Hi guys forgive my ignorance on the lore but I’ve looked up Sisters of battle and from my understanding they’re supposed to be the equivalent of female space marines correct? Curious how do they compare? Are they biologically enhanced like the space marines are? Do they have power armour? How do they work exactly?
They are not biological ally enhanced, but they are fanatical and they do wear power armor. There are orders of magnitude more Sisters than Space Marines, and sometimes they are able to perform miracles or manifest saints.
Space Marines are the poster boys for the company, though. They’ll always be (portrayed as) the best, even when they aren’t.
Mistresspaige wrote: Hi guys forgive my ignorance on the lore but I’ve looked up Sisters of battle and from my understanding they’re supposed to be the equivalent of female space marines correct? Curious how do they compare? Are they biologically enhanced like the space marines are? Do they have power armour? How do they work exactly?
They have powered armour that in most respects is on par with the Space Marines in terms of protection and longevity. Like their armour it also increases the strength of the user, making them physically stronger than, say, Guardsmen. However, Sisters lack the Black Carapace implant that lets Space Marines interface directly with their armour, so they aren't as nimble or effortless in their movement as Marines are. For them the armour is like a second skin.
They are not enhanced, at least not to nearly the same degree. A Space Marine is stronger, more durable, faster, and more enduring than a Sister of Battle or any human being that isn't heavily enhanced themselves.
These physical enhancements make Space Marines more formidable on an individual basis than Sisters of Battle most of the time. A Sister of Battle that catches shrapnel through her heart is going to die, whereas a Marine's second heart will compensate for the first one's loss and the Marine will be able to keep fighting. A Sister of Battle when grabbed by an Ork in close quarters will be overpowered, whereas a Marine will be able to fight back and most likely kill the Ork.
Now, there is an ex-factor to this, and those are the Acts of Faith, seeming miracles that the Sisters of Battle can rely on to win the day for them that the Marines don't have. With that said, I'm not much of a Sisters expert so I can't cite examples of this occurring in the fluff.
Like all factions it depends on what books you read.
In Gaunt's novel one of the Saints rips the turret off a Baneblade with her powered armoured hands, in Cain they are wiped out by gargoyles. If you read one of the Grey Knight books they are on par with Marines, almost.
If you read the Sister's books they are about even with most antagonists.
They are better trained, better armoured and have better guns than the Imperial Guard. Does that make them on par with Astartes? Not really but on a Guard-Astartes scale they are closer to Astartes.
They are pretty much as well-trained as marines, but they don't get the genetic enhancement - they're "just" incredibly well trained, incredibly dedicated veterans with the best weapon and armour the ecclesiarchy's near-limitless wealth can buy (far, far better than the mass-produced crud the guard get). The upshot is that in a fire-fight they're pretty comparable but in close in a knife-fight the marine is bigger, faster, stronger and tougher.
Of course, that's not a problem a divinely guided inferno pistol shot to the face can't cure.
Power armour does boost your strength, but sororitas eagle-pattern armour doesn't boost it enough for it to register in your S score in the 40k rules (it does in stuff like Roleplaying games). It is represented in more subtle ways, though (for example the reason Retributors can just hump heavy bolters around solo rather than being in a two-man heavy weapons team like the Imperial Guard).
Where they have a unique feature is that their faith is so pure and so strong that they actually get literal miracles happening in their favour.
They're definitely one of the most skilled military forces in the imperium, but they're one with a lot of legal restrictions to them - essentially they exist on the scale they do as a sort of legal loophole - the Ecclesiarchy (the 'church' in 40k) caused a massive civil war due to a psychopath named Goge Vandire ending up in charge.
After he was rather justifiably decapitated, one of the reforms was that the Ecclesiarchy signed the Decree Passive, which essentially forbids it to maintain any trained force of 'men at arms'.
The Daughters of the Emperor were an elite force at the time, but in the centuries post-Decree Passive, the Ecclesiarchy realised they weren't covered by it and poured vast amounts of money into expanding them into the Adepta Sororitas and they're now the primary military of the Ecclesiarchy and (to a lesser extent) the Ordo Hereticus of the Inquisition (the witch-hunters)
In terms of gear, they are roughly equivalent. Top end stuff from what the Imperium can produce. Bolters and power armor. The sisters tend to stick to the holy trinity (Bolter/flamer/melta) but have a pretty flexible armory.
Both forces are trained from an early age, and are fanatically loyal.
Sisters have their faith, which lets them pull off literal miracles. And are about the top end of what you can get out of an un-augmented human. They are the cream of humanity’s human forces.
Marines are biologically enhanced well past that point into post-human super soldiers. Faster/stronger/tougher, with enhancements that lets them do all sorts of things, one big one being to seamlessly interface with their power armor, treating it like part of their own body. This puts them on a different level for a lot of things.
In some things they are equal. A gunline of sisters snaping out a bolter drill is not that different from a squad of battle brothers doing the same. But marines are tougher. The can take wounds that would kill a normal human and keep fighting. They are stronger. Genetic enhancements turning you into a 7 foot tall wall of muscle does have some perks. In a mess of close combat these things can be critical.
So in some ways they are the same, but there are a lot of key differences.
Marines are superhuman and extremely hard to kill, far faster and stronger than humans. They then don Power Armour that makes them even more effective and durable.
Sisters are highly trained and effective soliders, clad in the same quality of Power Armour as Marines and also using the smae powerful Bolt guns, but the average Marine is more than a match for your average Sister (despite my sig )
Sisters in lore and the game sometimes receive the blessing of the Emperor - more so than most, but others also recieve his protection.
Both are revered and feared by the citizens of the Imperium as blessed by him - Even Cain who dislikes the Sisters as fanatics liable to get him kileld notes the awe they are held in by even the veterans in his units.
There is a possibilty that he can not see their glory as he is invariably accompanied by Jurgan who blocks psychic effects....
Mistresspaige wrote: Are they biologically enhanced like the space marines are? Do they have power armour? How do they work exactly?
Your typical sister of battle starts off as a student of one of the many Schola Progenium - typically an orphan of someone who died in military service of that of a noble.
The top graduates of the Progenium are picked out to be trained as stormtroopers, commissars, sororitas, and occasionally acolytes of the inquisition. It is an ecclesiarchal institution so the sisterhood get the pick of the bunch.
After that the different recruits go their separate ways, recieving training at one of the orders (either militant or non-militant - the sororitas are actually quite a large and diverse organisation outside of the regular battle sisters). Unlike the stormtroopers they are not physically augmented.
Their power armour was commissioned during the age of apostasy, likely a similar deal to the rosarius fields and immolator tank agreements with the mechanicus - an ongoing, unending supply in return for some STC fragment recieved by the ecclesiarchy's followers at some point in time. It is a powered exoskeleton with armour plates and environmental seal, and relatively little else compared to the marines life support suite and other enhancements.
The militant sisters are split into groups of varying size depending on their location, typically as defenders of holy sites or a pilgramage route. As required they will gather up for a more aggressive role, though the exact number of sisters in the Imperium is a number that varies greatly from author to author.
Outside of their faith and their superior equipment they are on the same kind of level as an imperial guard stormtrooper / scion, not a space marine.
pm713 wrote: In short 1 on 1 the Marine is better but at the level where you include squads etc the increased amount of Sisters makes them equal.
I disagree. In my opinion, a squad on 10 marines (Primaris or Firstborns) will wreck a squad of 20 sisters in pretty much any scenario or circumstances, barring external interventions. They're better trained, on average more experienced, can use their equipment to a greater extent, are much much tougher, more precise, better coordinated, react faster, etc. A 2:1 ratio doesn't bring the fight in the SoB's favour IMO.
pm713 wrote: In short 1 on 1 the Marine is better but at the level where you include squads etc the increased amount of Sisters makes them equal.
I disagree. In my opinion, a squad on 10 marines (Primaris or Firstborns) will wreck a squad of 20 sisters in pretty much any scenario or circumstances, barring external interventions. They're better trained, on average more experienced, can use their equipment to a greater extent, are much much tougher, more precise, better coordinated, react faster, etc. A 2:1 ratio doesn't bring the fight in the SoB's favour IMO.
Again, lore differs widely. I think one of the Gaunt's Ghosts books has a squad of IG taking down a chaos Space Marine. But then there's a nearly-destroyed SM chapter that still carries on the fight from INSIDE a Tyranid hive fleet, and I'm pretty sure there's a story of a single squad of SM holding a ruin against a 1000+ orks. So you'd likely never get an empirical ratio - if the Sisters are the heroes of a story, I'm betting 2-3 would take down a CSM. If you're reading a CSM story, then a squad of them would quite likely cut through an entire Sister's battleforce, all while principally focused on laughing as evilly as possible.
pm713 wrote: In short 1 on 1 the Marine is better but at the level where you include squads etc the increased amount of Sisters makes them equal.
I disagree. In my opinion, a squad on 10 marines (Primaris or Firstborns) will wreck a squad of 20 sisters in pretty much any scenario or circumstances, barring external interventions. They're better trained, on average more experienced, can use their equipment to a greater extent, are much much tougher, more precise, better coordinated, react faster, etc. A 2:1 ratio doesn't bring the fight in the SoB's favour IMO.
Again, lore differs widely. I think one of the Gaunt's Ghosts books has a squad of IG taking down a chaos Space Marine. But then there's a nearly-destroyed SM chapter that still carries on the fight from INSIDE a Tyranid hive fleet, and I'm pretty sure there's a story of a single squad of SM holding a ruin against a 1000+ orks. So you'd likely never get an empirical ratio - if the Sisters are the heroes of a story, I'm betting 2-3 would take down a CSM. If you're reading a CSM story, then a squad of them would quite likely cut through an entire Sister's battleforce, all while principally focused on laughing as evilly as possible.
Power scale and plot armor does fluctuate WILDLY across the fluff.
An interesting aspect to the sisters is that the way faith works, it allows you to guarantee certain things happen. I'd you've got a six in your MD pool, you can guarantee 6 damage on a melta hit.
Space Marines have high Toughness and Strength scores; primaris have multiple wounds. Space marines have a greater diversity of weapon options as well, and special bolter training which allows them to push the equipment to its limit.
But I space marine can guarantee you nothing; they've got a better native chance at winning the day, but they can't say, "Yep, if my Warlord fails this save, we're gonna lose, so guess I'll just use a miracle to make sure that doesn't happen."
We can.
Using Faith is tricky; it requires planning and practice. It's easier to achieve in PL games than Point games, because in PL games, you can maximize your faith buffers without having to pay for it.
But when we've got a loaded faith pool, we can do some pretty crazy things that most other armies cannot.
Individually, no. In game terms, you get twice as many Sisters as you do space marines.
In terms of the story, there are orders of magnitude more sisters than marines. if you put them all on one planet and had both fight it out, the sisters would roll right over the marines because it'd be like a couple thousand to one.
PenitentJake wrote: An interesting aspect to the sisters is that the way faith works, it allows you to guarantee certain things happen. I'd you've got a six in your MD pool, you can guarantee 6 damage on a melta hit.
Space Marines have high Toughness and Strength scores; primaris have multiple wounds. Space marines have a greater diversity of weapon options as well, and special bolter training which allows them to push the equipment to its limit.
But I space marine can guarantee you nothing; they've got a better native chance at winning the day, but they can't say, "Yep, if my Warlord fails this save, we're gonna lose, so guess I'll just use a miracle to make sure that doesn't happen."
We can.
Using Faith is tricky; it requires planning and practice. It's easier to achieve in PL games than Point games, because in PL games, you can maximize your faith buffers without having to pay for it.
But when we've got a loaded faith pool, we can do some pretty crazy things that most other armies cannot.
pm713 wrote: In short 1 on 1 the Marine is better but at the level where you include squads etc the increased amount of Sisters makes them equal.
I also disagree with this. The astartes are superior soldiers, can operate in more environments, can operate with less supplies and can be active for longer periods of time. They also posses some abilities like eating an opponents brain to learn what it knows and being able to recover from most wounds (by never bleeding out for instance). By contrast the sisters are little more then fanatical humans with fancy gear and combat training. There are situations where sheer numbers determine the outcome of engagments, like straight up pitched battles for instance, but there’s more situations where a company of marines would be able to out perform a far larger force of sisters. Pretty much any form of guerilla warfare, battle in confined areas, especially hazardous environments, shock engagments and wars of attrition all come to mind. Besides, if numbers determine the winner of an engagement then the guard far outperform both the astartes and the sisters any day.
Edit: Also the organization of the sisters as primarily an institution of faith can work against them when it comes to warfare. There can be instances where the sisters are far more interested in objectives related to the faith rather then actually winning a war. Of course The astartes can have similar problems where glory and personal honor are concerned. Still I feel like the astarte are taught to primarily be soldiers whilst the sisters are taught to primarily be upholders of the faith.
Edit 2:
Racerguy180 wrote: Sororitas are [...] the largest non-guard military organization in the imperium.
Pretty sure they’d be between the fourth to sixth biggest depending on how you look at things. The guard being the biggest is undeniable. Then it’d be the pdf as the second biggest. After that the skitarii or admdech depending on if you want to count them as separate organizations. After that you could make an argument for either the sisters, the imperial navy or the aeronautica imperialis. Both being huge military organizations though they are frequently treated as being part of the guard.
The Navy and Aeronautica are likely as big as the Guard - heck the Aeronautica are likely considered "Guard" by most lay people.
So those three branches are likely vastly outnumbering the others. They are the bulk of the Imperiums armies; the grunts that deal with the major wars and most of the combat.
Other groups are basically various forms or elite with the Space Marines the most elite of all, though their numbers are growing somewhat with the Primaris.
A way to think of it in lore is that Sisters of Battle are crusaders in a holy army. Space Marines are Angels given form on the battlefield. So yes they are far far more powerful in a one-on-one situation. With regard to numbers that is harder to quantify. The marines would likely destroy the Sisters of Battle if they went to war against each other. However the Sisters have far more numbers and thus could likely hold objectives and retake worlds more effectively than Marines. Marines are far more suited to the surgical strike against the heart of the enemy's power. Against greater demons and warped madness and greatest concentration of enemy power. Sisters of Battle can achieve similar ventures, but not without more numbers and resources or a LOT more faith and luck.
Note that in the lore just one Marine in a battle can turn the tide. Not just from their sheer power, but also the inspiration they create for those around them. Indeed many stories you might only see one or two Marines joining the fight.
the_scotsman wrote: Individually, no. In game terms, you get twice as many Sisters as you do space marines.
In game terms you get ~10-11 sisters for 8 old marines. Actually been around that ratio since 3rd, and it's only the recent marine firepower/assault buffs that have thrown it out the window (discouting formations).
But that's just game rules. In terms of story the number of sisters is all over the place. Currently the codex describes six major orders of indeterminate size (older lore mentioned them growing to 6-7 thousand) with potentially dozens of thousand strong preceptories, and each with multiple hundreds strong commanderies and so on. Plus the minor orders and non-militants.
Nerak wrote: Still I feel like the astarte are taught to primarily be soldiers whilst the sisters are taught to primarily be upholders of the faith.
If we're talking the Orders Militant, then that faith IS warfare. They're not faithful who choose to pick up a gun; once assigned to their order, their expression of faith is violence.
Also, while Space Marines are supersoldiers, there's one area of attrition that they are far more susceptible to - chaos. Sisters of Battle have a significantly better track record of resisting corruption.
think of it on a bell curve, the best of the Soriatus are way above the rank and file marine as much as the rank and file marine is above the Soriatus however the best of the marines is around on par in terms of combat power as the Soriatus saints, Primarchs are not Marines but Saints ARE humans still just infused with massive psychic power.
While I wouldn't say the average Battle Sister reaches that level, I would definitely say that veteran Sisters such as Celestians, Seraphim, and Zephyrim all easily reach or exceed your "standard" Marine level skills, and Canonesses could give Captains / Chapter Masters a run for their money-- particularly when under the throes of fanatic belief that manifests itself in an Act of Faith. For example, I'd say that an Order of the Bloody Rose canoness could very likely shred a non-close combat oriented Captain to bits! But pit up a Blood Angels captain against a less close-combat minded Canoness, and she'd make a valiant effort and impress him no doubt, but likely stand only a miracle's chance.
The various codices have stated that sisters are considered very comparable to Marines in-universe, and their statline matches that. Unaugmented, but supremely skilled, and their fanaticism allows them to reach feats that seem impossible.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Unless they're up against Grey Knights, that is.
Don't want to get "rulsey" in a fluff thread, but Sisters can really augment their forces in such away to expand upon their inherent psychic resistance. Against the right kind of sisters army, Grey Knights are just expensive marines.
Conversely, neither Grey Knights nor any other faction I'm aware of has the capacity to interfere with faith.
Melissia wrote: The various codices have stated that sisters are considered very comparable to Marines in-universe, and their statline matches that. Unaugmented, but supremely skilled, and their fanaticism allows them to reach feats that seem impossible.
There is no particular fluff reason why, faith aside, even the best sisters should be able to match a mook space marine.
None of the fluff that I can think of since Sister Sin from rogue trader would suggest they stand a chance one on one - physically their senses, reactions, speed, strength, and durability are no better than an elite guardsman and arguably worse than the augmented stormtrooper divisions. Just as with any other human a space marine to them is still a blur of speed and many times stronger.
Melissia wrote: The various codices have stated that sisters are considered very comparable to Marines in-universe, and their statline matches that. Unaugmented, but supremely skilled, and their fanaticism allows them to reach feats that seem impossible.
There is no particular fluff reason why
And yet the fluff specifically and repeatedly compares the two as equals.
Amusingly, in third edition veteran Sisters were actually better at close combat than most marines.
Melissia wrote: And yet the fluff specifically and repeatedly compares the two as equals.
Can you provide a source?
Way back in 5th I wrote an updated codex that involved transcribing pretty much everything from the earlier books and I don't recall any mention of this. The newest book mentions that novice sisters of battle are close to the level of veteran imperial guard while their mighiest heroes are as skilled - but by no means as strong or fast - as a space marine.
After all if a few years of prayer and training could make you the equal of a genetically engineered superhuman then you wouldn't bother with making the superhumans in the first place.
Well no, an average Sister is notably above an average Guardsman but notably below an average Space Marine(and i mean even without the thick plot-armour Marines get in too many stories). Named or faith-powered Sisters are a different story though, and someone like Saint Celestine obviously walks through average Marines like they're Toy Soldiers(which they of course kind of are XD).
However if you mean as a fraction, Sisters are probably even superior due to a massive numbers advantage. They would definitely overrun each single Chapter, and i'm not sure if there are even enough Space Marines as a whole without counting Chaos(but then again numbers in WH40K are always questionable).
gunchar wrote: Well no, an average Sister is notably above an average Guardsman but notably below an average Space Marine(and i mean even without the thick plot-armour Marines get in too many stories). Named or faith-powered Sisters are a different story though, and someone like Saint Celestine obviously walks through average Marines like they're Toy Soldiers(which they of course kind of are XD).
However if you mean as fractions, Sisters are probably even superior due to a massive numbers advantage. They would definitely overrun each single Chapter, and i'm not sure if there are even enough Space Marines as a whole without counting Chaos(but then again numbers in WH40K are always questionable).
*Except when it's the Sisters squad with the plot Armour
Lammia wrote: *Except when it's the Sisters squad with the plot Armour
Sisters plot armour tends to be a variation of "last sister standing", "and only three survived", or "dead but not forgotten".
Even on the tabletop you've got one living character, one resurrected character wearing the armour of another dead character, and an enthusiatic funeral procession (and most recently Stern, the thrice killed).
Lammia wrote: *Except when it's the Sisters squad with the plot Armour
Sisters plot armour tends to be a variation of "last sister standing", "and only three survived", or "dead but not forgotten".
Even on the tabletop you've got one living character, one resurrected character wearing the armour of another dead character, and an enthusiatic funeral procession (and most recently Stern, the thrice killed).
+1 for "enthusiastic funeral procession."
I think this is a lot of GW lore, being set in the grim darkness. Not many heroic deeds done with a full company at your back.
On the scale of different branches, there are 10 to 100 times as many PDF troops as IG. Then there are the non-Arbites Arbitrators (local last enforcement, exceedingly militarized by today’s standards), then Guard, Navy, Admech forces, Sisters and Arbites. There are probably more weaponized servoskulls and combat servitors than there are Sisters or Arbites, but nothing beats PDF for cost-efficient disposable soldiery.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Unless they're up against Grey Knights, that is.
Shouldn't the PDF be bigger then guard?
Considering all planets habe PDF forces but only a fraction of These enter the guard?
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BobtheInquisitor wrote: On the scale of different branches, there are 10 to 100 times as many PDF troops as IG. Then there are the non-Arbites Arbitrators (local last enforcement, exceedingly militarized by today’s standards), then Guard, Navy, Admech forces, Sisters and Arbites. There are probably more weaponized servoskulls and combat servitors than there are Sisters or Arbites, but nothing beats PDF for cost-efficient disposable soldiery.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Unless they're up against Grey Knights, that is.
Lammia wrote: *Except when it's the Sisters squad with the plot Armour
Sisters plot armour tends to be a variation of "last sister standing", "and only three survived", or "dead but not forgotten".
Even on the tabletop you've got one living character, one resurrected character wearing the armour of another dead character, and an enthusiatic funeral procession (and most recently Stern, the thrice killed).
+1 for "enthusiastic funeral procession."
I think this is a lot of GW lore, being set in the grim darkness. Not many heroic deeds done with a full company at your back.
I dunno, I find it really depends, some factions are simply written more heroicly then others. It's all about the styling of the faction. Guard for example are, typically, written as cogs in a machine foir the glory of the IoM, normal humans simply trying to survive in the face of hell etc. marines can vary from chapter to chapter a bit some being practially little more then cogs in the machine themselves (useally these are no name chapters killed to make an enemy look menacing, see Ebon Jaguars for exhibit A) to the space wolves whom are presented as "a company of heros all!"
generally SOBs tend to be presented as "powerful and capable iondividuals, willing the Martyr themselves. the last bit is important, Martyrdom is a big part of the SOB faction identity (to the point of one of their order tactics is built around it)
It's one of the reasons why, when we talk about game information, I frequently take exceptions to the fluff. This is a hard conversation, because it's working backwards.
In the books, marines probably are described as being faster, but in the game, we've both got the same move stat and initiative doesn't exist anymore, so the novels are wrong.
It's more than just the novels though- right in the BRB, they talk about the power of the geneseed and all the extra organs, but effectively, when you break it down, it amounts to a point of strength and a point of toughness.
Marines have insane levels of bolter skill and superior combat training, reflected by bolter discipline and combat doctrines, while sister perform miracles, invoke rituals prior to battle and are inherently resistant to psychic powers. It makes for a closer match-up than you tend to see in the novels.
The trailer for 9th ed linked earlier in the thread was beautiful. We saw the differences in the soldiers involved- the guard was a speed bump; the sister fought hard and skillfully but lack the sheer killing power to put the foe down- she took a grievous wound, and restored it with faith; when the marine showed up, he tore the enemy to pieces and turned the battle. When the alien army revealed its true power, the marines were to few to win on their own, but backed by the superior numbers of sisters, the whole became greater than the sum of its parts.
Primaris, of course, blow the doors right off of that rhino though, being ridiculously superior to both sisters and regular old marines.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: On the scale of different branches, there are 10 to 100 times as many PDF troops as IG. Then there are the non-Arbites Arbitrators (local last enforcement, exceedingly militarized by today’s standards), then Guard, Navy, Admech forces, Sisters and Arbites. There are probably more weaponized servoskulls and combat servitors than there are Sisters or Arbites, but nothing beats PDF for cost-efficient disposable soldiery.
Well, disposable certainly. But even the Guard looks down on PDF troops as completely useless, and gear-wise, they're often kitted the same. So cost-efficient is debatable at best, unless you mean strictly as bullet-catchers.
Guard stories that involve the PDF usually also talk about the need to train the up to basic Guard standards.
Mistresspaige wrote: Hi guys forgive my ignorance on the lore but I’ve looked up Sisters of battle and from my understanding they’re supposed to be the equivalent of female space marines correct? Curious how do they compare? Are they biologically enhanced like the space marines are? Do they have power armour? How do they work exactly?
The short version: One on one, a standard line Astartes would kill a Sister of Battle, but he wouldn't be able to do so completely effortlessly. The odds are against the Sister, but overall they're a lot closer match than pretty much anything else and an Astartes.
The closest thing to a Sister of Battle would probably be a hardened Arbites or Scion, and I mean they'd have to be a remarkable veteran to take her down.
Sisters are not genetically enhanced like Astartes. Astartes are more effective than a mortal human in power armor, generally speaking, because the armor is wired into their nervous system through the Black Carapace implant- and that makes them move 'with' the armor and vice versa, rather than having to 'wear it and move'. Couple that with the fact that Astartes can be centuries old, and spend most of that time killing or training to kill or trying to get somewhere and kill things, and you're talking about a terrifying killing machine.
Getting your ass kicked by an Astartes is pretty much expected for anyone who isn't an Astartes, according to the fluff.
Sisters are, however, rocking lighter and seemingly more maneuverable power armor than most it would seem. This makes them more effective than you'd think, and Sisters were rocking 'lightwight power armor' a long time before Belasarius Cawl said, "Hey, let's do Phobos armor" which goes to show you how good ideas aren't always contagious in the Imperium.
Marines are stronger and tougher, however Sisters of Battle balance this out with acts of faith (essentially, being so damned religious they break reality in a way). And they can just NOPE psyker powers, and they're more resistant to Chaos than most Astartes.
Overall, it seems there's a degree of admiration between the two- even if Sisters worship the Emperor and most Astartes don't (they 'venerate'). Astartes see the Sisters of Battle many times as the closest thing to an Astartes, and Sisters see Marines often times as the divine work of the Emperor made flesh.
Of course, sometimes it's funny- you can kinda tell Space Marines think Sisters are absolutely off their rocker in a good way, and it both amuses and surprises them how crazy Sisters can be. Basically- imagine Fire Marshall Bill, but a woman in power armor, and she's been given a flamer and told to go burn the bad things.
However, Sisters are more numerous than Space Marines- however, Space Marines have always kinda been the poster boys for the game so they'll be more common.
If you want some good reading, I can't think of any books off the top of my head but do some deep dives on Lexicanum.
Also, for about ten years people screamed for plastic sisters in literally every single discussion about 40k, and it seems that GW can't keep the basic line squads in stock.
Melissia wrote: And yet the fluff specifically and repeatedly compares the two as equals.
Can you provide a source?
Most Sisters of Battle codices state it, starting with the third edition one.
You can say "that's just propaganda", but that's the nature of 40k lore so the objection would be pointless.
I've not argued here that Marines aren't physically superior with their massive generic enhancements, but oddly enough said genetic enhancements don't actually do much for their skill. Most of them just help with raw power and survivability.
Secondary heart: Survivability. Ossmodula: Survivability Biscopea: More muscles. Haemastamen: Survivability Larraman's Organ: Survivability Catalepsean Node: Survivability Preomnor: Survivability Omophagea: An oddball one, allows them to gain basic intel by eating brains. Multi-lung: Survivability Occulobe: Low-light vision, better sight (Sisters get a similar boost through their helmets) Lyman's Ear: Better hearing (Sisters get a similar boost through their helmets) Sus-An Membrane: Survivability Oolitic Kidney: Survivability Neuroglotis: Superior sense of taste Mucranoid: Survivability Betcher's Gland: Acid/poison spit Progeniods: Reproductive gland Black Carapace: Neural link to power armor (Sisters have been retconned in to using cybernetics to have a similar effect, see the cyber-plugs on Repentia)
Of these, the only two that make the Marine have better reactions are the Occulobe and Lyman's Ear, however, it's noted since third edition that the Sororitas power armor helmet, particularly the Sabbat-pattern one worn by veterans, does a similar job (and there is no lore that indicates which one is actually better, but certainly a Space Marine out of power armor maintains their advantage in this regard where a Sister needs their power armor to keep up). A Space Marine is certainly stronger and certainly more durable than a Sororitas, but the skill a Space Marine has is not merely given to them, it's trained up over time. And the same is said of a Sister of Battle, thus why only veteran Sisters can match Space Marines in terms of skill.
I'd place SoBs on par with Bile's New Men. They are far and above normal humans, but one on one they are never going to go toe to toe with a Marine. When a SM can literally crush your skull with his bare hands you're not going to be fighting them in a "fair" fight anyway.
Melissia wrote: And yet the fluff specifically and repeatedly compares the two as equals.
Can you provide a source?
Most Sisters of Battle codices state it, starting with the third edition one.
Can you provide a verifiable source?
As I mentioned I have trawled extensively though the older books and transcribed significant portions of them - frankly the lore in the WH book was not that extensive and the closest I can see it to suggesting the sisters are the equal of marines is the opening "why play this faction" blurb stating that they are exceptionally well equipped, which was frankly stretching it with the 3e model line.
Melissia wrote: A Space Marine is certainly stronger and certainly more durable
And faster both in terms of speed and reactions, and with enhanced senses, and ... really every physical advantage. A veteran sister may certainly be more skilled and experienced than a novice marine but that's about it unless you get into faith.
I have no intention of playing the game of "any source A.T. doesn't like doesn't count". It's long-established lore, you don't have to like it or accept it, but that doesn't change anything except that you don't like it and accept it.
I have no intention of playing the game of "any source A.T. doesn't like doesn't count"
I literally have the books right here at my side, several in searchable format including one that I transcribed myself. I've even taken the time to re-read parts of several of them searching for these many apparently elusive quotes you are referring to and i've said as such.
So I call bs on your claimed quote and 'long established lore', on the grounds that every source you've claimed to support it does not in fact support it.
Melissia wrote: I've not argued here that Marines aren't physically superior with their massive generic enhancements, but oddly enough said genetic enhancements don't actually do much for their skill.
White the list is impressive it does leave out a few things. I’m not going to quote the organ in question but I’ll write what it does.
Less sleep: probably the biggest one. An astartes only require 4h of sleep, and even then is aware of it’s surroundings. Apparently it can be extended to a few days without sleep if necessary. I’m going to leave the daily training schedule of a marine here from Lexicanum, first published in sm codex 3ed: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Daily_rituals_of_a_Space_Marine —> less sleep and prayer=higher skill level.
The ability to filter toxins, change the color of your skin depending on sun intensity, waterbreathing and much more powerfull liver all suggest a space marine could pull off ambushes in the most hazardous environments, such as striking from under water, whilst the sisters are reliant on more straightforward warfare.
When cut off from your supply lines and the bolter runs dry the space marine will be in a far better position then the sororitas.
The ability to interrogate an enemy by eating their brain can no considered a skill.
Nerak wrote: The ability to filter toxins, change the color of your skin depending on sun intensity, waterbreathing and much more powerfull liver all suggest a space marine could pull off ambushes in the most hazardous environments, such as striking from under water, whilst the sisters are reliant on more straightforward warfare.
... or they just use their vacuum-sealed power armor to do the same thing. Not that either Space Marines or Sisters are particularly well known for relying on striking from hiding; the ones that do are exceptions to the norm (Raven Guard come to mind). A lot of a Space Marine's organs' effects can be, and are, replaced by technology. That said, it is certainly true that Marines can train more extensively with the increased stamina and durability their extra organs and special diet give them. Thus why the average Space Marine has a great deal of skill, and only veteran Sisters with both extensive training and battlefield experience can match them.
Melissia wrote: .. or they just use their vacuum-sealed power armor to do the same thing. Not that either Space Marines or Sisters are particularly well known for relying on striking from hiding; the ones that do are exceptions to the norm (Raven Guard come to mind).
Uh, Phobos Armor...?
Legion Recon squads?
...Scouts? And several scouts have been full Astartes, if I'm not mistaken.
I'll pick some nits though! Scouts and Legion Recon troops both typically use camo cloaks to enhance their stealth abilities and, furthermore, also usually stay in their armor rather than attempting to go armorless for stealth purposes. And both of those are, again, exceptions to the norm, they're not your "typical" marine force and not your typical marine tactics.
And while it's true that Reiver power armor has silent motors and thus are stealthy, they actually don't seem to be lored as attacking from hiding, but rather as shock and terror troops attempting to demoralize the enemy. You'd think with silent power armor, they'd be an actual stealth unit, but GW being what it is...
I'm not sure "who's better at stealth" is really the rock one should want to die upon for a thread like this. I'll fully agree that Marines are typically better at stealth, if nothing else because Sisters would basically almost never use stealth anyway, at most they might ambush in an urban combat environment or something.
I'll pick some nits though! Scouts and Legion Recon troops both typically use camo cloaks to enhance their stealth abilities and, furthermore, also usually stay in their armor rather than attempting to go armorless for stealth purposes. And both of those are, again, exceptions to the norm, they're not your "typical" marine force and not your typical marine tactics.
And while it's true that Reiver power armor has silent motors and thus are stealthy, they actually don't seem to be lored as attacking from hiding, but rather as shock and terror troops attempting to demoralize the enemy. You'd think with silent power armor, they'd be an actual stealth unit, but GW being what it is...
I'm not sure "who's better at stealth" is really the rock one should want to die upon for a thread like this. I'll fully agree that Marines are typically better at stealth, if nothing else because Sisters would basically almost never use stealth anyway, at most they might ambush in an urban combat environment or something.
Well, you're also misunderstanding: Covert/Stealth doesn't always mean 'completely hidden'. An old adage is "It is not essential that the enemy be taken unaware, only that he becomes aware too late to react effectively". An Ambush doesn't mean you're going to be sneaking right up in close quarters- ranged combat, surprise attacks- this can all be done (and usually is) at a long range, where by the time you could even see the big power armored guy- he's dumping rounds into your face.
And yes, they are 'typical'- because those are a component of Astartes forces. They aren't standard 'tactical' troops, but they are no less atypical than assault marines or devastators.
Sisters, however, have a more direct focus. And that's fine, they're a mortal force and their strength is in their zeal.
I still don't think they're 'on par with Space Marines'- I do, however, feel that a force of Sisters and a force of Astartes may be able to functionally perform most of the same mission types, with stealth being excluded.
Melissia wrote: I'd say Reivers are more likely to be cutting your face off than pumping bolter shells in to it, since terror troops.
I'd say that the 'terror' aspect comes more from the vox-things on their mask. And I'd say that the 'terror' more depends on what bothers you more- watching your buddy get blasted into gibbets, or watching him get cut in half.
Nerak wrote: The ability to filter toxins, change the color of your skin depending on sun intensity, waterbreathing and much more powerfull liver all suggest a space marine could pull off ambushes in the most hazardous environments, such as striking from under water, whilst the sisters are reliant on more straightforward warfare.
... or they just use their vacuum-sealed power armor to do the same thing. Not that either Space Marines or Sisters are particularly well known for relying on striking from hiding; the ones that do are exceptions to the norm (Raven Guard come to mind). A lot of a Space Marine's organs' effects can be, and are, replaced by technology. That said, it is certainly true that Marines can train more extensively with the increased stamina and durability their extra organs and special diet give them. Thus why the average Space Marine has a great deal of skill, and only veteran Sisters with both extensive training and battlefield experience can match them.
While all this is true guerilla warfare supposedly one of the marines 3 main tactics. At least according to 4th ed codex, which might very well have changed since. As I recall they used primarily 1 surgical strikes (drop pod assults), 2 Armoured warfare (tanks and transports) and 3 guerilla warfare. It doesn't get a whole lot of attention though in litterature, not to my knowledge anyway. As for tech replacing the marines inherent abilites the armours must come off at some points. Things like eating needs to be done without the helmet (unless it has some automatic feed system I'm unaware off). I guess you can sleep in a power armour but it's got to be very uncomfortable and porbably lower your battle prowess due to fatigue as a result. This wouldn't be a problem in most warzones but it can certainly be a huge deal in others. I suppose my point is that there's a flexibility to the astartes and their abilities to operate in various forms of warfare while the sisters are much more niched in how they are able to wage war, and more dependant on Imperial supplies.
Space Marines are not human. They tire far less easily, can go for long periods of time without sleep, have better recall, are less psychologically impacted by the horrors of war, don't have familial relationships or 'urges' like a human, and generally have relatively little in the way of interests and hopes and dreams that aren't devoted to war. They can exist in their suits for long periods of time without having to stop to eat or have a wee (not sure how comparable to Sisters they are in that). They are less likely to get injured, and are less impaired by the same injuries (and are more likely to get effective medical treatment and replacement parts).
Added to that they live for a really long time (if not killed in action), and are part of a military organisation with supporting assets focused on getting them into combat fast, and being in combat often.
In short, a Space Marine has huge amounts of combat experience. In the same war zone as a human they will clock up way more combat experience over the same time period. Because they're not taking time out to eat, sleep, bandage wounds, complain about rations, fear for their lives, or worry for their loved ones. And they'll live much longer and have a greater proportion of their lives devoted to war because they don't get old in the way that a human does. And when they're not fighting, they're going to spend way more of their time training for war than a human can because of the difference in their psychology and because they sleep less.
Sisters are better than marines in certain aspects...for example half the Space marines have turned traitor being corrupted by chaos. Last i checked there has NEVER been a Sisters of battles Order ever fall for chaos.
So this is not a clear cut point, there are times space marines kill civilians without a second thought. The Sisters are much more likely to save people rather than kill people. So if your going to be saved in general the Sisters of battle would be a much better choice.
Rebel4ever85 wrote: Sisters are better than marines in certain aspects...for example half the Space marines have turned traitor being corrupted by chaos. Last i checked there has NEVER been a Sisters of battles Order ever fall for chaos.
I wonder if this is true or if any information of sisters falling to chaos is kept under wraps by the Imperium. There's at least one sister that canonically switched team, is she really the exception or just the only one the Ecclesiarchy couldn't hide?
Tiennos wrote: I wonder if this is true or if any information of sisters falling to chaos is kept under wraps by the Imperium. There's at least one sister that canonically switched team, is she really the exception or just the only one the Ecclesiarchy couldn't hide?
The line is there was only one willing fall.
More than one corrupted / possessed sister in the official lore however.
Rebel4ever85 wrote: Sisters are better than marines in certain aspects...for example half the Space marines have turned traitor being corrupted by chaos. Last i checked there has NEVER been a Sisters of battles Order ever fall for chaos.
I wonder if this is true or if any information of sisters falling to chaos is kept under wraps by the Imperium. There's at least one sister that canonically switched team, is she really the exception or just the only one the Ecclesiarchy couldn't hide?
From the SoB Omnibus we learn that any of them that go traitor are covered up by surgically altering a Sister to replace them. All traitor Sisters are officially non existent except one who serves as an example they can fall so they can't be complacent.
Daemonifuge has a load of Sisters falling to corruption but I'm not sure if that's side switching or outright possession.
But since 6's always save, and 6's always wound, a sister with enough 6's in the Miracle Dice pool can kill anything one on one, not just marines.
Marines may have better training and transhuman physiology and all that tripe, but miracles come from the Emperor himself and only Sisters get them.
Fluff is great, but where it contradicts rules, it is incorrect. If the game was based on the fiction, it would be a different story, but in GW's case, the fiction is based on the game.
Fluff is great, but where it contradicts rules, it is incorrect. If the game was based on the fiction, it would be a different story, but in GW's case, the fiction is based on the game.
But is it?
The fluff is the lore, the tabletop is a representation of the universe. An innacurate and incomplete one. The "rules" are an attempt to formalize the fluff to be representative of a battle, not be prescriptive. The rules are merely descriptive.
I'd say the fluff vastly outweighs the rules innterms of "whats correct", even if it is blatantly self contradictory. Plot armour and "because the script needs it to happen" be damned.
But since 6's always save, and 6's always wound, a sister with enough 6's in the Miracle Dice pool can kill anything one on one, not just marines.
Marines may have better training and transhuman physiology and all that tripe, but miracles come from the Emperor himself and only Sisters get them.
Fluff is great, but where it contradicts rules, it is incorrect. If the game was based on the fiction, it would be a different story, but in GW's case, the fiction is based on the game.
That is the exact opposite of how things work.
So how do you manage the wild inconsistency? Are Eldar faster walkers than guardsmen or the same speed? How do they decide whose turn it is to fight in a planetary scale? The idea that game mechanics override fluff is ridiculous.
I see the point, fluff is, at the best of times somewhat inseparable from the mechanics. Sorry if it seems like derailing the thread- I will bend it back... Promise.
Allow me to clarify my stance:
Lord of the Rings was a novel first. Where the movie contradicts the book, the movie is wrong, because the book is the original intellectual property. The game could be explicitly based on either the book or the movie, or it could try to be true to both (very hard; they'd literally have to avoid depicting anything where the movie and the book differ). In either case, if it contradicts its basis, then it is wrong.
So let's be clear on fluff, because there's some grey here. Fluff has always been included in the rules material, and that fluff is cannon until retconned, at which point the retcon becomes the new cannon.
40K novels, however, did not exist before Rogue trader. They are written by people who, in many cases, are disconnected from the ongoing development and maintenance of the actual intellectual property upon which their work is based.
This is not to say that all of the information in the novels is invalid- the vast majority of it is valid because it is consistent with the information contained in the rule books. It's only in cases of contradiction where this is an issue. And, of course, all of it meets GW's standards and thus has their tacit seal of approval.
But consider the fact that fiction is susceptible to the phenomenon of the unreliable narrator in a way that rules are not. Whether or not Marines move too fast for the human eye really depends on the human who's narrating, but that marine's 6" move stat is objective truth.
Eldar do walk 17.3% faster than guardsmen, and banshees walk faster than other Eldar. By inconsistencies, I assume you mean members of a species who don't fit the norms. Are there overweight Eldar who don't walk as fast as their kin? Probably; but those Eldar don't become guardians or aspect warriors.
If you mean inconsistencies in the rules, you'll have to give me specifics, because Eldar being faster walkers than humans is not an inconsistency; it's well established by rules, background in official gaming books and the novels.
Marines are physically stronger than sisters (until the sister prays) and physically tougher (until she prays) but they don't walk faster (even when she prays). There are circumstances, usually related to training, that may allow variations; these are represented on the table by strategems, and probably can be made to account for many of the superhuman scenes depicted in novels. Bolter Discipline is training, and it is a huge advantage for marines- again, represented in rules, background and novels.
Primaris take things to a whole other level- if the discussion was about a sister vs. a primaris, I wouldn't even be questioning the marine superiority. Even with the Emperor backing us up, a Primaris is going to curb stomp our girls all day long.
And this is where you go wrong. Marines have always been portrayed as faster than humans. Post-human dread is a thing when fighting things that are faster than a speeding bullet, can leap tall buildings in a single bound and are almost impervious to bullets. The SoB aren't that. They are good and on a normal human scale they are top tier and bloody good, but they are not top dogs.
That's been in fluff and hasn't been reflected in the rules.
That doesn't make it false.
Even if the primary cause was RT the fluff universe has taken over as the lore. The tabletop is just a reflection of that. Loke I said, descriptive not prescriptive.
And this is where you go wrong. Marines have always been portrayed as faster than humans. Post-human dread is a thing when fighting things that are faster than a speeding bullet, can leap tall buildings in a single bound and are almost impervious to bullets. The SoB aren't that. They are good and on a normal human scale they are top tier and bloody good, but they are not top dogs.
That's been in fluff and hasn't been reflected in the rules.
That doesn't make it false.
Even if the primary cause was RT the fluff universe has taken over as the lore. The tabletop is just a reflection of that. Loke I said, descriptive not prescriptive.
Back when Initiative was a thing, Marines moving faster was reflected by having I4 rather than I3 like most humans.
They are also described in a lot of recent lore as walking/running faster, but clearly not by enough to escape the M6 bracket (remember stats represent a range, Marines will be at the top of the M6 range but not quite far enough to be M7
Rebel4ever85 wrote:So this is not a clear cut point, there are times space marines kill civilians without a second thought. The Sisters are much more likely to save people rather than kill people. So if your going to be saved in general the Sisters of battle would be a much better choice.
I'd actually disagree on this. Sisters are *super* zealous and fanatical, it's literally the source of their supernatural powers - and in 40k, being zealous and fanatical means killing anyone who isn't immediately faithful and strong enough. They'd see civilians as weak, and more likely band them into Frateris Militia groups to act as human meatshields, or just general treat them with disdain. At least most Marine Chapters are more likely to simply ignore them.
I'd trust Salamanders, Blood Angels, Ultramarines and Space Wolves any day to entrust civilian lives than to Sisters. Sisters are more likely to behave more like Black Templars, Marines Malevolent and Iron Hands, from my understanding.
Sisters from the Order of the Bloody Rose and Our Martyred Lady may have a limited amount of compassion for civilians, but like Marine chapters, their orders are varied. Sister like the hospitallers are specifically tasked to take care of soldiers and civilians.
Also, I wouldn't put the Marines Malignant with the Iron Hands and Black Templars. The latter two are cold and ruthless, but the former are just borderline washout donkey-caves that no one likes.
Rebel4ever85 wrote: Sisters are better than marines in certain aspects...for example half the Space marines have turned traitor being corrupted by chaos. Last i checked there has NEVER been a Sisters of battles Order ever fall for chaos.
I wonder if this is true or if any information of sisters falling to chaos is kept under wraps by the Imperium. There's at least one sister that canonically switched team, is she really the exception or just the only one the Ecclesiarchy couldn't hide?
Keep in mind i said an ORDER or if you want space marine term - chapter. The Space marines were corrupted on mass...they sisters have never been subject to this.
Rebel4ever85 wrote: Sisters are better than marines in certain aspects...for example half the Space marines have turned traitor being corrupted by chaos. Last i checked there has NEVER been a Sisters of battles Order ever fall for chaos.
I wonder if this is true or if any information of sisters falling to chaos is kept under wraps by the Imperium. There's at least one sister that canonically switched team, is she really the exception or just the only one the Ecclesiarchy couldn't hide?
Keep in mind i said an ORDER or if you want space marine term - chapter. The Space marines were corrupted on mass...they sisters have never been subject to this.
You don't really need to specify... as a rule it doesn't happen. There have been a few other BL stories with sisters that have fallen to the temptations of Chaos, but that feels like it was because the author got hard vetoed on having a GK character fall...
Warning, very spoiler heavy post. On the subject of SoB doing questionable things in somewhat large numbers.
this was from Redemption corps by Rob Sanders. It's the only occasion I can think of when sisters went mass... Well not traitor but radical.
Spoiler:
It's that one time a sister order decided to breed ork-geenestealer hybrids to create super orks that would be sent against the Imperium in order to make the imperium stronger.
Other then that I guess is the case from Cains last stand by Sandy Mitchell where
Spoiler:
a bunch (like 20-100? It never really specifies) of sisters get mass mind controlled by a chaos sorcerer. Two that get the mind control broken towards the end immediately commit suicide
Oh and there's been a few times sisers had to do the dirty work of the inquisition like in Death or glory by Sandy Mitchell where
Spoiler:
Sisters of battle storm and slaughter an adeptus mechanicus institution in order to get a artifact that turns people into psykers
I can recall a few stories where individual sisters have fallen to chaos, but appart from the redemption corps example I can't think of an incident where they've done weird things en masse. Maybe that Dark heresy incident with the false saint would count? Not sure how involved they where in that though.
Edit: haha, this is the 66 reply to this thread. Cool.
Melissia wrote: And yet the fluff specifically and repeatedly compares the two as equals.
Can you provide a source?
Most Sisters of Battle codices state it, starting with the third edition one.
You can say "that's just propaganda", but that's the nature of 40k lore so the objection would be pointless.
I've not argued here that Marines aren't physically superior with their massive generic enhancements, but oddly enough said genetic enhancements don't actually do much for their skill. Most of them just help with raw power and survivability.
Secondary heart: Survivability.
Ossmodula: Survivability
Biscopea: More muscles.
Haemastamen: Survivability
Larraman's Organ: Survivability
Catalepsean Node: Survivability
Preomnor: Survivability
Omophagea: An oddball one, allows them to gain basic intel by eating brains.
Multi-lung: Survivability
Occulobe: Low-light vision, better sight (Sisters get a similar boost through their helmets)
Lyman's Ear: Better hearing (Sisters get a similar boost through their helmets)
Sus-An Membrane: Survivability
Oolitic Kidney: Survivability
Neuroglotis: Superior sense of taste
Mucranoid: Survivability
Betcher's Gland: Acid/poison spit
Progeniods: Reproductive gland
Black Carapace: Neural link to power armor (Sisters have been retconned in to using cybernetics to have a similar effect, see the cyber-plugs on Repentia)
Of these, the only two that make the Marine have better reactions are the Occulobe and Lyman's Ear, however, it's noted since third edition that the Sororitas power armor helmet, particularly the Sabbat-pattern one worn by veterans, does a similar job (and there is no lore that indicates which one is actually better, but certainly a Space Marine out of power armor maintains their advantage in this regard where a Sister needs their power armor to keep up). A Space Marine is certainly stronger and certainly more durable than a Sororitas, but the skill a Space Marine has is not merely given to them, it's trained up over time. And the same is said of a Sister of Battle, thus why only veteran Sisters can match Space Marines in terms of skill.
Marines also have superior reach, due to their greater size, and due to their enhancements tire less fast. assuming equal skill levels, the Marine will have the advantage, and Marines durability means they can survive wounds that would kill a sister and return to the fight, with greater experiance as a result. but yeah, a sister with eneugh experiance can certainly compensate for this. but yeah Marines have, physically speaking, every advantage. And a Marine vetern is likely far far more experianced then a sister vetern
Let’s please don’t start encouraging some reputation for Sisters being psychos like the Marines Malevolent or the Iron Hands, or Space Marines generally for that matter. First, the Adepta Sororitas is a far more ubiquitous and important institution in Imperial society than the vanishingly rare, overwhelmingly aloof Adeptus Astartes warriors. Sisters can be found pretty much wherever the Ecclesiarchy can be found. And in addition to its Orders Militant, the Adepta is comprised of other branches which minister to the faithful as their primary vocation. Every once in a while some Space Wolf or Salamander might idiosynractically do something nice for a mere “mortal” but the Sisters constantly take care of the poor and sick as part of their essential duty.
Manchu wrote: Let’s please don’t start encouraging some reputation for Sisters being psychos like the Marines Malevolent or the Iron Hands, or Space Marines generally for that matter. First, the Adepta Sororitas is a far more ubiquitous and important institution in Imperial society than the vanishingly rare, overwhelmingly aloof Adeptus Astartes warriors. Sisters can be found pretty much wherever the Ecclesiarchy can be found. And in addition to its Orders Militant, the Adepta is comprised of other branches which minister to the faithful as their primary vocation. Every once in a while some Space Wolf or Salamander might idiosynractically do something nice for a mere “mortal” but the Sisters constantly take care of the poor and sick as part of their essential duty.
and yet it is their fanaticism that makes them just as dangerous.
It's a bit like radicalised religiously indoctrinated soldiers. They don't ask questions, they are easily abused for persons whith their own ambitions, and just as likely to torch you, torture you ,etc. for just disagreeing on religious dogma if not lead carefully.
Manchu wrote: Let’s please don’t start encouraging some reputation for Sisters being psychos like the Marines Malevolent or the Iron Hands, or Space Marines generally for that matter.
Oh really?
Have you ever met the religious orders? As an Irish person, from a catholic background, I can say quite humorously that nuns are actually quite terrifying. Go watch father ted.
Now, if I want to darken the conversation, and point to the actual abuses that the religious orders got up to, covered up and have perpetuated in my, or in other countries, even in the most recent histories abuses of which I might add the nuns were no strangers to, and yes, the source material for sisters being psychos is a perfectly valid POV, especially considering the over the top times a thousand nature of 40k.
Manchu wrote: First, the Adepta Sororitas is a far more ubiquitous and important institution in Imperial society than the vanishingly rare, overwhelmingly aloof Adeptus Astartes warriors. Sisters can be found pretty much wherever the Ecclesiarchy can be found. And in addition to its Orders Militant, the Adepta is comprised of other branches which minister to the faithful as their primary vocation. Every once in a while some Space Wolf or Salamander might idiosynractically do something nice for a mere “mortal” but the Sisters constantly take care of the poor and sick as part of their essential duty.
Surely their ubiquity makes them all the more terrifying. Our various churches were supposed to do that whole 'ministering to the faithful' thing as well and we're often quite nasty about it and did plenty other shady stuff besides.
I have no problems with the idea of sisters looking at the common rabble and hive scum of the imperium and viewing them with nought but contempt and not giving a whit what becomes of them.
Manchu wrote:Let’s please don’t start encouraging some reputation for Sisters being psychos like the Marines Malevolent or the Iron Hands, or Space Marines generally for that matter. First, the Adepta Sororitas is a far more ubiquitous and important institution in Imperial society than the vanishingly rare, overwhelmingly aloof Adeptus Astartes warriors. Sisters can be found pretty much wherever the Ecclesiarchy can be found. And in addition to its Orders Militant, the Adepta is comprised of other branches which minister to the faithful as their primary vocation. Every once in a while some Space Wolf or Salamander might idiosynractically do something nice for a mere “mortal” but the Sisters constantly take care of the poor and sick as part of their essential duty.
Yeah, no, still going to disagree there.
Aside from *dedicated* units like Hospitallers acting in civilian fields, I don't see your actual combat Battle Sisters caring in ANY way about the citizenry beyond that they're the Emperor's people. They don't care about *humans*, they care about the Emperor's faithful (and that's more just because of the Emperor). They are fanatical, single minded, and devout to the Church, not to the people.
Space Marines are devout to their own honour and codes of conduct. This can range from codes of absolute intolerance and fanaticism (just like the Sisters) in the form of the Black Templars, or to civilian protection and at least some thought being put towards them, in the form of the Ultramarines. Space Marines are more varied, yes, and are typically aloof and removed from humans - but saying that Sisters "constantly take care of the poor and sick" is simply not true. The non-combatant branches of the Sisterhood, yes - Hospitallers, Dialogus, Famulous - but the Orders Militant couldn't care less beyond the whole "you worship the Emperor? good enough" part, and will probably just see them as a writhing rabble. And touching on that "far more ubiquitous institution", yes, they are, but that's the ENTIRE Adepta Sororitas, not the Orders Militant. Orders Militant aren't going to be something you'll really see unless you're on a Shrine World or in a warzone where the Sisters are present.
I think the morale boost that Imperial citizens get from the Sororitas (Militant, at least) is less of something that the Sisters actually go out of their way to foster, and more just "we've been visited by the Emperor's faithful!" in much the same way it happens with Space Marines. Obviously, dedicated groups like the Hospitallers and Dialogus are more in touch with the people, but a Battle Sister? Couldn't care less.
Not Online!!! wrote: It's a bit like radicalised religiously indoctrinated soldiers. They don't ask questions, they are easily abused for persons whith their own ambitions, and just as likely to torch you, torture you ,etc. for just disagreeing on religious dogma if not lead carefully.
Strictly speaking one of their primary duties is to question the authority of the ecclesiarchy, and execute any of the priesthood who might be leaning the same way as Vandire.
In all fairness, that extract can also be interpreted as the Sisters choosing the path of least complication - waste ammunition on rioters already past the defences, possibly lose control, and jeopardise your own troops, or let them go and preserve your own authority and troops.
If I'm not mistaken, the Sisterhood are more than happy to let parts of the planet fall, regardless of the civilian populations.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: In all fairness, that extract can also be interpreted as the Sisters choosing the path of least complication
It could be interpreted as many things, but ultimately this was the water supply keeping the sisters alive so surrendering it to avoid excess ammunition expenditure makes little sense.
That and the sisters being fanatical elite soldiers expected (and seen) to charge into battle against the likes of giant blade wielding necrons seem unlikely to bail out at the first hint of insurrection from a crowd of cowed, starving civilians with torches and pitchforks.
First of all, this isn’t the place to discuss IRL religions. First and last warning on that front.
Second, I think you all need to keep in mind that we are talking about Warhammer 40,000. The baseline is not empathy. Nobody in the Imperium is “nice.” What I’m saying is that Sisters should not be misinterpreted as less empathetic with the common people of the Imperium than Space Marines, since that was the initial claim. This isn’t even close to being arguable. The Adeptus Astartes chapters overall have roughly no contact with mortals. For one thing, it is very much beneath them, from their own point of view as a general matter. For another, relative to the vast population of the Imperium, there are almost no Space Marines. By contrast, many orders of magnitude more Imperial subjects will at the very least have seen some member of Adepta Sororitas than Adeptus Astartes, not least of all because the Sisters have a duty to minister to the faithful. To actually be around them and be with them. Nothing about the way of life led by Space Marines necessitates any contact with, concern for, or obligation to the average Imperial subject. But the exact opposite is true of Adepta Sororitas. Objecting that Sisters are fanatical is irrelevant considering that so are faithful subjects of the Imperium. These two groups share the same faith. Faith in the Imperial cult is a fundamental aspect of Imperial society — something that not only do Space Marines not share but also is a source of contempt for the common people among Space Marines.
One fact that I think is worth repeating is that one has to consider that any discussion of 40K lore hits a major barrier - size. The Imperium is VAST. It's honestly beyond our comprehension to really appreciate its scale and size.
As a result within the Imperium there is extreme diversity. You have manufacture worlds where the air and water are toxic, where most people live in squalor slaving to work mundane tasks at manufacture and production; through to huge nations of people who spend each day in tedium administrating worlds. Ontop of that you've got worlds that aren't that bad all told; it still has the very strong feudal system, but the serfs don't live "that bad" and the air is nice and the water clean. There's huge green worlds where its nothing but healthy farm living. Trading worlds; production; religious; hell; death; divine.
This is before we even touch on time. Even within the millennium there are hundreds of years and the Imperium stretches out over many thousands.
So any discussion of factions can hit a wall in that in one story they might be more benign than in others. The Sisters might be shown to be uncaring in one story and caring in another toward the civilians. Neither story outright retcons the other. Different chapters; different situations; different experiences; different periods in time and political and military pressures.
There are themes and overall generalities that spread through the setting that allow a sense of unity; but at the specifics things do change around. Also a lot of the popular lore often focuses around certain types of setting - we are far more likely to get stories and snippets from hive worlds and manufacture worlds than peaceful farming or feral worlds.
Even taking into account the great variety of the Imperium, it remains true that Sisters live and work just about wherever the faith can be found. They have the vocation to minister to the faithful and the training and experience to live it out, whether on the pleasant agriworlds or the pollution shocked hive worlds.
Melissia wrote: And yet the fluff specifically and repeatedly compares the two as equals.
Can you provide a source?
Most Sisters of Battle codices state it, starting with the third edition one.
You can say "that's just propaganda", but that's the nature of 40k lore so the objection would be pointless.
I've not argued here that Marines aren't physically superior with their massive generic enhancements, but oddly enough said genetic enhancements don't actually do much for their skill. Most of them just help with raw power and survivability.
Secondary heart: Survivability.
Ossmodula: Survivability
Biscopea: More muscles.
Haemastamen: Survivability
Larraman's Organ: Survivability
Catalepsean Node: Survivability
Preomnor: Survivability
Omophagea: An oddball one, allows them to gain basic intel by eating brains.
Multi-lung: Survivability
Occulobe: Low-light vision, better sight (Sisters get a similar boost through their helmets)
Lyman's Ear: Better hearing (Sisters get a similar boost through their helmets)
Sus-An Membrane: Survivability
Oolitic Kidney: Survivability
Neuroglotis: Superior sense of taste
Mucranoid: Survivability
Betcher's Gland: Acid/poison spit
Progeniods: Reproductive gland
Black Carapace: Neural link to power armor (Sisters have been retconned in to using cybernetics to have a similar effect, see the cyber-plugs on Repentia)
Of these, the only two that make the Marine have better reactions are the Occulobe and Lyman's Ear, however, it's noted since third edition that the Sororitas power armor helmet, particularly the Sabbat-pattern one worn by veterans, does a similar job (and there is no lore that indicates which one is actually better, but certainly a Space Marine out of power armor maintains their advantage in this regard where a Sister needs their power armor to keep up). A Space Marine is certainly stronger and certainly more durable than a Sororitas, but the skill a Space Marine has is not merely given to them, it's trained up over time. And the same is said of a Sister of Battle, thus why only veteran Sisters can match Space Marines in terms of skill.
Its not neccesarily reactions, but reflexes. People usually have split second delays with reaction reflexes, Marines have mostly physical enhancments, and I can totaly see how some of them would let their bodies move instantaneously with their minds, especially when you include all their training. They would be faster to react due to reflex, and would be faster at finishing said reflex.
Imagine dropping a glass of water. You think the marine wouldnt react to it quicker? They totally would. Even if they dont, when they do react, they will still shoot their arm to grab the cup and put back on the table or whatever much faster than you or I could.
Besides, the Geneseed is kind of ambigious in what it really does. My headcannon is that all mental enchancments are done gradially, from when the Geneseed is insterted to whenever it is fully developed, and Im pretty sure Geneseeds are developed fully by the time the marine becomes a battle brother, if not a scout.
But since 6's always save, and 6's always wound, a sister with enough 6's in the Miracle Dice pool can kill anything one on one, not just marines.
Marines may have better training and transhuman physiology and all that tripe, but miracles come from the Emperor himself and only Sisters get them.
Fluff is great, but where it contradicts rules, it is incorrect. If the game was based on the fiction, it would be a different story, but in GW's case, the fiction is based on the game.
That is the exact opposite of how things work.
So how do you manage the wild inconsistency? Are Eldar faster walkers than guardsmen or the same speed? How do they decide whose turn it is to fight in a planetary scale? The idea that game mechanics override fluff is ridiculous.
I never thought Id ever, EVER see somebody say that rules are more valid than fluff. You showed three examples of why and Im interested to see what the response is
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Sisters are more likely to behave more like Black Templars, Marines Malevolent and Iron Hands, from my understanding.
From my readings of their novels, most Sisters of Battle Orders behave like Salamanders and Ultramarine more often than Black Templars or Iron Hands. Of course, it varies depending on the Order. The SIlver Shrouds are very much like Salamanders while the Bloody Rose, no surprise, behave more like Blood Angels.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I'd trust Salamanders, Blood Angels, Ultramarines and Space Wolves any day to entrust civilian lives than to Sisters. Sisters are more likely to behave more like Black Templars, Marines Malevolent and Iron Hands, from my understanding.
Of the primary orders Martyred Lady and Bloody Rose are vengeful like the templars, Valorous Heart and Argent Shroud are more stoic, Ebon Chalice are obstinate and judgemental, and Sacred Rose are comparatively measured.
In terms of Marines Malevolent style behaviour - during the 3rd war for armaggedon the sisters of the Argent Shroud witnessed another 'friendly fire' incident this time by the Flesh Tearers against militia forces - their opinion was that the Flesh Tearers should be exterminated for their actions. As for the Iron Hands, much of the sisters work involves protecting civilian positions and pilgrimage routes which is the complete opposite of the Iron Hands 'protect yourself or die' attitude towards civilians.
Mistresspaige wrote: Hi guys forgive my ignorance on the lore but I’ve looked up Sisters of battle and from my understanding they’re supposed to be the equivalent of female space marines correct? Curious how do they compare? Are they biologically enhanced like the space marines are? Do they have power armour? How do they work exactly?
In a word, no. The orders militant of the Adepta Sororitas are among the Imperium's elites. But they are not on par with the Adeptus Astartes pound for pound. The Space Marines are the cream of the crop, so to speak.
oldravenman3025 wrote: But they are not on par with the Adeptus Astartes pound for pound. The Space Marines are the cream of the crop, so to speak.
Actually, if you want to count "pound for pound" a Sister of Battle is probably much superior to a Space Marine. I think the average Space Marines is around 500 kilos in armor. An avergae Sister is probably 150 kilos in armor and a Space Marine is pretty much worth 2 or maybe three Sister at most in terms of raw effectiveness. Thus, pound for pound, Sisters are much better. In fact, pound for pound, Guards are probably better than Marines. Though you are completely correct and I'm just being very pedantic just for fun.
Depends on what you’re using them for. For boarding actions or surgical strikes, Space Marines are the superior choice. For a protracted conflict in a massive scale, Guard are best. To defend a holy site against demons or cleanse a chaos cult, or inspire the guard against similar enemies, the Sisters are best.
epronovost wrote: I think the average Space Marines is around 500 kilos in armor. An avergae Sister is probably 150 kilos in armor
To take the pedantry a bit further, both these figures seem far too low.
I'd expect a SM to weigh somewhere in the region of 500kg naked, and his power armour to be much heavier (it's noted in multiple stories that SMs find it difficult to move in unpowered power armour). The heaviest man to have lived (as far as we know) was 635kg, and his weight was mostly fat (which is much less dense than muscle), he was only 6'1" tall (compared to 7'+ for a SM) and he didn't have super-dense bones and a solid ribcage.
Taking female professional wrestlers, boxers and MMAs as a guide, 70kg seems a decent average for a naked SoB. Sororitas power armour is noted as being more lightweight than the Astartes version, and it is obviously much less bulky, but even so 80kg seems far too light. Like SM, Sisters who lose power to their armour find it very difficult and exhausting to move in it. That suggests to me it must weigh 200kg or so at least.
epronovost wrote: I think the average Space Marines is around 500 kilos in armor. An avergae Sister is probably 150 kilos in armor
To take the pedantry a bit further, both these figures seem far too low.
I'd expect a SM to weigh somewhere in the region of 500kg naked, and his power armour to be much heavier (it's noted in multiple stories that SMs find it difficult to move in unpowered power armour). The heaviest man to have lived (as far as we know) was 635kg, and his weight was mostly fat (which is much less dense than muscle), he was only 6'1" tall (compared to 7'+ for a SM) and he didn't have super-dense bones and a solid ribcage.
Taking female professional wrestlers, boxers and MMAs as a guide, 70kg seems a decent average for a naked SoB. Sororitas power armour is noted as being more lightweight than the Astartes version, and it is obviously much less bulky, but even so 80kg seems far too light. Like SM, Sisters who lose power to their armour find it very difficult and exhausting to move in it. That suggests to me it must weigh 200kg or so at least.
Hafþór Björnsson "The Mountain" is 6'9" and weighs ~180 kg. Space Marines are 7' tall and a bit broader, so normal human density wouldn't get them anywhere close to 500 kg. The kicker is the fact that their bones are actually more dense. However, even pumping the size of The Mountain a bit to be taller and broader, upwards of 250 kg would seem unlikely at human density. Add a bit for extra bone density, sure, but doubling to 500 kg? I wouldn't think so. I'd think 300-350ish.
There's also some issues around being too heavy with all your gear, you're gonna start falling through floors. And how many tons of marine can a Rhino carry? It should be faster without it's cargo
Duskweaver wrote: I'd expect a SM to weigh somewhere in the region of 500kg naked
Wat?
Seems a lot!
Duskweaver wrote: Sororitas power armour is noted as being more lightweight than the Astartes version, and it is obviously much less bulky, but even so 80kg seems far too light. Like SM, Sisters who lose power to their armour find it very difficult and exhausting to move in it.
It seems exhausting to walk around with more than your own weight on yourself, especially when you have to push the servos yourself to make the armor move rather than just carry it.
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A.T. wrote: That suggests to me it must weigh 200kg or so at least.
The FFG books puts power armour at 180kg for marines, 35kg for sisters
Woah Ecclesiarchal wargear is so much superior to Astartes wargear, impressive!
Mistresspaige wrote: Hi guys forgive my ignorance on the lore but I’ve looked up Sisters of battle and from my understanding they’re supposed to be the equivalent of female space marines correct? Curious how do they compare? Are they biologically enhanced like the space marines are? Do they have power armour? How do they work exactly?
The Sisters of Battle have the same equipment as Space Marines.
They are also near-on-par with Space Marines in training, but are not genetically engineered. They'll get you far enough mechanically, for all intents are purposes. Some of the Sisters units are also canonically used to hunt rogue space marines, and supposedly very successfully.
That said, I wouldn't call them the female equivalent of Space Marines. They're TO&E is pretty much identical, and they're elite units, but they're role and character are very different. Even the orders militant do way more suppression and show-the-flag operations to keep the populace in check, and their purpose for existing is to give the church and ordo hereticus a very well equipped and trained good squad of enforcers to get their way.
The Space Marines are elite self-contained expeditionary and rapid-response task forces.
The Sisters of Battle are elite political troops and enforcers for the church.
Insectum7 wrote: And how many tons of marine can a Rhino carry? It should be faster without it's cargo
Thats not really how torque works.
Pretty sure you can slow a vehicle down by adding weight to it. Mass being a part of those equations.
Only if it's a low torque engine. A high torque one may slow a bit but won't really. I'd suspect a machine designed to carry said weight will be very torque-y.
Lookit the M1 Abrams. Powered by a Honeywell AGT1500 with ~4000 ft/lbs of torque. The M1A had a cross country speed of 48kph while weighing 57t. The M1A2 weighs in at 66t, 10 tons more, but can still do 40kph. Slower while heavier yes, but the lighter one is not a drag racer by any stretch of the imagination.
An empty Rhino won't be much faster than a full one.
Insectum7 wrote: And how many tons of marine can a Rhino carry? It should be faster without it's cargo
Thats not really how torque works.
Pretty sure you can slow a vehicle down by adding weight to it. Mass being a part of those equations.
Only if it's a low torque engine. A high torque one may slow a bit but won't really. I'd suspect a machine designed to carry said weight will be very torque-y.
Lookit the M1 Abrams. Powered by a Honeywell AGT1500 with ~4000 ft/lbs of torque. The M1A had a cross country speed of 48kph while weighing 57t. The M1A2 weighs in at 66t, 10 tons more, but can still do 40kph. Slower while heavier yes, but the lighter one is not a drag racer by any stretch of the imagination.
An empty Rhino won't be much faster than a full one.
Also, a Rhino's weight is mostly in the Rhino, not the Marines onboard. And, of course, unless it's engine governors are removed they are keeping it's speed back in both cases.
Insectum7 wrote: And how many tons of marine can a Rhino carry? It should be faster without it's cargo
Thats not really how torque works.
Pretty sure you can slow a vehicle down by adding weight to it. Mass being a part of those equations.
Only if it's a low torque engine. A high torque one may slow a bit but won't really. I'd suspect a machine designed to carry said weight will be very torque-y.
Lookit the M1 Abrams. Powered by a Honeywell AGT1500 with ~4000 ft/lbs of torque. The M1A had a cross country speed of 48kph while weighing 57t. The M1A2 weighs in at 66t, 10 tons more, but can still do 40kph. Slower while heavier yes, but the lighter one is not a drag racer by any stretch of the imagination.
An empty Rhino won't be much faster than a full one.
You just made my point, man. A 20% increase in speed is a 20% increase in speed.
Not sure we know how heavy a Rhino is. I think the quoted weights are generally not great to begin with. Iirc the Land Raider is supposed to be 70 something. But some of the numbers in the thread seem nuts. 500kg marine plus near 200kg for armor, add some more for kit and you have a full squad weighing 7-8 tons. If a Rhino is 30 tons that's a 25% increase in weight when a squad mounts up, which looks like a significant decrease in speed by your Abrams example.
An M113 (Rhino for rl people) is 13ish tons, for reference.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:The Space Marines are elite self-contained expeditionary and rapid-response task forces.
The Sisters of Battle are elite political troops and enforcers for the church.
Insectum7 wrote: a Rhino is 30 tons that's a 25% increase in weight when a squad mounts up, which looks like a significant decrease in speed by your Abrams example.
An M113 (Rhino for rl people) is 13ish tons, for reference.
A 20% increase from 40khp to 48kph isn't very much.
Even a Bugatti Vayeron on 400kph a 20% increase isn't blisteringly faster. You can get a better increase by painting it red.
Insectum7 wrote: a Rhino is 30 tons that's a 25% increase in weight when a squad mounts up, which looks like a significant decrease in speed by your Abrams example.
An M113 (Rhino for rl people) is 13ish tons, for reference.
A 20% increase from 40khp to 48kph isn't very much.
Even a Bugatti Vayeron on 400kph a 20% increase isn't blisteringly faster. You can get a better increase by painting it red.
If that's an Ork joke the last I recall Red Paint Job added an extra inch to a 12" move, for a mere 8ish %.
Insectum7 wrote: a Rhino is 30 tons that's a 25% increase in weight when a squad mounts up, which looks like a significant decrease in speed by your Abrams example.
An M113 (Rhino for rl people) is 13ish tons, for reference.
A 20% increase from 40khp to 48kph isn't very much.
Even a Bugatti Vayeron on 400kph a 20% increase isn't blisteringly faster. You can get a better increase by painting it red.
If that's an Ork joke the last I recall Red Paint Job added an extra inch to a 12" move, for a mere 8ish %.
Can someone settle a debate for me? SoS are to SoB what Custodes are to Astartes. That was my understanding but I seem to be wrong. Obviously we have to go to the wildly inaccurate fluff on this, but if the SoB are supposed to be the best of human training and genetics, then the SoB have to be a step higher right? They do things that even the Cannonesses can't do. Aleya takes down hordes of daemon invasions with just her flamer in Watchers of the Throne. In the SoB books cannonesses and entire companies of sisters get taken to town by a single daemon invasion. I understand this is arguing who's better Krillin or Ten Shin Han, but the lore is pretty clear, the SoS are the pinacle of base human females. The pincale of male base humans have to be Catachans.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can someone settle a debate for me? SoS are to SoB what Custodes are to Astartes. That was my understanding but I seem to be wrong. Obviously we have to go to the wildly inaccurate fluff on this, but if the SoB are supposed to be the best of human training and genetics, then the SoB have to be a step higher right?
Sisters of Silence are pariahs - psychic nulls, that is all that matters as far as there genetics go. They are anathema to daemons and psykers but a regular power armoured sister would likely kick the stuffing out of them (SoS have very high quality carapace style armour, not powered armour, and are highly specialised).
Sisters are selected from the top candidates of the schola progenium, before the administratum, guard, etc get their pick (because it is an Ecclesiarchy run organisation), and then they are trained based on the sisterhoods traditions. Strictly speaking they are not better in that sense than the candidates taken for the tempestus (who do get enhancements and more focussed training/brainwashing, and are not eliminated from contention due to gender or less than absolute faith).
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can someone settle a debate for me? SoS are to SoB what Custodes are to Astartes. That was my understanding but I seem to be wrong. Obviously we have to go to the wildly inaccurate fluff on this, but if the SoB are supposed to be the best of human training and genetics, then the SoB have to be a step higher right? They do things that even the Cannonesses can't do. Aleya takes down hordes of daemon invasions with just her flamer in Watchers of the Throne. In the SoB books cannonesses and entire companies of sisters get taken to town by a single daemon invasion. I understand this is arguing who's better Krillin or Ten Shin Han, but the lore is pretty clear, the SoS are the pinacle of base human females. The pincale of male base humans have to be Catachans.
First of all, they are unrelated organizations that both just happen to have the word “sister” in their names.
Second, the SOS are all blanks, pariahs, anti-psykers, whatever you want to call it. I don’t know if the latest fluff gives them any more spice, but their inherent powers already make them formidable against daemons.
Third, the SoS were founded by the Emperor, and have the kind of institutional support you’d expect from that backing. So yeah, at least their gear would fit your metric of SoS:SoB::Custodes:Astartes.
Fourth, Krillin is better than Tian Shin Han. How is that even a debate?
So from several of the (Admittedly terrible books) lore bits, in Cadian Honour is has a troop of extremely well trained and equipped Sisters of the Rose (?) getting taken down by a horde of basicly starving peasants. Granted they gave a good fight, but no Astartes force would ever lose in a pitched battle against a rabble of drugged up cultists with knives and lasguns.
How is krillian/TSH a debate? Look at the thread topic man. Are SoB equal to Astartes? That's how it's a debate. Who would win in an arm wrestling contest, Gaz or a malnurished guardsman with no arms?
There are silly questions, but this thread takes the cake. Also, 4 SoS took down a squad of enraged Minotaur Primaris. They aren't just pariahs. They are easily the best trained female human warriors in the galaxy. No armor, just weapons, a SoS would not even break a sweat wiping the floor with a SoB. It's that far.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Granted they gave a good fight, but no Astartes force would ever lose in a pitched battle against a rabble of drugged up cultists with knives and lasguns.
Someone loved to quote a story where they did around here.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So from several of the (Admittedly terrible books) lore bits, in Cadian Honour is has a troop of extremely well trained and equipped Sisters of the Rose (?) getting taken down by a horde of basicly starving peasants. Granted they gave a good fight, but no Astartes force would ever lose in a pitched battle against a rabble of drugged up cultists with knives and lasguns.
I hate to have to do this, but:
Picture it, 2005. Ben Counter writes the definitive book on Grey Knights, the most elite space marines there ever were and would ever be, so far as we know. Real badasses. Every one of them worth a score of normal space marines.
Ben’s written himself into a corner. The Grey Knights are on a primitive feudal world, and there needs to be an action scene. Well, it’ll be a slaughter. But that’s boring. How does Ben add some stakes to this fight? Simple. A rabble or spear wielding peasants can now kill a Grey Knight Terminator...with spears. No, no, not magic spears or power spears. Just crap spears.
And there you have it. The best space marines of the best chapter are just as pathetic as Sisters or Battle.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can someone settle a debate for me? SoS are to SoB what Custodes are to Astartes. That was my understanding but I seem to be wrong. Obviously we have to go to the wildly inaccurate fluff on this, but if the SoB are supposed to be the best of human training and genetics, then the SoB have to be a step higher right?
Sisters of Silence are pariahs - psychic nulls, that is all that matters as far as there genetics go. They are anathema to daemons and psykers but a regular power armoured sister would likely kick the stuffing out of them (SoS have very high quality carapace style armour, not powered armour, and are highly specialised).
Sisters are selected from the top candidates of the schola progenium, before the administratum, guard, etc get their pick (because it is an Ecclesiarchy run organisation), and then they are trained based on the sisterhoods traditions. Strictly speaking they are not better in that sense than the candidates taken for the tempestus (who do get enhancements and more focussed training/brainwashing, and are not eliminated from contention due to gender or less than absolute faith).
Not quite. A few things. Unless they’ve updated lore on the Schola Progenium with the new sister’s codex to contradict the Militarum Tempestus codex, female Progena that show both fine military skills and physical aptitude, as well as strong faith are sent off the the Adepta Sororitas convents. However, “the most talented warriors are chosen for the Militarum Tempestus and Officio Prefectus.” Scions don’t get “physical” enhancements beyond grueling training and they are psychologically girded and indoctrinated to persevere against fear of mortality and to fulfill missions.
Vratine Armor worn by the Sisters of Silence is a “powered armor,” however—its not environmentally sealed by default and it’s made for shorter operations, unlike Astartes and Sororitas power armor. It’s more similar to Ignatus in utility than something made for long campaigns.
In the only story that I know in which Sisters of Battle and Tempestus Scions do engage in battle together (‘Tempestus’) they do appear quite comprable in skill.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So from several of the (Admittedly terrible books) lore bits, in Cadian Honour is has a troop of extremely well trained and equipped Sisters of the Rose (?) getting taken down by a horde of basicly starving peasants. Granted they gave a good fight, but no Astartes force would ever lose in a pitched battle against a rabble of drugged up cultists with knives and lasguns.
How is krillian/TSH a debate? Look at the thread topic man. Are SoB equal to Astartes? That's how it's a debate. Who would win in an arm wrestling contest, Gaz or a malnurished guardsman with no arms?
There are silly questions, but this thread takes the cake. Also, 4 SoS took down a squad of enraged Minotaur Primaris. They aren't just pariahs. They are easily the best trained female human warriors in the galaxy. No armor, just weapons, a SoS would not even break a sweat wiping the floor with a SoB. It's that far.
There's also a short story where a squad of sisters purge a labyrinth of GSC with a lone Space Wolf they meet on the way who's entire squad was killed in their attempt. Writers are going to write battles that fit the narrative they are building, not answer lore questions.
Sisters are one of the few factions that have gone toe to toe with Adeptus Custodes to the point of conversation, and while that was living saint level of effort. The rank and file were effective enough against Space Marines and allies to tie things up enough for big E to get involved personally.
The SoB did not go "toe to toe" with the Custodes, that is at best a terrible reading of the text. The Custodes were slaughtering the Sisters, and they decided to end it and show what's her name to the emperor. The SoB do not compare to the Custodes in any respect. Fluff or table top. I assume you are referring to the Reign of Blood, in which the sisters were backed up by full military battalions, and the officio assasinorium.
While we are on the topic, Those are likely the pinacle of base human evolution. The assassins. They routinely take down major targets, without power armor, faith, or excluding the pariah one, unholy warp stuff. Just pure insane skill.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The SoB did not go "toe to toe" with the Custodes, that is at best a terrible reading of the text. The Custodes were slaughtering the Sisters, and they decided to end it and show what's her name to the emperor. The SoB do not compare to the Custodes in any respect. Fluff or table top. I assume you are referring to the Reign of Blood, in which the sisters were backed up by full military battalions, and the officio assasinorium.
While we are on the topic, Those are likely the pinacle of base human evolution. The assassins. They routinely take down major targets, without power armor, faith, or excluding the pariah one, unholy warp stuff. Just pure insane skill.
It does make you sit back and think a bit. If the Space Marines are heralded as the ultimate specimens of Humanity, and then you have the Assassins which can handle marines routinely...
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The SoB did not go "toe to toe" with the Custodes, that is at best a terrible reading of the text. The Custodes were slaughtering the Sisters, and they decided to end it and show what's her name to the emperor.
Wat?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I assume you are referring to the Reign of Blood, in which the sisters were backed up by full military battalions, and the officio assasinorium.
WAT?
Where do you get all that info that contradicts everything I ever read about Vandire's demise? I've never read about any fighting between Brides of the Emperor (that was their name back then) and Custodes, and I have never read about the Brides being backed by assassins, during the siege of Terra.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: While we are on the topic, Those are likely the pinacle of base human evolution. The assassins. They routinely take down major targets, without power armor, faith, or excluding the pariah one, unholy warp stuff. Just pure insane skill.
The Eversor are so much pumped up with combat drugs and stuff that they literally explode when killed. It's part of the reason why they are kept in stasis between deployment, their metabolism is unsustainable. The Callidus can morph into looking like an Ork. The Culexus is an extremely powerful blank. None of those are "unaugmented humans running on pure skill". They all have skills AND augmentation. The Officio Assassinorum have 0 qualms about augmentation if that makes their agent more effective, so I really bet the Vindicare get the same kind of treatment.
The Officio Assassinorum have extensive physical, genetic, and psychological alterations. They are hardly ‘human’ in the conventional sense. Sorta like the Astartes are transhuman.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The SoB did not go "toe to toe" with the Custodes, that is at best a terrible reading of the text. The Custodes were slaughtering the Sisters, and they decided to end it and show what's her name to the emperor
The custodes and sisters didn't fire a single shot at one another. In fact it is explicitly stated that when the Custodes did intervene their leader put down his weapons, spoke peacefully with the sisters for an hour and then left his own men as hostages before personally guided Dominica and five others (later founders of the various orders) to the Emperor.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I assume you are referring to the Reign of Blood, in which the sisters were backed up by full military battalions, and the officio assasinorium.
The sisters fought the space marine, tech guard, and the rest of Thors forces. The sisters lost 60% of their number holding the fortress, the attackers losses were unspecified.
The frateris templars may or may not have been involved in Vandires defense - they were never mentioned as present in the battle (the sisters were his personal guard after all).
While Vandire did use assassins (via his position as a High Lord) to gain power, none were mentioned present at the siege.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So from several of the (Admittedly terrible books) lore bits, in Cadian Honour is has a troop of extremely well trained and equipped Sisters of the Rose (?) getting taken down by a horde of basicly starving peasants. Granted they gave a good fight, but no Astartes force would ever lose in a pitched battle against a rabble of drugged up cultists with knives and lasguns
Alaric checked the runes projected by his autosenses back onto his retina. Dvorn's rune was flickering, he must be injured. "Any men lost?" Alaric voxed.
"Caanos is dead," said Santoro simply. "Mykros is carrying him."
- The Grey Knights Omnibus, pg. 110 Killed not by peasants with laser guns, but by medieval warriors with swords and spears.
Not to suggest that some authors have ... interesting interpretations of the lore at times. Backflipping terminators, multilaser tactical marines, razorback surfing, falcon surfing, SoS beating on primaris, that time the tau conquered a hive city with a tiny force using the cunning tactic of 'sit get shelled until the enemy tires', that time the sisters homeworld was conquered by a daemon, the primarch Rubinek and the Iron Hearts...
Apple Peel wrote: Scions don’t get “physical” enhancements beyond grueling training / Vratine Armor worn by the Sisters of Silence is a “powered armor,”
I think there is a degree of retcon going on with the newer lore. The sisters didn't used to have power armour until GW gave them a 3+, and IG stormtroopers have had chemical enhancements mentioned in the past but scions are the new non-stormtrooper stormtroopers.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The SoB did not go "toe to toe" with the Custodes, that is at best a terrible reading of the text. The Custodes were slaughtering the Sisters, and they decided to end it and show what's her name to the emperor. The SoB do not compare to the Custodes in any respect. Fluff or table top. I assume you are referring to the Reign of Blood, in which the sisters were backed up by full military battalions, and the officio assasinorium.
While we are on the topic, Those are likely the pinacle of base human evolution. The assassins. They routinely take down major targets, without power armor, faith, or excluding the pariah one, unholy warp stuff. Just pure insane skill.
Custodes didn't kill any sisters, they bypassed all but six of them, because Holy Terra is theirs.
It was the Confederacy of Light with the troop battalions, Navy starships, Space Marine chapters, Mechanicus and I seem to recall Officio Assasinorium on one side. A whole galaxy's worth of support against an army of Sisters and surviving milita that wasn't lost to the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The SoB did not go "toe to toe" with the Custodes, that is at best a terrible reading of the text. The Custodes were slaughtering the Sisters, and they decided to end it and show what's her name to the emperor
The custodes and sisters didn't fire a single shot at one another. In fact it is explicitly stated that when the Custodes did intervene their leader put down his weapons, spoke peacefully with the sisters for an hour and then left his own men as hostages before personally guided Dominica and five others (later founders of the various orders) to the Emperor.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I assume you are referring to the Reign of Blood, in which the sisters were backed up by full military battalions, and the officio assasinorium.
The sisters fought the space marine, tech guard, and the rest of Thors forces. The sisters lost 60% of their number holding the fortress, the attackers losses were unspecified.
The frateris templars may or may not have been involved in Vandires defense - they were never mentioned as present in the battle (the sisters were his personal guard after all).
While Vandire did use assassins (via his position as a High Lord) to gain power, none were mentioned present at the siege.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So from several of the (Admittedly terrible books) lore bits, in Cadian Honour is has a troop of extremely well trained and equipped Sisters of the Rose (?) getting taken down by a horde of basicly starving peasants. Granted they gave a good fight, but no Astartes force would ever lose in a pitched battle against a rabble of drugged up cultists with knives and lasguns
Alaric checked the runes projected by his autosenses back onto his retina. Dvorn's rune was flickering, he must be injured. "Any men lost?" Alaric voxed.
"Caanos is dead," said Santoro simply. "Mykros is carrying him."
- The Grey Knights Omnibus, pg. 110 Killed not by peasants with laser guns, but by medieval warriors with swords and spears.
Not to suggest that some authors have ... interesting interpretations of the lore at times. Backflipping terminators, multilaser tactical marines, razorback surfing, falcon surfing, SoS beating on primaris, that time the tau conquered a hive city with a tiny force using the cunning tactic of 'sit get shelled until the enemy tires', that time the sisters homeworld was conquered by a daemon, the primarch Rubinek and the Iron Hearts...
Apple Peel wrote: Scions don’t get “physical” enhancements beyond grueling training / Vratine Armor worn by the Sisters of Silence is a “powered armor,”
I think there is a degree of retcon going on with the newer lore. The sisters didn't used to have power armour until GW gave them a 3+, and IG stormtroopers have had chemical enhancements mentioned in the past but scions are the new non-stormtrooper stormtroopers.
Scions are the most stormtroopers-stormtroopers thing since the Inquisitorial stormtroopers. Back when there was actual 40K stormtroopers and not fluffed-up regimental OC donut-steels like Kasrkin. Scions take all the original stormtrooper lore from pre-Kasrkin stormtroopers, expand it, and they only changed regiment sizes. They brought back being an outside organization that is disliked by the regular guard.
Lammia wrote: It was the Confederacy of Light with the troop battalions, Navy starships, Space Marine chapters, Mechanicus and I seem to recall Officio Assasinorium on one side. A whole galaxy's worth of support against an army of Sisters and surviving milita that wasn't lost to the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.
Elements of the Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks, Soul Drinkers, and Black Templars chapter that were local to segmentum solar at that time, and an unspecified number of regiments of the Martian Tech-Guard (who were basically there to shell the place).
Thor and the Confederacy of Light were explicitly not at the siege as per the 2nd ed book, though the original fluff has been condensed and re-printed so many times that the few paragraphs that remain in the 8e book read quite differently. The sisters forces were stated to be roughly 10000 warriors.
Lammia wrote: It was the Confederacy of Light with the troop battalions, Navy starships, Space Marine chapters, Mechanicus and I seem to recall Officio Assasinorium on one side. A whole galaxy's worth of support against an army of Sisters and surviving milita that wasn't lost to the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.
Elements of the Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks, Soul Drinkers, and Black Templars chapter that were local to segmentum solar at that time, and an unspecified number of regiments of the Martian Tech-Guard (who were basically there to shell the place).
Thor and the Confederacy of Light were explicitly not at the siege as per the 2nd ed book, though the original fluff has been condensed and re-printed so many times that the few paragraphs that remain in the 8e book read quite differently. The sisters forces were stated to be roughly 10000 warriors.
It's been different since 3rd/4th edition in term of who had the numbers...
Lammia wrote: It's been different since 3rd/4th edition in term of who had the numbers...
The nine pages that cover the age of apostasy in the 2nd ed book are condensed to half a page of writing in the 3e book - so it jumps from Thor gathering his forces to the assault on Terra and the jumps again to Thor becoming Ecclesiarch.
In the original longer version Thor gathers his forces, then you get Vandire dissolving the High Lords and ordering attacks on the astartes and Mechanicus which leads to the assault on Terra, Vandire falls, and then the reformation and trial of Thor before he becomes Ecclesiarch (which starts with him refusing to come to Terra until compelled).
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So from several of the (Admittedly terrible books) lore bits, in Cadian Honour is has a troop of extremely well trained and equipped Sisters of the Rose (?) getting taken down by a horde of basicly starving peasants. Granted they gave a good fight, but no Astartes force would ever lose in a pitched battle against a rabble of drugged up cultists with knives and lasguns.
How is krillian/TSH a debate? Look at the thread topic man. Are SoB equal to Astartes? That's how it's a debate. Who would win in an arm wrestling contest, Gaz or a malnurished guardsman with no arms?
There are silly questions, but this thread takes the cake. Also, 4 SoS took down a squad of enraged Minotaur Primaris. They aren't just pariahs. They are easily the best trained female human warriors in the galaxy. No armor, just weapons, a SoS would not even break a sweat wiping the floor with a SoB. It's that far.
Again, some author somewhere who has nothing to do with the game might have written a book where something like this happens, but it's really meaningless.
SoS squash psykers. SoB are not psykers. Against us, SoS have bolters, swords and flamers, because against us, their pariah gene does exactly nothing.
SoB on the other hand, have a very easy way to get to a place where 1/ They can't fail a save 2/ They can't fail to hit and 3/ They can't fail to wound.
And I really don't care what Black Library says- this is not up for debate. A battle sister will break an SoS every time- especially one with a meltagun, which SoS don't use. Novels are not a reliable source of who is tougher than whom. Novelists don't all play the game, and even if they did, they'll always sacrifice what would happen in the game for the sake of their story.
I like reading this thread, and I try to post to it very rarely because I know that some people just don't get how rules are supposed to govern novels since the rules were written first. I hope to one day write for BL, and when that day comes, nothing will happen in any of my books that wouldn't happen on the table. The day you see me describe a marine as walking faster than a sister is the day GW changes movement stats, because until that day, it is absolutely a load of crap that marines walk faster. They don't.
Similar, it is a load of crap that an SoS has anything on SoB. We have more gear; we have equally protective armour; we are just as strong and just as tough; SoS special abilities do not effect us in any meaningful way, but our special abilities, by augmenting us do affect SoS quite profoundly. A novelist who writes otherwise is a) ignorant b) lying or c) doing so from the prospective of an unreliable narrator.
Now if you want to determine relative strengths of SoS and SoB vs. Thousand Sons or any other highly psychic enemy, then yes, by that measure, the SoS have got us cold; our Shield of Faith gives us more defense against psychic powers than space marines get, but we're nothing compared to SoS in this game.
Fluff is valid when it supports rules. When it does not, rules give you a clearer picture of what the people who actually created and own the intellectual property believe to be true of the universe they created, and quite frankly, theirs is the only opinion that actually matters. It would be different if this game universe had been based on a book or a movie- in that case, the fluff guys would be the creators and owners of they intellectual property. But 40k was not based on books or movies. Movies and books are based on 40k.
(Parts of this post probably sounded hostile or condescending- genuine apology for that; but discrepancies between novels, movies and the actual game is a HUGE pet peeve, so please believe me when I say it's not personal)
I actually was basing it off the fact that Custodes view anyone not a custodes as lesser than a bother. A petulant child that needs codling. They deign to fight along side the IF because they were ordered to by Trajaan. But it's clear from the books that Trajaan, the Custodes, and even Robbie G see the SoS as one of if not these most potent weapons of the emperor. Never has that claim been leveled against the SoB. Custodes also view the SoS as the only fighting force that they are willing to share their time with.
As for fluff doesn't matter, we are clearly just discussing fluff. It's crazy to say fluff doesn't matter in a debate as to "Are sisters the equal of Space Marines".
Lastly, why do you keep using We in reference to the sisters? I totally understand if this is a gender neutral term, but then still, we implies that you believe you are a Sister of Battle.
stats wise SOS and SOB are so similer that honestly I'd expect them to be more or less equal if they went toe to toe, individiaul skill would be the detirminer
(Parts of this post probably sounded hostile or condescending- genuine apology for that; but discrepancies between novels, movies and the actual game is a HUGE pet peeve, so please believe me when I say it's not personal)
Your irrational pet peeves are no concern of anyone's.
Fluff is more important than rules when discussing the setting and the people in it because rules much more readily change for reasons that have nothing to do with the setting or characters inside.
Initiative being removed from the game mechanics doesn't suddenly mean Sisters of Battle, Space Marines, Eldar, Ogryn, Necrons, and Great Unclean Ones are all just as quick, it was done because GW believed it would be better for the game state.
(Parts of this post probably sounded hostile or condescending- genuine apology for that; but discrepancies between novels, movies and the actual game is a HUGE pet peeve, so please believe me when I say it's not personal)
The rules are descriptive not prescriptive.
Any book that reads like a tabletop game is going to be short, mostly boring and won't be able to have real protagonists. Notice how in most books the main characters have plot armour superior to any real armour? Even in books where main characters die you still need some people to survive things they can't realistically otherwise they'd be background characters.
Then there is everything that happens not on the tabletop that you will need to use to... for want of a better word, fluff out your story. No one eats on the table top. No one has a conversation with comrades. No one has any back story. No one has any character arc.
There has been *plenty* written about Marines moving faster than humans and its been in the rules, not only with Initiative but also in number of attacks and a few other ways. If you disregard that you will be making up your own lore.
Sisters are well equipped and well trained but they are not Marines. They have some magical abilities that increase their effectiveness but that doesn't mean they are equal. Feel free to think they are but you're flying in the face of decades of back story. In the Grey Knights novel the Grey Knights are killing the SoB fairly effectively except for the advantage the SoB have in numbers and heavy equipment. Yes a Grey Knight is a badass Marine but it still shows you need many more SoB to take down a Marine.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I actually was basing it off the fact that Custodes view anyone not a custodes as lesser than a bother. A petulant child that needs codling. They deign to fight along side the IF because they were ordered to by Trajaan. But it's clear from the books that Trajaan, the Custodes, and even Robbie G see the SoS as one of if not these most potent weapons of the emperor. Never has that claim been leveled against the SoB. Custodes also view the SoS as the only fighting force that they are willing to share their time with.
The books? Which ones?
Beside this, you could just say: "Sorry, I got some fact wrongs". Or, if you don't believe that you got any facts wrong, you could give a source for your statements. But "The Custodes were slaughtering the Sisters, and they decided to end it and show what's her name to the emperor." and "
I assume you are referring to the Reign of Blood, in which the sisters were backed up by full military battalions, and the officio assasinorium. " ? Please, explain. As for "Granted they gave a good fight, but no Astartes force would ever lose in a pitched battle against a rabble of drugged up cultists with knives and lasguns", what about the excerpt quoted by AT? Are you just going to ignore it?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Re: the Grey Knights novel, if only those poor sisters had brought a few spear-wielding peasants.
Back in 2nd Ed it explained how every armour has a weak spot, even Terminator armour.
Back in 2nd Ed the sisters could also bring squads of spear-wielding peasants. They were actually quite good against terminators...
I'd actually forgotten about the Frateris Militia. Didn't they have an upgrade to bows to give them some BS ability? Damn that's a long term retrieval memory. I never played them. Did they really work against Termies?
Kayback wrote: I'd actually forgotten about the Frateris Militia. Didn't they have an upgrade to bows to give them some BS ability? Damn that's a long term retrieval memory. I never played them. Did they really work against Termies?
Only a WS of 2, but strength 5 AP -2 (and frenzied if led by a confessor). On the charge the first guy is likely toast - but they are also coming in with 10 more guys behind them (albeit only so many fighting at once). 3+ to wound, around an 11% chance to get through the armour and you'd likely be getting a fair few hits with the latter models.
Just weight of attacks.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Re: the Grey Knights novel, if only those poor sisters had brought a few spear-wielding peasants.
Back in 2nd Ed it explained how every armour has a weak spot, even Terminator armour.
Sure. And there’s probably a spot on an M1A1 Abrams that can be damaged by a spear, too. It’s still ridiculous to portray a modern tank company getting owned by human Ewoks.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Re: the Grey Knights novel, if only those poor sisters had brought a few spear-wielding peasants.
Back in 2nd Ed it explained how every armour has a weak spot, even Terminator armour.
Sure. And there’s probably a spot on an M1A1 Abrams that can be damaged by a spear, too. It’s still ridiculous to portray a modern tank company getting owned by human Ewoks.
It probably took quite a few militia to take those Terminators down in 2nd, too. It wouldn't shock me if 10-15 were killed to get the Terminators in CC alone. Prior to that the Terminators could mow them down at range at around 10 a turn I think.
Terminators wear nuclear powered armor meant to protect them from the heat and force of a plasma furnace. Going by the old spacebattle numbers, terminator armor offers better protection than most current day tank armor. And Space Marines are just as fast, but far more maneuverable and far, far better able to handle multiple close range targets. They should fare better than an actual tank against spear wielding rabble.
If it only takes 15-30 spearmen to kill one elite post human with the best weapons and training in exceptional armor...not only is that sad, but it calls into question the whole point of making and equipping those post human super soldiers. You could buy millions of spears and thousands of undernourished orphans for the cost one space marine Terminator.
Again, just because it’s in the game mechanics doesn’t mean it’s true in the setting, or should be since writers keep putting those head-slappers in their books.
That’s true. However, we know astartes armor is designed for actual combat, and terminator armor is superior to it. I like to think it was designed using materials science and engineering concepts proven by plasma furnace suits.
Probably based on an STC design for casual sun-hiking gear or something silly like that, knowing the fluff’s proclivities.
It probably took quite a few militia to take those Terminators down in 2nd, too. It wouldn't shock me if 10-15 were killed to get the Terminators in CC alone. Prior to that the Terminators could mow them down at range at around 10 a turn I think.
10-15 peasants with spears couldn't take down a medieval knight in plate armour most of the time, much less a posthuman wielding armour that can withstand being shot up with a fully automatic rocket-propelled missile launcher who is strong enough to literally punch a man's head so hard his fist would decapitate him.
10-15 dudes with spears shouldn't beat a naked Marine, much less one wearing Terminator armour.
It probably took quite a few militia to take those Terminators down in 2nd, too. It wouldn't shock me if 10-15 were killed to get the Terminators in CC alone. Prior to that the Terminators could mow them down at range at around 10 a turn I think.
10-15 peasants with spears couldn't take down a medieval knight in plate armour most of the time, much less a posthuman wielding armour that can withstand being shot up with a fully automatic rocket-propelled missile launcher who is strong enough to literally punch a man's head so hard his fist would decapitate him.
10-15 dudes with spears shouldn't beat a naked Marine, much less one wearing Terminator armour.
It also shouldn't beat a Sister of Battle btw.
Oh I'm saying 10-15 will get killed in the process of taking down five Terminators in 2nd ed. The actual number attacking the Terminators would have to be quite a bit more I think.
I don't think a naked marine should be immune to 10-15 guys with spears though. Marines are still just flesh and blood, and spears are pointy.
Edit: Actually, if the spears didn't have a save modifier the Terminators would last a long, long time. The militia would need the Terminators to roll double 1s, and each Terminator would kill a couple militia every turn.
Fun fact, with no save modifier for spears, Khorne Terminators would be totally immune, automatically passing their save of 2+ on 2d6.
Point being - Whoever is writing the lore, it's pretty clear the Astartes are in a league of their own as far as humanity is concerned. While the SoB's and the SM's are the Marysue's of fiction in 40k, they are not depicted in the same way as to ability. No Sister could ever complete the tasks that SM's view as routine or even menial. And no Battle Brother, except for maybe a Chaplain, could manifest the EMperor's will like the Cannonesses' seem to do with regularity. (See cannonness tanking a direct shot from a Tachyon Arrow and getting up after)
Some people have said that sisters vastly outnumber space marines. I was under the impression that very much the opposite was true.
There are or were at least 1000^2, a million, marines. I seem to recall reading that the number of SoBs was much smaller, partially due to the fact each one must take her vows on holy terra itself, often a long, dangerous and expensive journey.
I think it was said that the total number of actual battle sisters, as opposed to the total number of women in the adeptus sororitas' various factions like ordo hospitaler, ordo dialogues, etc, was in the few tends of thousands.
If my canon is outdated and they have boosted the number of nuns with guns can someone update me?
As to the actual effectiveness of the sisters, they are far above the IG in individual terms, not quite on par with space marines, especially in exotic environments where people forget space marines are often the best choice, and their fanatical loyalty and religious zealotry are important factors in the 4ok universe too as the acts of faith rules prove.
If certain things are detected early enough, like a chaos incursion, genestealer infiltration, etc, the SoBs may be able to crush and burn it out whereas normal human soldiers like PDF might fail at the sight of daemons and xenos.
Matt Swain wrote: I think it was said that the total number of actual battle sisters, as opposed to the total number of women in the adeptus sororitas' various factions like ordo hospitaler, ordo dialogues, etc, was in the few tends of thousands.
The total number of battle sisters is extremely vague.
Their preceptory structures (the largest gathering typically assigned to a location, such as a major cathedral) have around a thousand sisters. It is stated that some of the hundreds of minor orders have multiple preceptories while others might only have a single commandery (up to a couple of hundred sisters). What is not indicated is how many preceptory structures the major orders have - the current codex counts to 7 followed by ...etc - with each preceptory having hundreds/thousands of additional sisters in sub commandery structures.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Point being - Whoever is writing the lore, it's pretty clear the Astartes are in a league of their own as far as humanity is concerned. While the SoB's and the SM's are the Marysue's of fiction in 40k, they are not depicted in the same way as to ability. No Sister could ever complete the tasks that SM's view as routine or even menial. And no Battle Brother, except for maybe a Chaplain, could manifest the EMperor's will like the Cannonesses' seem to do with regularity. (See cannonness tanking a direct shot from a Tachyon Arrow and getting up after)
Ok, so I guess we will never be able to get either a precise source backing your statement, or an acknowledgement that you got some facts wrong. This is not going to result in any kind of productive discussion. You can't just throw random affirmations around and expect people to believe you, especially when they read and can quote specific sources contradicting you.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Point being - Whoever is writing the lore, it's pretty clear the Astartes are in a league of their own as far as humanity is concerned. While the SoB's and the SM's are the Marysue's of fiction in 40k, they are not depicted in the same way as to ability. No Sister could ever complete the tasks that SM's view as routine or even menial. And no Battle Brother, except for maybe a Chaplain, could manifest the EMperor's will like the Cannonesses' seem to do with regularity. (See cannonness tanking a direct shot from a Tachyon Arrow and getting up after)
Ok, so I guess we will never be able to get either a precise source backing your statement, or an acknowledgement that you got some facts wrong.
This is not going to result in any kind of productive discussion. You can't just throw random affirmations around and expect people to believe you, especially when they read and can quote specific sources contradicting you.
Go ahead and quote me the source of Sisters =/better than Astartes. Go ahead, I'll wait.
My sources:
EVERY ASTARTES BOOK AND BRB ever for 40k, Watchers of the Throne as it applies to Custodes statements, SoB Omnibus as it applies to Sister's "abilities". As for their Mary-sue status, See the same. Also, their logic is completely invalid. They worship the emperor and abhor anything not in keeping with his holy word, but they also directly manifest and create a Warp abomination "Living saint" read her keywords. She's strongly implied to be a daemon host by Grey Fax in the book where she's fighting on Cadia. She believed the church had perverted the will of the emperor and created demons (Living Saints) and Mutants (Wulfen) and other heretical beings (Robute ressurecting with Eldar Consorts)
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Go ahead and quote me the source of Sisters =/better than Astartes. Go ahead, I'll wait.
That's not what I am asking a source for. I am asking for sources for the bolded part in this message.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The SoB did not go "toe to toe" with the Custodes, that is at best a terrible reading of the text. The Custodes were slaughtering the Sisters, and they decided to end it and show what's her name to the emperor. The SoB do not compare to the Custodes in any respect. Fluff or table top. I assume you are referring to the Reign of Blood, in which the sisters were backed up by full military battalions, and the officio assasinorium.
While we are on the topic, Those are likely the pinacle of base human evolution. The assassins. They routinely take down major targets, without power armor, faith, or excluding the pariah one, unholy warp stuff. Just pure insane skill.
Not every astartes book ever for 40k compared Astartes to Sisters of Battle. That statement is just obviously not accurate. I think most of them don't even mention the Sisters of Battle.
Religious fanatics in the grimdark over-the-top fictional universe don't act or think in a logical fashion. Yes, that is certainly intended. Not sure how relevant to the current discussion .
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: She believed the church had perverted the will of the emperor and created demons (Living Saints) and Mutants (Wulfen) and other heretical beings (Robute ressurecting with Eldar Consorts)
Ahah I am going to ask for a source about how Greyfax believes that the Wulfen were created by the Ecclesiarchy. Or maybe you are thinking of another church?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: As for their Mary-sue status, See the same. Also, their logic is completely invalid. They worship the emperor and abhor anything not in keeping with his holy word, but they also directly manifest and create a Warp abomination "Living saint" read her keywords. She's strongly implied to be a daemon host by Grey Fax in the book where she's fighting on Cadia. She believed the church had perverted the will of the emperor and created demons (Living Saints) and Mutants (Wulfen) and other heretical beings (Robute ressurecting with Eldar Consorts)
Quite a lot to unpick with this one.
Firstly - 'mary sues' would suggest that the sisters are portrayed as absurdly hyper-competent and perfect, as opposed to - for example - the last two officially published instances of sisters where (trailer) they are shown as weaker than both the astartes and necrons and (daemonifuge) they are... well lets say quite some distance from being flawless. Then you have saint punching bag, canoness "i'm going for a walk, I may be some time", and... honestly i'm struggling to think of a sisters character that isn't either getting killed, blindly fanatical, or otherwise some way far from perfect. Even the new character Junith reached her rank after the superior she was supposed to be guarding got unceremoniously squashed in a building collapse (alongside literally hundreds of other redshirt sisters - what a bunch of mary sues)
Secondly - Celestines keywords are character, infantry, jump pack, fly, celestine. So i've got no idea what you were aiming for there.
A friend has borrowed my copy of the cadia book so i've not got it to hand to reference, but I do recall that Celestine from her own perspective sees it as the Emperor, not the other sisters, bringing her back. And when Cadia is briefly cut off from the warp she and the gemini lose their boosted powers but are not banished back into the warp nor split into mortal and daemonic entities - which a daemonhost is (hence the name).
Again not having the book to hand i'd be interested to see a quote of Greyfax thinking that the church created the Wulfen as that would have taken quite a leap of misinformation on her part - though not impossible for a displaced and confused inquisitor throwing out crackpot theories.
Jesusm has no one read the fall of Cadia? When Greyfax is awakened she becomes horrified at what the church has allowed. She outright refuses to believe the Wulfen aren't mutants and that the Living Saint isn't heretical.
Quoted from the Warhammjer lexicanum
Despite being a powerful Psyker herself, when Greyfax emerged she was shocked at the sight of Imperial psykers using their powers without sanction and to see the Space Wolves Chapter's Wulfen running rampant on the battlefield. What left her utterly appalled though, was seeing how the Imperial defenders of Cadia, worshiped the so-called Living Saint, Celestine — as it was nothing short of idolatry in Greyfax's mind. These sights, however, have not shaken her unwavering faith in the Emperor and Greyfax is committed to aiding the Imperium in defending Cadia. Greyfax ultimately worked alongside these psychic abominations and mutants such as Wulfen in battling Abaddon personally
"At the cavern's edge, Katarinya Greyfax beheld Celestine's arrival with revulsion. How long had she been gone that such heresy could take root?"
One area where space marines would win out over SoBs is experience.
Think about it: Space Marines have far longer lifespans than humans. Hell, Dante' is at least a couple millennia old. At least.
Even spacewolves, known for having short, by SM standards, lifespans have a member who's like over 800, maybe 900 by now.
Think of the experience points they rack up over all that time. Obviously the ones who die early don;t, but by the time you're a SM sarge, or a lieutenant, you've probably got at least a century or two under your belt.
SoB, even with anti aging serums., likely don't have an active service life of a century. It's possible some few are selected for advanced anti aging treatment, or have "holy miracles" that extend their service life, but by and large they just don't even under the biuesrt of conditions live long enough to rack up anywhere neae the XPs a SM vet has.
Plus the fact is the SMs are just more useful in more situations that SoBs are, and both have their uses.
SoBs are excellent at squashing uprising GSC or Chaos cults, crushing dissidents trying to organize for better working/living conditions, etc. They can even stand up to a daemonic incursion if it;s not like a huge number of them. They're also inspirational, the sight of them can rally frateris Militia into a useful fighting force that makes up for it's deficiencies with faith and fanaticism. They ca be used to "stiffen" ( no stupid jokes please) regular IG forces with their faith and fervor.
But they can't do a lot of things SMs excel at. Have a troublesome ork depot behind enemy lines that is supplying ork forces and servicing ork vehicles you need to get rid of? A few squads of SM doing a rapid insertion raid may get rid of it, a SoB force isn't likely to. Spacehulk just dropped into your system and is causing trouble? A SM taskforce can hopefully handle it. A heavy tank force needs killing? Send in some devastator squads.
They're really different forces with different expectations and mandates. Just because they both wear power armor and tote bolters doesn't mean they're comparable.
(Parts of this post probably sounded hostile or condescending- genuine apology for that; but discrepancies between novels, movies and the actual game is a HUGE pet peeve, so please believe me when I say it's not personal)
Your irrational pet peeves are no concern of anyone's.
Fluff is more important than rules when discussing the setting and the people in it because rules much more readily change for reasons that have nothing to do with the setting or characters inside.
Initiative being removed from the game mechanics doesn't suddenly mean Sisters of Battle, Space Marines, Eldar, Ogryn, Necrons, and Great Unclean Ones are all just as quick, it was done because GW believed it would be better for the game state.
The Codecies and Rules are the ultimate source of fluff.
The novels are notoriously unreliable and all over the place. There's one where a Tau Battlesuit uses S6 AP3 Plasma Rifles to destroy a battleship. There's one where the inside of a Baneblade has a separate "bridge" and command decks.
IIRC there's a semi-official thing from long ago that essentially stated that Marines-on-the-tabletop are how good Marines are compared to the rest of the galaxy, and the depictions of one or two marines wading through armies are propaganda.
I have, it's just been a while and I didn't remember a number of the things you were claiming - notably the wulfen being created by the church and celestine being a daemon price (aside from looking at her keywords as you suggested).
All I can really say at this point is that the mis-remembered beliefs of a highly paranoid inquisitor who has no point of reference after being dropped in thousands of years out of time... is not really a solid basis for declaring the sisterhood to be 'warp abomination creating mary sues'.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: As for their Mary-sue status, See the same. Also, their logic is completely invalid. They worship the emperor and abhor anything not in keeping with his holy word, but they also directly manifest and create a Warp abomination "Living saint" read her keywords. She's strongly implied to be a daemon host by Grey Fax in the book where she's fighting on Cadia. She believed the church had perverted the will of the emperor and created demons (Living Saints) and Mutants (Wulfen) and other heretical beings (Robute ressurecting with Eldar Consorts)
Quite a lot to unpick with this one.
Firstly - 'mary sues' would suggest that the sisters are portrayed as absurdly hyper-competent and perfect, as opposed to - for example - the last two officially published instances of sisters where (trailer) they are shown as weaker than both the astartes and necrons and (daemonifuge) they are... well lets say quite some distance from being flawless. Then you have saint punching bag, canoness "i'm going for a walk, I may be some time", and... honestly i'm struggling to think of a sisters character that isn't either getting killed, blindly fanatical, or otherwise some way far from perfect. Even the new character Junith reached her rank after the superior she was supposed to be guarding got unceremoniously squashed in a building collapse (alongside literally hundreds of other redshirt sisters - what a bunch of mary sues)
.
to many people misuse the term Mary Sue, the term has become to literature what Nazi/facist is to politcs. There's an actual definition, and there may even be things in the subject that MEET the definition, but it tends to be over used to describe anything the person speaking dislikes. and most people couldn't tell you the actual definition of it if their life depended on it.
Matt Swain wrote: One area where space marines would win out over SoBs is experience.
Think about it: Space Marines have far longer lifespans than humans. Hell, Dante' is at least a couple millennia old. At least.
Even spacewolves, known for having short, by SM standards, lifespans have a member who's like over 800, maybe 900 by now..
Actually, if you look at Sisters of Battle, Alicia Dominica was over 600 years old when she was killed in action and she wasn't the last of the founding leaders of the SoB to die in battle. Space Marines can live very old, but they seldom do. Your average Space Marine is probably about as old as your casual Imperial Guard junior officer (between the age 20 and 40 years old) and so would your casual Sister. Dante was supposed to be the eldest Space Marine at around 1000 years old before the rift. Grimnar was the eldest Space Wolf at 750 years old and the eldest Ultramarine was something 350 years old. These are anomalies though as is Dominica or others.
Matt Swain wrote: One area where space marines would win out over SoBs is experience.
Think about it: Space Marines have far longer lifespans than humans. Hell, Dante' is at least a couple millennia old. At least.
Even spacewolves, known for having short, by SM standards, lifespans have a member who's like over 800, maybe 900 by now..
Actually, if you look at Sisters of Battle, Alicia Dominica was over 600 years old when she was killed in action and she wasn't the last of the founding leaders of the SoB to die in battle. Space Marines can live very old, but they seldom do. Your average Space Marine is probably about as old as your casual Imperial Guard junior officer (between the age 20 and 40 years old) and so would your casual Sister. Dante was supposed to be the eldest Space Marine at around 1000 years old before the rift. Grimnar was the eldest Space Wolf at 750 years old and the eldest Ultramarine was something 350 years old. These are anomalies though as is Dominica or others.
I think you'll need to provide a source for the average age of a Space Marine. The bulk of a Chapter is made up of Tactical Marines, and Tactical Marines have been through periods fighting as both Devastators and Assault Marines.
Also, as far as I know, Space Marines will be far more likely to return to the fighting ranks after serious injury. They will also routinely survive injuries that Sisters won't. All else being equal*, Space Marines will be more experienced because they don't die as easily.
*It's highly likely not equal. I'd bet Space Marines are also sent on more dangerous deployments.
Also, experience can have less to do with age and more to do with frequency of deployment.
epronovost wrote: Your average Space Marine is probably about as old as your casual Imperial Guard junior officer (between the age 20 and 40 years old) and so would your casual Sister.
Sister Helena, in the 2nd edition SoB codex, is said to have first reached the ranks of canoness after 30 years in service. Unfortunately that is the only reference to age I remember seeing on the sisters, and doesn't indicate when her service started. Also she had a notably rapid rise and was a member of a famulous rather than a militant order.
As soon as I hear the term Mary Sue I stop trying to debate or discuss with the user. The term mary sue is a sexist one created to mock the idea of a competent fermale character in a storyline.
It's usually connected to star trek, and FFS the enterprise is technically the USS Mary Sue, the characters on board are all Mary Sues, etc. But they've got the magical Y chromosome so they're OK.
I remember seeing a youtube video titles :"Why Rey is a mary sue but luck skywalker wasn't a marty stu."
Luke was a mary sue, first time in a fighter cockpit and he survives a battle lots of obvious veterans don't and nukes the most powerful war machine in the galaxy,t, but hey, he's got the force so he's OK.
But rey was a mary sue.
I don't bother with people who toss the term mary sue around. There's no point.
Insectum7 wrote: I think you'll need to provide a source for the average age of a Space Marine. The bulk of a Chapter is made up of Tactical Marines, and Tactical Marines have been through periods fighting as both Devastators and Assault Marines.
A Space Marines starts to see active combat at age 15 or 16 as a scout. At 18 he receives his Black Carapace and becomes a devastator. If devastator and assault squad training is about as long as scout training (fairly logical assumption). You average Space Marine Tactical Marine has 6 to 9 years of experince and is in his early 20's. A Sister of Battle passes through a similar gauntlet, except she starts as a Novice at age 16 or so, graduates a couple of years later as a Sister of Battle and as she gains experience and shows some talent becomes a Dominion, Seraphim,Retributor, etc. Cadians used to start their service as whiteshield at age 14 and graduated to full soliders at age 18, etc. All elite soldiers of the Imperium follow a similar journey. They all start their training and military careers as children and, when they reach the ranks to be a "core unit", they are young adults with about 5-10 years of military experience.
quote]Also, experience can have less to do with age and more to do with frequency of deployment.
Indeed, but Sisters of Battle are pretty always at war or close to be just like Space Marines.
Matt Swain wrote: As soon as I hear the term Mary Sue I stop trying to debate or discuss with the user. The term mary sue is a sexist one created to mock the idea of a competent fermale character in a storyline.
It's usually connected to star trek, and FFS the enterprise is technically the USS Mary Sue, the characters on board are all Mary Sues, etc. But they've got the magical Y chromosome so they're OK.
I remember seeing a youtube video titles :"Why Rey is a mary sue but luck skywalker wasn't a marty stu."
Luke was a mary sue, first time in a fighter cockpit and he survives a battle lots of obvious veterans don't and nukes the most powerful war machine in the galaxy,t, but hey, he's got the force so he's OK.
But rey was a mary sue.
I don't bother with people who toss the term mary sue around. There's no point.
Akchually... It's called Mary Sue because the protagonist in the star trek fanfic that spawned the term was called Mary Sue. And it wasn't about her being a woman, but rather about mocking fan-made characters achieving/being capable of everything without any effort (mostly because they're wish-fulfillment self-inserts by their authors). It's not related to gender at all, although you're free to use Marty Stu for male characters if you feel the need to differentiate.
Ok, well if we are going to bring femanism into the argument we might as well lock the thread, nothing good can come of this discussion now. While we are at it: Why aren't Ogryns considered equal to Primarchs? Why aren't Squiggs considered equal to Warbosses?
I will grant you that the books are wildly inaccurate, but if we are to believe that SoB's are in some inconceivable way equal or close to equal to the literal gene science of the Emperor, then why even bother with discussions of the lore? Because now a lowly base human has to be just as good as the literal gods she likely worships. The funny thing is this idea would be wholy deemed heretical by every faction of humanity available. Even the Cog boys would go to war over this, and they believe themselves to be the pinnacle of design.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I will grant you that the books are wildly inaccurate, but if we are to believe that SoB's are in some inconceivable way equal or close to equal to the literal gene science of the Emperor, then why even bother with discussions of the lore?
Well the lore pretty much describes SoB and Space Marines as being close to equal with the Space Marines being superior due to their genes, but if you look at the lore written for both factions, they mirror each other fairly well. Their respective heroes do similar feats and they fight and sometime win against impossible odds against the same enemies. Is it stupid? Yes, it's rather stupid. A superhuman with super training should be better than a human with super training, but hey it's GW fluff. It doesn't make much sense and doesn't have much internal consistency.
Because now a lowly base human has to be just as good as the literal gods she likely worships.
That's a bit of a reduction to the absurd and then again the God-Emperor is a man or more accurately was a man and for all we know he could be killed like any other man.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Ok, well if we are going to bring femanism into the argument we might as well lock the thread, nothing good can come of this discussion now. While we are at it: Why aren't Ogryns considered equal to Primarchs? Why aren't Squiggs considered equal to Warbosses?
I will grant you that the books are wildly inaccurate, but if we are to believe that SoB's are in some inconceivable way equal or close to equal to the literal gene science of the Emperor, then why even bother with discussions of the lore? Because now a lowly base human has to be just as good as the literal gods she likely worships. The funny thing is this idea would be wholy deemed heretical by every faction of humanity available. Even the Cog boys would go to war over this, and they believe themselves to be the pinnacle of design.
Ok now if the contxt of the 40k universe SoBs have one major thing the SMs don't: Fanatical faith.
In 40k, faith does matter. And faith can be a real power in 40k that tangibly manifests on the battlefield. Sure, amrines have faith but SoBs have it to a high enough level to routinely manifest itself on the battlefield. It may very well be warp based in some way. If the negative aspects of human nature, anger, rage, hate, greed, lust, etc, can manifest in the form of the power of the chaos gods and daemons, maybe somnething positive like faith can manifest too, and these are the acts of of faith and miracles the SoBs can have. Hell, the SoBs lketerally gt miracle dice now.
In the 40k universe there's more than firepower on the battleifled. Faith, courage, hate, etc can have real effects on the field, and the SoBs use this to a high degree. In that aspect they can get some things SMs don't and that can have an effect on the battle.
Matt Swain wrote: As soon as I hear the term Mary Sue I stop trying to debate or discuss with the user. The term mary sue is a sexist one created to mock the idea of a competent fermale character in a storyline.
It's usually connected to star trek, and FFS the enterprise is technically the USS Mary Sue, the characters on board are all Mary Sues, etc. But they've got the magical Y chromosome so they're OK.
I remember seeing a youtube video titles :"Why Rey is a mary sue but luck skywalker wasn't a marty stu."
Luke was a mary sue, first time in a fighter cockpit and he survives a battle lots of obvious veterans don't and nukes the most powerful war machine in the galaxy,t, but hey, he's got the force so he's OK.
But rey was a mary sue.
I don't bother with people who toss the term mary sue around. There's no point.
Depending on which video you watched you obviously didn't watch or listen to it. There are plenty of in universe explanations for Luke's fighter ability, he doesn't have automatic acceptance or automatically win every situation.
Rey literally does. She doesn't receive training in anything but is better at it, when she does receive training she's already better than the masters. Everyone loves and accepts her leadership.
A better example of a Mary Sue than Luke is Anakin, but even he falls short of the Mary Sue trope in movies after the 1st.
Mary Sue has an unfortunately gendered title but it is in no way a gendered role. There have been plenty of male Mary Sue's. Yes there is an element of Mary Sue-ness in every main character, otherwise they wouldn't be the protagonist but a background character. The Mary Sue-ness comes from the self insert fantasy where the main character is so totally OP that the story is literally boring to watch. Yes in modern Western cinema the protagonist is 99.9% likely to win against the odds bit the story and character development along the way is the attraction. Mary Rey had what character development? On a side note related to your next point, she isn't even a Skywalker, so it isn't a universe full of Mary Skywalkers.
Compare Rey to Jyn. Both strong female characters, both with similar storylines. One is a good character in a good movie, the other is Rey.
WRT the Sisters or Marines being Mary Sues? Doesn't really hold water. While it is easy to write the protagonists off as a Mary Sue because of how unlikely the story is that's part of the fantasy of WH40K. The selection process for Marines is imaginatively hard, but story wise we'd still need to see people passing it otherwise the universe would die. IRL Special Forces selection is rediculously hard but people pass it anyway. For the real Mary Sue's of the WH40K world look at the Primarchs.
They are not the embodiment of the Emperor's will, they are the embodiment of Mary Sues. The in-universe explanations for their pre-recovery period and even for some of their Heresy periods are complete and total trash.
If we want to go off on the tangent of faith, are you honestly comparing the faith of the Sisters (vaunted though it may be) to the faith of essentially the Emperor's own Grand Children? There is no SoB faith that could fluff wise compare to the faith of say, a Grey Knight, or a Black Templar. 666 Trials that Grey knights go through would utterly destroy the strongest sister. No SoB could go on the Crusades the BT's go through. There is a reason the SoBs were left out of Indomitus. They can't keep up.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: There is no SoB faith that could fluff wise compare to the faith of say, a Grey Knight, or a Black Templar. 666 Trials that Grey knights go through would utterly destroy the strongest sister. No SoB could go on the Crusades the BT's go through. There is a reason the SoBs were left out of Indomitus. They can't keep up.
More of your headcannon?
Grey Knights don't have faith in the Emperor as a god.
The sisters are known to have crusaded with the templars - see the Vinculus Crusade for an example
And white dwarf July 2019 features Guilliman seeking the aid of the sisters as well as an example battlegroup (Haephestus, page 45) which includes approximately 1400 sisters supporting two strike forces of marines.
I don't know what you gain from just making this kind of stuff up.
The assault on the Pariah Nexus which is what the Indomitus box/storyline is also a part of was spearheaded by the Sororitas, who are able to defeat the Necrons because friendship faith is magic, essentially.
Personally, I don't take the jib that sisters are as good as marines based upon being able to use faith...
However, for the sake of argument, I will accept it.
BUT, that does not make up for all the avenues of combat marines are capable of that sisters would not be, or at the very least would not be as capable in. I think Marines pip it purely on flexibility, namely boarding actions, effective void capability (not saying sisters don't have a way to do this, but marines are designed for it) amongst other things, such as being able to carry on fighting with grievous wounds etc.
Also, are we talking marines as in classic marines, as I don't think even faith makes sisters on par with primaris nowadays. Personal opinion, I can see arguments against it also.
Insectum7 wrote: I think you'll need to provide a source for the average age of a Space Marine. The bulk of a Chapter is made up of Tactical Marines, and Tactical Marines have been through periods fighting as both Devastators and Assault Marines.
A Space Marines starts to see active combat at age 15 or 16 as a scout. At 18 he receives his Black Carapace and becomes a devastator. If devastator and assault squad training is about as long as scout training (fairly logical assumption). You average Space Marine Tactical Marine has 6 to 9 years of experince and is in his early 20's. . . .
Two problems.
First: You skipped over the Marine spending time as an Assault Marine.
Second: Your assumption about the average doesn't take into account how long Space Marines might spend as Tactical Marines. You need data about attrition, veterancy, etc. to fine an actual average. The good book states that the Sergeants of Tactical Squads often have decades if not centuries of experience, so we know that at lest one member of the Tactical squad can be centuries old (that's going to bring your average way up, )
According to the 5th edition codex, a Space Marine must complete several campaigns as part of both Assault and Devastator squads before earning a permanent position in a Tactical Squad, and says that progression can take decades. Also in the 5th ed book, a Marine is usually a Sergeant before moving on to the Veteran company. So we have a progression that is Scout, Devastator, Tactical, Sergeant, Veteran, and Sergeants and Veterans can have centuries of experience. Tactical marines averaging in their early 20's doesn't add up.
First: You skipped over the Marine spending time as an Assault Marine.
I don't think so from 15 to 18 a Marine is a scout; from 18 to 20 Devastator; from 20 to 23 Assault Marine. Thus the younger Tactical Marines would be 23-24 years old on average. That's what I would call early twenties, but it would indeed be more accurate to say early-mid twenties.
Tactical marines averaging in their early 20's doesn't add up.
You are correct that the average doesn't add up, I should have said the median age more than the average age since indeed some rare Space Marines with centuries of experience could still be operating either as sergeants or simple tactical Marines because they simply don't have the aptitude to rise further in ranks, but are abnormally lucky not to have been killed sooner. The same can be said for Sisters of Battle who can also live century long lives and remain fully operational for combat duty.
Also there are inquisitors in the Eisenhorn series that are well into their second century. The old guy that is like the most powerful psyker in the entire base human universe, he's like 1400 according to Eisenhorn, and lives well into the third book. Eisenhorn himself and his Pariah are both close to 500. So numbers really go out the window on the "Average age" argument. There are obviously SMs that are well over 1k. Bjorn I thought fought alongside Russ and Dorn, which makes him over 10k? The Dark angel that's in stasis in their planet's deepest chapel is a primarch by the rumors, and If we go into the Chaos boys they are Naught's considered living space marines? Because I thought it said most "Venerable Dreadnaughts" earn their status through multiple centuries of service. Hell, isn't Fadix over 1k? He's been there since the Horus heresy according to the Custodes books.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Also there are inquisitors in the Eisenhorn series that are well into their second century. The old guy that is like the most powerful psyker in the entire base human universe, he's like 1400 according to Eisenhorn, and lives well into the third book. Eisenhorn himself and his Pariah are both close to 500. So numbers really go out the window on the "Average age" argument. There are obviously SMs that are well over 1k. Bjorn I thought fought alongside Russ and Dorn, which makes him over 10k? The Dark angel that's in stasis in their planet's deepest chapel is a primarch by the rumors, and If we go into the Chaos boys they are Naught's considered living space marines? Because I thought it said most "Venerable Dreadnaughts" earn their status through multiple centuries of service. Hell, isn't Fadix over 1k? He's been there since the Horus heresy according to the Custodes books.
Oh yes. The numbers are so far “out the window” when we look at the far extremes of humanity with the highest grade resources, post humanity, and mutants.
First: You skipped over the Marine spending time as an Assault Marine.
I don't think so from 15 to 18 a Marine is a scout; from 18 to 20 Devastator; from 20 to 23 Assault Marine. Thus the younger Tactical Marines would be 23-24 years old on average. That's what I would call early twenties, but it would indeed be more accurate to say early-mid twenties.
Tactical marines averaging in their early 20's doesn't add up.
You are correct that the average doesn't add up, I should have said the median age more than the average age since indeed some rare Space Marines with centuries of experience could still be operating either as sergeants or simple tactical Marines because they simply don't have the aptitude to rise further in ranks, but are abnormally lucky not to have been killed sooner. The same can be said for Sisters of Battle who can also live century long lives and remain fully operational for combat duty.
But again, the 5th ed codex says the process to move through Devastator and Assault can take decades.
Imo your conclusion of "median in their 20's" is still heavily based on assumptions and doesn't seem to square with the facts provided. If it can take decades to become a Tac marine, and Centuries to make it to Veteran, a median of early 20's means an extremely skewed disposition. I'll grant you that some might be in their 20s, but enough for median? I don't think so.
The age thing has become less relevant as rejuvenat treatments became more normal in the imperium. Before abnett invented them and their use, the only people explicitly described as being old were admech and marines.
Basically what you have now is:
All marines have built in rejuve, so any one of them can be old.
Any other imperial warrior of sufficient importance can be given rejuve treatments, so any one of them can be old.
It's hard to reconcile some of this stuff with marines because you have to look at attrition rates and recruitment rates and how small their chapters are.
There two extremes:
Marines are indestructible and lose less than a handful in every campaign, thus slow recruitment.
Marines are relatively easily killed and they have fast turn over.
It's hard to reconcile because there are more anti tank weapons in the galaxy than marines, so they shouldn't be that hard to kill. There are more leman Russ than marines, and their battlecannon should be able to kill a squad of marines if it lands on them.
So, imo marines have a modest turn over. Let's say 15-25%* per campaign. That means a company deployed to a warzone would lose 15-25 marines throught out the campaign.
This would require a pretty continual supply of scout initiates being inducted into squads - ie every company deploys with 30-40 scouts as support and also slot fillers. They suffer casualties but generally less because they're not front line troops so over a campaign your scouts move into squads to shore up numbers as attrition takes hold.
This means a marine force on deployment wouldn't necessarily appear to suffer losses visually, but would suffer them in experience.
*I would say that the imperial guard probably suffers 50-60% casualties in the same timeframe....
..
It's hard to reconcile because there are more anti tank weapons in the galaxy than marines, so they shouldn't be that hard to kill. There are more leman Russ than marines, and their battlecannon should be able to kill a squad of marines if it lands on them.
There are more AK-47s than there are Navy Seals (or SAS or whatever), so they shouldn't be hard to kill. . . There's really a logical disconnect with that sort of statement. These troops aren't(shouldn't) be deployed in a way that sets them up for being mere bullet sponges for effective counter fire.
That aside, one of the major benefits of marines is that they are able to return to battle after suffering injuries that would preclude further service of a normal human. Those anti-tank weapons might knock them out of the fight, but Marines are far more likely to survive the trauma and serve again. If Marines and Sisters suffered the same casualty rate in action, marines would wind up with a much higher rate of survival and redeployment, and thus wind up with a more experienced group of soldiers.
Technically space marines are not supposed to think of the emperor as a god. I remember reading that somewhere years ago. They revere the emperor as the savior and lord of humanity and the greatest of humanity, but still not a god.
They were forbidden to view the emperor as a god because they themselves carried the emperor's own DNA in them and if they were to view the emperor as god they could come to see themselves as gods and become arrogant as the CSM did.
So the sisters can believe the emperor is a god, but space marines are not supposed to as it could lead them to hubris and falling to chaos.
So sisters can have their miracles and acts of faith, perhaps even created by their deep belief the emperor is a god, but marines can't.
Keep remembering: In the 40k universe belief and faith are actual powers, they can make things happen that can't normally happen.
Matt Swain wrote: So sisters can have their miracles and acts of faith, perhaps even created by their deep belief the emperor is a god, but marines can't.
It is followed through in the fluff as well - sisters aren't the only ones capable of miracles.
Saint Sabbat is probably the most extreme example but you can go all the way back to the horus heresy books with daemons being driven off by faith.
It's hard to reconcile because there are more anti tank weapons in the galaxy than marines, so they shouldn't be that hard to kill. There are more leman Russ than marines, and their battlecannon should be able to kill a squad of marines if it lands on them.
There are more AK-47s than there are Navy Seals (or SAS or whatever), so they shouldn't be hard to kill. . . There's really a logical disconnect with that sort of statement. These troops aren't(shouldn't) be deployed in a way that sets them up for being mere bullet sponges for effective counter fire.
That aside, one of the major benefits of marines is that they are able to return to battle after suffering injuries that would preclude further service of a normal human. Those anti-tank weapons might knock them out of the fight, but Marines are far more likely to survive the trauma and serve again. If Marines and Sisters suffered the same casualty rate in action, marines would wind up with a much higher rate of survival and redeployment, and thus wind up with a more experienced group of soldiers.
In the context of 40k it's pretty different though. Marines are going into existing battlefields, not populations of civilians with insurgents peppered throughout.
Virtually every deployment is against forces already armed for war, often in the middle of prosecuting one. They aren't depicted as attacking barracks and shooting people in their sleep (although I imagine they do do that). Their special missions are against heavily armed Orks to kill a mekboss, or lightning strike on a tau depot defended by battlesuits.
Every guard squad they face has up to 2 anti tank weapons equipped.
The mind of assymetrical warfare seals do well is hard to replicate in the total war environment of 40k. It would happen far more often inside the imperium with arbitrators or inquisitorial storm troopers. Bit the total war battlefields into which marines are deployed are not going to be anything like the same.
As to recovery, I'm sceptical that marines are more resistant to missiles than tanks. It seems a bit ridiculous that marines are more capable of surviving an anti tank round than a normal human is a bullet. Marines aren't bullet proof. They're very likely to survive being shot with small arms, even when pelted with them. But a plasma blast to the chest, or a metal gun is going to melt a hole all the way through them just as it would an actual tank.
I mean you then run into the issue that if a melta gun can't one shot a marine, the bolters are completely useless at killing marines which we know is not true.
Matt Swain wrote: So sisters can have their miracles and acts of faith, perhaps even created by their deep belief the emperor is a god, but marines can't.
It is followed through in the fluff as well - sisters aren't the only ones capable of miracles.
Saint Sabbat is probably the most extreme example but you can go all the way back to the horus heresy books with daemons being driven off by faith.
You're right. Miracles are generally for people who can and do believe the emperor is a god. Marines don't get miracles, they get librarians and psyker powers.
It's hard to reconcile because there are more anti tank weapons in the galaxy than marines, so they shouldn't be that hard to kill. There are more leman Russ than marines, and their battlecannon should be able to kill a squad of marines if it lands on them.
There are more AK-47s than there are Navy Seals (or SAS or whatever), so they shouldn't be hard to kill. . . There's really a logical disconnect with that sort of statement. These troops aren't(shouldn't) be deployed in a way that sets them up for being mere bullet sponges for effective counter fire.
That aside, one of the major benefits of marines is that they are able to return to battle after suffering injuries that would preclude further service of a normal human. Those anti-tank weapons might knock them out of the fight, but Marines are far more likely to survive the trauma and serve again. If Marines and Sisters suffered the same casualty rate in action, marines would wind up with a much higher rate of survival and redeployment, and thus wind up with a more experienced group of soldiers.
In the context of 40k it's pretty different though. Marines are going into existing battlefields, not populations of civilians with insurgents peppered throughout.
Virtually every deployment is against forces already armed for war, often in the middle of prosecuting one. They aren't depicted as attacking barracks and shooting people in their sleep (although I imagine they do do that). Their special missions are against heavily armed Orks to kill a mekboss, or lightning strike on a tau depot defended by battlesuits.
Every guard squad they face has up to 2 anti tank weapons equipped.
The mind of assymetrical warfare seals do well is hard to replicate in the total war environment of 40k. It would happen far more often inside the imperium with arbitrators or inquisitorial storm troopers. Bit the total war battlefields into which marines are deployed are not going to be anything like the same.
As to recovery, I'm sceptical that marines are more resistant to missiles than tanks. It seems a bit ridiculous that marines are more capable of surviving an anti tank round than a normal human is a bullet. Marines aren't bullet proof. They're very likely to survive being shot with small arms, even when pelted with them. But a plasma blast to the chest, or a metal gun is going to melt a hole all the way through them just as it would an actual tank.
I mean you then run into the issue that if a melta gun can't one shot a marine, the bolters are completely useless at killing marines which we know is not true.
Debatable.
You can kill a tank in many ways, mobility kill, crew kills, cook off, obliteration... something as small as throwing a track can "kill" a tank. Blowing the arm or foot off a Marine may not stop them. The increased clotting factor and stims can keep a Marine that's "mobility killed" from becoming a casualty. Sure sooner or later they may die from their wounds but if it's after they've killed an entire battalion of enemy is that a problem?
Unlike vehicles a human body is very resilient to parts damage. Now make it post human. Give it extra hearts, give it enhanced pain management. Give it increased clotting. Give it increased strength and dense bones. Give it an almost armoured torso to protect most vital organs. Give it heightened reflexes. Now encase it in armour. Now give it a cannon that can one-shot most human equivalent enemies.
Pit that against an IG squad and the Marine will engage the HW and Special Weapons in order of threat. It'll ignore most other attacks until it can get to them, moving faster and striking more accurately with deadlier weapons than the IG squad has and it's almost a non contest. The other races have various advantages, Tau will damage Marines if they hit them, Tyranids can claw them apart, Orks just have too many to effectively knock out like that, Eldar move fast and hit hard and are resilient, Necrons are resilient.
There are plenty of AT guns that could kill a Marine, but you've got to hit them with them first and make it a hit that counts. A Meltagun shot to the arm may result in the rest of the Marine being boiled but it may just mean they lose an arm.
Marines aren't always going up against the worst of the worst, sometimes it's fairly rudimentary.
I think Astartes got it spot on in terms of marine capability, 5 marines were sent to do a job against fairly low level opposition with some heavy weapons but nothing sinister. Then when it came to the psykers, they were arguably out classed or matched in a combat capacity, at which point they utilised tactics and experience to win the day. That was 5 marines.
At the same time, and this is genuinely one of my favourite marine stories, in the 3rd edition codex where 30 marines are deployed by thunder hawk to neutralise some form of research facility based on an asteroid. They go in, exterminate and leave, again the resistance was futile, they didn't have weaponry that would trouble the marines, and the marines were extremely efficient. The implication is that the defenders found something that corrupted the facility and it's security, which may be the justification for sending in marines as it could be a chaos or xenos corrupted cult for example.... Point stands to reason, marines do not always drop in on heavily defended and high risk targets. Sometimes they are the quickest weapon against any target. A planetary governor that is a flight risk, send a drop pod crashing through the palace roof within minutes (providing marines are in the theatre that is, which is a limitation, but there is also a limitation in terms of amounts of sisters also so it's moot really).
Again, if you settle that sisters can match marines due to faith, they absolutely cannot match marines in terms of flexibility and battlefield roles, marines can cover every required operation (arguably anyway, unless substantial numbers are needed for attrition, but hey, that is what Krieg is for), sisters cannot, you can argue this is an equipment limitation, and you may be right, but still, marines have more options.
Sisters are better trained and equipped than almost every other human force in the Imperium and have the benefit of being blessed by the Emperor. They are respected and revered by most.
Marines are not human - they are both superhuman and inhuman, they are faster, more durable and better equipped than the Sisters (the Black Carapace through to the more substantial void fleet including their own Battleship equivalents and larger). They also have a loyal and effective thrall class to support them in and out of battle as well as stronger links to the Ad Mech. All true citizens of Imperium respect and revere them - or at least greatly fear them.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Point being - Whoever is writing the lore, it's pretty clear the Astartes are in a league of their own as far as humanity is concerned.
Point being, I don't really want your personal opinion on whether marines are superior to sisters, I want you to acknowledge this:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Beside this, you could just say: "Sorry, I got some fact wrongs". Or, if you don't believe that you got any facts wrong, you could give a source for your statements. But "The Custodes were slaughtering the Sisters, and they decided to end it and show what's her name to the emperor." and "I assume you are referring to the Reign of Blood, in which the sisters were backed up by full military battalions, and the officio assasinorium." ? Please, explain
Name a source or recognize you got facts wrong. Or something else, but don't just ignore it.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: No Sister could ever complete the tasks that SM's view as routine or even menial.
See, this is me giving a source, rather than just giving my opinion.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Because now a lowly base human has to be just as good as the literal gods she likely worships.
The way the Sisters of Battle view the Adeptus Astartes is described in the lore, and it is not one of worship. On the one hand, the Sisters have some respects for space marines as creations of the Emperor, but on the other hand, even if they aren't outright mutant, they eschew the “purity of the human form” that the Sisters believe in, and they are often holding heretical beliefs. So it's a very strained relationship, they can work together but they don't like space marines.
Do you want sources on that too? Or do you straight up don't care about sources, and just go by your opinion instead?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: There are obviously SMs that are well over 1k. Bjorn I thought fought alongside Russ and Dorn, which makes him over 10k? The Dark angel that's in stasis in their planet's deepest chapel is a primarch by the rumors, and If we go into the Chaos boys they are Naught's considered living space marines? Because I thought it said most "Venerable Dreadnaughts" earn their status through multiple centuries of service. Hell, isn't Fadix over 1k? He's been there since the Horus heresy according to the Custodes books.
The age of anyone in stasis is irrelevant. You don't gain combat experience while in stasis. You don't train while in stasis. You don't do anything while in stasis.
You know I never thought of that, but that's really cool and makes total sense. The elite human warriors of the church coming down on Space Marines who've fallen out of favor makes for some desperate and brutal imagery.
Insectum7 wrote: You know I never thought of that, but that's really cool and makes total sense. The elite human warriors of the church coming down on Space Marines who've fallen out of favor makes for some desperate and brutal imagery.
A nod to the original rogue trader appearance of the adepta sororitas.
Insectum7 wrote: You know I never thought of that, but that's really cool and makes total sense. The elite human warriors of the church coming down on Space Marines who've fallen out of favor makes for some desperate and brutal imagery.
Especially cool when the modus operandi is SUPRISE DROP POD ATTACK ON YOUR CHAPTER MASTER'S FACE!
Imagine this. Chapter Master Bob, still thinking of himself as a loyalist, is preparing for his daily blood-drinking, wolf-owling, ritual scarring ritual. Then, out of the skies, BAM, a drop pod falls right into his cauldron of blood-wolf. He is very confused. The drop pod doors open to a chorus of melta and flamers incinerating all his councilors, while a puritan Inquisitor points his Inquisitorial Rosette, yelling that Bob has been declared Excomunicate Traitoris, and that he will fall to the Inquisition's best weapon, surprise. Fear and surprise. Fear and surprise, ruthless efficiency, and near fanatical devotion to the Emperor of Mankind!
Insectum7 wrote: You know I never thought of that, but that's really cool and makes total sense. The elite human warriors of the church coming down on Space Marines who've fallen out of favor makes for some desperate and brutal imagery.
Especially cool when the modus operandi is SUPRISE DROP POD ATTACK ON YOUR CHAPTER MASTER'S FACE!
Imagine this. Chapter Master Bob, still thinking of himself as a loyalist, is preparing for his daily blood-drinking, wolf-owling, ritual scarring ritual. Then, out of the skies, BAM, a drop pod falls right into his cauldron of blood-wolf. He is very confused. The drop pod doors open to a chorus of melta and flamers incinerating all his councilors, while a puritan Inquisitor points his Inquisitorial Rosette, yelling that Bob has been declared Excomunicate Traitoris, and that he will fall to the Inquisition's best weapon, surprise. Fear and surprise. Fear and surprise, ruthless efficiency, and near fanatical devotion to the Emperor of Mankind!
Do Sisters Drop Pod? I thought that was a uniquely Space Marine thing. Or are they slower Pods or something?
Insectum7 wrote: Do Sisters Drop Pod? I thought that was a uniquely Space Marine thing. Or are they slower Pods or something?
Its newer fluff I think, but they drop Cathedrals on people. Cathedrals with giant external flamers that then deploy and unload wave after wave of Sororitas forces. There's a great blurb on it in the 9th BRB.
I think Sisters acting as the "let's purge the Marines" army (even though other Marines have been known to do it as well, see Badab) is largely based in their fanaticism and resistance to the whole "Space Marines being avenging angels" propaganda.
A guardsman will be hesitant to fire upon a Space Marine who has only ever really been known to them from childhood as an angel of the Emperor's wrath, but a Sister is closer to the Church and the Emperor (in terms of faith and theology, at least), and can likely separate the Astartes from their propagandised image.
So, the combination of being the most elite "basic" human forces and being so fanatically loyal that they can be relied upon to act in the Imperium's best interest against some of their more fearsome assets, and won't show any mercy to them, is why Sisters are so often chosen for those roles.
I personally don't put them on the same power level, but that's not to say that Marines will always beat the Sisters.
Don't know whether or not we'll get models for the drop Cathedral, but I think there are good odds.
Another famous and recent lore scene that uses them is in Pariah; the first battle the Imperium actually wins involves two drop cathedrals landing behind enemy lines.
Insectum7 wrote: You know I never thought of that, but that's really cool and makes total sense. The elite human warriors of the church coming down on Space Marines who've fallen out of favor makes for some desperate and brutal imagery.
A nod to the original rogue trader appearance of the adepta sororitas.
Ah yes, Sister Sin pulling the 'Is this some kind of bust?' joke on an unsuspecting Rainbow Warrior.
Insectum7 wrote: Do Sisters Drop Pod? I thought that was a uniquely Space Marine thing. Or are they slower Pods or something?
In Faith and Fire, the Sisters do use some sort of drop pod to make a ship boarding operation to retrieve an escaped alpha psyker prisonner. The ship captain targetted who was boarded numerous time by navy troopers and Arbites was surprised and scared by the speed and efficiency of the Sisters. This seems to indicate that if they don't have drop pods like Space Marines they at least have boarding pods and are extremly good at their usage.
See, this is me giving a source, rather than just giving my opinion.
Although your quote does say that only better-than-standard equipped Sisters and specially selected Sisters from elite Celestians and Dominians, with possible Seraphim support, do this. Meaning that a baseline Sister is not on par with a baseline Marine.
See, this is me giving a source, rather than just giving my opinion.
Although your quote does say that only better-than-standard equipped Sisters and specially selected Sisters from elite Celestians and Dominians, with possible Seraphim support, do this. Meaning that a baseline Sister is not on par with a baseline Marine.
They also do not purge the whole chapter, they assassinate the chapter master... A whole strike force for one marine.
Insectum7 wrote: Do Sisters Drop Pod? I thought that was a uniquely Space Marine thing. Or are they slower Pods or something?
The Citadel Journal link I gave point to an article about it, with a special army list for Adepta Sororitas Strike Forces. Complete with special profile for Sororitas drop pods.
Kayback wrote: Although your quote does say that only better-than-standard equipped Sisters and specially selected Sisters from elite Celestians and Dominians, with possible Seraphim support, do this. Meaning that a baseline Sister is not on par with a baseline Marine.
My quote says only better than standard equipped Sisters and specially selected Sisters from elite Celestians and Dominians, with possible Seraphim support, go after the rogue Chapter Master and his retinue. Meaning that a baseline Sister is not on par with the Chapter Master's personal retinue.
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endlesswaltz123 wrote: They also do not purge the whole chapter, they assassinate the chapter master... A whole strike force for one marine.
What do you think happens after the chapter master is dead? The rest of the marines are then given little commemorative gifts, and given position very high in the Inquisition?
You need to read up on your marine history. Marines have been allowed to penance campaign for past transgressions, including rebellion... Kill the command structure and that is probably the deal offered to the rest of the chapter, or they be fully purged. If it is the latter that is chosen then the sisters have a problem, as the chapter will now fully mobilise with all its kit.
i.e. it's going to take a lot more than a sisters order to bring them down, it would require substantial naval support and most likely would be left to another or more chapters.
Believe your own version of events because you want to champion the sisters if you want, but you are wrong, sisters do not compare.
A whole coordinated strike force of the best the Sisters have to offer led by an experienced Inquisitor often with support from the Imperial Navy and armed with better equipment than is usually permitted to them are able to kill a chapter master and his personal retinue (usually like three or four guys) in a surprise assault.
This is evidence that Sisters are, in fact, inferior to Astartes most of the time, which is frankly very evident from how the setting refers to them compared to how it refers to the Sisters.
The Sisters are generally the best human troops that can be fielded. But Astartes are not human. If a bolter penetrates the armour and shrapnel punctures the Sisters' heart, she will usually die. In hand to hand a Marine can easily overpower a Sister of Battle, and is quicker besides.
Void__Dragon wrote: A whole coordinated strike force of the best the Sisters have to offer led by an experienced Inquisitor often with support from the Imperial Navy and armed with better equipment than is usually permitted to them are able to kill a chapter master and his personal retinue (usually like three or four guys) in a surprise assault.
This is evidence that Sisters are, in fact, inferior to Astartes most of the time, which is frankly very evident from how the setting refers to them compared to how it refers to the Sisters.
The sisters strikeforce the example given doesn't seem to be any larger or better armed than the marine strike force box-set - as I said above it seems rather small to be pitched against something like a chapter master. And 'better equipped' in the context of the article is accurate in the sense that Celestians could take a heavy weapon in their squad, while batter sisters could not...
I wouldn't expect 20 tactical marines, 10 assault marines, and five scouts launched by drop-pod to be able to pull it off against someone like Calgar or Dante and their personal honour guard for example
We shouldn't use Calgar and Dante as examples to be honest, they are legendary chapter masters, they are a step above.
Your regular, average chapter master that doesn't have ancient relics and come from a first founding chapter is not going to be of that standard. Chapter masters from other chapters get killed in the fluff.
Nearly a quarter company of marines, depending on how they are equipped are going to be a problem for most other small group of space marines when descended upon as one force, irrespective of experience and equipment.
A quarter company of Marines getting the element of surprise against an unsupported Chapter Master and his most immediate retinue? Yeah, I can see the Chapter Master going down.
But the issue is getting that element of surprise, and taking out the Chapter Master before anyone else can come to their aid.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: A quarter company of Marines getting the element of surprise against an unsupported Chapter Master and his most immediate retinue? Yeah, I can see the Chapter Master going down.
Perhaps i'm too used to seeing the likes of chaptermaster smashfether on the table, and giving them too much credit for being indestructible killing machines that should go through a squad of sisters/marines like a tank over a speedbump.
Additionally, why attack when he is fully armoured up with his weapons of war, catch him in his quarters where he may not even be in power armour if you are lucky.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Additionally, why attack when he is fully armoured up with his weapons of war, catch him in his quarters where he may not even be in power armour if you are lucky.
I suspect it might be difficult to get the drop pod into his quarters :p
Depends on the fortress Monastry, ship, base they are in, they are all different. You would have thought the smart thing to do is be in the centre of mass of such a thing, but then you get no over the top stained glass to look out of.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Nearly all Fortress Monastaries are some of the most well-defended locations in the Imperium. It's not really as simple as "ah, just drop on in".
Tell that to the sisters champions who state this is a legit tactic, I'm on the marines side of things in this argument.
It goes to state though, marines are arrogant and fearless, they aren't going to shy away from the limelight out of fear of assassination.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Tell that to the sisters champions who state this is a legit tactic
Are these sisters champions stating this in another thread that the rest of us are unaware of?
The sisters purging marine chapters argument is a long standing one that comes up every year as 'evidence' sister are equal, if not better than marines... With the specific tactic of drop pod/teleport/seraphim diving through windows to assassinate a chapter master being the meat of it.
Is Melissa still about? She would be all over this...
endlesswaltz123 wrote: If it is the latter that is chosen then the sisters have a problem, as the chapter will now fully mobilise with all its kit.
i.e. it's going to take a lot more than a sisters order to bring them down, it would require substantial naval support and most likely would be left to another or more chapters.
Nah, Sisters have so much more resources than any given space marine chapter, they won't have trouble dealing with this. The real need for the strike force is to avoid marines fleeing and becoming renegades. Here, the chapter will be running around in confusion, fighting like a decapitated chicken would, with no idea who is in charge (the people in charge have been melta-ed to oblivion, remember) and why they are attacked. At this point you could finish the job with guardsmen really. And you can expect a lot of surrender (and, depending on the Inquisitor, a lot of non-lethal penance, like incorporation into another chapter or the Deathwatch too, since those are rank and file marines that are likely not as corrupt as those in the command structures), which will even further simplify matters.
Void__Dragon wrote: and armed with better equipment than is usually permitted to them are able to kill a chapter master
This bit is plain not true. All the wargear listed is always available to Sisters. The text just says that they take their best weapons with them. Usually you can expect a lot of basic Sisters armed with just a boltgun. Here they only take veteran Sisters with lots of special weapons. That's the idea behind a strike force. Concentration of power.
Void__Dragon wrote: to kill a chapter master and his personal retinue (usually like three or four guys)
Did we read the same text? The aim is to destroy the command structures, enough for it to “disable the entire organization”. That's not killing just the chapter master and his bodyguards. That's killing him, his second in command, and most of the captains. So, realistically, going through their bodyguards too. And the marines that just happens to be around.
That does not make sense though. Companies are fairly autonomous. Each have their own established commander, the first company captain will also immediately take up command, all these captains of each company are highly competent tacticians and strategists who will have most likely coordinated huge war efforts involving multiple companies. The sisters aren't killing all of them in that one strike.
Marines have lost their senior command structure in a day on a battlefield and have not fell apart, the next most senior captain takes up the mantle until a future chapter master can be elected.
Also, marines are smart, do you really think they have their WHOLE command structure in one place to be susceptible to such attacks? Multiple senior commanders will be in the fleet, some in warzones, and others spread throughout a vast fortress
You need to accept that this piece of fluff you are championing is flawed and makes little sense. Just like back flipping terminators etc.
I will accept they may have some success in taking out a chapter master, but the whole senior command structure and it somehow leaving marines like nids without synapse?
I'll give you an opportunity to explain a very really possibility at some point in the chapters future.... Ordo Hereticus discover the Dark Angels secret. They decide to send in the sisters to destroy them/eliminate the command structure. Explain exactly how they would achieve this... And You must bare in mind this should be possible (in your head) even though they are a fleet based chapter with huge resources due to being a first founding.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The sisters purging marine chapters argument is a long standing one that comes up every year as 'evidence' sister are equal, if not better than marines... With the specific tactic of drop pod/teleport/seraphim diving through windows to assassinate a chapter master being the meat of it.
In this particular case it was brought up as a counterpoint to "No Sister could ever complete the tasks that SM's view as routine or even menial." - and that specific tactic of drop pod headhunting was a reference to official material, with a page number and everything.
Sisters aren't quite on par because they lack the augmentation and their power armour is more simple compared to the marines; but if the marines weren't around the sisters would take their place as humanity's shock troops easily and have way better numbers for it. I guess their numbers could actually make up for it in some situations.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Tell that to the sisters champions who state this is a legit tactic
Are these sisters champions stating this in another thread that the rest of us are unaware of?
The sisters purging marine chapters argument is a long standing one that comes up every year as 'evidence' sister are equal, if not better than marines... With the specific tactic of drop pod/teleport/seraphim diving through windows to assassinate a chapter master being the meat of it.
Is Melissa still about? She would be all over this...
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Sisters have so much more resources than any given space marine chapter, they won't have trouble dealing with this.
Kinda, not really.
The Ecclesiarchy and Sisterhood as a whole? Absolutely. Probably more resources than all the Space Marines put together. But that's got to be distributed across the entire Ecclesiarchy, the entire Sisterhood, and not all those resources are necessarily combat related (a great deal are probably more educational and civic, given the Adepta Sororitas' increased role in civilian lives - unlike Space Marines, which are entirely dedicated to war).
So, a comparatively sized force of Sisters probably wouldn't have the same war materiel as a full Astartes Chapter.
The real need for the strike force is to avoid marines fleeing and becoming renegades.
Well, and the terrifying amount of firepower and equipment a Fortress-Monastery has. But, yes, after taking down the Chapter Master, it would essential to bring the Marines to heel under Imperial authority - and specifically IMPERIAL, not Ecclesiarchical. An Inquisitor, for example.
Here, the chapter will be running around in confusion, fighting like a decapitated chicken would, with no idea who is in charge (the people in charge have been melta-ed to oblivion, remember) and why they are attacked.
Yeah nah. That's not Marines.
The only cases I've heard of Marines "running around in confusion" are cases of the Night Lords and Alpha Legion (masters of deception and asymmetrical warfare), Daemonic incursions (and that's not even guaranteed) and things like a well-executed Necron uprising. The Marine command structure is rather robust, and Astartes are more than capable of operating under a collapsing command structure. Want to hurt a Chapter badly? Don't go for their leaders - go for their Apothecaries.
The Celestial Lions didn't have their leaders targeted by "Ork snipers" - their Apothecaries were, and THEN their leaders were hit - and they still were able to rally behind a Veteran Sergeant.
Also, "all the people in charge melta'd to oblivion", so you've rounded up all the various leaders of the Chapter with pinpoint accuracy, no matter how deeply burrowed into their fortress, all their Reclusiam, Librarius, senior Techmarines and Apothecaries, without ever giving away your mere arrival in system, and drop podding exactly where you need to be? Sorry, I call BS on that - and I'd call the same on literally any faction doing that. The only ones realistically capable of that I'd say are the Assassinorum, Necron Deathmarks, and maybe a concerted effort from the Alpha Legion. Not Marines, not Sisters.
Forgive me if I missed it, but what modern lore supports Sisters being able to do what you've described above?
I'd like to draw attention to the extract from the (very very old) source you've provided, which specifies that the Sisters attack the "renegade Chapter Master and his attendant brethren" - not the entire Captaincy.
Since someone bugged me to look at this post... the "sisters purging space marines" lore is from the Rogue Trader era, so take from that what you will-- of anything outside of the ancient RT lore with the infamous "Sister Sin" entry, Sisters rarely fight Space Marines to my memory, and usually it ends badly for both sides of the conflict when it does happen (one of the few notable exceptions being when Chaos Marines attacked a Sororitas shrine world and were utterly defeated, but that battle was little more than a small blurb in a codex with no details on the amount of forces on each side).
As for the rest, I kinda find the idea of Sisters "assassinating" space marine captains to be ridiculous, not because it's outside of their capability, but because it's outside of their modus operandi-- if a force of Sisters had a problem enough with a space marine captain that they wanted him dead, I don't see assassination being the way they'd do it... more likely than not, marching up to him with an army at their back feels more appropriate.
At one point, Sisters did in fact have drop pod rules, but how canon they are is anyone's guess-- it was some kind of experimental rules in a white dwarf magazine, probably done more for coolness' sake than anything.
Also, I laugh at how people are taking my words to strawman-levels of ridiculousness. The only thing I argued is that veteran Sisters (IE not the average grunt Battle Sister squaddie) are capable of matching Space Marines in terms of combat skill, with the main advantage of a Space Marine over said veteran Sister being power and durability. Which is supported by both the in-game lore and the stats of the tabletop. Yet somehow this is being warped in to people claiming I was arguing some other nonsense? Grow up.
A.T. wrote: The sisters strikeforce the example given doesn't seem to be any larger or better armed than the marine strike force box-set - as I said above it seems rather small to be pitched against something like a chapter master. And 'better equipped' in the context of the article is accurate in the sense that Celestians could take a heavy weapon in their squad, while batter sisters could not...
I wouldn't expect 20 tactical marines, 10 assault marines, and five scouts launched by drop-pod to be able to pull it off against someone like Calgar or Dante and their personal honour guard for example
Neither would I, but then, Dante and Calgar are head shoulders and navels above generic renegade chapter masters by any stretch of imagination.
Ass Blaster the Chapter Master of the Raptor Crappers chapter doesn't walk around cutting Skarbrand in half or killing the Swarmlord in single combat.
Nah, Sisters have so much more resources than any given space marine chapter, they won't have trouble dealing with this.
I agree, Sisters need to beat a Marine chapter through attrition warfare and make use of the greater resources they can pool together to take out a single chapter, and given equal resources and numbers would be no match.
The real need for the strike force is to avoid marines fleeing and becoming renegades. Here, the chapter will be running around in confusion, fighting like a decapitated chicken would, with no idea who is in charge (the people in charge have been melta-ed to oblivion, remember) and why they are attacked.
You don't read much non-Sisters fluff, do you?
This bit is plain not true. All the wargear listed is always available to Sisters. The text just says that they take their best weapons with them. Usually you can expect a lot of basic Sisters armed with just a boltgun. Here they only take veteran Sisters with lots of special weapons. That's the idea behind a strike force. Concentration of power.
Right, which is to say better equipment than they normally would be using, because their standard equipment just won't cut it.
Did we read the same text? The aim is to destroy the command structures, enough for it to “disable the entire organization”. That's not killing just the chapter master and his bodyguards. That's killing him, his second in command, and most of the captains. So, realistically, going through their bodyguards too. And the marines that just happens to be around.
It says the chapter master and his attendant brethren, not every officer in charge of all ten companies that are all conspicuously in one place together.
I'm sorry that you pulling fluff that is older than I am to support your erroneous assertion that Sisters are as good as or better than Marines on an individual basis isn't working for you.
Melissia wrote: (one of the few notable exceptions being when Chaos Marines attacked a Sororitas shrine world and were utterly defeated, but that battle was little more than a small blurb in a codex with no details on the amount of forces on each side).
The San Leor Massacre
Unspecified elements of the Red Corsairs warband attacked by similarly unspecified forces from nine separate orders of sisters.
Given the context quite possibly hundreds or less of the chaos marines getting steamrolled by thousands or tens of thousands of angry sisters.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: So, a comparatively sized force of Sisters probably wouldn't have the same war materiel as a full Astartes Chapter.
Well, that's your opinion. Mine differ. The Sisters are some kind of vanity project for the Ecclesiarchy, and the Abbess has a seat as a High Lord of Terra. Which Cardinal is going to say “Let's diminish the budget of the Sororitas”? Especially given their role as inner affairs of the Ecclesiarchy? That Cardinal better have absolutely nothing in their closet that could be used against them…
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Well, and the terrifying amount of firepower and equipment a Fortress-Monastery has.
Why do y'all keep assuming this happens in the middle of the Fortress-Monastery?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The only cases I've heard of Marines "running around in confusion" are cases of the Night Lords and Alpha Legion (masters of deception and asymmetrical warfare), Daemonic incursions (and that's not even guaranteed) and things like a well-executed Necron uprising.
So, how many times have you read about Marines dealing with being attacked by Imperial forces they never suspected to be enemies, all while they found themselves unable to contact their leaders?
I'm sure if you gave them a few hours to regroup they would do fine. But the whole point is, you don't.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The Celestial Lions didn't have their leaders targeted by "Ork snipers" - their Apothecaries were, and THEN their leaders were hit - and they still were able to rally behind a Veteran Sergeant.
Yeah, they got plenty of time to do so.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Also, marines are smart, do you really think they have their WHOLE command structure in one place to be susceptible to such attacks?
Yes. The whole point is that they don't suspect such attack. We aren't talking about paranoid Dark Angels here. We are talking about a chapter that has slowly evolved in a way that some Inquisitor deal troubling, but that never had any official warning and don't suspect a thing.
They are holding a meeting in a secured zone, with lots of imperial forces around. It's as safe as can be, until the very ally they counted on for safety turn on them.
The Imperium is an unforgiving place.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: You need to accept that this piece of fluff you are championing is flawed and makes little sense.
Ah yes, I must discard official lore and go with your head cannon.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Ordo Hereticus discover the Dark Angels secret. They decide to send in the sisters to destroy them/eliminate the command structure. Explain exactly how they would achieve this...
Are you asking me to write you one, or maybe several, books of unofficial GW lore? I mean, this is so dependent on the specifics! What is the personality of the involved Inquisitor(s)? Who else is in the known?
I am not really here to write more fanfic, I'm looking at the official lore instead.
Melissia wrote: As for the rest, I kinda find the idea of Sisters "assassinating" space marine captains to be ridiculous, not because it's outside of their capability, but because it's outside of their modus operandi-- if a force of Sisters had a problem enough with a space marine captain that they wanted him dead, I don't see assassination being the way they'd do it... more likely than not, marching up to him with an army at their back feels more appropriate.
That's how they would do it on their own. But if they act at the request of an Inquisitor, they will follow the Inquisitor's modus operandi.
Melissia wrote: At one point, Sisters did in fact have drop pod rules, but how canon they are is anyone's guess-- it was some kind of experimental rules in a white dwarf magazine, probably done more for coolness' sake than anything.
Melissia I just linked to those rules a few messages above!
Citadel journal 59, p19, link above in the thread.
Void__Dragon wrote: Neither would I, but then, Dante and Calgar are head shoulders and navels above generic renegade chapter masters by any stretch of imagination.
Ass Blaster the Chapter Master of the Raptor Crappers chapter doesn't walk around cutting Skarbrand in half or killing the Swarmlord in single combat.
I find the 1rst founding adulation really tiring and boring.
Why would the marines from a 1rst founding chapter be better than those of a 22th founding? None of them were around during the heresy, and there is nothing in the recruitment process that makes more talented recruits join 1rst founding chapter. Not to talk about how absolutely terrible it is when a setting that should encourage creativity instead pushes on your that the official chapters are inherently better than your custom-made chapter. I hate it with a passion.
Void__Dragon wrote: Right, which is to say better equipment than they normally would be using, because their standard equipment just won't cut it.
Yeah, when going after the most senior marines with the best wargear available to their chapters, the Sisters also take their best wargear. I am at loss why you think this is a gotcha .
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Forgive me if I missed it, but what modern lore supports Sisters being able to do what you've described above?
Void__Dragon wrote: I'm sorry that you pulling fluff that is older than I am to support your erroneous assertion that Sisters are as good as or better than Marines on an individual basis isn't working for you.
Did you guys somehow miss how there was about 15 years with basically no new Sisters of Battle content? Of course the lore is going to be old, there is extremely few recent material…
Sgt_Smudge wrote: So, a comparatively sized force of Sisters probably wouldn't have the same war materiel as a full Astartes Chapter.
Well, that's your opinion. Mine differ. The Sisters are some kind of vanity project for the Ecclesiarchy, and the Abbess has a seat as a High Lord of Terra. Which Cardinal is going to say “Let's diminish the budget of the Sororitas”? Especially given their role as inner affairs of the Ecclesiarchy? That Cardinal better have absolutely nothing in their closet that could be used against them…
I'd have to agree with Smudge on this one. While the Ecclesiarchy has a lot of wealth there is a limit to what they can spend it on in terms of war material due to restrictions placed on them. The sisters simply aren't allowed to have military forces beyond fairly tightly defined limits (it took extended debate just for the repressor to be approved for use and that was basically an arbites rhino with a fire hose accessory).
Sisters don't get to have any kind of artillery beyond their limited number of exorcists, no aircraft or fleet support of their own, they have pretty much nothing that can meaningfully lay a siege nor do they have any really heavy linebreaker forces.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: So, a comparatively sized force of Sisters probably wouldn't have the same war materiel as a full Astartes Chapter.
Well, that's your opinion. Mine differ. The Sisters are some kind of vanity project for the Ecclesiarchy, and the Abbess has a seat as a High Lord of Terra. Which Cardinal is going to say “Let's diminish the budget of the Sororitas”? Especially given their role as inner affairs of the Ecclesiarchy? That Cardinal better have absolutely nothing in their closet that could be used against them…
And what about all the other branches of the High Lords who see the Ecclesiarchy massing huge amounts of power and wealth? They're just going to let that happen?
Plus, let's not forget the Ecclesiarchy budget needs to handle things like cathedral construction, relief aid, relic acquisition. Not to mention that the Sisters of Battle, the actual models on the tabletop, are a fraction of the actual Adepta Sororitas, which in itself is a fraction of the Ecclesiarchy. Unlike Space Marines, which, despite having less wealth and resources on the whole, don't have to share that with non-combatant arms of their organisation.
(Also, just to correct you, the Abbess and Cardinals of the Synod aren't guaranteed seats. And, if we're talking current timeline, I expect a lot of Ecclesiarchical power is curtailed by Guilliman.)
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Well, and the terrifying amount of firepower and equipment a Fortress-Monastery has.
Why do y'all keep assuming this happens in the middle of the Fortress-Monastery?
Because that's where a Chapter Master spends the most of his time? If you're going to assume a Space Marine is anywhere, it's either on their own ships, or their Fortress-Monastary, same as I'd expect a Canoness to be on a Shrine World with a big old war cathedral base of operation.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The only cases I've heard of Marines "running around in confusion" are cases of the Night Lords and Alpha Legion (masters of deception and asymmetrical warfare), Daemonic incursions (and that's not even guaranteed) and things like a well-executed Necron uprising.
So, how many times have you read about Marines dealing with being attacked by Imperial forces they never suspected to be enemies, all while they found themselves unable to contact their leaders?
Quite frankly, I haven't heard that many stories about that very thing happening, and in the very few where things like that happen, they tend to regroup incredibly well (Battle of Calth and the Celestial Lions situation).
In fact, yeah, let's talk Battle of Calth. Entire comms darkness, the first ever betrayal of one Space Marine to another (at least, to the Ultramarines' perspective), en masse daemonic incursions and the entire orbital array going down. Word Bearers had every advantage afforded to them. Guilliman was vented into space, and all Ultramarines on the ground were fighting blind.
They still fought back and won.
I'm sure if you gave them a few hours to regroup they would do fine. But the whole point is, you don't.
Ask the Word Bearers how that went.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The Celestial Lions didn't have their leaders targeted by "Ork snipers" - their Apothecaries were, and THEN their leaders were hit - and they still were able to rally behind a Veteran Sergeant.
Yeah, they got plenty of time to do so.
And what makes you think that Vindicare Assassins would be "*worse* at the whole destabilising command thing than Sisters? Because that's what you're implying.
Hell, if Sisters are so good at this, why bother with Assassins? Because apparently they can wipe out an entire Chapter's captaincy in the middle of their Fortress-Monastery better than the Officio Assassinorum can.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Also, marines are smart, do you really think they have their WHOLE command structure in one place to be susceptible to such attacks?
Yes. The whole point is that they don't suspect such attack.
Because Chapters aren't notoriously self-reliant and just happily accept random ships appearing over their homeworld with no questions asked?
The moment ships translate past the Mandeville point on their homeworld (unless some kind of psychic obscuring is going on - can't imagine Sisters would be too keen on that), the Marines will be noticing. Sure, it's another Imperial ship - but they're in Chapter space, without prior warning.
We aren't talking about paranoid Dark Angels here. We are talking about a chapter that has slowly evolved in a way that some Inquisitor deal troubling, but that never had any official warning and don't suspect a thing.
But they must have done SOMETHING to warrant this force to take them to heel. Chapters don't get censured for nothing. So, the moment they've done whatever can be considered heretical or censure-worthy, they'd be on high alert.
Also, regarding the "no official warning" - the Astral Claws were given more than enough warning. All of the Abyssal Crusade Chapters were given warning. Chapters aren't just blacklisted and assumed bad - there's usually SOME degree of "hey, dude, what's going on" before gloves are taken off.
They are holding a meeting in a secured zone, with lots of imperial forces around. It's as safe as can be, until the very ally they counted on for safety turn on them.
The Imperium is an unforgiving place.
Again, this is a Chapter that must have done something to raise the ire of the Imperium. They'd be folly not to be aware of that, and have some suspicion. As you say - it's an unforgiving place.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: You need to accept that this piece of fluff you are championing is flawed and makes little sense.
Ah yes, I must discard official lore and go with your head cannon.
Is lore older than many players still "official" when it's not backed up anywhere else?
All I'm saying is if it was THAT important to the Sisters' identity, it'd be in the most recent Codex. Which it might be, I don't own it!
Melissia wrote: At one point, Sisters did in fact have drop pod rules, but how canon they are is anyone's guess-- it was some kind of experimental rules in a white dwarf magazine, probably done more for coolness' sake than anything.
Melissia I just linked to those rules a few messages above!
Citadel journal 59, p19, link above in the thread.
Yeah - experimental rules in a super old journal.
How canon is that, exactly? Is it canon like how the Ultramarines have a half-Eldar Librarian? Or that Guilliman is still in a stasis field?
Why would the marines from a 1rst founding chapter be better than those of a 22th founding?
Resources, political clout, purer geneseed, and in certain cases, Chapters can "swap" members or reinforce a weakened First Founder in their time of need.
That's not me saying that First Founders HAVE to be better then their successors, but the deck is stacked in their favour. They may have better educators, better resources to train their troops, a stronger logistical network - these things won't change raw innate talent, but they make a hell of a difference.
For examples of rather powerful Chapters who aren't First Founders, see the Minotaurs, who can boast of having favour near to the High Lord of Terra. And look at the Feast of Blades, the duelling contest held by the Imperial Fists and their successors - if I'm not mistaken, the only two-time victor wasn't even an Imperial Fist, they were an Iron Knight.
But, this is 40k too, where simply being a rank higher makes you tougher and more accurate for some reason.
Did you guys somehow miss how there was about 15 years with basically no new Sisters of Battle content? Of course the lore is going to be old, there is extremely few recent material…
But you'd think if it was THAT important and relevant to their lore, it'd be mentioned when they *did* get new content in a brand new model line and Codex?
All I'm saying is, if it wasn't mentioned again, was it *really* that critical to their operating function?
Now, in spite of all that, I'm not saying for a second that Sisters *can't* pull off these "bring the Astartes to heel" missions. They're incredibly talented. But, that's not to say they're the ONLY ones capable of it, or even the best at it. The best, I'd say, are the Assassinorum. However, they're damn rare and unlikely to be deployed, given their scarcity.
I'd then say another Astartes Chapter - but if it's a matter of something like, say, a violation of the Imperial Creed or the Ecclesiarchy's edicts, why would a Space Marine Chapter risk their own necks for the Church?
That's where Sisters come in. They have no major allegiances outside of the Church, and so, if the Church believe the Marines to be acting out of line, that's all the proof they need. They're the CHURCHES' hit-squad, not the Imperium's as a whole, but are more reliable to actually act in the Imperium's interest, or that of an Inquisitor.
I wouldn't say they're the best at what they do. But they are the most willing to see it done.
Can I just ask, is there any official cannon that states elimination of a Chapter Master of an imperial SM force has to be handled by any sort of imperial assasination team? I am not sure but I thought in one of the assassin books it talks about how the entire High Lords have to have a unanimous vote on the use of a Space Marine force. Or at least Gman has to approve it. Which is why it was heretical that the Minotaurs were used on terra, because it violated the decree. To assasinate a Chapter Master I would think at least the Administratum, and the officio assasinorum would need to sanction it. I don't believe the Echliesiarchy gets to just willy nilly decide to take out SM chapter Masters on their own say so.
Space marine chapters are autonomous, they can choose to engage in conflicts as they please. However, there are usually thousands of year old decrees and agreements that they will defend certain areas, or have alliances with other chapters etc etc etc
A space marine chapter cannot be 'forced' to do anything, even repent for transgressions, but they can be judged to be destroyed. The high lords can request specific chapters involvement but the 'choice' the marine chapter has is but a formality, as to not appease the high lords they will be in their bad books i.e. celestial lions.
Technically an inquisitor can requisition space marine chapters/assets however it is similar to the high lords, whereas is it is an order by everything but name. It is presented as a request by the inquisitor to not tarnish he honour of the chapter, however it is a direct order. The marines involvement in the actions can still be fairly autonomous though and not complimentary to the inquisitors goals in some circumstances (The Dark Angels actions on Vrakks being a prime example). It's also why certain chapters are given a wide birth by the inquisition and would not be requisitioned unless other options were not available. Namely the space wolves who have a long standing feud with inquisitors, or for the past/potential actions of the marines in the warzone being more harm than good (Flesh Tearers, Marines Malevolent etc).
In old fluff, the high lords all had to agree to sanction the use of assassins, but in more recent fluff, sanctioning an assassin operation is formally still with the high lords, but pre-approval is given to some certain individuals, like lord inquisitors.
Space marines are supposed to be restricted in what they can do as well though.
The Horus heresy specifically showed the danger of marines having total access to all levels of warfare if they happen to go rogue.
They aren't supposed to have true artillery or aircraft, nor mainline fleet assets for fleet engagement (barges and strike cruisers are ground assault craft rather than fleet attack ships).
Of course, GW keeps ignoring this to sell more marine models, but it's not like sisters are the only ones supposed to be restricted in what they can deploy.
That fluff has always been a bit skewed though, their fleet is 'designed' to support ground engagements and boarding actions. They also are one of a very few factions in the Imperium that have access to and free sanction of exterminatus weaponry. To aid ground engagements and boarding actions the fleet is ver well armoured... They aren't meant to be good at fleet engagements but due to the requirements to be an expeditionary force, they are good at them (not the best though).
You are mistaken on the aircraft front I believe also, and the artillery. It's not that marines aren't allowed them, their form of combat didn't cater to them... Heavy artillery requires huge logistics and supply chains as well as being fairly static... That's not the marines MO, it's also the fleets role to provide artillery support to marines. Also, their lack of aircraft in earlier fluff was not due to restriction, it was more due to the versatility of the thunderhawk, it was a true multirole aircraft, and whilst it may seem ridiculous that it had an air superiority role, most aircraft back then were massive also so it wasn't all too out of place size wise.
Officially, they do not have their own space superiority fleet, though, they are good at space battles also at a push.
Well, one big restriction is travel. The Space Marines cannot "Requisition" imperial naval fleets, without incredible pushback by the administratum. They can't bring titans to bear without the Admech. They can't "take"psychers without the sanction of the lex. They are restricted in multiple ways. I am just pointing out that Assassins require high clearance to use, I am assuming their purpose "assasinations" requires some level of clearance as well. Again, every time the Echliesiarchy does something on their own volition it goes terribly wrong and ends badly. I don't think the sisters assassinating a chapter master would be "sanctioned" without extreme evidence.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And what about all the other branches of the High Lords who see the Ecclesiarchy massing huge amounts of power and wealth? They're just going to let that happen?
I just don't believe that they are invited to give their opinion on how the Ecclesiarchy designs their budget. If the Ecclesiarchy wants to spend three times the amount of money of a standard melta gun, so that their Sisters get slightly superior melta guns than what marines get, the Mechanicus won't care, they get the money. The Inquisition won't care, that won't create a power imbalance. The Guard won't care, it's just better guns for people on their side. The Administratum just won't care.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Also, just to correct you, the Abbess and Cardinals of the Synod aren't guaranteed seats.
Yeah, just regular ones. With the Ecclesiarch being a permanent one. Still.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Because that's where a Chapter Master spends the most of his time? If you're going to assume a Space Marine is anywhere, it's either on their own ships, or their Fortress-Monastary, same as I'd expect a Canoness to be on a Shrine World with a big old war cathedral base of operation.
Are we talking about the same 40k? How often do those guys end up on a battlefield? I'd say, a lot. Unlike legendary Imperial Guard commanders.
So my fluff is too old, but you are going to bring up 10 000 years old fluff . We are not talking about purging a legion, we are talking about purging a chapter.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And what makes you think that Vindicare Assassins would be "*worse* at the whole destabilising command thing than Sisters? Because that's what you're implying. […] Hell, if Sisters are so good at this, why bother with Assassins? Because apparently they can wipe out an entire Chapter's captaincy in the middle of their Fortress-Monastery better than the Officio Assassinorum can.
Oh, you can bet your ass that if the Inquisitor has access to some Assassins, they will use them on the chapter master. If they only have access to Sisters of Battle, they will use the Sisters of Battle. If they have access to both, they will use both. Did you read the actual army list? It specifically allows for a Vindicare or a Culexus assassin!! And the only thing that would make Sisters better here, is availability. What good is an assassin being more efficient if you can't secure one in the first place. However, if given the choice between Sisters of Battle or Space Marines, they will usually chose Sisters of Battle, for the reason given in the Citadel Journal article.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But they must have done SOMETHING to warrant this force to take them to heel. Chapters don't get censured for nothing. So, the moment they've done whatever can be considered heretical or censure-worthy, they'd be on high alert.
Because they think they did that unnoticed, and it was a long time ago? I don't know man, are you trying to get me to write an actual novel?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Also, regarding the "no official warning" - the Astral Claws were given more than enough warning. All of the Abyssal Crusade Chapters were given warning. Chapters aren't just blacklisted and assumed bad - there's usually SOME degree of "hey, dude, what's going on" before gloves are taken off.
Different Inquisitors handle different situations differently. Like, VERY differently. The range of possible reaction is enormous. But “create a trap for the Chapter command structure, and kill them all using Sisters of Battle drop pod attack, and then recycle or exterminate the rest of the chapter with the help of the huge forces you just requisitioned” doesn't seems out of character for one of the least tolerant Inquisitor, does it?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: All I'm saying is if it was THAT important to the Sisters' identity, it'd be in the most recent Codex. Which it might be, I don't own it! […]But you'd think if it was THAT important and relevant to their lore, it'd be mentioned when they *did* get new content in a brand new model line and Codex?
All I'm saying is, if it wasn't mentioned again, was it *really* that critical to their operating function?
It's never been my claim that this was THAT important to the Sisters' identity. Being sometime requisitioned by Inquisitor for this specific part isn't a big part of the Sisters identity. It is, however, a good example that “No Sister could ever complete the tasks that SM's view as routine or even menial.” is wrong, with Sisters completing a task that most space marines would consider an extremely dangerous endeavor.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: How canon is that, exactly? Is it canon like how the Ultramarines have a half-Eldar Librarian? Or that Guilliman is still in a stasis field?
Unlike both, it's not in contradiction to any newer fluff, is it? Beside, if you ask me, Guilliman is still in a stasis field. I'm not interested at all with anything that relates to after he was woken out, I hate this development and do my best to ignore it.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Resources, political clout, purer geneseed[…]They may have better educators, better resources to train their troops, a stronger logistical network - these things won't change raw innate talent, but they make a hell of a difference.
Because of a difference of sometime a few hundreds years, and still present after 10 000 years? I don't think that makes sense, AND I dislike it (which are two very different things, I admit ^^).
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But, that's not to say they're the ONLY ones capable of it, or even the best at it.
That's never been something I claimed. My reading of the Citadel Journal article is that the main reason they use Sisters is because Space Marines have a loyalty problem.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I'd then say another Astartes Chapter - but if it's a matter of something like, say, a violation of the Imperial Creed or the Ecclesiarchy's edicts, why would a Space Marine Chapter risk their own necks for the Church?
Again, like Melissia, I don't think that's how the Ecclesiarchy would operate on their own. They are more of a “Bring overbearing force, kill their dudes, salt the earth, build massive pyres for everyone you manage to capture alive who is vaguely related to them” Have you looked at the actual army list²? It FORCES you to take an Inquisitor as HQ.
endlesswaltz123 wrote:Space marine chapters are autonomous, they can choose to engage in conflicts as they please. However, there are usually thousands of year old decrees and agreements that they will defend certain areas, or have alliances with other chapters etc etc etc
A space marine chapter cannot be 'forced' to do anything, even repent for transgressions, but they can be judged to be destroyed. The high lords can request specific chapters involvement but the 'choice' the marine chapter has is but a formality, as to not appease the high lords they will be in their bad books i.e. celestial lions.
Technically an inquisitor can requisition space marine chapters/assets however it is similar to the high lords, whereas is it is an order by everything but name. It is presented as a request by the inquisitor to not tarnish he honour of the chapter, however it is a direct order. The marines involvement in the actions can still be fairly autonomous though and not complimentary to the inquisitors goals in some circumstances (The Dark Angels actions on Vrakks being a prime example). It's also why certain chapters are given a wide birth by the inquisition and would not be requisitioned unless other options were not available. Namely the space wolves who have a long standing feud with inquisitors, or for the past/potential actions of the marines in the warzone being more harm than good (Flesh Tearers, Marines Malevolent etc).
In old fluff, the high lords all had to agree to sanction the use of assassins, but in more recent fluff, sanctioning an assassin operation is formally still with the high lords, but pre-approval is given to some certain individuals, like lord inquisitors.
endlesswaltz123 wrote:That fluff has always been a bit skewed though, their fleet is 'designed' to support ground engagements and boarding actions. They also are one of a very few factions in the Imperium that have access to and free sanction of exterminatus weaponry. To aid ground engagements and boarding actions the fleet is ver well armoured... They aren't meant to be good at fleet engagements but due to the requirements to be an expeditionary force, they are good at them (not the best though).
You are mistaken on the aircraft front I believe also, and the artillery. It's not that marines aren't allowed them, their form of combat didn't cater to them... Heavy artillery requires huge logistics and supply chains as well as being fairly static... That's not the marines MO, it's also the fleets role to provide artillery support to marines. Also, their lack of aircraft in earlier fluff was not due to restriction, it was more due to the versatility of the thunderhawk, it was a true multirole aircraft, and whilst it may seem ridiculous that it had an air superiority role, most aircraft back then were massive also so it wasn't all too out of place size wise.
Officially, they do not have their own space superiority fleet, though, they are good at space battles also at a push.
The space marine's native artillery groups were stripped during the breaking of the legion because the reorganization and re-envisioning of their role in the Imperium's military evaluated tube artillery wasn't required for them to perform it. However, the envisioning of their role and the breaking of the legions was primarily to limit the power and capability of the Space Marines as an organization, so indirectly tube artillery is banned to them to keep them deliberately less capable than the Imperial Guard.
The Sisters are probably competing only with the AdMech for being the strongest military organization in the Imperium because of their general exemption from the various policies that were set in place at the end of the Heresy to deliberately cripple the other branches.
Space Marines are a self-contained expeditionary task group designed to be logistically light to operate, with integrated fleet and air support, who can use their superior density of offensive power to prove decisive at the center of gravity of an operation. However, they're also limited in numbers and severely restricted in what types of equipment they have access to so that they can't do anything else. They're good at mobile warfare, but taking and holding ground isn't really in the cards with only 1000 men. And with limited access to key capabilities, they're not sufficient versatile in the types of operations they can efficiently undertake. Should a Space Marine chapter go rogue or stage a coup, they wouldn't get very far beyond their immediate homeworld power base, and even for the largest, they'd be forced by the Guard and Navy to fight on far more fronts than they can wage a war on so even if they win in one place the Guard won in every other one.
The Imperial Guard has the strength and equipment to effect a planetary conquest on it's own, but is logistically heavy to operate and not a self-contained strike package. It's wholly dependent upon the Imperial Navy for supply, transport, and air support. Each regiment is also overspecialized in the vein of late 20's and 30's ideas about armored formations, to prevent both single IG regiments from being effective alone. If an IG army group were to go rogue or attempt a coup, it would be stranded and unsupplied of war materiel by the Imperial Navy and methodically dismantled from the top by the Space Marines with surgical strikes against it's leadership until it's forced to surrender.
The Imperial Navy has superior capital warships [supposedly, according to the lore, since SM are barred from mounting lance batteries], but have limited surface strike capacity since they can't mount bombardment cannons and have to rely on bombers and fighters. In addition, they have no native landing troops , so they can't effect a planetary conquest in their own right. If a Navy Task Force were to go rogue or attempt a coup, it would find itself unable to take any ground from the Imperial Guard and be limited in its ability to resupply short of raiding, and be run down by the Space Marines.
However, on the other hand, the Sisters we created far later and by the Ecclesiarchy, the single most powerful organization in the Imperium who is defacto bound by no rules, to serve as personal troops and enforcers. By not being there during the breaking of the Imperial military, they're effectively passed over in the ancient accords that divided and crippled the other three military organizations. The treaty that supposedly limits their power bans them from existing, so it obviously has no teeth since both the clout of the Ecclesiarchy, good standing of their founding saints, and general heritage basically says they get to ignore that. A Sisters order controls it's own industrial sites [that was the whole deal with the Exorcist back when blast weapons were blasts and having random shots was because they weren't manufactured and maintained by the AdMech], their troops are very elite and well equipped and can undertake any operational assignment a Space Marine expeditionary force could, and they have Legion strength or greater to wage full scale war indigenously. And IIRC as per the newest codex, though it isn't on me to confirm, they also have Order Fleets, though they're not technically supposed to, but they're not really supposed to be a full scale military force anyway so like it's not like they care. And even before that they had ships that were officially Navy but unofficially theirs in the novels.
Their only real equal-capability organization is the Ad Mech, who has the advantage of more and officially sanctioned ships, [and better working stuff since their engineers have actual relevant training], but somewhat lower quality of troops and not having the same political power that the Ecclesiarchy has.
Much like a forge world going traitor en-masse is really bad for the Imperium, a Sisters order going rogue en-masse would be a far worse problem than a Guard, Marines, or Navy task group going rogue.
As far as the Space Marine's political power goes, they're de jure outranked by other Imperial organizations but de facto they're effectively independent organizations - limited by their standing and heritage and connections. The Space Wolves can do whatever they want: they're a first founding chapter of great reknown, there's nothing that anyone can do and if a Space Wolf asks you do do something he has the practical level of support that you really should go along, even if an Inquisitor has de jure power over them. A Lamenter on the other hand, doesn't really have the clout to contest, so they'd be subject to whetever edicts the Inquisition or High Lords might enforce on them.
Examples:
IF Giant Floating Death Palace that took out a Blackstone Fortress(Can't remember the name)
Minotaurs have Daedulus Crata, which is basically the same thing but made pre-HH and is even bigger than the IF one.
Gman's personal ship has lance batteries.
The Claw of Russ has Lance batteries, or had. It's toast now.
Actually Here: Anything Battleship or above has Lance batteries.
heh, nvm. (was posting about the Nova Class Frigate)
I think we can assume that Space Marines have Lance capability in a ground support function, since obviously they appear in 40K and in Epic in the past. But ground support Lances can be very different from anti-capital-ship Lances that are meant to engage targets at hundreds of thousands of kilometers, the ranges in which BFG operates.
Examples:
IF Giant Floating Death Palace that took out a Blackstone Fortress(Can't remember the name)
Minotaurs have Daedulus Crata, which is basically the same thing but made pre-HH and is even bigger than the IF one.
Gman's personal ship has lance batteries.
The Claw of Russ has Lance batteries, or had. It's toast now.
Actually Here: Anything Battleship or above has Lance batteries.
Yeah. the Nova is the only ship authorized to carry Lances in the TO&E of Space Marines post legion-breaking.
However, Space Marine Chapter did get to retain ships from before the breaking of the legion, and unlike the Mogami-class cruisers, nobody was planning to convert them when they were laid down, so old SM ships may also have lances.
Going by BFG rules the Bombardment Cannon is better than a lance weapon, and every SM capital ship is loaded with those. There's also the aforementioned Nova and the Firestorm (Astartes fleets do field Navy frigates with Astartes crew).
Examples:
IF Giant Floating Death Palace that took out a Blackstone Fortress(Can't remember the name)
Minotaurs have Daedulus Crata, which is basically the same thing but made pre-HH and is even bigger than the IF one.
Gman's personal ship has lance batteries.
The Claw of Russ has Lance batteries, or had. It's toast now.
Actually Here: Anything Battleship or above has Lance batteries.
This is great, also do you have a source for those statement you made and then didn't back up? What about those Custodes slaughtering Sisters of Battle during the Age of Blood?
This is great, also do you have a source for those statement you made and then didn't back up? What about those Custodes slaughtering Sisters of Battle during the Age of Blood?
This is great, also do you have a source for those statement you made and then didn't back up? What about those Custodes slaughtering Sisters of Battle during the Age of Blood?
Also, I can't find any lexicanum articles about it, but "lance batteries" are described in Watchers of the throne:Reagent's shadow as all over the Daedalus Crata and Phalanx.
A.T. wrote: Sisters don't get to have any kind of artillery beyond their limited number of exorcists, no aircraft or fleet support of their own, they have pretty much nothing that can meaningfully lay a siege nor do they have any really heavy linebreaker forces.
I would be very careful with such argument. Sisters of Battle don't have flyers or other artillery than the Exorcist, no superheavy, etc because they were left to rot for 15 years and GW just now gave them a breath of life. They didn't use to have power sword wielding jump pack equipped troops, now they do. In two years, GW might give the Sisters retroactively every single tool you just mentionned. Space Marines didn't used to have centurion armors or anti-air tanks or flyers before 6th eddition and now they do.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And what about all the other branches of the High Lords who see the Ecclesiarchy massing huge amounts of power and wealth? They're just going to let that happen?
I just don't believe that they are invited to give their opinion on how the Ecclesiarchy designs their budget. If the Ecclesiarchy wants to spend three times the amount of money of a standard melta gun, so that their Sisters get slightly superior melta guns than what marines get, the Mechanicus won't care, they get the money. The Inquisition won't care, that won't create a power imbalance. The Guard won't care, it's just better guns for people on their side. The Administratum just won't care.
Sorry, where's all this "Sisters have superior meltaguns" coming from?
Also, the other HLOT don't get a say on HOW the Ecclesiarchy spend their budget, but very much might get a say on how much budget the Ecclesiarchy get, or, more importantly, how much power they're going to let the Church have before they intervene. And getting stronger weapons for your military? Sounds an awful lot like you could be starting a coup there.
Don't forget, all the other Lords want their organisation to have more power too.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Also, just to correct you, the Abbess and Cardinals of the Synod aren't guaranteed seats.
Yeah, just regular ones. With the Ecclesiarch being a permanent one. Still.
The Ecclesiarch whose primary concern isn't exactly on the Sisters, unlike the Abbess. Yes, the Sisters are his *militant* arm, but the Ecclesiarch is primarily concerned with the legions of preachers and cathedrals.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Because that's where a Chapter Master spends the most of his time? If you're going to assume a Space Marine is anywhere, it's either on their own ships, or their Fortress-Monastary, same as I'd expect a Canoness to be on a Shrine World with a big old war cathedral base of operation.
Are we talking about the same 40k? How often do those guys end up on a battlefield? I'd say, a lot. Unlike legendary Imperial Guard commanders.
The question is can you find the right battlefield? Chapter Masters don't deploy as often as you think, and Space Marines in general aren't commonly in the practice of prolonged deployments, save for extenuating circumstances. Most Space Marine involvement will be conducted within a month, weeks even, and then off to another warzone to let everyone else clean up the mess.
So my fluff is too old, but you are going to bring up 10 000 years old fluff .
We are not talking about purging a legion, we are talking about purging a chapter.
And the Word Bearers attempted it with even more resources than the Sisters force you've been describing - still failed.
Besides, with what you've been claiming about Marines running around like headless chickens after their commander gets taken out, I'd have thought suppressing a Legion would be easier.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And what makes you think that Vindicare Assassins would be "*worse* at the whole destabilising command thing than Sisters? Because that's what you're implying.
[…]
Hell, if Sisters are so good at this, why bother with Assassins? Because apparently they can wipe out an entire Chapter's captaincy in the middle of their Fortress-Monastery better than the Officio Assassinorum can.
Oh, you can bet your ass that if the Inquisitor has access to some Assassins, they will use them on the chapter master. If they only have access to Sisters of Battle, they will use the Sisters of Battle. If they have access to both, they will use both.
Did you read the actual army list? It specifically allows for a Vindicare or a Culexus assassin!!
I did. Only, those aren't Sisters. I was talking about ACTUAL Sisters.
And the only thing that would make Sisters better here, is availability. What good is an assassin being more efficient if you can't secure one in the first place.
That's what I've been saying - the Sisters aren't *better*, they're just more common.
However, if given the choice between Sisters of Battle or Space Marines, they will usually chose Sisters of Battle, for the reason given in the Citadel Journal article.
I didn't really see a reason given, beyond "Sisters are easier to control". Which is what I've been claiming.
But, considering this whole thing seems to have been brought up to show how Sisters are supposedly equal to Marines, that's not a good look.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But they must have done SOMETHING to warrant this force to take them to heel. Chapters don't get censured for nothing. So, the moment they've done whatever can be considered heretical or censure-worthy, they'd be on high alert.
Because they think they did that unnoticed, and it was a long time ago? I don't know man, are you trying to get me to write an actual novel?
I mean, you're the one coming up with all the scenarios here.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Also, regarding the "no official warning" - the Astral Claws were given more than enough warning. All of the Abyssal Crusade Chapters were given warning. Chapters aren't just blacklisted and assumed bad - there's usually SOME degree of "hey, dude, what's going on" before gloves are taken off.
Different Inquisitors handle different situations differently.
Like, VERY differently. The range of possible reaction is enormous. But “create a trap for the Chapter command structure, and kill them all using Sisters of Battle drop pod attack, and then recycle or exterminate the rest of the chapter with the help of the huge forces you just requisitioned” doesn't seems out of character for one of the least tolerant Inquisitor, does it?
The hard part is setting the trap for the Chapter's command structure.
The most plausible effort I've seen has been what happened to the Celestial Lions - Vindicare Assassins, taking down the Chapter's lifeblood *mid-combat*.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: All I'm saying is if it was THAT important to the Sisters' identity, it'd be in the most recent Codex. Which it might be, I don't own it!
[…]But you'd think if it was THAT important and relevant to their lore, it'd be mentioned when they *did* get new content in a brand new model line and Codex?
All I'm saying is, if it wasn't mentioned again, was it *really* that critical to their operating function?
It's never been my claim that this was THAT important to the Sisters' identity. Being sometime requisitioned by Inquisitor for this specific part isn't a big part of the Sisters identity. It is, however, a good example that “No Sister could ever complete the tasks that SM's view as routine or even menial.” is wrong, with Sisters completing a task that most space marines would consider an extremely dangerous endeavor.
I'm not saying Sisters *can't* pull this stuff off. But I'm not agreeing that they're specifically the *best* force for it. They're chosen because they're more malleable to the orders of the Inquisition.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: How canon is that, exactly? Is it canon like how the Ultramarines have a half-Eldar Librarian? Or that Guilliman is still in a stasis field?
Unlike both, it's not in contradiction to any newer fluff, is it?
Beside, if you ask me, Guilliman is still in a stasis field. I'm not interested at all with anything that relates to after he was woken out, I hate this development and do my best to ignore it.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Resources, political clout, purer geneseed[…]They may have better educators, better resources to train their troops, a stronger logistical network - these things won't change raw innate talent, but they make a hell of a difference.
Because of a difference of sometime a few hundreds years, and still present after 10 000 years?
I don't think that makes sense, AND I dislike it (which are two very different things, I admit ^^).
I think it makes total sense, myself. Names carry power, in the real world, and in 40k.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But, that's not to say they're the ONLY ones capable of it, or even the best at it.
That's never been something I claimed. My reading of the Citadel Journal article is that the main reason they use Sisters is because Space Marines have a loyalty problem.
Agreed. But I also don't exactly think it's an easy task, or one that's even performed with any degree of regularity.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I'd then say another Astartes Chapter - but if it's a matter of something like, say, a violation of the Imperial Creed or the Ecclesiarchy's edicts, why would a Space Marine Chapter risk their own necks for the Church?
Again, like Melissia, I don't think that's how the Ecclesiarchy would operate on their own. They are more of a “Bring overbearing force, kill their dudes, salt the earth, build massive pyres for everyone you manage to capture alive who is vaguely related to them”
Have you looked at the actual army list? It FORCES you to take an Inquisitor as HQ.
Yeah - because it's forcing Inquistors and stuff, I personally am not so sure how far I'd class it as a Sisters of Battle force, and more of an Inquisitor's retinue force.
I mean, Chapters more closely tied to the Inquisition like the Exorcists and Minotaurs would also be more than capable of performing these missions.
TL;DR - I think there's a bit of disconnect here of exactly how important and how common it is for Sisters to attempt these missions.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: TL;DR - I think there's a bit of disconnect here of exactly how important and how common it is for Sisters to attempt these missions.
I don't think that the Inquisition or the High Lords of Terra really favor sending Space Marine Chapters to crush rebellious Space Marine Chapter (with the notable exception of the Minotaurs) for fear of further rebellion. Space Marines Chapters have been portrayed as being quite tribalistic and respect each other to a greater extand than any other institution of the Imperium. There are examples in the lore, most famous the Badab War, where Space Marines sent to crush rebellious bretheren refused to obey their orders and even turned coat to join the rebels in turn. If can't really count on Space Marines to take down other Space Marines, you are left with Sisters of Battle as the other next best option. They are incredibly unlikely to balk at the order of destroying a Space Marine Chapter compared to another Chapter.
I think that the space wolves were created by the big E to be his 'executioners' of any rebellious legions. They were sure sent to crush the thousand sons and prospero.
Matt Swain wrote: I think that the space wolves were created by the big E to be his 'executioners' of any rebellious legions. They were sure sent to crush the thousand sons and prospero.
Following the Horus Heresy though the Space Wolves haven't been sent on any such mission as far as I know. In fact, they were theatened to be purged on a few occasion themselves due to their "stubborness".
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Sorry, where's all this "Sisters have superior meltaguns" coming from?
It's an example of how the Ecclesiarchy's massive resources can be spent on Sisters of Battle budget.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Also, the other HLOT don't get a say on HOW the Ecclesiarchy spend their budget, but very much might get a say on how much budget the Ecclesiarchy get
What? The Ecclesiarchy levy its own taxes. And use the donation boxes too. Other High Lords don't have a say on that.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: or, more importantly, how much power they're going to let the Church have before they intervene. And getting stronger weapons for your military? Sounds an awful lot like you could be starting a coup there.
Now that's a stretch. If they were levying more troops at the same time, maybe. Just getting better wargear for the same troops? Not sounding like a coup.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The Ecclesiarch whose primary concern isn't exactly on the Sisters, unlike the Abbess. Yes, the Sisters are his *militant* arm, but the Ecclesiarch is primarily concerned with the legions of preachers and cathedrals.
The Sisters are just their biggest vanity project, but ok.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The question is can you find the right battlefield?
And the answer is “you would be a pretty poor Inquisitor if you couldn't”.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And the Word Bearers attempted it with even more resources than the Sisters force you've been describing - still failed.
Apples to orange, apples to oranges.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I did. Only, those aren't Sisters. I was talking about ACTUAL Sisters.
So, you saw the army list allowed for some assassins on top of Sisters, and you didn't stop to thing “Maybe the Inquisitor want to have both assassins and Sisters”? Weird but ok. But now you can think about the Inquisitor wanting Sisters and Assassins.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But, considering this whole thing seems to have been brought up to show how Sisters are supposedly equal to Marines, that's not a good look.
Yay revisionism. This whole thing have been brought to show how “No Sister could ever complete the tasks that SM's view as routine or even menial”.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I mean, you're the one coming up with all the scenarios here.
You are coming up with an awful amount of stuff too. Like saying that Chapter Masters spend all their time turtled up in Fortress Monastery, and then backtracking to their deployment zone being hard to find. Or touting the Celestian Lions as representing the standard way a chapter is purged, despite no similar events being described in the lore afaik.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The hard part is setting the trap for the Chapter's command structure.
Inquisitor can do hard stuff sometime maybe???
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I'm not saying Sisters *can't* pull this stuff off.
So you are in agreement that Sisters can “complete task that SM view as much more than routine, let alone menial”? Great, we are in agreement. Nice to know.
This power doesn't stand unchanging for millennia, though, and at some point some other name is going to catch up to yours.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Yeah - because it's forcing Inquistors and stuff, I personally am not so sure how far I'd class it as a Sisters of Battle force, and more of an Inquisitor's retinue force.
It's a “Ordo Hereticus Strike force”. That's the name of the list. It's comprised primarily of Sisters of Battle. The only non-SoB options are one unique inquisitor, and maybe some assassins.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I mean, Chapters more closely tied to the Inquisition like the Exorcists and Minotaurs would also be more than capable of performing these missions.
Certainly they are. The whole 2000 of them!
Sgt_Smudge wrote: TL;DR - I think there's a bit of disconnect here of exactly how important and how common it is for Sisters to attempt these missions.
I never claimed it was common. And the mission itself definitely is important, and the Sisters are usually the better choice available for it, but it's definitely not the raison d'être for Sisters of Battle, yes. But you are entirely losing focus on the reason why I brought this forward, somehow. Despite me quoting it again in the post you were answering. “No Sister could ever complete the tasks that SM's view as routine or even menial.” is just not true. I mean, the guy who posted that still hasn't acknowledged that he was wrong about Custodes slaughtering Sisters of Battle…
You are either delusional or trolling. You have taken a short scenario in a journal about sisters assassinating a chapter master and turned it into purging a whole chapter, with weapons so ornate and expensive, marines couldn't even get hold of them if they wanted to.
You will probably claim that is my head canon, but you are ignoring everything in recent fluff to suit your agenda and setting. That is head canon.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, chapter masters are sometimes equipped with the best of the best armour, weaponry as well as their body guards... What are the sisters going to do when the melta shot doesn't penetrate the iron halo/storm shields and the flames and bolts just roll off the artificer/terminator armour? Are they going to engage the chapter masters and his body guard in hand to hand combat?
And bare in mind, you are the one talking of taking out the chapter master when in a war zone, when they would be equipped in full armour etc, it is us that are stating the best way to do this would be catching them off guard...
Also typically if Ad Mech had 3x better meltaguns, for example, they would keep it for themselves. No amount of money would be able to pry the best machines from their cold mechanical fingers.
Exactly, there's planet sized vaults all over the galaxy with the most powerful artisan weaponry that the admech preserve and will never use because they are basically magpies. Ultimate hoarders.
Lastly, and this is the downfall of that argument. Do you think the Ecclesiarchy, the most arrogant and facist organisation in the imperium don't look down on and give the Ad Mech headaches about their faith in the omnissiah? Do you think the Ad Mech aren't going to take that into account when distributing weapons, no matter how much the buyer is willing to pay?
Yeah, they're keeping the best for themselves, and the next best goes to ordos of the inquisition (sisters are no longer the chamber militant of the hereticus and due to the omnissiah again, the hereticus is lower down the pecking order than others), certain marine chapters and guard regiments of certain forge worlds, then maybe the ecclesiarchies vanity project. Due to past transgressions by the ecclesiarchy, they probably have the administratum keep a very close eye on the tools of war they purchase... No one wants another Vandire.
Its honestly not accurate to say Sisters or Space marines are superior because both are different. Its like saying a boltgun is superior to a lasgun which is simply not true. There are strength's and weaknesses on the surface the boltgun is outright better...until you factor in cost, ammunition and durability and then its far more equal. You won't see the benefits of a lasgun in table top gaming but in the fluff its an extremely good weapon.
I would say we can safely say the Sisters are in the top elite of human troops. They stand up well to the Imperial guard elite and in most cases have superior gear.
Astartes are more like biological androids than humans, they are totally genetically rewritten to be like their primarch and and full of implants...so there is really nothing human about them, they don't even have proper human feelings. So comparing a bio-android to a human seems a unfair compareson.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Y
Also, chapter masters are sometimes equipped with the best of the best armour, weaponry as well as their body guards... What are the sisters going to do when the melta shot doesn't penetrate the iron halo/storm shields and the flames and bolts just roll off the artificer/terminator armour? Are they going to engage the chapter masters and his body guard in hand to hand combat?.
Well they are either going to send zephirim sisters armed with power swords or send a couple of repentia with evicerator chainsword designed to cut tanks appart or they are going to shoot at them some more. Yeah if the safest most efficient tactic doesn't work you try for plan B. The fact that Sisters can be used to purge rebellious chapter and have been succesful in the past doesn't mean they are always succesful either. Everybody loses a battle once in a while. An elite strike force of veteran Sisters of Battle armed with the best weapons their Order can provide under the leadership of a militant inquisitor and access to his resources and intelligence is certainly well adapted to launch an attack on a defiant Chapter Master and his close guard. In fact, you probably won't find anything better to do the task in the Imperium.
epronovost wrote: An elite strike force of veteran Sisters of Battle armed with the best weapons their Order can provide under the leadership of a militant inquisitor and access to his resources and intelligence is certainly well adapted to launch an attack on a defiant Chapter Master and his close guard. In fact, you probably won't find anything better to do the task in the Imperium.
Uh, Space Marines? Specifically the Space Wolves.
I mean we know this has been done before, more than once.
epronovost wrote: An elite strike force of veteran Sisters of Battle armed with the best weapons their Order can provide under the leadership of a militant inquisitor and access to his resources and intelligence is certainly well adapted to launch an attack on a defiant Chapter Master and his close guard. In fact, you probably won't find anything better to do the task in the Imperium.
Uh, Space Marines? Specifically the Space Wolves.
I mean we know this has been done before, more than once.
Except the Space Wolves are now distrusted by the Imperium authority and believed to be almost traitors. They were almost purged by the Sisters of Battle themselves, but the conflict was solved diplomatically and the SIsters withdrew from Fenris before the main thrust of their assault. The Space Wolves were then threatened several more time. You don't send a Chapter that walks on the fine edge between unorthodoxy and heresy to purge potential traitors and heretics.
As I mentionned before Space Marines are known to be more loyal to each other than the central administration of the Imperium, the Church of Mars or the Ecclesiarchy who have authority over what is or isn't treason or heresy. There is a chance that any Space Marine you send to quell another rebellious Space Marines will refuse to follow through with such an order due to ancient bonds and alliances that Chapters entertain with one another. With the exception of the Minautors, the High Lords of Terra don't especially trust Space Marines to fight other Space Marines unless they are Chaos Marines.
Except the Space Wolves are now distrusted by the Imperium authority and believed to be almost traitors. They were almost purged by the Sisters of Battle themselves, but the conflict was solved diplomatically and the SIsters withdrew from Fenris before the main thrust of their assault. The Space Wolves were then threatened several more time. You don't send a Chapter that walks on the fine edge between unorthodoxy and heresy to purge potential traitors and heretics.
You could if you offered them the opportunity to buy themselves back into good graces, almost like a Penal Legion.
I wasn't arguing that the SoB aren't used to censure errant Marines, the question was asked who, in the Imperium of Man, could fight better than SoB vs Marines. Other Marines.
I'm all for the Sisters being on par with the Marines because I love their models and have a (small) contingent in my home brew Chapter. Something something needed to maintain the Marine Chapels, something something rule of cool.
You could if you offered them the opportunity to buy themselves back into good graces, almost like a Penal Legion.
That would require admission of some guilt on their part and for them to step on their pride, their tradition and the bonds they have towad other Chapters and Space Marines. That's not the sort of things that is going to happen reliably. It also doesn't help that most unorthodix Space Marines Chapters, those most at risk of censure, aren't obviously "wrong" in their critique of the orthodoxy of the Imperium. The Sisters are defenders of that new orthodoxy and don't count many friends amongst Space Marines.
epronovost wrote:They were almost purged by the Sisters of Battle themselves
That's a hell of an exaggeration. The Sisters gave up after three weeks accomplishing very little, even after sending three order to bring them to heel.
You don't send a Chapter that walks on the fine edge between unorthodoxy and heresy to purge potential traitors and heretics.
No, you ask a Chapter which might have animosity against the Chapter you're trying to censure, or call in a Chapter who are known to be pro-Ecclesiarchy/Inquisitorial, or have favours to be called in.
Flesh Tearers? Unlikely. Red Hunters? Much more so.
With the exception of the Minautors, the High Lords of Terra don't especially trust Space Marines to fight other Space Marines unless they are Chaos Marines.
I think there's a difference between asking Marines to fight other Marines, and pointing Marines in the direction of more unorthodox brethren. After all - look how Badab turned out.
I don't think it's so much "Marines are more loyal to eachother than the Imperium" - because I think that "self loyalty" is to Marines of the same Chapter, not necessarily a random Chapter you've never met. I think it's more a case of "Marines don't like being told what to do, especially not to get tied up in an inter-Chapter war".
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I don't think it's so much "Marines are more loyal to eachother than the Imperium" - because I think that "self loyalty" is to Marines of the same Chapter, not necessarily a random Chapter you've never met. I think it's more a case of "Marines don't like being told what to do, especially not to get tied up in an inter-Chapter war".
Your position is fairly plausible and makes for a good distinction , but the result remains the same though. The central government of the Imperium still doesn't get what it wants reliably in that instence from Space Marines and are much better served by turning the the Sisters of Battle to obtain reliable result (in that instence the purge of a Chapter suspected of treason or heresy).
endlesswaltz123 wrote: You are either delusional or trolling. You have taken a short scenario in a journal about sisters assassinating a chapter master and turned it into purging a whole chapter, with weapons so ornate and expensive, marines couldn't even get hold of them if they wanted to.
You will probably claim that is my head canon, but you are ignoring everything in recent fluff to suit your agenda and setting. That is head canon.
Good points, except that is not what he said at all.
So, where where sisters of battle during the Badb war? the largest and most dangerous space Marine rebellion since the Horus Heresy, surely the Imperium would have used it's BEST solution to problem space marine chapters in that war. what did the IoM send? Space Marines.
Sisters will absolutely be used to fight Marines, of course they will but let's try not to build sisters up as the IoMs go to anti-marine force. there's simply no evidance of that. Now that said I imagine sisters are the go to force when they need someone willing to fight and kill marines for some bs political reason that no marine chapter would agree to (perhaps because it's a blatent violation of the independance of the Adeptus Astartes)
BrianDavion wrote:So, where where sisters of battle during the Badb war? the largest and most dangerous space Marine rebellion since the Horus Heresy, surely the Imperium would have used it's BEST solution to problem space marine chapters in that war. what did the IoM send? Space Marines.
Sisters will absolutely be used to fight Marines, of course they will but let's try not to build sisters up as the IoMs go to anti-marine force. there's simply no evidance of that. Now that said I imagine sisters are the go to force when they need someone willing to fight and kill marines for some bs political reason that no marine chapter would agree to (perhaps because it's a blatent violation of the independance of the Adeptus Astartes)
That's what I'm thinking too.
Again, a great deal of inter-Space Marine, and even just conflict against Space Marines from within the Imperium, comes nearly always from political reasons, not heresy. The Euxcine Incident, where the Minotaurs basically near exterminate two Chapters in one blow, has absolutely no heresy present at all in it - in fact, it's an arbitration matter which the Minotaurs completely overstep on.
To add more evidence to the "the Sisters aren't exactly the 'anti-marine' force" pile, I'd draw attention to the Watcher of the Throne series, where:
Spoiler:
a coup is hatched against Guilliman and his reforms allowing Custodes to be more active out-system, a coup which includes the former Ecclesiarch on the HLOT siding against Guilliman. Most notably, they don't call in Sisters of Battle to deploy en masse and consolidate power, but the Minotaurs Chapter instead - even though the Ecclesiarch certainly has the clout to call in PLENTY of Sisters if they so desired.
I'd love to remember where I read it, as it is official source, but when chapter transgressions are suspected, a council of five other chapter masters form to essentially put the chapter on trial and deliberate if the accusations are true and also an appropriate punishment if it is true.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: What are the sisters going to do when the melta shot doesn't penetrate the iron halo/storm shields and the flames and bolts just roll off the artificer/terminator armour?
Shot again, of course.
What a weird question.
And then maybe power maul or blessed weapons to the face.
Kayback wrote: I wasn't arguing that the SoB aren't used to censure errant Marines, the question was asked who, in the Imperium of Man, could fight better than SoB vs Marines. Other Marines.
Well, depends on the Sisters, and depends on the marines. Veteran Sisters with the best wargear and intel are going to fare much much better than scouts with no idea what they are going into, and similarly veterans marines with the best wargear and intel are going to do much better than some novice with no idea what they are going into.
And some chapters are going to be much better at it than other.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: What are the sisters going to do when the melta shot doesn't penetrate the iron halo/storm shields and the flames and bolts just roll off the artificer/terminator armour?
Shot again, of course.
What a weird question.
And then maybe power maul or blessed weapons to the face.
Kayback wrote: I wasn't arguing that the SoB aren't used to censure errant Marines, the question was asked who, in the Imperium of Man, could fight better than SoB vs Marines. Other Marines.
Well, depends on the Sisters, and depends on the marines. Veteran Sisters with the best wargear and intel are going to fare much much better than scouts with no idea what they are going into, and similarly veterans marines with the best wargear and intel are going to do much better than some novice with no idea what they are going into.
And some chapters are going to be much better at it than other.
In the semantics game I would refer to Scouts as Scouts or Marine Scouts, not "Marines".
BrianDavion wrote: So, where where sisters of battle during the Badb war? the largest and most dangerous space Marine rebellion since the Horus Heresy, surely the Imperium would have used it's BEST solution to problem space marine chapters in that war. what did the IoM send? Space Marines.
Well, during the Badab War, the Imperium send Space Marines Chapters to quell the rebellion of Huron in its egg. They trusted Space Marines this time and it was a grave mistake. They failed to stop Huron and his followers before they went fullblown traitors. We could say the Inquisition dropped the ball in this conflict which was treated as a trade dispute of some sort for a while instead of an open rebellion. As to why Sisters weren't there we can propose a million suggestion that ranges from there were available Sisters of Battle force available in the area at the moment it was needed to the person in charge underestimated the gravity of the situation passing by they didn't have time to secure the support of a Sister of Battle Order before the entire thin blew out. It's pure conjecture since the writer of the story didn't care nor needed to explain in detail why some (very unpopular at the time) sub-faction wasn't present or mentioned during the conflict. We could say that of any conflict in which X faction isn't present in mass. The Badab War included the Mechanicus as one of the first party to be aggrieved by Huron and the Astral Claws. I don't think there has been much mention of titans or skitarii cohort being deployed to crush them even though the Mechanicus possess those assets. The Badab War was conceived as Marine vs Marine conflict. There isn't even mention of the inquisition or the Imperial Guard being involved in the conflict, but there is mention of over half a dozen Space Marine Chapters.
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Sgt_Smudge wrote: To add more evidence to the "the Sisters aren't exactly the 'anti-marine' force" pile, I'd draw attention to the Watcher of the Throne series, where a coup is hatched against Guilliman and his reforms allowing Custodes to be more active out-system, a coup which includes the former Ecclesiarch on the HLOT siding against Guilliman. Most notably, they don't call in Sisters of Battle to deploy en masse and consolidate power, but the Minotaurs Chapter instead - even though the Ecclesiarch certainly has the clout to call in PLENTY of Sisters if they so desired.
The key words there are coup and former Ecclesiarch not current Ecclesiarch. I would also note that the raison d'être of the Sisters of Battle is to precisely prevent coup of that sort by the Ecclesiarchy. Yes, they are religious enforcers and under the command of the Church, but they are simultaneously charged with the duty of peventing any coup à la Vandire. They are the sword and shield of the Ecclesiarchy, but also a dagger at its throat. The Sisterhood suported Guilliman rise to power. If the former Ecclesiarch had called them, chances are they would have vandired him and added his head to another one of their banner for heresy. It's not even a situation of either or. You could call in the Minotaurs AND the Sisterhood for a coup. In fact you probably should. If htey had just the Minotaurs its probably because they were not confident in attracting the service of others, but were certain the Minotaur's Chapter Master would not rat them out to Guilliman for plotting against him.
BrianDavion wrote: So, where where sisters of battle during the Badb war? the largest and most dangerous space Marine rebellion since the Horus Heresy, surely the Imperium would have used it's BEST solution to problem space marine chapters in that war. what did the IoM send? Space Marines.
Well, during the Badab War, the Imperium send Space Marines Chapters to quell the rebellion of Huron in its egg. They trusted Space Marines this time and it was a grave mistake. They failed to stop Huron and his followers before they went fullblown traitors. We could say the Inquisition dropped the ball in this conflict which was treated as a trade dispute of some sort for a while instead of an open rebellion. As to why Sisters weren't there we can propose a million suggestion that ranges from there were available Sisters of Battle force available in the area at the moment it was needed to the person in charge underestimated the gravity of the situation passing by they didn't have time to secure the support of a Sister of Battle Order before the entire thin blew out. It's pure conjecture since the writer of the story didn't care nor needed to explain in detail why some (very unpopular at the time) sub-faction wasn't present or mentioned during the conflict. We could say that of any conflict in which X faction isn't present in mass. The Badab War included the Mechanicus as one of the first party to be aggrieved by Huron and the Astral Claws. I don't think there has been much mention of titans or skitarii cohort being deployed to crush them even though the Mechanicus possess those assets. The Badab War was conceived as Marine vs Marine conflict. There isn't even mention of the inquisition or the Imperial Guard being involved in the conflict, but there is mention of over half a dozen Space Marine Chapters.
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Sgt_Smudge wrote: To add more evidence to the "the Sisters aren't exactly the 'anti-marine' force" pile, I'd draw attention to the Watcher of the Throne series, where a coup is hatched against Guilliman and his reforms allowing Custodes to be more active out-system, a coup which includes the former Ecclesiarch on the HLOT siding against Guilliman. Most notably, they don't call in Sisters of Battle to deploy en masse and consolidate power, but the Minotaurs Chapter instead - even though the Ecclesiarch certainly has the clout to call in PLENTY of Sisters if they so desired.
The key words there are coup and former Ecclesiarch not current Ecclesiarch. I would also note that the raison d'être of the Sisters of Battle is to precisely prevent coup of that sort by the Ecclesiarchy. Yes, they are religious enforcers and under the command of the Church, but they are simultaneously charged with the duty of peventing any coup à la Vandire. They are the sword and shield of the Ecclesiarchy, but also a dagger at its throat. The Sisterhood suported Guilliman rise to power. If the former Ecclesiarch had called them, chances are they would have vandired him and added his head to another one of their banner for heresy. It's not even a situation of either or. You could call in the Minotaurs AND the Sisterhood for a coup. In fact you probably should. If htey had just the Minotaurs its probably because they were not confident in attracting the service of others, but were certain the Minotaur's Chapter Master would not rat them out to Guilliman for plotting against him.
I think you are wrong on this point about sisters being meant to prevent another Vandire. In the sisters Omnibus and all the established lore surrounding sisters, including books about the Cadian pride (Rubbish book btw) it clearly shows the Sisters are incapable or at least completely unwilling to act contrary to the churches decree. Even when that order is to slaughter civilians in a crowd. Sisters are, by there very nature, so over zealous and fervant, that they are literally blinded from and by the church. How many times does this need to be shown in the Fluff? Sisters are completely sworn to the edicts of the service of the church, and are willing to break any and all rules or imperial laws to accomplish those edicts (See: Sisters of Ebon Chalice breaking the law that Sisters don't kill sisters, when one of their order was found to be warp tainted (Omnibus book 3). Also, the main character of the Omnibus Sister whatsherface(AKASister my bolter is my diplomacy skill) making the choice she made during the Hollos Incident.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I think you are wrong on this point about sisters being meant to prevent another Vandire.
In their older codex, I don't know if it's mention they are clearly mentionned as protector of the faith and designed to keep the Church in check for its own failabilities (hence also the non-militant Sister Orders most notably the Dialogus and Famulus). The first SoB novel, Faith and Fire, see the Sisterhood killing a renegade Bishop and his priest goons for plotting a coup. Now, I dont know if this has changed in the newer codex, but to my best knowledge its indeed part of their mission.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I think you are wrong on this point about sisters being meant to prevent another Vandire. In the sisters Omnibus and all the established lore surrounding sisters, including books about the Cadian pride (Rubbish book btw) it clearly shows the Sisters are incapable or at least completely unwilling to act contrary to the churches decree. Even when that order is to slaughter civilians in a crowd. Sisters are, by there very nature, so over zealous and fervant, that they are literally blinded from and by the church. How many times does this need to be shown in the Fluff?
Sisters of battle background 101 - (original codex p16 but repeated elsewhere) "... no legal standing to oppose Thor and his argument that the Adepta Sororitas would regulate the Ecclesiarchy as much as enforce its will did not fall on deaf ears"
Expanded on in the witch hunters codex, pages 5 and 6 and the convocation of nephilim.
Beyond that the abbess is technically the equal of the ecclesiarch in rank (a high lord) - while the sisters are the militant forces of the church they are not a force under the absolute control of the church. If the ecclesiarch says one thing and the abbess tells him to sod off then strictly speaking her word is law.
Given the sisters history they are always going to have one eye on the church and any preacher that strays from the sisters understanding of the faith.
epronovost wrote: Now, I dont know if this has changed in the newer codex, but to my best knowledge its indeed part of their mission.
It hasn't been changed in the newer codex. Fezzik has already gotten multiple facts wrong in this thread (he believes that "the custodes were slaughtering Sisters" during the Age of Blood, and refuse to give any source for this statement that contradicts every lore I read on the issue, for instance), and refuse to even acknowledge it. Keep this in mind, and double-check every thing he says, as it is quite likely to include very... creative interpretations. He made his opinion, and he'll take it as fact, whether you want it or not. So, .
epronovost wrote:Well, during the Badab War, the Imperium send Space Marines Chapters to quell the rebellion of Huron in its egg. They trusted Space Marines this time and it was a grave mistake. They failed to stop Huron and his followers before they went fullblown traitors. We could say the Inquisition dropped the ball in this conflict which was treated as a trade dispute of some sort for a while instead of an open rebellion.
Eh, not exactly how Badab started or even why there was Marine interference.
When Huron declared his secession, literally no-one cared except his immediate neighbours. Astartes were only brought in because the Fire Hawks agreed to get involved and sort the mess out, not from any immediate Terran decree. It was only after things escalated and the web of allies and enemies grew thicker that the HLOT saw reason to intervene. AND most notably, even after Huron refused to submit to Inquistorial authority, they didn't jump straight to killing them, instead wanting to bring him into custody. And they hired four Astartes Chapters (including a First Founder) to see it done. Why not Sisters? Hell, they were able to even deploy Ordo Hereticus Stormtroopers by the end of the war, the exact Ordo that the Sororitas should be aligned with. There could be many reasons why not. But, in the same vein, there could be many reasons why Astartes aren't called in to deal with renegade Chapters and Sisters are sometimes pushed into the role.
As to why Sisters weren't there we can propose a million suggestion that ranges from there were available Sisters of Battle force available in the area at the moment it was needed to the person in charge underestimated the gravity of the situation passing by they didn't have time to secure the support of a Sister of Battle Order before the entire thin blew out.
Over a several years long campaign?
There isn't even mention of the inquisition or the Imperial Guard being involved in the conflict, but there is mention of over half a dozen Space Marine Chapters.
Actually, there is, I believe, of Hereticus Stormtroopers being deployed at the Palace of Thorns.
The key words there are coup and former Ecclesiarch not current Ecclesiarch.
Still an Ecclesiarch, who likely has considerable political pull.
I would also note that the raison d'être of the Sisters of Battle is to precisely prevent coup of that sort by the Ecclesiarchy.
Not sure how far I agree with that, especially seeing as there's people here also claiming that the Sisters are the Ecclesiarchy's prized possession and utterly loyal to them.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Actually, there is, I believe, of Hereticus Stormtroopers being deployed at the Palace of Thorns.
I indeed did miss the late intervention of inquisitorial stormtroopers, but there is no mention of PDF elements, Imperial Guards, Skitarii or Titan legions. What sort of war lasting about 10 years I believe doesn't attract any members of these forces?
Not sure how far I agree with that, especially seeing as there's people here also claiming that the Sisters are the Ecclesiarchy's prized possession and utterly loyal to them. It's one or the other, really.
It's actually both since these aren't mutually exclusive positions. The Sisters are uterely loyal to a specific enterpretation of the Ecclesirarchy teaching and to the specific place of the Ecclesiarchy in the Imperium's governance system. If you try to push the Ecclesiarchy up, down or to another place, the Sisterhood will oppose you by all means necessary. If you are an orthodox and politically conservative member of the Ecclesiarchy, the Sisterhood is your greatest asset. The members of the Ecclesiarchy who aren't orthodox and politically conservative have the bad tendency of getting killed or pushed aside by the Sisterhood influence, alternatively by the Inquisition and by the orthodox and conservative members who can count on the support and influence of these two organisations to diminish the influence of the reformists. Thus the conservative and orthodox faction dominates the Ecclesiarchy inner politics and, in turn, they give the Sisterhood massive support to retain their dominant position.
A.T. wrote: Sisters don't get to have any kind of artillery beyond their limited number of exorcists, no aircraft or fleet support of their own, they have pretty much nothing that can meaningfully lay a siege nor do they have any really heavy linebreaker forces.
I would be very careful with such argument. Sisters of Battle don't have flyers or other artillery than the Exorcist, no superheavy, etc because they were left to rot for 15 years and GW just now gave them a breath of life. They didn't use to have power sword wielding jump pack equipped troops, now they do. In two years, GW might give the Sisters retroactively every single tool you just mentionned. Space Marines didn't used to have centurion armors or anti-air tanks or flyers before 6th eddition and now they do.
"A Militant Order typically maintains its own fleets of orbital assault vessels and macro-landers, but larger battleships and interstellar transports are seconded from the Imperial Navy. These ships may be assigned to an order for decades or even centuries, but are still officially not part of the Ecclesiarchal military."
So those Battleships and Cruisers listed as assets are seconded from the Navy, where the escort class ships may or may not belong to the order. Either way, the Sororitas have reliable access to a fleet. This type of support would be distributed among the Preceptories and Convents, so it doesn't go far, but it's there.
The Avenger Fighter from FW was a Sisters option prior to 8th. I think any faction that doesn't have a flyer yet has a really good chance of getting one this edition- Sisters included, especially since we have a history. If they release the Avenger for a new IG, they can add a sisters bling sprue so we can use it in Sisters army.
This is a bizarre discontinuity in the new book. The frateris templars are the original soldiers of the Ecclesiarchy who (along with their fleets) were ended after Vandires death. Their inexistance is the primary point behind the decree passive which is central to the sisters existance.
I have no idea what GW were up to including that. It's like seeing a modern space marine chapter breakdown which includes remembrancers and thunder warriors.
When did this happen? That's unfortunate :( What are the chamber's militant now?
-STS
they don';t have a chamber militant, GW's been carefully moving back from the whole chamber militants thing since the SOB WD 'dex in 5th edition. the Inqusition has allies they work with yes,m but the death watch, grey knights and sisters are battle are all independant orginizations whom simply work with the inqusition at their discretion
It's genuinely one of the poorer changes of fluff in my opinion. It was genuinely super cool that the ordo's had their own chamber militants, it also made the power of the inquisition more feasible in the sense they could requisition anything to do their bidding, but they also had their own super specialists that could be called in as and when needed.
It probably made less sense for the sisters to be a chamber militant of the hereticus as they were so closely tied to the ecclesiarchy, but for the deathwatch it made perfect sense they were intertwined with the ordo xenos, as well as the grey knights the malleous, however it would have been important for the grey knights to keep the inquisition more at arms length than the deathwatch.
The hereticus could have had more specialised scions etc to do their bidding with a very close alliance with the sisters, but not have them completely embedded.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: It probably made less sense for the sisters to be a chamber militant of the hereticus as they were so closely tied to the ecclesiarchy
The ordo hereticus was originally created in the wake of Vandire, to ensure there would never be another like him. So the inquisition, sisterhood, and ecclesiarch(Thor) were on the same page.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: It probably made less sense for the sisters to be a chamber militant of the hereticus as they were so closely tied to the ecclesiarchy
The ordo hereticus was originally created in the wake of Vandire, to ensure there would never be another like him. So the inquisition, sisterhood, and ecclesiarch(Thor) were on the same page.
I totally get that, but the ordo hereticus also needs to be independent of the ecclesiarchy, they can work closely with, associated even but they cannot be linked. The sisters linked them. For the sisters to work as the chamber militant they would have to also be divorced from the ecclesiarchy. The ecclesiarchy are a huge potential problem as vandire shown, the ordo hereticus must also be able to hold them to account, specifically Cardinals who over indulge on their specific vice to the point it may gain interest in from the chaos gods.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I totally get that, but the ordo hereticus also needs to be independent of the ecclesiarchy, they can work closely with, associated even but they cannot be linked. The sisters linked them. For the sisters to work as the chamber militant they would have to also be divorced from the ecclesiarchy. The ecclesiarchy are a huge potential problem as vandire shown, the ordo hereticus must also be able to hold them to account, specifically Cardinals who over indulge on their specific vice to the point it may gain interest in from the chaos gods.
Strictly speaking the sisters are, or at least were - it's another thing that has been retconned / carelessly overlooked in the new codex (whoever wrote the hierarchy page did so with a very tenuous adherence to established lore)
The Abbess Sanctorum held the rank of high lord and was not subservient to the Ecclesiarch, merely aligned with them. Page 15 of the new codex goes against that but then it also has the sisters organisation including Frateris Templars(defunt for ten thousand years), Tempestus Scions(not even vaguely the same organisation), and so on. It's a bizarre mess of a chart.
BrianDavion wrote: the Inqusition has allies they work with yes,m but the death watch, grey knights and sisters are battle are all independant orginizations whom simply work with the inqusition at their discretion
Makes sense for Sisters and Grey Knights, but this is, like, VERY weird for Deathwatch. What is their identity now? Are they investigating on xenos threat all by themselves, doing the science and everything?
BrianDavion wrote: the Inqusition has allies they work with yes,m but the death watch, grey knights and sisters are battle are all independant orginizations whom simply work with the inqusition at their discretion
Makes sense for Sisters and Grey Knights, but this is, like, VERY weird for Deathwatch. What is their identity now? Are they investigating on xenos threat all by themselves, doing the science and everything?
They seem to have gone from an investigative, covert special ops type that destabilises, high value search and destroy, with some amount of overlooking/guarding and being the early warning beacon for specific, potentially dangerous threats type of organisation to a typical but specialised defensive force in key locations type of outfit, not so much investigation and cloak and dagger style any longer which is a shame I personally think.
It comes after turning them into an army though, they should have always being an ally kill teams only force, with a dreadnaught here and there maybe, nothing else. It's just like grey knights for me though personally, they were so much cooler when all that was ever needed was 5x in terminator armour. Ultra rare and never in larger numbers except for once or twice in the fluff for the biggest threats...
Oh well, the lift on that box got lifted long ago, I shouldn't still be complaining about it.
This is a bizarre discontinuity in the new book. The frateris templars are the original soldiers of the Ecclesiarchy who (along with their fleets) were ended after Vandires death. Their inexistance is the primary point behind the decree passive which is central to the sisters existance.
I have no idea what GW were up to including that. It's like seeing a modern space marine chapter breakdown which includes remembrancers and thunder warriors.
I think the idea is that any Imperial unit that is seconded offically to the Sororitas is declared as a Frateris Templar, confirming that they are not and never will be part of the Church but still remain under its command for the duration - be that days, weeks, years or centuries.
Obviously warships smaller than "larger battleships" are Sororitas.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: No, you are right, I agree with everything you wrote.
Deathwatch as a defensive force? Makes no sense, what's the point of this over a normal chapter?
It not quite a “force” being defensive, in most cases from my understanding. Rather, the Deathwatch will have lots of out posts in edge of Imperium Space that will act as early warning stations that might just have a squad or fewer marines and maybe personal or maybe servitors there for upkeep. They might also have bigger fortresses acting as organizing and send-off points for Killteams and greater forces. It’s not clear if the Deathwatch has access to super good warp capable ships along the lines of the Officio Assassinorum, however, they might, which would explain their quick reaction times.
I think it’s kind of fitting that the Ordo Hereticus doesn’t have a hard Chamber Militant anymore. It’s the baby of the Ordos Majoris, and yet it’s the most well known and feared of the major Ordos in the Imperium. And, I’ll be honest, being that there’s no Heretic Hunter specialmarine chapter like we have the Deathwatch and Grey Knights, it really appeals to my desire for congruency that they don’t have chamber instead of having to prop themselves with Sisters of Battle or Silence or Super stormtroopers. If I wanted to have an Ordo Hereticus force, I like that I’m not quite stuck into Sisters of Battle for allies.
the poroblem with the desth weatch has always been that the astartes are incrediably independant, that they'd all come together to form an orginization that is the inqusition's bitch made little sense, and raises the question of "well what about the chapters that don't trust the inqusition?"
An orginization that is independant, at least on paper, that works, often hand in hand with the inqusition while being free to persue their own agenda makes more sense
That's explained by firstly, chapters are expected to send marines, but not obliged to send them, and for as many chapters that see it an honour to send marines and receive them back (additionally, marines also receive extra training/upto date knowledge and tactics to defeat certain xenos foes, so there is a direct benefit to sending them) other chapters use it as a means to send problem astartes and as a form of penal discipline... You hate inquisitors like all of us, but you keep disobeying orders? Well guess what prize you have just won young man! Astartes can be petty like all of us
The first few days/weeks together for a Kill Team must be pretty awkward. " - Hey brother Bobus of the Astral Sticks, how did you end up here? - Well, I managed to stop a genestealer cult without a single loss of marine life by killing a patriarch in hand to hand combat, and was rewarded with the great honor of being sent to the Deathwatch. What about you brother Johnus of the Pointy Claws? - Ahah well I was sent here because I gave my squad false information to get them where I could charge him and kill him, because I wanted his jaw as a trophy. It worked but I got my whole squad killed so here I am lol " Nice team-mates!!! lol
The Deathwatch is aware of possible conflicts like this and has disciplinary actions to handle it. Chief among them is being strapped down and forced to watch hours of video from failed missions of your own chapter being killed, supplied by their chapter. While there may be no love between some chapters, the bond a marine feels for his own chapter is extremely potent and can be harmed to make them obey. Even an unruly Minotaur was made to play nice after being sent to watch his chapter dying for hours.
The other and more serious punishment is to be dishonorably discharged back to your chapter. It's an enormous mark of shame for a marine and one that chapters would treat very harshly.
Though the independent nature of the Deathwatch is such that they do just as many operations based on their own intelligence and agenda as they do for Inquisitors requesting their assistance.
jareddm wrote: The Deathwatch is aware of possible conflicts like this and has disciplinary actions to handle it.
I didn't think of it as a conflicts, I just find the idea that you just got a huge honor because you did something awesome, and you talk to your teammate, and you realize they are here because they suck, that's quite the awkward situation .
jareddm wrote: hours of video from failed missions of your own chapter being killed, supplied by their chapter.
I'm surprised the chapters all have that, and even MORE surprised that the proud ones are willing to share it .
jareddm wrote: Though the independent nature of the Deathwatch is such that they do just as many operations based on their own intelligence and agenda as they do for Inquisitors requesting their assistance.
How do an organization composed only of marines get any kind of intelligence?
The Deathwatch has just as many serfs as any chapter, if not way more because of all the far-flung Watch Stations.
The Deathwatch RPG books go into a lot of this. Watch Stations can be built as data-gathering listening posts full of spy equipment, marines can don Scout Armor and do legitimate recon missions just like normal chapter, information can be acquired through politicking with other Imperial Adepta, and occasionally even xenos sources. Prisoners are taken and interrogated, xenos cogitators can be hacked by techmarines, or xenos relics themselves might be used for various auguries.
I'm surprised the chapters all have that, and even MORE surprised that the proud ones are willing to share it .
The methods of the Deathwatch are kept by a vow of secrecy agreed by all chapters. Every chapter has secrets, even the proud ones, which is why this vow is so sacred.
How do an organization composed only of marines get any kind of intelligence?
They have observation posts called Watch Stations to monitor a specific threat or location. Teams are sent on intelligence gathering missions. Nearby Imperial organisations would share some intel. Do you think that the Chapters that supply the Deathwatch marines wouldn't share any intel they have obtained. Inquisitors would also likely point out what they think needs to be done, even if directly ordering them is not possible.
Chambers Militant still exist, and largely to the same degree they always have since I started playing. The idea that the Inquisitors have overall operating authority over the Deathwatch, Grey Knights, or Adepta Sororitas is a misconception based on the way the Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters codexes were organized back in the day, but even the fluff of those books made it clear that an Inquisitor doesn't just get power armored henchmen and women and boss them around, they've always needed to appeal to their respective Chamber Militant and have squads loaned to them.
It's certainly harder to represent this on the board - it's harder to represent a pure Inquisition force in general, and much easier to just drop an inquisitor into a fully formed Sisters of Battle force, which can represent them at the head of a large task force assigned by the Sorroritas or an Inquisitor who dropped in on an existing Ecclesiarchy task force and started bossing people around, which is basically the same thing you'd do with an inquisitor in the middle of a Guard or Space Marine army too.
Reading all of this makes me want to start a sister's of battle army hahahaha, I love my elves but having a small group of angelic overly-zealous sisters sounds fun! ♥
jareddm wrote: The Deathwatch is aware of possible conflicts like this and has disciplinary actions to handle it.
I didn't think of it as a conflicts, I just find the idea that you just got a huge honor because you did something awesome, and you talk to your teammate, and you realize they are here because they suck, that's quite the awkward situation .
jareddm wrote: hours of video from failed missions of your own chapter being killed, supplied by their chapter.
I'm surprised the chapters all have that, and even MORE surprised that the proud ones are willing to share it .
jareddm wrote: Though the independent nature of the Deathwatch is such that they do just as many operations based on their own intelligence and agenda as they do for Inquisitors requesting their assistance.
How do an organization composed only of marines get any kind of intelligence?
The Deathwatch like any Chapter has numerous serfs in its service, using some of them as intelligence operatives is not beyond the realms of possibility.
It will gain indirect intelligence thorugh other Imperials - especially those with who is has established a good relationship - especially the Ad Mech and the Ordo Xenos
This is a bizarre discontinuity in the new book. The frateris templars are the original soldiers of the Ecclesiarchy who (along with their fleets) were ended after Vandires death. Their inexistance is the primary point behind the decree passive which is central to the sisters existance.
I have no idea what GW were up to including that. It's like seeing a modern space marine chapter breakdown which includes remembrancers and thunder warriors.
All it simply means is that those battle ships were Frateris Templar, or were a class called Frateris Templar.
Luunar wrote: Reading all of this makes me want to start a sister's of battle army hahahaha, I love my elves but having a small group of angelic overly-zealous sisters sounds fun! ♥
If I do, I'll definitely get Celestine
You're not alone, it's a gorgeous sculpt. Maybe after I complete my BT...they should get along nicely.
jareddm wrote: The Deathwatch is aware of possible conflicts like this and has disciplinary actions to handle it.
I didn't think of it as a conflicts, I just find the idea that you just got a huge honor because you did something awesome, and you talk to your teammate, and you realize they are here because they suck, that's quite the awkward situation .
jareddm wrote: hours of video from failed missions of your own chapter being killed, supplied by their chapter.
I'm surprised the chapters all have that, and even MORE surprised that the proud ones are willing to share it .
jareddm wrote: Though the independent nature of the Deathwatch is such that they do just as many operations based on their own intelligence and agenda as they do for Inquisitors requesting their assistance.
How do an organization composed only of marines get any kind of intelligence?
It depends on who is writing the book you are reading. I've never heard of a Space Marine tanking a Tachyon arrow to the face, and shrugging it off. I have read about Sisters doing that. Also, Space marines can't heal mortal wounds by praying REALLY hard. Finally, Space Marines are programed automatons. They are literally designed at the genetic level to be mindless killing machines. Sisters are more. I would say sisters are the epitome of a super-human, but again, it depends on which book you are reading. Sisters don't have built in genetic flaws.
BrianDavion wrote: the Inqusition has allies they work with yes,m but the death watch, grey knights and sisters are battle are all independant orginizations whom simply work with the inqusition at their discretion
Makes sense for Sisters and Grey Knights, but this is, like, VERY weird for Deathwatch. What is their identity now? Are they investigating on xenos threat all by themselves, doing the science and everything?
It actually doesn't make a lot of sense for the Sisters. Part of the reason the High Lords have accepted the *wink wink, nudge nudge* interpretation that allows the Sisters because they're not "men under arms" is that they were specifically going to be the chamber militant of Ordo Hereticus in addition to the Ecclesiarchy's essentially private military.
The Imperium may love their bureaucracy but just coming out of the largest insurrection since the Horus Heresy, they would have had no qualms about squashing the Adepta Sororitas for violating the spirit of the treaty if not the exact wording.
It would be like saying that the Marines' strike cruisers and battle barges were no longer owned and operated by the Chapters but merely co-opted and provided at the discretion of the Imperial Navy. Doesn't materially affect the table top but raises some weird questions about how they fit into the universe.
Well, they do still have a level of independence from the 'Ecclesiarchy Proper' - the Abbess Sanctorum has a seat at the table on her own behalf and the Adepta Sororitas came into being by executing the Ecclesiarch for heresy.
I still would've preferred the chamber militant thing - especially for the deathwatch; the whole point of them back in Inquisitor days was that they're not a conventional chapter but a group of marines from various chapters that's essentially sworn itself into inquisitorial service, bypassing the 'First Founding Chapter Master Says No' issue where an Inquisitor can theoretically issue orders but in practice hasn't a hope in hell of enforcing them.
I didn't think of it as a conflicts, I just find the idea that you just got a huge honor because you did something awesome, and you talk to your teammate, and you realize they are here because they suck, that's quite the awkward situation .
Far from the most awkward situation. Just imagine a Deathwing veteran and an Executioner talking crap on the shooting range.
"I don't know much about your chapter, I must admit. Sons of Dorn, yes?"
"Yes, brother. We had a sad recent history in the Badab War. We were drawn into the conflict by honour debts and it was too late when realised we had found ourselves fighting against the imperium."
"You....what? What happened?"
"We surrendered, confessed openly, were sent on a hundred year penitent crusade after which our homeworld was returned to us and we were publicly forgiven."
"Wait.....you can DO that?"
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It depends on who is writing the book you are reading. I've never heard of a Space Marine tanking a Tachyon arrow to the face, and shrugging it off. I have read about Sisters doing that. Also, Space marines can't heal mortal wounds by praying REALLY hard. Finally, Space Marines are programed automatons. They are literally designed at the genetic level to be mindless killing machines. Sisters are more. I would say sisters are the epitome of a super-human, but again, it depends on which book you are reading. Sisters don't have built in genetic flaws.
Why do you seem to make it a habit to say blatantly and obviously untrue things about the fluff on this board?
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