat grenades like heavy or rapid fire or flamer weapons and people are throwing that in here as a scoff without actually absorbing the discussion here.

RAW also do not treat grenades like pistol weapons, ergo they do not function within 1" of an enemy.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Overheal wrote:


RAW do NOT treat grenades like heavy or rapid fire or flamer weapons and people are throwing that in here as a scoff without actually absorbing the discussion here.

RAW also do not treat grenades like pistol weapons, ergo they do not function within 1" of an enemy.

And that's the point the some are missing. When using a Grenade like a Pistol they are mixing Weapon Types and weapon rules without explicit permission.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Overheal wrote:


RAW do NOT treat grenades like heavy or rapid fire or flamer weapons and people are throwing that in here as a scoff without actually absorbing the discussion here.

RAW also do not treat grenades like pistol weapons, ergo they do not function within 1" of an enemy.

Correct per step 2 of shooting they would only be fired at another unit within range of the grenade but not within 1" of friendlies.

The unit being ineligible to be selected for shooting is only in step 1. Pistols have an exception to this step, (assault weapons too for the case of advancing). Pistols activate the unit for shooting and supersede step 1. It activates the unit for shooting and the unit proceeds to step 2.

 Overheal wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Overheal wrote:


RAW do NOT treat grenades like heavy or rapid fire or flamer weapons and people are throwing that in here as a scoff without actually absorbing the discussion here.

RAW also do not treat grenades like pistol weapons, ergo they do not function within 1" of an enemy.

Correct per step 2 of shooting they would only be fired at another unit within range of the grenade but not within 1" of friendlies.

The unit being ineligible to be selected for shooting is only in step 1. Pistols have an exception to this step, (assault weapons too for the case of advancing). Pistols activate the unit for shooting and supersede step 1. It activates the unit for shooting and the unit proceeds to step 2.

But that doesn't make the word "Grenade" into "Pistol." The weapon type "Pistol" is what gives THAT weapon permission to fire into combat. Otherwise yes, if you replace a "Rapid Fire" weapon with a "Grenade" your argument would let me rapid fire that grenade. Or if my devastator throws a Grenade instead of firing a Heavy weapon after moving, it would get a -1 to hit.

I agree with above posters who have said "Okay, you switch to grenade. Now it's a grenade, and you don't get to shoot with that model at all." Because you're trying to use Pistol rules to change restrictions on other weapons, but that's not how it works.

But again it doesn't matter.

Whether it be

A pistol
A flamer
A lascannon
A Bolter
A Nexus Meteor System

If the unit is shooting, the rule says a model in the unit may throw a grenade.

That model would then check its range et all per step 2 of the shooting phase.

In this case the unit has already surpassed step 1 because pistols can be shot. So the unit is shooting. So you go to step 2, where your restrictions for firing the grenade have already been tackled except that which says the risk to your allies is too great to target a unit with 1" of friendlies.

Anywho I can confirm GW has passed the details of the issue to the studio for future clarification.

 Overheal wrote:


A pistol
A flamer
A lascannon
A Bolter
A Nexus Meteor System

One of those is a weapon type, the others are weapon names.

Pistol - weapon type with rules to be able to fire this weapon within 1" of enemies
Flamer - Assault weapon with rules to be able to fire after advancing with a -1 to hit
Lascannon - Heavy weapon with rules that force a -1 to hit if firing after moving
Bolter - Rapid Fire weapon with rules that allow double shots in half range
Nexus Meteor System - presumably Macro weapon that glasses the table

Your logic with the Pistol rules would mean that you could exchange a grenade for any of these weapons and the following would happen:

Pistol - Grenade gets to be fired within 1" of enemies
Flamer - Grenade gets to be fired after advancing with a -1 to hit
Lascannon - Grenade gets to be fired but you have to take a -1 to hit if you moved
Bolter - Grenade gets to be fired twice if you're within half range

But Grenade type doesn't adopt the rules of the other types, it has its own rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
But like I said, By that logic, shooting at characters is only qualified by a single rule: is it the closest visible enemy unit? It doesn't matter if it's in range or what have you. All that matters is that it's the closest visible enemy unit. If that is true, I can shoot it.

This is quite obviously true. Step 1 is "Choose Unit to Shoot With"; Step 2 is "Choose Targets." So yes, if a character is the closest visible enemy unit you may select it as a target.
Then in Step 3 you might be sol because the character is 28" away and your unit only has boltguns.
But there's nothing preventing this course of events from occurring. So you've shot the target. You've just failed to affect any change.

Me tossing a grenade with only 6" range doesn't alter that process.

Jacksmiles wrote:

Your logic with the Pistol rules would mean that you could exchange a grenade for any of these weapons and the following would happen:

Pistol - Grenade gets to be fired within 1" of enemies
Flamer - Grenade gets to be fired after advancing with a -1 to hit
Lascannon - Grenade gets to be fired but you have to take a -1 to hit if you moved
Bolter - Grenade gets to be fired twice if you're within half range

But Grenade type doesn't adopt the rules of the other types, it has its own rules.

No. I don't know how you jumped to that conclusion either, or how others did.

The rules for Assault Weapons say

"A model with an Assault weapon can fire it even if it Advanced earlier that turn. If it does so, you must subtract 1 from any hit rolls made when firing that weapon this turn."

Therefore, the ASSAULT weapon would be -1 to hit.

The unit is still shooting though, and per GRENADE rules the unit is shooting so "a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one instead of firing any other weapon."

The rules for HEAVY weapons state "If a model with a Heavy weapon moved in its preceding Movement phase, you must subtract 1 from any hit rolls made when firing that weapon this turn."

Only the HEAVY weapon would be -1 to hit.

RAPID FIRE states "A model firing a Rapid Fire weapon doubles the number of attacks it makes if its target is within half the weapon’s maximum range."

The model throwing a grenade "may throw one instead of firing any other weapon." It is not firing a rapid fire weapon, so it never doubles the number of attacks [the weapon] makes if its target is within half the weapon's maximum range."

 puma713 wrote:
All of you people are conflating so many issues and over complicating this. Grenades don't get the abilities of other weapons or any of this other nonsense.

Again, the grenade rule is only qualified by a single rule: is my unit shooting? It doesn't matter if they're using pistols or flamers or what have you. All that matters is that my unit is shooting. If that is true, then a grenade may be used.

You all are getting too wrapped up in the minutiae of which weapon is used, when that detail has no bearing on the Grenade rule whatsoever.

Wrong. The grenade rule is qualified by a second rule: is my unit within 1" of an enemy unit?. This is a qualification that always applies to grenades. Having a pistol that lets you shoot within 1" does not mean that that rule transfers to using a grenade instead. If you try to use a grenade, you still have the basic limiation on grenades that it can not be used if your unit is within 1" of an enemy unit; only pistols have something that overrides that. Switch to using a grenade, you no longer have anything that lets you shoot while within 1". This is not "minutiae", it's a fundamental rule.

And the Chaos FAQ backs this up.

"Wrong. The grenade rule is qualified by a second rule: is my unit within 1" of an enemy unit?. This is a qualification that always applies to grenades. "

No.

you

1) Choose the Unit to Shoot with

normally the unit cant shoot, but because it fell back, or it advanced, or it is within 1" of an enemy.

Pistols get by this. So the unit has been chosen to shoot with. You move to steps 2, 3, + +

When you elect a grenade to be thrown, you are not re-choosing the unit to shoot with, you have already chosen the unit to shoot with.

But then when you try to choose the grenade instead, you have a ranged weapon that does not have permission to be used when within 1" of an enemy unit, so when you go to select that weapon you find that it's an invalid choice to be used then.

 doctortom wrote:
But then when you try to choose the grenade instead, you have a ranged weapon that does not have permission to be used when within 1" of an enemy unit, so when you go to select that weapon you find that it's an invalid choice to be used then.

This has been stated about 4 thousand times. Certain people will just ignore this. This thread has zero reason to exist.

 doctortom wrote:
But then when you try to choose the grenade instead, you have a ranged weapon that does not have permission to be used when within 1" of an enemy unit, so when you go to select that weapon you find that it's an invalid choice to be used then.

Where do the rules state that Grenades do not have permission to be used within 1" of an enemy unit?

The rules say

"You may not pick a unit
that Advanced or Fell Back this turn, or
a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit."

The DO NOT say

"You may not pick a unit
that Advanced or Fell Back this turn, or
a WEAPON that is within 1" of an enemy unit."

 Overheal wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

Your logic with the Pistol rules would mean that you could exchange a grenade for any of these weapons and the following would happen:

Pistol - Grenade gets to be fired within 1" of enemies
Flamer - Grenade gets to be fired after advancing with a -1 to hit
Lascannon - Grenade gets to be fired but you have to take a -1 to hit if you moved
Bolter - Grenade gets to be fired twice if you're within half range

But Grenade type doesn't adopt the rules of the other types, it has its own rules.

No. I don't know how you jumped to that conclusion either, or how others did.

The rules for Assault Weapons say

"A model with an Assault weapon can fire it even if it Advanced earlier that turn. If it does so, you must subtract 1 from any hit rolls made when firing that weapon this turn."

Therefore, the ASSAULT weapon would be -1 to hit.

The unit is still shooting though, and per GRENADE rules the unit is shooting so "a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one instead of firing any other weapon."

The rules for HEAVY weapons state "If a model with a Heavy weapon moved in its preceding Movement phase, you must subtract 1 from any hit rolls made when firing that weapon this turn."

Only the HEAVY weapon would be -1 to hit.

RAPID FIRE states "A model firing a Rapid Fire weapon doubles the number of attacks it makes if its target is within half the weapon’s maximum range."

The model throwing a grenade "may throw one instead of firing any other weapon." It is not firing a rapid fire weapon, so it never doubles the number of attacks [the weapon] makes if its target is within half the weapon's maximum range."

I agree with your above statements because they're true - a weapon type does not in fact adopt the traits of another weapon type.

PISTOL states "A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit..."

Emphasis mine. Pistol. Pistol is a weapon type, only weapons with that weapon type can fire within 1". I don't know how you're not seeing a massive double standard here when you say Grenades get to fire within 1".

They are not Pistols. They are Grenades.

Using the exact same reasoning as you used above - they are not Rapid Fire, Heavy, or Assault weapons. They are Grenades.

I get that the argument is that you can fire Grenades in place of any other weapon, but they don't take on the aspects of that weapon, and don't follow that weapon's type rules, so the 1" restriction still applies.

text removed.

Reds8n

Jacksmiles wrote:

I agree with your above statements because they're true - a weapon type does not in fact adopt the traits of another weapon type.

PISTOL states "A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit..."

Emphasis mine. Pistol. Pistol is a weapon type, only weapons with that weapon type can fire within 1". I don't know how you're not seeing a massive double standard here when you say Grenades get to fire within 1"

How is it a double standard?

The model can fire the pistol

The model shoots the pistol.

The model's unit is shooting.

A grenade can be used "each time a unit shoots."

 Overheal wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

I agree with your above statements because they're true - a weapon type does not in fact adopt the traits of another weapon type.

PISTOL states "A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit..."

Emphasis mine. Pistol. Pistol is a weapon type, only weapons with that weapon type can fire within 1". I don't know how you're not seeing a massive double standard here when you say Grenades get to fire within 1"

How is it a double standard?

The model can fire the pistol

The model shoots the pistol.

The model's unit is shooting.

A grenade can be used "each time a unit shoots."

Because by this logic, Characters no longer need to be in range for you to shoot them.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because by this logic, Characters no longer need to be in range for you to shoot them.

No?? Checking Range happens in Step 2 of shooting.

"In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being used (as
listed on its profile) and be visible to the
shooting model."

provided that (also step 2)

"Models cannot target enemy units that
are within 1" of friendly models – the risk
of hitting your own troops is too great."

 Overheal wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

I agree with your above statements because they're true - a weapon type does not in fact adopt the traits of another weapon type.

PISTOL states "A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit..."

Emphasis mine. Pistol. Pistol is a weapon type, only weapons with that weapon type can fire within 1". I don't know how you're not seeing a massive double standard here when you say Grenades get to fire within 1"

How is it a double standard?

The model can fire the pistol

The model shoots the pistol.

The model's unit is shooting.

A grenade can be used "each time a unit shoots."

No, the UNIT cannot shoot if it is within 1" of an enemy unit. The MODEL can Shoot a Pistol if the unit is within 1" of an enemy unit.

The UNIT is not allowed to Shoot, so therefore the model cannot Shoot the Grenade as the UNIT is not shooting.

Do you know the difference between a unit and a model? They are quite different entities in interactions.

Are models not part of the unit they are a part of?

Do units with models shooting not count as units doing shooting?

Charistoph,
I think a better question would be: Does the Authors know the difference between Model and Unit?
But that is a long standing joke when it comes to Game Workshop and an important distinction which they have occasionally ignored themselves....

My answer is to actually Rewrite either the Pistol Rule, or to rewrite Step 1 of the sequence. The Authors could have either written into the Pistol Rule that Units containing Models equipped with pistols may... blah blah blah. They could have also changed step 1, which is what I prefer to do, in order to read "Units within 1 inch of an Enemy Unit may only fire Pistols during the Shooting Phase..." instead of Restricting the Unit from attacking outright. Either way it would still allow Step 1 to effect the Unit, and would also make the whole question about Grenades moot as the Restriction would be a specific and resounding No instead of a 'that is twisted, filled with ill-logic and clearly unintended, No....'

Step 2 and the Targeting Unit Rule also need tweaking to allow the Unit to nominate correctly, but it is more or less the same as above with slightly different wording.

More likely they will errata the Grenades rules in some way, such as "when a model is eligible to shoot" which makes the whooooole problem vanish.

BoLS was just arguing today for buffing grenades in general though. Things like being able to advance and throw or throw in CC (....like this whole thread has suggested)

who knows what GW will ultimately decide for them.

I would like to see a return of the 'can be used in Close Combat against Monstrous Creatures and Vehicle' rule for Krak and Melta Bombs.

It really is a difficult problem for the Authors however, the question of 'how do you make it so Grenades are actually worth using in every game?'
This is because Grenades are found on so many Models, across so many Armies, so any little change made to the default way Grenades work will send ripples throughout the game. If they change the Grenade Rules to make them anything other then 'lacking of luster' they are going to see Grenades go from being something we forget the Unit is even carrying, to being consider the most valuable thing said Units can bring to the table. Additionally, on Units which have a better weapon then 'flash-light' as default, such changes might not even be noticed as Grenades still remain inferior to the Wargear said Unit was chosen for. If they want to improve on grenades, Game Workshop will have to go very slowly and consider the implications of such changes... and we can all now stop laughing.

I would say a better answer would be to give "Grenadier" Units special Rules that allow them more flexibility when using grenades, if they really want to improve on Grenades.
Hell... Orks should get the first lot of Grenadier Units, maybe with some Rules that allow self-inflicted Wounds by mistake, as I have no problem seeing them running around flinging TNT everywhere.

Everyone here seems to have skipped some basics here... The first thing we should be asking is, "Where is the restriction on shooting in CC written?"

"You may not pick a unit that has advanced or fell back this turn, or a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit"

Nothing, not even the pistol's rule gets around this. This is technically the end of a RaW discussion on the topic. As written, units within 1" of an enemy cannot be nominated to shoot, period.

Let's say we're willing to move past that, and accept that the rule for pistols allows you to nominate the bearer's unit to shoot.

Technically, as written, there is no restriction on firing any weapons at this point. There never was a rule prohibiting you from *firing* weapons while within 1" of an enemy in the first place - the rule was against nominating the unit to shoot.

Buuut all of that goes back to the inferred authority to nominate a squad with at least one model equipped with a pistol.

Bottom line is that GW did a lame job writing the rules. We all know what they meant. Pistols only in CC - any other argument (while perhaps technically correct) is mental masturbation.

znelson wrote:

Bottom line is that GW did a lame job writing the rules. We all know what they meant. Pistols only in CC - any other argument (while perhaps technically correct) is mental masturbation.

Pretty much this. I can't believe there are currently 5 pages of people arguing that you can or can't throw a grenade at someone who's punching you in the face. While you can't necessarily use realism in a game where orks are teleporting around and BDSM space pirates are shooting at you, there is still a pretty clear distinction that RAI pistols are the only thing you can shoot in CQC without any specific special rules stating otherwise. Tiptoeing around the rules may be fun to think up for hypercompetitive people, but it completely sucks the fun out of general pick-up games.

znelson wrote:
Everyone here seems to have skipped some basics here... The first thing we should be asking is, "Where is the restriction on shooting in CC written?"

"You may not pick a unit that has advanced or fell back this turn, or a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit"

Nothing, not even the pistol's rule gets around this. This is technically the end of a RaW discussion on the topic. As written, units within 1" of an enemy cannot be nominated to shoot, period.

Let's say we're willing to move past that, and accept that the rule for pistols allows you to nominate the bearer's unit to shoot.

Technically, as written, there is no restriction on firing any weapons at this point. There never was a rule prohibiting you from *firing* weapons while within 1" of an enemy in the first place - the rule was against nominating the unit to shoot.

Buuut all of that goes back to the inferred authority to nominate a squad with at least one model equipped with a pistol.

Bottom line is that GW did a lame job writing the rules. We all know what they meant. Pistols only in CC - any other argument (while perhaps technically correct) is mental masturbation.

Actually, there is a separate restriction on firing weapons within 1" of a model beyond not being able to select a unit. The following is from step two of the shooting phase:

Models cannot target enemy units that are within 1" of friendly models – the risk of hitting your own troops is too great.

When assigning a target for each model to use their particular weapons on, you can not select a target unit that is within 1" of friendly models. Your own unit is made of friendly models, so you can pick the unit within 1" as a target. The pistol rules allow you to get by this on a per model basis, as all targeting is done per model. The following is also from the second step of the shooting phase:

In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model.

So, if we assume that you are allowed to select a unit to shoot with that is within 1" as long as it has Pistols (which seems to be intent otherwise pistols wouldn't work at all), you then move to a selecting targets for each model in the unit for each weapon they are firing/throwing. If we have a unit of 2 models, one with a Pistol and one with a Grenade, you target both of them separately. If this unit is within 1" of an enemy, it can be selected to shoot at all in the phase due to having the Pistol as long as it shoot the closest unit (this is not RAW but is the only intent by which the Pistol rules work at all). When targeting the model with the Pistol, you have explicit permission to target the unit within 1" as it allows you to ignore the friendly model restriction. However, if you try to target the model with a Grenade on the unit within 1", the rules specifically forbid you from doing this as there are friendly models within 1" and you have no permission to bypass this restriction with a Grenade (or any weapon that isn't a Pistol)

Znelson,
I was going to say 'oh yes, we know...' but you took the argument to another logical level that I never considered before... so.
*Slow Clap, building up to a roaring applause*
Nice, it is more broken then we originally thought!

Overheal wrote:Are models not part of the unit they are a part of?

They are, but actions taken by a model aren't necessarily taken by the unit. When you remove a model from play, are you removing a unit? Only if that is the last model of the unit.

Overheal wrote:Do units with models shooting not count as units doing shooting?

Where does it state they do?

The simple fact that Pistols allow Models to shoot at that range, but you can't select the unit to shoot in the first place. In this case, it must either be the models are able to take action on their own without being included in a unit action, or the Pistol's advantage means absolutely nothing as you never are able to select the Pistol in Shooting's Step 3, because you cannot get past Step 1.

Not matter which way you look at it, there is nothing that allows a unit armed with Pistols to use Grenades when they can't use Rapid Fire Weapons.

znelson wrote:Everyone here seems to have skipped some basics here... The first thing we should be asking is, "Where is the restriction on shooting in CC written?"

"You may not pick a unit that has advanced or fell back this turn, or a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit"

Nothing, not even the pistol's rule gets around this. This is technically the end of a RaW discussion on the topic. As written, units within 1" of an enemy cannot be nominated to shoot, period.

Correct. The Pistol rule is an allowance for the MODEL to Shoot when in that range, not the unit.

The question then is, when are models allowed to Shoot? Usually only when the unit goes to Shoot.

znelson wrote:Let's say we're willing to move past that, and accept that the rule for pistols allows you to nominate the bearer's unit to shoot.

Technically, as written, there is no restriction on firing any weapons at this point. There never was a rule prohibiting you from *firing* weapons while within 1" of an enemy in the first place - the rule was against nominating the unit to shoot.

Correction. There is no restriction on MODELS firing any Weapons at this point, because models cannot normally Shoot unless the unit is shooting.

znelson wrote:Bottom line is that GW did a lame job writing the rules. We all know what they meant. Pistols only in CC - any other argument (while perhaps technically correct) is mental masturbation.

It is not technically correct, it is Easter egg hunting on Christmas, i.e. looking for advantages where there aren't any and trying to make a similarity between two separate things and trying to present them as the same.

When a model is removed does the unit not suffer casualties and take a morale test?

Where in The Shooting Phase do you elect models and not units, to shoot?

How does the pistol fire if the unit it's in is not active for shooting in order to declare a target?

As above no I don't see this working for Assault, Heavy or Rapid Fire weapons. Only Grenades have the qualifier "every time a unit shoots"

 Overheal wrote:


Where in The Shooting Phase do you elect models and not units, to shoot?

Step 2, where it says "models cannot target enemy units that are within 1" of friendly models - the risk of hitting your own tropps is too great.". Of perhaps step 3 "If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit." Strangely, they don't mention this in step 2 where you declare the targets you're shooting at. It looks like things that apply in step 3 are meant to be retroactive to step 2 also given that.

The more I read this thread, the more confusing it gets.

Assault Weapon: allows you to do a shooting attack at -1 if you advance. Grenade allows you to give up a shooting attack with one Assault Weapon to throw a grenade. Is this different than:

Rapid Fire 1 Weapon: allows you to do an extra shooting attack with the weapon if the target is at half range. Grenade allows you to give up a shooting attack with one Rapid Fire 1 Weapon to throw a grenade. Is this different than:

Heavy Weapon: requires you to do your shooting attack at -1 if you moved. Grenade allows you to give up a shooting attack with one Heavy Weapon to throw a grenade. Is this different than:

Pistol Weapon: allows you to a do a shooting attack with the Pistol Weapon when closer than 1" to a enemy unit. Grenade allows you to give up a shooting attack with one Pistol Weapon to throw a grenade.

It's either all these are true or you can't throw grenades if you're shooting assault weapons after advancing, you can't throw grenades if you're using rapid fire and you can't throw grenades when you're shooting pistols in melee.

I'd go by being allowed to throw grenades in any case where a shooting attack is being made. e.g. Can you make a shooting attack? Is the enemy unit in range? Can you throw a grenade with a model instead of firing any other of it's weapons? Is the enemy unit in grenade range?

 doctortom wrote:

 Overheal wrote:


Where in The Shooting Phase do you elect models and not units, to shoot?

Step 2, where it says "models cannot target enemy units that are within 1" of friendly models - the risk of hitting your own tropps is too great.". Of perhaps step 3 "If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit." Strangely, they don't mention this in step 2 where you declare the targets you're shooting at. It looks like things that apply in step 3 are meant to be retroactive to step 2 also given that.

Again, I'm not suggesting grenades can ever be thrown, RAW or RAI, into enemy units within 1" of friendly models.

So I don't see what your saying.

doctortom wrote:

 Overheal wrote:

Where in The Shooting Phase do you elect models and not units, to shoot?

Step 2, where it says "models cannot target enemy units that are within 1" of friendly models - the risk of hitting your own tropps is too great.". Of perhaps step 3 "If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit." Strangely, they don't mention this in step 2 where you declare the targets you're shooting at. It looks like things that apply in step 3 are meant to be retroactive to step 2 also given that.

One cannot reach Step 2 or Step 3 without crossing Step 1. If you have crossed Step 1, then the unit is Shooting.

Overheal wrote:When a model is removed does the unit not suffer casualties and take a morale test?

Indeed it does, as it is stated as such. But unless that is the last (or only) model of the unit, we do not remove the unit when we remove a model.

Overheal wrote:Where in The Shooting Phase do you elect models and not units, to shoot?

How does the pistol fire if the unit it's in is not active for shooting in order to declare a target?

A point I raised if you were bothering to pay attention. It is only if we accept the Pistol's rule to override this restriction as well as the 1" restriction, can we have the model shooting when the unit does not.

Overheal wrote:As above no I don't see this working for Assault, Heavy or Rapid Fire weapons. Only Grenades have the qualifier "every time a unit shoots"

Well, when an Assault Weapon Shoots after the unit Advances, would that not also apply?

No matter how you try and twist and bend it, you are attributing the rules of one Weapon Type to another without explicit and direct instructions to do so. A Grenade is not allowed to be Shot when the unit is within 1" of a unit. A Grenade is not allowed to be Shot at a unit that is within 1" of a friendly unit. Your attribution of "when the unit shoots" is a red herring as it involves cherry picking what rules you are willing to follow whilst also ignoring the rules you do not want to follow.

It is a nice little loophole, but I concur:
If you are doing X instead of Y, you can not proceed to use Rules specific to Y.

A point I raised if you were bothering to pay attention.

text removed. reds8n

The model is still shooting and is part of the unit.

"Well, when an Assault Weapon Shoots after the unit Advances, would that not also apply? "

As mentioned earlier in the thread ("if you bothered to read it" we good?) yeah, it would/does. Assault weapons can be fired after advancing. A model in a unit firing an assault weapon -> unit is shooting -> "Every time a unit shoots..."

 Overheal wrote:

A point I raised if you were bothering to pay attention.

The model is still shooting and is part of the unit.

But the model cannot shoot as part of the unit as the unit is not allowed to be shooting. While models are part of a unit, just because a model does something does not necessarily mean it is because the unit is also doing it, and vice versa, unless we are specifically informed to address it as such. We do not remove units from play when we remove models from play.

For example, a model going to shoot a Heavy Weapon cares little if the unit moved, it only matters if the model moved. By this standard you are operating under, if one model moved in a unit, than a Devastator shooting his Lascannon would suffer a deficit to his To Hit roll.

 Overheal wrote:

Well, when an Assault Weapon Shoots after the unit Advances, would that not also apply?

As mentioned earlier in the thread ("if you bothered to read it" we good?) yeah, it would/does. Assault weapons can be fired after advancing. A model in a unit firing an assault weapon -> unit is shooting -> "Every time a unit shoots..."

But you are still mixing Weapon Types, something that is not allowed to do, nor have you been given permission to do so. You are attributing an action available to a model to one being performed by the unit. It says when the unit is shooting. A unit is not allowed to shoot in these circumstances, so a Grenade may not be shot any more than an Assault, Rapid Fire, or Heavy Weapon, and for the exact same reasons: they are operating under the same conditions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The statement, "Each time a unit shoots", is tied to the rest of the sentence. This sentence is actually a limitation and restriction on the number of models in the unit which may use this Weapon Type and the number of Weapons the model may shoot. At no point is it a removal of a restriction.

So if the unit is not allowed to be shooting how are pistols and assault weapons ever fired in CC or after advancing respectively?

 Overheal wrote:
So if the unit is not allowed to be shooting how are pistols and assault weapons ever fired in CC or after advancing respectively?

They aren't if you follow strict RAW to the letter.

 Overheal wrote:
So if the unit is not allowed to be shooting how are pistols and assault weapons ever fired in CC or after advancing respectively?

RaW you can't. So while you're making a unsound (at best) argument to using grenades within 1", I can point out a rock solid argument for you never being able to fire in the first place, which is what I would personally do if anyone tried to do this in a game I played.

 Overheal wrote:
So if the unit is not allowed to be shooting how are pistols and assault weapons ever fired in CC or after advancing respectively?

As I stated earlier, the statement that allows those models to shoot those weapons in particular is permission to bypass the step which requires the unit to be shooting to select the Weapon in the first place.

There is far less to jump over and fewer shenanigans employed here than striving to give a Weapon Type the ability of another Weapon Type without specific direction.

 Charistoph wrote:
As I stated earlier, the statement that allows those models to shoot those weapons in particular is permission to bypass the step which requires the unit to be shooting to select the Weapon in the first place.

Except strictly speaking it isn't.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
As I stated earlier, the statement that allows those models to shoot those weapons in particular is permission to bypass the step which requires the unit to be shooting to select the Weapon in the first place.

Except strictly speaking it isn't.

It's as close as any of the rules quoted so far go when considered in their entirety. I also stated earlier it isn't perfect and requires some leaps of logic to reach, but it is far less complicated and brings in fewer shenanigans than allowing a Weapon Type another Weapon Type's rules.

I think we all agree it is just another Game Workshop screw-up, and that it is easy to see what they where attempting to do:
Turn that +1 attack on Pistols into an actual shot that is fired into the face of the person you are stabbing.

Throwing a grenade into the face of the person you are stabbing is very unlikely to be what the Authors intended....

Got another message back GW. No you cannot use grenades in melee. However they gave he obligtory play how you want and to have fun blah blah blah. They also said the pass this on to the FAQ team for further evaluation.

I know many people on this forum don't take any rule clarifications unless it's in the published FAQ, but for me this debate is over.

 Tsol wrote:
Got another message back GW. No you cannot use grenades in melee. However they gave he obligtory play how you want and to have fun blah blah blah. They also said the pass this on to the FAQ team for further evaluation.

I know many people on this forum don't take any rule clarifications unless it's in the published FAQ, but for me this debate is over.

The debate was over after the first reply to be honest. Hopefully we get a one of those "Stop being dum" FAQs like the "Can I call my guard regiment Ultramarines" FAQ denial.

 JinxDragon wrote:
Throwing a grenade into the face of the person you are stabbing is very unlikely to be what the Authors intended....

Some of the weapons classed as grenades have been described as being intended for use at close range, like Melta Bombs, which are designed to be clamped onto things, and Krak Grenades, which are magnetized grenades with a shaped charge that are designed to be placed onto things. On top of that, there are all sorts of uses for grenades at close range--tossing them into bunkers or emplacements, tossing them through vehicle hatches, down the barrels of large cannons, and even down the throats of monstrous creatures and the like. Also, some grenades (like the ones used by Reivers) are akin to non-lethal grenades that, in real life, are routinely used in close quarters.

This isn't to say I think that the designers intended for grenades to be thrown in close combat. I suspect that they didn't. However, there are all sorts of uses for grenades in close combat, one that earlier versions of the game have taken into account, so the idea of using grenades in close combat is not ridiculous on its face.

I'm confused with grenades. The rulebook doesn't stipulate between weapons with the 'grenade' type and weapons with grenades in the name but are assault weapons. If it's an assault weapon type with grenade in the name does that mean that the whole squad can shoot them?

Ah, Dakka never fails to impress. Threads and arguments like this are why 40K players as a whole are widely viewed with veiled amusement by the wider tabletop gaming community.

It's amazing the mental gymnastics people will perform in their best efforts to get as far from the overwhelmingly obvious intention of a rule - as if we're proving a case in court instead of playing a game of toy soldiers.

 Klowny wrote:
I'm confused with grenades. The rulebook doesn't stipulate between weapons with the 'grenade' type and weapons with grenades in the name but are assault weapons. If it's an assault weapon type with grenade in the name does that mean that the whole squad can shoot them?

When a Weapon is processed, we are looking at everything past the name, i.e. Range, Type, Abilities, etc.

YoungBlood 13,
In previous Editions they had Rules to reflect those situations, and I have already mentioned I would like to see return of those Rules.

Elbows,
It is a forum dedicated to arguing over Warhammer 40K's Rules... we are not here to play the game, but argue about the game.
What else would you expect but an argument, with Rules written by Game Workshop and a soap box to stand on?

Klowny,
I haven't researched it in depth but the old saying of "Assault Cannons are not Assault and Heavy Flamers are not Heavy" rings true here. The name is not important as the Weapon Type contains the Restriction, and these weapons (I did look at one) are indeed Assault. Really hard for me to conclude that that the Authors would make a mistake of writing down the name "Wrist Mounted Grenade Launcher" and even use the random number of hit mechanic for a "Blast weapon," and then just make a mistake and write down the word 'Assault' instead of the word 'Grenade.' No, the author wanted this weapon to use the 'move and shoot' rule of Assault, not the 'one per Unit' rule of Grenades.

I wasn't sure as the rule for grenades doesn't specify if its in regards to the weapon type, or just grenades. I can see how you are saying it and I was thinking along those lines, but at the end of the day an assault grenade launcher is shooting grenades. But thanks guys!

 Klowny wrote:
I wasn't sure as the rule for grenades doesn't specify if its in regards to the weapon type, or just grenades. I can see how you are saying it and I was thinking along those lines, but at the end of the day an assault grenade launcher is shooting grenades. But thanks guys!

The rules for Grenades are listed under Weapon Type the same as Rapid Fire and Pistol. Indeed, they are between Rapid Fire and Pistol with the heading listed as the same font. Why would you not consider the Type under a Weapon's listing for processing these rules?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Tsol wrote:
Got another message back GW. No you cannot use grenades in melee. However they gave he obligtory play how you want and to have fun blah blah blah. They also said the pass this on to the FAQ team for further evaluation.

I know many people on this forum don't take any rule clarifications unless it's in the published FAQ, but for me this debate is over.

The debate was over after the first reply to be honest. Hopefully we get a one of those "Stop being dum" FAQs like the "Can I call my guard regiment Ultramarines" FAQ denial.

Oh my gawd, I forgot about that...

I mean I'm good with locking this, because it will just be cyclical now.

RAW is of course not always perfect; I do think in the future they need to revisit the design intent for grenade/bomb usage. But that's not a YMDC issue.

Psh, if going down this route, why stop at 1 grenade? If we go model by model for activating pistol shooting instead of by whole unit, and grenades can work once each time a unit fires, then clearly my unit of 10 is firing 10 times and I can throw 10 grenades in CC. :p

bort wrote:
Psh, if going down this route, why stop at 1 grenade? If we go model by model for activating pistol shooting instead of by whole unit, and grenades can work once each time a unit fires, then clearly my unit of 10 is firing 10 times and I can throw 10 grenades in CC. :p

Because there is a specific limit of one Grenade per unit being fired. It is not based on the model firing alone like the Pistol is stating.

 Charistoph wrote:

bort wrote:
Psh, if going down this route, why stop at 1 grenade? If we go model by model for activating pistol shooting instead of by whole unit, and grenades can work once each time a unit fires, then clearly my unit of 10 is firing 10 times and I can throw 10 grenades in CC. :p

Because there is a specific limit of one Grenade per unit being fired. It is not based on the model firing alone like the Pistol is stating.

There is also a limit of Not being able to fire within 1" with non-pistols, but for some reason that limit magically goes away?

BaconCatBug wrote:There is also a limit of Not being able to fire within 1" with non-pistols, but for some reason that limit magically goes away?

If only this thread would do the same thing.

Any mods want to kill this thread with fire?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Any mods want to kill this thread with fire?

This thread is a Heretic. You know what to do with those.

Stop posting in here and it will sink to the buttom.

Damn, i posted