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I really like Return of the Jedi :(

Now I feel like a weirdo. Well, slightly more than usual.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I really like Return of the Jedi :(

Now I feel like a weirdo. Well, slightly more than usual.

I like the prequels and I like Jar Jar. There, now that there's someone weirder around you can feel relatively normal again.

At least in my experience, your age at the time of ROTJ's release tends to color your perception of it. It's not the single determining factor but rather one common one. I was young enough to like the ewok's cutesy introduction (and sniffle at their deaths) and didn't mind their inclusion one bit. That doesn't change the fact that I think ROTJ is by far the weakest movie of the original trilogy (but still great)... and yet still noticeably better than any Star Wars movie that has come since. Many folks I've talked to that were older (teenage and up) when ROTJ don't agree. Similarly, while I think there are positive aspects in all three prequels, as a whole it's significantly worse as a trilogy with only Revenge of the SIth approaching what I'd call a good movie. Of the Disney Dark Times movies, only Rogue One approaches what I'd consider an average quality movie. YMMV.

 warboss wrote:
At least in my experience, your age at the time of ROTJ's release tends to color your perception of it. It's not the single determining factor but rather one common one. I was young enough to like the ewok's cutesy introduction (and sniffle at their deaths) and didn't mind their inclusion one bit. That doesn't change the fact that I think ROTJ is by far the weakest movie of the original trilogy (but still great)... and yet still noticeably better than any Star Wars movie that has come since. Many folks I've talked to that were older (teenage and up) when ROTJ don't agree. Similarly, while I think there are positive aspects in all three prequels, as a whole it's significantly worse as a trilogy with only Revenge of the SIth approaching what I'd call a good movie. Of the Disney Dark Times movies, only Rogue One approaches what I'd consider an average quality movie. YMMV.

I would very much agree with your notion that age at the time of release matters. I was also young when ROTJ came out, had EWOK books, watched EWOK cartoons etc. Loved the movie with Good Triumphing over evil, and at the time did not like Empire Strikes back because the bad guys won. For me Phantom Menace will forever be the worst Star Wars film. I was a senior in High School when it released, and had such high expectations for it based on my childhood Nostalgia, the promise I saw in the character Darth Maul etc. All of that was betrayed and I hated the movie. Everything after that seemed better to me simply because I no longer had high expectations. I will also note that I am not a huge Star Wars fan. I liked the original movies, but I did not read the books, did not watch clone wars etc. So I did not have huge built up expectations for the new trilogy.

 warboss wrote:
At least in my experience, your age at the time of ROTJ's release tends to color your perception of it. It's not the single determining factor but rather one common one. I was young enough to like the ewok's cutesy introduction (and sniffle at their deaths) and didn't mind their inclusion one bit. That doesn't change the fact that I think ROTJ is by far the weakest movie of the original trilogy (but still great)... and yet still noticeably better than any Star Wars movie that has come since. Many folks I've talked to that were older (teenage and up) when ROTJ don't agree. Similarly, while I think there are positive aspects in all three prequels, as a whole it's significantly worse as a trilogy with only Revenge of the SIth approaching what I'd call a good movie. Of the Disney Dark Times movies, only Rogue One approaches what I'd consider an average quality movie. YMMV.

Perhaps there's something to the age factor. I saw it as a young teen in the theaters, and even then I came away...not disappointed exactly, but somewhat underwhelmed. The Ewoks are part of it, but it's the lazy performances, formula feel, and overall emotional flatness (especially in comparison to TESB, which really soars emotionally) that kept the story from carrying me along like it obviously did for some people. Maybe if I had been younger, the sheer wonder of it would have won the day and those first impressions would still be coloring my opinions. *shrug*

 gorgon wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Your point being? ROTJ is weakest of the OT yes. It's still light years ahead of sequels in term of script, direction and performance. Only thing it loses is in CGI department. But that's the least important part of movies.

There's grading in quality. Just because it's weakest of OT doesn't mean it's equal to the trash that the sequels are. Sequels don't even try to create new. I basically had seen last jedi 20+ years ago...Except by better version.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I question your ability to look at RotJ with any objectivity if you believe that's true.

Eps. 7 and 8 have good performances and are well-directed,

You're entitled to your opinion, but I question your ability to look at TLJ with any objectivity if you believe that's true.

I've never thought the Ewoks were all that important. I was pretty young when the movie came out, but didn't actually see it until I was older and I guess I never fixated on them that much one way or another. There not the focus of the drama of the finale, which is really more about Luke's confrontation with the Emperor. I've always liked that the finale manages to have a few different kinds of tension going on. In many ways its a bigger version of the trash compactor, where 3PO's comedic struggle with Stormtroopers breaking is contrasted with the desperation of the crew getting crushed. Ewoks are just another random creature we meet; they're really not what the finale is "about".

 Henry wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Your point being? ROTJ is weakest of the OT yes. It's still light years ahead of sequels in term of script, direction and performance. Only thing it loses is in CGI department. But that's the least important part of movies.

There's grading in quality. Just because it's weakest of OT doesn't mean it's equal to the trash that the sequels are. Sequels don't even try to create new. I basically had seen last jedi 20+ years ago...Except by better version.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I question your ability to look at RotJ with any objectivity if you believe that's true.

Eps. 7 and 8 have good performances and are well-directed,

You're entitled to your opinion, but I question your ability to look at TLJ with any objectivity if you believe that's true.

Agreed - IMO TLJ is one othe worst directed films I have seen in the last few years - the script, plot, characters, imagery and pace are all awful.

Its not a bad "star Wars film" its a very bad film full stop in every way that actually matters.

If fur cloth had been cheaper, we'd have had Wookies.

For me, it was speeder scene in Endor in RotJ which was the first "well not everything Star Wars is great" -moment for me. It's just so BORING and pointless. Ewoks kinda suck, never liked them much even as a kid and looking them kill Stormtroopers with obvious toy weapons is a turnoff but at least they sort of provide a story point. RotJ has similar issue which prequels later had - there was wacky comedic Ewok scenes running concurrently with very dark and emotional Throne room scene. Ewoks should have been at least bit more serious.

Worst SW movie for me is Attack of the Clones. It has NOT aged well. After first viewing I thought "well at least the glaring problems of the Phantom Menace were fixed" but after subsesquent viewings I now rate it below Ep1. Without Jar-Jar you notice how terrible the characters are.

I don't like Rogue 1 much. It is well done but feels just so pointless. It's a perfect example of "Rube Goldberg plot point expansion story" (see also: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child). It didn't NEED to be explained how Rebel Alliance gained the blueprints, and the idea that Death Stars weakness was purposedfully designed in just takes away from Alliance's achievments. They won because somebody in the Imperium rigged them to win...woo hoo.

Getting back to topic, I can point one obvious reason why upcoming SW movie seems to lack buzz. Ending of TLJ left little intrigue. If you compare to ending of ESB, there was plenty of intrigue: how will Luke deal with shocking knowledge that Vader is his father? How will they rescue Han? Rebel Alliance seems to have a fleet, maybe we finally see a large space battle? Even the prequels ended in nice intriguing moments: there was ever expanding plot of Palpatine. TFA ended in sort of cliffhanger with Luke finally being found, will he pick up his old lightsaber? Also 'Net was abuzz with fan theories about Snoke's and Rey's origins, although it turned out they were not even intended to be mysteries.

But end of TLJ, there is pretty much nothing of that. Everybody who is left of Resistance is huddled on a small spaceship. Resistance has no fleet so there's not going to be a huge space battle. They have no army so there's not going to be a huge surface battle. Their allies decided not to show up. Luke and Snoke are dead. I suppose there is still little mystery of the Knights of Ren, but they have been hardly mentioned.

Backfire wrote:
For me, it was speeder scene in Endor in RotJ which was the first "well not everything Star Wars is great" -moment for me. It's just so BORING and pointless. Ewoks kinda suck, never liked them much even as a kid and looking them kill Stormtroopers with obvious toy weapons is a turnoff but at least they sort of provide a story point. RotJ has similar issue which prequels later had - there was wacky comedic Ewok scenes running concurrently with very dark and emotional Throne room scene. Ewoks should have been at least bit more serious.

This. . . As an earlier poster mentioned: they use guerrilla tactics, primitive weapons, the terrain and, blah blah blah to take out a highly advanced ground force of skilled/trained dudes.

The concept itself isn't bad. I could buy into it if we're talking about a battle involving Tusken Raiders, but not bargain bin Manga style'd short/cute wookees

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
This. . . As an earlier poster mentioned: they use guerrilla tactics, primitive weapons, the terrain and, blah blah blah to take out a highly advanced ground force of skilled/trained dudes.

The concept itself isn't bad. I could buy into it if we're talking about a battle involving Tusken Raiders, but not bargain bin Manga style'd short/cute wookees

There were tons of limitations involved with having Ewoks played by little people in cumbersome fur suits. Today, they'd be CGI and would move and behave faster and more fiercely, like the little Wookies they were envisioned to be. It's not the concept, it's the actual visuals that make the whole enterprise seem so silly.

 Henry wrote:
You're entitled to your opinion, but I question your ability to look at TLJ with any objectivity if you believe that's true.

Objectively? Rian Johnson is a good director who coaxed good performances out of the cast. The visuals were good, and the film balanced action with emotion and quieter sequences. He also attempted to make the movie about something beyond merchandising. It's a WELL-MADE film that just isn't to some peoples' tastes as a SW film.

'But what about Canto Bight? The pacing! Oh, the pacing!!'

Probably the weakest sequence of the movie, BUT...

Backfire wrote:
For me, it was speeder scene in Endor in RotJ which was the first "well not everything Star Wars is great" -moment for me. It's just so BORING and pointless.

...speeder bikes were the original Canto Bight. Pod races were the sequel in the line of drawn-out, purposeless speed/chase sequences. If Johnson erred there, at least he goofed in a Star Wars kind of way. The chase for Zam Wesell escapes mention here by being shorter (at least how it felt) and having a purpose.

I actually don't dislike Canto Bight as much on rewatch; at least not the chase sequence. It's a tag long, but comes at a time when the movie needs something happening. For me, the problematic bits are Rose and DJ's little soap boxes, which echo some of the worst of the prequels' little soliloquies.

No, it’s not just a matter of disliking what happens in TLJ. The film is also written poorly in terms of its ideas and structure. The cinematography, editing, and lighting are all good, however, which makes it better than any of the prequels.

Regarding weird pacing of TLJ, I am pretty sure than Johnson was told "put a land battle and space battle scenes in. We didn't have those in the previous one and we need to sell these new spaceship, walker and speeder toys".

Objectively? Rian Johnson is a good director who coaxed good performances out of the cast. The visuals were good, and the film balanced action with emotion and quieter sequences. He also attempted to make the movie about something beyond merchandising. It's a WELL-MADE film that just isn't to some peoples' tastes as a SW film.

Thats not objective in any sense at all. You like the film and defend it - fair enough - but lets not pretend you are any more objective than I, the critics or anyone else that expresses an opinion on the film.

Equally I can say with the same authority as you that its terrible film that is apparently to some people's taste - again however I don't limit my view on it to being a Good or Bad Star Wars- I think its a terrible film because of its awful plot, characters, placing and structure. The visual were lacklustre, there is little to no emotional content and such as this is paltry and badly written and performed.

The move is about nothing.

If the same Director churned out a movie of this poor quality about youth culture in inner city London or The campaigns of Caesar it would still be gak.

If Jonson was told to put a space battle in and a land battle it was probably because they saw the rest and realised that there was no content, no fun, no message, nothing - and perhaps they could divert the attention of the audience with that for a bit of the turgid three hours they would be wasting.

Canto Bright was just another poor sequence in a badly written and directed film.

 gorgon wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
This. . . As an earlier poster mentioned: they use guerrilla tactics, primitive weapons, the terrain and, blah blah blah to take out a highly advanced ground force of skilled/trained dudes.

The concept itself isn't bad. I could buy into it if we're talking about a battle involving Tusken Raiders, but not bargain bin Manga style'd short/cute wookees

There were tons of limitations involved with having Ewoks played by little people in cumbersome fur suits. Today, they'd be CGI and would move and behave faster and more fiercely, like the little Wookies they were envisioned to be. It's not the concept, it's the actual visuals that make the whole enterprise seem so silly.

I know one of the recent video games had a PVP "Stormtrooper patrol vs Ewoks in a dark forest" mode, and from what I've seen, it's pants-wettingly terrifying as the Stormtroopers.

 gorgon wrote:
...speeder bikes were the original Canto Bight.

Hardly. The speeder bike chase makes sense in the context of the rest of the story, accomplishes the required plot goal of separating certain characters, and doesn't revolve around an ongoing competition to see who can be the stupidest character in the setting. And, most importantly, it doesn't take that long. Canto Bight drags on and on and on and on and the whole thing is utterly pointless. Finn and Mandatory Love Interest™ could have stayed on board the ship and things would have worked out better for everyone. Their entire plan depends on a ridiculous technobabble plot device handwaved out of nowhere, bounces from idiotic decision to idiotic decision with a side note of childish attempts at preaching a message, and ends up accomplishing absolutely nothing besides filling up a bunch of time. Replace the entire Canto Bight sequence with a brief clip of a First Order officer commenting "lol, those cloaks aren't good enough to hide from our sensors" and nothing of value is lost.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Objectively? Rian Johnson is a good director who coaxed good performances out of the cast. The visuals were good, and the film balanced action with emotion and quieter sequences. He also attempted to make the movie about something beyond merchandising. It's a WELL-MADE film that just isn't to some peoples' tastes as a SW film.

Thats not objective in any sense at all. You like the film and defend it - fair enough - but lets not pretend you are any more objective than I, the critics or anyone else that expresses an opinion on the film.

Equally I can say with the same authority as you that its terrible film that is apparently to some people's taste - again however I don't limit my view on it to being a Good or Bad Star Wars- I think its a terrible film because of its awful plot, characters, placing and structure. The visual were lacklustre, there is little to no emotional content and such as this is paltry and badly written and performed.

The move is about nothing.

Worse, its about how its about nothing- that's where the point of the film lies, the writer/director denying there is any point to the film at all, both in the film and outside it. From the 'both sides' obvious bull-gak, to the very beginning of the film, where they're highlighting that they don't have a fighter screen out because they're pants-wettingly stupid, to Kylo Ren explaining to other characters about how they're all meaningless and unimportant despite being, respectively, the protagonist, antagonist and invisible hand of the entire film (and previous one).

But mostly its a snooze fest of watching lights go by out a window, and the survivors end up in the exact same situation they started out in: in a ship, needing to outrun a magical fleet that has infinite manpower and infinite supplies, while they have nothing.
Nothing of worth or note happens in the entire film, because director really wants to tell you how unimportant it is. Even the training subplot is irrelevant, as Rey (in TFA), or random little kids can do crazy things with the Force without training, so the fact that the only available teacher in the entire galaxy ( ) doesn't want to teach anyone doesn't matter.

I think that's overstating things.

The film never at any point says nothing matters.

It's worse than that. TLJ couldn't decide what mattered.

Does sacrificing yourself for others matter? Rose can't seem to make up her damn mind whether it's brave or foolish.

Does power matter? Rey and Kylo both seem to think it matters, but then they win through the power of teamwork so did it really matter?

Does knowledge matter? Apparently not according to Yoda, but it sure seemed to matter when Luke needed to project himself across the galaxy.

The movie never said nothing mattered. It was just a distorted mess of contradictions, and while well-placed contradiction can be a really powerful thing, TLJ seemed to have no sense of what the answers to any of the questions it painstakingly built are. Outside of something something hope something something never give up something something platitudes.

 LordofHats wrote:
TLJ seemed to have no sense of what the answers to any of the questions it painstakingly built are

Look, the special effects budget was $9999999999 billion so you'd better stop acting so ungrateful with all these questions. Just shut up and watch the next thing explode.

 Peregrine wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
...speeder bikes were the original Canto Bight.

Hardly. The speeder bike chase makes sense in the context of the rest of the story, accomplishes the required plot goal of separating certain characters, and doesn't revolve around an ongoing competition to see who can be the stupidest character in the setting. And, most importantly, it doesn't take that long. Canto Bight drags on and on and on and on and the whole thing is utterly pointless. Finn and Mandatory Love Interest™ could have stayed on board the ship and things would have worked out better for everyone. Their entire plan depends on a ridiculous technobabble plot device handwaved out of nowhere, bounces from idiotic decision to idiotic decision with a side note of childish attempts at preaching a message, and ends up accomplishing absolutely nothing besides filling up a bunch of time. Replace the entire Canto Bight sequence with a brief clip of a First Order officer commenting "lol, those cloaks aren't good enough to hide from our sensors" and nothing of value is lost.

Nothing of value? Really? You say that like every movie has a stuttering Benicio Del Toro. Well, until they all do, Canto Bight will remain our necessary source of "f-f-f-fth".

 Peregrine wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
TLJ seemed to have no sense of what the answers to any of the questions it painstakingly built are

Look, the special effects budget was $9999999999 billion so you'd better stop acting so ungrateful with all these questions. Just shut up and watch the next thing explode.

*prepares tea*

No

*dumps tea on floor*

 LordofHats wrote:
Does sacrificing yourself for others matter?

Does power matter?

Does knowledge matter?

These are all yes and no question at the same time. There is no axiomatic answer to these questions. In my opinion, that's what the movie was trying to present as central element. There are no easy answer to existential question. There are no easy solutions. Villains aren't just villainous, that's the whole point of Kylo, and heroes aren't just heroic, that's the whole point of Luke in this movie. That's what happens to all main characters. They all question their purpose and their place in this conflict and all of them try to find their answer and find themselves disappointed by the results. Rey wants to save Kylo, but she can't. Finn wants to fight to the bitter end, but is shown the pointlessness of such sacrifice. Kylo wants to be the master and change the rules of the game between dark and light side, but ends up in the same place then all other Siths before him. Luke doesn't want to be seen as a hero and savior, but oups, guess what, he dies as a hero and a savior, his legend bigger then ever. This was a very ambitious plan, it wasn't executed well, especially for Finn, which falls terribly flat, but rather reasonnably for the three others.

I'm eager to see where this is all going to lead in Episode IX, for once, I don't have much clue as to where this is going to end unlike for the end of the other two trilogies whose ending could be seen from space even as a child.

epronovost wrote:
Villains aren't just villainous, that's the whole point of Kylo

Except Kylo spends the entire movie being a childish wannabe-Vader. The only time he shows any hint of being anything but a villain is when he saves Rey, but that's immediately revealed to be nothing more than his "rule the galaxy together" sales pitch. And no, killing another villain because you want to take his place is not moral ambiguity.

and heroes aren't just heroic, that's the whole point of Luke in this movie.

Except then you have a bunch of resistance heroes being straightforward heroes, and Luke eventually finds his heroic redemption. Having a bitter old man moment on the way to becoming the hero again is just part of his journey.

Finn wants to fight to the bitter end, but is shown the pointlessness of such sacrifice.

But:

1) He's shown this lesson in an utterly idiotic way. Designated Heterosexual Love Interest attempts suicide to prevent him from fighting to the end, replacing one death with another. Except now instead of dying to save the rest of the resistance from inevitable death the sacrifice is dying so that your creepy stalkerish love obsession doesn't die right away, dooming the entire resistance (including both Finn and Stalker Girl) to die once the First Order breaches the wall. Only act of plot via Luke sacrificing himself prevents everyone else from dying. So, far from showing the pointlessness of sacrifice, it shows a situation where sacrifice and fighting to the end absolutely has a purpose. But apparently the lesson Finn is supposed to understand is that instead of sacrificing himself to save his friends and the cause he believes in he should run away and wait passively to die with them?

2) It's in direct contrast to everything else going on. Admiral Purplehair sacrifices herself to annihilate an entire First Order fleet and allow the transports to escape, finally earning Poe's admiration in the process and creating one of the few good moments of the movie (just don't think about it too much fluff-wise). Designated Love Interest tries to sacrifice herself so her obsession doesn't die, and I guess we're supposed to approve of this? And finally Luke wraps up his story with a heroic sacrifice. So if sacrifice and fighting to the end is bad then why is so much of the movie saying the exact opposite?

This is why I hate TLJ, there's so little coherent thought behind it. You're just supposed to mindlessly follow along from CGI spectacle to witty one-liner to cliche emotional scene and back to more CGI spectacle without thinking about anything but what is on the screen at that moment. Any question of overall plot or message is about as intelligent and relevant as the story of the pizza guy showing up at the start of a porn movie.

The arrival of the pizza guy is extremely relevant to the theme and the plot; the theme of personal responsibility is pounded home when it comes together with the pizza plot: never lose track of your money when ordering a pizza or there will be consequences.

I suspected the Canto Bight prison scene was headed into a similar territory once Del Toro showed up, where Finn and Rose's lack of responsible parking lead to parking violation consequences. Just didn't go far enough. "F-f-fth-fth-fth!"

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
The arrival of the pizza guy is extremely relevant to the theme and the plot; the theme of personal responsibility is pounded home when it comes together with the pizza plot: never lose track of your money when ordering a pizza or there will be consequences.

I suspected the Canto Bight prison scene was headed into a similar territory once Del Toro showed up, where Finn and Rose's lack of responsible parking lead to parking violation consequences. Just didn't go far enough. "F-f-fth-fth-fth!"

I'm now imagining Hacker Guy appearing out of the shadows wearing nothing but a laptop with a conveniently placed hole and saying "I'll h-h-hack your s-s-system baby". I don't think it would be worse than what we actually got.

"I can break you into old man Fth-th-th-Snoke's boudoir." Missed opportunity.

Whether one liked TLJ or not it seems like it should be obvious that it broke the SW community.

Yep, I think that’s the thing we can draw a line under. By contrast, the PT evoked a sense of shared suffering — probably because there was no sophisticated viral marketing campaign to shift the narrative from how bad the movies were to how bad the fans are. There was a certain innocence or at least transparency to the almost surreal problems with those movies. They were, at the end of the day, super glossy indy films. But they were assuredly Star Wars films, regardless of how bad they were and whether anyone liked them. The initial hurdle with these Disney films is, there’s nothing but the exchange of money for ownership to “prove” they are SW. So with TFA, Disney got JJ to reshoot ANH. And everything one superficially associated with SW was re-presented in a just slightly different way. This caused some groans but by and large the fans were on board and even eager for more. Then comes TLJ and the whole fragile, expensive thing snapped like a thin glass wire.