Hi people.
Not sure if this is the right spot or if it should go on the off-topic forum (feel free to move the thread if need be).
So this is something that came up to my mind while I was introducing a friend to W40k and beginning to pop Buproprion.
I started playing 40k in 2010 (was 20 back then). Since then I've met several players and played several games.
There were some times I've mumbled that 40k was the worst game ever and other times I've felt it was the greatest invention of the human mind. Something, on the other hand, stayed the same over the years : I seriously despise a big part of the players I've met. Not just the WAAC, but even the regular ones.
It is just me or are some W40k players just total jerks ? Here are some examples of behaviours I've witnessed that are not related to WAAC (mostly in the Grand Montreal Area but also in Gatineau) :
1- A store employee telling some players girlfriends that w40k didn't attract girls because they just suck at wargaming.
2-A player yelling at his girlfriend to shut up until he finished his game.
3-An opponent of mine who came to a match while unbathed.
4-A store owner telling a new player (teenager) how his painting skills were lame.
5-A store owner telling me that I could only use stuff bought in his store (it is just me or are store owners douchebags ?).
6-A duo of players laughing at a beginner who wanted to play T'au.
7-My unbathed opponent telling me I should never play T'au because of North Korea and that I was a fool if I believed in climate change (while he was enlightened because he was a catholic).
8- A player complaining about the afro space marines of his opponent.
I could go on and on, especially after 8 years, but to sum it up :
Most ''veterans" of the hobby in my area seem to be a bunch of jerks that have poor relationship skills (and hygiene), which scare off young newcomers (and that's without their obsession with WAAC).
These day I mostly play with people that I know aren't jerks or WAAC, which is mostly newcomers that either play with other newcomers or me.
So, are older w40k players more inclined to being jerks ?
All hobbies are filled with some of the worst dreck of humanity. 40k just has some of the more unique ones since you can spend months without human interaction delving into painting, modelling, lore, and even video games.
Needless to say some of the less socially capable among us tend to be the more noticeable.
I don't think that you can say any kind of stereotype is going to fit.
I would put your complains as 3 groups.
Gamergate stupid hating on women and minorities. Yep. Dumb is dumb. We all need to slap this down.
The unwashed and dirty.. Ask them to go clean up. Be blunt.
The WAAC. Frankly this game need more WAAC. Not cheating, but the WAAC from other games who do stuff like...work out, eat healthy, read books on game theory, all so they can play better.
Other than that, people are terrible. Don't trust them.
I have only met one unwashed opponent, but thankfully my nose is all but useless thanks to GENETICS so I could play fine against him. Needless to say he doesnt get a lot of other opponents.
Bharring wrote: Mankind is the worst collection of scum and villany on earth.
Why limit ourselves only to Earth? We've put people in space. We can at least call ourselves the worst collection of scum and villianry in the solar system thanks to that.
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vaklor4 wrote: I have only met one unwashed opponent, but thankfully my nose is all but useless thanks to GENETICS so I could play fine against him. Needless to say he doesnt get a lot of other opponents.
I'm in a similar boat with the sense of smell thing, which makes me basically bathe in deodorant after every shower so I don't turn into that guy.
Also if I can smell you, we've moved past "needs a shower" and onto "clean it with fire".
And here was me thinking this thread was going to be about the tendency for certain GW fanbois to chug too much of the proverbial kool aid and treat GW/40k like it is some kind of religion that must be defended unto death amongst all attackers from without and within against an perceived slight on Holy GW.
Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime: the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and the execution is carried out automatically and without pity.
Yep, 40k players are humans and like all humans we're all unique a full of character. Some of us are bad boyfriends, some of us are bad girlfriends, some of us are bad store owners and some of us can even be nice genuine people. That's the great thing about being human, you are totally unique to everyone else.
lolman1c wrote: Yep, 40k players are humans and like all humans we're all unique a full of character. Some of us are bad boyfriends, some of us are bad girlfriends, some of us are bad store owners and some of us can even be ni e genuine people. That's the great thing about being human, you are totally unique to everyone else.
This, oh and the stinking might be a tactic to force you to submit defeat.
I've been on a hiatus from the late 90's until about a year ago. I forget many of the opponents I had fought then, but getting older, with more life experience and whatnot, I have noticed a lot more in my opponents and community.
You will get some real oddballs and a few alarming ones, but if that list is the only ones you can think of in 10 years then I'd wager you have had a pretty tame 40k experience!
I think this is just the nature of 40k being a much larger community than other minis game, so you get a larger variety of people.
When I show up to a 40k night in my area there is usually 10+ people and it's a rotating cast of people who show up, so there is always new people coming in and out.
When I show up to infinity night it's usually the same 6 people over and over so you get to know them and people are less likely to be mean to people that they know and have to deal with all the time
There's a few outliers, but most of my normal 40k group are decent folks.
There's been a few with hygiene issues, and maybe a couple personal issues between players, but nothing horrifically overt. A couple even bring their girlfriends/wives along.
Maybe it has to do with meeting complete randos at a public store. Biased by only including people willing to meet randos at a public store and spend a couple hours with them.
Reemule wrote: I don't see the numbers of TFG in Xwing (Bigger game) than I do in 40K.
Can we blame the Hobby aspect?
X-Wing sells in a wider range of stores and is more mainline than 40k, thus drawing in a wider range of people than just the hardcore wargaming crowd.
But that implication would be that much hardcore wargames would have more TFG than 40K. I don't see that in my experience though.
I was thinking more of a certain breed of TFG who tends to have poor social skills I guess, which tend to be a fair number of more hardcore nerd hobbist in my experience. Competitive people are everywhere, but there is definitely kind of haven of less socially adept people into niche hobbies like wargaming.
Sure, there are some TFGs, but they exist everywhere in every hobby. The only small difference is that 40k is a pretty cheap hobby so some of the "no social skills, doesn't bathe, therefore can't get a real job" types aren't cut out like they would be in a more expensive hobby. Overall though the problem is highly exaggerated. The overwhelming majority of 40k players, and gamers in general, I've encountered have been fairly normal people.
Peregrine wrote: Sure, there are some TFGs, but they exist everywhere in every hobby. The only small difference is that 40k is a pretty cheap hobby so some of the "no social skills, doesn't bathe, therefore can't get a real job" types aren't cut out like they would be in a more expensive hobby. Overall though the problem is highly exaggerated. The overwhelming majority of 40k players, and gamers in general, I've encountered have been fairly normal people.
In what fantasy country do you live in where 40k is cheap compared to most hobbies? In card games like M:TG you can spend one hundred dollars and have a stacked deck ready for local play, or spend 20 dollars and have a tabletop casual ready deck. Or alternatively, Herolix, where if you want to go meta competitive, you barely need to break above the 100 dollar mark to get fully prepared. Or just buy a single brick and have a wide range of models you can play dozens of games with.
I know these are just two points, but they're two very good point. Heck, i'd go so far as to say that there are plenty of other war games that are cheaper as well, if you want to only count those.
Reemule wrote: I don't see the numbers of TFG in Xwing (Bigger game) than I do in 40K.
Can we blame the Hobby aspect?
X-Wing sells in a wider range of stores and is more mainline than 40k, thus drawing in a wider range of people than just the hardcore wargaming crowd.
But that implication would be that much hardcore wargames would have more TFG than 40K. I don't see that in my experience though.
I was thinking more of a certain breed of TFG who tends to have poor social skills I guess, which tend to be a fair number of more hardcore nerd hobbist in my experience. Competitive people are everywhere, but there is definitely kind of haven of less socially adept people into niche hobbies like wargaming.
I also think TFG's who are socially inept are FAR easier to deal with than TFGs who have genuine charisma, and intelligence.
Khornate25 wrote: Hi people.
Not sure if this is the right spot or if it should go on the off-topic forum (feel free to move the thread if need be).
So this is something that came up to my mind while I was introducing a friend to W40k and beginning to pop Buproprion.
I started playing 40k in 2010 (was 20 back then). Since then I've met several players and played several games.
There were some times I've mumbled that 40k was the worst game ever and other times I've felt it was the greatest invention of the human mind. Something, on the other hand, stayed the same over the years : I seriously despise a big part of the players I've met. Not just the WAAC, but even the regular ones.
It is just me or are some W40k players just total jerks ? Here are some examples of behaviours I've witnessed that are not related to WAAC (mostly in the Grand Montreal Area but also in Gatineau) :
1- A store employee telling some players girlfriends that w40k didn't attract girls because they just suck at wargaming.
2-A player yelling at his girlfriend to shut up until he finished his game.
3-An opponent of mine who came to a match while unbathed.
4-A store owner telling a new player (teenager) how his painting skills were lame.
5-A store owner telling me that I could only use stuff bought in his store (it is just me or are store owners douchebags ?).
6-A duo of players laughing at a beginner who wanted to play T'au.
7-My unbathed opponent telling me I should never play T'au because of North Korea and that I was a fool if I believed in climate change (while he was enlightened because he was a catholic).
8- A player complaining about the afro space marines of his opponent.
I could go on and on, especially after 8 years, but to sum it up :
Most ''veterans" of the hobby in my area seem to be a bunch of jerks that have poor relationship skills (and hygiene), which scare off young newcomers (and that's without their obsession with WAAC).
These day I mostly play with people that I know aren't jerks or WAAC, which is mostly newcomers that either play with other newcomers or me.
So, are older w40k players more inclined to being jerks ?
oh man after I read this I am happy about my local gw. they are all friendliy help newcomers and are all bathed if there is someone who stinks it is mostly me in the summer )full buses sometimes no windows and that with 35 celsius.=
It's probably just you remember bad people more. I forget most people at my store unless my memory is jogged but I remember the bad people pretty clearly. Like the blatant cheating...
vaklor4 wrote: In what fantasy country do you live in where 40k is cheap compared to most hobbies? In card games like M:TG you can spend one hundred dollars and have a stacked deck ready for local play, or spend 20 dollars and have a tabletop casual ready deck. Or alternatively, Herolix, where if you want to go meta competitive, you barely need to break above the 100 dollar mark to get fully prepared. Or just buy a single brick and have a wide range of models you can play dozens of games with.
In the real world, where gaming of any kind is cheap. First of all, you aren't getting a MTG deck for $20-100 unless you only play in a group of people where everyone agrees to limit their spending to that level. If you want to play even semi-competitively you're spending hundreds of dollars per deck and changing them frequently as the format rotates. Second, adult hobbies get really expensive. The plane I fly? Rents for $170/hour, and I'm looking into buying a $25-50,000 plane to get that per-hour cost down. But what about one of my cheaper hobbies, photography? That's $500+ for a decent camera, another $500-1000+ for a starter set of lenses, plus light boxes/travel to outdoor locations/etc to actually take any pictures of anything. I have friends that have cars as their hobby and even a cheap track-worthy car is a few thousand dollars, plus assorted hundreds to thousands of dollar upgrade expenses. Want a new gaming PC? $1000+ easily. Take a vacation? $500+ for airline tickets, plus hundreds of dollars for a hotel room, plus whatever you want to do on the trip. Hell, even a dinner date at a decent restaurant is going to be more expensive than 40k when you look at it in per-hour terms. 40k is only expensive from the point of view of children with very limited gift money, or people working low-end jobs where everything is expensive.
IMO where this translates to community behavior is that more expensive hobbies require a better job, and a better job requires things like basic social skills and bathing every day. The TFG Nurgle cultist might be able to get a minimum-wage job at the local Walmart and save up enough money to buy a box of space marines (especially if they get into MTG and make a bunch of money ripping off kids), but I doubt I'm going to run into them at the airport or at a nice restaurant.
40k is cheaper than going out for dinner once or twice a week. One reason I never picked up on smoking, drugs or alcohol when I was younger is simple cost opportunity. Cigarettes or a blister pack of models? Models every time.
Wargaming is time-intensive, but generally quite cheap compared to many other product-based hobbies. Is it cheap for a high school kid? No. Cheap for a person coming out of college with debt in a starting career? No. But, compare it to building cars, firearms, golf, etc...and it's laughably inexpensive.
Is it more expensive than jogging, or hiking? Sure.
Because it's a hobby you have little to no say in who joins the "community". What you can do is choose who you wish to spend time with. Our local community is perhaps 40-50 active members. I hang out, and game with about ten of them, having learned that the other 30+ are people I'm fine not spending time with. I'm not desperate to game and needing to go find pick-up games, etc. The repeated complaints you see on sites like this normally boil down to people insisting on playing strangers, or being unwilling to confront donkey-caves in their small gaming circle. That's just lack of proper communication, and a willingness to bring up and uncomfortable subject. It happens.
It's a strong reason why garage-hammer is so prevalent in our local group. We could go bump elbows at a small local gaming store, surrounded by loud MTG players, or we can chill out in someone's living room - enjoy dinner, and some beer and play on our own tables. The decision is pretty easy.
At my local we have the usual MTG crowd, not a bad bunch really, couple of stereotypes walking about.
Then we have the 40k group, mega varied bunch, 3 girls, a black dude, myself (Welsh/Singaporean), couple of polish lads and a bunch of others, about 30 of us all told, only 1 person id consider a TFG, but he doesn’t really play anymore.
Then there is the great unwashed as we call them, some of the most obnoxious people I have ever met, the Star Wars crowd, armada mainly but also x wing, it’s not fair to tar them all with the same brush but most of them seem to be TFG types with poor personal hygiene.
Lastly you have the yu gi oh players, mostly late teens to early twenties, quiet as anything and a pretty chilled group.
No group is perfect, people can be douches from time to time, 40k is a popular game and as such will attract its fair share of the great unwashed, just like any popular thing.
vaklor4 wrote: In what fantasy country do you live in where 40k is cheap compared to most hobbies? In card games like M:TG you can spend one hundred dollars and have a stacked deck ready for local play, or spend 20 dollars and have a tabletop casual ready deck. Or alternatively, Herolix, where if you want to go meta competitive, you barely need to break above the 100 dollar mark to get fully prepared. Or just buy a single brick and have a wide range of models you can play dozens of games with.
In the real world, where gaming of any kind is cheap. First of all, you aren't getting a MTG deck for $20-100 unless you only play in a group of people where everyone agrees to limit their spending to that level. If you want to play even semi-competitively you're spending hundreds of dollars per deck and changing them frequently as the format rotates. Second, adult hobbies get really expensive. The plane I fly? Rents for $170/hour, and I'm looking into buying a $25-50,000 plane to get that per-hour cost down. But what about one of my cheaper hobbies, photography? That's $500+ for a decent camera, another $500-1000+ for a starter set of lenses, plus light boxes/travel to outdoor locations/etc to actually take any pictures of anything. I have friends that have cars as their hobby and even a cheap track-worthy car is a few thousand dollars, plus assorted hundreds to thousands of dollar upgrade expenses. Want a new gaming PC? $1000+ easily. Take a vacation? $500+ for airline tickets, plus hundreds of dollars for a hotel room, plus whatever you want to do on the trip. Hell, even a dinner date at a decent restaurant is going to be more expensive than 40k when you look at it in per-hour terms. 40k is only expensive from the point of view of children with very limited gift money, or people working low-end jobs where everything is expensive.
IMO where this translates to community behavior is that more expensive hobbies require a better job, and a better job requires things like basic social skills and bathing every day. The TFG Nurgle cultist might be able to get a minimum-wage job at the local Walmart and save up enough money to buy a box of space marines (especially if they get into MTG and make a bunch of money ripping off kids), but I doubt I'm going to run into them at the airport or at a nice restaurant.
And if you actually paint your models you actually spend even less per month on warhammer. It takes me a good couple weeks to finish up a single kit. Often longer.
vaklor4 wrote: In what fantasy country do you live in where 40k is cheap compared to most hobbies? In card games like M:TG you can spend one hundred dollars and have a stacked deck ready for local play, or spend 20 dollars and have a tabletop casual ready deck. Or alternatively, Herolix, where if you want to go meta competitive, you barely need to break above the 100 dollar mark to get fully prepared. Or just buy a single brick and have a wide range of models you can play dozens of games with.
In the real world, where gaming of any kind is cheap. First of all, you aren't getting a MTG deck for $20-100 unless you only play in a group of people where everyone agrees to limit their spending to that level. If you want to play even semi-competitively you're spending hundreds of dollars per deck and changing them frequently as the format rotates. Second, adult hobbies get really expensive. The plane I fly? Rents for $170/hour, and I'm looking into buying a $25-50,000 plane to get that per-hour cost down. But what about one of my cheaper hobbies, photography? That's $500+ for a decent camera, another $500-1000+ for a starter set of lenses, plus light boxes/travel to outdoor locations/etc to actually take any pictures of anything. I have friends that have cars as their hobby and even a cheap track-worthy car is a few thousand dollars, plus assorted hundreds to thousands of dollar upgrade expenses. Want a new gaming PC? $1000+ easily. Take a vacation? $500+ for airline tickets, plus hundreds of dollars for a hotel room, plus whatever you want to do on the trip. Hell, even a dinner date at a decent restaurant is going to be more expensive than 40k when you look at it in per-hour terms. 40k is only expensive from the point of view of children with very limited gift money, or people working low-end jobs where everything is expensive.
IMO where this translates to community behavior is that more expensive hobbies require a better job, and a better job requires things like basic social skills and bathing every day. The TFG Nurgle cultist might be able to get a minimum-wage job at the local Walmart and save up enough money to buy a box of space marines (especially if they get into MTG and make a bunch of money ripping off kids), but I doubt I'm going to run into them at the airport or at a nice restaurant.
I used to race competitive Radio Controlled Cars. Talk about an expensive hobby ! 40K is dirt cheap in comparison.
Let's fight about this for years. I for one feel the OP is wrong and that all 40kers are upright, bathing members of society who are the pinnacle of social graces! But of course, anyone who disagrees with the OP will be wrong and part of the problem. I am a dirty jerkist who openly supports poor hygiene. At least that's what the OP will say instead of attacking my argument...
Reemule wrote: I don't think that you can say any kind of stereotype is going to fit.
I would put your complains as 3 groups.
Gamergate stupid hating on women and minorities. Yep. Dumb is dumb. We all need to slap this down.
The unwashed and dirty.. Ask them to go clean up. Be blunt.
The WAAC. Frankly this game need more WAAC. Not cheating, but the WAAC from other games who do stuff like...work out, eat healthy, read books on game theory, all so they can play better.
Other than that, people are terrible. Don't trust them.
You forgot your CAAC and FAAC people. These aren't unique to miniatures games, but are far more common in 40k and AoS than any other type of game I've ever played(and together make up about 40% of everyone on this forum). Casual at all cost people take great pride in being terrible at the game because it shields them completely from having to deal with losses. It's never their fault they lost, it's your "OP netlist" that won the game.(but...I played an all dreadnoughts list and didn't even have any tech marines and you had 3 Custode shield captains, 3 knights, and a guard battalion? NETLIST!!! WAAC TRYHARD!!! NOT MY FAULT MY ARMY DOESN'T HAVE D-WEAPONS!!!!) They usually follow this up with a bunch of comments about how tournaments are 'toxic' despite the fact that they never even go to tournaments and tend to be much sorer losers than most people at tournaments.
Then you have your Fluff at all Cost people. They're usually not as aggressively unpleasant as CAACs because they prefer to be passive aggressive and snide. These are the type of people who use their knowledge of the fluff and hobby skills as an excuse to look down on people and feel self important.They're 100% convinced that deliberately hamstringing yourself in the game to better match General-Lord-Admiral-Captain-Supervisor Snuggletits and his EDGELORDS OF MAXIMUM EDGE chapter on their totally-awesome-andn-at-all-lame-like-a-million-times-better-than-new-star-wars-and-marvel-is-so-played-out adventures is the ONLY way to play the game and that anyone who doesn't want to play like that should just be playing checkers or chess or backgammon, because that's not idiotic at all.
Basically, the community gets real up in arms about WAAC people but I have way more problems with the OTHER side of the spectrum.
Tabletop wargames is a niche hobby, and it tends to attract people with eccentricities. I'm not sure why you are surprised. Just a couple of things I wanted to point out...
1,3,4,7. Just bad social skills, even normal people do this kind of stuff.
2. You are aware this kind of thing is extremely common in relationships where neither person plays WH40K right?
5. Store owner probably has that rule so that he can sell a few extra kits. Sadly, it probably backfires on him and pushes people away from his store.
6. Are you sure they weren't just joking with him? If I knew a new player who wanted to get into Tau, the very first thing I would say to him is "So you like the blue anime fan space communists huh?".
8. Afro space marines sounds really cool actually. Was it like 80's disco afros on space marines? lol... If so, that is awesome.
Those are all pretty ghastly examples, but they exist in all hobbies. Whenever I move away from the GW hobby and back into my other passion - rail photography, I see some of the worst of society there. Just behaving in different ways. When there's a heritage train on, they all come out of the woodwork and drive in a way that is dangerous to themselves, other enthusiasts and especially to other road users who have no interest in looking at a train beyond time lost at a level crossing. The trick is to do exactly what you've done - find a good place to game, find good people to game with and just flat out refuse games against bad opponents. If everyone did that, then people would be forced to change their behaviour, or go elsewhere to game.
I generally advocate for people taking a sterner line on bad hygiene, rancid social skills (to the point of being offensive rather than just awkward or strange), and other inappropriate behaviours.
It's been a while since I've played but still maintain that the moment someone hits the point where you're thinking "christ, what an ass" and regretting the match is the moment you should just straight up end the game, pack your minis and leave.
I've played 40K for a while now and on a few different continents and I've never had these bad experiences with players other than the bad hygiene guy. I don't doubt these are people's experiences but I do wonder how much of it is exaggerated or miss remembered.
There's always the weird people in every hobby, its just that 40k especially attracts a lot of eccentric die-hards.. This may be due to the large barrier to entry (models are expensice), Si-fi theme (can be seen as geeky) and the combination of both modeling and war gaming (need to be okay with doing both.
All these factors together isolate a large amount of the population, so a good bit of the people left are the extremes, and left isolated from the general population it may seem that they rule the 40k.
That said not everyone is bad, its about 50-50 in my community, maybe even a bit more towards the normal side.Seems like your experiences are directed at certain people...
vaklor4 wrote: In what fantasy country do you live in where 40k is cheap compared to most hobbies? In card games like M:TG you can spend one hundred dollars and have a stacked deck ready for local play, or spend 20 dollars and have a tabletop casual ready deck. Or alternatively, Herolix, where if you want to go meta competitive, you barely need to break above the 100 dollar mark to get fully prepared. Or just buy a single brick and have a wide range of models you can play dozens of games with.
In the real world, where gaming of any kind is cheap. First of all, you aren't getting a MTG deck for $20-100 unless you only play in a group of people where everyone agrees to limit their spending to that level. If you want to play even semi-competitively you're spending hundreds of dollars per deck and changing them frequently as the format rotates. Second, adult hobbies get really expensive. The plane I fly? Rents for $170/hour, and I'm looking into buying a $25-50,000 plane to get that per-hour cost down. But what about one of my cheaper hobbies, photography? That's $500+ for a decent camera, another $500-1000+ for a starter set of lenses, plus light boxes/travel to outdoor locations/etc to actually take any pictures of anything. I have friends that have cars as their hobby and even a cheap track-worthy car is a few thousand dollars, plus assorted hundreds to thousands of dollar upgrade expenses. Want a new gaming PC? $1000+ easily. Take a vacation? $500+ for airline tickets, plus hundreds of dollars for a hotel room, plus whatever you want to do on the trip. Hell, even a dinner date at a decent restaurant is going to be more expensive than 40k when you look at it in per-hour terms. 40k is only expensive from the point of view of children with very limited gift money, or people working low-end jobs where everything is expensive.
IMO where this translates to community behavior is that more expensive hobbies require a better job, and a better job requires things like basic social skills and bathing every day. The TFG Nurgle cultist might be able to get a minimum-wage job at the local Walmart and save up enough money to buy a box of space marines (especially if they get into MTG and make a bunch of money ripping off kids), but I doubt I'm going to run into them at the airport or at a nice restaurant.
Hell, I'm trying to get into shooting, starting with building an AR-15. You can be cheap and build one for like $4-500, or you can go balls out and spend $3000 on top-of-the-line, competition-level parts. And that's not even counting the hundreds of rounds of ammo, the membership at a shooting range (which can range between $15/mo at a good indoor range or a $3000 one-time fee and $450/yr for an amazing outdoor gun club).
40k was incredibly expensive back in 2007 when I was making minimum wage and $50 for a box of terminators was absurd. Now that I'm making decent money, it's far more about priorities than whether or not I can afford it.
vaklor4 wrote: In what fantasy country do you live in where 40k is cheap compared to most hobbies? In card games like M:TG you can spend one hundred dollars and have a stacked deck ready for local play, or spend 20 dollars and have a tabletop casual ready deck. Or alternatively, Herolix, where if you want to go meta competitive, you barely need to break above the 100 dollar mark to get fully prepared. Or just buy a single brick and have a wide range of models you can play dozens of games with.
In the real world, where gaming of any kind is cheap. First of all, you aren't getting a MTG deck for $20-100 unless you only play in a group of people where everyone agrees to limit their spending to that level. If you want to play even semi-competitively you're spending hundreds of dollars per deck and changing them frequently as the format rotates. Second, adult hobbies get really expensive. The plane I fly? Rents for $170/hour, and I'm looking into buying a $25-50,000 plane to get that per-hour cost down. But what about one of my cheaper hobbies, photography? That's $500+ for a decent camera, another $500-1000+ for a starter set of lenses, plus light boxes/travel to outdoor locations/etc to actually take any pictures of anything. I have friends that have cars as their hobby and even a cheap track-worthy car is a few thousand dollars, plus assorted hundreds to thousands of dollar upgrade expenses. Want a new gaming PC? $1000+ easily. Take a vacation? $500+ for airline tickets, plus hundreds of dollars for a hotel room, plus whatever you want to do on the trip. Hell, even a dinner date at a decent restaurant is going to be more expensive than 40k when you look at it in per-hour terms. 40k is only expensive from the point of view of children with very limited gift money, or people working low-end jobs where everything is expensive.
IMO where this translates to community behavior is that more expensive hobbies require a better job, and a better job requires things like basic social skills and bathing every day. The TFG Nurgle cultist might be able to get a minimum-wage job at the local Walmart and save up enough money to buy a box of space marines (especially if they get into MTG and make a bunch of money ripping off kids), but I doubt I'm going to run into them at the airport or at a nice restaurant.
Weather or not the hobby is expensive has to do with how much you bring in, screw how much other things cost.
For me, 40k is very expensive, but I have a collection form my younger, more Income flush years when I lived with family, in the real world, the $50 for the new codex goes to groceries.
40k may not be "expensive" per se, but the model kits, rulebooks and to an extent the paints (stupid pots) are pretty lousy value. 40k is expensive for what you receive in return for the money that represents your time and effort.
vaklor4 wrote: In what fantasy country do you live in where 40k is cheap compared to most hobbies? In card games like M:TG you can spend one hundred dollars and have a stacked deck ready for local play, or spend 20 dollars and have a tabletop casual ready deck. Or alternatively, Herolix, where if you want to go meta competitive, you barely need to break above the 100 dollar mark to get fully prepared. Or just buy a single brick and have a wide range of models you can play dozens of games with.
In the real world, where gaming of any kind is cheap. First of all, you aren't getting a MTG deck for $20-100 unless you only play in a group of people where everyone agrees to limit their spending to that level. If you want to play even semi-competitively you're spending hundreds of dollars per deck and changing them frequently as the format rotates. Second, adult hobbies get really expensive. The plane I fly? Rents for $170/hour, and I'm looking into buying a $25-50,000 plane to get that per-hour cost down. But what about one of my cheaper hobbies, photography? That's $500+ for a decent camera, another $500-1000+ for a starter set of lenses, plus light boxes/travel to outdoor locations/etc to actually take any pictures of anything. I have friends that have cars as their hobby and even a cheap track-worthy car is a few thousand dollars, plus assorted hundreds to thousands of dollar upgrade expenses. Want a new gaming PC? $1000+ easily. Take a vacation? $500+ for airline tickets, plus hundreds of dollars for a hotel room, plus whatever you want to do on the trip. Hell, even a dinner date at a decent restaurant is going to be more expensive than 40k when you look at it in per-hour terms. 40k is only expensive from the point of view of children with very limited gift money, or people working low-end jobs where everything is expensive.
IMO where this translates to community behavior is that more expensive hobbies require a better job, and a better job requires things like basic social skills and bathing every day. The TFG Nurgle cultist might be able to get a minimum-wage job at the local Walmart and save up enough money to buy a box of space marines (especially if they get into MTG and make a bunch of money ripping off kids), but I doubt I'm going to run into them at the airport or at a nice restaurant.
Hell, I'm trying to get into shooting, starting with building an AR-15. You can be cheap and build one for like $4-500, or you can go balls out and spend $3000 on top-of-the-line, competition-level parts. And that's not even counting the hundreds of rounds of ammo, the membership at a shooting range (which can range between $15/mo at a good indoor range or a $3000 one-time fee and $450/yr for an amazing outdoor gun club).
40k was incredibly expensive back in 2007 when I was making minimum wage and $50 for a box of terminators was absurd. Now that I'm making decent money, it's far more about priorities than whether or not I can afford it.
if 40k models had the same price point for an individual item, nobody would play.
the scope on my long range rifle would get me a nice warlord titan(that's just the optic, not including; rifle, ammo, case....). at least with guns they have some other purpose(home defense) than fun. can't exactly have my salamanders securing the homestead(would be nice).
What drives me mad is that one lying WAAC player destroyed an entire group of people that were looking for a fun way to spend some free time.
And Reemule... no, we do not need more WAAC players, we need more players that want everyone to have fun... if you need something to get your ego up, then swallow steroids and pump iron all day... at least then nobody else's day is ruined.
I found a group of people playing other wargames (KoW, historic stuff,...) and they seem to be about having a fun time with friends... all that competitive stuff ruins the game.
I play(ed) T'au and I got tons of stupid comments about them being too strong, I only were about winning, "f@$£ing fish"... but I only chose them because I liked the background story, liked most of the models, never played the power lists and therefore never won... and the one being the biggest jerk about it was the WAAC player who always played the strongest armies with the strongest combos... ruined the game for me that I did spend too much time and money on.
Blastaar wrote: 40k may not be "expensive" per se, but the model kits, rulebooks and to an extent the paints (stupid pots) are pretty lousy value. 40k is expensive for what you receive in return for the money that represents your time and effort.
Quite so; and what's worse the low value investments are almost all right at the start ( Full codex/rulebook/chapter approved/??? + starter paints + model tools ). Once you've passed that, unless you can cash out intelligently, the value of your investement ( inc. time and scheduling with peeps) pays only around game #50 when you can play almost any level of opponent and both get some fun out of it.
If you've held on until then you're probably never going to escape
Blastaar wrote: 40k may not be "expensive" per se, but the model kits, rulebooks and to an extent the paints (stupid pots) are pretty lousy value. 40k is expensive for what you receive in return for the money that represents your time and effort.
I disagree. Value is what you make of it. In terms of time+effort/money, you get out what you put in. I am building up a primaris dark angels force, and a death guard warband. Probably for kill team, and maybe small 500-1000point games (specific format name eludes me, but it's essentially warmachine/hordes scale - dudes and walkers. Biggest thing in the format is a dreadnought). You need to stop thinking about it purely in terms of the amount of plastic you get.
Now my dark imperium box set took me about two months to work through. And that is probably with 4-6 hours per model. I am going all out on modelling, and painting them. I spend some of a recent bonus on intercessors, plague marines and reivers. Again, for the cash investment, the value/enjoyment I am getting out of it is immense when I factor in how much time and enjoyment I am getting, just out of building and painting them. In term of gaming, they'll last me the rest of my life.
That's value.
Now I take the wife out to dinner. I can pay £70 -£100 for two decent-to-good steaks, and a few beers. Now, in terms of 'value', is that 300g to 400g bit of meat worth £50? I mean, I can get a meal and cook it and home for the barest fraction of that, if I want. But still, a good steak is worth every penny, even if at the end of the day all it accomplishes is coming out the other end the next day.
We can spend £20-£30 on having a few beers on a Fridays or Saturday night. If you define 'value' by the fact that all we get is multiple trips to the bathroom, and a sore head the next day, it's rubbish. I guarantee you we'll make a good night of it though.
Let's fight about this for years. I for one feel the OP is wrong and that all 40kers are upright, bathing members of society who are the pinnacle of social graces! But of course, anyone who disagrees with the OP will be wrong and part of the problem. I am a dirty jerkist who openly supports poor hygiene. At least that's what the OP will say instead of attacking my argument...
You produced no argumemt. Simply a statement.
Stop listening to Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro. You'll never learn hoe to produce a logical argument with them. Simply strawmen and accusation of strawmen
I recall a man from a local game shop. He was an employee. Painted beautiful armies. Nice guy. Stunk up a storm and not just in the shop but everywhere. I saw him in the university gym and yup he was stinky there too. To be fair however i have the same problem and this is that the stink is in the shirts. In summer if i dont use a ton of oxygen bleach then the shirts themselves come alive and with any exposure to humid air start to smell like rancid smoked sausage. If my wife does the laundry then i might get three hours out of a shirt. Maybe 30mins! If i do it then ok. All day is possible... But then again i have the benefits of 50yrs and advanced degrees in chemistry to draw on while others including that stinky games shop guy did not. He was just a college dude who didnt know how to get his shirts clean. Anyways that guy ended up moving to work at whitedwarf. His old armies from the shop ended up in white dwarf and he ended up in white dwarf advising how to paint so well. and now ... I dunno where he us but maybe still with gw. Hopefully he got some help with his laundry.
hmm, I don't know, I've witnessed worse than your list during maybe 1 week in certain jobs. That said I do have a pet theory that GW business practices have shaped their fanbase
negatively.
8. Afro space marines sounds really cool actually. Was it like 80's disco afros on space marines? lol... If so, that is awesome.
Just black skinned sm.
That's just racism then. I wouldn't have a single issue with an entire chapter of dark skinned space marines. Hell, that's basically the Salamanders right there. Anyone who starts causing crap over the skin color of someone else's miniatures (whether they be all white or all black or all asian) is not worth wasting your time on. I would never play with that person again.
Let's fight about this for years. I for one feel the OP is wrong and that all 40kers are upright, bathing members of society who are the pinnacle of social graces! But of course, anyone who disagrees with the OP will be wrong and part of the problem. I am a dirty jerkist who openly supports poor hygiene. At least that's what the OP will say instead of attacking my argument...
You produced no argumemt. Simply a statement.
Stop listening to Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro. You'll never learn hoe to produce a logical argument with them. Simply strawmen and accusation of strawmen
That was... a joke. If those people you mentioned are celebrities of some sort I have no idea who they are. Ben Shapiro? Isn't he an accidental injury lawyer? Had something to do with a hammer? Anyways, anyone who thinks 40kers are stinky is... probably right. We do smell bad.
Elbows wrote: Wargaming is time-intensive, but generally quite cheap compared to many other product-based hobbies. Is it cheap for a high school kid? No. Cheap for a person coming out of college with debt in a starting career? No. But, compare it to building cars, firearms, golf, etc...and it's laughably inexpensive.
Is it more expensive than jogging, or hiking? Sure.
Because it's a hobby you have little to no say in who joins the "community". What you can do is choose who you wish to spend time with. Our local community is perhaps 40-50 active members. I hang out, and game with about ten of them, having learned that the other 30+ are people I'm fine not spending time with. I'm not desperate to game and needing to go find pick-up games, etc. The repeated complaints you see on sites like this normally boil down to people insisting on playing strangers, or being unwilling to confront donkey-caves in their small gaming circle. That's just lack of proper communication, and a willingness to bring up and uncomfortable subject. It happens.
It's a strong reason why garage-hammer is so prevalent in our local group. We could go bump elbows at a small local gaming store, surrounded by loud MTG players, or we can chill out in someone's living room - enjoy dinner, and some beer and play on our own tables. The decision is pretty easy.
man US is such a stranger country where owning guns or building your own cars is considered an avarge joes hobbies. At least no one mentioned their high seas yachts collections, or something like that.
GW games players tend to be stranger the those of other games though. I don't know why though. Maybe it is the cost of the army, and big the differences between power levels of different factions are. Maybe it is the normal people vs the fluff players waging war. Other games don't seem to have such problems, but maybe I am wrong.
At least GW games players seem to have it better then MtG, that started to some strange policy things the last 2-3 years, and brought some really odd people in to the game, while driving away a lot of the core players.
Stop listening to Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro. You'll never learn hoe to produce a logical argument with them. Simply strawmen and accusation of strawmen
Who should we be listening to then? Not saying I get all the right wing policy thinkers in the west, but the biggest gun nuts from alabam seem to make more sense, then people claiming there is gazilion of genders, and no difference between males and females, which are sociohistorical constructs anyway.
Let's fight about this for years. I for one feel the OP is wrong and that all 40kers are upright, bathing members of society who are the pinnacle of social graces! But of course, anyone who disagrees with the OP will be wrong and part of the problem. I am a dirty jerkist who openly supports poor hygiene. At least that's what the OP will say instead of attacking my argument...
You produced no argumemt. Simply a statement.
Stop listening to Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro. You'll never learn hoe to produce a logical argument with them. Simply strawmen and accusation of strawmen
Ben Shapiro... urgh what a total ... sure he has made some good points but by god he is unbearable.
Jordan Peterson however is an extremely intelligent thoughtful man who is very careful with his speech, he is constantly and probably lied about by the mainstream media and still somehow manages to rise above it, anyone that thinks he cannot produce a logical argument simply lacks the adequate language skills to understand him, all he does is make logical arguments, I watched a CBS Canada interview with him today and then watched the full interview... I have never seen such a clear cut case of media bias and lies designed to discredit a person ever, it was sad to watch.
Not to derail though, I may make an off topic discussion about this.
On topic: 40k is popular, it attracts a massive crowd and as such you will encounter more of the socially awkward people, MTG is exactly the same, but it doesn’t represent the vast majority of players.
Blastaar wrote: 40k may not be "expensive" per se, but the model kits, rulebooks and to an extent the paints (stupid pots) are pretty lousy value. 40k is expensive for what you receive in return for the money that represents your time and effort.
I disagree. Value is what you make of it. In terms of time+effort/money, you get out what you put in. I am building up a primaris dark angels force, and a death guard warband. Probably for kill team, and maybe small 500-1000point games (specific format name eludes me, but it's essentially warmachine/hordes scale - dudes and walkers. Biggest thing in the format is a dreadnought). You need to stop thinking about it purely in terms of the amount of plastic you get.
Now my dark imperium box set took me about two months to work through. And that is probably with 4-6 hours per model. I am going all out on modelling, and painting them. I spend some of a recent bonus on intercessors, plague marines and reivers. Again, for the cash investment, the value/enjoyment I am getting out of it is immense when I factor in how much time and enjoyment I am getting, just out of building and painting them. In term of gaming, they'll last me the rest of my life.
That's value.
Now I take the wife out to dinner. I can pay £70 -£100 for two decent-to-good steaks, and a few beers. Now, in terms of 'value', is that 300g to 400g bit of meat worth £50? I mean, I can get a meal and cook it and home for the barest fraction of that, if I want. But still, a good steak is worth every penny, even if at the end of the day all it accomplishes is coming out the other end the next day.
We can spend £20-£30 on having a few beers on a Fridays or Saturday night. If you define 'value' by the fact that all we get is multiple trips to the bathroom, and a sore head the next day, it's rubbish. I guarantee you we'll make a good night of it though.
'Value' is what you make of it.
I don't really consider modeling and painting to be part of what I'm paying for when I buy a model kit. I enjoy doing those things, but for me they are usually a means to an end of playing games with those models. I do, to a point, see the kit's usefulness in-game as part of its value. Not how likely I can win with it, but how much I can do things with it, and on that 40k fails because most things have very little impact or in-game use individually. Adding one infantry squad to your army enhances gameplay very little, you need to add two and so on. Whereas with a game like Malifaux, for example, a single purchase can be a useful addition to your crew.
With GW you don't get out what you put in- $900+ on one army, hours and hours of modeling and painting (not everyone paints swiftly) and once you get them on the table, you're rewarded for your investment of time and effort with a shallow gameplay experience. A bit OT maybe, but still. For a game that costs so much, in money, time, and effort the payoff simply isn't there. Per the thread title it is "kinda weird" that GW is held to a different, oftentimes lower standard by players than other companies.
Formosa wrote: Jordan Peterson however is an extremely intelligent thoughtful man who is very careful with his speech, he is constantly and probably lied about by the mainstream media and still somehow manages to rise above it, anyone that thinks he cannot produce a logical argument simply lacks the adequate language skills to understand him, all he does is make logical arguments, I watched a CBS Canada interview with him today and then watched the full interview... I have never seen such a clear cut case of media bias and lies designed to discredit a person ever, it was sad to watch.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. No. Jordan Peterson is a fraud and a liar and it's amazing that anyone listens to him. Just look at his nonsense about lobsters, or even the original pronoun debacle that first got him attention. He may present a superficial appearance of competence, but underneath it is just garbage.
Let's fight about this for years. I for one feel the OP is wrong and that all 40kers are upright, bathing members of society who are the pinnacle of social graces! But of course, anyone who disagrees with the OP will be wrong and part of the problem. I am a dirty jerkist who openly supports poor hygiene. At least that's what the OP will say instead of attacking my argument...
You produced no argumemt. Simply a statement.
Stop listening to Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro. You'll never learn hoe to produce a logical argument with them. Simply strawmen and accusation of strawmen
That was... a joke. If those people you mentioned are celebrities of some sort I have no idea who they are. Ben Shapiro? Isn't he an accidental injury lawyer? Had something to do with a hammer? Anyways, anyone who thinks 40kers are stinky is... probably right. We do smell bad.
the irony of accusing someone of shaping their arguments with the help of two people who had nothing to do with your post, then in the next breath talking about strawmen arguments.
Formosa wrote: Jordan Peterson however is an extremely intelligent thoughtful man who is very careful with his speech, he is constantly and probably lied about by the mainstream media and still somehow manages to rise above it, anyone that thinks he cannot produce a logical argument simply lacks the adequate language skills to understand him, all he does is make logical arguments, I watched a CBS Canada interview with him today and then watched the full interview... I have never seen such a clear cut case of media bias and lies designed to discredit a person ever, it was sad to watch.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. No. Jordan Peterson is a fraud and a liar and it's amazing that anyone listens to him. Just look at his nonsense about lobsters, or even the original pronoun debacle that first got him attention. He may present a superficial appearance of competence, but underneath it is just garbage.
Formosa wrote: Jordan Peterson however is an extremely intelligent thoughtful man who is very careful with his speech, he is constantly and probably lied about by the mainstream media and still somehow manages to rise above it, anyone that thinks he cannot produce a logical argument simply lacks the adequate language skills to understand him, all he does is make logical arguments, I watched a CBS Canada interview with him today and then watched the full interview... I have never seen such a clear cut case of media bias and lies designed to discredit a person ever, it was sad to watch.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. No. Jordan Peterson is a fraud and a liar and it's amazing that anyone listens to him. Just look at his nonsense about lobsters, or even the original pronoun debacle that first got him attention. He may present a superficial appearance of competence, but underneath it is just garbage.
Yeah I have no horse in this race but after reading his book and watching some of his "classes" ... he gets a big "Meh". I give him a 5,5/10.
Antonio García Trevijano. Thats one man (Sadly he passed away the past year) one should realy listen too, if you can find videos/podcasts of him with english subtitles. His talks are mostly about the political situation in Spain (He was afterall the leader of the platform for the democratization of Spain during the "transition" after Franco's death), but he touches other themes like USA politics, Death Penalty, etc...
Antonio García-Trevijano Forte (18 July 1927 – 28 February 2018) was a Spanish republican, a political activist, and an author. He was born in Granada, noted for his activism against the Franco dictatorship. He was referred to by the University Press of America as "a leading figure in Spanish politics since the late 1960s and probably one of the most important intellectuals of the 20th century in political and aesthetic theory"
But I'll stop with the offtopic. I just wanted to give attention to this great man, because he should have had it, but sadly was negated the merits he deserves for political reasons, and passed away with really not many people noticing it.
I used to be really into 40k/LOTR and spend most of my time at a GW and gaming clubs back when I was a teenager in the early 2000s. I got back into the hobby last year, and I have to say the crowd seems to have changed a lot in that time.
Back in 2004 there seemed to be a lot of the stereotypical nerd crowd who matched up with OPs encounters (and worse), but now it seems to be a wider spectrum of people in the hobby. There's still the occasional guy you do don't want to be around for hygiene or personality reasons, but it's mostly nice, normal people.
Back in the day I feel like you could see (or smell) a 40k player coming, now it could be anyone!
Formosa wrote: Jordan Peterson however is an extremely intelligent thoughtful man who is very careful with his speech, he is constantly and probably lied about by the mainstream media and still somehow manages to rise above it, anyone that thinks he cannot produce a logical argument simply lacks the adequate language skills to understand him, all he does is make logical arguments, I watched a CBS Canada interview with him today and then watched the full interview... I have never seen such a clear cut case of media bias and lies designed to discredit a person ever, it was sad to watch.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. No. Jordan Peterson is a fraud and a liar and it's amazing that anyone listens to him. Just look at his nonsense about lobsters, or even the original pronoun debacle that first got him attention. He may present a superficial appearance of competence, but underneath it is just garbage.
In all fairness Peregrine you are pretty biased when it comes to this kind of thing, you may not like the guy, and thats totally fine, not everyone does, but he is not a fraud, he is not a liar, and every time I have seen this character assassination come up, not a single person has been able to point to an actual lie or prove he is a fraud, they just bring up the usual tired old "he is alt right" (provably wrong), he is racist, sexist etc. as if that is the be all and end all.
I will go open up a post in off topic though so we can discuss this as this is not the place for it.
Peregrine wrote: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. No. Jordan Peterson is a fraud and a liar and it's amazing that anyone listens to him. Just look at his nonsense about lobsters, or even the original pronoun debacle that first got him attention. He may present a superficial appearance of competence, but underneath it is just garbage.
I never heard of him before this, but I looked him up. Dude has a PHD in clinical psychology and taught at Harvard. His papers and lectures have been well regarded and it appears he has a very good academic reputation.
I may disagree with the opinion of someone like that, but I would very much think carefully before claiming that what they have to say is "garbage". I am a California Liberal btw, which is about as "left" as you can get in the U.S without joining fringe groups full of crazies.
Formosa wrote: Jordan Peterson however is an extremely intelligent thoughtful man who is very careful with his speech, he is constantly and probably lied about by the mainstream media and still somehow manages to rise above it, anyone that thinks he cannot produce a logical argument simply lacks the adequate language skills to understand him, all he does is make logical arguments, I watched a CBS Canada interview with him today and then watched the full interview... I have never seen such a clear cut case of media bias and lies designed to discredit a person ever, it was sad to watch.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. No. Jordan Peterson is a fraud and a liar and it's amazing that anyone listens to him. Just look at his nonsense about lobsters, or even the original pronoun debacle that first got him attention. He may present a superficial appearance of competence, but underneath it is just garbage.
In all fairness Peregrine you are pretty biased when it comes to this kind of thing, you may not like the guy, and thats totally fine, not everyone does, but he is not a fraud, he is not a liar, and every time I have seen this character assassination come up, not a single person has been able to point to an actual lie or prove he is a fraud, they just bring up the usual tired old "he is alt right" (provably wrong), he is racist, sexist etc. as if that is the be all and end all.
I will go open up a post in off topic though so we can discuss this as this is not the place for it.
After the initial post by Khornate mentioning Peterson I was about to make such thread myself, so please do make one.
Formosa wrote: Jordan Peterson however is an extremely intelligent thoughtful man who is very careful with his speech, he is constantly and probably lied about by the mainstream media and still somehow manages to rise above it, anyone that thinks he cannot produce a logical argument simply lacks the adequate language skills to understand him, all he does is make logical arguments, I watched a CBS Canada interview with him today and then watched the full interview... I have never seen such a clear cut case of media bias and lies designed to discredit a person ever, it was sad to watch.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. No. Jordan Peterson is a fraud and a liar and it's amazing that anyone listens to him. Just look at his nonsense about lobsters, or even the original pronoun debacle that first got him attention. He may present a superficial appearance of competence, but underneath it is just garbage.
In all fairness Peregrine you are pretty biased when it comes to this kind of thing, you may not like the guy, and thats totally fine, not everyone does, but he is not a fraud, he is not a liar, and every time I have seen this character assassination come up, not a single person has been able to point to an actual lie or prove he is a fraud, they just bring up the usual tired old "he is alt right" (provably wrong), he is racist, sexist etc. as if that is the be all and end all.
I will go open up a post in off topic though so we can discuss this as this is not the place for it.
After the initial post by Khornate mentioning Peterson I was about to make such thread myself, so please do make one.
Khornate25 wrote: Hi people.
Not sure if this is the right spot or if it should go on the off-topic forum (feel free to move the thread if need be).
So this is something that came up to my mind while I was introducing a friend to W40k and beginning to pop Buproprion.
I started playing 40k in 2010 (was 20 back then). Since then I've met several players and played several games.
There were some times I've mumbled that 40k was the worst game ever and other times I've felt it was the greatest invention of the human mind. Something, on the other hand, stayed the same over the years : I seriously despise a big part of the players I've met. Not just the WAAC, but even the regular ones.
It is just me or are some W40k players just total jerks ? Here are some examples of behaviours I've witnessed that are not related to WAAC (mostly in the Grand Montreal Area but also in Gatineau) :
1- A store employee telling some players girlfriends that w40k didn't attract girls because they just suck at wargaming.
2-A player yelling at his girlfriend to shut up until he finished his game.
3-An opponent of mine who came to a match while unbathed.
4-A store owner telling a new player (teenager) how his painting skills were lame.
5-A store owner telling me that I could only use stuff bought in his store (it is just me or are store owners douchebags ?).
6-A duo of players laughing at a beginner who wanted to play T'au.
7-My unbathed opponent telling me I should never play T'au because of North Korea and that I was a fool if I believed in climate change (while he was enlightened because he was a catholic).
8- A player complaining about the afro space marines of his opponent.
I could go on and on, especially after 8 years, but to sum it up :
Most ''veterans" of the hobby in my area seem to be a bunch of jerks that have poor relationship skills (and hygiene), which scare off young newcomers (and that's without their obsession with WAAC).
These day I mostly play with people that I know aren't jerks or WAAC, which is mostly newcomers that either play with other newcomers or me.
So, are older w40k players more inclined to being jerks ?
Reading the first two, just sounds like virtue signalling. I really doubt a store owner said that. Your whole list sounds made up, I've been playing since 1994 and haven't seen that much you've listed especially not with store owners, they have a living to make I doubt any store owner would say that gak. The only problem I've had are the know-it-alls of list building, who can't keep anything to themselves even if you tell them you are just playing a fun list and they smellies.
There are a lot of weirdos in nerd hobbies and a lot of people in these hobbies suffer from serious issues related to social propriety. It's not just 40K, they exist everywhere.
Nearly everyone I've met while gaming has been a functional person who can behave themselves properly, I think, and both my FLGS owners are actually good at their jobs (personable, understanding, willing to go the extra mile for customers, welcoming, etc...) so I'm pretty lucky, I guess.
EDIT: I will note that the local 40K players tend to be a little more... eccentric than other game groups, but they're not bad people at all; they're polite, groomed, etc
Delvarus Centurion wrote: especially not with store owners, they have a living to make I doubt any store owner would say that gak
To be fair, quite a few store owners are less business experts and more random gamers who managed to con a bank into giving them a business loan to subsidize their gaming hobby. There's a reason the average life expectancy of a game store is somewhere around the average time required for the loan money to run out. I can absolutely imagine that kind of game store owner saying customer-losing things that would horrify a competent store owner in any other market.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: especially not with store owners, they have a living to make I doubt any store owner would say that gak
To be fair, quite a few store owners are less business experts and more random gamers who managed to con a bank into giving them a business loan to subsidize their gaming hobby. There's a reason the average life expectancy of a game store is somewhere around the average time required for the loan money to run out. I can absolutely imagine that kind of game store owner saying customer-losing things that would horrify a competent store owner in any other market.
Yeah, I gotta agree. Store owners are no less capable of this behavior than anyone else, and hobby store owners are generally a particularly unsuccessful business, so there's nothing that says someone must be particularly tactful and aware of smart customer interaction just by running one. And while most have been fine, I've seen a few definitely reaching towards that less-than-pleasant extreme.
To be on topic, for a change, it's true that nerd hobbies attract some pretty strange people. A lot of us weirdos do suffer from some sort of social paranoia or whatever. That is why it's important for game stores to be comfortable places. It's good for the goblins to get out and be with other goblins. I used to be a pretty awkward person in public, always felt like a fish out of water even into my 30s. Going to a game store and interacting with other people in that setting helped me overcome that.
Who would have guessed huh? DC used to be awkward...
Funny thing, I'm more shy in the game store than most anywhere else. I'm naturally a shy and socially awkward person, but various jobs in customer service made me get over that at least to the point that I could do my job well. When I meet a stranger that I'm probably never going to see again or I'm dealing with someone as part of my job I have no problem talking to them. When I walk into a game store I get all nervous and try too hard not to put my foot in my mouth because I hope to be on friendly terms with the people there for some time to come.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Funny thing, I'm more shy in the game store than most anywhere else. I'm naturally a shy and socially awkward person, but various jobs in customer service made me get over that at least to the point that I could do my job well. When I meet a stranger that I'm probably never going to see again or I'm dealing with someone as part of my job I have no problem talking to them. When I walk into a game store I get all nervous and try too hard not to put my foot in my mouth because I hope to be on friendly terms with the people there for some time to come.
My first job was customer service too. It did wonders for my people skills to the point where I had friends commenting to me that I was almost a completely different person just a year later. I was extremely introverted and had really poor social skills that tended to put people off before that job.
Let's fight about this for years. I for one feel the OP is wrong and that all 40kers are upright, bathing members of society who are the pinnacle of social graces! But of course, anyone who disagrees with the OP will be wrong and part of the problem. I am a dirty jerkist who openly supports poor hygiene. At least that's what the OP will say instead of attacking my argument...
You produced no argumemt. Simply a statement.
Stop listening to Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro. You'll never learn hoe to produce a logical argument with them. Simply strawmen and accusation of strawmen
That was... a joke. If those people you mentioned are celebrities of some sort I have no idea who they are. Ben Shapiro? Isn't he an accidental injury lawyer? Had something to do with a hammer? Anyways, anyone who thinks 40kers are stinky is... probably right. We do smell bad.
the irony of accusing someone of shaping their arguments with the help of two people who had nothing to do with your post, then in the next breath talking about strawmen arguments.
Peregrine wrote: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. No. Jordan Peterson is a fraud and a liar and it's amazing that anyone listens to him. Just look at his nonsense about lobsters, or even the original pronoun debacle that first got him attention. He may present a superficial appearance of competence, but underneath it is just garbage.
I never heard of him before this, but I looked him up. Dude has a PHD in clinical psychology and taught at Harvard. His papers and lectures have been well regarded and it appears he has a very good academic reputation.
I may disagree with the opinion of someone like that, but I would very much think carefully before claiming that what they have to say is "garbage". I am a California Liberal btw, which is about as "left" as you can get in the U.S without joining fringe groups full of crazies.
A reasonable person on the left coast?
Thought i might see a leprachaun first.
Exalted comment.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: especially not with store owners, they have a living to make I doubt any store owner would say that gak
To be fair, quite a few store owners are less business experts and more random gamers who managed to con a bank into giving them a business loan to subsidize their gaming hobby. There's a reason the average life expectancy of a game store is somewhere around the average time required for the loan money to run out. I can absolutely imagine that kind of game store owner saying customer-losing things that would horrify a competent store owner in any other market.
Yeah, I gotta agree. Store owners are no less capable of this behavior than anyone else, and hobby store owners are generally a particularly unsuccessful business, so there's nothing that says someone must be particularly tactful and aware of smart customer interaction just by running one. And while most have been fine, I've seen a few definitely reaching towards that less-than-pleasant extreme.
yeah, but in todays world where everyone tapes or videos everyone an action like the ones OP described are rather rare to to happen in public. Of course this can be something like we get on a daily basis with tweets or posts, being spinned the way you want them to spin. In fact if one considers the last few years there is a higher chance that someone situations described as Right wing Gun nuts starting a PoC hunt preparations or Leftists selling planning to overthrow the goverment, are jokes, some over the top of interpretation of a joke or an out right lie on the side of the person describing the situation.
Now this is of course doesn't mean that there are no horrible do not exists in the world, and that some may be playing w40k. I is just that the chance of seeing a w40k player slaping his girlfriend in the face and sending here off to make him a sandwitch is rather low on the probability scale. And the argument that we somehow have to "fix" the w40k community, because there are people doing is a stupid one.
But then again we live in a world where intentions stoped mattering, and what matters is someones fake or real outrage. And if it is someones way to earn money you can get outraged by almost everything. To use a Polish example here, and for some people to have a laugh, some dudes are puting shirts on monuments in Poland that say stuff like "Constitution and Law are important", they are being hunted by the state for anti stata behaviour One could think that for a state, someone who is all about obeying the law would be a prime example of a good citizent.
RatBot wrote: There are a lot of weirdos in nerd hobbies and a lot of people in these hobbies suffer from serious issues related to social propriety. It's not just 40K, they exist everywhere.
Nearly everyone I've met while gaming has been a functional person who can behave themselves properly, I think, and both my FLGS owners are actually good at their jobs (personable, understanding, willing to go the extra mile for customers, welcoming, etc...) so I'm pretty lucky, I guess.
EDIT: I will note that the local 40K players tend to be a little more... eccentric than other game groups, but they're not bad people at all; they're polite, groomed, etc
You’re not the only one. I was reading this thinking, “Wow, it must suck for some people.” The worst hygiene issue we have at my FLGS is a guy who likes to come play after his workout (and shower) who smells faintly of the body wash/deodorant be just used.
This post is obviously bs. Racism, sexism at my local store! The owner was in on it! Also jordan and ben are bad! (How on earth was that subject even relevent)
Yea ive never heard this before. I was also born yesterday.
I don't think the oddballs really are much more numerous in 40k than the outside world.
If you've ever worked a customer service job, you'd be keenly aware of how screwed up people are in general. 8/10 customers are at least on the surface - acceptable. They aren't screaming, don't smell, don't have the 'crazy' look. 2/10 are 'warning: do not engage" types.
Occasionally this 'acceptable' crowd become regulars and end up talking to you a bit more. A good 30-40% of them turn out to be weirdos, creeps, perverts, or have some other malfunction that makes you wish you weren't required to interact with them.
The point is: the 40k crowd seem proportionally stranger because you have to interact with them in a manner that is deeper than basic transactional interactions.
In more isolated social circumstances - eg: work, school, or social functions - you are brought together by similar life circumstances, socio-economic class, age, or skills. With 40k the only common bond is the enjoyment of this game and even within that subset is a variety of interests - painting, lore, tactics. Certainly we're all within the sub-category of 'nerd' to some degree - but the flavor varies.
SirWeeble wrote: I don't think the oddballs really are much more numerous in 40k than the outside world.
If you've ever worked a customer service job, you'd be keenly aware of how screwed up people are in general. 8/10 customers are at least on the surface - acceptable. They aren't screaming, don't smell, don't have the 'crazy' look. 2/10 are 'warning: do not engage" types.
Occasionally this 'acceptable' crowd become regulars and end up talking to you a bit more. A good 30-40% of them turn out to be weirdos, creeps, perverts, or have some other malfunction that makes you wish you weren't required to interact with them.
The point is: the 40k crowd seem proportionally stranger because you have to interact with them in a manner that is deeper than basic transactional interactions.
In more isolated social circumstances - eg: work, school, or social functions - you are brought together by similar life circumstances, socio-economic class, age, or skills. With 40k the only common bond is the enjoyment of this game and even within that subset is a variety of interests - painting, lore, tactics. Certainly we're all within the sub-category of 'nerd' to some degree - but the flavor varies.
So then, your saying that roughly half the people in the world are "weirdos, creeps, perverts, or have some other malfunction that makes you wish you weren't required to interact with them", yes?
If you could clarify your definitions, that'd be very helpful.
The difference today, comparing to the past, was that two people who are fans of enemy teams could play a game of w40k against each other, and not politics were coming up durning the game. Right now the possible reaction to playing someone you disagree with, is to hit them with a padlock. And what is worse, people expect to be called heros for doing that.
Karol wrote: The difference today, comparing to the past, was that two people who are fans of enemy teams could play a game of w40k against each other, and not politics were coming up durning the game. Right now the possible reaction to playing someone you disagree with, is to hit them with a padlock. And what is worse, people expect to be called heros for doing that.
What!?
Where do you play 40k games that turn into beat downs with padlocks?
Karol wrote: The difference today, comparing to the past, was that two people who are fans of enemy teams could play a game of w40k against each other, and not politics were coming up durning the game. Right now the possible reaction to playing someone you disagree with, is to hit them with a padlock. And what is worse, people expect to be called heros for doing that.
What!?
Where do you play 40k games that turn into beat downs with padlocks?
The same place where it's ok to smash an opponent's army so they have to forfeit, or threaten to beat them if they don't. I very much hope Karol is just a troll.
Karol is referring to a very toxic political climate here in Poland nowadays, which can result in things getting out of hand quickly when in-game antipathies and bad dice rolls get someone over the edge. Basically, supporters of a political side that lost last elections are being permanently and deliberately heated up with intention to provoke overthrowing current government on the streets and this makes all sorts of interpersonal interactions here somewhat tricky.
Karol wrote: The difference today, comparing to the past, was that two people who are fans of enemy teams could play a game of w40k against each other, and not politics were coming up durning the game. Right now the possible reaction to playing someone you disagree with, is to hit them with a padlock. And what is worse, people expect to be called heros for doing that.
What!?
Where do you play 40k games that turn into beat downs with padlocks?
Yeah, Stegadons in socks are the preffered weapon of choice...
nou wrote: Karol is referring to a very toxic political climate here in Poland nowadays, which can result in things getting out of hand quickly when in-game antipathies and bad dice rolls get someone over the edge. Basically, supporters of a political side that lost last elections are being permanently and deliberately heated up with intention to provoke overthrowing current government on the streets and this makes all sorts of interpersonal interactions here somewhat tricky.
I'm sorry to hear things are so rough.
My family does from there, but I have virtually no information about them.
nou wrote: Karol is referring to a very toxic political climate here in Poland nowadays, which can result in things getting out of hand quickly when in-game antipathies and bad dice rolls get someone over the edge. Basically, supporters of a political side that lost last elections are being permanently and deliberately heated up with intention to provoke overthrowing current government on the streets and this makes all sorts of interpersonal interactions here somewhat tricky.
I'm sorry to hear things are so rough.
My family does from there, but I have virtually no information about them.
It's nowhere near as rough as in Bangladesh, but one political side tries to push a narrative that it is exactly like it is there, or like it was here during '80 before comunism fell, or close to German occupation/WWII era... And because large groups fell for this narrative it is best to not talk politics with anyone whose attitude to politics you cannot trust to be reasonable. Family dinners/holidays are best conducted as "ceasefire time" or else it gets ugly.
Karol wrote: The difference today, comparing to the past, was that two people who are fans of enemy teams could play a game of w40k against each other, and not politics were coming up durning the game. Right now the possible reaction to playing someone you disagree with, is to hit them with a padlock. And what is worse, people expect to be called heros for doing that.
What!?
Where do you play 40k games that turn into beat downs with padlocks?
Yeah, Stegadons in socks are the preffered weapon of choice...
I keep my 2E Blood Angels dreadnought in a sock handy - with banner pole, of course.
Karol wrote: The difference today, comparing to the past, was that two people who are fans of enemy teams could play a game of w40k against each other, and not politics were coming up durning the game. Right now the possible reaction to playing someone you disagree with, is to hit them with a padlock. And what is worse, people expect to be called heros for doing that.
What!?
Where do you play 40k games that turn into beat downs with padlocks?
Yeah, Stegadons in socks are the preffered weapon of choice...
I keep my 2E Blood Angels dreadnought in a sock handy - with banner pole, of course.
See this is what I don't get, not only are you damaging your own metal model while using it like a weapon, when you could just use a stone, but it is easy to trace to you.nUnless in us everyone owns BA dreads painted or unpainted the same way.
Karol wrote: The difference today, comparing to the past, was that two people who are fans of enemy teams could play a game of w40k against each other, and not politics were coming up durning the game. Right now the possible reaction to playing someone you disagree with, is to hit them with a padlock. And what is worse, people expect to be called heros for doing that.
What!?
Where do you play 40k games that turn into beat downs with padlocks?
The padlock thing is american. But we have something like the city of knifes here. In one of the biggest polish cities, ex capital, there are two hooligan gangs, they are the only two that did not "sign" the hooligan anti weapon packt in the early 90s. And with that cutting of hands, stabbging over being from the wrong district are very common. It also makes for very interesting w40k community, because you can't really go and play at the "enemy" store without risking to be at least beat up. think Crips and Bloods, but in a country where gun access is close to zero.
The same place where it's ok to smash an opponent's army so they have to forfeit
If he is too slow to move away to, and flips the table himself, it is him who smashs the army. Although am not saying that the person that did start it wasn't an a-hole. But he was our a hole, and our a holes get the pass to do anything to other people. If the dude tried to do it back home, it would be his last game of anything ever.
1- A store employee telling some players girlfriends that w40k didn't attract girls because they just suck at wargaming.
If he was a jerk and didn't know them on a level to joke around, then this guy sucks a lot. But we have actually skilled female players and our joke is 'girls don't even play 40k! It's not allowed!' as a gag when they win or play well. Someone heard it and got concerned, brought it to the manager- who explained that it was our running gag with our friends, and not to be taken seriously and was never something we directed at people outside our circle of friends. Sometimes there's confusion.
Khornate25 wrote: 2-A player yelling at his girlfriend to shut up until he finished his game.
Sounds like a jerk, but one of my exes was notoriously whiny and annoying if anything I was doing didn't directly involve her (and she had no desire to play the game, nor any desire to do something else on the one day a week I got to play, but demanded she accompany me). Granted, I didn't tell her 'shut up', I pulled her aside and away from people to let her know it was annoying. (In all fairness, her objective- by her own admission- was to pester me until I got annoyed enough to just quit playing and we could leave, because that'd worked before.) Good riddance to her, but this dude you mention sounds like a tool that needs to learn to deal with his relationship squabble privately or find a means to game without the girlfriend.
And don't get me wrong, in my experience a LOT of guys that show up the FLGS with their [non-player observer] girlfriend tend to be obnoxious tools for some reason, maybe to show off or something.
Khornate25 wrote: 3-An opponent of mine who came to a match while unbathed.
You must be new to this hobby.
Not flaming you, but seriously- this is a huge problem. People start talking about wanting to do this and that to the gaming community to 'improve' it, but we can't even get literally the same dudes all the damned time to wash themselves, wash their clothes, brush their teeth, and cover their buttcracks and/or hairy bellies. No, really- until this is fixed I don't want to hear a damned word about 'changing the gaming community for the better', because it's like getting mauled by a chihuahua and claiming you can fist-fight a bear and win.
No, this has a special kind of salt in a wound for me- because I genuinely, discretely, and politely told a store employee that one of his customers smelled very unpleasant and unclean... the response was to eject ME from the store. Fortunately, it's a hair salon now.
Khornate25 wrote: 5-A store owner telling me that I could only use stuff bought in his store (it is just me or are store owners douchebags ?).
If they're GW models, and the store sells GW produces... then the first thing you should do is send a polite letter to GW with the store's information, explaining the incident. Trust me. I've seen his crap before, and that one polite email will get that store owner a phone call.
Now, caveat to this: I've seen this done reasonably (yes, reasonably!) one time- and the person spent absolutely no money in the store. At all. Zero. He just showed up with a game from elsewhere, that the store didn't even sell, took up tables for hours, and did absolutely nothing to give the store owner the idea he should carry the game or support it. He just came, played with his group on a table for free, bringing in his outside food and drink, and left. The store owner explained that the tables were for 'customers' so the guy got buttmad and left, and never came back.
Khornate25 wrote: 6-A duo of players laughing at a beginner who wanted to play T'au.
Back in 7th Edition, this would be called 'making sure the beginner actually has friends after a year'. Now, it's just kind of a jerk move. But granted, there's a bit of ribbing with all of us and our armies. I find it hilarious that people keep painting their Black Templars stupid colors like blue, yellow, dark green... I'm not sure what this garbage is, and all these people say 'other chapters of Space Marines' but that's not even real, like that dumb "Indiana Jones 4" that DOES NOT EXIST STFU ABOUT IT OKAY
Khornate25 wrote: 7-My unbathed opponent telling me I should never play T'au because of North Korea and that I was a fool if I believed in climate change (while he was enlightened because he was a catholic).
See, I love these people. They're a source of hilarity. Even I, as someone folks would consider a 'right winger', love ridiculing these types. I like keeping them around, because it's a constant reminder of what happens when you drink too much of a political Kool-Aid.
But no, really- "No political, religious, or ideological discussions, debates, or arguments allowed in this store. If you can't talk about the gaming, and something everyone can enjoy- then leave or don't talk at all and let the dice speak." This is the ver batim sign my friend made for his private gaming club's game room. It should be hung above literally every table, every threshold, every single visible area in every FLGS on the planet.
Khornate25 wrote: 8- A player complaining about the afro space marines of his opponent.
Complaining, or criticizing? It does look silly. Funny, but silly. Maybe he had no sense of humor?
Khornate25 wrote: Most ''veterans" of the hobby in my area seem to be a bunch of jerks that have poor relationship skills (and hygiene), which scare off young newcomers (and that's without their obsession with WAAC).
I'll argue with you here. Most 'veterans of the game' are the best players that know having a good time at the table is more important than winning. In my personal experience, the most scummy players out there are the generation of kids that spent the last decade or so screeching slurs and obscenities into an XBox headset or screaming for their mom to renew their WoW account. And for some reason, we decided that gaming needed to be 'inclusive' but we don't know what that even means. People will get booted out of their local gaming community for a damned Trump bumper sticker, but we turn into quivering little wimps when we need to tell someone they stink like a hot gym sock on sweaty balls or that they're being an obnoxious brat at the table. God forbid we hurt someone's feelings because they don't know how to buy two dollar bar of soap but they grabbed 3 knights off the shelf the week before. Oh, no, we can't just tell some overcompensating WAAC tool to take his models and let the new guys learn the game without pounding them into dust. Nope, that'd take having guts, and let's face it- a LOT of gamers are absolutely gutless.
Khornate25 wrote: These day I mostly play with people that I know aren't jerks or WAAC, which is mostly newcomers that either play with other newcomers or me.
Newbies are usually impressionable, if they're young. They'll adopt the attitudes of the people who get to them first. WAAC jerks will ALWAYS zero in on the FNG. Why? It's easy to beat him, and he can write it off as 'teaching you the game'. Which really, when you think about it, is like me saying "I'm going to teach you how to play football" and then having six NFL Linebackers run you over repeatedly. It doesn't do anything but make them hyper aggressive, spend more money than they should, and fail to learn some of the more simple and basic aspects of an army (those last two are REALLY important). And worst of all- a lot of these new guys that end up making first contact with the WAAC Jerks and Slimeballs of all sorts? Well, they're usually the new guys that get one 'Start Collecting' box and end up selling it for $40.00 a month later and never look back. Some even become worse and *gasp* go play Magic cards. *Shudder*
So find the OLDER players that are actually good people. They exist, but if they don't? I'll tell you what happend... the WAAC guys and stinky people and other obnoxious idiots ran them off. Because really, the greatest thing I ever did was put up an ad for a private gaming club in my city. In the first month alone, we had more applicants than the three FLGS stores had players on Saturdays. And nearly every single one that we accepted- we accepted on specific criteria to avoid the problems from the FLGS. And every single one of these guys was a veteran player that got disgusted with the local metas and just quit years ago, but held on to their stuff and re-invested in the game to play somewhere clean, chill, and friendly.
Also we have beer. That helps.
But if you got this far, one thing to keep in mind: In all my years the 'worst' 40k players I've met, that behave in similar manner to the ones you've described? Eh... I hate to contradict my own statements, but a lot of these guys have actual legitimate mental problems, to some degree or another... and most of us just aren't aware of it, maybe even the player isn't aware of it and hasn't had it treated- or the worst case is when they ARE aware, and no one's pulled them aside and told them to cool it because it doesn't give you a blank check to be an obnoxious moron.
8. Afro space marines sounds really cool actually. Was it like 80's disco afros on space marines? lol... If so, that is awesome.
Just black skinned sm.
That's just racism then. I wouldn't have a single issue with an entire chapter of dark skinned space marines. Hell, that's basically the Salamanders right there. Anyone who starts causing crap over the skin color of someone else's miniatures (whether they be all white or all black or all asian) is not worth wasting your time on. I would never play with that person again.
Unfortunately racism is not unique to 40k either.
Someone told me that my black-skinned Sisters couldn't work because "Sisters have to be pure" .
Thanksfully it's pretty rare, most people dgaf.
Karol wrote: man US is such a stranger country where owning guns or building your own cars is considered an avarge joes hobbies.
Formosa wrote: Jordan Peterson however is an extremely intelligent thoughtful man who is very careful with his speech
You mean Pr Word Salad?
I had one of his fan try to show me how he was a genius taken out of context. The fan posted this :
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdtTYiCUwAIC7An.jpg "Hey let's jump from casual sex to divorce courts without mentioning any logical link between those and feth logic and making sense" .
Please, I beg of you fellas- let's not go TOO political with this, okay?
We get it. Your ideology is better. Whichever one it is. Your Youtube man is better than my Youtube man. Your ideas, despite you never holding any political office and probably having a D- in Economics, History, and Civics class- are all the perfect solution to complex problems in today's society, despite you also never having ever lived in a vasty different social landscape than the one you grew up in.
I'm not talking to anyone directly, I'm just coming back from a short hiatus and I'm not really feeling the pissing contest about politics on a forum where generally every one of us can find common ground and put the pettiness aside and focus on hating something important.
Like WAAC players, stores that don't deal with stinky players, and individuals who think there's a 4th Indiana Jones movie.
Yeah, I'm changing my approach to discussions here, I think.
At my LFGS if your yelling at women, your going out the door. If your hitting women, your getting the chair and then out the door. And possibly hog tied on the sidewalk till the local constabulary arrives.
If you smell, your getting told to go shower.
If you go on tilt, you take a few minutes to get your emotions under control and you buy your opponent a drink.
If your showing up with a legal army, and winning, your doing what is right, but its not going to last. people around here aren't that dumb. Its not like building an Anti horde force, or anti Knight force is hard.
Maybe some of your older gamers could step up and show some example to these kids.
SHUT UP WESLEY. I'm no fan of Will, but it's a simple statement. Long before him, we had a dude that may or may not have existed and been nailed to a cross, and he kinda said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". And it was in the RED WORDS, so you know it was important. Whether you believe or not (and I'm an atheist), living by that code is solid advice.
"Dont' start no s**t, won't be no s**t" works as well. And my father, bless the man's soul, he always taught me "Be polite and friendly to everyone you meet, look them in the eye and smile- treat them with courtesy... but always have your heels dug in."
Reemule wrote: At my LFGS if your yelling at women, your going out the door. If your hitting women, your getting the chair and then out the door. And possibly hog tied on the sidewalk till the local constabulary arrives.
I'm pretty sure if some douchebag hit a woman at any of the places I play...
...well, if the woman didn't knock his teeth out, he'd probably be located in a dumpster somewhere. Or several, depending on the circumstances. Sorry, I don't care who you are- you don't abuse people, and abusing your significant other (regardless of their gender or your own) is a vile thing because that should be your closest ally and you're betraying that loyalty, love, and friendship.
Reemule wrote: If you smell, your getting told to go shower.
Fortunately- and I mean, this baffles me it's so great- the stores where I'm from have had too many complaints about a few small groups of nasties, and have told them flat out: "You get one warning to go home and fix your hygiene. If we have to tell you again, you are permanently banned". Added bonuses: Banned from one, banned from all. Store owners talk. And tournament organizers that hold their events outside the stores are supporting the ban list.
Reemule wrote: If you smell, your getting told to go shower.
If your showing up with a legal army, and winning, your doing what is right, but its not going to last. people around here aren't that dumb. Its not like building an Anti horde force, or anti Knight force is hard.
We have a beautiful system that seems to work out locally. We have those guys that really rock when they play- a lot of win. That's commendable, and certainly ideal tournament stuff. But the reputation for throwing down a brutal list against casual or new gamers for a casual pick-up game? Yeah, that's the guy sitting at the table looking at his model cases and sighing while everyone else is over there laughing and having a good time playing.
Reemule wrote: Maybe some of your older gamers could step up and show some example to these kids.
Bingo.
And, if you can't find the example: Be the example.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: on a forum where generally every one of us can find common ground and put the pettiness aside and focus on hating something important.
Like WAAC players, stores that don't deal with stinky players, and individuals who think there's a 4th Indiana Jones movie.
I think FLGS should be the one last haven for people who smell and can't go around anywhere else, but I agree, there are only 3 Indiana Jones movies:
- Raiders of the Lost Ark
- Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom
- Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
.
Holy wars will be fought over whether Last Crusade, Temple of Doom or Lost Ark is the bad Indiana Jones that must be purged from history .
Great minds etc.
Karol wrote: The difference today, comparing to the past, was that two people who are fans of enemy teams could play a game of w40k against each other, and not politics were coming up durning the game. Right now the possible reaction to playing someone you disagree with, is to hit them with a padlock. And what is worse, people expect to be called heros for doing that.
What!?
Where do you play 40k games that turn into beat downs with padlocks?
Yeah, Stegadons in socks are the preffered weapon of choice...
The old pewter stegadon is my home defense weapon of choice!
I think FLGS should be the one last haven for people who smell and can't go around anywhere else, but I agree, there are only 3 Indiana Jones movies:
- Raiders of the Lost Ark
- Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom
- Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Holy wars will be fought over whether Last Crusade, Temple of Doom or Lost Ark is the bad Indiana Jones that must be purged from history .
Great minds etc.
I want you both to know, and I mean this in the nicest way possible.
If I lived near you I would poop in your water sources.
Because of this.
You vile monsters.
May whatever gods exist cast you into the blackest part of some kind of hell, with every copy of that NONEXISTENT MOVIE SHUT UP ABOUT IT
You know what?
I hope you guys find un-altered versions of the classic Star Wars trilogy and your dog chews it up.
I hope you guys find un-altered versions of the classic Star Wars trilogy and your dog chews it up.
Original trilogy?
Do you mean The Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith?
The bestest Star Wars!!! But I didn't know they were altered.
(Fun fact: the movie I would rank #1 among my favorite is the second installment of a series, but I've never watched any other installment of the series, and based on what I heard on the first installment, I don't feel very inclined to . Will you guess the series?)
My dogs chewing the original Star Wars trilogy VHS could happen. I have the Temple of Doom on VHS somewhere, but the dogs won't even touch it, they have way too good taste for that.
Thinking that Crystal Skulls is somehow super gak compared to the older Indy movies is a massive case of rose-tinted glasses. Sure, it is not amazing, but it is decent, and definitely leagues better than the Temple of Doom.
So then, your saying that roughly half the people in the world are "weirdos, creeps, perverts, or have some other malfunction that makes you wish you weren't required to interact with them", yes?
If you could clarify your definitions, that'd be very helpful.
Crimson wrote: Thinking that Crystal Skulls is somehow super gak compared to the older Indy movies is a massive case of rose-tinted glasses. Sure, it is not amazing, but it is decent, and definitely leagues better than the Temple of Doom.
Everything you said here is basically Kali-Ma to my heart.
Crimson wrote: My dogs chewing the original Star Wars trilogy VHS could happen. I have the Temple of Doom on VHS somewhere, but the dogs won't even touch it, they have way too good taste for that.
Thinking that Crystal Skulls is somehow super gak compared to the older Indy movies is a massive case of rose-tinted glasses. Sure, it is not amazing, but it is decent, and definitely leagues better than the Temple of Doom.
Ahah you were serious? I was just kidding with Adeptus Doritos! I actually have only watched Crystal Skull I don't know if the other Indiana Jones movies are good .
Ahah you were serious? I was just kidding with Adeptus Doritos! I actually have only watched Crystal Skull I don't know if the other Indiana Jones movies are good .
Well the two that aren't the Temple of Doom are good!
1- A store employee telling some players girlfriends that w40k didn't attract girls because they just suck at wargaming.
Never Seen this in the GW stores I've been to, the staff have always been nice and friendly.
2-A player yelling at his girlfriend to shut up until he finished his game.
Sounds like a typical arse or a annoying partner
3-An opponent of mine who came to a match while unbathed.
The store I go to has a message next to the painting tables about personal hygiene among other stuff, like no coke cans for killer cans or dreadnoughts, but the only thing like this I've encountered asides from looks of beards is a female that was the typical gamer stereotype, greasy hair, unwashed, dirty clothes.
4-A store owner telling a new player (teenager) how his painting skills were lame.
If this is aimed at the GW stores then I think its a lie, never seen any member of staff say that, they always offer help and advice, because being like that is very likely to make them loose customers.
5-A store owner telling me that I could only use stuff bought in his store (it is just me or are store owners douchebags ?).
All GW stores only allow you to use GW stuff in there stores, its up to the staff if they allow the small third party parts or forge world models.
6-A duo of players laughing at a beginner who wanted to play T'au.
I had both a friend who played and a staff member telling me when I wanted to start in 7th with a wraithhost army that I should prepare to have no friends and both in a joking manner and explanation.
7-My unbathed opponent telling me I should never play T'au because of North Korea and that I was a fool if I believed in climate change (while he was enlightened because he was a catholic).
Sounds like a lie or a really crazy dude.
8- A player complaining about the afro space marines of his opponent.
sounds like a raciest guy, only time I've had someone complain to be was my snake ladys in aos because the guy had a fear of snakes
Seems to me this is just a SJW post or what not as it really is just all the typical stereotypes of the table top gamer thrown up, sure there can be bad people but that's in everything, these always that arsehole somewhere and these always that smelly person somewhere and these always someone that just complains all the time somewhere, not just in warhammer.
Crimson wrote: Thinking that Crystal Skulls is somehow super gak compared to the older Indy movies is a massive case of rose-tinted glasses. Sure, it is not amazing, but it is decent, and definitely leagues better than the Temple of Doom.
Everything you said here is basically Kali-Ma to my heart.
Two days before seeing Crystal Skull my wife informed me that she hadn't seen any of the movies, so we marathoned them the day before. My impression was definitely that Crystal Skull is NOT the worst film of the 4.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the subject of the "kinda weird crowd", I often wonder if the longevity of the game is why this feels a little more prevalent than it does in some other systems. Nerd culture hasn't always been as accepted in the mainstream as it is now, and particularly in the 90's, table top gaming was often a niche where people who felt socially marginalized could run the show. At the time, I remember there being a lot of groups where the lack of social grace was a draw for those that lacked them. I feel like games that have continued from this era are a little more prone to this kind of stuff, though in truth, anything significantly popular can build up a pretty toxic crowd over time.
Yep. Some of the worst people I've met in person or online are solely 40k players who act as if you should worship them as devine beings. While themselves accepting of low standards and having no self pride.
Thankfully I don't need to talk to them in person anymore and the games I concentrate on have human beings that play them that actually give a gak.
Karol wrote: The difference today, comparing to the past, was that two people who are fans of enemy teams could play a game of w40k against each other, and not politics were coming up durning the game. Right now the possible reaction to playing someone you disagree with, is to hit them with a padlock. And what is worse, people expect to be called heros for doing that.
What!?
Where do you play 40k games that turn into beat downs with padlocks?
Yeah, Stegadons in socks are the preffered weapon of choice...
Where do you get socks small enough to fit a Stegadon?
I think that niche hobbies tend to attract niche personalities. Rock climbing seems cool, because it's dangerous and athletic and outdoors, but everybody I've met that does it is a pretty weird person.
Basically, if you're moving past very general hobbies (pick up athletics, watching sports, TV, movies, pop music) you just get odder.
Gaming sort of gets it the worst, because most gamers were, or still are, people for whom social inclusion isn't taken for granted. We want to be inclusive, both to help the hobby grow, and also because we all feel bad about being excluded in the past. The problem is, that feeds some really bad actors. There's a great piece of this: http://plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html
If I were to play armchair psychiatrist, I would guess that of the three most common geek gaming hobbies (RPGs, minis, and CCGs), CCGs are the most mainstream, so aberrant behavior gets snuffed out. RPGs are super low cost and built around intimate groups, so they can carefully select who they play with, while also grabbing many of the most quite/passive folks. Tabletop requires more money, and also requires playing strangers for a long session. It's a great outlet for the frustrated wanna be alpha to be vent their rage onto people.
Polonius wrote: I think that niche hobbies tend to attract niche personalities. Rock climbing seems cool, because it's dangerous and athletic and outdoors, but everybody I've met that does it is a pretty weird person.
Basically, if you're moving past very general hobbies (pick up athletics, watching sports, TV, movies, pop music) you just get odder.
Gaming sort of gets it the worst, because most gamers were, or still are, people for whom social inclusion isn't taken for granted. We want to be inclusive, both to help the hobby grow, and also because we all feel bad about being excluded in the past. The problem is, that feeds some really bad actors. There's a great piece of this: http://plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html
If I were to play armchair psychiatrist, I would guess that of the three most common geek gaming hobbies (RPGs, minis, and CCGs), CCGs are the most mainstream, so aberrant behavior gets snuffed out. RPGs are super low cost and built around intimate groups, so they can carefully select who they play with, while also grabbing many of the most quite/passive folks. Tabletop requires more money, and also requires playing strangers for a long session. It's a great outlet for the frustrated wanna be alpha to be vent their rage onto people.
Generally when I see really bad behavior its defensive in nature. Either an alpha of a small pack afraid of a challenger or collections of people that see themselves as outsiders afraid that newcomers will reject them from the group they established.
Turnip Jedi wrote: Fortunately my nerd-herd are a pristine bunch of rightfully smug liberal elites, regardless of age, identity and wotnot
Well thats not true either but in this post thought era it is at least a fluffier delusion than the OP's lazy wargaming tropes 101
While I didn't particularly want to challenge him outright as being a 'liar', I did seem to wonder if things were omitted or misconstrued. I was, in all honestly, almost expecting to see something about MAGA hats and southern accents.
And then the whole FLGS clapped.
But I won't call the OP a liar, because in truth I've seen my share of trashy people from all ends of the political and ideological spectrums. Everyone is on a dial, man- no matter what you're on, you've got a dial. Most people are tuned toward 'moderate', 'reasonable', or even 'passionate'... but there's just enough people dialed all the way towards "ABSOLUTELY F***ING STUPID" in every single movement, belief system, political group, etc. In truth, I genuinely believe we cheapen discussions by simply assuming that people who are supporters/members/believers of [INSERT THING] are just like the guy dialed to "ABSOLUTELY F***ING STUPID".
Because they're not, in fact- the overwhelming majority aren't even close to being that insane. But as we all know, every village has its idiot- and he's loud and hard to miss, so he tends to be the first one that sticks out in your mind when you think about the village.
But hey, who needs to bother judging people based on their actions, attitude, and merits and listen to what they're saying when you can just point and scream and make accusations to stir up the outrage mob of low-information idiots? It's not like anyone's ever, say... convinced someone to leave the KKK by taking the time to listen to them and talking to them, right? Yeah, screaming names at them and yelling and repeating bad stereotypes on the internet, that'll make a difference! No way will doing this repeatedly make it become a meme, right?
Not a dig on the OP, I promise. As I said, I'm not calling you a liar or even really casting doubt that you've seen things like this before. Maybe it just seems like you were leaning toward a certain thing you were biased against, and it stood out to someone. That's all. I'd be lying if I said I've never seen that kind of silliness in some way or another.
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LunarSol wrote: Generally when I see really bad behavior its defensive in nature. Either an alpha of a small pack afraid of a challenger or collections of people that see themselves as outsiders afraid that newcomers will reject them from the group they established.
There are those, man. Some guy has found that ONE THING in life he can actually not fail at miserably, and he's vicious about protecting his status. I know it almost sounds cliche', but absolutely every single guy I've seen that acts like an arrogant douche-tool at the table is actually some kind of slob that has a lot in life he's failing at. It's a weird compensation.
Other than that, and I might have already said this- but a majority of the 'worst people' I've ever had to deal with usually have some mental problems that are beyond 'mild', they're just usually neglecting to get treatment or simply didn't have the proper counseling, guidance, and support to cope with people socially.
I am a carpenter, I work really hard. I sweat. Everyone on the site is sweating and we all smell. That is a situation in which all parties must simply accept that everyone is stinky. You get these guys now who put on pit stick over lunch and complain about BO... No dude, you're a sensitive pussycat on a construction site, man up or go home. You can't complain about body odour in that setting.
In a game store, where there should be ample opportunity for getting clean before arriving, there is no excuse for BO. What? Shuffling those magic cards made you lose 5lbs? No. You sweat a lot. Make an effort for yourself and the people around you. Mostly do it for yourself though. Once you remove that repellant smog layer you will find more people want to engage with you. Take it from a smoker. People who don't smoke or have quit hate me because I smoke like a chimney. You walk into a clean game store after having a smoke and you can watch the noses wrinkle.
The game store I harangue has a sign in the bathroom, right under a can of men's and ladies spray deodorant, it reads: Please, Help Your Self. They go through a fair bit of spray...
darkcloak wrote: Also, about body odour...
...
The game store I harangue has a sign in the bathroom, right under a can of men's and ladies spray deodorant, it reads: Please, Help Your Self. They go through a fair bit of spray...
A large majority of the people I've dealt with that just absolutely reek of B.O. aren't 'sweaty' or 'not wearing deodorant'...
Trust me when I say this, as a veteran that's done his time on deployments where there were no showers, field exercises, etc...
...this is straight-up unwashed butt and wearing the same clothes over and over. You can blast an entire can of industrial-strength weapons-grade deodorant/antiperspirant under their pits but it's not going to get rid of that stink. It's sweaty balls and dirty after-poop butthole, unwashed underwear that's been on for days, clothes that haven't been washed, and general bacterial body funk from not getting into a shower and scrubbing yourself down.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: I was, in all honestly, almost expecting to see something about MAGA hats and southern accents.
I think that if you mapped political alignments for various gaming groups, tabletop wargamers would include a much stronger rightward cadre than other games. The combination of militarism, competition, and subject matter lead many communities to have a pretty strong rightward lean. (Malifaux is probably the biggest exception, which even I'll joke seems to be the preferred game for people with complicated gender or sexual identity).
You can get annoyed at the implications of political views and behavior, but with tabletop wargaming, it's there. To be fair, the jerks at a World of Darkness LARP probably are pretty far to the left.
darkcloak wrote: Also, about body odour...
...
The game store I harangue has a sign in the bathroom, right under a can of men's and ladies spray deodorant, it reads: Please, Help Your Self. They go through a fair bit of spray...
A large majority of the people I've dealt with that just absolutely reek of B.O. aren't 'sweaty' or 'not wearing deodorant'...
Trust me when I say this, as a veteran that's done his time on deployments where there were no showers, field exercises, etc...
...this is straight-up unwashed butt and wearing the same clothes over and over. You can blast an entire can of industrial-strength weapons-grade deodorant/antiperspirant under their pits but it's not going to get rid of that stink. It's sweaty balls and dirty after-poop butthole, unwashed underwear that's been on for days, clothes that haven't been washed, and general bacterial body funk from not getting into a shower and scrubbing yourself down.
FOR DAYS.
Trust me, I KNOW THAT STINK.
Yeah but when you go to the game store, you're not still being a Catachan. You don't come off deployment, still with a bullet in you, directly from the battlefield! You do have a chance to scrape the crud off and relearn how to speak before you grab your game case and head off for a friendly 500 pointer.
One thing that really struck me was how often people said things like "most people are jerks." I really feel that having a misanthropic attitude makes it more likely to see the world as full of awful people.
Plenty of people are good, or bad, but most people are just people. I'm not exactly pollyana, but I find that some of the pessimism and disdain for others is really unwarranted. Further, I think that when we really see the world as full of terrible people, that's what we get from it.
I feel like it should be said at this point that while I preach a mighty order of self help the point isn't so that other people will think you are not stinky. The idea is that by improving your self, your mental, physical and spiritual self, you gain a greater measure of self respect. By being more comfortable with yourself and more confident, you will be greater able to enjoy life. Does anyone really want to sit at home all day in front of a computer and have no friends? People don't want to be trapped by their flaws, but often their mindset is so self reinforcing it becomes impossible to overcome it.
Grimtuff wrote: And here was me thinking this thread was going to be about the tendency for certain GW fanbois to chug too much of the proverbial kool aid and treat GW/40k like it is some kind of religion that must be defended unto death amongst all attackers from without and within against an perceived slight on Holy GW.
That's it! You and me, rapiers at 40 paces. Meet behind the dumpster in Nottingham at high noon on the solstice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Polonius wrote: One thing that really struck me was how often people said things like "most people are jerks." I really feel that having a misanthropic attitude makes it more likely to see the world as full of awful people.
Plenty of people are good, or bad, but most people are just people. I'm not exactly pollyana, but I find that some of the pessimism and disdain for others is really unwarranted. Further, I think that when we really see the world as full of terrible people, that's what we get from it.
I've been to a few areas where right off the cuff I've been "warned" about some player or group of area players. Generally I find gak starting to be a lucrative hobby in just about any fandom or organized societal event. Just look at US politics...
Polonius wrote: You can get annoyed at the implications of political views and behavior, but with tabletop wargaming, it's there. To be fair, the jerks at a World of Darkness LARP probably are pretty far to the left.
It's not so much an annoyance, but rather just an awareness that some individuals out there tend to be a bit more blind to the idiot within their village, because of their bias. And I'm no exception, no one is. It takes a bit of patience and awareness but eventually you start to spot them and acknowledge them (because if your 'village' is very important to you, your own village idiot is worse for you than the rival village's idiot).
darkcloak wrote: Yeah but when you go to the game store, you're not still being a Catachan. You don't come off deployment, still with a bullet in you, directly from the battlefield! You do have a chance to scrape the crud off and relearn how to speak before you grab your game case and head off for a friendly 500 pointer.
At least, I hope you had time...
I can assure you, after a deployment or field training- the very last thing I want to be around is a bunch of other stinky dudes. Emphasis mostly on the 'dude' part. And while I love wargaming, I usually want to spend a couple of days scrubbing myself down and sleeping and having beers. So this will never be a concern, I promise.
Togusa wrote: I've been to a few areas where right off the cuff I've been "warned" about some player or group of area players. Generally I find gak starting to be a lucrative hobby in just about any fandom or organized societal event. Just look at US politics...
We have a few individuals in my gaming areas that we warn others off. For various reasons- some take painting commissions after showing off amazing models, and then you get an army back that looks like it was painted with a shotgun and there are missing pieces and even models (especially Forge World components) that are sometimes not-so-cleverly replaced with an inferior or knock-off version. Others are just altogether awful people to play against, because they prey on new players or casual players new to the area- and lay down some unholy Tournament Net List and pound them into oblivion. Some can't seem to win a 'friendly game' without running around and thumping their chest and gloating about how quick they took out your whatever to everyone they know FOR WEEKS.
I know this may sound an awful lot like bullying or cruelty, but those individuals? I have absolutely no problem letting everyone know exactly who they are. If I had it my way they'd be banned from every store within 100 miles, but for now I'm rather pleased to see that most of them are usually sitting in some corner with their models and no one interacting with them. When they improve their attitudes and behavior, I'll be the first to have a game (and I do often test the waters), but until then- they can sit alone and watch everyone else have fun, and eventually maybe that little light bulb will click on.
I think FLGS should be the one last haven for people who smell and can't go around anywhere else, but I agree, there are only 3 Indiana Jones movies:
- Raiders of the Lost Ark
- Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom
- Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Holy wars will be fought over whether Last Crusade, Temple of Doom or Lost Ark is the bad Indiana Jones that must be purged from history .
Great minds etc.
I want you both to know, and I mean this in the nicest way possible.
If I lived near you I would poop in your water sources.
Because of this.
You vile monsters.
May whatever gods exist cast you into the blackest part of some kind of hell, with every copy of that NONEXISTENT MOVIE SHUT UP ABOUT IT
You know what?
I hope you guys find un-altered versions of the classic Star Wars trilogy and your dog chews it up.
The dog you love.
So you can't even be really mad at him about it.
Take that.
I'm actually crying.
Jokes on you, I have my unaltered versions of the classic star wars trilogy on DVDs and USB flash drives squirreled in various locations including a fireproof safe, with redundant copies in case of damage or corruption of the files.
Let's have a round of applause to congratulate all those people on here who feel the need to state that they wash their bodies using soap - well done!
Your medals are in the post you wonderful, wonderful people.
Do we really need yet another thread griping about the behaviour and cleanliness of other players? Do we really need to offer eachother congratulatory handshakes because we use deodourant? Is this what we need to massage our egos and feel superior? Why don't you... speak to these people? Maybe offer to even help them? Be the difference rather than yet another moaner.
The whole thing with people who obviously haven't bathed in quite some time is horrible... happened to me in MTG. Thankfully, I don't think I've had a problem with it (except maybe once in passing) when it comes to Warhammer. IMHO, that's just totally unacceptable.
Wulfmar wrote: Let's have a round of applause to congratulate all those people on here who feel the need to state that they wash their bodies using soap - well done!
Your medals are in the post you wonderful, wonderful people.
Do we really need yet another thread griping about the behaviour and cleanliness of other players? Do we really need to offer eachother congratulatory handshakes because we use deodourant? Is this what we need to massage our egos and feel superior? Why don't you... speak to these people? Maybe offer to even help them? Be the difference rather than yet another moaner.
So you're suggesting people offer to wash them and do their laundry for them instead of complaining? Most people don't say anything to the person because they want to avoid conflict. If you say something about the wrong person the store may turn on you. I know when I played magic there was a player who was a nightmare but nothing was ever done because he spent the most money. Doesn't matter how much a guy's BO bothers the other players, if he drops hundreds of dollars each visit the store owner is going to side with him.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: I was, in all honestly, almost expecting to see something about MAGA hats and southern accents.
I think that if you mapped political alignments for various gaming groups, tabletop wargamers would include a much stronger rightward cadre than other games. The combination of militarism, competition, and subject matter lead many communities to have a pretty strong rightward lean. (Malifaux is probably the biggest exception, which even I'll joke seems to be the preferred game for people with complicated gender or sexual identity).
I've never heard that, why would you say so?
Polonius wrote: You can get annoyed at the implications of political views and behavior, but with tabletop wargaming, it's there. To be fair, the jerks at a World of Darkness LARP probably are pretty far to the left.
There are all walks of life involved in all manner of hobbies.
I think 40k wargaming has not cornered the market on "strange".
You are also spending extended time in close proximity with a person for an hour or two so get to know them pretty good (like it or not).
I do admit as I get older, the Science Fiction Grimdark miniatures become more and more "toys" to the general population so can become a wee bit of a fringe pursuit for the over 30 crowd (I am almost pushing 50).
I figure if you are staring at models for hours as "angry" as GW ones it would leave a bit of a mark.
I also noticed many people on the autism spectrum really seem to be attracted to the game for some reason.
My son is geared toward being very competitive and seems to have little patience but putting together a few Ork models are happy times for him.
Crushing his enemy however is where the fun is... BUT as I have seen many times: we are all our own special snowflakes.
Just point out the rude behavior (many people can be oblivious to it) and take a pass on playing anyone unwilling to follow a few common social graces.
I AM strange but not awkwardly so (that I know of) and can barely bat an eye to those with the purple / green / red dyed hair / piercings / tattoos: anyone willing to take the steps to stand out more at the very least should have an audience. Don't stomp all over a person's fun or rights and the rest really is just details.
Wulfmar wrote: Do we really need yet another thread griping about the behaviour and cleanliness of other players? Do we really need to offer eachother congratulatory handshakes because we use deodourant? Is this what we need to massage our egos and feel superior? Why don't you... speak to these people? Maybe offer to even help them? Be the difference rather than yet another moaner.
Hold on, I'll be blunt with you. Don't take me for being rude, but let's be completely honest with one another.
If you want the TL;DR version I will summarize it: I could very well help them out instead of complaining. But this is NOT my problem to fix unless I work at or own the store in question. I'm not mopping the bathrooms at McDonald's, or re-organizing the shelves at Wal-Mart, and I'm not going to the doctor's office to stick a thermometer in some other patient's butthole. We're "Complaining and not doing something" because, we are customers and this is not our responsibility. And it can be a a liability if we make it ours. In other words, this is 'just complaining' because a lot of stores aren't dealing with the problem, and they need to know just how detrimental it can be.
For the more in-depth explaination-
We have absolutely no shortage of complaints about players being some kind of bigot (sexist, racist, homophobe, whatever) in nearly every forum for every type of multi-player social game imaginable. Not only do we have people sharing said stories (whether they are true or not is irrelevant); but we have individuals, group movements, campaigns, and even companies whose entire motivation is eliminating this sort of behavior in its entirety from the various gaming communities for various games.
Yet, for some reason, in every single gaming establishment I've frequented more than a handful of times for any significant period of time- someone smells like they've not washed in days. Not someone who's been sweating or forgot deodorant, or just forgot to brush their teeth, or maybe wore yesterday's socks... but a person who actually smells worse than some of the homeless people who spend days sleeping in the streets.
I know, you're just seeing more complaints. But there's a point here. I'm all for getting awful people like bigots to fix their attitudes and change or just go play elsewhere. But I don't have high hopes, because if we can't even solve something as simple as telling someone they need to go clean themselves and put on clean clothes- I really, really, really doubt people have the moral courage and intestinal fortitude to stand up to Johnny "Woman-Hater" McRacist. It's like telling me you're going to put out a raging house fire but you're shirking from a lit match.
So, before you say "Stop complaining and do something", I'll share a bit with you: Many of us HAVE done that. I can say I have more than once. And trust me, it's very difficult for me but I can very much explain with a great deal of discretion and courtesy that someone needs to take care of a problem.
I learned a long time ago that unless I'm an employee, I shouldn't be addressing the other customer about it. That's gotten very hostile by more than one person when I did, and I was downright polite and addressed the guy privately and nicely. Never again, lesson learned. After all, I'm also a customer and I shouldn't have to be doing what an employee or owner should be doing.
I've even engaged an employee about it before in one place, and still got tossed out. I'm just assuming there was some friendship or something, but that place's reputation was well-earned and it didn't last. Go figure.
And as I said before, a lot of this isn't a 'deodorant fix'. This is downright pure-body smell. Hair traps odors, unwashed clothing holds these odors and bacteria, and simply unwashed skin smells and you're covered in dead skin- not to mention a lot of people don't really clean their butts after they have a poop and sweat runs down the buttcrack and carries that poop-stink with the sweat-stink and makes everything worse every time they move.
I also understand that a lot of people like this may very well be mentally ill or have some other sort of problem. I get that, but while I do my very best to be as compassionate as possible regarding conditions- at the end of the day I shouldn't have to 'suck it up'. I shouldn't have to be the one taking care of a problem that an establishment is responsible for. And, I shouldn't have to risk getting sick because someone doesn't wash themselves and walks around the FLGS coughing, touching terrain and merchandise, etc and potentially spreading all kinds of potential disease.
Nearly every modern FLGS attempts to make itself a 'family environment' but a lot of these places have people so gross and nasty that I'd consider it safer to put my own kid to work in a factory during the industrial revolution than let him touch anything in the store.
Maybe it's because these stores are afraid to lose a customer- add that to the fact that a lot of players may just be afraid to address it and there's nowhere else to go and play instead. Maybe people are just as aware that I am that this person may have some condition or illness and they're afraid of some discrimination lawsuit. I don't know, there's plenty of reasons why this may not be fixed but the fact of the matter is that it needs to be, and people wouldn't be complaining if it weren't a reality.
And if I may be honest, I belong to two private gaming groups where I pay a membership fee (for food and terrain and such), and I can tell you that every single person in those gaming groups has expressed that their reason for wanting to play somewhere outside the FLGS is because they're sick and tired of a place having people who smell so bad- that it's embarrassing. I wouldn't want to bring a friend there to show him how to play and get him interested in the game. I wouldn't want my significant other showing up with me to meet people who play. And when it gets bad enough, I take my business away from the FLGS and start ordering my models online and play privately.
It's not 'our problem', it's on the stores. And people will keep complaining about it until the taboo of addressing it is gone. There certainly will be people offended, maybe a little outrage- but a bit of routine housekeeping is in order and no real fixes get implemented without a little bit of sweat and tears.
Talizvar wrote: There are all walks of life involved in all manner of hobbies.
I think 40k wargaming has not cornered the market on "strange".
It doesn't, not by a long shot. The thing is, we're social in a different way. If you want some strange characters and some people who are on a level that is mind-blowing? Go frequent some RPG pages. Trust me, the things there should be archived as some sort of museum attraction.
Let's fight about this for years. I for one feel the OP is wrong and that all 40kers are upright, bathing members of society who are the pinnacle of social graces! But of course, anyone who disagrees with the OP will be wrong and part of the problem. I am a dirty jerkist who openly supports poor hygiene. At least that's what the OP will say instead of attacking my argument...
Actually... no, you might not be part of the 'dirty/smelly' or 'TFG' parts of the 40k community, but an attitude like yours definitely puts you firmly into the 'Jerk40k' category.
I mean you attack the OP, state categorically that he is wrong without any actual proof to the contrary, and then say that -he- will randomly insult/attack you without responding with an actual argument (a crime that you just committed, but which the OP has so far made no signs of).
So yeh, hypocritical and jerky behaviour, you're the problem not the solution.
Grimtuff wrote: And here was me thinking this thread was going to be about the tendency for certain GW fanbois to chug too much of the proverbial kool aid and treat GW/40k like it is some kind of religion that must be defended unto death amongst all attackers from without and within against an perceived slight on Holy GW.
That's it! You and me, rapiers at 40 paces. Meet behind the dumpster in Nottingham at high noon on the solstice.
Ah americans and their lack of knowladge of the dueling art. If you are the one who challanges to a duel, it is your opponents right to pick the weapon.
I mean you attack the OP, state categorically that he is wrong without any actual proof to the contrary, and then say that -he- will randomly insult/attack you without responding with an actual argument (a crime that you just committed, but which the OP has so far made no signs of).
The burden of proof falls on the person that brings up a thesis. If someone claims X is a thing, that it is to him to prove that it is so. And it is everyones right to give arguments for it to not be so.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Yet, for some reason, in every single gaming establishment I've frequented more than a handful of times for any significant period of time- someone smells like they've not washed in days. Not someone who's been sweating or forgot deodorant, or just forgot to brush their teeth, or maybe wore yesterday's socks... but a person who actually smells worse than some of the homeless people who spend days sleeping in the streets.
I suspect, like many of your posts, this is hyperbolic nonsense. I've played a lot of games in a lot of different stores and I can't remember anyone who smelled worse than homeless people, not even close. A bit sweaty, especially on hot day with a large crowd? Yep. Smelling like oil/chemicals/etc because they came directly from work? Yep. But nothing like you're describing. If it has ever happened in my presence it's been so rare that I can't remember any incidents. TBH the worst I've smelled is the people who smoke outside and then insist on coming back in the store, and for some reason that's considered a socially acceptable activity even outside of gaming.
Ah americans and their lack of knowladge of the dueling art. If you are the one who challanges to a duel, it is your opponents right to pick the weapon.
You say this, but we actually know.
That's why when I'm challenged, the weapon I choose is hot dogs at noon.
Grimtuff wrote: And here was me thinking this thread was going to be about the tendency for certain GW fanbois to chug too much of the proverbial kool aid and treat GW/40k like it is some kind of religion that must be defended unto death amongst all attackers from without and within against an perceived slight on Holy GW.
That's it! You and me, rapiers at 40 paces. Meet behind the dumpster in Nottingham at high noon on the solstice.
Ah americans and their lack of knowladge of the dueling art. If you are the one who challanges to a duel, it is your opponents right to pick the weapon.
To be fair, historically, Americans just dueled with guns. Heck, some of our greatest politicians in the early days of the country are even known for dueling with pistols. And that's not even getting into duels in the "wild west".
So why choose weapons when we can just bring a gun to your sword fight?
Shoting someone in the back when he is in the out house, or jumping a dude going out of the house with your 10 goons generally does not count as dueling. But yeah I understand the cultural difference.
By the way durning duels, people could pick guns. Heck there were mad man who when challanged were picking some very ungentelmanly weapons. It wasn't very honorable, but they did have the option. Also seeing the face of a british lad, being informed that the weapons of duel are going to be claymores, which struggle to lift.
Karol wrote: Shoting someone in the back when he is in the out house, or jumping a dude going out of the house with your 10 goons generally does not count as dueling. But yeah I understand the cultural difference.
No, we actually had one-on-one, choose your pistol duels.
Andrew Jackson challenged a guy, and then told him he could even shoot first. The guy shot Jackson, which was all good and settled. They became friends and Andrew Jackson gave him the bullet as a gift and a bit of a joke.
Yes, insane does describe XIX century america well. Most newspapers I read that described american "duels" are of the "he was going out of the house of ill repute totally drunk, so my friend hit him with a wooden horse coller, and then the four of us opened fire at him with shotguns" kind.
Not saying it isn't effective at killing the person. Death per capita it is probablly more deadly then the normal duel.
Karol wrote: Yes, insane does describe XIX century america well. Most newspapers I read that described american "duels" are of the "he was going out of the house of ill repute totally drunk, so my friend hit him with a wooden horse coller, and then the four of us opened fire at him with shotguns" kind.
Not saying it isn't effective at killing the person. Death per capita it is probablly more deadly then the normal duel.
You forgot the whole showdown at high noon thing we've turned into a trope. I'm not saying it's common, but two guys squaring off to throw lead at each other to prove who was the better man (or at least the faster draw) was a thing we had.
It might not be as cultured as muzzleloading pistols at dawn but it's definitely American.
And thinking of cowboys....why don't we have an official cowboy themed chapter? I mean dual pistol characters/sergeants, a Land Raider called the Iron Horse, a fondness of shotguns for those who don't use pistols....
Come on GW, there is an untapped gold mine here! Just make them really loud, friendly and bombastic and we can call them Space Texans.
Karol wrote: Yes, insane does describe XIX century america well. Most newspapers I read that described american "duels" are of the "he was going out of the house of ill repute totally drunk, so my friend hit him with a wooden horse coller, and then the four of us opened fire at him with shotguns" kind.
Not saying it isn't effective at killing the person. Death per capita it is probablly more deadly then the normal duel.
You forgot the whole showdown at high noon thing we've turned into a trope. I'm not saying it's common, but two guys squaring off to throw lead at each other to prove who was the better man (or at least the faster draw) was a thing we had.
It might not be as cultured as muzzleloading pistols at dawn but it's definitely American.
And thinking of cowboys....why don't we have an official cowboy themed chapter? I mean dual pistol characters/sergeants, a Land Raider called the Iron Horse, a fondness of shotguns for those who don't use pistols....
Come on GW, there is an untapped gold mine here! Just make them really loud, friendly and bombastic and we can call them Space Texans.
I know you're joking, but.......this sounds badass.
Karol wrote: Yes, insane does describe XIX century america well. Most newspapers I read that described american "duels" are of the "he was going out of the house of ill repute totally drunk, so my friend hit him with a wooden horse coller, and then the four of us opened fire at him with shotguns" kind.
Not saying it isn't effective at killing the person. Death per capita it is probablly more deadly then the normal duel.
You forgot the whole showdown at high noon thing we've turned into a trope. I'm not saying it's common, but two guys squaring off to throw lead at each other to prove who was the better man (or at least the faster draw) was a thing we had.
It might not be as cultured as muzzleloading pistols at dawn but it's definitely American.
And thinking of cowboys....why don't we have an official cowboy themed chapter? I mean dual pistol characters/sergeants, a Land Raider called the Iron Horse, a fondness of shotguns for those who don't use pistols....
Come on GW, there is an untapped gold mine here! Just make them really loud, friendly and bombastic and we can call them Space Texans.
I know you're joking, but.......this sounds badass.
I'm only half joking. I mean I want to see it and it to be a thing (maybe they all wear rebreathers to mimic the use of a bandana?), but at the same time I'm too lazy to do this when I've already got two projects I'm working on already (Thousand Sons and now Primaris Imperial Fists).
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Yet, for some reason, in every single gaming establishment I've frequented more than a handful of times for any significant period of time- someone smells like they've not washed in days. Not someone who's been sweating or forgot deodorant, or just forgot to brush their teeth, or maybe wore yesterday's socks... but a person who actually smells worse than some of the homeless people who spend days sleeping in the streets.
I suspect, like many of your posts, this is hyperbolic nonsense. I've played a lot of games in a lot of different stores and I can't remember anyone who smelled worse than homeless people, not even close. A bit sweaty, especially on hot day with a large crowd? Yep. Smelling like oil/chemicals/etc because they came directly from work? Yep. But nothing like you're describing. If it has ever happened in my presence it's been so rare that I can't remember any incidents. TBH the worst I've smelled is the people who smoke outside and then insist on coming back in the store, and for some reason that's considered a socially acceptable activity even outside of gaming.
Oh sweet summer child...
I'm sorry little Perri, but you're so wrong that we know exactly how you'll pontificate to this reply, but whatever.... Until you've encountered a person like the infamous Dog gak Dave from round these parts then you have no place in saying it is hyperbole. It is fething real. I've seen (and had the displeasure of smelling too) a person who the GW staff straight up asked if he'd been bathing in sewage. I've encountered people who are so stinky it is unreal. The triangular snack food man is right. I honestly do not know how you can have gone this long and not come across one of Nurgle's chosen IRL. They exist and have existed in every store I've been in for an extended period of time. Only one store has kicked one of the smelly people out, and even then that wasn't for smelling like roses that had been dipped in gak, it was cheating at MTG.
Grimtuff wrote: The triangular snack food man is right. I honestly do not know how you can have gone this long and not come across one of Nurgle's chosen IRL.
Go figure.
I must be genuinely honest with you, I don't think he is arguing from a place of sincerity. For some reason he prefers to initiate conflict with me, so I'm fairly certain that if I claimed fire was hot there would be some comment from him (hidden from my view thanks to the 'Ignore User' feature) stating that in fact, I was some sort of liar and stupid person because it was actually cold. It's a consistent event, one that borderlines on harassment. It's best not to rise to the bait and let the moderators do their thing as they see fit.
It is a fairly consistent problem within the gaming world to encounter the smelly ones. My only theory is that they never really go away because someone at the shop is fully aware that every buck that person isn't spending on soap, deodorant, laundry detergent, toothpaste, etc... is money that they're hurling at cards, models, and other gaming stuff. What makes this awful isn't that the shop owner is willing to tolerate it as long as the guy's spending money, but because of the fact that this person may have a genuine addiction and neglect of personal care is a sign of multiple addictions- substance and otherwise. It's not doing that player any good at all. The best possible answer is to ask them to leave and deal with it, and repeat this until they learn they have to take care of themselves if they want to be able to buy their toys and play with them at the FLGS.
I believe a lot of these places need to come to an understanding about how much of a problem this is. I could handle someone who is just coming in to shop around and be on their way, but these people spend hours on end in the shop- which means that if they are indeed as unhygienic as they smell (and if you smell that way, you're filthy)- then It's not a good idea to have them in a room full of people for most of the day, handling things and coming into contact with stuff that others will be touching. Things like this go beyond just 'gross and annoying' to me, it crosses the line into what I consider a health risk to multiple people.
I rant on it because, I will admit it is a pet peeve. Because I know I've done things to make myself smell that awful before, but the only reason why is because I was outdoors for days without running water or a means to clean myself. There's no reason an adult in the modern world with access to running water should smell that way. Either they need to grow the hell up and be responsible like an adult, or the issue needs to be taken to some kind of health care professional.
I'm sorry little Perri, but you're so wrong that we know exactly how you'll pontificate to this reply, but whatever.... Until you've encountered a person like the infamous Dog gak Dave from round these parts then you have no place in saying it is hyperbole. It is fething real. I've seen (and had the displeasure of smelling too) a person who the GW staff straight up asked if he'd been bathing in sewage. I've encountered people who are so stinky it is unreal. The triangular snack food man is right. I honestly do not know how you can have gone this long and not come across one of Nurgle's chosen IRL. They exist and have existed in every store I've been in for an extended period of time. Only one store has kicked one of the smelly people out, and even then that wasn't for smelling like roses that had been dipped in gak, it was cheating at MTG.
Go figure.
I'm not disputing that these people exist, obviously people with major issues exist and some of them probably find their way into game stores. But it's a tiny minority blown way out of proportion as a weird form of virtue signalling by a bunch of people yelling I KNOW HOW TO USE SOAP GUYS. And I'm not sure how you can say that I'm wrong about something that is my own experience. I have never, AFAIK, encountered a person that bad, not in any of the stores I have ever been in. Are you trying to claim that I'm lying about this?
You know, I too have not encountered someone who's, to put it bluntly with a bit of hyperbole, a walking bio hazard. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones, heh.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: I must be genuinely honest with you, I don't think he is arguing from a place of sincerity. For some reason he prefers to initiate conflict with me, so I'm fairly certain that if I claimed fire was hot there would be some comment from him (hidden from my view thanks to the 'Ignore User' feature) stating that in fact, I was some sort of liar and stupid person because it was actually cold. It's a consistent event, one that borderlines on harassment. It's best not to rise to the bait and let the moderators do their thing as they see fit.
This is absurd paranoia. I don't pay attention to you at all, you posted in a thread I looked at and you got a reply. You are not that important.
(Though I note that, once again, you post to tell everyone how much you care about me while simultaneously boasting about how you ignore me. If only we had a word for behavior like that...)
My only theory is that they never really go away because someone at the shop is fully aware that every buck that person isn't spending on soap, deodorant, laundry detergent, toothpaste, etc... is money that they're hurling at cards, models, and other gaming stuff.
And now, having done the paranoia, we descend into utter lunacy. No, stores are not accepting disgusting customers because spending a few dollars on soap might mean buying fewer MTG packs. Aside from the employees not wanting to deal with disgusting people the other customers don't want to deal with them either. No sane store owner is going to allow people like that to drive away a much greater value in sales to people who don't tolerate the Nurgle cultists. If such behavior is tolerated it's because of socially awkward employees who don't know how to handle the situation and/or fear of legal trouble, not a calculated decision that getting the soap money is a profitable business strategy.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: You know, I too have not encountered someone who's, to put it bluntly with a bit of hyperbole, a walking bio hazard. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones, heh.
I would say you are. Or, you've got people running the place that actually dealt with the problem. That's always a plus, in my book. It is something that requires regular maintenance, but it's very possible.
And I've also noticed it usually depends- a lot of time during the weekdays you're less likely to encounter this, if that's your gaming routine. Just a bit of a trend I've noticed. Your mileage may vary.
EDIT: I have noticed that it is often a trend with the US stores. I've a theory about this, but I need to do a little more digging before I leap to a conclusion. But it may have a lot to do with specifically where these places are located, or even that our own gaming stores that featured 40k and similar games were far less common- something about the willingness to be open and create bigger communities and being a bit less discriminatory about things, for the sake of having 'more players'. Half-cooked theory in my head at best, I may engage it later or simply forget about it.
I'm not disputing that these people exist, obviously people with major issues exist and some of them probably find their way into game stores. But it's a tiny minority blown way out of proportion as a weird form of virtue signalling by a bunch of people yelling I KNOW HOW TO USE SOAP GUYS. And I'm not sure how you can say that I'm wrong about something that is my own experience. I have never, AFAIK, encountered a person that bad, not in any of the stores I have ever been in.
Yeah, same. I can't remember ever encountering this issue.
Karol wrote: Yes, insane does describe XIX century america well. Most newspapers I read that described american "duels" are of the "he was going out of the house of ill repute totally drunk, so my friend hit him with a wooden horse coller, and then the four of us opened fire at him with shotguns" kind.
Not saying it isn't effective at killing the person. Death per capita it is probablly more deadly then the normal duel.
You forgot the whole showdown at high noon thing we've turned into a trope. I'm not saying it's common, but two guys squaring off to throw lead at each other to prove who was the better man (or at least the faster draw) was a thing we had.
It might not be as cultured as muzzleloading pistols at dawn but it's definitely American.
And thinking of cowboys....why don't we have an official cowboy themed chapter? I mean dual pistol characters/sergeants, a Land Raider called the Iron Horse, a fondness of shotguns for those who don't use pistols....
Come on GW, there is an untapped gold mine here! Just make them really loud, friendly and bombastic and we can call them Space Texans.
I know you're joking, but.......this sounds badass.
It is also a hollywood thrope. Most shoting were either done durning brawls or done with stuff like shotguns. The high noon stuff never really happened, unless it was something like an ambush. What is less mentioned though is how stabbings were popular back then. Almost never see someone stab someone in western movies, unless it is a movie about Alamo. Bullets cost money, weapons, specially the old black powder revolvers had missifres and jams. The stabbidy stab on the other hand was free. Plus it was a link to ancient times of JC getting brutsed.
And now, having done the paranoia, we descend into utter lunacy. No, stores are not accepting disgusting customers because spending a few dollars on soap might mean buying fewer MTG packs. Aside from the employees not wanting to deal with disgusting people the other customers don't want to deal with them either. No sane store owner is going to allow people like that to drive away a much greater value in sales to people who don't tolerate the Nurgle cultists. If such behavior is tolerated it's because of socially awkward employees who don't know how to handle the situation and/or fear of legal trouble, not a calculated decision that getting the soap money is a profitable business strategy.
Well a few $ probablly not. But what if the guy comes in and buys 3 boxs of every MtG set, orgenises the local MtG events aka brings more people to buy stuff at the store. Then he can get away with anything that doesn't close the store or drops the sales.
I have seen guys who everyone knows they are prime a holes, being accepted at stores, just because they slap around 300$, aka a lot in Poland, every month on different stuff.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: You know, I too have not encountered someone who's, to put it bluntly with a bit of hyperbole, a walking bio hazard. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones, heh.
I would say you are. Or, you've got people running the place that actually dealt with the problem. That's always a plus, in my book. It is something that requires regular maintenance, but it's very possible.
And I've also noticed it usually depends- a lot of time during the weekdays you're less likely to encounter this, if that's your gaming routine. Just a bit of a trend I've noticed. Your mileage may vary.
EDIT: I have noticed that it is often a trend with the US stores. I've a theory about this, but I need to do a little more digging before I leap to a conclusion. But it may have a lot to do with specifically where these places are located, or even that our own gaming stores that featured 40k and similar games were far less common- something about the willingness to be open and create bigger communities and being a bit less discriminatory about things, for the sake of having 'more players'. Half-cooked theory in my head at best, I may engage it later or simply forget about it.
Dude, makes sense to me, you want to cast a wide net to get as many people in as possible and over here we tend to be too polite to inform others that they are honking, but sometimes it must be done and sadly there is almost no polite way to tell someone they have body odour issues, one offs we can all dismiss, it’s the serial odour offenders that it’s awkward to tell.
I ask people if I smell as I’m very self concious about it, if i feel stinky I do something about it, some people just don’t have that level of self awareness.
Karol wrote: I have seen guys who everyone knows they are prime a holes, being accepted at stores, just because they slap around 300$, aka a lot in Poland, every month on different stuff.
The jerks, the bigots, the bullies and otherwise obnoxious elements are usually able to get away with it if they swipe the card at the FLGS enough times.
I get that it's a business, and it's going to protect a source of revenue- especially a reliable one, but at some point it's got to impact the bottom line.
My INT stat is too low to imagine how one could act out bigotry while playing w40k 0_o
On the other hand thanks to an accident as a kid, I do not have to worry about the whole smell thing, unless I start feeling the smell on my tongue. And to this day, this feat has only been achived by homeless people, and no w40k player.
Karol wrote: My INT stat is too low to imagine how one could act out bigotry while playing w40k 0_o
You get some variation of jerk in every single hobby out there. I'm shocked at absolutely none of them, because that's just reality. The only thing that ever shocks me is when any sort of scummy person is allowed to go on doing awful stuff for a long time. And it's that point I hold the store itself accountable.
I'm not disputing that these people exist, obviously people with major issues exist and some of them probably find their way into game stores. But it's a tiny minority blown way out of proportion as a weird form of virtue signalling by a bunch of people yelling I KNOW HOW TO USE SOAP GUYS. And I'm not sure how you can say that I'm wrong about something that is my own experience. I have never, AFAIK, encountered a person that bad, not in any of the stores I have ever been in.
Yeah, same. I can't remember ever encountering this issue.
I have, but not due to a single individual... A store I worked at for a while was located in a windowless basement underneath a bank. They would cram 40 or 50 people in there for MtG tournies, the air conditioner would crap itself within half an hour, and the combined aroma of so many people packed into such a tiny space very quickly became something to behold.
Having said that, I encountered far worse on an individual level working other retail jobs. Poor hygiene is most certainly not some gamer-specific attribute.
Karol wrote: My INT stat is too low to imagine how one could act out bigotry while playing w40k 0_o
On the other hand thanks to an accident as a kid, I do not have to worry about the whole smell thing, unless I start feeling the smell on my tongue. And to this day, this feat has only been achived by homeless people, and no w40k player.
insaniak wrote: Having said that, I encountered far worse on an individual level working other retail jobs. Poor hygiene is most certainly not some gamer-specific attribute.
I think the key difference a lot of people overlook, though- in most retail stores, you will certainly encounter this. Sometimes a LOT worse, too. But the difference is, Stinkbutt McMildewsweats is going to the retail store to walk around and look at things, make his purchase, and depart. In the FLGS, he's going to do that, but he's also going to be in a room full of other people for a significant amount of time.
So it's kind of like the difference between someone going to McDonald's to grab a combo meal and leave, vs. someone going into a bar and sitting there for hours. One of them's fairly a temporary inconvenience, and one of them is using the social area and interfering with what the customers are there to enjoy.
If you guys think real life 40k jerks are bad you definitely need to dip your toes into online gaming. Take real life jerks and ramp it up 100 times due to the wonderful anonymity the net provides. et voila.....
at least in real life you can punch the guy in the face *does not advocate violence as a means of conflict resolution*
Karol wrote: Yes, insane does describe XIX century america well. Most newspapers I read that described american "duels" are of the "he was going out of the house of ill repute totally drunk, so my friend hit him with a wooden horse coller, and then the four of us opened fire at him with shotguns" kind.
Not saying it isn't effective at killing the person. Death per capita it is probablly more deadly then the normal duel.
You forgot the whole showdown at high noon thing we've turned into a trope. I'm not saying it's common, but two guys squaring off to throw lead at each other to prove who was the better man (or at least the faster draw) was a thing we had.
It might not be as cultured as muzzleloading pistols at dawn but it's definitely American.
And thinking of cowboys....why don't we have an official cowboy themed chapter? I mean dual pistol characters/sergeants, a Land Raider called the Iron Horse, a fondness of shotguns for those who don't use pistols....
Come on GW, there is an untapped gold mine here! Just make them really loud, friendly and bombastic and we can call them Space Texans.
I don't know about space cowboys, but I learned that the Minotaurs chapter shoulderpad that comes with the Deathwatch kit is functionally identical to the chicago bulls logo.
...which is why my heavy thunder hammer guy is Dunkmaster Sergeant Jordan of the Chicago Bulls space marine chapter.
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Karol wrote: My INT stat is too low to imagine how one could act out bigotry while playing w40k 0_o
On the other hand thanks to an accident as a kid, I do not have to worry about the whole smell thing, unless I start feeling the smell on my tongue. And to this day, this feat has only been achived by homeless people, and no w40k player.
We at one point had a pimply dude in a trenchcoat playing with a steel legion guard army whose army had swastikas on the side of the tanks and on a couple banners, and his opponent abruptly ended the game turn one when he shot with his bane wolf and yelled "gas the jews!"
Everything is possible through the magic of people who get very, very little social interaction.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Wait seriously? That actually happened? That's like a bad internet joke straight out of /pol/
Usually it is. A lot of those guys are a far cry from being what they say, and it's all about that 'shock humor' in a weird way. Don't get me wrong, I don't find it funny (none of it really is original any more). But, believe it or not there are certain people that don't understand the most basic rule of jokes: One must know the audience, and tailor their humor and gags accordingly.
There are certainly jokes and such I would make privately with friends, some are quite vile- but it's an audience of friends and we all know how one another are and what our boundaries are. We all also know, that no matter how wretched and disgusting the jokes may be... that we're all actually good human beings and we don't actually do evil and vile things or hold any sort of twisted belief system that advocates some behavior. Like Lewis C.K. said, "Some things are just funny to say", and that must be measured against what you know of your audience.
Then there's a completely different attitude I have in other places. I don't even swear in the FLGS. I take the attitude that at any moment, my grandmother could walk through the door and hear what I'm saying when my back is turned. That's how I wish to present myself, that's the sort of environment the store needs, and that's a very basic moral principle that serves me well. I joke around about things- but nothing disgusting or vile. Because also, I know that even if most of the people hearing my joke were to take it as a joke and nothing more, there could always be that one idiot within earshot that might take it to heart and either raise hell about it, or maybe even take it as a precedent for him to start spewing his own vile thoughts. Either way, it's a hassle I would rather not bother with.
As far as Swastikas go on stuff, that'd be an easy no-go at any place I play unless it was something specifically for historical accuracy. And even then, the guideline is to use those models with the utmost discretion and understand that you could be asked to put them away. We fortunately only have a couple of people who play the historical games, and they make it a point to ensure that they avoid the deliberate symbols and stick instead to crosses or something less overt.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Wait seriously? That actually happened? That's like a bad internet joke straight out of /pol/
Yeah. Given a social read on the situation, it was an obvious joke, but it was also obvious that in the normal company that the guy kept, that was normal humor. he was also wearing one of those hammer pendants that in the local area have been heavily picked up as an "acceptable for public" alternative to other more recognizable white-power imagery.
I've seen crude, inappropriate humor that resutled in an ejection from the club/store before - your usual repeated rape jokes about female models or towards female opponents, once a slaanesh marine army with lots of greenstuff genitalia crudely modeled on then spraypainted pink, but if you're going to have something like that that you write off as "well, that was a poorly thought out joke" then it's usually that level of effort. Something someone slapped together in an afternoon and thought was REALLY funny before they took it out into public.
But this was a VERY intricately painted steel legion army with LOTS of swastikas on vehicles, flags, etc, all painted to a good standard and weathered in, etc. If it was just the joke, that would have earned the dude a pulling aside and an ejection after the second offense. But you don't put hundreds of hours into an off-color joke.
the_scotsman wrote: But this was a VERY intricately painted steel legion army with LOTS of swastikas on vehicles, flags, etc, all painted to a good standard and weathered in, etc. If it was just the joke, that would have earned the dude a pulling aside and an ejection after the second offense. But you don't put hundreds of hours into an off-color joke.
Well, I'd have thought after screaming something about executing an ethnic group via airborne poisoning wouldn't get much in the way of a 'first warning', that kind of stuff warrants an immediate boot in most places (often the sort that isn't done privately or discretely, and results in the entire room watching awkwardly and quietly as one guy packs his stuff and leaves). If this were a few models in his army with a Swastika scrawled crudely onto them somewhere, I could see it not being such a big deal- 'a dumb joke that isn't funny, go fix that'. But if this guy sat and spent hours and hours on end making them look as good as possible, I'm thinking that he's either 'kinda joking but not really'... or has some serious mental issues and is somewhere on that spectrum I keep hearing about.
We at one point had a pimply dude in a trenchcoat playing with a steel legion guard army whose army had swastikas on the side of the tanks and on a couple banners, and his opponent abruptly ended the game turn one when he shot with his bane wolf and yelled "gas the jews!"
Everything is possible through the magic of people who get very, very little social interaction.
Ah that kind of a dude, I have heard stories about one of the vets "germanorks" army. Doesn't sound very bigoted though, unless the definition changed since last time I was at school.
As far as Swastikas go on stuff, that'd be an easy no-go at any place I play unless it was something specifically for historical accuracy. And even then, the guideline is to use those models with the utmost discretion and understand that you could be asked to put them away. We fortunately only have a couple of people who play the historical games, and they make it a point to ensure that they avoid the deliberate symbols and stick instead to crosses or something less overt.
I think it is a cultur perception thing. In europe and probably the US, the swastika is a vile symbol and using it as a joke is done at ones own peril. On the other hand in Asia the perception of the same symbol is different. And I don't mean the solar happines symbol, I mean the actual nazi thing. Running around with it in Vietnam or Japan.
On the other hand if someone would plop an IG army in full regalia of the 16th Infantry Division from 1937, most westerners wouldn't even understand why it can be problematic.
the_scotsman wrote: But this was a VERY intricately painted steel legion army with LOTS of swastikas on vehicles, flags, etc, all painted to a good standard and weathered in, etc. If it was just the joke, that would have earned the dude a pulling aside and an ejection after the second offense. But you don't put hundreds of hours into an off-color joke.
Well, I'd have thought after screaming something about executing an ethnic group via airborne poisoning wouldn't get much in the way of a 'first warning', that kind of stuff warrants an immediate boot in most places (often the sort that isn't done privately or discretely, and results in the entire room watching awkwardly and quietly as one guy packs his stuff and leaves). If this were a few models in his army with a Swastika scrawled crudely onto them somewhere, I could see it not being such a big deal- 'a dumb joke that isn't funny, go fix that'. But if this guy sat and spent hours and hours on end making them look as good as possible, I'm thinking that he's either 'kinda joking but not really'... or has some serious mental issues and is somewhere on that spectrum I keep hearing about.
Yeah, it didn't. And I guess that's kind of the point I was trying to make - I've seen the "person who interacts so much on the internet that he doesn't understand Internet Humor /= Real World Humor" that you were talking about. This wasn't it.
But sometimes you do deal with people making jokes maybe not quite that bad, but in the neighborhood, and they are obviously on the spectrum and do warrant a second chance, depending on the circumstance.
We at one point had a pimply dude in a trenchcoat playing with a steel legion guard army whose army had swastikas on the side of the tanks and on a couple banners, and his opponent abruptly ended the game turn one when he shot with his bane wolf and yelled "gas the jews!"
Everything is possible through the magic of people who get very, very little social interaction.
Ah that kind of a dude, I have heard stories about one of the vets "germanorks" army. Doesn't sound very bigoted though, unless the definition changed since last time I was at school.
Bigoted, noun. having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one's own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others.
I'm not sure how much one can reveal an obstinate belief in the superiority of one's own opinion and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others than by revealing that one is a member of a hate group. That's like going out and joining a club just for that.
I thought always that it was a false belief in ones superiority. When one is superior holding such ideas is not bigoted it is just the truth.
Otherwise stating something like asian make the best engineers could be considered bigoted. Same with Jews holding the highest number of noble prizes. Or Norwegians dominating cross-country skiing.
To a degree if someone was aiming to make his army as brutal as possible then trying to turn them in to nazis in space could be a way to do it. Now this of course does not mean it ain't a very stupid idea to begin with.
To toss my hat in on the Plaguebearers in real life:
I've met a couple over the course of over a decade now and usually it wasn't a common thing. The Magic players at my current FLGS tend to be the worst of the smelly crowd (maybe they all play black decks too?) to the point that my mostly dead sense of smell still feels like I got bricked in the face with the smell.
Pretty much if you stink so bad I can smell you, we've moved beyond soap, and even beyond bleach. Only a bath of holy promethium can save us from your stench.
Karol wrote: I thought always that it was a false belief in ones superiority. When one is superior holding such ideas is not bigoted it is just the truth.
Otherwise stating something like asian make the best engineers could be considered bigoted. Same with Jews holding the highest number of noble prizes. Or Norwegians dominating cross-country skiing.
To a degree if someone was aiming to make his army as brutal as possible then trying to turn them in to nazis in space could be a way to do it. Now this of course does not mean it ain't a very stupid idea to begin with.
The first is bigoted (if we're speaking technically) depending on how you apply it, the second is not - you've chosen a sorting criteria (religious belief/cultural affiliation?) and applied a comparison.
You can take the first and reword it - say, "asians make up the largest fraction of engineers in the world" and that's just a fact. But if you then take an individual asian baby, and just based on the fact that they are ethnically asian, say "you are more probable to become an engineer" then that is prejudice.
You don't know if, in the simplest sense, asians make up the largest fraction of engineers in the world because asians make up the largest fraction of PEOPLE in the world.
Obviously, nobody's going to get too mad if you apply a positive attribute to someone prejudicially. But at the end of the day you are applying a handful of small physical variations in skin tone and facial structure as a causative factor towards something that has almost always been shown to be entirely unrelated.
If you don't see how "asian make the best engineers" is a bigoted statement you have a lot of learning to do...I work with a ton of Asian engineers, some are really good and others are terrible.
Then you run into the problem with just because some Norwegians dominate cross-country doesn't mean all of them do.
Drawing conclusions based off of a trait as dubious as race/religion or even sex is problematic. Just because someone is Norwegian doesn't mean they can ski and assuming so does them a disservice. Using someones race/religion/gender to assume facts about them is pretty much the definition of prejudice.
It's a slippery slope because those factors are not irrelevant but at the same time are not determinative (more likely a Norwegian can ski than a Nigerian but not all Norwegians can and not all Nigerians can't).
It's usually best to try to base your judgments around other factors (which is hard because humans are cognitively lazy and our brains basically work by classifying things on as little stimuli as possible.)
I could give you a lot of examples from my personal life as examples but its just best to not pre-judge someone on traits as superficial as race/gender.
You've misunderstood his point, I fear - he was agreeing that "Asians make the nest engineers" is a prejudicial statement.
As for "German Orks", well, a lot of the early 40k Orks did look like they're raided the Wehrmacht section of the army surplus shop - stahlhelms, greatcoats and jackboots, "potato-masher" stick grenades, riding Kettenrads. Look at the early Stormboyz models - and their unit logo - for a particularly tasteless example. Then there's the people who painted their Necromunda Redemptionist models in white robes. And yes, that particular form of clothing is originally based on Spanish penitents in capirote hoods, but I don't think that was what was being referenced there …
My observation is that a lot of gaming in the US - at least, that undertaken by the sort of people who post on internet fora - is against strangers, or at least, whoever shows up first, in a games shop? That might explain the preponderance of "weirdos", if you're playing games against people you wouldn't otherwise have anything to do with. All my gaming is against friends, or at least people I've talked to a couple of times first, so I weed out the ones who I'm not going to get on with. I don't think there's anything special about "40k gamers" compared to other communities, because I don't know any "40k gamers" - they all play 40k and X-Wing, Warmachine, infinity or whatnot.
AndrewGPaul wrote: You've misunderstood his point, I fear - he was agreeing that "Asians make the nest engineers" is a prejudicial statement.
As for "German Orks", well, a lot of the early 40k Orks did look like they're raided the Wehrmacht section of the army surplus shop - stahlhelms, greatcoats and jackboots, "potato-masher" stick grenades, riding Kettenrads. Look at the early Stormboyz models - and their unit logo - for a particularly tasteless example. Then there's the people who painted their Necromunda Redemptionist models in white robes. And yes, that particular form of clothing is originally based on Spanish penitents in capirote hoods, but I don't think that was what was being referenced there …
My observation is that a lot of gaming in the US - at least, that undertaken by the sort of people who post on internet fora - is against strangers, or at least, whoever shows up first, in a games shop? That might explain the preponderance of "weirdos", if you're playing games against people you wouldn't otherwise have anything to do with. All my gaming is against friends, or at least people I've talked to a couple of times first, so I weed out the ones who I'm not going to get on with. I don't think there's anything special about "40k gamers" compared to other communities, because I don't know any "40k gamers" - they all play 40k and X-Wing, Warmachine, infinity or whatnot.
I think he was making the (common, for obvious reasons) assumption that for something to be "bigoted" you had to be making negative prejudices. You don't, by the technical definition of bigotry. And you also don't have to be making statements that are necessarily based on incorrect data - you just have to be applying as an absolute certainty to an individual something that might be a stereotype. The term has definitely been somewhat weaponized, to the hilarious point where you have people making bigoted statements about how if someone is a particular ethnic group then they MUST be bigoted...but it does have a dictionary definition.
"Otherwise stating something like asian make the best engineers could be considered bigoted. Same with Jews holding the highest number of noble prizes. Or Norwegians dominating cross-country skiing. "
And you're definitely right about meeting a greater preponderance of weirdos when you're meeting up at a group location to play or participate in a hobby that's somewhat out of a social norm. Because you're not likely to get the people who already have established friend groups, and you're then likely to meet people who don't have established friend groups...because they are a bit weird.
But I'd argue that the nature and imagery of the imperium combined with the high focus on purity and breeding of space marines does lend 40k a greater appeal than other common nerd-settings to one particular type of less than fun to interact with subset of the greater weirdo/douchebag community.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, it didn't. And I guess that's kind of the point I was trying to make - I've seen the "person who interacts so much on the internet that he doesn't understand Internet Humor /= Real World Humor" that you were talking about. This wasn't it.
Yeah, I know that sort and it doesn't sound like the type you had to deal with. It sounds like he was just quite obviously a scumbag, and somehow deluded himself into believing this sort of behavior would be acceptable because you guys would be 'cool with it'. I can take a shock-joke as much as the next guy, I might even find it humorous if it's creative, but there's a time and a place- and there's a degree to which a person can only make so many jokes before I start actually questioning their thought process to collect so many of them and wondering why they find it so much funnier than any other adult with a twisted sense of humor would.
I made a statement elsewhere about those people who bubble themselves in online and then seem to be confused and shocked when they realize that people out in the real world aren't all like the people in their little bubble. Maybe I referenced it earlier here, or elsewhere, I forget. I'm pretty sure you can find it if you look through my posts- it's been quite a day and I've knocked out a lot of extensive emails and such, so I do apologize for not being able to produce it.
the_scotsman wrote: But sometimes you do deal with people making jokes maybe not quite that bad, but in the neighborhood, and they are obviously on the spectrum and do warrant a second chance, depending on the circumstance.
At the core of most all of my horror stories about "That Guy", the worst offenders in my memory tend to be a bit off or at least they're on the spectrum somewhere. It is sad that whatever conditions brought them up, apparently no adult or older sibling explained to them- in whatever means were effective- that this sort of thing was not okay. Many times I will find them blissfully unaware of the level of offensiveness of what they've said, or sometimes they even struggle to find the issue with someone else being upset. But, usually explaining to them in basic terms: "People don't like hearing stuff like that, and if they complain about it you're gonna get told to leave and you can't come back any more" tends to resolve it.
And if we're talking in terms of 'making our gaming communities better', then it does take some effort to coach the less socially savvy into being more discrete in their language. It's not easy, but I have found that even the mentally ill ones are more responsive to that than they are a harsh lashing out from someone else.
And if they blow it off and keep doing it, you just tell them to hit the door and don't come back and be done with it.
We at one point had a pimply dude in a trenchcoat playing with a steel legion guard army whose army had swastikas on the side of the tanks and on a couple banners, and his opponent abruptly ended the game turn one when he shot with his bane wolf and yelled "gas the jews!"
Everything is possible through the magic of people who get very, very little social interaction.
Ah that kind of a dude, I have heard stories about one of the vets "germanorks" army. Doesn't sound very bigoted though, unless the definition changed since last time I was at school.
As far as Swastikas go on stuff, that'd be an easy no-go at any place I play unless it was something specifically for historical accuracy. And even then, the guideline is to use those models with the utmost discretion and understand that you could be asked to put them away. We fortunately only have a couple of people who play the historical games, and they make it a point to ensure that they avoid the deliberate symbols and stick instead to crosses or something less overt.
I think it is a cultur perception thing. In europe and probably the US, the swastika is a vile symbol and using it as a joke is done at ones own peril. On the other hand in Asia the perception of the same symbol is different. And I don't mean the solar happines symbol, I mean the actual nazi thing. Running around with it in Vietnam or Japan.
On the other hand if someone would plop an IG army in full regalia of the 16th Infantry Division from 1937, most westerners wouldn't even understand why it can be problematic.
Yea, modern raping and pillaging. zaibatsu at it's best!
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