I think because I wasn't really expecting it, the Tempestus stuff seems the most exciting. Having put it off for years I am tempted to go buy a start collecting box tomorrow.
Tau will probably be the most powerful but I think thats a function of the internal strengths of the Tau Codex. Not obvious to me GSC or Guard got things which will fix their fundamental issues at the moment. Not spent a lot of time thinking about it though.
Wasn't all that excited for this, but both the vanilla Guard and Tempestus previews have won me over big time. Both +6" on hellguns and +1AP on all guns are a pretty big deal for me. Choices, choices...
Also looking forward to putting together something fitting for my tank legion, liking the idea of running two tank aces.
I have high hopes (could be hubris) for the upcoming Imperial Knights book now.
The fluff will most likely take a dump on Guard, which is pretty much the norm with GW, but these rules more than make up for it for me personally.
While I think the +6" range is the real winner and will be the one you see most thanks to finally being able to DS and double tap, the +1 AP combined with the Valk/Vendetta deployment strat also seems like a fun/viable option if your opponent doesn't have too many area denial ability units on the board.
Seeing Guard get useful bonuses gives me hope that the Genestealer Cult side of of the book won't be a total bust.
Depending on what custom creed bonuses they let us choose from, there's a couple combinations that would be better than the originals — but I'm wary after seeing them dedicate a new creed that only affects the magus. Still, the possibility of adding +1 charge or +1 strength is enticing.
If they're still so worried about genestealers with creeds unbalancing the faction, they could make an Adaptive Physiology/Tank Ace equivalent to give a cult creed to a unit of Purestrain Genestealers. I'd at least be tempted to take Purestrains in that case, but at the moment there isn't a good reason to take genestealers in a Genestealer Cult detachment. Realistically, we'll probably just get another strategem for them. With any luck, it will at least be more useful than The First Curse.
That new Prepared Ambush strategem at least shows they're thinking about units that have to deepstrike over 12" away. I'll feel a little better if we get a couple more tools to help with that, but I really just don't know what to expect in this book. I suppose the reveals are coming tomorrow anyways, so we won't have to wait much longer to find out
Not seeing excitement for GSC as of yet. Although truthfully they didn't need to much. Psychic spells continuing for creeds as nids did with hive fleets is neat though.
Keramory wrote: Not seeing excitement for GSC as of yet. Although truthfully they didn't need to much.
Actually, we need a lot.
Our best units were nerfed in CA. Our core mechanic of Cult Ambush is directly countered by 12" no deep strike bubbles and stratagems like Auspex scan which are more frequently found. Cult is bottom of the barrel without Tyranid allies.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Does anyone know how these "you can Deep Strike within 6" bro" abilities work with the 12" no DS bubbles? Does the no DS rule take precedent?
A crafty rules lawyer will claim you cannot, but if you start them inside the Valk during deployment they can't stop you regardless.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Does anyone know how these "you can Deep Strike within 6" bro" abilities work with the 12" no DS bubbles? Does the no DS rule take precedent?
There was an FAQ in 2018 saying that directly opposing abilites cancelled wach other out. The the Marines FAQ came out and said no, Infiltrators always take precedence regardless and allways force you more than 12" away, no matter how much it doesn't make sense.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Does anyone know how these "you can Deep Strike within 6" bro" abilities work with the 12" no DS bubbles? Does the no DS rule take precedent?
So this rule isn't a deepstrike its a modification of a disembark after moving rule valkyries have. Valks let you disembark after moving, but you have to set up more than 9" away, AND if the valk wasn't in hover move (IE moved 20" or more and you didn't get out before the valk moved) you must roll a die for each model disembarking on a 1 a model is slain. The strategem shown merely changes the rule of this disembark to be 5" and no need to roll to see if any one dies.
In regards to actual deep striking, the 12" rule takes precedence currently.
BrookM wrote: he fluff will most likely take a dump on Guard, which is pretty much the norm with GW, but these rules more than make up for it for me personally.
Anyone else a little put off by how specific the MT subfactions are? Not just one specific homeworld, but the exact regiment number as well? Or am I missing some background about how each homeworld only has one regiment number or something?
The fact that the MT regiment names are basically just going down the Greek Alphabet makes me think that maybe these aren't homeworlds at all but instead, I don't know, Schola Progenium departments or something. Like, Schola Progenium Alpha has several orphanage networks throughout the Imperium, so does Schola Progenium Beta, Gamma, Delta and so on. The regiment number is indicating which particular institution inside their department they were brought up in. I mean, the fluff text for the "Iotan Gorgonnes" specifically mentions they were raised on a world called "Vedill I".
Perfect Organism wrote: Anyone else a little put off by how specific the MT subfactions are? Not just one specific homeworld, but the exact regiment number as well? Or am I missing some background about how each homeworld only has one regiment number or something?
They aren't "homeworlds".
It's the world where the Schola Progenium's "Schola Tempestus" that trains their recruits is based. The regiment numbers are, per the Tempestus book(p10), the numbers of the training group that they were in...and death rates are extremely high during the training process.
It probably won't end up as the meta faction, but I am really liking the mechanized infantry scion faction. No penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons (volley guns only, but I have a soft spot for them), +1 to attack rolls when you leave a transport (so plasma cannot explode in your face unless you have negatives to hit), and the warlord trait gives voice of command a 24" base range and it can be used from within a transport without burning cp. Makes me kind pretty happy that the next models I have lined up to paint are some scions.
I can't but think the PA5 setting could have made for a good online worldwide campaign, with the various factions competing for territory and the hearts and minds of the various worlds, and (so far) a noticeable absence of Marines. Might have made for less lopsided player numbers.
Perfect Organism wrote:Anyone else a little put off by how specific the MT subfactions are? Not just one specific homeworld, but the exact regiment number as well? Or am I missing some background about how each homeworld only has one regiment number or something?
The specific factions are just ones they ripped out of the old book. Hopefully they’ll have something allowing one to replace the regiment with someone’s custom regiment like Blood Angels and their successors. Each training facility trains out war orphans. If there are enough, a new regiment is made. We don’t know the size of regiments, but they could range from 100 to 500 people, at least. If there aren’t enough progena, the new troopers are sent to reinforce an existing regiment.
Esmer wrote:The fact that the MT regiment names are basically just going down the Greek Alphabet makes me think that maybe these aren't homeworlds at all but instead, I don't know, Schola Progenium departments or something. Like, Schola Progenium Alpha has several orphanage networks throughout the Imperium, so does Schola Progenium Beta, Gamma, Delta and so on. The regiment number is indicating which particular institution inside their department they were brought up in. I mean, the fluff text for the "Iotan Gorgonnes" specifically mentions they were raised on a world called "Vedill I".
Could be just my crazy headcanon though.
There are multiple regiment with the same Greek designation, such as the Alphic Hydras and the Alphic Lions. The number is just a batch number. If there are enough new troopers in a training batch, a new regiment is made. If the batch isn’t big enough, the new troopers are sent to reinforce an existing regiment.
All the stuff so far looks pretty good, at least for Tau Guard and Scions, the GSC I agree feel a bit eh. I'm pretty excited and anyone saying this looks marines level of broken, I'd like a little of what they got, as it must be some good stuff. This is the kind of exciting releases should be, marines are a poster child for what not to do to drive up a faction as they went over board.
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xeen wrote: I think the 2 for 1 casualties will prove to be really good. Isn’t there an Assassin that reduces LD?
I bet you that scions trait will be a sleeper power one. It isn't out of hand strong but in the right hands using morale to push through wounds you get no save from could be very strong for promising either dead units without any recourse of any kind of save, force spending of command points/use strats or psychic power to safe guard squads and perhaps stick to cover hide out of range or otherwise alter their game plan from the risk of that doctrine and what it can do.
You can't under estimate how strong it can be to force the other player to change up what they need to do, waste CP or risk un wanted losses on what would usually be just a small inconvenience can now risk a whole squad wipe or heavy damage to the point it's useless. It's easy to see the benefit or extra range, extra AP, extra hits, etc. I like the thinking nature of this doctrine as it really forces proper target priority and anything that makes someone learn and isn't just an easy point and click I think is a net gain for the game as a whole.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Based on the fact all the weapons are short ranged, taking Eagles is stupid over Gorgonnes seems dumb.
Also again feth the rules writers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Doesn't matter though you're gonna be taking Dragons. It solves the actual issue with Scions.
Considering you want to be in half range with most of those weapons i find eagles to be the superior choice.
You need to actually get within half range though. It's not that likely compared to just getting closest target, which Scions would want. So basically you would need two targets that would be in half range where the one you REALLY want to target is further. That's a lot of requirements whereas one just wants the closest target. Far more generalist for the same effect.
alextroy wrote: With over a page of Errata (starts on page 72 and next section is on Page 74) it will be interesting to see exactly what is in the Errata section.
GSC players will have to hope it include a revision to what units get Cult Traits.
That seems a stretch, even for GW's vague guidelines of what constitutes 'errata.'
Its usually just monkeying with the word salad, one sentence at a time, or 'oh, yeah, we totally forgot this bit.'
Much as I might like buffs for my IG and Stormtroopers, this is all starting to look increasingly like 7E style powerbloat in the worst way, and I don't think the best way to represent lots of these factions is just through more ways to directly enhance the killing capability of stuff.
Also, I agree on the count that it's odd that GW is getting into specific MT regiments for bonus rules, this sort of micro differentiation done with very powerful rules is getting to be more than a wee bit silly.
So, they push so much through the net, and in fact leave some with the net being the only way to get some the rules, like the assassins rules for instance at this point, yet they decide to errata into the book to help people without net ? How did those netless people ever keep abreast of things up to this point then ? I'm actually pretty curious to see whats in this errata now.
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Vaktathi wrote: Much as I might like buffs for my IG and Stormtroopers, this is all starting to look increasingly like 7E style powerbloat in the worst way, and I don't think the best way to represent lots of these factions is just through more ways to directly enhance the killing capability of stuff.
Also, I agree on the count that it's odd that GW is getting into specific MT regiments for bonus rules, this sort of micro differentiation done with very powerful rules is getting to be more than a wee bit silly.
It's just now starting to get silly ? It's been heading this way for awhile now. I won't even say begun these bloat wars have, as we're already in the middle of it at this point.
It might just be the ancient changes to psychic onslaught and the errata to A Plan Generations in the Making (remember the times people thought two faction having the same strat, but one being better/cheaper was unacceptable ).
Sunny Side Up wrote: It might just be the ancient changes to psychic onslaught and the errata to A Plan Generations in the Making (remember the times people thought two faction having the same strat, but one being better/cheaper was unacceptable ).
Well many a meta has shifted and gw's rule standard dropped immensly over time.
Vaktathi wrote: Much as I might like buffs for my IG and Stormtroopers, this is all starting to look increasingly like 7E style powerbloat in the worst way, and I don't think the best way to represent lots of these factions is just through more ways to directly enhance the killing capability of stuff.
I wouldn't worry so much. When Codex Guard 2.0 hits all this stuff will be rolled into it.
Vaktathi wrote: Much as I might like buffs for my IG and Stormtroopers, this is all starting to look increasingly like 7E style powerbloat in the worst way, and I don't think the best way to represent lots of these factions is just through more ways to directly enhance the killing capability of stuff.
I wouldn't worry so much. When Codex Guard 2.0 hits all this stuff will be rolled into it.
New codex at one point is inevitable. It is "print money" button.
Question isn't if but when. You really think gw decides not to get easy money with no new codexes? Recycling codexes been part of business model like 16 years. Ain't stopping anytime soon. Keep on living in fantasy land where even after 20 year you use same codex
Sure, there'll be a handful this year, and another handful next year, etc..usually tied to miniature releases. And Codexes written around the same 2-3 month period will likely share similar ideas that were en vogue with the writers at that time.
But it's even more ridiculous that GW somehow set (and managed to hit) a "new balance / power-level" underpinned by a consistent design philosophy for 15+ Codexes, then also went back and wrote some 9-ish campaign books that would pre-view that new philosophy / game-power-level but for some reason NOT bring armies up to that level. Than started releasing the first of 15+ consistently balanced and designed new 2.0 Codexes with Marines, as well as the first PA books that would "preview" that new standard for other armies, but not match it for some reason. And then roll out that entire thing in the coming year or two.
GW is writing these books largely one or two at a time. The next Codex or two might or might not share similarities with the new Marine book, but it won't be long before staff changes again, new ideas come in, etc.. and the "philosophy" changes again, probably before the summer is over. And certainly future books wont be meticulously balanced to meet the Marine Codex, both because GW hasn't meticulously balanced in the past and because the Marine book is an enormous outlier to begin with.
And on top of that, the PA books aren't part of some masterplan to either balance against Marine 2.0 and much less "not-balance-against-Marines-2.0-but-give-a-preview-of-the-eventual-balanced-Codex-2.0"-Master series. They are just a dump of rules they throw together in a week or two alongside writing new Codexes, and new AoS stuff and perhaps working on 9th Edition or the next version of Apocalypse or whatever.
Vaktathi wrote: Much as I might like buffs for my IG and Stormtroopers, this is all starting to look increasingly like 7E style powerbloat in the worst way, and I don't think the best way to represent lots of these factions is just through more ways to directly enhance the killing capability of stuff.
I liked the idea at first but the sheer number of chapters, regiments etc. available seems to be getting out of hand.
You know that for a fact, do you? And I don't particularly care if they've got a "II" label on them like the Chaos Codex currently does, more that the changes in these PA books will be wrapped up into whatever the next Codex for each force is.
Imateria wrote: So, looking at the contents page, no relics and warlord traits for Genestealer Cults and Guard, just Tau and Scions. Oh, and a page of Errata for GSC.
Damn, that's even less for the Guard than I anticipated. So basically they're getting stratagems and a new doctrines system, and that's it?
Imateria wrote: So, looking at the contents page, no relics and warlord traits for Genestealer Cults and Guard, just Tau and Scions. Oh, and a page of Errata for GSC.
Damn, that's even less for the Guard than I anticipated. So basically they're getting stratagems and a new doctrines system, and that's it?
Yup, it's largely back to AOS for me. Should of known better to expect something. Largely it's meh, the only real winners in the book are ridge runners and bladed cog with their new psychic power.
I just read the Tau review... There is a stratagem to permanently boost the BS of Crisis teams to 3+, but it is only for Farsight Enclaves... How I wish that was available for all Septs!
I'm happy to get something for both my top 2 armies (Tau and IG) but a bit disappointed they didn't give GSC more love as the faster they get out of their "hurr durr Mad Max" stolen aesthetic the better. I might just rip those pages out of the book and declare them dead.
Reading goonhammers review of gsc was kinda dissaponting
No new relics or warlord traits, no special tank ace/adaptive physiology ability, subpar custom creeds, powers restricted to original creeds, and a few "okay" strategems.
Acolytes advance and charge is nice though. Even less of a reason to run purestrain though lol
This is the nail in the coffin for 8th for me. Too much killing, not enough on the board tactics (besides lining up your super combo).
I thought marines were bad and maybe GW would try to pull them back but all of this craziness for the rest of the armies just means GW honestly has checked out at this point.
I was on the fence about buying a new grey knight army and the fun of putting that on the table is kind of gone for me. Everything is a glass cannon now and if you can't land and kill your points in a turn you sure as hell aren't going to survive the counter attack.
Spamming 6 commanders, yvaraahs with max shots, oh my god the missile pods, max shot/damage tanks, valkries acting as thunder fire cannons, deepstriking plasma rapid firing all over the place, ap and ignore cover everywhere, combo stacking or else, (sorry GSC, it's not your fault)....
A small tweak to the power of marines (basic doctrines and litanies with new psychic powers would have been grand, basically the codex without the supplements) and the game would have been in a great place. Supplements + PA are creating a game that I don't want to play (too many rules, from too many sources, with too many FAQs, breaking too many basic rules, killing too much, cover doesn't matter, LOS doesn't matter, positioning barely matters...)
It's been a fun couple years to get back into the hobby but I think PA has killed it for me. Damn shame because the models are better than they've ever been, the community was fun and growing, and I was just starting to learn to enjoy painting...
Personally, I don't really like 40k as a ruleset that much either, the thing that keeps bringing me back to 40k is how much I enjoy the fluff, the BL novels and the PC games. And of course there's always Kill Team if you want to play a quick game with no comically escalating Special Rules arms race.
bananathug wrote: This is the nail in the coffin for 8th for me. Too much killing, not enough on the board tactics (besides lining up your super combo).
I thought marines were bad and maybe GW would try to pull them back but all of this craziness for the rest of the armies just means GW honestly has checked out at this point.
I was on the fence about buying a new grey knight army and the fun of putting that on the table is kind of gone for me. Everything is a glass cannon now and if you can't land and kill your points in a turn you sure as hell aren't going to survive the counter attack.
Spamming 6 commanders, yvaraahs with max shots, oh my god the missile pods, max shot/damage tanks, valkries acting as thunder fire cannons, deepstriking plasma rapid firing all over the place, ap and ignore cover everywhere, combo stacking or else, (sorry GSC, it's not your fault)....
A small tweak to the power of marines (basic doctrines and litanies with new psychic powers would have been grand, basically the codex without the supplements) and the game would have been in a great place. Supplements + PA are creating a game that I don't want to play (too many rules, from too many sources, with too many FAQs, breaking too many basic rules, killing too much, cover doesn't matter, LOS doesn't matter, positioning barely matters...)
It's been a fun couple years to get back into the hobby but I think PA has killed it for me. Damn shame because the models are better than they've ever been, the community was fun and growing, and I was just starting to learn to enjoy painting...
Luckily the new streamlining 9th is right around the corner so we can go round the merry go round again.
ugh, even seeing the direct utility of a lot of this stuff for lists and models I like to run, it's all just screaming ugly power bloat to me in the worst way. Increasingly I'm thinking I'd much prefer the game without faction traits or stratagems entirely. The alpha strike potential of the game is just going to spike even more with this release, on top of the absurdity of the recent Space Marine stuff.
Dysartes wrote: I'm amused that the Scions don't get a name generator...
By the fluff of the old codex, Progena are re-named from a list of Imperial heroes. That’s probably why. So just pick a cool name from your favorite book (NOT CHAOS OR XENO) and use that.
Dysartes wrote: I'm amused that the Scions don't get a name generator...
By the fluff of the old codex, Progena are re-named from a list of Imperial heroes. That’s probably why. So just pick a cool name from your favorite book (NOT CHAOS OR XENO) and use that.
Despite the rules bloat and power creep for everyone, most of these extras just add more utility to many units.
Now for those saying this is a step too far, what makes this too far and not all the stuff before it ? If anything this is mostly all reasonable , utility and buffing some short comings. I'd say for the Tau and IG these buffs are mostly reasonable with maybe a couple outliers. If Marines had gotten buffs like this they wouldn't be the bugbear they are now to tackle and wouldn't have say the IH game state we now live in.
So why is this the step too far exactly ? This is the 5th book of the bloat train and we still have some more on the way.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Despite the rules bloat and power creep for everyone, most of these extras just add more utility to many units.
Now for those saying this is a step too far, what makes this too far and not all the stuff before it ? If anything this is mostly all reasonable , utility and buffing some short comings. I'd say for the Tau and IG these buffs are mostly reasonable with maybe a couple outliers. If Marines had gotten buffs like this they wouldn't be the bugbear they are now to tackle and wouldn't have say the IH game state we now live in.
So why is this the step too far exactly ? This is the 5th book of the bloat train and we still have some more on the way.
I've been against the Supplements onwards because of clear power creep and bloat.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Despite the rules bloat and power creep for everyone, most of these extras just add more utility to many units.
Now for those saying this is a step too far, what makes this too far and not all the stuff before it ? If anything this is mostly all reasonable , utility and buffing some short comings. I'd say for the Tau and IG these buffs are mostly reasonable with maybe a couple outliers. If Marines had gotten buffs like this they wouldn't be the bugbear they are now to tackle and wouldn't have say the IH game state we now live in.
So why is this the step too far exactly ? This is the 5th book of the bloat train and we still have some more on the way.
I've been against the Supplements onwards because of clear power creep and bloat.
I know you, but others seem to be like " This is it ! Now it's off the chain ! " You have been consistent as disliking it from the get go. Just like I've agreed and said this is obnoxious and pretty much what they did in 7th that led to the crap show we had at the end there. It's clear that this is the direction and it'll only keep growing. I was just curious as to why this is the book too far for some when its gone so bloated before this.
So here's what I have noticed since 8th edition started.
All of the editions before 8th has been a convoluted mess, I think most can agree to. GW wanted to consolidate and make the game easier to play, and they have done that for the most part. But consider what they've done to achieve that.
8th edition started with the Index, and they were barebones. If your goal is to create a competitive and also fun and somewhat balanced game, you have to take babysteps to get there.
So Index sets the bones of the game. It gives GW time to see how the game functions at the most basic level.
Then the Codex itself comes out. The codex takes what was in the index, and makes it more fleshed out. Then the game goes through several balance "patches" before...
PA is released and it adds another layer to the game. This time it can take a focus on what the army needed and what people complained about. T'au is a great example of that. Crisis Suits are better. Things like Rail Rifles might be good. etc etc.
It's not like GW had these ideas waiting in the wings. They've been essentially using us as Beta testers for the game so they can craft it into something better. It's not a bad idea if your goal is to create something that will last.
Yes but while this is a fine theory, we've seen GW change dramatic direction at the drop of a hat. As well, while testing is good,
I'd be much happier to beta test for them for free as opposed to have to be buying half baked product to test their theory on things just to probably have them do the more consistent thing they do and scrap it all, call no joy and just start the whole process again. Which judging by how they usually operate is the far more likely outcome.
BrianDavion wrote: if you don't like it don't buy it, go buy something you like instead.
Dude, come on, the love it or leave it is trite and sad.
I said, I liked the buffs, I'm just saying I don't like it if this is a paid beta to be sold everything all over again once they bloat to death.
You can both love a game and hate their direction or process. However if you want to compete you have to buy these, maybe not for all the factions but for marines ? Yes, for guard its a straight power jump. So all you're really saying is if you don't like it don't play.
Do you actually find the burn and churn consumer friendly ?
BrianDavion wrote: if you don't like it don't buy it, go buy something you like instead.
Dude, come on, the love it or leave it is trite and sad.
I said, I liked the buffs, I'm just saying I don't like it if this is a paid beta to be sold everything all over again once they bloat to death.
You can both love a game and hate their direction or process. However if you want to compete you have to buy these, maybe not for all the factions but for marines ? Yes, for guard its a straight power jump. So all you're really saying is if you don't like it don't play.
Do you actually find the burn and churn consumer friendly ?
Are you implying I should pirate ?
I'd say Faith and Fury is pretty essential for csm in the current meta (and yeah that includes casual games).
Especially if you want a hope in hell of running a good mono legion list. (And one that actually PLAYS like the particular legion in question).
A once in awhile thing sure, but the fact remains people will use them, regardless. I didn't even say I don't like the buffs I just don't like being a paid beta to then have to buy it all again when it implodes and in the meantime for who I'll play I need to keep up as even for casual some of these prove to be necessary.
Unless I'll want to be tying one arm behind my back. As I am sure people would choose not to play me if I tried to say they could never use their new things because I don't like the GW practice. This isn't just a model or two or a rule or two its large changes, such as doctrines, relics, strats and for some even new units outright. I don't think its hard to predict
This is all wild off topic though. I was just commenting on the theory of why the game is going this route and my feelings of it. Like it or not these are mandatory for most players and not campaign books despite what they label them as. I can call a bat a couch but that doesn't make it one.
bananathug wrote: This is the nail in the coffin for 8th for me. Too much killing, not enough on the board tactics (besides lining up your super combo).
I thought marines were bad and maybe GW would try to pull them back but all of this craziness for the rest of the armies just means GW honestly has checked out at this point.
I was on the fence about buying a new grey knight army and the fun of putting that on the table is kind of gone for me. Everything is a glass cannon now and if you can't land and kill your points in a turn you sure as hell aren't going to survive the counter attack.
Spamming 6 commanders, yvaraahs with max shots, oh my god the missile pods, max shot/damage tanks, valkries acting as thunder fire cannons, deepstriking plasma rapid firing all over the place, ap and ignore cover everywhere, combo stacking or else, (sorry GSC, it's not your fault)....
A small tweak to the power of marines (basic doctrines and litanies with new psychic powers would have been grand, basically the codex without the supplements) and the game would have been in a great place. Supplements + PA are creating a game that I don't want to play (too many rules, from too many sources, with too many FAQs, breaking too many basic rules, killing too much, cover doesn't matter, LOS doesn't matter, positioning barely matters...)
It's been a fun couple years to get back into the hobby but I think PA has killed it for me. Damn shame because the models are better than they've ever been, the community was fun and growing, and I was just starting to learn to enjoy painting...
Luckily the new streamlining 9th is right around the corner so we can go round the merry go round again.
All of the editions before 8th has been a convoluted mess, I think most can agree to. GW wanted to consolidate and make the game easier to play, and they have done that for the most part. But consider what they've done to achieve that.
8th edition started with the Index, and they were barebones. If your goal is to create a competitive and also fun and somewhat balanced game, you have to take babysteps to get there.
So Index sets the bones of the game. It gives GW time to see how the game functions at the most basic level.
Then the Codex itself comes out. The codex takes what was in the index, and makes it more fleshed out. Then the game goes through several balance "patches" before...
PA is released and it adds another layer to the game. This time it can take a focus on what the army needed and what people complained about. T'au is a great example of that. Crisis Suits are better. Things like Rail Rifles might be good. etc etc.
It's not like GW had these ideas waiting in the wings. They've been essentially using us as Beta testers for the game so they can craft it into something better. It's not a bad idea if your goal is to create something that will last.
A) you are giving them too much credit
B) gw stuff never lasts. Gw doesn't do fine tweaks to perfection but things get total changes constantly. Next codex can ignore all from past throwing good away alongside bad and start from zero again
BrianDavion wrote: if you don't like it don't buy it, go buy something you like instead.
Dude, come on, the love it or leave it is trite and sad.
I said, I liked the buffs, I'm just saying I don't like it if this is a paid beta to be sold everything all over again once they bloat to death.
You can both love a game and hate their direction or process. However if you want to compete you have to buy these, maybe not for all the factions but for marines ? Yes, for guard its a straight power jump. So all you're really saying is if you don't like it don't play.
Do you actually find the burn and churn consumer friendly ?
Are you implying I should pirate ?
no, I'm saying if you don't like it, don't reward them for the behavior. don't use it, and if you don't like it but other people are using the rules go play another game. because if you rush out and buy it, GW is rewarded for it. if you buy it anyway well... you're like that person who complains about loot boxes in a MMO, while buying 500 dollars worth of them for a crack at that new item.
I love the idea of PA. Another person’s ‘bloat’ is my ‘complexity’ I guess. It is money hungry but this isn’t new for GW. They are one of the most successful British companies of recent times for a reason.
The only thing I wished they did differently in PA is give all factions equal love in terms of models and rules. Some factions have obviously had favouritism.
PA6 and Thraka next and I’m really interested to see if SW get no new character (something I find very unlikely but at the same time it will make clear the disparity in how GW treats it’s poster boys compared to other factions). Obviously I’m also interested in the green skin rules. Hopefully my biker gang, mad max style army gets a boost. I love having more choices so I’d quite like these ‘not-warlord traits’ for units too ala Adaptive Physiology. Do any of the reliable French guys have rumours on the next book? Will there be a boxed set?
BrianDavion wrote: if you don't like it don't buy it, go buy something you like instead.
Dude, come on, the love it or leave it is trite and sad.
I said, I liked the buffs, I'm just saying I don't like it if this is a paid beta to be sold everything all over again once they bloat to death.
You can both love a game and hate their direction or process. However if you want to compete you have to buy these, maybe not for all the factions but for marines ? Yes, for guard its a straight power jump. So all you're really saying is if you don't like it don't play.
Do you actually find the burn and churn consumer friendly ?
Are you implying I should pirate ?
no, I'm saying if you don't like it, don't reward them for the behavior. don't use it, and if you don't like it but other people are using the rules go play another game. because if you rush out and buy it, GW is rewarded for it. if you buy it anyway well... you're like that person who complains about loot boxes in a MMO, while buying 500 dollars worth of them for a crack at that new item.
I have friends who play the game, I want to play the game with them, I have to keep up unless I want to constantly be on the back foot. Ergo, I have to get these books. I mean don't buy it works for like a single model, or a lateral change releases, doesn't work for this when I have to engage doctrine marines and the like on the regular. Even in casual levels they are just pretty far above my own power level without the book, it's not a surprise though its what they baked into the system.
Your comparison is not only lame it's also false, I'm like the guy who is forced to buy a DLC I don't like because they lock advancement behind it and has friends who I play with who will buy it. My only choice is buy and play or just walk away and say see ya next edition. If all these were is campaign books with lateral differences I'd gladly ignore them, but they know that and don't make them that way for a reason.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Yes but while this is a fine theory, we've seen GW change dramatic direction at the drop of a hat. As well, while testing is good,
I'd be much happier to beta test for them for free as opposed to have to be buying half baked product to test their theory on things just to probably have them do the more consistent thing they do and scrap it all, call no joy and just start the whole process again. Which judging by how they usually operate is the far more likely outcome.
I see this argument all the time and just don't get it. GW is not omniscient, it is impossible to know exactly how balanced thousands of rules and hundreds of units will be. You can tweek things with points changes but at some point they have to bring out new rules to stop all eldar players only using alaitoc flyers and to allow thousand sons to not have to soup etc.
Also I can't imagine any large company giving away books for free, for several years.
I for one am quite excited by PA5. It's given me exactly what I wanted for my IG, which is the ability to play them in new ways without cheesing my way through.
Armoured companies look like they could be fun to run again, mechanised Scions, even just scions with meltas and flamers have a purpose.
The -1 Ap bonus combined with the +1 to wound might even make grenade launchers almost viable. Still nowhere near as good as plasma, but for the sake of variety and rule of cool, playable without handicapping yourself.
Supplements might be just more bloat for competitive players, but for non-competitive people like me, it gives me flavour to add to my army.
I think that whoever has been doing IG rules for 8th clearly enjoys playing them themselves.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I love the idea of PA. Another person’s ‘bloat’ is my ‘complexity’ I guess. It is money hungry but this isn’t new for GW. They are one of the most successful British companies of recent times for a reason.
The only thing I wished they did differently in PA is give all factions equal love in terms of models and rules. Some factions have obviously had favouritism.
PA6 and Thraka next and I’m really interested to see if SW get no new character (something I find very unlikely but at the same time it will make clear the disparity in how GW treats it’s poster boys compared to other factions). Obviously I’m also interested in the green skin rules. Hopefully my biker gang, mad max style army gets a boost. I love having more choices so I’d quite like these ‘not-warlord traits’ for units too ala Adaptive Physiology. Do any of the reliable French guys have rumours on the next book? Will there be a boxed set?
While I appreciate the power, it isn't complex it's just bits and pieces from other in game assets ported to other factions that didn't already have them. With maybe a small tweak here or there and some new strats that give +1 to this, -1 to that , half this, ignore that. It's not really complex its just buffs. While I can appreciate them for my factions, I'm not blind to what it is and why I'm getting it.
The only reason I say any of this is in the hopes people on the fence actually know what GW is doing. Not everyone has played the game forever and see's their patterns. It's also important to know what you are buying and they are power jumps, not campaigns and not really mandatory unless you like being behind the 8 ball in most games. Which, assuming Grey Knights players feelings , isn't all that fun.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Yes but while this is a fine theory, we've seen GW change dramatic direction at the drop of a hat. As well, while testing is good,
I'd be much happier to beta test for them for free as opposed to have to be buying half baked product to test their theory on things just to probably have them do the more consistent thing they do and scrap it all, call no joy and just start the whole process again. Which judging by how they usually operate is the far more likely outcome.
I see this argument all the time and just don't get it. GW is not omniscient, it is impossible to know exactly how balanced thousands of rules and hundreds of units will be. You can tweek things with points changes but at some point they have to bring out new rules to stop all eldar players only using alaitoc flyers and to allow thousand sons to not have to soup etc.
Also I can't imagine any large company giving away books for free, for several years.
You don't need to be Nostrildomus to see and know that if you don't bloat thousands of rules all over the place it's much easier to find balance. At this point, assuming balance is the name of the game is silly. They want to power up people, so people feel excited and buy the books, and expand their collections or start new ones. Hype sells. They aren't gods of planning but neither do they have to be. As well plenty of companies put out beta rules for free to try things out before they go into full production or settle on a final game state to push. GW is not the hungry orphan child asking please sir may I have some more ?
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Sentineil wrote: I for one am quite excited by PA5. It's given me exactly what I wanted for my IG, which is the ability to play them in new ways without cheesing my way through.
Armoured companies look like they could be fun to run again, mechanised Scions, even just scions with meltas and flamers have a purpose.
The -1 Ap bonus combined with the +1 to wound might even make grenade launchers almost viable. Still nowhere near as good as plasma, but for the sake of variety and rule of cool, playable without handicapping yourself.
Supplements might be just more bloat for competitive players, but for non-competitive people like me, it gives me flavour to add to my army.
I think that whoever has been doing IG rules for 8th clearly enjoys playing them themselves.
I had to quote just to say this is right on. The armored forces did get a lot of love. Like one of my honorable mentions is sentinels, for me I only have armored sentinels and they got some good stuff in this release so I'm thrilled.
An Actual Englishman wrote: PA6 and Thraka next and I’m really interested to see if SW get no new character (something I find very unlikely but at the same time it will make clear the disparity in how GW treats it’s poster boys compared to other factions). Obviously I’m also interested in the green skin rules. Hopefully my biker gang, mad max style army gets a boost. I love having more choices so I’d quite like these ‘not-warlord traits’ for units too ala Adaptive Physiology. Do any of the reliable French guys have rumours on the next book? Will there be a boxed set?
Given we've seeing the Kelermorph finally get an individual release alongside TGG, what'll your position be if the SW Lieutenant finally gets a blister release alongside Saga, as opposed to being in a big boxed set and a SC set?
An Actual Englishman wrote: I love the idea of PA. Another person’s ‘bloat’ is my ‘complexity’ I guess. It is money hungry but this isn’t new for GW. They are one of the most successful British companies of recent times for a reason.
The only thing I wished they did differently in PA is give all factions equal love in terms of models and rules. Some factions have obviously had favouritism.
PA6 and Thraka next and I’m really interested to see if SW get no new character (something I find very unlikely but at the same time it will make clear the disparity in how GW treats it’s poster boys compared to other factions). Obviously I’m also interested in the green skin rules. Hopefully my biker gang, mad max style army gets a boost. I love having more choices so I’d quite like these ‘not-warlord traits’ for units too ala Adaptive Physiology. Do any of the reliable French guys have rumours on the next book? Will there be a boxed set?
Honestly I'm in the same boat, I like the additional stuff. there sometimes I think GW misses the mark, but by and large I love having options. new ways to play a game, UNPREDIABILITY.
if you and I sit down for a game, I want both our armies to do well, I want us to each have options (to the point where everyone's army feels slightly differant) and I want to have FUN. Some of the people on this forum I don't think I'd wanna play with at all. for what it's worth AAE, we occasionally but heads but I think we both want the same thing from the game.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Yes but while this is a fine theory, we've seen GW change dramatic direction at the drop of a hat. As well, while testing is good,
I'd be much happier to beta test for them for free as opposed to have to be buying half baked product to test their theory on things just to probably have them do the more consistent thing they do and scrap it all, call no joy and just start the whole process again. Which judging by how they usually operate is the far more likely outcome.
I see this argument all the time and just don't get it. GW is not omniscient, it is impossible to know exactly how balanced thousands of rules and hundreds of units will be. You can tweek things with points changes but at some point they have to bring out new rules to stop all eldar players only using alaitoc flyers and to allow thousand sons to not have to soup etc.
Also I can't imagine any large company giving away books for free, for several years.
Competent designers could do lot better though with testing, number crunching and not deliberately reseting things just to sell books.
Gw's idea of testing is give couple premade armies and ask how it went.
They clearly don't give finished text to new person(ie one who didn't write it) to read through since so much obvious errors is spotted instantly by others. If random player can spot those professionals should as well.
But then again gw staff aren't professionals nor is gw hiring based on skill. For gw what matters more than skill is how loud you shout waaaaagh or for the emperor.
tneva82 wrote:They clearly don't give finished text to new person(ie one who didn't write it) to read through since so much obvious errors is spotted instantly by others. If random player can spot those professionals should as well.
But then again gw staff aren't professionals nor is gw hiring based on skill. For gw what matters more than skill is how loud you shout waaaaagh or for the emperor
I feel like you're not exactly giving "random player" enough credit. He's not just a random guy, he's thousands of sets of eyes with different points of view and interpretations. The public will always be better at spotting flaws than any designer, be it a game, a car or a lamp. For 40k, given the release rate of books they in no way get to play multiple test games with every combination of factions, while on day 1 we the players will easily achieve it.
Play testing is, by necessity, a limited affair. Only some folks trusted to give honest feedback, and not go sharing materials etc. And given you want to release it at some point, your time window is finite.
Soon as it hits the shelves? Any play test time is eclipsed as thousands get their mitts on it.
Some feedback and comments will be constructive. Some sour grapes, removed - rule #1 please
AngryAngel80 wrote: Yes but while this is a fine theory, we've seen GW change dramatic direction at the drop of a hat. As well, while testing is good,
I'd be much happier to beta test for them for free as opposed to have to be buying half baked product to test their theory on things just to probably have them do the more consistent thing they do and scrap it all, call no joy and just start the whole process again. Which judging by how they usually operate is the far more likely outcome.
I see this argument all the time and just don't get it. GW is not omniscient, it is impossible to know exactly how balanced thousands of rules and hundreds of units will be. You can tweek things with points changes but at some point they have to bring out new rules to stop all eldar players only using alaitoc flyers and to allow thousand sons to not have to soup etc.
Also I can't imagine any large company giving away books for free, for several years.
It's shocking idea, I know, but they could try not releasing books and instead giving rules for free online if they know they're essentially just beta testing or figuring things out. Like the initial indexes, those could've been free PDFs and it wouldve smoothed the transition to codexes quite a bit as far as PR was concerned. Same for chapter approved. They're making record profits, don't pretend they couldn't afford for that to be a free update online as a PDF so its easily accessible. Not only for PR, but to make it widely accessible so all players are aware of it and actually using it. Think about the outrage people had for the latest Chapter approved where they paid $40 for a balance patch and it had glaring issues day one. If that was a free off people would've been annoyed but they would understand.
And to a degree, pyschic awakening and vigilus are this way too, but there's a lot more argument for them to be paid for when they have campaign rules and lore. I just wish they felt like they were worth the $40-50 they run, especially when Gw insists on hardback for so many of their books. I remember times in college where my books were cheaper than my 40k ones, and that's a bit concerning. The pyschic awakening books feel like $30 paperbacks, not really much more than that. Because in many ways they're a balance patch with some lore thrown in, they're not brand new codexes, unless you're playing marines and most likely admech of course.
But that's mainly just a gripe I have about GW's book situation. If they weren't often riddled with typos and errors that needed to be patched, perhaps they'd feel like more value. If GW either did that or lowered the cost people wouldn't balk as much when new books are released. Especially if the chapter approved was free.
tneva82 wrote:They clearly don't give finished text to new person(ie one who didn't write it) to read through since so much obvious errors is spotted instantly by others. If random player can spot those professionals should as well.
But then again gw staff aren't professionals nor is gw hiring based on skill. For gw what matters more than skill is how loud you shout waaaaagh or for the emperor
I feel like you're not exactly giving "random player" enough credit. He's not just a random guy, he's thousands of sets of eyes with different points of view and interpretations. The public will always be better at spotting flaws than any designer, be it a game, a car or a lamp. For 40k, given the release rate of books they in no way get to play multiple test games with every combination of factions, while on day 1 we the players will easily achieve it.
Then they shouldn't be releasing books at that rate and actually take care into what goes into their product, big think time
tneva82 wrote:They clearly don't give finished text to new person(ie one who didn't write it) to read through since so much obvious errors is spotted instantly by others. If random player can spot those professionals should as well.
But then again gw staff aren't professionals nor is gw hiring based on skill. For gw what matters more than skill is how loud you shout waaaaagh or for the emperor
I feel like you're not exactly giving "random player" enough credit. He's not just a random guy, he's thousands of sets of eyes with different points of view and interpretations. The public will always be better at spotting flaws than any designer, be it a game, a car or a lamp. For 40k, given the release rate of books they in no way get to play multiple test games with every combination of factions, while on day 1 we the players will easily achieve it.
Lol. I do not have thousands of eyes to help me yet i spot mistakes quickly. If i can do so could professional. But gw doesn't do things professionally. They don't have proper playtesting(they literally give premade lists so forget about seeing too cheap. Hard to say is stuff too cheap when you don't see costs...). And evidently they either don't give final version to anybody who hasn't written text or if they do they give to one who can't read. We aren't dealing even hard to spot errors but dirt simple ones. 55 pts basic troops indeed. Assault weapons that still don't work. Bybass rotate ion shield with heavy bolter. If gw claims they have professionals they are either lying or are idiots depending on do they believe claim or not.
Gw isn't professional game maker and it shows. Ability to shout waaagh is more important than professional writer's ability.
Don't give them credit on being professionals when they aren''t.
Any random player will know broken combos from leaks in no time as well. 40k isn't complex game and what's broken is seif evident. So either it's intentional or writer is just rando average fan putting in what he thinks is cool with zero thought about balance
tneva82 wrote:They clearly don't give finished text to new person(ie one who didn't write it) to read through since so much obvious errors is spotted instantly by others. If random player can spot those professionals should as well.
But then again gw staff aren't professionals nor is gw hiring based on skill. For gw what matters more than skill is how loud you shout waaaaagh or for the emperor
I feel like you're not exactly giving "random player" enough credit. He's not just a random guy, he's thousands of sets of eyes with different points of view and interpretations. The public will always be better at spotting flaws than any designer, be it a game, a car or a lamp. For 40k, given the release rate of books they in no way get to play multiple test games with every combination of factions, while on day 1 we the players will easily achieve it.
Lol. I do not have thousands of eyes to help me yet i spot mistakes quickly. If i can do so could professional. But gw doesn't do things professionally. They don't have proper playtesting(they literally give premade lists so forget about seeing too cheap. Hard to say is stuff too cheap when you don't see costs...). And evidently they either don't give final version to anybody who hasn't written text or if they do they give to one who can't read. We aren't dealing even hard to spot errors but dirt simple ones. 55 pts basic troops indeed. Assault weapons that still don't work. Bybass rotate ion shield with heavy bolter. If gw claims they have professionals they are either lying or are idiots depending on do they believe claim or not.
Gw isn't professional game maker and it shows. Ability to shout waaagh is more important than professional writer's ability.
Don't give them credit on being professionals when they aren''t.
Any random player will know broken combos from leaks in no time as well. 40k isn't complex game and what's broken is seif evident. So either it's intentional or writer is just rando average fan putting in what he thinks is cool with zero thought about balance
Get back on topic please, we get it, you don't like GW, move on.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It is on topic because it's related to the speed of the books being put out and the quality of them. It's pretty simple. Either defend them or don't.
What news or rumour content does it contain? Discussing the general quality of their publications isn't for in here.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It is on topic because it's related to the speed of the books being put out and the quality of them. It's pretty simple. Either defend them or don't.
What news or rumour content does it contain? Discussing the general quality of their publications isn't for in here.
Yes it is, otherwise there would be absolutely NO posts here besides the rumors and news and all threads would be locked.
The problem is that it's not really any more complex in most instances, allowing something to hit on 2's or automatically get max number of shots or count their AP/Damage as being one better really isn't adding depth, it's just adding direct attritional combat utility in the most straightforward way possible.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It is on topic because it's related to the speed of the books being put out and the quality of them. It's pretty simple. Either defend them or don't.
What news or rumour content does it contain? Discussing the general quality of their publications isn't for in here.
Yes it is, otherwise there would be absolutely NO posts here besides the rumors and news and all threads would be locked.
Imagine that, news and rumours threads in the news and rumours forum!
An Actual Englishman wrote: PA6 and Thraka next and I’m really interested to see if SW get no new character (something I find very unlikely but at the same time it will make clear the disparity in how GW treats it’s poster boys compared to other factions). Obviously I’m also interested in the green skin rules. Hopefully my biker gang, mad max style army gets a boost. I love having more choices so I’d quite like these ‘not-warlord traits’ for units too ala Adaptive Physiology. Do any of the reliable French guys have rumours on the next book? Will there be a boxed set?
Given we've seeing the Kelermorph finally get an individual release alongside TGG, what'll your position be if the SW Lieutenant finally gets a blister release alongside Saga, as opposed to being in a big boxed set and a SC set?
I'd be surprised if SW didn't get an entirely new model aka Ragnar. A separate release of a previously available model is not favouritism, for me. Can't see it though.
Honestly I'm in the same boat, I like the additional stuff. there sometimes I think GW misses the mark, but by and large I love having options. new ways to play a game, UNPREDIABILITY.
if you and I sit down for a game, I want both our armies to do well, I want us to each have options (to the point where everyone's army feels slightly differant) and I want to have FUN. Some of the people on this forum I don't think I'd wanna play with at all. for what it's worth AAE, we occasionally but heads but I think we both want the same thing from the game.
I love you too bro.
I also completely agree with what you've stated so far, variety and flexibility is key and GW are trying to give every faction some of it.
Adding variety and flavor to factions is what I want from these books. The problem is that they don't do that equally among factions. Sm chapters are given rules that make them act as they should for free. Other factions lose all their uniqueness once the cp runs out.
That said I love what Faith and Fury gave to Night Lords. Whoever wrote that stuff was mainlineing ADB's trilogy.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It is on topic because it's related to the speed of the books being put out and the quality of them. It's pretty simple. Either defend them or don't.
What news or rumour content does it contain? Discussing the general quality of their publications isn't for in here.
Yes it is, otherwise there would be absolutely NO posts here besides the rumors and news and all threads would be locked.
Imagine that, news and rumours threads in the news and rumours forum!
So why not just lock every single thread here? Every thread and post is X is happening, Y might happen, and bam lock the thread!
I'm not really bothered by bloat - I feel its part and parcel of the game.
I guess I am a bit negative about this build your own faction stuff. I had a dream that the chapters system would allow for GW to explore alternate design space within factions. This has happened for Marines - i.e. an RG army doesn't look like an IH army - but it is rarer elsewhere. We are now in a sort of internal-soup world, where mixing and matching to optimise rules in a detachment rather than an army is clearly the intent. Which is fine, but a bit sad. It means they will likely never fix the weaker "chapters" because... just take the good custom traits.
I know some people will enjoy making their dues *their dudes* - but for the most part it is just "take X and Y, its the best".
I think IG and Tau have benefited from this book both in terms of power, but also in opening at least slightly different builds to what currently existed. This might be a false hope - but I think people will at least try say Farsight Enclaves and custom traits.
GSC sadly seem to have got the weaker end of the stick. There may be some sleeper hits in there but the psychic powers seem kind of meh, while the new traits seem uninspired. I mean... ignore moving and shooting with heavy weapons, reroll mining laser misses on an army which spams neophytes like they are going out of fashion. If you don't rate that 6++ arguably its better that bladed cog. But it doesn't feel like its opening a new... way to play. You are just swapping one buff for another.
I can for example imagine Orks will get the same. But I'd like... idk, to see something different. Not see the clan traits get cut up, say you can put the peices together, plus a few new ones that probably don't... really stack up.
I mean for buggy lists maybe there would be something in being able to combine deathskulls reroll a hit, a wound and (where relevant) a damage roll, with ignoring the penalty for shooting after advancing. But its not really... exciting. If that makes sense.
I wouldn't be surprised if SW get something, but if it was a vaguely fluff relevant model I think it would have been shown off by now.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It is on topic because it's related to the speed of the books being put out and the quality of them. It's pretty simple. Either defend them or don't.
What news or rumour content does it contain? Discussing the general quality of their publications isn't for in here.
Yes it is, otherwise there would be absolutely NO posts here besides the rumors and news and all threads would be locked.
Imagine that, news and rumours threads in the news and rumours forum!
So why not just lock every single thread here? Every thread and post is X is happening, Y might happen, and bam lock the thread!
Yes of course! There can be no middle ground, and everything needs to be black and white.
News and rumours is for posting news and rumours, and then discussing them. When a thread stops being on topic, then yes, it should be locked so that people who come here for News and Rumours don't have to wade through the usual nonsense GW bashing and complaining.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It is on topic because it's related to the speed of the books being put out and the quality of them. It's pretty simple. Either defend them or don't.
What news or rumour content does it contain? Discussing the general quality of their publications isn't for in here.
Yes it is, otherwise there would be absolutely NO posts here besides the rumors and news and all threads would be locked.
Imagine that, news and rumours threads in the news and rumours forum!
So why not just lock every single thread here? Every thread and post is X is happening, Y might happen, and bam lock the thread!
Yes of course! There can be no middle ground, and everything needs to be black and white.
News and rumours is for posting news and rumours, and then discussing them. When a thread stops being on topic, then yes, it should be locked so that people who come here for [I]News and Rumours [\i]don't have to wade through the usual nonsense GW bashing and complaining.
So when we get the news about terrible layouts or rules or pricing, they're gonna be discussed. Simple as that. If all you want is positivity and always giving the benefit of the doubt no matter what, go to their official pages.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It is on topic because it's related to the speed of the books being put out and the quality of them. It's pretty simple. Either defend them or don't.
What news or rumour content does it contain? Discussing the general quality of their publications isn't for in here.
Yes it is, otherwise there would be absolutely NO posts here besides the rumors and news and all threads would be locked.
Imagine that, news and rumours threads in the news and rumours forum!
So why not just lock every single thread here? Every thread and post is X is happening, Y might happen, and bam lock the thread!
Yes of course! There can be no middle ground, and everything needs to be black and white.
News and rumours is for posting news and rumours, and then discussing them. When a thread stops being on topic, then yes, it should be locked so that people who come here for [I]News and Rumours [\i]don't have to wade through the usual nonsense GW bashing and complaining.
So when we get the news about terrible layouts or rules or pricing, they're gonna be discussed. Simple as that. If all you want is positivity and always giving the benefit of the doubt no matter what, go to their official pages.
If you want to obsessively complain about their products and not contribute to the topic at hand, please direct yourself to the GW feedback emails and stop cluttering the thread.
Gadzilla666 wrote:Adding variety and flavor to factions is what I want from these books. The problem is that they don't do that equally among factions. Sm chapters are given rules that make them act as they should for free. Other factions lose all their uniqueness once the cp runs out.
That said I love what Faith and Fury gave to Night Lords. Whoever wrote that stuff was mainlineing ADB's trilogy.
If you run out of CP and your army is entirely based on using it, it should start sucking. If I run out of units that can take objectives & the game win condition is objectives, my army should start to suck. CP is a resource and you should manage it appropriately. I rarely use all of my CP & most of them are spent on re-rolls & two 1CP strats.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It is on topic because it's related to the speed of the books being put out and the quality of them. It's pretty simple. Either defend them or don't.
What news or rumour content does it contain? Discussing the general quality of their publications isn't for in here.
Yes it is, otherwise there would be absolutely NO posts here besides the rumors and news and all threads would be locked.
Imagine that, news and rumours threads in the news and rumours forum!
So why not just lock every single thread here? Every thread and post is X is happening, Y might happen, and bam lock the thread!
Yes of course! There can be no middle ground, and everything needs to be black and white.
News and rumours is for posting news and rumours, and then discussing them. When a thread stops being on topic, then yes, it should be locked so that people who come here for [I]News and Rumours [\i]don't have to wade through the usual nonsense GW bashing and complaining.
So when we get the news about terrible layouts or rules or pricing, they're gonna be discussed. Simple as that. If all you want is positivity and always giving the benefit of the doubt no matter what, go to their official pages.
If you want to obsessively complain about their products and not contribute to the topic at hand, please direct yourself to the GW feedback emails and stop cluttering the thread.
I have sent emails. Also people here have every right to complain about a shoddy product.
Gadzilla666 wrote:Adding variety and flavor to factions is what I want from these books. The problem is that they don't do that equally among factions. Sm chapters are given rules that make them act as they should for free. Other factions lose all their uniqueness once the cp runs out.
That said I love what Faith and Fury gave to Night Lords. Whoever wrote that stuff was mainlineing ADB's trilogy.
If you run out of CP and your army is entirely based on using it, it should start sucking. If I run out of units that can take objectives & the game win condition is objectives, my army should start to suck. CP is a resource and you should manage it appropriately. I rarely use all of my CP & most of them are spent on re-rolls & two 1CP strats.
Yeah, screw the Chaos Marine players that want a functional army, screw those Harlequins players too!
GW making armies function off an outside resource is ridiculous.
Gadzilla666 wrote:Adding variety and flavor to factions is what I want from these books. The problem is that they don't do that equally among factions. Sm chapters are given rules that make them act as they should for free. Other factions lose all their uniqueness once the cp runs out.
That said I love what Faith and Fury gave to Night Lords. Whoever wrote that stuff was mainlineing ADB's trilogy.
If you run out of CP and your army is entirely based on using it, it should start sucking. If I run out of units that can take objectives & the game win condition is objectives, my army should start to suck. CP is a resource and you should manage it appropriately. I rarely use all of my CP & most of them are spent on re-rolls & two 1CP strats.
I didn't say they SUCKED I said they stopped being unique, ie. a Night Lords army plays just like a black legion army that has the same list composition without strategems.
My point was that strategems are required to make certain factions play to their fluff while others play to their fluff without them. I find that to be unequal design philosophy. Gw places too much emphasis on strategem use for certain armies.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It is on topic because it's related to the speed of the books being put out and the quality of them. It's pretty simple. Either defend them or don't.
What news or rumour content does it contain? Discussing the general quality of their publications isn't for in here.
Yes it is, otherwise there would be absolutely NO posts here besides the rumors and news and all threads would be locked.
Imagine that, news and rumours threads in the news and rumours forum!
So why not just lock every single thread here? Every thread and post is X is happening, Y might happen, and bam lock the thread!
Yes of course! There can be no middle ground, and everything needs to be black and white.
News and rumours is for posting news and rumours, and then discussing them. When a thread stops being on topic, then yes, it should be locked so that people who come here for [I]News and Rumours [\i]don't have to wade through the usual nonsense GW bashing and complaining.
So when we get the news about terrible layouts or rules or pricing, they're gonna be discussed. Simple as that. If all you want is positivity and always giving the benefit of the doubt no matter what, go to their official pages.
If you want to obsessively complain about their products and not contribute to the topic at hand, please direct yourself to the GW feedback emails and stop cluttering the thread.
I have sent emails. Also people here have every right to complain about a shoddy product.
Then you've complained in the correct place, this thread is about psychic awakening and not for your personal monologue.
Dragging it back on topic, now we've seen a 4 faction book I'm slightly less nervous about engine wars mishandling some of the factions. If they give all 4 of those factions similar coverage, that'll be nice.
Gadzilla666 wrote:Adding variety and flavor to factions is what I want from these books. The problem is that they don't do that equally among factions. Sm chapters are given rules that make them act as they should for free. Other factions lose all their uniqueness once the cp runs out.
That said I love what Faith and Fury gave to Night Lords. Whoever wrote that stuff was mainlineing ADB's trilogy.
If you run out of CP and your army is entirely based on using it, it should start sucking. If I run out of units that can take objectives & the game win condition is objectives, my army should start to suck. CP is a resource and you should manage it appropriately. I rarely use all of my CP & most of them are spent on re-rolls & two 1CP strats.
Yeah, I'm going to have to decide if the extra warlord traits, relics, and new unit buffs are actually worth taking, mono Genestealer Cult can blow through CP so easily. I used to consider Perfect Ambush/Lying in Wait/They Came From Below as essential stratagems, but they also eat up a ton of CP just to give my deepstrikers a good chance of doing something useful before they die next turn. I can spend 5-8 CP on good stuff before the first round even begins.
Extra Relic: 1/3 CP (we have great relics, I think it's worth taking at least 1 extra)
Specialist Detachment: 1 CP - Deliverance Broodsurge
Specialist Warlord Trait: 1 CP - Charge reroll aura (Patriarch has to be the Warlord if its in your list, and he can't take this)
Broodcoven: 1 CP - 2 extra warlord traits
Cult's Psyche: 1 CP - cast twice with a Magus (unsure on this, we have amazing powers but our 2 psykers are very limited)
Heart of the Creed: 1CP - double primus' ability (probably not worth taking this)
Turn 1-3: 6+ CP They Came From Below: 1 CP - put 3 units from the board into deepstrike
A Perfect Ambush: 3CP - shoot or move d6" after deepstrike
Lying in Wait: 2CP - deepstrike 3" away
I guess there's a silver lining with Psychic Awakening not offering super essential strategems, lol.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It is on topic because it's related to the speed of the books being put out and the quality of them. It's pretty simple. Either defend them or don't.
What news or rumour content does it contain? Discussing the general quality of their publications isn't for in here.
Yes it is, otherwise there would be absolutely NO posts here besides the rumors and news and all threads would be locked.
Imagine that, news and rumours threads in the news and rumours forum!
So why not just lock every single thread here? Every thread and post is X is happening, Y might happen, and bam lock the thread!
Yes of course! There can be no middle ground, and everything needs to be black and white.
News and rumours is for posting news and rumours, and then discussing them. When a thread stops being on topic, then yes, it should be locked so that people who come here for [I]News and Rumours [\i]don't have to wade through the usual nonsense GW bashing and complaining.
So when we get the news about terrible layouts or rules or pricing, they're gonna be discussed. Simple as that. If all you want is positivity and always giving the benefit of the doubt no matter what, go to their official pages.
If you want to obsessively complain about their products and not contribute to the topic at hand, please direct yourself to the GW feedback emails and stop cluttering the thread.
I have sent emails. Also people here have every right to complain about a shoddy product.
Then you've complained in the correct place, this thread is about psychic awakening and not for your personal monologue.
Dragging it back on topic, now we've seen a 4 faction book I'm slightly less nervous about engine wars mishandling some of the factions. If they give all 4 of those factions similar coverage, that'll be nice.
So we're allowed to discuss Psychic Awakening as long as it isn't negativity that bothers you. Got it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It is on topic because it's related to the speed of the books being put out and the quality of them. It's pretty simple. Either defend them or don't.
What news or rumour content does it contain? Discussing the general quality of their publications isn't for in here.
Yes it is, otherwise there would be absolutely NO posts here besides the rumors and news and all threads would be locked.
Imagine that, news and rumours threads in the news and rumours forum!
So why not just lock every single thread here? Every thread and post is X is happening, Y might happen, and bam lock the thread!
Yes of course! There can be no middle ground, and everything needs to be black and white.
News and rumours is for posting news and rumours, and then discussing them. When a thread stops being on topic, then yes, it should be locked so that people who come here for [I]News and Rumours [\i]don't have to wade through the usual nonsense GW bashing and complaining.
So when we get the news about terrible layouts or rules or pricing, they're gonna be discussed. Simple as that. If all you want is positivity and always giving the benefit of the doubt no matter what, go to their official pages.
If you want to obsessively complain about their products and not contribute to the topic at hand, please direct yourself to the GW feedback emails and stop cluttering the thread.
I have sent emails. Also people here have every right to complain about a shoddy product.
Then you've complained in the correct place, this thread is about psychic awakening and not for your personal monologue.
Dragging it back on topic, now we've seen a 4 faction book I'm slightly less nervous about engine wars mishandling some of the factions. If they give all 4 of those factions similar coverage, that'll be nice.
So we're allowed to discuss Psychic Awakening as long as it isn't negativity that bothers you. Got it.
Discuss it how you like, talking about gw's playtesters missing the incorrect values in chapter approved isn't about psychic awakening.
I'll not reply further unless its pertinent to the topic at hand.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It is on topic because it's related to the speed of the books being put out and the quality of them. It's pretty simple. Either defend them or don't.
What news or rumour content does it contain? Discussing the general quality of their publications isn't for in here.
Yes it is, otherwise there would be absolutely NO posts here besides the rumors and news and all threads would be locked.
Man, those custom cult creeds are a master class in just a game company DESPERATELY trying to make sure you can do nothing with them.
Other armies, you know, they get traits on all their models. Your average gsc army with custom traits benefits from them on like...10 models. So many traits that affect one, coubt them exactly one unit.
-psychic one: literally affects one model maximum per detachment who casts one power per turn. And it has a fething restriction, lol. Cant let you just HAVE that sweet +1 on your magus.
- bike one. Only for bikers, in fact, only for two weapon options on the 1 in 4 quad add on to the bikes.
-two that only affect the optional heavy weapons on neophyte squads.
-one that gives you the same reroll you can buy on any unit for 10pts.
-one that gives you +1 to charge in the first turn. We...have no units that can possibly charge turn 1....
the_scotsman wrote: Man, those custom cult creeds are a master class in just a game company DESPERATELY trying to make sure you can do nothing with them.
Other armies, you know, they get traits on all their models. Your average gsc army with custom traits benefits from them on like...10 models. So many traits that affect one, coubt them exactly one unit.
-psychic one: literally affects one model maximum per detachment who casts one power per turn. And it has a fething restriction, lol. Cant let you just HAVE that sweet +1 on your magus.
- bike one. Only for bikers, in fact, only for two weapon options on the 1 in 4 quad add on to the bikes.
-two that only affect the optional heavy weapons on neophyte squads.
-one that gives you the same reroll you can buy on any unit for 10pts.
-one that gives you +1 to charge in the first turn. We...have no units that can possibly charge turn 1....
the_scotsman wrote: Man, those custom cult creeds are a master class in just a game company DESPERATELY trying to make sure you can do nothing with them.
Other armies, you know, they get traits on all their models. Your average gsc army with custom traits benefits from them on like...10 models. So many traits that affect one, coubt them exactly one unit.
-psychic one: literally affects one model maximum per detachment who casts one power per turn. And it has a fething restriction, lol. Cant let you just HAVE that sweet +1 on your magus.
- bike one. Only for bikers, in fact, only for two weapon options on the 1 in 4 quad add on to the bikes.
-two that only affect the optional heavy weapons on neophyte squads.
-one that gives you the same reroll you can buy on any unit for 10pts.
-one that gives you +1 to charge in the first turn. We...have no units that can possibly charge turn 1....
Aaamazing.
At least our models looks nice :3
For the short time they remain on the table? Just another case of factions being treated differently in the same book a la Faith and Fury. Proof that gw plays favorites?
As others said before the release, I think its just lack of imagination on alternative ways to play GSC. DE arguably had similar I think because its hard to have interesting rules that will apply to a handful of units.
Tyel wrote: As others said before the release, I think its just lack of imagination on alternative ways to play GSC. DE arguably had similar I think because its hard to have interesting rules that will apply to a handful of units.
Atleast they got Build a trait.
Allbeit, when you look at half these you have to pick from they might aswell could've saved ink and not print them....
Yeah I'm sorry Cult players, it just sucks a good deal they feel like they didn't care about dirty cultists. For the other factions, glad you got some fun stuff in it.
The on topic part of the dislike was saying how some dislike how they handle and may be pumping this product out to be. You can still like the game and even get the product to stay relevant in any way ( like say Grey Knights for their book ).
I just don't like some aspects of it and really hope this isn't a pay for power soon to be brushed away with no codex drops just different enough to make getting this feel like I've been taken for a ride. I also dislike how some factions feel like after thoughts or are dragged through a bunch of these books all for marginal upgrades if any.
No bashing the devs, or questioning their smarts, I just don't like that aspect of this process. I kind of wonder what else lay in store for everyone else down the road. If the Orks will get a half effort while wolves run wild, we will see soon enough.
No bashing the devs, or questioning their smarts, I just don't like that aspect of this process. I kind of wonder what else lay in store for everyone else down the road. If the Orks will get a half effort while wolves run wild, we will see soon enough.
Assuming that what we've seen repeated time and again sofar, i'd honestly not have high hopes as an Ork player.
Either way I look forward to seeing it. I'm also curious as I have wolves what their stuff will look like. I fear it'll be all CC based but I'd like it to be more tactical to kinda feed into that close range, true grit kinda close range shooting/assault I've always run them as.
I could see either but I'm quietly dread filled it'll be something of dubious use going by what their current touch is with the +1 to hit in CC and better heroic intervenes.
Trying to steer it to the future what's everyones thoughts, fears, hopes, aspirations and dark dreads ?
This was probably written back when GSC were winning quite a lot of tournaments, thus their reluctance to pour too much love on GSC.
This is going to keep happening until GW move to a digital, truly living ruleset and not one six months behind the meta but we all know that won't happen whilst dead tree copies shift.
Arbitrator wrote: This was probably written back when GSC were winning quite a lot of tournaments, thus their reluctance to pour too much love on GSC.
Putting love into an army is not the same as putting power into it. You can put side-grades in, utility that makes an army more flexible rather than deal more damage or enable new archetypes that are not using the current most powerful stuff.
I find it amusing that, once again, GW failed to include the points cost of their brand new headlining model, in the book that releases it's new rules etc.
Kdash wrote: I find it amusing that, once again, GW failed to include the points cost of their brand new headlining model, in the book that releases it's new rules etc.
These books were almost certainly all written at the same time so if they forgot to put the points for one new unit in, expect that trend to continue.
Which also makes the disparity in rules even more perplexing. Seeing as these books were written in such a tight time frame, why couldn't they have done a better job of balancing the factions?
GW service guy: "You forgot the point costs. Again."
GW designer: "The what?"
GW service guy: "The point costs. So you can play the model."
GW designer: "Why would you need points for that?"
GW service guy: "So you can build lists with them?"
GW designer: "I put a number in the top left corner for that."
GW service guy: "That's power level, not points."
GW designer: "Isn't that enough?"
GW service guy: "Most people are building armies using points."
GW designer: "What people?"
GW service guy: "The ones playing the game."
GW designer: "Can't they just agree with the other players?"
GW service guy: "That won't work at tournaments."
GW designer: "No one plays tournaments."
GW service guy: "Lot's of people are."
GW designer: "They are doing it wrong."
GW service guy: "We still need points."
GW designer: "Well, just take the number in the top corner, multiply it by two and roll as many d20"
GW service guy: "That doesn't..."
GW manager: "Great, do that and subtract 10%. Anything else?"
GW designer: "I designed a primaris sergeant during this meeting, want to have a look at it?"
Reading that Ork story has me all excited! I know it won't happen but the slim possibility of getting mad boyz back has me giggling like an over-sugared child!
Domandi wrote: Reading that Ork story has me all excited! I know it won't happen but the slim possibility of getting mad boyz back has me giggling like an over-sugared child!
They could easily be a stratagem, like skarboyz and 'ard boyz. Don't think we're likely to see a big random table of behaviour to roll on, but possibly something like a special morale rule, or even more random attacks seems plausible.
I think Orks will get Klan psychic powers and 'kustom jobs' as the unit relic equivalent. Which does make it seem like quite a small book even with a hefty Space wolf primaris update.
Who's left after this and Engine War? Sisters, Custodes, Deathwatch, Deathguard and Necrons? Imperial agents maybe? Still it's an odd mix.
Does seem like Saga probably should cover one of those other factions.
So what do we think the weird thing in the sky is? Warp reacting to the waaagh psychic energy?? A warp storm enveloping the planet? A powerful psycker putting the planet in reality bubble? What about the strange entities on shiny ships? some sort of old ones remnant? Weird boyz "ascending?"
I like the idea for a wierdboy "odd skwad" ala warlock conclave. Seeing as its the psychic awakening and all.. lol.
Also really surprised by the amount of thinking a typical nob does.. Very impressive.
I hope so, maybe with a new model they could give revamped rules like a WAAAGH!-Field for a baseline invuln. save for them so they don't just pop immediately. Would also be cool to see Old Zogwort but given that he wasn't mentioned it's a long shot he's brought back in any capacity. At the very least, having another Ork psychic table would be cool, maybe one touching the aspects of Mork and the other of Gork (kind of like when they did the Lore of the BIG Waaagh! and the Lore of the Little Waaagh! for Orcs and Goblins back in old WHFB).
Argive wrote: So what do we think the weird thing in the sky is?
Warp reacting to the waaagh psychic energy?? A warp storm enveloping the planet? A powerful psycker putting the planet in reality bubble?
What about the strange entities on shiny ships? some sort of old ones remnant? Weird boyz "ascending?"
I like the idea for a wierdboy "odd skwad" ala warlock conclave. Seeing as its the psychic awakening and all.. lol.
Also really surprised by the amount of thinking a typical nob does.. Very impressive.
I'd also like a "WAAAAGGGHHH!Lock conclave".
As to the entities on scrap ships - they are a vision of the future I believe. The story names them as Orks because they have the same gubbinz and they're described kinda Orky in movement. Weirdboyz exploded and left this weird ethereal vision that showed what happens if you join da big WAAAAAAGGGHHH!!!
Argive wrote: So what do we think the weird thing in the sky is?
Warp reacting to the waaagh psychic energy?? A warp storm enveloping the planet? A powerful psycker putting the planet in reality bubble?
What about the strange entities on shiny ships? some sort of old ones remnant? Weird boyz "ascending?"
I like the idea for a wierdboy "odd skwad" ala warlock conclave. Seeing as its the psychic awakening and all.. lol.
Also really surprised by the amount of thinking a typical nob does.. Very impressive.
I'd also like a "WAAAAGGGHHH!Lock conclave".
As to the entities on scrap ships - they are a vision of the future I believe. The story names them as Orks because they have the same gubbinz and they're described kinda Orky in movement. Weirdboyz exploded and left this weird ethereal vision that showed what happens if you join da big WAAAAAAGGGHHH!!!
Argive wrote: So what do we think the weird thing in the sky is?
Warp reacting to the waaagh psychic energy?? A warp storm enveloping the planet? A powerful psycker putting the planet in reality bubble?
What about the strange entities on shiny ships? some sort of old ones remnant? Weird boyz "ascending?"
I like the idea for a wierdboy "odd skwad" ala warlock conclave. Seeing as its the psychic awakening and all.. lol.
Also really surprised by the amount of thinking a typical nob does.. Very impressive.
I'd also like a "WAAAAGGGHHH!Lock conclave".
As to the entities on scrap ships - they are a vision of the future I believe. The story names them as Orks because they have the same gubbinz and they're described kinda Orky in movement. Weirdboyz exploded and left this weird ethereal vision that showed what happens if you join da big WAAAAAAGGGHHH!!!
Argive wrote: So what do we think the weird thing in the sky is?
Warp reacting to the waaagh psychic energy?? A warp storm enveloping the planet? A powerful psycker putting the planet in reality bubble?
What about the strange entities on shiny ships? some sort of old ones remnant? Weird boyz "ascending?"
I like the idea for a wierdboy "odd skwad" ala warlock conclave. Seeing as its the psychic awakening and all.. lol.
Also really surprised by the amount of thinking a typical nob does.. Very impressive.
I'd also like a "WAAAAGGGHHH!Lock conclave".
As to the entities on scrap ships - they are a vision of the future I believe. The story names them as Orks because they have the same gubbinz and they're described kinda Orky in movement. Weirdboyz exploded and left this weird ethereal vision that showed what happens if you join da big WAAAAAAGGGHHH!!!
The weird thing in the sky I assumed was the Great Rift; the visions have always been part of Ork lore as to how Waarghs get started. The boys start getting these visions, the meks start building ships and gargants and the boys start coalescing under the biggest, baddest boss they can find. And it just keeps building up energy, material and troops until, boom! They’re spreading across dozens of systems!
Argive wrote: I'd also like a "WAAAAGGGHHH!Lock conclave".
As to the entities on scrap ships - they are a vision of the future I believe. The story names them as Orks because they have the same gubbinz and they're described kinda Orky in movement. Weirdboyz exploded and left this weird ethereal vision that showed what happens if you join da big WAAAAAAGGGHHH!!!
Only if they randomly blow up in CC!
If you ever play a warphead or two, you'll have no troubles blowing up themselves with perils - just give that waaagh-conclave the same rules as regular weird boyz (+1 to cast for 10 orks, perils on 11+) and you'll have tons of explosions.
Tastyfish wrote: I think Orks will get Klan psychic powers and 'kustom jobs' as the unit relic equivalent. Which does make it seem like quite a small book even with a hefty Space wolf primaris update.
Who's left after this and Engine War? Sisters, Custodes, Deathwatch, Deathguard and Necrons? Imperial agents maybe? Still it's an odd mix.
Does seem like Saga probably should cover one of those other factions.
Maybe it will have more sisters fluff to accompany rest of sisters in march and that's sisters gain in PA? If that's what it takes to get rest of the models this year bring it on!
Tastyfish wrote: I think Orks will get Klan psychic powers and 'kustom jobs' as the unit relic equivalent. Which does make it seem like quite a small book even with a hefty Space wolf primaris update.
Who's left after this and Engine War? Sisters, Custodes, Deathwatch, Deathguard and Necrons? Imperial agents maybe? Still it's an odd mix.
Does seem like Saga probably should cover one of those other factions.
Maybe it will have more sisters fluff to accompany rest of sisters in march and that's sisters gain in PA? If that's what it takes to get rest of the models this year bring it on!
that would be nice, suprising but nice. I'd love to get a "create an order" rules set for sisters but I don't think we're going to, space Mariens very clearly had each core chapter tactic made up as something that was easily diviable in two (except iron hands who effectively got 3.... cause balance!) sisters don't really have that.
Argive wrote: I'd also like a "WAAAAGGGHHH!Lock conclave".
As to the entities on scrap ships - they are a vision of the future I believe. The story names them as Orks because they have the same gubbinz and they're described kinda Orky in movement. Weirdboyz exploded and left this weird ethereal vision that showed what happens if you join da big WAAAAAAGGGHHH!!!
Only if they randomly blow up in CC!
If you ever play a warphead or two, you'll have no troubles blowing up themselves with perils - just give that waaagh-conclave the same rules as regular weird boyz (+1 to cast for 10 orks, perils on 11+) and you'll have tons of explosions.
Tastyfish wrote: I think Orks will get Klan psychic powers and 'kustom jobs' as the unit relic equivalent. Which does make it seem like quite a small book even with a hefty Space wolf primaris update.
Who's left after this and Engine War? Sisters, Custodes, Deathwatch, Deathguard and Necrons? Imperial agents maybe? Still it's an odd mix.
Does seem like Saga probably should cover one of those other factions.
Maybe it will have more sisters fluff to accompany rest of sisters in march and that's sisters gain in PA? If that's what it takes to get rest of the models this year bring it on!
that would be nice, suprising but nice. I'd love to get a "create an order" rules set for sisters but I don't think we're going to, space Mariens very clearly had each core chapter tactic made up as something that was easily diviable in two (except iron hands who effectively got 3.... cause balance!) sisters don't really have that.
Honestly, I'd rather not get any new rules for the Sisters - not a fan of a brand new book becoming incomplete within months of its release. The remaining miniatures can't come soon enough however!
Well, rather no new book... unless the Sisters will get a Cannones with 1) not weirdly restrictive wargear options, 2) jump pack, and/or 3) battle pulpit option. Ain't happening, but that would be acceptable...
Tastyfish wrote: I think Orks will get Klan psychic powers and 'kustom jobs' as the unit relic equivalent. Which does make it seem like quite a small book even with a hefty Space wolf primaris update.
Who's left after this and Engine War? Sisters, Custodes, Deathwatch, Deathguard and Necrons? Imperial agents maybe? Still it's an odd mix.
Does seem like Saga probably should cover one of those other factions.
Maybe it will have more sisters fluff to accompany rest of sisters in march and that's sisters gain in PA? If that's what it takes to get rest of the models this year bring it on!
that would be nice, suprising but nice. I'd love to get a "create an order" rules set for sisters but I don't think we're going to, space Mariens very clearly had each core chapter tactic made up as something that was easily diviable in two (except iron hands who effectively got 3.... cause balance!) sisters don't really have that.
Honestly, I'd rather not get any new rules for the Sisters - not a fan of a brand new book becoming incomplete within months of its release. The remaining miniatures can't come soon enough however!
Well, rather no new book... unless the Sisters will get a Cannones with 1) not weirdly restrictive wargear options, 2) jump pack, and/or 3) battle pulpit option. Ain't happening, but that would be acceptable...
I'd be fine if it was something highly optional such as minorus order rules.
If this is legit, it would lend credence to the Warp Spider PL Easter egg in the Greater Good, potentially. I could see War of the Spider containing Harlequins (Webway = Spider?) with maybe an update to Warp Spiders + Phoenix Lord against maybe Necrons? The only two factions I can think of when I think of the War of the Spider are Eldar and Necrons.
It actually says ‘War of Spider’ not ‘war of the spider’. Gotta be Necron related I think. Doubt very much Craftworld get anything new. They haven’t even got their Banshees separate have they?
Most likely Necron focus. They have a lot of spidery units and it fits for me. I think the warp spider thing is a stretch.
As awesome as that would be, yeah I don't think they will revisit craftworlds unfortunately. No new warlord traits relics or strategems for us. Probably another chaos berserkers getting 2 W's
Harlies v necrons perhaps something to do with the webway.
Argive wrote: Warp spider PL Easter Egg ?? Care to elaborate?
Warp Spiders arrive to recover "ancient relic armor", similar to how Mymeara recovered Irillyth's armor. Could be the Warp Spider PL. Could be absolutely anything, but one can hope.
As awesome as that would be, yeah I don't think they will revisit craftworlds unfortunately. No new warlord traits relics or strategems for us.
I wasn't suggesting that Craftworlds would get anything more than a new Warp Spider datasheet and Warp Spider PL datasheet. But yeah, it's probably a long shot.
Argive wrote: Warp spider PL Easter Egg ?? Care to elaborate?
Warp Spiders arrive to recover "ancient relic armor", similar to how Mymeara recovered Irillyth's armor. Could be the Warp Spider PL. Could be absolutely anything, but one can hope.
From Psychic Awakening: Greater Good
Excellent find!
Could have been a spirit stone recovery mission. Could indeed be a phoenix armour recovery... But yeah could be anything..
I think it's very ambitious to expect any more releases for Craftworld during PA. Craftworld have had more than most in terms of new models (regardless of how poorly you believe BoTP was handled).
GW have said each faction will get something. If CWE feature twice before some factions have featured once well, I dread to think of the salt that would flow.
More likely a reference to Necrons vs Harlies. Perhaps Harlies get a new model too (I believe Necrons are extremely likely to get a new model given rumour engine pics) but even that's a long shot, for me.
In would exercise caution CWE players, warp spiders will get new models eventually, no doubt, but not during PA.
Not Online!!! wrote: I seriously doubt anyone would get salty about new warpspiders.
(Or any eldar aspect fwiw)
I know at least 3 people on this forum who will get salty about them for sure and create a thread about it, plus another one depending on whether there is a slight ambiguity in their rules or not.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I think it's very ambitious to expect any more releases for Craftworld during PA. Craftworld have had more than most in terms of new models (regardless of how poorly you believe BoTP was handled).
GW have said each faction will get something. If CWE feature twice before some factions have featured once well, I dread to think of the salt that would flow.
More likely a reference to Necrons vs Harlies. Perhaps Harlies get a new model too (I believe Necrons are extremely likely to get a new model given rumour engine pics) but even that's a long shot, for me.
In would exercise caution CWE players, warp spiders will get new models eventually, no doubt, but not during PA.
I could see eldar featuring in a book story section without new rules in the book that features 'crons and harlies. I can also see the BOTP boxed stuff getting their independant release as part of that
Not Online!!! wrote: I seriously doubt anyone would get salty about new warpspiders.
(Or any eldar aspect fwiw)
I know at least 3 people on this forum who will get salty about them for sure and create a thread about it, plus another one depending on whether there is a slight ambiguity in their rules or not.
The ambiguity dude, atleast has a (kind off) point.
As for the other bunch, considering that some complained about sisters getting a release i understand what you mean but GW is GW and if they smell blood in the watterrrrerm i meant money in wallets, they will throw out anything to get there.
Argive wrote: It seems to make sense.. Far more than a warp spider Phoenix Lord sadly.. I can see the Necrons trying to destroy the webway/old ones creation.
Then how would they get around? I think that would be the only thing dumber than Dolmen Gates but GW seem pretty intent on keeping those as the standard.
It certainly seems more Webway War than Spiders. Halies, Custodes and maybe necrons (although I would have put Deathwatch vs Necrons).
I don't think we will see more Eldar in a PA book, but that's not to say that Craftworlds 2.0 is not in the works so they can release the Banshees and a new kit(s) for other aspects. It was such a fail to hamstring them to the BotP box.
bullyboy wrote: It certainly seems more Webway War than Spiders. Halies, Custodes and maybe necrons (although I would have put Deathwatch vs Necrons).
I tend to agree, sadly. But I'm wondering what units (or unit, really) they could release for that book. There has to be a miniature release, no matter how meagre, so what could it be?
I'd be all up for a Great Harlequin. Give the Harlies a more leader-y HQ choice.
Games Workshop wrote:Commander Shadowsun is so stealthy that we couldn't find her points value to put in The Greater Good book! Fortunately, we've tracked it down now.
I mean... with all this use I think poor Hanlon's razor is going to be quite blunt...
Kdash wrote: IIRC, the Warp Spiders get their name from the crystalline spiders that inhabit and maintain the webway, whom are also called Warp Spiders.
So you could link them to whatever might happen/is happening in the webway.
The Warp Spider Aspect takes its name from the crystal spiders that protect the Infinity Circuits of craftworlds from hostile psychic intrusion. They swarm to attack any shred of non-Eldar energy that finds its way into the Infinity Circuit. These spiders are some form of psychic lifeform, as they create (and dissolve) their physical bodies using the psychoactive crystal structure of the craftworld.
Games Workshop wrote:Commander Shadowsun is so stealthy that we couldn't find her points value to put in The Greater Good book! Fortunately, we've tracked it down now.
I mean... with all this use I think poor Hanlon's razor is going to be quite blunt...
hanlons razor at this point would need to be a scalpel for eye surgery to not be blunt
bullyboy wrote: It certainly seems more Webway War than Spiders. Halies, Custodes and maybe necrons (although I would have put Deathwatch vs Necrons).
I tend to agree, sadly. But I'm wondering what units (or unit, really) they could release for that book. There has to be a miniature release, no matter how meagre, so what could it be?
I'd be all up for a Great Harlequin. Give the Harlies a more leader-y HQ choice.
There is a 0.0001% chance harlequins get anything but a name generator, custom masque traits, and a few stratagems tied to each specific unit doing a special thing.
MAYBE a special psychic power for each named masque. I expect minimal effort content for harlequins.
bullyboy wrote: It certainly seems more Webway War than Spiders. Halies, Custodes and maybe necrons (although I would have put Deathwatch vs Necrons).
I tend to agree, sadly. But I'm wondering what units (or unit, really) they could release for that book. There has to be a miniature release, no matter how meagre, so what could it be?
I'd be all up for a Great Harlequin. Give the Harlies a more leader-y HQ choice.
There is a 0.0001% chance harlequins get anything but a name generator, custom masque traits, and a few stratagems tied to each specific unit doing a special thing.
MAYBE a special psychic power for each named masque. I expect minimal effort content for harlequins.
The sad thing is that even that meagre offering would still put them well above Dark Eldar in terms of what they got from PA.
Argive wrote: It seems to make sense.. Far more than a warp spider Phoenix Lord sadly.. I can see the Necrons trying to destroy the webway/old ones creation.
Then how would they get around? I think that would be the only thing dumber than Dolmen Gates but GW seem pretty intent on keeping those as the standard.
Its just a sales pitch to update new comers to the hobby. Nothing really extra-ordinary. I just hope orks get plastic characters, MAWB and KFF big mek without mega armor
bullyboy wrote: It certainly seems more Webway War than Spiders. Halies, Custodes and maybe necrons (although I would have put Deathwatch vs Necrons).
I tend to agree, sadly. But I'm wondering what units (or unit, really) they could release for that book. There has to be a miniature release, no matter how meagre, so what could it be?
I'd be all up for a Great Harlequin. Give the Harlies a more leader-y HQ choice.
There is a 0.0001% chance harlequins get anything but a name generator, custom masque traits, and a few stratagems tied to each specific unit doing a special thing.
MAYBE a special psychic power for each named masque. I expect minimal effort content for harlequins.
I keep hoping that the Harlequins will get the Mime infiltrators that were introduced in the Citadel Journal 44, Death Jesters with alternate weapons, a warlock level Shadowseer, and a hero level Great Harlequin, but I know there’s only something like a 0.00001% chance of any of that happening.
Obviously after suffering near cripling casualties, and having your recruiting worlds overrun by daemons, the sensible thing for a Chapter to do is banzai into a Waaagh! in an attempt to kill Ghazghkull (which is clearly so unsucessful that they actually managaed to bring Makari back to life)...
Obviously after suffering near cripling casualties, and having your recruiting worlds overrun by daemons, the sensible thing for a Chapter to do is banzai into a Waaagh! in an attempt to kill Ghazghkull (which is clearly so unsucessful that they actually managaed to bring Makari back to life)...
To be fair, Space Wolves are not known for prudence.
Known books
Phoenix Rising - Craftworld, Drukhari, Ynnari
Faith & Fury - Black Templars, Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines
Blood of Baal - Blood Angels, Tyranids
Ritual of the Damned - Dark Angels, Thousands Sons, Grey Knights
The Greater Good - T’au Empire, Astra Militarum, Genestealer Cults
The Saga of the Beast - Orks, Space Wolves
Engine War- Imperial Knights, Chaos Knights, Adeptus Mechanicus, Daemons of Chaos
Armies that are left
Harlequins
Deathwatch
Necrons
Death Guard
Custodes
Imperial Agents
I don’t know if Sisters will get anything else since they were released in parallel with book two.
Smaug wrote: Phoenix Rising - Craftworld, Drukhari, Ynnari
Faith & Fury - Black Templars, Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines
Blood of Baal - Blood Angels, Tyranids
Ritual of the Damned - Dark Angels, Thousands Sons, Grey Knights
The Greater Good - T’au Empire, Astra Militarum, Genestealer Cults
The Saga of the Beast - Orks, Space Wolves
Engine War- Imperial Knights, Chaos Knights, Adeptus Mechanicus, Daemons of Chaos
That leaves Necrons, Harlies, Deathwatch, inquistion and sisters. No idea what the combination is going to be, but I'm hoping for Sanctuary 101 2 : Tesla Boogaloo
Sanctuary 101 3 : The necrodermic horse strikes back?
I guess it could be Deathwatch vs Necrons.
Might also be Harlies vs Necrons, but that would leave Deathwatch vs Sisters, and that's weird. I guess it could be a 2v1v1 between the imperials, eldar and necrons, which would be pretty cool.
Obviously after suffering near cripling casualties, and having your recruiting worlds overrun by daemons, the sensible thing for a Chapter to do is banzai into a Waaagh! in an attempt to kill Ghazghkull (which is clearly so unsucessful that they actually managaed to bring Makari back to life)...
...to make room for even more Primaris Marines to supplement their now even more flagging forces! Hurray! What a noble sacrifice.
Also, must they ask a question we all know the answer to as if the ink on the story wasn't already dry in our collective conscious? Yes, GW, the Space Wolves will stop the Orks from destroying the entire Imperium. We already know. It isn't suspenseful.
It would be pretty great if the orks did win, just to mix things up a bit. They probably won't though. Has xenos ever won in PA? Or chaos for that matter?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It would be pretty great if the orks did win, just mix things up a bit. They probably won't though, because can't damage that shiny plot armor that marines have.
Ghaz is gonna join the Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain club. You know this. According to Abaddon and the Swarmlord, there's punch and pie.
They probably won't though. Has xenos ever won in PA? Or chaos for that matter?
In the first PA, there was only Xenos, IIRC. Didn't they all lose, basically?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It would be pretty great if the orks did win, just to mix things up a bit.
They probably won't though. Has xenos ever won in PA? Or chaos for that matter?
Does Chaos winning in Phoenix count? Although it's pretty sad if you only win because Imps weren't around and the writers also dropped the ball.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It would be pretty great if the orks did win, just to mix things up a bit. They probably won't though. Has xenos ever won in PA? Or chaos for that matter?
Does Chaos winning in Phoenix count? Although it's pretty sad if you only win because Imps weren't around and the writers also dropped the ball.
That is both sad and funny. Remember the start of 8th, where chaos kicks the imperium hard in the proverbial groin and things were set up to be getting dire and worse? Pepperidge farm remembers.
Obviously after suffering near cripling casualties, and having your recruiting worlds overrun by daemons, the sensible thing for a Chapter to do is banzai into a Waaagh! in an attempt to kill Ghazghkull (which is clearly so unsucessful that they actually managaed to bring Makari back to life)...
I personally suspect that Ghaz just calls all grots Makari. Seeing how the original Makari had nothing to do with Ghaz (and in fact predates him), and was just a humble fungus seller trying to avoid getting his teef pulled by the Gretchin Mafia he was in debt to.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It would be pretty great if the orks did win, just mix things up a bit. They probably won't though, because can't damage that shiny plot armor that marines have.
Ghaz is gonna join the Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain club. You know this. According to Abaddon and the Swarmlord, there's punch and pie.
They probably won't though. Has xenos ever won in PA? Or chaos for that matter?
In the first PA, there was only Xenos, IIRC. Didn't they all lose, basically?
Not just Space Marines, but the Space Wolves. They're easily the worst written Chapter in the history of the game.
I really hope Ghaz doesn't get his ass kicked by Ragnar 2nd (3rd when Russ returns) in command bore-off. I thoroughly expect to see the following chain of events;
1. Things look really bad for the Space Wolves, OMG too many Orks and Ghazzy is really big and tough. Much dire. So sad howl.
2. At the climax of 'battle A' Ghazzy beats Ragnar in single combat! O noes, the Imperium is fethed!
3. Ragnar survives, by some miracle and despite the very idea making no sense and is taken back to the Fortress of Solit....Russ.
4. Ragnar crosses the Rubicon (Mango) Primaris.
5. Ragnar comes back and get's revenge on Ghazzy in single combat, easily beating the foolish greenskin, who has to run, tail between his legs back to Gork and Mork.
This would be a poor and predictable story.
Hopefully things look real grim in the "final battle" and Ghazzy either;
1. Lets Ragnar live so he can have a better scrap later (before leaving) OR
2. Gets Deus Ex Machinork'd outta there at the last minute by Gork and Mork who decide they need his big green booty elsewhere.
It'd be a shame if the Primary Ork Warlord and supposed Prophet of the WAAAGGGHH is beat by a non-Primarch Marine who's not even the top dog in his respective Chapter. E - it would be so bad in fact that it would render any "bigger model = greater status = greater threat" entirely moot.
Over the course of the saga, every Warhammer 40,000 faction will gain access to new rules. So far, we’ve already seen a host of new army-wide abilities, build-your-own sub-faction rules, extra Stratagems, psychic powers** and more. The Aeldari, Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids, Thousand Sons, Genestealer Cults, T’au Empire, Astra Militarum and a whole host of Space Marines Chapters have all seen new rules, and more are on the way.
Ad Mech, Knights (both kinds), Space Wolves, Orks and Daemons are confirmed supplements
Who is left according to the above statement: well
Custodes
Necrons
Sisters of Silence
Sisters of Battle
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Also confirmation that orks are next.
Oh and marines too I guess.
Yeah it's not like we haven't had the official info on that for 1 month and about 2 weeks straight from GW
edit: W40k FB team replied to question that sisters are getting rules in PA. So there goes theory that the start box was sister's PA part. Or the FB team writer was in error
I think its Death Guard, Death Watch, Custodes, Necrons.
I can see Harlequins turning up in a book *if* they do a second wave/mini wave of models. Its going to be fundamentally... weird to have say "get your Harlequin rules... and uh, new Warp Spiders, lol". I think "you could play as Ynnari if you wanted" could well be it.
Sisters of Battle are in a similar spot. Yes their image is there. But they just got a new Codex and essentially a new range. Releasing a new must-buy supplement that will be released a few months later seems kind of dumb. Not unprecedented, but dumb.
To be fair though, Custodes+Sisters+Death Guard and Death Watch+Harlequins+Necrons seems like a story you could tell.
Tyel wrote: I think its Death Guard, Death Watch, Custodes, Necrons.
I can see Harlequins turning up in a book *if* they do a second wave/mini wave of models. Its going to be fundamentally... weird to have say "get your Harlequin rules... and uh, new Warp Spiders, lol". I think "you could play as Ynnari if you wanted" could well be it.
Sisters of Battle are in a similar spot. Yes their image is there. But they just got a new Codex and essentially a new range. Releasing a new must-buy supplement that will be released a few months later seems kind of dumb. Not unprecedented, but dumb.
To be fair though, Custodes+Sisters+Death Guard and Death Watch+Harlequins+Necrons seems like a story you could tell.
You don't need models to be in PA book. Look at tyranis, t-son's, grey knights etc for example
As for sisters W40k FB team said they can confirm sistes are getting rules in PA. And makes sense. The codex isn't clearly on same level as PA boosted factions(no custom orders etc) so either they get or they are at disadvantage. Would it have been nicer to have PA level in codex right away? Yes. But it's GW. They are going to charge money for it.
tneva82 wrote: You don't need models to be in PA book. Look at tyranis, t-son's, grey knights etc for example
As for sisters W40k FB team said they can confirm sistes are getting rules in PA. And makes sense. The codex isn't clearly on same level as PA boosted factions(no custom orders etc) so either they get or they are at disadvantage. Would it have been nicer to have PA level in codex right away? Yes. But it's GW. They are going to charge money for it.
If they said so I guess I'll believe them - but I'm not sure I'd go with your view that they are at a disadvantage without custom traits. We have just had PA5, and based on the leaks, almost all the custom trait combos are probably worse than taking an existing trait. Farsight Enclaves will probably be interesting - but thats a buff rather than a custom option. I feel this is likely to go double for Sisters, because their traits are very powerful. (It may, in turn, mean they get amazing custom traits, but I wouldn't bet a lot on that).
The issue with Harlequins is that they are not far off a Tempestus scale faction who already got the Tempestus treatment. I'm sure someone will bitterly disagree - but I feel there are not 6 meaningfully different ways to run Harlequins, so there are not really 6 meaningfully different chapters.
So I mean yeah, nothing stops a phoned in list of "custom" traits, where 2/3rds are just weaker versions of the existing traits, and say 6 Masque specific psychic powers and a few new stratagems. But I have... very little optimism that it will change the faction. Without new models I'm not getting that excited - there is only so much you can do with Troupes, Transports and Jetbikes. But maybe I lack imagination.
Wasn't it Belial who hates Ghaz and tried really hard to kill him in one of the books? And Ghaz just toyed with him?
Really, Ghaz should be almost on the level of a primarch. The Beast in M32 was stronger than a primarch in combat (I think that was unrealistic, but whatever). Ragnar is pretty heroic and skilled even for a space marine, and has some pretty impressive plot armor, but he is not on the level of Ghaz if Ghaz is nearing Beast-levels of ork leadership which seems to be the implication of all the 8th edition comments about Orks.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It would be pretty great if the orks did win, just to mix things up a bit.
They probably won't though. Has xenos ever won in PA? Or chaos for that matter?
Does Chaos winning in Phoenix count? Although it's pretty sad if you only win because Imps weren't around and the writers also dropped the ball.
That is both sad and funny. Remember the start of 8th, where chaos kicks the imperium hard in the proverbial groin and things were set up to be getting dire and worse?
Pepperidge farm remembers.
Maybe for like 5 minutes that happened but Chaos has been getting kick up and down the street by a resurgent more powerful than ever Imperium with an Emperor 2 this time he's blue.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It would be pretty great if the orks did win, just to mix things up a bit.
They probably won't though. Has xenos ever won in PA? Or chaos for that matter?
Does Chaos winning in Phoenix count? Although it's pretty sad if you only win because Imps weren't around and the writers also dropped the ball.
That is both sad and funny. Remember the start of 8th, where chaos kicks the imperium hard in the proverbial groin and things were set up to be getting dire and worse?
Pepperidge farm remembers.
Maybe for like 5 minutes that happened but Chaos has been getting kick up and down the street by a resurgent more powerful than ever Imperium with an Emperor 2 this time he's blue.
yeah having the Imperium split in two and half of it de facto lost is such a great victory. *eye roll* but the "Imperium never loses" brigade only counts a loss if Terra or Macragge burns.
Tyel wrote: I think its Death Guard, Death Watch, Custodes, Necrons.
I can see Harlequins turning up in a book *if* they do a second wave/mini wave of models. Its going to be fundamentally... weird to have say "get your Harlequin rules... and uh, new Warp Spiders, lol". I think "you could play as Ynnari if you wanted" could well be it.
Sisters of Battle are in a similar spot. Yes their image is there. But they just got a new Codex and essentially a new range. Releasing a new must-buy supplement that will be released a few months later seems kind of dumb. Not unprecedented, but dumb.
To be fair though, Custodes+Sisters+Death Guard and Death Watch+Harlequins+Necrons seems like a story you could tell.
I can see both of those combinations coming true. I wonder if the Ultramarines will be included in the first one and end the series.
Since Sisters of Silence were not in the Custodes codex and FW was never able to make the Talons of the Emperor codex will they get their own codex Astra Telepathica with supporting models or will they be included in a cache all Inquisition/ Imperial Agents codex? Will they get a rules update in a PA book or will their rules stay in the Index?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It would be pretty great if the orks did win, just to mix things up a bit. They probably won't though. Has xenos ever won in PA? Or chaos for that matter?
Does Chaos winning in Phoenix count? Although it's pretty sad if you only win because Imps weren't around and the writers also dropped the ball.
That is both sad and funny. Remember the start of 8th, where chaos kicks the imperium hard in the proverbial groin and things were set up to be getting dire and worse? Pepperidge farm remembers.
Maybe for like 5 minutes that happened but Chaos has been getting kick up and down the street by a resurgent more powerful than ever Imperium with an Emperor 2 this time he's blue.
yeah having the Imperium split in two and half of it de facto lost is such a great victory. *eye roll* but the "Imperium never loses" brigade only counts a loss if Terra or Macragge burns.
Name one major loss since the Imperium got split. Because it seems that despite the divide and the fall of Cadia, the Imperium is doing just fine.
I'm pretty sure Chaos is still winning. The rift is wide open and anything CSM/Daemons/Cultists do will generally contribute to a)keeping it open and/or b) making it bigger. If Gork n Mork take more notice and fight(a lil less) with each other and more on the big crumpin, gak'll get worse further yet(I hope, cuz in the grim darkness of the far future...it always can get worse).
Remember, the Indomitus crusade was more about saving face and morale as anything actually strategic. Yes, Primaris kicked ass...and now the Imperium has some white blood cells to help with the infection, but stronger they are not...just not dead(yet).
I wonder if the no character points in PA design came from them being done with a narrative PoV.
Not hard to see how Vigilus style campaign books and then the codex updates in PA books could get too complicated for tournaments. So you've got a limited set of match play rules, and events for that and then an expanded set of narrative play rules and separate events for that.
However as the marine chapter updates look more like matched play updates rather than narrative ones - and how big an impact marine chapters have had on the tournaments, there's been a design change to have PA books being matched play too.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It would be pretty great if the orks did win, just to mix things up a bit.
They probably won't though. Has xenos ever won in PA? Or chaos for that matter?
Does Chaos winning in Phoenix count? Although it's pretty sad if you only win because Imps weren't around and the writers also dropped the ball.
That is both sad and funny. Remember the start of 8th, where chaos kicks the imperium hard in the proverbial groin and things were set up to be getting dire and worse?
Pepperidge farm remembers.
Maybe for like 5 minutes that happened but Chaos has been getting kick up and down the street by a resurgent more powerful than ever Imperium with an Emperor 2 this time he's blue.
yeah having the Imperium split in two and half of it de facto lost is such a great victory. *eye roll* but the "Imperium never loses" brigade only counts a loss if Terra or Macragge burns.
Which directly after said splitting, Chaos got their ass handed to them by Marines version 2.0 that had just happened to exist in secret for millennia until such a time the plot calls for convenient literal deus ex machina.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It would be pretty great if the orks did win, just to mix things up a bit.
They probably won't though. Has xenos ever won in PA? Or chaos for that matter?
Does Chaos winning in Phoenix count? Although it's pretty sad if you only win because Imps weren't around and the writers also dropped the ball.
That is both sad and funny. Remember the start of 8th, where chaos kicks the imperium hard in the proverbial groin and things were set up to be getting dire and worse?
Pepperidge farm remembers.
Maybe for like 5 minutes that happened but Chaos has been getting kick up and down the street by a resurgent more powerful than ever Imperium with an Emperor 2 this time he's blue.
yeah having the Imperium split in two and half of it de facto lost is such a great victory. *eye roll* but the "Imperium never loses" brigade only counts a loss if Terra or Macragge burns.
Which directly after said splitting, Chaos got their ass handed to them by Marines version 2.0 that had just happened to exist in secret for millennia until such a time the plot calls for convenient literal deus ex machina.
Don't forget that in the pa books every time it looks like chaos is getting somewhere....
Da da da da daa daaaaa!!! SPACE MARINES TO THE RESCUE!
Obviously after suffering near cripling casualties, and having your recruiting worlds overrun by daemons, the sensible thing for a Chapter to do is banzai into a Waaagh! in an attempt to kill Ghazghkull (which is clearly so unsucessful that they actually managaed to bring Makari back to life)...
Don't worry, they're still going to win. Ghazghkull is no match for plot armor.
Virules wrote: Wasn't it Belial who hates Ghaz and tried really hard to kill him in one of the books? And Ghaz just toyed with him?
Really, Ghaz should be almost on the level of a primarch. The Beast in M32 was stronger than a primarch in combat (I think that was unrealistic, but whatever). Ragnar is pretty heroic and skilled even for a space marine, and has some pretty impressive plot armor, but he is not on the level of Ghaz if Ghaz is nearing Beast-levels of ork leadership which seems to be the implication of all the 8th edition comments about Orks.
IIRC, in the same way mortals viewed Astartes as Moving Way Too Fast For Something That Huge, Belial had a similar revelation when he tangled with Ghaz. Impossibly strong, insanely fast, and basically had finished krumping you before you even had a chance to notice.
Primarch levels of combatant is really where Ghaz deserves to be. Gives the orcs a goddamn universal leader worth a damn, to give Bobby G a good fight.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It would be pretty great if the orks did win, just to mix things up a bit.
They probably won't though. Has xenos ever won in PA? Or chaos for that matter?
Does Chaos winning in Phoenix count? Although it's pretty sad if you only win because Imps weren't around and the writers also dropped the ball.
That is both sad and funny. Remember the start of 8th, where chaos kicks the imperium hard in the proverbial groin and things were set up to be getting dire and worse?
Pepperidge farm remembers.
Maybe for like 5 minutes that happened but Chaos has been getting kick up and down the street by a resurgent more powerful than ever Imperium with an Emperor 2 this time he's blue.
yeah having the Imperium split in two and half of it de facto lost is such a great victory. *eye roll* but the "Imperium never loses" brigade only counts a loss if Terra or Macragge burns.
Name one major loss since the Imperium got split. Because it seems that despite the divide and the fall of Cadia, the Imperium is doing just fine.
I dunno why the hell I'm wasting my time because short of the loss of terra, Macragge or Mars or something you'll bitch whine and moan "it doesn't count! that world doesn't mean anything!"
but ok let's list some chaos Victories:
- The Loss of Iax - this is actually signfcigent because 90% of battles eaither way are for worlds that GW, literally invents for that battle (case in point no one had heard of Vigilius until the supplements came along) Iax has been around since the 2nd edition Ultramarines Codex. and has long been described as a jewel in Ultramar's crown. back in the heresy is was one of the 5 major "command worlds" of greater Ultramar. And the planet was destroyed, in large part because Gulliman MADE A MISTAKE.
But that doesn't count for you does it?
- the Death Guard tainting the gene stocks of the Minotaurs Space Marine chapter "beyond all redemption" stop and think about this for a moment, the Minotaurs are a fairly well documented chapter, this isn't some rando chapter made up just to prove the DG are bad asses.
-War Zone Sygius: the 1k sons backed by Tzeetch have basicly over run this entire sector of space. Only Mordian seems to be able to hang on. (sure an Imperial counter attack may have blunted the attackj and even relieved a few worlds but over all a big win for chaos)
but you'll declare none of these victories count because you're arbitrarily declaring only total victories on worlds you deem important "count" and if thats the case... you're never gonna be sastified no matter what your faction. Total victories generally don't exist.
Can you take the off topic ‘Chaos never do anything of note in the lore’ elsewhere? Like maybe to where it belongs?
This discussion, if it wasn’t clear from the title; is centred around PA releases from the Greater Good onward.
GW have told us that the events of PA happen at a certain (though vague) point in the lore, knowing this - it would be bizarre if there were any major plot upheavals in the series.
We know neither Ghazzy nor Ragnar will die in Saga. We know this because their death isn’t mentioned in any of the lore that falls after the time when PA takes place. Technically I suppose Ghazzy could die because he’s messing with time but I think it’s very unlikely.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It would be pretty great if the orks did win, just to mix things up a bit. They probably won't though. Has xenos ever won in PA? Or chaos for that matter?
Does Chaos winning in Phoenix count? Although it's pretty sad if you only win because Imps weren't around and the writers also dropped the ball.
That is both sad and funny. Remember the start of 8th, where chaos kicks the imperium hard in the proverbial groin and things were set up to be getting dire and worse? Pepperidge farm remembers.
Maybe for like 5 minutes that happened but Chaos has been getting kick up and down the street by a resurgent more powerful than ever Imperium with an Emperor 2 this time he's blue.
yeah having the Imperium split in two and half of it de facto lost is such a great victory. *eye roll* but the "Imperium never loses" brigade only counts a loss if Terra or Macragge burns.
Name one major loss since the Imperium got split. Because it seems that despite the divide and the fall of Cadia, the Imperium is doing just fine.
I dunno why the hell I'm wasting my time because short of the loss of terra, Macragge or Mars or something you'll bitch whine and moan "it doesn't count! that world doesn't mean anything!"
but ok let's list some chaos Victories:
- The Loss of Iax - this is actually signfcigent because 90% of battles eaither way are for worlds that GW, literally invents for that battle (case in point no one had heard of Vigilius until the supplements came along) Iax has been around since the 2nd edition Ultramarines Codex. and has long been described as a jewel in Ultramar's crown. back in the heresy is was one of the 5 major "command worlds" of greater Ultramar. And the planet was destroyed, in large part because Gulliman MADE A MISTAKE. But that doesn't count for you does it?
- the Death Guard tainting the gene stocks of the Minotaurs Space Marine chapter "beyond all redemption" stop and think about this for a moment, the Minotaurs are a fairly well documented chapter, this isn't some rando chapter made up just to prove the DG are bad asses. -War Zone Sygius: the 1k sons backed by Tzeetch have basicly over run this entire sector of space. Only Mordian seems to be able to hang on. (sure an Imperial counter attack may have blunted the attackj and even relieved a few worlds but over all a big win for chaos)
but you'll declare none of these victories count because you're arbitrarily declaring only total victories on worlds you deem important "count" and if thats the case... you're never gonna be sastified no matter what your faction. Total victories generally don't exist.
Ok cool, so Chaos have been getting some hits in. Were they the outcome of psychic awakening, or just foot notes?
Can you take the off topic ‘Chaos never do anything of note in the lore’ elsewhere? Like maybe to where it belongs?
This discussion, if it wasn’t clear from the title; is centred around PA releases from the Greater Good onward.
GW have told us that the events of PA happen at a certain (though vague) point in the lore, knowing this - it would be bizarre if there were any major plot upheavals in the series.
We know neither Ghazzy nor Ragnar will die in Saga. We know this because their death isn’t mentioned in any of the lore that falls after the time when PA takes place. Technically I suppose Ghazzy could die because he’s messing with time but I think it’s very unlikely.
Might be an Armageddon scenario, where it ends in a stalemate because Ghaz is having such a good time he doesn't want the fighting to end. So I guess he'll have 2 "friends"?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It would be pretty great if the orks did win, just to mix things up a bit.
They probably won't though. Has xenos ever won in PA? Or chaos for that matter?
Does Chaos winning in Phoenix count? Although it's pretty sad if you only win because Imps weren't around and the writers also dropped the ball.
That is both sad and funny. Remember the start of 8th, where chaos kicks the imperium hard in the proverbial groin and things were set up to be getting dire and worse?
Pepperidge farm remembers.
Maybe for like 5 minutes that happened but Chaos has been getting kick up and down the street by a resurgent more powerful than ever Imperium with an Emperor 2 this time he's blue.
yeah having the Imperium split in two and half of it de facto lost is such a great victory. *eye roll* but the "Imperium never loses" brigade only counts a loss if Terra or Macragge burns.
Which directly after said splitting, Chaos got their ass handed to them by Marines version 2.0 that had just happened to exist in secret for millennia until such a time the plot calls for convenient literal deus ex machina.
That's not what that phrase means. Like at all.
Cops suddenly showing up and arresting the cast of Holy Grail? Deus ex Machina.
Prop plane from nowhere coming down from the sky and killing Mccougnahey at the end of Texas Chainsaw Massacre 4? Deus ex Machina.
NuMarines fighting for 100 years to set up the new status quo and NOT resolve the plot? Not Deus ex Machina.
The Psychic Awakening books act as a codex update for your armies.
Ah. It is just a codex update. Officially and everything.
So, what you're saying is, Psychic awakening is just mandatory extra codex stuff to try and force you to buy new books to match power with other books ? If only someone, anyone, or to be fair some people, saw this coming months and months before they dropped the first one. Some folks who were shouted down and told they were wrong. It's good to be proven right, fully from the horses mouth as the saying goes.
I'm sure no one will apologize for the vitriol thrown out over the topic so long ago, but I said I'd remember and I do. Vindication, feels so good.
We know how much they appreciate and listen to feedback.
Surprisingly, I don't have to tell GW that:
Spoiler:
They ever so helpfully provided this!
And Ynnari provided new rules for Harlequins.
Therefore the chart has been satisfied.
That's providing new rules for Harlequins used as Ynari though, not Harlequins themselves. Therefore the chart has not been satisfied.
They are still new rules that can be used by Harlequins. That people choose not to is their business.
Or at least, that's the reasoning I'm guessing GW will use.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Harlequins *shouldn't* get anything. Merely that I have a hard time seeing it. Eldar and Dark Eldar are considerably larger than Harlequins and they still got barely anything (especially compared to the subsequent PA books). Hence, it would be rather strange if the smallest Eldar faction was given more content than the other two combined.
At first, they were roughly, in terms of Codex contents, analogous to Skitarii and Tech-Priests.
Those two eventually (and sensibly) were united, and are getting a fairly significant expansion (not just in number of units, but as a percentage addition).
I'm no pointy ear, but Harlequins deserve some of the same.
Dunno. Skitarii and AdMech were new lines launched.
I think Harlequins were the model also used for Plague Marines/Death Guard and Rubric Marines/Thousend Sons.
Al three (Harlequins, Plague Marines, Rubric Marines) started as a single elite-choice in a different codex with outdated / finecast miniatures that weren't updated to a single plastic kit, but to (as was fashion at the time) mutliple kits that got a spin-off Codex to justity it.
tneva82 wrote: Eldar got make your own craftworld, stratagems, new exarch powers...Seems to be pretty much on par with other non-marine factions
Well, Eldar really just got 1 Stratagem repeated 8 or so times. They also got no Warlord Traits or Artefacts.
Also, i notice that you carefully ignored the other Eldar faction in that book. Namely Dark Eldar.
I'm guessing the reason you ignored them is because they got a pitiful pool of custom Obsessions and literally nothing else. Not a single new stratagem, relic or warlord trait, nor any equivalent of the aforementioned Exarch Powers Eldar received.
Well I don't know all that well what DE got except custom kabal building. Hard to comment on what I don't know. I have very little touch with dark eldars. At least with eldars I actually face them time to time. Dark eldars I face like once in a blue moon and last time was way before PA even started.
But sure. I could try to make up and make various claims on them without actually knowing anything about them That makes sense ;-) Or I could comment on the part of book that I have at least some idea.
edit: Actually now that it came up I did face custom kabal of dark eldars and as it happened it was practically tailor made against my necrons. Hard to say how good it was in practice seeing it was almost list tailoring(though we didn't know in advance we would be playing against each other when we designed lists. Just showed up on FLGS and since neither happened to have game and were there agreed to play and took out pre made forces).
tneva82 wrote: You don't need models to be in PA book. Look at tyranis, t-son's, grey knights etc for example
As for sisters W40k FB team said they can confirm sistes are getting rules in PA. And makes sense. The codex isn't clearly on same level as PA boosted factions(no custom orders etc) so either they get or they are at disadvantage. Would it have been nicer to have PA level in codex right away? Yes. But it's GW. They are going to charge money for it.
If they said so I guess I'll believe them - but I'm not sure I'd go with your view that they are at a disadvantage without custom traits. We have just had PA5, and based on the leaks, almost all the custom trait combos are probably worse than taking an existing trait. Farsight Enclaves will probably be interesting - but thats a buff rather than a custom option. I feel this is likely to go double for Sisters, because their traits are very powerful. (It may, in turn, mean they get amazing custom traits, but I wouldn't bet a lot on that).
The issue with Harlequins is that they are not far off a Tempestus scale faction who already got the Tempestus treatment. I'm sure someone will bitterly disagree - but I feel there are not 6 meaningfully different ways to run Harlequins, so there are not really 6 meaningfully different chapters.
So I mean yeah, nothing stops a phoned in list of "custom" traits, where 2/3rds are just weaker versions of the existing traits, and say 6 Masque specific psychic powers and a few new stratagems. But I have... very little optimism that it will change the faction. Without new models I'm not getting that excited - there is only so much you can do with Troupes, Transports and Jetbikes. But maybe I lack imagination.
Yeah, the only armies where custom traits are really good are those armies with garbo 1st wave codex traits like Eldar.
"Hmmm, should I take a 6+++FNP, or should I take the old salamanders chapter trait+an extra -1AP on a bunch of my weapons? HMMMMMMMMMMM....."
....Or space marines who just get to have their cake and eat it too, so you can swap out your trait for a custom one if you don't like it and keep all your good supplement rules.
tneva82 wrote: You don't need models to be in PA book. Look at tyranis, t-son's, grey knights etc for example
As for sisters W40k FB team said they can confirm sistes are getting rules in PA. And makes sense. The codex isn't clearly on same level as PA boosted factions(no custom orders etc) so either they get or they are at disadvantage. Would it have been nicer to have PA level in codex right away? Yes. But it's GW. They are going to charge money for it.
If they said so I guess I'll believe them - but I'm not sure I'd go with your view that they are at a disadvantage without custom traits. We have just had PA5, and based on the leaks, almost all the custom trait combos are probably worse than taking an existing trait. Farsight Enclaves will probably be interesting - but thats a buff rather than a custom option. I feel this is likely to go double for Sisters, because their traits are very powerful. (It may, in turn, mean they get amazing custom traits, but I wouldn't bet a lot on that).
The issue with Harlequins is that they are not far off a Tempestus scale faction who already got the Tempestus treatment. I'm sure someone will bitterly disagree - but I feel there are not 6 meaningfully different ways to run Harlequins, so there are not really 6 meaningfully different chapters.
So I mean yeah, nothing stops a phoned in list of "custom" traits, where 2/3rds are just weaker versions of the existing traits, and say 6 Masque specific psychic powers and a few new stratagems. But I have... very little optimism that it will change the faction. Without new models I'm not getting that excited - there is only so much you can do with Troupes, Transports and Jetbikes. But maybe I lack imagination.
Yeah, the only armies where custom traits are really good are those armies with garbo 1st wave codex traits like Eldar.
"Hmmm, should I take a 6+++FNP, or should I take the old salamanders chapter trait+an extra -1AP on a bunch of my weapons? HMMMMMMMMMMM....."
....Or space marines who just get to have their cake and eat it too, so you can swap out your trait for a custom one if you don't like it and keep all your good supplement rules.
Not entirely true, Tyranids have garbage early codex traits and some how even worse custom traits.
Harlequins are an interesting one. They don't really need new masques, warlord traits, relics or strats as the ones they have are actually very good for such a small faction (in other words..there are actual choices to be made). What they sorely need is unit expansions. A character on skyweaver, a named character (probably a solitaire), another foot model choice (doubtful though). It's just a faction you can't do much with really and I'm happy it has a solid range as is with a decent codex along side. Happy to be proven wrong though.
tneva82 wrote: You don't need models to be in PA book. Look at tyranis, t-son's, grey knights etc for example
As for sisters W40k FB team said they can confirm sistes are getting rules in PA. And makes sense. The codex isn't clearly on same level as PA boosted factions(no custom orders etc) so either they get or they are at disadvantage. Would it have been nicer to have PA level in codex right away? Yes. But it's GW. They are going to charge money for it.
If they said so I guess I'll believe them - but I'm not sure I'd go with your view that they are at a disadvantage without custom traits. We have just had PA5, and based on the leaks, almost all the custom trait combos are probably worse than taking an existing trait. Farsight Enclaves will probably be interesting - but thats a buff rather than a custom option. I feel this is likely to go double for Sisters, because their traits are very powerful. (It may, in turn, mean they get amazing custom traits, but I wouldn't bet a lot on that).
The issue with Harlequins is that they are not far off a Tempestus scale faction who already got the Tempestus treatment. I'm sure someone will bitterly disagree - but I feel there are not 6 meaningfully different ways to run Harlequins, so there are not really 6 meaningfully different chapters.
So I mean yeah, nothing stops a phoned in list of "custom" traits, where 2/3rds are just weaker versions of the existing traits, and say 6 Masque specific psychic powers and a few new stratagems. But I have... very little optimism that it will change the faction. Without new models I'm not getting that excited - there is only so much you can do with Troupes, Transports and Jetbikes. But maybe I lack imagination.
Yeah, the only armies where custom traits are really good are those armies with garbo 1st wave codex traits like Eldar.
"Hmmm, should I take a 6+++FNP, or should I take the old salamanders chapter trait+an extra -1AP on a bunch of my weapons? HMMMMMMMMMMM....."
....Or space marines who just get to have their cake and eat it too, so you can swap out your trait for a custom one if you don't like it and keep all your good supplement rules.
Not entirely true, Tyranids have garbage early codex traits and some how even worse custom traits.
I dunno, some of those look pretty solid to me. I know ignoring move and shoot heavy is one my nid playing friend has been very much enjoying. Move and shoot heavy+reroll 1s to hit within 6" of synapse has been pretty good for his nidzilla stuff.
bullyboy wrote: Harlequins are an interesting one. They don't really need new masques, warlord traits, relics or strats as the ones they have are actually very good for such a small faction (in other words..there are actual choices to be made). What they sorely need is unit expansions. A character on skyweaver, a named character (probably a solitaire), another foot model choice (doubtful though). It's just a faction you can't do much with really and I'm happy it has a solid range as is with a decent codex along side. Happy to be proven wrong though.
They could just give us back Land Raiders. Those'd help.
If Harlequins follow Cegorach the Laughing God would they still be Harlequins if they started following Ynnead the God of Death? I guess the answer is they are Reborn Harlequins. I would have preferred for the Harlequins to have gotten at least a new troupe type in PA instead of only being added to the Ynnari list, but it looks like this is all their going to get. So I guess they are off the list of upcoming armies.
The latest community article has a picture of space wolves old marines and terminators.
My interpretation of their message is:
"Remember 5th edition? When Space wolves were cool and dominated mid range combat.
When Terminators on the table put the fear of the emperor in your enemies.
Remember when assault cannons rocked!
REMEMBER 5TH EDITION!"
Fayric wrote: The latest community article has a picture of space wolves old marines and terminators.
My interpretation of their message is:
"Remember 5th edition? When Space wolves were cool and dominated mid range combat.
When Terminators on the table put the fear of the emperor in your enemies.
Remember when assault cannons rocked!
REMEMBER 5TH EDITION!"
My memberberries don't suffer from rose-tinted glasses. 5th through 7th were progressively worse and worse. 4th was the best ruleset until 8th came out - mainly because when 3rd was introduced it was so different than before that a bunch of weird cases popped up that 4th cleaned up. 5-7 is what turned me from a 40k player to not a 40k player. Awful, awful rules.
4th had the God awful Skimmer rules though. When I was new and playing Grey Knights (as I couldn't play my Necrons all the time), Skimmers almost felt like the opponent was cheating.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 4th had the God awful Skimmer rules though. When I was new and playing Grey Knights (as I couldn't play my Necrons all the time), Skimmers almost felt like the opponent was cheating.
I started in 4th and it was my favorite edition as well before 8th was released. even considering the skimmer rule. i had so many lascannons on the board opponents never brought skimmers anyway. but yes they were annoying
My memberberries don't suffer from rose-tinted glasses. 5th through 7th were progressively worse and worse. 4th was the best ruleset until 8th came out - mainly because when 3rd was introduced it was so different than before that a bunch of weird cases popped up that 4th cleaned up. 5-7 is what turned me from a 40k player to not a 40k player. Awful, awful rules.
I started with 4th edition and for me this is true. I had the best fun during 4th edition. It also had the most mature and fun fluff untill drinking the blood of sisters arrived.
I had a lot of fun with 4th ed too. There was some annoying stuff, but at least alpha strikes weren't that big of a problem due to how area terrain worked and how damage output wasn't as high as it is now.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 4th had the God awful Skimmer rules though. When I was new and playing Grey Knights (as I couldn't play my Necrons all the time), Skimmers almost felt like the opponent was cheating.
Ah yes, the time when my Falcons were indestructible!
2nd - Marines v Orks 3rd - Marines v Dark Eldar 4th - Marines v 'Nids (Battle for McDonalds) 5th - Marines v Orks 2: The Return of the Revenge 6th - HAHAHAHAH! 7th - Dark Marines v Chaos (or was that 6th and it was over so quickly everyone assumed this one was 7th?) 8th - Super Marines v Stinky Chaos
2nd - Marines v Orks
3rd - Marines v Dark Eldar
4th - Marines v 'Nids (Battle for McDonalds)
5th - Marines v Orks 2: The Return of the Revenge
6th - HAHAHAHAH!
7th - Dark Marines v Chaos (or was that 6th and it was over so quickly everyone assumed this one was 7th?)
8th - Super Marines v Stinky Chaos
2nd - Marines v Orks
3rd - Marines v Dark Eldar
4th - Marines v 'Nids (Battle for McDonalds)
5th - Marines v Orks 2: The Return of the Revenge
6th - HAHAHAHAH!
7th - Dark Marines v Chaos (or was that 6th and it was over so quickly everyone assumed this one was 7th?)
8th - Super Marines v Stinky Chaos
6th and 7th had the same basic box, in 6th it came with a LE interrogator chaplain, in 7th it came with a "aspiring champion" special mini that would later on become the stand alone exaulted champion mini
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It would be pretty great if the orks did win, just to mix things up a bit.
They probably won't though. Has xenos ever won in PA? Or chaos for that matter?
Does Chaos winning in Phoenix count? Although it's pretty sad if you only win because Imps weren't around and the writers also dropped the ball.
That is both sad and funny. Remember the start of 8th, where chaos kicks the imperium hard in the proverbial groin and things were set up to be getting dire and worse?
Pepperidge farm remembers.
Maybe for like 5 minutes that happened but Chaos has been getting kick up and down the street by a resurgent more powerful than ever Imperium with an Emperor 2 this time he's blue.
yeah having the Imperium split in two and half of it de facto lost is such a great victory. *eye roll* but the "Imperium never loses" brigade only counts a loss if Terra or Macragge burns.
Which directly after said splitting, Chaos got their ass handed to them by Marines version 2.0 that had just happened to exist in secret for millennia until such a time the plot calls for convenient literal deus ex machina.
That's not what that phrase means. Like at all.
Cops suddenly showing up and arresting the cast of Holy Grail? Deus ex Machina.
Prop plane from nowhere coming down from the sky and killing Mccougnahey at the end of Texas Chainsaw Massacre 4? Deus ex Machina.
NuMarines fighting for 100 years to set up the new status quo and NOT resolve the plot? Not Deus ex Machina.
The galaxy split in two, Imperium on the verge of defeat - suddenly Cawl pops into existence with a solution of an army of improved marines that turns the tide is the very definition of Deus Ex Machina. He is a "character or event that seems to exist just to effortlessly solve a problem that seems unsolvable"
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It would be pretty great if the orks did win, just to mix things up a bit.
They probably won't though. Has xenos ever won in PA? Or chaos for that matter?
Does Chaos winning in Phoenix count? Although it's pretty sad if you only win because Imps weren't around and the writers also dropped the ball.
That is both sad and funny. Remember the start of 8th, where chaos kicks the imperium hard in the proverbial groin and things were set up to be getting dire and worse?
Pepperidge farm remembers.
Maybe for like 5 minutes that happened but Chaos has been getting kick up and down the street by a resurgent more powerful than ever Imperium with an Emperor 2 this time he's blue.
yeah having the Imperium split in two and half of it de facto lost is such a great victory. *eye roll* but the "Imperium never loses" brigade only counts a loss if Terra or Macragge burns.
Which directly after said splitting, Chaos got their ass handed to them by Marines version 2.0 that had just happened to exist in secret for millennia until such a time the plot calls for convenient literal deus ex machina.
That's not what that phrase means. Like at all.
Cops suddenly showing up and arresting the cast of Holy Grail? Deus ex Machina.
Prop plane from nowhere coming down from the sky and killing Mccougnahey at the end of Texas Chainsaw Massacre 4? Deus ex Machina.
NuMarines fighting for 100 years to set up the new status quo and NOT resolve the plot? Not Deus ex Machina.
The galaxy split in two, Imperium on the verge of defeat - suddenly Cawl pops into existence with a solution of an army of improved marines that turns the tide is the very definition of Deus Ex Machina. He is a "character or event that seems to exist just to effortlessly solve a problem that seems unsolvable"
is it a deus ex machina if it DOESN'T solve the problem?
It solved a problem in a pretty staggeringly lazy way. Where were all these guys every other times the Imperium was nearly obliterated? Like, the loss of Cadia was huge, but didn't The Beast nearly invade Terra? Didn't Horus literally kill the emperor?
Also, I feel like it took away too much from the Emperor being this mystical supergenius that his most famed creations - the space marines - weren't A. something he created himself, alone, and B. needed help from a bunch of nerds to improve, and C. weren't the pinnacle of their design. I always liked the desperate mutilation of the creation process, but now that they can be upgraded to be better... takes it away from the emperor a bit. His mystery and his impossible intellect and mythical might is reduced if he had a bunch of helpers, too. Makes him seem less like the kind of guy who was kept semi-undead on a throne for 10000 years out of devotion, but for dull, practical reasons, like the astronomicon.
Also, characters like Cawl who have been alive for 10,000 years? Dull. Boring. Impossible. Part of what made the mythos of the heresy so interesting was it's unknowability, that so much had been lost to history.
But now all of that can be solved by Cawl and his magic infinite conciousness brains that know everything and was also there, but only in the shadows waiting specifically for...
...idk, the death of Colour Sgt. Krell I guess...?
posermcbogus wrote: It solved a problem in a pretty staggeringly lazy way. Where were all these guys every other times the Imperium was nearly obliterated? Like, the loss of Cadia was huge, but didn't The Beast nearly invade Terra? Didn't Horus literally kill the emperor?
Also, I feel like it took away too much from the Emperor being this mystical supergenius that his most famed creations - the space marines - weren't A. something he created himself, alone, and B. needed help from a bunch of nerds to improve, and C. weren't the pinnacle of their design. I always liked the desperate mutilation of the creation process, but now that they can be upgraded to be better... takes it away from the emperor a bit. His mystery and his impossible intellect and mythical might is reduced if he had a bunch of helpers, too. Makes him seem less like the kind of guy who was kept semi-undead on a throne for 10000 years out of devotion, but for dull, practical reasons, like the astronomicon.
Also, characters like Cawl who have been alive for 10,000 years? Dull. Boring. Impossible. Part of what made the mythos of the heresy so interesting was it's unknowability, that so much had been lost to history.
But now all of that can be solved by Cawl and his magic infinite conciousness brains that know everything and was also there, but only in the shadows waiting specifically for...
...idk, the death of Colour Sgt. Krell I guess...?
I agree with most of your comments, however the emperor wasn't the sole creator of marines and hasn't been since their inception.
There are a lot of aspects to cawls introduction and the consequences of him and his work that have affects on 40k larger than themselves
posermcbogus wrote: It solved a problem in a pretty staggeringly lazy way. Where were all these guys every other times the Imperium was nearly obliterated? Like, the loss of Cadia was huge, but didn't The Beast nearly invade Terra? Didn't Horus literally kill the emperor?
Also, I feel like it took away too much from the Emperor being this mystical supergenius that his most famed creations - the space marines - weren't A. something he created himself, alone, and B. needed help from a bunch of nerds to improve, and C. weren't the pinnacle of their design. I always liked the desperate mutilation of the creation process, but now that they can be upgraded to be better... takes it away from the emperor a bit. His mystery and his impossible intellect and mythical might is reduced if he had a bunch of helpers, too. Makes him seem less like the kind of guy who was kept semi-undead on a throne for 10000 years out of devotion, but for dull, practical reasons, like the astronomicon.
Also, characters like Cawl who have been alive for 10,000 years? Dull. Boring. Impossible. Part of what made the mythos of the heresy so interesting was it's unknowability, that so much had been lost to history.
But now all of that can be solved by Cawl and his magic infinite conciousness brains that know everything and was also there, but only in the shadows waiting specifically for...
...idk, the death of Colour Sgt. Krell I guess...?
I agree with most of your comments, however the emperor wasn't the sole creator of marines and hasn't been since their inception.
There are a lot of aspects to cawls introduction and the consequences of him and his work that have affects on 40k larger than themselves
I agree, when I was a kid it was the SM that were the emperor's greatest heros with Grey knights just above them. When I got back into it, now there's the Death watch who are better, Custodes who are even better, and now Primaris who are even betterer!
posermcbogus wrote: It solved a problem in a pretty staggeringly lazy way. Where were all these guys every other times the Imperium was nearly obliterated? Like, the loss of Cadia was huge, but didn't The Beast nearly invade Terra? Didn't Horus literally kill the emperor?
Also, I feel like it took away too much from the Emperor being this mystical supergenius that his most famed creations - the space marines - weren't A. something he created himself, alone, and B. needed help from a bunch of nerds to improve, and C. weren't the pinnacle of their design. I always liked the desperate mutilation of the creation process, but now that they can be upgraded to be better... takes it away from the emperor a bit. His mystery and his impossible intellect and mythical might is reduced if he had a bunch of helpers, too. Makes him seem less like the kind of guy who was kept semi-undead on a throne for 10000 years out of devotion, but for dull, practical reasons, like the astronomicon.
Also, characters like Cawl who have been alive for 10,000 years? Dull. Boring. Impossible. Part of what made the mythos of the heresy so interesting was it's unknowability, that so much had been lost to history.
But now all of that can be solved by Cawl and his magic infinite conciousness brains that know everything and was also there, but only in the shadows waiting specifically for...
...idk, the death of Colour Sgt. Krell I guess...?
I agree with most of your comments, however the emperor wasn't the sole creator of marines and hasn't been since their inception.
There are a lot of aspects to cawls introduction and the consequences of him and his work that have affects on 40k larger than themselves
I agree, when I was a kid it was the SM that were the emperor's greatest heros with Grey knights just above them. When I got back into it, now there's the Death watch who are better, Custodes who are even better, and now Primaris who are even betterer!
I’m deathwatch aren’t better, grey knights are slightly better, primarus is even more better and custodes are technically best.
Primarus are basically just a marine custodes hybrid.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:No it isn't but don't tell the people that hate Cawl that and keep calling him a Mary Sue despite not fitting the definition whatsoever.
He is the most mary-ist of all the Sue's.
But no, Cawl isnt the worst thing in the game....I mean at least he's not Tau.
SARCASM, it's corpse starch soup for the soul.
They do need to work on developing Him a little bit more (like his inferior, etc...).
Can someone explain to me what the last, 2 pages (?) has to do with the topic?
Not that some of these discussions aren't interesting, but they don't belong here. The entire pont of making a new thread was so that posters have a place to speculate on and discuss PA news without it getting clogged with off topic discussion.
Not that some of these discussions aren't interesting, but they don't belong here. The entire pont of making a new thread was so that posters have a place to speculate on and discuss PA news without it getting clogged with off topic discussion.
Back to topic, cheers.
yeah, it's a bit annoying having the thread get hijacked by the "Primaris bad" crowd.
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posermcbogus wrote: It solved a problem in a pretty staggeringly lazy way. Where were all these guys every other times the Imperium was nearly obliterated? Like, the loss of Cadia was huge, but didn't The Beast nearly invade Terra? Didn't Horus literally kill the emperor?
whats possiably more grim dark then the IoM having the solution to a problem and not deploying it because they needed the signature of a guy who was in stasis at the time?
whats possiably more grim dark then the IoM having the solution to a problem and not deploying it because they needed the signature of a guy who was in stasis at the time?
The blistering speed of bureaucracy. Or he didnt initial & date page 734 sec 3 line 44. He signed for a delayed deployment of +/- 8000 years
Nilok wrote: I can see the Hardened Missiles being a very common Sept Tenant, especially for Broadside detachments.
The only question I have is if Prototype weapons apply to every model in the unit, or a select model.
Looks good for Coldstars with Missile Pods too.
For the Prototype it depends on the weapon, the Magma Rail Rifles clear say it replaces every Heavy Rail Rifle in the unit, and the Gattling Burst Cannons are the same, but the defensive AFP clearly says model so only the one gets it.
If anyone has their books for greater good, Is their any generic tank ace traits? The Forgeworld Leman russ tanks don't have the Leman Russ keyword, and half the malcador tanks are not lord of war choices anymore.
Why would it be a joke ? If these are all supposed to buff power, sisters aren't exactly breaking the meta so they could benefit from it about as much as anyone else. As well, GW wanna GW why should they miss the power train while everyone else is already riding it ?
Not dropping some PA rules for sisters just because their codex is new just seems kinda lame for them and their players after already having had to wait forever for a codex and a model update.
If all you play is sisters you can't even be said to have book fatigue as you really only had one new book for awhile so far.
