So in addition to everything else, GW announced there's a legends category which won't be further supported. In the official statement they all but encouraged tournaments not to add them in. So do you think the non GW tournaments will allow these units or not?
Also what units are they going to place on this list?.
Its everything that was in the Index that didnt make it into a codex.
And you and I had very different interpretations about what GW is doing with Legends. How you got "Legends wont be further supported" from "which is why you’ll be delighted to hear that we’ll be supporting them FOREVER with Warhammer Legends" is beyond me.
From what they said in the article, they won't be "recommending" that these units be used in tournaments. It will be interesting to see if and when they'll begin applying this "recommendation" to their own tournaments. The units they mentioned that will be placed on the list are units that only have Index entries right now. I fully expect to see other units added to the list over the coming years though.
chaos0xomega wrote: How you got "Legends wont be further supported" from "which is why you’ll be delighted to hear that we’ll be supporting them FOREVER with Warhammer Legends" is beyond me.
Not to speak for OP, but he might be referring to the fact that they won't receive ongoing balance support after their initial move to Legends.
chaos0xomega wrote: Its everything that was in the Index that didnt make it into a codex.
And you and I had very different interpretations about what GW is doing with Legends. How you got "Legends wont be further supported" from "which is why you’ll be delighted to hear that we’ll be supporting them FOREVER with Warhammer Legends" is beyond me.
Provided that nothing else makes it onto the list.
I imagine there's a lot of things beyond you . Any further rule adjustments are not going to be added to this unit. So any further changes like we saw in the space marine codex might not apply to them. Now you can certainly use them in pickup games, which is fine for me. I won't ever have an issue. But I also wonder if any of those legends units will make it to the next edition?
Look at the archon or the autarch. Both of those models get gutted from the move from index to codex. A lot of people could be disappointed if their carefully converted model is openly discouraged from being used or misses out on any new rules the eldar could receive
casvalremdeikun wrote: I bet they are not recommending those units because they want us to be buying the new stuff.
I think it's simplier then that. basicly GW's not going to be factoring these things into balance passes etc thus if you're in a play enviroment where TFG is going to find and abuse every broken unit he can then you might not want to use these things.
Yeah it's just a bummer for a lot of classic models. The chaos characters on demonic mounts were always great conversions and its kind of sad to see them being moved closer to the chopping block
casvalremdeikun wrote: I bet they are not recommending those units because they want us to be buying the new stuff.
Yes, because those models were killing soooo many sales. They don't need to kill off old models to make money.
If my army contains 500 pts of models GW no longer makes and I want to play in a tournament that doesn't allow those models, am I maybe going to need to spend some money to get 500 pts of different models that the tournament DOES allow?
casvalremdeikun wrote: I bet they are not recommending those units because they want us to be buying the new stuff.
Yes, because those models were killing soooo many sales. They don't need to kill off old models to make money.
If my army contains 500 pts of models GW no longer makes and I want to play in a tournament that doesn't allow those models, am I maybe going to need to spend some money to get 500 pts of different models that the tournament DOES allow?
You presuppose this is a problem for the majority of people. You're free to count the number of index models at tournaments currently.
As an Ork player, I'm not surprised but at the same time pretty miffed regardless because it means we have to take entirely inferior versions of our usual HQ's simply because of GW's policy of "No models, no rules". The dumbest part is that the Ork Warboss on Warbike DOES have a model, even if its FW, so it makes no sense that it was never translated over into the new codex. I get we have the Wartrike, but it is definitively not the same, both rules wise and model wise. Similarly, it wouldn't have been that hard for GW to promote people converting a Big Mek with KFF from the Nob kit (that's what I did) since it's already super similar to what they officially do with the Big Mek in MA kit. To add insult to injury, until GW release an official kit and ruleset for Warbosses in Mega Armour, our only WB in MA is Ghazzy. Somehow Big Meks and Nobz have access to it but Warbosses don't. Seems legit.
Biggest loss for me will be my Ravenwing Chaplain and Librarian on bike. Granted, I don't play them tournament wise anyway so shouldn't be too much of a heartbreak. I just built a damn techmarine on bike though for my RW.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I bet they are not recommending those units because they want us to be buying the new stuff.
Yes, because those models were killing soooo many sales. They don't need to kill off old models to make money.
If my army contains 500 pts of models GW no longer makes and I want to play in a tournament that doesn't allow those models, am I maybe going to need to spend some money to get 500 pts of different models that the tournament DOES allow?
You presuppose this is a problem for the majority of people. You're free to count the number of index models at tournaments currently.
Models that I've just converted/bought/painted this edition that are going away:
Wolfguard on bike
captain on bike
DA libby on bike
Mini-tiggy
SM dex
150+ bucks and hours that are far more valuable that GW is squatting (not counting indexes) that I spent this edition that will no longer be valid for matched/tourney play. Not legacy models but kits I've bought then kit-bashed then painted THIS EDITION THAT WERE VALID WHEN I SPENT THE $$ AND TIME that I will no longer be legally allowed to play with.
I need to find a new hobby. Pretty much guarantees they are coming out with primaris bikers though
bananathug wrote: Models that I've just converted/bought/painted this edition that are going away:
Wolfguard on bike
captain on bike
DA libby on bike
Mini-tiggy
SM dex
150+ bucks and hours that are far more valuable that GW is squatting (not counting indexes) that I spent this edition that will no longer be valid for matched/tourney play. Not legacy models but kits I've bought then kit-bashed then painted THIS EDITION THAT WERE VALID WHEN I SPENT THE $$ AND TIME that I will no longer be legally allowed to play with.
I need to find a new hobby. Pretty much guarantees they are coming out with primaris bikers though
Unless you are using them in tournaments, you should still get to play with them since they will have points. Not really a big deal.
bananathug wrote: Models that I've just converted/bought/painted this edition that are going away:
Wolfguard on bike
captain on bike
DA libby on bike
Mini-tiggy
SM dex
150+ bucks and hours that are far more valuable that GW is squatting (not counting indexes) that I spent this edition that will no longer be valid for matched/tourney play. Not legacy models but kits I've bought then kit-bashed then painted THIS EDITION THAT WERE VALID WHEN I SPENT THE $$ AND TIME that I will no longer be legally allowed to play with.
I need to find a new hobby. Pretty much guarantees they are coming out with primaris bikers though
If you knowingly kit-bashed in 8th you did so knowing this was coming.
bananathug wrote: Models that I've just converted/bought/painted this edition that are going away:
Wolfguard on bike
captain on bike
DA libby on bike
Mini-tiggy
SM dex
150+ bucks and hours that are far more valuable that GW is squatting (not counting indexes) that I spent this edition that will no longer be valid for matched/tourney play. Not legacy models but kits I've bought then kit-bashed then painted THIS EDITION THAT WERE VALID WHEN I SPENT THE $$ AND TIME that I will no longer be legally allowed to play with.
I need to find a new hobby. Pretty much guarantees they are coming out with primaris bikers though
Yeah. This is unfortunate news for those who've been using a lot of Index only datasheets in tournaments. I'm sure that's not too many people, but that doesn't lessen the pain for those who are in that group. The whole, "not recommending those units for tournaments," doesn't do much to help either. Sure, we can argue that they called it a recommendation, and no tournament organizer is obliged to follow it, but how many tournaments do we expect to ignore this recommendation in reality? Few I bet.
I wouldn't take this as a sign that Primaris bikes are coming any time soon though. Only those characters on bikes are affected for now. Regular marine bikes are still very much part of the codex.
bananathug wrote: Models that I've just converted/bought/painted this edition that are going away:
Wolfguard on bike
captain on bike
DA libby on bike
Mini-tiggy
SM dex
150+ bucks and hours that are far more valuable that GW is squatting (not counting indexes) that I spent this edition that will no longer be valid for matched/tourney play. Not legacy models but kits I've bought then kit-bashed then painted THIS EDITION THAT WERE VALID WHEN I SPENT THE $$ AND TIME that I will no longer be legally allowed to play with.
I need to find a new hobby. Pretty much guarantees they are coming out with primaris bikers though
captain on a bike is still in codex space marines.
chaos0xomega wrote: Its everything that was in the Index that didnt make it into a codex.
And you and I had very different interpretations about what GW is doing with Legends. How you got "Legends wont be further supported" from "which is why you’ll be delighted to hear that we’ll be supporting them FOREVER with Warhammer Legends" is beyond me.
Because the support that matters is ongoing points/errata updates to deal with balance issues and tournament legality. By dumping them in the "not tournament legal" pile GW has just guaranteed that most players won't be able to use them, since even the people who don't go to tournaments often find that tournament rules are the standard in their local community and aren't going to invest in something they can only use with special permission.
The game isn't the same as the one many of us started with but at least they are getting rules support somewhere for some of those models.
I mean I know some of us play non stop tournaments but lets be honest, usually the new hotness is much better than the old busted no matter how much we love old busted.
Speaking for myself I keep up on tournaments but I haven't played in them in years. I love the feeling and the nuance of the game in a casual competitive point of view with my friends. So me losing access to this means nothing to me, I didn't even rebase all my old marines as honestly, they've never seen a tournament and won't ever do so. So let the index units flow in the legends.
I just feel bad for those who won't let people use them in pick up games because it's not " tournament " that would be beyond lame and really outside of why I started playing the game which was the feeling of the story, played out on the board between the factions with outrageous turns of fate one way or the other.
Don't start the doom and gloom, it's not as bad as it sounds for the index units the goal of the game is to win, the point of the game is to have fun and this all helps with that just not in a tournament setting.
Edit: If anyone doesn't let you use your index units, just play a perfectly legal ball busting list and show them how fun that " balanced and legal " list is to play against. Then ask again, I promise you there are no index options less fun than a perfectly legal knight list, or a perfectly legal hammer of a guard list and both of those as well as many more tournament mainstays will be so much less fun, than a chaplain on a bike, or some rough riders. The real joke is people thinking the balanced choices are somehow better than the legends units as far as having a good game. GW doesn't balance, it just juggles nerfs to drain money from one army to another and some units to others. They don't want balance, just controlled imbalance and power creep to make the cash flow.
Am I missing something? I don't understand why people are getting upset about this - the way I'm reading it is a GOOD thing.
I actually own the Chaos Index but for a moment lets pretend that I don't, and I have that goofy Chaos Lord on Juggernaught from 2nd/3rd edition sitting in my army case unused. But alas! The codex has no such entry for him.
As it stands the index has been unavailable for quite some time now so I can't even BUY the rules for Chaos characters on Daemonic steeds even if I wanted to. Once they're released under Warhammer Legends I'll have access to the rules and the points costs for those units.
If it has the same keywords and options as it currently has in the Index (which I have no reason to think it won't) then I can easily fit it into my Chaos Space Marine army, where he can still benefit from the Stratagems, Relics, Warlord Traits, Legion Traits and Hateful Assault. All things that are NOT included in his datasheet, but granted via the codex and associated errata.
So that brings me to 2 possible points that tournament players might have an issue with:
1. The points cost won't be revised. Is this really a problem though? How often have GW revised points costs on Index-Only models since the full codex releases? As far as I know Chapter Approved 2017 was the only one that addressed the indexes, by 2018 most armies had their codex already. You can hardly get mad at GW now for outright saying they're not changing the points on index units when they already haven't changed the points on index units for over a year.
2. That they recommended not using Legends units in organised play. So what? There's already tournaments that are banning Index units, or at least considering it. Also, it's not even a codified "organised play suggestion" like the rule of 2/34 or the detachment limit. Maybe it will be when they release the ruleset, but even then it's entirely up to the TO and the community if they want to adhere to it or not.
At the end of the day they're units that already weren't getting any support, with no current models, and no rule source widely available (not counting piracy here - each to their own). Now we can get their rules again, and they're not going away.
I do feel for DA players using biker characters in Ravenwing, it seems really stupid to me that they introduced a character on a Land Speeder but didn't bring over the bikers...
I may have missed something, but did they say what format the Legends data would take? I'm assuming it'll be a free web page or PDF but I can't find a solid statement one way or another.
There are a lot of sheep who do anything in society. Some won't ever stray beyond what they feel to be " illegal " regardless of how dumb the idea is.
I think the legends is actually over all a good thing. Some don't consider it to be good because it means they won't be tournament legal and some players will just screech and run to their safety place if you say that to them. Even though GWs balance is about the sickest joke I know.
So reasonable people will allow them, unreasonable people won't.
Like when my DA had outdated wargear and GW errated and I crap you not " You should ask your opponent if you can use the updated wargear, if they are good people they will allow it, if they don't, you can't make them but they should be better than that ".
We had years on years needing to be beg people to use the storm shield other chapters all had because they wouldn't just errata DA to have them. Some players even wouldn't allow it because, they didn't have to.
Special characters used to be able to only be used if you asked your opponent and he said yes. Many special characters were dead models in collections because some people just wouldn't allow it, wasn't legal. Didn't matter how weak they were.
Some players maybe haven't seen how absolutely lame people can be, that is why people are upset about it.
As if everyone is reasonable, it's totally ok, if they are as we've seen them to sometimes be, it'll still not be good. We've already had people talk of banning index units because it's not fair people have access to something they can't, even if that thing really isn't much good but a flavor unit.
There's actually something in the wording that nobody's commented yet. Legends status applies to models, so Kabalite Trueborn and Baron Sathonyx are out of luck.
Agamemnon2 wrote: There's actually something in the wording that nobody's commented yet. Legends status applies to models, so Kabalite Trueborn and Baron Sathonyx are out of luck.
If Kabalite Trueborn and Hekatrix Bloodbrides were in the dex, they might be safe- they've always been represented by Kabalite and wych models.
Was Sathonyx actually in the index? He's never had a model.
Either way, we won't know for sure what gets rules and what doesn't until it's released.
Agamemnon2 wrote: There's actually something in the wording that nobody's commented yet. Legends status applies to models, so Kabalite Trueborn and Baron Sathonyx are out of luck.
If Kabalite Trueborn and Hekatrix Bloodbrides were in the dex, they might be safe- they've always been represented by Kabalite and wych models.
Was Sathonyx actually in the index? He's never had a model.
Either way, we won't know for sure what gets rules and what doesn't until it's released.
Trueborn and Bloodbrides were in the index, I don't know about special characters actually. I don't actually own any indices myself.
Ginjitzu wrote: The whole, "not recommending those units for tournaments," doesn't do much to help either. Sure, we can argue that they called it a recommendation, and no tournament organizer is obliged to follow it, but how many tournaments do we expect to ignore this recommendation in reality? Few I bet.
Rule Of 3 says hi... Can see the Legends rules being pretty much dead on arrival.
Ginjitzu wrote: The whole, "not recommending those units for tournaments," doesn't do much to help either. Sure, we can argue that they called it a recommendation, and no tournament organizer is obliged to follow it, but how many tournaments do we expect to ignore this recommendation in reality? Few I bet.
Rule Of 3 says hi... Can see the Legends rules being pretty much dead on arrival.
Agreed.
The fact they say they won't continue to balance them and they will recommend they are not for tournament play says strongly to me that these units will also generally not be playable in standard pickup games.
I believe the standard for general play will be "no legends".
Is this a change to how Index units have been handled in your groups until now? I was under the assumption, based on anecdotal experience, that they weren't allowed in most groups anyway?
Ginjitzu wrote: The whole, "not recommending those units for tournaments," doesn't do much to help either. Sure, we can argue that they called it a recommendation, and no tournament organizer is obliged to follow it, but how many tournaments do we expect to ignore this recommendation in reality? Few I bet.
Rule Of 3 says hi... Can see the Legends rules being pretty much dead on arrival.
Dead on arrival for tournament only players. For people who don't play in tournaments, it really doesn't matter. I don't know which player base is bigger, though I suspect it's the non tournament camp. There literally just are not enough tournaments offered frequently enough in enough different cities to accommodate even a fraction of the total number of people buying GW product.
Saying something is dead on arrival because of how it impacts that population is disingenuous at best.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Is this a change to how Index units have been handled in your groups until now? I was under the assumption, based on anecdotal experience, that they weren't allowed in most groups anyway?
Standard in my local shop is index is totally fine at the moment.
Ginjitzu wrote: The whole, "not recommending those units for tournaments," doesn't do much to help either. Sure, we can argue that they called it a recommendation, and no tournament organizer is obliged to follow it, but how many tournaments do we expect to ignore this recommendation in reality? Few I bet.
Rule Of 3 says hi... Can see the Legends rules being pretty much dead on arrival.
Dead on arrival for tournament only players. For people who don't play in tournaments, it really doesn't matter. I don't know which player base is bigger, though I suspect it's the non tournament camp. There literally just are not enough tournaments offered frequently enough in enough different cities to accommodate even a fraction of the total number of people buying GW product.
Saying something is dead on arrival because of how it impacts that population is disingenuous at best.
Like Rule of 3 is a tournament rule.
The killer for Legends is them specifically saying they will not balance the rules going forward. That will put off the majority of people, more so the more time passes.
When it first launches people might accept it. As it gets further from the time they were balanced less and less so. These units are going from standard play, I see that as inevitable based on what GW has said.
Ginjitzu wrote: The whole, "not recommending those units for tournaments," doesn't do much to help either. Sure, we can argue that they called it a recommendation, and no tournament organizer is obliged to follow it, but how many tournaments do we expect to ignore this recommendation in reality? Few I bet.
Rule Of 3 says hi... Can see the Legends rules being pretty much dead on arrival.
Really?! I was of the impression that rule of three is like gospel for tournament organizers. If I'm wrong about that, then color me very pleasantly surprised.
chaos0xomega wrote: Its everything that was in the Index that didnt make it into a codex.
And you and I had very different interpretations about what GW is doing with Legends. How you got "Legends wont be further supported" from "which is why you’ll be delighted to hear that we’ll be supporting them FOREVER with Warhammer Legends" is beyond me.
They will keep them around. They specifically said they won't be updating point values etc. They will be put there and be like that forever. Literally only difference(apart from no longer being recommended for tournaments) is at least new players have access to rules. ATM you can't even get rules anymore.
But they specifically said no more point updates...
Ginjitzu wrote: The whole, "not recommending those units for tournaments," doesn't do much to help either. Sure, we can argue that they called it a recommendation, and no tournament organizer is obliged to follow it, but how many tournaments do we expect to ignore this recommendation in reality? Few I bet.
Rule Of 3 says hi... Can see the Legends rules being pretty much dead on arrival.
Really?! I was of the impression that rule of three is like gospel for tournament organizers. If I'm wrong about that, then color me very pleasantly surprised.
Why I get impression he misunderstood what you said and you two are actually agreeing
2. That they recommended not using Legends units in organised play. So what? There's already tournaments that are banning Index units, or at least considering it. Also, it's not even a codified "organised play suggestion" like the rule of 2/34 or the detachment limit. Maybe it will be when they release the ruleset, but even then it's entirely up to the TO and the community if they want to adhere to it or not.
Tournament rules have habit of becoming de facto standard outside as well. People practice for future tournaments. This means they want opponents to follow those rules as well(not much of practice otherway). So people start bringing tournament complicant armies. Suddenly getting game with army that DOESN'T follow tournament rules become hard. That's been the case for 20+ years I have been in the hobby.
So if tournaments start banning legends as per GW's suggestion that seeps up outside tournaments as well.
Ginjitzu wrote: The whole, "not recommending those units for tournaments," doesn't do much to help either. Sure, we can argue that they called it a recommendation, and no tournament organizer is obliged to follow it, but how many tournaments do we expect to ignore this recommendation in reality? Few I bet.
Rule Of 3 says hi... Can see the Legends rules being pretty much dead on arrival.
Dead on arrival for tournament only players. For people who don't play in tournaments, it really doesn't matter. I don't know which player base is bigger, though I suspect it's the non tournament camp. There literally just are not enough tournaments offered frequently enough in enough different cities to accommodate even a fraction of the total number of people buying GW product.
Saying something is dead on arrival because of how it impacts that population is disingenuous at best.
I don't play in many tournaments either. Yet getting game that doesn't follow tournament rules requires extra effort. Not "pick up army, drop into FLGS and play" level. Not even longshot. If I want to play random pickup game it WILL be under tournament rules.
bananathug wrote: Models that I've just converted/bought/painted this edition that are going away:
Wolfguard on bike
captain on bike
DA libby on bike
Mini-tiggy
SM dex
150+ bucks and hours that are far more valuable that GW is squatting (not counting indexes) that I spent this edition that will no longer be valid for matched/tourney play. Not legacy models but kits I've bought then kit-bashed then painted THIS EDITION THAT WERE VALID WHEN I SPENT THE $$ AND TIME that I will no longer be legally allowed to play with.
I need to find a new hobby. Pretty much guarantees they are coming out with primaris bikers though
Maybe.
What you definitely need is to find a rational non-tourney play group.
Ginjitzu wrote: The whole, "not recommending those units for tournaments," doesn't do much to help either. Sure, we can argue that they called it a recommendation, and no tournament organizer is obliged to follow it, but how many tournaments do we expect to ignore this recommendation in reality? Few I bet.
Rule Of 3 says hi... Can see the Legends rules being pretty much dead on arrival.
Really?! I was of the impression that rule of three is like gospel for tournament organizers. If I'm wrong about that, then color me very pleasantly surprised.
Yeah, I'm agreeing with you. Rule Of 3 was just a suggestion for tournament play from GW, but it instantly became a hard rule everywhere from tournaments to pick-up games in store. I can see this going the same.
The legends will only be dead on arrival to the most narrow minded of people.If anything its a good test to see who is actually worth playing with or not when the most degenerate things are all perfectly legal in lists currently.
I'm an old school player with loads of legacy models, I play in a few tournament but mostly pickup/casual games.
Some here seem to be complaining that GW have stated that they wont be updating pts and rules for these after they put them in the legends bracket. How is that different than today? The points and rules for index only units haven't been touched since their respective codex's came out. I for one am hopeful that they will do a little updating before adding them to legends so they are a bit more usable and have rules compatible with current codex (marines given angels of death etc...).
The tournament legality recommendation is annoying but was always going to happen, tournaments like updated, balanced rules and best will in the world GW is not going to be actively supporting models they don't make any more. It sucks for some but consider the new players that get confronted by units that they cannot buy with rules not in their codexs, I can see why they are doing it.
Most badly hit are the orks who have some key HQs missing and marines just by dint of the amount of stuff they lose. Most of the other casualties with be wargear options which I suspect will be going altogether unless they were part of a specific model, old kitbashes will be getting no support I wager.
Ginjitzu wrote: The whole, "not recommending those units for tournaments," doesn't do much to help either. Sure, we can argue that they called it a recommendation, and no tournament organizer is obliged to follow it, but how many tournaments do we expect to ignore this recommendation in reality? Few I bet.
Rule Of 3 says hi... Can see the Legends rules being pretty much dead on arrival.
Really?! I was of the impression that rule of three is like gospel for tournament organizers. If I'm wrong about that, then color me very pleasantly surprised.
Yeah, I'm agreeing with you. Rule Of 3 was just a suggestion for tournament play from GW, but it instantly became a hard rule everywhere from tournaments to pick-up games in store. I can see this going the same.
I agree.
Currently everyone I know plays the rule of 3 as an actual rule in casual play but index units are considered part of the normal rules. I think this will change the attitude of most people towards not using Index units but it will be a gradual process. I've seen new players complain about the lack of these models and convert them up in the last 2 years so they will likely be some annoyed people to this rules change.
I think over time players will begin to think of legends units as narrative play options but this won't happen overnight.
We all had a sense that the exclusion of these units from codices was the beginning of the end for them but I didn't expect it to happen in this way. I actually think this way of handling it is quite a intelligent decision from GW.
This almost feels like the way M:TG handled the process in the beginning with the transition to blocks. Standard and modern and Legacy. I think Legends units will become the equivalent of legacy magic cards.
This is not a bad thing for new players but will cause gripes with older players but lets look at this as what it really is, a way to sell more models.
The question is what will happen to the flowchart. Will this stop codex models using index weapon options?
From what they said in the article, they won't be "recommending" that these units be used in tournaments.
What the hell!
Now they give recommendations about the usage of units they have configured?
If you are being generous: The recommendation is on that basis that the points costs for legends units won't be reviewed as part of the annual balance changes.
Thus if a unit is disproportionately powerful (or weak) given the points cost given to it it won't be increased (or decreased) to bring it into balance with other units/ armies...
Okay in the fullness of the it may change, but its liable to take a long time, and not be on a regular basis.
I can also see GWs point about having units readily available.
If you are being synical: GW creates the rules so is creating rules, and declaring support there if that proactively encourages us to by new stuff
Comparing legends to Ro3 is a bit of a stretch. Are they both suggestions ? Yes.
However, that is where the similarities begin and end. The Ro3 has been in the game for more of the games lifetime than it was gone. It was oddly absent at the start of 8th, then pulled back in as people abused the fact it wasn't there so gaining it was really more a return to what had been for decades before.
As well, Ro3 actually handles some very extreme game balance issues. Legends exclusion doesn't.
1 bike chaplain won't have the same impact on a game as say 9 jet fighters.
Anyone looking at the items in question with even a moderate understanding of the rules and game will be fine with them being used.
Every game is not tournament prep, and we're not all going Pro. The fact GW won't " balance " them means very little when the stuff they balance still ends up borked beyond belief.
Are Grey Knights balanced ? What about guard infantry squads ? I know their amazing job at balance surely hasn't given us some really annoying lists to deal with.
Denying someone their index units won't somehow save you from dreaded " imbalance ". It's a completely insane irrational fear.
For those saying how smart this is, so they can soft kill it, it's more saying its smart because we as a player base are so dumb we'll hear " not for tournaments..?!?!?...bad..bad evil..must deny !!! "
I mean no one has to accept anything to play against but lets not be so narrow minded we deny people completely reasonable games because GW is " clever " as it makes us really seem sorta dumb if we allow it.
Umm rule of 3 was introduced first time over a year ago. The moment it became introduced first time ever it became hard rule. It was first time out there for whopping 1 seconnd and it was already de facto standard.
And Ro3 has nothing to do with balance anyway.
And everybody isn't going to be pro but when everybody brings tournament compliciant armies getting game without isn't "pick up standard army, go to FLGS and play" if you don't follow. I don't play with tournaments in mind. But getting game without tournament rules require pre-agreement ahead in time. I can't just drop into FLGS and play against first opponent.
Sure I can decide I don't get limited by that. Limits amount of opponents I will have when I'm playing under different rules than the rest of guys at the FLGS...
Ro3 was basically a return to the old FOC which only allowed 3 of certain types of units, heavy support, fast attack, etc. So no, it really wasn't introduced just a year ago, it had been there just not with the same name but it was there for a long long time through many game editions.
Ro3 has everything to do with balance, why do you think it was implemented ? People were spamming certain power units out of control.
Using a bike chaplain doesn't requite pre arranged games, sorry. I mean people can be hamstrung by whatever weird mental gymnastics they want but I refuse to make myself that slaved to the rules I won't let someone use a flavor unit because it won't be in a tournament.
Note I use the chaplain model just as a point of reference but really it could go for any of the units in the selection.
But Dual CAD and allied detachments meant that rule of 3 wasn't a thing. You could run more than 3 of anything if you could afford the troops and HQ tax. Then formations allowed you to do all sorts of min maxing. Multiple aspect host formations with al warp spiders was a thing! Librarius conclave specifically allowed 5 librarians. So RO3 was new.
Despite the origins or not of the R03 it is still an optional rule for matched play that has become standard everywhere I play much like the rule of 3 detachments which is also optional but I don't know anyone that doesn't use this in over 1k games. The legends rule specifically calls out competitive play and is a clarion call to TO's that this is the way GW want it to be played but its up to those TO's to adopt it and I'm pretty sure most will and definitely the big ones. Lets be honest it is likely that most players who attend tournaments or intend to will start to treat this like a defacto rule. I know I will and I would expect my opponents to specify in advance if they will be using 'Legends' units from now on. So yeah getting a game against random people at FLGS will need this to be agreed in advance. Good luck finding a game where people won't assume its THE rule.
I think this is the thin end of the wedge though. I can see in years to come as new codex come out they may choose to remove units from them and add those units to the Legends list. What if they no longer want to produce finecast models because they're no longer financially feasible to create plastic moulds for...boom into the legends list.
That's fine, people can do what they want to but I'm not about to just hop up and obey my GW overlords because what was legal yesterday is somehow illegal today just because they say so for no real reason.
Let everyone make that call for themselves, I'm simply offering a point of argument that to blindly follow it is folly, people are open to feel otherwise.
I'll seek and ask for no explanation on using Legends other than to say to anyone who I do talk to, Legends are totally fine with me and should be expected in all games, even if they aren't used in every game.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: So in addition to everything else, GW announced there's a legends category which won't be further supported. In the official statement they all but encouraged tournaments not to add them in. So do you think the non GW tournaments will allow these units or not?
Also what units are they going to place on this list?.
What does that include?
All indexes, including FW?
chaos0xomega wrote: Its everything that was in the Index that didnt make it into a codex.
And you and I had very different interpretations about what GW is doing with Legends. How you got "Legends wont be further supported" from "which is why you’ll be delighted to hear that we’ll be supporting them FOREVER with Warhammer Legends" is beyond me.
Because the support that matters is ongoing points/errata updates to deal with balance issues and tournament legality. By dumping them in the "not tournament legal" pile GW has just guaranteed that most players won't be able to use them, since even the people who don't go to tournaments often find that tournament rules are the standard in their local community and aren't going to invest in something they can only use with special permission.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: So in addition to everything else, GW announced there's a legends category which won't be further supported. In the official statement they all but encouraged tournaments not to add them in. So do you think the non GW tournaments will allow these units or not?
Also what units are they going to place on this list?.
What does that include?
All indexes, including FW?
It doesn't say anything about FW specifically. I would hope they would continue to fully support FW units given the amount people spend on them! But who knows. Inside sources say that FW is being reworked as the specialist brand instead of doing anything for 40k or Sigmar, but that doesn't tell us what the plan is for legacy stuff.
bananathug wrote: Models that I've just converted/bought/painted this edition that are going away:
Wolfguard on bike
captain on bike
DA libby on bike
Mini-tiggy
SM dex
150+ bucks and hours that are far more valuable that GW is squatting (not counting indexes) that I spent this edition that will no longer be valid for matched/tourney play. Not legacy models but kits I've bought then kit-bashed then painted THIS EDITION THAT WERE VALID WHEN I SPENT THE $$ AND TIME that I will no longer be legally allowed to play with.
I need to find a new hobby. Pretty much guarantees they are coming out with primaris bikers though
What's a Captain on a bike anyway? SM Captains have a really wide scope in model designs. Bloke in power armour, on a bike? They sell those. Even if you want to bling him up a bit or add different weapons it's no more difficult or different a conversion than trying to get a different weapon loadout that official kits don't really come with. You'll spend a hell of a lot more (and end up with a lot more left over) using only official parts and buying from GW if you want, say, a Chaos Terminator squad all with their basic weapons, or a Devastator Squad with 4 Heavy Flamers, or Khaine forbid, an Eldar War Walker with it's base 2 shuriken weapons.
Converting is bad, we can only use what's in the box. Except for loads of units where the weapons available to the entire unit are not included in the box. Or if you want to put a jump pack on a Librarian, or Sorceror. Or...have an oldmarine Lt. Every box of those I've bought has been lacking in options, empty and imaginary. I'm not even really bothered if they decide these particular units aren't going to be updated in the Codex, or their rules aren't going to be excessively good for their points cost until everyone has bought the new models and then they get nerfed, or that we'll have to just kinda shrug and make it up as we go in regards to how these interact with new options or rules, but it'd be nice if they stopped pretending that they only allow rules for the kits they make and that they make rules for every kit...or did they add an entry for Space Marine Commander into the new Codex?
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: So in addition to everything else, GW announced there's a legends category which won't be further supported. In the official statement they all but encouraged tournaments not to add them in. So do you think the non GW tournaments will allow these units or not?
Also what units are they going to place on this list?.
What does that include?
All indexes, including FW?
It doesn't say anything about FW specifically. I would hope they would continue to fully support FW units given the amount people spend on them! But who knows. Inside sources say that FW is being reworked as the specialist brand instead of doing anything for 40k or Sigmar, but that doesn't tell us what the plan is for legacy stuff.
Wait and see basically!
Wait and see.
SINCE start of 8th.
Even though you could've literally copied IA13 and demagoge devotions over and had a Decent runable List for R&H? Feth that and feth GW:
BTW: Servants didn't even show up on the list of factions so Double Feth gw.
but we need another 100 fukin flavours of marines with or sans spikes.
Its not clear from these few lines what this means for the indexes. It only talks about models in the indexes that didn't make it to codex. This could mean the end of the indexes as a whole or it could be that the models in codexes that have wargear options in the index could still use that wargear.
Are they even still selling the indexes. I had a quick look on GWuk and could only find index imperium 2
Nithaniel wrote: Its not clear from these few lines what this means for the indexes. It only talks about models in the indexes that didn't make it to codex. This could mean the end of the indexes as a whole or it could be that the models in codexes that have wargear options in the index could still use that wargear.
Are they even still selling the indexes. I had a quick look on GWuk and could only find index imperium 2
Does that mean anything?
FW index are still sold online to my knowledge. Also only sold online as epub, i belive. In one of the worst doccument types possible
bananathug wrote: Models that I've just converted/bought/painted this edition that are going away:
Wolfguard on bike
captain on bike
DA libby on bike
Mini-tiggy
SM dex
150+ bucks and hours that are far more valuable that GW is squatting (not counting indexes) that I spent this edition that will no longer be valid for matched/tourney play. Not legacy models but kits I've bought then kit-bashed then painted THIS EDITION THAT WERE VALID WHEN I SPENT THE $$ AND TIME that I will no longer be legally allowed to play with.
I need to find a new hobby. Pretty much guarantees they are coming out with primaris bikers though
What's a Captain on a bike anyway? SM Captains have a really wide scope in model designs. Bloke in power armour, on a bike? They sell those. Even if you want to bling him up a bit or add different weapons it's no more difficult or different a conversion than trying to get a different weapon loadout that official kits don't really come with. You'll spend a hell of a lot more (and end up with a lot more left over) using only official parts and buying from GW if you want, say, a Chaos Terminator squad all with their basic weapons, or a Devastator Squad with 4 Heavy Flamers, or Khaine forbid, an Eldar War Walker with it's base 2 shuriken weapons.
Converting is bad, we can only use what's in the box. Except for loads of units where the weapons available to the entire unit are not included in the box. Or if you want to put a jump pack on a Librarian, or Sorceror. Or...have an oldmarine Lt. Every box of those I've bought has been lacking in options, empty and imaginary. I'm not even really bothered if they decide these particular units aren't going to be updated in the Codex, or their rules aren't going to be excessively good for their points cost until everyone has bought the new models and then they get nerfed, or that we'll have to just kinda shrug and make it up as we go in regards to how these interact with new options or rules, but it'd be nice if they stopped pretending that they only allow rules for the kits they make and that they make rules for every kit...or did they add an entry for Space Marine Commander into the new Codex?
Captain on a bike is still in the Codex IIRC.
It's all the other bike characters that will be Legendary.
I had a feeling Index options would become Open Play only. Which is kinda what happened.
The only Index option I used frequently was a Death Guard Lord with Jump Pack. I stopped using (and sold off) all my Bike characters immediately after seeing them Indexed.
Nithaniel wrote: Its not clear from these few lines what this means for the indexes. It only talks about models in the indexes that didn't make it to codex. This could mean the end of the indexes as a whole or it could be that the models in codexes that have wargear options in the index could still use that wargear.
Are they even still selling the indexes. I had a quick look on GWuk and could only find index imperium 2
Does that mean anything?
FW index are still sold online to my knowledge. Also only sold online as epub, i belive. In one of the worst doccument types possible
They make reference to the indexes no longer being available hence this legends solution, though I suspect that in typical GW fashion they have not noticed/acknowledged that the FW books are called index.
That or main studio has finally got it's own way and FW is about to be squatted after having been gutted to support churn and burn boxes "specialist games". But the Imperial Armour Talons book along with the cursed admech book has already shown the FW hasn't been in control of it's own destiny for a while.
Nithaniel wrote: Its not clear from these few lines what this means for the indexes. It only talks about models in the indexes that didn't make it to codex. This could mean the end of the indexes as a whole or it could be that the models in codexes that have wargear options in the index could still use that wargear.
Are they even still selling the indexes. I had a quick look on GWuk and could only find index imperium 2
Does that mean anything?
FW index are still sold online to my knowledge. Also only sold online as epub, i belive. In one of the worst doccument types possible
They make reference to the indexes no longer being available hence this legends solution, though I suspect that in typical GW fashion they have not noticed/acknowledged that the FW books are called index.
That or main studio has finally got it's own way and FW is about to be squatted after having been gutted to support churn and burn boxes "specialist games". But the Imperial Armour Talons book along with the cursed admech book has already shown the FW hasn't been in control of it's own destiny for a while.
Fancy, then there is no point in my renegades anymore.
because servants are a waste of plastic modelwise.
It is always an eye opener how this is a surprise to people.
As a tourny player, This is most likely just a start. I'd bet that a bunch of the more problematic Forgeword stuff ended up going to legends. Porphy's, Mastadons, Thunder Hawks, Some of the Eldar super heavy tanks.
And then in 2022 when mini marines head to legends... well that will be the salty tear fest we have all be waiting for.
Now you have all of the current models legal for general play but now you'll have a legends format where everything is legal.
At least GW isn't coming out saying "yeah all those index units are never gonna be supported ever again, so use them as paper weights"
In essence it's a polite way of saying screw you your models count for nothing anymore.
Doesn't make it better, especially when we get 10000000000000000 marine books
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Look at the archon or the autarch. Both of those models get gutted from the move from index to codex. A lot of people could be disappointed if their carefully converted model is openly discouraged from being used or misses out on any new rules the eldar could receive
Oh no, all those carefully converted banshee masks
Reemule wrote: It is always an eye opener how this is a surprise to people.
As a tourny player, This is most likely just a start. I'd bet that a bunch of the more problematic Forgeword stuff ended up going to legends. Porphy's, Mastadons, Thunder Hawks, Some of the Eldar super heavy tanks.
And then in 2022 when mini marines head to legends... well that will be the salty tear fest we have all be waiting for.
Cool troll story bro
Realy if you dont own the FW indexes you really should be banned from commenting on them as the idea of any of those units in a 2k list being a problem list
AngryAngel80 wrote: There are a lot of sheep who do anything in society. Some won't ever stray beyond what they feel to be " illegal " regardless of how dumb the idea is.
AngryAngel80 wrote: There are a lot of sheep who do anything in society. Some won't ever stray beyond what they feel to be " illegal " regardless of how dumb the idea is.
Sir this is a wargame.
no it's a ccg, with wargame elements.
it's just gw doesn't want to admit that.
Reemule wrote: It is always an eye opener how this is a surprise to people.
As a tourny player, This is most likely just a start. I'd bet that a bunch of the more problematic Forgeword stuff ended up going to legends. Porphy's, Mastadons, Thunder Hawks, Some of the Eldar super heavy tanks.
And then in 2022 when mini marines head to legends... well that will be the salty tear fest we have all be waiting for.
Cool troll story bro
Realy if you dont own the FW indexes you really should be banned from commenting on them as the idea of any of those units in a 2k list being a problem list
I do own them. I own every released book for 40K.
It isn't that FW is a problem. Infact I'd say most of them are so far over pointed as they are very much not competitive.
The simple fact is that GW just came up with a way to sunset stuff.
Before people start crying bout having their factions "crapped" on, remember that the Legends announcement comes alongside the declaration of new campaign books that will bring new units to EVERY faction.
I am kinda happy with the Legends part even if it means a few conversions and old models I own are going to become less used. The current balancing juggle between a large backlog of unavailable miniatures and that there would be haves and havenots was always going to cause an issue for GW so with this they are just drawing a line in the sand. So for the tourney format this was a necessary step.
Either way I wouldn't be surprised if we would have Legends Tournaments and Matched Tournaments much like Magic the Gathering has tourneys for those who have collected forever and those who are just starting.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nithaniel wrote: Its not clear from these few lines what this means for the indexes. It only talks about models in the indexes that didn't make it to codex. This could mean the end of the indexes as a whole or it could be that the models in codexes that have wargear options in the index could still use that wargear.
Are they even still selling the indexes. I had a quick look on GWuk and could only find index imperium 2
Does that mean anything?
They've stopped selling the indexes when codexes filled the missing slot. I think Imperium 2 is only available because it has a few factions that haven't had a book yet such as Inquisition, Sisters of Silence, and in a way Sisters of Battle.
That said, while I'll be sad about not having power axes on my superiors anymore assuming they're also taking the Index options, I've been doing a thing with the Imagifier and the Beacon of Faith stratagem, which is patently silly and in no way an intended interaction; since they've made a thing and changed the way our banner bearer works every time a new codex comes out, and getting +2 to Faith rolls and then affecting to all units within 6" [including those than couldn't ordinarily act on an AoF themselves] is ridiculous and in know way represents the capability and integrity of the modern Beta Codex.
At the very least, it exposes the problem with universally allowing Index units in competitive play.
Ishagu wrote: Before people start crying bout having their factions "crapped" on, remember that the Legends announcement comes alongside the declaration of new campaign books that will bring new units to EVERY faction.
And if I believed that, that would be lovely, but I don't. GW has claimed similar things before, and it's seldom materialized in anything substantial. An army like Dark Eldar can expect a single clam-pack resculpt of a finecast unit at best. All hail the 20€ plastic ur-ghul.
Unless I’m mistaken, fortification points values were index only. I wonder if those are going that way too. They weren’t exactly a staple of army lists but I can’t think of many people excited for codex concrete either
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Unless I’m mistaken, fortification points values were index only. I wonder if those are going that way too. They weren’t exactly a staple of army lists but I can’t think of many people excited for codex concrete either
Any forts still in production I'd expect to continue to get support. Anything no longer made is likely to go to Legends.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Look at the archon or the autarch. Both of those models get gutted from the move from index to codex. A lot of people could be disappointed if their carefully converted model is openly discouraged from being used or misses out on any new rules the eldar could receive
Oh no, all those carefully converted banshee masks
And literally all customizable weapon options. Without the Index options, you can't even take a Warp-Jump Autarch. And Skyrunner Autarch have to choose from Fusion Gun -OR- Laser lance. They cannot have both without the Index. Not to mention Reaper Laucher. Reaper launcher/Laser Lance Skyrunner Autarchs are the only unit in the entire range that benefit entirely from being Saim-Hann. Every other unit either doesn't have a Heavy Weapon, or has no business Charging.
Autarchs are the Eldar equivalent of Marine Captains, which still retain a TON of their wargear options that don't have models. So why are Autarchs being restricted to only what GW has a model for?
Thank goodness this is only a suggestion for organized play.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Look at the archon or the autarch. Both of those models get gutted from the move from index to codex. A lot of people could be disappointed if their carefully converted model is openly discouraged from being used or misses out on any new rules the eldar could receive
Oh no, all those carefully converted banshee masks
And literally all customizable weapon options. Without the Index options, you can't even take a Warp-Jump Autarch. And Skyrunner Autarch have to choose from Fusion Gun -OR- Laser lance. They cannot have both without the Index. Not to mention Reaper Laucher.
Reaper launcher/Laser Lance Skyrunner Autarchs are the only unit in the entire range that benefit entirely from being Saim-Hann. Every other unit either doesn't have a Heavy Weapon, or has no business Charging.
Autarchs are the Eldar equivalent of Marine Captains, which still retain a TON of their wargear options that don't have models. So why are Autarchs being restricted to only what GW has a model for?
Thank goodness this is only a suggestion for organized play.
-
That's the thing: This is more or less only intended for tourneys to keep a somewhat level playing field. For anyone else it's up to the friends/groups what they play with.
To be fair I think it is time a plastic Jetbike Autarch comes. GW seems intent on killing resin so I wonder how long we must wait for the Autarch Skyrunner.
Ishagu wrote: Before people start crying bout having their factions "crapped" on, remember that the Legends announcement comes alongside the declaration of new campaign books that will bring new units to EVERY faction.
Ishagu wrote: Before people start crying bout having their factions "crapped" on, remember that the Legends announcement comes alongside the declaration of new campaign books that will bring new units to EVERY faction.
I know that you're either GW's biggest fan or else a stooge in their pay, but do you really need to lie on their behalf?
GW has *not* promised new units to every faction.
They have promised new *rules* for every faction.
Those two things are very different. And pretending otherwise is downright deceitful.
Pretty happy with this change to be honest. While there are plenty of people who used index only for rule of cool type stuff, the vast majority of things people are complaining about are better than all their codex counterparts so people run them. Alternatively, while people are assuming that nobody will use the models once they are de-facto banned from matched play, this could be something that drives people to open play.
Most of the models are relatively small(nothing bigger than a biker?) so it wouldn't be too hard to transport a handful of extra models so you have a "Legends" list as well as a "Matched play" list. Not very different from EDH players who swap cards between multiple decks depending on the power level of the table.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Look at the archon or the autarch. Both of those models get gutted from the move from index to codex. A lot of people could be disappointed if their carefully converted model is openly discouraged from being used or misses out on any new rules the eldar could receive
Oh no, all those carefully converted banshee masks
And literally all customizable weapon options. Without the Index options, you can't even take a Warp-Jump Autarch. And Skyrunner Autarch have to choose from Fusion Gun -OR- Laser lance. They cannot have both without the Index. Not to mention Reaper Laucher.
Reaper launcher/Laser Lance Skyrunner Autarchs are the only unit in the entire range that benefit entirely from being Saim-Hann. Every other unit either doesn't have a Heavy Weapon, or has no business Charging.
Autarchs are the Eldar equivalent of Marine Captains, which still retain a TON of their wargear options that don't have models. So why are Autarchs being restricted to only what GW has a model for?
Thank goodness this is only a suggestion for organized play.
-
I was just poking fun at the Banshee mask being an auto-include on every Autarch ever, despite no modification to the model whatsoever.
I'd also like to point out that the ork Warboss also didn't lose any options when he moved to the codex, so the same might be happening to the Autarch in a 8.1 codex.
DominayTrix wrote: Pretty happy with this change to be honest. While there are plenty of people who used index only for rule of cool type stuff, the vast majority of things people are complaining about are better than all their codex counterparts so people run them. Alternatively, while people are assuming that nobody will use the models once they are de-facto banned from matched play, this could be something that drives people to open play.
Most of the models are relatively small(nothing bigger than a biker?) so it wouldn't be too hard to transport a handful of extra models so you have a "Legends" list as well as a "Matched play" list. Not very different from EDH players who swap cards between multiple decks depending on the power level of the table.
Super great, i find that perfect, as do my over 4000 pts renegades and heretics.
DominayTrix wrote: Pretty happy with this change to be honest. While there are plenty of people who used index only for rule of cool type stuff, the vast majority of things people are complaining about are better than all their codex counterparts so people run them. Alternatively, while people are assuming that nobody will use the models once they are de-facto banned from matched play, this could be something that drives people to open play.
Most of the models are relatively small(nothing bigger than a biker?) so it wouldn't be too hard to transport a handful of extra models so you have a "Legends" list as well as a "Matched play" list. Not very different from EDH players who swap cards between multiple decks depending on the power level of the table.
Super great, i find that perfect, as do my over 4000 pts renegades and heretics.
Have an Honorary-shill-marine.
I think it's pretty clear that GW is marching towards a Servants book in the future that would likely be far better than anything R&H has had - including models.
DominayTrix wrote: Pretty happy with this change to be honest. While there are plenty of people who used index only for rule of cool type stuff, the vast majority of things people are complaining about are better than all their codex counterparts so people run them. Alternatively, while people are assuming that nobody will use the models once they are de-facto banned from matched play, this could be something that drives people to open play.
Most of the models are relatively small(nothing bigger than a biker?) so it wouldn't be too hard to transport a handful of extra models so you have a "Legends" list as well as a "Matched play" list. Not very different from EDH players who swap cards between multiple decks depending on the power level of the table.
Super great, i find that perfect, as do my over 4000 pts renegades and heretics.
Have an Honorary-shill-marine.
I think it's pretty clear that GW is marching towards a Servants book in the future that would likely be far better than anything R&H has had - including models.
Scuseme , HOW THE FETH IS FARTGAS FLAMER GUY Better then the old command squad The only thing better, and that is debatable, is that GW would write the rules ergo 95 % of not worth with 5 % broken.
Marine players are all like "wwwwwaaaaaahhhh my models will still have rules and I can still play them in casual games and some TOs may still allow me to play with my models waaaahhhh woe is me"
Mean while Dark Eldar players are still looking for the half of their army that disappeared when their codex was released in 7th. Be thankful you can still play with your models you filthy ingrates some armys dont get that luxury.
You mistake my position. I find your assessment of GW's rules to be incorrect and overblown.
Is it though?
Or are you now just blindly accepting GW standard.
List the units that are currently brokenly OP.
Furthermore, if "95% of units are not worth it" then doesn't that actually mean that 95% of the units are balanced? Maybe you're so focused on hating GW that you forgot what balance looks like...
Ishagu wrote: Before people start crying bout having their factions "crapped" on, remember that the Legends announcement comes alongside the declaration of new campaign books that will bring new units to EVERY faction.
It doesnt guarantee new units for every faction.
Just that every faction will have something new, be it models, rules or war gear.
Gw basically just told me my army is no invalidated so, what's going to happen? They are going to loose players. Like personally I'm done with 8th. It's a gak edition that's only been watered down more and more for the lowest common denominator of player base that did not want to put in any effort to learn the game. As a result we lost soul to the game. My deathwing and raven wing armies are pretty much perma shelfed now.
Enjoy 8th if you like it, it's been a fun 10 years for me, but think I'm done playing 40k now.
Backspacehacker wrote: Gw basically just told me my army is no invalidated so, what's going to happen?
Presumes facts not in evidence.
Gw has left captains, Chaplin's, librarians, and interogstor Chaplin's that can go in or on a bike in the index since launch, or in terminator armor.
Basically if you don't have a model made, your going into ledgends. Deathwing and raven wing are never going to get an update. My army has been mothballed. That's not an opinion that's a fact, GW does not care about you if you are not a primaris player, as every launch of models have shown that.
This is absolutely what it felt like being a tomb king
Backspacehacker wrote: Gw basically just told me my army is no invalidated so, what's going to happen?
Presumes facts not in evidence.
Gw has left captains, Chaplin's, librarians, and interogstor Chaplin's that can go in or on a bike in the index since launch, or in terminator armor.
Basically if you don't have a model made, your going into ledgends. Deathwing and raven wing are never going to get an update. My army has been mothballed. That's not an opinion that's a fact, GW does not care about you if you are not a primaris player, as every launch of models have shown that.
This is absolutely what it felt like being a tomb king
Captain on a Bike has been in both SM books, though I agree regarding the other characters.
I would guess that "Master on Bike" doesn't exist in the DA book because Sammael does, and he is the Master of the Ravenwing, after all...
Basically if you don't have a model made, your going into ledgends. Deathwing and raven wing are never going to get an update. My army has been mothballed. That's not an opinion that's a fact, GW does not care about you if you are not a primaris player, as every launch of models have shown that.
This is absolutely what it felt like being a tomb king
Legends explicitly allows for these units to be fielded.
Basically if you don't have a model made, your going into ledgends. Deathwing and raven wing are never going to get an update. My army has been mothballed. That's not an opinion that's a fact, GW does not care about you if you are not a primaris player, as every launch of models have shown that.
This is absolutely what it felt like being a tomb king
Legends explicitly allows for these units to be fielded.
Check it again, they explicitly say, they will not recommend or consider ledgends units for competative play. It's exactly what happened to tomb Kings. You get thrown on the bottom shelf and left to collect dust and are not allowed to play in tournaments anymore. It's pretty gakky honestly. You spend 10 + years collecting building painting and playing an army you really grew to love only to have them thrown to the side one day and told yeah you can't play in tournaments anymore, feels batman. Feels real batman
Check it again, they explicitly say, they will not recommend or consider ledgends units for competative play. It's exactly what happened to tomb Kings. You get thrown on the bottom shelf and left to collect dust and are not allowed to play in tournaments anymore. It's pretty gakky honestly. You spend 10 + years collecting building painting and playing an army you really grew to love only to have them thrown to the side one day and told yeah you can't play in tournaments anymore, feels batman. Feels real batman
I've read the statement extensively. They are providing permanent rules support for these units, alongside a points cost so they can be used in matched play. The reason they are not recommending them for tournament play is because they are not providing ongoing points revisions. In a living ruleset, that is not the best for competitive play.
You are explicitly allowed to play your army. If you choose not to, it is by your own choice, not GWs.
Check it again, they explicitly say, they will not recommend or consider ledgends units for competative play. It's exactly what happened to tomb Kings. You get thrown on the bottom shelf and left to collect dust and are not allowed to play in tournaments anymore. It's pretty gakky honestly. You spend 10 + years collecting building painting and playing an army you really grew to love only to have them thrown to the side one day and told yeah you can't play in tournaments anymore, feels batman. Feels real batman
I have shelves full of models I don't play with anymore. Doesn't mean I'm mad about it.
I don't play Warcraft 1 or 2. Or Starcraft. Or World of Warcraft. Or HOMM3.
That doesn't mean i'm pissed that I spent money on those things when the companies that made them put out new versions. And it doesn't mean when I might not enjoy newer versions as much that my rose tinted nostalgia glasses are telling me the truth about how good the games 'used to be'.
Check it again, they explicitly say, they will not recommend or consider ledgends units for competative play. It's exactly what happened to tomb Kings. You get thrown on the bottom shelf and left to collect dust and are not allowed to play in tournaments anymore. It's pretty gakky honestly. You spend 10 + years collecting building painting and playing an army you really grew to love only to have them thrown to the side one day and told yeah you can't play in tournaments anymore, feels batman. Feels real batman
I have shelves full of models I don't play with anymore. Doesn't mean I'm mad about it.
I don't play Warcraft 1 or 2. Or Starcraft. Or World of Warcraft. Or HOMM3.
That doesn't mean i'm pissed that I spent money on those things when the companies that made them put out new versions. And it doesn't mean when I might not enjoy newer versions as much that my rose tinted nostalgia glasses are telling me the truth about how good the games 'used to be'.
That's nice that you feel that way, but I got into 40k because of my army, I played it because of my army. The way you play does not invalidate my interests in the hobby, nor does mine invalidate yours.
You have other armies you enjoy and that's cool, good for you, I don't that much. Imagine if your favorite army was all you played and then one day GW just said hey want don't want you to play anymore and just says you can totally buy all these other armies that don't interest you at all to keep playing. At that point why are you playing and buying armies you don't enjoy?
DominayTrix wrote: Pretty happy with this change to be honest. While there are plenty of people who used index only for rule of cool type stuff, the vast majority of things people are complaining about are better than all their codex counterparts so people run them. Alternatively, while people are assuming that nobody will use the models once they are de-facto banned from matched play, this could be something that drives people to open play.
Most of the models are relatively small(nothing bigger than a biker?) so it wouldn't be too hard to transport a handful of extra models so you have a "Legends" list as well as a "Matched play" list. Not very different from EDH players who swap cards between multiple decks depending on the power level of the table.
Super great, i find that perfect, as do my over 4000 pts renegades and heretics.
Have an Honorary-shill-marine.
That's exactly why I said there are plenty of people who use indexes for rule of cool. R&H is played for style, but has GW said anything to make us think that FW indexes are going away other than typical GW hamfisted language?
Hey, GW could have just silently shoved these models under the carpet and never spoke of them again. Instead, they’re taking the time to make these stats for “discontinued” models available - for free.
Personally, I already have the indexes, and still use them, so I care little what GW does Legendwise (Though if they put up the stats for the marine with the Beamer/death gun, that’s something I don’t have now...). No matter what they do, they can’t take my Roughriders away from me.
However, I also don’t believe their “FOREVER” bit - come 9th edition, I don’t see them taking the time to update these again, and suspect they’ll drop off the website a few months after release of a new edition.
I have shelves full of models I don't play with anymore. Doesn't mean I'm mad about it.
I don't play Warcraft 1 or 2. Or Starcraft. Or World of Warcraft. Or HOMM3.
That doesn't mean i'm pissed that I spent money on those things when the companies that made them put out new versions. And it doesn't mean when I might not enjoy newer versions as much that my rose tinted nostalgia glasses are telling me the truth about how good the games 'used to be'.
Let me guess, when you shelved those armies, you were able to start a new army right? Because if you army gets phased out, and you can't buy in to a new one, it becomes a rather different thing.
I wonder what GW is going to do with all the Grey Knight characters, all but one are resin or metal. And don't make those models anymore. So future Grey Knight codex are only going to have Voldus and NDK as HQ?
Let me guess, when you shelved those armies, you were able to start a new army right? Because if you army gets phased out, and you can't buy in to a new one, it becomes a rather different thing.
I wonder what GW is going to do with all the Grey Knight characters, all but one are resin or metal. And don't make those models anymore. So future Grey Knight codex are only going to have Voldus and NDK as HQ?
The only army that has ever been "phased out" is squats. Banshees are also resin and they are getting new models.
Ishagu wrote: Before people start crying bout having their factions "crapped" on, remember that the Legends announcement comes alongside the declaration of new campaign books that will bring new units to EVERY faction.
Let me guess, when you shelved those armies, you were able to start a new army right? Because if you army gets phased out, and you can't buy in to a new one, it becomes a rather different thing.
I wonder what GW is going to do with all the Grey Knight characters, all but one are resin or metal. And don't make those models anymore. So future Grey Knight codex are only going to have Voldus and NDK as HQ?
The only army that has ever been "phased out" is squats. Banshees are also resin and they are getting new models.
Cool, I didn't know that. Everyone keep scaring me with Grey knight being given no new rules anymore.
Ishagu wrote: Before people start crying bout having their factions "crapped" on, remember that the Legends announcement comes alongside the declaration of new campaign books that will bring new units to EVERY faction.
They only promised new rules not models
Isn't there a rule that says you can't get new rules without new models?
Cool, I didn't know that. Everyone keep scaring me with Grey knight being given no new rules anymore.
I don't think you need to be scared. Grey Knights occupy a very specific place in the lore. That GW has said in no uncertain terms that GK won't be Primaris'd, but that doesn't mean they're going away. It might even mean people worried about old marines going away might also be overblown.
Add onto that Inquisition getting the nod for Psychic Awakening makes me very unconcerned for the future of GK.
Now you have all of the current models legal for general play but now you'll have a legends format where everything is legal.
At least GW isn't coming out saying "yeah all those index units are never gonna be supported ever again, so use them as paper weights"
In essence it's a polite way of saying screw you your models count for nothing anymore.
Doesn't make it better, especially when we get 10000000000000000 marine books
How? They said they were gonna support it forever and on a case by case basis tournaments are gonna host them. Weren't indexes not aloud to be used at tournaments before?
redboi wrote: Man am I so glad that Orks got 6 new monopose buggies instead of kits for all our core options that don't have any
The ork buggies were old as dirt. Those were the best kits to get targeted.
If they were dead set on doing buggies, most people would have been happier with a kit or two with interchangeable war gear options. 6 monopose kits and a worthless mek building was a touch overkill and unwanted
Orks have a bunch of options that are not even old, they are NON EXISTENT. We were told "well you can still convert them and use the index!". now that's gone. Buggies were a failure rules wise and model wise. I've never seen a single one fielded .
as an ork player it is kind of infuriating that a lot of our HQs are index only and now will be seemingly nto for use in tournaments when our best HQ is an index only option.
G00fySmiley wrote: as an ork player it is kind of infuriating that a lot of our HQs are index only and now will be seemingly nto for use in tournaments when our best HQ is an index only option.
Hey maybe well get lucky and get that BT/Ork box set with a new HQ. Probably not, but one can dream.
G00fySmiley wrote: as an ork player it is kind of infuriating that a lot of our HQs are index only and now will be seemingly nto for use in tournaments when our best HQ is an index only option.
It's not even that. It's "a couple HQs that are more point efficient and/or safer than the codex options". The wartrike IS the new warboss on a bike despite desires to deliver the relic klaw as cheaply and easily as possible, because mathammer tells you it will efficiently hurt a knight.
Now you have all of the current models legal for general play but now you'll have a legends format where everything is legal.
At least GW isn't coming out saying "yeah all those index units are never gonna be supported ever again, so use them as paper weights"
In essence it's a polite way of saying screw you your models count for nothing anymore.
Doesn't make it better, especially when we get 10000000000000000 marine books
How? They said they were gonna support it forever and on a case by case basis tournaments are gonna host them. Weren't indexes not aloud to be used at tournaments before?
Not all Formats allowed them.
Additionally the community has also taken over other tournament suggestions soo yes, in Essence if you own a FW army that ends up in legends you potentially are fethed.
Lord Damocles wrote: Does anybody actually believe GW's claim that they'll support Legends forever?
I think they'll do well to be supported beyond the end of this edition, so maybe a year or two tops.
Well they could release one book with all the units in and keep it as direct order online for years to come?
honestly I see them doing it every edition. the book will sell well enough and they just set values for points, input wargear as it was and every edition tens of thousands of people will buy the book to play with their old toys. As somebody with a large collection and several models out of print or conversions for never released models... i can say i would buy that book every edition assuming nothing in my financial situation changes significantly. currently as a $40 book i would look at it as not quite an hours wage and say yea.. thats a book worth an hour of work for me.
G00fySmiley wrote: as an ork player it is kind of infuriating that a lot of our HQs are index only and now will be seemingly nto for use in tournaments when our best HQ is an index only option.
It's not even that. It's "a couple HQs that are more point efficient and/or safer than the codex options". The wartrike IS the new warboss on a bike despite desires to deliver the relic klaw as cheaply and easily as possible, because mathammer tells you it will efficiently hurt a knight.
He does not look like a Warboss, nor does he he have Warboss rules.
Lord Damocles wrote: Does anybody actually believe GW's claim that they'll support Legends forever?
I think they'll do well to be supported beyond the end of this edition, so maybe a year or two tops.
If 9th is a cleaned up version of 8th, then it's not a big deal to do whatever minimal changes are needed to Legends to support the promise. It could be 20 years till the next total reboot.
G00fySmiley wrote: as an ork player it is kind of infuriating that a lot of our HQs are index only and now will be seemingly nto for use in tournaments when our best HQ is an index only option.
It's not even that. It's "a couple HQs that are more point efficient and/or safer than the codex options". The wartrike IS the new warboss on a bike despite desires to deliver the relic klaw as cheaply and easily as possible, because mathammer tells you it will efficiently hurt a knight.
So, use the Warboss on foot. In a horde melee army that gets reroll any dice for charging adding infantry advance and charge bubble to a 14" move model up ends making it far too easy to just push a giant blob of models into someone's face. Or, if your goal is to have a low-effort way to deliver S12 rerollable wound attacks to a knight more easily than a smash captain.
Let's face it. If the wartrike had the relic klaw this wouldn't even be a conversation.
I think it is a good thing that they have a solid plan for legacy models, and I hope and believe that they will keep this working trough edition changes.
Ultimately your models will still be usable. Of course there is a huge segment of people who think that playing with toy soldiers is super serious business, and random games in a local store must follow the strictest possible tournament standards and thus will refuse to use these perfectly valid rules. I also expect at least half of those people will complain about units being removed, whilst in reality they have just been moved into Legends. Oh well, that's really not GWs fault.
A big question is what will happen to a relatively recent plastic units that still do not have a proper codex. Assassins, SoS, the Inquisition (well, Greyfax...) I really think they should make a dedicated 'Imperial Agents' book in which these could go. They could also put various Killteam and BSF stuff in there. Rogue Traders, Navigators etc. It doesn't need to be a proper army, just write the rules so that you can easily spice up your Imperial army with those units without losing your army boni.
Cool, I didn't know that. Everyone keep scaring me with Grey knight being given no new rules anymore.
I don't think you need to be scared. Grey Knights occupy a very specific place in the lore. That GW has said in no uncertain terms that GK won't be Primaris'd, but that doesn't mean they're going away. It might even mean people worried about old marines going away might also be overblown.
Add onto that Inquisition getting the nod for Psychic Awakening makes me very unconcerned for the future of GK.
Inquisition didn't get a nod on the Psychic Awakening graphic (unless they've redone it for a third time) - Deathwatch, Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle all did.
Which means, Karol, you'll see new rules for something relating to Grey Knights during that cycle of books. I've no idea what, mind you, but something.
Crimson wrote: Of course there is a huge segment of people who think that playing with toy soldiers is super serious business
People don't universally follow MP rules because they're seriously serious, they do it because these rules give at least a semblance and hope of balance and fairness and a chance for their army to get fixed in the future and stay relevant.
I think the more ironic issues with Legends is it is going to drive people to Competitive play.
Some model combo in it is going to be stupid broken. Maybe just Castellan with Raven Strat, or maybe some new ruling that affects something and makes them broken.
And then they have no path to fix it.
And then people hate playing it, and want to not play it, and ohh over here is Competitive play where Jimmy doesn't get to play stupid no fun Whatever it is.
Inquisition didn't get a nod on the Psychic Awakening graphic (unless they've redone it for a third time) - Deathwatch, Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle all did.
Which means, Karol, you'll see new rules for something relating to Grey Knights during that cycle of books. I've no idea what, mind you, but something.
*Shrug* - the character in the video is an ordo xenos inquisitor.
Cool, I didn't know that. Everyone keep scaring me with Grey knight being given no new rules anymore.
I don't think you need to be scared. Grey Knights occupy a very specific place in the lore. That GW has said in no uncertain terms that GK won't be Primaris'd, but that doesn't mean they're going away. It might even mean people worried about old marines going away might also be overblown.
Add onto that Inquisition getting the nod for Psychic Awakening makes me very unconcerned for the future of GK.
Inquisition didn't get a nod on the Psychic Awakening graphic (unless they've redone it for a third time) - Deathwatch, Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle all did.
Which means, Karol, you'll see new rules for something relating to Grey Knights during that cycle of books. I've no idea what, mind you, but something.
Karol wrote: Isn't there a rule that says you can't get new rules without new models?
You can't get rules for units that don't have models.
However, you can have new rules without needing new models.
Bear in mind that Warlord Traits, Stratagems, Artefacts etc. are all rules but none are reliant on having new models.
I guess Grey Knight are special then, because we don't have a brother captin, librarian or chapter master, but we do have rules for them.
Which means, Karol, you'll see new rules for something relating to Grey Knights during that cycle of books. I've no idea what, mind you, but something.
Well as long as is not going to be nerfs, it is going to be interesting to get new stuff.
You may want to tell GW that, because they're currently selling all three on their webstore.
they are selling them, but those are resin models. And they no longer make new ones fo those. And the articles says that units GW no longer makes,nothing about no longer sells, are going to be moved to legend. Stores that aren't GW can't order the resin models, at least my store can't, and the polish GW store has them on other only, as they don't have them on site.
You may want to tell GW that, because they're currently selling all three on their webstore.
they are selling them, but those are resin models. And they no longer make new ones fo those. And the articles says that units GW no longer makes,nothing about no longer sells, are going to be moved to legend. Stores that aren't GW can't order the resin models, at least my store can't, and the polish GW store has them on other only, as they don't have them on site.
If you don't count Resin (or even older Metals), they don't "make" half the Eldar line.
they are selling them, but those are resin models. And they no longer make new ones fo those. And the articles says that units GW no longer makes,nothing about no longer sells, are going to be moved to legend. Stores that aren't GW can't order the resin models, at least my store can't, and the polish GW store has them on other only, as they don't have them on site.
Thats not even remotely an accurate understanding of how they're doing the 40K Legends.
G00fySmiley wrote: as an ork player it is kind of infuriating that a lot of our HQs are index only and now will be seemingly nto for use in tournaments when our best HQ is an index only option.
It's not even that. It's "a couple HQs that are more point efficient and/or safer than the codex options". The wartrike IS the new warboss on a bike despite desires to deliver the relic klaw as cheaply and easily as possible, because mathammer tells you it will efficiently hurt a knight.
So, use the Warboss on foot. In a horde melee army that gets reroll any dice for charging adding infantry advance and charge bubble to a 14" move model up ends making it far too easy to just push a giant blob of models into someone's face. Or, if your goal is to have a low-effort way to deliver S12 rerollable wound attacks to a knight more easily than a smash captain.
Let's face it. If the wartrike had the relic klaw this wouldn't even be a conversation.
He doesn't look like a proper warboss anymore either There is a reason everyone converts theirs. You must have missed the part where ork players are always asking for a warboss kit. But the wartriker is even smaller than him. He's more like a nob with a shrunken head.
IDK why you are trying to make it controversial to want a biker boss. It's been a pretty standard classic option forever. Don't let him take a relic claw IDGAF. If that was the only issue I can already take a warboss on foot and jump/DS him and have 95% the same effect.
G00fySmiley wrote: as an ork player it is kind of infuriating that a lot of our HQs are index only and now will be seemingly nto for use in tournaments when our best HQ is an index only option.
It's not even that. It's "a couple HQs that are more point efficient and/or safer than the codex options". The wartrike IS the new warboss on a bike despite desires to deliver the relic klaw as cheaply and easily as possible, because mathammer tells you it will efficiently hurt a knight.
So, use the Warboss on foot. In a horde melee army that gets reroll any dice for charging adding infantry advance and charge bubble to a 14" move model up ends making it far too easy to just push a giant blob of models into someone's face. Or, if your goal is to have a low-effort way to deliver S12 rerollable wound attacks to a knight more easily than a smash captain.
Let's face it. If the wartrike had the relic klaw this wouldn't even be a conversation.
just to point out here the only warboss kit GW sells doe snot have an option for a powerclaw either so... liek using current official GW models you cannot take the kustom claw outside a big mek in mega armor.
Honestly I take the warboss on a bike even in a horde list because the warboss rules for move advance and charge are really important to us. the biek insures that I dont' fetch it all up by rolling to low on the warboss run and having to daisy chain ork boyz back to him to get to still charge. also if i have 120 boys maybe 2 groups can move and not need to advance to charge, but another group does... that biek lets me get there to let them do that.
Honestly I take the warboss on a bike even in a horde list because the warboss rules for move advance and charge are really important to us. the biek insures that I dont' fetch it all up by rolling to low on the warboss run and having to daisy chain ork boyz back to him to get to still charge. also if i have 120 boys maybe 2 groups can move and not need to advance to charge, but another group does... that biek lets me get there to let them do that.
White Scars get charge & advance, but rerolls to charges are hard to come by. BT get reroll charges, but no advance and charge.
If you find lack of coverage for boyz then a second warboss would be necessary. A 6" tail is two models out of 30. I know the desire is to have the easier and more flexible unit, but that doesn't seem to be the dynamic GW wants to balance around (yet).
If GW really wanted the game balanced, it would be. They don't want balance they want controlled imbalance to believe otherwise is to assume they are the worst at their jobs.
If they wanted real balance they'd trim all the options and have the armies all be as close to each other game play wise as possible as only then would skill really be the only deciding factor.
You don't factor in balance by tossing out a million bloated formations, strats, relics , traits all the allies , etc etc. All it does is breed into the system a zillion ways for the game to be very much imbalanced, and so it is. The game will never be a balanced game of skill, it's not what it's about no matter how hard some want to feel it is or will be.
It's a fun experience played with interesting models and enjoyable rules for fun while trying to win.
The index options were already being quietly phased by the community itself because people just delight in saying no to each other, all GW did is say " It's ok Jimmy, you can tell them no now, we said its ok " so now there isn't even a moment of shame about it.
Personally once it drops all my lists with be matched play legends lists, even if I take none of the legends models. I endorse most people taking this stance for pick up games. You want to be safe from all the scary bad fun old models, just hit up a tournament there you will be safe to be crushed by whatever the OP broken mess of the month is without hiding from warboss bikers doing donuts on your armys face.
If GW were doing this Legends thing in the best possible way, they wouldn't need that special category. They'd just have another "way to play" going beyond matched, explicitly for Tournament play. Their approach makes using these older models the exception to the rules, rather than making Tournament play the separate and distinctive way to play it is.
These different units are becoming their own category that will be excluded by everyone... as communities are too often driven by precedent set in the Tournament scene, even if they play friendlier. If this Legends thing were more ideal it would mean these units could finally get rules and point value more truly representative of their concept and capabilities with fewer point costs being driven by efficiency and the desire to sell... and less eventual down playing and nerfing of rules to sell newer toys.
I want to point out while we're talking about units in indexes being rolled into this special category, no one has really mentioned that almost all the FW units are in their own indexes. So wouldn't that imply those expensive models would also get rolled into Legends?
@mythos: Chances are high that atleast all non good selling fw40k lists that got oop get moved there.
Basically elysians, eldar Corsairs and ofcourse renegades and heretics.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I could tell even if sometimes you have to fight alone, I do see allies are out there who feel the same, like yourself.
You see my issue is less the inherent unbalance of a game this vast.
My issue is how people are accepting often the blatant lie that Gw even attempts to give everyone equal long pikes, when in reality half the factions get foam equipment mostly whilest others get fully masterpieces of hallberds.
And also the fact that Gw doesn't even attempt to actually do something about it.
As for ca. GW is the only company that gets (mostly) away with selling a balance Patch.
1. They have effectively ensured that no tournament will allow index models with their "recommendation".
2. Many players (myself for example) play with competitive tournament rules even in casual games.
3. Since the points are never going to be updated again the models are not actually supported forever because sooner or later their points will be completely out of sync with everything else.
4. It reduces the flexibility of many units. This makes the game less dynamic and much more boring.
5. It is not in keeping with the fluff that there is no MA Warboss outside of Ghazzy, yet Meks and Nobs have access to Mega Armour. It does not make any sense that an Autarch, the pinnacle of Aeldari mortal warfare that have mastered every aspect, take the same weapons every time they go to war. A Warboss can't jump or steal a bike but a Boy can? Rubbish.
I really dislike this ethos of "here is your model, you get 0 flexibility because it must take everything it is supplied with on the model and that is that". It kills fun kitbashing and modelling conversions. It kills the fun tactical choices that 40k was once known for. It is only a negative. Beyond the obvious (money), I see no possible reason why I can't elect to take a Big Mek with a KFF and no Mega Armour. The model I spent hours converting and painting has been rendered unplayable by GW. Luckily I used the FW Warboss on Bike model so I'm guessing I can play him as Zhadsnark. Otherwise that's another 15, 20 hours wasted. There are countless other players with Warbosses on Bikes, Painboyz on Bikes, Big Meks on Bikes, MA Warbosses etc etc etc
It's a slap in the face of every one of these players and they/we are right to be pissed. At least we all know how Dark Eldar players feel now though, right?
1. They have effectively ensured that no tournament will allow index models with their "recommendation".
Probably. Or the tournament organisers could think for themselves.
2. Many players (myself for example) play with competitive tournament rules even in casual games.
Well, you know, how about you don't?
3. Since the points are never going to be updated again the models are not actually supported forever because sooner or later their points will be completely out of sync with everything else.
This might be a problem in the long run. I hope they review them at least during edition changes.
It's a slap in the face of every one of these players and they/we are right to be pissed. At least we all know how Dark Eldar players feel now though, right?
De got it shity indeed, however eldar Corsairs, ohhh boi, a local guy has some nice words reserved for that situation.
The legends units can be still be used in competitive games. I may use some real stinker units, but I always play to win as hard as I can. There isn't a difference to me in play style.
I won't go, " Oh, Legends can be here, I just don't care now, the game is so unbalanced now, how can I take it seriously ? "
Competitive or not is how you play, at least to me. Why would I deny someone their warboss on bike, but happily play against a full knight list ?
How can you deny a full knight list, or OP cheese list if its legal but then deny a legend unit because it's illegal ? Is there some rule I'm missing that forces you to play certain things but blocks out others ? As long as they have points, they'd be allowable on my board. If some combo utterly wrecks the game I'll have to assume my adult gamer friends will work it out with me regardless of who it benefits. That is assuming even that any of these issues could even spring up, when I really doubt they will.
The same way you don't take ball busting lists against your friends in every game, we can do more than we give ourselves credit for. We don't need GW to spoon feed us what we should and should not allow if they have points, and rules for the game, game on. Legends all the way.
aka_mythos wrote: If GW were doing this Legends thing in the best possible way, they wouldn't need that special category. They'd just have another "way to play" going beyond matched, explicitly for Tournament play. Their approach makes using these older models the exception to the rules, rather than making Tournament play the separate and distinctive way to play it is.
These different units are becoming their own category that will be excluded by everyone... as communities are too often driven by precedent set in the Tournament scene, even if they play friendlier. If this Legends thing were more ideal it would mean these units could finally get rules and point value more truly representative of their concept and capabilities with fewer point costs being driven by efficiency and the desire to sell... and less eventual down playing and nerfing of rules to sell newer toys.
I want to point out while we're talking about units in indexes being rolled into this special category, no one has really mentioned that almost all the FW units are in their own indexes. So wouldn't that imply those expensive models would also get rolled into Legends?
This is GW being as they always have when it comes to FW, pretend it doesn't exsist and hope everyone forgets about the other part of the company.
Whats more worryibg is the obly Announcement FW were allowed to make was we'll find out a big announcement in 2 weeks time.
Like seriously who actually is in control of the communications department as they need sacked.
1. They have effectively ensured that no tournament will allow index models with their "recommendation".
Probably. Or the tournament organisers could think for themselves.
Yep, they could also "think for themselves" and do away with the whole dice rolling mechanic in favour of players having a slapping contest. They will stick to the suggested rules exclusively.
An Actual Englishman wrote: 3. Since the points are never going to be updated again the models are not actually supported forever because sooner or later their points will be completely out of sync with everything else.
This might be a problem in the long run. I hope they review them at least during edition changes.
They've literally said they won't be updated.
GW wrote:Once we’ve assigned them their final points, they won’t be part of that ongoing balance review – and we won’t be recommending Legends units for competitive tournaments.
...because it's how my friends and gaming group prefer how to play?
Then advocate for a change. Are they your frtiends? Besides, you're probably not the only one whose units end up in the Legends. The rules will exist, and they can be easily used if only the players choose to do so.
They've literally said they won't be updated.
Which means they wont be in CA. But if there would be an edition change with significant rule alterations they would need to redo the Legend unit rules anyway. Also, couple of units being a tiny bit more out such in their points than the rest is hardly a big deal. It's not like GW's point balance is particularly exact science to begin with.
...because it's how my friends and gaming group prefer how to play?
Then advocate for a change. Are they your frtiends? Besides, you're probably not the only one whose units end up in the Legends. The rules will exist, and they can be easily used if only the players choose to do so.
They've literally said they won't be updated.
Which means they wont be in CA. But if there would be an edition change with significant rule alterations they would need to redo the Legend unit rules anyway. Also, couple of units being a tiny bit more out such in their points than the rest is hardly a big deal. It's not like GW's point balance is particularly exact science to begin with.
Let's be real their claim of infinite support is bollocks the size of the Gotthard (a huge fething Mountain area wise).
Next edition top in two editions legend units will be dead.
For the community they will mostlikely die on arrival of this rule.
Crimson wrote: Then advocate for a change. Are they your frtiends? Besides, you're probably not the only one whose units end up in the Legends. The rules will exist, and they can be easily used if only the players choose to do so
I don't think you understand. We choose to play how tournaments play. I dislike the fact that GW have decided to make many of my favourite units unplayable in this regard. Yes I could advocate for change. I could also advocate for a slapping contest instead of rolling dice, it doesn't mean that our group will go for it.
Which means they wont be in CA. But if there would be an edition change with significant rule alterations they would need to redo the Legend unit rules anyway. Also, couple of units being a tiny bit more out such in their points than the rest is hardly a big deal. It's not like GW's point balance is particularly exact science to begin with.
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that "legends" will be looked at ever again after theirfinal points costing. There is also no evidence to suggest that anything will be looked at again if/when the edition changes. Finally there is no evidence to suggest that it will be a "couple" of units that are a "tiny bit more out". It will be tens of units that could use an entirely different pointing structure to future game structures. We could be playing 1000 or 100 point games as standard in the future and these units are pointed for 2000 point matches.
I find it incredible that anyone can look at this marketing article and believe that GW are actually supporting any of these units. This is simply step 1 of the squatting process.
Let's be real their claim of infinite support is bollocks the size of the Gotthard (a huge fething Mountain area wise).
Next edition top in two editions legend units will be dead.
Well of course it is not infinite in reality, but they were pretty adamant about FOREVER. I think they mean to commit to it. Aren't all the FB legacy rules for AOS still in existence?
For the community they will mostlikely die on arrival of this rule.
Again. If you refuse to use the rules provided for you, then it's on you.
Let's be real their claim of infinite support is bollocks the size of the Gotthard (a huge fething Mountain area wise).
Next edition top in two editions legend units will be dead.
Well of course it is not infinite in reality, but they were pretty adamant about FOREVER. I think they mean to commit to it. Aren't all the FB legacy rules for AOS still in existence?
For the community they will mostlikely die on arrival of this rule.
Again. If you refuse to use the rules provided for you, then it's on you.
I won't and can't doesn't mean that i can enforce them though now doesn't it.
Ultimately your models will still be usable. Of course there is a huge segment of people who think that playing with toy soldiers is super serious business, and random games in a local store must follow the strictest possible tournament standards and thus will refuse to use these perfectly valid rules. I also expect at least half of those people will complain about units being removed, whilst in reality they have just been moved into Legends. Oh well, that's really not GWs fault.
Oh wow, it happened faster than I expected! People literally refuse to use these rules, then at the same breath complain that they cannot use these rules! Unbelievable!
I don't think anyone is saying this isn't a knife in the back with a smile from GW.
They phrased it in such a way to make it ok to deny the models.
Some are just saying we will allow them in our games and all you are doing by disallowing them is doing exactly what GW want which is us to limit ourselves and attack each other so they can look like " the good guy " while the bad guy is all of us saying no to each other. It's really quite clever of them and wrong at the same time.
As well saying getting people to accept legends is the same as exchanging dice for slapping contests is about as hyperbolic a comment as I'll ever read.
Accept Legends, don't do what GW wants you to do and fight back and think for yourself in regards to your games. They'll have rules, use them, they'll have points, use them. Don't cry GW took it all away and let group think rob you of your favorite models or units.
Overall, I think once the panic fades, Legends match play lists will be a thing. They just need people to actually have fun playing the game and not just slave their desires to tournament group think. The game wasn't a balance paradise before Legends was announced and it won't be any worse off with legends units are formalized.
Unless I'm missing all those index units dominating all the tournaments out there.
1. They have effectively ensured that no tournament will allow index models with their "recommendation".
2. Many players (myself for example) play with competitive tournament rules even in casual games.
3. Since the points are never going to be updated again the models are not actually supported forever because sooner or later their points will be completely out of sync with everything else.
4. It reduces the flexibility of many units. This makes the game less dynamic and much more boring.
5. It is not in keeping with the fluff that there is no MA Warboss outside of Ghazzy, yet Meks and Nobs have access to Mega Armour. It does not make any sense that an Autarch, the pinnacle of Aeldari mortal warfare that have mastered every aspect, take the same weapons every time they go to war. A Warboss can't jump or steal a bike but a Boy can? Rubbish.
I really dislike this ethos of "here is your model, you get 0 flexibility because it must take everything it is supplied with on the model and that is that". It kills fun kitbashing and modelling conversions. It kills the fun tactical choices that 40k was once known for. It is only a negative. Beyond the obvious (money), I see no possible reason why I can't elect to take a Big Mek with a KFF and no Mega Armour. The model I spent hours converting and painting has been rendered unplayable by GW. Luckily I used the FW Warboss on Bike model so I'm guessing I can play him as Zhadsnark. Otherwise that's another 15, 20 hours wasted. There are countless other players with Warbosses on Bikes, Painboyz on Bikes, Big Meks on Bikes, MA Warbosses etc etc etc
It's a slap in the face of every one of these players and they/we are right to be pissed.
Very much agreed.
I think Crimson suggested a much better solution recently. it was that GW should limit wargear based on what is available in a given model range, not on a specific model.
e.g. as long as there is a mega-armoured Ork unit (which can be converted), Ork Warbosses should be able to take mega-armour.
(Not that every model should have access to every piece of wargear - just that wargear should only be removed if it doesn't exist *anywhere* within the model range of the respective army.)
It's a slap in the face of every one of these players and they/we are right to be pissed. At least we all know how Dark Eldar players feel now though, right?
De got it shity indeed, however eldar Corsairs, ohhh boi, a local guy has some nice words reserved for that situation.
If he ever runs short of choice words, I'd be more than happy to lend him some of mine.
Ultimately your models will still be usable. Of course there is a huge segment of people who think that playing with toy soldiers is super serious business, and random games in a local store must follow the strictest possible tournament standards and thus will refuse to use these perfectly valid rules. I also expect at least half of those people will complain about units being removed, whilst in reality they have just been moved into Legends. Oh well, that's really not GWs fault.
Oh wow, it happened faster than I expected! People literally refuse to use these rules, then at the same breath complain that they cannot use these rules! Unbelievable!
You are not reading what I'm writing. The "choice" isn't mine alone. I'm not sure how you play, but I'm guessing it's not alone so you have a social contract with another person to play in a specified way. The way my group plays does not allow for me to use the units as I said above.
Nor are these rules "perfectly valid". They will likely be outdated on release because, as I previously stated, this is the first step on the squatting process.
AngryAngel80 wrote: As well saying getting people to accept legends is the same as exchanging dice for slapping contests is about as hyperbolic a comment as I'll ever read.
You must be new here.
Accept Legends, don't do what GW wants you to do and fight back and think for yourself in regards to your games. They'll have rules, use them, they'll have points, use them. Don't cry GW took it all away and let group think rob you of your favorite models or units.
See above, not my choice.
So if I'm not mistaken the brilliant advice I'm getting from you two is 'find a new gaming group'? Or 'somehow force/coerce/convince your gaming group to play a different system they have played for tens of years'. Brilliant. Thanks guys. Real useful.
AngryAngel80 wrote: If GW really wanted the game balanced, it would be. They don't want balance they want controlled imbalance to believe otherwise is to assume they are the worst at their jobs.
If they wanted real balance they'd trim all the options and have the armies all be as close to each other game play wise as possible as only then would skill really be the only deciding factor.
You don't factor in balance by tossing out a million bloated formations, strats, relics , traits all the allies , etc etc. All it does is breed into the system a zillion ways for the game to be very much imbalanced, and so it is. The game will never be a balanced game of skill, it's not what it's about no matter how hard some want to feel it is or will be.
It's a fun experience played with interesting models and enjoyable rules for fun while trying to win.
The index options were already being quietly phased by the community itself because people just delight in saying no to each other, all GW did is say " It's ok Jimmy, you can tell them no now, we said its ok " so now there isn't even a moment of shame about it.
Personally once it drops all my lists with be matched play legends lists, even if I take none of the legends models. I endorse most people taking this stance for pick up games. You want to be safe from all the scary bad fun old models, just hit up a tournament there you will be safe to be crushed by whatever the OP broken mess of the month is without hiding from warboss bikers doing donuts on your armys face.
My Librarian on bike will continue to be used since my bike strikeforce needs a Librarian and I'm thinking about building another. He also looks cool and seems to work for how I envisaged using him.
It is not different system. They were fine with the index stuff previously, but now that the exact same stuff gets labelled Legends, they aren't any more? That's just stupid.
And groups are made of people, and you, as a member of that group are contributing to the collective opinion of that group. If you want to use the Legends stuff, then advocate for it instead of being a defeatist. There is a good chance that there are others who agree.
AngryAngel80 wrote: If GW really wanted the game balanced, it would be. They don't want balance they want controlled imbalance to believe otherwise is to assume they are the worst at their jobs.
If they wanted real balance they'd trim all the options and have the armies all be as close to each other game play wise as possible as only then would skill really be the only deciding factor.
You don't factor in balance by tossing out a million bloated formations, strats, relics , traits all the allies , etc etc. All it does is breed into the system a zillion ways for the game to be very much imbalanced, and so it is. The game will never be a balanced game of skill, it's not what it's about no matter how hard some want to feel it is or will be.
It's a fun experience played with interesting models and enjoyable rules for fun while trying to win.
The index options were already being quietly phased by the community itself because people just delight in saying no to each other, all GW did is say " It's ok Jimmy, you can tell them no now, we said its ok " so now there isn't even a moment of shame about it.
Personally once it drops all my lists with be matched play legends lists, even if I take none of the legends models. I endorse most people taking this stance for pick up games. You want to be safe from all the scary bad fun old models, just hit up a tournament there you will be safe to be crushed by whatever the OP broken mess of the month is without hiding from warboss bikers doing donuts on your armys face.
My Librarian on bike will continue to be used since my bike strikeforce needs a Librarian and I'm thinking about building another. He also looks cool and seems to work for how I envisaged using him.
Good on you, I hope you do and I'll continue to use my models.
Crimson wrote: It is not different system. They were fine with the index stuff previously, but now that the exact same stuff gets labelled Legends, they aren't any more? That's just stupid.
And groups are made of people, and you, as a member of that group are contributing to the collective opinion of that group. If you want to use the Legends stuff, then advocate for it instead of being a defeatist. There is a good chance that there are others who agree.
There's a crucial change now though - saying they will never balance them going forward. That alone completely changes how people perceive these units.
Crimson wrote: It is not different system. They were fine with the index stuff previously, but now that the exact same stuff gets labelled Legends, they aren't any more? That's just stupid.
And groups are made of people, and you, as a member of that group are contributing to the collective opinion of that group. If you want to use the Legends stuff, then advocate for it instead of being a defeatist. There is a good chance that there are others who agree.
Adding to your response I'd say the advice we are giving is each group is just a collection of many parts. Be a voice for logic and reason and maybe you'll change the dynamic. Friendship is about give and take, and gaming friends are no different and if they don't see this is a pile of poop and have no considerations on if it hurts even one of their number, it isn't a very good group.
Hell I've got relative strangers on here right now who would not be afraid of running legends with me and they owe me nothing. There is no difference in them having been index and now legends other than a public announcement.
War games are unique in the fact that so much of it is a social contract between who you hope to be friends, this is only an issue if what GW lays down matters more to all of you than you do to each other.
Crimson wrote: It is not different system. They were fine with the index stuff previously, but now that the exact same stuff gets labelled Legends, they aren't any more? That's just stupid.
And groups are made of people, and you, as a member of that group are contributing to the collective opinion of that group. If you want to use the Legends stuff, then advocate for it instead of being a defeatist. There is a good chance that there are others who agree.
There's a crucial change now though - saying they will never balance them going forward. That alone completely changes how people perceive these units.
They were already not balancing the index options, it's not change at all but for the fact they said they won't, we already saw them not do so.
As I said before, for as many random converted units that aren't remotely effective, there are odd exploits like using the Index Imagifier with the Beta Codex AoF and Simulacrum rules; and as far as balance and competitive play goes, the random useless antiquated units with no use are effectively non-factors, but something like the Imagifier is an obvious point that you can't universally allow Index units in competitive play.
The problem is that once they've published something like the initial incarnation of the Imagifier, if Index units are permitted, they can never take it back, so while they've changed how the sticks interact with our army, the option to take the stick on a character exists and creates an interaction that is wholly unintended and arguably very unbalanced.
So, the bad units that are just random conversion don't matter if they're stricken from the roster, because it changes nothing, and the ones that provide unintended interactions or are otherwise "good" should be controlled, and the only real way to effectively control it is to enforce that only the most modern set of rules and units is permissible in competitive scenarios.
And groups are made of people, and you, as a member of that group are contributing to the collective opinion of that group. If you want to use the Legends stuff, then advocate for it instead of being a defeatist. There is a good chance that there are others who agree.
Oh gee whizz if only I had thought of this. Thank you for your insight random person in the internet who has never met the people I play with and has no idea whatsoever of our gaming group's members.
Listen to me. As a member of the group that I'm talking about. The group will not change the way it has played for over a decade. The units are gone, as far my gaming goes. That annoys me and I have every right to be annoyed. In addition neither my group nor me have done this either - GW have. Stop trying to align blame on me when it is clearly on GW.
Index rules were tournament legal. These legends aren't. Its a massive change for many units in many groups.
That is why you, as a logical person, fix the issue. Or, just crush it with the vastly abundant standard cheese out there. Neither of those are game breaking issues and you can still play with them in a competitive way. As well once the new unit drops, it would be over press the old one anyways.
The vast majority of these units will get no such rules fubars and are more a matter of use in regard to flavor or functionality that won't ever break the game.
I'd not support cutting off my nose to spite my face which is all this unbalanced fear mongering does over index options.
Edit: The blame on this is clearly on GW. However, the change from index to legends is a simple one of name only. It's the same units, if they weren't game destroying from index I doubt they will be in the legends. Only the name has changed. So some of the blame is on people who refuse to see beyond GWs newspeak or read even remotely inside the easy to spot motivations of a not too bright corporate PR team that is hoping for such groups to demonize legends and do their job for them.
Listen to me. As a member of the group that I'm talking about. The group will not change the way it has played for over a decade. The units are gone, as far my gaming goes. That annoys me and I have every right to be annoyed. In addition neither my group nor me have done this either - GW have.
Of course your group has done it. GW doesn't come to your club to physically beat you if you use the Legends rules. In fact, they probably expect many groups to decide to use them or they wouldn't be bothering in the first place.
Index rules were tournament legal. These legends aren't. Its a massive change for many units in many groups.
It's just a suggestion. And nothing in the actual rules has changed.
What are you talking about with unbalanced fear mongering?
There is no worse this could get. The worst has happened.
Did you read my first post? This isn't about winning or competitive builds, it's about using the cool models I have spent literal days of my life on and it's about allowing me more options for more customised units. Which was what 40k was all about, once upon a time.
I'd be over the moon to get a new Mek with KFF, MA Warboss or Bike boss model but until GW decide to do that (and let's be honest, they've got to release about a million Marines and Chaos units first because GW gonna GW) I'm SOL.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The rule of 3 is a matched play suggestion, is it not?
There is no worse this could get. The worst has happened.
Did you read my first post? This isn't about winning or competitive builds, it's about using the cool models I have spent literal days of my life on and it's about allowing me more options for more customised units. Which was what 40k was all about, once upon a time.
I'd be over the moon to get a new Mek with KFF, MA Warboss or Bike boss model but until GW decide to do that (and let's be honest, they've got to release about a million Marines and Chaos units first because GW gonna GW) I'm SOL.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The rule of 3 is a matched play suggestion, is it not?
Your group and those like it, are what GW hope we all are. What makes more sense to you, that GW wants to be the bad guy and just squat those units or that they want to drop words like " Suggesting " not telling..Suggesting they not be allowed in tournaments. See, sounds pretty nice. Now, they know making that suggestion is as good as the kiss of death for groups like yours. They don't want you using those models, they want to sell new kits. This is their way of looking good, on the surface while letting groups squat themselves of loved models. Just look at what you're already acting like over it.
So GW says " Behold our boon " and really its them putting the seeds out there that these units are somehow now magically worse, than they were in the index when the index options already weren't ever getting updated. Saying they are not tournament legal is just a way to make you squat them yourselves while they smell like roses. If they were unbalanced gak, they were from the index, and didn't just become them because they became legend, that is silly on its face and untrue.
The rule of 3 had been in the game pretty much for decades prior, and the multi detachments of 7th made it less a thing but that system was so whack it didn't even matter. Even now Ro3 only stops some easy to spot abuses, legends is not an abuse, it's old models they want gone because they don't sell them anymore, that's it. You act like before legends those units were angels and now they've become toxic to the touch, they haven't.
You mean like the same forever that was in them realizing they killed the last edition with bloat and wouldn't do it again ? They don't have a very convincing track record in regard to their promises.
We won't squat any armies, but we will soft squat lots of models, and then seemingly want to soft squat armies. Their word is about as good as a politicians.
I am really not assigning any nefarious motives for GW doing this. I mean of course they might have one, but seems pretty unlikely to me. They just want to keep their codices neat and only contain stuff that people currently can buy from them. Pretty understandable, even though it has unfortunate side effects for us veterans. But at least they give us these Legend rules so we can use our old models. That's good enough for me.
I really think that the real problem is the silly 'tournament stuff only' mentality that has spread to the casual scenes in many places. That stuff is just so unnecessary. C'mon people, relax a little and remember it's a game of toy soldiers!
I really think that the real problem is the silly 'tournament stuff only' mentality that has spread to the casual scenes in many places. That stuff is just so unnecessary. C'mon people, relax a little and remember it's a game of toy soldiers!
This is something I agree with it's why I have no part of tournaments. I'm a pretty competitive person but since 40k is a hobby I don't want my competitive side to seep in and eventually suck the fun out. So I keep everything pretty casual.
This legends thing where everyone is freaking out that tournaments won't support it is pretty weird. Most people weren't using most of those units because they weren't/aren't competitive even at the start but now that there's an official "squat pool" there's an outrage. Indexes were temporary we all knew that but after the discovery that some index units didn't migrate we didn't know where they were gonna go, well now we do, case solved.
People that use index options are going to continue using index options. At least now I know dual autocannons for dreads are going to continue to be supported by the legends system.
Truth, Though I doubt their intentions aren't a bit dire because of the choice of words on it. As really they could have just placed the index rules online and kept their use the same as before if they didn't want to change the mentality on them.
Though it is oddly a sign of how things changed. I know many were surprised for the better when the old options were in the indexes, it seemed like maybe a return to a golden age of options. Now it feels more like an odd hiccup in the system.
There is no worse this could get. The worst has happened.
Did you read my first post? This isn't about winning or competitive builds, it's about using the cool models I have spent literal days of my life on and it's about allowing me more options for more customised units. Which was what 40k was all about, once upon a time.
I'd be over the moon to get a new Mek with KFF, MA Warboss or Bike boss model but until GW decide to do that (and let's be honest, they've got to release about a million Marines and Chaos units first because GW gonna GW) I'm SOL.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The rule of 3 is a matched play suggestion, is it not?
Your group and those like it, are what GW hope we all are. What makes more sense to you, that GW wants to be the bad guy and just squat those units or that they want to drop words like " Suggesting " not telling..Suggesting they not be allowed in tournaments. See, sounds pretty nice. Now, they know making that suggestion is as good as the kiss of death for groups like yours. They don't want you using those models, they want to sell new kits. This is their way of looking good, on the surface while letting groups squat themselves of loved models. Just look at what you're already acting like over it.
So GW says " Behold our boon " and really its them putting the seeds out there that these units are somehow now magically worse, than they were in the index when the index options already weren't ever getting updated. Saying they are not tournament legal is just a way to make you squat them yourselves while they smell like roses. If they were unbalanced gak, they were from the index, and didn't just become them because they became legend, that is silly on its face and untrue.
The rule of 3 had been in the game pretty much for decades prior, and the multi detachments of 7th made it less a thing but that system was so whack it didn't even matter. Even now Ro3 only stops some easy to spot abuses, legends is not an abuse, it's old models they want gone because they don't sell them anymore, that's it. You act like before legends those units were angels and now they've become toxic to the touch, they haven't.
You're not telling me anything I don't already know with regards to GW.
Don't assume how I'm treating these models. I'm simply stating facts that for my gaming group (and therefore my games) the models are dead. So I can't use them. I don't think the models are any better or worse than they were before. They are, however, now unusable.
Do you use 3 detachments for games only? Do you play on 4x6 tables? Both suggestions.
Crimson wrote: It is not different system. They were fine with the index stuff previously, but now that the exact same stuff gets labelled Legends, they aren't any more? That's just stupid.
And groups are made of people, and you, as a member of that group are contributing to the collective opinion of that group. If you want to use the Legends stuff, then advocate for it instead of being a defeatist. There is a good chance that there are others who agree.
There's a crucial change now though - saying they will never balance them going forward. That alone completely changes how people perceive these units.
They were already not balancing the index options, it's not change at all but for the fact they said they won't, we already saw them not do so.
Yes. And that's why we will stop seeing them as standard in games, because they said that.
A partial win for the GK then, stormshield libby will work just as well as before, and GK won't get hurt by it, because they have doctrins.
Now just have to think about good arguments for people allowing to use index stuff. Maybe just cheat, it is not like people know what GK armies have. Had a game last night, when my opponent was removing his models half the game, when they got hit by psycannons. Then I shot with them at his dreadnought with 2W left and he tried to remove it too. He didn't think that psycanons could be d1, and I didn't know the infiltrator primaris have two wounds too, in their light armour.
I disagree with the GW said they bad evil now so they are mentality but to each their own, I'll still be legend friendly and take GWs suggestion as just that.
Oh and for what i was asked, I play lots of things that fly in the face of GW. We regularly play team games with multiple detachments, sometimes I only take 1 detachment, the shame. I let new players put units in my army that aren't even in my codex because they may have but one or two units and want to be part of a larger game right off, the imbalance of it all. I'll play on any size board and don't always enforce the Ro3.
I'd even let peoples legend space marines have angels of death and combat doctrines ! I'm a wild man ya'll.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Unless I’m mistaken, fortification points values were index only. I wonder if those are going that way too. They weren’t exactly a staple of army lists but I can’t think of many people excited for codex concrete either
Any forts still in production I'd expect to continue to get support. Anything no longer made is likely to go to Legends.
I think they're in Cities of Death the Expansion too.
I would guess that "Master on Bike" doesn't exist in the DA book because Sammael does, and he is the Master of the Ravenwing, after all...
And no longer allowed to be "Counts as" in an Angels of Absolution Army. Let me know when you're not allowed to take a generic SM Captain because you could also choose Sicarius.
Let me guess, when you shelved those armies, you were able to start a new army right? Because if you army gets phased out, and you can't buy in to a new one, it becomes a rather different thing.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool my twice, shame on me. I'm going to guess you don't understand the Tomb Kings reference. When Fantasy was killed off and resurrected as Age of Sigmar, The undead army known as the Tomb Kings did not resurrect itself. Nor did the Bretonians. Not uncoincidentally I do not play Age of Sigmar after buying several thousand points of Bretonians and Tomb Kings.
Agreed. It's entity possible that Psychic Awakening will bring Doctrine equivalent abilities to all factions too.
Because giving the gimmick that finally may have brought some balance to Space Marines should be diluted and ruin that balance at the first opportunity.
I would guess that "Master on Bike" doesn't exist in the DA book because Sammael does, and he is the Master of the Ravenwing, after all...
And no longer allowed to be "Counts as" in an Angels of Absolution Army. Let me know when you're not allowed to take a generic SM Captain because you could also choose Sicarius.
Remind me why it's fine to have Sammael count as another characters, but not to just use the regular DARK ANGELS keyword for your alternate pain scheme?
Lord Damocles wrote: Does anybody actually believe GW's claim that they'll support Legends forever?
I think they'll do well to be supported beyond the end of this edition, so maybe a year or two tops.
Only as long as it’s cost-effective to do so. Right now it costs very little - cut-n-paste from the index print files, put into PDFs on website ...and done and forgotten about.
Eighteen months down the road, when fiscal priorities have changed GW’s outlook, or a new edition hits and the PDFs have to be reviewed to update the stats - that’s when it becomes not worth GW’s time and money to maintain and the Legends stuff quietly vanishes.
Just so I can sleep well tonight... Everyone realises that "support" for the legacy models means they're just putting the rules they've cut from the Indexes on a Web page or PDF and leaving them there, right?
What they mean is that they're not going to outright say you can't use the models or the old rules for them, but GW is done with them. I'm maybe a little hopeful they'll maybe tweak one or two things prior to abandoning them, but Im under no impression from the wording of the announcement that this is anything more than a polite retirement.
Like I said before though, there's absolutely nothing stopping anyone choosing to play with any models or rules they already own.
Edit: what I don't get is why they've not just done a series of quick and easy tutorials, either on their YouTube channel or in White Dwarf on how to convert up these units. It's easy content. It would promote selling people multiple kits. They've already encouraged a kitbash for one specific unit, and the YouTube channel has other guides on making one model into another (I saw one on making GSC into Chaos Cultists) and to get legal composition and loadouts for new, currently fully supported in Codex units you have to buy multiples or kitbash already for a lot of entries..
"No model no rules" is absolute BS. There aren't Chaos Sorcerer kits with all the options in the Codex. Mallex is the only CSM model that even comes with a Thunder Hammer, yet any other Lord, Sorc or Chosen can equip them. Actually, where IS my CSM Chosen box? This kind of eightfold-standard makes things officially really confusing. As Dark Apostles can now only take whats on few the existing model (they used to, a long time ago, anyway) be like basically any other character that could pick whatever from the wargear list. But Chosen, who don't even have a kit, can take loads of options that no one individual kit comes with.
Lord Damocles wrote: Does anybody actually believe GW's claim that they'll support Legends forever?
I think they'll do well to be supported beyond the end of this edition, so maybe a year or two tops.
I believe they will support them forever.
BUT
at some point they will end up like AoS Legends, and be demoted to Open play only, like the Terminus Ultra.
Be that because a new edition comes out or because they become too imbalanced to use in Matched play.
The thing that really bothers me about this is why do it?
It's not about balance (index units are not breaking the game).
It's not about only playing with units in the codex (FW,SW/DA/BA and phobos).
It's not about only playing with "official" GW models (libby's with JPs).
I think I can see our Inquisitor Lord's point about unintended rules interactions but that just seems so lazy and ham-fisted. Maybe they regret the flow chart they put out letting you put autarchs on bikes with banshee masks and reaper launchers but that's one damned model.
Maybe this is the first step of them squatting models out there without facing the backlash they got from cancelling warhammer fantasy. I don't know, if the writing wasn't on the wall for the death of mini-marines already this seems like a rather large neon sign. Anyone want to buy some tacs, vets, devs, grey hunters, blood claws or long fangs?
Yes. And that's why we will stop seeing them as standard in games, because they said that.
I think you will stop seeing Space Marine ones because they don't have Combat Doctrines, and thereby cancel their use by the entire army.
I mean, it isn't outside the realm of possibility that, as part of doing this, obvious keyword or special rule oversights get amended, even if some of them go "Rule name: See page XXX of Codex: YYY for details" so those rules aren't being given away for free.
Is it likely? Possibly not. But it is not impossible.
I mean, it isn't outside the realm of possibility that, as part of doing this, obvious keyword or special rule oversights get amended, even if some of them go "Rule name: See page XXX of Codex: YYY for details" so those rules aren't being given away for free.
Is it likely? Possibly not. But it is not impossible.
bananathug wrote: The thing that really bothers me about this is why do it?
It's not about balance (index units are not breaking the game).
It's not about only playing with units in the codex (FW,SW/DA/BA and phobos).
It's not about only playing with "official" GW models (libby's with JPs).
I think I can see our Inquisitor Lord's point about unintended rules interactions but that just seems so lazy and ham-fisted. Maybe they regret the flow chart they put out letting you put autarchs on bikes with banshee masks and reaper launchers but that's one damned model.
Maybe this is the first step of them squatting models out there without facing the backlash they got from cancelling warhammer fantasy. I don't know, if the writing wasn't on the wall for the death of mini-marines already this seems like a rather large neon sign. Anyone want to buy some tacs, vets, devs, grey hunters, blood claws or long fangs?
I don't think my Grey Hunters of Long Fangs will be going away.
I think this is basically the only elegant and internally consistent way to permanently resolve the Imagifier situation and prevent future ones from arising. The Imagifier thing does need fixing, since while it isn't meta-defining, it is arguably game-breaking [and is probably the most powerful thing to do in our faction right now] and considering that our thing was supposed to be a beta test for permanent rules, it really highlights the problem. And there's always the possibility that other such interactions could occur in the future, and rather than worrying about how a potential change will affect every obscure unit that only existed in conversion, they can focus on balancing the active core set as it were for competitive play.
As long as the Imperial Space Marine gets updated so he gets all the fancy new rules I won't complain. Would give me a reason to run three bad ass dudes running around.
I'm concerned more about the wargear options. I have all my Mordian officers modeled with shotguns. It's gonna suck if I have to redo those conversions.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: As long as the Imperial Space Marine gets updated so he gets all the fancy new rules I won't complain. Would give me a reason to run three bad ass dudes running around.
It's been a while since I looked at the profile - as I only recently managed to pick him up, second-hand - but isn't he unique?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: As long as the Imperial Space Marine gets updated so he gets all the fancy new rules I won't complain. Would give me a reason to run three bad ass dudes running around.
It's been a while since I looked at the profile - as I only recently managed to pick him up, second-hand - but isn't he unique?
I'm pretty sure you can only bring one, yes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
necrontyrOG wrote: I'm concerned more about the wargear options. I have all my Mordian officers modeled with shotguns. It's gonna suck if I have to redo those conversions.
No one should ever demand that you un-convert them, imo.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: As long as the Imperial Space Marine gets updated so he gets all the fancy new rules I won't complain. Would give me a reason to run three bad ass dudes running around.
It's been a while since I looked at the profile - as I only recently managed to pick him up, second-hand - but isn't he unique?
I don't think he's a unique character. If he is though, darn.
Karol wrote: A partial win for the GK then, stormshield libby will work just as well as before, and GK won't get hurt by it, because they have doctrins.
Now just have to think about good arguments for people allowing to use index stuff. Maybe just cheat, it is not like people know what GK armies have. Had a game last night, when my opponent was removing his models half the game, when they got hit by psycannons. Then I shot with them at his dreadnought with 2W left and he tried to remove it too. He didn't think that psycanons could be d1, and I didn't know the infiltrator primaris have two wounds too, in their light armour.
Well, as G.I.Joe taught us back in the 80s, knowing is half the battle.
Now you know. So don't cheat your opponent again in the future.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bananathug wrote: Anyone want to buy some tacs, vets, devs, grey hunters, blood claws or long fangs?
I wouldn't mind terribly an archive of Legends if they were, by any reasonable definition, 'legendary'.
Here's rules for Nazdreg, and Macharius, and Schaeffer, and Dante, etc. We don't make the model anymore, but people own them, so here's rules to play them. Great!
What's 'legendary' about a Mek with a Kustom Force Field that's not wearing Mega Armor? What's legendary about a Chaplain on a Bike? There needs to be a way to take normal, 'fluffy', combinations that fit the game setting, especially when the model previously existed.
Heck, I'm more liberal about "Legends" than some people. I'm all for having a 'Tournament List' of stuff that is tourney legal and has matched play points, and putting all the wild, wacky (and not wacky but no longer produced) stuff in power level only! I'm not particularly concerned about matched play points--I just think that it's beyond silly that 'specific character models we haven't produced in years' and 'model A with option B' can both be shunted into the same 'Legends' archive.
Da Butcha wrote: I wouldn't mind terribly an archive of Legends if they were, by any reasonable definition, 'legendary'.
Here's rules for Nazdreg, and Macharius, and Schaeffer, and Dante, etc. We don't make the model anymore, but people own them, so here's rules to play them. Great!
Psst... Dante is still in production, though Direct Only.
I do agree with your broader point, though - I'd love to see Legends datasheets for all special characters which have had models produced in the past, but which are currently OOP (even if some then turn up in M2O).
I would guess that "Master on Bike" doesn't exist in the DA book because Sammael does, and he is the Master of the Ravenwing, after all...
And no longer allowed to be "Counts as" in an Angels of Absolution Army. Let me know when you're not allowed to take a generic SM Captain because you could also choose Sicarius.
Remind me why it's fine to have Sammael count as another characters, but not to just use the regular DARK ANGELS keyword for your alternate pain scheme?
Oh, and you also have talon masters.
You mean the section about if your army is painted as a specific chapter you have to use them as that specific chapter? I'm trying to remember where I saw it. GT rules, the new SM codex, or somewhere else I can't remember. It was something about "if your army is painted as a specific chapter..." and the example they used was Storm Lords. So the people who painted up Angels of Absolution will have lost Sammael because you're not allowed to change his keyword to Angels of Absolution anymore, and they don't have a Master on Bike meaning they can't have a thematic second company Master.
So aside from pre-established successor chapters - even DA players should be able to create their own second company master on bike - not to mention any support characters - as a temporary replacement for Sammael if he takes a Sicarius vacation, or pre-Sammael, or just to try something different.
I was just poking fun at the Banshee mask being an auto-include on every Autarch ever, despite no modification to the model whatsoever.
I'd also like to point out that the ork Warboss also didn't lose any options when he moved to the codex, so the same might be happening to the Autarch in a 8.1 codex.
Not true at all, Warboss lost access to Shoota's. Now the cheapest shooting option you can take on a warboss is a Kustom Shoota which is 2pts and functionally useless and serves no purpose other then a 2pt tax.
The ork buggies were old as dirt. Those were the best kits to get targeted.
Except we didn't get new kits. What we got were 6 completely new units and the old units got relegated to Index and are now recommended to never be used again in competitive games. Also, surprising nobody, none of those new models are worth a damn, while the HQ units we just lost as well as the index gear we lost access to is basically required for competitive ork lists. It really bugs me that GW releases stuff for other factions that is both good, useful and looks good and then gives orkz models which some are good looking, others are crap and ALL suck in competitive games. Hell, the only unit released recently that was competitive and not even debatable is the Mek Gun.
If they were dead set on doing buggies, most people would have been happier with a kit or two with interchangeable war gear options. 6 monopose kits and a worthless mek building was a touch overkill and unwanted
Orks have a bunch of options that are not even old, they are NON EXISTENT. We were told "well you can still convert them and use the index!". now that's gone. Buggies were a failure rules wise and model wise. I've never seen a single one fielded .
Just included this because it literally says the exact same thing as my opinion.
Lord Damocles wrote: Does anybody actually believe GW's claim that they'll support Legends forever?
I think they'll do well to be supported beyond the end of this edition, so maybe a year or two tops.
Not hard to "support" legend units when they said they will not be given any rules updates after they get a points cost and they will not be making a model for them. So support them how? I can only imagine Moral and emotional support because there isn't much else they are offering from what I see.
It's not even that. It's "a couple HQs that are more point efficient and/or safer than the codex options". The wartrike IS the new warboss on a bike despite desires to deliver the relic klaw as cheaply and easily as possible, because mathammer tells you it will efficiently hurt a knight.
Here is the difference deadalus, to really drive the point home. A warboss on warbike with relic klaw has 6 S5 shots, 2 S4 shots, in CC it has 2 attack squig attacks at S4 -1 AP, 4 S12 attacks (Easily bugged to 6) with -3 AP and 3 flat damage and free reroll to wounds. It is T6 with 7 wounds and probably most importantly, its Waaagh ability targets bikes and infantry. A Wartrike on the other hand, has a heavy flamer which has a Stronger setting which is never used because D6 guaranteed hits is better then 2 possible hits, it has a shooting attack with its ridiculous klaw which is functionally useless and 6 S5 boomstick shots which are as powerful as the Warbikes dakkaguns, but only really better when at 6' range or less, and good luck getting there. All of its weapons are ranged 8 and the boomstick is 12, but only useful at 6. So it has less useful dakka at range and when you finally close the distance its only good shooting is the heavy flamer....which will almost undoubtedly increase charge range, which brings me to CC. The Wartrike has 5 S7 AP-2 D3 attacks which allow rerolls on wounds. This one as well can be buffed with the same spell.
It is T6 with 8 wounds, its Waaagh ability only effects Clan biker/vehicles within 6, so all infantry are SOL and unfortunately no other klans can benefit.
The Warboss on Warbike is 99pts the wartrike is 120. So its 20% more expensive then the warbike and is arguably worse in almost every way possible. Maybe if they buffed the wartrike AND gave it a price reduction we could see this as a true replacement. Until then this is just a nerf.
bananathug wrote: The thing that really bothers me about this is why do it?
It's not about balance (index units are not breaking the game).
It's not about only playing with units in the codex (FW,SW/DA/BA and phobos).
It's not about only playing with "official" GW models (libby's with JPs).
I think I can see our Inquisitor Lord's point about unintended rules interactions but that just seems so lazy and ham-fisted. Maybe they regret the flow chart they put out letting you put autarchs on bikes with banshee masks and reaper launchers but that's one damned model.
Maybe this is the first step of them squatting models out there without facing the backlash they got from cancelling warhammer fantasy. I don't know, if the writing wasn't on the wall for the death of mini-marines already this seems like a rather large neon sign. Anyone want to buy some tacs, vets, devs, grey hunters, blood claws or long fangs?
Chapterhouse syndrome. If you think the 40k Community gets butt hurt about minor things then you should know that this is because they appreciate GW and try to mimic their behavior. GW sues EVERYONE who even makes a reference to something that could be perceived as 40k related. They tried to sue someone for saying "Space Marine" in a book....even though GW didn't invent the term and that it has been used in dozens if not hundreds of books and sub cultural reference in other games (Starcraft). Anyway, GW sued Chapterhouse for Copy right infringement, Chapterhouse won something like 70% of the lawsuit and GW threw an absolute hissy fit over it and began removing rules and mentions of anything that GW did not have a model for. In essence, if GDubz can't over price you for it, they won't make it or support it in their game. Keep in mind, this is essentially what Forgeworld does, the difference being they have a licensing agreement to make decent looking models for absurd prices and which tend to not get proper support from the rules teams.
SemperMortis wrote: In essence, if GDubz can't over price you for it, they won't make it or support it in their game. Keep in mind, this is essentially what Forgeworld does, the difference being they have a licensing agreement to make decent looking models for absurd prices and which tend to not get proper support from the rules teams.
Eh, the first, and most significant, difference between FW and CH is that Forge World are part of Games Workshop - or the larger GW Group, at worst.
Sure, they've historically had a decent amount of independence regarding what they produce, but it is all still technically in-house.
Chapterhouse were a third party company mostly making after-market parts, and a few models from scratch which GW didn't produce (from memory). They definitely sailed a bit close to the wind on some of their labelling, but that was something a competent legal team would've been able to deal with without a court case that sees multiple American law firms taking CH's side pro bono...
Is making models or parts of model that fit w40k GW models illegal? I know there is a polish firm that makes a lot of stuff people want, shoulder pads, special and melee weapons, entire orc models and terrain etc.
Karol wrote: Is making models or parts of model that fit w40k GW models illegal? I know there is a polish firm that makes a lot of stuff people want, shoulder pads, special and melee weapons, entire orc models and terrain etc.
according to the Chapterhouse legal decision. NO. So long as GW doesn't make it you can make it and sell it. The one grey zone was that you can't just make a minor change to a model and call it something different, that right is reserved for GW (Tankbusta boyz, Burna boyz, Boyz, Stormboyz )
Lord Damocles wrote: Does anybody actually believe GW's claim that they'll support Legends forever?
I think they'll do well to be supported beyond the end of this edition, so maybe a year or two tops.
I believe they will support them forever.
BUT
at some point they will end up like AoS Legends, and be demoted to Open play only, like the Terminus Ultra.
Be that because a new edition comes out or because they become too imbalanced to use in Matched play.
Slow down there, the Terminus Ultra is still able to be used in matched play. The Chapter approved rules are Open play only, but that was a for a generic Terminus for any chapter. The Ultramarine specific Terminus Ultra is still able to be used in Matched Play, and even got a points update.
Karol wrote: Is making models or parts of model that fit w40k GW models illegal? I know there is a polish firm that makes a lot of stuff people want, shoulder pads, special and melee weapons, entire orc models and terrain etc.
according to the Chapterhouse legal decision. NO. So long as GW doesn't make it you can make it and sell it. The one grey zone was that you can't just make a minor change to a model and call it something different, that right is reserved for GW (Tankbusta boyz, Burna boyz, Boyz, Stormboyz )
So that is why the kromlech stuff has so strange names. Kind of a strange to be honest, but my knowladge of law is down there near 0%. Thank you for explaining.
necrontyrOG wrote: I'm concerned more about the wargear options. I have all my Mordian officers modeled with shotguns. It's gonna suck if I have to redo those conversions.
No one should ever demand that you un-convert them, imo.
What's wrong with a simple 'counts-as'?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is the difference deadalus, to really drive the point home. A warboss on warbike with relic klaw has 6 S5 shots, 2 S4 shots, in CC it has 2 attack squig attacks at S4 -1 AP, 4 S12 attacks (Easily bugged to 6) with -3 AP and 3 flat damage and free reroll to wounds. It is T6 with 7 wounds and probably most importantly, its Waaagh ability targets bikes and infantry. A Wartrike on the other hand, has a heavy flamer which has a Stronger setting which is never used because D6 guaranteed hits is better then 2 possible hits, it has a shooting attack with its ridiculous klaw which is functionally useless and 6 S5 boomstick shots which are as powerful as the Warbikes dakkaguns, but only really better when at 6' range or less, and good luck getting there. All of its weapons are ranged 8 and the boomstick is 12, but only useful at 6. So it has less useful dakka at range and when you finally close the distance its only good shooting is the heavy flamer....which will almost undoubtedly increase charge range, which brings me to CC. The Wartrike has 5 S7 AP-2 D3 attacks which allow rerolls on wounds. This one as well can be buffed with the same spell.
It is T6 with 8 wounds, its Waaagh ability only effects Clan biker/vehicles within 6, so all infantry are SOL and unfortunately no other klans can benefit.
The Warboss on Warbike is 99pts the wartrike is 120. So its 20% more expensive then the warbike and is arguably worse in almost every way possible. Maybe if they buffed the wartrike AND gave it a price reduction we could see this as a true replacement. Until then this is just a nerf.
Yes, see this is part of my point. It seems a large majority of people don't give a gak about losing models unless they're also panicking about old marines in general right now. It's those handful that believe the math-hammer is the only thing that matters and cut out any other unit of value.
Legends isn't a hit to collectors. It's a hit to WAAC.
necrontyrOG wrote: I'm concerned more about the wargear options. I have all my Mordian officers modeled with shotguns. It's gonna suck if I have to redo those conversions.
No one should ever demand that you un-convert them, imo.
What's wrong with a simple 'counts-as'?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is the difference deadalus, to really drive the point home. A warboss on warbike with relic klaw has 6 S5 shots, 2 S4 shots, in CC it has 2 attack squig attacks at S4 -1 AP, 4 S12 attacks (Easily bugged to 6) with -3 AP and 3 flat damage and free reroll to wounds. It is T6 with 7 wounds and probably most importantly, its Waaagh ability targets bikes and infantry. A Wartrike on the other hand, has a heavy flamer which has a Stronger setting which is never used because D6 guaranteed hits is better then 2 possible hits, it has a shooting attack with its ridiculous klaw which is functionally useless and 6 S5 boomstick shots which are as powerful as the Warbikes dakkaguns, but only really better when at 6' range or less, and good luck getting there. All of its weapons are ranged 8 and the boomstick is 12, but only useful at 6. So it has less useful dakka at range and when you finally close the distance its only good shooting is the heavy flamer....which will almost undoubtedly increase charge range, which brings me to CC. The Wartrike has 5 S7 AP-2 D3 attacks which allow rerolls on wounds. This one as well can be buffed with the same spell.
It is T6 with 8 wounds, its Waaagh ability only effects Clan biker/vehicles within 6, so all infantry are SOL and unfortunately no other klans can benefit.
The Warboss on Warbike is 99pts the wartrike is 120. So its 20% more expensive then the warbike and is arguably worse in almost every way possible. Maybe if they buffed the wartrike AND gave it a price reduction we could see this as a true replacement. Until then this is just a nerf.
Yes, see this is part of my point. It seems a large majority of people don't give a gak about losing models unless they're also panicking about old marines in general right now. It's those handful that believe the math-hammer is the only thing that matters and cut out any other unit of value.
Legends isn't a hit to collectors. It's a hit to WAAC.
No, its a hit to people who play the game as a.....game, you know, competitively. I don't know of anyone who actively plays to lose. But thanks for calling me WAAC
necrontyrOG wrote: I'm concerned more about the wargear options. I have all my Mordian officers modeled with shotguns. It's gonna suck if I have to redo those conversions.
No one should ever demand that you un-convert them, imo.
What's wrong with a simple 'counts-as'?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is the difference deadalus, to really drive the point home. A warboss on warbike with relic klaw has 6 S5 shots, 2 S4 shots, in CC it has 2 attack squig attacks at S4 -1 AP, 4 S12 attacks (Easily bugged to 6) with -3 AP and 3 flat damage and free reroll to wounds. It is T6 with 7 wounds and probably most importantly, its Waaagh ability targets bikes and infantry. A Wartrike on the other hand, has a heavy flamer which has a Stronger setting which is never used because D6 guaranteed hits is better then 2 possible hits, it has a shooting attack with its ridiculous klaw which is functionally useless and 6 S5 boomstick shots which are as powerful as the Warbikes dakkaguns, but only really better when at 6' range or less, and good luck getting there. All of its weapons are ranged 8 and the boomstick is 12, but only useful at 6. So it has less useful dakka at range and when you finally close the distance its only good shooting is the heavy flamer....which will almost undoubtedly increase charge range, which brings me to CC. The Wartrike has 5 S7 AP-2 D3 attacks which allow rerolls on wounds. This one as well can be buffed with the same spell.
It is T6 with 8 wounds, its Waaagh ability only effects Clan biker/vehicles within 6, so all infantry are SOL and unfortunately no other klans can benefit.
The Warboss on Warbike is 99pts the wartrike is 120. So its 20% more expensive then the warbike and is arguably worse in almost every way possible. Maybe if they buffed the wartrike AND gave it a price reduction we could see this as a true replacement. Until then this is just a nerf.
Yes, see this is part of my point. It seems a large majority of people don't give a gak about losing models unless they're also panicking about old marines in general right now. It's those handful that believe the math-hammer is the only thing that matters and cut out any other unit of value.
Legends isn't a hit to collectors. It's a hit to WAAC.
No, its a hit to people who play the game as a.....game, you know, competitively. I don't know of anyone who actively plays to lose. But thanks for calling me WAAC
I'm not calling you strictly WAAC, but the action falls under that umbrella. I'm saying the index change is a nerf to people who would rather take a set of rules intended to break the very clear pattern GW has laid out to gain an advantage. An advantage that wasn't intended. The reactions to these changes are those of people receiving a nerf rather than some moral quandary of GW killing off models.
The reactions would be the same if index models stayed legal and they simply changed the rule on the datasheet - would they not? I take that back. People wouldn't complain as much, because it would be harder to make GW a villain.
And as things are so often overlooked in the quest for math-hammer and net listing people oft forget that the wartrike lets bonebreakas (and dreads / kans) run and charge, but no one takes those, because 'knights just kill everything'.
A wartrike and a bonebreaka (skip all the guns) can make combat turn 1 with extreme ease. For the record - 3 snakebite bonebreakas & monster hunter charging a knight is 21+ wounds.
Legends isn't really a hit to WAAC, Legends is really a hit to players who play tournament only type games. As their casual reference of " They'll recommend they not be in tournaments " is a kiss of death for some players.
Some, like me, couldn't care any less but for some what GW deems legal and not is the absolute end all be all of this game as it stands.
There might be a couple index options that are point for point better, but most are just simply niche flavor models or beloved old models. I don't think someone bringing rough riders is WAAC, and if they are thought of like that, god help us all.
No, its a hit to people who play the game as a.....game, you know, competitively. I don't know of anyone who actively plays to lose. But thanks for calling me WAAC
I'm not calling you strictly WAAC, but the action falls under that umbrella. I'm saying the index change is a nerf to people who would rather take a set of rules intended to break the very clear pattern GW has laid out to gain an advantage. An advantage that wasn't intended. The reactions to these changes are those of people receiving a nerf rather than some moral quandary of GW killing off models.
The reactions would be the same if index models stayed legal and they simply changed the rule on the datasheet - would they not? I take that back. People wouldn't complain as much, because it would be harder to make GW a villain.
And as things are so often overlooked in the quest for math-hammer and net listing people oft forget that the wartrike lets bonebreakas (and dreads / kans) run and charge, but no one takes those, because 'knights just kill everything'.
A wartrike and a bonebreaka (skip all the guns) can make combat turn 1 with extreme ease. For the record - 3 snakebite bonebreakas & monster hunter charging a knight is 21+ wounds.
Ayy lmao, the least ammount of index options Fall under WAAC broken category and even that is debatable daedalus.
Are Chaos lords on mounts also WAAC for you then?
Are Chaos lords on bike WAAC then?
Etc.
It's only hitting people that might could've used 3rd party to kitbash, it's nothing more then spite of GW Post chapterhouse.
Edit: And you defending it even though it obviously is that and calling others in essence WAAC, is hillarious.
No company continues supporting things they dont produce without a silly amount of money coming just for that ( re: windows xp). No company supports the sale of 3rd party manufacturers for there product (though I bet someone is going to find an edge case to that).
If you think this is a terrible move and that GW should suffer, or are bad guys for doing what other companies world wide do with a range of products then wow.
It's not about WAAC, it is about not waating money on items that do not earn money just to keep a few people from complaining. Which they'll do anyway.
Just because other companies do it doesn't mean it isn't a D bag move. Most other companies also don't go out of the way to say how they are our friends and care as much as GW does.
I mean you can support the corporate entity all you want, I'm sure they are very proud of everyone they'll never know who protects them but it would really take a minimal amount of effort, probably the same effort they put into proof reading and editing, to keep up to date with rules for models they sold and people bought and used.
People will complain about anything, but you don't have to dig deep sometimes to find a just cause. Saying we should expect it still doesn't make it feel any better.
Programing to keep up old games, windows systems, etc does cost a lot more time and money. However them touching on the rules for these old models once they are set up would be the smallest issue like once a year.
Paying GW prices, just talking about rough riders here, I think they were like 12$ last I remember buying from them when you could. I have like 3 full squads, I don't think its too much to ask they give them a once over once a year if you tack on all the other old players who have spent similar hundreds and hundreds on just a couple units from way back.
No, its a hit to people who play the game as a.....game, you know, competitively. I don't know of anyone who actively plays to lose. But thanks for calling me WAAC
I'm not calling you strictly WAAC, but the action falls under that umbrella. I'm saying the index change is a nerf to people who would rather take a set of rules intended to break the very clear pattern GW has laid out to gain an advantage. An advantage that wasn't intended. The reactions to these changes are those of people receiving a nerf rather than some moral quandary of GW killing off models.
The reactions would be the same if index models stayed legal and they simply changed the rule on the datasheet - would they not? I take that back. People wouldn't complain as much, because it would be harder to make GW a villain.
And as things are so often overlooked in the quest for math-hammer and net listing people oft forget that the wartrike lets bonebreakas (and dreads / kans) run and charge, but no one takes those, because 'knights just kill everything'.
A wartrike and a bonebreaka (skip all the guns) can make combat turn 1 with extreme ease. For the record - 3 snakebite bonebreakas & monster hunter charging a knight is 21+ wounds.
Maybe you not should be calling people WAAC if you have no clue what you are talking about. Snakebite bonebreakas? Seriously?
Ork players are mainly worried about the foot KFF Mek, an actual GW model that has been produced until some point well into 7th, and the biker warboss, a model that has been a staple since 4th edition and is actually still sold by FW.
The reason why the KFF mek is critical is because it's the one thing keeping green tides and walker lists viable. When he is gone the MA big mek can't fill its spot, not just because he is massively overcosted, but more importantly, at 4" he is too slow to keep up with an ork army. Both the wazbomm and the morkanaut lack character protection and stick out like a sore thumb in an infantry army, which means the KFF just gets removed by the guns people bring anyways to remove knights.
The reason why the warboss is critical is because the only thing in the codex that can actually reach a character/vehicle/elite unit and kill it in combat is a warboss with the relic claw. It's our daemon prince/smash captain/autarch. A regular warboss struggles to fill this role because he cannot zig-zag from cover to cover until he gets there, not drive around a screening unit, and since removing 60+ boyz is not an issue for any modern army, he tends to get exposed and killed before he has crossed even half the board. Zardsark from forgeword is a strictly worse replacement (less killy, costs more), but for some reason he cannot provide bikers with the ability to advance and charge, despite him leading a mob of warbikers in the fluff. The wartrike is not even remotely comparable. It can't take any of the relics, isn't good at wounding vehicles or monsters at all, and only does d3 damage. In addition, the huge base often makes it impossible to fit through holes in terrain or screens, also eliminating the assassin aspect of the warboss. It's kind of like replacing a smash captain with land speeder.
On top of all that, we are losing two of our HQs, which leaves us with few options to choose from. Expect to see 3 weird boyz and 3 SAGs in most ork armies from now on.
I honestly don't know why I keep having to stick up for Orks when I don't even play the army. I wish GW would stop the silly. I never understood why they messed with looted wagons, and if Orks lose these HQ characters, that sucks too.
Oh and just my opinion on taste, but the warboss on the trike looks dumb as heck. The one on a bike looks much cooler, other feels like he's the fat man on training wheels.
Now you know. So don't cheat your opponent again in the future.
.
Well I didn't exactly cheat. It is more like he cheated himself, as he was removing his own models, and it was me that noticed that he was trying to kill his dreadnought with 4W from two psycannon shots going through. Didn't change the game much anyway, still lost. It did suprise me though that the scout primaris have 2W, makes no sense at all with them having less armour. But new codex comes out have to learn it somehow. Today I learned that a space marine player can drop 3 drop pods with 3 units of devastators, and 3 units of sternguard inside, and whip your entire army out turn one.
ccs 779694 10556503 wrote:
Today I learned that a space marine player can drop 3 drop pods with 3 units of devastators, and 3 units of sternguard inside, and whip your entire army out turn one.
Just remember, according to the experts, there's nothing really worthwhile putting in drop pods.
The losing of units that never had a model or very old models is just chapter house, it's them catering to a younger audience.
It's why Marines now look like they are ripped from Cod and fortnite.
They don't want kids to be mucking about with knifes clippers and glue to make a unit. Just glue and clippers really. Why do you think when GW does converting they never use a knife and if they do it tells them to get an adult.
The game isn't being sold to veteran hobbyists who will make a Ork boss on a bike out of spare parts and duct tape, but nee hobbyists who buy a kit and have all the options right there.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I honestly don't know why I keep having to stick up for Orks when I don't even play the army. I wish GW would stop the silly. I never understood why they messed with looted wagons, and if Orks lose these HQ characters, that sucks too.
Oh and just my opinion on taste, but the warboss on the trike looks dumb as heck. The one on a bike looks much cooler, other feels like he's the fat man on training wheels.
Heh, models are always a matter of taste. I actually run them both side by side since they are completely different models that do different things.
Sadly, two wartrikes don't make sense since you only need its aura for one or two units and the damage output is laughable for such an expensive model. So even a speed freaks army would be fielding weird boyz and SAGs since there aren't any other useful HQs besides named characters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote: Today I learned that a space marine player can drop 3 drop pods with 3 units of devastators, and 3 units of sternguard inside, and whip your entire army out turn one.
To be fair, any non-GK would not be wiped out and instead just take the casualties and then wipe out all that stuff, putting themselves roughly a thousand points in the lead.
hotsauceman1 wrote: The losing of units that never had a model or very old models is just chapter house, it's them catering to a younger audience.
It's why Marines now look like they are ripped from Cod and fortnite.
They don't want kids to be mucking about with knifes clippers and glue to make a unit. Just glue and clippers really. Why do you think when GW does converting they never use a knife and if they do it tells them to get an adult.
The game isn't being sold to veteran hobbyists who will make a Ork boss on a bike out of spare parts and duct tape, but nee hobbyists who buy a kit and have all the options right there.
Both the warboss on bike and the KFF big mek have an official model made by GW.
Zhardsnark has rules.
And if they don't want kids struggling with plastic, they don't want them touching resin.
I don't see that mek anywhere on GWs website.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Zhardsnark has rules.
And if they don't want kids struggling with plastic, they don't want them touching resin.
I don't see that mek anywhere on GWs website.
In addition, nob bikers are also in the codex. Models are sold by FW or can be built from various boxes.
The big mek was still sold during 7th (he even got a transition to fine cast), and is anything but "really old". Large parts of the current ork line are older than that model.
If anything, Kirby-GW intentionally dropped this model from their store to boost sales of the MA big mek.
So neither model is affected by the chapterhouse lawsuit.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Zhardsnark has rules.
And if they don't want kids struggling with plastic, they don't want them touching resin.
I don't see that mek anywhere on GWs website.
In addition, nob bikers are also in the codex. Models are sold by FW or can be built from various boxes.
The big mek was still sold during 7th (he even got a transition to fine cast), and is anything but "really old". Large parts of the current ork line are older than that model.
If anything, Kirby-GW intentionally dropped this model from their store to boost sales of the MA big mek.
So neither model is affected by the chapterhouse lawsuit.
FW models don't count as far as GW main studio is concerned so No you don't have a current GW model for warboss on bike.
Also GW's website only shows bigmek in mega armour with the forcefield hence why GW are saying it's a no model so legends rules only.
What stops GW from giving a mega armoured mekk be given both sets of rules, to use with the same plastic model they sell. GK characters can be run as librarians, captins, chaplains, grandmasters in termintor armour, or even special characters, and no body seems to care that the only legal plastic character is voldus and draigo is metal or resin. All GW would have to need is change the name of the units, so they aren't identical or make them a gear option for the new models. With orcs most people wouldn't know what they have anyway.
ccs 779694 10558289 wrote:
Just remember, according to the experts, there's nothing really worthwhile putting in drop pods.
Oh that could be true. Ton of stuff that doesn't get used, seems to be very effective against my army. Was a big eye opener though. I never had a game end on turn 1, before I even started. Was kind of a strange, because I then had to wait outside of the store for 1 hour for my mom to pick me up.
Karol wrote: What stops GW from giving a mega armoured mekk be given both sets of rules, to use with the same plastic model they sell.
The Chapter House lawsuits.
But that is crazy, this means to have lets say a space marine character with one new weapons you have to have a whole new model. Can't just have a captin or chapter master with a list of stuff they can take. What are they losing if someone else makes a model for their game anyway, those that buy recasts don't buy GW models in the first place, unless it is to make casts of their own. If GW products are better looking and priced, then those of other companies, people that buy GW models won't be buying 3ed company stuff. Is it some obscure law thing, like the stuff with comics, where if they don't restart them every X years, they go in to free domain, and everyone can make them, no questions asked?
No, its a hit to people who play the game as a.....game, you know, competitively. I don't know of anyone who actively plays to lose. But thanks for calling me WAAC
I'm not calling you strictly WAAC, but the action falls under that umbrella. I'm saying the index change is a nerf to people who would rather take a set of rules intended to break the very clear pattern GW has laid out to gain an advantage. An advantage that wasn't intended. The reactions to these changes are those of people receiving a nerf rather than some moral quandary of GW killing off models.
The reactions would be the same if index models stayed legal and they simply changed the rule on the datasheet - would they not? I take that back. People wouldn't complain as much, because it would be harder to make GW a villain.
And as things are so often overlooked in the quest for math-hammer and net listing people oft forget that the wartrike lets bonebreakas (and dreads / kans) run and charge, but no one takes those, because 'knights just kill everything'.
A wartrike and a bonebreaka (skip all the guns) can make combat turn 1 with extreme ease. For the record - 3 snakebite bonebreakas & monster hunter charging a knight is 21+ wounds.
Right, because my Kustom made Warboss on Warbike that I made during 6th edition that I spent 12 hours on is broken and makes me WAAC for wanting to use him. And if they nerfed the units instead of disallowing them they would still be yelled at and made to look bad. Case and point, my 12 lovingly built and painted Killa Kanz that I can't use in a game because my opponents get bored of winning with ease.
Also, in regards to "unintended" no, it was not an unintended consequence, the unit has been included since at least 4th edition, GW knows its ability and how it functions in an Ork Army, but what they don't do is make a model for it, so therefore because of the chapterhouse nonsense, they Squatted it. Also, Bonebreakers advance D6 as far as I know, So that averages about 9' charge, 8 if you take Evil Sunz. So it has a good chance to get into CC, but not a great one. And if you don't get 1st turn OR if you are unlucky enough to not get your charge off then both your wartrike and bonebreaker are dead.
Finally, For the record, 3 Snakebite Bonebreakers will never do 21+ wounds to a Knight because simply put, 3 Bonebreakers will never ever get into CC with a Knight if your opponent is even remotely competent. 16 wounds is a lot, T8 is good. A 4+ save on a heavy vehicle isn't good. A knight can pulverize a Bonebreaker (depending on weapon loadout) from the back end of the table. So unless you are spending a ton of CP to deep strike those Wagonz, and your opponent doesn't put a screen around his knight, this scenario is almost never going to happen.
No, its a hit to people who play the game as a.....game, you know, competitively. I don't know of anyone who actively plays to lose. But thanks for calling me WAAC
I'm not calling you strictly WAAC, but the action falls under that umbrella. I'm saying the index change is a nerf to people who would rather take a set of rules intended to break the very clear pattern GW has laid out to gain an advantage. An advantage that wasn't intended. The reactions to these changes are those of people receiving a nerf rather than some moral quandary of GW killing off models.
The reactions would be the same if index models stayed legal and they simply changed the rule on the datasheet - would they not? I take that back. People wouldn't complain as much, because it would be harder to make GW a villain.
And as things are so often overlooked in the quest for math-hammer and net listing people oft forget that the wartrike lets bonebreakas (and dreads / kans) run and charge, but no one takes those, because 'knights just kill everything'.
A wartrike and a bonebreaka (skip all the guns) can make combat turn 1 with extreme ease. For the record - 3 snakebite bonebreakas & monster hunter charging a knight is 21+ wounds.
Right, because my Kustom made Warboss on Warbike that I made during 6th edition that I spent 12 hours on is broken and makes me WAAC for wanting to use him. And if they nerfed the units instead of disallowing them they would still be yelled at and made to look bad. Case and point, my 12 lovingly built and painted Killa Kanz that I can't use in a game because my opponents get bored of winning with ease.
Also, in regards to "unintended" no, it was not an unintended consequence, the unit has been included since at least 4th edition, GW knows its ability and how it functions in an Ork Army, but what they don't do is make a model for it, so therefore because of the chapterhouse nonsense, they Squatted it. Also, Bonebreakers advance D6 as far as I know, So that averages about 9' charge, 8 if you take Evil Sunz. So it has a good chance to get into CC, but not a great one. And if you don't get 1st turn OR if you are unlucky enough to not get your charge off then both your wartrike and bonebreaker are dead.
Finally, For the record, 3 Snakebite Bonebreakers will never do 21+ wounds to a Knight because simply put, 3 Bonebreakers will never ever get into CC with a Knight if your opponent is even remotely competent. 16 wounds is a lot, T8 is good. A 4+ save on a heavy vehicle isn't good. A knight can pulverize a Bonebreaker (depending on weapon loadout) from the back end of the table. So unless you are spending a ton of CP to deep strike those Wagonz, and your opponent doesn't put a screen around his knight, this scenario is almost never going to happen.
On top, 3 bonebreakers are 477pts. Bad example I would say.
bananathug wrote: Models that I've just converted/bought/painted this edition that are going away:
Wolfguard on bike
captain on bike
DA libby on bike
Mini-tiggy
SM dex
150+ bucks and hours that are far more valuable that GW is squatting (not counting indexes) that I spent this edition that will no longer be valid for matched/tourney play. Not legacy models but kits I've bought then kit-bashed then painted THIS EDITION THAT WERE VALID WHEN I SPENT THE $$ AND TIME that I will no longer be legally allowed to play with.
I need to find a new hobby. Pretty much guarantees they are coming out with primaris bikers though
captain on a bike is still in codex space marines.
Which, in itself, is a weird one. No model, yet it's made it out of the Index into TWO successive Codices. Find it really weird how inconsistently this supposed "rule" is applied.
I believe GW still sells a white scars conversion kit that technically means they sell a kit that meets their stupid definition post chapter house.
So much soul is being crushed out of the hobby due to that decision and come 9th edition, I believe GW will pretty much double down on 40k being a ccg/combohammer with stock plastic kits, with little to no reason to ever kitbash or convert any unit or option.
1. They have effectively ensured that no tournament will allow index models with their "recommendation".
Probably. Or the tournament organisers could think for themselves.
IME most modern 40k players want to be spoonfed everything. If they don't get an edict from GW on what something exactly is or how it is supposed to be used then madness occurs. You could see this yesterday on various social media platforms with people losing their gak over what they thought was a Gravis Librarian, despite it just being a rendition of the standard model and the artist simply taking a few liberties with the appearance.
GW don't do that on the regular any more. All artwork has to look exactly like the model, no deviations.
Same goes for rules. You see it still being used, but there are an infuriating amount of newbies that have acquired old models etc. that simply have no idea how malleable the game should be and ask daft questions they frankly shouldn't have to ask because they've been codified with only what GW have told them is correct (almost life imitating art with rigid adherence to the codex and Gulliman coming back and telling everyone how it was/should be ). "Can I use xyz as a DP?", "What is this weapon" etc. etc.
1. They have effectively ensured that no tournament will allow index models with their "recommendation".
Probably. Or the tournament organisers could think for themselves.
IME most modern 40k players want to be spoonfed everything. If they don't get an edict from GW on what something exactly is or how it is supposed to be used then madness occurs. You could see this yesterday on various social media platforms with people losing their gak over what they thought was a Gravis Librarian, despite it just being a rendition of the standard model and the artist simply taking a few liberties with the appearance.
GW don't do that on the regular any more. All artwork has to look exactly like the model, no deviations.
Same goes for rules. You see it still being used, but there are an infuriating amount of newbies that have acquired old models etc. that simply have no idea how malleable the game should be and ask daft questions they frankly shouldn't have to ask because they've been codified with only what GW have told them is correct (almost life imitating art with rigid adherence to the codex and Gulliman coming back and telling everyone how it was/should be ). "Can I use xyz as a DP?", "What is this weapon" etc. etc.
IME most modern 40k players want to be spoonfed everything. If they don't get an edict from GW on what something exactly is or how it is supposed to be used then madness occurs. You could see this yesterday on various social media platforms with people losing their gak over what they thought was a Gravis Librarian, despite it just being a rendition of the standard model and the artist simply taking a few liberties with the appearance.
GW don't do that on the regular any more. All artwork has to look exactly like the model, no deviations.
Same goes for rules. You see it still being used, but there are an infuriating amount of newbies that have acquired old models etc. that simply have no idea how malleable the game should be and ask daft questions they frankly shouldn't have to ask because they've been codified with only what GW have told them is correct (almost life imitating art with rigid adherence to the codex and Gulliman coming back and telling everyone how it was/should be ). "Can I use xyz as a DP?", "What is this weapon" etc. etc.
How else is it suppose to work though? You can't invent rules yourself, and making models with illegal set up of weapons seems stupid, won't be able to use the model as what you build it as, but you invested time and money in to it.
No it will not stop there.
That is a bet i'd make. And I don't bet.
Just waiting for the Tournament rules only pickup crowd to throw their weight around. And people wonder why certain parts of the community dislike the comp scene
AngryAngel80 wrote:Legends isn't really a hit to WAAC, Legends is really a hit to players who play tournament only type games. As their casual reference of " They'll recommend they not be in tournaments " is a kiss of death for some players.
Some, like me, couldn't care any less but for some what GW deems legal and not is the absolute end all be all of this game as it stands.
There might be a couple index options that are point for point better, but most are just simply niche flavor models or beloved old models. I don't think someone bringing rough riders is WAAC, and if they are thought of like that, god help us all.
It's sad that some people cannot think outside the box. I say all the time that playing 3k vs 1k is perfectly fine...as long as your opponent agrees to it. But some people are specifically trying to gain any minuscule advantage over another player, so if it is "legal" for their method of play (tourney/cutthroat) they will damn use it to the nth degree. Now that the "loopholes" they've been using are being closed, need to completely change how they do business. Chapterhouse is an additional reason but not the sole one.
My Librarian on bike will remain in my army forever and will continue to use them as well.
On top, 3 bonebreakers are 477pts. Bad example I would say.
I think you guys should play in a meta that has them before you crap on them.
Snakebite Bonebreakas wind up being 4+/5++/6+++. The 3 of them are about the same cost as a regular shooty knight and you can spend all game and not kill all of them.
They will be in your army's face turn 1. Either you're shooting them or the Wazboms, but either way it's really hard to crack them before turn 3 unless you have MW spam. Yes, they require other units to operate this way, but so does everything else.
Right, because my Kustom made Warboss on Warbike that I made during 6th edition that I spent 12 hours on is broken and makes me WAAC for wanting to use him. And if they nerfed the units instead of disallowing them they would still be yelled at and made to look bad.
Then there shouldn't be an issue mounting him to a larger base with some scenery and doing counts-as a war trike? And they aren't allowed to nerf units if they make things too powerful? That makes no sense.
Case and point, my 12 lovingly built and painted Killa Kanz that I can't use in a game because my opponents get bored of winning with ease.
Maybe you should try run and charge with them? All their good weapons ARE assault after all.
Also, in regards to "unintended" no, it was not an unintended consequence, the unit has been included since at least 4th edition, GW knows its ability and how it functions in an Ork Army, but what they don't do is make a model for it
If they made a model for it then it wouldn't have the rules it does. You can't declare that GW had rules precognition from an index unit that was dropped a year and a half later.
Also, Bonebreakers advance D6 as far as I know, So that averages about 9' charge, 8 if you take Evil Sunz. So it has a good chance to get into CC, but not a great one. And if you don't get 1st turn OR if you are unlucky enough to not get your charge off then both your wartrike and bonebreaker are dead.
12 + 3 or 4 = 8" or 9" remaining, which means a 7 or 8 for a charge roll - lean towards 8, because nothing is that precise. You get an easy 3D6 for one with the stratagem, so with 3 BBs you have two in almost all the time plus the trike.
On top, 3 bonebreakers are 477pts. Bad example I would say.
I think you guys should play in a meta that has them before you crap on them.
Snakebite Bonebreakas wind up being 4+/5++/6+++. The 3 of them are about the same cost as a regular shooty knight and you can spend all game and not kill all of them.
They will be in your army's face turn 1. Either you're shooting them or the Wazboms, but either way it's really hard to crack them before turn 3 unless you have MW spam. Yes, they require other units to operate this way, but so does everything else.
Dae you don't play Orks often enough/in a competitive setting regularly to really comment on Ork tactics. Here's a few responses to just the above (and why it's a bad idea);
1. Every Ork player with the capabilities has tried to make Bonebreakers work.
2. Where is the 5++ from? The Wazzbomm? There's another ton of points.
3. Bonebreakers and the Trikeboss can't fly. So their ability to deal damage is severely limited on maps with terrain, particularly when most of their damage output is from their melee attacks.
4. They aren't difficult to kill.
5. They can't do anything to flyers.
6. Why would anyone want to lock themselves into the Snakebite clan that has by far the worst sub faction trait in a faction that can easily give said sub faction trait out to infantry anyway?
7. They really aren't difficult to kill.
E - 8. What sort of insane/bad ass person puts their units anywhere near the front of their deployment zone if they are against an Ork with 3 Bonebreakas? Any unit they can have on terrain will be on terrain. The rest will be as far back as possible.
On top, 3 bonebreakers are 477pts. Bad example I would say.
I think you guys should play in a meta that has them before you crap on them.
Snakebite Bonebreakas wind up being 4+/5++/6+++. The 3 of them are about the same cost as a regular shooty knight and you can spend all game and not kill all of them.
They will be in your army's face turn 1. Either you're shooting them or the Wazboms, but either way it's really hard to crack them before turn 3 unless you have MW spam. Yes, they require other units to operate this way, but so does everything else.
Dae you don't play Orks often enough/in a competitive setting regularly to really comment on Ork tactics. Here's a few responses to just the above (and why it's a bad idea);
1. Every Ork player with the capabilities has tried to make Bonebreakers work.
2. Where is the 5++ from? The Wazzbomm? There's another ton of points.
3. Bonebreakers and the Trikeboss can't fly. So their ability to deal damage is severely limited on maps with terrain, particularly when most of their damage output is from their melee attacks.
4. They aren't difficult to kill.
5. They can't do anything to flyers.
6. Why would anyone want to lock themselves into the Snakebite clan that has by far the worst sub faction trait in a faction that can easily give said sub faction trait out to infantry anyway?
7. They really aren't difficult to kill.
E - 8. What sort of insane/bad ass person puts their units anywhere near the front of their deployment zone if they are against an Ork with 3 Bonebreakas? Any unit they can have on terrain will be on terrain. The rest will be as far back as possible.
Orks are probably 1/5th of my games. Wazboms are not slouches for the points. Shooting Wazboms means you're not shooting BBs - same net result.
Why Snakebites? 6+++ on vehicles and +1 to wound for the ENTIRE army against large models.
I don't know how you consider them easy to kill when they're harder to kill than a 4++ knight.
On top, 3 bonebreakers are 477pts. Bad example I would say.
I think you guys should play in a meta that has them before you crap on them.
Snakebite Bonebreakas wind up being 4+/5++/6+++. The 3 of them are about the same cost as a regular shooty knight and you can spend all game and not kill all of them.
They will be in your army's face turn 1. Either you're shooting them or the Wazboms, but either way it's really hard to crack them before turn 3 unless you have MW spam. Yes, they require other units to operate this way, but so does everything else.
Dae you don't play Orks often enough/in a competitive setting regularly to really comment on Ork tactics. Here's a few responses to just the above (and why it's a bad idea);
1. Every Ork player with the capabilities has tried to make Bonebreakers work.
2. Where is the 5++ from? The Wazzbomm? There's another ton of points.
3. Bonebreakers and the Trikeboss can't fly. So their ability to deal damage is severely limited on maps with terrain, particularly when most of their damage output is from their melee attacks.
4. They aren't difficult to kill.
5. They can't do anything to flyers.
6. Why would anyone want to lock themselves into the Snakebite clan that has by far the worst sub faction trait in a faction that can easily give said sub faction trait out to infantry anyway?
7. They really aren't difficult to kill.
E - 8. What sort of insane/bad ass person puts their units anywhere near the front of their deployment zone if they are against an Ork with 3 Bonebreakas? Any unit they can have on terrain will be on terrain. The rest will be as far back as possible.
Orks are probably 1/5th of my games. Wazboms are not slouches for the points. Shooting Wazboms means you're not shooting BBs - same net result.
Why Snakebites? 6+++ on vehicles and +1 to wound for the ENTIRE army against large models.
I don't know how you consider them easy to kill when they're harder to kill than a 4++ knight.
With only T6 different guns can target Wazzbomms to what target the BBs.
Listen you seem really sold on this idea though so please, prove me wrong. Take it to a tournament and show us all the power of Snakebite BBs that clearly we missed. I just hope you don't run into the Eldar Flyer list, any Dark Eldar list, any other flying vehicles or bikes, infantry that can escape on terrain features or just a competent opponent that forces you to come to them.
I'm not saying BBs are the worst unit in the codex by the way, they're a few points off becoming useful to be honest, but as it stands and in the current meta taking 3 is dubious at best.
Karol wrote: What stops GW from giving a mega armoured mekk be given both sets of rules, to use with the same plastic model they sell.
The Chapter House lawsuits.
But that is crazy, this means to have lets say a space marine character with one new weapons you have to have a whole new model. Can't just have a captin or chapter master with a list of stuff they can take. What are they losing if someone else makes a model for their game anyway, those that buy recasts don't buy GW models in the first place, unless it is to make casts of their own. If GW products are better looking and priced, then those of other companies, people that buy GW models won't be buying 3ed company stuff. Is it some obscure law thing, like the stuff with comics, where if they don't restart them every X years, they go in to free domain, and everyone can make them, no questions asked?
Their copyright. I'm an engineer, not a lawyer, but as I understand, if you let people use your copyright without permission and make no attempt to enforce it, it enters public domain and you lose control of it. So they have to sue people people who make stuff for their models without trying to dress it up to maintain their control. Then, they lost the lawsuit against Chapterhouse with respects to the miniatures that they didn't make; that is to say that if they don't make the model for it, they can't claim copyright or trademark on it if somebody else does, having written up the rules and description of what it looks like isn't a substitute for actually having made it and selling it. The only really logical conclusion is that in order to protect their copyright, they don't want to have described ideas [rules] that they don't realize in miniature form, and stripping rules for un-made models is far easier and cost effective than making models for all the units with only rules.
That said, I don't suspect that the Legends decision falls under the purview of legally motivated restrictions; since they're still publishing rules for them. They're just barring them from tournaments. It definitely feels much more balance motivated than legally [or even cost, since it would presumably be more cost effective to keep printing the index]; since it gives them greater control of the meta and means they don't have to consider or support legacy units when they write up and balance things.
1. They have effectively ensured that no tournament will allow index models with their "recommendation".
Probably. Or the tournament organisers could think for themselves.
IME most modern 40k players want to be spoonfed everything. If they don't get an edict from GW on what something exactly is or how it is supposed to be used then madness occurs. You could see this yesterday on various social media platforms with people losing their gak over what they thought was a Gravis Librarian, despite it just being a rendition of the standard model and the artist simply taking a few liberties with the appearance.
GW don't do that on the regular any more. All artwork has to look exactly like the model, no deviations.
Same goes for rules. You see it still being used, but there are an infuriating amount of newbies that have acquired old models etc. that simply have no idea how malleable the game should be and ask daft questions they frankly shouldn't have to ask because they've been codified with only what GW have told them is correct (almost life imitating art with rigid adherence to the codex and Gulliman coming back and telling everyone how it was/should be ). "Can I use xyz as a DP?", "What is this weapon" etc. etc.
I see another way. The long-term success of 40K is based on a number of factors ranging from the quality of the models, the fluff/lore, accessible rules and the likelihood of getting a game. The last factor is quite important in a tabletop miniatures wargame. Why invest time and money into models that you might not find a game for. 40K has become a lingua franca or bridge that allows players to come to a store or club that do not know each other and have a good game without prior negotiating. That's why folks respect the Rule of 3 even when they are not at a tournament, and its why folks will not bring Legends models to pick-up games. That's also why you see players asking about proxies, counts-as because they do not want to make an investment with a high risk of no-return in terms of gaming.
Now, some folks might play in small, closed groups where they come up with all sorts of variations. Cruddace's stormtroopers are not going to break down the door to your basement gaming table when you are playing with close friends and not caring about things like the Rule of 3 and prohibitions against Legends/Index models. Expecting others, though, to be OK with your taking Legends models at 40K night at the FLGS in another matter.
I'm sad about my converted Librarian on a Bike, but I'll get over it. The Codicier model I mercilessly cut in half with bolt cutters to make the conversion is also sad. He'll play in narrative games in my basement but his FLGS days are pretty much done.
With only T6 different guns can target Wazzbomms to what target the BBs.
Listen you seem really sold on this idea though so please, prove me wrong. Take it to a tournament and show us all the power of Snakebite BBs that clearly we missed. I just hope you don't run into the Eldar Flyer list, any Dark Eldar list, any other flying vehicles or bikes, infantry that can escape on terrain features or just a competent opponent that forces you to come to them.
I'm not saying BBs are the worst unit in the codex by the way, they're a few points off becoming useful to be honest, but as it stands and in the current meta taking 3 is dubious at best.
I wont tell you that 3 BBs are going to crack the meta. I dont own enough to take it to tournaments, but I'll try and schedule time on TTS.
All of the Space Marine Index units got Angels of Death, so I don't think they are dead quite yet.
I imagine Legends units are ones that they don't make and don't really fit in the narrative anymore, like the old Marneus Calgar models will get tossed into Legends, or one shot models like the Imperial Space Marine.
The Librarian on bike never had a model as far as I can remember, nor did the Librarian with a jump pack. Will they get the Legends treatment? Maybe?
But the Sisters of Silence are still being made, and I doubt they are going to put a plastic kit in Legends, so lets not jump and assume all Index units are going to get flushed.
Damn.
Wolf Guard Bikers are going to Legends...it’s not like they’re a difficult model to build - literally a Space Wolves upgrade sprue and a Space Marine Bikers box.
I think you guys should play in a meta that has them before you crap on them.
Snakebite Bonebreakas wind up being 4+/5++/6+++. The 3 of them are about the same cost as a regular shooty knight and you can spend all game and not kill all of them.
They will be in your army's face turn 1. Either you're shooting them or the Wazboms, but either way it's really hard to crack them before turn 3 unless you have MW spam. Yes, they require other units to operate this way, but so does everything else.
A shooty Knight will focus fire the Wazbom to death with its avenger and rapid fire battlecannon turn 1 because it will be a lot further away then you seem to think, unless your opponent is terrible he won't deploy his knight on the deployment line. So now you are down to a 4+ and a 6+++. Of course all of that is against a Knight Crusader which costs 478pts, since you gave them a wazbom, a closer comparison would be a Castellan, and a castellan is killing a BB each and every turn and still has enough dakka to kill a wazbom with its secondary weapons
Then there shouldn't be an issue mounting him to a larger base with some scenery and doing counts-as a war trike? And they aren't allowed to nerf units if they make things too powerful? That makes no sense.
Sure, I have plenty of time to rip apart models that I have kustom made for hte purposes of further converting them to a unit that I absolutely hate and would never field.
Maybe you should try run and charge with them? All their good weapons ARE assault after all.
Sure, let me take a unit that sucks, and run it as fast as possible (which is slow as hell) at the enemy and hope they make it into CC where they......hit on 5s. 6' move and if they run they become BS5. Ohh, and they also don't have Ere we go and can't charge after advancing.
If they made a model for it then it wouldn't have the rules it does. You can't declare that GW had rules precognition from an index unit that was dropped a year and a half later.
Not trying to be rude but this has to be the most disingenuous comment of the day. I can't "Declare GW had rules precognition from an index" Really? No seriously, really? So I can't say GW was aware of the index....that they printed, about units they invented and wrote rules for for decades? I mean, is this the argument you want to use? The rules team apparently forgot that every single army in the entire game had an index option (Barring new units/factions) when 8th dropped and now that they are getting around to writing the codex they somehow cant remember what was in the book. Sorry this argument holds as much water as a sieve.
12 + 3 or 4 = 8" or 9" remaining, which means a 7 or 8 for a charge roll - lean towards 8, because nothing is that precise. You get an easy 3D6 for one with the stratagem, so with 3 BBs you have two in almost all the time plus the trike.
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.
A shooty Knight will focus fire the Wazbom to death with its avenger and rapid fire battlecannon turn 1 because it will be a lot further away then you seem to think, unless your opponent is terrible he won't deploy his knight on the deployment line. So now you are down to a 4+ and a 6+++. Of course all of that is against a Knight Crusader which costs 478pts, since you gave them a wazbom, a closer comparison would be a Castellan, and a castellan is killing a BB each and every turn and still has enough dakka to kill a wazbom with its secondary weapons
And you spent all that time on the Wazbom. I'd probably bring two or a Mek and use the Projekta, because I'd need just a turn or two of protection. And, again, for the record - a RFBC/Gat Knight can't easily kill a Wazbom in one go.
Sure, I have plenty of time to rip apart models that I have kustom made for hte purposes of further converting them to a unit that I absolutely hate and would never field.
This is confusing. You love the model and wish to field it, but you don't like the rules of the wartrike. So what is your motive, really? Model or rules?
can't charge after advancing.
Sure they can. Wartrike lets them. Banner gets them hitting on 4s (tellyporta him). It does suck that they don't get Kultur.
Not trying to be rude but this has to be the most disingenuous comment of the day. I can't "Declare GW had rules precognition from an index" Really? No seriously, really? So I can't say GW was aware of the index....that they printed, about units they invented and wrote rules for for decades? I mean, is this the argument you want to use? The rules team apparently forgot that every single army in the entire game had an index option (Barring new units/factions) when 8th dropped and now that they are getting around to writing the codex they somehow cant remember what was in the book. Sorry this argument holds as much water as a sieve.
Let's ponder this for a moment. Ork Index happened June 2016. Ork Codex was Nov 2018. That's over 2 years.
So then what should GW do? Worry about every possible interaction for index units? They could have changed the rules for the Warboss so that you wouldn't use it, which is the same god-damn net result, but they didn't because it's a waste of time.
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.
Yea...that's called board control.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah Daed you still have yet to show which Index units are WAAC
The ones we see on top tables. Perhaps WAAC is the wrong term, but it is the term that fits my mind set.
The handful of possible index options being an issue doesn't mean we should purge the other 99 percent of older models and their rules and make them de facto out of the game.
Two things are always going to be true, GW has no real interest in making a truly balanced (especially with letting the models team lead and then telling the rules team to figure it out) game and someone who wants to break the game or find some unintended combo will always do so outside of some kind of mirror match.
A shooty Knight will focus fire the Wazbom to death with its avenger and rapid fire battlecannon turn 1 because it will be a lot further away then you seem to think, unless your opponent is terrible he won't deploy his knight on the deployment line. So now you are down to a 4+ and a 6+++. Of course all of that is against a Knight Crusader which costs 478pts, since you gave them a wazbom, a closer comparison would be a Castellan, and a castellan is killing a BB each and every turn and still has enough dakka to kill a wazbom with its secondary weapons
And you spent all that time on the Wazbom. I'd probably bring two or a Mek and use the Projekta, because I'd need just a turn or two of protection. And, again, for the record - a RFBC/Gat Knight can't easily kill a Wazbom in one go.
Sure, I have plenty of time to rip apart models that I have kustom made for hte purposes of further converting them to a unit that I absolutely hate and would never field.
This is confusing. You love the model and wish to field it, but you don't like the rules of the wartrike. So what is your motive, really? Model or rules?
can't charge after advancing.
Sure they can. Wartrike lets them. Banner gets them hitting on 4s (tellyporta him). It does suck that they don't get Kultur.
Not trying to be rude but this has to be the most disingenuous comment of the day. I can't "Declare GW had rules precognition from an index" Really? No seriously, really? So I can't say GW was aware of the index....that they printed, about units they invented and wrote rules for for decades? I mean, is this the argument you want to use? The rules team apparently forgot that every single army in the entire game had an index option (Barring new units/factions) when 8th dropped and now that they are getting around to writing the codex they somehow cant remember what was in the book. Sorry this argument holds as much water as a sieve.
Let's ponder this for a moment. Ork Index happened June 2016. Ork Codex was Nov 2018. That's over 2 years.
So then what should GW do? Worry about every possible interaction for index units? They could have changed the rules for the Warboss so that you wouldn't use it, which is the same god-damn net result, but they didn't because it's a waste of time.
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.
Yea...that's called board control.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah Daed you still have yet to show which Index units are WAAC
The ones we see on top tables. Perhaps WAAC is the wrong term, but it is the term that fits my mind set.
And you spent all that time on the Wazbom. I'd probably bring two or a Mek and use the Projekta, because I'd need just a turn or two of protection. And, again, for the record - a RFBC/Gat Knight can't easily kill a Wazbom in one go.
A RFBC/Gat knight can kill a Wazbom in 1 turn, give him the anti-air gun and if it really matters, give him a strat.
This is confusing. You love the model and wish to field it, but you don't like the rules of the wartrike. So what is your motive, really? Model or rules?
Ready for this.....Both, and the fact that I started playing this game as a Speed Freak evil sun and the idea of not having a warboss on warbike is offensive So add in fluff as well.
Sure they can. Wartrike lets them. Banner gets them hitting on 4s (tellyporta him). It does suck that they don't get Kultur.
So take a really crappy unit (kanz) Add in a slow infantry model (who doesn't benefit from the Wartrike) and add in a wartrike. So you are left with zero ranged weapons that matter, no CC weapons that are that scary and most of your army will die before turn 2 is over. When you find a way to make Killa Kanz competitive you let everyone else in the ork community know, because a lot of us have been trying for years. And your suggestion above, yeah, that doesn't make them competitive, hell it doesn't even make them survive past turn 2.
Let's ponder this for a moment. Ork Index happened June 2016. Ork Codex was Nov 2018. That's over 2 years.
So then what should GW do? Worry about every possible interaction for index units? They could have changed the rules for the Warboss so that you wouldn't use it, which is the same god-damn net result, but they didn't because it's a waste of time.
Very good point actually. It isn't fair to think GW can remember an index they wrote a year prior (BTW 8th came out in 2017 not 2016) I mean, look how they completely forgot everything in prior editions where Orkz went the better part of a decade without a new codex. Your argument yet again holds no water.
Yea...that's called board control.
So you can use board control during the deployment phase to force your opponent to deploy on the very edge of the deployment zone with his valuable units and he wont put up a screening unit? Wow you are good. Or you could be talking nonsense.
So then what should GW do? Worry about every possible interaction for index units? They could have changed the rules for the Warboss so that you wouldn't use it, which is the same god-damn net result, but they didn't because it's a waste of time.
But GW doesn't care about rules balance at all. They want people to buy more models, and not use old or 3ed party models, or stuff they build on their own, and that is all.
So then what should GW do? Worry about every possible interaction for index units? They could have changed the rules for the Warboss so that you wouldn't use it, which is the same god-damn net result, but they didn't because it's a waste of time.
But GW doesn't care about rules balance at all. They want people to buy more models, and not use old or 3ed party models, or stuff they build on their own, and that is all.
And you spent all that time on the Wazbom. I'd probably bring two or a Mek and use the Projekta, because I'd need just a turn or two of protection. And, again, for the record - a RFBC/Gat Knight can't easily kill a Wazbom in one go.
A RFBC/Gat knight can kill a Wazbom in 1 turn, give him the anti-air gun and if it really matters, give him a strat.
This is confusing. You love the model and wish to field it, but you don't like the rules of the wartrike. So what is your motive, really? Model or rules?
Ready for this.....Both, and the fact that I started playing this game as a Speed Freak evil sun and the idea of not having a warboss on warbike is offensive So add in fluff as well.
Sure they can. Wartrike lets them. Banner gets them hitting on 4s (tellyporta him). It does suck that they don't get Kultur.
So take a really crappy unit (kanz) Add in a slow infantry model (who doesn't benefit from the Wartrike) and add in a wartrike. So you are left with zero ranged weapons that matter, no CC weapons that are that scary and most of your army will die before turn 2 is over. When you find a way to make Killa Kanz competitive you let everyone else in the ork community know, because a lot of us have been trying for years. And your suggestion above, yeah, that doesn't make them competitive, hell it doesn't even make them survive past turn 2.
Let's ponder this for a moment. Ork Index happened June 2016. Ork Codex was Nov 2018. That's over 2 years.
So then what should GW do? Worry about every possible interaction for index units? They could have changed the rules for the Warboss so that you wouldn't use it, which is the same god-damn net result, but they didn't because it's a waste of time.
Very good point actually. It isn't fair to think GW can remember an index they wrote a year prior (BTW 8th came out in 2017 not 2016) I mean, look how they completely forgot everything in prior editions where Orkz went the better part of a decade without a new codex. Your argument yet again holds no water.
Yea...that's called board control.
So you can use board control during the deployment phase to force your opponent to deploy on the very edge of the deployment zone with his valuable units and he wont put up a screening unit? Wow you are good. Or you could be talking nonsense.
- We're straying pretty far at this point, but suffice to say the RFBC & Gat does 6 wounds - add 2 for Icarus. For a knight that only Chaos has. If you want to drop CP to kill a 160 point model then be my guest. It is in its entirety - a win.
- If you're worried about fluff and rules, then the Wartrike fits the bill entirely - model is a sufficiently minor issue. What model fits the Speed Freeks better than the Wartrike? Claiming a need for the warboss in a 'fluff' perspective for Evil Sunz feels considerably disingenuous when you're using it to buff Evil Sunz Infantry.
- Little escapes a model that moves 20" w/ Ere' We Go or a model that moves 15/16" and charges 10.5" average.
You know damned well despite your attempts to be facetious. You will likely find no index units in tournaments that don't add significant value, so stop being obtuse.
So instead of taking a list to a tournament that I like for fun or fluff reasons, I'll instead do the same with less options.
In the same vein, if all I care about is winning (hang the background) I'll still probably find a broken combo if that's all I care about. Your acting like codex 8th is balanced with options, which it really isn't at this point.
This is probably the one of the most option free in terms of unit choices that 40k has had and it's still a mess unless your playing against someone who has the same idea of what a game should be to you. All they've done is trim choices and units down and the still are no were near a balanced game.
So then what should GW do? Worry about every possible interaction for index units? They could have changed the rules for the Warboss so that you wouldn't use it, which is the same god-damn net result, but they didn't because it's a waste of time.
But GW doesn't care about rules balance at all. They want people to buy more models, and not use old or 3ed party models, or stuff they build on their own, and that is all.
And you spent all that time on the Wazbom. I'd probably bring two or a Mek and use the Projekta, because I'd need just a turn or two of protection. And, again, for the record - a RFBC/Gat Knight can't easily kill a Wazbom in one go.
A RFBC/Gat knight can kill a Wazbom in 1 turn, give him the anti-air gun and if it really matters, give him a strat.
This is confusing. You love the model and wish to field it, but you don't like the rules of the wartrike. So what is your motive, really? Model or rules?
Ready for this.....Both, and the fact that I started playing this game as a Speed Freak evil sun and the idea of not having a warboss on warbike is offensive So add in fluff as well.
Sure they can. Wartrike lets them. Banner gets them hitting on 4s (tellyporta him). It does suck that they don't get Kultur.
So take a really crappy unit (kanz) Add in a slow infantry model (who doesn't benefit from the Wartrike) and add in a wartrike. So you are left with zero ranged weapons that matter, no CC weapons that are that scary and most of your army will die before turn 2 is over. When you find a way to make Killa Kanz competitive you let everyone else in the ork community know, because a lot of us have been trying for years. And your suggestion above, yeah, that doesn't make them competitive, hell it doesn't even make them survive past turn 2.
Let's ponder this for a moment. Ork Index happened June 2016. Ork Codex was Nov 2018. That's over 2 years.
So then what should GW do? Worry about every possible interaction for index units? They could have changed the rules for the Warboss so that you wouldn't use it, which is the same god-damn net result, but they didn't because it's a waste of time.
Very good point actually. It isn't fair to think GW can remember an index they wrote a year prior (BTW 8th came out in 2017 not 2016) I mean, look how they completely forgot everything in prior editions where Orkz went the better part of a decade without a new codex. Your argument yet again holds no water.
Yea...that's called board control.
So you can use board control during the deployment phase to force your opponent to deploy on the very edge of the deployment zone with his valuable units and he wont put up a screening unit? Wow you are good. Or you could be talking nonsense.
- We're straying pretty far at this point, but suffice to say the RFBC & Gat does 6 wounds - add 2 for Icarus. For a knight that only Chaos has. If you want to drop CP to kill a 160 point model then be my guest. It is in its entirety - a win.
- If you're worried about fluff and rules, then the Wartrike fits the bill entirely - model is a sufficiently minor issue. What model fits the Speed Freeks better than the Wartrike? Claiming a need for the warboss in a 'fluff' perspective for Evil Sunz feels considerably disingenuous when you're using it to buff Evil Sunz Infantry.
- Little escapes a model that moves 20" w/ Ere' We Go or a model that moves 15/16" and charges 10.5" average.
You know damned well despite your attempts to be facetious. You will likely find no index units in tournaments that don't add significant value, so stop being obtuse.
No I don't. That's why I asked you to please continue.
1) Tournaments don't have to allow them, and that is logical to me. That's just another 4-5 books a TO has to have on hand. So excluding a handful of units from each army is 100% fine. If you're attending a tournament you chose to play in that tournament and likewise elected to play this particularly narrow version of 40K. The same goes for people who bring armies with too many models to play in the allotted time - that's 100% on you. No tournament is required to cater to your play style, nor your model collection.
2) In any other environment you can play your Index units. If your friends aren't douche-bags you can even apply codex special rules, or reduce the points on them so it becomes a no-brainer. No one is stopping you from using these units, you just can't use them in a tournament...and that's completely fine.
HoundsofDemos wrote:So instead of taking a list to a tournament that I like for fun or fluff reasons, I'll instead do the same with less options.
In the same vein, if all I care about is winning (hang the background) I'll still probably find a broken combo if that's all I care about. Your acting like codex 8th is balanced with options, which it really isn't at this point.
This is probably the one of the most option free in terms of unit choices that 40k has had and it's still a mess unless your playing against someone who has the same idea of what a game should be to you. All they've done is trim choices and units down and the still are no were near a balanced game.
Well, it's one less broken combo; and makes it easier to work with, since they don't have to continue support for and consider how something will affect a unit that was written in 3 years ago.
Also, if the unit was only useful in fluffy lists, then there's no loss for it being stricken from tournament play and this eliminates the chance of something unexpectedly making it good, and if it is currently unexpectedly good, then it probably would be for the best if it was removed since there's not a whole lot they can do about it once it's in the index save a major overhaul to whatever interaction it's benefiting from which might be fine or underpowered otherwise.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
No I don't. That's why I asked you to please continue.
I explained one already: Imagifiers; Index Imperial II. A character that carries the Sisters' Battle Standard. The Battle Standard was changed from granting an additional act of faith on a 4+ under the index faith rules to granting +1 to faith tests under the Beta Codex rules, and changed from being bought on a character to being bought as a squad upgrade. This would be useless, since an Imagifier is basically worthless as a body, but a stratagem exists that makes all ADEPTA SORORITAS units [order agnostic and not checking for the Acts of Faith rule] near a character that passes an Act gain that act's benefit; thus the character can gain a total +2 to acts and for 3CP buff units around her that would ordinarily be unable to or unlikely to ever receive the effect. It's definitely not the strongest thing out there, in part because it's supporting at best a mid-tier faction with limited [but fairly decent options], but it's a very unintended effect that is appreciably stronger than the ability was designed as.
Also, I can definitely see why a Warboss on Bike could be a desired choice from a beyond-fluff standpoint, for the same reason that I want a Canoness with Jump Pack. I have fast units that will outrun their support, and I want my HQ with the buff aura to be able to keep pace with them. You could/can T1 charge incredibly easily with stormboyz with a bikeboss but can't with a trikeboss; that's definitely added capability that has a lot of potential. Bike characters in general offer a lot, since they're all around better than Jump Pack characters. A bike gives additional toughness, speed, and firepower, compared with a pack which just gives speed, it's really just a question of cost.
Elbows wrote: Here's the simple thing for me and Index Units...
Spoiler:
1) Tournaments don't have to allow them, and that is logical to me. That's just another 4-5 books a TO has to have on hand. So excluding a handful of units from each army is 100% fine. If you're attending a tournament you chose to play in that tournament and likewise elected to play this particularly narrow version of 40K. The same goes for people who bring armies with too many models to play in the allotted time - that's 100% on you. No tournament is required to cater to your play style, nor your model collection.
2) In any other environment you can play your Index units. If your friends aren't douche-bags you can even apply codex special rules, or reduce the points on them so it becomes a no-brainer. No one is stopping you from using these units, you just can't use them in a tournament...and that's completely fine.
This is a very important part of the game, maybe the most.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
No I don't. That's why I asked you to please continue.
I explained one already: Imagifiers; Index Imperial II. A character that carries the Sisters' Battle Standard. The Battle Standard was changed from granting an additional act of faith on a 4+ under the index faith rules to granting +1 to faith tests under the Beta Codex rules, and changed from being bought on a character to being bought as a squad upgrade. This would be useless, since an Imagifier is basically worthless as a body, but a stratagem exists that makes all ADEPTA SORORITAS units [order agnostic and not checking for the Acts of Faith rule] near a character that passes an Act gain that act's benefit; thus the character can gain a total +2 to acts and for 3CP buff units around her that would ordinarily be unable to or unlikely to ever receive the effect. It's definitely not the strongest thing out there, in part because it's supporting at best a mid-tier faction with limited [but fairly decent options], but it's a very unintended effect that is appreciably stronger than the ability was designed as.
Also, I can definitely see why a Warboss on Bike could be a desired choice from a beyond-fluff standpoint, for the same reason that I want a Canoness with Jump Pack. I have fast units that will outrun their support, and I want my HQ with the buff aura to be able to keep pace with them. You could/can T1 charge incredibly easily with stormboyz with a bikeboss but can't with a trikeboss; that's definitely added capability that has a lot of potential. Bike characters in general offer a lot, since they're all around better than Jump Pack characters. A bike gives additional toughness, speed, and firepower, compared with a pack which just gives speed, it's really just a question of cost.
Perhaps you should let Dae answer the question posed to him?
And Dae - please stop trying to push garbage units on Ork players. Kans are one of the worst units in the book, no sane Ork will take them. Look at their cost and their LD.
all the fast changes, like the one to the SW codex for example, were done only because it could impact their sales. When something is selling well, they don't care how it warps the meta. How long did it take them to change the castellan? a year or so. IG are the prime source of problems with the top imperial armies, and they haven't adressed them at all, or to be more precise, they made stuff better and cheaper for them. It doesn't help balance, but it helps to sell more IG.
just look at how they fix stuff, when they finaly go and fix something. They don't make stuff that was too good, on the same tier as mid tier stuff. Oh no, they make an Inari style update. And it seems like it has been like that for a long time. I haven't played in prior editions, but from what people say GK were too good in 5th ed. At the same time in 6 and 7 edition, according to what people say, they were bottom tier armies. And they are bottom tier armies still in 8th. One would think that after an edition, max two, someone at GW may have thought that this is kind of a unbalanced or unfair. But as there is no GK stuff to sell, and the sells themselfs are kind of on the low side .I assume but I doubt GK sell like hot cakes in US/UK/EU, so they don't care about updating them. Heck they treated the whole WFB game like that for mulitiple editions, only to kill it in the end.
Ah and by the way, I don't think it is evil on GW side to do so. I understand that they aren't friends of their customers. I just think it is stupid, because with a very little effort they could rise the sales of stuff that sell bad, and still have good sales on their main merch.
And Dae - please stop trying to push garbage units on Ork players. Kans are one of the worst units in the book, no sane Ork will take them. Look at their cost and their LD.
Maybe orc players just don't know how to play orcs. One of the playtesters or game designers said that to GK players, and considering that both orks and GK players are w40k players, I see no reason why two or more faction could consist of people not knowing how to properly play their factions.
On top, 3 bonebreakers are 477pts. Bad example I would say.
I think you guys should play in a meta that has them before you crap on them.
Snakebite Bonebreakas wind up being 4+/5++/6+++. The 3 of them are about the same cost as a regular shooty knight and you can spend all game and not kill all of them.
They will be in your army's face turn 1. Either you're shooting them or the Wazboms, but either way it's really hard to crack them before turn 3 unless you have MW spam. Yes, they require other units to operate this way, but so does everything else.
Dae you don't play Orks often enough/in a competitive setting regularly to really comment on Ork tactics. Here's a few responses to just the above (and why it's a bad idea);
1. Every Ork player with the capabilities has tried to make Bonebreakers work. 2. Where is the 5++ from? The Wazzbomm? There's another ton of points. 3. Bonebreakers and the Trikeboss can't fly. So their ability to deal damage is severely limited on maps with terrain, particularly when most of their damage output is from their melee attacks. 4. They aren't difficult to kill. 5. They can't do anything to flyers. 6. Why would anyone want to lock themselves into the Snakebite clan that has by far the worst sub faction trait in a faction that can easily give said sub faction trait out to infantry anyway? 7. They really aren't difficult to kill. E - 8. What sort of insane/bad ass person puts their units anywhere near the front of their deployment zone if they are against an Ork with 3 Bonebreakas? Any unit they can have on terrain will be on terrain. The rest will be as far back as possible.
I agree with everything on Actual Englishman's list. And I never agree with him on anything, ever, which is by itself enough to prove you more than wrong Daedalus81. If you need help handling bone breakers, feel free to shoot me a message. I have fielded them often enoguh to tell you how to counter them with most armies.
Daedalus81 wrote: Sure they can. Wartrike lets them. Banner gets them hitting on 4s (tellyporta him). It does suck that they don't get Kultur.
So take a really crappy unit (kanz) Add in a slow infantry model (who doesn't benefit from the Wartrike) and add in a wartrike. So you are left with zero ranged weapons that matter, no CC weapons that are that scary and most of your army will die before turn 2 is over. When you find a way to make Killa Kanz competitive you let everyone else in the ork community know, because a lot of us have been trying for years. And your suggestion above, yeah, that doesn't make them competitive, hell it doesn't even make them survive past turn 2.
I would like to add that I did exactly that in a friendly game, even with a morkanaut carrying a KFF behind them and drawing fire, plus using the shoot twice stratagem from vigilus.
Guess what? They killed 3 helblasters and 4 intercessors - totally worth 409 points and 5 CP.
Notice in the NEW SMFAQ's - Index Chaplains not only didnt get the full Litanies, their current litany was reworded to not be automatic - you now have to roll for it.
The Forgeworld Chaplain models got the full Litanies.
They're letting us kill off the Index like they're letting us kill off the 1.0 Marines.
. Any further rule adjustments are not going to be added to this unit. So any further changes like we saw in the space marine codex might not apply to them. Now you can certainly use them in pickup games, which is fine for me. I won't ever have an issue. But I also wonder if any of those legends units will make it to the next edition?
