Sorry to everyone who thought this was a rumour. I got distracted and forgot to type in a few lines that would have prevented my misinterpretation. This was suppose to be a discussion for what you would think if GW did a major recton in their history.
Again sorry. I apologize if I got some people upset for me not proof reading. It was not my intent.
*edit*
It seems I have made a mistake and said I have read this on another thread here on Dakka. Didn't mean to take this as a rumour. Sorry for that.
*/edit*
Major SPOILER. Don't read if you want Blood Angel fluff. You have been warned. Don't be read any further if you want to be suprsied.
Spoiler:
So. Sanguinius is alive. Not well, but another Robute Gulliman (spelling?) story. While I am not a Blood Angel player, part of the magic of 40K is gone. I mean dying for your cause is special. Now he is not dead but like Gulliman, and Lion El'Jonson. The epic story has just gotten boring. I mean now it's what another primarch in statis and seconds from death.
So if true and we are not being trolled what do you think? I don't like this recton. I mean this sounds so un 40ish now. I know sometimes you need a recton but some things you just don't change. So what is next?
Spoiler:
Horus is not dead either? I guess he is in statis and seconds from death as well.
My opinion is that they have said a small comment on a stream that can be misinterpreted, so I'm just gonna wait and see how this ends. This won't stop people from flipping the tables and sh***ng themselves all over the place like monkeys, of course. I think is futile to be angry for something that can happen or not happen, even if its end being true. Then, one can be angry.
Big S isn't dead? That's so cool to me. However, I'm not sure how Big H would be if the emperor ripped him into nothingness, spirit included. They're gonna have to dig deep into their bag of BS for explaining that one.
They told us a long time ago that HH won't end like we think it will, and since then we've been chanting "Don't do it, don't you fething do it", and well they just did it. There are plenty of primarchs still alive or whereabouts unknown, they didn't need to retcon one of the most Iconic parts of the HH.
As an old school ba player, I'm not impressed at any level. But honestly, at this point I'm not surprised. At all. Just wait until they release the new emperor model.
According to others, this is a result of people not actually paying attention:
Chikout wrote: I would not worry too much. I listened to that interview live and he straight up said Sanguinius was dead just before the stasis comment. I am quite sure that as others have said he was referring to the corpse being in stasis.
So, no change. Dead, but body in stasis (presumably so they can use Dad's Blood)
So pause freakouts, and resume your normal Chaplain-approved daycycle.
This is a lot like when people get really mad at Buzzfeed clickbait headlines or Onion articles and start freaking out without actually reading anything.
If Sanguinius can be brought back, why couldn't the Emperor? Why not bring back Lord Solar Macharius & every other hero of the IoM? The death of Horus was the most significant event to occur in the 40K setting. Largely due to the death of both Sanguinius & the Emperor. By bringing back Sanguinius it makes that event less significant. Sanguinius sacrifice cannot be surpassed.
I'm not hating on Sanguinius or Blood Angels. I'm a big fan of both. I just don't see how it improves the setting. Its kind of like what happened in Game of Thrones recently. One of the main reasons people watch Game of Thrones is because anyone could die. Recently however, several characters which were deemed dead, or died came back to life due to plot armor. In doing so, it allows the audience to latch onto those characters because they know they have said plot armor and they will not die. In the end, the very thing that attracted said audience to the show was lost in the process.
Bringing back Sanguinius would fragment the 40k community & undermine the very foundation the setting resides upon: Grimdark.
Primarchs are highly marketable premium models which can be sold at a lucrative mark-up, and there is demand for them as 30k has clearly shown.
Why wouldn't a publicly listed company with shareholders who have expectations on return in their investment ride roughshod over established fluff in order to make more profit?
Just seems logical irrespective of how precious the fanbase are over the fluff.
Primarchs are highly marketable premium models which can be sold at a lucrative mark-up, and there is demand for them as 30k has clearly shown.
Why wouldn't a publicly listed company with shareholders who have expectations on return in their investment ride roughshod over established fluff in order to make more profit?
Just seems logical irrespective of how precious the fanbase are over the fluff.
The 40K setting hasn't even begun to see its potential & has the ability to surpass Star Wars & Star Trek in fanbase. Why kill the entire setting for 1 sale, when its potential is limitless? Its short sighted & foolish.
...Cawl screws something up and all they get is a reanimated zombie Sangy who just wants to murder whatever he sees with primarch strength. As if he himself has fallen to the rage.
They haul him around in stasis like a WMD version of death company and only let him loose when all other options are gone. And then they run and come back later and hope to god he's at least slightly winded so they can lull him back to sleep.
I would pay cash money for insane zombie sanguinius model.
Voss wrote: According to others, this is a result of people not actually paying attention:
Chikout wrote: I would not worry too much. I listened to that interview live and he straight up said Sanguinius was dead just before the stasis comment. I am quite sure that as others have said he was referring to the corpse being in stasis.
So, no change. Dead, but body in stasis (presumably so they can use Dad's Blood)
So pause freakouts, and resume your normal Chaplain-approved daycycle.
It's always funny to read a post like this, and then see everyone who ignores it in order to get their freakout on.
I've heard this as well, that his body is in stasis and his soul is somewhere else, so if they were reunited he would be reborn. Honestly I find it a bit lame; I liked the old fluff where the loyal primarchs were akin to "tall tales" like Paul Bunyan; lots of myths and legends surrounding them and their deeds, but nobody is alive who really remembers the truth since it's had 10,000 years of Imperial Propaganda to be manipulated. Hell, I liked when the Horus Heresy was like that too before Forgeworld started to expand it and detail every bit; it was IMHO better as a legend from the far past that has a lot of various tales of what happened, any/none of which may or may not be true.
It's pretty clear they want to set up the "Big Four" loyalists versus the "Big Four" traitors. So Russ, Guilliman, Lion and Sanguinius versus Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim and Magnus s the big confrontation. Whether that means the others will come back as well or not is up to debate, but those ones are all but guaranteed (we already have two of the traitors actually available, and strong rumors of the other two coming in the future).
I think it's a little too comic book retcon-y for my taste. It removes a lot of the cool factor of the setting for the sake of putting out yet another likely overpowered model to milk sales. Remember, Sanguinius' death was basically the keystone of allowing the Emperor to kill Horus; he's the only primarch to have an imperial holiday to honor his sacrifice (the Sanguinala). If he comes back to life, does he still get the holiday? Wouldn't that cure the Black Rage since it's the psychic after-effect of his death i.e. no more Death Company?
The whole point of 40k and moving this storyline forward with the 13th Black Crusade was to show that mankind is facing the "End Times", and is on the brink of extinction but has to fight back. By bringing back primarchs, that is more akin to it moving away from that feeling of hopelessness on all sides and the forces of Chaos encroaching and into the realm of godlike heroes coming to save the Imperium, which grows stronger than ever before. It's really gakky storytelling IMHO.
Wayniac wrote: I've heard this as well, that his body is in stasis and his soul is somewhere else, so if they were reunited he would be reborn. Honestly I find it a bit lame; I liked the old fluff where the loyal primarchs were akin to "tall tales" like Paul Bunyan; lots of myths and legends surrounding them and their deeds, but nobody is alive who really remembers the truth since it's had 10,000 years of Imperial Propaganda to be manipulated. Hell, I liked when the Horus Heresy was like that too before Forgeworld started to expand it and detail every bit; it was IMHO better as a legend from the far past that has a lot of various tales of what happened, any/none of which may or may not be true.
It's pretty clear they want to set up the "Big Four" loyalists versus the "Big Four" traitors. So Russ, Guilliman, Lion and Sanguinius versus Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim and Magnus s the big confrontation. Whether that means the others will come back as well or not is up to debate, but those ones are all but guaranteed (we already have two of the traitors actually available, and strong rumors of the other two coming in the future).
I think it's a little too comic book retcon-y for my taste. It removes a lot of the cool factor of the setting for the sake of putting out yet another likely overpowered model to milk sales. Remember, Sanguinius' death was basically the keystone of allowing the Emperor to kill Horus; he's the only primarch to have an imperial holiday to honor his sacrifice (the Sanguinala). If he comes back to life, does he still get the holiday? Wouldn't that cure the Black Rage since it's the psychic after-effect of his death i.e. no more Death Company?
The whole point of 40k and moving this storyline forward with the 13th Black Crusade was to show that mankind is facing the "End Times", and is on the brink of extinction but has to fight back. By bringing back primarchs, that is more akin to it moving away from that feeling of hopelessness on all sides and the forces of Chaos encroaching and into the realm of godlike heroes coming to save the Imperium, which grows stronger than ever before. It's really gakky storytelling IMHO.
As above, (holy crap the posts came in fast) what if he comes back just perma black raged. He literally remembers fighting and being killed by Horus, which is what all the black rage victims see. xD
I just can't see why so many people claim this is their breaking point, and not the absolute trainwreck the heresy novels have been up until now, or the breaching of the taint that is heresy novels into modern 40k fall of Cadia represented.
Primarchs are highly marketable premium models which can be sold at a lucrative mark-up, and there is demand for them as 30k has clearly shown.
Why wouldn't a publicly listed company with shareholders who have expectations on return in their investment ride roughshod over established fluff in order to make more profit?
Just seems logical irrespective of how precious the fanbase are over the fluff.
The 40K setting hasn't even begun to see its potential & has the ability to surpass Star Wars & Star Trek in fanbase. Why kill the entire setting for 1 sale, when its potential is limitless? Its short sighted & foolish.
In order to realise its 'potential' 40k would need new people to take up the hobby i.e. people who don't necessarily know much about the established fluff in any case and who go 'wow, that Ferrus Manus cyborg primarch run by an AI is awesome'. See how much established fluff I broke in one sentence, only two primary bits before someone gets sarky, yet think of the sweet profit and influx of new IH fanboys...
Wayniac wrote: I've heard this as well, that his body is in stasis and his soul is somewhere else, so if they were reunited he would be reborn. Honestly I find it a bit lame; I liked the old fluff where the loyal primarchs were akin to "tall tales" like Paul Bunyan; lots of myths and legends surrounding them and their deeds, but nobody is alive who really remembers the truth since it's had 10,000 years of Imperial Propaganda to be manipulated. Hell, I liked when the Horus Heresy was like that too before Forgeworld started to expand it and detail every bit; it was IMHO better as a legend from the far past that has a lot of various tales of what happened, any/none of which may or may not be true.
This hasn't ever really been true though. Bjorn has always been around since the Heresy, but given that nobody outside of the Wolves engages with him at length...
It's pretty clear they want to set up the "Big Four" loyalists versus the "Big Four" traitors. So Russ, Guilliman, Lion and Sanguinius versus Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim and Magnus s the big confrontation. Whether that means the others will come back as well or not is up to debate, but those ones are all but guaranteed (we already have two of the traitors actually available, and strong rumors of the other two coming in the future).
Really? Because that's not the impression I've gotten. If anything, I think that it's funny how people have ignored that The Lion didn't really have an "archenemy" in that mix of Daemon Primarchs.
Guilliman is, effectively, the foil to Abaddon. He is intended to be a unifying factor for the Imperium. More importantly though he was also in a grudge-match with the Alpha Legion, of which we know someone survived between the Twins.
Corax and his Raven Guard have had a long-running history now with Mortarion and his Death Guard. Corax is, currently, MIA presumed dead. He's one of the ones who can come back.
Vulkan is known to be still kicking around as of the end of "The Beast Arises" series and has a monster sized grudge with Angron because of Isstvan.
Russ and Magnus is a done deal.
The Khan has a grudge with Fulgrim.
I think it's a little too comic book retcon-y for my taste. It removes a lot of the cool factor of the setting for the sake of putting out yet another likely overpowered model to milk sales. Remember, Sanguinius' death was basically the keystone of allowing the Emperor to kill Horus; he's the only primarch to have an imperial holiday to honor his sacrifice (the Sanguinala). If he comes back to life, does he still get the holiday? Wouldn't that cure the Black Rage since it's the psychic after-effect of his death i.e. no more Death Company?
The whole thing about Sanguinius' death has always been that Horus obliterated his soul-essence. It's why the Emperor killed Horus the way that he did.
Nothing about what was posted/discussed yesterday made it seem like he's coming back beyond the usual hysterics from the fanbase.
The whole point of 40k and moving this storyline forward with the 13th Black Crusade was to show that mankind is facing the "End Times", and is on the brink of extinction but has to fight back. By bringing back primarchs, that is more akin to it moving away from that feeling of hopelessness on all sides and the forces of Chaos encroaching and into the realm of godlike heroes coming to save the Imperium, which grows stronger than ever before. It's really gakky storytelling IMHO.
The problem is that it was never really a "feeling of hopelessness on all sides". It's always been "the Imperium is surrounded and things are crap but hey, we're still top dogs in spite of it".
The Imperium is and always has been on the defensive. The collapse of the Cadian Gate means that things are changing. Daemon Primarchs are free to wander the material world and things thought lost to history and myth are coming back. The Inquisition can't hide things anymore so now we're getting into the true End Times.
There's a reason that the three books that we got to end 7th were called "The Gathering Storm" and not "The End Times".
fe40k wrote: You can either have your primarch on the tabletop, but have lore issues; or you can have your lore fine, but not primarch on the tabletop.
You can’t have both - you need to pick one.
And we all know that you’d rather have an op primarch since everyone else will have one, than no primarch at all.
You can call call him something else fluff wise.
I have never understand this. Why 40k needs for the character to be alive in the present timeline to have a playable model with rules? In Fantasy 70% of the Greenskins armybook special characters where historic characters that had died hundreds of years before the present timeline of the setting. Heck, in 40k you have that with Aun'va, for example. They could totally do a model of Sanguinius for 40k without him being alive.
They could use that to make cool models of Solar Macharius for example, or other historic figures from the 31K-39K period.
I want to see Sangy resurrected for 40K. Bobby G is a great model, strong rules, and shows how popular Primarchs can be in 40K.
But if it doesn't happen, that's OK. I'll just wait patiently for the 30K Version of Sangy and play Blood Angels then. It's hard to describe what its like playing a game with a Primarch. You have a model that will basically last the entire game unless your opponent devotes everything he has to destroying your Primarch... allowing the rest of your army to win the game. It's no joke to say that the only way to defeat a Primarch is with another Primarch. You have this model that costs 400-500 points, and he gives your entire army another trait beyond what they already have, gives access to additional rules, and is a bad himself. It's Hero Hammer with a capital 'H'. I love that about the Horus Heresy! They are a huge force multiplier and can directly influence the game.
Galas wrote:My opinion is that they have said a small comment on a stream that can be misinterpreted, so I'm just gonna wait and see how this ends. This won't stop people from flipping the tables and sh***ng themselves all over the place like monkeys, of course. I think is futile to be angry for something that can happen or not happen, even if its end being true. Then, one can be angry.
That is good to know. Thank you for that.
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:I fail to see what the issue is?
Primarchs are highly marketable premium models which can be sold at a lucrative mark-up, and there is demand for them as 30k has clearly shown.
Why wouldn't a publicly listed company with shareholders who have expectations on return in their investment ride roughshod over established fluff in order to make more profit?
Just seems logical irrespective of how precious the fanbase are over the fluff.
The issue is changing the fluff/story that lots of people held on for decades to be "true". Good example would be Star Trek. The last 3 Star Trek movies are so uncanon it's sickening for me and lots of other Star Trek fans. For one, Kirk and Spock were never in the academy together. Spock and Uhura were never lovers. What is next, Luke Skywalker was never a Jedi and he and Han Solo became lovers? It's just something that is changed were I and lots of people don't agree with.
Want to go one step further? Why not say that the Emperor is not dead because he is Sigmar. So now we can become like Warmahordes, and have our 40K be able to fight Age of Sigmar minis and units now for "just because". How would you like that?
Sgt_Smudge wrote:I have just one question for the OP?
What's the proof? What's the situation? Where's the source?
This sounds like clickbait and baseless speculation.
I think Voss is right that this isn't true.
So Dakka is just a clickbait then? That is where I read it from, the below quote.
AveImperator wrote:They stated that in the video that: "Sanguinus is in statis/bad shape state."
If they retcon Sanguinius back into being alive, then that is the biggest load of garbage GW would have pulled off in my gaming life, and this is coming from a guy who started playing 40k back in 2nd ed.
Jesus, if they are so disconnected that they bring back Sanguinius I am done with the new 40k fluff, his death is so pivotal to the background of 40k and so important, I just could not accept this "deus ex" moment.
fe40k wrote: You can either have your primarch on the tabletop, but have lore issues; or you can have your lore fine, but not primarch on the tabletop.
You can’t have both - you need to pick one.
And we all know that you’d rather have an op primarch since everyone else will have one, than no primarch at all.
You can call call him something else fluff wise.
I have never understand this. Why 40k needs for the character to be alive in the present timeline to have a playable model with rules? In Fantasy 70% of the Greenskins armybook special characters where historic characters that had died hundreds of years before the present timeline of the setting. Heck, in 40k you have that with Aun'va, for example. They could totally do a model of Sanguinius for 40k without him being alive.
They could use that to make cool models of Solar Macharius for example, or other historic figures from the 31K-39K period.
This is what I think should have been mentioned. However, there is a difference between 40K Sanguinius because it's 40k. A Horus Heresy Sanguinius is totally fine. However, I don't think Sanguinius is coming back. It's such a major part of the story, and even GW has some form of logic, albeit a twisted one. They can tell people don't like known dead primarchs coming back, that's a fact, and I don't think they'll break that rule.
Formosa wrote: Jesus, if they are so disconnected that they bring back Sanguinius I am done with the new 40k fluff, his death is so pivotal to the background of 40k and so important, I just could not accept this "deus ex" moment.
Isn't the Sanguinor an Avatar of Sanguinius? Was his sould destroyed like Horus? I believed he was just dead. Normal dead. And his sould in the Warp mannifest as the Sanguinor to help his sons.
Galas wrote: Isn't the Sanguinor an Avatar of Sanguinius? Was his sould destroyed like Horus? I believed he was just dead. Normal dead. And his sould in the Warp mannifest as the Sanguinor to help his sons.
I think the Heresy novels revealed the Sanguinor is an actual Marine rather than a spirit thing like the Legion of the Damned.
fe40k wrote: You can either have your primarch on the tabletop, but have lore issues; or you can have your lore fine, but not primarch on the tabletop.
You can’t have both - you need to pick one.
And we all know that you’d rather have an op primarch since everyone else will have one, than no primarch at all.
You can call call him something else fluff wise.
I have never understand this. Why 40k needs for the character to be alive in the present timeline to have a playable model with rules? In Fantasy 70% of the Greenskins armybook special characters where historic characters that had died hundreds of years before the present timeline of the setting. Heck, in 40k you have that with Aun'va, for example. They could totally do a model of Sanguinius for 40k without him being alive.
They could use that to make cool models of Solar Macharius for example, or other historic figures from the 31K-39K period.
Indeed, especially since most of the IG characters are about 200 years old by now and should be dead - and nevertheless Marbo got a new model.
Formosa wrote: Jesus, if they are so disconnected that they bring back Sanguinius I am done with the new 40k fluff, his death is so pivotal to the background of 40k and so important, I just could not accept this "deus ex" moment.
How is it pivotal to all 40k...
How do you not know?
Sanguinius sacrificed himself, knowing he could not win and was going to die, he wanted to hold back the darkness but had no chance in succeeding, yet still went, and even for all his nobility his sacrifice was in vain, that literally embodies the core theme of 40k grim darkness, that no matter who you are, or what you have done, Chaos will always win in the end, your just holding back the tide.
Now if he returns? Well anyone can, and his sacrifice meant nothing at all, you break one of the central tenets of 40k and the second biggest event in the psyche of the imperium (first being the emperors acention to the golden throne) the death of the emperors most noble son, sacrificing himself at the hands of the serpent (Horus).
I'm not gonna just the gun on this as I doubt even gw is stupid enough to try to pull this one off, but if they do the new 40k (8th ed) fluff is a total no go for me, it's almost universally a dumpster fire already, this would push it over the edge.
Formosa wrote: Jesus, if they are so disconnected that they bring back Sanguinius I am done with the new 40k fluff, his death is so pivotal to the background of 40k and so important, I just could not accept this "deus ex" moment.
How is it pivotal to all 40k...
How do you not know?
Sanguinius sacrificed himself, knowing he could not win and was going to die, he wanted to hold back the darkness but had no chance in succeeding, yet still went, and even for all his nobility his sacrifice was in vain, that literally embodies the core theme of 40k grim darkness, that no matter who you are, or what you have done, Chaos will always win in the end, your just holding back the tide.
Now if he returns? Well anyone can, and his sacrifice meant nothing at all, you break one of the central tenets of 40k and the second biggest event in the psyche of the imperium (first being the emperors acention to the golden throne) the death of the emperors most noble son, sacrificing himself at the hands of the serpent (Horus).
I'm not gonna just the gun on this as I doubt even gw is stupid enough to try to pull this one off, but if they do the new 40k (8th ed) fluff is a total no go for me, it's almost universally a dumpster fire already, this would push it over the edge.
I wouldn't call that pivotal seeing as if he doesn't do that things don't change much.
It defines the setting well but pivotal it is not.
I don't see why they would need to bring back Sanguinius of all Primarchs, to be honest. It's not like there aren't any others left. Vulkan, Lion, Khan, Dorn, Corvus, Leman...none of those is considered to be permanently dead out-of-universe, so why not bring back them instead?
Wayniac wrote: I've heard this as well, that his body is in stasis and his soul is somewhere else, so if they were reunited he would be reborn. Honestly I find it a bit lame; I liked the old fluff where the loyal primarchs were akin to "tall tales" like Paul Bunyan; lots of myths and legends surrounding them and their deeds, but nobody is alive who really remembers the truth since it's had 10,000 years of Imperial Propaganda to be manipulated. Hell, I liked when the Horus Heresy was like that too before Forgeworld started to expand it and detail every bit; it was IMHO better as a legend from the far past that has a lot of various tales of what happened, any/none of which may or may not be true.
It's pretty clear they want to set up the "Big Four" loyalists versus the "Big Four" traitors. So Russ, Guilliman, Lion and Sanguinius versus Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim and Magnus s the big confrontation. Whether that means the others will come back as well or not is up to debate, but those ones are all but guaranteed (we already have two of the traitors actually available, and strong rumors of the other two coming in the future).
I think it's a little too comic book retcon-y for my taste. It removes a lot of the cool factor of the setting for the sake of putting out yet another likely overpowered model to milk sales. Remember, Sanguinius' death was basically the keystone of allowing the Emperor to kill Horus; he's the only primarch to have an imperial holiday to honor his sacrifice (the Sanguinala). If he comes back to life, does he still get the holiday? Wouldn't that cure the Black Rage since it's the psychic after-effect of his death i.e. no more Death Company?
The whole point of 40k and moving this storyline forward with the 13th Black Crusade was to show that mankind is facing the "End Times", and is on the brink of extinction but has to fight back. By bringing back primarchs, that is more akin to it moving away from that feeling of hopelessness on all sides and the forces of Chaos encroaching and into the realm of godlike heroes coming to save the Imperium, which grows stronger than ever before. It's really gakky storytelling IMHO.
So much this. The Horus Heresy books are the Star Wars prequels of 40k. In every comparable way.
So I talked with someone who actually watched the devstream, and the way they explained it, the "Sanguinius is alive!" thing is wrong.
Sanguinius is dead. Deader than dead. His body is in stasis, never reaching rigor mortis and never rotting-- but he's still dead. People are taking the "his body is in stasis" thing out of context and assuming this means he's the same as Guilliman.
Commissar Benny wrote: One of the main reasons people watch Game of Thrones is because anyone could die. Recently however, several characters which were deemed dead, or died came back to life due to plot armor. In doing so, it allows the audience to latch onto those characters because they know they have said plot armor and they will not die. In the end, the very thing that attracted said audience to the show was lost in the process.
I'm just going to touch this, because I don't feel it's a good example. Prepare for tangent:
Spoiler:
Basically, Game of Thrones (more specifically A Song of Ice and Fire) was always going to have this problem near the end of the series. Regardless of medium, regardless of what happened previously, we were always going to see this turn around.
Why? Well, Thrones (I'll say that because it's easy) is really two stories rolled into one.
The most prominent one, the one which we've seen the most of and which has been the focal point, is a tale of humans being humans. Specifically that they're donkey-caves and tend to screw one another over at the drop of a hat for any gain they can muster. This is the kind of story which you can write with anyone dying at any time, because it's more about the dickery and gut punches than anything else.
There has been, however, a second story which has been present since the very first chapter. A very traditional fantasy tale of an ancient evil, long forgotten, rising from the depths and trying to take over the world.
The problem is that these two stories are now meeting and intertwining, when they're not very compatible in some ways. You can pull off the gut-punch murders in the "humans are dick" story because it works, it's arguably why that sort of story works. Inversely, the "traditional high fantasy tale" needs its heroes. Having Todd the Magical Fletcher - a never before seen character - show up to the final fight leading an army of invulnerable battle strippers who trounce the ancient evil is something no one would see coming, but it'd be really awful storytelling and absolutely no one would like it.
Different stories get people to invest in their characters in different ways, and Thrones has transformed into a fairly traditional, if suitably dark, high fantasy tale. It won't be able to pull off much in the way of shocking deaths at this point until it starts to wrap up (I.E. next season), and that's just the way it goes unfortunately.
Why does this differentiate from 40K? Well, I'd argue that 40k didn't used to have significant heroes. Back before Primarchs started to come back, pretty much everyone was relatively small fry in comparison to sheer scale of the setting. That's changing now though, which I'll agree is gakky. But it's more a shift from a story revolving around the 'setting', and the massive (if without active figure heads) forces which fight in it.. To a few brothers trying to skull-feth their estranged brothers, while Orks and Necrons blast out 90s grunge in the background.
Melissia wrote: So I talked with someone who actually watched the devstream, and the way they explained it, the "Sanguinius is alive!" thing is wrong.
Sanguinius is dead. Deader than dead. His body is in stasis, never reaching rigor mortis and never rotting-- but he's still dead. People are taking the "his body is in stasis" thing out of context and assuming this means he's the same as Guilliman.
Shush, don't dare meddle in people's process into throwing a chimpout over already imagined and solved grievances originated from some austrian's poor grasp of the english language!
Formosa wrote: Jesus, if they are so disconnected that they bring back Sanguinius I am done with the new 40k fluff, his death is so pivotal to the background of 40k and so important, I just could not accept this "deus ex" moment.
How is it pivotal to all 40k...
How do you not know?
Sanguinius sacrificed himself, knowing he could not win and was going to die, he wanted to hold back the darkness but had no chance in succeeding, yet still went, and even for all his nobility his sacrifice was in vain, that literally embodies the core theme of 40k grim darkness, that no matter who you are, or what you have done, Chaos will always win in the end, your just holding back the tide.
Now if he returns? Well anyone can, and his sacrifice meant nothing at all, you break one of the central tenets of 40k and the second biggest event in the psyche of the imperium (first being the emperors acention to the golden throne) the death of the emperors most noble son, sacrificing himself at the hands of the serpent (Horus).
I'm not gonna just the gun on this as I doubt even gw is stupid enough to try to pull this one off, but if they do the new 40k (8th ed) fluff is a total no go for me, it's almost universally a dumpster fire already, this would push it over the edge.
I wouldn't call that pivotal seeing as if he doesn't do that things don't change much.
It defines the setting well but pivotal it is not.
Then no offence you are wrong, had sanguinius not sacrificed himself the whole universe would be a totally different place, the Emperor would likely have died and Horus would have succeeded, that would then lead the extinction of the human race and the defeat of the chaos gods, that is as pivotal as it gets.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:I have just one question for the OP?
What's the proof? What's the situation? Where's the source?
This sounds like clickbait and baseless speculation.
I think Voss is right that this isn't true.
So Dakka is just a clickbait then?
I didn't say Dakka was clickbait. I said this thread is.
You've provided no source at all in your OP. How am I supposed to believe something without a source I can trust?
That is where I read it from, the below quote.
AveImperator wrote:They stated that in the video that:
"Sanguinus is in statis/bad shape state."
Did you watch the video yourself?
What's your view then on the people who actually watched the stream, and confirm that GW said no such thing? How about the comment made a few posts after, saying
Chikout wrote: I would not worry too much. I listened to that interview live and he straight up said Sanguinius was dead just before the stasis comment. I am quite sure that as others have said he was referring to the corpse being in stasis.
Seriously, if I see a source where GW said that Sangy is ALIVE, I'll believe you, but considering plenty of people have said this isn't true, I don't think I believe you.
I don't know why people are thinking that GW has said anything like suggesting he's alive, They haven't.
I warned about this when Magnus came out. Primarchs, ALL OF THEM, belong to 30k. But everybody bought the new action figure/powerplay models. This is the result.
Kaiyanwang wrote: I warned about this when Magnus came out.
Primarchs, ALL OF THEM, belong to 30k.
But everybody bought the new action figure/powerplay models.
This is the result.
You mean the status quo staying as it is ... is due to the horus heresy??
Because, you know, that's what's being discussed about. Guy's is more dead than a KKK member in the midst of Compton.
Kaiyanwang wrote: I warned about this when Magnus came out.
Primarchs, ALL OF THEM, belong to 30k.
But everybody bought the new action figure/powerplay models.
This is the result.
You mean the status quo staying as it is ... is due to the horus heresy??
Because, you know, that's what's being discussed about. Guy's is more dead than a KKK member in the midst of Compton.
I will wait and see what happens. I will be happy to be wrong.
Kaiyanwang wrote: I warned about this when Magnus came out.
Primarchs, ALL OF THEM, belong to 30k.
But everybody bought the new action figure/powerplay models.
This is the result.
The only problem with this idea is that several Primarchs are still in 40K in the form of Daemon Princes. I look at it like this: The Bad Guys have all the big, bad, scary characters in the form of Daemon Princes, while the Good Guys have...? Chapter Masters have been reduced to "barely above Captains", while the IG have no serious characters at all! It's been so bad for the IG that they had to resurrect Sly Marbo and give him Chapter Master stats!
So yeah, it was nice to finally see the Space Marines get a model comparable to a Daemon Prince and something that Imperial Players would want to use in any army.
Really, there is a huge disconnect between the fluff and how a model actually works on the table top. That's why it's fluff, and means nothing to the actual game. So what if they bring back Sanguinius? It will be just another model to add to a collection or play with on the table. It's not the first time, nor will it be the last time GW has retcon'ed their narrative.
The whole thing about Sanguinius' death has always been that Horus obliterated his soul-essence. It's why the Emperor killed Horus the way that he did.
Unless the fluff has changed a lot, I don't think that bit is correct.
Horus killed Sanguinius, yes.
But it was the Emperor who obliterated Horus' soul when he saw how evil and completely corrupted Horus had become.
It some stories, isn't it right after Horus disintegrates...an Imperial Fist terminator, or something like that?
Anyway, the Emperor obliterates Horus even though Horus is able to, in some way, realize what he's done, show horror over it, and possibly even wants forgiveness. But the Big E erases him from existence nonetheless...
I remember somebody on this forum once speculating that Sanguinus could 'come back' by having the Black Rage so completely devour a Blood Angel that they literally became Sanguinus. I think that'd be a fine way to do it (and is kind of reminiscent of the Phoenix Lords, right?)
Melissia wrote: So I talked with someone who actually watched the devstream, and the way they explained it, the "Sanguinius is alive!" thing is wrong.
Sanguinius is dead. Deader than dead. His body is in stasis, never reaching rigor mortis and never rotting-- but he's still dead. People are taking the "his body is in stasis" thing out of context and assuming this means he's the same as Guilliman.
Shush, don't dare meddle in people's process into throwing a chimpout over already imagined and solved grievances originated from some austrian's poor grasp of the english language!
I know I know I know, inserting logic in to an emotional, irrational argument is bad.
There is no way in the seven hells GW is bringing back Sanguinius. The whole BA plot line is based on him seeing his futures, and determining the one that he died in was overall best for mankind. Even the black rage is based on him dying, and in almost every description of it, the marines afflicted feel as if they are dying. To address the point on what motivated the emperor more: what would motivate him? One of his sons, the most favoured in all of the imperium, the one that he just found out that Horus had killed, one of a unique twenty (or 18 for that matter) superhuman super super super soldiers, or some nobody in terminator armour that Horus probably killed thousands of. Sure it might be portrayed that way, but just look at the difference in significance.
lliu wrote: Just. To. Add. To. What. People. Said.
There is no way in the seven hells GW is bringing back Sanguinius. The whole BA plot line is based on him seeing his futures, and determining the one that he died in was overall best for mankind. Even the black rage is based on him dying, and in almost every description of it, the marines afflicted feel as if they are dying. To address the point on what motivated the emperor more: what would motivate him? One of his sons, the most favoured in all of the imperium, the one that he just found out that Horus had killed, one of a unique twenty (or 18 for that matter) superhuman super super super soldiers, or some nobody in terminator armour that Horus probably killed thousands of. Sure it might be portrayed that way, but just look at the difference in significance.
Yeah, that all makes sense.... *if* you ignore the money that a primarily models-based company could make on bringing back a model of one of *the* most badass, noble, relatable characters you could ever create! Hell, i would buy a sanguinius model (as long as it didn't have a potato for a face) and i'm actively boycotting gw until they get their game (sh*t) together. Your problem is focusing on the story, when there are profits to be made.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:I have just one question for the OP?
What's the proof? What's the situation? Where's the source?
This sounds like clickbait and baseless speculation.
I think Voss is right that this isn't true.
So Dakka is just a clickbait then?
I didn't say Dakka was clickbait. I said this thread is.
You've provided no source at all in your OP. How am I supposed to believe something without a source I can trust?
I wasn't giving out a rumour, so no need to believe.
That is where I read it from, the below quote.
AveImperator wrote:They stated that in the video that: "Sanguinus is in statis/bad shape state."
Did you watch the video yourself?
No I didn't watch the video. The link I gave you for your proof, showed me no video link, so didn't see it. I just read what he said.
What's your view then on the people who actually watched the stream, and confirm that GW said no such thing? How about the comment made a few posts after, saying
Not sure if you saw me quote the first person or was it the second in this thread, that I said "good to know".
Seriously, if I see a source where GW said that Sangy is ALIVE, I'll believe you, but considering plenty of people have said this isn't true, I don't think I believe you.
I am not giving out a rumour. I was commenting on something I read. So there is no need to believe me or not. I am not saying anything is true. Again, I even acknowledged this most likely is not true. So why are you harping on me for something I didn't even say?
Again, I am not giving a rumour, thought it was true, knew it is most likely not true now, but still good to discuss to see what people would think if GW did a recton like this.
lliu wrote: Just. To. Add. To. What. People. Said.
There is no way in the seven hells GW is bringing back Sanguinius. The whole BA plot line is based on him seeing his futures, and determining the one that he died in was overall best for mankind. Even the black rage is based on him dying, and in almost every description of it, the marines afflicted feel as if they are dying. To address the point on what motivated the emperor more: what would motivate him? One of his sons, the most favoured in all of the imperium, the one that he just found out that Horus had killed, one of a unique twenty (or 18 for that matter) superhuman super super super soldiers, or some nobody in terminator armour that Horus probably killed thousands of. Sure it might be portrayed that way, but just look at the difference in significance.
Yeah, that all makes sense.... *if* you ignore the money that a primarily models-based company could make on bringing back a model of one of *the* most badass, noble, relatable characters you could ever create! Hell, i would buy a sanguinius model (as long as it didn't have a potato for a face) and i'm actively boycotting gw until they get their game (sh*t) together. Your problem is focusing on the story, when there are profits to be made.
Yes and no, for me its the fluff that keeps me playing this game a good example of that is the novel The Betrayer, after that book I went out and dropped a lot of money bucks on a HH world eaters army, others play the game first and then go for the fluff, and yet again another set of people have no real interest in the fluff outside of the codex's, were a varied bunch.
I still say, IF he comes back it'll be warp bs version of him not miracle healing version. He'd most certainly be more along the lines of a living saint than boop I'm good, after all living saints are martyrs and he's the biggest one of the imperium.
And really, aside from Horus no one was obliterated and the warp can do some impressive crap. We have entire demon worlds that resurrect, what's the deal with a couple primarchs? Maybe they'll have real fun with it and the warp has been dangling the brutalized sanginius in front of the emperor's throne for the last 10k years mocking him and something changes the status quo.
lliu wrote: Just. To. Add. To. What. People. Said.
There is no way in the seven hells GW is bringing back Sanguinius. The whole BA plot line is based on him seeing his futures, and determining the one that he died in was overall best for mankind. Even the black rage is based on him dying, and in almost every description of it, the marines afflicted feel as if they are dying. To address the point on what motivated the emperor more: what would motivate him? One of his sons, the most favoured in all of the imperium, the one that he just found out that Horus had killed, one of a unique twenty (or 18 for that matter) superhuman super super super soldiers, or some nobody in terminator armour that Horus probably killed thousands of. Sure it might be portrayed that way, but just look at the difference in significance.
Yeah, that all makes sense.... *if* you ignore the money that a primarily models-based company could make on bringing back a model of one of *the* most badass, noble, relatable characters you could ever create! Hell, i would buy a sanguinius model (as long as it didn't have a potato for a face) and i'm actively boycotting gw until they get their game (sh*t) together. Your problem is focusing on the story, when there are profits to be made.
I will dispute that badass claim, since I play DA, but anyway... Sure, I mean it would sell, and sell well at that, but think about how much story they’d be shattering. I believe if you wanted wings, a Corax miniature is going to be as good (please don’t kill me BA players), and if you want most possible, the Lion is literally just taking a nap, with no mentioned death causing injuries. Combine that with the fact that literally two of the most iconic pieces of art are of dead sanguinius and the emprah, and dead aanguinius and the emprah mark 2, you have a very unprovable case. I’ll admit it, the model will sell well, but in the long run, look at general opinion. Most people in this forum are against it. GW does not become a multi-million dollar company from stupidity, just by spending 5 minutes to look at hobbyist opinion would show that not a lot of people like it. Overall I just don’t get why you could probably earn a comparable amount of money from any of the other Primarchs, without breaking the story...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and yeah geedubs has been pretty stupid these last few years but it’s getting better with Mr. Ruonyree.
Formosa wrote: Jesus, if they are so disconnected that they bring back Sanguinius I am done with the new 40k fluff, his death is so pivotal to the background of 40k and so important, I just could not accept this "deus ex" moment.
How is it pivotal to all 40k...
How do you not know?
Sanguinius sacrificed himself, knowing he could not win and was going to die, he wanted to hold back the darkness but had no chance in succeeding, yet still went, and even for all his nobility his sacrifice was in vain, that literally embodies the core theme of 40k grim darkness, that no matter who you are, or what you have done, Chaos will always win in the end, your just holding back the tide.
Now if he returns? Well anyone can, and his sacrifice meant nothing at all, you break one of the central tenets of 40k and the second biggest event in the psyche of the imperium (first being the emperors acention to the golden throne) the death of the emperors most noble son, sacrificing himself at the hands of the serpent (Horus).
I'm not gonna just the gun on this as I doubt even gw is stupid enough to try to pull this one off, but if they do the new 40k (8th ed) fluff is a total no go for me, it's almost universally a dumpster fire already, this would push it over the edge.
I wouldn't call that pivotal seeing as if he doesn't do that things don't change much.
It defines the setting well but pivotal it is not.
Then no offence you are wrong, had sanguinius not sacrificed himself the whole universe would be a totally different place, the Emperor would likely have died and Horus would have succeeded, that would then lead the extinction of the human race and the defeat of the chaos gods, that is as pivotal as it gets.
Well no. The Emperor would still have killed Horus and things would go exactly the same but at best Sanguinius still around. Sanguinius died a pointless death doing nothing.
lliu wrote: Just. To. Add. To. What. People. Said.
There is no way in the seven hells GW is bringing back Sanguinius. The whole BA plot line is based on him seeing his futures, and determining the one that he died in was overall best for mankind. Even the black rage is based on him dying, and in almost every description of it, the marines afflicted feel as if they are dying. To address the point on what motivated the emperor more: what would motivate him? One of his sons, the most favoured in all of the imperium, the one that he just found out that Horus had killed, one of a unique twenty (or 18 for that matter) superhuman super super super soldiers, or some nobody in terminator armour that Horus probably killed thousands of. Sure it might be portrayed that way, but just look at the difference in significance.
Yeah, that all makes sense.... *if* you ignore the money that a primarily models-based company could make on bringing back a model of one of *the* most badass, noble, relatable characters you could ever create! Hell, i would buy a sanguinius model (as long as it didn't have a potato for a face) and i'm actively boycotting gw until they get their game (sh*t) together. Your problem is focusing on the story, when there are profits to be made.
I will dispute that badass claim, since I play DA, but anyway... Sure, I mean it would sell, and sell well at that, but think about how much story they’d be shattering. I believe if you wanted wings, a Corax miniature is going to be as good (please don’t kill me BA players), and if you want most possible, the Lion is literally just taking a nap, with no mentioned death causing injuries. Combine that with the fact that literally two of the most iconic pieces of art are of dead sanguinius and the emprah, and dead aanguinius and the emprah mark 2, you have a very unprovable case. I’ll admit it, the model will sell well, but in the long run, look at general opinion. Most people in this forum are against it. GW does not become a multi-million dollar company from stupidity, just by spending 5 minutes to look at hobbyist opinion would show that not a lot of people like it. Overall I just don’t get why you could probably earn a comparable amount of money from any of the other Primarchs, without breaking the story...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and yeah geedubs has been pretty stupid these last few years but it’s getting better with Mr. Ruonyree.
You are still looking at this like the fluff/story matters. It doesn't. making/selling the best models in the world is GW's by-line. Secondary to that is the games it makes (they simply promote the models they sell), and the fluff written about those models (which is tertiary to making and selling models).
GW has made major retcons in the fluff before to introduce a new model into the game.
This is also a major opportunity for the company. They have a character with this incredible back story, that is the Primarch for one of the most popular legions, and is supposedly dead. Surprise! He's not dead, just mostly dead. Guess what? They did the exact same thing with Roubute Guiliman. And GW contrived this totally comic book reason for bringing back Bobby G. Why not do the same with Sangy? We'll never know how many Triumvirate of the Primarch GW has sold, but when just about every Space Marine player, and a fair amount of Imperial players has a Bobby G... well, it doesn't take much for someone to say "Well, it worked for Bobby G. Why can't we bring back Sangy? The fluff? That's tertiary to making and selling models. Retcon and let's do it!"
Wayniac wrote: I've heard this as well, that his body is in stasis and his soul is somewhere else, so if they were reunited he would be reborn. Honestly I find it a bit lame; I liked the old fluff where the loyal primarchs were akin to "tall tales" like Paul Bunyan; lots of myths and legends surrounding them and their deeds, but nobody is alive who really remembers the truth since it's had 10,000 years of Imperial Propaganda to be manipulated. Hell, I liked when the Horus Heresy was like that too before Forgeworld started to expand it and detail every bit; it was IMHO better as a legend from the far past that has a lot of various tales of what happened, any/none of which may or may not be true.
It's pretty clear they want to set up the "Big Four" loyalists versus the "Big Four" traitors. So Russ, Guilliman, Lion and Sanguinius versus Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim and Magnus s the big confrontation. Whether that means the others will come back as well or not is up to debate, but those ones are all but guaranteed (we already have two of the traitors actually available, and strong rumors of the other two coming in the future).
I think it's a little too comic book retcon-y for my taste. It removes a lot of the cool factor of the setting for the sake of putting out yet another likely overpowered model to milk sales. Remember, Sanguinius' death was basically the keystone of allowing the Emperor to kill Horus; he's the only primarch to have an imperial holiday to honor his sacrifice (the Sanguinala). If he comes back to life, does he still get the holiday? Wouldn't that cure the Black Rage since it's the psychic after-effect of his death i.e. no more Death Company?
The whole point of 40k and moving this storyline forward with the 13th Black Crusade was to show that mankind is facing the "End Times", and is on the brink of extinction but has to fight back. By bringing back primarchs, that is more akin to it moving away from that feeling of hopelessness on all sides and the forces of Chaos encroaching and into the realm of godlike heroes coming to save the Imperium, which grows stronger than ever before. It's really gakky storytelling IMHO.
So much this. The Horus Heresy books are the Star Wars prequels of 40k. In every comparable way.
I agree. I fell in love with WH40k in 1997. My friend and his step brother had all the 2nd ed rule books. They had epicast models and tons of eldar, space wolves and orks.
I became obsessed with the Primarchs and the mystery around them. I loved the idea of demi-gods striding upon the battlefields beside their sons. The mythos around them was perfect.
At that time there were only a few crappy epic models and a single picture of the Emperor vs Horus (plus Sanguinius). The descriptions of the Primarchs was perfectly vague and abstract. Magnus was a giant red cyclops, Mortarion was a pale, thin, brooding avatar of death, Alpherius was almost not even existent (with Omegan being years off).
Then Sabertooth Games made that awful card game that had depictions of Angron and others. Then came the Horus Heresy art books which completely and utterly destroyed any imagination around the Primarchs. (Personally I blame John Blanche for outright ruining the idea of the Primarchs with his ridiculous scribbilings).
I spent my college years working tirelessly to depict the Primarchs using what little scraps of information were available. When the "official" versions were released I was heartbroken.
Once upon a time I saw Magnus the Red like this...
Only to have Blanche come along and reveal this monstrosity...
Davor wrote: I wasn't giving out a rumour, so no need to believe.
No, you said something patently false.
Now that I am awake and just reread what I wrote, yeah I guess I did. I swear I added in the part of "I read it here on dakka" but got distracted, and left that part out. Oh well, not the first time it happened. Also I am sure you have made this mistake once or twice before. We are all not perfect.
Corrected now.
So I like to apologize to everyone in stating what I said. I didn't mean it to come out as a rumour. As I said, I got distracted when typing and forgot the number one rule that Games Workshop doesn't do and others here on the forums and proof read what we typed out.
Sorry everyone if I got you upset. It wasn't my intent at all but a discussion to discuss possible rectons.
Well no. The Emperor would still have killed Horus and things would go exactly the same but at best Sanguinius still around. Sanguinius died a pointless death doing nothing.
Yeah that's... that's not true at all. Horus killing Sanguinius is what convinces the Emperor that Horus is beyond redemption, it's the pivotal turning point that actually enables the Emperor to kill his son. Sanguinius' death is absolutely not pointless, it's one of the most important deaths, possibly the most important death, in the history of the 40K universe.
Well no. The Emperor would still have killed Horus and things would go exactly the same but at best Sanguinius still around. Sanguinius died a pointless death doing nothing.
Yeah that's... that's not true at all. Horus killing Sanguinius is what convinces the Emperor that Horus is beyond redemption, it's the pivotal turning point that actually enables the Emperor to kill his son. Sanguinius' death is absolutely not pointless, it's one of the most important deaths, possibly the most important death, in the history of the 40K universe.
Pretty much is. Horus kills Sanguinius. Emps walks in and fights him. Ollanius/Marine/Custodes/whoever it is nowadays walks in and gets casually killed by Horus. That's what makes Emps realise how far gone he is. The pivotal death is the ever changing Ollanius.
I agree. I fell in love with WH40k in 1997. My friend and his step brother had all the 2nd ed rule books. They had epicast models and tons of eldar, space wolves and orks.
I became obsessed with the Primarchs and the mystery around them. I loved the idea of demi-gods striding upon the battlefields beside their sons. The mythos around them was perfect.
At that time there were only a few crappy epic models and a single picture of the Emperor vs Horus (plus Sanguinius). The descriptions of the Primarchs was perfectly vague and abstract. Magnus was a giant red cyclops, Mortarion was a pale, thin, brooding avatar of death, Alpherius was almost not even existent (with Omegan being years off).
Then Sabertooth Games made that awful card game that had depictions of Angron and others. Then came the Horus Heresy art books which completely and utterly destroyed any imagination around the Primarchs. (Personally I blame John Blanche for outright ruining the idea of the Primarchs with his ridiculous scribbilings).
I spent my college years working tirelessly to depict the Primarchs using what little scraps of information were available. When the "official" versions were released I was heartbroken.
To be fair though, illustrations of several primarchs existed even back in the early days of 2nd Ed. Leman Russ looked like a pretty underwhelming regular Marine dude. He even had a (absolutely tiny) model.
Likewike, several traitor Primarchs had pretty craptastic models for Epic 40,000.
I mean, this was the time when GW wouldn't even shy away from showing the Chaos Gods themselves, in their supposedly true form...and they all looked like ugly elementary school drawings.
I agree that GW shouldn't cast as much light on the events of the Horus Heresy and ret-con things as they are doing with the HH series, but when it comes to the visual side of things, those legendary characters were hardly more mysterious back then than they are now.
fe40k wrote: You can either have your primarch on the tabletop, but have lore issues; or you can have your lore fine, but not primarch on the tabletop.
You can’t have both - you need to pick one.
And we all know that you’d rather have an op primarch since everyone else will have one, than no primarch at all.
You can call call him something else fluff wise.
I have never understand this. Why 40k needs for the character to be alive in the present timeline to have a playable model with rules? In Fantasy 70% of the Greenskins armybook special characters where historic characters that had died hundreds of years before the present timeline of the setting. Heck, in 40k you have that with Aun'va, for example. They could totally do a model of Sanguinius for 40k without him being alive.
They could use that to make cool models of Solar Macharius for example, or other historic figures from the 31K-39K period.
That would be 30k model. Sang never was alive for 40k to be historical model. That would be the upcoming 30k sanq&his rules.
Well no. The Emperor would still have killed Horus and things would go exactly the same but at best Sanguinius still around. Sanguinius died a pointless death doing nothing.
Yeah that's... that's not true at all. Horus killing Sanguinius is what convinces the Emperor that Horus is beyond redemption, it's the pivotal turning point that actually enables the Emperor to kill his son. Sanguinius' death is absolutely not pointless, it's one of the most important deaths, possibly the most important death, in the history of the 40K universe.
Is that a retcon? In Bill King's story, it's Horus obliterating an Imperial Fists terminator that shows the Emperor that Horus is no longer his son. Sanguinius is ... just set dressing.
Well no. The Emperor would still have killed Horus and things would go exactly the same but at best Sanguinius still around. Sanguinius died a pointless death doing nothing.
Yeah that's... that's not true at all. Horus killing Sanguinius is what convinces the Emperor that Horus is beyond redemption, it's the pivotal turning point that actually enables the Emperor to kill his son. Sanguinius' death is absolutely not pointless, it's one of the most important deaths, possibly the most important death, in the history of the 40K universe.
Is that a retcon? In Bill King's story, it's Horus obliterating an Imperial Fists terminator that shows the Emperor that Horus is no longer his son. Sanguinius is ... just set dressing.
The person who gets obliterated keeps on changing. To my knowledge it's been a Guardsmen called Ollanius, a terminator, a Custodes and a Perpetual (Ollanius again).
Well no. The Emperor would still have killed Horus and things would go exactly the same but at best Sanguinius still around. Sanguinius died a pointless death doing nothing.
Yeah that's... that's not true at all. Horus killing Sanguinius is what convinces the Emperor that Horus is beyond redemption, it's the pivotal turning point that actually enables the Emperor to kill his son. Sanguinius' death is absolutely not pointless, it's one of the most important deaths, possibly the most important death, in the history of the 40K universe.
Is that a retcon? In Bill King's story, it's Horus obliterating an Imperial Fists terminator that shows the Emperor that Horus is no longer his son. Sanguinius is ... just set dressing.
The person who gets obliterated keeps on changing. To my knowledge it's been a Guardsmen called Ollanius, a terminator, a Custodes and a Perpetual (Ollanius again).
Almost as if it was an almost mythical event that happened in a time before the franchise's present timeline with a gap of which is longer than recorded human history so far and the details are little sketchy? Say it isn't so!
But no, GW will insist on showing us what Ollanius Pious had for breakfast the morning of the Siege of Terra. Because. Every. Minute. Detail. Has to covered in an almost pornographic fashion.
Well no. The Emperor would still have killed Horus and things would go exactly the same but at best Sanguinius still around. Sanguinius died a pointless death doing nothing.
Yeah that's... that's not true at all. Horus killing Sanguinius is what convinces the Emperor that Horus is beyond redemption, it's the pivotal turning point that actually enables the Emperor to kill his son. Sanguinius' death is absolutely not pointless, it's one of the most important deaths, possibly the most important death, in the history of the 40K universe.
Is that a retcon? In Bill King's story, it's Horus obliterating an Imperial Fists terminator that shows the Emperor that Horus is no longer his son. Sanguinius is ... just set dressing.
First story, it was a guardsman, then it was a terminator, then a custodes, then a guardsman, then olanius pius again, the Ol person (same fella)
And frankly anyone who keeps saying Sanguinius's sacrifice is meaningless and pointless, really does not understand the magnitude of an immortal creature giving up eternity in a fight he knows he cannot possibly win, just to give his father a fighting chance
We have no idea how Sanguinius died.
'The Warmaster bestrides the body of a broken angel. Behind him the tortured earth fills the viewport, a bauble for Horus to seize with one clawed hand. Corpses of massacred Marines lie everywhere.
Face glowing with internal bloodlight. Horus speaks. "Poor Sanguinius. I offered him a position of power in the new order. He could have sat at the right hand of a god. Alas he chose to align himself with the losing side." '
That's it. Did Sanguinius die defiantly? beg for mercy? All we know is that he declined to change sides. There's no indication that he knew what had happened to the Emperor when Horus brought him to his throne room.
(I'm vaguely aware of some retcon that Sanguinius managed to damage Horus' armour which created a weak spot for the Emperor to exploit; I haven't got that version of the story, so I don't know if that's supposed to be a deliberate action on Sanguinius' part.)
I must be missing some versions; the original version of Ollanius Pious is only from the caption of a John Blanche painting of Imperial Guard charging into battle, with Ollanius Pious on their banner. Then there was Bill King's story with the terminator. Then the retconned version of that story from Collected Vision which literally replaced the words "Imperial Fists Terminator" with Adeptus Custodes" and changed nothing else. You appear to know of two further versions?
Methinks the original story, the one with the guardsman called Ollanius Pious, was when the final confrontation between Emps and Horus took place inside the Imperial Palace on Earth. They later changed the place of the battle to Horus' capital ship, and hence changed the person in question from a guardsman to a terminator and later to a Custodes because frankly, why would some minor guardsman even be there? The most up-to-date version seems to be that it will be Ollanius Pious the Perpetual who has already been introduced in the HH series.
Personally, I always thought that the notion of a simple mortal guardsman, called Pious no less, defying Horus was some nice in-universe Imperial propaganda but not what had actually happened.
On the other hand, it makes more sense that the Emperor witnessing Horus ripping apart a weak, frail human who had no chance of harming him in an way with no sign of remorse was the last straw that convinced Emps that Horus was beyond salvation. I mean, what is so horrible about a superhuman Primarch defeating an also superhuman Custodes in battle and killing him? Not much, really.
Well no. The Emperor would still have killed Horus and things would go exactly the same but at best Sanguinius still around. Sanguinius died a pointless death doing nothing.
Yeah that's... that's not true at all. Horus killing Sanguinius is what convinces the Emperor that Horus is beyond redemption, it's the pivotal turning point that actually enables the Emperor to kill his son. Sanguinius' death is absolutely not pointless, it's one of the most important deaths, possibly the most important death, in the history of the 40K universe.
Is that a retcon? In Bill King's story, it's Horus obliterating an Imperial Fists terminator that shows the Emperor that Horus is no longer his son. Sanguinius is ... just set dressing.
First story, it was a guardsman, then it was a terminator, then a custodes, then a guardsman, then olanius pius again, the Ol person (same fella)
And frankly anyone who keeps saying Sanguinius's sacrifice is meaningless and pointless, really does not understand the magnitude of an immortal creature giving up eternity in a fight he knows he cannot possibly win, just to give his father a fighting chance
Except he isn't immortal, didn't help his father at all so his sacrifice didn't achieve much. Except cursing the Blood Angels.
I'm not going to argue that Sanguinius wasn't a pretty noble and heroic character but his end wasn't a great sacrifice or anything. I think that's pretty defining for the 40k setting - One of the greatest heroes of the fledgling Imperium going into battle with one of the most powerful servants of Chaos and dying. But even though the great hero fell the Imperium carries on fighting for survival. It's basically a summary of Mankind - You get heroes rising and falling in and endless battle for survival but whether or not they succeed in their goals Humanity survives.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Esmer wrote: Methinks the original story, the one with the guardsman called Ollanius Pious, was when the final confrontation between Emps and Horus took place inside the Imperial Palace on Earth. They later changed the place of the battle to Horus' capital ship, and hence changed the person in question from a guardsman to a terminator and later to a Custodes because frankly, why would some minor guardsman even be there? The most up-to-date version seems to be that it will be Ollanius Pious the Perpetual who has already been introduced in the HH series.
Personally, I always thought that the notion of a simple mortal guardsman, called Pious no less, defying Horus was some nice in-universe Imperial propaganda but not what had actually happened.
I was always a fan of the idea of a lone Guardsmen walking in on the battle between Horus and the Emperor, seeing these titanic godlike being battling and still trying to help.
I was always a fan of the idea of a lone Guardsmen walking in on the battle between Horus and the Emperor, seeing these titanic godlike being battling and still trying to help.
The issue is not so much with the idea in general (in fact, the idea of "Emps gives up on saving Horus after witnessing him commiting such an atrocious act" works far better with the guardsman than with the terminator/Custodes) but with the technicalities. Like, what was this average Joe even doing there? How did he manage to get aboard Horus' flagship, stay alive/sane for more than some split seconds and reach Horus' command bridge?
AndrewGPaul wrote: We have no idea how Sanguinius died.
'The Warmaster bestrides the body of a broken angel. Behind him the tortured earth fills the viewport, a bauble for Horus to seize with one clawed hand. Corpses of massacred Marines lie everywhere.
Face glowing with internal bloodlight. Horus speaks. "Poor Sanguinius. I offered him a position of power in the new order. He could have sat at the right hand of a god. Alas he chose to align himself with the losing side." '
That's it. Did Sanguinius die defiantly? beg for mercy? All we know is that he declined to change sides. There's no indication that he knew what had happened to the Emperor when Horus brought him to his throne room.
(I'm vaguely aware of some retcon that Sanguinius managed to damage Horus' armour which created a weak spot for the Emperor to exploit; I haven't got that version of the story, so I don't know if that's supposed to be a deliberate action on Sanguinius' part.)
I must be missing some versions; the original version of Ollanius Pious is only from the caption of a John Blanche painting of Imperial Guard charging into battle, with Ollanius Pious on their banner. Then there was Bill King's story with the terminator. Then the retconned version of that story from Collected Vision which literally replaced the words "Imperial Fists Terminator" with Adeptus Custodes" and changed nothing else. You appear to know of two further versions?
there are not 2 further version, there is one that was expanded upon, Ol person is Olanius pius, his mates used to call him "Ol the Pius" its in know no Fear.
I was always a fan of the idea of a lone Guardsmen walking in on the battle between Horus and the Emperor, seeing these titanic godlike being battling and still trying to help.
The issue is not so much with the idea in general (in fact, the idea of "Emps gives up on saving Horus after witnessing him commiting such an atrocious act" works far better with the guardsman than with the terminator/Custodes) but with the technicalities. Like, what was this average Joe even doing there? How did he manage to get aboard Horus' flagship, stay alive/sane for more than some split seconds and reach Horus' command bridge?
That's pretty easy to explain. It was a last chance attack to stop Horus so you may as well take everyone you have including the random Guardsmen and as for getting that far then if you send enough Guardsmen at a problem then someone is bound to make it.
Well no. The Emperor would still have killed Horus and things would go exactly the same but at best Sanguinius still around. Sanguinius died a pointless death doing nothing.
Yeah that's... that's not true at all. Horus killing Sanguinius is what convinces the Emperor that Horus is beyond redemption, it's the pivotal turning point that actually enables the Emperor to kill his son. Sanguinius' death is absolutely not pointless, it's one of the most important deaths, possibly the most important death, in the history of the 40K universe.
Is that a retcon? In Bill King's story, it's Horus obliterating an Imperial Fists terminator that shows the Emperor that Horus is no longer his son. Sanguinius is ... just set dressing.
First story, it was a guardsman, then it was a terminator, then a custodes, then a guardsman, then olanius pius again, the Ol person (same fella)
And frankly anyone who keeps saying Sanguinius's sacrifice is meaningless and pointless, really does not understand the magnitude of an immortal creature giving up eternity in a fight he knows he cannot possibly win, just to give his father a fighting chance
Except he isn't immortal, didn't help his father at all so his sacrifice didn't achieve much. Except cursing the Blood Angels.
I'm not going to argue that Sanguinius wasn't a pretty noble and heroic character but his end wasn't a great sacrifice or anything. I think that's pretty defining for the 40k setting - One of the greatest heroes of the fledgling Imperium going into battle with one of the most powerful servants of Chaos and dying. But even though the great hero fell the Imperium carries on fighting for survival. It's basically a summary of Mankind - You get heroes rising and falling in and endless battle for survival but whether or not they succeed in their goals Humanity survives.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Esmer wrote: Methinks the original story, the one with the guardsman called Ollanius Pious, was when the final confrontation between Emps and Horus took place inside the Imperial Palace on Earth. They later changed the place of the battle to Horus' capital ship, and hence changed the person in question from a guardsman to a terminator and later to a Custodes because frankly, why would some minor guardsman even be there? The most up-to-date version seems to be that it will be Ollanius Pious the Perpetual who has already been introduced in the HH series.
Personally, I always thought that the notion of a simple mortal guardsman, called Pious no less, defying Horus was some nice in-universe Imperial propaganda but not what had actually happened.
I was always a fan of the idea of a lone Guardsmen walking in on the battle between Horus and the Emperor, seeing these titanic godlike being battling and still trying to help.
All the primarchs are immortal, unless they are killed in some manner, and yes he did help his father, he fought and died for him, creating a chink in Horus's armour (I think this is an analogy for "doubt" not a literal rip in his armour).
And I also prefer the lone guardsman fighting against all odds.
Vulkan is immortal. The rest aren't. If they were immortal then they couldn't be killed. He fought and didn't do anything. The attack that killed Horus utterly destroyed his soul beyond any recovery. A chink in armour isn't going to help that nor is doubt. That kind of attack was going to kill whatever it hit.
Except he isn't immortal, didn't help his father at all so his sacrifice didn't achieve much. Except cursing the Blood Angels.
Yeah well obviously he could be killed and the way they were set up to be warriors yes guess it\s inevitable sooner or later he will be killed but if nobody kills a primarch he would live forever.
So guess "immortal provided he doesn't get killed in combat" would be more accurate but more of a mouthful
Living endlessly until killed isn't special for Warhammer though. It applies to all Dark Eldar and arguably Eldar and Space Marines depending on how living is counted and if you consider Marines immune to age.
pm713 wrote: Vulkan is immortal. The rest aren't. If they were immortal then they couldn't be killed. He fought and didn't do anything. The attack that killed Horus utterly destroyed his soul beyond any recovery. A chink in armour isn't going to help that nor is doubt. That kind of attack was going to kill whatever it hit.
Please stop being so fething obtuse. You are aware there are two types of immortality in the fantasy genre? There is the "cannot be killed" type 1, which Vulkan is, and there is the "ageless being" type 2 like the rest of the Primarchs are.
Elves in LOTR are described as "immortal", they are type 2.
I was always a fan of the idea of a lone Guardsmen walking in on the battle between Horus and the Emperor, seeing these titanic godlike being battling and still trying to help.
The issue is not so much with the idea in general (in fact, the idea of "Emps gives up on saving Horus after witnessing him commiting such an atrocious act" works far better with the guardsman than with the terminator/Custodes) but with the technicalities. Like, what was this average Joe even doing there? How did he manage to get aboard Horus' flagship, stay alive/sane for more than some split seconds and reach Horus' command bridge?
That's pretty easy to explain. It was a last chance attack to stop Horus so you may as well take everyone you have including the random Guardsmen and as for getting that far then if you send enough Guardsmen at a problem then someone is bound to make it.
Sadly that story is very predictable, Ol person gets sent to the Vengful spirit through some warp dickery, shuts of the shields to allow the Emp on board, he has seen plenty of chaos in his 41 thousand years (he remembers jason and the golden fleece) so the insane crap will likely just unnerve him, he gets to the bridge, see's the Big E on his knees, thinks "feth it, ive lived long enough and cant let Horus win" and charges Horus firing his good old lasgun, Horus Blats him, Big E recognises Ol person, maybe they were frat buddies or something, gets pissed and mind bullets Horus to mega Dead Dead.
While on the Subject, If Sangy can come back through handwavium, so can Ferrus, Horus, Alpharius and Omegon (whichever Dorn/Guilliman killed), Aun'Va, Shadowsun (she would have died of old age in the current timeline), Lord Solar macharius, Sebastian Thor, Goge Vandire and many many more, lets just revive all these important characters !!!!!! feth the fluff!!!!
I was always a fan of the idea of a lone Guardsmen walking in on the battle between Horus and the Emperor, seeing these titanic godlike being battling and still trying to help.
The issue is not so much with the idea in general (in fact, the idea of "Emps gives up on saving Horus after witnessing him commiting such an atrocious act" works far better with the guardsman than with the terminator/Custodes) but with the technicalities. Like, what was this average Joe even doing there? How did he manage to get aboard Horus' flagship, stay alive/sane for more than some split seconds and reach Horus' command bridge?
That's pretty easy to explain. It was a last chance attack to stop Horus so you may as well take everyone you have including the random Guardsmen and as for getting that far then if you send enough Guardsmen at a problem then someone is bound to make it.
Sadly that story is very predictable, Ol person gets sent to the Vengful spirit through some warp dickery, shuts of the shields to allow the Emp on board, he has seen plenty of chaos in his 41 thousand years (he remembers jason and the golden fleece) so the insane crap will likely just unnerve him, he gets to the bridge, see's the Big E on his knees, thinks "feth it, ive lived long enough and cant let Horus win" and charges Horus firing his good old lasgun, Horus Blats him, Big E recognises Ol person, maybe they were frat buddies or something, gets pissed and mind bullets Horus to mega Dead Dead.
While on the Subject, If Sangy can come back through handwavium, so can Ferrus, Horus, Alpharius and Omegon (whichever Dorn/Guilliman killed), Aun'Va, Shadowsun (she would have died of old age in the current timeline), Lord Solar macharius, Sebastian Thor, Goge Vandire and many many more, lets just revive all these important characters !!!!!! feth the fluff!!!!
That's a bad story right there. There's not really a reason for that much plot aid.
I remember when someone dying in the history of Warhammer meant being dead.
pm713 wrote: Vulkan is immortal. The rest aren't. If they were immortal then they couldn't be killed. He fought and didn't do anything. The attack that killed Horus utterly destroyed his soul beyond any recovery. A chink in armour isn't going to help that nor is doubt. That kind of attack was going to kill whatever it hit.
You are letting our country down with a lack of understanding of our language
one of the meanings of the word Immortal
"not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting."
And just in case you still fail to understand the what that means
one of the meanings of the word Liable
"likely to do or to be something"
and just to hammer the point home, one meaning of the word Likely
"such as well might happen or be true; probable."
So Immortal can and does mean totally undying, but it also means other things, so as the other poster said, stop being obtuse, because you are wrong.
I agree. I fell in love with WH40k in 1997. My friend and his step brother had all the 2nd ed rule books. They had epicast models and tons of eldar, space wolves and orks.
I became obsessed with the Primarchs and the mystery around them. I loved the idea of demi-gods striding upon the battlefields beside their sons. The mythos around them was perfect.
At that time there were only a few crappy epic models and a single picture of the Emperor vs Horus (plus Sanguinius). The descriptions of the Primarchs was perfectly vague and abstract. Magnus was a giant red cyclops, Mortarion was a pale, thin, brooding avatar of death, Alpherius was almost not even existent (with Omegan being years off).
Then Sabertooth Games made that awful card game that had depictions of Angron and others. Then came the Horus Heresy art books which completely and utterly destroyed any imagination around the Primarchs. (Personally I blame John Blanche for outright ruining the idea of the Primarchs with his ridiculous scribbilings).
I spent my college years working tirelessly to depict the Primarchs using what little scraps of information were available. When the "official" versions were released I was heartbroken.
To be fair though, illustrations of several primarchs existed even back in the early days of 2nd Ed. Leman Russ looked like a pretty underwhelming regular Marine dude. He even had a (absolutely tiny) model.
Likewike, several traitor Primarchs had pretty craptastic models for Epic 40,000.
I mean, this was the time when GW wouldn't even shy away from showing the Chaos Gods themselves, in their supposedly true form...and they all looked like ugly elementary school drawings.
I agree that GW shouldn't cast as much light on the events of the Horus Heresy and ret-con things as they are doing with the HH series, but when it comes to the visual side of things, those legendary characters were hardly more mysterious back then than they are now.
Where in the 2nd ed books are the Primarchs shown? I don't recall. I'll have to take another look tonight.
That Leman Russ art from Rogue Trader was an "Imperial Commander" not a primarch. His old model was more of a Ragnar Blackmane prototype. There was also Bobby G too but it was more of a decorative collectors model.
I mentioned the Epic models but those were daemon primarchs not preheresy.
Yeah the old art was terrible. I can't remember but judging by how awful they were I'd guess they were by John "how the hell is this guy the art director?" Blanche.
pm713 wrote: Vulkan is immortal. The rest aren't. If they were immortal then they couldn't be killed. He fought and didn't do anything. The attack that killed Horus utterly destroyed his soul beyond any recovery. A chink in armour isn't going to help that nor is doubt. That kind of attack was going to kill whatever it hit.
You are letting our country down with a lack of understanding of our language
one of the meanings of the word Immortal
"not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting."
And just in case you still fail to understand the what that means
one of the meanings of the word Liable
"likely to do or to be something"
and just to hammer the point home, one meaning of the word Likely
"such as well might happen or be true; probable."
So Immortal can and does mean totally undying, but it also means other things, so as the other poster said, stop being obtuse, because you are wrong.
Right fine. Whatever Lovely as it is to watch people copy word definitions it doesn't change you being completely wrong.
pm713 wrote: Vulkan is immortal. The rest aren't. If they were immortal then they couldn't be killed. He fought and didn't do anything. The attack that killed Horus utterly destroyed his soul beyond any recovery. A chink in armour isn't going to help that nor is doubt. That kind of attack was going to kill whatever it hit.
You are letting our country down with a lack of understanding of our language
one of the meanings of the word Immortal
"not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting."
And just in case you still fail to understand the what that means
one of the meanings of the word Liable
"likely to do or to be something"
and just to hammer the point home, one meaning of the word Likely
"such as well might happen or be true; probable."
So Immortal can and does mean totally undying, but it also means other things, so as the other poster said, stop being obtuse, because you are wrong.
Right fine. Whatever Lovely as it is to watch people copy word definitions it doesn't change you being completely wrong.
I have
A: The English language on my side.
B: The fluff of the game backing me up.
You have.... what? your opinion? I mean thats fine and all that, but it doesnt make you right, especially after you have been show to be utterly wrong, but no, I'm wrong "because you said so" good job.
pm713 wrote: Vulkan is immortal. The rest aren't. If they were immortal then they couldn't be killed. He fought and didn't do anything. The attack that killed Horus utterly destroyed his soul beyond any recovery. A chink in armour isn't going to help that nor is doubt. That kind of attack was going to kill whatever it hit.
You are letting our country down with a lack of understanding of our language
one of the meanings of the word Immortal
"not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting."
And just in case you still fail to understand the what that means
one of the meanings of the word Liable
"likely to do or to be something"
and just to hammer the point home, one meaning of the word Likely
"such as well might happen or be true; probable."
So Immortal can and does mean totally undying, but it also means other things, so as the other poster said, stop being obtuse, because you are wrong.
Right fine. Whatever Lovely as it is to watch people copy word definitions it doesn't change you being completely wrong.
I have
A: The English language on my side.
B: The fluff of the game backing me up.
You have.... what? your opinion? I mean thats fine and all that, but it doesnt make you right, especially after you have been show to be utterly wrong, but no, I'm wrong "because you said so" good job.
You have neither of those things. Neither of those made Sanguinius's death worth anything. Like your sidetrack about the meaning of immortality it's meaningless. But at least you get to be pedantic about immortality. That was super fun!
I think I would completely abandon the whole concept of 40k, especially since I already have 30k, why play 2 basically identical settings. If I wanted primarchs I would just play 30k. I dont see why a "Story" has to progress when its just a setting for wargames to be played. Its not like anything that happens on my table matters in the slightest to the setting overall.
pm713 wrote: Vulkan is immortal. The rest aren't. If they were immortal then they couldn't be killed. He fought and didn't do anything. The attack that killed Horus utterly destroyed his soul beyond any recovery. A chink in armour isn't going to help that nor is doubt. That kind of attack was going to kill whatever it hit.
You are letting our country down with a lack of understanding of our language
one of the meanings of the word Immortal
"not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting."
And just in case you still fail to understand the what that means
one of the meanings of the word Liable
"likely to do or to be something"
and just to hammer the point home, one meaning of the word Likely
"such as well might happen or be true; probable."
So Immortal can and does mean totally undying, but it also means other things, so as the other poster said, stop being obtuse, because you are wrong.
Right fine. Whatever Lovely as it is to watch people copy word definitions it doesn't change you being completely wrong.
I have
A: The English language on my side.
B: The fluff of the game backing me up.
You have.... what? your opinion? I mean thats fine and all that, but it doesnt make you right, especially after you have been show to be utterly wrong, but no, I'm wrong "because you said so" good job.
You have neither of those things. Neither of those made Sanguinius's death worth anything. Like your sidetrack about the meaning of immortality it's meaningless. But at least you get to be pedantic about immortality. That was super fun!
Wow.... I mean wow, "niether of those things" I literally have the dictionary definition and you are saying its wrong.... wow Tell you what, when you compile a lexicon of any language, I will go with what you are saying on it yeah?
Look, your wrong, just admit it, there is no shame in owning up to not understanding a word properly (I do it all the time), its not pedantry, you made a claim that primarchs were not immortal, and I showed you they are by its very definition.
And its not a sidetrack, your opinion is that his death means nothing, in spite of him being worshipped across the imperium, in spite of being told that he fought and likely weakened Horus, in spite of being told that without his death the Emperor would likely not found the will to kill Horus, in spite being told that had Horus won that the entire human race and chaos gods would have died out (Ref: Legion), in spite of all these things, you still.... think you are right....
pm713 wrote: Vulkan is immortal. The rest aren't. If they were immortal then they couldn't be killed. He fought and didn't do anything. The attack that killed Horus utterly destroyed his soul beyond any recovery. A chink in armour isn't going to help that nor is doubt. That kind of attack was going to kill whatever it hit.
You are letting our country down with a lack of understanding of our language
one of the meanings of the word Immortal
"not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting."
And just in case you still fail to understand the what that means
one of the meanings of the word Liable
"likely to do or to be something"
and just to hammer the point home, one meaning of the word Likely
"such as well might happen or be true; probable."
So Immortal can and does mean totally undying, but it also means other things, so as the other poster said, stop being obtuse, because you are wrong.
Right fine. Whatever Lovely as it is to watch people copy word definitions it doesn't change you being completely wrong.
I have
A: The English language on my side.
B: The fluff of the game backing me up.
You have.... what? your opinion? I mean thats fine and all that, but it doesnt make you right, especially after you have been show to be utterly wrong, but no, I'm wrong "because you said so" good job.
You have neither of those things. Neither of those made Sanguinius's death worth anything. Like your sidetrack about the meaning of immortality it's meaningless. But at least you get to be pedantic about immortality. That was super fun!
Wow.... I mean wow, "niether of those things" I literally have the dictionary definition and you are saying its wrong.... wow Tell you what, when you compile a lexicon of any language, I will go with what you are saying on it yeah?
Look, your wrong, just admit it, there is no shame in owning up to not understanding a word properly (I do it all the time), its not pedantry, you made a claim that primarchs were not immortal, and I showed you they are by its very definition.
And its not a sidetrack, your opinion is that his death means nothing, in spite of him being worshipped across the imperium, in spite of being told that he fought and likely weakened Horus, in spite of being told that without his death the Emperor would likely not found the will to kill Horus, in spite being told that had Horus won that the entire human race and chaos gods would have died out (Ref: Legion), in spite of all these things, you still.... think you are right....
Hooooooly feth. You are dense. Neither of those things support the point about Sanguinius's death being pivotal. Like I said. I am talking English. You are talking moron.
Well being worshipped applies to any Loyalist Primarch regardless of them dying and he hardly weakened Horus.
You told me the stuff about Sanguinius being the reason the Emperor killed Horus and like I said that's still wrong. Unless we can make things true by saying them in which case the Emperor found the strength to kill Horus because the clock reach 07:33 and the Emperor gets a power refresh then.
Well being worshipped applies to any Loyalist Primarch regardless of them dying and he hardly weakened Horus.
Um, no it doesn't. Sangy is the only Primarch called out by name (in the 2nd ed. Codex Imperialis IIRC) who has temples to him and is worshiped just like the Emperor across the Imperium. no other Primarch has this honour.
Well being worshipped applies to any Loyalist Primarch regardless of them dying and he hardly weakened Horus.
Um, no it doesn't. Sangy is the only Primarch called out by name (in the 2nd ed. Codex Imperialis IIRC) who has temples to him and is worshiped just like the Emperor across the Imperium. no other Primarch has this honour.
Roboute has a shrine in a temple. Or is that not counting?
pm713 wrote: Vulkan is immortal. The rest aren't. If they were immortal then they couldn't be killed. He fought and didn't do anything. The attack that killed Horus utterly destroyed his soul beyond any recovery. A chink in armour isn't going to help that nor is doubt. That kind of attack was going to kill whatever it hit.
You are letting our country down with a lack of understanding of our language
one of the meanings of the word Immortal
"not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting."
And just in case you still fail to understand the what that means
one of the meanings of the word Liable
"likely to do or to be something"
and just to hammer the point home, one meaning of the word Likely
"such as well might happen or be true; probable."
So Immortal can and does mean totally undying, but it also means other things, so as the other poster said, stop being obtuse, because you are wrong.
Right fine. Whatever Lovely as it is to watch people copy word definitions it doesn't change you being completely wrong.
I have
A: The English language on my side.
B: The fluff of the game backing me up.
You have.... what? your opinion? I mean thats fine and all that, but it doesnt make you right, especially after you have been show to be utterly wrong, but no, I'm wrong "because you said so" good job.
You have neither of those things. Neither of those made Sanguinius's death worth anything. Like your sidetrack about the meaning of immortality it's meaningless. But at least you get to be pedantic about immortality. That was super fun!
Wow.... I mean wow, "niether of those things" I literally have the dictionary definition and you are saying its wrong.... wow Tell you what, when you compile a lexicon of any language, I will go with what you are saying on it yeah?
Look, your wrong, just admit it, there is no shame in owning up to not understanding a word properly (I do it all the time), its not pedantry, you made a claim that primarchs were not immortal, and I showed you they are by its very definition.
And its not a sidetrack, your opinion is that his death means nothing, in spite of him being worshipped across the imperium, in spite of being told that he fought and likely weakened Horus, in spite of being told that without his death the Emperor would likely not found the will to kill Horus, in spite being told that had Horus won that the entire human race and chaos gods would have died out (Ref: Legion), in spite of all these things, you still.... think you are right....
Hooooooly feth. You are dense. Neither of those things support the point about Sanguinius's death being pivotal. Like I said. I am talking English. You are talking moron.
Well being worshipped applies to any Loyalist Primarch regardless of them dying and he hardly weakened Horus.
You told me the stuff about Sanguinius being the reason the Emperor killed Horus and like I said that's still wrong. Unless we can make things true by saying them in which case the Emperor found the strength to kill Horus because the clock reach 07:33 and the Emperor gets a power refresh then.
So dense I know what words mean and you dont? mmmmkay, you keep up the good work there slugger.
and no, not every loyalist primarch is worshipped, they are all venerated as demi gods and the sons of the Emperor, only Sanguinius is worshipped in the same manner as the Emperor (imperium wide, some worlds may worship the primarchs).
Yes he weakened Horus, to what degree is debatable of course, and yes of course Sanguinius is the reason the Emperor killed Horus, but not the ONLY reason, now who is being dense
Well being worshipped applies to any Loyalist Primarch regardless of them dying and he hardly weakened Horus.
Um, no it doesn't. Sangy is the only Primarch called out by name (in the 2nd ed. Codex Imperialis IIRC) who has temples to him and is worshiped just like the Emperor across the Imperium. no other Primarch has this honour.
Roboute has a shrine in a temple. Or is that not counting?
I predict Sanguinius is coming back. I have said this since they brought back Guilliman.
There simply is no other option for GW. To maintain a degree of equality all SM codices must have access to a Primarch, and Sanguinius is the only Primarch the BA have. This means we are likely going to see Guilliman, Russ, the Lion and Sanguinius as loyalist Primarchs.
It is not like GW respects the fluff when it comes to selling characters. According to the fluff, all Tau characters should have died of old age by now. Yet it seems they are still around. They will just write new fluff about how they somehow found a way to resurrect Sanguinius (which could either be epic or total bollocks depending on how they handle it). There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth here on Dakka about it, but the impact will be softened by the model being epic and having amazing rules and eventually people will just accept the new fluff and go along.
BaconCatBug wrote: If they retconed Sangy Boi and FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFETHING HORUS I'd genuinely consider packing it in for good.
The ENTIRE CLIMAX of the Horus Heresy is that Sangy Sacrificed Himself For Realsies No Takebacks. Remove that and they ruin the entire setting.
I know what you’re thinking, but Vengeful Spirit was merely a setback!
Reviving Sanguinius as a Chaos Primarch with a big green gem in his chest sustaining him only to immediately kill him again is probably the best way to piss off the most people possible. I approve!
pm713 wrote: I wouldn't call that pivotal seeing as if he doesn't do that things don't change much.
It defines the setting well but pivotal it is not.
Seeing what Horus did to Sanguinius is what gets the Emperor to take off the gloves and actually finish Horus. Without that it's quite possible that Horus kills the Emperor. No warp travel for humans, no keeping the broken portal in the basement closed so terra is now the centre of another eye of terror. The Imperium no longer exists. Pretty pivotal.
WH40K is no better written than any comic book fiction, and they have people coming back from the dead all the time. Bring back the Primarchs. Heck, bring back the Emperor while you're at it. It doesn't matter as long as there's drama. It's the drama that sells.
Besides, you've got souls, the warp, and space magic, so bringing someone back from the dead isn't even a stretch. Celestine comes back from the dead four times before breakfast.
BaconCatBug wrote: If they retconed Sangy Boi and FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFETHING HORUS I'd genuinely consider packing it in for good.
The ENTIRE CLIMAX of the Horus Heresy is that Sangy Sacrificed Himself For Realsies No Takebacks. Remove that and they ruin the entire setting.
I know what you’re thinking, but Vengeful Spirit was merely a setback!
Reviving Sanguinius as a Chaos Primarch with a big green gem in his chest sustaining him only to immediately kill him again is probably the best way to piss off the most people possible. I approve!
Sanguinius, a Daemon Primarch of Khorne and Slaanesh. I can see it.
Probably mentioned previously in this thread, especially given it's been mentioned across various forums but wouldn't the best (and considered most likely) contender for a more solid feature be The Sanguinor being around on a more permanent basis?
This would seem quite befitting in lieu of recent events within 8th edition.
Roboute was a stretch for me but I can look passed it, Sanguinius would be a step too far but on the flip side it wouldn't drive me away from the game.
The current events in 8th edition open up a lot more freedom for GW and potentially more supplements. Who's to say that The Great Khan won't come back from his hunt to assist his brothers? Or various other primarchs who decided to go off for the ultimate tourist experience?
Or the return of those primarchs who have since ascended to daemonhood? 8th gives GW a lot more room to play with but unfortunately it looks as though the loyalists have a weaker footing when it comes to bringing back various characters.
Hopefully one thing the story progression will produce is an introduction of new characters for the more mortal races as time goes on.
Formosa wrote: yes he did help his father, he fought and died for him, creating a chink in Horus's armour (I think this is an analogy for "doubt" not a literal rip in his armour).
And I also prefer the lone guardsman fighting against all odds.
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough; where does this bit about Sanguinius helping the Emperor come from? As I said, the most recent version of the story I'm aware of says no such thing (I already quoted the only mention of Sanguinius on Horus' ship) and had a Custodes be the one interrupt the duel. Where is this changed back to Ollanius Pius, and where did the idea that Sanguinius opened a weak spot (real or metaphorical) in Horus' armour come from?
I'm not saying you're wrong; just that I'm not familiar with it, and I want to see the source material. As it stands, going by the material I'm familiar with, the presence or otherwise of Sanguinius, and his death or survival, would have little or no effect on the end of the Heresy.
Iron_Captain wrote: To maintain a degree of equality all SM codices must have access to a Primarch, and Sanguinius is the only Primarch the BA have.
I am not saying you are wrong, just that I don't understand this "degree of equality". Why just Space Marines? How about all the other races. Shouldn't they have an equivalent as well? Now that would be equal. Story wise we don't need it, but play wise especially Match Play wise, everyone should have an option that is equal to Robute.
Iron_Captain wrote: To maintain a degree of equality all SM codices must have access to a Primarch, and Sanguinius is the only Primarch the BA have.
I am not saying you are wrong, just that I don't understand this "degree of equality". Why just Space Marines? How about all the other races. Shouldn't they have an equivalent as well? Now that would be equal. Story wise we don't need it, but play wise especially Match Play wise, everyone should have an option that is equal to Robute.
I actually agree that other, non-space marine factions should get primarch equivalents. I want to see the Silent King on the table.
Honestly, what I liked about 40k is that everything is happening after the cool guys all died. Everyone is just going by old codes that don't mean anything anymore and just trying to survive. 30k was for the guys who wanted all the cool guys while 40k was for the dudes who wanted nobodies. Now 40k has so many strong heros coming back what is the point? Everyone now has a real physical reason to fight rather than just doing it because of tradition (which was what i felt 40k was trying to say...).
GW have largely lost me with the fluff updates in recent years.
As people have said - its reached that point where they are clearly happy to retcon anything and as a result its impossible to invest much feeling in the setting. Characters, planets and whole factions live, die, have victories or defeats and all of it can be rendered irrelevant almost on the next page.
That is if anything happens at all. I mean RG has been alive... 9-10 months, and as far as I can see the fluff consequences have been negligible: "Here are the Primaris, pls buy".
So if they bring back Sanguinius and the fluff is that he broods on Baal from now until 2030... it doesn't really bother me.
John Prins wrote: WH40K is no better written than any comic book fiction, and they have people coming back from the dead all the time. Bring back the Primarchs. Heck, bring back the Emperor while you're at it. It doesn't matter as long as there's drama. It's the drama that sells.
John Prins wrote: WH40K is no better written than any comic book fiction, and they have people coming back from the dead all the time. Bring back the Primarchs. Heck, bring back the Emperor while you're at it. It doesn't matter as long as there's drama. It's the drama that sells.
But Uncle Ben stays dead.
And Jason Todd. Until 2005, when they revived him as Red Hood.
Formosa wrote: yes he did help his father, he fought and died for him, creating a chink in Horus's armour (I think this is an analogy for "doubt" not a literal rip in his armour).
And I also prefer the lone guardsman fighting against all odds.
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough; where does this bit about Sanguinius helping the Emperor come from? As I said, the most recent version of the story I'm aware of says no such thing (I already quoted the only mention of Sanguinius on Horus' ship) and had a Custodes be the one interrupt the duel. Where is this changed back to Ollanius Pius, and where did the idea that Sanguinius opened a weak spot (real or metaphorical) in Horus' armour come from?
I'm not saying you're wrong; just that I'm not familiar with it, and I want to see the source material. As it stands, going by the material I'm familiar with, the presence or otherwise of Sanguinius, and his death or survival, would have little or no effect on the end of the Heresy.
The Blood Angels codex, not sure if its in the new one but it was in the 4th Ed one and possibly 5th, havent read any of them since then.
Iron_Captain wrote: To maintain a degree of equality all SM codices must have access to a Primarch, and Sanguinius is the only Primarch the BA have.
I am not saying you are wrong, just that I don't understand this "degree of equality". Why just Space Marines? How about all the other races. Shouldn't they have an equivalent as well? Now that would be equal. Story wise we don't need it, but play wise especially Match Play wise, everyone should have an option that is equal to Robute.
I actually agree that other, non-space marine factions should get primarch equivalents. I want to see the Silent King on the table.
OH HELL YES!!!!
since Guilliman dropped I have thought this too, I WISH that Abbadon had been the Chaos version myself, the Deamon Primarchs have really overshadowed poor old abbadabbdon :/
Melissia wrote: So I talked with someone who actually watched the devstream, and the way they explained it, the "Sanguinius is alive!" thing is wrong.
Sanguinius is dead. Deader than dead. His body is in stasis, never reaching rigor mortis and never rotting-- but he's still dead. People are taking the "his body is in stasis" thing out of context and assuming this means he's the same as Guilliman.
Shush, don't dare meddle in people's process into throwing a chimpout over already imagined and solved grievances originated from some austrian's poor grasp of the english language!
I know I know I know, inserting logic in to an emotional, irrational argument is bad.
Such condescending attitude is almost adorable, but we are indeed witnessing a loss of the "magic" of the old day with this quasi-pornographic chase and representation of every detail, and obsession with the Named Characters. The fact that the game is subjected to a progressive "warmachinisation" due to the greater and greater emphasis toward specific characters and less over "your dudes" is under the eyes of everyone as well.
So yeah, Sanguinuis is in the air you can bet on it. In some form or another. For the simple reason that its model will make money. And ultimately, us, the players, are responsible of the murder of the fluff. There was a place for primarchs in the Heresy but that apparently not enough.
Tamwulf wrote: =Chapter Masters have been reduced to "barely above Captains", while the IG have no serious characters at all! It's been so bad for the IG that they had to resurrect Sly Marbo and give him Chapter Master stats!
With the due respect, I find statements like this infuriating for two reasons I) There is no reason for the SM to get a bigger character other than "space marines should have all the best and possible options". We already had a travesty of a thread recently showing the usual marine player entitlement. Is this the case once more? Should IG get a Hive Tyrant HQ choice, because reasons? CSM get princes, obliteratos and such because do not get a lot of fancy stuff like Speeders, LR variants, and all the circus. II) A Daemon Primarch is not the size of a Demon Prince. Say "We need primarchs because [normal] Daemon Princes" is absolutely fallacious. Is a complete nonsense. Automatically Appended Next Post:
lolman1c wrote: Honestly, what I liked about 40k is that everything is happening after the cool guys all died. Everyone is just going by old codes that don't mean anything anymore and just trying to survive. 30k was for the guys who wanted all the cool guys while 40k was for the dudes who wanted nobodies. Now 40k has so many strong heros coming back what is the point? Everyone now has a real physical reason to fight rather than just doing it because of tradition (which was what i felt 40k was trying to say...).
John Prins wrote: WH40K is no better written than any comic book fiction, and they have people coming back from the dead all the time. Bring back the Primarchs. Heck, bring back the Emperor while you're at it. It doesn't matter as long as there's drama. It's the drama that sells.
But Uncle Ben stays dead.
But not Jason Todd or Bucky Barnes. Or even Gwen Stacy. The point is, that if the authors feel the need, they'll resurrect anyone.
But not Jason Todd or Bucky Barnes. Or even Gwen Stacy. The point is, that if the authors feel they have to squeeze more money from an undead franchise and beat a dead horse, they'll resurrect anyone.
Well, trust GW to cheapen a major plot point, while giving the daddy issue marines no reason for their bad attitudes. Bunch of spoiled brats, give back the stolen predator.
John Prins wrote: WH40K is no better written than any comic book fiction, and they have people coming back from the dead all the time. Bring back the Primarchs. Heck, bring back the Emperor while you're at it. It doesn't matter as long as there's drama. It's the drama that sells.
But Uncle Ben stays dead.
But not Jason Todd or Bucky Barnes. Or even Gwen Stacy. The point is, that if the authors feel the need, they'll resurrect anyone.
Except in the case of the characters you mentioned, they were characters that existed independently of their deaths before then, even if they were ultimately defined in comic-book canon by them. Uncle Ben, like Sanguinius is a character who, from the very beginning, only existed to die for the purposes of providing motivation for events to come. Gwen Stacy coming back to life doesn't defeat Spider-man's entire reason for being. Uncle Ben would.
Yeah, that all makes sense.... *if* you ignore the money that a primarily models-based company could make on bringing back a model of one of *the* most badass, noble, relatable characters you could ever create! Hell, i would buy a sanguinius model (as long as it didn't have a potato for a face) and i'm actively boycotting gw until they get their game (sh*t) together. Your problem is focusing on the story, when there are profits to be made.
People that buy GW models aren’t stashing a piggy bank full of cash in case a Sanguinius model comes out. They spend that money anyway. Sure, if his model was released some people would buy it, but that same money would be spent at GW regardless. And futhermore, for every person who brings him to the tabletop there will be 10 people groaning and wincing about it. They would get “That Guy” designations by everyone except those who don’t give a feth about the story, ie the players who aren’t typically fun opponents
Also, if “profits are to be made”, we can all start speculating on the future release of the 2nd and 11th legions and Primarchs. C’mon man
Yes and no, for me its the fluff that keeps me playing this game a good example of that is the novel The Betrayer, after that book I went out and dropped a lot of money bucks on a HH world eaters army, others play the game first and then go for the fluff, and yet again another set of people have no real interest in the fluff outside of the codex's, were a varied bunch.
This guy gets it. People who see this as nothing more than pushing plastic across the table are robbing themselves of the full experience. Their choice, surely, but I for one wouldn’t have dropped thousands of dollars on this if it were nothing more than a really expensive and complicated game of chess. The story is the bedrock and without it I don’t think 40k as a tabletop game would exist.
I also bought 20 mk iii Marines, dark apostle, exalted champion, and two rhinos because of Betrayer. Even if you don’t buy the soft backs, you must acknowledge fluff sells models
A conceit of the 40k universe is that everything you're told is a lie, but everyone wants to believe what they read is written in stone. Every story or fact should be considered suspect, Kind of like how you guys view GW's motives.
I too must jump on the bandwagon of 'Get your 30k out of my 40k!'
I've not read the books. I've not played the games. I don't enjoy or want anything to do with the HH aside from as a suitably vague piece of background fluff that exists as a legend about the founding of the Imperium.
I totally get I'm in a minority, and I've got not issues with the existance of the HH setting rules and books and people doing whatever they like with it. But 40k is a different setting, and the differences in that setting are now being rapidly eroded by GW shoving things over without any good reason.
Sure, make Bobby G and sell Bobby G. Good for you model company. But why when you've got a perfectly good 30k setting to shove him in, does he need to be in 40k? And suddenly why does all the other primarchs? It's not like I can even get away from him, because he's on the tabletop every bloody game...
What about the Sangunior? I always thought he was the spiritual embodiment of Sanguinius.
I reckon the Prim(arch) candiates for return are the lion, Russ and the dude that disappeared into the web way, that's your four to stand against the daemon Primarchs of the pantheon and will probably be getting released in 2018 (Angron and Fulgrim).
Now there have been a few cases of primarchs being cloned, for instance Ferrus Manus for Fulgrim to keep chopping his head off and did Fabius clone Horus as well?
As an emperors children player I'm ambivalent to primarch releases apart from Fulgrim who will be getting pre-ordered the moment it drops.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: I mean they said on the stream this is from that he is dead, it is merely his body in stasis. He's not coming back, get over yourselves.
You can probably save your breath. It's been pointed out three or four times in this thread that this is a mass freakout over absolutely nothing, but people just don't seem to be registering it. It's a good demonstration of clickbait in action.
Crimson Devil wrote: A conceit of the 40k universe is that everything you're told is a lie, but everyone wants to believe what they read is written in stone. Every story or fact should be considered suspect, Kind of like how you guys view GW's motives.
Ironically that statement is also a lie, we have a lot of books from a first person perspective so they are more reliable as you are "in there head" the only lies are the ones they tell themselves, then you have the general overview books with survivor stories/winner perspective (Taros campaign is a good one for this), these are not so reliable, then you have pure propaganda (codex's) from the perspective of Imperials usually and are not to be trusted, so unreliable, in that same bunch you have the "historical" lookbacks that come out in various books, all of this is true and therefore a lie!
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AdmiralHalsey wrote: I too must jump on the bandwagon of 'Get your 30k out of my 40k!'
I've not read the books. I've not played the games. I don't enjoy or want anything to do with the HH aside from as a suitably vague piece of background fluff that exists as a legend about the founding of the Imperium.
I totally get I'm in a minority, and I've got not issues with the existance of the HH setting rules and books and people doing whatever they like with it. But 40k is a different setting, and the differences in that setting are now being rapidly eroded by GW shoving things over without any good reason.
Sure, make Bobby G and sell Bobby G. Good for you model company. But why when you've got a perfectly good 30k setting to shove him in, does he need to be in 40k? And suddenly why does all the other primarchs? It's not like I can even get away from him, because he's on the tabletop every bloody game...
30k has better fluff, better models (very subjective I know), much much better primarch models (this one is not subjective, just compare mr potato head with his 30k version) and I agree the Primarchs should stay there, but I am also one of those people that wants Primarines to be wiped from the fluff, like the models though.
pm713 wrote: I wouldn't call that pivotal seeing as if he doesn't do that things don't change much.
It defines the setting well but pivotal it is not.
Seeing what Horus did to Sanguinius is what gets the Emperor to take off the gloves and actually finish Horus. Without that it's quite possible that Horus kills the Emperor. No warp travel for humans, no keeping the broken portal in the basement closed so terra is now the centre of another eye of terror. The Imperium no longer exists. Pretty pivotal.
No it's not. That's Ollanius Pius. Sanguinius was a floor decoration.
"The Primarch's sacrifice is thought to have kept Horus occupied long enough for the Emperor to reach the Arch-Traitor in the very depths of his lair. When the Emperor at last entered Horus' sanctum, he found the rebellious Warmaster standing above Sanguinius' broken, bleeding corpse. In the battle that followed, Horus was finally vanquished, though the Emperor had also been mortally wounded and was near to death. There are many tales told of this final battle and, though the exact facts are long lost, one detail holds through all the recitations of the millennia since. Despite the Emperor's great power, he could never have bested Horus had not the blade of Sanguinius wrought a chink in the Warmaster's armour, and because of this, the Blood Angels claim him to be the greatest of all Primarchs."
I love HH as much as the next person, but seriously. Keep your 30K out of my 40K.
There's no reason to have Primarchs in 40K. Thats not what this setting is about. This is the aftermath, the downward spiral into madness and destruction.
Kill the Primarchs, Kill Primaris Marines and Kill all hope.
Kiarn wrote: What about the Sangunior? I always thought he was the spiritual embodiment of Sanguinius.
I reckon the Prim(arch) candiates for return are the lion, Russ and the dude that disappeared into the web way, that's your four to stand against the daemon Primarchs of the pantheon and will probably be getting released in 2018 (Angron and Fulgrim).
Now there have been a few cases of primarchs being cloned, for instance Ferrus Manus for Fulgrim to keep chopping his head off and did Fabius clone Horus as well?
As an emperors children player I'm ambivalent to primarch releases apart from Fulgrim who will be getting pre-ordered the moment it drops.
There are six daemon primarchs. Angron, Fulgrim, Magnus and Mortarion are all devoted to a specific god. Perturabo doesn't really care about the gods and Lorgar somehow serves them all.
The surviving (or presumed to be surviving) Loyalist primarchs are Lion El'Jonson (sleeping in the rock), Leman Russ (leading the wulfen against chaos, maybe), the resurrected Roboute Guilliman (currently ruling the IoM), Jaghatai Khan (presumed to be in the dark eldars custody), Corvus Corax (went off into the EoT seeking death or forgiveness for what he had done). A few wild cards, early fluff has Rogal Dorn as dead as a doornail, but it was changed so only his hands were found. Another possible one is Vulkan, who is a perpetual (wolverine style immortal), and while he died in beast arises he never let getting killed keep him down before.
Dead primarchs are Ferrus Manus, one of the primarchs could have survived decapitation, but unfortunately for ol' Ferrus Mannus that was Vulkan and not him. Konrad Kurze killed by imperial assassins, more like suicide by assassins but close enough. Alpharius was killed by two primarchs in a melee, and we have some old fluff that omegon (having taken on the mantle of alpharius) was killed by by Roboute Guilliman. Horus got his soul destroyed by the emperor, so he is amongst the deadest of the dead. Finally Sanguinius who was killed by Horus, whose sacrifice supposedly enabled the emperor to win against Horus with the power of all four chaos gods backing him.
Honorable mention for near primarch levels of badassery go to Luther, who fought the lion in single combat. Sanguinor who appears to be a psychic manifestation of sanguinius. Mephiston, an alpha level psyker who recovered from the black rage (sort of, it's complicated). Abaddon, who was already the mightiest space marine in the lunar wolves (possibly the mightiest space marine full stop), and since becoming the champion of chaos undivided could undoubtedly go toe to toe with a primarch. Ianus who is kind of sort of an uncorrupted version of Magnus. Several members of the custodes. I mention these guys because they don't need to go retconning cornerstone events to get new Grade A bad asses for table top, they have a ton of them in lore.
Nurgle's Bacon wrote: "The Primarch's sacrifice is thought to have kept Horus occupied long enough for the Emperor to reach the Arch-Traitor in the very depths of his lair. When the Emperor at last entered Horus' sanctum, he found the rebellious Warmaster standing above Sanguinius' broken, bleeding corpse. In the battle that followed, Horus was finally vanquished, though the Emperor had also been mortally wounded and was near to death. There are many tales told of this final battle and, though the exact facts are long lost, one detail holds through all the recitations of the millennia since. Despite the Emperor's great power, he could never have bested Horus had not the blade of Sanguinius wrought a chink in the Warmaster's armour, and because of this, the Blood Angels claim him to be the greatest of all Primarchs."
Some floor decoration.
In no way does that sound like propaganda. Bits of your armour missing don't affect psychic powers and Horus wanted to fight the Emperor so they were going to fight anyway.
Nurgle's Bacon wrote: "The Primarch's sacrifice is thought to have kept Horus occupied long enough for the Emperor to reach the Arch-Traitor in the very depths of his lair. When the Emperor at last entered Horus' sanctum, he found the rebellious Warmaster standing above Sanguinius' broken, bleeding corpse. In the battle that followed, Horus was finally vanquished, though the Emperor had also been mortally wounded and was near to death. There are many tales told of this final battle and, though the exact facts are long lost, one detail holds through all the recitations of the millennia since. Despite the Emperor's great power, he could never have bested Horus had not the blade of Sanguinius wrought a chink in the Warmaster's armour, and because of this, the Blood Angels claim him to be the greatest of all Primarchs."
Some floor decoration.
In no way does that sound like propaganda. Bits of your armour missing don't affect psychic powers and Horus wanted to fight the Emperor so they were going to fight anyway.
10,000 years ago.
Longer. Than. Recorded. Human. History. So. Far.
Of bloody course things are going to get distorted, or do we know in our own world in minute detail what happened in 8000BC?
Nurgle's Bacon wrote: "The Primarch's sacrifice is thought to have kept Horus occupied long enough for the Emperor to reach the Arch-Traitor in the very depths of his lair. When the Emperor at last entered Horus' sanctum, he found the rebellious Warmaster standing above Sanguinius' broken, bleeding corpse. In the battle that followed, Horus was finally vanquished, though the Emperor had also been mortally wounded and was near to death. There are many tales told of this final battle and, though the exact facts are long lost, one detail holds through all the recitations of the millennia since. Despite the Emperor's great power, he could never have bested Horus had not the blade of Sanguinius wrought a chink in the Warmaster's armour, and because of this, the Blood Angels claim him to be the greatest of all Primarchs."
Some floor decoration.
In no way does that sound like propaganda. Bits of your armour missing don't affect psychic powers and Horus wanted to fight the Emperor so they were going to fight anyway.
10,000 years ago.
Longer. Than. Recorded. Human. History. So. Far.
Of bloody course things are going to get distorted, or do we know in our own world in minute detail what happened in 8000BC?
There's things getting distorted and there's just making up propaganda.
Nurgle's Bacon wrote: "The Primarch's sacrifice is thought to have kept Horus occupied long enough for the Emperor to reach the Arch-Traitor in the very depths of his lair. When the Emperor at last entered Horus' sanctum, he found the rebellious Warmaster standing above Sanguinius' broken, bleeding corpse. In the battle that followed, Horus was finally vanquished, though the Emperor had also been mortally wounded and was near to death. There are many tales told of this final battle and, though the exact facts are long lost, one detail holds through all the recitations of the millennia since. Despite the Emperor's great power, he could never have bested Horus had not the blade of Sanguinius wrought a chink in the Warmaster's armour, and because of this, the Blood Angels claim him to be the greatest of all Primarchs."
Some floor decoration.
In no way does that sound like propaganda. Bits of your armour missing don't affect psychic powers and Horus wanted to fight the Emperor so they were going to fight anyway.
10,000 years ago.
Longer. Than. Recorded. Human. History. So. Far.
Of bloody course things are going to get distorted, or do we know in our own world in minute detail what happened in 8000BC?
There's things getting distorted and there's just making up propaganda.
Nurgle's Bacon wrote: "The Primarch's sacrifice is thought to have kept Horus occupied long enough for the Emperor to reach the Arch-Traitor in the very depths of his lair. When the Emperor at last entered Horus' sanctum, he found the rebellious Warmaster standing above Sanguinius' broken, bleeding corpse. In the battle that followed, Horus was finally vanquished, though the Emperor had also been mortally wounded and was near to death. There are many tales told of this final battle and, though the exact facts are long lost, one detail holds through all the recitations of the millennia since. Despite the Emperor's great power, he could never have bested Horus had not the blade of Sanguinius wrought a chink in the Warmaster's armour, and because of this, the Blood Angels claim him to be the greatest of all Primarchs."
Some floor decoration.
In no way does that sound like propaganda. Bits of your armour missing don't affect psychic powers and Horus wanted to fight the Emperor so they were going to fight anyway.
10,000 years ago.
Longer. Than. Recorded. Human. History. So. Far.
Of bloody course things are going to get distorted, or do we know in our own world in minute detail what happened in 8000BC?
There's things getting distorted and there's just making up propaganda.
Gonna go down swinging are we?
Just like Sanguinius.
I'd give up, they seem to have some deep set dislike of Sanguinius that goes beyond a discussion of the fluff somehow.
Brutus_Apex wrote: I love HH as much as the next person, but seriously. Keep your 30K out of my 40K.
There's no reason to have Primarchs in 40K. Thats not what this setting is about. This is the aftermath, the downward spiral into madness and destruction.
Kill the Primarchs, Kill Primaris Marines and Kill all hope.
Nurgle's Bacon wrote: "The Primarch's sacrifice is thought to have kept Horus occupied long enough for the Emperor to reach the Arch-Traitor in the very depths of his lair. When the Emperor at last entered Horus' sanctum, he found the rebellious Warmaster standing above Sanguinius' broken, bleeding corpse. In the battle that followed, Horus was finally vanquished, though the Emperor had also been mortally wounded and was near to death. There are many tales told of this final battle and, though the exact facts are long lost, one detail holds through all the recitations of the millennia since. Despite the Emperor's great power, he could never have bested Horus had not the blade of Sanguinius wrought a chink in the Warmaster's armour, and because of this, the Blood Angels claim him to be the greatest of all Primarchs."
Some floor decoration.
In no way does that sound like propaganda. Bits of your armour missing don't affect psychic powers and Horus wanted to fight the Emperor so they were going to fight anyway.
10,000 years ago.
Longer. Than. Recorded. Human. History. So. Far.
Of bloody course things are going to get distorted, or do we know in our own world in minute detail what happened in 8000BC?
There's things getting distorted and there's just making up propaganda.
Gonna go down swinging are we?
Just like Sanguinius.
I'd give up, they seem to have some deep set dislike of Sanguinius that goes beyond a discussion of the fluff somehow.
I feel like the reverse. People are so into Sanguinius him not being the amazing best Primarch is inconceviable.
Nurgle's Bacon wrote: "The Primarch's sacrifice is thought to have kept Horus occupied long enough for the Emperor to reach the Arch-Traitor in the very depths of his lair. When the Emperor at last entered Horus' sanctum, he found the rebellious Warmaster standing above Sanguinius' broken, bleeding corpse. In the battle that followed, Horus was finally vanquished, though the Emperor had also been mortally wounded and was near to death. There are many tales told of this final battle and, though the exact facts are long lost, one detail holds through all the recitations of the millennia since. Despite the Emperor's great power, he could never have bested Horus had not the blade of Sanguinius wrought a chink in the Warmaster's armour, and because of this, the Blood Angels claim him to be the greatest of all Primarchs."
Some floor decoration.
In no way does that sound like propaganda. Bits of your armour missing don't affect psychic powers and Horus wanted to fight the Emperor so they were going to fight anyway.
10,000 years ago.
Longer. Than. Recorded. Human. History. So. Far.
Of bloody course things are going to get distorted, or do we know in our own world in minute detail what happened in 8000BC?
There's things getting distorted and there's just making up propaganda.
Gonna go down swinging are we?
Just like Sanguinius.
I'd give up, they seem to have some deep set dislike of Sanguinius that goes beyond a discussion of the fluff somehow.
I feel like the reverse. People are so into Sanguinius him not being the amazing best Primarch is inconceviable.
And a large part of that is due to his sacrifice. Don't you get it, Sanguinius wouldn't be so cool if he wasn't the self-sacrificed Martyr that the Imperium knows him as.
Nurgle's Bacon wrote: "The Primarch's sacrifice is thought to have kept Horus occupied long enough for the Emperor to reach the Arch-Traitor in the very depths of his lair. When the Emperor at last entered Horus' sanctum, he found the rebellious Warmaster standing above Sanguinius' broken, bleeding corpse. In the battle that followed, Horus was finally vanquished, though the Emperor had also been mortally wounded and was near to death. There are many tales told of this final battle and, though the exact facts are long lost, one detail holds through all the recitations of the millennia since. Despite the Emperor's great power, he could never have bested Horus had not the blade of Sanguinius wrought a chink in the Warmaster's armour, and because of this, the Blood Angels claim him to be the greatest of all Primarchs."
Some floor decoration.
In no way does that sound like propaganda. Bits of your armour missing don't affect psychic powers and Horus wanted to fight the Emperor so they were going to fight anyway.
Except it's been mentioned elsewhere physical contact is required for the soul destroying attack. Which is why Emperor was saved by the ork warlord by Horus. It's not just deus-ex-machine attack that can be activated at will.
Nurgle's Bacon wrote: "The Primarch's sacrifice is thought to have kept Horus occupied long enough for the Emperor to reach the Arch-Traitor in the very depths of his lair. When the Emperor at last entered Horus' sanctum, he found the rebellious Warmaster standing above Sanguinius' broken, bleeding corpse. In the battle that followed, Horus was finally vanquished, though the Emperor had also been mortally wounded and was near to death. There are many tales told of this final battle and, though the exact facts are long lost, one detail holds through all the recitations of the millennia since. Despite the Emperor's great power, he could never have bested Horus had not the blade of Sanguinius wrought a chink in the Warmaster's armour, and because of this, the Blood Angels claim him to be the greatest of all Primarchs."
Some floor decoration.
In no way does that sound like propaganda. Bits of your armour missing don't affect psychic powers and Horus wanted to fight the Emperor so they were going to fight anyway.
Except it's been mentioned elsewhere physical contact is required for the soul destroying attack. Which is why Emperor was saved by the ork warlord by Horus. It's not just deus-ex-machine attack that can be activated at will.
The problem I have with that is that his head is exposed. So the emperor could have grabbed there???? I dunno just a thought of the moment.
pm713 wrote: I wouldn't call that pivotal seeing as if he doesn't do that things don't change much.
It defines the setting well but pivotal it is not.
Seeing what Horus did to Sanguinius is what gets the Emperor to take off the gloves and actually finish Horus. Without that it's quite possible that Horus kills the Emperor. No warp travel for humans, no keeping the broken portal in the basement closed so terra is now the centre of another eye of terror. The Imperium no longer exists. Pretty pivotal.
No it's not. That's Ollanius Pius. Sanguinius was a floor decoration.
Christ you dont even know most recent fluff in spite of being told it several times PM..... its Ol Person, not Olanius Pius, and have you ever heard of "the straw that broke the camels back", if you dont realise that Sanguinius's death was THE major factor for the Emperor wanting to take down Horus at that time, you really dont know how humans work at all.
himself. It's Hero Hammer with a capital 'H'. I love that about the Horus Heresy! They are a huge force multiplier and can directly influence the game.
