It is really surprising to me how badly the last saga film hurt my enthusiasm for all things Star Wars.
I've been through disappointing films with the Prequels but this really cut deep. I think it was the themes of disdain for the existing fans and open contempt that really did it. It's one thing to make a bad movie but to create it and support it in a way where it feels like the existing fans aren't welcome was too much.
I've been immersing myself in the things I know I enjoy (old comics, video games, Clone Wars etc) which has helped but I'm still unsure if I'll even watch the future Disney films.
But until Disney+ launches, there’s not a great deal to talk about.
Also, anytime a Star Wars thread is started, it’s roughly two pages before it just descends into the shocking, previously unheard of revelation that some didn’t enjoy The Last Jedi.
Yes, I still care about Star Wars and am eagerly waiting for my copy of the newest Thrawn book to arrive (was released three days ago). Looking forward to the Mandolorian tv series but honestly don't care about the next film. Resistance was a big let down after Rebels but hopefully it can improve in the next season and am hopeful for the last season of Clone Wars.
On the gaming side I play X-Wing twice a week, have regionals next weekend and am going to Sydney for the System Open series, we are going to play Armada and Outer Rim (and maybe WEG RPG) starting in September.
I just wish that the Disney movies actually told the more interesting stories that barely get mentioned. Like Luke's Jedi Academy couldn't have been several movies all by themselves? Nah, let's do another Death Star, only this time make it bigger and make the Rebellion even smaller, because we're too scared to not remake A New Hope.
For me, I got to play X-Wing 2E and my impression was, this is everything I loved about the mechanics of 1E but better ... yet I can’t be bothered because, shrug, Star Wars. When FFG announced CW for Legion, I thought, oh cool Republic Clone Troopers against all kinds of cool droids but, shrug, Star Wars. When the Ep IX teaser trailer came out, shrug, Star Wars, I guess. It’s a lot of shrug, for me at least.
But until Disney+ launches, there’s not a great deal to talk about.
Also, anytime a Star Wars thread is started, it’s roughly two pages before it just descends into the shocking, previously unheard of revelation that some didn’t enjoy The Last Jedi.
So, you thought you'd preemptively derail it before the end of page one by snarking at people who didn't like TLJ?
Like it or not, people's opinion of TLJ is going to remain relevant unless & until Lucasfilm can put out enough quality material to negate the impact it had on said people's overall enjoyment of the franchise. Realistically, you're looking at a minimum of the new season of TCW being good, The Mandalorian being good, the Cassian show being good, and the first of whatever movie trilogy comes after also being good before that test is met. Fortunately the first three outcomes seem fairly plausible, so cross your fingers for an Old Republic fanservicefest(that is also, ideally, just a good movie on its own merits) for the next trilogy.
Or the 9th movie could be just so utterly spectacular, so tonally perfect, and address most of the issues with TLJ in such a way as to, if not retroactively fix it, at least wash away the taste of it, but at that stage you'd be as well wishing for a unicorn because the chances of that happening are infinitesimal - we'll be lucky to get through it without them tainting Leia and Palpatine.
But until Disney+ launches, there’s not a great deal to talk about.
Also, anytime a Star Wars thread is started, it’s roughly two pages before it just descends into the shocking, previously unheard of revelation that some didn’t enjoy The Last Jedi.
Well done for trying to prod and push those who dare not to like such a cinemetic triamph (huge sarcasm) into a response
For me Star Wars is vaguely interesting but not if Rian Johnson is involved - I will see what turns up, look at trailers and make a descion for myself - not being beholden to obey the dubious instructions of self proclaimed experts like Film Critics.
At this stage, what does it matter? Your lack of enjoyment of a film in no way reduces my enjoyment.
But when a thread is about, say, the new Thrawn trilogy (just nabbed the third part), and it quickly descends into how much four or five posters didn't enjoy The Last Jedi? That's draining. Very, very draining.
I genuinely don't care if you don't like. I genuinely don't care if you do like it. To each their own. But do we have to hear about it in every single thread even tangentially linked to the wider Star Wars universe??
But when the thread is asking about if you care about Star Wars and that film has generated such a response, it's difficult to have a conversation without acknowledging it.
The problem with the films is that if you aren't interested in the extended universe (I'm not), then they're the only source of reference. TFA was competent but uninteresting, R1 was good, TLJ was bad and Solo was competent but meh. One good film out of the recent four is not a good return and doesn't generate any will to care about the franchise.
I'll wait for reviews on the next film but I honestly wouldn't care if it was bad and I don't see it. I only watched TLJ out of morbid curiosity.
John Prins wrote: I just wish that the Disney movies actually told the more interesting stories that barely get mentioned. Like Luke's Jedi Academy couldn't have been several movies all by themselves? Nah, let's do another Death Star, only this time make it bigger and make the Rebellion even smaller, because we're too scared to not remake A New Hope.
My God, that would mean "I, Jedi" would get made into a movie. No no no no no.
I want to be hyped about Star Wars, but the Prequels were like Batman Forever and the Newquels are like Batman And Robin as far as the Star Wars franchise goes as far as I'm concerned. I need a Batman Begins to fix that for me. Right now Star Trek as a franchise garners more interest from me.
Henry wrote: But when the thread is asking about if you care about Star Wars and that film has generated such a response, it's difficult to have a conversation without acknowledging it.
The problem with the films is that if you aren't interested in the extended universe (I'm not), then they're the only source of reference. TFA was competent but uninteresting, R1 was good, TLJ was bad and Solo was competent but meh. One good film out of the recent four is not a good return and doesn't generate any will to care about the franchise.
I'll wait for reviews on the next film but I honestly wouldn't care if it was bad and I don't see it. I only watched TLJ out of morbid curiosity.
Oh I'm not meaning this thread in particular (could've been clearer). Just Star Wars in general.
What's your favourite ship design? - Oh, you didn't like The Last Jedi. Erm....thank you for your contribution.
Disney show interested in developing pre-prequels, set in The Old Republic. Wonder what bits they might recanonise? - Oh, you didn't like The Last Jedi? Erm....thank you for your contribution
Star War Rebels - persevering past the first ropey season? - Oh, you didn't like The Last Jedi? Erm....thank you for your contribution?
That sort of thing. TIme and place. And it's not every single Star Wars thread.
I'm looking forward to the Mandalorian, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was the best thing Disney has done with the IP so far. (and i'm surprised there is no official trailer yet, and they've left us sitting on bootleg footage for months). But as for the current trilogy, they threw a wrench in it with TLJ. Could care less how this turns out, in fact I can't see it resolving in any satisfying manner. I'm now 26 years old, and for me star wars is now a thing of the past, I grew up loving it, even have a slight soft spot for the prequels due to nostalgia. but seeing where it's going (nowhere particularly interesting)....I have little excitement left in me for it.
I'm 100% on board with the Dune movie and series though, anything Villeneuve does i'll watch.
I'm particularly interested in the Cassian Andor spin off series.
That's because Rogue One did an intriguing job of showing the dirtier side of The Rebellion, which in turn helps up the stakes somewhat. When nominally good people do Bad Things, in the name of The Right Thing (overthrowing a military junta), the threat they're trying to end becomes far more real.
And I'm a sucker for Eisenhorn type 'down the rabbit hole' morality. What does a life of sabotage and assassination do to someone Fighting The Good Fight? What is left of the noble spirit that first took up arms to fight for those who can't when it's all done?
Henry wrote: But when the thread is asking about if you care about Star Wars and that film has generated such a response, it's difficult to have a conversation without acknowledging it.
The problem with the films is that if you aren't interested in the extended universe (I'm not), then they're the only source of reference. TFA was competent but uninteresting, R1 was good, TLJ was bad and Solo was competent but meh. One good film out of the recent four is not a good return and doesn't generate any will to care about the franchise.
I'll wait for reviews on the next film but I honestly wouldn't care if it was bad and I don't see it. I only watched TLJ out of morbid curiosity.
Oh I'm not meaning this thread in particular (could've been clearer). Just Star Wars in general.
What's your favourite ship design? - Oh, you didn't like The Last Jedi. Erm....thank you for your contribution.
Disney show interested in developing pre-prequels, set in The Old Republic. Wonder what bits they might recanonise? - Oh, you didn't like The Last Jedi? Erm....thank you for your contribution
Star War Rebels - persevering past the first ropey season? - Oh, you didn't like The Last Jedi? Erm....thank you for your contribution?
That sort of thing. TIme and place. And it's not every single Star Wars thread.
That's a pretty dishonest presentation of the situation. The form is much more commonly: someone expresses dislike for TLJ as part of a post explaining their disinterest in something, or because they've noticed a similarity in why they dislike a new piece of Star Wars media and why they disliked TLJ. They are then challenged over their dislike of TLJ, sometimes politely and often decidedly not, and the argument begins anew with folk chipping in.
You need at least two people to have a proper argument, and there's just as little preventing people who do like TLJ from simply scrolling past someone's passing remark indicating they feel the opposite way rather than leaping in to defend it or demand people "get over it".
I think TLJ kinda poisoned the well on enthusiasm. It did for me.
The discourse surrounding that movie is highly toxic. The 2 locked threads here on dakka are nearly perfect examples. And it basicly makes me not wanna discuss SW with other people anymore. Heck read the posts in this very thread and it's already becoming a thing.
I still view the original trilogy with happy nostalgia but when it comes newer Star Wars stuff it’s all about our kids. Our sons like Star Wars and watching the clone wars cartoon with them was nice and battling them with Star Wars toys is cool. I have given up any attachment to the new movies/universe. Where they go with it doesn’t detract from my ability to enjoy the OT (I also liked Rogue One) and our kids like the movies even when I think they’re just nonsensical spectacle. It’s the same with any other Disney movie. Frozen is a narrative mess but our daughter loves it so I’ve seen it a bunch and I don’t get worked up over it because she’s happy. I’m not the target audience for this stuff and I’m cool with that.
I think it is going back to TLJ for me (sorry, really, for bringing it up).
The movie and assorted interviews were all very much "we don't want you as a fan of Star Wars anymore, you nerd."
Combined with me actually liking Solo - which is again apparently seen as, admittedly to a lesser extent, a 'bad' thing kind of makes me go, 'oh well, ok then, y'all have a nice time, I'll be over here with my Star Trek, CW tv shows and X-Men...
Star Wars gave me Science Fiction. Didn’t care about Star Trek, didn’t care about Battlestar Galactica or Dr Who. It was Star Wars for me. The original trilogy was my prize possession (even though I only owned the first “special edition”). I watched it until the tapes wore out. I gave the prequel a shot and my enjoyment for Star Wars wasn’t crushed. I played the video games, I bought into X-Wing when it became a thing...before the dark times. Before Rian Johnson. So regardless of what Mad Doc WANTS to hear/see, Rian Johnson’s Episode Trash: “the Search for Pissing on Fans” did ruin Star Wars for me. I’m apathetic after it. Couldn’t even finish Solo. I’m just...I’m out. And it is 100% the fault of that bad movie. I still enjoyed SW after the prequels. I loved the cartoons. I even craved the next installment after TFA. And now, nothing. So Mad Doc, the thread asks if anyone still cares, and I don’t. If you don’t approve of the REASON for me not caring anymore, I’m sorry. But the blame for losing me as a fan rests solely with that movie.
Excommunicatus wrote: Some of us never gave a flying [Expletive Deleted] to begin with.
And some of you were handed the keys to the franchise it seems, otherwise we wouldn't be in this mess.
I was such a hype starwars fan from my early teens (when I read the books) through my mid teens when I finally saw the movies(VHS), played a ton of starwars VG and read most of the expanded universe. I suffered the clone wars cgi for a good while in an attempt to sift for gold in the mire.
I'm so dulled to it all now, things I enjoyed have been retroactively tainted by the narrative failures of the sequel trilogy. I did enjoy Rogue One, so I'm not just a cranky old man who doesn't enjoy new things.
I worry that I might feel so dulled to 40k some day- I couldn't care less for Primaris. 40k is more of a pick and mix though, your headcanon carries more weight because the in universe information is limited and conflicting.
I have no interest in the completion of the New Trilogy.
However, I am interested in other Star Wars properties; especially A Star Wars Story type movies. I will not go out of my way for them and there is no way I am going to subscribe to another subscription service for Star Wars.
This shocks me, as before Phantom Menace, I was a hard as carbonite fan before.
At this stage, what does it matter? Your lack of enjoyment of a film in no way reduces my enjoyment.
But when a thread is about, say, the new Thrawn trilogy (just nabbed the third part), and it quickly descends into how much four or five posters didn't enjoy The Last Jedi? That's draining. Very, very draining.
I genuinely don't care if you don't like. I genuinely don't care if you do like it. To each their own. But do we have to hear about it in every single thread even tangentially linked to the wider Star Wars universe??
I'd wager no. No we don't.
Pretty much what they said. I'm not going to post anything about SW when I know there's a 90+% possibility that the same handful of keyboard warriors are going to drag it into a flaming pit while the mods look on from the sidelines.
I've never been a huge fan of the franchise, but I did enjoy it, and it was part of my culture growing up/as a young adult. I watched the first one of the new films, but not the next ones. It wasn't bad, I'm just not that interested it the stuff anymore.
Now, my nephews/nieces (~5-10 years old) are the big fans: they watch the movies as soon as they get released, and have tons and tons of merchandise (costumes, action figures, legos, etc.). It's the whole Disney package for them, and even a big part of their trips to the Disney Park near Paris.
So to me, SW is really a big Disney franchise at this point, just like Frozen and the like. Seriously, my niece went from being a hardcore Frozen fan (can't remember the name of the princess she was dressing up as), to a fan of the new Jedi girl (Rey?).
As others have said, TLJ and to some extent Solo combined with the fact that most new Star Wars content will be coming with Disney+, there's either not much to talk about, or too many people that will continue to rant about TLJ.
So while there are certainly plenty of people still excited about SW (me included), many of us don't want the discussion to spiral into TLJ bashing. Especially since threads have been locked because of it.
My personal opinion on TLJ is that I enjoyed watching it, but I'm holding my judgement of it until I have seen and digested Rise of Skywalker, which could easily "retcon" some of the decisions made for TLJ to subvert expectations without undercutting the impact of those decisions
So in that regard, I am excited to see what's next
I love Star Wars; I just have lost all love of the fanbase, which means I've lost a lot of love of the shared experience. Particularly here. This place is just misery I can't seem to completely quit.
I care a lot more than I did after the prequel trilogy launched,
but a lot less than I did when the original trilogy (and various bits of the EU) were all there was
but its not as if I'd rush to buy tickets, or cancel plans to go out to watch a tv show (and certainly not buy into a subscription service for it either)
Manchu wrote: Haven’t heard about Star Wars for a couple of months, so just checking.
To be honest, no. The inner 12 year old that was obsessed with all things Star Wars has been pretty well put to bed at this point. Nothing in any of the new stuff captures my interest or imagination, the characters don't do anything for me.
I'll always be a fan of the original trilogy and a chunk of the 80's/90's videogame/book/comic stuff, but I really just have no interest in the newer stuff. Spoilers don't even bother me anymore, the emotional investment was pretty well destroyed by the last few flicks (save for the amazing Vader scene in Rogue One).
Even beyond all the character issues, incomprehensible and nonsensical plots, the Marvel-esque nature of the action, it's just gotten too...obvious and the subtlety thrown away. These are no longer movies pulled from imagination but constructed with specific product and sales goals in mind. Upon seeing the Porgs, my immersion in whatever was happening in the movie was absolutely obliterated by the painfully obvious commercial nature of their inclusion
But that's ok. The array of scifi stuff out there today pales in comparison to what we used to have, and there are plenty of alternatives to follow and capture imaginations.
I love star wars. Though I'm less connected to it now that I am an adult and don't have time to devour every book and comic alongside my job, family, and other hobbies.
I am excited about the new movie, and I hope it redeems The Last Jedi. I heavily disliked many choices made in that movie, and I hope that The Rise of Skywalker helps to give context to those choices in a way that makes sense.
It seems that even for those who like TLJ the existence of TLJ has diminished their enjoyment of SW, even if it is indirect (b/c they don’t enjoy other SW fans/ex-fans talking about not enjoying TLJ).
I will go see Ep 9 out of a sense of obligation and morbid curiosity.
Was listening to the RotJ OST whilst driving the other day. There really is just a huge quality shift between the OT and everything else.
Maybe we aren't supposed to retain the same relationship with a franchise our entire lives. Perhaps it's because I moved on from SW many years ago -- and have kinda passed that torch to my kids, whose heroes are Rey, Poe and Finn and not Luke, Leia and Han -- that I really embraced TLJ and its themes. *shrug*
George Lucas says it's kid stuff. Maybe more fans should listen.
I don't really care for it outside of the OT. They're 3 of my all time favourite films, but the movies since just haven't done it for me. I've never read any of the books, and Star Wars games have just let me down recently (looking at you Battlefront).
Manchu wrote: It seems that even for those who like TLJ the existence of TLJ has diminished their enjoyment of SW, even if it is indirect (b/c they don’t enjoy other SW fans/ex-fans talking about not enjoying TLJ). .
For me, it's not so much any kind of diminished enjoyment, just a sadness of sorts that any attempt to be remotely positive and excited about anything Star Wars (specifically, doing so in online communities) is just going to get buried amongst reams of angst, criticism and negativity. My love of Star Wars remains as strong as ever, but there's no point in really talking about or expressing that in certain circles because no one is going to engage with that in good faith. Instead, I'm just going to get people trying to tell me that I'm 'objectively' wrong for thinking a certain thing about a certain film (for instance, my belief that TLJ is a masterpiece or that TFA's use of nostalgia is not a flaw but a vital component of why I enjoy it so much), or people just using that conversation to repeat their same copy-paste rant about something that they've said a dozen times before that has no bearing on the actual discussion.
For instance, I think there's a fascinating discussion to be had (depending on how things shake out in Rise of Skywalker) about the narratives of Vader and Kylo. Where they parallel, where they differ, why those choices were made and what they mean, how one might be significantly more interesting from a storytelling perspective than the other (or not). But if I start that thread, I know that conversation won't happen. Instead, the conversation will be endless repeats of the sentiment that Kylo can't possibly be as interesting as Vader because the films he's in are 'garbage' and therefore there's no merit discussing it, not to mention those that are going to attack for me even daring to suggest that the new characters can be as interesting as their predecessors. And while, I'm sure, there will also be plenty of people who are willing to discuss it in good faith, there's inevitably going to be a lot of bantha poodoo to wade through to get to those points.
Honestly, though, I'm not sure this is really confined just to Star Wars, it's more of a trend in modern fandom as a whole, where certain portions are far more interested in being critical, derisive and contemptuous than actually talking about whatever the thing in question is, or actually having fun with it. I love Star Trek Discovery, and am ridiculously excited for Picard, but there's little point mentioning either of these things in Dakka's Star Trek thread*, because that's just page after page of negativity and pessimism. I wouldn't get to share that excitement with anyone of a like mind and instead a) that line of conversation would be a dead end or b) people would ask me to justify my enjoyment of/excitement for a show that is so 'obviously' awful. I don't get anything out of that, and it's of no interest to the people who have such negative views to see anyone being positive, so there's no point getting in on that discussion (or really, that fandom at large).
I couldn't necessarily say why this has become so pronounced in recent years, but certainly after the last 7-8 years (the Hobbit movies being the first thing where I observed this effect) it seems that online fandoms and media have often focused far more on tearing things down, over-analysing them for the most minute flaws or seeking to be cynical about their own enjoyment of something rather than just... y'know, enjoying the thing they're supposedly fans of. It's far more common for a trailer to be met with cynicism and pessimism than excitement or hope, for instance (though strangely, Marvel seems to be the only major franchise to have avoided this to some extent) and after something comes out, the ratio of videos/articles/posts about 'Why Thing X is Garbage' versus 'I enjoyed Thing X' is almost always a steep one.
Of course, this is in part because such hyperbolic criticism gains more clicks, but it wouldn't if it didn't mirror trends that already existed in the culture it serves and targets. The reason these takedowns and nitpicky criticisms get far more clicks than things that are more positive or even just more objective is clearly, to some extent, because that's what people want to see.
And as someone that doesn't like that sort of content at all and would rather just enjoy something on its own merits, focus on the positives over the negatives and generally approach things a bit more optimistically, there's just very little point in engaging with the fandoms and cultures that just lap up this relentlessly negative stuff.
*I use this as an example as it's close to hand and demonstrates the phenomenon, not because it's the zenith of this effect or to attack any specific users.
A certain political commentator put it best on YouTube a few months ago. The first films were ground breaking and epic, the latest ones are forced, with shoehorned roles, trying to satisfy a modern social agenda.
At this stage, what does it matter? Your lack of enjoyment of a film in no way reduces my enjoyment.
But when a thread is about, say, the new Thrawn trilogy (just nabbed the third part), and it quickly descends into how much four or five posters didn't enjoy The Last Jedi? That's draining. Very, very draining.
I genuinely don't care if you don't like. I genuinely don't care if you do like it. To each their own. But do we have to hear about it in every single thread even tangentially linked to the wider Star Wars universe??
I'd wager no. No we don't.
"SIGH" - Hello could you be more passive agressive.
Maybe not deciding what people can and can not post on a thread would be a more adult thing to do - please cite your authoirity.
for me Star Wars was a bunch of fun films, its not fun anymore - it was never especially important for me - but good fun.
It for good or ill is dominated by a film that YOU somehow decide no one else is allowed to mention - the arrogance is astounding.
The LEGO Star War series / movies though remain brilliant fun.
I still enjoy classic Star Wars, the original trilogy. A fun, not-so-serious space romp.
I didn't enjoy the prequels. I have not enjoyed the new films with the exception of Rogue One (which are arguably my favourite Star Wars film thus far). The new ones have killed off my interest in "more" Star Wars though. I no longer care. I saw the trailer for the next film and simply couldn't care less.
Could I be interested by an offshoot film or TV series by a competent director? Maybe, but my enthusiasm or interest is at an all time low.
I still enjoy classic Star Wars, the original trilogy. A fun, not-so-serious space romp.
Agreed - same here - not sure why people keep saying any naysayers are somehow fixated on its vital cultural importance - its not how awesome the old filsm were - they were pretty good but for mnay of us how unbeleivable awful TlJ was.
who directs the LEGO movies/series - they should get them to do the next live action film
Manchu wrote: It seems that even for those who like TLJ the existence of TLJ has diminished their enjoyment of SW, even if it is indirect (b/c they don’t enjoy other SW fans/ex-fans talking about not enjoying TLJ).
I feel like you're bending over backwards to blame TLJ for what is ultimately an issue with the fandom proper.
Thats not to say you're wrong about the constant bombardment being draining though.
I'm transitioning our Edge of the Empire game into an Only War one precisely because we can't seem to get through a session without someone bringing up that they're not going to see the new one and how ruined the franchise is and exactly who's fault it is. I see no reason to put work in week after week preparing maps and encounters, practicing voices etc, if all it does is serve to remind them of something they hate now.
It's going to get even worse once 9 comes out. Yes, it's script fixer is the guy who excreted Justice League and Batman V Superman, but even if it somehow miraculously isn't awful the people on both sides are too invested, and the discourse will be just as hostile.
I love Star Wars. I will always love Star Wars. Although I do accept the fact that, as an older fan, none of the new stuff is being made for me. I can live with that as that is just how these things tend to work out. I will always have the EU (Like, seriously I have SO MUCH EU stuff)
I just straight up cannot stand "Star Wars" fans. I am so done with them I just don't bother to talk about Star wars with anyone anymore. All I ever hear from them is how much they hate Star Wars.
Like...dude...If you dislike it so much, I got news for you, you are not a fan.
Empire Strikes Back is not the best film. It is a movie about people flying away from things for 2 hours....there, I said it! Nothing happens in that film. It is a VERY good movie for a film where nothing happens, props to the director, but I stand by that statement.
Paradigm wrote: (though strangely, Marvel seems to be the only major franchise to have avoided this to some extent)
It's coming. Now that they've hit a coda on the major story arc people were invested in, people will look to find ways to excuse themselves to jump ship. This forum is already managing to make each movie feel inevitably miserable; check out that Thor 4 thread or the Captain Marvel thread before it.
We've just seen an era where fans start to feel like they have control over the content. I see people reference Bioware buckling on the end of ME3 as the turning point, but honestly it seems like it was an issue long before. Star Wars is easily one of the worst fandoms for this. Comics used to top them, but the MCU was placating enough to not make it an issue until it had drawn in an audience that grossly outmatched its niche fandom.
Manchu wrote: It seems that even for those who like TLJ the existence of TLJ has diminished their enjoyment of SW, even if it is indirect (b/c they don’t enjoy other SW fans/ex-fans talking about not enjoying TLJ).
I feel like you're bending over backwards to blame TLJ for what is ultimately an issue with the fandom proper.
Thats not to say you're wrong about the constant bombardment being draining though.
I'm transitioning our Edge of the Empire game into an Only War one precisely because we can't seem to get through a session without someone bringing up that they're not going to see the new one and how ruined the franchise is and exactly who's fault it is. I see no reason to put work in week after week preparing maps and encounters, practicing voices etc, if all it does is serve to remind them of something they hate now.
It's going to get even worse once 9 comes out. Yes, it's script fixer is the guy who excreted Justice League and Batman V Superman, but even if it somehow miraculously isn't awful the people on both sides are too invested, and the discourse will be just as hostile.
The funny part for me is that ROTJ could never stand up to the hyper-criticism people use against the prequels and sequels. It isn't a very good film. The direction, script and performances are the worst of the originals, and it's not even close. Even Harrison Ford looks like he should be doing dinner theater. Cripes, people carp about porgs, but at least they're just scene dressing. The Ewoks represent far more brazen pandering, and they're real characters and an important part of that film's story!
But ROTJ gets a pass because nostalgia. Which is a very powerful poison, and a reason why superfans seem so constantly upset with franchises that should be their favorites. #NotMyWhatever
It's very hard to live up to some golden ideal that doesn't actually exist. If I was running a studio, I probably wouldn't give two gaks about the superfans of any given franchise either. You can never please them, so feth 'em. Aim at the fans a step or two toward the center, general audiences, and everyone in between, and let the superfans not care anymore.
Empire Strikes Back is not the best film. It is a movie about people flying away from things for 2 hours....there, I said it! Nothing happens in that film. It is a VERY good movie for a film where nothing happens, props to the director, but I stand by that statement.
Hrm, I would disagree with that characterization.
Empire is where Luke is forged into a Jedi. He goes from lucky plucky kid in the first flick, is put through hell in Empire, and emerges complete in RotJ. Han and Leia's relationship begins, Han's backstory is fleshed out, Vader's place is revealed, etc. They fight Wompas, Stormtroopers, Vader, Space Worms, their own fears, ATAT's, etc.
Lots of stuff happens in that flick, including a ton of the character development. It's the story of how Luke becomes a Jedi.
Whatever else one may feel about Star Wars as a franchise, Empire absolutely is not just people running away for 2 hours.
Paradigm wrote: (though strangely, Marvel seems to be the only major franchise to have avoided this to some extent)
It's coming. Now that they've hit a coda on the major story arc people were invested in, people will look to find ways to excuse themselves to jump ship. This forum is already managing to make each movie feel inevitably miserable; check out that Thor 4 thread or the Captain Marvel thread before it.
We've just seen an era where fans start to feel like they have control over the content. I see people reference Bioware buckling on the end of ME3 as the turning point, but honestly it seems like it was an issue long before. Star Wars is easily one of the worst fandoms for this. Comics used to top them, but the MCU was placating enough to not make it an issue until it had drawn in an audience that grossly outmatched its niche fandom.
The Marvel brand is utterly amazing. The fact that a movie as mediocre as Captain Marvel made a *billion* dollars is still mindblowing to me. I know what you're saying, and I agree with you to an extent. I hesitate to make any predictions though, just because strong brands create a deep reservoir of goodwill, and Marvel's brand is extra-special.
It's not a good time for creative people in that industry, though. Audiences aren't inclined to show up for big new ideas. They'll show up for franchises, remakes, sequels, etc., but if you fail to check all the fan service boxes, they'll turn on you hard. And creative work isn't about checking boxes. It's no wonder so many are turning to streaming services and premium channels. Those give creators a better chance of finding their audiences. For example (and getting back on topic), even if Favreau's Mandalorian series is excellent, there will almost certainly be loud complaints from some corner or other of the SW fanbase. But at least it won't have the pressure of needing to open to $100-200 million. It'll have more room to find its audience.
For a lot of us I think SW is dead. Taken over by a PC company trying to score brownie points with the public instead of being true to it's fanbase. 100 years from now I think people will still watch the original films because they will have classic appeal. The might even watch the prequels if the were inserted in the story arch and they enjoy that aspect of it. Then theyll come to the pile of crap that is ep 7/8 and they will literally ask questions like..."What happened in the second decade of the first millennium that made everything made in that era start to suck a lot?"
For clarity? If you don’t like TLJ? Great. It’s not a film for you.
But why not dedicate a thread to criticism of the movie? Because my issue is that since Chrimbo 2017, no thread about Star Wars on Dakka has escaped people derailing the topic with complaining about The Last Jedi.
Hey, I get it. There are many films I really don’t like. Like, at all. Such as Donnie Darko, Justice League, Wonder Woman and pretty much anything Anime.
But I don’t harsh anyone’s mellow by constantly, relentlessly criticising them at the slightest excuse. Sure, I may comment such as ‘I didn’t enjoy X, and I think Y is an awful actor/actress’ now and again. But I don’t gatecrash threads to do so. Seriously. I cannot stand Anime. It’s just not for me. So I just don’t drop into the Anime thread. Because whilst I don’t personally respect the medium, I can respect the differing opinions of others.
To recap. I genuinely don’t care what anyone else thinks of TLJ. Love it? Great. Like it? Great. Not to keen? Great. Utterly loathe it? Great. That’s you being you, and that’s good. Just, time and a place.
If the topic is Clone Wars? TLJ is not relevant. If the topic is X-Wing? TLJ is not relevant. If the topic is the Prequels? TLJ is not relevant. If the topic is the trailer for Episode IX? TLJ is only partly relevant.
I am not policing anyone’s opinion. I am not challenging anyone’s opinion. But I am challenging behaviour and general manners.
Paradigm wrote: (though strangely, Marvel seems to be the only major franchise to have avoided this to some extent)
It's coming. Now that they've hit a coda on the major story arc people were invested in, people will look to find ways to excuse themselves to jump ship. This forum is already managing to make each movie feel inevitably miserable; check out that Thor 4 thread or the Captain Marvel thread before it.
We've just seen an era where fans start to feel like they have control over the content. I see people reference Bioware buckling on the end of ME3 as the turning point, but honestly it seems like it was an issue long before. Star Wars is easily one of the worst fandoms for this. Comics used to top them, but the MCU was placating enough to not make it an issue until it had drawn in an audience that grossly outmatched its niche fandom.
The Marvel brand is utterly amazing. The fact that a movie as mediocre as Captain Marvel made a *billion* dollars is still mindblowing to me. I know what you're saying, and I agree with you to an extent. I hesitate to make any predictions though, just because strong brands create a deep reservoir of goodwill, and Marvel's brand is extra-special.
It's not a good time for creative people in that industry, though. Audiences aren't inclined to show up for big new ideas. They'll show up for franchises, remakes, sequels, etc., but if you fail to check all the fan service boxes, they'll turn on you hard. And creative work isn't about checking boxes. It's no wonder so many are turning to streaming services and premium channels. Those give creators a better chance of finding their audiences. For example (and getting back on topic), even if Favreau's Mandilorian series is excellent, there will almost certainly be loud complaints from some corner or other of the SW fanbase. But at least it won't have the pressure of needing to open to $100-200 million. It'll have more room to find its audience.
Something about it appeals to everyone. Even their bad films make billions. Then again - a lot of this has to do with ticket pricing doesn't it?
The funny part for me is that ROTJ could never stand up to the hyper-criticism people use against the prequels and sequels. It isn't a very good film. The direction, script and performances are the worst of the originals, and it's not even close. Even Harrison Ford looks like he should be doing dinner theater. Cripes, people carp about porgs, but at least they're just scene dressing. The Ewoks represent far more brazen pandering, and they're real characters and an important part of that film's story!
But ROTJ gets a pass because nostalgia. Which is a very powerful poison, and a reason why superfans seem so constantly upset with franchises that should be their favorites. #NotMyWhatever
It's very hard to live up to some golden ideal that doesn't actually exist. If I was running a studio, I probably wouldn't give two gaks about the superfans of any given franchise either. You can never please them, so feth 'em. Aim at the fans a step or two toward the center, general audiences, and everyone in between, and let the superfans not care anymore.
I mean you see the same thing happening with the prequels right now. Everyone from my generation who experienced the prequels as kids love those movies despite how terrible they are. I didn't recognize those as bad movies until I was like 16. We have nostalgia for the admittedly bad prequels. Once this last movie comes out, it will be regarded as either great or terrible, the judgment will be passed on the trilogy as a whole. Then in 15 years. The kids who grew up with this will create r/sequelmemes on reddit and the nostalgia trip will make it popular again.
But why not dedicate a thread to criticism of the movie? Because my issue is that since Chrimbo 2017, no thread about Star Wars on Dakka has escaped people derailing the topic with complaining about The Last Jedi.
Hey, I get it. There are many films I really don’t like. Like, at all. Such as Donnie Darko, Justice League, Wonder Woman and pretty much anything Anime.
But I don’t harsh anyone’s mellow by constantly, relentlessly criticising them at the slightest excuse. Sure, I may comment such as ‘I didn’t enjoy X, and I think Y is an awful actor/actress’ now and again. But I don’t gatecrash threads to do so. Seriously. I cannot stand Anime. It’s just not for me. So I just don’t drop into the Anime thread. Because whilst I don’t personally respect the medium, I can respect the differing opinions of others.
To recap. I genuinely don’t care what anyone else thinks of TLJ. Love it? Great. Like it? Great. Not to keen? Great. Utterly loathe it? Great. That’s you being you, and that’s good. Just, time and a place.
If the topic is Clone Wars? TLJ is not relevant. If the topic is X-Wing? TLJ is not relevant. If the topic is the Prequels? TLJ is not relevant. If the topic is the trailer for Episode IX? TLJ is only partly relevant.
I am not policing anyone’s opinion. I am not challenging anyone’s opinion. But I am challenging behaviour and general manners.
The dude literally asked if people still care about SW and I gave my answer and supported it. Tried to add a little perspective too because I think 100 years from now people will look back at TLJ and judge it as critically as we do. Also. TLJ is a SW film so bringing it up is relevant.
I mean you see the same thing happening with the prequels right now. Everyone from my generation who experienced the prequels as kids love those movies despite how terrible they are. I didn't recognize those as bad movies until I was like 16. We have nostalgia for the admittedly bad prequels. Once this last movie comes out, it will be regarded as either great or terrible, the judgment will be passed on the trilogy as a whole. Then in 15 years. The kids who grew up with this will create r/sequelmemes on reddit and the nostalgia trip will make it popular again.
There will also be a decade of extended continuity of wildly varying quality to cherry pick the best parts from.
I don't really care for the prequel movies themselves, but the era is a lot more interesting now than it was when Revenge hit theaters.
Empire Strikes Back is not the best film. It is a movie about people flying away from things for 2 hours....there, I said it! Nothing happens in that film. It is a VERY good movie for a film where nothing happens, props to the director, but I stand by that statement.
Hrm, I would disagree with that characterization.
Empire is where Luke is forged into a Jedi. He goes from lucky plucky kid in the first flick, is put through hell in Empire, and emerges complete in RotJ. Han and Leia's relationship begins, Han's backstory is fleshed out, Vader's place is revealed, etc. They fight Wompas, Stormtroopers, Vader, Space Worms, their own fears, ATAT's, etc.
Lots of stuff happens in that flick, including a ton of the character development. It's the story of how Luke becomes a Jedi.
Whatever else one may feel about Star Wars as a franchise, Empire absolutely is not just people running away for 2 hours.
The very first scene of that film is a Probe Droid flying away from a Star Destroyer.
The very last scene of the film is the rebel fleet flying off into the distance (after watching the Millenium Falcon fly away from the Rebel fleet as well.
Everything in the middle of the movie is people flying away from stuff, whether that be more Star Destroyers, Tie Fighters, Giant space Monsters, Star Destroyers again etc...
Now I do not say this to disparage the film or anything like that. As I said, I like love Star wars and will watch it over and over and never be bored. The reason I say this critique is that those gatekeeping Star Wars fans who like to dump on all things Star Wars always have the same refrain. "Really the only good Star wars movie is the Empire Strikes back. Everything else is either kiddy or not well made." (aka the prequels).
So I always like to highlight the fact ESB is not the godly movie they seem to think. Much like how Randall gave his little rant in Clerks 2 about how the Lord of the Rings movies are just a series of films of people walking for 3 hours. ESB is just a film of people flying away from stuff for 2 hours.
And don't get me started on peoples opinions of Return of The Jedi. I'll admit that it is by far my favorite Star wars film, so I am 100% biased when I say this, but I will defend that film to the death. Especially as I find the majority of the critiques lazy and overly hung up on the Ewoks.
Seriously, do you honestly believe that a native population, with superior tactical knowledge of the terrain, with pre-planned ambushes and hit and run guerrilla tactics, superior camouflage and inspired by the presence of C3PO a Golden God couldn't defeat the Empire troops? Come one, they were outclassed from the start.
Meanwhile any arguments against ROTJ revolve around "lol Care bears are dumb".
Empire Strikes Back is not the best film. It is a movie about people flying away from things for 2 hours....there, I said it! Nothing happens in that film. It is a VERY good movie for a film where nothing happens, props to the director, but I stand by that statement.
Hrm, I would disagree with that characterization.
Empire is where Luke is forged into a Jedi. He goes from lucky plucky kid in the first flick, is put through hell in Empire, and emerges complete in RotJ. Han and Leia's relationship begins, Han's backstory is fleshed out, Vader's place is revealed, etc. They fight Wompas, Stormtroopers, Vader, Space Worms, their own fears, ATAT's, etc.
Lots of stuff happens in that flick, including a ton of the character development. It's the story of how Luke becomes a Jedi.
Whatever else one may feel about Star Wars as a franchise, Empire absolutely is not just people running away for 2 hours.
The very first scene of that film is a Probe Droid flying away from a Star Destroyer.
The very last scene of the film is the rebel fleet flying off into the distance (after watching the Millenium Falcon fly away from the Rebel fleet as well.
Everything in the middle of the movie is people flying away from stuff, whether that be more Star Destroyers, Tie Fighters, Giant space Monsters, Star Destroyers again etc...
Now I do not say this to disparage the film or anything like that. As I said, I like love Star wars and will watch it over and over and never be bored. The reason I say this critique is that those gatekeeping Star Wars fans who like to dump on all things Star Wars always have the same refrain. "Really the only good Star wars movie is the Empire Strikes back. Everything else is either kiddy or not well made." (aka the prequels).
So I always like to highlight the fact ESB is not the godly movie they seem to think. Much like how Randall gave his little rant in Clerks 2 about how the Lord of the Rings movies are just a series of films of people walking for 3 hours. ESB is just a film of people flying away from stuff for 2 hours.
And don't get me started on peoples opinions of Return of The Jedi. I'll admit that it is by far my favorite Star wars film, so I am 100% biased when I say this, but I will defend that film to the death. Especially as I find the majority of the critiques lazy and overly hung up on the Ewoks.
Seriously, do you honestly believe that a native population, with superior tactical knowledge of the terrain, with pre-planned ambushes and hit and run guerrilla tactics, superior camouflage and inspired by the presence of C3PO a Golden God couldn't defeat the Empire troops? Come one, they were outclassed from the start.
Meanwhile any arguments against ROTJ revolve around "lol Care bears are dumb".
Indeed. I'd venture to say you care more about the story arch than anything else. I am much the same way and ROTJ and TPM (which gets trashed a lot for what I think are unfair reasons). I don't care that Jar Jar binks is stupid. It doesn't ruin the film for me though I more or less just day dream a bit about how awesome watching darthmaul and Obiwan fight in some kind of cloud city esq setting will be and boom - Im there in no time and loving it. I mean heck...Jhin and Obi are really annoyed by him too...That is kind of the point of him. ROTJ though is incredible. It is the epic clash of good and evil and not only does good win out (which everyone should love) Good converts evil to good. There is literally nothing better than that.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: Seriously, do you honestly believe that a native population, with superior tactical knowledge of the terrain, with pre-planned ambushes and hit and run guerrilla tactics, superior camouflage and inspired by the presence of C3PO a Golden God couldn't defeat the Empire troops? Come one, they were outclassed from the start.
who directs the LEGO movies/series - they should get them to do the next live action film
They already got them to do one - Solo. It was turning into a dumpster fire, so they were fired and replaced with Ron Howard.
Which sucks since they then went on to make "Into the Spiderverse", which even I'll admit is probably the best Spider-man film ever made, and won an Oscar.
So I guess well never know if Disney was wrong to dump them from the project or not.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: Seriously, do you honestly believe that a native population, with superior tactical knowledge of the terrain, with pre-planned ambushes and hit and run guerrilla tactics, superior camouflage and inspired by the presence of C3PO a Golden God couldn't defeat the Empire troops? Come one, they were outclassed from the start.
This is satire, right?
That depends...cause the ewoks did actually beat the imperial troops. Not without great loss though...it saddens me to see dying care bears. Right in the feels.
who directs the LEGO movies/series - they should get them to do the next live action film
They already got them to do one - Solo. It was turning into a dumpster fire, so they were fired and replaced with Ron Howard.
Solo also gets a lot of unjust hate. The film was enjoyable. Had a starwars feel. It just didn't go as deep as some people wanted. It felt more like a series episode than the documentary of solos life. I liked it though. I got everything out of it I expected from a starwars sidefilm. Ill tell you who they need to get to make the next film though. That team that did that sick darthmaul fan film. Just hire those guys/girls. Pay a professional director and film crew to get the job done. That would be epic.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: Seriously, do you honestly believe that a native population, with superior tactical knowledge of the terrain, with pre-planned ambushes and hit and run guerrilla tactics, superior camouflage and inspired by the presence of C3PO a Golden God couldn't defeat the Empire troops? Come one, they were outclassed from the start.
This is satire, right?
Not at all.
Yes I know what your going to say as I've heard it 1000 times before. "They were the Empires Elite troops!!!"
Seriously? It isn't a video game. "Elite" soldiers do not have a better stat blocks that are super-dee-dooper better than other people. They have training that allows them to drill in automated responses to certain situations and physical conditioning to keep moving and stay alive.
Ewoks popped up, let lose some arrows and then faded into the woods.
The Storm Trooper chased after them....into traps the Ewoks had already setup for them.
Why did the Ewoks only do this now? I can easily imagine the young warriors of the tribe wanted to attack "the strange white clad demons" who had invaded their home and built those strange stone and Iron buildings. No doubt several members of the tribe had been gunned down for fun by Empire scout troops.
The Young warriors wanted to fight
The elders told them to wait...wait for a sign from the gods.
and then a Golden God appears with strange companions, similar in height and stature as those white clad devils who kill for sport.
They ask where the stone and Iron building are...they find out they are going to make war on the invaders that have so harmed the Ewok tribe and invaded their home.
With that the Elders have their sign from the heavens, and all the preparations they allowed the young warriors to ready as they awaited the sign from the gods to arrive
Now I just feel it necessary to point out that the only attempt to derail this thread and all the negative vibes man, seem to be coming from the 3 people who like the dead weight from the middle of the new trilogy.
Seriously even ignoring that it was a Star Wars movie TLJ is a terrible movie. Starting from bollocks like not understanding gravity or space, to spending a huge chunk of a dull movie chasing a mcguffin in a number of dull scenes annnnndd you know what i’m not going to bother going through the very long list of things that make the movie gak before you even get to the Star Wars stuff. But a short list includes the pacing,script,casting,directing and editing.
I will also say that given all the stick jar-jar got including accusations of racism, that given this movie effectively turns Finn into a human Jar-Jar binks it gets away lightly.
As for Star Wars related issues that basically comes down to it seeming like it was made by someone who had never seen or read a Star Wars movie or book and who actually hated Star Wars.
I mean when your multi million dollar movie trilogy is worse than your Saturday morning cartoon show and Lego Star Wars you should probably rethink your strategy.
Yes, but I really don't care about the current film trilogy at this point. Super manipulator Palpatine screwing everyone from beyond the grave killed all interest I had in the next film, so I'm just waiting to see what other Story film comes out next, or what the next trilogy will be like and if it interests me.
who directs the LEGO movies/series - they should get them to do the next live action film
They already got them to do one - Solo. It was turning into a dumpster fire, so they were fired and replaced with Ron Howard.
Which sucks since they then went on to make "Into the Spiderverse", which even I'll admit is probably the best Spider-man film ever made, and won an Oscar.
So I guess well never know if Disney was wrong to dump them from the project or not.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: Seriously, do you honestly believe that a native population, with superior tactical knowledge of the terrain, with pre-planned ambushes and hit and run guerrilla tactics, superior camouflage and inspired by the presence of C3PO a Golden God couldn't defeat the Empire troops? Come one, they were outclassed from the start.
This is satire, right?
Not at all.
Yes I know what your going to say as I've heard it 1000 times before. "They were the Empires Elite troops!!!"
Seriously? It isn't a video game. "Elite" soldiers do not have a better stat blocks that are super-dee-dooper better than other people. They have training that allows them to drill in automated responses to certain situations and physical conditioning to keep moving and stay alive.
Ewoks popped up, let lose some arrows and then faded into the woods.
The Storm Trooper chased after them....into traps the Ewoks had already setup for them.
Why did the Ewoks only do this now? I can easily imagine the young warriors of the tribe wanted to attack "the strange white clad demons" who had invaded their home and built those strange stone and Iron buildings. No doubt several members of the tribe had been gunned down for fun by Empire scout troops.
The Young warriors wanted to fight
The elders told them to wait...wait for a sign from the gods.
and then a Golden God appears with strange companions, similar in height and stature as those white clad devils who kill for sport.
They ask where the stone and Iron building are...they find out they are going to make war on the invaders that have so harmed the Ewok tribe and invaded their home.
With that the Elders have their sign from the heavens, and all the preparations they allowed the young warriors to ready as they awaited the sign from the gods to arrive
and the Ewoks went to war.
How does that not make sense?
Yeah I mean it’s not like a poorly equipped force defending there home territory from a highly trained and well equipped army has ever gone poorly for the aggressor has it
Xenomancers wrote: Solo also gets a lot of unjust hate. The film was enjoyable. Had a starwars feel. It just didn't go as deep as some people wanted. It felt more like a series episode than the documentary of solos life. I liked it though. I got everything out of it I expected from a starwars sidefilm..
Absolutely - I enjoyed it far more than I expected to, and I wouldn't hate it if they chose to still do movies 2 and 3, as unlikely as that seems at this point. The end product, though, was Ron Howard's toning down, as Miller and Lord supposedly went too far over the top with trying to make Solo a funny character.
It suffered more from all the bad press around the production issues, blowback from TLJ, and then a chronic lack of promotion than from issues with the movie itself.
Well, to answer the question in the title of the topic- of course someone still does. Not me, though. Maybe it’s for the best, that the “hype” for Star Wars is somewhat dying out- maybe Marvel/superhero fatigue will be born one day as well. Those will be the days!
We might even stop getting Disney 3D reimaginings of classic cartoons.. and finally something fresh, new and inspiring will be on the big screen once again.
It's a fine movie. My main issue with it is that its going out of its way to drop in every offhand reference is possibly can into a single crazy adventure and constantly gets caught up name dropping obscure details no one really cares about. It reminds me of the Edward Norton Hulk movie, where it feels like the story keeps pausing to make sure the audience caught the reference. It's far from a bad film, but its the kind of pandering deep lore obsessed nonsense I felt the old EU eventually took way too far.
Empire Strikes Back is not the best film. It is a movie about people flying away from things for 2 hours....there, I said it! Nothing happens in that film. It is a VERY good movie for a film where nothing happens, props to the director, but I stand by that statement.
Hrm, I would disagree with that characterization.
Empire is where Luke is forged into a Jedi. He goes from lucky plucky kid in the first flick, is put through hell in Empire, and emerges complete in RotJ. Han and Leia's relationship begins, Han's backstory is fleshed out, Vader's place is revealed, etc. They fight Wompas, Stormtroopers, Vader, Space Worms, their own fears, ATAT's, etc.
Lots of stuff happens in that flick, including a ton of the character development. It's the story of how Luke becomes a Jedi.
Whatever else one may feel about Star Wars as a franchise, Empire absolutely is not just people running away for 2 hours.
The very first scene of that film is a Probe Droid flying away from a Star Destroyer.
The very last scene of the film is the rebel fleet flying off into the distance (after watching the Millenium Falcon fly away from the Rebel fleet as well.
Everything in the middle of the movie is people flying away from stuff, whether that be more Star Destroyers, Tie Fighters, Giant space Monsters, Star Destroyers again etc...
By the same token, so is basically the entire first movie. It starts trying to run from a Star Destroyer, then they run away from Vader, then they run away from Tusken Raiders, then its sneaking away from Stormtroopers into space, then they get chased by TIE fighters, they have to run away from the Death Star and escape, then after destroying the Death Star they end up running away to a new base by the next flick
Now I do not say this to disparage the film or anything like that. As I said, I like love Star wars and will watch it over and over and never be bored. The reason I say this critique is that those gatekeeping Star Wars fans who like to dump on all things Star Wars always have the same refrain. "Really the only good Star wars movie is the Empire Strikes back. Everything else is either kiddy or not well made." (aka the prequels).
So I always like to highlight the fact ESB is not the godly movie they seem to think. Much like how Randall gave his little rant in Clerks 2 about how the Lord of the Rings movies are just a series of films of people walking for 3 hours. ESB is just a film of people flying away from stuff for 2 hours.
I mean, only in as much as the others are. They have several notable confrontations, often intentional, and numerous characters changing their plans to come actively help others, it's not just them running away all the time. There are fair criticisms of it and its place, but I dont think that particular critique is quite accurate. They do run away, its the Empire's turn to strike back after all, but they do other stuff as well.
And don't get me started on peoples opinions of Return of The Jedi. I'll admit that it is by far my favorite Star wars film, so I am 100% biased when I say this, but I will defend that film to the death. Especially as I find the majority of the critiques lazy and overly hung up on the Ewoks.
Barring the Ewoks, I dont have much of a beef with ROTJ, and even the ewoks don't ruin the flick for me.
Seriously, do you honestly believe that a native population, with superior tactical knowledge of the terrain, with pre-planned ambushes and hit and run guerrilla tactics, superior camouflage and inspired by the presence of C3PO a Golden God couldn't defeat the Empire troops? Come one, they were outclassed from the start.
Had they been Wookies it would have been far more believable.
Three foot tall dudes with spears that wouldn't penetrate my HEMA gambeson is...harder to sustain that suspension of disbelief.
Putting things in context, the Imperial forces on Endor were some of the best Imperial troops according to the Emperor, with armored support, automatic weapons, complete air and space supremacy, orbital surveillance, engaged around an installation they built with significant infrastructure. The ewoks, as portrayed, defeating that sort of force is difficult to take seriously.
Maybe defeating a small scout party? Ok, that's buyable. Knocking off random scout troopers on speeders? Sure.
But an entire legion with an intact command and communications to space? In what amounts to a pitched battle after the Imperial forces sprang their own carefully planned ambush? Not so much. Much like today I wouldnt buy a story about spear wielding dwarfs defeating a US marine expeditionary force with a carrier battlegroup sitting off shore.
That said, it doesn't ruint ROTJ for me, I'm still a big fan of that movie as a whole, I had the ewok village playset as a kid, and I don't go around making a huge deal of it, but I think it's a perfectly fair criticize the ewoks.
Overall, I think there is also an element of time and place, in the early 80's, that sort of thing just worked better than it does now, same way half of Doctor Who was amazing in the 60's or 70s but now often looks like total garbage because the medium has evolved so much and tastes have changed.
Solo also gets a lot of unjust hate. The film was enjoyable. Had a starwars feel. It just didn't go as deep as some people wanted. It felt more like a series episode than the documentary of solos life. I liked it though. I got everything out of it I expected from a starwars sidefilm. Ill tell you who they need to get to make the next film though. That team that did that sick darthmaul fan film. Just hire those guys/girls. Pay a professional director and film crew to get the job done. That would be epic.
For me the problem with Solo is that they basically try to stuff literally every event of importance on his life into one adventure over a couple of weeks, and all at a scale that would appear to match his later (ostensibly greater) adventures, and it all happens with a character that looks significantly younger than his ANH incarnation but takes place almost immediately beforehand (and with seemingly little time for his reputatiin to get around).
Were it taken on its own, without connection to a larger story, I wouldn't have any problems with the movie, and on its own its pretty solid, but its the connection to the larger story that puts it out of place for me.
Vaktathi wrote: ... and it all happens with a character that looks significantly younger than his ANH incarnation but takes place almost immediately beforehand (and with seemingly little time for his reputatiin to get around)..
There are 10 years between the end of Solo and the start of ANH. They had to leave time for the other two movies they had originally planned...
Vaktathi wrote: ... and it all happens with a character that looks significantly younger than his ANH incarnation but takes place almost immediately beforehand (and with seemingly little time for his reputatiin to get around)..
There are 10 years between the end of Solo and the start of ANH. They had to leave time for the other two movies they had originally planned...
its been a bit since I saw the flick, but didn't they immediately fly off to Tatooine to start working for Jabba? I was under the impression that was relatively close to ANH, or did every major event in Han's life before ANH happen in a couple crazy weeks as a teenager?
Three foot tall dudes with spears that wouldn't penetrate my HEMA gambeson is...harder to sustain that suspension of disbelief.
Putting things in context, the Imperial forces on Endor were some of the best Imperial troops according to the Emperor, with armored support, automatic weapons, complete air and space supremacy, orbital surveillance, engaged around an installation they built with significant infrastructure. The ewoks, as portrayed, defeating that sort of force is difficult to take seriously.
Maybe defeating a small scout party? Ok, that's buyable. Knocking off random scout troopers on speeders? Sure.
But an entire legion with an intact command and communications to space? In what amounts to a pitched battle after the Imperial forces sprang their own carefully planned ambush? Not so much. Much like today I wouldnt buy a story about spear wielding dwarfs defeating a US marine expeditionary force with a carrier battlegroup sitting off shore.
That said, it doesn't ruint ROTJ for me, I'm still a big fan of that movie as a whole, I had the ewok village playset as a kid, and I don't go around making a huge deal of it, but I think it's a perfectly fair criticize the ewoks.
Overall, I think there is also an element of time and place, in the early 80's, that sort of thing just worked better than it does now, same way half of Doctor Who was amazing in the 60's or 70s but now often looks like total garbage because the medium has evolved so much and tastes have changed.
Again, your falling into the trap that "Dumb care Bears Suck."
a Chimpanzee is 3 feet tall but Twice as strong as a Human. Ewoks are Aliens on an an alien world. They are communal species who hunt much like early humans. They are not "3 foot care bears" they are the Apex predator on Endor. What they lack in physical prowess or height they make up for by being an intelligent species. Too just to dismiss that is silly.
The Imperial Forces setup an ambush. They new the Rebels were coming and were only expecting a small infiltration team. Yeah, a Legion of the Emperors finest were on the planet but they were not ALL at the back entrance. You saw how many there were when Han and the other rebel commandos were led out with their hands over their head. That was all that was there, not 8000 odd Imperial soldiers that makes up a Galactic Empire Legion. There were what? 3 maybe 4 Platoons actually at that battle.
The only ground support they had were AT-ST's (and I guess the speeders too) and they were definitely not made for that terrain. The troops were over confident because they only expected 12 guys. When The Ewoks attacked they were thrown for a loop, but hey it's only the locals right? Bows and arrows against armored troops so they take off after the Ewoks as they fade into the forest. Are the Imperials engaging in combat on their terms? No, they are headed into traps. The platoons were split up, isolated, and individually overwhelmed by superior numbers.
Air support? Not when there is a massive Star Ship battle happening in orbit there isn't. Even if there was how are they going to hit anything without taking out their own scattered troops?
Communications? When earlier in the film we see the Rebels having trouble getting in touch with Leia after they were separated and R2D2 not able to do it either because of the denseness of the trees blocking communication.
So we have:
No Air Support
Limited to no Armour support due to the Terrain
Lack of unit Cohesion due to the Hit and Run Tactics
Loss of Communication due to Alien terrain
VS
Better Knowledge of the surrounding terrain
Prepared defenses and Ambush Points
Local numerical superiority
Higher Moral due to believing they were fighting to assist a Golden God
This is no different then the British defeat at the Battle of Isandlwana
The Imperial Troops were Outclassed by the Ewoks from the start
Three foot tall dudes with spears that wouldn't penetrate my HEMA gambeson is...harder to sustain that suspension of disbelief.
Putting things in context, the Imperial forces on Endor were some of the best Imperial troops according to the Emperor, with armored support, automatic weapons, complete air and space supremacy, orbital surveillance, engaged around an installation they built with significant infrastructure. The ewoks, as portrayed, defeating that sort of force is difficult to take seriously.
Maybe defeating a small scout party? Ok, that's buyable. Knocking off random scout troopers on speeders? Sure.
But an entire legion with an intact command and communications to space? In what amounts to a pitched battle after the Imperial forces sprang their own carefully planned ambush? Not so much. Much like today I wouldnt buy a story about spear wielding dwarfs defeating a US marine expeditionary force with a carrier battlegroup sitting off shore.
That said, it doesn't ruint ROTJ for me, I'm still a big fan of that movie as a whole, I had the ewok village playset as a kid, and I don't go around making a huge deal of it, but I think it's a perfectly fair criticize the ewoks.
Overall, I think there is also an element of time and place, in the early 80's, that sort of thing just worked better than it does now, same way half of Doctor Who was amazing in the 60's or 70s but now often looks like total garbage because the medium has evolved so much and tastes have changed.
Again, your falling into the trap that "Dumb care Bears Suck."
Because that's how they appear and are portrayed mostly within the film.
That said, I didn't call them "care bears" at any point, I called attention to physical differences and armament issues, these are not the same thing.
a Chimpanzee is 3 feet tall but Twice as strong as a Human.
And they're an endangered species numbering a few thousand because simply coexisting with humans is killing them, much less engaging in active combat with humans.
Ewoks are Aliens on an an alien world. They are communal species who hunt much like early humans. They are not "3 foot care bears" they are the Apex predator on Endor. What they lack in physical prowess or height they make up for by being an intelligent species. Too just to dismiss that is silly.
They might be the apex predator on Endor. That doesn't mean much in and of itself, invasive species effortlessly displace such with regularity these days. They can be intelligent and cunning and brutal, but that only goes so far. Humans aren't exactly stupid either.
I'm not trying to dismiss the Ewoks outright, but by any comparison to any event in reality, there's not much basis for their victory there. Even within the same species, such as with humans, tech and logistics can be absolutely insurmountable advantages.
One can look to places like Afghanistan, where people often live lives unchanged from hundreds of years ago an intimately know the land, sometimes armed with ancient jezzails or modern assault riflles, yet any time battle is really joined woth foreign military unita there's no contest. Casualties may be inflicted, but no guerilla force there is defeating entire platoons or companies of western military forces.
The Imperial Forces setup an ambush. They new the Rebels were coming and were only expecting a small infiltration team. Yeah, a Legion of the Emperors finest were on the planet but they were not ALL at the back entrance. You saw how many there were when Han and the other rebel commandos were led out with their hands over their head. That was all that was there, not 8000 odd Imperial soldiers that makes up a Galactic Empire Legion. There were what? 3 maybe 4 Platoons actually at that battle.
Even if we accept that, it's a company or two with armor support, radio communications, no barriers to reinforcement arrival from elsewhere on the planet, access to air transport, orbital surveillance, etc.
Likewise, thos other troops arent *that* far, they have Speeders, shuttles, other walkers, etc that could respond likely within minutes, particularly when everyone should already be on alert and active combat operations are in progress both on the ground and in orbit.
A village of ewoks should pose no problem to such a force. Its not like the Ewoks were a particularly numerous people either.
The only ground support they had were AT-ST's (and I guess the speeders too) and they were definitely not made for that terrain.
The All Terrain part of ATST must have been a misnomer
More to the point, a couple of logs arent gonna implode an armored vehicle today, much less a highly advanced futuristic one.
The speeders seemed to work fine most of the time (and half the gimmicks used to take them out either relied on the pilots engagin in stupid behavior or incredible luck), and the ewoks otherwise largely seemed to fear them.
The troops were over confident because they only expected 12 guys. When The Ewoks attacked they were thrown for a loop, but hey it's only the locals right? Bows and arrows against armored troops so they take off after the Ewoks as they fade into the forest. Are the Imperials engaging in combat on their terms? No, they are headed into traps. The platoons were split up, isolated, and individually overwhelmed by superior numbers.
Most of which was monstrously unconvincing (part of why people have problems with the segment), and which doesn't make sense in the context of troops with weapons largely akin to those of modern assault rifles and a modicum of discipline and communications capability. This basically relies on the Imperial forces having the discipline and command ability of total idiots and superior firepower counting for almost nothing.
Air support? Not when there is a massive Star Ship battle happening in orbit there isn't.
This assumes that no assets in orbit can support the planet and that literally everything is engaging the rebel fleet (which makes no sense in any military operation) and that no such assets are already on the planet.
To look to a modern example, a carrier battle group can engage in both fleet actions and ground support operations simultaneously, I see no reason why a fleet of star destroyers and a death star with overwhelming naval superiority could not.
Even if there was how are they going to hit anything without taking out their own scattered troops?
Modern military forces with a fraction of the technology manage this, or can at least reform their forces to enable it in short order.
Communications? When earlier in the film we see the Rebels having trouble getting in touch with Leia after they were separated and R2D2 not able to do it either because of the denseness of the trees blocking communication.
what afflicts a small commando team behind enemy lines in unfamiliar territory, and what afflicts a major military installation with thousands of troops on the ground in an invested area and multiple armored vehicles and orbital communications are very different things.
So we have:
No Air Support
Limited to no Armour support due to the Terrain
Lack of unit Cohesion due to the Hit and Run Tactics
Loss of Communication due to Alien terrain
VS
Better Knowledge of the surrounding terrain
Prepared defenses and Ambush Points
Local numerical superiority
Higher Moral due to believing they were fighting to assist a Golden God
This is no different then the British defeat at the Battle of Isandlwana
The Imperial Troops were Outclassed by the Ewoks from the start
Overall, while individual points may be arguable, there are far too many that require far too many exceptions to be convincing. There's just way too much that only works if you accept a ludicrous level of negligence and incompetence on the part of the Imperial forces.
Had it been giant wookies with energy weapon bowcasters, a lot of these issues disappear, enough at least to sustain the suspension of disbelief.
No Air Support
Limited to no Armour support due to the Terrain
Lack of unit Cohesion due to the Hit and Run Tactics
Loss of Communication due to Alien terrain
VS
Better Knowledge of the surrounding terrain
Prepared defenses and Ambush Points
Local numerical superiority
Higher Moral due to believing they were fighting to assist a Golden God
This is no different then the British defeat at the Battle of Isandlwana
The Imperial Troops were Outclassed by the Ewoks from the start
Yeah, no. All of that is wrong.
Lack of air support was a director/writer's choice thing. The Empire has Tie Bombers, and they were in the previous film. They just weren't used, and would have been pretty useless in the space battle. Pull back to the doors, firebomb the trees they don't in any way care about and call it a day.
They had armor (AT-STs and AT-ATs nearby). It was just magically vulnerable to wood and small rocks, and in the latter case, not deployed.
They weren't doing much hit and run. They somehow built placed traps out of wood and logs AND had catapults nearby (which are useless in hit and run) all of which were many times their own size, all set up in the next clearing over without detection.
Lost communication is assumption. They were fighting outside their own base, and had no problems signalling for troops to deploy and for reinforcements to hunt the rebels down. The rebels were using radio(ish) backpacks that could have easily been blocked by terrain. The Imps were merely yards outside their base and had ships in orbit to relay signals.
Local terrain knowledge- again they were outside their own door of their significantly large base, that had been there long enough to support a moon sized orbital structure. The idea that with dedicated scout units, the adjacent terrain is unfamiliar is flatly absurd.
Prepared defenses and ambush points, which... begs the question of how. All the Empire had to do was defend a bunker door. And why they didn't have their own prepared defenses and ambush points, what with the several patrols and walls to put turrets on.
Local numeric superiority- nonsense. However many stone age hunter-gatherers there were, they didn't match the numbers of "an entire legion" (of crack troops with a huge tech advantage)
'Higher morale' would have been easily countered by fear of machines and boom sticks. Especially since they showed they Ewoks getting dismayed and broken several times.
There are always those people who root for the bad guys in the starwars universe. That is fine. Don't let that fandom sway you away from the logic of indigenous people winning a battle via guerrilla tactics. It actually advantage ewoks in this scenario.
Anyways I guess the answer is I do still care about starwars...I am just not interested in the new story arc.
LordofHats wrote: Yes, but I really don't care about the current film trilogy at this point. Super manipulator Palpatine screwing everyone from beyond the grave killed all interest I had in the next film,
That actually is one of the few elements that interest me. That and the irony of the 'kill the past, no legacy, blah blah blah', And the new film is basically: No, shut up, it actually is All About the Skywalkers. That's freaking hilarious.
No Air Support
Limited to no Armour support due to the Terrain
Lack of unit Cohesion due to the Hit and Run Tactics
Loss of Communication due to Alien terrain
VS
Better Knowledge of the surrounding terrain
Prepared defenses and Ambush Points
Local numerical superiority
Higher Moral due to believing they were fighting to assist a Golden God
This is no different then the British defeat at the Battle of Isandlwana
The Imperial Troops were Outclassed by the Ewoks from the start
Yeah, no. All of that is wrong.
Lack of air support was a director/writer's choice thing. The Empire has Tie Bombers, and they were in the previous film. They just weren't used, and would have been pretty useless in the space battle.
They had armor (AT-STs and AT-ATs nearby). It was just magically vulnerable to wood and small rocks, and in the latter case, not deployed.
They weren't doing much hit and run. They somehow built placed traps out of wood and logs AND had catapults nearby (which are useless in hit and run) all of which were many times their own size, all set up in the next clearing over without detection.
Lost communication is assumption. They were fighting outside their own base, and had no problems signalling for troops to deploy and for reinforcements to hunt the rebels down. The rebels were using radio(ish) backpacks that could have easily been blocked by terrain. The Imps were merely yards outside their base and had ships in orbit to relay signals.
Local terrain knowledge- again they were outside their own door of their significantly large base, that had been there long enough to support a moon sized orbital structure. The idea that with dedicated scout units, the adjacent terrain is unfamiliar is flatly absurd.
Prepared defenses and ambush points, which... begs the question of how. All the Empire had to do was defend a bunker door. And why they didn't have their own prepared defenses and ambush points, what with the several patrols and walls to put turrets on.
Local numeric superiority- nonsense. However many stone age hunter-gatherers there were, they didn't match the numbers of "an entire legion" (of crack troops with a huge tech advantage)
'Higher morale' would have been easily countered by fear of machines and boom sticks. Especially since they showed they Ewoks getting dismayed and broken several times.
It was looking pretty bad for the ewoks until Han and chewy Commandeered an atst. They basically broke them with that. Terrain was not feasible to deploy ATAT and this all probably happened in a matter of minutes. Not enough time to call air support. Plus it wouldn't have made a difference in a wooded area. They wouldn't have had targets. The emperor was overconfident in the film. He allowed luke to reach the planet(moon) so he could be brought in by Vader because he wanted a new apprentice. Its kind of the theme of the movie. Overconfidence can be your undoing.
For the current Trilogy of Star Wars movies yeah it's too late. Are the side stories going to be any decent if any are made? Yeah i think some will. I still like Rogue One despite some disliking it. I'm actually surprised by that. I mean it actually told us how they got the Death Star plans and Jedi or Sith aren't the main focus. Rogue One is about the only movie that redeemed my hope in the new Star Wars movies before Last Jedi crushed it.
flamingkillamajig wrote: For the current Trilogy of Star Wars movies yeah it's too late. Are the side stories going to be any decent if any are made? Yeah i think some will. I still like Rogue One despite some disliking it. I'm actually surprised by that. I mean it actually told us how they got the Death Star plans and Jedi or Sith aren't the main focus. Rogue One is about the only movie that redeemed my hope in the new Star Wars movies before Last Jedi crushed it.
Rouge one is a fantastic movie. One of the best SW films IMO.
Meh, I enjoyed TFA. Despite its obvious flaws, it was fun.
I enjoyed TLJ. Again, it's not perfect, but it was fun, and I could watch Mark Hamill being cranky old man Luke forever.
And yes, I'm looking forward to the Rise of Skywalker, because I'm really curious to see where they go with it, and because it's likely to be fun, even if it turns out to be as full of holes as TFA.
I also enjoyed the hell out of Solo and Rogue One, and am looking forward to the Mandalorian.
Mind you, some of my current enthusiasm for Star Wars is fueled by having a daughter who's just starting to be interested as well... She's not ready for the movies yet, but we're enjoying starting out exploring the galaxy.
Vaktathi wrote: 'dat Vader scene in Rogue One..the whole movie was worth it just for that.
*That's* a proper villain.
Agreed. The soldiers look confused at first about who he is and what they're fighting like some unknown. Then it quickly turns to horror like darth vader is some horror movie villain. The rebels know they're screwed and just hand off the plans to the guys outside looking desperate the whole time. They know they can't get away and will die but know what they must do.
Starwars has always been dumb. often dumb fun but dumb all the same. Il watch the next dumb fun entry like I watched the previous ones. Except the prequels were not fun. They were just terrible and dumb.
Ok, this may end up being a long post, as I have a thought I want to unpack.
I think the real problem with Star Wars doesn’t start with the current films, it goes right back to the original trilogy; they’ve never satisfactorily shown why the Empire is bad. Other than the Death Star, which few people in the galaxy ever knew about, the original films, the prequels and TFA rely on just using general Nazi symbology (jack boots, stormtroopers, etc.) to point at the Empire and go “these are bad guys, boo now”.
Right at the start, Luke says he hates the empire, of course he does, but why? Did they kill his friends? Take his land? Suppress his religion? The film and all subsequent sequels never explain. The prequels have the “overthrowing democracy” thread, but it’s clumsy and, again, doesn’t show the bad things that the Empire is doing, other than the terrible, terrible, Order 66 montage.
Rogue One is the first time we see them occupying a planet, oppressing people and generally earning the right to be hated. TLJ follows it up with the casino section, but that seems very tacked on, tangential to the main plot (and fundamentally a bit too pointedly related to current, real world politics).
And that’s a real problem with the current films, because the Rebellion won. The end of RotJ, particularly in the special editions, is very explicit that the when the Rebellion destroyed the Death Star and killed the Emperor, the people rose up and overthrew the whole Empire, with the implication of return to the Republic. So where is the New Republic? Why are Leia and the gang running round as the Resistance, even more poorly equipped than when they were fighting the Empire? Where did the First Order come from? These issues undermine all of the new films, because no matter what shiny cool stuff you slap on screen, it’s undermined by a massive narrative hole underneath.
That’s why, despite the fact I generally enjoyed both TFA and TLJ (with a few specific technical gripes in both, that I won’t go into here), I don’t really care about Star Wars at the moment, because it doesn’t really mean anything at the moment.
They could fix this by adding that darker edge and more plausible plot objectives, as per Rogue One, but I fear that they’ve missed the boat. The prequels should have dedicated probably an entire film to Darth Vader hunting down the Jedi, rather than a few minutes of Deus Ex Machina. Somewhere we should have seen/heard about Tarkin landing a Victory star destroyer on top of a food riot. Etcetera, etc. These are the things that make the Empire a real, visceral, enemy and without that, you don’t really care about the fight to defeat them.
Lance845 wrote: Starwars has always been dumb. often dumb fun but dumb all the same. Il watch the next dumb fun entry like I watched the previous ones. Except the prequels were not fun. They were just terrible and dumb.
I wanted to do that - watch a fun enjoyable fim/s
The original films were good fun
The prequals were crap but had occassional fun bits
The Force Awakens was fun, not great but there did seem to be a return to fun
Lego series and Movies are great fun
Clone Wars are often fun
Rogue One started badly but he second half was great fun
Then TLJ shambled stupidly into the room, shedding the rancid gak it was made from and stinking to high heaven - fun was lost.
Solo was good fun but was tainted by the lingering stench of TLJ
Maybe the future films willl banish the smell, maybe not.
LordofHats wrote: Yes, but I really don't care about the current film trilogy at this point. Super manipulator Palpatine screwing everyone from beyond the grave killed all interest I had in the next film,
That actually is one of the few elements that interest me. That and the irony of the 'kill the past, no legacy, blah blah blah', And the new film is basically: No, shut up, it actually is All About the Skywalkers. That's freaking hilarious.
I do find it odd that people keep pointing to that as the message pf TLJ, when only person saying "let the past die" is the Bad Guy? It's not the message of the film, just a ploy used by Kylo to a) come to terms with his own atrocities and b) try and turn Rey away from the legacy of the Jedi. When you consider how the film actually ends, the message is really that legacy, history and the people we leave behind *are* vitally important to triumphing over evil. Or in other words, "The Rebellion is reborn again today, the war is just beginning , and I will not be the last Jedi."
If there's a message to any film, it's probably in what the heroes are preaching rather than the villains.
LordofHats wrote: Yes, but I really don't care about the current film trilogy at this point. Super manipulator Palpatine screwing everyone from beyond the grave killed all interest I had in the next film,
That actually is one of the few elements that interest me. That and the irony of the 'kill the past, no legacy, blah blah blah', And the new film is basically: No, shut up, it actually is All About the Skywalkers. That's freaking hilarious.
I do find it odd that people keep pointing to that as the message pf TLJ, when only person saying "let the past die" is the Bad Guy? It's not the message of the film, just a ploy used by Kylo to a) come to terms with his own atrocities and b) try and turn Rey away from the legacy of the Jedi. When you consider how the film actually ends, the message is really that legacy, history and the people we leave behind *are* vitally important to triumphing over evil. Or in other words, "The Rebellion is reborn again today, the war is just beginning , and I will not be the last Jedi."
If there's a message to any film, it's probably in what the heroes are preaching rather than the villains.
Luke is also running away which in the hands of a even barely competant director might have been interesting.
There is also some awfully crammed in nonsense about the Rebellion and the First Orde being the same as they "Both buy weapons" shock horror, sooo Edgy dude!
Oh and suicide is good, but its not if "you" do it, oh its good again if "She" does it, oh its bad again.
The main people they leave behind are the slave children who they ignore in favour of space horses
If there's a message to any film, it's probably in what the heroes are preaching rather than the villains.
I don't really care about the message. I just really really really hate that plot point.
Disney had a chance to reinvent the wheel. To undo all the stupid gak from the old EU, keep the cream of the crop, and produce something better. They were the chosen one, meant to restore balance to Star Wars and make it great again after years of Lucas gaking all over it, and fans bitterly ripping into each other over which petty awful plotline was better than the rest. And instead Disney just revive what is easily the old EU's worst recurring plot point; the Emperor screwing everyone over from beyond the grave, which happened like 50 freaking times and is basically bad fanfiction at this point. I have zero interest in that playing out again, least of all with all the original characters dead, their lives basically amounting to very little, and the narrative just feeling detached and unwieldy.
I don't care about the message.
The plot was dangling by a thread after the contrived events of TLJ, and Disney seems to be falling back on the old EU's worst habits as a saving throw.
Star Wars needed a trilogy about Rogue Squadron stopping Isard, not reinventing the original trilogy. Heroic space fighter pilots, jedi family legacy done in an interesting way that's not just Skywalker all the time, and epic space battles culminating with Super Star Destroyers on both sides duking it out.
Either than or the Thrawn Trilogy, just placed longer after the Originals to justify the actors being older.
the last movie put me off on the new one coming out, I have no interest in seeing it.
Saw a horrible fan theory that will probably end up being the final movie. as the rebellion is over and utterly crushed, the only thing left for them is a time travel story to put the universe in order. it worked for the mcu, it must work for star wars as well.
Plus if I don't see it, then I don't have to worry about being insulted and told what a horrible person I am for not like a horrible story.
I think the problem is that Star Wars as a movie universe is just shallow. You cant do much with it for it to BE Star Wars.
That’s why we get either crap which fans hate, because it “ruins canon” or we get the same rebooted tropes.
It was a nice trilogy, which should’ve stayed that way - a trilogy.
Now we get four year olds in Jedi academies(because Yoda said, that Luke is too old to begin his training) horrible diologues, recycled or nonsensical plot and the origin of Han Solo’s socks.
And the crazy part is, we, the SW nerds love us some origin stories of Ping Lang's laser scroople from planet Geagsor as long we get to see Twin Ion Engine Fighters every 15 minutes.
And the original trilogy was not about that.
Lance845 wrote: Starwars has always been dumb. often dumb fun but dumb all the same. Il watch the next dumb fun entry like I watched the previous ones. Except the prequels were not fun. They were just terrible and dumb.
You can set your watch by it folks. "Star Wars has always been dumb." 'Star Wars was never that great."
Jadenim wrote: Ok, this may end up being a long post, as I have a thought I want to unpack.
I think the real problem with Star Wars doesn’t start with the current films, it goes right back to the original trilogy; they’ve never satisfactorily shown why the Empire is bad. Other than the Death Star, which few people in the galaxy ever knew about, the original films, the prequels and TFA rely on just using general Nazi symbology (jack boots, stormtroopers, etc.) to point at the Empire and go “these are bad guys, boo now”.
"The Emperor has dissolved the Senate."
bad guys.
*Guy dressed all in black force choking dudes in his own force for disrespecting him*
bad guys.
"We're gonna torture Princess Leia with our medical droid."
bad guys.
"You're far too trusting. Dantooine is too remote to make an effective demonstration - but don't worry; we will deal with your rebel friends soon enough."
bad guys.
(btw, this scene refutes your assertion the death star was relatively unknown)
*wreckage of salvager complete with corpses of Jawas.*
"Only Imperial Stormtroopers could be so precise (lol)."
bad guys.
*charred corpses of Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru*
bad guys.
That's all movie one my dude.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: As opposed to Qui Gon simply leaving Anakin’s mother in Slavery, and making no attempt whatsoever to enforce Republic Law?
"Look, I found something dumb from Star Wars that wasn't TLJ. That must mean all criticism of TLJ is dumb."
Scrabb wrote: *Guy dressed all in black force choking dudes in his own force for disrespecting him*
bad guys.
I can't deny, I read this in a shrilly Abriged Kirito (SAO Abridged) voice as "you just force choked a guy for mildly sassing you five minutes ago!"
That's all movie one my dude
He kind of has a point though. TFA and TLJ, somehow, have failed to establish meaningful stakes for the current plot. The struggle between the Resistance and the First Order feels like some kind of giant galactic aside that the rest of the galaxy doesn't care about, and I'm not really sure why that is. It's not like the OT showed us lots of daily life in the galaxy, but it felt like there were stakes for the galaxy at large in the conflict between the Empire and the Rebellion. The Resistance and the First Order feel like some sideshow that has no meaning to anyone else.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: As opposed to Qui Gon simply leaving Anakin’s mother in Slavery, and making no attempt whatsoever to enforce Republic Law?
Wait. which do you want? Saving his mother or enforcing Republic law on a planet outside of the Republic? lol.
If he freed the mother wouldn't he have to free all the rest of the slaves on the planet? Talk about a side quest.
He struck a bargain so that Anakin could be free, he barely did anything at all beyond that. At least nothing that could be pinned on him in the then and there. Even what he did was still trying to stay within his mandate, get the parts for the ship and leave. Anakin was saved but very well could have been left behind. Granted he made the conditions for Anakins release but just how much more could he have done.
Hell, the new trilogy explained it too, but for some reason I feel like the new trilogy feels like a disconnected conflict with unclear ramifications for everyone who isn't fighting it.
Neither TFA not TLJ explains anything about the Star War in question.
Of course, don’t forget the PT never explained the political cause of the CW either. The Republic invaded Geonosis because ... er, well, it was time for a big battle scene.
LordofHats wrote: Hell, the new trilogy explained it too, but for some reason I feel like the new trilogy feels like a disconnected conflict with unclear ramifications for everyone who isn't fighting it.
The new trilogy didn't really explain any of it, it just showed storm troopers and TIE fighters and star destroyers and expected you to understand that they're referring to the OT Empire. Hell, it's not until most of the way through the first movie that you even know that the resistance is only a tiny part of it and there's a whole intact Republic (much larger than the First Order even!) out there, so of course you're supposed to assume that the guys with the white armor must be the villains compared to whatever the Republic is doing.
Manchu wrote: They kill an unarmed prisoner in the first scene.
And the Republic appears to be fine with slavery, which I'd say is a greater evil.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, don't forget that the prisoner was a collaborator with an illegal terrorist group sponsored by a hostile foreign power.
I am not sure we have enough evidence to say the Republic is fine with slavery. But we know the FO is. FO storm troopers are obtained as children and programmed to serve.
I am not sure that the Resistance was an illegal or terrorist group, merely that the Republic disclaimed supporting them. But we know the FO considers the Resistance to be an arm of the Republic so they are enemy combatants, who generally are not supposed to be murdered upon capture. Because that is a villainous thing to do.
Hell, the new trilogy explained it too, but for some reason I feel like the new trilogy feels like a disconnected conflict with unclear ramifications for everyone who isn't fighting it.
I think thats very accurate - but since the TFA and TLJ are simply copying the first two films (very badly in the TLJ) I think it was assumed that the bad guys were well just the bad guys.
They new films do very very disconnected to anything - I think partly as the directors are simply not that interested or maybe they were worrid that doing so might turn out like the backstory (such as it was) for the prequals.I think the FA did get away with it a bit as it did revert to "hey its just jedi and snu fighters doing stuff" don;t worry about why - look the millenium falcon is in it. whereas TLJ just had endless tedium to let you think about how nothing made sense from start to end.
if it had been actually "subversive" as the sainted critics claimed they could have had a corrupt and increasingly brutal Republic with the New Order rising up against it and equally proving to be even more evil.
However Rian Johnson's lack of ability or interest meant we instead got stuff like a half an hours Windows starfield screensaver and other crap instead of storty telling in anyway.
In contrast Rouge One shows that they are evil from the start, laughibly incompetant but evil, Solo its not so clear - are the crimelords so prevelant and powerful because of or despite the Empire?
We didn’t really get any between ROTJ and ROTS - though we did get some fun land battles. Rogue One equally scratched that itch, and made it itchier.
They’ve shown us they can absolutely nail them. So give us moar.
And in-Universe, they can do that, despite the Resistance being seemingly crushed.
See, the Aftermath novels explained Mon Mothma’s reasoning for a relatively small Republic fleet. It was a deliberate demilitirisation, a way to show the new Republic wasn’t just a rebranded Empire.
Each system would have its own armed forces as it so wished, and the Republic fleet was intended as peace keeping - a way to maintain peace but incapable of mounting a war on its own.
So whilst The Republic fleet is gone, diplomatic efforts to unite other forces to confront and defeat The First Order are very much possible.
Manchu wrote: Of course, don’t forget the PT never explained the political cause of the CW either. The Republic invaded Geonosis because ... er, well, it was time for a big battle scene.
Oh yeah. One of the biggest problems with the PT imo was that it couldn't decide if it wanted to be a classic sort of sci-fi serial, or a more serious sci-fi epic. There is a difference.
A sci-fi serial is about the adventure, the wonder. The OT was like that, and mostly so is the NT. They're all about set pieces, and keep characters and plots classic, simple, and straightforward.
A sci-fi epic is about the plot. The tensions. The PT dabbled in this, but dabbled in the above two, and ended up feeling muddied. One second we're watching a twelve-year-old win space NASCAR against all odds, and then we're listening to some pseudo-philosophical nonsense and politics and the two did not mesh at all. This goes hand in hand with the Jedi philosophy becoming "serious business" that was too dense to be archetypal, but too immature to be worthwhile and that's honestly the PT in a nutshell. Too dense to be easily digested, and too immature to be worth trying in the first place. And don't even get me started on the plot holes...
Using your terms, I’d prefer epic over serial for the PT era — esp bc the central event is the fall of the Republic (an ethos) and the parallel fall of Anakin (a mythic hero).
Jedi should never have been reinvented as a quasi Buddhist monastic order. Obi-wan and Yoda had personal reasons for living like monks. It didn’t need to be lazily read back onto the entire concept.
Anyhow for movies that drone on about exposition, it’s pretty amazing how one of the most important political issues is totally missing.
The Disney trilogy pulls much more to serial sci fi because it’s assiduously plagiarizing the OT. But ANH economically informed and us of the overarching political situation. Disney expects me to buy novels and comics to learn the fundamental elements of the setting.
Manchu wrote: Disney expects me to buy novels and comics to learn the fundamental elements of the setting.
this more than anything else is probably the biggest failure of the new trilogy. I've been reading a lot of that new fluff. It's cool, there are some good stories hidden in the marvel comics and the occasional book. But the fact that its almost required to understand why (why not what) things are happening in the movies. That's a problem.
We didn’t really get any between ROTJ and ROTS - though we did get some fun land battles. Rogue One equally scratched that itch, and made it itchier.
They’ve shown us they can absolutely nail them. So give us moar.
And in-Universe, they can do that, despite the Resistance being seemingly crushed.
See, the Aftermath novels explained Mon Mothma’s reasoning for a relatively small Republic fleet. It was a deliberate demilitirisation, a way to show the new Republic wasn’t just a rebranded Empire.
Each system would have its own armed forces as it so wished, and the Republic fleet was intended as peace keeping - a way to maintain peace but incapable of mounting a war on its own.
So whilst The Republic fleet is gone, diplomatic efforts to unite other forces to confront and defeat The First Order are very much possible.
That sounds like complete stupidity - you can have what armed forces you like but we will restrict ourselves?
Even super utopian civilisations like the Culture know better than that - not only do you have a big stick (or two) in case but you also have the inteligence operatives keeping an eye on any potential threats - external and internal.
Presumably the First Order or its ancestor was somewhere and built up a truely massive military secretly?
Who are these other forces (who ignored the fight so far)
Manchu wrote: Using your terms, I’d prefer epic over serial for the PT era — esp bc the central event is the fall of the Republic (an ethos) and the parallel fall of Anakin (a mythic hero)
Well, they needed to pick one or the other. I'm not going to quibble over which they were, because I think their biggest problem (other than Lucas turning out to be a gak writer) is that they tried to be two different takes on the genre in one film trilogy, and it just doesn't work.
Thing I found most jarring about the Prequels, at least initially, was how clean things were.
Even on Tatooine, it didn’t feel as grimy and lived in as the OT. Which was, as is now well documented, unique for its time. All other sci-fi was basically Chrome and Disco. Or dischrome, if you will.
Now don’t get me wrong. There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with that look. And my appreciation did somewhat develop over the years, even though it never supplanted my love of the original look, and at this stage, never will.
Perhaps if they’d eased us into it a bit, I’d feel differently. But it is what it is.
This is another reason I appreciate the new trilogy. It’s blending the two to some degree. Still scuzzy, dirty and clapped out. But with some Nice And Clean here and there, such as the Republic Cruiser in TLJ, which matches the MonCal vibe we saw in ROTJ.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Thing I found most jarring about the Prequels, at least initially, was how clean things were.
That, at least, can be a deliberate filmmaking decision (iirc, I think it was discussed once or twice on some background thing or other). The OT is post-republic, with this terrible Empire that doesn't care about its citizens. The prequels step back to the 'golden era' (that turns out is more gilded than gold), but at least it looks like a cleaner and more civilized age.
Had Lucas been more competent at this filmmaking thing, he could have shown things geting worse in this regard in each film.
But it hardly mattered anyway, because the camera in the Prequels was in one of two modes most of the time: head and shoulders view of somebody talking or walking, or full-on CGI-spectacle mode with every pixel of the camera smeared with random effects going off- in those scenes, there isn't any time to appreciate or even glimpse the setting.
Manchu wrote: Disney expects me to buy novels and comics to learn the fundamental elements of the setting.
this more than anything else is probably the biggest failure of the new trilogy. I've been reading a lot of that new fluff. It's cool, there are some good stories hidden in the marvel comics and the occasional book. But the fact that its almost required to understand why (why not what) things are happening in the movies. That's a problem.
It's not, though. I hadn't read any of the new material before seeing Episodes 7 and 8 (and still haven't read much of it, as I found it too jarring after being so immersed in the EU for the last 20 years or so) and I had no trouble following what was going on. You don't actually need the entire history of the First Order to understand that they're the bad guys... it tells you that right up front at the start of Ep7.
The novels and comics flesh things out, but they're by no means required to follow the movies.
I suppose one could argue that someone still cares about Star Wars by the strength and investment of their posts in this own thread. For example, I'd say that a number of posters here may not like the direction of the star wars movies much anymore now, but still care a great deal about it. They're still emotionally invested in it.
The more interesting thing, I think, and the one that will potentially bring harm, is the apathetic. The ones who quite literally do not care about Star Wars anymore. They're not complaining about it or writing essays on it - there's no such thing as bad press, and so on.
They just don't engage anymore, tune out. No more bums on seats. No more toy buying. Even on Dakka, how many people are straight up passing by this thread.
Voss wrote: Had Lucas been more competent at this filmmaking thing, he could have shown things geting worse in this regard in each film.
Totally excellent idea.
But hard to pull off considering that so much of the PT happens on Coruscant and especially in and around the Senate and Jedi Temple. Because this is a story about the fall of the Republic, that makes sense.
And that’s why the PT is an example of what LoH above calls epic sci fi. We’re talking about political and historical narratives moreso than adventures.
Rather than completely wasting the first movie in the PT, and only even getting to Darth Vader in the last act of the final installment, the PT should have began with a grown-up Anakin already fighting in the Clone Wars.
Ugh it’s probably best not to go down this “how to fix the PT” path yet again. It can’t be fixed. It would have to just be scrapped and rebooted entirely.
Just like the Disney trilogy.
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insaniak wrote: You don't actually need the entire history of the First Order to understand that they're the bad guys...
TBF the question isn’t whether they’re the baddies.
The question is, what are the stakes even?
Think about it from a general audience member POV. Previous reference is the Battle of Endor. Why is the defeated Empire seemingly an order of magnitude, at least, more materially powerful than the victorious Republic? TFA should have drawn a line connecting the end of the last installment to the beginning of the next.
But this is JJ’s style. Plus, he can claim to be following in Lucas’s footsteps by starting in media res. Lucas is a better storyteller, however, because even his simple dialogue naturally explains what is up: there is a Senate, the bad guy’s don’t have much respect for it, the head bad guy dissolves the Senate and wants to rule by fear rather than consent, the good guys oppose this. Contrast with TFA: the Resistance is never explained, the FO is never explained, who was Max von Sydow playing? never explained, who is Snoke? never explained, and on and on. Just thing after thing introduced with no exposition to contextualize it or give it any meaning, even including the protagonist (I guess???) of the story.
We knew who the good guys are and who the bad guys are, sure. But TFA devotes no resources to explaining why we should care about them or their conflict.
I think one of the reasons TLJ is so loathed is because it was the moment when we realized there was nothing from TFA to really care about. TFA was a fun movie in the sense that cotton candy is a fun food. Don’t get me wrong, TLJ has plenty of its own problems, including being almost totally free of fun. But the big problems with the whole project of Disney Star Wars are down to TFA established no real foundation for a coherent larger story.
Sorry, but I am briefly going to go down that rabbit hole; see my head canon when the prequel trilogy was announced was that it would mirror the original trilogy: film one would be setup, probably in the middle of the clone wars, with Obi-wan finding Anakin and him being key to a major victory. You could actually have something very similar to Phantom Menace, substitute droid army for clones* and make Anakin about 13. (*note that I’d always assumed that the clones were the bad guys; “The Clone Wars” sounds like “a war against clones”, anyway...)
I figured that film two would be the temptation and fall of Anakin Skywalker, ending with the big twist/reveal of him becoming Darth Vader (mirroring the “I am your Father” moment). Film three would then be the rise of Empire and the hunting down of the Jedi, ending in a note of hope with the escape of Obi-wan with Luke & Leia and the formation of the Rebellion (probably similar in tone and feel to Rogue One, now I think about it).
Now, obviously that’s quite different from what we’ve got and it’s had me pondering for a while; at what point will it be acceptable to remake the prequels? I don’t think anyone will ever back rebooting the OT, but I think it’s possible that producers could be persuaded to green light a reboot of the PT, so anyone have a feel for when that might be a possibility. I think it could be as early as late 2020’s; the current films will be done by then (and may even have gone on hiatus, depending on performance) and the PT will be getting on for 30 years old at that point (same kind of interval between OT and the Special Editions.)
Given I skipped the new SW books due to the reviews, is it ever explained why the galaxy far far away seems to have shrunk, why the entire new republic and its fleet consist of 1 system and all the other inconsistencies from tfa?
insaniak wrote:
It's not, though. I hadn't read any of the new material before seeing Episodes 7 and 8 (and still haven't read much of it, as I found it too jarring after being so immersed in the EU for the last 20 years or so) and I had no trouble following what was going on. You don't actually need the entire history of the First Order to understand that they're the bad guys... it tells you that right up front at the start of Ep7.
The novels and comics flesh things out, but they're by no means required to follow the movies.
This is why I attempted to emphasize WHY in the post rather than WHAT. We all know whats going on, The First Order are the bad guys. But we don't know why they are doing this, why the resistance is there, why the republic is largely ignoring what to us seems like an obvious threat. However, if you crack open a book or a comic. It's all there.
SeanDrake wrote:Given I skipped the new SW books due to the reviews, is it ever explained why the galaxy far far away seems to have shrunk, why the entire new republic and its fleet consist of 1 system and all the other inconsistencies from tfa?
That's because, after the defeat of the empire, the remaining loyalists retreated to uncharted territory beyond the outer rim. There they went basically unseen for quite some time before rumors or a new empire beyond the rim came flooding back to the new republic. Then Kylo Ren happened, and suddenly Leia knew that something dangerous was happening with this new "First Order". She attempted to get the republic to send a fleet, but they refused to invade a sovereign nation and instead she was stuck with what few volunteers she could scrounge together from the republic and those she could recruit within first order space.
At least based on the expanded universe stuff that I have read (Which is not everything. Basically just the poe dameron comics right now, haven't gotten around to aftermath yet.) Of course, reading the books shouldn't be required to understand the stakes in the movies.
You know what's weird? I didn't hate Solo, but since seeing it in the cinema I haven't watched it again, and I'd completely forgotten it even existed until I started reading this thread!
Riquende wrote: You know what's weird? I didn't hate Solo, but since seeing it in the cinema I haven't watched it again, and I'd completely forgotten it even existed until I started reading this thread!
Whilst I like Solo that's exactly the disposable popcorn effect that the Wars should be delivering as opposed to over promising and being unable to deliver then getting snippy at the wrong kind of fans, be interesting to see what DB FU-S8 and DB FU-S82 serve up
I think one of the reasons TLJ is so loathed is because it was the moment when we realized there was nothing from TFA to really care about. TFA was a fun movie in the sense that cotton candy is a fun food. Don’t get me wrong, TLJ has plenty of its own problems, including being almost totally free of fun. But the big problems with the whole project of Disney Star Wars are down to TFA established no real foundation for a coherent larger story.
That isn't really true at all. I didn't really like TFA, but there were quite a few elements that could have been part of a coherent larger story. Luke could have been engaged with something, not just hiding, destroying the FO's new superweapon could have set them back in some fashion, letting the Resisty go on the offensive, Finn could have lead them to recruitment and training centers, Poe could have had actionable intelligence for the next phase, the various droids could have had any number of plot threads (rather than just a red herring for an arm, for example), Rey could have been relevant to someone in the larger universe [it didn't have to be her 'parents were special,' any number of people could have dumped her on that planet), either movie could have dug into the first order and gave them a reason for being space nazis, beyond 'space nazis are easy bad guys.' Frog lady could have been something other than a throwaway joke, etc, etc.
Writer/Director/Overall Idiot for TLJ just refused to engage with any of it, or even his own story, which ends exactly where it left off: small band of rebels need to escape evil fleet.
I agree, there were things that someone else could have explained but what I am saying is the first movie in the trilogy needs to be the one to establish the foundation not just bait the line.
Voss 778329 10517697 wrote:the various droids could have had any number of plot threads (rather than just a red herring for an arm, for example),
Writer/Director/Overall Idiot for TLJ just refused to engage with any of it, or even his own story, which ends exactly where it left off: small band of rebels need to escape evil fleet.
For some reason you guys got me on an EU binge today. The Poe Dameron comic establishes C3PO as the spymaster of the resistance, and even includes a scene where he gets captured and the FO intelligence guy is like "why would anyone use a droid for spycraft?" and C3PO is like "well lots of people tend not to think about droids much, until its too late." or something to that effect. Then an FO commando droid that turned out to be a spy just starts killing stormtroopers.
I still care, despite the movie which shall not be named. I refuse to let one bad apple spoil the whole barrel. I absolutely love the original trilogy, as in they (all put together) might be my favorite movies of all time. I enjoyed the prequels a lot as a kid, but I've since become much less enamored of them. However, I don't feel some of the raging hate for them, or even of that certain Gungan for that matter (he was comic relief, why is that such a problem?), that a lot of the internet fanboys seem to have. I've read nearly all of the old Expanded Universe (now Legends) outside of the young readers' novels and the comic books. Loved almost all of them, even the New Jedi Order (I find the Yuuzhan Vong to be a fascinating enemy for the story), and I was crushed that Disney killed it off. As for the Disney stuff, I loved Clone Wars, and I haven't seen Rebels (but I want to). Moviewise, I liked The Force Awakens alright, but it could have been better. Rogue One was amazing, Solo was, like TFA, okay but not great, and the other one, while terrible in most areas, at least had fun visual thrills and stuff. I still consider myself to be a big Star Wars fan, and I don't see that changing any time soon.
I treat it like I do Star Trek. There are some pretty awful episodes in all of the Trek series, and even some of the movies aren't that good, but I'm still very much a fan of Star Trek. I'm not going to stop being a fan either, no matter how terrible Discovery gets (actually haven't seen any of it for myself yet).
TL;DR: I am a Star Wars fan and will not allow one bad movie to ruin it for me.
Outside of the Mandalorian, no...and even that is minimal. Everything else in the past five years with Star Wars that I was excited about was either cancelled, abandoned, crap, too politicized, or a combination of the above. I'll wait for some sort of free offer for the streaming service after checking out YouTube reviews first before watching the Mandalorian. I used to spend hundreds of dollars a year for decades in Star Wars related things between the rpgs, minis, video games, tchochkes, and apparel but my last purchase was iirc the U wing for xwing when it came out and that was the first in a while itself.
They just don't engage anymore, tune out. No more bums on seats. No more toy buying. Even on Dakka, how many people are straight up passing by this thread.
Well, there's a useful distinction between not wanting to discuss it and not wanting to discuss it here. I mean, I'm not really a fan of TLJ (I'd rate it as a 5), and I've criticised it on other forums that are capable of having intelligent discussion on the subject, but the idea of engaging with the levels of bile here just makes me nope out.
Manchu wrote: Same here, Warboss, regarding money spent of SW stuff. From hundreds if not thousands per year to zero.
You must have quite a haul of premium collectibles then! I don't think any one single thing I bought was over $100 (unless you count the three separate times I bought the same Force Unleashed game over two years as a single frankenpurchase, lol). I forgot to mention toys/figures, comics, and novels in my list in addition to the other categories I mentioned.
TLJ killed my enthusiasm for the main trilogy, but to me Rogue One and Solo show that Star Wars still has promise. I’d be keen to see more of their kind.
Writer/Director/Overall Idiot for TLJ just refused to engage with any of it, or even his own story, which ends exactly where it left off: small band of rebels need to escape evil fleet.
I disagree: TFA really left very little which to grab as a writer. Neither FO or Snoke were presented as any kind of mystery; Rey was only one who cared about her parents; political background to the conflict was explained very little but already described in EU material so there wasn't much they could do with it in the sequel; reasons for Luke's leaving were spelt out in TFA and the movie ended with Rey finding him living a hermit's life, so again relatively little wiggle room for the sequel.
I think lots of people were disappointed with TLJ because they saw TFA and thought "okay, this wasn't horrible like the prequels but story seems bit thin, surely there must be more to it which is then explained in detail in the next movie!" and then TLJ rolled out and it was simply one directors' remake of ESB, just like TFA was remake of ANH. There was no great plan, no big mystery, no stroke of plotbuilding genius. New trilogy was exposed as just people following their orders and collecting their paycheques by doing slightly modified versions of previous movies.
Manchu wrote: Using your terms, I’d prefer epic over serial for the PT era — esp bc the central event is the fall of the Republic (an ethos) and the parallel fall of Anakin (a mythic hero)
Well, they needed to pick one or the other. I'm not going to quibble over which they were, because I think their biggest problem (other than Lucas turning out to be a gak writer) is that they tried to be two different takes on the genre in one film trilogy, and it just doesn't work.
I'd always heard/used the term "Space Opera" myself. . . In that, if you really look at the stories, it is opera with a sci-fi veneer. In an opera, the "bad guy" has to be easily spotted as a bad guy just as the "good guy" must be easily spotted as the goodie. . . In ANH, in the opening scene, the "good guys" have their faces visible, while the badguys are faceless helmet clad people, led by a dude wearing all black and a cape (and really, I think only one "good guy" in the entire series ever wears a cape). In many ways I think we're not really meant to think too deeply about WHY the baddies are bad, we are just supposed to accept that they are bad, and that in the end, we're supposed to root against them (This applies in so many other media as well: GI Joe, you're supposed to hate Cobra, Transformers you're just supposed to know that you need to dislike Decepticons, never mind any of their reasoning for doing anything), which does go with, and agrees with LoH's terms as well (IMO, in an epic, the justifications and character exploration of the baddie often plays some role in the resolution of the plot with the goodie)
Over the years, as I've developed a bit of a hobby interest in the technical aspects of film making (Ie, the "science" behind what shot to do when, when/how to use panoramic shots to set scene, the elements of an "intimate" shot that will make or break a quiet but important scene, etc.), I've recognized that the OT was truly pioneering in special effects, but that so many other areas of the story just sort of let me down. I know some people can point to specific things that they don't like about the shooting/lighting/aesthetics of any movie, but for the SW franchise there's just something missing from it that I do get from other sci-fi films.
I mean, there's a few bits here or there of the new stuff that I enjoyed. Visually, admiral what's-her-name jumping to hyperspace THROUGH the baddie's ship was pretty cool looking (never minding any reasons why she did it. . . rather not open those cans of worms). The epic lightsaber menage-trois between Qui-gonn, Obi Wan and Darth Maul. Some of the stuff in Rogue One. . . But for me, these small glimpses of good/great stuff doesn't do enough to keep me hooked or remembering much beyond the actual viewing. There's something in the story-telling that I personally find is missing from the SW cinematic universe.
I've personally never been into the various cartoons. Used to play a couple of the games here and there. Had a brief dabble into the X-Wing tt game, but on the whole, I've just personally found much of the universe lacking. I mean, as a 4th grade git, I was reading Tales of the Bounty Hunters and devoured most of the EU books from that period, but when the newer movies came out and either ignored, or outright trashed the better elements of the EU (As a much older, and much more educated adult, I get some of the reasoning behind ignoring the EU entirely), many of those changes left a sort of bitter taste to me. . . I mean, who doesn't want Han Solo to get into a barroom brawl with an otter that's only slightly smaller than Chewie!? [/sarcasm]
He kind of has a point though. TFA and TLJ, somehow, have failed to establish meaningful stakes for the current plot. The struggle between the Resistance and the First Order feels like some kind of giant galactic aside that the rest of the galaxy doesn't care about, and I'm not really sure why that is. It's not like the OT showed us lots of daily life in the galaxy, but it felt like there were stakes for the galaxy at large in the conflict between the Empire and the Rebellion. The Resistance and the First Order feel like some sideshow that has no meaning to anyone else.
I agree. OT had quite self-explanatory nomenclature. There was Empire, Emperor and Rebel Alliance. Emperor did bad things (dissolved Senate, his goons destroyed an entire planet, and so on).
Disney Trilogy? There is First Order and New Republic and Resistance. Anyone can picture 'Empire' in their heads but 'First Order' doesn't really tell us much. There is 'Resistance' but there is also 'Republic' which is apparently somehow tied to it. However Republic doesn't fight the First Order. Why?
In background material it is all spelled out and the story makes great deal of sense actually, but it's not shown in the movie. It feels either like a sideshow as you said, or alternatively people seems to mistake it for same struggle like in OT, where First Order dominates the galaxy like Empire did, but not as clearly laid out.
Indeed. I'd venture to say you care more about the story arch than anything else. I am much the same way and ROTJ and TPM (which gets trashed a lot for what I think are unfair reasons). I don't care that Jar Jar binks is stupid. It doesn't ruin the film for me though I more or less just day dream a bit about how awesome watching darthmaul and Obiwan fight in some kind of cloud city esq setting will be and boom - Im there in no time and loving it. I mean heck...Jhin and Obi are really annoyed by him too...That is kind of the point of him. ROTJ though is incredible. It is the epic clash of good and evil and not only does good win out (which everyone should love) Good converts evil to good. There is literally nothing better than that.
ROTJ is really very much a hit & miss movie for me, some parts are incredibly good, some parts bore me to tears or feel ludicrous (when I first heard of Emperor shooting blue lightning, I thought "that's real stupid, doesn't seem something which belongs to SW branch of space magic). Other two OT movies do not have similarly boring bits. But still, pretty much every scene on board of Death Star is gold and some of the most awesome SW moments.
None of the subsesquent SW movies do same for me. Prequels have some ok fight scenes with meh characters. TFA feels very bland and averag-ish, a movie made too 'safe'. TLJ has some good powerful scenes, unfortunately parts of the movie feels very rushed and amateurishly written and it suffers from package left to it by TFA. I am not particularly excited for Ep IX, but that's mostly because it's JJ Abrams work, whom I do not think very highly about, rather than being mega disappointed with Disney SW movies.
It's worth noting that from OT theatrical run, very first movie made about twice as much in box office as ESB or ROTJ.
Now, my nephews/nieces (~5-10 years old) are the big fans: they watch the movies as soon as they get released, and have tons and tons of merchandise (costumes, action figures, legos, etc.). It's the whole Disney package for them, and even a big part of their trips to the Disney Park near Paris.
So to me, SW is really a big Disney franchise at this point, just like Frozen and the like. Seriously, my niece went from being a hardcore Frozen fan (can't remember the name of the princess she was dressing up as), to a fan of the new Jedi girl (Rey?).
That's pretty much what happened with Prequels: old hardcore fans hated them, younglings gobbled up the merchandise.
Your niece might be coming a full circle: upcoming Frozen looks much more interesting than upcoming Star Wars
The funny part for me is that ROTJ could never stand up to the hyper-criticism people use against the prequels and sequels. It isn't a very good film. The direction, script and performances are the worst of the originals, and it's not even close. Even Harrison Ford looks like he should be doing dinner theater. Cripes, people carp about porgs, but at least they're just scene dressing. The Ewoks represent far more brazen pandering, and they're real characters and an important part of that film's story!
But ROTJ gets a pass because nostalgia. Which is a very powerful poison, and a reason why superfans seem so constantly upset with franchises that should be their favorites. #NotMyWhatever
It's very hard to live up to some golden ideal that doesn't actually exist. If I was running a studio, I probably wouldn't give two gaks about the superfans of any given franchise either. You can never please them, so feth 'em. Aim at the fans a step or two toward the center, general audiences, and everyone in between, and let the superfans not care anymore.
Return of the Jedi has the best duel in the entirety of the SW films so far, though.
I wouldn't call it a 'duel' actually. Both have goals something beyond just killing each other. It's a spectacular scene however. That's one thing which went wrong with prequels: lightsaber fights lacked other goals than simple killing the opponent and had little emotion. They were just throwaway wushu fights. TFA tried to get back in track but it didn't really work out.
The funny part for me is that ROTJ could never stand up to the hyper-criticism people use against the prequels and sequels. It isn't a very good film. The direction, script and performances are the worst of the originals, and it's not even close. Even Harrison Ford looks like he should be doing dinner theater. Cripes, people carp about porgs, but at least they're just scene dressing. The Ewoks represent far more brazen pandering, and they're real characters and an important part of that film's story!
But ROTJ gets a pass because nostalgia. Which is a very powerful poison, and a reason why superfans seem so constantly upset with franchises that should be their favorites. #NotMyWhatever
It's very hard to live up to some golden ideal that doesn't actually exist. If I was running a studio, I probably wouldn't give two gaks about the superfans of any given franchise either. You can never please them, so feth 'em. Aim at the fans a step or two toward the center, general audiences, and everyone in between, and let the superfans not care anymore.
Return of the Jedi has the best duel in the entirety of the SW films so far, though.
That, and as per what gorgon is claiming is nonsense - the idea that RotJ gets a pass is just bizarre. I've met like, two people in my entire life who thought it was their favourite(both of whom were the much-lauded "normal fans"), and only a handful more than that who didn't acknowledge it was the worst of the OT by a fair distance and a lot of the reason it's still fondly regarded by most fans is exactly because it's part of the OT and so is the conclusion of the tale told in its two far better predecessors, which elevates it somewhat.
Seriously, where is the gateway to this alternate dimension where Star Wars fans will defend Jedi to the death?
And even putting that aside, a lot of the criticisms of the Prequels and Sequels in fact wouldn't apply to RotJ. The Prequels started fairly boring and marginally improved by the end, literally the opposite of the criticism of RotJ and its place in the OT, and you can't even lump criticism of the Sequels together like that, you have to split it into criticism of TFA and TLJ - the former case being the closest gorgon gets to accuracy, and the latter case being just...bizarre. Like, who criticises RotJ for being an incoherent, poorly choreographed mess that places more value on "subverting expectations" than having a comprehensible script or likeable characters? People criticise RotJ for being a bit unexceptional in comparison to the rest of the OT, but the exact problem most folk seem to have about TLJ is that it is exceptional - every bad thing about it stands out more than the last, an exponential nonsense.
Hell even the Ewok/Porg thing makes no sense, since even the people having a go at Disney for including them pretty much all expressed some variation on "at least they're not Ewoks, just cutesy set-dressing".
The "wah wah superfans can never be happy!" thing also falls a bit flat when you consider that there's a pretty big overlap between people who disliked the Prequels and people who did like the Clone Wars show, and between people who dislike TLJ who though TFA was merely a bit disappointing, or the people who don't care for the Sequels and people who very much enjoyed Rogue One. "Superfans" are not an unpleaseable hivemind, nor are they the rabid troll inhabitants of 4chan & youtube comments that some mistakenly/dishonestly equate them with, they're just fans with a deeper appreciation for the material than your typical Four Quadrant popcorn guzzler.
Which is the real issue - it's entirely possible to please "superfans", it's just not easy to do so when your main objective is to please aforementioned popcorn guzzlers first & foremost.
The Empire Strikes Back may be the best instalment of the original trilogy, but as a film it doesn't work on its own; it's clearly the middle one. For me, Star Wars, Solo and Rogue One all work on their own if you've never seen any other SW films. Rogue One perhaps loses something in that it takes a while for you to figure out who the rebels are.
I'm looking forward to the upcoming film. The TV shows are interesting, but not sufficiently to make me subscribe. Perhaps once they're all finished and I can watch them all in a single month.
Grew up binge watching the OT with my brother at least one weekend a month every month, read numerous books and comics, and played all the video games as soon as they came out.
I enjoyed the PT when it came out. It told a good story and helped solidify what I expected from the Clone Wars and further elaborated on Anakin's descent to the dark side while becoming Darth Vader. I also binge watched the Star Wars: Clone Wars animated series when they were on Cartoon Network.
I currently play X-Wing weekly. I didn't get into Legion when it was only OT because a conventional army vs militants wasn't something I was going to enjoy in a war-game. I am eagerly awaiting the Clones Wars expansion and I will probably play that as often as I can get games.
To the contrary, fans have been overwhelmingly pleased with the OT from 1977 until today. The main exception is RotJ, which has been constantly criticized regarding the Ewoks since 1983. Even so, RotJ is more substantial than any of the SW films released after it.
Fans have also been pleased with the Clone Wars show, overall.
I get why people argue “you can never please the fans!” It’s substantially easier to attack the audience than it is to defend the Prequels or Disney movies.
The funny part for me is that ROTJ could never stand up to the hyper-criticism people use against the prequels and sequels. It isn't a very good film. The direction, script and performances are the worst of the originals, and it's not even close. Even Harrison Ford looks like he should be doing dinner theater. Cripes, people carp about porgs, but at least they're just scene dressing. The Ewoks represent far more brazen pandering, and they're real characters and an important part of that film's story!
But ROTJ gets a pass because nostalgia. Which is a very powerful poison, and a reason why superfans seem so constantly upset with franchises that should be their favorites. #NotMyWhatever
It's very hard to live up to some golden ideal that doesn't actually exist. If I was running a studio, I probably wouldn't give two gaks about the superfans of any given franchise either. You can never please them, so feth 'em. Aim at the fans a step or two toward the center, general audiences, and everyone in between, and let the superfans not care anymore.
Return of the Jedi has the best duel in the entirety of the SW films so far, though.
That, and as per what gorgon is claiming is nonsense - the idea that RotJ gets a pass is just bizarre. I've met like, two people in my entire life who thought it was their favourite(both of whom were the much-lauded "normal fans"), and only a handful more than that who didn't acknowledge it was the worst of the OT by a fair distance and a lot of the reason it's still fondly regarded by most fans is exactly because it's part of the OT and so is the conclusion of the tale told in its two far better predecessors, which elevates it somewhat.
In other words...it gets a pass by association with the rest of the original trilogy.
Which is the real issue - it's entirely possible to please "superfans", it's just not easy to do so when your main objective is to please aforementioned popcorn guzzlers first & foremost.
Well, I'm glad that you agree that SW superfans have to be ignored when it comes to feature filmmaking. Their 'deeper appreciations' aren't aligned. And that combined with a 2-hour format may largely explain why we haven't had a universally embraced SW film in almost 40 years. A better approach would seem to be a mix of products, like any other company trying to reach disparate audiences. So maybe more longer-form works like the Mandalorian for fans wanting the deeper dive (the Clone Wars series seemed to operate well here also), while feature films serve the masses. That won't stop the superfans from complaining about the films (because most will watch them anyway, no matter what they say), but at least it might give them more to engage with.
Of course! Not everything new is great, of course, but then, not everything old was great either- for every Heir to the Empire, there's a Crystal Star, a Star Wars Christmas Special for every Empire. But they still put out some amazing stuff- Solo was great fun, and Rogue One was delightfully bleak. The Rebels duel between Ahsoka Tano and Darth Vader sent chills up my spine.
Just an idle musing that I had in regard to the fanbase and how the studio(s) handle it. . .
There's been a comments ITT about how the current SW show runners have made comments basically to "push" fans of the Original Trilogy, or "original fans" out of the way and focus entirely on creating new fans, and how that attitude has been perceived.
I for one think it has been mishandled (by the creators as well as some fans), and that other film franchises have done better.
Now, this next bit is more a comment on toss-backs and "fan service" . . . The Trek reboot, IMHO handled this brilliantly in that they didn't merely rehash old 1960s tropes. They made a more modern Trek movie, and gave old time fans a line or two, or some thing seen in the background. Same with some of the Craig "Bond" films, where he enters a workshop with some jetpack from Moonraker, or the old DB5. . . Whatever you or I think of the overall quality of these types of films, I think there is something definitely positive to say about how the film-makers on some of these large franchises do their thing while also giving the fans a nibble.
I for one think it has been mishandled (by the creators as well as some fans), and that other film franchises have done better.
Now, this next bit is more a comment on toss-backs and "fan service" . . . The Trek reboot, IMHO handled this brilliantly in that they didn't merely rehash old 1960s tropes. They made a more modern Trek movie, and gave old time fans a line or two, or some thing seen in the background. Same with some of the Craig "Bond" films, where he enters a workshop with some jetpack from Moonraker, or the old DB5. . .
'Other franchises...done better'? Star Trek reboots did weakly in the box office and were widely derided. My dislike for JJA pretty much comes from his so-called "Trek" movies.
One of the best things in 'Casino Royale' was that it was not at all like Moonraker, generally seen as low point of the Bond franchise.
'Other franchises...done better'? Star Trek reboots did weakly in the box office and were widely derided. My dislike for JJA pretty much comes from his so-called "Trek" movies.
One of the best things in 'Casino Royale' was that it was not at all like Moonraker, generally seen as low point of the Bond franchise.
'
Did you actually read the entire comment, or only get what you wanted out?? I was ONLY talking about the fact that the film makers put little things to draw interest from long-time fans. I was not talking about the quality of the films themselves. .
Manchu wrote: TFA was chock full of references to the OT, both in terms of small things and, uh, the whole plot.
Yep, and then we have TLJ, as mentioned earlier, where the creators basically said, "GTFO" to long-time fans. . . It seems that different franchises have VERY different views on how to approach/handle their fanbase. Some prefer to thumb their noses at the fans, and some welcome all fans old and new and try to create something that will appeal to both.
Yep, and then we have TLJ, as mentioned earlier, where the creators basically said, "GTFO" to long-time fans. . . It seems that different franchises have VERY different views on how to approach/handle their fanbase. Some prefer to thumb their noses at the fans, and some welcome all fans old and new and try to create something that will appeal to both.
Ok, so I didn't like TLJ. I thought it made a lot of mistakes in the script and the way it kind of ignored everything that came before. But I never felt like it was sticking up its middle finger at me personally. I'm not quite sure where you are getting the idea that TLJ was telling fans not to watch it.
Ok, so I didn't like TLJ. I thought it made a lot of mistakes in the script and the way it kind of ignored everything that came before. But I never felt like it was sticking up its middle finger at me personally. I'm not quite sure where you are getting the idea that TLJ was telling fans not to watch it.
Apparently, based on some comments far earlier in this thread, the filmmaker's themselves made comments during press tours.
Yep, Disney reps and the director pulled a pretty common "modern day" technique of referring to people critiquing their product as: (insert your choice of: racist, sexist, elitist, etc. etc. etc.). You know, the "you can't critique me if I call you a _______" dodge that's becoming ever more popular.
Basically, regardless of whether you liked the film(s) or not, they're acting like petulant children, which is not a superb way to endear yourself and your future efforts to your consumer base.
Yep, and then we have TLJ, as mentioned earlier, where the creators basically said, "GTFO" to long-time fans. . . It seems that different franchises have VERY different views on how to approach/handle their fanbase. Some prefer to thumb their noses at the fans, and some welcome all fans old and new and try to create something that will appeal to both.
Ok, so I didn't like TLJ. I thought it made a lot of mistakes in the script and the way it kind of ignored everything that came before. But I never felt like it was sticking up its middle finger at me personally. I'm not quite sure where you are getting the idea that TLJ was telling fans not to watch it.
Because something something ess jay dubyas something something people who aren't exactly like me in every way exist therefore SW is ruined forever
It doesn't help when a lot of the criticism is actually coming from a place of (insert your choice of: racist, sexist, elitist, etc. etc. etc.). So now there is the fun of siphoning the information to figure out what is reasonable and valid and which is something else.
Gitzbitah wrote: Of course! Not everything new is great, of course, but then, not everything old was great either- for every Heir to the Empire, there's a Crystal Star, a Star Wars Christmas Special for every Empire. But they still put out some amazing stuff- Solo was great fun, and Rogue One was delightfully bleak. The Rebels duel between Ahsoka Tano and Darth Vader sent chills up my spine.
But I think a lot of people’s point is that while real SW and the EU had up’s and downs so far even as you yourself pointed out with your examples of good Mouse SW moments, none of those moments came from the New Main Trilogy and all of them had strong links with real SW stories except maybe Solo. If you set Rouge 1 in the new timeline with a team stealing the new super dooper not a Death Star honest designs would anyone have really given a gak, I mean solos not a terrible movie but it is about one character a species and a couple of spaceship designs away from being a generic sci fi heist movie. Rebels basically plundered the prequel,orig trilogy and the EU to stay alive. Take resistance for example they tried to build on the new movies and it is gak that will be lucky to make a 3rd series.
So basically the short version is any mouse SW stuff that was not built on the shoulders of the original movies or by grave robbing the original EU has bee a turgid pile of gak. P.S I am aware there are characters from the new movies with the names of characters from the original trilogy but they bare so little relation to the real characters they could have been replaced by any blank cypher they liked and it would have made zero impact to the movie. P.P.S I mean I know why certain characters were included so they could die and others given red arms so they could stop paying royalties on the merchandise but still.
Elbows wrote: Yep, Disney reps and the director pulled a pretty common "modern day" technique of referring to people critiquing their product as: (insert your choice of: racist, sexist, elitist, etc. etc. etc.). You know, the "you can't critique me if I call you a _______" dodge that's becoming ever more popular.
Basically, regardless of whether you liked the film(s) or not, they're acting like petulant children, which is not a superb way to endear yourself and your future efforts to your consumer base.
See I always felt those comments were directed towards the people that were actively harassing the actors on their Instagrams and whatnot. Not towards the actual fans themselves. Now maybe they were worded poorly, and maybe Disney was trying to lump legit criticism in with the racist and sexist stuff in order to avoid admitting to their own mistakes. However, I don't think that in and of itself they were trying to push away fans. Just the toxic people.
Gitzbitah wrote: Of course! Not everything new is great, of course, but then, not everything old was great either- for every Heir to the Empire, there's a Crystal Star, a Star Wars Christmas Special for every Empire. But they still put out some amazing stuff- Solo was great fun, and Rogue One was delightfully bleak. The Rebels duel between Ahsoka Tano and Darth Vader sent chills up my spine.
But I think a lot of people’s point is that while real SW and the EU had up’s and downs so far even as you yourself pointed out with your examples of good Mouse SW moments, none of those moments came from the New Main Trilogy and all of them had strong links with real SW stories except maybe Solo. If you set Rouge 1 in the new timeline with a team stealing the new super dooper not a Death Star honest designs would anyone have really given a gak, I mean solos not a terrible movie but it is about one character a species and a couple of spaceship designs away from being a generic sci fi heist movie. Rebels basically plundered the prequel,orig trilogy and the EU to stay alive. Take resistance for example they tried to build on the new movies and it is gak that will be lucky to make a 3rd series.
So basically the short version is any mouse SW stuff that was not built on the shoulders of the original movies or by grave robbing the original EU has bee a turgid pile of gak. P.S I am aware there are characters from the new movies with the names of characters from the original trilogy but they bare so little relation to the real characters they could have been replaced by any blank cypher they liked and it would have made zero impact to the movie. P.P.S I mean I know why certain characters were included so they could die and others given red arms so they could stop paying royalties on the merchandise but still.
I can definitely see your point. If you're looking for 80's Star Wars, that era's over. It was as soon as the prequels released, or the Special Edition. I had avoided TLJ because I know how polarizing it is. Personally, I loved Luke as a terrible teacher because it's consistent. He was a terrible candidate for Jedi, an apprentice who failed every major test and then dropped out of Jedi school to go lose a duel. Then he wins against a guy trying NOT to kill him, and immediately throws away his weapon rather than striking down evil and freeing his father. He's got great intentions, and appalling follow through, but he always has. I laugh every time Rey thrusts her hand out and he whacks it with his leaf. Finn's fight against the Spinmaster in TLJ is fantastic, and Phasma is a great new character who oozes menace. If you look for it, there's lots to love in the new films. L-337 is hilarious- I kind of wonder if Lando managed to download her into Lobot. K-2SO has a fantastic disregard for humanity.
I'll grant you Resistance is aiming very, very low on the age bracket- I think the new Duck Tales is more mature than it.
But you know, there's always the gold standard litmus test for 'mouse Star Wars', if you really think it would have been in better hands with George Lucas- is it better than The Phantom Menace? Because Pod races, seriously underage romance, and Jar Jar are what Lucas wanted for Star Wars. And sand. I think the quality has gone way up since he stepped aside, though I am very grateful to him for making the original trilogy.
Elbows wrote: Yep, Disney reps and the director pulled a pretty common "modern day" technique of referring to people critiquing their product as: (insert your choice of: racist, sexist, elitist, etc. etc. etc.). You know, the "you can't critique me if I call you a _______" dodge that's becoming ever more popular.
Basically, regardless of whether you liked the film(s) or not, they're acting like petulant children, which is not a superb way to endear yourself and your future efforts to your consumer base.
See I always felt those comments were directed towards the people that were actively harassing the actors on their Instagrams and whatnot. Not towards the actual fans themselves. Now maybe they were worded poorly, and maybe Disney was trying to lump legit criticism in with the racist and sexist stuff in order to avoid admitting to their own mistakes. However, I don't think that in and of itself they were trying to push away fans. Just the toxic people.
That's exactly the case. Certain right-wing groups deliberately took the comments out of context to push their political agenda, but when you look at the original source for the comments it's clearly aimed at incidents everyone can agree are bad behavior.
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gorgon wrote: In other words...it gets a pass by association with the rest of the original trilogy.
Not just by association. ROTJ has some flaws, but its good points are good. It's the conclusion to all of the things that have built up over the past two movies and that gives it a lot more weight than any of the "why does this movie even exist" sequel garbage. ROTJ wouldn't get a pass if it was a truly bad movie with no redeeming qualities.
Yep, and then we have TLJ, as mentioned earlier, where the creators basically said, "GTFO" to long-time fans. . . It seems that different franchises have VERY different views on how to approach/handle their fanbase. Some prefer to thumb their noses at the fans, and some welcome all fans old and new and try to create something that will appeal to both.
I've never understood this take on the whole situation. I never felt personally attacked, nor did I feel in any way 'unwelcome' by that film, and I've been a Star Wars fan since seeing ANH in the early '80s.
Manchu wrote: “... The main exception is RotJ, which has been constantly criticized regarding the Ewoks since 1983. ..
Funnily enough, I never had a problem with the Ewoks, although when I first found out that they were originally going to be Wookies, it did spark a pang of 'what might have been'...
My issues with RotJ come more from Harrison Ford quite clearly wanting to be anywhere other than on that set, Luke trying to be all aloof and jedi-like, and Leia not really having anything to do for most of the movie resulting in the main cast just all being a bit bland. There's lots of cool stuff happening in that movie, it's just really difficult to care about it because the people who were so appealing from the previous movies are so boring in this one.
Leia and Han get their story pretty much worked out in the Tatooine interlude. The second half of the movie belongs to the Luke-Vader-Emperor scenes and everything else going on during them just pales in comparison.
Something's definitely 'off in my Star Wars section of the brain.
Couldn't care enough to track down the trailer for 9. I was brainstorming settings for the next rpg to run a month ago and Star Wars didn't even make a running, despite 2/3rds of all campaigns I've run ending up being set in the Star Wars universe.
Elbows wrote: ...and Peregrine just beautifully proved my point, as usual.
I genuinely have no idea what "point" you think I proved for you. Are you deciding that any time someone uses a critical label for a group it must be some kind of dodge, rather than an honest and accurate statement about the group in question?
PS: in trying to answer this please keep in mind that I think TLJ is a terrible movie, so I'm hardly white knighting for Disney.
'Other franchises...done better'? Star Trek reboots did weakly in the box office and were widely derided. My dislike for JJA pretty much comes from his so-called "Trek" movies.
One of the best things in 'Casino Royale' was that it was not at all like Moonraker, generally seen as low point of the Bond franchise.
'
Did you actually read the entire comment, or only get what you wanted out?? I was ONLY talking about the fact that the film makers put little things to draw interest from long-time fans. I was not talking about the quality of the films themselves. .
Yeah, but I quite don't get it. 'Fan service moments' in JJA Trek reboots were kinda cringey and overplayed mostly (downright embarrassing in Return of Wrath of Khan...oops I mean Into Darkness). Casino Royale was great because it did not attempt to stand on previous Bonds but did its own thing which was quite close to Fleming's original vision of James Bond. I remember very few if any 'fan service' moments there. And when you reboot something, that's how you should do it.
Frankly, after handling Star Trek so poorly, I only can wonder who thought that JJ Abrams would make a great guy to handle new Star Wars. Directors who live by 'rule of cool' are fine for one-off movies, but not great for setting intensive stories.
But you know, there's always the gold standard litmus test for 'mouse Star Wars', if you really think it would have been in better hands with George Lucas- is it better than The Phantom Menace? Because Pod races, seriously underage romance, and Jar Jar are what Lucas wanted for Star Wars. And sand. I think the quality has gone way up since he stepped aside, though I am very grateful to him for making the original trilogy.
I don't think Lucas is a crap writer, but he certainly became a crap, lazy director. It was a big mistake that he decided to direct the movies all by himself. I am sure Prequels would have been much better if he had hired an outside director for the job and also challenge some of his writing. Difference between OT and PT was that in the first, Lucas was surrounded by people who had their own input and were able to challenge and question his unrefined ideas. When making prequels, he was surrounded by yes-men who just took his first draft and started shooting it.
As an aside, I was stuck at an airport yesterday and smashed through about 80% of the new Thrawn book, having enjoyed the previous.
Other than Zahn writing Thrawn as godlike in his deduction powers (which he always did) it's an enjoyable story of dutiful, non-villainous Imperial officers dealing with threats both without (Grysks) and within (corrupt officials). The fact they've woven the power games between Tarkin and Krennic into the jumping off point for the story gives it more of a connection to concurrent events (Thrawn starts the story at Lothal, and has one week to deal with Krennic's literal vermin problem or he loses all funding for the TIE Defender program that will then go to the Death Star).
Rogue One, Rebels, the Thrawn books. Canonically hammering home the sense of nostalgia that is entirely missing from the rest of the Star Wars output.
Manchu wrote: It seems that even for those who like TLJ the existence of TLJ has diminished their enjoyment of SW, even if it is indirect (b/c they don’t enjoy other SW fans/ex-fans talking about not enjoying TLJ).
I feel like you're bending over backwards to blame TLJ for what is ultimately an issue with the fandom proper.
Thats not to say you're wrong about the constant bombardment being draining though.
I'm transitioning our Edge of the Empire game into an Only War one precisely because we can't seem to get through a session without someone bringing up that they're not going to see the new one and how ruined the franchise is and exactly who's fault it is. I see no reason to put work in week after week preparing maps and encounters, practicing voices etc, if all it does is serve to remind them of something they hate now.
It's going to get even worse once 9 comes out. Yes, it's script fixer is the guy who excreted Justice League and Batman V Superman, but even if it somehow miraculously isn't awful the people on both sides are too invested, and the discourse will be just as hostile.
The funny part for me is that ROTJ could never stand up to the hyper-criticism people use against the prequels and sequels. It isn't a very good film. The direction, script and performances are the worst of the originals, and it's not even close. Even Harrison Ford looks like he should be doing dinner theater. Cripes, people carp about porgs, but at least they're just scene dressing. The Ewoks represent far more brazen pandering, and they're real characters and an important part of that film's story!
But ROTJ gets a pass because nostalgia. Which is a very powerful poison, and a reason why superfans seem so constantly upset with franchises that should be their favorites. #NotMyWhatever
It's very hard to live up to some golden ideal that doesn't actually exist. If I was running a studio, I probably wouldn't give two gaks about the superfans of any given franchise either. You can never please them, so feth 'em. Aim at the fans a step or two toward the center, general audiences, and everyone in between, and let the superfans not care anymore.
Your point being? ROTJ is weakest of the OT yes. It's still light years ahead of sequels in term of script, direction and performance. Only thing it loses is in CGI department. But that's the least important part of movies.
There's grading in quality. Just because it's weakest of OT doesn't mean it's equal to the trash that the sequels are. Sequels don't even try to create new. I basically had seen last jedi 20+ years ago...Except by better version.
tneva82 wrote: Your point being? ROTJ is weakest of the OT yes. It's still light years ahead of sequels in term of script, direction and performance. Only thing it loses is in CGI department. But that's the least important part of movies.
There's grading in quality. Just because it's weakest of OT doesn't mean it's equal to the trash that the sequels are. Sequels don't even try to create new. I basically had seen last jedi 20+ years ago...Except by better version.
You're entitled to your opinion, but I question your ability to look at RotJ with any objectivity if you believe that's true.
Eps. 7 and 8 have good performances and are well-directed, and RotJ has genuine issues in both departments. As others have said, the RotJ cast obviously mailed it in (so many awkward deliveries), and by all accounts the director (Marquand, an odd choice from the start) was in way over his head on the production. It showed. Lucas was apparently on set a ton (*unlike* TESB) and was more or less a 'shadow director', which goes to show that troubled SW productions aren't something that started with Disney. Lucas' involvement also may explain why some of the issues with RotJ resemble those of the prequels.
If you love the overall story being told in RotJ and not the ones told in Eps 7 and 8, I understand. I don't completely agree, but I understand. It's just funny to me how fans conflate their story likes and dislikes with other aspects of filmmaking. Abrams and Johnson ran rings about Marquand (and his puppet master). Kershner did too -- it's why TESB is so good.
At least in my experience, your age at the time of ROTJ's release tends to color your perception of it. It's not the single determining factor but rather one common one. I was young enough to like the ewok's cutesy introduction (and sniffle at their deaths) and didn't mind their inclusion one bit. That doesn't change the fact that I think ROTJ is by far the weakest movie of the original trilogy (but still great)... and yet still noticeably better than any Star Wars movie that has come since. Many folks I've talked to that were older (teenage and up) when ROTJ don't agree. Similarly, while I think there are positive aspects in all three prequels, as a whole it's significantly worse as a trilogy with only Revenge of the SIth approaching what I'd call a good movie. Of the Disney Dark Times movies, only Rogue One approaches what I'd consider an average quality movie. YMMV.
warboss wrote: At least in my experience, your age at the time of ROTJ's release tends to color your perception of it. It's not the single determining factor but rather one common one. I was young enough to like the ewok's cutesy introduction (and sniffle at their deaths) and didn't mind their inclusion one bit. That doesn't change the fact that I think ROTJ is by far the weakest movie of the original trilogy (but still great)... and yet still noticeably better than any Star Wars movie that has come since. Many folks I've talked to that were older (teenage and up) when ROTJ don't agree. Similarly, while I think there are positive aspects in all three prequels, as a whole it's significantly worse as a trilogy with only Revenge of the SIth approaching what I'd call a good movie. Of the Disney Dark Times movies, only Rogue One approaches what I'd consider an average quality movie. YMMV.
I would very much agree with your notion that age at the time of release matters. I was also young when ROTJ came out, had EWOK books, watched EWOK cartoons etc. Loved the movie with Good Triumphing over evil, and at the time did not like Empire Strikes back because the bad guys won. For me Phantom Menace will forever be the worst Star Wars film. I was a senior in High School when it released, and had such high expectations for it based on my childhood Nostalgia, the promise I saw in the character Darth Maul etc. All of that was betrayed and I hated the movie. Everything after that seemed better to me simply because I no longer had high expectations. I will also note that I am not a huge Star Wars fan. I liked the original movies, but I did not read the books, did not watch clone wars etc. So I did not have huge built up expectations for the new trilogy.
warboss wrote: At least in my experience, your age at the time of ROTJ's release tends to color your perception of it. It's not the single determining factor but rather one common one. I was young enough to like the ewok's cutesy introduction (and sniffle at their deaths) and didn't mind their inclusion one bit. That doesn't change the fact that I think ROTJ is by far the weakest movie of the original trilogy (but still great)... and yet still noticeably better than any Star Wars movie that has come since. Many folks I've talked to that were older (teenage and up) when ROTJ don't agree. Similarly, while I think there are positive aspects in all three prequels, as a whole it's significantly worse as a trilogy with only Revenge of the SIth approaching what I'd call a good movie. Of the Disney Dark Times movies, only Rogue One approaches what I'd consider an average quality movie. YMMV.
Perhaps there's something to the age factor. I saw it as a young teen in the theaters, and even then I came away...not disappointed exactly, but somewhat underwhelmed. The Ewoks are part of it, but it's the lazy performances, formula feel, and overall emotional flatness (especially in comparison to TESB, which really soars emotionally) that kept the story from carrying me along like it obviously did for some people. Maybe if I had been younger, the sheer wonder of it would have won the day and those first impressions would still be coloring my opinions. *shrug*
tneva82 wrote: Your point being? ROTJ is weakest of the OT yes. It's still light years ahead of sequels in term of script, direction and performance. Only thing it loses is in CGI department. But that's the least important part of movies.
There's grading in quality. Just because it's weakest of OT doesn't mean it's equal to the trash that the sequels are. Sequels don't even try to create new. I basically had seen last jedi 20+ years ago...Except by better version.
You're entitled to your opinion, but I question your ability to look at RotJ with any objectivity if you believe that's true.
Eps. 7 and 8 have good performances and are well-directed,
You're entitled to your opinion, but I question your ability to look at TLJ with any objectivity if you believe that's true.
I've never thought the Ewoks were all that important. I was pretty young when the movie came out, but didn't actually see it until I was older and I guess I never fixated on them that much one way or another. There not the focus of the drama of the finale, which is really more about Luke's confrontation with the Emperor. I've always liked that the finale manages to have a few different kinds of tension going on. In many ways its a bigger version of the trash compactor, where 3PO's comedic struggle with Stormtroopers breaking is contrasted with the desperation of the crew getting crushed. Ewoks are just another random creature we meet; they're really not what the finale is "about".
tneva82 wrote: Your point being? ROTJ is weakest of the OT yes. It's still light years ahead of sequels in term of script, direction and performance. Only thing it loses is in CGI department. But that's the least important part of movies.
There's grading in quality. Just because it's weakest of OT doesn't mean it's equal to the trash that the sequels are. Sequels don't even try to create new. I basically had seen last jedi 20+ years ago...Except by better version.
You're entitled to your opinion, but I question your ability to look at RotJ with any objectivity if you believe that's true.
Eps. 7 and 8 have good performances and are well-directed,
You're entitled to your opinion, but I question your ability to look at TLJ with any objectivity if you believe that's true.
Agreed - IMO TLJ is one othe worst directed films I have seen in the last few years - the script, plot, characters, imagery and pace are all awful.
Its not a bad "star Wars film" its a very bad film full stop in every way that actually matters.
For me, it was speeder scene in Endor in RotJ which was the first "well not everything Star Wars is great" -moment for me. It's just so BORING and pointless. Ewoks kinda suck, never liked them much even as a kid and looking them kill Stormtroopers with obvious toy weapons is a turnoff but at least they sort of provide a story point. RotJ has similar issue which prequels later had - there was wacky comedic Ewok scenes running concurrently with very dark and emotional Throne room scene. Ewoks should have been at least bit more serious.
Worst SW movie for me is Attack of the Clones. It has NOT aged well. After first viewing I thought "well at least the glaring problems of the Phantom Menace were fixed" but after subsesquent viewings I now rate it below Ep1. Without Jar-Jar you notice how terrible the characters are.
I don't like Rogue 1 much. It is well done but feels just so pointless. It's a perfect example of "Rube Goldberg plot point expansion story" (see also: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child). It didn't NEED to be explained how Rebel Alliance gained the blueprints, and the idea that Death Stars weakness was purposedfully designed in just takes away from Alliance's achievments. They won because somebody in the Imperium rigged them to win...woo hoo.
Getting back to topic, I can point one obvious reason why upcoming SW movie seems to lack buzz. Ending of TLJ left little intrigue. If you compare to ending of ESB, there was plenty of intrigue: how will Luke deal with shocking knowledge that Vader is his father? How will they rescue Han? Rebel Alliance seems to have a fleet, maybe we finally see a large space battle? Even the prequels ended in nice intriguing moments: there was ever expanding plot of Palpatine. TFA ended in sort of cliffhanger with Luke finally being found, will he pick up his old lightsaber? Also 'Net was abuzz with fan theories about Snoke's and Rey's origins, although it turned out they were not even intended to be mysteries.
But end of TLJ, there is pretty much nothing of that. Everybody who is left of Resistance is huddled on a small spaceship. Resistance has no fleet so there's not going to be a huge space battle. They have no army so there's not going to be a huge surface battle. Their allies decided not to show up. Luke and Snoke are dead. I suppose there is still little mystery of the Knights of Ren, but they have been hardly mentioned.
Backfire wrote: For me, it was speeder scene in Endor in RotJ which was the first "well not everything Star Wars is great" -moment for me. It's just so BORING and pointless. Ewoks kinda suck, never liked them much even as a kid and looking them kill Stormtroopers with obvious toy weapons is a turnoff but at least they sort of provide a story point. RotJ has similar issue which prequels later had - there was wacky comedic Ewok scenes running concurrently with very dark and emotional Throne room scene. Ewoks should have been at least bit more serious.
This. . . As an earlier poster mentioned: they use guerrilla tactics, primitive weapons, the terrain and, blah blah blah to take out a highly advanced ground force of skilled/trained dudes.
The concept itself isn't bad. I could buy into it if we're talking about a battle involving Tusken Raiders, but not bargain bin Manga style'd short/cute wookees
Ensis Ferrae wrote: This. . . As an earlier poster mentioned: they use guerrilla tactics, primitive weapons, the terrain and, blah blah blah to take out a highly advanced ground force of skilled/trained dudes.
The concept itself isn't bad. I could buy into it if we're talking about a battle involving Tusken Raiders, but not bargain bin Manga style'd short/cute wookees
There were tons of limitations involved with having Ewoks played by little people in cumbersome fur suits. Today, they'd be CGI and would move and behave faster and more fiercely, like the little Wookies they were envisioned to be. It's not the concept, it's the actual visuals that make the whole enterprise seem so silly.
Henry wrote: You're entitled to your opinion, but I question your ability to look at TLJ with any objectivity if you believe that's true.
Objectively? Rian Johnson is a good director who coaxed good performances out of the cast. The visuals were good, and the film balanced action with emotion and quieter sequences. He also attempted to make the movie about something beyond merchandising. It's a WELL-MADE film that just isn't to some peoples' tastes as a SW film.
'But what about Canto Bight? The pacing! Oh, the pacing!!'
Probably the weakest sequence of the movie, BUT...
Backfire wrote: For me, it was speeder scene in Endor in RotJ which was the first "well not everything Star Wars is great" -moment for me. It's just so BORING and pointless.
...speeder bikes were the original Canto Bight. Pod races were the sequel in the line of drawn-out, purposeless speed/chase sequences. If Johnson erred there, at least he goofed in a Star Wars kind of way. The chase for Zam Wesell escapes mention here by being shorter (at least how it felt) and having a purpose.
I actually don't dislike Canto Bight as much on rewatch; at least not the chase sequence. It's a tag long, but comes at a time when the movie needs something happening. For me, the problematic bits are Rose and DJ's little soap boxes, which echo some of the worst of the prequels' little soliloquies.
No, it’s not just a matter of disliking what happens in TLJ. The film is also written poorly in terms of its ideas and structure. The cinematography, editing, and lighting are all good, however, which makes it better than any of the prequels.
Regarding weird pacing of TLJ, I am pretty sure than Johnson was told "put a land battle and space battle scenes in. We didn't have those in the previous one and we need to sell these new spaceship, walker and speeder toys".
Objectively? Rian Johnson is a good director who coaxed good performances out of the cast. The visuals were good, and the film balanced action with emotion and quieter sequences. He also attempted to make the movie about something beyond merchandising. It's a WELL-MADE film that just isn't to some peoples' tastes as a SW film.
Thats not objective in any sense at all. You like the film and defend it - fair enough - but lets not pretend you are any more objective than I, the critics or anyone else that expresses an opinion on the film.
Equally I can say with the same authority as you that its terrible film that is apparently to some people's taste - again however I don't limit my view on it to being a Good or Bad Star Wars- I think its a terrible film because of its awful plot, characters, placing and structure. The visual were lacklustre, there is little to no emotional content and such as this is paltry and badly written and performed.
The move is about nothing.
If the same Director churned out a movie of this poor quality about youth culture in inner city London or The campaigns of Caesar it would still be gak.
If Jonson was told to put a space battle in and a land battle it was probably because they saw the rest and realised that there was no content, no fun, no message, nothing - and perhaps they could divert the attention of the audience with that for a bit of the turgid three hours they would be wasting.
Canto Bright was just another poor sequence in a badly written and directed film.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: This. . . As an earlier poster mentioned: they use guerrilla tactics, primitive weapons, the terrain and, blah blah blah to take out a highly advanced ground force of skilled/trained dudes.
The concept itself isn't bad. I could buy into it if we're talking about a battle involving Tusken Raiders, but not bargain bin Manga style'd short/cute wookees
There were tons of limitations involved with having Ewoks played by little people in cumbersome fur suits. Today, they'd be CGI and would move and behave faster and more fiercely, like the little Wookies they were envisioned to be. It's not the concept, it's the actual visuals that make the whole enterprise seem so silly.
I know one of the recent video games had a PVP "Stormtrooper patrol vs Ewoks in a dark forest" mode, and from what I've seen, it's pants-wettingly terrifying as the Stormtroopers.
gorgon wrote: ...speeder bikes were the original Canto Bight.
Hardly. The speeder bike chase makes sense in the context of the rest of the story, accomplishes the required plot goal of separating certain characters, and doesn't revolve around an ongoing competition to see who can be the stupidest character in the setting. And, most importantly, it doesn't take that long. Canto Bight drags on and on and on and on and the whole thing is utterly pointless. Finn and Mandatory Love Interest™ could have stayed on board the ship and things would have worked out better for everyone. Their entire plan depends on a ridiculous technobabble plot device handwaved out of nowhere, bounces from idiotic decision to idiotic decision with a side note of childish attempts at preaching a message, and ends up accomplishing absolutely nothing besides filling up a bunch of time. Replace the entire Canto Bight sequence with a brief clip of a First Order officer commenting "lol, those cloaks aren't good enough to hide from our sensors" and nothing of value is lost.
Objectively? Rian Johnson is a good director who coaxed good performances out of the cast. The visuals were good, and the film balanced action with emotion and quieter sequences. He also attempted to make the movie about something beyond merchandising. It's a WELL-MADE film that just isn't to some peoples' tastes as a SW film.
Thats not objective in any sense at all. You like the film and defend it - fair enough - but lets not pretend you are any more objective than I, the critics or anyone else that expresses an opinion on the film.
Equally I can say with the same authority as you that its terrible film that is apparently to some people's taste - again however I don't limit my view on it to being a Good or Bad Star Wars- I think its a terrible film because of its awful plot, characters, placing and structure. The visual were lacklustre, there is little to no emotional content and such as this is paltry and badly written and performed.
The move is about nothing.
Worse, its about how its about nothing- that's where the point of the film lies, the writer/director denying there is any point to the film at all, both in the film and outside it. From the 'both sides' obvious bull-gak, to the very beginning of the film, where they're highlighting that they don't have a fighter screen out because they're pants-wettingly stupid, to Kylo Ren explaining to other characters about how they're all meaningless and unimportant despite being, respectively, the protagonist, antagonist and invisible hand of the entire film (and previous one).
But mostly its a snooze fest of watching lights go by out a window, and the survivors end up in the exact same situation they started out in: in a ship, needing to outrun a magical fleet that has infinite manpower and infinite supplies, while they have nothing.
Nothing of worth or note happens in the entire film, because director really wants to tell you how unimportant it is. Even the training subplot is irrelevant, as Rey (in TFA), or random little kids can do crazy things with the Force without training, so the fact that the only available teacher in the entire galaxy ( ) doesn't want to teach anyone doesn't matter.
It's worse than that. TLJ couldn't decide what mattered.
Does sacrificing yourself for others matter? Rose can't seem to make up her damn mind whether it's brave or foolish.
Does power matter? Rey and Kylo both seem to think it matters, but then they win through the power of teamwork so did it really matter?
Does knowledge matter? Apparently not according to Yoda, but it sure seemed to matter when Luke needed to project himself across the galaxy.
The movie never said nothing mattered. It was just a distorted mess of contradictions, and while well-placed contradiction can be a really powerful thing, TLJ seemed to have no sense of what the answers to any of the questions it painstakingly built are. Outside of something something hope something something never give up something something platitudes.
LordofHats wrote: TLJ seemed to have no sense of what the answers to any of the questions it painstakingly built are
Look, the special effects budget was $9999999999 billion so you'd better stop acting so ungrateful with all these questions. Just shut up and watch the next thing explode.
gorgon wrote: ...speeder bikes were the original Canto Bight.
Hardly. The speeder bike chase makes sense in the context of the rest of the story, accomplishes the required plot goal of separating certain characters, and doesn't revolve around an ongoing competition to see who can be the stupidest character in the setting. And, most importantly, it doesn't take that long. Canto Bight drags on and on and on and on and the whole thing is utterly pointless. Finn and Mandatory Love Interest™ could have stayed on board the ship and things would have worked out better for everyone. Their entire plan depends on a ridiculous technobabble plot device handwaved out of nowhere, bounces from idiotic decision to idiotic decision with a side note of childish attempts at preaching a message, and ends up accomplishing absolutely nothing besides filling up a bunch of time. Replace the entire Canto Bight sequence with a brief clip of a First Order officer commenting "lol, those cloaks aren't good enough to hide from our sensors" and nothing of value is lost.
Nothing of value? Really? You say that like every movie has a stuttering Benicio Del Toro. Well, until they all do, Canto Bight will remain our necessary source of "f-f-f-fth".
LordofHats wrote: TLJ seemed to have no sense of what the answers to any of the questions it painstakingly built are
Look, the special effects budget was $9999999999 billion so you'd better stop acting so ungrateful with all these questions. Just shut up and watch the next thing explode.
These are all yes and no question at the same time. There is no axiomatic answer to these questions. In my opinion, that's what the movie was trying to present as central element. There are no easy answer to existential question. There are no easy solutions. Villains aren't just villainous, that's the whole point of Kylo, and heroes aren't just heroic, that's the whole point of Luke in this movie. That's what happens to all main characters. They all question their purpose and their place in this conflict and all of them try to find their answer and find themselves disappointed by the results. Rey wants to save Kylo, but she can't. Finn wants to fight to the bitter end, but is shown the pointlessness of such sacrifice. Kylo wants to be the master and change the rules of the game between dark and light side, but ends up in the same place then all other Siths before him. Luke doesn't want to be seen as a hero and savior, but oups, guess what, he dies as a hero and a savior, his legend bigger then ever. This was a very ambitious plan, it wasn't executed well, especially for Finn, which falls terribly flat, but rather reasonnably for the three others.
I'm eager to see where this is all going to lead in Episode IX, for once, I don't have much clue as to where this is going to end unlike for the end of the other two trilogies whose ending could be seen from space even as a child.
epronovost wrote: Villains aren't just villainous, that's the whole point of Kylo
Except Kylo spends the entire movie being a childish wannabe-Vader. The only time he shows any hint of being anything but a villain is when he saves Rey, but that's immediately revealed to be nothing more than his "rule the galaxy together" sales pitch. And no, killing another villain because you want to take his place is not moral ambiguity.
and heroes aren't just heroic, that's the whole point of Luke in this movie.
Except then you have a bunch of resistance heroes being straightforward heroes, and Luke eventually finds his heroic redemption. Having a bitter old man moment on the way to becoming the hero again is just part of his journey.
Finn wants to fight to the bitter end, but is shown the pointlessness of such sacrifice.
But:
1) He's shown this lesson in an utterly idiotic way. Designated Heterosexual Love Interest attempts suicide to prevent him from fighting to the end, replacing one death with another. Except now instead of dying to save the rest of the resistance from inevitable death the sacrifice is dying so that your creepy stalkerish love obsession doesn't die right away, dooming the entire resistance (including both Finn and Stalker Girl) to die once the First Order breaches the wall. Only act of plot via Luke sacrificing himself prevents everyone else from dying. So, far from showing the pointlessness of sacrifice, it shows a situation where sacrifice and fighting to the end absolutely has a purpose. But apparently the lesson Finn is supposed to understand is that instead of sacrificing himself to save his friends and the cause he believes in he should run away and wait passively to die with them?
2) It's in direct contrast to everything else going on. Admiral Purplehair sacrifices herself to annihilate an entire First Order fleet and allow the transports to escape, finally earning Poe's admiration in the process and creating one of the few good moments of the movie (just don't think about it too much fluff-wise). Designated Love Interest tries to sacrifice herself so her obsession doesn't die, and I guess we're supposed to approve of this? And finally Luke wraps up his story with a heroic sacrifice. So if sacrifice and fighting to the end is bad then why is so much of the movie saying the exact opposite?
This is why I hate TLJ, there's so little coherent thought behind it. You're just supposed to mindlessly follow along from CGI spectacle to witty one-liner to cliche emotional scene and back to more CGI spectacle without thinking about anything but what is on the screen at that moment. Any question of overall plot or message is about as intelligent and relevant as the story of the pizza guy showing up at the start of a porn movie.
The arrival of the pizza guy is extremely relevant to the theme and the plot; the theme of personal responsibility is pounded home when it comes together with the pizza plot: never lose track of your money when ordering a pizza or there will be consequences.
I suspected the Canto Bight prison scene was headed into a similar territory once Del Toro showed up, where Finn and Rose's lack of responsible parking lead to parking violation consequences. Just didn't go far enough. "F-f-fth-fth-fth!"
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The arrival of the pizza guy is extremely relevant to the theme and the plot; the theme of personal responsibility is pounded home when it comes together with the pizza plot: never lose track of your money when ordering a pizza or there will be consequences.
I suspected the Canto Bight prison scene was headed into a similar territory once Del Toro showed up, where Finn and Rose's lack of responsible parking lead to parking violation consequences. Just didn't go far enough. "F-f-fth-fth-fth!"
I'm now imagining Hacker Guy appearing out of the shadows wearing nothing but a laptop with a conveniently placed hole and saying "I'll h-h-hack your s-s-system baby". I don't think it would be worse than what we actually got.
Yep, I think that’s the thing we can draw a line under. By contrast, the PT evoked a sense of shared suffering — probably because there was no sophisticated viral marketing campaign to shift the narrative from how bad the movies were to how bad the fans are. There was a certain innocence or at least transparency to the almost surreal problems with those movies. They were, at the end of the day, super glossy indy films. But they were assuredly Star Wars films, regardless of how bad they were and whether anyone liked them. The initial hurdle with these Disney films is, there’s nothing but the exchange of money for ownership to “prove” they are SW. So with TFA, Disney got JJ to reshoot ANH. And everything one superficially associated with SW was re-presented in a just slightly different way. This caused some groans but by and large the fans were on board and even eager for more. Then comes TLJ and the whole fragile, expensive thing snapped like a thin glass wire.
Manchu wrote: Yep, I think that’s the thing we can draw a line under. By contrast, the PT evoked a sense of shared suffering — probably because there was no sophisticated viral marketing campaign to shift the narrative from how bad the movies were to how bad the fans are. There was a certain innocence or at least transparency to the almost surreal problems with those movies. They were, at the end of the day, super glossy indy films. But they were assuredly Star Wars films, regardless of how bad they were and whether anyone liked them. The initial hurdle with these Disney films is, there’s nothing but the exchange of money for ownership to “prove” they are SW. So with TFA, Disney got JJ to reshoot ANH. And everything one superficially associated with SW was re-presented in a just slightly different way. This caused some groans but by and large the fans were on board and even eager for more. Then comes TLJ and the whole fragile, expensive thing snapped like a thin glass wire.
I saw the whole thing with Phantom Menace and other prequels. Reaction of the fanbase was exact same. Also they were just as cynical as Disney movies in getting the merchandise marketed and making tons of money (which they did). And the prequels borrowed tons of stuff from the OT and had the most pointless, stupid fan service moments imaginable so I don't know where the idea comes that they were 'more Star Wars' or 'less superficial'.
gorgon wrote: ...speeder bikes were the original Canto Bight.
Hardly. The speeder bike chase makes sense in the context of the rest of the story, accomplishes the required plot goal of separating certain characters, and doesn't revolve around an ongoing competition to see who can be the stupidest character in the setting. And, most importantly, it doesn't take that long.
No. The speeder scene, for what it does, is long. Really long, and tedious. If they wanted to separate characters (I don't really see if it was necessary) then they could have done it in 10 seconds. The scene is there just to provide action because somebody thought that movie needed some at that point, and give merchandise range another toy to sell.
Canto Bight drags on and on and on and on and the whole thing is utterly pointless. Finn and Mandatory Love Interest™ could have stayed on board the ship and things would have worked out better for everyone. Their entire plan depends on a ridiculous technobabble plot device handwaved out of nowhere, bounces from idiotic decision to idiotic decision with a side note of childish attempts at preaching a message, and ends up accomplishing absolutely nothing besides filling up a bunch of time. Replace the entire Canto Bight sequence with a brief clip of a First Order officer commenting "lol, those cloaks aren't good enough to hide from our sensors" and nothing of value is lost.
So in top of everything else, you'd give FO new type of super-sensor capable of seeing through the cloak? Talk about all the good toys being concentrated for one side.
Point of the Canto Bight subplot is threefold:
1. They need to show part of the galaxy which is unaligned - that not everyone is either Resistance or First Order, that there are places which this war doesn't touch, in fact most of the galaxy is probably unaffected by this conflict.
2. They needed one more increasingly desperate plan from Resistance, and they needed it to fail, to really drive home that they are screwed.
3. They needed to show that First Order were not merely completely incompetent fools who just happened to own more and bigger guns. All those cloak & dagger infiltration missions they do all the time in Star Wars stories are dangerous, one might get caught - hey, they were! By a routine security measure no less. How about that.
When I watched the whole subplot happen, I wasn't too excited about it, I was like "yawn, yet another daring infiltration and sabotage subplot, this is pretty ludicrous, why should this ever work out - whoa, it didn't! Well that makes sense actually. And that shady scoundrel they met in the jail wasn't too trustworthy, whadda shocker!" Basically the subplot brought viewer back to Earth: desperate stunts don't always work.
In a movie where everything was already going wrong for the resistance, the audience needed another moment of everything going wrong in order to bring them back to Earth, followed by a moment of heroic sacrifice is good, followed by everything is going wrong, heroic sacrifice is bad, heroic sacrifice is good as long as you're projecting yourself across the galaxy, by the way we actually have hope now there's only a dozen of us?
epronovost wrote: In my opinion, that's what the movie was trying to present as central element. There are no easy answer to existential question. There are no easy solutions.
I think that's what the film wanted.
I don't think it did a good job.
The heroes are plainly heroic, the villains are plainly villainous, and asking a bunch of questions and just noting "answers are hard" while not actually giving any is a complete cop-out. A damn toddler can tell you answers are hard, in the way a toddler might realize they have no idea how to handle a situation and start crying. It's not some grand revelation to note that answers are hard.
That's the artistic merit of a high school hack who thinks they're more clever than they really are.
Manchu wrote: Yep, I think that’s the thing we can draw a line under. By contrast, the PT evoked a sense of shared suffering — probably because there was no sophisticated viral marketing campaign to shift the narrative from how bad the movies were to how bad the fans are. There was a certain innocence or at least transparency to the almost surreal problems with those movies. They were, at the end of the day, super glossy indy films. But they were assuredly Star Wars films, regardless of how bad they were and whether anyone liked them. The initial hurdle with these Disney films is, there’s nothing but the exchange of money for ownership to “prove” they are SW. So with TFA, Disney got JJ to reshoot ANH. And everything one superficially associated with SW was re-presented in a just slightly different way. This caused some groans but by and large the fans were on board and even eager for more. Then comes TLJ and the whole fragile, expensive thing snapped like a thin glass wire.
I saw the whole thing with Phantom Menace and other prequels. Reaction of the fanbase was exact same. Also they were just as cynical as Disney movies in getting the merchandise marketed and making tons of money (which they did). And the prequels borrowed tons of stuff from the OT and had the most pointless, stupid fan service moments imaginable so I don't know where the idea comes that they were 'more Star Wars' or 'less superficial'.
gorgon wrote: ...speeder bikes were the original Canto Bight.
Hardly. The speeder bike chase makes sense in the context of the rest of the story, accomplishes the required plot goal of separating certain characters, and doesn't revolve around an ongoing competition to see who can be the stupidest character in the setting. And, most importantly, it doesn't take that long.
No. The speeder scene, for what it does, is long. Really long, and tedious. If they wanted to separate characters (I don't really see if it was necessary) then they could have done it in 10 seconds. The scene is there just to provide action because somebody thought that movie needed some at that point, and give merchandise range another toy to sell.
Canto Bight drags on and on and on and on and the whole thing is utterly pointless. Finn and Mandatory Love Interest™ could have stayed on board the ship and things would have worked out better for everyone. Their entire plan depends on a ridiculous technobabble plot device handwaved out of nowhere, bounces from idiotic decision to idiotic decision with a side note of childish attempts at preaching a message, and ends up accomplishing absolutely nothing besides filling up a bunch of time. Replace the entire Canto Bight sequence with a brief clip of a First Order officer commenting "lol, those cloaks aren't good enough to hide from our sensors" and nothing of value is lost.
So in top of everything else, you'd give FO new type of super-sensor capable of seeing through the cloak? Talk about all the good toys being concentrated for one side.
Point of the Canto Bight subplot is threefold:
1. They need to show part of the galaxy which is unaligned - that not everyone is either Resistance or First Order, that there are places which this war doesn't touch, in fact most of the galaxy is probably unaffected by this conflict.
2. They needed one more increasingly desperate plan from Resistance, and they needed it to fail, to really drive home that they are screwed.
3. They needed to show that First Order were not merely completely incompetent fools who just happened to own more and bigger guns. All those cloak & dagger infiltration missions they do all the time in Star Wars stories are dangerous, one might get caught - hey, they were! By a routine security measure no less. How about that.
When I watched the whole subplot happen, I wasn't too excited about it, I was like "yawn, yet another daring infiltration and sabotage subplot, this is pretty ludicrous, why should this ever work out - whoa, it didn't! Well that makes sense actually. And that shady scoundrel they met in the jail wasn't too trustworthy, whadda shocker!" Basically the subplot brought viewer back to Earth: desperate stunts don't always work.
Ever considered that the reaction might be because the not only is the TLJ a piece of festering gak but the prequals were also bad?
RJohnson was the idiot who gave the First Order all the shiny tech - but in another one of his idiot elements had to be told to turn on their own sensors
Casino World - defending this nonsesnse is impressivly brave
on your points:
1. No it just showed that one career criminal/arms dealer is neutral and that like people buy guns - wow they sure are edgy film makers,
Plus those on holiday at Casino world are not that bothered about a invasion of apparently everywhere.....likely cos half of the (like the viewers) are not really sure what is happening with this massive, instant invasion of the entire galaxy.
2. Really?? They spent a mostly tedious hour making sure that the rebels are completely and utterely screwed (mostly by their own stupdity) - and then had to do it again? Because?
3. Except it doesn't - it just underlines how incredably stupid the Rebels are - as you say - a basic procedure - but as the film hammers home every moment that no one has the mearest spark of intellegence - how does this help?
That's the artistic merit of a high school hack who thinks they're more clever than they really are.
sounds like a good description of the film makers - but I think its more like nursery school for them
I think the issue with casino world is that it enhanced an already existing problem in the new films;
Who fething cares? The Resistance and the First Order seem to care. The Republic presumably cared (though not enough to do anything about anything). But Casino world makes it feel like the rest of the universe doesn't care, and sees this presumably important conflict between good and evil as a trifle. It gets even dumber with the kids bit. The First Order isn't oppressing anyone on Casino world, rich douche bags are, so why is the Resistance resisting the First Order instead of the rich douche bags who are oppressing people? The films wants us to connect these two evils, even though there's no real connection between them and all brining it up does is beg the question who cares and what do they care about?
You don't make a movie where people constantly harp on and on about "hope" while constantly asking "who cares."
If we'd seen other planets in the galaxy first and firmly established the stakes in the central conflict of the films then casino world would be a great way to expand on the problems TLJ presents. Instead it just rams home how seemingly unimportant and infantile the Resistance's conflict with the First Order is.
LordofHats wrote: I think the issue with casino world is that it enhanced an already existing problem in the new films; If we'd seen other planets in the galaxy first and firmly established the stakes in the central conflict of the films then casino world would be a great way to expand on the problems TLJ presents. Instead it just rams home how seemingly unimportant and infantile the Resistance's conflict with the First Order is.
I also thought it was weird in the first Disney star wars film how little geopolitical (galacto-political?) context they gave to set up the current conflict; who are the New Republic, what are their principal planets, what factions exist there etc. It made the activation of the Super Death Star rather flat for me as I didn't even know which plant was destroyed or why it was important!
It's something that the prequels did very well, although it did mean they had to skip most the clone wars due to running out of screen time.
Kroem wrote: I also thought it was weird in the first Disney star wars film how little geopolitical (galacto-political?) context they gave to set up the current conflict; who are the New Republic, what are their principal planets, what factions exist there etc.
To be fair, the original SW movie didn't even show Alderon until it blew up. So we have ZERO idea of the stakes there either. We are only told it's important because it's Leia's homeworld
At least in TFA, we see the terror on the people's faces as they red beam comes to hit them.
The prequels kinda went too far in the other direction, showing TOO much "galacto-politics", which made for some kinda boring scenes.
If the sequel trilogy has failed at anything, it's that it had the opportunity to strike a balance between the two, but instead decided to double down on the OT trilogy's approach
Yea that's fair, I love all the political stuff but I can accept I'm an outlier in that regard! Just a little bit more context sprinkled around the swashbuckling space quest would have really upped the enjoyment for me.
I think that's why I enjoyed Rogue 1 so much, because the context had been so clearly established by other films I was 100% on board for the ride.
The PT was unquestionably “Star Wars” because George Lucas made it. The only claim Disney can make, by contrast, about why any of their movies are Star Wars movies is “we own it.” I’m not saying Lucas was less cynical. I am saying he wasn’t as clever about manipulating the narratives around his films.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @LoH — in re: Canto Bight — not only are the evil capitalists only vaguely connected to the FO, the movie makes clear that they are just as vaguely connected to the Resistance. DJ tells Finn, “don’t join” but the audience hears “don’t care.”
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Galef wrote: To be fair, the original SW movie didn't even show Alderon until it blew up. So we have ZERO idea of the stakes there either. We are only told it's important because it's Leia's homeworld
It’s true we are never shown life on Alderaan but that is a matter of specific emotional rather than general political context. The point is not that it’s terrible that Alderaan specifically, as opposed to some other planet, was destroyed. The point was, the Empire callously snuffed out millions of lives because their home was conveniently located for making a point to the rest of the galaxy. All of this makes sense to the audience because the movie has already clearly and succinctly explained that the Empire is an autocratic regime that wants to replace democratic consent of the governed with rule by fear. The stakes couldn’t be more clear.
If the sequel trilogy has failed at anything, it's that it had the opportunity to strike a balance between the two, but instead decided to double down on the OT trilogy's approach
No, in contrast to the OT, the DT explains nothing about who any of the factions are or what they want.
Honestly, if they had just blown up Coruscant it would have been fine. The whole "migrating capital" thing that's not even remotely alluded to in the film makes the whole thing super confusing when it really doesn't have to be.
Manchu wrote: I believe that was Chandrilla. EDIT: Nope it was some place called “Hosnian Prime.”
Coruscant is still the capital of the Empire (not to be confused with the First Order).
Also the notion of a migrating capital was almost certainly an afterthought.
Its all what now?
Wierd how they thought none of this was worth mentioning but instead wasted half an hour of the film with a windows starfield screensave.
This should have come up in TFA, not TLJ.
But yeah, it's all in the execrable Aftermath book trilogy, a boring exercise in trying to create a post-Endor environment that could feasibly lead to the galaxy we see in TFA. If it wasn't for the genuinely amusing Sinjir Rath Velus, the gay, alcoholic ex Imperial 'Loyalty Officer' turned New Republic spy I'd have no memory of any of it.
Manchu wrote: I believe that was Chandrilla. EDIT: Nope it was some place called “Hosnian Prime.”
Coruscant is still the capital of the Empire (not to be confused with the First Order).
Also the notion of a migrating capital was almost certainly an afterthought.
Its all what now?
Wierd how they thought none of this was worth mentioning but instead wasted half an hour of the film with a windows starfield screensave.
This should have come up in TFA, not TLJ.
But yeah, it's all in the execrable Aftermath book trilogy, a boring exercise in trying to create a post-Endor environment that could feasibly lead to the galaxy we see in TFA. If it wasn't for the genuinely amusing Sinjir Rath Velus, the gay, alcoholic ex Imperial 'Loyalty Officer' turned New Republic spy I'd have no memory of any of it.
That character sounds so much more interesting than anyone in either TFA or TLJ
Manchu wrote: I believe that was Chandrilla. EDIT: Nope it was some place called “Hosnian Prime.”
Coruscant is still the capital of the Empire (not to be confused with the First Order).
Also the notion of a migrating capital was almost certainly an afterthought.
The thinking most likely went like this:
original Death Star big but Starkiller Base much bigger!
original Death Star blow up one planet but Starkiller Base blow up multiple planet!
“but why would they do that?”
>scene missing<
meanwhile, some novelist or comic book writer or visual guide editot has to answer questions like that
LoL you don’t say I have spent the last 4 years thinking coruscant got blown up along with some randoms.
Which does go to show the main issue with mouse SW in that it’s all glossy bollocks with no substance.
Manchu wrote: I believe that was Chandrilla. EDIT: Nope it was some place called “Hosnian Prime.”
Coruscant is still the capital of the Empire (not to be confused with the First Order).
Also the notion of a migrating capital was almost certainly an afterthought.
The thinking most likely went like this:
original Death Star big but Starkiller Base much bigger!
original Death Star blow up one planet but Starkiller Base blow up multiple planet!
“but why would they do that?”
>scene missing<
meanwhile, some novelist or comic book writer or visual guide editot has to answer questions like that
I wish that job had fallen to Diane Carey. Her novelization of the Star Trek Enterprise pilot episode is infamous for her calling out stupid things that happen because the story is stupid.
Manchu wrote: I believe that was Chandrilla. EDIT: Nope it was some place called “Hosnian Prime.”
Coruscant is still the capital of the Empire (not to be confused with the First Order).
Also the notion of a migrating capital was almost certainly an afterthought.
Its all what now?
Wierd how they thought none of this was worth mentioning but instead wasted half an hour of the film with a windows starfield screensave.
This should have come up in TFA, not TLJ.
But yeah, it's all in the execrable Aftermath book trilogy, a boring exercise in trying to create a post-Endor environment that could feasibly lead to the galaxy we see in TFA. If it wasn't for the genuinely amusing Sinjir Rath Velus, the gay, alcoholic ex Imperial 'Loyalty Officer' turned New Republic spy I'd have no memory of any of it.
Yeah I heard Aftermath was a little sub par, my favourite review said “imagine you get AAA director with no interest in SW to write a sequel with no oversight and nobody with any interest in SW seeing the script until half way through filming, now imagine the mad scramble to connect the old to the new no mater how tenuously by writing a few novels. That’s why Aftermath exists”
Backfire wrote: I saw the whole thing with Phantom Menace and other prequels. Reaction of the fanbase was exact same.
That has not been my experience. Sure they both had the gnashing of teeth and tearing of cloth but the reasons and general tone of the reaction have been different. Just watching the discussion here the attitudes towards the PT and TLJ come across as different and this is just one little thread.
Backfire wrote: I saw the whole thing with Phantom Menace and other prequels. Reaction of the fanbase was exact same.
That has not been my experience. Sure they both had the gnashing of teeth and tearing of cloth but the reasons and general tone of the reaction have been different. Just watching the discussion here the attitudes towards the PT and TLJ come across as different and this is just one little thread.
For the prequels the only real redeeming bit is the emperor basically manipulating everybody. The characters are just poorly written and acted. Some of the fight scenes are also cool but at times there's too much crap going on at once. There's also too much CGI.
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As for TLJ one of the constant issues is trying to show "are they gonna do this or that" moments and at times either neither deciding (kylo ren maybe killing leia) or flipping several times for no reason (is luke going to sacrifice himself or not only to die via the force somehow). Another issue is the comedy is mostly out of place, the casino planet just was a waste of time and honestly it feels like the movie was oddly rushed even though it was super long. Had they had more time maybe they could've had left some stuff on the cutting room floor and had more meaningful decisions.
The main issues with TLJ have already been stated to death. Leia flying like a fairy god-mother back to the ship, constant re-hashing of the original trilogy but with slight twists (salt planet hoth), Holdo not telling the plan to her subordinates (not sure if they said a spy could be on the ship but said spy probably wouldn't wait around and be blown up), Luke dying obi-wan style vs kylo ren who is like vader to buy the rebels time to escape except it's actually a force projection but oh wait he still dies somehow, Rose preventing Finn from making a heroic sacrifice which should've led to everybody dying for a cringy af kiss scene and accidentally the holdo ship suicide which somehow doesn't murder off Finn and friends.
Oh and just so you know Holdo and Poe's bickering was supposed to be cut out of Empire Strikes Back where leia argues with Han solo and then kisses Luke and leads up to "I love you!" 'I know." You guys probably missed that but they tried to force a romance sub-plot with her and Poe before she suicided. Of course we never really got to know her so it lacked impact and i feel like most people missed it if they didn't see the Leia and Holdo "i like him." 'me too.' bit.
Eldarain wrote: It is really surprising to me how badly the last saga film hurt my enthusiasm for all things Star Wars.
I've been through disappointing films with the Prequels but this really cut deep. I think it was the themes of disdain for the existing fans and open contempt that really did it. It's one thing to make a bad movie but to create it and support it in a way where it feels like the existing fans aren't welcome was too much.
I've been immersing myself in the things I know I enjoy (old comics, video games, Clone Wars etc) which has helped but I'm still unsure if I'll even watch the future Disney films.
100% I feel like Rian Johnson just took a dump on everything that made Star Wars, Star Wars to me. I think Abrams did a good job with what he was given, then Johnson crapped on nearly everything Abrams tried to build up.
Abrams is going to have to really pull some unicorns out of his butt to save the saga. I heard that the Knights of Ren will be in the movie somehow and so that did actually get me a little excited. But I am NOT getting hyped for this next movie.
FWIW, Kylo mentions that Force projecting over a great distance will kill you in an offhand comment to Rey when they're first figuring out the mental link thing.
Well he says he knows Rey can’t be doing it because the effort would kill her. But someone is doing it. Snoke (not the most reliable source) says it was him, And the effort didn’t kill him.
Manchu wrote: Well he says he knows Rey can’t be doing it because the effort would kill her. But someone is doing it. Snoke (not the most reliable source) says it was him, And the effort didn’t kill him.
Although Snoke did not seem to be someone in particularly good health.
Would have been interesting to hear that story but feth that the Emperor is the real villain feth you Star Wars *rage*
100% I feel like Rian Johnson just took a dump on everything that made Star Wars, Star Wars to me. I think Abrams did a good job with what he was given, then Johnson crapped on nearly everything Abrams tried to build up.
Abrams is going to have to really pull some unicorns out of his butt to save the saga. I heard that the Knights of Ren will be in the movie somehow and so that did actually get me a little excited. But I am NOT getting hyped for this next movie.
I can only say that my disagreement is 180 degrees. I think Abrams is a good visual director with good grasp of timing but as a writer he is a total hack. He didn't "build up" anything in TFA. Snoke, for example, was chosen as a villain from a bunch of visual designs the studio had doodled up. Nothing deeper was designed for his character beyond "okay, this guy looks the best". I can only wholeheartedly support RJ's decisions to snuff him.
Bringing JJA in to do Star Wars was a mistake, and bringing him back to do Ep9 is yet bigger mistake. TFA was well-made but bland and emotionally flat. TLJ had bad and poorly executed scenes but it also had powerful and emotional moments and is thus much more interesting film.
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Manchu wrote: The PT was unquestionably “Star Wars” because George Lucas made it. The only claim Disney can make, by contrast, about why any of their movies are Star Wars movies is “we own it.” I’m not saying Lucas was less cynical. I am saying he wasn’t as clever about manipulating the narratives around his films.
Um, is that a compliment for Lucas, or dismissal?
Since Lucas gave permission to other people write Star Wars stories as long as they pay him (which Disney did, in spades...), I hardly see him as some sort of Canon Deity whose blessing and finishing touch is required for story to be "True Star Wars (tm)". Is Clone Wars not Star Wars? Admiral Thrawn, Mara Jade?
Have you read about what Lucas was planning for Episodes 7-9 himself? Would you have been excited, seriously?
No, in contrast to the OT, the DT explains nothing about who any of the factions are or what they want.
Yes, this is a major issue with DT. The backstory is IMO quite good in fact, but you don't see any of it in the movies and Resistance and First Order are just kind of floating in space, with no reference points to attach them to anything.
It's funny, when I first saw the trailer for TFA I thought that it was the New Republic that had built/ captured the Super Death Star and that the film would be a conflict between the hawks and doves within the New Republic over how to destroy the Imperial remnants. The New Order (and Kylo Ren) would emerge from extremest hawks who would try to force the New Republic's hand.
I kinda wish they had gone i that direction, what about you guys. Where would you have gone after the Battle of Endor with a new trilogy?
Some gems in there, but also an awful lot of absolute drivel.
From the new Canon, I like Mon Mothma's concept of demilitarising The Republic. The wars which started over Geonosis all those decades ago had to come to an end. The Galaxy was weary of it. And I think that works better than the Old EU's New Republic simply stealing the Imperial War Machine.
Some form of Imperial Remnant is essential. Of course it is. It's not Star Wars without them in some incarnation.
The Resistance kinda works as a concept - but perhaps could've done with better execution. After all, if Leia was a big time Senator, or even the leader of the New Republic? Where's the Rebellion aspect? Where's the derring do?
The Prequels (well, Clone Wars) got that about right. The Jedi were shown to be more or less a law unto themselves. Part of the military hierarchy, but not bound to it. Kinda like Space Marines, I guess. This allowed for more nefarious Cats Paw type missions (such as where we first meet Saw), and dark ops type stuff. So even though they were clearly The Good Guys, there was room for off the cuff adventure.
This is also where I find Rogue One and Rebels really got it right. They better highlighted just how small in number The Rebellion were, and in the early days how massively disjointed and disorganised. In fact, it's not really until Scariff/Yavin that it really all comes together. Before that, it was desperate, disparate cells - and they weren't necessarily pulling in the same direction.
And it really adds to the concept that The Death Star was The Empire's undoing. The Tarkin Initiative was good, in theory. Have The Biggest Stick, show you're not afraid to use it. Until The Empire makes an example (Alderran), and promptly has it's biggest and most expensive toy taken away by what, a couple of dozen Rebel Pilots with cajones so colossal it's a wonder they could fit into their ships.
That was the first clear act of defiance, and one so colossal, the wider image of The Empire as being undefeatable was eroded. That's when The Rebellion really started gathering pace.
Perhaps if Palpatine had held off for a bit. Let The Rebellion get a bit more uppity. Frame them for atrocities on certain planets, then hammer them? Who knows. It can also be argued he struck too soon after The Clone Wars. I mean, that was a massive war. And there was a lot of materiel left over. Ships, Ammo, Fuel, Weapons. All ready to be plundered in the name of defiance. Not to mention experienced Soldiers and Commanders.
I'd have left the Galaxy to get a bit softer, a bit weaker. Less fighty.
But hey. I'm going off at a tangent. Let's bring it back.
I'm not sure I could continue Star Wars and it still be Star Wars. See, with the setting up of the New Republic, there's room for political intrigue type stuff. Systems vying for primacy, Empire Loyalists looking to sabotage and infiltrate, possibly do a Palpatine themselves.
Could be cool movies/stories. But would they be Star Wars?. I don't think they would.
Kroem wrote: It's funny, when I first saw the trailer for TFA I thought that it was the New Republic that had built/ captured the Super Death Star and that the film would be a conflict between the hawks and doves within the New Republic over how to destroy the Imperial remnants. The New Order (and Kylo Ren) would emerge from extremest hawks who would try to force the New Republic's hand.
I kinda wish they had gone i that direction, what about you guys. Where would you have gone after the Battle of Endor with a new trilogy?
That would be a very interesting direction for the next film! We know the Resiste is now a couple dudes in a ship- so they're essentially finished. So take the Jedi and the remnants off to some section of the New Republic, which after someone massacring their capital and fleet should be ready and willing to fight the First Order. Perhaps Lando has formed a coalition of the ones who want to fight, and their new armada goes after the First Order. Without help, I don't know how they can explain the Resistance getting a fleet and pilots for any sort of space battles.
I used to take part in a Star Wars mud, that did the 'New Republic' era long before even Episode 3 came out.
How we typically did it was leaning into the swapped roles. - For example, having the Imperial Remnant nominally at peace with a 'fragile' New Republic but also sponsoring literal terrorism against them.
Including TFA elements, you could very well still have the First Order and Leia's force (Though The Resistance is a dumb name, and is still a dumb name in context of TFA).
No Starkiller Base, but you have various strikes. And you explicitly have the dialogue in the film of, "The Imperial Remnant does not condone the activities of the First Order." Straight up, 'fake news' the whole thing from the Remnant.
Then have Leia run off and deal with the problem herself. - And we need to see this. Not have it be in some sidebook.
MDG; don't you think that Star Wars has enough strength and depth as a setting to transcend the genre of its original outings at this point? I'd love to see more original and different films in that setting than retreading the same story beats.
Kroem wrote: Where would you have gone after the Battle of Endor with a new trilogy?
The old Thrawn trilogy of books made into films or the Rogue Squadron series. Think they would have done really well and I liked the direction they took (mostly).
MDG; don't you think that Star Wars has enough strength and depth as a setting to transcend the genre of its original outings at this point? I'd love to see more original and different films in that setting than retreading the same story beats.
Yes and no, if I'm honest.
The feel of Star Wars is important to the whole of the thing. For us fans, Rogue One proved we're open to more exploration, as has the reception of Clone Wars and Rebels (man they have to follow up on the end of Rebels! Have to!).
But, to the casual filmgoer, Star Wars means certain expectations. So whilst the background of the setting can absolutely support a spy thriller type affair (and I've high hopes for the Cassian Andor spinoff series in that regard), I'm not sure how well Joe Public would adapt to it.
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LordofHats wrote: I definitely would have gone more of a Thawn trilogy, especially since they gave us a "prequel" for the character in Rebels, which was pretty good.
There's time yet Given the end of Rebels, there's most definitely time and room to explore that further.
Me? I'm on the third Thrawn novel now, and it's tying in wonderfully with both Rebels and Rogue One. And despite knowing Thrawn's apparent fate? I'm really not sure where it's going to go.
It's a bit like 40k fiction where the authors feel forced to put some Cool Marine Combat® in every novel!
Since this is the fan thread now I'll ask a question;
What did Palpatine promise the Trade Federation, Techno Union etc. to get them to pour their wealth and assets into the Clone Wars?
They were already enormously wealthy and ran rings around the Senate...
Apparently, the Trade Federation never officially sided with the Sepratists. Officially, it was neutral during the conflict and mostly just profited massively by selling weapons to both sides throughout. Basically, they were Canto Bight, but we (thankfully) never had Benicio del Toro around to sit us down and explain it.
The Trade Federation didn't initially but just gave the CIS arms and money as well as secure access to the Outer Rim and logistical support in the free trade zones but later they joined as part of the Separatist Council.
Hmm a fairer bureaucracy sounds like a bad thing for these megacorps! It seems like an awfully big risk to take for lower taxes too.
Complete monopolies in their respective sectors might be a juicy enough prize, but only a fool would believe in a Sith Lord that laid golden eggs right? And you don't get to head up a galactic megacorp by being a fool.
Is it possible that he used the force to influence their minds like the Jedi so love to do?
I gathered what they were going for with the Trade Fed v Republic political conflict was the dark machinations of a scheming sith lord, beneath this mundane bureaucratic and political manoeuvring.
The idea is sound and worked well in some of the comics- Palapatine stages a false flag attack on his own life in order to make the case for personal body guards (the red guys rather than the blue senate guards)
The gradual eroding of freedom and expansion of power of the state head.
Stifling democratic corruption vs strong (evil!) autocratic rule
One reason it fell flat was that Sheev was never a well intentioned man, garnering as much power as he could in order to effect change. He was always a lightning throwing black robed villain, cackling madly in the wings. Thus the intention to inject a little grey morality into a previously black and white universe failed and we were left with expendable robots fighting expendable clones with boring politics.
I can still enjoy the PT as popcorn movies. Stuff irks me still like the Naboo battlefield that looked like the windows 98 screen or any reference to midichlorians.
Ah OK, so they just propped up the separatist cause to profit from the war? That's sneaky...
You guys are crazy, the build-up was the best part of the prequels! Trying to show the Clone Wars was the impossible task which they could never do justice to imo.
Manchu wrote: The Ewoks use a hang glider to drop stones on AT-ST in RotJ.
Ewoks also use hang gliders in the Ewoks live action movies and animated series.
Wow, thanks. Last time i watched it was when i would have been perhaps 5 years old, but i just remember a cave scene and a glider in it lol. Thanks appreciate it. Very nostalgic.
RJohnson was the idiot who gave the First Order all the shiny tech - but in another one of his idiot elements had to be told to turn on their own sensors
At least Johnson was not the one who gave First Order a superweapon much larger and more effective than original Death Star, despite having fraction of the resources. Giving Empire or First Order supertech just to cover plot points is lazy writing and your suggestion would have only contributed to the problem.
Cloaking devices in SW seem to work similarly to stealth in our world, where you can detect it if you know how and where to look. Which information First Order got from the Shady Guy. Much more intuitive than some new HyperSensor.
Casino World - defending this nonsesnse is impressivly brave
on your points:
1. No it just showed that one career criminal/arms dealer is neutral and that like people buy guns - wow they sure are edgy film makers,
Plus those on holiday at Casino world are not that bothered about a invasion of apparently everywhere.....likely cos half of the (like the viewers) are not really sure what is happening with this massive, instant invasion of the entire galaxy.
2. Really?? They spent a mostly tedious hour making sure that the rebels are completely and utterely screwed (mostly by their own stupdity) - and then had to do it again? Because?
3. Except it doesn't - it just underlines how incredably stupid the Rebels are - as you say - a basic procedure - but as the film hammers home every moment that no one has the mearest spark of intellegence - how does this help?
1. So did you make same complaint about Tatooine and Hutts in the OT?
And of course, it's not the 'massive invasion of the entire galaxy everywhere'. That was the whole point. Resistance vs FO is a regional conflict which just will have big implications for rest of the Galaxy.
2. It's a common and very effective storytelling method. I am sure you know multiple examples if you think about it. Sometimes a story can have heroes being screwed at every turn and every glimmer of hope is dashed by yet another turn to worse. Recent example, Battle of Winterfell from GoT. Or lets take for example Infinity Gauntlet storyline - the original one, though the MCU version had same beats too.
Casino World storyline does have problems in execution. I felt it was pretty lazily written, almost like it had stayed in draft format while screenwriter concentrated to refining other aspects of the movie. For example, Master Codebreaker was not even given a name, thus ensuring that the viewers sees him simply as a throwaway plot device instead of actual character who adds depth and feel of realism to the universe. It's equivalent of calling Jabba the Hutt just "a crime boss". "Hey Chewie, now we can pay our debt to the crime boss".
3. Rebels were not stupid, they were desperate. The mission was equivalent of delivering One Ring to Mordor. Which nearly failed because of Sauron's basic security measures...
Kroem wrote: What did Palpatine promise the Trade Federation, Techno Union etc. to get them to pour their wealth and assets into the Clone Wars?
They were already enormously wealthy and ran rings around the Senate...
As I understand it, in the case of the Trade Federation, Sidious had supported Gunray's rise to power and, at least from their perspective, had provided the political support to build up their armed forces and kept the Republic from dropping the hammer on them when they blockaded Naboo. After the blockade was broken and Gunray was put on trial, we can also presume Sidious had a hand in keeping him free and in position - Gunray also ends up being characterized amongst the separatist leaning worlds as an example of an honest businessman driven to extremes because of a fickle and out of touch Senate.
In their case specifically I think the Trade Federation supports the Separatists because Gunray does due to his ties with Sidious, if they had the complete picture, knowing that Sidious orchestrated the tax scheme they were protesting against in the first place, or what he ultimately planned to do, they may not have done so. I assume some of the big players in the separatist alliance had a similar relationship with him, and still more were legitimate neutral parties.
It's weird that we never really saw anyone who genuinely believed in the separatist cause. Lets be honest, it had quite a bit of merit to it as there was a lot wrong with the Old Republic.
The closest we got was Dooku's speech to the captured Obi Wan, but that probably wasn't sincere.
The funny thing is; just like the OT, most of the details of this stuff was added to the prequel era years later and beefed it up. I think that's one of the big struggles with the current era; since the final film isn't out yet, we're still working with pretty limited extended content. One of the things I keep feeling when I rewatch TLJ is that I really really want to play around in the world it leaves us with; particularly in videogames (not that that's ever going to happen....). One of my big fears with IX is that it will close off this era a little too quickly to really enjoy the potential.
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Kroem wrote: It weird that we never really saw anyone who genuinely believed in the separatist cause. Lets be honest, it had quite a bit of merit to it as there was a lot wrong with the Old Republic.
The closest we got was Dooku's speech to the captured Obi Wan, but that probably wasn't sincere.
That is the strangest scene.... I kind of like it but at the same time I have no idea what its trying to get across. I assume he's trying to plant some paranoia in the Jedi, but even in the expanded content it doesn't feel like it really goes anywhere.
Kroem wrote: It's weird that we never really saw anyone who genuinely believed in the separatist cause. Lets be honest, it had quite a bit of merit to it as there was a lot wrong with the Old Republic.
The closest we got was Dooku's speech to the captured Obi Wan, but that probably wasn't sincere.
Absolutely. The separatists should have had a genuine and sincere leader at some level.
RJohnson was the idiot who gave the First Order all the shiny tech - but in another one of his idiot elements had to be told to turn on their own sensors
At least Johnson was not the one who gave First Order a superweapon much larger and more effective than original Death Star, despite having fraction of the resources. Giving Empire or First Order supertech just to cover plot points is lazy writing and your suggestion would have only contributed to the problem.
Cloaking devices in SW seem to work similarly to stealth in our world, where you can detect it if you know how and where to look. Which information First Order got from the Shady Guy. Much more intuitive than some new HyperSensor.
Casino World - defending this nonsesnse is impressivly brave
on your points:
1. No it just showed that one career criminal/arms dealer is neutral and that like people buy guns - wow they sure are edgy film makers,
Plus those on holiday at Casino world are not that bothered about a invasion of apparently everywhere.....likely cos half of the (like the viewers) are not really sure what is happening with this massive, instant invasion of the entire galaxy.
2. Really?? They spent a mostly tedious hour making sure that the rebels are completely and utterely screwed (mostly by their own stupdity) - and then had to do it again? Because?
3. Except it doesn't - it just underlines how incredably stupid the Rebels are - as you say - a basic procedure - but as the film hammers home every moment that no one has the mearest spark of intellegence - how does this help?
1. So did you make same complaint about Tatooine and Hutts in the OT?
And of course, it's not the 'massive invasion of the entire galaxy everywhere'. That was the whole point. Resistance vs FO is a regional conflict which just will have big implications for rest of the Galaxy.
2. It's a common and very effective storytelling method. I am sure you know multiple examples if you think about it. Sometimes a story can have heroes being screwed at every turn and every glimmer of hope is dashed by yet another turn to worse. Recent example, Battle of Winterfell from GoT. Or lets take for example Infinity Gauntlet storyline - the original one, though the MCU version had same beats too.
Casino World storyline does have problems in execution. I felt it was pretty lazily written, almost like it had stayed in draft format while screenwriter concentrated to refining other aspects of the movie. For example, Master Codebreaker was not even given a name, thus ensuring that the viewers sees him simply as a throwaway plot device instead of actual character who adds depth and feel of realism to the universe. It's equivalent of calling Jabba the Hutt just "a crime boss". "Hey Chewie, now we can pay our debt to the crime boss".
3. Rebels were not stupid, they were desperate. The mission was equivalent of delivering One Ring to Mordor. Which nearly failed because of Sauron's basic security measures...
1. No totally different - the crime lords are part of the problem which has the Empire as the top evil. It supposed to be a whole new world with a vague new Republic, having one dodgy criminal / arms dealer say that oh no's he sells guns to military is not exactly highlighting the evil - its just pretending that they are trying to say something when the whole fillm is an empty of any message as a really empty thing.
2. Nope - this was just crap lazy writing - coparing Infinity Gauntlet to the gak pile that is TLJ is hilarious - in the former they take time and effort to make thier film - not throw it to a bunch of kids with crayons. Battle of Winterfell was awful -not TLJ awful but getting there. As i said the film was already hideously tedious - having a happy go lucky fun ride (escaping the inescapble pursuit) to casino world to do nothing, fail at that and then fail again when they get back was just wasting more time and showing how stupid the entire slow motion chase of tedium was.
3. The Rebels were not stupid If you look up stupid in the dictionary it has a joint entry for the First Order and the Rebels
The ring is agian massively different - if you can;t see the diffference I really don't know what to say or where you should get help.
Kroem wrote: It's weird that we never really saw anyone who genuinely believed in the separatist cause. Lets be honest, it had quite a bit of merit to it as there was a lot wrong with the Old Republic.
The closest we got was Dooku's speech to the captured Obi Wan, but that probably wasn't sincere.
Absolutely. The separatists should have had a genuine and sincere leader at some level.
Grevous definitely took things from manageable to completely confusing in that regard.
Kroem wrote: It's weird that we never really saw anyone who genuinely believed in the separatist cause. Lets be honest, it had quite a bit of merit to it as there was a lot wrong with the Old Republic.
The closest we got was Dooku's speech to the captured Obi Wan, but that probably wasn't sincere.
Absolutely. The separatists should have had a genuine and sincere leader at some level.
Grevous definitely took things from manageable to completely confusing in that regard.
Grievous is an interesting side-case as his legends and cannon characterizations are largely identical, and depict him as this tragic hero who helped liberate his people from an insect race only to have their victory cut short and his people marginalized by the Republic because said insect race had a Senate seat and his didn't. His tactical brilliance as described in said materials is in turn hampered by the fact that he hates the Republic and its people on a personal level.
Not that that really gels with him twirling an imaginary moustache and declaring it 'time to abandon ship'.
The Jedi were shown to be more or less a law unto themselves. Part of the military hierarchy, but not bound to it. Kinda like Space Marines, I guess. This allowed for more nefarious Cats Paw type missions (such as where we first meet Saw), and dark ops type stuff. So even though they were clearly The Good Guys, there was room for off the cuff adventure.
Thinking about it now, this is one thing that kind of bugs me about the Jedi of the PT. . . They are depicted as monks, Sherlock Holmes, Jason Bourne, the A-Team, and John Wick all rolled into one. . . No effort was there to really explain their place in the universe other than, The Force, and TRADITION (spooky scary noises!). . . They were described as advisors, but why? It seems more and more, to me at least, they they are a sort of Mary Sue organization. . . They are that main character of every YA novel out there (the I don't fit in, but I have The Special that means I can do all the things and no plot point is too strong for my plot sword and plot armor)
As for where do I think they *ought* to have gone for Ep. 7??? Well, I think we could've opened with Leia at some unknown planet negotiating a deal to have this planet join the republic (maybe for some reason, they'd been left out of the old republic?), but one of the planetary leader's assistants is an infiltrated member of FO and they attempt an Operation Valkyrie type thing (bomb under the conference table). . . I think for fan service it would be somewhat important to have Leia always remain on the "good guys" side, and being the victim of a terror attack would allow audiences to keep that view. Ep 7 is also where, even if we never saw him on screen, I'd have done some explaining of who/what Snoke is, why he's leading Kylo, and FFS I would NOT under any circumstance have had Kylo remove his helmet in the first fething movie!!!!!! Ruins the entire mystery of the character. . . Save it for EP 9 to fully reveal that Kylo is really "Ben" Solo!. . I mean, visually, with the helmet, and the light-broadsword, he's a cool character and has a bit of menace and proper villainy, right up until he takes his fething helmet off and we see he's just an angry manchild.
First of all, the New Republic and the Empire co-exist. That alone is astounding. Now, in the EU of the past we have had independent “states” like the Corporate Sector, the Hapes Consortium, the Chiss Ascendancy — but these were all what one might call the Luxembourgs of the Star Wars setting. The movies have always presumed that the galaxy is more-or-less centrally ruled by one great power. In fact, the implication is that the political justification of the Clone Wars was to prevent a major secession. So the idea that the galaxy could have more than on Great Nation is super interesting, especially they were formerly understood to be mutually exclusive.
Second, it’s interesting that the Empire can neither simply be swept away nor does it continue as a monolith. The old EU also assumed a splintered Remnant and that makes sense, considering the power structure was somewhat incoherent, except inasmuch as everyone ultimately was subject to Palpatine. Having multiple Imperial factions is neat and showing us the hardliners is the natural thing to do. The same thing applies to the Rebellion — we have to keep in mind that the GCW was not fought between the Empire and the Republic but rather between the Empire and an insurgency. How many of those insurgents can make the transition to a peaceful life? I think it’s especially fascinating to imply that Leia herself cannot stop fighting.
Unfortunately, none of this is really in the films.
I'd be super down for a film series about a bunch of Rebels who just can't stop fighting after the Battle of Jaku functionally ended the conflict. Maybe they go in for one last good fight, and maybe they find the Empire is the same way. It would be rather topical considering some world events
For me, the big mistake with setting the stage for the new trilogy was making Jakku Tatooine 2.0. Had Jakku been even a little more populated, a lot of wolrd building could have been done with background posters or monitors of Snoke or recruiters in the street looking for lost kids to shove into Stormtrooper armor. Even just people concerned the FO might attack and someone else waiving away their concerns with New Republic rhetoric would have gone a long way. I really wouldn't want the pacing of 7 to suffer for an explanation of the current political situation, but a lot more could have been done to build it in the background if the setting hadn't been such a blank canvas.
ANH didn't really need this because the Empire was an omnipresent force established from the outset as in control of everything. Much of the plot of VII is seeing the FO gain the upper hand, which is really confusing when the setting isn't a part of who they manage to overcome.
The Jedi were shown to be more or less a law unto themselves. Part of the military hierarchy, but not bound to it. Kinda like Space Marines, I guess. This allowed for more nefarious Cats Paw type missions (such as where we first meet Saw), and dark ops type stuff. So even though they were clearly The Good Guys, there was room for off the cuff adventure.
Thinking about it now, this is one thing that kind of bugs me about the Jedi of the PT. . . They are depicted as monks, Sherlock Holmes, Jason Bourne, the A-Team, and John Wick all rolled into one. . . No effort was there to really explain their place in the universe other than, The Force, and TRADITION (spooky scary noises!). . . They were described as advisors, but why? It seems more and more, to me at least, they they are a sort of Mary Sue organization. . . They are that main character of every YA novel out there (the I don't fit in, but I have The Special that means I can do all the things and no plot point is too strong for my plot sword and plot armor)
The Clone Wars and Rebels help considerably with this.
Clone Wars show that the Jedi were a varied bunch in terms of personality. United by a common philosophy, rather than creed.
Rebels shows Yoda’s regret at how easily they were convinced to go from Peace Keepers (asked, never ordered. Services available to all) to Generals. And how that ultimately corrupted them, allowing Palpatine to win,
I haven't read enough of the new books to state anything definitively but Alphabet Squadron did show the surviving Imperial fleet elements beginning to splinter off along their own loyalties - we also see instances where at least some of said elements faithfully carried out their orders for Operation Cinder only for their respective Palpy-bot to sit back and let them run out the rest of their days hunted by a vengeful Republic.
If anything it looks like Lucasfilm want to establish a more strict timeline on the dissolution of the Empire and its reconstitution from remnants to the First Order so that it only happens once and not repeatedly over and over. As a result, stories involving the Empire's ultimate inability to cope with losing the Emperor and ultimate defeat now occupy a narrow space between 4-5ABY, stories involving the formation of the New Republic, hunting down Imperial stragglers, and the reconstitution of the Empire into the First Order occupy a broader space between 4-34ABY, and the conquest of galaxy by said resurgent empire will occupy the narrative time between 34ABY and whenever Rise will take place, perhaps longer, depending on what happens.
With that in mind, the Sequel Trilogy seems to be shaping up to be a 2nd attempt at Dark Empire, with Kylo Renn occupying Luke's place in that story, and bringing with him a lot of the trappings of the Legacy of the Force era empire with him. And what comes after may eventually resemble a Legacy era style two-state galaxy.
LunarSol wrote: For me, the big mistake with setting the stage for the new trilogy was making Jakku Tatooine 2.0. Had Jakku been even a little more populated, a lot of wolrd building could have been done with background posters or monitors of Snoke or recruiters in the street looking for lost kids to shove into Stormtrooper armor. Even just people concerned the FO might attack and someone else waiving away their concerns with New Republic rhetoric would have gone a long way. I really wouldn't want the pacing of 7 to suffer for an explanation of the current political situation, but a lot more could have been done to build it in the background if the setting hadn't been such a blank canvas.
ANH didn't really need this because the Empire was an omnipresent force established from the outset as in control of everything. Much of the plot of VII is seeing the FO gain the upper hand, which is really confusing when the setting isn't a part of who they manage to overcome.
I think that is one thing the latest trilogy does fail at. I mean, if we look at places where conflict happens in the OT, and even PT:
Yavin IV - Rebel's are hiding there to minimize civilian casualties and keep out of sight of the empire
Hoth - rebels hiding to minimize civilian casualties and stay out of sight
Endor - strategically important due to shielding protecting DS Mk.2, Empire hid it here to minimize prying eyes from civilian populace/prevent rebels from blowing up until it was ready.
Naboo- battle took place, battles in the street, presumably lots of civilian casualties (off screen, of course)
Bug Planet - strategic importance due to manufacturing capabilities, basically entire populace participates, so minimal civilian casualties.
Jakku - A battle took place here because. . . reasons? Most of what is shown has already happened has little to no plausible explanation done.
Just to throw my two pennorth into the ring, I kind of dig TFA and TLJ (not seen Solo yet) and very impressed by Rogue 1.. it's just the "Look at us! We're so hip! We cast a WOMAN! And a BLACK GUY! Just like they're REAL PEOPLE!" virtue signalling PC stuff that sticks in my craw.
For what it's worth, I think Finn, Rey and Poe are good characters and actors. They deserved their roles on merit, not so Disney could go tick some boxes on a diversity quota form. That said, it's not like Star Wars is a documentary. If you're taking life lessons from those fllms... you need to rethink things
1. No totally different - the crime lords are part of the problem which has the Empire as the top evil. It supposed to be a whole new world with a vague new Republic, having one dodgy criminal / arms dealer say that oh no's he sells guns to military is not exactly highlighting the evil - its just pretending that they are trying to say something when the whole fillm is an empty of any message as a really empty thing.
2. Nope - this was just crap lazy writing - coparing Infinity Gauntlet to the gak pile that is TLJ is hilarious - in the former they take time and effort to make thier film - not throw it to a bunch of kids with crayons. Battle of Winterfell was awful -not TLJ awful but getting there. As i said the film was already hideously tedious - having a happy go lucky fun ride (escaping the inescapble pursuit) to casino world to do nothing, fail at that and then fail again when they get back was just wasting more time and showing how stupid the entire slow motion chase of tedium was.
3. The Rebels were not stupid If you look up stupid in the dictionary it has a joint entry for the First Order and the Rebels
The ring is agian massively different - if you can;t see the diffference I really don't know what to say or where you should get help.
1. Crime lords existed during the Old Republic, they existed during the Empire, they exist during the New Republic. Why would this be particularly shocking or preposterous or a 'message' or 'statement' of some kind which you think it apparently is? Hey, in very first Star Wars movie heroes employ services of a blatant criminal and killer.
2. By same logic I could say that whole battle in Wakanda was just gigantic waste of time, since Thanos was going to come anyway with enormous powers which would render the whole battle irrelevant, which it did. And I was talking about original Infinity Gauntlet storyline, the comic, which used similar storytelling structure: everything went wrong for the heroes again and again and every glimmer of hope was dashed, with nearly all heroes brutally killed or maimed until Thanos was utterly supreme - except for tiny oversight which he made and his whole scheme came crashing down. Oops. As for Battle of Winterfel, it was very well structured story with excellent poignancy but which suffered from several poor writing decisions, most notably almost none of the protagonists dying after being 30+ minutes in obvious verge of death, which lessened its overall impact.
It's common and quite basic storytelling structure. Your idea basically seems to be that the villains and heroes should always trade successes tit for tat like two pro wrestlers trading wins and putting each other over. But it is nonsensical to think that every story buildup should follow similar structure, there are number of ways to build the emotion and suspense.
3. It really seems to me that you can't tell the difference? Frodo dumped his escorts without explaining his reasons for them and proceeded alone (though Sam followed him). As a result he was caught by Shelob and then by Orcs. Sauron was not expecting them, it was just his normal security for spies etc. On the surface, whole enterprise seems exceedingly stupid, which is what Denethor called it.
First of all, the New Republic and the Empire co-exist. That alone is astounding. Now, in the EU of the past we have had independent “states” like the Corporate Sector, the Hapes Consortium, the Chiss Ascendancy — but these were all what one might call the Luxembourgs of the Star Wars setting. The movies have always presumed that the galaxy is more-or-less centrally ruled by one great power. In fact, the implication is that the political justification of the Clone Wars was to prevent a major secession. So the idea that the galaxy could have more than on Great Nation is super interesting, especially they were formerly understood to be mutually exclusive.
Second, it’s interesting that the Empire can neither simply be swept away nor does it continue as a monolith. The old EU also assumed a splintered Remnant and that makes sense, considering the power structure was somewhat incoherent, except inasmuch as everyone ultimately was subject to Palpatine. Having multiple Imperial factions is neat and showing us the hardliners is the natural thing to do. The same thing applies to the Rebellion — we have to keep in mind that the GCW was not fought between the Empire and the Republic but rather between the Empire and an insurgency. How many of those insurgents can make the transition to a peaceful life? I think it’s especially fascinating to imply that Leia herself cannot stop fighting.
Unfortunately, none of this is really in the films.
Agreed, as I said elsewhere I think the setting is really intriguing. It's sort of take of post-WW1 Europe where the Nazis (First Order) try to 'erase their shame', Versailles Treaty, Weimar republic and all that. Alas the movies have all that enormously dumbed down. In TLJ they mention Resistances possible allies, which then don't show up. But it's not elaborated who they are. When it was announced that Lando would come back in Ep IX, it raised my hopes: obviously he would be some sort of major political leader with signifant resources. But in the teaser, we only see him flying the Falcon, wearing similar clothes he had in ESB. It's like he was just older version of OT Lando, same they did with Han. Major yawner if so.
My personal theory was that in Ep IX, Resistance searches help from very last possible belligrent which could stop First Order...the Empire. Who knows, maybe remnant Empire is led by Admiral Pellaeon -types, oldschoolers who don't actually like this new First Order and the Knights of Ren. I am always intrigued by 'deal with the devil to avoid Apocalypse' -style story hooks.
I guess the complaints about 'boring political scheming' of Prequel Trilogy made them really allergic for trying to show anything more complicated than simple White Hats vs Black Hats. Which is a shame, as the political maneuvering really was not what dragged PT down. It wasn't particularly well executed, but the problems of the movies were elsewhere.
Skinflint Games wrote: Just to throw my two pennorth into the ring, I kind of dig TFA and TLJ (not seen Solo yet) and very impressed by Rogue 1.. it's just the "Look at us! We're so hip! We cast a WOMAN! And a BLACK GUY! Just like they're REAL PEOPLE!" virtue signalling PC stuff that sticks in my craw.
For what it's worth, I think Finn, Rey and Poe are good characters and actors. They deserved their roles on merit, not so Disney could go tick some boxes on a diversity quota form. That said, it's not like Star Wars is a documentary. If you're taking life lessons from those fllms... you need to rethink things
If you think they are good characters and actors...why do you also think they are just there for a diversity quota?
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: In a movie where everything was already going wrong for the resistance, the audience needed another moment of everything going wrong in order to bring them back to Earth, followed by a moment of heroic sacrifice is good, followed by everything is going wrong, heroic sacrifice is bad, heroic sacrifice is good as long as you're projecting yourself across the galaxy, by the way we actually have hope now there's only a dozen of us?
Rose stopping Finn from sacrificing himself makes much more sense when you realize that the sacrifice would have been pointless - Finn's speeder would have just been squished like a bug for no effect. Alas the movie didn't make that very clear, and much of the audience probably remembered very similar Independence Day scene where it worked (for some inexplicable reason).
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: In a movie where everything was already going wrong for the resistance, the audience needed another moment of everything going wrong in order to bring them back to Earth, followed by a moment of heroic sacrifice is good, followed by everything is going wrong, heroic sacrifice is bad, heroic sacrifice is good as long as you're projecting yourself across the galaxy, by the way we actually have hope now there's only a dozen of us?
Rose stopping Finn from sacrificing himself makes much more sense when you realize that the sacrifice would have been pointless - Finn's speeder would have just been squished like a bug for no effect. Alas the movie didn't make that very clear, and much of the audience probably remembered very similar Independence Day scene where it worked (for some inexplicable reason).
The issue with Rose stopping Finn is that she seemed a-okay, if a little torn up, with her sister bravely sacrificing herself at the start of the movie. Then she decides to stop Finn, not because it wouldn't work, but because in her mind sacrificing yourself isn't how you win, a sudden shift in opinion that has no explanation in her mostly uncharacterized characterization. We're given no context for why Rose would suddenly feel differently about this topic, so when she makes that choice it feels forced and empty.
Really they could have spent less time on Rose and Finn's excellent adventure given how little it mattered, not just in the plot but to the Characters. Finn basically repeats his arc from TFA, for some reason, and Rose doesn't seem to be along for any reason other than to give Finn a new love interest and because someone has to educate him about how evil rich people are (and I will blame her for making me criticize anyone for pointing out that the rich are douches! )
If you think they are good characters and actors...why do you also think they are just there for a diversity quota?
It's more like they're just honking their horn so much how they cast a WOMAN in the lead, unlike ALL OTHER previous movies which were made by CHAUVINIST PIGS (exaggaration deliberate). I guess there is a sub-demographic which needs to be appealed with this kind of rhetoric, and indeed I have seen hipster rag reviews who approvingly nod to these supposed 'modern' gestures. I guess those reviewers never watched the original Star Wars movies where Rebel Alliance is led by woman, and very first movie opens with Princess Leia action scene.
It's a phenomenon not restricted to PC, rather it's a need for marketing to come up with an angle which would appeal to the crowd who otherwise would be cynical about that type of movie. For example, when Saving Private Ryan came out, there was much hype how it broke new ground by being gritty war movie which did not glorify war, unlike every other war movie made before it. I mean seriously, there were tons of people saying that with a straight face.
The issue with Rose stopping Finn is that she seemed a-okay, if a little torn up, with her sister bravely sacrificing herself at the start of the movie. Then she decides to stop Finn, not because it wouldn't work, but because in her mind sacrificing yourself isn't how you win, a sudden shift in opinion that has no explanation in her mostly uncharacterized characterization. We're given no context for why Rose would suddenly feel differently about this topic, so when she makes that choice it feels forced and empty.
Really they could have spent less time on Rose and Finn's excellent adventure given how little it mattered, not just in the plot but to the Characters. Finn basically repeats his arc from TFA, for some reason, and Rose doesn't seem to be along for any reason other than to give Finn a new love interest and because someone has to educate him about how evil rich people are (and I will blame her for making me criticize anyone for pointing out that the rich are douches! )
Umm, I read it that Rose, having already lost her sister, did not want to see another close one to get killed, especially in such a pointless manner. After all, Poe had already called off the attack.
Whole scene was somewhat poorly set up. Both the unbreakable blast door and unbeatable Death Star mini-cannon were daft plot devices which were not needed in any way. Resistance could have counted on simply hiding in the abandoned base, and when found, mounted a desperate attack against superior firepower which then would have been beaten back. Same effect, point made, less confusing technobabble.
Finn repeated his TFA story arc because his character was written pretty much a loser from the start whose only asset was some inside knowledge of First Order workings. It gave few giggles in the first movie, but was counterproductive for his long term characterization prospects.
I don't recall that type of hype from the official campaign. Yes, the Internet is full of culture war angles to everything, but I don't recall Disney doing anything particularly "woke" with the advertising.
And I thought they sold Saving Private Ryan on Ted Danson in a uniform...
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I don't recall that type of hype from the official campaign. Yes, the Internet is full of culture war angles to everything, but I don't recall Disney doing anything particularly "woke" with the advertising.
And I thought they sold Saving Private Ryan on Ted Danson in a uniform...
I don't remember seeing Ted Danson in that movie. You sure you don't mean Tom Hanks?
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: In a movie where everything was already going wrong for the resistance, the audience needed another moment of everything going wrong in order to bring them back to Earth, followed by a moment of heroic sacrifice is good, followed by everything is going wrong, heroic sacrifice is bad, heroic sacrifice is good as long as you're projecting yourself across the galaxy, by the way we actually have hope now there's only a dozen of us?
Rose stopping Finn from sacrificing himself makes much more sense when you realize that the sacrifice would have been pointless - Finn's speeder would have just been squished like a bug for no effect. Alas the movie didn't make that very clear, and much of the audience probably remembered very similar Independence Day scene where it worked (for some inexplicable reason).
How do we know it wouldn't have worked? Finn is our source of information on FO technology. He knows about their new tech. He knows they're deploying the battering ram cannon. He knows the specs, certainly better than Rose.
He seems to think it is going to work when they're getting suited up. He seems to think it will work when Poe calls off the attack (did their original plan involve more then a suicide ramming run or did they literally just decide to drive up to the enemy without guns or any means of.... engaging in violence against their enemy?)
Rose never says it wouldn't have worked, just that it wasn't the right thing to do.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I don't recall that type of hype from the official campaign. Yes, the Internet is full of culture war angles to everything, but I don't recall Disney doing anything particularly "woke" with the advertising.
And I thought they sold Saving Private Ryan on Ted Danson in a uniform...
I don't remember seeing Ted Danson in that movie. You sure you don't mean Tom Hanks?
My interest in Star Wars is mostly as a cultural touchstone.
I am not a super-fan, but the kids liked the movies and assorted toys and what not. I enjoyed all of the movies to some degree.
I didn’t like that the latest trilogy rehashed episode 4. I mean, that for me was incredibly disappointing. To that end, I liked episode 8 more than 7. There is some dumb gak in there, it’s almost like watching episode 5 (Hoth?) in some kind of weird tesseract version where it’s inside out and backwards, but you can still see a lot of direct correlations.
I look at them as popcorn movies in space. I further view it as science fantasy... heavy on the fantasy. Once magic is involved, you really just have to go with it. I genuinely dislike that it feels like the exact same movies ground up and stuffed in a sausage casing being sold as new movies.
But aside from that, it’s still Star Wars. It’s still the chosen one gone off to battle the Dark King. Dad rescues offspring from the (Next) Dark King, sacrificing himself so that blah-blah-blah.
I sound more down on it than I am. I wanted to see Vader’s story in the Prequels. I got that. Regardless of subjective quality, I got something I wanted. The latest trilogy did not deliver a new story in that universe. It inexplicably reset the story to episode 4. I had no particular interest in that. I’ve seen it already.
I’m excited by episode 9. I’m looking forward to it. I’m hoping it tells a new story. Hell, the rise of Kylo to become the next Not-Sith Master. I’m down for that. Skywalker Jr decides to join him. Together they build that which she sought to oppose. They get nasty and breed a long line of super-powerful not-sith-not-Jedi and become philosopher kings. Inbred, fugly philosopher kings.
Didn’t see that one coming! That’s what I’m looking for. Not the incest, but something new and unexpected. That’s what I’m hoping for.
Haha I think that's a little more Dune that Star Wars but damn if that wouldn't be cool.
I think Kylo Ren is my favourite part of the new Star Wars. Compared to the stoic Darth Vader and the self assured Dooku, he feels a lot more human. I love how he is angry, conflicted, self-doubting and feels weighed down by the expectations of others but manages to fight on and succeed despite the odds. Maybe that's a bit millennial of me... but he's got more personality than any of the heroes at this point!
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I don't recall that type of hype from the official campaign. Yes, the Internet is full of culture war angles to everything, but I don't recall Disney doing anything particularly "woke" with the advertising.
As I said I was deliberately exaggarating, but they did comment it to that effect, see here for example.
How do we know it wouldn't have worked? Finn is our source of information on FO technology. He knows about their new tech. He knows they're deploying the battering ram cannon. He knows the specs, certainly better than Rose.
He seems to think it is going to work when they're getting suited up. He seems to think it will work when Poe calls off the attack (did their original plan involve more then a suicide ramming run or did they literally just decide to drive up to the enemy without guns or any means of.... engaging in violence against their enemy?)
Rose never says it wouldn't have worked, just that it wasn't the right thing to do.
One of the writers (Johnson himself? Don't remember) said later that Finns suicide drive would not have worked. I agree the movie itself hardly makes it clear.
Kroem wrote: Haha I think that's a little more Dune that Star Wars but damn if that wouldn't be cool.
I think Kylo Ren is my favourite part of the new Star Wars. Compared to the stoic Darth Vader and the self assured Dooku, he feels a lot more human. I love how he is angry, conflicted, self-doubting and feels weighed down by the expectations of others but manages to fight on and succeed despite the odds. Maybe that's a bit millennial of me... but he's got more personality than any of the heroes at this point!
I think it's because he's coming from a very different place.
Dooku fell because he was disillusioned with the Jedi Order. He saw the corruption in the Senate, and the Jedi just sitting by. It's not hard to turn good intentions to dark in those circumstances.
Anakin was much the same, but with near life-long manipulation by The Man With The Plan, who ensured the flaws in the Jedi Order were writ especially large on a galactic scale (peace keepers turned generals)
Kylo Ben Ren Solo? Just an angry kid, with a legacy he desperately wants to live up to. If anything, they've done a far better job showing his conflicted nature than they ever managed with Anakin, and they've not showed a lot - just showed the right stuff. That we the audience (well, part of it at least) still wonder if he can be redeemed, or even wants to be redeemed speaks to that.
Yea I'm not sure whether they will redeem him or not. It's Disney so maybe?
I never thought but Dooku and Anakin are actually quite similar, now I wish they had put a scene in Phantom Menace where Qui Gon Jin goes to see his old master on Corusant for advice after the council refuses to train Anakin. He can rail against the corruption of the council and Qui Gon would be unsettled at his master's loss of his patient wisdom.
It's more like they're just honking their horn so much how they cast a WOMAN in the lead, ...
Are they? Where?
Ah, you see this one person connected with the production said something on Twitter.....
Kroem wrote: Haha I think that's a little more Dune that Star Wars but damn if that wouldn't be cool.
I think Kylo Ren is my favourite part of the new Star Wars. Compared to the stoic Darth Vader and the self assured Dooku, he feels a lot more human. I love how he is angry, conflicted, self-doubting and feels weighed down by the expectations of others but manages to fight on and succeed despite the odds. Maybe that's a bit millennial of me... but he's got more personality than any of the heroes at this point!
Ren's villain arc is one of the saving graces for me. He starts off being a pale imitation of Darth Vader, but that's entirely intentional. And then he arguably proves a better Sith than Vader, by supplanting his master. And the Emperor talked a lot about the power of anger and hate, but he's the only Sith character who really conveys that.
My big worry for Ep9 is that they'll cave in to the fangirls and redeem him with the power of love.
greatbigtree wrote: My interest in Star Wars is mostly as a cultural touchstone.
I am not a super-fan, but the kids liked the movies and assorted toys and what not. I enjoyed all of the movies to some degree.
I didn’t like that the latest trilogy rehashed episode 4. I mean, that for me was incredibly disappointing. To that end, I liked episode 8 more than 7. There is some dumb gak in there, it’s almost like watching episode 5 (Hoth?) in some kind of weird tesseract version where it’s inside out and backwards, but you can still see a lot of direct correlations.
I look at them as popcorn movies in space. I further view it as science fantasy... heavy on the fantasy. Once magic is involved, you really just have to go with it. I genuinely dislike that it feels like the exact same movies ground up and stuffed in a sausage casing being sold as new movies.
But aside from that, it’s still Star Wars. It’s still the chosen one gone off to battle the Dark King. Dad rescues offspring from the (Next) Dark King, sacrificing himself so that blah-blah-blah.
I sound more down on it than I am. I wanted to see Vader’s story in the Prequels. I got that. Regardless of subjective quality, I got something I wanted. The latest trilogy did not deliver a new story in that universe. It inexplicably reset the story to episode 4. I had no particular interest in that. I’ve seen it already.
I’m excited by episode 9. I’m looking forward to it. I’m hoping it tells a new story. Hell, the rise of Kylo to become the next Not-Sith Master. I’m down for that. Skywalker Jr decides to join him. Together they build that which she sought to oppose. They get nasty and breed a long line of super-powerful not-sith-not-Jedi and become philosopher kings. Inbred, fugly philosopher kings.
Didn’t see that one coming! That’s what I’m looking for. Not the incest, but something new and unexpected. That’s what I’m hoping for.
Man this hit home for me so hard. I don't think I've ever seen someone else so succinctly describe how I feel about the sequel trilogy. I too hated the farce awakens more than last Jedi, the latter at the very least has some stuff in there that isn't ripped straight from the OT. I don't think it's good by any means, but it was more palatable to me than TFA: ANH redux. As someone who dabbled in the EU it's especially disappointing because it clearly is totally possible to tell new and good stories in that setting but instead we must watch the original films over again. Le sigh
I think that is one thing the latest trilogy does fail at. I mean, if we look at places where conflict happens in the OT, and even PT:
Yavin IV - Rebel's are hiding there to minimize civilian casualties and keep out of sight of the empire
Hoth - rebels hiding to minimize civilian casualties and stay out of sight
Endor - strategically important due to shielding protecting DS Mk.2, Empire hid it here to minimize prying eyes from civilian populace/prevent rebels from blowing up until it was ready.
Naboo- battle took place, battles in the street, presumably lots of civilian casualties (off screen, of course)
Bug Planet - strategic importance due to manufacturing capabilities, basically entire populace participates, so minimal civilian casualties.
Jakku - A battle took place here because. . . reasons? Most of what is shown has already happened has little to no plausible explanation done.
OT had wordbuilding through civilians- Luke was initially a civilian dragged into the conflict through chance/the will of the force.
IV: We are told the Evil galactic empire controls the galaxy. They control the senate. They dissolve the senate to rule through pure force. Luke, a citizen says he hates the empire. Leia is part of a political and a military resistance movement. Stormtroopers are seen interacting with citizens and informants in Mos Eisely. Rest of the film is hidden bases and spacestations.
V: Rebs are hiding but a civilian installation is dragged into the conflict. we see first hand how the Empire strong arms a private business to get what it wants. Cloud City populace eventually evacuates rather than risk imperial retribution for Lando's defiance.
VI: Cuddly sentient teddy bears are dragged into a space conflict.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I don't recall that type of hype from the official campaign. Yes, the Internet is full of culture war angles to everything, but I don't recall Disney doing anything particularly "woke" with the advertising.
As I said I was deliberately exaggarating, but they did comment it to that effect, see here for example. .
There is absolutely nothing in that article that even hints at the sort of attitude you were suggesting. It quite simply says that people were asking for more strong, female characters, and Disney said, 'Yup, we'll have plenty of strong, female characters.'
He ended up going back and doing the entire prequel trilogy with each film getting further and further from the originals. However, I thought it was a cool format. So in the style of that format. Here is how I would fix TLJ. (I liked TFA and honestly, don't know what I would change even if I wanted to make it "more original and less ANH")
The first off, I don't think I would change any of the Luke/Rey stuff or the Rey/Kylo stuff. I think it all worked very well for it's intended purpose.
I would, however, mess around with all the Holdo, Poe, Finn, Rose stuff. Right off the bat, I think I would ditch Holdo as a leader of the resistance after Leia dies. Give it to Admiral Ackbar. Have Ackbar do all the Holdo stuff. Then have Holdo as a subordinate that helps to cover for Poe/Finn/Rose and the secret mission. Send Poe with Finn and Rose on the mission. He is established as a spec ops guy in the comics. He knows how to handle a mission like this.
On the casino planet. Give us a tease that Lando was the man they were looking for, or even better. Make DJ actually be the guy we were looking for. Rather than horses, make it pod racers. Make the slaves the pilots of the pod racers. Now we have actually rescued the slaves during the chase sequence and we have that little bit of extra nod to the prequels.
When everyone converges back on the big "not a superstar destroyer" we can have everyone get captured and what you know? Rey is in the prison cell as well maybe her confrontation with Snoke and Kylo Ren got her thrown in jail. Then when Admiral Ackbar suicides the capital ship. We get an escape sequence with the main cast stealing a shuttle and retreating to the base with the rest of the resistance. (Which Holdo would have informed Poe and the rest about before they left on their mission as being Ackbar's big plan.)
Once we get down to the planet itself. The main cast finds that the FO has already got the Resistance under siege in their mountain base. Rey senses Luke nearby and we see the Millennium Falcon landed by the secret exit. The main cast finds Chewie and Luke waiting by the secret exit and together he and Rey clear the cave in to make it accessible. Inside we find a still comatose Leia whom Luke brings out of the coma using his force powers (because why not?). Then he announces that he is going outside. After debate, they end up forming a plan, and we get the sand skimmer scene only this time posing solely as a distraction to get the stolen shuttle and Millenium falcon boarded up and off-world. Poe and rose are on the shuttle because only they can fly it, Chewie and Rey in the falcon for the same reason. This leaves us with Finn, Luke, and some other random volunteers on a suicide mission to distract the first order. They all die in the ensuing action sequence. I'm torn on if I think luke should fight outside of his skimmer. As an old man, I think it makes sense he wouldn't try to duel his apprentice 1 on 1.
Anyway, I personally think that would have made for a better film. I'm curious to hear what you armchair directors would have done.
I agree that Kylo is the most interesting character. Most conflicted, most character development.
Star Wars seems to be able to create great, (somewhat) relatable villains. I don’t think it’s a “millennial” thing to root for him. I was initially put off by his whiny indecision. That is a character trait I can’t stand in general. I love that...
Spoiler:
just in case.
He decides to reject both previous paths of Sith and Jedi. He decides to create a new path, and is part of my greatest hope for “something new” in episode 9.
And in doing so is forging his own destiny. Rey still pretty much feels like she’s along for the ride. To be fair, Luke didn’t really come into his own until the 3rd movie either... so there’s a new hope yet that her character will continue to develop.
I really enjoyed the whole relationship between Rey and Kylo in TLJ and exploring the nature of light side v dark side. It’s still not clear whether they’ll redeem Kylo (or could even have Rey fall) and I think Kylo’s “burn the past, because it’s caused me nothing but pain” is one of the best villain motivations they’ve had in the whole series.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was also disappointed that they backed out of the “you don’t need the Jedi teachings, just be a good person” angle that they seemed to be going for.
I'm preparing myself for a big disappointment in Rise of Skywalker. Not from any story point, but because the previews don't show Rey with a LightSTAFF. It's clear she rebuilt Excalib...I mean the Skywalker saber, but it was a missed opportunity to not have her build it into her staff and incorporate that into her existing fighting style.
It's one of the cool things I like about the lightsaber duels in SW, each movie adds something new, usually in the form of a unique saber design. New Hope introduced light sabers, ESB showed us what a true duel could look like (not just 2 old guys poking each other). RotJ gave us the Green saber (my favorite saber color), TPM gave us the double bladed saber and arguably the best duel on screen, AotC gave us Dooku's curved handle saber, RotS gave us Grievous's 4-armed robo-dueling and TFA gave us Kylo's hilt blades and that Storm Trooper with the anti-lightsaber baton. And even though TLJ didn't give us a new saber, Snoke's guards had those cool weapons and the duel was my second favorite behind TPM.
I was really hoping the Rey would eventually get a LightStaff to continue the tradtion, but it doesn't look like that's gonna happen
Rey has the texts - but not the 'Wisdom' of the Jedi order.
Consider how some people follow a given religion, and how far their actions and take on that given religion can be from their given holy text's words and theme.
When was the last time a Jedi actually read those books? When was the last time a Jedi actually checked his Master was indeed wise and knowledgeable?
With the dogma stripped away (no love life, stop caring about people. No, not those people. Those people), Rey has more freedom to learn for herself.
insaniak wrote: I certainly wouldn't have removed the scene with Luke defeating his former apprentice from a different star system. That's the best part of TLJ.
I had a hard time deciding if I wanted to keep the force projection part or have him there in the flesh. I just think having Luke there in flesh is somehow the "stronger" choice.
He decides to reject both previous paths of Sith and Jedi. He decides to create a new path, and is part of my greatest hope for “something new” in episode 9.
I really liked this part of TLJ but for different reasons: Rey and Kylo are both successors to previous generations that believed they had all the answers but ultimately failed. Kylo argues passionately that to avoid failing similarly they must reject everything about that previous generation and strike out on their own, while Rey in turn commits to learning about the previous generation's successes (and failures thanks to a reality check from Luke) and chart her course that way. Both philosophies are informed by their contrasting backstories: Kylo's being born into a storied legacy and becoming disillusioned with it, Rey having no connection to her family and the way that makes her feel insecure about her identity; as well as their ability to follow through with their actions: Rey clearly leans more about the Force in the intervening time leading into Rise, while Kylo's inability to see past his hated Jedi mentor and see all the clues he was being tricked ultimately results in there being a next movie at all.
I'm still holding my breath that Rey isn't actually a nobody and that she is indeed connected more that just being another lame "chosen one". I mean, we only "know" she's a nobody because Kylo saw a vision....that was most likely given to him by Snoke.
That "revelation" gives Kylo power over Rey and Rey only believes it because it's a fear she has, so well within the perimeters of a deceptive manipulation on Snoke's part. I know many people want there to be less family connection in SW, but it is officially the SKYWALKER saga. There needs to be some Skywalker drama, and Kylo can't be the only one now that Luke is gone. In the OT, that drama revolved around a father and lost son, then later his sister. Uncle/Nephew drama just isn't as impactful. But cousin drama, in which both are descended from the "chosen one" and both on opposite sides of the Force is interesting. It can be used to bring Anakin's legacy into balance. Kylo being the darkside son of Anakin's daughter and Rey being the lightside daughter of Anakin's son.
I'm also really hoping for Force Ghost Anakin played by Hayden in Rise of Skywalker. George Lucas replacing the older actor in RotJ always bothered me, but if Hayden reprises the role to smack Kylo upside the head (metaphorically, of course) would be a good payoff for that change
I hear that, but I don't really agree. Star Wars fans are weirdly obsessed with the characters' bloodlines and its something I blame the old EU's insistence that every force sensitive they ever introduced had to be the secret grandkid of some Jedi hero in order to lend them some sense of legitimacy, but it's something that George rejected softly with the 'Jedi forbid love' thing and Disney appeared to reject stiffly with the little orphan Jedi and Rey's apparent (so far) lack of pedigree.
Even if midichlorians muddle the waters a bit.
Rey comes into the story carrying the same baggage as those fans: She believes she needs to be from someone of significance in order to be someone of significance or else she doesn't matter. We see this in both movies: in the way she hollowly insists her parents will come back despite being otherwise grounded and aware, in the way she tries to make sense of her connection to the force by trying to figure out how her parents factor in, and in both films where being confronted with the fact that they were never going to come back for her brings her to tears.
So I for one, hope she remains a 'nobody' because an assertion that anybody can be a Jedi is a powerful one.
But hey, maybe she'll turn out to be a clone from Palpatine's Killer Bee project or something.
I think Solo is a better film than either of the new Episodes...
Rogue One was worth reviving the IP on its own.
I'm not a huge Star Wars fan, so I'm more forgiving of flaws, particularly if they're lore-based. My expectations of each film are middling and I'll see them in the cinema towards the end of their run when the screen is empty and the ticket price has gone down provided reviews don't suggest an absolute turkey. So far the Episodes have met those expectations.
