I just ordered a bunch of DKOK deathriders - luckily before FW changed their prices. Unfortunately it looks like going forward they're going to be hiking their already steep prices by 25% or so for US customers. Also - apparently less availability. Quite a few items available in the UK are not available in the US now.

Does anyone know if there will still be a way to buy from the UK? I really didn't mind saving up and making a large purchase all at once to get free express shipping. This 'convenience' of faster and cheaper shipping really is moot if we have to pay 25% more.

All the people I know on a local basis are boycotting FW for this.

However, I believe they're still in the middle of moving all their product around, so thats why its unavailable. Its not a lack of models, its a logistical issue temporarily.

They also made it so you have to spend more to get free shipping
Before it was £250 to qualify for free shipping which is ~$330
But now you have to pay $400 to get free shipping

It makes me mad because they say this is better because we no longer have to pay the 15% for shipping. Instead they force a 20%-40% price increase on us AND we still have to pay for shipping.

This pretty much sums up the reactions of people at my lgs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M

Count me in on the boycott as well unless there's an option for us to pay the normal price and order from the UK - which i doubt there is.

masterhobo wrote:
They also made it so you have to spend more to get free shipping
Before it was £250 to qualify for free shipping which is ~$330
But now you have to pay $400 to get free shipping

Weird, when I was on the Canadian site, it said I only had to spend 150$ for free shipping

Was there a price spike on the Canadian site as well?

For me, the free shipping is $120 USD.

SirWeeble wrote:
Was there a price spike on the Canadian site as well?

For me, the free shipping is $120 USD.

it's apparently a limited time "sale" on shipping right now.

The free shipping for $150 is only temporary, after the deal ends Canadians will have to spend at least $500 to qualify

I will also assume that we'll be paying sales tax on top of it as well, so for me that's 8% more to the cost. But I guess we were paying 20% VAT for all those years (oh wait, we're still paying for that, plus more).

All complaining aside, I wonder if they'll see a significant drop in purchases, which will cause them to reexamine prices. Its not like moving distribution to the US for FW isn't an incurred cost.

I prefer ordering from the UK, at least that way I could pretend the GBP prices were lower (I know, I know, I still paid for expensive models). Looking at the "conversion rate" and prices in USD on the FW site is eyewatering.

The only country FW are making happy with this move is China. Even UK customers are getting shafted. The sad thing is, this is what happens when you have a monopoly over an IP. Hopefully people vote with their wallets, refusing to spend £100 on £1 of resin and either they lower their prices or go out of business.

Went to go look up the increase, and forge world currently thinks i'm in Japan for some reason. I'm in the US btw. Kinda made me laugh to see models that cost 22,000 of any currency. Not exactly what I carry around in my wallet.

I admit my first thought was "Damn, glad I don't play Horus Heresy".

PS: Australia also had that global 10% on imported good things which went to all items, not just ones over $1,000 a month or two ago...the prices were already bad before that. Now they must be eye-watering.

They are :(
Example:
Manta: 1050 pounds, Excahnge rate has that $1843.94 AUD
Forgeworld has it as $2420....... a $576.06 price hike.

All the prices I'm seeing line up with show prices. Nothing new to me.

Given Forge Worlds general purge of a lot of options lately, this has me wondering if they are trying to milk limited stock with out actually calling it that.

 Klayhero wrote:
They are :(
Example:
Manta: 1050 pounds, Excahnge rate has that $1843.94 AUD
Forgeworld has it as $2420....... a $576.06 price hike.

Hate to break it to you, but adjusting for the tax differential, the Australia Tax is actually $735.63

 chimeara wrote:
All the prices I'm seeing line up with show prices. Nothing new to me.

That's because their show prices were already massively inflated and no sane person ever paid them. Now they're the only choice unless you live in the UK.

Good...lord...

 Peregrine wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
All the prices I'm seeing line up with show prices. Nothing new to me.

That's because their show prices were already massively inflated and no sane person ever paid them. Now they're the only choice unless you live in the UK.

Honestly, I'm fine with it, it's what I'm used to paying. At shows pay a bit extra to get it now and not have to deal with my bank. They don't allow purchases to the UK. Unless I spend a rediculous amount of time talking to several people in their debit card department to allow me to buy anything from UK.

Huge is relative term and shipping can compensate. Buying spartan now would cost me half a beer more. Whopedoo. Boss cost me with his indecision when holidays are held this year more than this costs me at worst(all free shipping) in a decade if not more

I stopped buying FW and knock offs years ago. I'm just done dealing with Resin.

Some interesting conversion rates as far as money goes. More or less everything got 20-25% pricier. I guess recasters from Russia and China are happy right now.

Here is the most recent catalog. US prices are listed. You can see how much prices have gone up. Some pieces went up 40%!

I'll no longer buy FW at these prices. This is absolutely absurd.

Can we use this time to address the fact that forgeworld has always been overrated and that their products melt if it ever gets hotter than 95 degrees despite costing nearly double a comparable, already INSANELY overpriced GW product?

Considering my Krieg army is still not melted despite the many summers we had, I'd say its a bad time, go away.

ERJAK wrote:
Can we use this time to address the fact that forgeworld has always been overrated and that their products melt if it ever gets hotter than 95 degrees despite costing nearly double a comparable, already INSANELY overpriced GW product?

Yes sir, this is a great time to address that fact. Can we also discuss how GW moved from pewter to plastic and not only kept prices the same but increased them?

It's boycott time peoples.





.

ERJAK wrote:
Can we use this time to address the fact that forgeworld has always been overrated and that their products melt if it ever gets hotter than 95 degrees despite costing nearly double a comparable, already INSANELY overpriced GW product?

Ok, let's address it. It's a lie. Addressing is complete.

ERJAK wrote:
Can we use this time to address the fact that forgeworld has always been overrated and that their products melt if it ever gets hotter than 95 degrees despite costing nearly double a comparable, already INSANELY overpriced GW product?

Ah yes let's make false claids ofmelting. That will obviously be good idea

Yeah It sucks I thought about getting a levithan or something for my army. Now there is no incentive for me even to do so. So consider me a part of the boycott.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The only country FW are making happy with this move is China. Even UK customers are getting shafted. The sad thing is, this is what happens when you have a monopoly over an IP. Hopefully people vote with their wallets, refusing to spend £100 on £1 of resin and either they lower their prices or go out of business.

every company has an monopoly over their IPs dude. and frankly 40k likely wouldn't have taken off if anyone could add anything they wanted to 40k when they wanted. it'd make 40k an incoherant mess.

BrianDavion wrote:
...frankly 40k likely wouldn't have taken off if anyone could add anything they wanted to 40k when they wanted. it'd make 40k an incoherant mess.

*cough* star wars lore *cough*

Goodbye FW, Hello China.

Not sure how us in the UK have been screwed over BCB. It's business as usual for us. Man I feel sorry for anyone not in the UK though, FW prices were already eye watering. It will however level itself out if the £ starts strengthening against other currencies. I'm pretty sure the £ is currently near a low not seen since WW 2 vs. the US$.

phillv85 wrote:
Not sure how us in the UK have been screwed over BCB. It's business as usual for us. Man I feel sorry for anyone not in the UK though, FW prices were already eye watering. It will however level itself out if the £ starts strengthening against other currencies. I'm pretty sure the £ is currently near a low not seen since WW 2 vs. the US$.

No need to feel sorry for all outside UK. For me if I were to buy a spartan now cost went up half a beer. Shock horror. I think I can live without half a glass of beer(0.25l) when buying something as expensive as spartan. Even on worst scenario it's not end of the world price hike and main GW has had lot bigger ones in the past yet they keep selling so anybody claiming FW sales are going to 0 are just flat out wrong. Hell this move is just putting FW pricing structure same to GW prime which makes me suspect it could be order from higher up's. FW's aren't in full control of their company as they have higher up's who can order them around.

Lot depend on how you bought FW stuff before but for euro users this varies from about 9% price hike to price drop.

Not to mention this improved their biggest market(UK). Maybe FW figured that boost in UK sales and about similar with maybe drop on EU is still more profitable even with US/australia sales dropping. Assuming FW even had any choise in the matter.

Lot depend on how you bought FW stuff before but for euro users this varies from about 9% price hike to price drop.

It really dosent. Just checked the Hierophant. I bought mine for €270 inc shipping a few years back.
Hes now €330.
Im in Ireland. Hardly the other side of the world from Nottingham.

 Ratius wrote:

Lot depend on how you bought FW stuff before but for euro users this varies from about 9% price hike to price drop.

It really dosent. Just checked the Hierophant. I bought mine for €270 inc shipping a few years back.
Hes now €330.
Im in Ireland. Hardly the other side of the world from Nottingham.

Yes you can pull in examples. You just hit on the worst case. Ie free shipping. Without that we get into "oh bohoo spartan went up by 3€". That's btw fairly accurate difference in price I calculated on yesterday's conversion rates. Didn't go for cents and go for 2.xx€ so just put in 3€ or half the beer.

So yes it does. Did you buy 250£+ at once or not? Depending on that you get price hike, about equal or even price drop. Yes this system can actually result in price DROPS depending on how you bought the models.

And yes this does suck especially for US&Australia but GW has been hell bent on screwing those in prices for years so hardly a big news. But claiming this will kill FW sales are "bit" exaggerated. GW sales in US are doing pretty well despite being screwed by same pricing structure for years.

Ah just let us have an auld moan in peace tyvm!

I don't think anybody is saying this will kill Forgeworld, what they are saying is if enough people are pissed off enough to spend less with them, then this will hit their sales and they may reconsider.
I would however say that I don't think anything from Forgeworld has ever decreased in price (aside perhaps due to currency conversion fluctuations)

Nothing new for me, since Switzerland is outside of their comfort delivery zone we allready payed alot more for shipping.
Bonus points for tripple taxes and tarrifs.
Stuff ended up costing 50% more then the properly converted rate.

Whilst I'm a lover of tin-foil hat* theorys I think "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" covers this latest faux pas from your new consumer friendly Geedubs

But on the upside means folks might being investigating other manufacturers (legit or otherwise

*also never make a tin foil hat it just makes it easier for the mind probes get a decent signal

I just posted this in another thread but they announced on warhammer community site that they are opening a new warehouse / distribution centre in Memphis. Maybe they are clearing stock before this happens.

Call my chinaman! Tell him he's a rich man!

 nurgle86 wrote:
I just posted this in another thread but they announced on warhammer community site that they are opening a new warehouse / distribution centre in Memphis. Maybe they are clearing stock before this happens.

Would make more sense to lower prices then, no?

I've gone through everything I've ordered from them. Everything is the same price I paid.

Example would be my chaos knight, in January I paid $203 shipped. Now it's listed at $210 shipped. The Heresy Marie's and kalibrax autoguns are also the same price I paid months ago. The leviathan was $118 with arms shipped a month ago, now it's $125 shipped. So, I dont think it's boycott worthy but that's just me.

A buddy of mine brought up a good point. He thinks that the stuff that didn't get a price hike is to make up for the cost of spinning ultra popular kits with not as popular kits with them. As it seems that only the really big things and select popular models got anything significant price wise.

Hurt them with your wallet and send POLITE emails saying you won't be purchasing anything from them anymore and move on with your day.

If the community were serious and wanted to react together, they'd actually ban Forgeworld from large events as a protest. This would at least make the powers that be open their eyes and see repurcussions. However, will never happen as the community really doesn't mind getting gouged that much, as long as they can still win.

 bullyboy wrote:
If the community were serious and wanted to react together, they'd actually ban Forgeworld from large events as a protest. This would at least make the powers that be open their eyes and see repurcussions. However, will never happen as the community really doesn't mind getting gouged that much, as long as they can still win.

Given that the core GW lines have had similarly ridiculous price hikes at multiple points in the past decade, moreso even, this would be rather silly.

More to the point, for people who already own FW stuff, theyre not likely to be happy about told they cant use it.

Vote with your wallet, far more effective.

 bullyboy wrote:
If the community were serious and wanted to react together, they'd actually ban Forgeworld from large events as a protest. This would at least make the powers that be open their eyes and see repurcussions. However, will never happen as the community really doesn't mind getting gouged that much, as long as they can still win.

That wouldn't happen in a proper tournament setting as nothing would be banned for monetary reasons. From what I understand very little Forgeworld stuff gets used in large events anyway so it wouldn't really hurt their sales outside of convincing some casual players with plans to break into the tournament scene not to buy. The only way there'll be change is if enough people just don't buy it. Even then it could take years to see any real change. People in Australia have been paying insanely inflated prices on things for years as is though. There'll be outrage at first but then the playerbase in the US will just get used to it eventually and it'll be things as usual. There'll be some people who'll continue to go on about it over time but the majority of people will just get over it and tell everyone complaining to shut up.

It's crummy, but its a kind of crummy that apparently we're only going to care about in regards to Forgeworld? Just pricing a few things out the new US FW prices are about the same hike over the UK FW prices that US GW main line product prices are over UK GW prices.

Don't take this as an endorsement for the change. I'm in no way happy about it. I'm just saying that it's pretty silly to bring out the torch and pitchforks for this egregious price hike and happily pay the other.

This price hike has guaranteed I will not buy anything from FW.

The Peltasts upgrade is £23, converted to 38 Cad, 47 on FW. There's a decent amount of stuff I wanted but now I'll never buy it haha

Boycott! I actually thought GW had gotten so much better. Did Kirby just take over Forgeworld now?

masterhobo wrote:
They also made it so you have to spend more to get free shipping
Before it was £250 to qualify for free shipping which is ~$330
But now you have to pay $400 to get free shipping

It makes me mad because they say this is better because we no longer have to pay the 15% for shipping. Instead they force a 20%-40% price increase on us AND we still have to pay for shipping.

This pretty much sums up the reactions of people at my lgs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M

I sent them an email.

While I applaud the effort to get a warehouse in the US and make things simpler the other changes you have made priced me out of the market. I am sympathetic to the fact that adding a warehouse will add significant cost to your business, however, you have dug too deeply to recover this cost. For example: Then - $60 for a dreadnought body + 15% shipping = $69 Now - $73 for a dreadnought body + $10 shipping = $83 A 20% increase. Then - ~$330 for product to get free shipping Now - $400 for product, which is the old equivalent amount of product when we paid $330. We now pay $70 more for the *same* amount of product. I urge you to reconsider some of your pricing and shipping policies as I fear this will have a large impact on more customers than myself - and I am not low income by any stretch of the imagination. Sincerely, Darren

If there's anything that's just insane about this is the lack of any real savings in shipping.

 IronBrand wrote:
That wouldn't happen in a proper tournament setting as nothing would be banned for monetary reasons.

Don't know how long you've been around, but various tournaments have banned a lot of things for a lot of reasons. The big 'pro' tournaments? Not so much, but the ones most people will attend have banned stuff for far less. It's not like there wasn't practically a 'ban' on Forge World nearly everywhere in the US for a long time- and it's still enforced by some.

 IronBrand wrote:
From what I understand very little Forgeworld stuff gets used in large events anyway so it wouldn't really hurt their sales outside of convincing some casual players with plans to break into the tournament scene not to buy.

Quite a few kits I've seen with Forge World components in tournaments.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:
That wouldn't happen in a proper tournament setting as nothing would be banned for monetary reasons.

Don't know how long you've been around, but various tournaments have banned a lot of things for a lot of reasons. The big 'pro' tournaments? Not so much, but the ones most people will attend have banned stuff for far less. It's not like there wasn't practically a 'ban' on Forge World nearly everywhere in the US for a long time- and it's still enforced by some.

 IronBrand wrote:
From what I understand very little Forgeworld stuff gets used in large events anyway so it wouldn't really hurt their sales outside of convincing some casual players with plans to break into the tournament scene not to buy.

Quite a few kits I've seen with Forge World components in tournaments.

I could've done a better job clarifying what I meant by "proper" tournaments. I meant the larger more organised tournaments. Not ones along the lines of the local level ones that are run by one guy who is also a competitor.

Yeh, this has probably finally pushed me from ever ordering from forgeworld again.

 IronBrand wrote:
I could've done a better job clarifying what I meant by "proper" tournaments. I meant the larger more organised tournaments. Not ones along the lines of the local level ones that are run by one guy who is also a competitor.

You could have said 'Pro Level'.

And I don't mean just tiny podunk ones. I mean larger ones, even- with 40-100+ players.

"Sorry, guy- that Commissar is a third party model with GW Bolt Pistol on it, gonna have to DQ you"

 LunarSol wrote:
It's crummy, but its a kind of crummy that apparently we're only going to care about in regards to Forgeworld? Just pricing a few things out the new US FW prices are about the same hike over the UK FW prices that US GW main line product prices are over UK GW prices.

Don't take this as an endorsement for the change. I'm in no way happy about it. I'm just saying that it's pretty silly to bring out the torch and pitchforks for this egregious price hike and happily pay the other.

People complain about GW's regional pricing all the time. Every few weeks someone posts a thread with "did gw just double the price of all their kits?", only to find out they were accidentally on the Australian site.

One key difference is there are many ways to get core GW items at a discount - retailers will sometimes have sales (I got Silver Tower for 100 bucks after tax at a local shop awhile back), online stores often will be at the full 15% off cap that GW has put in place (and you generally don't need to pay tax if the retailer is in a different state, which for me saves an extra 8-9%), Ebay often has stuff up at a discount and does big coupons every 1-3 months. Forge World, on the other hand, has none of that - you have to buy it straight from their webstore/con table with no discount + tax. Legit FW items occasionally pop up on ebay, but not nearly as often (unless you count recasters).

On a sidenote, here in the US, tax is not automatically included in product prices, and while I can understand why to an extent, it annoys me to no end. When I see a price, I want to go "this is the price", not "ok, this is the price, now I need to add X% to it"


And yeah, I do see that their plan was mostly to just keep the prices consistent with their internal exchange rates, but when the consumer sees that most kits have a drastic price increase, they get a bit disgruntled. If they had used a more modest conversion rate for existing stock - like something close to the current conversions rounded up to the nearest dollar, or even five dollar mark, and then used their standard rates for all new kits, there'd be grumbling sure, but not nearly as much as they are getting right now.

I've never bought anything from FW before and most certainly won't now. They priced themselves out of the market and made a horrible PR move with this.

Goodbye FW, Hello China.

These are the real winners here. There is a significant chunk of folks who used to purchase FW products who will now purchase 3rd party or recasts. The actual good news from this is we may see more Manufacturers of good stand in models. Things like the Dreamforge Knights, or the Alternative Primarchs.


There are FW products I want, but not enough to pay a 30percent FUA (FrakyouAmerica) tax. People can justify this all they want. If they are fine with flushing their money down the toilet it doesn't bother me, its not my money. But I don't need to pay for GW to get extra bonus income from me.

It's almost like FW decided that their business model should be to sell a few high-premium master model for Chinese and Russian recaster...

Will they ever learn the lesson from music streaming and, more recently, Netflix?


And, just to clarify, I love the FW, specifically the variation of classic GW model (Land Raider Proteus, Mortis and Chaplain Dreadnought etc...)

Justyn wrote:

Goodbye FW, Hello China.

These are the real winners here. There is a significant chunk of folks who used to purchase FW products who will now purchase 3rd party or recasts. The actual good news from this is we may see more Manufacturers of good stand in models. Things like the Dreamforge Knights, or the Alternative Primarchs.

May I ask how exactly giving money to parasitic thieves benefits anyone?

Yes, maybe you will see some garbage third party stand-ins in short run. In long run? Enjoy your toxic resin shelf warmers as FW pulls the plug from the armies recasts took over, like they just did with Elysians. No rules equates 100% money spent on them down the drain, it's that simple.

And I am not defending price hike, far from it. I won't buy anything from FW at this rate, but it seems some people are so entitled they prefer to pay criminals in order to have their pay to win toy. Do tell, when you guys see a say Ferrari or Bentley, is your first instinct to smash the window in with a rock too to get in without paying?

And please don't compare that to virtual goods with zero production costs. That's just dumb. The FW minis can't materialize out of thin air on a whim, they are still luxury good that needs to be produced by people paid UK wages, utilizing designs of UK designers and mould makers, paying local taxes too. Mind enlightening us how they are supposed to compete with chinese parasite content with a fraction of the money, paying no taxes, having no safety restrictions in materials used?

Better comparison would be anything made by Apple or Sony, really overpriced stuff that does exact same things that every other laptop or phone costing fraction of the price - but, you know, people tend to not mentally gymnastic themselves into justifying counterfeits, they buy genuine thing instead of stealing it and are proud of it, go figure...

Sadly its ALL of FW that is messed up and ordering their products or NOT ordering wont change anything.

I waited 2 years to order 400$ worth of corsair kits (from 7th till part into 8th), i have emails going back and forth, over and over again asking when i can order the Kits (I wasnt ordering the heavy/bike kit without the troop kit), this was during 7th i remind you, when they had rules and were very popular.

You know what i did? after 1 and half years i told them i will go 3rd party if they dont help me out, just give me a date when to expect them, give me something, the person literally said "we dont have any plans at this time, and we cant help you" i told them i will go 3rd party in 6 months when it hits 2yrs, i gave them 1 more email and went 3rd party.

FW honestly dug a deep hole themselves, i would love to order and help them out, but they literally wouldnt help me out for over 2yrs, why should i care about their crappy resin? The 3rd party ones are just as good, i have some that are about 10-15% worst material, but w/e FW didnt care to even try, why should i?

May I ask how exactly giving money to parasitic thieves benefits anyone?

Calm your panties. I wasn't advocating recasts, simply stating they will get more business. And yes I think 3rd party manufacturers are a good thing. Options are always good. Third party options are not the same as re-casters.

And please don't compare that to virtual goods with zero production costs. That's just dumb. The FW minis can't materialize out of thin air on a whim, they are still luxury good that needs to be produced by people paid UK wages, utilizing designs of UK designers and mould makers, paying local taxes too. Mind enlightening us how they are supposed to compete with chinese parasite content with a fraction of the money, paying no taxes, having no safety restrictions in materials used?

I agree with you. However, once they decide on a price I will continue to object to them charging me 30 percent more because of where I live. Hence why I advocate 3rd party stand ins. Many of which are starting to be better than the originals they imitate. Note I didn't (again) say re-casts.

Better comparison would be anything made by Apple or Sony, really overpriced stuff that does exact same things that every other laptop or phone costing fraction of the price - but, you know, people tend to not mentally gymnastic themselves into justifying counterfeits, they buy genuine thing instead of stealing it and are proud of it, go figure...

No a better comparison would be Sony charging you 30 percent more because you live in country A over country B because they think you are too dimwitted to tell the difference.

At this point I somewhat support the purchase of recast or 3rd party products because it provides an element of competition in the market that FW has to deal with. A competitive market is good for the consumer because it requires the businesses to innovate and provide a quality product at a COMPETITIVE price. The very basis of a healthy economy is rooted in competition and is why capitalism is by far the best economic system we have. If there is no competition in the market FW can charge whatever they want and you will have to pay it if you want their product. However when there is another guy across the street who will sell you the same thing for less why on earth would you buy the more expensive option?

Having recasters and 3rd party helps the consumers by requiring FW to either up their game or lose the game. The only way for the consumer to win is to vote with their wallet by taking their business somewhere else. FW is pricing itself out of the market through subpar PR and price gouging. They will either have to react and adjust prices appropriately or suffer a loss in profit through a combination of lack of sales because of the price and the outright ire of their customers.

We see this kind of thing happen in video games like battlefront 2 and battlefield 5. In one instance they price gouged the customers (who boycotted it and had it changed) and in the other they insulted their fans and outright said "Don't like it don't buy it". This has led to these products suffering in the sales department due to a combination of a competitive market (I'll go buy another shooter instead) and horrible PR (Screw you I WONT buy it.)

GW still has all the power in this situation. If they don’t like recasters they should release new and better models for a price point where people find it easier to get those models from them over some other provider. They can do this easily. If they choose otherwise, I think Forgeworld sinks slowly for a while then get the Specialist games exit from the stage.

And please hold your hate on recasts and 3d printing. If done even ½ way right, you can’t tell anyway.

I like FW minis alot. Yes, I also happen to live in the UK.

FW itself has, imho, become outdated and is redundant. There is nothing in their line which GW couldn't do in plastic.

Example, DKoK company at ease got a relatively decent turnaround for a new mold. Grenadiers? Still waiting after a long time irrespective of concentrating more on Specialist Games. Odd.

Lack of harmonisation with GW and FW rules - don't even get me started on how shafted R&H are these days.

Subsume FW resources into GW and just can it already.

The price hike in the US is just GW plc passing the costs of that privelege, I use the term loosely, onto the US market.

Oh, and they canned R&H as a line - yeah cheers for that.

 Irbis wrote:
May I ask how exactly giving money to parasitic thieves benefits anyone?

Easy. I have a pretty decent-looking version of a model that Forge World was already charging a hefty price for, and after adding a 25% price increase to the model- I have absolutely no problem doing this. Oh, and by our countries' standard of law we can scream and call them thieves, but... most of these guys live in countries where if you tried to label that 'theft'- the authorities would laugh in your face. And probably demand you pay them for wasting their time. It is what it is.

 Irbis wrote:
Yes, maybe you will see some garbage third party stand-ins in short run. In long run? Enjoy your toxic resin shelf warmers as FW pulls the plug from the armies recasts took over, like they just did with Elysians. No rules equates 100% money spent on them down the drain, it's that simple.

Garbage? What's funny is I've got a few Forge World authentics and a few 'High Quality Proxy Variants from Overseas'. Infantry AND tanks. I sold quite a bit of it locally not long ago. Some assembled, some not. Wanna take a guess at which ones actually got sold first because of the quality of the mold? If you said, "The ones you paid the Brits hundreds for", you'd hear a buzzer and that'd be the end of this round of trivia. The answer is "garbage third-party stand-ins". Yeah, go figure- those had better mold alignment, less trash, no holes or weird knobs, none of the crap.

And 'toxic'? All resin is toxic, my friend. Some of it is REALLY bad and you'll find out who they are... but you don't just go and buy from any Shanghai recaster online. There's 'good and bad', and you always know who you're buying from through someone you know that can show you. And washing them in the sink with lots of dish soap works wonders.

Forge World apparently realizes that the recasters are out there. I don't think that's lost on them at all, because they were eagerly nuking every Facebook comment that even mentioned it in any way at all- even people who condemned it as a practice. And at a certain point, they decided that raising the prices 25% was a valid business strategy.

You worry about them erasing the rules for an army? I don't. Because once they see the drop in sales to the US, they'll hopefully recognize the mistake. And I'll gladly go back to getting their stuff if this happens because I REALLY don't like some guy at a tournament or FLGS having a hissy-fit over 'bootleg models' (I don't bring them to these sorts of things for a reason, only private club games). However, they made this decision knowing full well what us Yanks and those guys that live upside down will do- and if we had reservations about it before, we certainly don't have any now. And that can't be a thought that hasn't crossed their mind.

Because maybe- and call me a crazy, tin-foil hat kook- but I'm pretty sure that Forge World's not going to be producing nearly as much of this stuff as they did before, and they're trying to make as much as they can before they go back to producing extremely specific specialties like they did before. I could be wrong, I'd like to be, but that's the only logical reason for this kind of bold and reckless price hike.

Yal probably should drop the whole recast thing by now

considering its


on dakka.

personally this price hike is pretty lame. but eh if they do these free shipping promos more often at a much lower price then i dunno. maybe. the amount of time saved looking for flakes to jump into a bigger order might make me consider it.

A GW price hike, what a shock. More reason not to buy anything from them. Obscene prices. Mediocre rules and increasingly mediocre sculpts. Why bother?

I was saving for a Porphyrion - at 330GBP that worked out to be around $580AUD (give or take a few bucks). The AU price is $760. That's almost $200 more for no good reason!

So I thought maybe I'd grab a Spartan instead. UK price is 110GBP ($195AUD) and it's $260 for AU. Hardly "an extra beer" increase that I've seen some posters argue.

This has put me right off Forgeworld entirely.

Part of me is wondering where GW is going in the future. It's becoming increasingly clear that they want to simplify the model line, delete options and generally make units more generic. Forge world recently has purged a ton of options and seems to be trying to make as much money as it can on the remaining stock before much of it also goes the way of the dodo.

 Desubot wrote:
Yal probably should drop the whole recast thing by now

considering its


on dakka.

personally this price hike is pretty lame. but eh if they do these free shipping promos more often at a much lower price then i dunno. maybe. the amount of time saved looking for flakes to jump into a bigger order might make me consider it.

It's fine to talk about recasts, just don't link to any sites.

Personally I've found recasters to have the same quality as Forgeworld and after the beating Her Majesty's Prison Australia just took I'll be putting in another order with our Asian friends up north.

 Irbis wrote:

Justyn wrote:

Goodbye FW, Hello China.

These are the real winners here. There is a significant chunk of folks who used to purchase FW products who will now purchase 3rd party or recasts. The actual good news from this is we may see more Manufacturers of good stand in models. Things like the Dreamforge Knights, or the Alternative Primarchs.

May I ask how exactly giving money to parasitic thieves benefits anyone?

Yes, maybe you will see some garbage third party stand-ins in short run. In long run? Enjoy your toxic resin shelf warmers as FW pulls the plug from the armies recasts took over, like they just did with Elysians. No rules equates 100% money spent on them down the drain, it's that simple.

And I am not defending price hike, far from it. I won't buy anything from FW at this rate, but it seems some people are so entitled they prefer to pay criminals in order to have their pay to win toy. Do tell, when you guys see a say Ferrari or Bentley, is your first instinct to smash the window in with a rock too to get in without paying?

And please don't compare that to virtual goods with zero production costs. That's just dumb. The FW minis can't materialize out of thin air on a whim, they are still luxury good that needs to be produced by people paid UK wages, utilizing designs of UK designers and mould makers, paying local taxes too. Mind enlightening us how they are supposed to compete with chinese parasite content with a fraction of the money, paying no taxes, having no safety restrictions in materials used?

Better comparison would be anything made by Apple or Sony, really overpriced stuff that does exact same things that every other laptop or phone costing fraction of the price - but, you know, people tend to not mentally gymnastic themselves into justifying counterfeits, they buy genuine thing instead of stealing it and are proud of it, go figure...

FW buisness practice leading to rules for models being thrown out the window doesnt actually have anything to do with recasters or third party directly; they are filling a void in the invisible hand left their by forgeworld themselves, as it does. This is how the world (most places) has decided we should do our economics. Adding morality into a Lockian idea of econmoics is actually kind of absurd; their is none inherently in the system itself. Morality is (as a facade) injected into the system by indivduals. Morality in 'the hand' is already sorted out via demand.

IMO your angst is very misplaced. Third party and recasters can and will only exsist out of some discontent (out of neccisity, as via demand) for products that ultimately fall under the initial power of forgeworld. GW as a whole seems to be grasping this concept more as of late, with an increase in sales something like 40% this year if I recall correctly this year. Its obvious the fw price spikes don't coincide with the rest of what GW has been doing as a whole however. This is merely a play by a company they choose to make; the third party market is only a reaction to it. A reaction which is quite perdictable and one which im sure they are very aware.

 plark wrote:
send POLITE emails

After seeing some examples of how people wanted to complain about Grey Knights, most of these guys aren't capable of that.

I'm not sure why everyone is getting so worked up over this. I agree that the price hike sucks, but there is a simple solution. All you have to do is not buy it. If I really want to run a FW model that I can't afford I will kit bash one. It's part of the hobby anyways.

As much as I understand how annoying the price hike is, I'm honestly stunned that people are attempting to use a monopoly argument to justify using recasters. That's ridiculous.

GW do not have a monopoly.

There are countless other miniatures games out there, they are the competition to GW. If you don't like what GW does, give your money to a different company.

It's like saying Sony is running a monopoly because only they sell a PS4.

This in no way justifies supporting criminals.

I'm not entirely sure how much the recast market impacts Forgeworld personally. As someone told me when I was worried about game products I sell digitally being pirated...he said "Look, if they're going to pirate them, they were never going to buy them anyway".

I look at it the same way with Forgeworld and recasters. In many instances (the local community here has a lot of recasts I've seen) the people buying cheap copies of stuff were never going to buy the original ones from Forgeworld anyway. It's not a begrudging "Well, can't buy it for $40, I guess I'll pay $130..." etc.

Now...is that $40 perhaps something they'd spend on GW plastic instead? Maybe. I'm not advocating it, but I do think recasts don't impact Forgeworld as much as their own prices impact Forgeworld. I'd imagine if the Forgeworld prices were 'sane' (to put it nicely) you'd see a lot more legitimate stuff - assuming they stepped up their quality a bit.

Personally I'll keep buying 3rd party stuff instead, like Kromlech etc. Gives me a similar look for half the price...works for me. I don't tournament, etc. so I don't need official turrets or bits on my stuff.

Anyone yet mention that this is probably future-proofing for Brexit. As is the warehouse in the states. I'd be shocked if they didn't have a warehouse here in the actual EU, too. Once Brexit kicks in import, export and associated tariffs and costs will go up. British stuff will get more expensive and we outside the UK can look forward to paying the same import tax we have to pay on US goods, unless the product comes from an EU source.

I think they're baking in this stuff, now and leveraging six months sneaky profit off the back of it.

P.S. I'm Irish, and live in Ireland, in spite of what that flag on my profile says.

Because maybe- and call me a crazy, tin-foil hat kook- but I'm pretty sure that Forge World's not going to be producing nearly as much of this stuff as they did before, and they're trying to make as much as they can before they go back to producing extremely specific specialties like they did before. I could be wrong, I'd like to be, but that's the only logical reason for this kind of bold and reckless price hike.

I have been kinda tin-foil hatting myself, but with the amount of new specialty games that are being done in plastic I do feel like common releases will be in plastic, but upgrades and so will be done in resin. I mean, we have Horus Heresy plastic kits, Adeptus Titanicus, Blood Bowl, Necromunda, and soon Middle Earth. All these things are being released in plastic with upgrade and special units being released in resin.

 Irbis wrote:


And I am not defending price hike, far from it. I won't buy anything from FW at this rate, but it seems some people are so entitled they prefer to pay criminals in order to have their pay to win toy.

I can't agree more with this. EXALT!

Its one thing to boycott FW for price hikes. I think this is the right thing to do if you feel strongly about it as I do but you should not ever promote recasting even in a humorous way. Those people are the cancer in our hobby

 Nithaniel wrote:

 Irbis wrote:


And I am not defending price hike, far from it. I won't buy anything from FW at this rate, but it seems some people are so entitled they prefer to pay criminals in order to have their pay to win toy.

I can't agree more with this. EXALT!

Its one thing to boycott FW for price hikes. I think this is the right thing to do if you feel strongly about it as I do but you should not ever promote recasting even in a humorous way. Those people are the cancer in our hobby

How so? They only recast GW and FW.
You don't see perry and Rubicon getting recasts.
So how are they all cancer on our hobby?

Or are we labelling GW and FW (companies) as a hobby again?

ValentineGames wrote:

How so? They only recast GW and FW.
You don't see perry and Rubicon getting recasts.
So how are they all cancer on our hobby?

Or are we labelling GW and FW (companies) as a hobby again?

I've bought Warlord tanks on eBay that turned out to be recast.

ValentineGames wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:

 Irbis wrote:


And I am not defending price hike, far from it. I won't buy anything from FW at this rate, but it seems some people are so entitled they prefer to pay criminals in order to have their pay to win toy.

I can't agree more with this. EXALT!

Its one thing to boycott FW for price hikes. I think this is the right thing to do if you feel strongly about it as I do but you should not ever promote recasting even in a humorous way. Those people are the cancer in our hobby

How so? They only recast GW and FW.
You don't see perry and Rubicon getting recasts.
So how are they all cancer on our hobby?

Or are we labelling GW and FW (companies) as a hobby again?

You haven't looked very hard then as they'll counterfeit anything (badly) they can make money on. They've even done Mantic of all things. These people don't care as long as they make money.

ValentineGames wrote:

How so? They only recast GW and FW.
You don't see perry and Rubicon getting recasts.
So how are they all cancer on our hobby?

Or are we labelling GW and FW (companies) as a hobby again?

They don't just recast FW and GW; that's just the most public and profitable. There ws a company recasting the old Rackham models ofr years - they've only recently stopped as a new firm took over Rackham; however that recasting setup is rarer in that they've now done their own model line KS - I'd wager them the exception rather than the rule.


And whilst GW is not the whole hobby it is the gateway into the hobby for a VAST majority of people. In addition don't forget money you spend on GW at a GW store or at your local independent keeps those businesses running. That means shops for gamers to buy from; tables to play on; clubs to be a part of etc.. A local store does a lot to help recruit new players and support existing ones. Furthermore the money you spend on legitimate models goes back in to pay for the jobs and training and experience of staff. Many other companies have staff who have worked in part or full for GW (eg contract sculptors). So by paying recasters who only copy work and only take profits out and who are not re-investing into any part of the industry you are leaching money right out of the system.

It only ever hurts the system as a whole.

By all means don't get FW models; heck stop getting GW models altogether; but buy into another legitimate company rather than going to recasters.

The recaster chestnut will never die. Its as old as the internet itself.

 Irbis wrote:
And I am not defending price hike, far from it. I won't buy anything from FW at this rate, but it seems some people are so entitled they prefer to pay criminals in order to have their pay to win toy. Do tell, when you guys see a say Ferrari or Bentley, is your first instinct to smash the window in with a rock too to get in without paying?

Apples to oranges, but usually the knock off product is lower quality than the original; in a lot of cases it's the opposite when it comes to FW. That doesn't excuse recasters (they're a plague in pretty much every other industry/game with dodgy, inferior, and sometimes outright dangerous, in the case of electronics and tools, knock offs stealing money from the actual creators), but it highlights a clear failing they decided to simply ignore; fixing up their issues before making this move would have worked out far better for them. This was a misstep that will, unfortunately for FW, only push more people towards these recasters.

To make it clear as well, I'm not advocating the use of recasters.

 Nithaniel wrote:
Its one thing to boycott FW for price hikes. I think this is the right thing to do if you feel strongly about it as I do but you should not ever promote recasting even in a humorous way. Those people are the cancer in our hobby

Someone using a fake imitation war toy is far from 'the cancer' in our hobby. In the grand scheme of things, there's a lot worse going on and policing where someone acquires their war toy that probably isn't going on your table is barely a blip on the radar. In fact, most of the time, that sort of Toy Policing will get you tossed out into the street, or at least laughed into the streets at a minimum.

Does it impact our hobby? I don't know, you tell me- see, we have a few neckbeards that will sell their bride on the black market, overdraft their accounts, and eat Ramen noodles for six months just to get a model no matter what the cost is. Those guys are the ones that enable this absurd price-gouging from FW and GW.

The rest of us- actual mature, reasonable, and rational adults- aren't going to drop money on something that's ludicrously overpriced. So, as one of those individuals I can tell you- Forge World wasn't getting my money for that war toy when it randomly increased in cost by 25%. Whether I spend that cash on a recast version, or on a completely different toy altogether doesn't matter- they weren't getting a sale, even if they were the only possible means to acquire the model at all.

So if you wanna play Toy Police, go right ahead.

Hell, as it's been pointed out- it would be different if Forge World was just the Bee's Knees when it came to quality models, but it isn't. I've pulled stuff out of boxes and curled my lip in disgust. 'Faster Shipping' doesn't mean a damned thing when I have to replace mis-cast, warped, and pitted model components. If Forge World had outstanding quality control, I'd shun recasters. But at this rate, Hong Kong Phoney is cranking out better stuff than FW half the time, at least.

Less ranty mode this time.

In terms of recasters, FW will only have themselves to blame if there is a notable increase in their dubious business. FW has effectively priced itself out of the international market.

I dread to think what people in Aus and NZ are paying.

Please note: I am not advocating the use of recasters but at the same time FW have no right seeking sympathy from its international fanbase.

They really did increase the price pretty high.

Doctors & Lawyers can afford those big dollar prices.

What ticks me off is they are removing stuff all the time.

I wanted to get more different legion weapons but they are gone!

The left overs got the prices jacked up.

beast_gts wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

How so? They only recast GW and FW.
You don't see perry and Rubicon getting recasts.
So how are they all cancer on our hobby?

Or are we labelling GW and FW (companies) as a hobby again?

I've bought Warlord tanks on eBay that turned out to be recast.

So like FW they were actually half decent and not gak?

Part of the reason recasters might have better quality control is that whilst they do have an impact on sales; they are likely selling FAR fewer models. So their production setup is likely geared to low scale production not mass production. As such:

1) What casting system they use likely endures far less wear and tear so possible errors and issues with older moulds just isn't a problem for them.
Of course chances are they are also using moulds that might need replacing far more often so never get the volume of production wear and tear that official ones get

2) Small scale meals more chance for them to quality check the results for each order that goes out; and with more time than those typically producing for mass sale

3) Because their overheads are drastically lower and because they have nothing to pay for product support they can afford to spend more time checking parts and replacing any failed castings.

4) They produce far less so there are fewer customers which means any complaints appear to be far fewer in number. Even if the actual number of failings as a percentage of the total they produce is more error prone than that of FW. * That most forums don't allow chat about recasters and quality aspects it might also be that the actual reports of failed castings is far fewer online than it might be in reality - cheaper prices and that its a "recasting" might also make some more tolerant/accepting of errors than if they'd ordered from FW. **


IT's mostly the same as why many home castings (not recastings) can appear to have far fewer errors than FW produces. The average person home casting isn't producing in volume.



* If FW ships 1000 models with 25% errors that is 250 problems to be resolved
If a recaster ships 10 models with 50% errors then that is only 5 problems to be resolved.

The recaster still has a higher number of errors shipped, but because the overall number of customers is so much less it appears. Note these numbers are totally random and just used to prove a point.

** I'm not discounting personal experiences here, but speaking of the market as a whole.

I think the price hike is gak (anything that cost more money is gunna be gak). However, it's not a super big deal. The game is expensive (for things made of plastic/resin that physically probably cost feth all each to actually produce, the cost is in the intellectual development, staffing, production and design). Moreover, with inflation everything gets more expensive. I'm not super phased, I will still buy. I think people here have a conniption over nothing really big all the time (Dakkadakka comments are known for it). For example, my last forgeworld purchase was https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-AU/Necromunda-Hired-Guns-Collection-2018 . Cost $90 AUD now, was $86 before. I don't really give a rats ass it is what it is now.

Last things I bought from FW were Epic Warhounds, and only because I really, really wanted them to round out a 5k points army, and was a bit flush at the time.
FW has pretty much always been in the 'nope, that's just too expensive' bracket.for me. Generally superb models ofc, but just too far the wrong side of the VFM equation. When 30K got going I priced up an Iron Warriors army, and just laughed at the result

 Peregrine wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
All the prices I'm seeing line up with show prices. Nothing new to me.

That's because their show prices were already massively inflated and no sane person ever paid them. Now they're the only choice unless you live in the UK.

Apparently you've not been to a convention with a FW booth. By the time you elbow your way to the booth, you'll find most of their stock gone already. Last LVO my buddy spent ~700 USD at the Forgeworld booth and paid about ~150 over internet price since it was catalog price. When I pointed this out, his reply was, 'True. But I got to buy it from FW in person.'

I think it's going to be a bubble of grumpy hurrumphs that will pop and then it will be business as usual.

"Wait just a minute Mr. Dealer, are you saying you're rising the cost of your crack by 25%? Well that's nonsense. Time for me to get clean." , said no addict ever.

What I've learned from this thread....

More recasters and 3d prints are coming.
Many recaster's quality is higher than FW quality.
All this glut will find its way to Ebay.

Well I buy my FW off ebay, and I won't be able to tell its fake, and neither will other people, so not a big deal?

It's like FW wants to help the recasters out. Seriously, hiking the prices is going to make people want to buy from recasters, or at the very least from the secondary market for genuine FW stuff (like on eBay). If enough hobbyists vote with their wallets maybe, just maybe, FW will realize what a disastrous mistake they made. Probably not, but maybe.

 Overread wrote:
Part of the reason recasters might have better quality control is that whilst they do have an impact on sales; they are likely selling FAR fewer models. So their production setup is likely geared to low scale production not mass production. As such:

1) What casting system they use likely endures far less wear and tear so possible errors and issues with older moulds just isn't a problem for them.
Of course chances are they are also using moulds that might need replacing far more often so never get the volume of production wear and tear that official ones get

2) Small scale meals more chance for them to quality check the results for each order that goes out; and with more time than those typically producing for mass sale

3) Because their overheads are drastically lower and because they have nothing to pay for product support they can afford to spend more time checking parts and replacing any failed castings.

4) They produce far less so there are fewer customers which means any complaints appear to be far fewer in number. Even if the actual number of failings as a percentage of the total they produce is more error prone than that of FW. * That most forums don't allow chat about recasters and quality aspects it might also be that the actual reports of failed castings is far fewer online than it might be in reality - cheaper prices and that its a "recasting" might also make some more tolerant/accepting of errors than if they'd ordered from FW.

But you could make the same argument for any other instance of knock-off Chinese products, like electronics and clothing, yet they're universally known for inferior quality. I can't think of any product where the knock-offs are known for better quality; economies of scale generally work in the advantage of a company with industrial processes and dedicated QC personnel, not the garage business where the maker is also doing QC and shipping.

(rest of this not aimed at you directly, just general comments)

Most Westerners will buy properly licensed electronics and other luxury goods despite the prevalence of Chinese knock-offs, on account of some mixture of OEM after-sale support, easy availability, and higher quality offsetting what is typically not that much of a price difference.

So look at Forge World with respect to those reasons. After-sale support is limited to QC, because these are model kits, not computers with warranty. For most of us you can't buy FW locally, so you're going to be making an online order and waiting for shipping anyways. The quality for Forge World is really rather appalling, as compared to stuff from eg Victoria Miniatures it's full of mold lines, flash, occasional slips, and broken and bent pieces all over the place. And the price was absolutely astronomical before, let alone after this price hike, while the illegitimate ripoffs are far lower cost.

Most people I've talked to have said that they'd, hypothetically, put up with more QC issues if it meant getting FW models for a third of the price. That's a trade-off between quality and price. But if recasters have fewer QC issues at a fraction of the price, then really the only remaining impetus to buy legit is a desire to do the legally correct thing. And boy, that is a really bad thing to rely on as a business.

Forge World's situation strikes me as less like Apple or Microsoft electronics, and more like Louis Vuitton handbags or Beats By Dre. Their prices are considerably higher than that of competitors in their domain (third-party), and they don't offer any intrinsic superiority in their product compared to that of the unlicensed copiers (recasters). If it were 2008 this would be less of an issue, but it's 2018, China is now accessible to the average Westerner through sites like Aliexpress and Taobao, and GW/FW can't afford to ignore that reality.

That's not even touching on their bizarre policies regarding stocking, with random products in the FW line being unavailable for years or retired without warning. I don't know what I'm supposed to do about my Renegade Militia army if I want to expand it, as I can't tell legitimate from recast on eBay. I suspect there are a lot of players who simply wouldn't care, and don't have any qualms about buying recast OOP models.

I really don't want Forge World to disappear, but recasters are a problem of FW's own making, and that means it's their problem to solve. Their prices are just so out of line with the service they provide, and price hikes like this only exacerbate and call attention to the issue.

Let's be realistic about recaster quality, it's far from the utopian ideal people keep presenting it as. I've seen a lot of recasts that are much worse than legitimate kits, to the point that they're suitable only for throwing in the trash. Horrible mold slip, parts broken in shipping, brittle resin that chips if you look at it too hard, bubbles everywhere, etc. If you buy recasts you're taking a gamble on getting acceptable quality, and I doubt you're getting FW/GW's solid return policy.

SirWeeble wrote:
I just ordered a bunch of DKOK deathriders - luckily before FW changed their prices. Unfortunately it looks like going forward they're going to be hiking their already steep prices by 25% or so for US customers. Also - apparently less availability. Quite a few items available in the UK are not available in the US now.

Does anyone know if there will still be a way to buy from the UK? I really didn't mind saving up and making a large purchase all at once to get free express shipping. This 'convenience' of faster and cheaper shipping really is moot if we have to pay 25% more.

Goodbye ForgeWorld, don't let the door hit you on the way out!

 Peregrine wrote:
Let's be realistic about recaster quality, it's far from the utopian ideal people keep presenting it as. I've seen a lot of recasts that are much worse than legitimate kits, to the point that they're suitable only for throwing in the trash. Horrible mold slip, parts broken in shipping, brittle resin that chips if you look at it too hard, bubbles everywhere, etc. If you buy recasts you're taking a gamble on getting acceptable quality, and I doubt you're getting FW/GW's solid return policy.

Gotta know the right ones then I guess.

Without confirming or denying that I personally use recasters... I can confirm that the quality of items I have seen from recasters is consistently better then Forge World.

Nah, the recasters arr typically worse.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nah, the recasters arr typically worse.

Did you just pirate-speak an opinion?

I don't even agree with you, but you're getting an exalt for that one.

I used to buy recasts but the quality took a real dive when they shifted to grey resin, at one point they used the EXACT same resin as forge world to the point you literally could not tell the difference, then the Calth boxset came out and it was cheaper to buy that than go recast, I’d never buy tanks or anything larger than basic infantry from them though as I’ve seen some real crap from mates.

While the price hike doesn’t affect me while I’m in the U.K., I get sent over seas for log periods and have bought FW while away, so it does affect me indirectly, I won’t be buying FW until this gets sorted out.

 Formosa wrote:
I used to buy recasts but the quality took a real dive when they shifted to grey resin, at one point they used the EXACT same resin as forge world to the point you literally could not tell the difference, then the Calth boxset came out and it was cheaper to buy that than go recast, I’d never buy tanks or anything larger than basic infantry from them though as I’ve seen some real crap from mates.

I think the worst I've seen was from a friend as well, some random recaster site that none of us had heard of. Every gun was warped like a noodle, it was garbage.

We usually only do recasts for very specific things- things no longer produced, individual components that you can only get by purchasing an entirely new model, etc. The recaster we use is more than willing to make a turret component or infantry torso on its own and sell it for a reasonable price. It's a lot easier than trying to wait another month for FW to replace it. And this recaster is outstanding, and his resin is still darker than FW, but now that obvious knock-off stuff. You would think it was actual FW resin until you held it against FW resin.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nah, the recasters arr typically worse.

Did you just pirate-speak an opinion?

I don't even agree with you, but you're getting an exalt for that one.

I'm just glad someone caught that. That's my second pirate joke in the forum.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm just glad someone caught that. That's my second pirate joke in the forum.

These things just don't slip me eye, ye swabbie.

 Formosa wrote:
I used to buy recasts but the quality took a real dive when they shifted to grey resin, at one point they used the EXACT same resin as forge world to the point you literally could not tell the difference, then the Calth boxset came out and it was cheaper to buy that than go recast, I’d never buy tanks or anything larger than basic infantry from them though as I’ve seen some real crap from mates.

While the price hike doesn’t affect me while I’m in the U.K., I get sent over seas for log periods and have bought FW while away, so it does affect me indirectly, I won’t be buying FW until this gets sorted out.

Again, while neither confirming nor denying my personal ownership of chinacast models, I've seen very little issue with large kits. Some, such as rhino's are prone to breaking at thin points, but larger kits have by and large been utterly perfect with zero defects. Compare it to the Spartan I got from Forgeworld that had .75" thick blocks of resin directly attached to my tracks that took hours to shave off properly, or the Eldar Nightwing whose wings were so utterly warped that they were impossible to reshape and make the kit look decent...

All I know is I have never once bought a large kit from FW that wasn't defective in some manner.

FYI advocating illegal activities such as IP piracy including recasting is not allowed on Dakka Dakka.

 Peregrine wrote:
Let's be realistic about recaster quality, it's far from the utopian ideal people keep presenting it as. I've seen a lot of recasts that are much worse than legitimate kits, to the point that they're suitable only for throwing in the trash. Horrible mold slip, parts broken in shipping, brittle resin that chips if you look at it too hard, bubbles everywhere, etc. If you buy recasts you're taking a gamble on getting acceptable quality, and I doubt you're getting FW/GW's solid return policy.

Yeah, every single time I have had an issue with a model from FW, they replaced part if not all of it until it met my standards. If it is a bad cast, let them know and they’ll replace it. Most of the time they express shipped it back too. I have never left an interaction with GW/FW’s Customer Service unsatisfied. I am not saying the price hike isn’t stupid. But there is quality to be had with GW/FW.

Median Trace wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Let's be realistic about recaster quality, it's far from the utopian ideal people keep presenting it as. I've seen a lot of recasts that are much worse than legitimate kits, to the point that they're suitable only for throwing in the trash. Horrible mold slip, parts broken in shipping, brittle resin that chips if you look at it too hard, bubbles everywhere, etc. If you buy recasts you're taking a gamble on getting acceptable quality, and I doubt you're getting FW/GW's solid return policy.

Yeah, every single time I have had an issue with a model from FW, they replaced part if not all of it until it met my standards. If it is a bad cast, let them know and they’ll replace it. Most of the time they express shipped it back too. I have never left an interaction with GW/FW’s Customer Service unsatisfied. I am not saying the price hike isn’t stupid. But there is quality to be had with GW/FW.

It varies from recaster to recaster. Some have amazing customer service and will replace things and send extra stuff. Others not so much. Honestly I would say overall quality tends to be better for recasters, but language barriers are a thing. If you have a problem it is much easier to explain to a native speaker at FW/GW than via pictures and simplified English to a recaster. I think ultimately the real issue is models can lose rule support if they become too unpopular or discontinued for too long. The power level only units from Forgeworld are a good example of what could go wrong. Although there are also things with rule support like the custom Hammerhead turrets that you currently can only get from a recaster even though there is demand for them.

Yep. China stuff has been great! GW rules and narrative have beenaughable. Gone is the thinly veiled parody of contemporary empires in decline through machinations of chaos and instead we have ... Orruks? Aelfs? Primaris weenies? Yuk. Gw can dry up and blow away.

A resin made of gold now turned platinum, and terrible rules where units vary from bad to hilarously overpowered from edition to edition. Hope their karma finally reaches FW for their greed and poor rules writing and they go bankrupt.

I sympathise with you non-UKers, but something like this was inevitable if they introduced regional pricing. I’m going to compare with USD given that applies to most of you here, but the same logic applies to other currencies too. I’ve just had a browse around the main GW site and the FW site, switching between GBP and USD, and it looks as though they’re applying pretty much the same conversion as they do for the rest of their products – the USD price is the GBP price multiplied by something in the region of 1.6 or 1.7, then adjusted to a round-looking number.

It’s effectively a FW price hike for you guys because the GBP is weak at the moment, but you’ve been at the mercy of exchange rates whenever thinking about ordering FW. Just a quick search shows that in August 2015, the GBP was worth nearly 1.6 USD – so the new FW US prices are the same as what you would have paid if you had ordered three years ago. In August 2008 you could get very nearly 2 USD for 1 GBP – so you’d have been getting the better deal with these prices. With the admittedly small number of data points above, the fact that the GBP has been worth anything from a little over 1USD to 2USD over the last 10 years should be a clear explanation for why they’ve set the general USD prices across GW the way they have.

The GBP may go up again. It may even go up again enough that you’re better off with the regional prices, though given the uncertainty surrounding the looming Brexit I doubt that will happen any time soon. You’ve had a period of unusually “cheap” FW with the weak GBP, and it’s unfortunate that it’s had to come to an end.

This is always going to be an issue with regional pricing vs ordering direct from the country of origin. Any company setting regional prices doesn’t want to have to fluctuate them as the exchange rate changes, so they’re always going to want to set them based on the normal long-term variation of exchange rates between the two currencies such that they can make a satisfactory profit unless the exchange rate goes nuts. In addition to the exchange rate, they need to factor in warehousing and distribution, freight, customs, import duties and any other local taxes. Plus, if their analyists are worth their salt they’ll take into account local competition, popularity in the market, and then average wages and disposable income of their likely customers in the market. It’s the local conditions that mean price comparisons between countries difficult to make. It may be irritating to learn that you’re paying more in USD than a British collector does in GBP – but then I believe the average American earns a fair bit more than the average Brit, so that might make them think that you can afford to pay more. Are wargamers ‘average’? You’d have to ask the analysts.

It’s perhaps important to bring up Brexit again, since it might be a driver in this. It seems more likely that the UK will crash out of the EU without a deal in place, potentially reverting to WTO rules rather than bilateral trade deals, which may increase the costs for British companies exporting goods. It may be that GW looked at their figures, realised that they were making less profit off FW than they could be if they expanded their regional pricing policy to cover it, and that post-Brexit conditions threaten to eat a bit more of the profit margin away. It’s easy to see why the accountants might want to apply the local prices and boost the profit margins now so that the post-Brexit figures don’t look so ominous.

I feel like I should also say something about who to blame for this. It’s easy to see that FW prices have gone up and then rage at FW as an entity, but I reckon this has GW accountancy department written all over it.

 Bellerophon wrote:
I sympathise with you non-UKers, but something like this was inevitable if they introduced regional pricing. I’m going to compare with USD given that applies to most of you here, but the same logic applies to other currencies too. I’ve just had a browse around the main GW site and the FW site, switching between GBP and USD, and it looks as though they’re applying pretty much the same conversion as they do for the rest of their products – the USD price is the GBP price multiplied by something in the region of 1.6 or 1.7, then adjusted to a round-looking number.

It’s effectively a FW price hike for you guys because the GBP is weak at the moment, but you’ve been at the mercy of exchange rates whenever thinking about ordering FW. Just a quick search shows that in August 2015, the GBP was worth nearly 1.6 USD – so the new FW US prices are the same as what you would have paid if you had ordered three years ago. In August 2008 you could get very nearly 2 USD for 1 GBP – so you’d have been getting the better deal with these prices. With the admittedly small number of data points above, the fact that the GBP has been worth anything from a little over 1USD to 2USD over the last 10 years should be a clear explanation for why they’ve set the general USD prices across GW the way they have.

The GBP may go up again. It may even go up again enough that you’re better off with the regional prices, though given the uncertainty surrounding the looming Brexit I doubt that will happen any time soon. You’ve had a period of unusually “cheap” FW with the weak GBP, and it’s unfortunate that it’s had to come to an end.

This is always going to be an issue with regional pricing vs ordering direct from the country of origin. Any company setting regional prices doesn’t want to have to fluctuate them as the exchange rate changes, so they’re always going to want to set them based on the normal long-term variation of exchange rates between the two currencies such that they can make a satisfactory profit unless the exchange rate goes nuts. In addition to the exchange rate, they need to factor in warehousing and distribution, freight, customs, import duties and any other local taxes. Plus, if their analyists are worth their salt they’ll take into account local competition, popularity in the market, and then average wages and disposable income of their likely customers in the market. It’s the local conditions that mean price comparisons between countries difficult to make. It may be irritating to learn that you’re paying more in USD than a British collector does in GBP – but then I believe the average American earns a fair bit more than the average Brit, so that might make them think that you can afford to pay more. Are wargamers ‘average’? You’d have to ask the analysts.

It’s perhaps important to bring up Brexit again, since it might be a driver in this. It seems more likely that the UK will crash out of the EU without a deal in place, potentially reverting to WTO rules rather than bilateral trade deals, which may increase the costs for British companies exporting goods. It may be that GW looked at their figures, realised that they were making less profit off FW than they could be if they expanded their regional pricing policy to cover it, and that post-Brexit conditions threaten to eat a bit more of the profit margin away. It’s easy to see why the accountants might want to apply the local prices and boost the profit margins now so that the post-Brexit figures don’t look so ominous.

I feel like I should also say something about who to blame for this. It’s easy to see that FW prices have gone up and then rage at FW as an entity, but I reckon this has GW accountancy department written all over it.

A thousand per cent this. FW and GW aren't gouging people while twirling moustaches. They're responding to a pretty dire economic fallout coming down the tracks by trying to get ahead of it.

Our friends in the UK crashing out of the EU is going to have a serious effect on pricing and import duties. I'm in my late 30s and the older I get, the more I realise that voting for stuff actually has a genuine impact on my day to day life.

~60$ for 5 resin dudes is too much regardless of politics.

 Shadenuat wrote:
~60$ for 5 resin dudes is too much regardless of Politics.

I'm just saying that stuff like this doesn't happen in a vacuum. And just wait til ourselves in the EU slap an import tax on this stuff like we do with US luxury goods. GW could conceivably be looking at a huge hit as EU customers look for cheaper alternatives.

Managers generally get thrown out of the window from 20 stories office building for proposing this, but perhaps with all the things happening around they should, you know,

lower the prices.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Managers generally get thrown out of the window from 20 stories office building for proposing this, but perhaps with all the things happening around they should, you know,

lower the prices.

They've never, ever, taken this approach, though. They should. It's how Ryanair operate and look how successful they've been. The only thing is, you might have to sacrifice some of the bells and whistles. Even reduce packaging or something in order to cut extraneous costs.

They could get rid of GW stores and make room for gaming stores...
Crazy as it sounds it works for everyone else.

The problem in GW has always had FW priced as the "elite" or "high end" models of their line. GWs increased pricing over time as well as larger plastic kits have kinda forced FW to up the price to maintain this status. Anyone whos taken some basic business classes can tell you that the psychology to perceive a more expensive item as "better" or "more elite". IMO the smart long-term strategy would be to normalize the pricing between GW and FW and have FW offer more customizable options like they do with rhino doors and transfer sheets now. Do lots of limited runs of small unique stuff for specific armies. that way its essentially adding a "tax" to make an army unique which is something most people try to do with their army.

I was at the new citadel opening here in Texas this morning and there were tons of people complaining about the pricing and openly talking about buying from china. I honestly feel that this was a huge mistake. Even more than raising the price just the fact that the US is being screwed over for no real reason

FWIW, I bought Zarakynel on March 11, 2018. I paid £163.10, including shipping and HST, which converts to $289.47 CAD using the exchange rate from that date.

Today, Zarakynel would cost me $220.35 CAD, including shipping and HST.

So...

"So..."

What you've done here is what several other posters have done. Yes, a handful of models are cheaper. Most are not. I don't think anyone cares about singular model samples, they're more concerned with the general pricing trend which has gone up, not down.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
FWIW, I bought Zarakynel on March 11, 2018. I paid £163.10, including shipping and HST, which converts to $289.47 CAD using the exchange rate from that date.

Today, Zarakynel would cost me $220.35 CAD, including shipping and HST.

So...

So... outliers do not prove the mean.

Banville wrote:

 Bellerophon wrote:
I sympathise with you non-UKers, but something like this was inevitable if they introduced regional pricing. I’m going to compare with USD given that applies to most of you here, but the same logic applies to other currencies too. I’ve just had a browse around the main GW site and the FW site, switching between GBP and USD, and it looks as though they’re applying pretty much the same conversion as they do for the rest of their products – the USD price is the GBP price multiplied by something in the region of 1.6 or 1.7, then adjusted to a round-looking number.

It’s effectively a FW price hike for you guys because the GBP is weak at the moment, but you’ve been at the mercy of exchange rates whenever thinking about ordering FW. Just a quick search shows that in August 2015, the GBP was worth nearly 1.6 USD – so the new FW US prices are the same as what you would have paid if you had ordered three years ago. In August 2008 you could get very nearly 2 USD for 1 GBP – so you’d have been getting the better deal with these prices. With the admittedly small number of data points above, the fact that the GBP has been worth anything from a little over 1USD to 2USD over the last 10 years should be a clear explanation for why they’ve set the general USD prices across GW the way they have.

The GBP may go up again. It may even go up again enough that you’re better off with the regional prices, though given the uncertainty surrounding the looming Brexit I doubt that will happen any time soon. You’ve had a period of unusually “cheap” FW with the weak GBP, and it’s unfortunate that it’s had to come to an end.

This is always going to be an issue with regional pricing vs ordering direct from the country of origin. Any company setting regional prices doesn’t want to have to fluctuate them as the exchange rate changes, so they’re always going to want to set them based on the normal long-term variation of exchange rates between the two currencies such that they can make a satisfactory profit unless the exchange rate goes nuts. In addition to the exchange rate, they need to factor in warehousing and distribution, freight, customs, import duties and any other local taxes. Plus, if their analyists are worth their salt they’ll take into account local competition, popularity in the market, and then average wages and disposable income of their likely customers in the market. It’s the local conditions that mean price comparisons between countries difficult to make. It may be irritating to learn that you’re paying more in USD than a British collector does in GBP – but then I believe the average American earns a fair bit more than the average Brit, so that might make them think that you can afford to pay more. Are wargamers ‘average’? You’d have to ask the analysts.

It’s perhaps important to bring up Brexit again, since it might be a driver in this. It seems more likely that the UK will crash out of the EU without a deal in place, potentially reverting to WTO rules rather than bilateral trade deals, which may increase the costs for British companies exporting goods. It may be that GW looked at their figures, realised that they were making less profit off FW than they could be if they expanded their regional pricing policy to cover it, and that post-Brexit conditions threaten to eat a bit more of the profit margin away. It’s easy to see why the accountants might want to apply the local prices and boost the profit margins now so that the post-Brexit figures don’t look so ominous.

I feel like I should also say something about who to blame for this. It’s easy to see that FW prices have gone up and then rage at FW as an entity, but I reckon this has GW accountancy department written all over it.

A thousand per cent this. FW and GW aren't gouging people while twirling moustaches. They're responding to a pretty dire economic fallout coming down the tracks by trying to get ahead of it.

Our friends in the UK crashing out of the EU is going to have a serious effect on pricing and import duties. I'm in my late 30s and the older I get, the more I realise that voting for stuff actually has a genuine impact on my day to day life.

No.

Before the change GW bore no currency risk because paying £X for anything was paying £X for anything regardless of the prevailing exchange rate.

GW introduced currency risk to the equation by switching purchases to local currencies, then insulated themselves against that risk by slapping a premium on the current rate such that there would have to be a highly significant movement in the economic landscape to mean they receive less than £X for the product.

This is another reason I will not buy anything from Forge World. We're all comparing prices from different regions, completely oblivious to the fact that the prices on FW's site are including the 20% VAT. Even looking at the 5 year high for conversion rate between GBP & USD, which is 1.71, the prices are laughably too high.

For example, a Sicaran is 79 GBP on UK FW. This includes the 20% VAT, as is required over there. 79 GBP converted at 1.71 USD per GBP is $134, which is what I pay with tax for that model (8.25% tax in my state). So this is essentially being taxed twice. Once from VAT, the other from my state. At the 5 year GBP->USD conversion ratio high of 1.71.

The base price for a Sicaran is 66 GBP (w/o VAT). This 66 converted at the year high of 1.43 is only approx $94, which is still really high for a model, but more in line with something I would consider paying. What we actually see on the storefront is $123. Even with extra shipping costs and costs for maintaining a warehouse in the US, this is too high.

TLDR: I'm tired of these prices including VAT when I don't live in Europe.

 Baragash wrote:
No.

Before the change GW bore no currency risk because paying £X for anything was paying £X for anything regardless of the prevailing exchange rate.

GW introduced currency risk to the equation by switching purchases to local currencies, then insulated themselves against that risk by slapping a premium on the current rate such that there would have to be a highly significant movement in the economic landscape to mean they receive less than £X for the product.

Yes, this is true. I wasn't arguing against this point and indeed I wasn't trying to argue in favour of the change. In the first sentence of my post I stated that this was inevitible if they introduced regional pricing. The main thrust of my argument was around why they set the prices at the levels they did, since some people seem to think that they should just be paying, say, USD prices as determined by the current exchange rate. I was also trying to get to the bottom of why they decided to introduce it, rather than just complaining.

Non-UK Forgeworld buyers have had it good for the last couple of years because of the weak GBP. It may not seem that way because this stuff is still very expensive for what it is, but in real terms they were getting a better deal. Unfortunately people quickly get used to a good thing and then feel entitled for it to continue, hence the outrage now that GW have pulled this move. Kind of like how (still using the USA as an example), they're used to paying 1.6x the GBP price for Citadel plastic, but find the idea of paying 1.6x the GBP price for Forgeworld resin to be unacceptable - because until last week they didn't have to pay that much. While it's true that GW have introduced currency risk with this move, at the moment the weak GBP means that this is a big win for them on each and every sale and it's expected to continue for some time. Will sales go down? I suspect they'll see an immediate dip as people vent their anger over this move, but I'm not sure long term. It might also be a victim of its own success. I could easily see a slightly misleading feedback loop forming: Weak GBP > FW more attractive to overseas buyers > FW sales go up > GW thinks there is an increased demand for FW > GW pulls FW into its local pricing structure to better integrate its sales channels with the rest of the business, not realising that they're killing the price advantage that made sales increase in the first place. I can only assume the reason that FW wasn't sold in local currency to begin with was because it was such a small part of their business that they hadn't bothered introducing it yet. If they had increased sales, it was always likely to happen.

The annual investor reports are a good source of what they gain/lose overall according to currency fluctuations. For 2016/17 in particular (since the Brexit vote was mid-2016 and caused a plunge in the value of GBP), the average rates they determine earnings from dropped for both EUR and USD (1.35EUR 2016 to 1.17 EUR 2017. amd 1.49USD 2016 to 1.27USD 2017), and they state that those changes increased their operating profit by £7 million. You can be sure that at least one accountant was looking at the Forgeworld numbers and realised that they could have increased that figure a bit more if FW was sold in local currency. I also suspect that GW have an eye on Brexit coming up, are aware that it's going to impact on their profit margins once it kicks in and therefore they're doing everything they can to maximise their profit margins right now. In Kevin Rountree's review of the year in the 2017-18 report, he has one paragraph where he pretty much says that it will be difficult for them to continue to grow at the same rate as the last couple of years, and it makes sense. The rapid rate of releases over the last couple of years suggests to me that they're trying to maximise profit now in the good times (weak pound, pre-Brexit conditions), to insulate a little bit against the harder times ahead. GW is a squirrel burying its nuts for winter.

 Elbows wrote:
"So..."

What you've done here is what several other posters have done. Yes, a handful of models are cheaper. Most are not. I don't think anyone cares about singular model samples, they're more concerned with the general pricing trend which has gone up, not down.

Cool story, that you didn't even bother trying to support with anything but a grossly generalized comment devoid of any facts.

I'm all in favour of 'price spikes' that would save me $60. YMMV and frankly I don't really give a rat's if your price went up, just like you don't care that mine went down.

Don't buy FW if you can't afford FW. Super simple.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Cool story, that you didn't even bother trying to support with anything but a grossly generalized comment devoid of any facts.

I'm not certain you understand how this works. He doesn't have to write you a research paper. Countless other posters have demonstrated the price change. All he said is just because a single purchase works in your favor doesn't make it universally a good thing. I'm assuming this is your first Forge World purchase. Congratulations, but I hate to break it to you- you are not a part of some elite club.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I'm all in favour of 'price spikes' that would save me $60. YMMV and frankly I don't really give a rat's if your price went up, just like you don't care that mine went down. Don't buy FW if you can't afford FW. Super simple.

This is why I'm in favor of another blanket ban on Forge World. And I say this as someone who owns a LOT of Forge World stuff.

Don't be a jerk if you want to play a social game with other people. Super simple.

Now, how about you try to order something different- try and compare ordering a Fellblade and a Sicaran before and after the price change.

Here's what FW wants the exchange rate to be vs what it is:



Notice how favorable things were for them back in 2008. Americans were on their knees, many without jobs, scrambling to make ends meet or provide for their families. Did FW lock in an exchange rate to protect their friends across the atlantic then? No- they kicked us when we were down.

Now that the tables have turned, and England is in shambles, they want us to pretend like their currency has the same value it did 3 years ago. Well not me- 1776 will commence again.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:


I'm not certain you understand how this works. He doesn't have to write you a research paper. Countless other posters have demonstrated the price change. All he said is just because a single purchase works in your favor doesn't make it universally a good thing. I'm assuming this is your first Forge World purchase. Congratulations, but I hate to break it to you- you are not a part of some elite club.

I'm not? Ouch, my self-worth.

Luckily, I have an invulnerable save against facile assumptions.

Nobody has demonstrated anything, except for that one guy who showed that Zarakynel is a lot cheaper for Canadians now. They have provided some numbers, wholly devoid of any context or meaning.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:


This is why I'm in favor of another blanket ban on Forge World. And I say this as someone who owns a LOT of Forge World stuff.

Don't be a jerk if you want to play a social game with other people. Super simple.

Now, how about you try to order something different- try and compare ordering a Fellblade and a Sicaran before and after the price change.

Why? I don't want either, so why do I care?

Probably best that you take your ball home because a company allegedly did something you don't like. Don't forget to push out your lower lip and make further baseless assumptions about people who don't agree with you. Oh, I see you're ahead of me on that one.

Jog on.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Luckily, I have an invulnerable save against facile assumptions.

Sticking your head up your own backside and bellowing the Golden Girls theme isn't a valid response, and hasn't been since third Edition.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Nobody has demonstrated anything, except for that one guy who showed that Zarakynel is a lot cheaper for Canadians now. They have provided some numbers, wholly devoid of any context or meaning.

Repeatedly the price hike has been shown, not just here but elsewhere. If you've missed that, I'm not sure how your personal math can be considered reliable.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Why? I don't want either, so why do I care?

Because in a few years, when FW isn't a thing, and you can't get your toys- you'll be the first one crying about it. What- you didn't think this price hike was going to work in their favor AND yours, did you? Oh, you poor sweet summer child- one toy purchase works in your favor and you're bending the knee to a company that doesn't care who you are. I almost feel sad for you. Almost.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Probably best that you take your ball home because a company allegedly did something you don't like. Don't forget to push out your lower lip and make further baseless assumptions about people who don't agree with you. Oh, I see you're ahead of me on that one.

Raising prices by 25% is a valid complaint, a bit more than 'something you didn't like'. Then again, it may be difficult if you've never had much experience as an actual adult with real responsibilities beyond a tabletop game. See, many of us have things like bills, families, and even women that have allowed us to touch them in intimate ways- so we can't all be like you. So, while you could very well be the type that's willing to beg friends for a meal, or call your parents with some fabrication about your Debit card being broken, or sell off some trinket that once meant something to you just to get a shiny Forge World toy you've always wanted- most of us, in fact, aren't that sort of person.

Take that for what it's worth.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Jog on.

Oh, son- I will. You just do your best to move off the sidewalk the next time I do.

Of course, I'll be glad to scoot out of the way of big, bad you and your massive, ad hominen, heteronormative assumptions.

I've made two purchases from FW in 22 years of 40k fandom, so when you make up your mind about whether Zarakynel was my first purchase (and entry to "the Hobby 1%", natch) or whether I'm a regular FW-shopper who'll "cry" when they go out of business do let me know.

Presumably you'll continue to flip-flop on the issue depending on which one you think supports whatever naked assertion you're currently making.

You're right though; you can't all be like me.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Of course, I'll be glad to scoot out of the way of big, bad you and your massive, ad hominen, heteronormative assumptions.

"Heteronormative"- ah,right. No argument, go ahead and feign outrage over it instead of actually engaging the argument and seeing things from another perspective other than "I got my toy, f**k everyone else!"

(Psst- it's "Ad-Hominem".)

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I've made two purchases from FW in 22 years of 40k fandom...

Ah, see- this is your second purchase in 22 years. You lucked out, and got one model for a better price. You don't seem to have much experience and perspective on the problem.

Enjoy your new toy, and when you're ready to understand things beyond your own personal satisfaction- you'll understand the legitimacy of these complaints. And could even find someone else to play with.

There is no other perspective. I don't care about you or anyone else here.

GW sells products and I buy the ones I like and can afford. What you like and what you can afford is irrelevant, at best, so wading through threads packed with entitled whingers that seem to think that companies exist to cater to their whims at their pricepoints gets old fast.

I can't afford a Ferrari, so I don't buy Ferraris. I don't go online and whinge and whine about how Ferrari somehow owe me an affordable car, just 'cause I like 'em, and then tell everyone that doesn't agree that they're an insolvent, immature manchild with no appeal to the opposite sex which, by the way, yes, absolutely is heteronormative.

YMMV.

Ad hominen absolutely is not hyphenated, even in the short-form. It doesn't have shonky capitalization either. Where did you school?

 Excommunicatus wrote:
There is no other perspective. I don't care about you or anyone else here.

While I can understand how satisfying that sounds when you read it out loud after you post it, you must understand that this hobby as a whole is bigger than you and what you want. See, in the world of business- when things aren't affordable- well, let's just say it becomes a bit harder to find someone to play with. Ever been to the FLGS and seen all those people playing Horus Heresy? No, because the price point for that wasn't very feasible and it was practically dead on arrival outside of the UK.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
GW sells products and I buy the ones I like and can afford. What you like and what you can afford is irrelevant, at best, so wading through threads packed with entitled whingers that seem to think that companies exist to cater to their whims at their pricepoints gets old fast.

If you believe that a valid customer complaint about 20%-40% price increases on a product is 'entitlement', then you're lacking some significant degree of perspective and understanding. You don't get to pull the edgy 'I don't care about anyone else here, loser nerds!' angle, because this is a very valid reason for individuals to levy a complaint against a business. If you don't understand this, I don't know what to tell you- because it's valid. You'd know if you'd bought more than two items in the last two decades, and were a regular customer.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I can't afford a Ferrari, so I don't buy Ferraris. I don't go online and whinge and whine about how Ferrari somehow owe me an affordable car, just 'cause I like 'em, and then tell everyone that doesn't agree that they're an insolvent, immature manchild with no appeal to the opposite sex which, by the way, yes, absolutely is heteronormative.

I can't afford Ferraris, but I can afford steaks. And I regularly buy those steaks. If my steaks go up 25% in a day, I'm going to complain about it. Because only an insolvent, immature manchild with no appeal to any other human being would wave the one steak he's bought in the last decade over his head and call everyone a whiner and insult them because he's willing to pay this price.

It's your second steak. Don't act like you're a better person because you can afford it. When you buy those steaks in bulk, or at least once every 2 months- then you might understand why people are unsatisfied. But then again, that would require you to think outside of what you want.

Is it difficult for you to find games with people, or at least play with a person more than once? Your toxic attitude tells me it must be.

Keep screaming 'heteronormative' like it's a dog-whistle to win you support. I'm fairly certain you won't find much here.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Ad hominen absolutely is not hyphenated, even in the short-form. It doesn't have shonky capitalization either. Where did you school?

Somewhere they taught spelling. Check again.

Someone needs to do a calculation of the average cost of a plane ticket to Britian from the United States (Say chicago or New York) and then calculate how much it would cost to buy a warlord titan in the UK compared to the US

Oh mate, your insecurities are showing. I don't believe I'm a better person because I bought an expensive mini. The idea is utterly ridiculous, but telling.

If basic necessities randomly increased in price then yeah, I'd complain too. Complaining that your utterly superfluous pile of resin is more expensive than it used to be, which still has not been demonstrated is, in fact, entitlement. What else do you call it? You want a private company to make the models you want at a price you're willing to pay. Doesn't work like that.

The reason I said that you shouldn't buy FW if you can't afford FW was not preening, it was making the point that FW produces a completely unnecessary leisure product. You are complaining that you want a Ferrari but can't afford it so Ferrari should lower their prices. But no, that's not entitlement.

Your incessant barrage of insults and assumptions has definitely swayed my opinion. Good job.

I don't buy steaks, FWIW. Don't like them. Give me a sec to link up the thread where I rant and rave incessantly about my personal preferences re steak and why Big Beef owes me a better-tasting slab of rotting flesh at a lower price.

I would suggest you don't make heteronormative comments in the future if you don't like people pointing them out. I don't care if anyone here supports my argument; I don't care about any of you remember? I posted it maybe fifteen minutes ago. Do keep up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Someone needs to do a calculation of the average cost of a plane ticket to Britian from the United States (Say chicago or New York) and then calculate how much it would cost to buy a warlord titan in the UK compared to the US

I mean, who cares?

I live relatively close to Toronto, but if I want to go see the Leafs play from the lower-bowl it's cheaper for me to go to Buffalo and fly to Arizona or Florida and watch them there than it is to go to Toronto. So what? Does that mean that tickets should be mandated to be sold at or below a certain price level? Or does it mean that nothing has any inherent value except for that placed on it by whoever wishes to acquire it? Or does it simply mean that hockey tickets are a completely unnecessary part of life and if I can't afford them, tough [Expletive Deleted]?

It's pretty funny how quickly the capitalist gloss comes off when people can't afford something they feel entitled to.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Someone needs to do a calculation of the average cost of a plane ticket to Britian from the United States (Say chicago or New York) and then calculate how much it would cost to buy a warlord titan in the UK compared to the US

Flying to the UK and buying a Titan and bringing it back would cost you about $4100.00, and that's a really loose estimation. That's also assuming you weren't trying to do something crazy like buy a plane ticket a week in advance or something.

I'm less concerned about the things like Titans- no one here really uses them. What I've taken issue with is that I rarely ever buy a single thing from Forge World. Usually, I buy several items and I've saved money for a month or so and set it aside for this. This 'price hike' might work in the favor of the individuals that buy a tank here, an upgrade kit there, etc- but for someone who sits and plans an army over time and gets several components- it's a stab.

So, let's just say you're really working on building a Legion or you want a lot of relics in your Chapter, or maybe you like Red Scorpions... the buying multiple things is where you're gonna get smashed.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Someone needs to do a calculation of the average cost of a plane ticket to Britian from the United States (Say chicago or New York) and then calculate how much it would cost to buy a warlord titan in the UK compared to the US

Flying to the UK and buying a Titan and bringing it back would cost you about $4100.00, and that's a really loose estimation. That's also assuming you weren't trying to do something crazy like buy a plane ticket a week in advance or something.

I'm less concerned about the things like Titans- no one here really uses them. What I've taken issue with is that I rarely ever buy a single thing from Forge World. Usually, I buy several items and I've saved money for a month or so and set it aside for this. This 'price hike' might work in the favor of the individuals that buy a tank here, an upgrade kit there, etc- but for someone who sits and plans an army over time and gets several components- it's a stab.

So, let's just say you're really working on building a Legion or you want a lot of relics in your Chapter, or maybe you like Red Scorpions... the buying multiple things is where you're gonna get smashed.

Oh I know, I was planning on doing a massive purchase of the legion upgrades of white scars (But those aren't there anymore....)

So I can't purchase them because they aren't there and they are probably going to be expensive to purchase for no reason other than a stupid price hike.

I cannot afford to pay 20% extra... Its not really consumer friendly at all to do so. And the only reasons they are doing it is because A) Good Ole Greed, B) Brexit, C) The Value of the British Pound Going down and they want more money for it as a result.

Company in Wants to Make Money Shocker

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Complaining that your utterly superfluous pile of resin is more expensive than it used to be, which still has not been demonstrated is, in fact, entitlement. What else do you call it? You want a private company to make the models you want at a price you're willing to pay. Doesn't work like that.

Uh, no. That's not entitlement. That's complaining about a price point. This is a very normal form of customer feedback. Successful businesses and individuals rely on feedback, even in the form of complaints.

The reason I said that you shouldn't buy FW if you can't afford FW was not preening, it was making the point that FW produces a completely unnecessary leisure product. You are complaining that you want a Ferrari but can't afford it so Ferrari should lower their prices. But no, that's not entitlement.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Your incessant barrage of insults and assumptions has definitely swayed my opinion. Good job.

Oh, no- I made generalized statements and you elected to make them about you, as a person. I don't know what kind of life you live an don't care, but if you've found a shoe that fits- please lace it up nice and tight and march on.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I would suggest you don't make heteronormative comments in the future if you don't like people pointing them out. I don't care if anyone here supports my argument; I don't care about any of you remember? I posted it maybe fifteen minutes ago. Do keep up.

I'm not understanding where you think I take issue with the word 'heteronormative'. It sounds like you're crying for attention and help when you've shot yourself in the foot with this argument.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
It's pretty funny how quickly the capitalist gloss comes off when people can't afford something they feel entitled to.

"Entitlement"- I don't think you understand what this word means at all. Customer feedback and complaints aren't 'entitlement', and if you believe so- I hope no one places you in charge of any decisions, unless they're deliberately trying to drive the value of their stock into the ground.

Pretty funny how someone gets a shiny new toy from a company for the second time in his life, and he seems to think it makes him their PR champion.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Company in Wants to Make Money Shocker

Not saying its bad, but its anti-consumer to do this with no other explanation. Honestly I will not purchase another Forge World Product because of this.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Not saying its bad, but its anti-consumer to do this with no other explanation. Honestly I will not purchase another Forge World Product because of this.

He doesn't really understand how this works, Ash. Wanting to make money is fine, but if you jack the prices up out of the blue- you can't be surprised when people take their money to more affordable options. If they wanna get back in the game, and not have recasters taking their business- then they may want to re-evaluate their business model or at least open the communication about the price increases.

I'm not even the sort to complain about GW prices being as high as they are, but even I know that an average 25% price increase isn't going to pay off. It's not only that, but their refusal to engage even the most civil of feedback on Social Media is poor sport (they've been deleting the most politely worded comments that point out the price changes).

Originally I believed recasting was scummy, unless it was an out-of-production model- because I believed the prices were steep, but not completely unreasonable. The way to beat the shipping costs and such was to get more than one person in on an order and make one large purchase together... and I can't help but feel like they've caught on to that and stomped it.

Which, of course, is going to bite them. And it seems to have done exactly that.

I'm neither for nor against FW. I'm pointing out that they are a company whose sole purpose is to make money by selling a superfluous product.

I think you take issue with me flagging your statement as heteronormative because you've now gone out of your way to mention it three times. I think your various "general statements" contained in direct response to me and riffing on things I have posted are not in fact general statements... mostly because they riff on things I have said and are posted in direct response to me.

Oh, you also explicitly referred to me when you were bragging (apropos of nothing) about how women let you touch them which, again, is telling.

Then again, it may be difficult if you've never had much experience as an actual adult with real responsibilities beyond a tabletop game. See, many of us have things like bills, families, and even women that have allowed us to touch them in intimate ways- so we can't all be like you. So, while you could very well be the type that's willing to beg friends for a meal, or call your parents with some fabrication about your Debit card being broken, or sell off some trinket that once meant something to you just to get a shiny Forge World toy you've always wanted- most of us, in fact, aren't that sort of person.

Above, a "generalized statement".

Logic's pretty easy when you walk through it like that.

 Elbows wrote:
I'm not entirely sure how much the recast market impacts Forgeworld personally. As someone told me when I was worried about game products I sell digitally being pirated...he said "Look, if they're going to pirate them, they were never going to buy them anyway".

I look at it the same way with Forgeworld and recasters. In many instances (the local community here has a lot of recasts I've seen) the people buying cheap copies of stuff were never going to buy the original ones from Forgeworld anyway. It's not a begrudging "Well, can't buy it for $40, I guess I'll pay $130..." etc.

Now...is that $40 perhaps something they'd spend on GW plastic instead? Maybe. I'm not advocating it, but I do think recasts don't impact Forgeworld as much as their own prices impact Forgeworld. I'd imagine if the Forgeworld prices were 'sane' (to put it nicely) you'd see a lot more legitimate stuff - assuming they stepped up their quality a bit.

Personally I'll keep buying 3rd party stuff instead, like Kromlech etc. Gives me a similar look for half the price...works for me. I don't tournament, etc. so I don't need official turrets or bits on my stuff.

While I'm not aware of any hard numbers, I have anecdotally seen the same logic lead to more money for GW.

"I was never going to buy that" tends to apply to big centerpiece models. The kind people build armies around. More than one person I know has gone from buying no GW product to buying several boxes of GW product to build an army in support of the counterfeit centerpiece mini they bought (or traded for). GW did not lose a sale of any FW items because no one was planning to buy them at FW prices, but GW did gain sales of plastic minis that complimented a recast mini.

A rip-offf is a rip-off, regardless of whether or not the item in question is a necessity. People have every right to complain when a company is blatantly taking advantage of them. Especially when they lie that they are changing the way they handle shipping to benefit you, the customer, but in reality jack up prices on you instead.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I'm neither for nor against FW. I'm pointing out that they are a company whose sole purpose is to make money by selling a superfluous product.

And you're labeling the criticism of a price change as 'entitlement', which is what one would expect from a caricature of a robber-baron and not a rational, mature, thinking adult.

Yes, this is directed at you personally. Whether you choose to accept this or tell me I'm mistaken in understanding you is entirely up to you.

EDIT: You know, I'm not sinking to this level any more. Screw it.

If you'd like to focus on the price increase topic, that'd probably be better.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
He doesn't really understand how this works, Ash. Wanting to make money is fine, but if you jack the prices up out of the blue- you can't be surprised when people take their money to more affordable options. If they wanna get back in the game, and not have recasters taking their business- then they may want to re-evaluate their business model or at least open the communication about the price increases.

I'm not even the sort to complain about GW prices being as high as they are, but even I know that an average 25% price increase isn't going to pay off. It's not only that, but their refusal to engage even the most civil of feedback on Social Media is poor sport (they've been deleting the most politely worded comments that point out the price changes).

Originally I believed recasting was scummy, unless it was an out-of-production model- because I believed the prices were steep, but not completely unreasonable. The way to beat the shipping costs and such was to get more than one person in on an order and make one large purchase together... and I can't help but feel like they've caught on to that and stomped it.

Which, of course, is going to bite them. And it seems to have done exactly that.

They're not saying anything because it's the smart thing for them not to. Take a look at the video game industry. Companies do anti-consumer things there all the time. When the company keeps quiet people get apathetic. If the company says something it keeps the dialog open and it doesn't go away. If GW and FW stay silent about this it'll quiet down over time and anyone who brings it up will just get attacked by the apathetic masses.

 IronBrand wrote:
They're not saying anything because it's the smart thing for them not to. Take a look at the video game industry. Companies do anti-consumer things there all the time. When the company keeps quiet people get apathetic. If the company says something it keeps the dialog open and it doesn't go away. If GW and FW stay silent about this it'll quiet down over time and anyone who brings it up will just get attacked by the apathetic masses.

Fair enough, tried and true. But wasn't there some impact from the Lockbox fiasco a while back?

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:
They're not saying anything because it's the smart thing for them not to. Take a look at the video game industry. Companies do anti-consumer things there all the time. When the company keeps quiet people get apathetic. If the company says something it keeps the dialog open and it doesn't go away. If GW and FW stay silent about this it'll quiet down over time and anyone who brings it up will just get attacked by the apathetic masses.

Fair enough, tried and true. But wasn't there some impact from the Lockbox fiasco a while back?

People almost instantly lose interest in lootboxes because they're so used to them now. When it kicks off again it's always in regard to a specific game and if you say something about an older game you get attacked by the apathetic masses. People lose interest even when a thing is still ongoing.

 IronBrand wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:
They're not saying anything because it's the smart thing for them not to. Take a look at the video game industry. Companies do anti-consumer things there all the time. When the company keeps quiet people get apathetic. If the company says something it keeps the dialog open and it doesn't go away. If GW and FW stay silent about this it'll quiet down over time and anyone who brings it up will just get attacked by the apathetic masses.

Fair enough, tried and true. But wasn't there some impact from the Lockbox fiasco a while back?

People almost instantly lose interest in lootboxes because they're so used to them now. When it kicks off again it's always in regard to a specific game and if you say something about an older game you get attacked by the apathetic masses. People lose interest even when a thing is still ongoing.

Unfortunately true. People just don't care anymore. They don't mind content being withheld and dropped as DLC on release, or micro transactions, or constantly shifting metas forcing them to buy new minis/characters/equipment etc. So long as they get their fix and are part of the herd.

This is price hike has made me wonder what the point of FW even is anymore.

FW once offered support to the sort of customers who wanted a more "serious" (read: pseudo-historicals) wargaming approach to 40k and who had grown up since 1992ish and gotten the sort of well-paying jobs that afforded them considerable disposable income. This culminated with the success of the Badab War redux, which seems to have lead to the ultimate "historicals" product line, the Horus Heresy. But then HH became a board game with plastic figures sold in Warhammer Stores, as opposed to a resin boutique mail order-only product line.

FW stuff had "gone plastic" before (most notably the Valkyrie and the current Leman Russ kit, with all the variant guns) but Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Propsero blazed a new trail: boxed games with plastic miniatures that would funnel customers from Warhammer Stores (i.e., any customer, as opposed to the highly qualified FW customer) to the FW platform. At the same time, GW was reinventing Specialist Games to do the same thing with resurrected product lines: Strategy Battles Game, Blood Bowl, Necromunda, and Adeptus Titanicus. All these games have some lovely, approachable, affordable (Adeptus Titanicus aside) products on the front end but they all lead deeper down the rabbit hole to FW.

I have to wonder whether FW is really capable of supporting these games qua successful product lines or if attaching them to FW, purveyors of ultra expensive resin, will ultimately drag down games that could have done better if the support was more accessible.

 Manchu wrote:
This is price hike has made me wonder what the point of FW even is anymore.

FW once offered support to the sort of customers who wanted a more "serious" (read: pseudo-historicals) wargaming approach to 40k and who had grown up since 1992ish and gotten the sort of well-paying jobs that afforded them considerable disposable income. This culminated with the success of the Badab War redux, which seems to have lead to the ultimate "historicals" product line, the Horus Heresy. But then HH became a board game with plastic figures sold in Warhammer Stores, as opposed to a resin boutique mail order-only product line.

FW stuff had "gone plastic" before (most notably the Valkyrie and the current Leman Russ kit, with all the variant guns) but Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Propsero blazed a new trail: boxed games with plastic miniatures that would funnel customers from Warhammer Stores (i.e., any customer, as opposed to the highly qualified FW customer) to the FW platform. At the same time, GW was reinventing Specialist Games to do the same thing with resurrected product lines: Strategy Battles Game, Blood Bowl, Necromunda, and Adeptus Titanicus. All these games have some lovely, approachable, affordable (Adeptus Titanicus aside) products on the front end but they all lead deeper down the rabbit hole to FW.

I have to wonder whether FW is really capable of supporting these games qua successful product lines or if attaching them to FW, purveyors of ultra expensive resin, will ultimately drag down games that could have done better if the support was more accessible.

I am guessing... Probably not. FW has become less and less relevant and this price hike kind of cements that to me. There is no reason to buy FW unless your running super cheesy competitive lists, unless your opponent just says "No I won't face your ELITE UBER forgeworld model."

They also lack the quality that we see from GW's model kits currently, while forgeworld has some very incredible sets Resin a jerk to work with and easily damaged.

To the extent that it could be true that FW is only for super cheesy stuff, it would only be true for 40k. For the Specialist Games line up, FW purchases are much more fundmental.

Zarakynel [Expletive Deleted] sucks on the tabletop, FWIW.

So try again.

 IronBrand wrote:
People almost instantly lose interest in lootboxes because they're so used to them now. When it kicks off again it's always in regard to a specific game and if you say something about an older game you get attacked by the apathetic masses. People lose interest even when a thing is still ongoing.

Well, when the fanboys hurl an entire paycheck into a game, and get what they want- they tend to be defensive about it.

 Asherian Command wrote:
They also lack the quality that we see from GW's model kits currently, while forgeworld has some very incredible sets Resin a jerk to work with and easily damaged.

Forge World quality still isn't anything to write home about. A good chunk of the stuff I've bought has needed to be replaced- I'm talking about entire chunks of the mold missing, holes, broken parts, missing parts, and miscasts so bad that a Dremmel tool couldn't fix it.

You know the old 'blanket ban' on Forge World? A good chunk of that was because FLGS owners got tired of the bickering that started with accusations of 'bootleg' or 'fake' Forge World models- because when it was relatively new to the US, most people couldn't believe that 'Actual Forge World' quality was so garbage.

I imagine FW will eventually stop many of their lines, reserving resin production for named characters, Titans, and perhaps upgrade sprues. All things that have limited selling value compared to more generic boxes of troops.

Everything else will be put into plastic. It would explain why they have been discontinuing several models(and lines) without offering much else instead.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I imagine FW will eventually stop many of their lines, reserving resin production for named characters, Titans, and perhaps upgrade sprues. All things that have limited selling value compared to more generic boxes of troops.

Everything else will be put into plastic. It would explain why they have been discontinuing several models(and lines) without offering much else instead.

That and also they seem to always be pretty crap honestly. We will see what they will do in the future but this price spike does not bode well for the companies future.

So, so, so many experts on GW's business model here. It's gratifying to see so many experts chime in, otherwise people might think we were just passing off our naked opinions as a forecast.

However will FW deal with the boycott that I'll wager 95% of people who sign up to will ignore anyway?

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So, so, so many experts on GW's business model here. It's gratifying to see so many experts chime in, otherwise people might think we were just passing off our naked opinions as a forecast.

However will FW deal with the boycott that I'll wager 95% of people who sign up to will ignore anyway?

Experts like the guy that's bought 2 things from them in 22 years?

Expertise that claims that a pricing complaint is 'entitlement'?

Yeah, thought so.

Yes, all those times I've held myself out as an expert and have made forecasts and predictions as to how this will shake out.

Go ahead and quote them. All zero of them.

You're really bad at this. Raise your game.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Yes, all those times I've held myself out as an expert and have made forecasts and predictions as to how this will shake out.

Actually, it seems you're the exact opposite.

Your position so far seems to be "I could afford the one toy I wanted, and anyone who takes issue with the price change is an entitled manchild. Being a dissatisfied customer is akin to being a whiny baby, no matter how reasonable the point of contention is"

So, if anyone needs to 'up their game', I'd say it's you. Because with that kind of attitude, no amount of snark or buzz-wording is going to win you approval. Believe it or not, Dakka isn't completely composed of people who'll side with these companies no matter what.

We, as customers, have a legitimate complaint. You, as a customer, do not. So, you don't have to side with anyone, but when you fight for a company this way you come off as a sad little fanboy, and it really tends to give people a poor perspective of GW/FW customers.

Make of that what you will, good day- and good luck finding quality people to play with, you'll need that with your attitude towards other customers.

I know, the complete opposite despite your best I know You Are You Said You Are But What Am I? nonsense.

Again, I'm not pro-FW, in case there are any twelve year olds out there who think 'fanboy' is a pejorative. I'm anti-people who think Ferrari owes them a car.

It's not a very subtle difference, but I understand that your position rests on not getting it and you aren't very good at this, so I'll let it ride this time.

I'm just curious where the entitlement claims come from. I understand if you disagree with other people, but at least label it correctly.

No one has once mentioned that they feel Forgeworld "must" price their products lower, or that anyone "deserves" the items at a lower price. We're all exceptionally aware that Forgeworld and Games Workshop are business entities. They can price stuff however they wish - that's their right. Just as its our right to provide vocal feedback that their pricing methods are laughable and will prevent plenty of us from giving them business in the future.

Don't people, as consumers have the right to say that? If anything, it's just blunt honest feedback. I've provided this feedback plenty o' times and occasionally directly to the source (not just GW, other businesses). How is that entitlement in any way?

I haven't purchased Forgeworld in years, and likely will continue to not do so. I can afford, but I choose not to. It's not about affording things, it's about what you're willing to pay. Forgeworld already charged a hefty premium for a non-premium product. Increasing that cost (as it has on a large percentage of their available offerings) isn't going to gain sales from folks like me.

It's not difficult to understand.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Again, I'm not pro-FW, in case there are any twelve year olds out there who think 'fanboy' is a pejorative. I'm anti-people who think Ferrari owes them a car.

At what point has anyone insisted that Forge World 'owes' them anything? At this point, the logical conclusion is:

A- You've found yourself in an argument where the only position you have is misrepresenting the opposition, which is so transparent- it could pass as invisible. You know full well 'Someone owing you a Ferrari' and 'displeasure with a price point change' are two completely different arguments.

B- You are completely incapable of understanding the concept of other customers being dissatisfied with a price hike on products. This isn't a difficult concept at all, and I'm not sure why you're struggling with it.


So you're either explicitly a troll, or the other answer is... well, pick any word you like for 'person who can't comprehend something simple'.

I've never understood why people defending their own freedom of expression think it trumps any rights anyone else has.

Why are you free to express yourself but I have to be quiet? Aside from it being an obvious tactic to try and stifle dissent, of course.

Of course you are free to share your opinion. So am I, even if that opinion is an opinion about your opinion. GASP!

Take a look around, at the world in which we live. Have a butcher's at the problems that people face the world over. Then try again to tell me that whinging about the price of some resin that is completely superfluous is not entitled. It is insanely entitled.

Done? Cool. Now go back through this thread and maybe look at a few others on exactly the same topic. How many people say things like it's not fair? One of the thread titles has the word 'improper' in it, for the love of the FSM. Anyway. Go through those threads and count how many people, implicitly or explicitly, argue that FW owes them.

Off you pop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Again, I'm not pro-FW, in case there are any twelve year olds out there who think 'fanboy' is a pejorative. I'm anti-people who think Ferrari owes them a car.

At what point has anyone insisted that Forge World 'owes' them anything? At this point, the logical conclusion is:

A- You've found yourself in an argument where the only position you have is misrepresenting the opposition, which is so transparent- it could pass as invisible. You know full well 'Someone owing you a Ferrari' and 'displeasure with a price point change' are two completely different arguments.

B- You are completely incapable of understanding the concept of other customers being dissatisfied with a price hike on products. This isn't a difficult concept at all, and I'm not sure why you're struggling with it.


So you're either explicitly a troll, or the other answer is... well, pick any word you like for 'person who can't comprehend something simple'.

See above.

You're right, of course. You have responded from the get-go with nothing but insults and baseless assumptions that serve to insult. But yeah, I'm the problem here.

Still though, at least women let you touch them, eh? That was an important fact to establish.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Done? Cool. Now go back through this thread and maybe look at a few others on exactly the same topic. How many people say things like it's not fair? One of the thread titles has the word 'improper' in it, for the love of the FSM. Anyway. Go through those threads and count how many people, implicitly or explicitly, argue that FW owes them.

Off you pop.

No, I believe if you're going to be bothered enough by it- then you should feel free to produce such evidence.

And, once you do, realize that it's not everyone. Maybe call out those individuals.

Your right to express yourself hasn't been trumped. Or taken. But your opinion isn't going to be protected, either- so either learn to deal with that, or... well, as you said...

"Off you pop"

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Again, I'm not pro-FW, in case there are any twelve year olds out there who think 'fanboy' is a pejorative. I'm anti-people who think Ferrari owes them a car.

At what point has anyone insisted that Forge World 'owes' them anything? At this point, the logical conclusion is:

A- You've found yourself in an argument where the only position you have is misrepresenting the opposition, which is so transparent- it could pass as invisible. You know full well 'Someone owing you a Ferrari' and 'displeasure with a price point change' are two completely different arguments.

B- You are completely incapable of understanding the concept of other customers being dissatisfied with a price hike on products. This isn't a difficult concept at all, and I'm not sure why you're struggling with it.


So you're either explicitly a troll, or the other answer is... well, pick any word you like for 'person who can't comprehend something simple'.

Put him on ignore he is not here to have a honest discussion.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Still though, at least women let you touch them, eh? That was an important fact to establish.

They tend to do that if you're not obnoxious and act like an adult, just saying. Always ask first, just to be sure.

Also, I like how you keep coming back to this when you don't have an argument.

Umbrage isn't an argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Put him on ignore he is not here to have a honest discussion.

A fine thought, that. Especially since he can't even skirt around being insulting. I'll let the mods deal with him.

I highly doubt I'm the only one that'll have done that.

REMOVED

Rule Number One is Be Polite. Please ratchet down the intensity here folks. Thanks!

I'm anti-people who think Ferrari owes them a car.

Bad strawman is bad. Nobody is saying FW owes them anything. They are, however, complaining that this prices them out of a hobby they've most likely spent a lot of money on, and hypothesizing whether it will hit FW's bottom-line or not.

 Eldarsif wrote:

I'm anti-people who think Ferrari owes them a car.

Bad strawman is bad. Nobody is saying FW owes them anything. They are, however, complaining that this prices them out of a hobby they've most likely spent a lot of money on, and hypothesizing whether it will hit FW's bottom-line or not.

It will hit about as much as it hit GW when they did that same thing.

And lol at "FW broken cheese" when it's GW codexes you find the truly broken cheese you want to spam. There's reason it's GW codex stuff that dominates tournaments...

Complaining about price increases on a luxury item is not entitled and more than complaining about the price increases on food. Sure one is necessary for survival, and the other isn't, but they are both consumer goods. Should I allow myself to be price gouged on something I want to buy simply because other people are less fortunate than me? Ridiculous. I am not the 1%, I am not someone who can just throw their money away without a care.

Sure, companies exist to make money, and they are perfectly within their rights to raise their prices and offer me no explanation whatsoever. But as a consumer and loyal customer, I also have every right to be outraged at such treatment and to withhold my money from future purchases.

One of three things will happen as a result of this price increase and a large amount of disgruntled customers no longer buying FW goods.

A. The market will bear it. Enough people will still be buying FW products to see business continue. Whether the increase to revenue from higher prices is enough to offset the decrease in revenue from loss of foreign customers will determine whether this was a "good" or "bad" business decision.

B. FW will be forced to lower its prices to stay in business.

C. FW will go out of business, and good riddance.

I cannot realistically expect to demand price decreases or to get anyone to follow me but I can definitely control my own response to this and I am voting with my wallet. I am not buying another FW product until B or C happens. I refuse to reward anti-consumer behavior.

w1zard wrote:
Complaining about price increases on a luxury item is not entitled and more than complaining about the price increases on food. Sure one is necessary for survival, and the other isn't, but they are both consumer goods. Should I allow myself to be price gouged on something I want to buy simply because other people are less fortunate than me? Ridiculous. I am not the 1%, I am not someone who can just throw their money away without a care.

Sure, companies exist to make money, and they are perfectly within their rights to raise their prices and offer me no explanation whatsoever. But as a consumer and loyal customer, I also have every right to be outraged at such treatment and to withhold my money from future purchases.

One of three things will happen as a result of this price increase and a large amount of disgruntled customers no longer buying FW goods.

A. The market will bear it. Enough people will still be buying FW products to see business continue. Whether the increase to revenue from higher prices is enough to offset the decrease in revenue from loss of foreign customers will determine whether this was a "good" or "bad" business decision.

B. FW will be forced to lower its prices to stay in business.

C. FW will go out of business, and good riddance.

I cannot realistically expect to demand price decreases or to get anyone to follow me but I can definitely control my own response to this and I am voting with my wallet. I am not buying another FW product until B or C happens. I refuse to reward anti-consumer behavior.

It'll be A. 100% sure of that.

They may well take some lessons from the reaction to inform future decisions, but I'm certain they will still be selling enough to do fine and that they will not reduce prices.

tneva82 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

I'm anti-people who think Ferrari owes them a car.

Bad strawman is bad. Nobody is saying FW owes them anything. They are, however, complaining that this prices them out of a hobby they've most likely spent a lot of money on, and hypothesizing whether it will hit FW's bottom-line or not.

It will hit about as much as it hit GW when they did that same thing.

And lol at "FW broken cheese" when it's GW codexes you find the truly broken cheese you want to spam. There's reason it's GW codex stuff that dominates tournaments...

Yet despite it coming up hundreds of times in hundreds of threads it will still come up millions of times in millions of threads.

Don't get too worked up by some guy who got banned from B+C.

Eh, closest I've ever come to FW models is owning the old Armorcast Baneblade & Shadowsword (and I think Armorcast was prior to FW). FW has always been above my comfort range for cost, they've just pushed it further into the "not gonna bother" range.

Doesn't mean I don't have more sane prices for similar models available to me. I might not be able to buy the Ferrari, but I can get something that looks like it that is in my prices range - nor does it stop me from dreaming of one day winning the lottery or getting a deal on one.

I think FW would do themselves a MASSIVE favour by at least trying to justify why they are raising prices.

The lack of any (sensible) communication in the face of a massive community outcry is a real PR humdinger.

Even if they just go 'brexit uncertainty, supply chain costs likely to increase, sorry guys' - it's something.

The crass response from the fb page hasn't helped. It seems, as twenty years ago, they are still hiring Orks over Inquisitors...

zerosignal wrote:
I think FW would do themselves a MASSIVE favour by at least trying to justify why they are raising prices.

The lack of any (sensible) communication in the face of a massive community outcry is a real PR humdinger.

Even if they just go 'brexit uncertainty, supply chain costs likely to increase, sorry guys' - it's something.

The crass response from the fb page hasn't helped. It seems, as twenty years ago, they are still hiring Orks over Inquisitors...

Frankly, if they would say that, publicly, i belive they would get alot less hate then they get now.
FW's communication is terrible, GW's now a bit better but still iffy sometimes. Most of their problems could be solved by better communication, heck even for the discontinued lines, if they'd say we put some of them into plastic (for exemple R&H ) to finally get you the options for cultists/ we will upgrade them into either mainline codexes (ala the old lost and the damned) or additional content for existing codexes or make them subfactions with a plastic relaease, nobody would be sad.

Instead we get nothing , only a pricespike covered by supposedly "better/ faster" shipping to get a positive spin on the whole debacle.

The fact that a Corsairs Heavy upgrade kit is 33$ for a 4 man upgrade kit for a 5 man unit that is for an army unit they no longer care about is beyond stupid.

A box of Kabals are 30$ and it comes with 10 guys (not 4) and Heavy/Assault weapons too.....
Edit: SPellLeng, English hurded

Not Online!!! wrote:

zerosignal wrote:
I think FW would do themselves a MASSIVE favour by at least trying to justify why they are raising prices.

The lack of any (sensible) communication in the face of a massive community outcry is a real PR humdinger.

Even if they just go 'brexit uncertainty, supply chain costs likely to increase, sorry guys' - it's something.

The crass response from the fb page hasn't helped. It seems, as twenty years ago, they are still hiring Orks over Inquisitors...

Frankly, if they would say that, publicly, i belive they would get alot less hate then they get now.
FW's communication is terrible, GW's now a bit better but still iffy sometimes. Most of their problems could be solved by better communication, heck even for the discontinued lines, if they'd say we put some of them into plastic (for exemple R&H ) to finally get you the options for cultists/ we will upgrade them into either mainline codexes (ala the old lost and the damned) or additional content for existing codexes or make them subfactions with a plastic relaease, nobody would be sad.

Instead we get nothing , only a pricespike covered by supposedly "better/ faster" shipping to get a positive spin on the whole debacle.

Except it's been proven time and time again that it's better for them as a company to keep quiet about it. There'll be complaints and discussion when it happens but if they say nothing that dies down. If they say something it gets picked up and the story continues. They say nothing people get bored, the majority stop caring and then when someone says anything they're drowned out by apathy.

If they remove a line of models then outright say they're not coming back it becomes a story. If they drop models then just give some generic response interest dies down and people stop caring. While it is nice as a customer to be somewhat kept in the loop it makes no sense as a company for them to do so.

Due to the ridiculous decision to gouge the Australian market I will not be using my FW models, will not allow them in my games and will not be purchasing any more.

I vote with my wallet... and I'll be picking up other games and models instead of GW or FW in the future.

 Azmodaeus wrote:
Due to the ridiculous decision to gouge the Australian market I will not be using my FW models, will not allow them in my games and will not be purchasing any more.

I vote with my wallet... and I'll be picking up other games and models instead of GW or FW in the future.

Nice attitude to carry, your opponent that has such an army is surely going to be angry, but not at FW like he should be, (and mostlikely will be) but rather at you.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IronBrand wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

zerosignal wrote:
I think FW would do themselves a MASSIVE favour by at least trying to justify why they are raising prices.

The lack of any (sensible) communication in the face of a massive community outcry is a real PR humdinger.

Even if they just go 'brexit uncertainty, supply chain costs likely to increase, sorry guys' - it's something.

The crass response from the fb page hasn't helped. It seems, as twenty years ago, they are still hiring Orks over Inquisitors...

Frankly, if they would say that, publicly, i belive they would get alot less hate then they get now.
FW's communication is terrible, GW's now a bit better but still iffy sometimes. Most of their problems could be solved by better communication, heck even for the discontinued lines, if they'd say we put some of them into plastic (for exemple R&H ) to finally get you the options for cultists/ we will upgrade them into either mainline codexes (ala the old lost and the damned) or additional content for existing codexes or make them subfactions with a plastic relaease, nobody would be sad.

Instead we get nothing , only a pricespike covered by supposedly "better/ faster" shipping to get a positive spin on the whole debacle.

Except it's been proven time and time again that it's better for them as a company to keep quiet about it. There'll be complaints and discussion when it happens but if they say nothing that dies down. If they say something it gets picked up and the story continues. They say nothing people get bored, the majority stop caring and then when someone says anything they're drowned out by apathy.

If they remove a line of models then outright say they're not coming back it becomes a story. If they drop models then just give some generic response interest dies down and people stop caring. While it is nice as a customer to be somewhat kept in the loop it makes no sense as a company for them to do so.

Ah yeah, the EA buisness model, even bad PR is PR, and whilest that might be true, it can massivly backfire, from boycotts from down under to generally more peple searching for alternatives and using those alternatives (be it GW kitbashes or recasters).
Btw don't you think a small sneak peak at such new and improved plastic lines or codexes which they no doubt could be doing would be better?

Not Online!!! wrote:
Ah yeah, the EA buisness model, even bad PR is PR, and whilest that might be true, it can massivly backfire, from boycotts from down under to generally more peple searching for alternatives and using those alternatives (be it GW kitbashes or recasters).
Btw don't you think a small sneak peak at such new and improved plastic lines or codexes which they no doubt could be doing would be better?

There won't be significant boycotting in Australia. We were hit much worse back when GW introduced the rule that retailers couldn't sell outside of their region. 40k is still going strong here that the increase to FW will ultimately have very little impact. Most people don't buy FW as it is so it'll only be a fraction of a fraction of the player base who boycott over this.

With regards to more information sure it'd be nice to have more heads up but they're not going to do it. We used to get more information and they stopped that. If I recall correctly they even threatened legal action over leaks at the time. Releasing info on products a while before launch is bad for business. It only benefits the players who save up for each purchase as it allows them to get it on release day. At the same time it kills impulse buys and can reduce sales of other kits. For example someone was saving up to buy a knight but then they find out a new primarch is coming in two months so they instead decide to not buy the knight. In the case where they didn't have that information the player buys the knight then gets excited in two months that a new primarch is here so they decide to start saving for that to use with their knight.

Giving players time to talk themselves out of buying something is bad for a business like GW. It's the same reason companies like nvidia don't announce a new graphics card, get it out for review, then launch it. They announce and launch it almost simultaneously. Same as how video game publishers have embargoes on games that don't lift until the day of or just before launch. Giving your customers time to forget a product or talk themselves out of buying it is bad for business.

I live in Australia, though this has dissuaded me from buying some superfluous stuff atm, tbh I don't really care (I don't play Horus Hersey or something dependent on Forge World). Prices have to be dependent on the market and the fluctuating money value of current countries (they have to pay employees etc on top, if compensating to much I don't mind). I will still buy everything Necromunda they produce and maybe get a few things for my other armies as I see fit (I don't really care). Every company increases in prices, some do it staggered yearly (For inflation etc) this company has done it in one hit (how long has it been since they have changed prices?). Either way, meh

Well now I know where Kirby ended up.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Nice attitude to carry, your opponent that has such an army is surely going to be angry, but not at FW like he should be, (and mostlikely will be) but rather at you.

I will let people know ahead of time and if that conditions is a deal breaker then we won't play, there is nothing rude about it.

Spectral Ceramite wrote:I live in Australia, though this has dissuaded me from buying some superfluous stuff atm, tbh I don't really care (I don't play Horus Hersey or something dependent on Forge World). Prices have to be dependent on the market and the fluctuating money value of current countries (they have to pay employees etc on top, if compensating to much I don't mind). I will still buy everything Necromunda they produce and maybe get a few things for my other armies as I see fit (I don't really care). Every company increases in prices, some do it staggered yearly (For inflation etc) this company has done it in one hit (how long has it been since they have changed prices?). Either way, meh

The fluctuating currencies should cause the cost for Australians to decrease, instead we don't just get shafted on future currency fluctuations in our favour but get slapped with a 30% price hike due to some arbitrarily picked conversion rate some Brit pulled out of his eye of terror.

If you think this is a reasonable change then you're a mook and deserve to be parted from your money.

The thing that I find most annoying is that I have to pay VAT if I get things mailed to me but if I went there in person I could get a refund. However, that is a problem with British law and FW has to follow the law.

The thing i find funny is 1. ForgeWorld prices haven't changed until now in the last 4 years. 2. People complain about an extravagance. I suppose it's better than changing a Prime Minster every few terms because we can.... (they all the same but I find it funny we go threw them like water).

To change one every few terms they'd have to last at least one term though.

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
The thing i find funny is 1. ForgeWorld prices haven't changed until now in the last 4 years. 2. People complain about an extravagance. I suppose it's better than changing a Prime Minster every few terms because we can.... (they all the same but I find it funny we go threw them like water).

They had a small price hike not even a year ago.... The usual inflation related one.

I was considering ordering some more transfers from them when I noticed that they HH transfer sheets are now $25 USD. I only paid ~$24 with shipping for the last one. Smegging hell, I knew this was going to be annoying but that just irks me in ways I didn't expect.

zerosignal wrote:
I think FW would do themselves a MASSIVE favour by at least trying to justify why they are raising prices.

Pretty simple explanation. ForgeWorld and GW aren't really separate companies. They absolutely do not have separate IT departments. Their stores are just barely separated and clearly use the same tech. The GW store has always had region specific pricing, while the FW store has only accepted UK orders. They ported over/enabled the region specific pricing to FW and because of that, you now get to pay the same inflated prices for FW stuff that you've always paid for the rest of GWs line. They really didn't raise prices, they just started accepting alternate currencies at the same abysmal rate they accept alternate currencies everywhere else on their store.

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
The thing i find funny is 1. ForgeWorld prices haven't changed until now in the last 4 years.

Sit down, F. They've already increased it at least once if not twice. Warhound weapons went from 33 to 43 pounds. Knights from 175 to 185, Thunderbolt from 88 (or something near that) to 97, etc. I bet they will surely increase this year too, by some 5% (10% to Australians, because FW hates them, obviously)

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
1. ForgeWorld prices haven't changed until now in the last 4 years.

They have increased the price of things every single year around about this time of the year for as long as I can remember, but they don't increase everything at once so you generally only notice if you had your eye on something.

I don't know... i've done a little research and the numbers don't really match up. Even the brexit thing, most companies sorted that out 2 years ago... if they're just addressing it now it would show incompetence so I doubt it's that. But the fact it's cheaper and faster for a ausy to get on a plain, have a weekend in forgeworld, buy everything they want and get home is just stupid to me... If you really wanted to continue to buy FW then buy it for British price and get a mate to send it to you through the post.

 lolman1c wrote:
Even the brexit thing, most companies sorted that out 2 years ago...

We still don't have a bloody clue what is happening with Brexit. Every week it seems something new shifts. So to say everyone sorted themselves out 2 years ago is not at all accurate. Companies are constantly having to adapt to the changing economic environment here still.

I am pretty sure that a large scale boycott will occur and they will just simply abandon their U.S market completely. Then, with more massive price spikes, FW will go out of business like they should and GW will start offering plastic kids of at least half of what FW did at less than 1/4 of the price just to spite them.

 Vasarto wrote:
I am pretty sure that a large scale boycott will occur and they will just simply abandon their U.S market completely. Then, with more massive price spikes, FW will go out of business like they should and GW will start offering plastic kids of at least half of what FW did at less than 1/4 of the price just to spite them.

GW and FW pricing and marketing is all controlled by the same people. Very few people ever boycott anything and most of the ones who do "boycott" something were never going to buy the thing in the first place. You're massively delusional if you think if FW was shut down that any significant number of kits would be converted to plastic. The few that did get moved over would be things like dreadnoughts and only if they're amazingly popular and then they'd continue to charge the exact same amount for the plastic kit. Every other FW model and rule would just be squatted if they closed FW.

 IronBrand wrote:

 Vasarto wrote:
I am pretty sure that a large scale boycott will occur and they will just simply abandon their U.S market completely. Then, with more massive price spikes, FW will go out of business like they should and GW will start offering plastic kids of at least half of what FW did at less than 1/4 of the price just to spite them.

GW and FW pricing and marketing is all controlled by the same people. Very few people ever boycott anything and most of the ones who do "boycott" something were never going to buy the thing in the first place. You're massively delusional if you think if FW was shut down that any significant number of kits would be converted to plastic. The few that did get moved over would be things like dreadnoughts and only if they're amazingly popular and then they'd continue to charge the exact same amount for the plastic kit. Every other FW model and rule would just be squatted if they closed FW.

Not entirely true. There is a director of Forgeworld who has quite a lot of autonomy. Supposedly he has been rubbing the other higher ups the wrong way of late.

You're right that if FW went under that would be the end of basically all those lines though. But I don't think it will come to that. The whales will still buy FW, and they bankroll it at the end of the day.

Stux wrote:
Not entirely true. There is a director of Forgeworld who has quite a lot of autonomy. Supposedly he has been rubbing the other higher ups the wrong way of late.

You're right that if FW went under that would be the end of basically all those lines though. But I don't think it will come to that. The whales will still buy FW, and they bankroll it at the end of the day.

Yeah, it would take a lot for FW to go out of business. The molds are much cheaper so outside of the cost of paying the sculptor and labour for casting the model itself there aren't really any costs other than material. A relatively small dedicated group of customers will be more than enough to keep FW afloat. This won't hurt FW in any significant way and the people complaining are just a vocal minority. I don't like the price hike either but it just means I won't be getting the rhino doors I've been wanting because the prices almost doubled. Losing a sale of a couple rhino doors is nothing.

Hopefully the loss of sales is cumulative, though, and forces them to rethink this. I used to feel pretty comfortable buying from FW, as it wasn't a frequent thing. But now the sticker shock is enough that I probably won't ever, unless I ask a friend in the UK to make a big purchase for me and ship it over.

I'd considered getting a bunch of Cerastus-style knights for the smaller Adeptus Titanicus scale when FW (eventually, inevitably ) releases them. But at the prices we're seeing now, I'm definitely scrapping that!

 Azmodaeus wrote:


The fluctuating currencies should cause the cost for Australians to decrease, instead we don't just get shafted on future currency fluctuations in our favour but get slapped with a 30% price hike due to some arbitrarily picked conversion rate some Brit pulled out of his eye of terror.

If you think this is a reasonable change then you're a mook and deserve to be parted from your money.

But that's not how companies which sell in multiple different currency markets work.

Generally any large company will always adopt a regional pricing policy where they set different RRPs for their products in different territories. And those are based on a whole lot more than the current exchange rate between the currencies. They're based on the state of the local market, competition, average wages and disposable income of their customers, operating costs for warehousing and distribution in that market (if they need it), import fees and whatever else I'm not thinking of. Exchange rates go up and down, but that doesn't really change the value of your currency to you and its purchasing power within your own country unless the exchange rate persists for a long time and inflation balances things out. You guys already have it worse than others due to the 'Australia Tax' and I can guarantee that sort of stuff will be taken into consideration. After all, if you're already used to paying over-inflated prices for everything else you buy, any company setting prices for its products in AUD is going to assume that you're already used to over-paying for stuff and set its own prices high to match. Sure, when the GBP is weak, GW could have lowered its prices in Australia so that each sale still gave them the same amount of GBP, but why would they? The purchasing power of their Australian customers in AUD hadn't changed at all, so they keep charging them the same price they've been paying for years, and make more profit on it once the money is exchanged back to GBP. Altering your prices up and down based on what the exchange rate is doing is not a good idea - because at times when prices are high you're going to have customers hold off from buying in the hope that prices will come down again soon.

Making sure that their profit margins will be acceptable is where the exchange rate comes in, based on a long-term weighted average of exchange rates. It's never going to be based on what the exchange rate is right now. It's an equation of what price they can set this at which works in the local market and is positioned against the historical average exchange rate, which means that if the exchange rate varies according to historical precedent they probably won't need to change prices. That's how GW came up with their regional pricing models however many years ago they brought them in. They weren't arbitrarily picked by 'some Brit'. GW is a FTSE250 business. You can bet that those pricing structures were set very carefully by a team of professional accountants and sales experts. (Aside - some really big companies I believe hold accounts of all sorts of different currencies to help them smooth fluctuations, but I don't believe GW does this).

GW/Citadel has been operating its international prices that way for many years, but for whatever reason they hadn't applied them to FW. The thing to remember here is that Forgeworld did not sell in your market before. Forgeworld sold to the British market, but because they didn't have regional pricing they allowed you to buy from the British market and pay British prices. We're GW's home territory over here, so it's always going to be cheaper - and recently because the exchange rate was so much in your favour you could almost argue that overseas customers were getting a relatively better deal on FW than the Brits. Any major company like GW was never going to let that situation persist for too long and an introduction to regional pricing was always going to increase your prices. It was probably especially easy for them to do, since they only had to integrate FW further into their existing systems.

I think it's important not to look at this in isolation, but to consider that GW are applying the same pricing policy as they do for Citadel to Forgeworld. People are getting angry at Forgeworld for doing what the rest of GW has been doing for decades.



Finally I feel like I should say that I'm not arguing in favour of this move and saying that you guys *should* have to pay more. That's not my intention at all. It sucks that stuff costs you so much more than it would have done a few weeks ago. It's just that through most of this discussion it's all been anger at the increased overseas prices, talk of boycotts and people assuming that the move has been made for no reason, when really it's standard corporate behaviour. Sure, be angry that they're expecting you to pay more without really telling you why. You have a right to that - but please also consider that they're changing from a business model that was beneficial to you to one that the majority of major companies use and which they already used across most of their lines.

---

Or in far fewer words, this exactly:

 LunarSol wrote:
Pretty simple explanation. ForgeWorld and GW aren't really separate companies. They absolutely do not have separate IT departments. Their stores are just barely separated and clearly use the same tech. The GW store has always had region specific pricing, while the FW store has only accepted UK orders. They ported over/enabled the region specific pricing to FW and because of that, you now get to pay the same inflated prices for FW stuff that you've always paid for the rest of GWs line. They really didn't raise prices, they just started accepting alternate currencies at the same abysmal rate they accept alternate currencies everywhere else on their store.

 RiTides wrote:
Hopefully the loss of sales is cumulative, though, and forces them to rethink this. I used to feel pretty comfortable buying from FW, as it wasn't a frequent thing. But now the sticker shock is enough that I probably won't ever, unless I ask a friend in the UK to make a big purchase for me and ship it over.

I'd considered getting a bunch of Cerastus-style knights for the smaller Adeptus Titanicus scale when FW (eventually, inevitably ) releases them. But at the prices we're seeing now, I'm definitely scrapping that!

Look, the prices aren't going back down. It undermines the boutique nature of FW if prices are ever reduced. They need to maintain the illusion that the cheap resin is actually worth a premium and part of that means being inflexible on pricing.

In their eyes it would open a floodgate.

 Vasarto wrote:
I am pretty sure that a large scale boycott will occur and they will just simply abandon their U.S market completely. Then, with more massive price spikes, FW will go out of business like they should and GW will start offering plastic kids of at least half of what FW did at less than 1/4 of the price just to spite them.

So according to your logic gw went down when they introduced same policy(and are likely who ordered this as well) years ago...umm...they stlll are?

And spite who? Fw? You realize right they are same company?

Lol some people are way out of reality

Again, I think it's totally fair that they can raise their prices without an explanation. It is equally fair for me to not buy any of their stuff until they lower their prices. If that means I never buy FW again so be it, they have permanently lost a customer. Enough said.

Bellerophon you do present a well reasoned argument however there is a massive and glaring issue; we have easy access to a global economy.

FW do not have Australian offices, warehouses or costs. This move is purely motivated by profit just as the previous GW region locking was.

I am sick of being gouged by trashy companies at no benefit to myself so I will take my money elsewhere... and yes I have spent fairly significant sums on this hobby.
Far more than most casual hobbyists would spend in a decade over the three years I have been collecting.

 Azmodaeus wrote:
Bellerophon you do present a well reasoned argument however there is a massive and glaring issue; we have easy access to a global economy.

FW do not have Australian offices, warehouses or costs. This move is purely motivated by profit just as the previous GW region locking was.

I am sick of being gouged by trashy companies at no benefit to myself so I will take my money elsewhere... and yes I have spent fairly significant sums on this hobby.
Far more than most casual hobbyists would spend in a decade over the three years I have been collecting.

I'm sure you're right on the motive - they probably decided that they were missing out on extra profits by not integrating FW into their normal pricing scheme. I guess my main point is that it's surprising it took them this long to do it. Whether it has a long term effect on sales remains to be seen, but the accountancy team must have calculated the likely outcome as greater overall profit otherwise they wouldn't have done it. So they probably expect the additional profit from their remaining sales will outweigh the lost sales from the folk who think the hikes are too much. The global economy is a good point, enough that they feel the need to stop you from buying from cheaper markets with region locking. I honestly don't know to what extent other industries do this - tech for example. That would be interesting to find out. I suspect most people buy in their local market even if they're not region locked, but then general tech consumers probably aren't as switched on to international prices as the GW-gaming crowd. I wonder how much of that comes down to GW's daft website design where if you find a page through google it likes to show you it in a random currency.

And I do sympathise on the feeling about being price gouged. For perhaps a similar example, I've spent a lot of money on my PC and I may have been in the market for a new graphics card - but the prices have been inflated in the last year or so to a level that I'm not willing to pay, because cryptominers are buying them all up and the sellers are hiking their prices accordingly. I refuse to pay what they're charging at the moment, so I'll hang on to my several-generations-old card until the new cards fall to a price which I think is reasonable, or until my old one gives up. (Or unless I decide that Brexit will drive prices up even further and figure I'd better buy now...)

I don't understand why FW even exists anymore. Many of their 40k and 30k models are done with CAD now anyways aren't they? And they would be popular enough to warrant plastic die costs if the prices were cheaper. Then the rules could all be written by the same team and be more in sync and sensible....like all GW rules are )

 Bellerophon wrote:

 Azmodaeus wrote:
Bellerophon you do present a well reasoned argument however there is a massive and glaring issue; we have easy access to a global economy.

FW do not have Australian offices, warehouses or costs. This move is purely motivated by profit just as the previous GW region locking was.

I am sick of being gouged by trashy companies at no benefit to myself so I will take my money elsewhere... and yes I have spent fairly significant sums on this hobby.
Far more than most casual hobbyists would spend in a decade over the three years I have been collecting.

I'm sure you're right on the motive - they probably decided that they were missing out on extra profits by not integrating FW into their normal pricing scheme. I guess my main point is that it's surprising it took them this long to do it. Whether it has a long term effect on sales remains to be seen, but the accountancy team must have calculated the likely outcome as greater overall profit otherwise they wouldn't have done it. So they probably expect the additional profit from their remaining sales will outweigh the lost sales from the folk who think the hikes are too much. The global economy is a good point, enough that they feel the need to stop you from buying from cheaper markets with region locking. I honestly don't know to what extent other industries do this - tech for example. That would be interesting to find out. I suspect most people buy in their local market even if they're not region locked, but then general tech consumers probably aren't as switched on to international prices as the GW-gaming crowd. I wonder how much of that comes down to GW's daft website design where if you find a page through google it likes to show you it in a random currency.

And I do sympathise on the feeling about being price gouged. For perhaps a similar example, I've spent a lot of money on my PC and I may have been in the market for a new graphics card - but the prices have been inflated in the last year or so to a level that I'm not willing to pay, because cryptominers are buying them all up and the sellers are hiking their prices accordingly. I refuse to pay what they're charging at the moment, so I'll hang on to my several-generations-old card until the new cards fall to a price which I think is reasonable, or until my old one gives up. (Or unless I decide that Brexit will drive prices up even further and figure I'd better buy now...)

Graphics cards had a lot to do with the whole mining thing, i wanted to upgrade my 700er nvidia to a 1080 ti, well, after reading the prices i kinda decided to buy 40k instead. ( recently though the 1080s should have dropped in price, might need to look into it.)

As for the price gouging, i can somewhat understand GW, as in they deliver to sellers to the local market, which need to make a profit (however even those get price gouged), what i do not understand explicitly about FW, is they produce and sell from the UK (USA now too) but ship the stuff around the globe with most of the shipping beeing taken care of price wise with their inpriced tax which they do not pay for selling the stuff outside of the UK. Additionally smaller orders burden the buyer with the shipping cost, ergo they have a win win situation. Since they however ship directly one should and could assume that they only need to get a profit in the scale of UK costs/ USA costs, meanwhile they'll happily price gouge non EU markets.

For me the era forgewolrd is over anyways since my army got squatted, still i'd like a malcador, but frankly since they are anyways rule wise terrible i stay with what i have and will look for alternatives.

I don't know..
I'd be angry but I rather have FW get it right like GW have been doing the last years. No idea if it's related but since Bligh died I feel like FW have made a string of strange decisions.

If it's Brexit related then maybe FW should move to Amsterdam like every other decent formerly-UK-based company

Tbh im a bit of a cheap skate to begin with, so I might just go recasting just to save a buck. Heck, I was probably gonna go recasting to begin with if the quality is good. I've never been one for customer loyalty when it comes to hobby stuff.

Those in this thread pointing the finger beyond FW at the accounting team are correct, well in the sense that this revision and the gak-eating insult of a 30-40% sudden price hike that came with it, is nothing to do with Forge World and everything to do with the beam counters at a much higher level of GW.

It has certainly put a very sizable dent in my purchasing plans. We've gone way beyond the idea of rising price to cover manufacture and instead demonstrated an overt greed. I was building two FW armies, I will be casting my eye about now for other purchasing choices.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Those in this thread pointing the finger beyond FW at the accounting team are correct, well in the sense that this revision and the gak-eating insult of a 30-40% sudden price hike that came with it, is nothing to do with Forge World and everything to do with the beam counters at a much higher level of GW.

It has certainly put a very sizable dent in my purchasing plans. We've gone way beyond the idea of rising price to cover manufacture and instead demonstrated an overt greed. I was building two FW armies, I will be casting my eye about now for other purchasing choices.

We dont know if GW tells them what to price actually. They never said how their inner operations for finances are.

I do have one question since google has not given me much insight to the how games workshop and forgeworld actually communicate with each other. Do we have any kind of official / semi official source that explains how two coordinate and plan things.

Why are so many people wanting Forgeworld to go out of business? Yes the price increase is stupid, yes we should boycott until they listen but wanting them to shut down just for the hell of it is just petty and narrowminded. If you don't want to buy from them then don't but some people like Forgeworld models and want to buy them.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I do have one question since google has not given me much insight to the how games workshop and forgeworld actually communicate with each other. Do we have any kind of official / semi official source that explains how two coordinate and plan things.

No, not that I've seen. I only have what I've heard from staff and it's a bit vague.

We know it is all one company, that Forgeworld is just a sub brand.

We know a lot of their work is done separately from core GW though, that they have separate production space (in the same complex mind), separate rules writers and so forth. The guys who work in the FW store in Nottingham are literally the same pool of people who work the regular store there too though.

The rumours are that the FW director has quite a lot of autonomy on how to run FW, but that a lot of people at GW are not too happy with him at the moment. But there's nothing substantial to base that on, it's just grapevine stuff.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Those in this thread pointing the finger beyond FW at the accounting team are correct, well in the sense that this revision and the gak-eating insult of a 30-40% sudden price hike that came with it, is nothing to do with Forge World and everything to do with the beam counters at a much higher level of GW.

It has certainly put a very sizable dent in my purchasing plans. We've gone way beyond the idea of rising price to cover manufacture and instead demonstrated an overt greed. I was building two FW armies, I will be casting my eye about now for other purchasing choices.

We dont know if GW tells them what to price actually. They never said how their inner operations for finances are.

It's been discussed over the years. FW maintains independence over it's creative team and it's miniature manufacturing. The pricing structure, storage, product codes and delivery system is dictated by the Board, through the Accountancy and Sales teams. FW was traditionally left alone to do it's thing as long as it pulled in a profit, but of late, it's own success brought it under the microscope and, horribly for us, it's pricing and so on was recently revised to bring it into lockstep with the markups seen in Citadel products.

It sucks, I'm pissed off and angry about it and it's put a very significant dent in my spending with them and I have two FW armies halfway done and two more on paper that now will likely not see the light of day, but it is not FW's fault, it's the grey suits they answer to.

But we dont know if they give reports to GW HQ's, or if they have monthly/weekly meetings, or etc...

They are easily independent for the most part, the question how, how much?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
But we dont know if they give reports to GW HQ's, or if they have monthly/weekly meetings, or etc...

They are easily independent for the most part, the question how, how much?

Creatively, highly independent, other than regular meetings to ensure they and Citadel aren't about to tread on each other's toes.

Fiscally? Not in the slightest. They answer to corporate in the same manner Citadel does.

I've heard on the grapevine that Forgeworld has received very few orders from Australia and NZ since the price hike, sounds like this business decision is paying off!

Depends how it compares to before the price hike. A lot of comments we've seen here have been "well I was thinking of one day buying some FW but now I won't" ergo a large number of people were potential customers not actual customers.

That said I'd expect there to be a significant drop. The real pressure will be where we are in a year or two when GW sees if its a blip that recovers itself or if it produces a lasting effect.

And how other sales happen. Australia was unlikely to be big market anyway. Increased UK sales could easily more than compensate. And even in europe this varies from slight increase to slight decrease(yes that's right. Depending on your purchase habit this could be price DECREASE for customer).

GW has information regarding this with GW sales proper. Likely they used that when they told FW to go for same system.

I expect you're right and in a couple of years this will all largely be forgotten by hobbyists.

I still don't see this as a good move for the hobby or for the company though.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Tbh im a bit of a cheap skate to begin with, so I might just go recasting just to save a buck. Heck, I was probably gonna go recasting to begin with if the quality is good. I've never been one for customer loyalty when it comes to hobby stuff.

But all for piracy? Not really customer loyalty - that is not buy from competitors. While I wouldn't criticism someone for recasting OOP stuff, recasting currently on sale items is directly stealing. This is a non essential item, not a loaf of bread.

I’ll be putting my money where my mouth is so to speak. Gonna sell off my huge eldar Force and quit 40k. Tired of price gouging from GW. I’ll just play computer games. Less time investment and a thousand times cheaper. And so much less logistics involved in getting a game going. So long GW. You greedy bastards killed it for me

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Tbh im a bit of a cheap skate to begin with, so I might just go recasting just to save a buck. Heck, I was probably gonna go recasting to begin with if the quality is good. I've never been one for customer loyalty when it comes to hobby stuff.

But all for piracy? Not really customer loyalty - that is not buy from competitors. While I wouldn't criticism someone for recasting OOP stuff, recasting currently on sale items is directly stealing. This is a non essential item, not a loaf of bread.

No it's not much the same way downloading a game off a piracy site isnt.

If someone's unwilling to pay the retail cost and goes to a recaster/pirate you haven't lost a sale the fact is you were never going to get that person's money even if the recaster/pirate wasn't there.

As I've said before it's not a legal issue it's a moral one, you may think it immoral to use a recaster but others dont.

hobojebus wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Tbh im a bit of a cheap skate to begin with, so I might just go recasting just to save a buck. Heck, I was probably gonna go recasting to begin with if the quality is good. I've never been one for customer loyalty when it comes to hobby stuff.

But all for piracy? Not really customer loyalty - that is not buy from competitors. While I wouldn't criticism someone for recasting OOP stuff, recasting currently on sale items is directly stealing. This is a non essential item, not a loaf of bread.

No it's not much the same way downloading a game off a piracy site isnt.

If someone's unwilling to pay the retail cost and goes to a recaster/pirate you haven't lost a sale the fact is you were never going to get that person's money even if the recaster/pirate wasn't there.

As I've said before it's not a legal issue it's a moral one, you may think it immoral to use a recaster but others dont.

It's not that simple.

You are right that it is not theft. At worst it is infringement. But it still may well be illegal.

That does generally require demonstration that the infringement has resulted in loss of earnings or value of the work. You claim that people who buy recasts weren't buying from Forgeworld anyway, and while certainly sometimes that would be true I think it would be impossible to claim with a straight face that recasters don't cause some money that would have gone to GW to instead go to recasters.

It is at best legally grey, so you can't claim there isn't a legal element to all this.

When I buy from Forge world or ebay (I make sure if buy from ebay is exact GW product). Honestly, it's not that big of a deal, I have seen reforges and mabye save 30% and I think I can save 30% or buy legit from Forge world and get:
1. 100% return if not a good casting
2. Support the hobby
3. Feel good that I didn't buy from some person that their life goal is to live off someone else

I always choose Forge world it's not that big of a deal that gunna cry a river.

EDIT: I honestly wouldn't care if the reforger offers a refund if crap casting...the fact that they make their living on someone else is enough for me to go FU.

Yeah but then you have to appreciate fw pricing can be fubar, tell me the necromunda squat is worth £18 and I'll laugh in your face.

If they can release three hired gun resin models for £20 there's no justification for the squat being nearly the same price, that's why someone I know went to a Russian sight and got every special character out to date for 35 euroes.

If prices were more reasonable there would be no market for recasters in the first place.

An item is only worth what the customer is willing to pay.

A customers only obligation is to find the best deal for themselves, nobody is owed a living.

hobojebus wrote:
Yeah but then you have to appreciate fw pricing can be fubar, tell me the necromunda squat is worth £18 and I'll laugh in your face.

If they can release three hired gun resin models for £20 there's no justification for the squat being nearly the same price, that's why someone I know went to a Russian sight and got every special character out to date for 35 euroes.

If prices were more reasonable there would be no market for recasters in the first place.

An item is only worth what the customer is willing to pay.

A customers only obligation is to find the best deal for themselves, nobody is owed a living.

I'm sorry but the idea that a consumer can vote with their wallet and the idea that someone can profit off the work of others by undercutting them with a product that infringes on their intellectual property are worlds apart.

Recasters can sell so cheap because they put nothing into design and development. GW prices may too high, but there is no moral justification for what recasters do. You aren't entitled to GW products by any means just because you don't like their prices.

 Stux wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Yeah but then you have to appreciate fw pricing can be fubar, tell me the necromunda squat is worth £18 and I'll laugh in your face.

If they can release three hired gun resin models for £20 there's no justification for the squat being nearly the same price, that's why someone I know went to a Russian sight and got every special character out to date for 35 euroes.

If prices were more reasonable there would be no market for recasters in the first place.

An item is only worth what the customer is willing to pay.

A customers only obligation is to find the best deal for themselves, nobody is owed a living.

I'm sorry but the idea that a consumer can vote with their wallet and the idea that someone can profit off the work of others by undercutting them with a product that infringes on their intellectual property are worlds apart.

Recasters can sell so cheap because they put nothing into design and development. GW prices may too high, but there is no moral justification for what recasters do. You aren't entitled to GW products by any means just because you don't like their prices.

Exactly

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Tbh im a bit of a cheap skate to begin with, so I might just go recasting just to save a buck. Heck, I was probably gonna go recasting to begin with if the quality is good. I've never been one for customer loyalty when it comes to hobby stuff.

But all for piracy? Not really customer loyalty - that is not buy from competitors. While I wouldn't criticism someone for recasting OOP stuff, recasting currently on sale items is directly stealing. This is a non essential item, not a loaf of bread.

It's just pure capitalism. If FW/GW want to stay in business then they need to competitively price their models so as to stay in business. And when they rise too high people will simply flock to recasters due to the obscenely low prices they offer. It's just the result of their actions, and results they should anticipate like any good businessman seeking to achieve long term profits. The issue here is that GW/FW for some idiot reason is once more suffering from the delusion that short term profits are stable when, if anything, they weaken the company in the long term game as customer loyalty wavers. You literally can't stop recasting from being a thing and thus must take it into consideration with any price hike.

 Wyzilla wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Tbh im a bit of a cheap skate to begin with, so I might just go recasting just to save a buck. Heck, I was probably gonna go recasting to begin with if the quality is good. I've never been one for customer loyalty when it comes to hobby stuff.

But all for piracy? Not really customer loyalty - that is not buy from competitors. While I wouldn't criticism someone for recasting OOP stuff, recasting currently on sale items is directly stealing. This is a non essential item, not a loaf of bread.

It's just pure capitalism. If FW/GW want to stay in business then they need to competitively price their models so as to stay in business. And when they rise too high people will simply flock to recasters due to the obscenely low prices they offer. It's just the result of their actions, and results they should anticipate like any good businessman seeking to achieve long term profits. The issue here is that GW/FW for some idiot reason is once more suffering from the delusion that short term profits are stable when, if anything, they weaken the company in the long term game as customer loyalty wavers. You literally can't stop recasting from being a thing and thus must take it into consideration with any price hike.

They should take that into their price mark up strategy (100% agree), I also think the prices are a bit high. But the fact that people will flock to criminals (re-casters etc) is a bit of a stretch. They are probably focusing on the British market and everything else is a bonus (cause new factory in the States will maybe see reduction of cost in the states soon too, to build up a market cause was "man was so expensive before, now is so cheap" mentality).

Re-casters are criminals btw, just in-case are deluded into thinking games get made for free.

Spectral Ceramite wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Tbh im a bit of a cheap skate to begin with, so I might just go recasting just to save a buck. Heck, I was probably gonna go recasting to begin with if the quality is good. I've never been one for customer loyalty when it comes to hobby stuff.

But all for piracy? Not really customer loyalty - that is not buy from competitors. While I wouldn't criticism someone for recasting OOP stuff, recasting currently on sale items is directly stealing. This is a non essential item, not a loaf of bread.

It's just pure capitalism. If FW/GW want to stay in business then they need to competitively price their models so as to stay in business. And when they rise too high people will simply flock to recasters due to the obscenely low prices they offer. It's just the result of their actions, and results they should anticipate like any good businessman seeking to achieve long term profits. The issue here is that GW/FW for some idiot reason is once more suffering from the delusion that short term profits are stable when, if anything, they weaken the company in the long term game as customer loyalty wavers. You literally can't stop recasting from being a thing and thus must take it into consideration with any price hike.

They should take that into their price mark up strategy (100% agree), I also think the prices are a bit high. But the fact that people will flock to criminals (re-casters etc) is a bit of a stretch. They are probably focusing on the British market and everything else is a bonus (cause new factory in the States will maybe see reduction of cost in the states soon too, to build up a market cause was "man was so expensive before, now is so cheap" mentality).

Re-casters are criminals btw, just in-case are deluded into thinking games get made for free.

Recasters aren't criminals or good people, they're just the natural response of the market to high prices. Their existence is solely because of the actions of GW/FW, and they would cease to exist if they were to adjust their prices to something the average consumer found tolerable instead of eye-watering. People won't necessarily "flock" to recasters (mainly because it's a to contact one), but GW's sales will decline as recasters siphon off the desire for (cheap) GW/FW products until the company goes under after exsanguinating. If you don't want recasters then price your product competitively and hit them where it hurts. Don't expand in the US: move all production over to China to take advantage of lower labor costs to make all of your products in plastic for dirt cheap while not really suffering any loss in quality. But if people see a way to make money at your expense, they will take it and you should always anticipate and move to counter it.

Spectral Ceramite wrote:


Re-casters are criminals btw, just in-case are deluded into thinking games get made for free.

This is exactly how I feel, just like a fake coach handbag or knockoff air Jordans its cheating and if you feel the need to support the black market be my guest but go mother flock yourself.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Spectral Ceramite wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Tbh im a bit of a cheap skate to begin with, so I might just go recasting just to save a buck. Heck, I was probably gonna go recasting to begin with if the quality is good. I've never been one for customer loyalty when it comes to hobby stuff.

But all for piracy? Not really customer loyalty - that is not buy from competitors. While I wouldn't criticism someone for recasting OOP stuff, recasting currently on sale items is directly stealing. This is a non essential item, not a loaf of bread.

It's just pure capitalism. If FW/GW want to stay in business then they need to competitively price their models so as to stay in business. And when they rise too high people will simply flock to recasters due to the obscenely low prices they offer. It's just the result of their actions, and results they should anticipate like any good businessman seeking to achieve long term profits. The issue here is that GW/FW for some idiot reason is once more suffering from the delusion that short term profits are stable when, if anything, they weaken the company in the long term game as customer loyalty wavers. You literally can't stop recasting from being a thing and thus must take it into consideration with any price hike.

They should take that into their price mark up strategy (100% agree), I also think the prices are a bit high. But the fact that people will flock to criminals (re-casters etc) is a bit of a stretch. They are probably focusing on the British market and everything else is a bonus (cause new factory in the States will maybe see reduction of cost in the states soon too, to build up a market cause was "man was so expensive before, now is so cheap" mentality).

Re-casters are criminals btw, just in-case are deluded into thinking games get made for free.

Recasters aren't criminals

I think the IP laws say they are? Even if not, they are criminals to me so they can go jump. If I can't support a game I go without, I don't buy a product that supports some degenerate company.

Secondarly, I would think opening up a factory/supplier on your soil (or any country) promotes job opportunities (if not in manufacturing, in sales etc) is always a boon to your economy. I think in the long run they will reduce prices to North American customers (how can they not). So in the long run will only be golden.

 Wyzilla wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Tbh im a bit of a cheap skate to begin with, so I might just go recasting just to save a buck. Heck, I was probably gonna go recasting to begin with if the quality is good. I've never been one for customer loyalty when it comes to hobby stuff.

But all for piracy? Not really customer loyalty - that is not buy from competitors. While I wouldn't criticism someone for recasting OOP stuff, recasting currently on sale items is directly stealing. This is a non essential item, not a loaf of bread.

It's just pure capitalism. If FW/GW want to stay in business then they need to competitively price their models so as to stay in business. And when they rise too high people will simply flock to recasters due to the obscenely low prices they offer. It's just the result of their actions, and results they should anticipate like any good businessman seeking to achieve long term profits. The issue here is that GW/FW for some idiot reason is once more suffering from the delusion that short term profits are stable when, if anything, they weaken the company in the long term game as customer loyalty wavers. You literally can't stop recasting from being a thing and thus must take it into consideration with any price hike.

Relying on criminals is not 'pure capitalism'.

Pure capitalism would be simply not buying a product if it's too expensive for you, or buying someone else's legitimate product (play Warmachine or Malifaux or what have you).

These miniatures are the intellectual property of GW, and it is their right to exclusively sell them for whatever price they decide. THAT is capitalism. It should protect the IP of businesses or creatives everywhere would be totally screwed.

hobojebus wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Tbh im a bit of a cheap skate to begin with, so I might just go recasting just to save a buck. Heck, I was probably gonna go recasting to begin with if the quality is good. I've never been one for customer loyalty when it comes to hobby stuff.

But all for piracy? Not really customer loyalty - that is not buy from competitors. While I wouldn't criticism someone for recasting OOP stuff, recasting currently on sale items is directly stealing. This is a non essential item, not a loaf of bread.

No it's not much the same way downloading a game off a piracy site isnt.

If someone's unwilling to pay the retail cost and goes to a recaster/pirate you haven't lost a sale the fact is you were never going to get that person's money even if the recaster/pirate wasn't there.

As I've said before it's not a legal issue it's a moral one, you may think it immoral to use a recaster but others dont.

It is a legal issue as it is copyright theft and it is against the law in most countries (its even against the law in China, its just that they don't respect international copyright, but they do have their own internal copyright system). People who try to make it a moral argument often fail to realise that it is stealing, plus it can even harm the company.

Take your computer game example, if bootleg copies are bought and users encounter problems they will, most times, jump right onto the games official support system (email/forums) and request help. So now they have not only not paid for the game, but they are not eating up time and money of the games developers trying to get help. Furthermore you could reach a situation like what Poland had where bootleg copies of games were so common most people thought that the market sold copies (bootleg) were legitimate. It was so prevalent that you couldn't tell, yet the developers knew they were losing sales all the time (GoG did a great video on this a short while back and their attitude was to offer legitimate customers more - to improve their customer relationship rather than go the DRM route).


For GW, as said above, these are not essential purchases and the recaster is leaching money out of the hobby itself. They are not paying to develop the model, run stores, gaming evenings, support channels, youtube tips, marketing, new products, lore, books, artwork, paints and accessories etc.... They are purely using their vastly lower overheads and copy-catting the product to undercut the legal market option.
Plus if it became "normal" even in a small way then you can bet they wouldn't stop with FW - its just easier for them to market that. You can bet they'd start making Warmachine Colossal and other big model range models at cut-prices. They would impact other games- heck Rackham had a reacasting company selling those models for years (although in that rare case they appear to have only recast whilst the product was out of production and have recently stopped and started their own line - likely an exception rather than the rule when it comes to recasters- though it still does not justify the recasting)

Don't forget that in general the law is divided into Civil and Criminal law and IP law is usually part of the Civil Code so recasters aren't criminals in a legal sense.

(I do not support recasting).

 Baragash wrote:
Don't forget that in general the law is divided into Civil and Criminal law and IP law is usually part of the Civil Code so recasters aren't criminals in a legal sense.

(I do not support recasting).

It'll vary from country to country, but in the US as an example recasters would be criminals. Criminal infringement is the intentional violation of copyright for financial gain. Civil would be cases like if it was just for personal use.

What's criminal is FW basically giving a middle finger to their International customer base and offering no explanation for it. And this is a clear case of price gouging (literally had price increases as high as 73%) so I don't buy the whole inflation, export import tax ect. excuses. When more people start going to recasters they are more than morally justified in doing so, FW clearly doesn't give a damn about customer issues or feedback (considering they have been deleting comments about it on Facebook and blatantly ignoring people's problems with it) so why the hell should potential customers care? FW created this situation so if there is any fallout or increase in sales for recasters it is on them and them alone.

 gmaleron wrote:
What's criminal is FW basically giving a middle finger to their International customer base and offering no explanation for it. And this is a clear case of price gouging (literally had price increases as high as 73%) so I don't buy the whole inflation, export import tax ect. excuses. When more people start going to recasters they are more than morally justified in doing so, FW clearly doesn't give a damn about customer issues or feedback (considering they have been deleting comments about it on Facebook and blatantly ignoring people's problems with it) so why the hell should potential customers care? FW created this situation so if there is any fallout or increase in sales for recasters it is on them and them alone.

No, that's not criminal. It's their perogative as creater of the intellectual property. Stealing intellectual property is never morally justifiable. If we were talking about water or flour or something you might have a point, but this is a luxury product. You don't need it. If you don't like their pricing then simply don't buy it.

You think what you want and people who have FW armies and don't live in the UK like myself will think another way, your so-called moral High Ground is your opinion and yours alone. They want to steal from and rip off their International customers? I see no problem with them returning the favor, as of now I've only debated doing it but seeing as I have 8400 points of Krieg already chances are I'm just going to stop supporting them, however if people want to go through recasters I give them a thumbs up.

You are correct FW can do what they want since they are a private business, at the same time though potential and current consumers of their product or of the hobby in general have the right to spend their money how they see fit, and thanks to FWs over the top price hikes and horrible customer service since the raise they are/will be the ones responsible and them alone for the increase in recaster business