Scrolling through the Chaos Space Marien Legion Tactics, they seem really weak and minimal in their capacity compared to the Space Marines Chapter Tactics.
Night Lords? Models in enemy units must subtract 1 from their Leadership characteristic for each unit with this trait that is within 6" of theirs (to a maximum of -3). Ohh, one whole Leadership point, assuming you're not ganking one unit.
Word Bearers? You can re-roll failed Morale tests for units with this trait. And Space Marines already have this automatically...
Alpha Legion? Your opponent must subtract 1 from hit rolls that target units with this trait if they are more than 12" away. Raven Guard get this plus +1 to cover, even out in the open.
I could note more, but I hope that you get the point that Chaos Legion Tactics are inferior to Space Marine Chapter Tactics. Does anyone else feel this way? By the way, I am not a Chaos Space Marine player, I merely compare and contrast rules in the hopes of balance. Chaos Space Marines get one, MAYBE two tactics, meanwhile Space Marines get 2-3. Thoughts?
This is called power creep. Were the new hotness always has to be the strongest thing out there to get people to buy it. Many of the early 8th edition armies can't keep up with many of the new stuff. This is especially hard for CSM as they recently got a major update not long before the new Space Marines so they must have known what was coming.
Note as a Space Marine player I wont mind until they are weak again.
This is old news for chaos players, chaos space marines are the worst unit in Codex Chaos Space Marines, CSM codex """"2.0"""" is a scam, cultists get nerfed in every major rule update, the list goes on.
it's honestly a reoccuring theme at this point sadly CSM rather then be the "Dark twin" of loyalist marines are useally more often the "inbred hick cousin"
BrianDavion wrote: it's honestly a reoccuring theme at this point sadly CSM rather then be the "Dark twin" of loyalist marines are useally more often the "inbred hick cousin"
Well, it would explain why they turned from the Emperor's light...
BrianDavion wrote: it's honestly a reoccuring theme at this point sadly CSM rather then be the "Dark twin" of loyalist marines are useally more often the "inbred hick cousin"
Wasn't that codex better than the loyalist one for all of eight edition, right up until SM2.0 came out?
*edit* not trying to say you deserved being stomped by loyalists since you were better before, or dont deserve a huge update - CSM clearly needs fixing.
BrianDavion wrote: it's honestly a reoccuring theme at this point sadly CSM rather then be the "Dark twin" of loyalist marines are useally more often the "inbred hick cousin"
Wasn't that codex better than the loyalist one for all of eight edition, right up until SM2.0 came out?
*edit* not trying to say you deserved being stomped by loyalists since you were better before, or dont deserve a huge update - CSM clearly needs fixing.
Not really; as part of Soup Lists, yes. Otherwise, no.
Psionara wrote: Scrolling through the Chaos Space Marien Legion Tactics, they seem really weak and minimal in their capacity compared to the Space Marines Chapter Tactics.
Night Lords? Models in enemy units must subtract 1 from their Leadership characteristic for each unit with this trait that is within 6" of theirs (to a maximum of -3). Ohh, one whole Leadership point, assuming you're not ganking one unit.
Word Bearers? You can re-roll failed Morale tests for units with this trait. And Space Marines already have this automatically...
Alpha Legion? Your opponent must subtract 1 from hit rolls that target units with this trait if they are more than 12" away. Raven Guard get this plus +1 to cover, even out in the open.
I could note more, but I hope that you get the point that Chaos Legion Tactics are inferior to Space Marine Chapter Tactics. Does anyone else feel this way? By the way, I am not a Chaos Space Marine player, I merely compare and contrast rules in the hopes of balance. Chaos Space Marines get one, MAYBE two tactics, meanwhile Space Marines get 2-3. Thoughts?
They're universally regarded as gak, except for the Alpha Legion trait, which is the only trait we have which is superior to some of the our counterparts. The Word Bearers trait is the only trait in the game which can (and will) hurt you more than it benefits you.
If you're here to play an RPG, you might be able to jump through enough hoops to pretend these are '''fun''' (whatever that means, I can't say losing a majority of games before my models each get on the board is fun, but to each his own!) or 'flavourful' (when most if not all do not reflect the Legions fluff in any manner beyond the WE and maybe Night Lords one), but if you've actually played the game you'll recognise most of these are worthless.
The CSM codex isn't even worth using to wipe cat pee off the floor.
BrianDavion wrote: it's honestly a reoccuring theme at this point sadly CSM rather then be the "Dark twin" of loyalist marines are useally more often the "inbred hick cousin"
Wasn't that codex better than the loyalist one for all of eight edition, right up until SM2.0 came out?
*edit* not trying to say you deserved being stomped by loyalists since you were better before, or dont deserve a huge update - CSM clearly needs fixing.
For a very small window during the indexes, yes. But the moment Guilliman and the Ultramarines dropped in, SM became pretty dang good for a very long time. And before saying "well thats only a fraction of the book", well CSM were good for only a fraction of their book too.
And since then, every single list i've seen online in an attempt to do good with Chaos has involved soup, after soup, after soup. Blobs of infantry and 2 primarchs, Ahriman and 2 DPs. The only time I recall CSM in recent memory having a meta list that was /entirely/ CSM was back when Knights came out in a big bad way, and Abbadon and a crap ton of lascannons were one of the few ways Chaos could compete in a reasonable fashion.
One of the best lists in the last couple months was 30 cultists, 3 knights with the exact same loadout, and 3 Lord Discordants.
Yes, CSM do fine in casual games. But what is "good" goes right out the window in casual games more times than not. Overall I think the legion traits are even worse than a lot of others, because for some ungodly reason they are STILL locked to only infantry, bikers, brutes and characters. The 2.0 codex was a joke. It didnt change anything at all, it just consolidated rules.
It's sad too, because there is some good stuff in F&F.
Unfortunately it simply reinforces 'You should play Alpha Legion.', but there's a lot of stuff in there, that, if the legions weren't in such crap condition, could be really good.
Honour the Prince is amazing, but it's tied to EC and deep strike is sketchy at best, this might have been good early in 8th. The World Eaters stuff, when I was trying desperately to make them work early in 8th, could have made them legit, now, not so much.
The Night Lords stuff is the same way, and the Iron Warriors stuff.
As it stands now though, maybe I'll field my AL list against my friends to see how it plays, but that's probably about it.
BrianDavion wrote: it's honestly a reoccuring theme at this point sadly CSM rather then be the "Dark twin" of loyalist marines are useally more often the "inbred hick cousin"
Wasn't that codex better than the loyalist one for all of eight edition, right up until SM2.0 came out?
*edit* not trying to say you deserved being stomped by loyalists since you were better before, or dont deserve a huge update - CSM clearly needs fixing.
I play both CSM and SM so this isn't a "GW NOT GIVING ME MAH POWER! GW FAVORING LOYALISTS!" so much as it's "I think GW's missed the mark with how CSMs and Space Marines should reflect one another more often then not" in fact I'd oppose slapping doctrines on CSMs and calling it a day. I'd prefer they do something reflecting the chaotic and fickle nature of the gods. a random table that USEALLY is about on par with doctrines, sometimes worse, othertimes better that changes from round to round. (tourny players would hate it, but chaos should by it's nature be less predictable while still not screwing you with a dice roll)
Unfortunately it simply reinforces 'You should play Alpha Legion.', but there's a lot of stuff in there, that, if the legions weren't in such crap condition, could be really good.
Honour the Prince is amazing, but it's tied to EC and deep strike is sketchy at best, this might have been good early in 8th. The World Eaters stuff, when I was trying desperately to make them work early in 8th, could have made them legit, now, not so much.
The Night Lords stuff is the same way, and the Iron Warriors stuff.
As it stands now though, maybe I'll field my AL list against my friends to see how it plays, but that's probably about it.
I'm just getting caught up, but WB Possesed seem pretty interesting? Haven't read Alpha Legion yet though.
Marshal Loss wrote: Yeah GW not fixing them in F&F is a real travesty frankly. I'd hope for them to be changed in CA19 but have 0 faith that GW will do it
I'd rather fix them in a FAQ or CA rather then F&F simply because IMHO F&F should be, at least on paper, an optional supplement not essentially a book required to get s CSM patch
Marshal Loss wrote: Yeah GW not fixing them in F&F is a real travesty frankly. I'd hope for them to be changed in CA19 but have 0 faith that GW will do it
I'd rather fix them in a FAQ or CA rather then F&F simply because IMHO F&F should be, at least on paper, an optional supplement not essentially a book required to get s CSM patch
Based on what I'm reading it is definitely mandatory.
I think we'll have to accept that marines are the power outlier and that GW needs to bring them down rather than everyone else up.
Marshal Loss wrote: Yeah GW not fixing them in F&F is a real travesty frankly. I'd hope for them to be changed in CA19 but have 0 faith that GW will do it
I'd rather fix them in a FAQ or CA rather then F&F simply because IMHO F&F should be, at least on paper, an optional supplement not essentially a book required to get s CSM patch
On paper/in theory you're right but in practice this book is a borderline mandatory purchase. I would rather buy a supplement now that has legion traits/warlord traits/relics/stratagems in it, and then buy a yearly CA on top of that for points changes
They're universally regarded as gak, except for the Alpha Legion trait, which is the only trait we have which is superior to some of the our counterparts. The Word Bearers trait is the only trait in the game which can (and will) hurt you more than it benefits you.
If you're here to play an RPG, you might be able to jump through enough hoops to pretend these are '''fun''' (whatever that means, I can't say losing a majority of games before my models each get on the board is fun, but to each his own!) or 'flavourful' (when most if not all do not reflect the Legions fluff in any manner beyond the WE and maybe Night Lords one), but if you've actually played the game you'll recognise most of these are worthless.
Even the World Eaters one annoys me. The 'everyone in the chapter is 100% melee-crazed axe murderers all the time' just isn't functional. Khorne doesn't object to ranged killing or smart killing. He just wants blood and gobbets of flesh everywhere.
So the 'Axes Axes Axes' angle makes me pause whenever I think about making a WE force. Because at some point a World Eaters solo book may actually happen and strip out over half the codex from their options. Which would be beyond infuriating, but given TS and DG, it seems a perfectly legitimate concern.
They're universally regarded as gak, except for the Alpha Legion trait, which is the only trait we have which is superior to some of the our counterparts. The Word Bearers trait is the only trait in the game which can (and will) hurt you more than it benefits you.
If you're here to play an RPG, you might be able to jump through enough hoops to pretend these are '''fun''' (whatever that means, I can't say losing a majority of games before my models each get on the board is fun, but to each his own!) or 'flavourful' (when most if not all do not reflect the Legions fluff in any manner beyond the WE and maybe Night Lords one), but if you've actually played the game you'll recognise most of these are worthless.
Even the World Eaters one annoys me. The 'everyone in the chapter is 100% melee-crazed axe murderers all the time' just isn't functional. Khorne doesn't object to ranged killing or smart killing. He just wants blood and gobbets of flesh everywhere.
So the 'Axes Axes Axes' angle makes me pause whenever I think about making a WE force. Because at some point a World Eaters solo book may actually happen and strip out over half the codex from their options. Which would be beyond infuriating, but given TS and DG, it seems a perfectly legitimate concern.
WE was never going to get a stratagem, trait, or relic that increased shooting ability. No buffs to shooting =/= shooting isn't used.
Even the World Eaters one annoys me. The 'everyone in the chapter is 100% melee-crazed axe murderers all the time' just isn't functional. Khorne doesn't object to ranged killing or smart killing. He just wants blood and gobbets of flesh everywhere.
So the 'Axes Axes Axes' angle makes me pause whenever I think about making a WE force. Because at some point a World Eaters solo book may actually happen and strip out over half the codex from their options. Which would be beyond infuriating, but given TS and DG, it seems a perfectly legitimate concern.
When Death Guard received their own codes, it was hard to ignore the obvious. That is, until the codex, bikers and Obliterators were the cornerstone of any Death Guard army. And, guess what got removed completely?
Definitely agree on the World Eaters, because I have an army of them, and I expect one of these days they’ll get a codex and it will consist of Kharn and the unit entry for a new Berzerker kit that will cost $40 for five. (comes with two chain axes and ten chain swords, so the unit can have a maximum of two axes to comply with the kit)
bikes may have been a compeitive cornerstone but the fluff was clear that deathguard where INFANTRY focused. losing things like havoks and oblits was a bit sad yeah but bikes being removed made sense from a fluff standpoint
Even the World Eaters one annoys me. The 'everyone in the chapter is 100% melee-crazed axe murderers all the time' just isn't functional. Khorne doesn't object to ranged killing or smart killing. He just wants blood and gobbets of flesh everywhere.
So the 'Axes Axes Axes' angle makes me pause whenever I think about making a WE force. Because at some point a World Eaters solo book may actually happen and strip out over half the codex from their options. Which would be beyond infuriating, but given TS and DG, it seems a perfectly legitimate concern.
When Death Guard received their own codes, it was hard to ignore the obvious. That is, until the codex, bikers and Obliterators were the cornerstone of any Death Guard army. And, guess what got removed completely?
Definitely agree on the World Eaters, because I have an army of them, and I expect one of these days they’ll get a codex and it will consist of Kharn and the unit entry for a new Berzerker kit that will cost $40 for five. (comes with two chain axes and ten chain swords, so the unit can have a maximum of two axes to comply with the kit)
I am guessing World Eaters' Khorne Bezerkers will be boxed as 8, as Death Guard's number is 7 and they receive 7 in a box, Thousand Sons' number is 9 and they receive 9 in a box. Safe to assume that Emperor's Children will receive 6 Noise Marines. Price wise, I think we will be looking at $60 USD for each box.
BrianDavion wrote: bikes may have been a compeitive cornerstone but the fluff was clear that deathguard where INFANTRY focused. losing things like havoks and oblits was a bit sad yeah but bikes being removed made sense from a fluff standpoint
Is there any fluff that say they do not use or have Bikes ? Its cool to say they are Infantry focus. But Bikes would play into that as a Form of Fast Infantry. Seems more a bit of an excuse than any really Fluff to me. Unless the deathguard are to slow for them, but i have not really seen any fluff that really supports that.
I am guessing World Eaters' Khorne Bezerkers will be boxed as 8, as Death Guard's number is 7 and they receive 7 in a box, Thousand Sons' number is 9 and they receive 9 in a box. Safe to assume that Emperor's Children will receive 6 Noise Marines. Price wise, I think we will be looking at $60 USD for each box.
I am guessing World Eaters' Khorne Bezerkers will be boxed as 8, as Death Guard's number is 7 and they receive 7 in a box, Thousand Sons' number is 9 and they receive 9 in a box. Safe to assume that Emperor's Children will receive 6 Noise Marines. Price wise, I think we will be looking at $60 USD for each box.
Rubrics are 10 to a box.
My mistake. Tzeentch's number is 9, but since they are Rubric Marines (i.e. no autonomy), they must have an Aspiring Sorcerer to guide them, which would make 10.
BrianDavion wrote: bikes may have been a compeitive cornerstone but the fluff was clear that deathguard where INFANTRY focused. losing things like havoks and oblits was a bit sad yeah but bikes being removed made sense from a fluff standpoint
Is there any fluff that say they do not use or have Bikes ? Its cool to say they are Infantry focus. But Bikes would play into that as a Form of Fast Infantry. Seems more a bit of an excuse than any really Fluff to me. Unless the deathguard are to slow for them, but i have not really seen any fluff that really supports that.
From a game design viewpoint too I think deathguard are supposed to be the slow and steady mid range durable infantry boys and too much or too fast fast attack would go against this. The problem is modern gw this rulesets dont particularly do much for different play styles of factions and that they are massively stepping on necron toes even if they did.
A big issue and one that's seemingly been an issue for 20 years now is that GW doesn't want to have Chaos just be "marines with spikes" but don't seem to have any idea how to make them feel unique without either making Chaos the "soup" army (which at least makes *some* sense, horrible as it is) or pissing on the idea of playing mono-Legion despite the majority of books about Chaos focusing on what are essentially mono-Legion warbands and not a hodgepodge of various groups. Chaos players, perhaps more than any other except maybe Loyalist Marines, *want* to identify with a specific legion or warband, and not have to mix and match or counts-as for power reasons. A Word Bearers player, for example, wants to play Word Bearers because they like the background/fluff and not want to have to do shenanigans to make them work on the battlefield by using various legion rules or whatever.
They've never been able to think of a good way to do this so we constantly see them drop the ball on Chaos and we get lackluster or phoned-in stuff that quickly becomes overshadowed. There's also the issue that GW no longer seems to have anyone on the design team that's actually passionate about Chaos in the sense that years ago we had guys like Andy Chambers and Pete Haines who played Chaos as a primary army so had a vested interest in them being written well. Most of the team now, while I'm sure they have at least one army for nearly all the factions, all seem like Imperium and Xenos players from the bits that have been shown over the years so probably are not really that interested in Chaos which makes it harder for them to write rules that are interesting.
The best explanation for this is that somebody in the rules design studio hates CSM. I cannot come up with any other reason why GW would kneecap their model sales like this. I wonder how many of the new kits got stuck in the shelf because there is no good rules support for them.
Alkaline_Hound wrote: The best explanation for this is that somebody in the rules design studio hates CSM. I cannot come up with any other reason why GW would kneecap their model sales like this. I wonder how many of the new kits got stuck in the shelf because there is no good rules support for them.
Never attribute to malice what would be equally explainable by incompetence.
Legion traits aren't the be all and end all. There's the units, stratergems, psychic powers, WL traits, relics and weapons to consider. The reason that space marines got such a big boost is because they were only on a 40% winrate at tournaments and that was mainly because of guiliman. CSM have been hovering around the 50% mark forever because they had better stratergems and psychic powers.
Now it's been flipped on it's head so CSM are around 43% and space marines are 55% winrate. Because SM are the perfect counter to csm.
Now that the new rules are coming out from psychic awakening and CA 2019 around the corner they will be back in balance soon. No need to change the legion traits.
small_gods wrote: Legion traits aren't the be all and end all. There's the units, stratergems, psychic powers, WL traits, relics and weapons to consider. The reason that space marines got such a big boost is because they were only on a 40% winrate at tournaments and that was mainly because of guiliman. CSM have been hovering around the 50% mark forever because they had better stratergems and psychic powers.
Now it's been flipped on it's head so CSM are around 43% and space marines are 55% winrate. Because SM are the perfect counter to csm.
Now that the new rules are coming out from psychic awakening and CA 2019 around the corner they will be back in balance soon. No need to change the legion traits.
small_gods wrote: Legion traits aren't the be all and end all. There's the units, stratergems, psychic powers, WL traits, relics and weapons to consider. The reason that space marines got such a big boost is because they were only on a 40% winrate at tournaments and that was mainly because of guiliman. CSM have been hovering around the 50% mark forever because they had better stratergems and psychic powers.
Now it's been flipped on it's head so CSM are around 43% and space marines are 55% winrate. Because SM are the perfect counter to csm.
Now that the new rules are coming out from psychic awakening and CA 2019 around the corner they will be back in balance soon. No need to change the legion traits.
Tournament results Are skewed due to soup though.
This is true but up until the SM suppliments they had the most reason and ability to soup. Every SM list had at least one knight, loyal 32, BA smash captains or Custodes Jetbikes.
Hopefully with more options for a single legion, they'll be more incentive not to soup.
As much as I hate it, I don't care if tournaments dont have mono factions. Mostly because they have their own skew where you ignore 90% of the game anyways to focus on the "best" 10%.
But for everything else, you should be able to not have to soup it up to be any good.
Wayniac wrote: As much as I hate it, I don't care if tournaments dont have mono factions. Mostly because they have their own skew where you ignore 90% of the game anyways to focus on the "best" 10%.
But for everything else, you should be able to not have to soup it up to be any good.
Exactly. It's not just the fact that sm are so strong that's driving players of other factions crazy. It's also that the new sm rules allow the different chapters to play like they should and still be good.
Faith and fury showed that gw CAN make the legions feel the way they should. As a night lords player I can say they nailed the legion pretty well. They just stopped short of going all the way by fixing the traits.
Why? I'm guessing to sell more rules at a later date. Adding to the already large collection csm players need to play.
small_gods wrote: Legion traits aren't the be all and end all. There's the units, stratergems, psychic powers, WL traits, relics and weapons to consider. The reason that space marines got such a big boost is because they were only on a 40% winrate at tournaments and that was mainly because of guiliman. CSM have been hovering around the 50% mark forever because they had better stratergems and psychic powers.
Now it's been flipped on it's head so CSM are around 43% and space marines are 55% winrate. Because SM are the perfect counter to csm.
Now that the new rules are coming out from psychic awakening and CA 2019 around the corner they will be back in balance soon. No need to change the legion traits.
Traits and consequently Doctrines are kinda important unlike how you want to think because GW decided to take the lazy route and make CSM the dark mirror equivalent for another army.
Wayniac wrote: A big issue and one that's seemingly been an issue for 20 years now is that GW doesn't want to have Chaos just be "marines with spikes" but don't seem to have any idea how to make them feel unique without either making Chaos the "soup" army (which at least makes *some* sense, horrible as it is) or pissing on the idea of playing mono-Legion despite the majority of books about Chaos focusing on what are essentially mono-Legion warbands and not a hodgepodge of various groups. Chaos players, perhaps more than any other except maybe Loyalist Marines, *want* to identify with a specific legion or warband, and not have to mix and match or counts-as for power reasons. A Word Bearers player, for example, wants to play Word Bearers because they like the background/fluff and not want to have to do shenanigans to make them work on the battlefield by using various legion rules or whatever.
They've never been able to think of a good way to do this so we constantly see them drop the ball on Chaos and we get lackluster or phoned-in stuff that quickly becomes overshadowed. There's also the issue that GW no longer seems to have anyone on the design team that's actually passionate about Chaos in the sense that years ago we had guys like Andy Chambers and Pete Haines who played Chaos as a primary army so had a vested interest in them being written well. Most of the team now, while I'm sure they have at least one army for nearly all the factions, all seem like Imperium and Xenos players from the bits that have been shown over the years so probably are not really that interested in Chaos which makes it harder for them to write rules that are interesting.
I endorse this post wholeheartedly.
Where did the creativity of 3.5 CSM go?
As I have mentioned elsewhere, if memory serves me right, GW don't want CSM to be top tier as it would undermine potential Primaris / Loyalist sales.
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote: As I have mentioned elsewhere, if memory serves me right, GW don't want CSM to be top tier as it would undermine potential Primaris / Loyalist sales.
How does that fit into Primaris not being very competitive in the past?
What difference does it make for a shareholder wether a Chaos box for 30€ gets sold or a Primaris one for 30€?
As a response, the Iron Warrior trait is nowhere near as bad as people make out. Ignoring cover is a big deal. Granted, IF get that +1, but it's still a decent trait overall (compared to some of the others). Haven't looked at what they got in F+F yet, but I hear positive remarks. Space Marine level, heck no, but hopefully some good synergies.
small_gods wrote: Legion traits aren't the be all and end all. There's the units, stratergems, psychic powers, WL traits, relics and weapons to consider. The reason that space marines got such a big boost is because they were only on a 40% winrate at tournaments and that was mainly because of guiliman. CSM have been hovering around the 50% mark forever because they had better stratergems and psychic powers.
Now it's been flipped on it's head so CSM are around 43% and space marines are 55% winrate. Because SM are the perfect counter to csm.
Now that the new rules are coming out from psychic awakening and CA 2019 around the corner they will be back in balance soon. No need to change the legion traits.
Traits and consequently Doctrines are kinda important unlike how you want to think because GW decided to take the lazy route and make CSM the dark mirror equivalent for another army.
It feels like you're arguing against yourself here..? CSM don't get doctrines but they should. Also they are too like space marines.
I think they're pretty different from each other. For a start SM don't have anything like daemon engines, bezerkers, oblitorators or cultists. They also don't have the option to take marks (which means they can't double shoot, except thunder fires, and can't double fight, except blood angels).
They currently have better rules but have had worse rules for 3 years so seems like a year or two with the scales tipped isn't out of order.
Daedalus81 wrote: That's not really how that works. Berzerkers are currently 12 to a box. PM were the only unit to get a box tied to its sacred number.
I agree, the numbers don't add up with the Khorne Bezerkers, but then again the box is ancient.
small_gods wrote: Legion traits aren't the be all and end all. There's the units, stratergems, psychic powers, WL traits, relics and weapons to consider. The reason that space marines got such a big boost is because they were only on a 40% winrate at tournaments and that was mainly because of guiliman. CSM have been hovering around the 50% mark forever because they had better stratergems and psychic powers.
Now it's been flipped on it's head so CSM are around 43% and space marines are 55% winrate. Because SM are the perfect counter to csm.
Now that the new rules are coming out from psychic awakening and CA 2019 around the corner they will be back in balance soon. No need to change the legion traits.
Tournament results Are skewed due to soup though.
This is true but up until the SM suppliments they had the most reason and ability to soup. Every SM list had at least one knight, loyal 32, BA smash captains or Custodes Jetbikes.
Hopefully with more options for a single legion, they'll be more incentive not to soup.
True however Chaos as a whole did so aswell, and there were only 3 types of csm units that Show up.
As a response, the Iron Warrior trait is nowhere near as bad as people make out. Ignoring cover is a big deal. Granted, IF get that +1, but it's still a decent trait overall (compared to some of the others). Haven't looked at what they got in F+F yet, but I hear positive remarks. Space Marine level, heck no, but hopefully some good synergies.
Hiding in The Rock...
All kidding aside, as I said before, I don't play CSM and I give much more attention to the core rules and Space Marines and their subsequent foundings. I totally agree with you that Iron Warriors have a decent, if not good trait, just like the Imperial Fists. There are just some things that irk me and make me think "why do X only get this when Y get something better?" when they are supposed to be equivalents.
small_gods wrote: Legion traits aren't the be all and end all. There's the units, stratergems, psychic powers, WL traits, relics and weapons to consider. The reason that space marines got such a big boost is because they were only on a 40% winrate at tournaments and that was mainly because of guiliman. CSM have been hovering around the 50% mark forever because they had better stratergems and psychic powers.
Now it's been flipped on it's head so CSM are around 43% and space marines are 55% winrate. Because SM are the perfect counter to csm.
Now that the new rules are coming out from psychic awakening and CA 2019 around the corner they will be back in balance soon. No need to change the legion traits.
Traits and consequently Doctrines are kinda important unlike how you want to think because GW decided to take the lazy route and make CSM the dark mirror equivalent for another army.
It feels like you're arguing against yourself here..? CSM don't get doctrines but they should. Also they are too like space marines.
I think they're pretty different from each other. For a start SM don't have anything like daemon engines, bezerkers, oblitorators or cultists. They also don't have the option to take marks (which means they can't double shoot, except thunder fires, and can't double fight, except blood angels).
They currently have better rules but have had worse rules for 3 years so seems like a year or two with the scales tipped isn't out of order.
No legions shouldn't have doctrines as the legions all behave differently from one another and their rules should reflect that.
They should have multi-rule legion traits that bring them up to parity with the loyalists while reflecting that.
Gw understands how to make rules that reflect the legions individual fighting styles. Faith and fury proved that.
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote: As I have mentioned elsewhere, if memory serves me right, GW don't want CSM to be top tier as it would undermine potential Primaris / Loyalist sales.
How does that fit into Primaris not being very competitive in the past?
What difference does it make for a shareholder wether a Chaos box for 30€ gets sold or a Primaris one for 30€?
Genuine questions
At the end of the day it boils down to who wants to play the underdog.
Yes, CSM got some new models recently - great stuff - but when GW are sinking far more time and investment into a new product line from the ground up which do you think they want to succeed more?
Investment vs return.
In order to shift the new hotness it is way easier just to give flavour of the day egregiously good rules e.g. Iron Hands. Compare that to what CSM are allegedly getting in PA2 or Eldar in PA1.
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote: As I have mentioned elsewhere, if memory serves me right, GW don't want CSM to be top tier as it would undermine potential Primaris / Loyalist sales.
How does that fit into Primaris not being very competitive in the past?
What difference does it make for a shareholder wether a Chaos box for 30€ gets sold or a Primaris one for 30€?
Genuine questions
At the end of the day it boils down to who wants to play the underdog.
Yes, CSM got some new models recently - great stuff - but when GW are sinking far more time and investment into a new product line from the ground up which do you think they want to succeed more?
Investment vs return.
In order to shift the new hotness it is way easier just to give flavour of the day egregiously good rules e.g. Iron Hands. Compare that to what CSM are allegedly getting in PA2 or Eldar in PA1.
So, they want to put more into an entirely new line as opposed to something like GSC?
Considering the most popular models are centurions and TFCs do you think GW has been successful in pushing this new line?
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote: In order to shift the new hotness it is way easier just to give flavour of the day egregiously good rules e.g. Iron Hands. Compare that to what CSM are allegedly getting in PA2 or Eldar in PA1.
Truth.
Don't ever forget the #1 priority of a corporation, it's to make profit for their shareholders. And players do respond well to flashy new rules, whether they're balanced or not.
I do understand your logic, but I don't feel that GW is following that line of thinking.
None of the recently released Marine kits got super strong rules with exception of Eliminators and that Iron Hands character (which has been regulated shortly after). Personally, I think the Invictor Warsuits are strong as well, but it felt like less of a problem within the community.
The new Eldar kits have new and improved(?) rules, but don't seem to be strong enough for competitive play.
The new sorcerer for CSM is okay as well, I guess. Didn't have the impression of it getting competitive rules, either.
The C:SM book buffed a lot of older kits directly and indirectly.
People saying GW doesn't care for Chaos legions must have missed the last 3 years since Traitor Legions. Up until SM 2.0 CSM were the stronger choice. And up until Vigilus Renegades were an afterthought in 8th Edition - and they still are. Legions are the focus. They also must have missed the update to most Chaos kits and two completely new Legion lines with Thousand Sons and DG.
And the people who want 3.5 back seem to ignore that we have a different Edition today. 3.5 forced every Legion into a monobuild while at the same time having not even half the choices CSM have today. Yes, it was a nice book, it was basically the current SM Codex + all supplements combined in 1 book, however, compared to today the unitchoice was very limited.
GW just needs to update the Legion rules and make them useful for vehicles, too, that is all. Give us a World Eaters and Emperor's children later
A Town Called Malus wrote: You're assuming that the GW rules team are competent and understand how their own game plays.
I'm sure they do, but they're ultimately not those with final responsibility on what rules get released.
The Wraithknights... well, that was a thing. The Eldar codex was designed at a time when we were told to make things a) exciting and interesting and b) reflect the narrative at all costs. So D-weapons, right? Because that's clearly what the weapons are. So we did it, and we tested them loads, and the points values shot up (I think the Wraithknight was about 450?). Then they went to review, and someone in a position of authority (who has since left) said "I love it, but don't increase any points values."
Because, obviously, that means people need fewer models, see?
So I said "Ok, so I'll put the rules back to how they were," and was told "no, keep them, just don't change the points values".
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote: In order to shift the new hotness it is way easier just to give flavour of the day egregiously good rules e.g. Iron Hands. Compare that to what CSM are allegedly getting in PA2 or Eldar in PA1.
Truth.
Don't ever forget the #1 priority of a corporation, it's to make profit for their shareholders. And players do respond well to flashy new rules, whether they're balanced or not.
Multiple companies have proven that a balanced ruleset is much more likely to generate profits in the long term, while badly balance games tend to frustrate their customers and eventually drive them out.
I am guessing World Eaters' Khorne Bezerkers will be boxed as 8, as Death Guard's number is 7 and they receive 7 in a box, Thousand Sons' number is 9 and they receive 9 in a box. Safe to assume that Emperor's Children will receive 6 Noise Marines. Price wise, I think we will be looking at $60 USD for each box.
Rubrics are 10 to a box.
My mistake. Tzeentch's number is 9, but since they are Rubric Marines (i.e. no autonomy), they must have an Aspiring Sorcerer to guide them, which would make 10.
I mean, sure, but there are parts in the box to make them all rubric marines. The sorc is optional. It is a 10-man box of rubric marines, no way around it.
Considering the most popular models are centurions and TFCs do you think GW has been successful in pushing this new line?
You're assuming that the GW rules team are competent and understand how their own game plays.
GW might genuinely be trying to make their new models awesome rules-wise but lack the competency to do so except by luck.
If GW is not competent are not writing rules, and are also not competent at targeting rules at kits they just recently produced then isn't the more likely scenario just that they were trying to make fun rules and wound up overdoing it rather than making complicated leaps of logic?
Yes, I understand the guy on reddit said they wrote rules to sell models. He also said they were "aiming for exciting" and that "those days are over".
Let's look at 8th. Which mono codexes were as strong as marines are now and absolutely dominated the scene without soup? Not a lot, right? The mono armies early on very quickly took point hits, flyer restrictions, and rule of 3. When we got to soup issues (Ynnari and Castellans) it took longer.
Have the changes GW made been in the right direction? In other words was there a CA or beta rule that made you say "this will break the game"?
Was nerfing the Executioner before the supplements were out (people freaked the eff out on this) or IH with the strongest set of 2 week nerfs yet in the wrong direction?
You'll also notice that the IF 2 week FAQ is quite late like IH was.
Given the weight of the evidence which is more likely? GW was malicious or GW screwed up?
I believe it is in GWs best interest to aim for the best level of attainable balance, because it is good for the game and, ultimately, good for sales.
And if someone's only response to this is "hurry durr white knight" you can move right along.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: It's amazing how willing people are to discard Hanlon's Razor. "Never attribute to malice what could be adequately explained by incompetence."
To be fair they DO want to sell models, but GW is able to do that even without rules (e.g. Sisters).
Some people just don't accept that GW proritizes their rules towards what they judge as interesting and expressive to depict the 40k universe, not towards tournaments and competition.
Yoyoyo wrote: Some people just don't accept that GW proritizes their rules towards what they judge as interesting and expressive to depict the 40k universe, not towards tournaments and competition.
Removed - Rule #1 please
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daedalus81 wrote: If GW is not competent are not writing rules, and are also not competent at targeting rules at kits they just recently produced then isn't the more likely scenario just that they were trying to make fun rules and wound up overdoing it rather than making complicated leaps of logic?
Cool, explain how Methodical Annihilation works then? I mean, if they're competent rules writers who read and care about what goes into their product, that rule should be easy to interpret.
I have not been 100% through this topic but I wanted to add my own take on this after a game last night.
I played my dad who was running Imperial Fist with my Word Bearers, he was using the supplement with one of the new formations. So his basic troops were rocking a Heavy 1 30" S4 AP-3 D3 ignoring cover with a tohit roll of 6 counting as two hits (Targeting vehicles and monsters to be clear.) This is not taking into account the reroll auras from his characters to both tohit and towound. This also doesn't take into account everything else his army was rocking, just his basic intercessors.
I was running the new Faith and Fury rules for my Words Bearers and I got a Dark Apostle that could chant two whole prayers a turn, an aura that gives deamons +1 attack and an artifact that gave +1LD and rerolls to prayer rolls.
My chapter tactic gave me reroll moral checks, his chapter tactic gives ignores cover and any tohit of 6 with a bolter weapon counts as two hits. I can't believe how many special bolters space marines now have that make this ability insane.
I can not believe how much better Centurion Devastators were than my Obliterators for almost half the price when you consider all of these bonuses.
The worst part of all of this is that there have been two opportunities to address this with the joke called "Chaos Space Marines 2.0" and Faith and Fury that just adds a small amount of flavor. Should CSM be as OP as current loyalist? No, but this disparity is showing how new GW is just like old GW. 8th is turning into 7th all over again.
Stalker Bolt Rifles are bananas on a basic troop -- but I don't have the impression that CSM will be able to outshoot SM, especially the IF or IH flavors.
Word Bearers should have a lot of Daemons, maybe the key is to get to a 4++ and punish Intercessors who sacrificed volume of fire for those AP3 D3 shots?
Daedalus81 wrote: I'm just getting caught up, but WB Possesed seem pretty interesting? Haven't read Alpha Legion yet though.
Except you're playing WB. Also, you still don't have any consistent way to deliver any significant number of them. About half the time the main thrust of your army is going to get gunned down before it even gets across the field to do anything.
The only legions that are worth considering from F&F are Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and maybe Emperor's Children (although I still think this is just going to be a fluffy choice).
What this really did was shore up a few Legions as CP battery detachments. I can throw 2 Battalions of crappy AL cultists and cheap characters in with some Chaos Knights, give them some nice tricks and decent screening against deep strike along with an extra 10 CP.
Iron Warriors daemon engine lists got improved, so there might be something there, but nothing that's not going to wither under SM firepower.
Emperor's Children got some cool stuff and some of their characters became pretty good murderbots, but it's a glorious death, not a path to victory.
This did nothing for rank and file CSM units, which are still garbage.
TwinPoleTheory wrote:Cool, explain how Methodical Annihilation works then? I mean, if they're competent rules writers who read and care about what goes into their product, that rule should be easy to interpret.
I think you misread his statement here. He does say GW is not good at rules writing. The wording is weird and I think RAW it does not work. RAI seems to be for me that you can re-roll any variable characteristic of the weapon your model is shooting with. Amount of shots, amount of damage and so on.
Possessed will come in T2 if they're walking so they're more of the right cross that will arrive after the jab.
Ashen Axe is top-tier, if you can trap a unit with the Lord any unit that joins that combat can't be shot at. Ideally you're locking up something like 300pts of Lascannon DevCents but even if you sneak a single Possessed squad into combat with a screening unit, it stops the enemy from targeting the rest of the squad.
Yoyoyo wrote: Possessed will come in T2 if they're walking so they're more of the right cross that will arrive after the jab.
Ashen Axe is top-tier, if you can trap a unit with the Lord any unit that joins that combat can't be shot at. Ideally you're locking up something like 300pts of Lascannon DevCents but even if you sneak a single Possessed squad into combat with a screening unit, it stops the enemy from targeting the rest of the squad.
I'd say you should test this and report back, but since you won't be doing so competitively the data would be useless.
You're still talking about trapping units with a single Chaos Lord, it's a glorious death, not a path to victory.
Again, your T2 Possessed even getting to engage is a coin flip at best.
So, no, it's at best a huge gamble list where the biggest threats are either easily ignored or eliminated before they become a threat.
Daedalus81 wrote: I'm just getting caught up, but WB Possesed seem pretty interesting? Haven't read Alpha Legion yet though.
Except you're playing WB. Also, you still don't have any consistent way to deliver any significant number of them. About half the time the main thrust of your army is going to get gunned down before it even gets across the field to do anything.
The only legions that are worth considering from F&F are Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and maybe Emperor's Children (although I still think this is just going to be a fluffy choice).
What this really did was shore up a few Legions as CP battery detachments. I can throw 2 Battalions of crappy AL cultists and cheap characters in with some Chaos Knights, give them some nice tricks and decent screening against deep strike along with an extra 10 CP.
Iron Warriors daemon engine lists got improved, so there might be something there, but nothing that's not going to wither under SM firepower.
Emperor's Children got some cool stuff and some of their characters became pretty good murderbots, but it's a glorious death, not a path to victory.
This did nothing for rank and file CSM units, which are still garbage.
World Eaters have some good Lord loadouts. Gorefather is a monster of a weapon at least, right?
Otherwise, meh. Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors are still on top.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: World Eaters have some good Lord loadouts. Gorefather is a monster of a weapon at least, right?
I've always enjoyed your fatalistic sense of humor Slayer.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Otherwise, meh. Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors are still on top.
Agreed. An AL battalion at slightly under 300 points, you can slot in 2 of them with a full super-heavy detachment of Chaos Knights and be rolling with 19 CP for them. Probably spend a CP to put Hydra's Wail on one of your cheapo HQ, use Scrambled Coordinates to protect them from deep strike, Renascent Infiltration to reposition to Cultists squads to objectives while knights run around doing the heavy lifting. It's not a noble job for the mighty Alpha Legion, but sometimes you have to work the fry cooker to pay the bills, right?
IW is a big maybe. LD and LoS partnership got better, for sure. Maybe that can be parleyed into something competitive, but it's nothing that's actually going to hold up under Executioner fire.
If I want to avoid enemy fire, the two best places are either locked in combat or out of LOS. Maybe I don't comprehend the depths of your tactical creativity or genius, but you can agree on that much, right?
TwinPoleTheory wrote:Cool, explain how Methodical Annihilation works then? I mean, if they're competent rules writers who read and care about what goes into their product, that rule should be easy to interpret.
I think you misread his statement here. He does say GW is not good at rules writing. The wording is weird and I think RAW it does not work. RAI seems to be for me that you can re-roll any variable characteristic of the weapon your model is shooting with. Amount of shots, amount of damage and so on.
Right, I think that GW just screws up a lot mostly linked to how absurd the release schedule is.
There are just too many effin' books and there is no way they're testing it all properly or being given the time to do a good job.
Considering the price of the books.
It's a shamefull display and i am for one, sick off it.
It's a big reason I'm making tools to deal with it. People cant possibly keep up with the rules - especially if they cant afford books that dont affect them.
Considering the price of the books.
It's a shamefull display and i am for one, sick off it.
It's a big reason I'm making tools to deal with it. People cant possibly keep up with the rules - especially if they cant afford books that dont affect them.
PM me if you have a competently laid out info board for all the fething Chaos warlord traits and stratagems, AT THIS POINT I NEED A fething MAP to understand WHAT I AM ALLOWED TO PICK AND HOW TO BUILD A SOMEWHAT COMPETENT ARMY:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: World Eaters have some good Lord loadouts. Gorefather is a monster of a weapon at least, right?
I've always enjoyed your fatalistic sense of humor Slayer.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Otherwise, meh. Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors are still on top.
Agreed. An AL battalion at slightly under 300 points, you can slot in 2 of them with a full super-heavy detachment of Chaos Knights and be rolling with 19 CP for them. Probably spend a CP to put Hydra's Wail on one of your cheapo HQ, use Scrambled Coordinates to protect them from deep strike, Renascent Infiltration to reposition to Cultists squads to objectives while knights run around doing the heavy lifting. It's not a noble job for the mighty Alpha Legion, but sometimes you have to work the fry cooker to pay the bills, right?
IW is a big maybe. LD and LoS partnership got better, for sure. Maybe that can be parleyed into something competitive, but it's nothing that's actually going to hold up under Executioner fire.
It was a half joke. I think there's a merit to VotLW and charging in with Gorefather to get 3MW on every 5+ done, but there are likely better suicide Missile Lord loadouts.
And Iron Warriors getting a Lt. aura is pretty good for gunline especially if you're gunning to use a Scorpius or three.
Considering the price of the books.
It's a shamefull display and i am for one, sick off it.
It's a big reason I'm making tools to deal with it. People cant possibly keep up with the rules - especially if they cant afford books that dont affect them.
PM me if you have a competently laid out info board for all the fething Chaos warlord traits and stratagems, AT THIS POINT I NEED A fething MAP to understand WHAT I AM ALLOWED TO PICK AND HOW TO BUILD A SOMEWHAT COMPETENT ARMY:
10 FETHING rules RELEASES. 10.
Sanity is for the weak?
Seriously, though, my head hurts. Perhaps somebody can mock up a nice conspiracy yarn board with all the CSM rules stuff. Would hands-down beat the crap memes they posted on warcom.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It was a half joke. I think there's a merit to VotLW and charging in with Gorefather to get 3MW on every 5+ done, but there are likely better suicide Missile Lord loadouts.
And Iron Warriors getting a Lt. aura is pretty good for gunline especially if you're gunning to use a Scorpius or three.
I'm sure, I'm just not big on the suicide lord these days, what it actually accomplishes is pretty questionable.
Yeah, it's amazing, no doubt, totally something IW needed last year. Unfortunately, now, all the RG players will appreciate that IW players have loaded more eggs into a single, easily assassinated basket. So, it is legitimately good most of the time, until that one time when it dies in the first turn or two, no matter where or how you deploy it on the field.
Daedalus81 wrote: there is no way they're testing it all properly or being given the time to do a good job.
Actually evidence suggests they don't like the results of testing and ignore it regularly. However, the result is the same.
This, too. It's terrible culture and they need to feel the pain.
Considering the price of the books.
It's a shamefull display and i am for one, sick off it.
It's shovelware being churned out before 9th hits and makes them all irrelevant anyway.
Besides, why should GW employ and fund a salary for balance testers? They have more than enough whales/'Nerd OCD' that will happily lap up absolutely anything and everything they produce.
Arbitrator wrote: It's shovelware being churned out before 9th hits and makes them all irrelevant anyway.
Besides, why should GW employ and fund a salary for balance testers? They have more than enough whales/'Nerd OCD' that will happily lap up absolutely anything and everything they produce.
Sadly this. They've made record-setting profits DESPITE this. Why do they need to fix anything anymore? 8th edition is almost as bad bloat as 7th was, and the fanbase just doesn't care. They ate it up like the second coming of Christ and skyrocketed GW's success like never before. GW learned that the majority of players don't care what they do so why would they take any steps to improve?
Wayniac wrote: Sadly this. They've made record-setting profits DESPITE this. Why do they need to fix anything anymore? 8th edition is almost as bad bloat as 7th was, and the fanbase just doesn't care. They ate it up like the second coming of Christ and skyrocketed GW's success like never before. GW learned that the majority of players like what they are doing
Yoyoyo wrote: Stalker Bolt Rifles are bananas on a basic troop -- but I don't have the impression that CSM will be able to outshoot SM, especially the IF or IH flavors.
Word Bearers should have a lot of Daemons, maybe the key is to get to a 4++ and punish Intercessors who sacrificed volume of fire for those AP3 D3 shots?
So your solution to my issue is to just stop playing the army I am playing?
I take daemon allies if I have the points to do so. My issue is that playing at 1000 points I just did not have the points to add in an allied detachment of Chaos Daemons.
I am not asking to be able to out shoot Space Marines, even though why not? Why should CSM not be allowed to shoot? Why should my Obliterators that cost over 100 points a piece not be able to out shoot a 70 point SM unit? Plus, even if I try to punish him by taking Daemons to fish for a 5++ his Intercessors were not the issue for my troops. But the Centurions shooting at me with 6 S5 AP-1 and 12 S4 shoots PER Centurion with the IF chapter tactic they get two hits per 6 rolled sure do tear apart any of my daemon units in no time.
So at 465 points he has more than enough to take care of any one vehicle and at least one squad of infantry a turn which I have no response for. He removed over 50% of my points in the first turn before I even got to attack once, the next turn I was down to 7 cultist, a greater possessed and a Dark Apostle. Turn two the only unit I was able to charge with the possessed I had left was the Centurions, which eliminated the possessed on over watch.
The issue is more than the fact that my reroll morale checks sucks, because it does suck spectacularly, the issue is that even after receiving a 2.0 codex as well as "updates" in a supplement CSM are so far behind that I don't think that GW even has an interest in making them better. They had two chances to throw a bone and both times have landed like a wet turd.
Just look at how IF, RG, Salamanders and IH have been treated as opposed to Thousand Sons and Death Guard. Loyalist get the entire range of the codex with a bunch of special rules piled on top while Heretics get a heavily trimmed options with no stacking rules in return for a handful of unique units. Hell Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Blood Angels are in the same boat as Heretics. Stacking more and more modifiers is just multiplying the power level as opposed to a different set of unique rules.
I'm not saying it's fair man, I'm just looking at how to beat them. How you plan to tackle Stalker Intercessors (1 shot each) is going to be a lot different than how you tackle DevCents (6/12 shots each).
Arbiter_Shade wrote: I am not asking to be able to out shoot Space Marines, even though why not? Why should CSM not be allowed to shoot?
Why should Tau not be allowed to assault? It's the flavor of the game I guess.
Yoyoyo wrote: I'm not saying it's fair man, I'm just looking at how to beat them. How you plan to tackle Stalker Intercessors (1 shot each) is going to be a lot different than how you tackle DevCents (6/12 shots each).
Arbiter_Shade wrote: I am not asking to be able to out shoot Space Marines, even though why not? Why should CSM not be allowed to shoot?
Why should Tau not be allowed to assault? It's the flavor of the game I guess.
Are you saying it's fine how pitiful Kroot and Vespid are in melee?
Arbiter_Shade wrote: I am not asking to be able to out shoot Space Marines, even though why not? Why should CSM not be allowed to shoot? Why should my Obliterators that cost over 100 points a piece not be able to out shoot a 70 point SM unit? Plus, even if I try to punish him by taking Daemons to fish for a 5++ his Intercessors were not the issue for my troops. But the Centurions shooting at me with 6 S5 AP-1 and 12 S4 shoots PER Centurion with the IF chapter tactic they get two hits per 6 rolled sure do tear apart any of my daemon units in no time.
Because you're Chaos. Loyalists fight at range like the cowards they are, Chaos is supposed to revel in slaughtering the foe from close enough to smell it when he kaks himself. (I admit I can't judge it as well since I play Loyalist marines, but the Faith and Fury content for CSM looks pretty good. Dakka would be losing it's damn mind over how much of a boost you just got if it hadn't come out in the wake of Marine Codex 2.0.)
I'm curious what else he was taking to add up to 465. A maxed out Centurion squad with that weapon load is only 420, which is a pretty big chunk of a 1000 point list. For 70 point models they're awfully squishy.
Having been on the other side of that unit under IF, I can tell you they don't do well against T6+ multi-wound models that aren't vehicles. The first time I played a IF list built to maximize the +1D vs vehicles they get on Heavy weapons I ran into a DE list with six Talos(?), that's a T7 Monsterous model with six or seven wounds and a 4++. I could not kill those things fast enough. Cents don't like trying to catch artillery shells or Lascannon fire either, and they're pretty bad in melee if you can shut off Overwatch to get to them.
The Newman wrote: Because you're Chaos. Loyalists fight at range like the cowards they are, Chaos is supposed to revel in slaughtering the foe from close enough to smell it when he kaks himself.
That would be Khorne, like theoretically representative of say 20% of Chaos forces. Also, currently, BT are better at melee than Khorne's chosen legion, so I guess that idea's out the window, even if it were true.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: I am not asking to be able to out shoot Space Marines, even though why not? Why should CSM not be allowed to shoot? Why should my Obliterators that cost over 100 points a piece not be able to out shoot a 70 point SM unit? Plus, even if I try to punish him by taking Daemons to fish for a 5++ his Intercessors were not the issue for my troops. But the Centurions shooting at me with 6 S5 AP-1 and 12 S4 shoots PER Centurion with the IF chapter tactic they get two hits per 6 rolled sure do tear apart any of my daemon units in no time.
Because you're Chaos. Loyalists fight at range like the cowards they are, Chaos is supposed to revel in slaughtering the foe from close enough to smell it when he kaks himself. (I admit I can't judge it as well since I play Loyalist marines, but the Faith and Fury content for CSM looks pretty good. Dakka would be losing it's damn mind over how much of a boost you just got if it hadn't come out in the wake of Marine Codex 2.0.)
I'm curious what else he was taking to add up to 465. A maxed out Centurion squad with that weapon load is only 420, which is a pretty big chunk of a 1000 point list. For 70 point models they're awfully squishy.
Having been on the other side of that unit under IF, I can tell you they don't do well against T6+ multi-wound models that aren't vehicles. The first time I played a IF list built to maximize the +1D vs vehicles they get on Heavy weapons I ran into a DE list with six Talos(?), that's a T7 Monsterous model with six or seven wounds and a 4++. I could not kill those things fast enough. Cents don't like trying to catch artillery shells or Lascannon fire either, and they're pretty bad in melee if you can shut off Overwatch to get to them.
Except the point costs are still wildly out of balance, and the codex itself doesn't handle Legions well at all.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: I am not asking to be able to out shoot Space Marines, even though why not? Why should CSM not be allowed to shoot? Why should my Obliterators that cost over 100 points a piece not be able to out shoot a 70 point SM unit? Plus, even if I try to punish him by taking Daemons to fish for a 5++ his Intercessors were not the issue for my troops. But the Centurions shooting at me with 6 S5 AP-1 and 12 S4 shoots PER Centurion with the IF chapter tactic they get two hits per 6 rolled sure do tear apart any of my daemon units in no time.
Because you're Chaos. Loyalists fight at range like the cowards they are, Chaos is supposed to revel in slaughtering the foe from close enough to smell it when he kaks himself. (I admit I can't judge it as well since I play Loyalist marines, but the Faith and Fury content for CSM looks pretty good. Dakka would be losing it's damn mind over how much of a boost you just got if it hadn't come out in the wake of Marine Codex 2.0.)
I'm curious what else he was taking to add up to 465. A maxed out Centurion squad with that weapon load is only 420, which is a pretty big chunk of a 1000 point list. For 70 point models they're awfully squishy.
Having been on the other side of that unit under IF, I can tell you they don't do well against T6+ multi-wound models that aren't vehicles. The first time I played a IF list built to maximize the +1D vs vehicles they get on Heavy weapons I ran into a DE list with six Talos(?), that's a T7 Monsterous model with six or seven wounds and a 4++. I could not kill those things fast enough. Cents don't like trying to catch artillery shells or Lascannon fire either, and they're pretty bad in melee if you can shut off Overwatch to get to them.
If you are really interested in the list I can give you more specifics in DMs, no need to clog up this topic with that level of break down. I will say that it was not a maxed out unit of Centurions, it was just three. In a 1000 point game those three were deleting a squad of infantry a turn fairly easily. Also fine CSM are supposed to be about CC, as long as you ignore the long list of ranged units in the codex, if that is the case why are they still terrible at CC? People keep telling me that possessed can get really nasty in a WB list and I agree, except for the fact that they have to walk across the table taking two to three turns to get into CC and are fairly expensive units for how squishy they are. A base squad of possessed is 100 points and a squad of 6 Intercessors with Stalker Bolt rifles is 102, the only benefit that possessed get is S5 and 2A but they have to be in CC to even use that which in this edition is a losing proposition. I am leaving out all support units on purpose for this example because it can get very confused when you start throwing in a bunch of what ifs. I get that Warp Time can help out a unit of possessed but that is a haymaker that your opponent is going to see coming and has at least one turn to respond to and you are putting a squad of marines in the direct line of fire of your opponents entire army.
Faith and Fury did very little to address the issues of CSM, it added some cool new toys but for the most part it is a neat little toy on a broken army. Daemon weapons are cool and I love to see them come back but it doesn't really help when I don't have a unit that is worth putting them on. The new stratagems aren't going to shake up the meta of CSM, nor are the artifacts and warlord traits. They are just a bit of window fixings to make it look better but don't come close to addressing the structural issues of the army. I appreciate that I can now run a Dark Apostle with two chants with my WB, that is awesome and fluffy. But it doesn't address the fact that daemon summoning is just a really bad version of deep strike and my warlord trait doesn't actually do anything to benefit me and after seeing GW give to passes at throwing CSM a bone it is still disappointing.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: I get that Warp Time can help out a unit of possessed but that is a haymaker that your opponent is going to see coming and has at least one turn to respond to
I can see getting a T1 charge off with Possessed. Mark them Nurgle and start them next to a Gnarlmaw so they can charge after advancing. Move 7", advance, use your guaranteed Warptime, repeat. At this time you are probably about 21" across the board and can charge another 2D6.
Sure you are using support units, but they're moving three times as far. Use two stratagems and a psychic power, and they are hitting 4 times as hard, they can kill a Centurion with one wound. Why wouldn't you want to do that?
I mean, it's not going to make WB the new IH, but it's forcing a very outdated army forward, and I think it's the right sorta change for a army that really needed help.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: I am not asking to be able to out shoot Space Marines, even though why not? Why should CSM not be allowed to shoot? Why should my Obliterators that cost over 100 points a piece not be able to out shoot a 70 point SM unit? Plus, even if I try to punish him by taking Daemons to fish for a 5++ his Intercessors were not the issue for my troops. But the Centurions shooting at me with 6 S5 AP-1 and 12 S4 shoots PER Centurion with the IF chapter tactic they get two hits per 6 rolled sure do tear apart any of my daemon units in no time.
Because you're Chaos. Loyalists fight at range like the cowards they are, Chaos is supposed to revel in slaughtering the foe from close enough to smell it when he kaks himself. (I admit I can't judge it as well since I play Loyalist marines, but the Faith and Fury content for CSM looks pretty good. Dakka would be losing it's damn mind over how much of a boost you just got if it hadn't come out in the wake of Marine Codex 2.0.)
I'm curious what else he was taking to add up to 465. A maxed out Centurion squad with that weapon load is only 420, which is a pretty big chunk of a 1000 point list. For 70 point models they're awfully squishy.
Having been on the other side of that unit under IF, I can tell you they don't do well against T6+ multi-wound models that aren't vehicles. The first time I played a IF list built to maximize the +1D vs vehicles they get on Heavy weapons I ran into a DE list with six Talos(?), that's a T7 Monsterous model with six or seven wounds and a 4++. I could not kill those things fast enough. Cents don't like trying to catch artillery shells or Lascannon fire either, and they're pretty bad in melee if you can shut off Overwatch to get to them.
If you are really interested in the list I can give you more specifics in DMs, no need to clog up this topic with that level of break down. I will say that it was not a maxed out unit of Centurions, it was just three. In a 1000 point game those three were deleting a squad of infantry a turn fairly easily. Also fine CSM are supposed to be about CC, as long as you ignore the long list of ranged units in the codex, if that is the case why are they still terrible at CC? People keep telling me that possessed can get really nasty in a WB list and I agree, except for the fact that they have to walk across the table taking two to three turns to get into CC and are fairly expensive units for how squishy they are. A base squad of possessed is 100 points and a squad of 6 Intercessors with Stalker Bolt rifles is 102, the only benefit that possessed get is S5 and 2A but they have to be in CC to even use that which in this edition is a losing proposition. I am leaving out all support units on purpose for this example because it can get very confused when you start throwing in a bunch of what ifs. I get that Warp Time can help out a unit of possessed but that is a haymaker that your opponent is going to see coming and has at least one turn to respond to and you are putting a squad of marines in the direct line of fire of your opponents entire army.
Faith and Fury did very little to address the issues of CSM, it added some cool new toys but for the most part it is a neat little toy on a broken army. Daemon weapons are cool and I love to see them come back but it doesn't really help when I don't have a unit that is worth putting them on. The new stratagems aren't going to shake up the meta of CSM, nor are the artifacts and warlord traits. They are just a bit of window fixings to make it look better but don't come close to addressing the structural issues of the army. I appreciate that I can now run a Dark Apostle with two chants with my WB, that is awesome and fluffy. But it doesn't address the fact that daemon summoning is just a really bad version of deep strike and my warlord trait doesn't actually do anything to benefit me and after seeing GW give to passes at throwing CSM a bone it is still disappointing.
I meant the bit about CC to be toung-in-cheek, I guess I wasn't blatent enough about it.
Yes I would like to know what was in his list, and yours as well. Three Cents destroying a unit every turn does sound about like what I'd expect, but they're just 12 wounds at T5 Sv2+. They shouldn't be getting more than one turn of fire off before they get severely whittled down.
Wait, I don't play Chaos, but I was tooling around in BS making a WB army.
Can you take a WB Master of Executions, and give him 6 attacks, exploding 6s, at S10, -3AP D3+2 damage, with 6's equaling an extra mortal wound? Basically just pull off the warlord trait combo I mentioned above?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Wait, I don't play Chaos, but I was tooling around in BS making a WB army.
Can you take a WB Master of Executions, and give him 6 attacks, exploding 6s, at S10, -3AP D3+2 damage, with 6's equaling an extra mortal wound? Basically just pull off the warlord trait combo I mentioned above?
That sounds pretty nasty.
Yep, until you realize that a regular lord is just Plain better for the job.
Sadly.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Wait, I don't play Chaos, but I was tooling around in BS making a WB army.
Can you take a WB Master of Executions, and give him 6 attacks, exploding 6s, at S10, -3AP D3+2 damage, with 6's equaling an extra mortal wound? Basically just pull off the warlord trait combo I mentioned above?
That sounds pretty nasty.
Yep, until you realize that a regular lord is just Plain better for the job.
Sadly.
Because of a jump pack or something else? Because MoE is damn cheap for those stats.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Wait, I don't play Chaos, but I was tooling around in BS making a WB army.
Can you take a WB Master of Executions, and give him 6 attacks, exploding 6s, at S10, -3AP D3+2 damage, with 6's equaling an extra mortal wound? Basically just pull off the warlord trait combo I mentioned above?
That sounds pretty nasty.
Yep, until you realize that a regular lord is just Plain better for the job.
Sadly.
Because of a jump pack or something else? Because MoE is damn cheap for those stats.
Jump pack is indeed the case.
I did run a moe occaionally in my foot slogging mass rc army, but even there he never really achieved what he should have.
And then new marines showed up which made that army of me pretty unplayble sadly.
Also, i personally think He is a bit of an obsolete charachter.
Further i feel Like greater possesed achieve comoarable results.
Greater Possessed are cheap as chips. I have them popping out of Termites with completely unrelated squads just because they can potentially tie something up or hit something.
I was thinking one of the nastier combos would be 2x Jump Lords, one with the Ashen Axe (WB) and the other with the Armor of Abhorrence (EC).
You could turn off 400+pts of shooting from maxed unit of Bolter Cents, remove a few using a 4dmg Thunder Hammer, and not even face retaliation on the enemy's turn.
The Master of Executions should have just been the Exalted Champion's actual new sculpt, simple as that. As a unit it is /hilariously/ redundant. The last thing Chaos needs is a character hunting HQ choice, seeing as how we already have Exalted Champions, Greater Possessed and Jump Pack Lords, all of which do the same job only while also buffing your army.
vaklor4 wrote: The Master of Executions should have just been the Exalted Champion's actual new sculpt, simple as that. As a unit it is /hilariously/ redundant. The last thing Chaos needs is a character hunting HQ choice, seeing as how we already have Exalted Champions, Greater Possessed and Jump Pack Lords, all of which do the same job only while also buffing your army.
Jep, which further adds the issue that no new generic csmhq has the jumppack Option.
Even the exalted champion has none, and with the Indexes going Dodo i doubt that changes.
Also mop is one of the hardest non jumppack charachters to stomach Imo.
vaklor4 wrote: The Master of Executions should have just been the Exalted Champion's actual new sculpt, simple as that. As a unit it is /hilariously/ redundant. The last thing Chaos needs is a character hunting HQ choice, seeing as how we already have Exalted Champions, Greater Possessed and Jump Pack Lords, all of which do the same job only while also buffing your army.
Jep, which further adds the issue that no new generic csmhq has the jumppack Option.
Even the exalted champion has none, and with the Indexes going Dodo i doubt that changes.
Also mop is one of the hardest non jumppack charachters to stomach Imo.
In fairness, MoE would be /fairly/ insane with his 6" heroic if he had the fly keyword. They'd have to make the jump pack option pretty pricy for whats just a HQ torpedo.
vaklor4 wrote: The Master of Executions should have just been the Exalted Champion's actual new sculpt, simple as that. As a unit it is /hilariously/ redundant. The last thing Chaos needs is a character hunting HQ choice, seeing as how we already have Exalted Champions, Greater Possessed and Jump Pack Lords, all of which do the same job only while also buffing your army.
Jep, which further adds the issue that no new generic csmhq has the jumppack Option.
Even the exalted champion has none, and with the Indexes going Dodo i doubt that changes.
Also mop is one of the hardest non jumppack charachters to stomach Imo.
In fairness, MoE would be /fairly/ insane with his 6" heroic if he had the fly keyword. They'd have to make the jump pack option pretty pricy for whats just a HQ torpedo.
We didn't need him to beginn with and on foot he will allways remain more useless then all other options, even gp's are a better option.
I think people are overly obsessed with jump packs, but I understand why.
GP is a buffer and doesn't come close to the hitting power of the MoE who carries a PF with no modifier and the Deathskullz trait on top of intervene.
Phobos CPTs/LTs aren't exactly tearing it up with their basic deep strike and combat knife, so, for those looking for differentiation between CSM and SM - this is the way CSM operate.
To be fair, the MoE can Move 7, advance, and still charge. According to the combo which I may have gotten very wrong. But it says he can advance and charge same turn.
So if you put him on the front, Warp Time him, and hit him with everything else, he will slaughter some HQs first turn with luck...
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: To be fair, the MoE can Move 7, advance, and still charge. According to the combo which I may have gotten very wrong. But it says he can advance and charge same turn.
So if you put him on the front, Warp Time him, and hit him with everything else, he will slaughter some HQs first turn with luck...
M6. GP is M7. You're unlikely to get him into combat with a character and advance and charge is not innate.
Daedalus81 wrote: I think people are overly obsessed with jump packs, but I understand why.
The fact that people see Jump Packs as a enar mandatory HQ upgrades leads me to wonder if Jump[ packs are properly costed. But I suspect it's one of those "this is eaither good and utterly worth it, or too expensive to ever be worth it" options.
Yoyoyo wrote: For those interested, check out Nick Nanavati's list for trying out the new Chaos.
Spoiler:
Doesn't look that much different from the usual Chaos soup. At least it has actual marines. But see here's the thing: Your competitive players don't care about things like which legion they play, or usually aren't attracted to a legion. They'll always pick whatever is the strongest, and the rest be damned. Which, while interesting from a "what works" standpoint, also gaks on the people who actually care about what legion they pick beyond "is it good". I'm sure Nick, although i've heard he's a nice guy, doesn't give a feth about the background or actually cares about Chaos, only what he thinks will do well in a tournament. So if someone doesn't like alpha legion, they're at a disadvantage because alpha legion is the "best".
but it's the INTERNET! the entire point of it is for nerds to struggle in a fight for dominance so that one and ONLY one can emerge as "THE ONE WHO IS RIGHT!"
Daedalus81 wrote: It will be interesting to see how he does. Seems like he just wants to stack negatives to hit on the possessed until they get to combat.
It's an interesting list, it's definitely leveraging all the Alpha Legion tricks.
Spend a CP, give the LD Clandestine, throw Benediction of Darkness on him, he's -3 to hit.
Throw MoP from the Poxbringers on the Possessed, make them -2 to hit.
Use Conceal, make sure the Nurglings are deployed betwen the Possessed and your enemy.
Have Ambush with the Noise Marines for additional deep strike protection, screen clearing.
Use the TS detachment for buffing and keeping the backfield clear, probably send one of the DPs forward. Warptime at 9", Diabolic Strength at 18", Prescience at 24".
Hope your opponent doesn't kill the Cultists you're hoping are ignored while they try to jump on objectives, maybe with Renascent Infiltration.
It's a gamble list, but it has some tools to deliver the package he wants to deliver. I'm just not sure how he deals with heavy armor. It could work, but it's janky as hell, lots of failure points.
Daedalus81 wrote: It will be interesting to see how he does. Seems like he just wants to stack negatives to hit on the possessed until they get to combat.
It's an interesting list, it's definitely leveraging all the Alpha Legion tricks.
Spend a CP, give the LD Clandestine, throw Benediction of Darkness on him, he's -3 to hit.
Throw MoP from the Poxbringers on the Possessed, make them -2 to hit.
Use Conceal, make sure the Nurglings are deployed betwen the Possessed and your enemy.
Have Ambush with the Noise Marines for additional deep strike protection, screen clearing.
Use the TS detachment for buffing and keeping the backfield clear, probably send one of the DPs forward. Warptime at 9", Diabolic Strength at 18", Prescience at 24".
Hope your opponent doesn't kill the Cultists you're hoping are ignored while they try to jump on objectives, maybe with Renascent Infiltration.
It's a gamble list, but it has some tools to deliver the package he wants to deliver. I'm just not sure how he deals with heavy armor. It could work, but it's janky as hell, lots of failure points.
I think snipers are his bigger weakness. The apostle is the most reliable negative hit bonus as well as the softest target.
Disco lord stands out like a sore thumb, too.
A little over half that possessed can smoke a knight, but CP spend may be high.
Psionara wrote: Scrolling through the Chaos Space Marien Legion Tactics, they seem really weak and minimal in their capacity compared to the Space Marines Chapter Tactics.
Night Lords? Models in enemy units must subtract 1 from their Leadership characteristic for each unit with this trait that is within 6" of theirs (to a maximum of -3). Ohh, one whole Leadership point, assuming you're not ganking one unit.
Word Bearers? You can re-roll failed Morale tests for units with this trait. And Space Marines already have this automatically...
Alpha Legion? Your opponent must subtract 1 from hit rolls that target units with this trait if they are more than 12" away. Raven Guard get this plus +1 to cover, even out in the open.
I could note more, but I hope that you get the point that Chaos Legion Tactics are inferior to Space Marine Chapter Tactics. Does anyone else feel this way? By the way, I am not a Chaos Space Marine player, I merely compare and contrast rules in the hopes of balance. Chaos Space Marines get one, MAYBE two tactics, meanwhile Space Marines get 2-3. Thoughts?
Psionara wrote: Scrolling through the Chaos Space Marien Legion Tactics, they seem really weak and minimal in their capacity compared to the Space Marines Chapter Tactics.
Night Lords? Models in enemy units must subtract 1 from their Leadership characteristic for each unit with this trait that is within 6" of theirs (to a maximum of -3). Ohh, one whole Leadership point, assuming you're not ganking one unit.
Word Bearers? You can re-roll failed Morale tests for units with this trait. And Space Marines already have this automatically...
Alpha Legion? Your opponent must subtract 1 from hit rolls that target units with this trait if they are more than 12" away. Raven Guard get this plus +1 to cover, even out in the open.
I could note more, but I hope that you get the point that Chaos Legion Tactics are inferior to Space Marine Chapter Tactics. Does anyone else feel this way? By the way, I am not a Chaos Space Marine player, I merely compare and contrast rules in the hopes of balance. Chaos Space Marines get one, MAYBE two tactics, meanwhile Space Marines get 2-3. Thoughts?
Every faction traits sux compared to the new SM.
I think they tried to balance things with better Stratagems, Relics and Traits which works for Necrons that usually use the worst Dynasty Code for all the other benefits of using that Dynasty. Orks have some really great Klan Kulturs, way overtuned compared to most Chapter Tactics, Genestealers as well. I think it's a bad idea to move more and more power to Chapter Tactics so I'm kind of happy they didn't go that route with CSM. The problem is Combat Doctrines which leaves the basic CSM a lot weaker and the bizarre choice not to let CSM use Legion Traits for their vehicles (other than for Dreadnoughts which are a bigger issue than any other vehicle in any case).
Daedalus81 wrote: I think snipers are his bigger weakness. The apostle is the most reliable negative hit bonus as well as the softest target.
Well, first off, this list isn't beating Marines of any flavor most likely, it's definitely not doing anything against RG. Also, I'd say the Heralds are the softest target, they're also something that you want to remove since they are the major damage amplifiers, between the Locus and Virulent Blessing.
He's probably going to be -3 to hit on the first round whether you win initiative or not. I actually think he'll be fairly durable. But that's also the problem, you're basically counting on the Disco Lord and the Possessed to do almost everything, with a little help from the two DPs.
Daedalus81 wrote: A little over half that possessed can smoke a knight, but CP spend may be high.
The Disco Lord with Virulent Blessing and Diabolic Strength has a good chance of killing a knight on the charge also. The tricky decision I had looking at this list was Benediction of Darkness or Soultearer Portent, but probably BoD for the protection. SP/VB would have him doing double damage on a 5+ wound roll. But with MoP and Clandestine he's going to be -2 to hit in melee, -3 outside of 12" and obviously you could put BoD on him to bring him up to -2 melee/-3/-4 outside of 12".
However, I suspect he's moving the Heralds/DA up with the Possessed, get them up to Strength 6 and +1 damage on a wound roll of 6+. If you get SP, VB, and Veterans on them with the LoN, that's +3 to wound with 6+ doing +1D and 7+ doing double, so 3D each on a 4+ to wound and D3+1 attacks each on the charge.
It's got a lot of moving parts and you can't really afford to move things around too much in the list, but it's something. It's kind of a big Jenga list, pull out the wrong piece and the whole thing falls apart.
I don't think you're without options. You can infiltrate the Noise Marines into the Eldar backfield, fire twice, and wipe out the majority of their Infantry for 3CP.
Once the infantry is gone, the Eldar vehicles risk getting tied up by infantry or assaulted by the Daemon Princes if they want to compete for objectives. Meanwhile the TS characters are going to be sitting in the Possessed blob throwing out Smites to 24" away.
What are your options as the Eldar player? Do you want to shoot at the -3 to hit Possessed that are getting Warptimed into your tanks, or do you spend the 1-2 turns you have before making contact blowing away a few scattered Cultists and Nurglings?
The CSM list might not look overpowering on paper but it's following a gameplan that's been proven to work.
Yoyoyo wrote: For those interested, check out Nick Nanavati's list for trying out the new Chaos.
Spoiler:
I pity him trying to play against that Eldar list.
Three planes AND three tanks AND two Wave Serpents.
Talk about unfun.
Well, i expect more CWE good list to go that route. PA did literally nothing for the fun aeldar units, so that is mostly what it`s good in the marine metta.
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Yoyoyo wrote: I don't think you're without options. You can infiltrate the Noise Marines into the Eldar backfield, fire twice, and wipe out the majority of their Infantry for 3CP.
Once the infantry is gone, the Eldar vehicles risk getting tied up by infantry or assaulted by the Daemon Princes if they want to compete for objectives. Meanwhile the TS characters are going to be sitting in the Possessed blob throwing out Smites to 24" away.
What are your options as the Eldar player? Do you want to shoot at the -3 to hit Possessed that are getting Warptimed into your tanks, or do you spend the 1-2 turns you have before making contact blowing away a few scattered Cultists and Nurglings?
The CSM list might not look overpowering on paper but it's following a gameplan that's been proven to work.
Well aeldar tanks fly, but that is rly only shooting list without any idea of melee. Is that game available somewhere or it`s payed ?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: To be fair, the MoE can Move 7, advance, and still charge. According to the combo which I may have gotten very wrong. But it says he can advance and charge same turn.
So if you put him on the front, Warp Time him, and hit him with everything else, he will slaughter some HQs first turn with luck...
M6. GP is M7. You're unlikely to get him into combat with a character and advance and charge is not innate.
Really the only way to run him is in a transport.
M7 is with the Warlord trait that gives him +1 to S/M/A. so M7. 14" with advance, and a charge that can be re-rolled. It's not great, but a S10 6 Attack model that does Mortals on 6s with a re-roll, and that weird character targeting heroic intervention rule...
I mean I would be forced to take him seriously at least, which is more than I can say for a lot of the WB Units I've seen him play. It's not overwhelming knock my socks off oP, but it's good for the cost. I'm happy it exists, because he gets to do fun stuff like this now with his units that he never plays anymore because they mostly suck.
So after playing a couple of test games I think Faith and Fury made CSM a lot better. I still lost my test game against ironhands marines, but it was a nasty list and I only barely lost. All the other games I won.
So I think that puts CSM in a pretty good spot. Slightly worse than marines (and maybe sisters of battle to), but better than most everyone else. Hopefully the rumors are wrong about chapter approved and CSM will get points drops there. With a few key drops this army might actually be able to fight SM on equal footing.
What about the renegade traits from the second Vigilus book? The Red Corsairs can advance and charge, as well get an extra CP with a large enough army.
And shouldn't even be in the same Codex. Let the regular Vanilla codex handle Renegades like it should've from the beginning.
Wrong. Renegades should be in the Chaos Marines Codex and Legions should be reserved for playing 30K. They have no place in 40K.
Hell, most Renegades are what remained when the Legions broke apart. The Sanctified are remnants of the disbanded Word Bearers that went full Khorne. The Prodigal Sons are literally the Chaos Marines Ahriman assembled when he became the Thousand Sons Enemy Nr. Uno and Magnus' arch-enemy, even ahead of Space Wolves. Etc...
And shouldn't even be in the same Codex. Let the regular Vanilla codex handle Renegades like it should've from the beginning.
Wrong. Renegades should be in the Chaos Marines Codex and Legions should be reserved for playing 30K. They have no place in 40K.
Hello, loyal imperial citizen! It might come as a shock to you, but most traitor legions refuse to disband into chapters as the Codex Astartes dictates and are still around 10.000 years later.
Hello, loyal imperial citizen! It might come as a shock to you, but most traitor legions refuse to disband into chapters as the Codex Astartes dictates and are still around 10.000 years later.
That's not what the lore pre 8th edition says. They were all disbanded, shattered, broke apart, followed the next best daemon princes, rebelled against their Legion (e.g. Ahriman & Prodigal Sons), strayed from the characteristics of their original Legion (e.g. Sanctified, former Word Bearers turned Khorne Berzerkers). Some joined forces (e.g. Warriors of Agganor, which merged survivors of both Word Bearers and Night Lords after the Heresy).
The Black Legion explicitly wasn't the successor to the Sons of Horus, but a hodge podge of all traitors that were continuing the cause of the Horus Heresy.
Sure, Alpha Legion was rumoured to be pulling the strings behind some Renegades such as the Shadowed Ones, but that was pretty much the extend of it and Alpha Legion lore was intentially ambigious, even more than it is now.
Hello, loyal imperial citizen! It might come as a shock to you, but most traitor legions refuse to disband into chapters as the Codex Astartes dictates and are still around 10.000 years later.
That's not what the lore pre 8th edition says. They were all disbanded, shattered, broke apart, followed the next best daemon princes, rebelled against their Legion (e.g. Ahriman & Prodigal Sons), strayed from the characteristics of their original Legion (e.g. Sanctified, former Word Bearers turned Khorne Berzerkers). Some joined forces (e.g. Warriors of Agganor, which merged survivors of both Word Bearers and Night Lords after the Heresy).
The Black Legion explicitly wasn't the successor to the Sons of Horus, but a hodge podge of all traitors that were continuing the cause of the Horus Heresy.
Sure, Alpha Legion was rumoured to be pulling the strings behind some Renegades such as the Shadowed Ones, but that was pretty much the extend of it and Alpha Legion lore was intentially ambigious, even more than it is now.
there is a heavy dsitinction between shattering :( EC, WE) and having splinters.
You realise that.
A infantry division is also not shattered,if one brigade splits off. or some dudes deserted.....
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Eldarain wrote: Extra salt from the PA book we got being the only one so far without "build your own Warband/Legion trait"
Who on the design team hates Word Bearers that much?
Probably the most structured legion left beyond AL, and IW, but alas...
Hello, loyal imperial citizen! It might come as a shock to you, but most traitor legions refuse to disband into chapters as the Codex Astartes dictates and are still around 10.000 years later.
That's not what the lore pre 8th edition says. They were all disbanded, shattered, broke apart, followed the next best daemon princes, rebelled against their Legion (e.g. Ahriman & Prodigal Sons), strayed from the characteristics of their original Legion (e.g. Sanctified, former Word Bearers turned Khorne Berzerkers). Some joined forces (e.g. Warriors of Agganor, which merged survivors of both Word Bearers and Night Lords after the Heresy).
The Black Legion explicitly wasn't the successor to the Sons of Horus, but a hodge podge of all traitors that were continuing the cause of the Horus Heresy.
Sure, Alpha Legion was rumoured to be pulling the strings behind some Renegades such as the Shadowed Ones, but that was pretty much the extend of it and Alpha Legion lore was intentially ambigious, even more than it is now.
there is a heavy dsitinction between shattering :( EC, WE) and having splinters.
You realise that.
A infantry division is also not shattered,if one brigade splits off. or some dudes deserted.....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldarain wrote: Extra salt from the PA book we got being the only one so far without "build your own Warband/Legion trait"
Who on the design team hates Word Bearers that much?
Probably the most structured legion left beyond AL, and IW, but alas...
Alpha Legion is structured? Is this canon? Not trying to undermine your post, just am curious where in the fluff this comes from
The issue is, atleast with AL, what we know is that they relied on "warhosts", which were in essence adhoc formaions. (doctrine like it's the same as a Kampfgruppe.) And even in the heresey days they relied on a lot of desinformation, sabotage and non astartes personell.
Secondly, even though they seem to be organized in Terrorcells, they seemiingly band together witout any issues in bigger formations, meaning that they indeed still have an intact comand structure.
Further, considering that AL also relies on a lot of Operatives that are not marines, and have never been banished to the warp, means that they also are probably more numerous then most legions aswell.
So overall, they should in theory not be shattered but instead be completely organized diffrently to the common legions.
Not Online!!! wrote: The issue is, atleast with AL, what we know is that they relied on "warhosts", which were in essence adhoc formaions. (doctrine like it's the same as a Kampfgruppe.) And even in the heresey days they relied on a lot of desinformation, sabotage and non astartes personell.
Secondly, even though they seem to be organized in Terrorcells, they seemiingly band together witout any issues in bigger formations, meaning that they indeed still have an intact comand structure.
Further, considering that AL also relies on a lot of Operatives that are not marines, and have never been banished to the warp, means that they also are probably more numerous then most legions aswell.
So overall, they should in theory not be shattered but instead be completely organized diffrently to the common legions.
I still think 10.000 years of dabbling with chaos left his marks on the legion . But this is me, hating the "we are actually loyalists playing the long game" idea that came up after the HH novels
Eldarain wrote: Extra salt from the PA book we got being the only one so far without "build your own Warband/Legion trait"
Who on the design team hates Word Bearers that much?
I think it is more a case of GW doesn't hate the architects of the heresey they simply don't have a clue how to address them.
Warp above, some recent renegade warbands i.e. Purge and the EC type one - can't remember their name at present - got better damned traits, etc.
Realistically, WB should get free daemon summons - but that would probably be broken as heck unless implemented similarly to the Khorne Daemonkin summon table.
Eldarain wrote: Extra salt from the PA book we got being the only one so far without "build your own Warband/Legion trait"
Who on the design team hates Word Bearers that much?
They didn't even try to half-ass a trait system or anything. Just simply doesn't exist.
It becomes increasingly obvious that they just don't know what to do with Chaos in general. This is the second time this year (CSM v2 was in March) that they had the opportunity to revisit Legion traits etc and they didn't take it.
Eldarain wrote: Extra salt from the PA book we got being the only one so far without "build your own Warband/Legion trait"
Who on the design team hates Word Bearers that much?
They didn't even try to half-ass a trait system or anything. Just simply doesn't exist.
It becomes increasingly obvious that they just don't know what to do with Chaos in general. This is the second time this year (CSM v2 was in March) that they had the opportunity to revisit Legion traits etc and they didn't take it.
Ha, atleast they revist the CSm dex.
Unlike Renegades and heretics, or DG, or TS for that matter.
(then again the former is FW index army and GW is doing 'ts best to kill it outright atm and the later probably needed it less then the mainline CSM dex. Still annoying considering there are now 10 rulesources for Chaos space marines themselves...... Btw you can't even skip the shadowspear booklet due to the Psyker wl traits not beeing reprinted in dex 2.0, like dafuq?)
Even the World Eaters one annoys me. The 'everyone in the chapter is 100% melee-crazed axe murderers all the time' just isn't functional. Khorne doesn't object to ranged killing or smart killing. He just wants blood and gobbets of flesh everywhere.
So the 'Axes Axes Axes' angle makes me pause whenever I think about making a WE force. Because at some point a World Eaters solo book may actually happen and strip out over half the codex from their options. Which would be beyond infuriating, but given TS and DG, it seems a perfectly legitimate concern.
When Death Guard received their own codes, it was hard to ignore the obvious. That is, until the codex, bikers and Obliterators were the cornerstone of any Death Guard army. And, guess what got removed completely?
Definitely agree on the World Eaters, because I have an army of them, and I expect one of these days they’ll get a codex and it will consist of Kharn and the unit entry for a new Berzerker kit that will cost $40 for five. (comes with two chain axes and ten chain swords, so the unit can have a maximum of two axes to comply with the kit)
I am guessing World Eaters' Khorne Bezerkers will be boxed as 8, as Death Guard's number is 7 and they receive 7 in a box, Thousand Sons' number is 9 and they receive 9 in a box. Safe to assume that Emperor's Children will receive 6 Noise Marines. Price wise, I think we will be looking at $60 USD for each box.
What kills me about this is the lack of any kind of buff for running the sacred numbers. Units are still 10 man, on paper, and the boxes are sold as if they were 10 man boxes, in price, but the boxes only hold sacred numbers of troops with super-sub-optimal loadout capabilities? It was one of the most easily identifiable ways to slip in a fix for cult armies.
Regardless, GW has no imagination. I'm sure these boards could realistically create 50 different unique fixes in the form of functional and balanced abilities, psyker powers and so forth. GW keeps acting like it's "6 dudes in a garage creating the kind of wargame they love to play" instead of hiring professional and/or passionate people to do work writing and refining a functional game system for the largest and most profitable wargames company in the world.
Even the World Eaters one annoys me. The 'everyone in the chapter is 100% melee-crazed axe murderers all the time' just isn't functional. Khorne doesn't object to ranged killing or smart killing. He just wants blood and gobbets of flesh everywhere.
So the 'Axes Axes Axes' angle makes me pause whenever I think about making a WE force. Because at some point a World Eaters solo book may actually happen and strip out over half the codex from their options. Which would be beyond infuriating, but given TS and DG, it seems a perfectly legitimate concern.
When Death Guard received their own codes, it was hard to ignore the obvious. That is, until the codex, bikers and Obliterators were the cornerstone of any Death Guard army. And, guess what got removed completely?
Definitely agree on the World Eaters, because I have an army of them, and I expect one of these days they’ll get a codex and it will consist of Kharn and the unit entry for a new Berzerker kit that will cost $40 for five. (comes with two chain axes and ten chain swords, so the unit can have a maximum of two axes to comply with the kit)
I am guessing World Eaters' Khorne Bezerkers will be boxed as 8, as Death Guard's number is 7 and they receive 7 in a box, Thousand Sons' number is 9 and they receive 9 in a box. Safe to assume that Emperor's Children will receive 6 Noise Marines. Price wise, I think we will be looking at $60 USD for each box.
What kills me about this is the lack of any kind of buff for running the sacred numbers. Units are still 10 man, on paper, and the boxes are sold as if they were 10 man boxes, in price, but the boxes only hold sacred numbers of troops with super-sub-optimal loadout capabilities? It was one of the most easily identifiable ways to slip in a fix for cult armies.
Regardless, GW has no imagination. I'm sure these boards could realistically create 50 different unique fixes in the form of functional and balanced abilities, psyker powers and so forth. GW keeps acting like it's "6 dudes in a garage creating the kind of wargame they love to play" instead of hiring professional and/or passionate people to do work writing and refining a functional game system for the largest and most profitable wargames company in the world.
> If cult marines are in their sacred number squad size, count them as having 10-man for the purpose of taking special weapons
> If chaos marine squads are in 20 man, double the number of special/heavy weapons they can take
They are now better, reflects the fluff, takes advantage of csm's unique ability to take 20 man squads, and isn't OP
The sacred numbers and powers rivalries are fun and fluffy concepts that have seen their day. Having to build around numbers was a hassle and advantaged some powers more than others really.
I think we're as good as we're getting for awhile. The TS soup component is getting an upgrade, so that will help.
If you really wanted to move the needle without bringing in new units and models, there's some pretty simple stuff you could do.
- Make the 4 primary cult marine units into Troops for every legion.
- Make Possessed into Troops for every legion.
This wouldn't fix CSM problems entirely, but it would certainly make them more competitive and bring some more variety to the lists going on to the table. Word Bearers might have a viable soup build or two.
Continuity wrote: This is old news for chaos players, chaos space marines are the worst unit in Codex Chaos Space Marines, CSM codex """"2.0"""" is a scam, cultists get nerfed in every major rule update, the list goes on.
The overall state of chaos marines is pathetic.
Oh please, they're not that bad at all. I run them all the time and have no issues with them. They are the main troops for my armies, I never even run cultists (i don't even own any) and putting them in a Rhino makes getting to objectives speedy. They put out a decent amount of bolter fire and save on a 3+ (2+ in cover) and can take two plasma guns per ten (I usually give them two HBs, but ymmv). I also enjoy running a brick of 20 with chainswords and BP up the field with a Lord, Champion and a Apostle/Sorcerer for some really nasty ass melee action. I've had some great outcomes where my spikey power armor has won me a game or two.
Also: We're getting new traits and two wounds in CA2019 so things are going to get a lot better for the legions pretty soon.
Continuity wrote: This is old news for chaos players, chaos space marines are the worst unit in Codex Chaos Space Marines, CSM codex """"2.0"""" is a scam, cultists get nerfed in every major rule update, the list goes on.
The overall state of chaos marines is pathetic.
Also: We're getting new traits and two wounds in CA2019 so things are going to get a lot better for the legions pretty soon.
Review copies for CA2019 has been out for a week and there was no mention of new traits or 2 wounds for anything
Review copies for CA2019 has been out for a week and there was no mention of new traits or 2 wounds for anything
The only way that rumor makes any sense now is if they were mistaken about which book it was in and PA has those changes, but only for TS and PG. Incredibly unlikely at this point.
Review copies for CA2019 has been out for a week and there was no mention of new traits or 2 wounds for anything
The only way that rumor makes any sense now is if they were mistaken about which book it was in and PA has those changes, but only for TS and PG. Incredibly unlikely at this point.
It would also massively annoy the other csm players.
Until we and Ec show up that is
Continuity wrote: This is old news for chaos players, chaos space marines are the worst unit in Codex Chaos Space Marines, CSM codex """"2.0"""" is a scam, cultists get nerfed in every major rule update, the list goes on.
The overall state of chaos marines is pathetic.
Also: We're getting new traits and two wounds in CA2019 so things are going to get a lot better for the legions pretty soon.
Review copies for CA2019 has been out for a week and there was no mention of new traits or 2 wounds for anything
Yes, this rumor has been officially debunked as false at least as far as CA is concerned. Who knows this might be a plan later down when TS/DG get their new codex (whenever that is) and dare I say the eventual WE/EC codexes (soon*)
As a response, the Iron Warrior trait is nowhere near as bad as people make out. Ignoring cover is a big deal. Granted, IF get that +1, but it's still a decent trait overall (compared to some of the others). Haven't looked at what they got in F+F yet, but I hear positive remarks. Space Marine level, heck no, but hopefully some good synergies.
Actually the IW trait is god-tier in my local meta because we basically play city fight all the time with all the scalable ruins terrain in my FLGS. "Oh, so you hid your Precious in a building somewhere? Well, here are 3 deepstriking Oblits. And you don't get a cover save because IW. Have fun!"
As a response, the Iron Warrior trait is nowhere near as bad as people make out. Ignoring cover is a big deal. Granted, IF get that +1, but it's still a decent trait overall (compared to some of the others). Haven't looked at what they got in F+F yet, but I hear positive remarks. Space Marine level, heck no, but hopefully some good synergies.
Actually the IW trait is god-tier in my local meta because we basically play city fight all the time with all the scalable ruins terrain in my FLGS. "Oh, so you hid your Precious in a building somewhere? Well, here are 3 deepstriking Oblits. And you don't get a cover save because IW. Have fun!"
Ignoring cover is actually a really good trait and useful in most situations. Less for Chaos due to it only effecting infantry and dreads rather than everything
I expect this to become even more of a valuable trait if the trend continues to replace -1 to hit traits with count in cover instead
Yoyoyo wrote: Troops are supposed to sit on objectives and score VP.
Why does every unit in the game need some special snowflake nonsense?
Plenty of factions use troops to do heavy lifting. Orks, GSC, Nids, Daemons, and marines recently won a GT with 50 intercessors also.
It's a poor argument anyway because the problems with Marine troops are the exact same as the problems with all their infantry. This isn't a case that Chosen/Vets were viable and CSM/Tacs weren't. Its a problem of All marine infantry that doesn't have a gratuitous amount of special rules piled on not being viable.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: The sacred numbers and powers rivalries are fun and fluffy concepts that have seen their day. Having to build around numbers was a hassle and advantaged some powers more than others really.
I think we're as good as we're getting for awhile. The TS soup component is getting an upgrade, so that will help.
If you really wanted to move the needle without bringing in new units and models, there's some pretty simple stuff you could do.
- Make the 4 primary cult marine units into Troops for every legion.
- Make Possessed into Troops for every legion.
This wouldn't fix CSM problems entirely, but it would certainly make them more competitive and bring some more variety to the lists going on to the table. Word Bearers might have a viable soup build or two.
You simply won't get thousand sons zerkers, or emperors children rubrics etc. So I cant buy into that, likewise possessed as troops I do like but doesnt fit in for TS at least.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: The sacred numbers and powers rivalries are fun and fluffy concepts that have seen their day. Having to build around numbers was a hassle and advantaged some powers more than others really.
I think we're as good as we're getting for awhile. The TS soup component is getting an upgrade, so that will help.
If you really wanted to move the needle without bringing in new units and models, there's some pretty simple stuff you could do.
- Make the 4 primary cult marine units into Troops for every legion.
- Make Possessed into Troops for every legion.
This wouldn't fix CSM problems entirely, but it would certainly make them more competitive and bring some more variety to the lists going on to the table. Word Bearers might have a viable soup build or two.
You simply won't get thousand sons zerkers, or emperors children rubrics etc. So I cant buy into that, likewise possessed as troops I do like but doesnt fit in for TS at least.
Zerkers are Khorne, TS, DG and EC cannot take Khorne units, making them troops for everyone wouldn't change that.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: The sacred numbers and powers rivalries are fun and fluffy concepts that have seen their day. Having to build around numbers was a hassle and advantaged some powers more than others really.
I think we're as good as we're getting for awhile. The TS soup component is getting an upgrade, so that will help.
If you really wanted to move the needle without bringing in new units and models, there's some pretty simple stuff you could do.
- Make the 4 primary cult marine units into Troops for every legion.
- Make Possessed into Troops for every legion.
This wouldn't fix CSM problems entirely, but it would certainly make them more competitive and bring some more variety to the lists going on to the table. Word Bearers might have a viable soup build or two.
You simply won't get thousand sons zerkers, or emperors children rubrics etc. So I cant buy into that, likewise possessed as troops I do like but doesnt fit in for TS at least.
Zerkers are Khorne, TS, DG and EC cannot take Khorne units, making them troops for everyone wouldn't change that.
Ahh I see, I hadn't read it that way, I took it as a suggestion they should appear as troops in all legions irrespective of mark.
I'd quite like to see them do a custom chapter affair where you can trade trait rules for access to gods, get some renegades who will only court with nurgle & slaanesh for example but have fewer special rules than an undivided warband.
Dudeface wrote: I'd quite like to see them do a custom chapter affair where you can trade trait rules for access to gods, get some renegades who will only court with nurgle & slaanesh for example but have fewer special rules than an undivided warband.
What's the benefit of being Nurgle/Slaanesh in this scenario if you have fewer special rules than an undivided warband?
Dudeface wrote: I'd quite like to see them do a custom chapter affair where you can trade trait rules for access to gods, get some renegades who will only court with nurgle & slaanesh for example but have fewer special rules than an undivided warband.
What's the benefit of being Nurgle/Slaanesh in this scenario if you have fewer special rules than an undivided warband?
Troop cult marines and cult bonus, akin to doctrines?
All nurgle gain 6+++
vict0988 wrote: Zerkers are Khorne, TS, DG and EC cannot take Khorne units, making them troops for everyone wouldn't change that.
Yes, the power dedicated legions would obviously be more limited in that World Eaters would obviously only have Berzerkers and Possessed as troops. Currently TS doesn't have access to Possessed, which I think should be changed, but otherwise, it would be a fairly seamless change that would provide a lot of variety and new build possibilities.
vict0988 wrote: Zerkers are Khorne, TS, DG and EC cannot take Khorne units, making them troops for everyone wouldn't change that.
Yes, the power dedicated legions would obviously be more limited in that World Eaters would obviously only have Berzerkers and Possessed as troops. Currently TS doesn't have access to Possessed, which I think should be changed, but otherwise, it would be a fairly seamless change that would provide a lot of variety and new build possibilities.
They did in RT. It would be easy enough in the fluff to say that their possessed are simply failed sorcerers or something similar. The Rubric is one of the most annoying pieces of lore to me, at the same time, it has so much potential to expand the Legion's look, feel, and playstyle in some really cool ways that sadly GW never seems to explore.
vict0988 wrote: Zerkers are Khorne, TS, DG and EC cannot take Khorne units, making them troops for everyone wouldn't change that.
Yes, the power dedicated legions would obviously be more limited in that World Eaters would obviously only have Berzerkers and Possessed as troops. Currently TS doesn't have access to Possessed, which I think should be changed, but otherwise, it would be a fairly seamless change that would provide a lot of variety and new build possibilities.
They did in RT. It would be easy enough in the fluff to say that their possessed are simply failed sorcerers or something similar. The Rubric is one of the most annoying pieces of lore to me, at the same time, it has so much potential to expand the Legion's look, feel, and playstyle in some really cool ways that sadly GW never seems to explore.
Alright, I'm convinced it'd be fluffy for TS to have Possessed. In what ways would you have liked to see TS expanded? I think Tzaangor and Mutalith Vortex Beasts are pretty cool.
They did in RT. It would be easy enough in the fluff to say that their possessed are simply failed sorcerers or something similar. The Rubric is one of the most annoying pieces of lore to me, at the same time, it has so much potential to expand the Legion's look, feel, and playstyle in some really cool ways that sadly GW never seems to explore.
Alright, I'm convinced it'd be fluffy for TS to have Possessed. In what ways would you have liked to see TS expanded? I think Tzaangor and Mutalith Vortex Beasts are pretty cool.
I'd like to see them expanded by consolidation back into the Legion codex where they should be.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'd like to see them expanded by consolidation back into the Legion codex where they should be.
I could kind of go either way on this, in most ways I feel like the horse is already out of the barn on that one though.
As for expanding TS, I'd like to see Rubric traits added to more traditional units. I despise that TS fields a Hellbrute, Rubric Dreadnoughts (and vehicles in general), Sorcerer Dreadnoughts and Possessed I think would be very flavorful.
I'd like to see some competent sorcerers for other legions. Specifically because I miss having the ability to field a Sorcerer Lord in a non-TS legion.
Galas wrote: TS Contemptor Psyker Rubric-like Dreadnoughts would be ultra cool. Much more than those lame Blood Angel Librarian dreadnoughts.
Yeah, turned out Blood Angels are the only Marines ever to stick Librarians in a Dreadnought. No, not Blood Ravens, not Dark Angels (which are only ever Deathwing), not Grey Knights, not Ultramarines, nobody. Period. Not allowed.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'd like to see them expanded by consolidation back into the Legion codex where they should be.
I could kind of go either way on this, in most ways I feel like the horse is already out of the barn on that one though.
As for expanding TS, I'd like to see Rubric traits added to more traditional units. I despise that TS fields a Hellbrute, Rubric Dreadnoughts (and vehicles in general), Sorcerer Dreadnoughts and Possessed I think would be very flavorful.
I'd like to see some competent sorcerers for other legions. Specifically because I miss having the ability to field a Sorcerer Lord in a non-TS legion.
Honestly based on the fact we have all this garbage being released right now, do we really care?
At least at minimum it's easier to consolidate them compared to Death Guard (which I went over in the Proposed Rules subforum for a Legion rule to have).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly based on the fact we have all this garbage being released right now, do we really care?
Honestly, outside of what I mentioned above and some balance units I'm not sure what I would want them to release right now. Dialing CSM up to current SM levels of lethality might fix some issues, but I don't really think it's good for the game in general to be like that.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly based on the fact we have all this garbage being released right now, do we really care?
Honestly, outside of what I mentioned above and some balance units I'm not sure what I would want them to release right now. Dialing CSM up to current SM levels of lethality might fix some issues, but I don't really think it's good for the game in general to be like that.
Honestly,i don't want to be dialed to that level. Simply because that get's to be the new standard then and we get 6-7th ed Arms race again.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly based on the fact we have all this garbage being released right now, do we really care?
Honestly, outside of what I mentioned above and some balance units I'm not sure what I would want them to release right now. Dialing CSM up to current SM levels of lethality might fix some issues, but I don't really think it's good for the game in general to be like that.
Honestly,i don't want to be dialed to that level. Simply because that get's to be the new standard then and we get 6-7th ed Arms race again.
The core of the Marine codex is, at the moment, decent for a start. I'd personally remove the table chart thing from the Iron Hands so they're just a two parter, but otherwise, outside Crimson Fists and Salamanders (which for some reason all of you like even though they're really bad), the traits are decently balanced themselves. Then we just need some reworking of the successor traits (lol nobody is going to use the Rapid Assault one at all).
The problem is the Supplements adding an army's worth of fething Stratagems, Relics, and Warlord traits. Cut out half the Warlord traits, leave just four relics (one range, one melee, one armor, and one...whatever is fine to compliment the current number of core relics that exist), and go ahead and get rid of all but 5 of the Stratagems. Oh and leave the Psyker powers like the current Chaplain chants and everybody gets one. Maybe two, one for support/defense and one for offense.
You cut all that bloat, consolidate the Angels Marines, leave just a few unique units for everyone, and suddenly everything is a lot easier to balance. Then GW can just slowly add rules and/or units during campaigns and pace things down. Unfortunately GW will likely never listen to my advice and we will keep getting what has been happening since the end of 3rd/4th: quick rules bloat and/or overpowered crap.
For Chaos Marines, we all know I want to destroy everything and start from scratch. It should be about the Legions, first and only. We need rules that actually represent as such.
).
. But this is me, hating the "we are actually loyalists playing the long game" idea that came up after the 
