I have not been able to muster the desire to buy into 9th. After some soul searching I have come to the conclusion that I am simple overwhelmed with Imperials. I do not fault the players. People play what they like. And I wont shame a space marine player for playing a army he/she wants to. But as a non-imperial player I have been driven away by the overwhelming rules bias, release bias and attention bias the imperial side of the game enjoys. Knowing this is a business I do not fault GW for going for the quick buck. Thats what a corporation does. But GW is losing customers little by little. Of the several players I have kept in contact with, one has also fallen out of the game due to this same fact. So we are not many, but it is happening.
The point of this post, is to ask that if anyone has been getting overwhelmed as well? If so, how are you handling it?
Also, looking at the background lore forum, most of the posts are imperial in nature. Perhaps is cognitive bias on my part, but it used to seem that the lore section was a decent mix of xenos and imperial posts. Once more, please, imperial players, do not take this as a insult to your choice of army boys/girls/aliens.
I've been in the hobby for 20 years. One constant I've seen is that many many people take frequent breaks for a variety of reasons.
Their faction is weak. A faction is too strong. A meta is stale. A core mechanic is unfun. Characters are too good. Vehicles are too good. Vehicles are awful. Forgeworld is OP. Forgeworld is too expensive. My faction hasn't had a codex in three editions, and I feel left out. Annual price hikes have placed me out of the hobby...
etc, etc, etc...
But the thing about 40k. The models don't really go anywhere. Some people sell out, but I feel like most people keep their armies tucked in a closet, basement, or at a friend's house who they used to play with.
But the models are still there. The lore is still there. It's a wide open hobby with tons of room for imprinting yourself on your collection, and it will imprint itself onto you.
So sure, Imperial is getting all of the love, and maybe that's enough to make you bow out. Maybe GW will surprise us in a year or two and draw you back in.
Whatever you choose to do, we'll be here when you get back.
Perhaps Marines and Imperials get a lot of attention, however sometimes the attention they get gets magnified, repeated, boosted and such online to the point where a modest imbalance becomes a major problem; a modest number of extra models becomes dominant etc..
So sometimes focusing on a negative aspect will start to magnify it in your mind. What starts out a mole hill becomes a mountain. What begins as something you can deal with becomes insurmountable; or overcoming it requires far more effort than you want to put into your hobby interest.
Heck didn't Necrons also get some fantastic models with Indomitus, right alongside the marines. Heck personally I'd say Necrons got more good models than Marines this time around (Marines got a go-kart ).
Rules are a hotbed of opinions and its important to remember that lots of people are wrong. Flat out wrong. They might have impressions from few games; only theory; or just have a bias in their viewpoint that they don't realise. It doesn't mean the rules don't have issues ,but it doesn't mean every issue is correct.
And then there's another layer which is hobby burn-out. We ALL get that. It's when we've burned out on the hobby and its lost its shine, its draw and attraction. This can be when we start to make a lot of mountains and some people can get really hostile about problems or issues that they see. It doesn't mean the problems aren't problems, its just that when coupled to a natural burn-out people have less joy to latch onto and they keep shifting the blame around for why they can't enjoy what they once did.
In the end its often that the game is no different now to when it was back when it was fun; they've just changed a bit as a person.
So a break is natural. This might mean a new army (eg xenos); a new game (AoS) or perhaps a new company (Infinity/Malifaux/Warmachine/Hordes/etc...) or even a new hobby entirely (sailing, photography, hiking, knitting - whatever). Sometimes a nice bit of time away can help you re-set mentally.
We've all taken breaks - some might be a few days; some might be years.
There has never been a time within the last 15+ years that the game was not primarily catered to Imperial armies.
As for the idea that GW is losing customers, though? Objectively that just isn't true. GW has made more money in the past three years than at any other point in its history.
I think they are focusing on marines a lot but part of that is what should have been 1 release gets stretched out to 20, they could really have all the chapter rules in 1 book, but they can make more off of a core marine book and then a bunch of supplements and then stretching out the releases.
I have several times walked away from the game for a while, burnout is normal and taking a break before it gets to bad is a good idea.
I am glad that they seem to be at least interweaving other factions in the releases(a moment of silence for our delayed deathguard brothers) instead of all the marines then everyone else. Honestly sometimes having to wait a little while into the edition is better as generally the first few codex's tend to be bad compared to what comes later. Look at 8th edition marines up until the late 8th codex(brokenly OP), they were terrible.
In general my interest in the hobby I have found is based more about myself and whats happening on my life than the hobby itself.
With the exception of some very dark times where really warhammer was too bad to enjoy it (end of 7th and birth of AoS), the rest of the time it was just good enough to have fun with it.
And I believe that applies to most people. But when we have less interest in the hobby for personal reasons normally we rationalize it with reasons from within our hobbies.
For example when I'm in a hobby motivational streak and GW previews new models and armies I'm like "OMG I WANT THAT SO BAD!" but when I'm more disconnected I watch some previews and those miniatures just don't speak anything to me.
You certainly aren't alone, dude. Talking amongst my (pretty limited) circle (hard to play 40k when you're on opposite sides of the world), I think there's a pretty universal expression of rules fatigue.
8th started out pretty brilliantly - with the indexes, GWshowed they know how to make a pretty balanced, fun game. It wasn't perfect, but I think a really large proportion of people would say it's the healthiest 40k has been in a long time. Now we're three years down the line, and re-doing codexes, and already GW are throwing in campaigns, suppliments and all kinds of other nonsense. 9th, and the point values for 9th were a disaster on launch - a launch they had extra time to work on, and were honestly under no pressure except from themselves to put out.
I've not tried 9th yet. And straight up, the reason is that as a pretty casual player, I've got no idea at all which pdfs, which eratta, which point values, which faqs I need to be using. I don't know if the errors in the English documents are going to be present in the Japanese ones, and I don't know if they'll be corrected, or indeed if there are a host of different errors.
The release schedule, too, is utterly relentless. It's unhealthy. The bitterness coming from practially all corners - guard, xenos, chaos is really a sign of how unhealthy the community is getting. I remember when I got into the hobby, it was about 2015, and GW re-booted a bunch of the marine kits. We're now 5 years down the line, and GW still hasn't stopped re-booting, only now they're making them bigger. When a single faction gets some love, it's great, and GW have put out some beautiful non-marine minis, especially GSC, TS, Admech etc. But every army compared to marines, as a range? Is just utterly, utterly dwarfed. It's really a testimony to how unrelentingly bloated the marine range continues to be, that even a release like the necrons feels like mere table scraps, because at every turn, marines still get more. And we know there are absolutely no signs of slowing down, because of all the half-released boxset units (jump-pack autocannon guys etc.), all the blurry photos that get leaked showing yet another transport/speeder/hover abomination.
And on top of that, GW have been hiking prices constantly.
It's very true that financially, GW are killing it. They report year-on-year profits, growth, etc. But I think that we're beginning to see, too, how fast, for a really BIG proportion of the community, that all the goodwill from the few really good decisions GW have made in the past 5-10 years are starting to sour for a lot of players.
This is the first edition where I've barely glanced at the rules. First edition I've not even bought the Space Marine codex. I've started doing the other parts of the hobby - building, painting, etc. much, much more imo, but you're certainly not alone in your burnout.
The point of this post, is to ask that if anyone has been getting overwhelmed as well? If so, how are you handling it?
Not really overwhelmed, but i think everybody is tired of the non-stop marine (primaris) releases.
As humans we self identify with the imperium by and large as it is also the perspective the story is told from.
As for 9th overall, i was only lukewarm on 8th to begin with, after reading the rules for 9th and watching it being played it is to different of a game than what i liked about 40K in it's previous editions so i have zero interest in playing it and after spending the thousands of dollars i have already on pre-primaris/pre-8th ed armies i am more than happy keeping all my old books & minis and playing an older edition with friends.
posermcbogus wrote: 8th started out pretty brilliantly - with the indexes, GWshowed they know how to make a pretty balanced, fun game.
That's really interesting to me because I remember a loooot of complaints regarding how barebones the indexes were, as well complaints that they didn't have any flavor that brought the factions to life on the tabletop.
I have been getting overwhelmed with the pace of GW releases lately. Not just Imperium or 40k but in general. It has been nice, as compared to ye olde days, but the escalation has gotten to the point where it feels a bit relentless. I kind of wish they would slow down. But that's just me.
Also yeah, I am also burned out by Space Marine releases but that's both common and old news for most of us I imagine.
posermcbogus wrote: 8th started out pretty brilliantly - with the indexes, GWshowed they know how to make a pretty balanced, fun game.
That's really interesting to me because I remember a loooot of complaints regarding how barebones the indexes were, as well complaints that they didn't have any flavor that brought the factions to life on the tabletop.
People are also justifiably more forgiving of a book where GW says 'hey this is just to keep things going until the proper army update' verses an actual codex.
I definitely feel, and I say this as someone who generally likes all the Primaris releases, that Marines have had too much of a focus lately and more studio focus needs to be spent on other armies.
Off the top of my head: Eldar Aspects need to be redone, Guard need their core kits redone, Tyranids could use a core refresh for Gaunts and Stealers, and Orks need their infantry refreshed and updated as well.
So while I like chonky Marines, the game definitely needs to send some love to other armies for an edition.
I mean, Necrons just got some great stuff and Chaos is routinely getting goodies right and left (mostly Death Guard lately). It really just feels like Orks, Tau and DEldar are the ones left mostly in the cold (and DEldar are about to get some stuff!).
There's been a lot of Marine stuff and I might've agreed they were getting too much focus back in June, but it's levelled out mostly O.K. since then I think (I say this as an Imperial, but not Space Marine, player).
Audustum wrote: I mean, Necrons just got some great stuff and Chaos is routinely getting goodies right and left (mostly Death Guard lately). It really just feels like Orks, Tau and DEldar are the ones left mostly in the cold (and DEldar are about to get some stuff!).
There's been a lot of Marine stuff and I might've agreed they were getting too much focus back in June, but it's levelled out mostly O.K. since then I think (I say this as an Imperial, but not Space Marine, player).
Tau are the best supported Xenos model wise. What they need is a rework on the rules. Maybe something that let's them make shooting attacks instead of melee attacks.
For myself, with all the ridiculous units marines have been getting just kinda made me not want to play my Salamanders. we finally get a unit that is very Salamander(eradicators) and they give it rules to end all rules, just takes the fun out of it. I actually preferred when primaris sucked and had more fun facing an uphill battle every game. now, it's almost you don't need to try. so for the foreseeable future the 18th will just be a display army & I'm focusing on Flawless Host, Bloody Rose & Metalica.
Gee GW, you sure know how to take the fun out of playing Loyalists!
Racerguy180 wrote: For myself, with all the ridiculous units marines have been getting just kinda made me not want to play my Salamanders. we finally get a unit that is very Salamander(eradicators) and they give it rules to end all rules, just takes the fun out of it. I actually preferred when primaris sucked and had more fun facing an uphill battle every game. now, it's almost you don't need to try. so for the foreseeable future the 18th will just be a display army & I'm focusing on Flawless Host, Bloody Rose & Metalica.
Gee GW, you sure know how to take the fun out of playing Loyalists!
I'm starting Black Templars finally (after years of pointless waffling), so at least I get to handicap myself with melee.
But yeah, they did a good job fixing some things, but the Eradicators are broken as is. And I feel like they overshot on the Aggressor nerfs.
yeah, a happy medium between the two would've been much preferred, but alas....GDUBS GONNA GDUBS.
it's kinda why I stopped working on my ynarri, gonna forget about them for another year.
but, burnout is a thing and my wallet is saying NO. so I'll just play with the stuff I already have while lavishly painting all of my Salamanders to a higher level(which is what I most enjoy, what can I say, I love green)
Tau are the best supported Xenos model wise. What they need is a rework on the rules. Maybe something that let's them make shooting attacks instead of melee attacks.
Tau are the best supported Xenos model wise. What they need is a rework on the rules. Maybe something that let's them make shooting attacks instead of melee attacks.
Tau is..... an odd way to spell Necron.
Necrons just got a massive model expansion and update, sure, but I'm almost positive that Tau have a wider range of unit options across the board.
Tau are the best supported Xenos model wise. What they need is a rework on the rules. Maybe something that let's them make shooting attacks instead of melee attacks.
Tau is..... an odd way to spell Necron.
Necrons just got a massive model expansion and update, sure, but I'm almost positive that Tau have a wider range of unit options across the board.
Going purely by "number of kits listed on the GW site" Necrons are third behind Craftworlders and Orks. Tau are fifth, behind Tyranids.
By datasheets Tau have 38 in the Codex to the Necrons' 51. Imperial Armour doesn't narrow the gap much, that brings the Tau up to 49 to the Necrons' 60.
Tau are the best supported Xenos model wise. What they need is a rework on the rules. Maybe something that let's them make shooting attacks instead of melee attacks.
Tau is..... an odd way to spell Necron.
Necrons just got a massive model expansion and update, sure, but I'm almost positive that Tau have a wider range of unit options across the board.
Going purely by "number of kits listed on the GW site" Necrons are third behind Craftworlders and Orks. Tau are fifth, behind Tyranids.
I knew Nids would be up there, but I honestly thought Tau had more than Crons. Probably because they had releases in two editions while most of the other Xenos barely got anything.
Tau have almost no random resin characters, and they have a really sparse roster since all the suits have such flexible loadouts by comparison to the single-loadout Eldar or the two-loadout Necrons.
I share some of the sentiment but it's not really the Imperials that tire me, but the endless flow of new Space Marines. Nothing would make me more happy than to see a proper Astra Militarum release or something similar as it would break up the current flow of "Men in Power Armor". I don't even collect or play AM, but seeing new units and a model refresh would be an awesome boost for the hobby.
Personally I find the amount of Space Marine releases and the amount of campaign books to be too high currently as I feel like I am drowning in books. Just the Psychic Awakening release fills a whole shelf, and having the rule set fractured just gets tiring. At this point it feels a bit like a full time job to be a Space Marine player because the release schedule for that faction is so frequent and rapid that there is always a new model/unit to assemble and pain, and it just leaves less and less time for other factions or specialist games. It's why I've decided to not enter the Space Marine arms race this edition as I'd really like to paint some of my other armies.
I have seen a small exodus of 40k players moving to AoS as AoS doesn't have the same relentless avalanche and Stormcast don't have the same clout as Space Marines do. However, with the new Broken Realms book I do fear we'll end up seeing a Psychic Awakening-esque release schedule and we'll see some of the exhaustion from 40k move into AoS.
I have been getting overwhelmed with the pace of GW releases lately. Not just Imperium or 40k but in general. It has been nice, as compared to ye olde days, but the escalation has gotten to the point where it feels a bit relentless. I kind of wish they would slow down. But that's just me.
Same here. I used to be interested in the specialist games and other GW experiments, but with the current pace of releases I just don't have the time for it.I would have to completely live and breathe Warhammer and not work to enjoy the current output of GW stuff.
Currently I am testing the waters in Star Wars Legion. Just something to break away from the GW community a bit and to avoid complete and utter burnout. I would also say that COVID has probably not helped much when it comes to feeling burned out in regards to the hobby.
I feel like Sisters should have helped break up the feeling that it's been a never ending stream of Marines, but then they were followed almost immediately by more Marines stuff.
Tau are the best supported Xenos model wise. What they need is a rework on the rules. Maybe something that let's them make shooting attacks instead of melee attacks.
Tau is..... an odd way to spell Necron.
Necrons just got a massive model expansion and update, sure, but I'm almost positive that Tau have a wider range of unit options across the board.
Going purely by "number of kits listed on the GW site" Necrons are third behind Craftworlders and Orks. Tau are fifth, behind Tyranids.
By datasheets Tau have 38 in the Codex to the Necrons' 51. Imperial Armour doesn't narrow the gap much, that brings the Tau up to 49 to the Necrons' 60.
Not a good idea to go by "kits listed" on GW's site since they list the same unit a number of times with different names. Orkz for example have Morkanaut and Gorkanaut listed but its the same box, same for Meganobz and the Mega armor Big Mek, same box. Same with the Dakkajet, Burna Bommer, Wazbom and Blitza Bommer. They also have the Smasha, Bubble-Chucka, KMK and Traktor kannon listed. So those right there make up 12 "Kits listed" but are actually 4.
SemperMortis wrote: ...Not a good idea to go by "kits listed" on GW's site since they list the same unit a number of times with different names. Orkz for example have Morkanaut and Gorkanaut listed but its the same box, same for Meganobz and the Mega armor Big Mek, same box. Same with the Dakkajet, Burna Bommer, Wazbom and Blitza Bommer. They also have the Smasha, Bubble-Chucka, KMK and Traktor kannon listed. So those right there make up 12 "Kits listed" but are actually 4.
Kits listed isn't a good proxy for kits released, no, but it's a good proxy for "amount of rules content" given that dual/triple/quad kits tend to have two/three/four datasheets.
8th started out pretty brilliantly - with the indexes, GWshowed they know how to make a pretty balanced, fun game. It wasn't perfect, but I think a really large proportion of people would say it's the healthiest 40k has been in a long time.
Says who? I don't know a single person who loved indexes, we all hated them. IMHO it was the worst experience of 40k ever, but I could be biased as the 3 armies I owned had terrible indexes, and I've seen the first codex only after 10 months of 8th edition. 9th edition mechanics are also FAR better than 8th ones, by a significant margin. Indexes or not.
I wouldn't go so far as LOVED, but I LIKED the indexes. They're also where I drew my GW line in the sand, as there did seem to be some measure of balance.
Currently I am testing the waters in Star Wars Legion. Just something to break away from the GW community a bit and to avoid complete and utter burnout.
i hit the burnout point with the release of 6th. at that point i only had 40K, B5 wars, BFG and classic battletech. i shelved 40K for about a year and got into infinity, warmachine, victory at sea, forces of valor battle tactics (1:32 scale WWII skirmish). more recently i added DUST and monpoc.
I highly recommend stepping away from GW for some variety. there are some truly great games out there that you miss if you stay focus on GW products.
Currently I am testing the waters in Star Wars Legion. Just something to break away from the GW community a bit and to avoid complete and utter burnout.
i hit the burnout point with the release of 6th. at that point i only had 40K, B5 wars, BFG and classic battletech. i shelved 40K for about a year and got into infinity, warmachine, victory at sea, forces of valor battle tactics (1:32 scale WWII skirmish). more recently i added DUST and monpoc.
I highly recommend stepping away from GW for some variety. there are some truly great games out there that you miss if you stay focus on GW products.
I agree. I think the problem is that GW has such a market saturation that it is often difficult in many places to play different games.
I hit that point a long time ago, really around the release of 6th edition.
But you know, GW is still producing some awesome stuff and a lot of the stuff I have always loved is still available.
I have got myself a little starter force for all of my favourite factions and am putting together armies for Grimdark Future rather than 40K. If GW release cool models I like the look of I am happy to pick them up, otherwise I look at the start collecting boxes for good value on kits I always liked before.
I don't like the way the background went from 8th so I am working on my own background for my minis and really enjoying that as well. I always wanted a Space Dwarf faction so I am putting them in using Mantic models.
Necromunda models are sweet as hell and the old rules are easy to find, so now I have a visually upgraded version of my favourite sci fi skirmish game.
I am mixing my old BFG stuff with some Dropfleet Commander stuff to make some fleets for my various forces.
Honestly I am more enthused than I have been in years because I realised that this is my hobby, and it really doesn't have to have anything to do with whatever GW is releasing this month. I have a huge range of awesome stuff to paint and work on, and there are plenty of great free rulesets out there to use with your models.
What I miss out on I guess is the pick up and play and tournament scene. But if I ever decide I want to take part in that, it will not be difficult to grab one of my armies and give it a go, and I am relaxed about that because it just currently does not appeal to me because of how the game is structured.
When I look at what GW the corporation is doing, yeah I get a bit cynical about all the Space Marine releases. And their rules have always been spotty to say the least. But nothing stops us from going off and finding better rules to use with our toys and buying the stuff we are interested in for our projects rather than riding the new release train.
These sorts of posts used to annoy me a bit back when I was still heavily invested in GW, but those guys were right. It is your hobby, take ownership of it. If the corporation is causing you to lose interest or become unhappy, then just ignore them and focus on what you do enjoy and what originally drew you in.
Losing the pick up and play and tournament stuff is a big deal for some people - back then I was a store club gamer and a tournament gamer. But cutting loose of all that has some major advantages too. I never get annoyed or anything by anything GW does now, I just look to see if they are making anything I like the look of. And you know, often they are!
The point of this post, is to ask that if anyone has been getting overwhelmed as well? If so, how are you handling it?
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I do play an imperial marine faction, but an unupdated one. My ways of dealing with the marine style of rules, or necron ones which seem to be very nice or all the other good xeno and chaos factions is. First 9th is way better then 8th, if I took the worse 9th game I had and put had the same style of game in 8th, I would rank it as the best game I had all 8th ed. Second I wait for a codex update. I waited 3 years for PA with GK rules, I can wait another 1-2 years for a GK codex. From what I also understand some people went in to painting and convering, while waiting for their factions being updated. One guy at my new store is repainting his tau army, and in the mean time he plays the store owners white scar list.
Currently I am testing the waters in Star Wars Legion. Just something to break away from the GW community a bit and to avoid complete and utter burnout.
i hit the burnout point with the release of 6th. at that point i only had 40K, B5 wars, BFG and classic battletech. i shelved 40K for about a year and got into infinity, warmachine, victory at sea, forces of valor battle tactics (1:32 scale WWII skirmish). more recently i added DUST and monpoc.
I highly recommend stepping away from GW for some variety. there are some truly great games out there that you miss if you stay focus on GW products.
Up until 8th our group was mainly focused on Warmahordes, and prior to that I personally mainly played WHFB before it died. Since then 8th attracted a lot of new player but the downside is they mainly only want to play 40k and I just don't enjoy 40k that much even at the best of times. I stuck with it through 8th because it was fairly simple but 9th brought in terrain classifications, secondaries, the command phase not to mention its being increasing the book keeping needed with stuff like protocols. A lot of them bought into Kill Team and Necromunda and even those don't really get played because I assume if you're making the effort to get family time off and travel 20+mins each way for an evening you may as well play a big game but playing one game for 3 years has really killed it for me.
I can enjoy 40k when its just putting models on a table and rolling dice, but it's gotten to the point where it's so cumbersome that if I need to do this much admin for a table top game I'd rather just play a board game and actually engage my mind in something beyond "have I remembered to do my command phase stuff? Which protocol are my necrons using this turn? Which stratagems am I using? Is everyone in the right place to use them? which kind of cover was this?" 40k is too big of a game to have so much crap going on. I can deal with in in Malifaux or Warmahordes because the games are much smaller in scale and don't take 3-4 hours to play not including set up but with 40k it feels like adding complexity for the sake of it. I have no desire to engage in 40k as a hobby anymore and I'm making a big effort to paint the armies I have and then I don't need to worry about it anymore. Don't need to buy any new books or models and can channel my energy into something I actually enjoy. What's especially frustrating is that on the rare occasion I've gotten the All 40k All The Time players to play a board game they seem to have been more invested and animated by it than they have in 40k games but for some reason they're very resistant to playing non-GW games.
I assume if you're making the effort to get family time off and travel 20+mins each way for an evening you may as well play a big game but playing one game for 3 years has really killed it for me.
I get one day a week and so i make the most of it (12+ hours under normal conditions) getting in games for several systems during the day...my commute is closer to an hour each way to the game store i volunteer at.
My frustration level with 6th caused my burnout. i could not play the army that i loved, lost every game i tried for a month straight and they were not the fun kind of great battle loses you enjoy....
The rest of your post is just whiney. But then, when I take a good look at the General section, I guess this is where you are supposed to whine.
Nevertheless, I expect at least 10 solid pages of pointless ""debate"" (extra "" are mandatory since by no mean we are debating here).
What he said was accurate, though. If you're not part of.the cult of consumption wrt Primaris right now 40k is insufferable.
Even many of us who like Primaris are burnt out by the sheer amount of Primaris releases. I mean the Primaris have seen as many releases in a couple years as some armies have in a decade.
Of the several players I have kept in contact with, one has also fallen out of the game due to this same fact.
Your statement is based upon nothing expect your small group of friends/players. As always with such stupid statement. The real answer is : we don't know.
The rest of your post is just whiney. But then, when I take a good look at the General section, I guess this is where you are supposed to whine.
Nevertheless, I expect at least 10 solid pages of pointless ""debate"" (extra "" are mandatory since by no mean we are debating here).
I said that my experience is from a small amount of players. So...............................................................................
As for whiney? Sure. I will own that. Im only replying to this to call out that no matter how much you try not to trigger people, you can trigger people. And ill state once more, perhaps in vain. I am NOT attacking Imperial fans or players. I have lived to long to throw people into a box and berate them. Some good posts here however. I have enjoyed reading most of them.
Tau are the best supported Xenos model wise. What they need is a rework on the rules. Maybe something that let's them make shooting attacks instead of melee attacks.
Tau is..... an odd way to spell Necron.
Necrons just got a massive model expansion and update, sure, but I'm almost positive that Tau have a wider range of unit options across the board.
Tau have the same number of ranged weapons in their wargear list as space marines have different kinds of bolter weapon.
Tau are the best supported Xenos model wise. What they need is a rework on the rules. Maybe something that let's them make shooting attacks instead of melee attacks.
Tau is..... an odd way to spell Necron.
Necrons just got a massive model expansion and update, sure, but I'm almost positive that Tau have a wider range of unit options across the board.
Tau have the same number of ranged weapons in their wargear list as space marines have different kinds of bolter weapon.
That isn't exactly a refutation of the idea that the Tau are the best supported xenos faction.
Yeah, 800 kinds of bolter, most of which have the same profile, is silly.
There has never been a better time to look outside of GW (or, oddly enough, at older OOPGW games that 3d printing has revolutionised and now have great community-revised rules and a solid following).
I've recently started Warmaster, there's a huge amount of 3d sculpted indie minis out there, many exceeding the quality and details of the originals. The ruleset is maintained by the community and is a revised version that works brilliantly, fixing the main issues with the first edition by incorporating the changes in warmaster ancients and adding scenarios.
Similar things have happened with BFG, Epic and Mordheim.
In terms of other gaming companies, you're spoilt for choice, Infinity, Star Wars Legion, Deadzone are all good picks. Or even just necromunda if you want to remain within GW's current supported ecosystem.
There's far more to the hobby than 40k, I got bored of it when realising that my Eldar are going to be stuck with late 1980s sculpts forever.
The rest of your post is just whiney. But then, when I take a good look at the General section, I guess this is where you are supposed to whine.
Nevertheless, I expect at least 10 solid pages of pointless ""debate"" (extra "" are mandatory since by no mean we are debating here).
What he said was accurate, though. If you're not part of.the cult of consumption wrt Primaris right now 40k is insufferable.
Even many of us who like Primaris are burnt out by the sheer amount of Primaris releases. I mean the Primaris have seen as many releases in a couple years as some armies have in a decade.
True. But it'd be very difficult to launch an entire new product line with out that # of releases....
Yeah, but it was GW's choice to launch that entire new product line.
Obviously, they did it for fairly sound economic reasons, and it has worked out for them. But that doesn't mean we as consumers owe them any praise for it in particular.
Table wrote: The point of this post, is to ask that if anyone has been getting overwhelmed as well? If so, how are you handling it?
Glass half full - my Imperial faction has gotten an update this decade. Marine bias, not imperial bias after all.
Glass half empty - the local group died off over 6th edition. We gave 8th a bit of a revival try but the high lethality card-combos and 'half hour bucket of dice with rerolls' game turns had mixed success. Perhaps try again in a year, or get the 5e rewrite done and try that.
The rest of your post is just whiney. But then, when I take a good look at the General section, I guess this is where you are supposed to whine.
Nevertheless, I expect at least 10 solid pages of pointless ""debate"" (extra "" are mandatory since by no mean we are debating here).
What he said was accurate, though. If you're not part of.the cult of consumption wrt Primaris right now 40k is insufferable.
Even many of us who like Primaris are burnt out by the sheer amount of Primaris releases. I mean the Primaris have seen as many releases in a couple years as some armies have in a decade.
True. But it'd be very difficult to launch an entire new product line with out that # of releases....
They've done it numerous times before and since so not sure how much water that holds.
Tau are the best supported Xenos model wise. What they need is a rework on the rules. Maybe something that let's them make shooting attacks instead of melee attacks.
Tau is..... an odd way to spell Necron.
Necrons just got a massive model expansion and update, sure, but I'm almost positive that Tau have a wider range of unit options across the board.
Tau have the same number of ranged weapons in their wargear list as space marines have different kinds of bolter weapon.
That isn't exactly a refutation of the idea that the Tau are the best supported xenos faction.
Yeah, 800 kinds of bolter, most of which have the same profile, is silly.
Tau just feel particularly well-supported because of two main reasons.
1) their iconic troop, HQ, and Elite all got a very nice rework fairly recently. Prior to that, Crisis Suits, Commanders, and Fire warriors were all 3rd ed era like Orks/Nids/Eldar/etc
2) their vehicles have that good fortune to be produced in the 3rd/4th early plastics era but are stylized enough that they look fairly good, pretty similar to Eldar vehicles. They look a damn sight better than IG vehicles/Firstborn Rhino vehicles/Good Lord No Chaos Marine Vehicles.
But I still gotta disagree. Orks and Necrons both have more extensive ranges, more options, and less embarrassing finecrap. And tighter armies like Harlequins GSC and Drukhari are 100% modern sculpts even if they have less stuff.
I can see where the OP is coming from, I have imperial armies and even I'm overwhelmed at this point.
I would say it isn't " Imperial " armies persay, it's Space marines by a large margin.Yes you can say they were always a large issue like this but I don't recall such a sustained period of time that marines took up literally 80% of the releases and its been sustained as such for awhile at this point.
Before you could at least give doubt to the dying that it wasn't so, now it's hard to miss and not every imperial army gets that attention ( just look at IG, outside of single special release characters they haven't gotten crap all through 8th and now into 9th and I am not sure that trend is going anywhere soon ).
Anyone saying this isn't a problem I think is really not following the trend when even youtubers are saying it's a bit too much that can be a sign maybe this path is burning people out on marine vs marines with side of marines.
I'm not trying to hate on anyone, this is a GW made problem and they really do need to relax a bit or people will get bored and just walk away and then they'll end up thinking " We haven't made enough space marines !!!! "
I'd say that was a joke, but it's probably what they'd say.
GW definitely did overkill with the current marine releases. The models in the Indomitus book were fine, but nobody was clamouring for a 3W Troop choice, another HQ option (Gravis again), a techmarine turret and gun bunker. It is full on marine whiplash, it's getting old (coming from someone with Dark Angels, Deathwatch and Ravenguard), even more so that they are dragging the living hell out of the current marine releases. They still have at least a month or two of releases. I would hope that this would be it for a very long time, but no....here is Uriel friggin Ventris for you, cause you need another marine HQ.
However, gaming can still be fun if you can bend your group a little. If all you are playing is 2000pts tournament style missions, it's going to get really old, especially if you're already saturated with Imperials. You have to mix it up if you're getting burned out (or switch to another game system for awhile).
I played a narrative mission solo from Vigilus last weekend. Iron Warriors attacking an Imperial World, but it was a mish mash of defenders...some guardsmen, with Blackstone Fortress robot as bodyguard for officer. 2 knight helverins, a squad of ravenguard intercessors, couple of rapier batteries, etc. It was a blast, more fun than I've had with a standard 2000pt game in awhile. It's also going to be a start for an ongoing narrative campaign now.
The rest of your post is just whiney. But then, when I take a good look at the General section, I guess this is where you are supposed to whine.
Nevertheless, I expect at least 10 solid pages of pointless ""debate"" (extra "" are mandatory since by no mean we are debating here).
What he said was accurate, though. If you're not part of.the cult of consumption wrt Primaris right now 40k is insufferable.
Even many of us who like Primaris are burnt out by the sheer amount of Primaris releases. I mean the Primaris have seen as many releases in a couple years as some armies have in a decade.
True. But it'd be very difficult to launch an entire new product line with out that # of releases....
They've done it numerous times before and since so not sure how much water that holds.
??
I'm not sure what your issue is.
You'd generally expect a product line of a 40k army to have what, around 20-30 kits, right? And a bit more for a particularly well supported range (Ex: Primaris).
The complaint is the sheer # of Primaris releases.
I was pointing out that this is not really the case. That the Primaris line has pretty much the # of kits one would expect.
Counting the stuff from the Indom launch bundle that's yet to be released on their own + that new Speeder thing, the Primaris line tallies up to 37 things.
Of those 37? 17 are individual characters, two of wich were previously released together (so I counted them as 3 releases), many of wich are just different Lts.
AND these releases? They've spanned what, 3?, almost 3.5-4 years? now.
It's that 3+ year trickle of releases for Primaris that's the oddity. Because your right, generally when a new line arrives you get most of it up front.
*I did not count chapter specific Primaris like Calgar/Ragnar/etc.
*I also only counted a vehicle kit once if it makes multiple variations of the unit.
*It's possible that I've missed a LT. somewhere
*I also didn't count any EZ build kits that have "complete" kits like the Redemptor dread.
*I did not count Forge World.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Ok put another way; which new product lines have gotten that number of releases ? Maybe I am just misunderstanding.
Well the only "new" product line 40k wise would be the sisters of Battle. Virtually their entire line was re-sculpted & became plastic.
They received 23 kits + the Battle Sanctum (terrain that helps SoB). And 7 of those are single character types. Oh, and there's 2(?) special edition SoB figures.
8th ed codex came out & everything save one of the LE figures arrived up front spread over a few months.
Coming in a strong 2nd would be my Necrons @ at least* 16 units (some characters, 1 just a different overlord sculpt, and new sculpts for a few other things) + that Convergence of Dominion kit.
Some of this stuff has yet to be released outside the Indom boxes though.
*Some of the characters & the plastic Wraiths I'm not sure if they were 9th or 8th & prior - so I didn't count them.
And this new stuff has been arriving steadily since the Codex dropped. Very much like the SoB stuff did.
But hey, I get it, they aren't Primaris & thus don't support the "We're drowning in Primaris releases".
After that it'd be the GSC & AdMech - I'm not sure what these guys had before in 7th, but I know they both received a fair # of additional units during 8th.
Whenever this discussion comes up I always have to laugh because of the Marine players agreeing with the central issue people raise, while still saying that they're buying all the new releases anyway.
Bosskelot wrote: Whenever this discussion comes up I always have to laugh because of the Marine players agreeing with the central issue people raise, while still saying that they're buying all the new releases anyway.
I'm building Marines right now, but I haven't bought anything since Indomitus dropped, I'm just chipping away at my pile of shame.
Honestly what I want to be spending money on right now is Traitor Guard, but I haven't really sold myself on what I want to do or which rules I want to use yet. Dark Mechanicus would be good too, but I always hit a bit of a roadblock thinking of ideas for conversions for them.
I never bough a single primaris model, as I already own a complete SM army and I'm not willing to add just a few out of scale models or re-buy the entire collection again. If I wanted to invest a significant amount of money in new miniatures I would have bought a different faction like sisters, not my very same army with updated models.
But with introducing sets and easy to build kits a large part of the new releases were actually very cheap, sometimes a huge deal. The indomitus marine half alone is cheaper than some single classic marine boxes.
A new complete primaris collection is definitely cheaper than most of the other factions, which is something that probably contributed to avoid (or maybe just limit) feeling overwhelmed.
Bosskelot wrote: Whenever this discussion comes up I always have to laugh because of the Marine players agreeing with the central issue people raise, while still saying that they're buying all the new releases anyway.
I'm building Marines right now, but I haven't bought anything since Indomitus dropped, I'm just chipping away at my pile of shame.
Honestly what I want to be spending money on right now is Traitor Guard, but I haven't really sold myself on what I want to do or which rules I want to use yet. Dark Mechanicus would be good too, but I always hit a bit of a roadblock thinking of ideas for conversions for them.
if your group is fine with playing older editions, or houseruling, grab yourself the IA13 ruleset.
Right now though go with "shudders" guard... for the more proffesional armies /militias and with GSC for cults... (even have the options for usefull daemons cough tyranid count as)
Whatever you do, unless you want to be an donkey-cave with the army, don't use the legends rules. If you want to be one, use the HWT quad launcher team spam with 35 ppm 5 man squad guaranteed smite bots.... much fun to be had... not really.
the_scotsman wrote: But I still gotta disagree. Orks and Necrons both have more extensive ranges, more options, and less embarrassing finecrap. And tighter armies like Harlequins GSC and Drukhari are 100% modern sculpts even if they have less stuff.
In terms of models, I'd agree that orks are a fairly well supported army because they have gotten stuff regularly and were rarely, if ever, left out of any release cycle. The list of things they need updated is rather short unless you are one of those people who have a problem with ork boyz for some reason.
Drukhari though? They've got their big release in a time when GW still thought finecast was the best idea ever, and sharing options between kits was normal. The fallout of the chapterhouse lawsuit has hit them harder than most, and I don't think they have gotten anything but finecast replacements in the last 8 years.
Bosskelot wrote: Whenever this discussion comes up I always have to laugh because of the Marine players agreeing with the central issue people raise, while still saying that they're buying all the new releases anyway.
Well, why shouldn't they? It's not their fault they get given new stuff.
I noticed we had a random metric of marines getting 80% of the releases earlier on here as well which is incredibly incorrect in terms of models, it's easily ess than 50% of 40k releases off top of my head?
Yeah that was my random metric and I don't think its as off as you'd imagine it to be, I'm not going to do the math but some time ago we had gone through releases from 8th on and marines were a vast majority at that time.
It may have been a high number but not at 80% but unless you want to do the math and fact check I still would say its at least 50% if not more, I'd wager more considering most factions haven't even got a real touching on in awhile.
As well it isn't the sheer number of releases so much as it is marine releases are never ending, do you really think you'll keep seeing necrons trickle out ? I doubt at this point we will see any new models with say Imperial guards release. The deathguard as it is now looks to be from all we know 2 whole models, one character and a scenery piece.
What have Dark Eldar gotten ? Or Eldar ? One new plastic unit and a character in how long ?
Sisters got a pretty large release but before then it was what a character here or there for what like 2 decades or something ? Hold in mind some of these numbers I'm just tossing out but even with that their release of a whole line reboot stretched out over like 3 or 4 months ?
We just keep being shown new marines, on new marines with new marines. I play marines, I even get some of them but other players do have a right to feel like nothing else shows up. We have what still coming ? The speeders, Heavy ints, Blade shield vet guys, probably like 4 more Lts at least, this Ventris character now. Who knows how many more supplements on the way.
You can argue the numbers but its the length as well as numbers that is really annoying to the people.
We could go through all the factions and if someone wants to, feel free to see what all they've gotten since 8th, unless the lines either new or gotten a full reboot you won't see that much for them I am pretty sure and even with whole line reboots it was done and over pretty fast considering the numbers involved.
It took how long for the admech faction to flesh out as it has ? That was the initial drops, then nothing for a long time, then the hovercrafts, then nothing for awhile , then the last wave with the flyer and winged guys and wild west gunslinger cyborgs.
I'm going on too far but marine saturation is real, it's not blown up because " everyone hates marines ! " Many of us play marines but you'd be forgiven for thinking 40k is really just marines and their enemies battle zone game. In the grim darkness of the far future there is only marines and those they kill.
Bosskelot wrote: Whenever this discussion comes up I always have to laugh because of the Marine players agreeing with the central issue people raise, while still saying that they're buying all the new releases anyway.
Well, why shouldn't they? It's not their fault they get given new stuff.
I noticed we had a random metric of marines getting 80% of the releases earlier on here as well which is incredibly incorrect in terms of models, it's easily ess than 50% of 40k releases off top of my head?
A bigger issue is how you count rules etc.
Some people view burn out as Model based, some are more concerned with the game balance.
Some are a combination of multiple thing's.
Also I don't think anyones really saying it's marine players fault but the mess GW have made with the constant Marines Marines marines relentlessly getting new models, new rules, new model, new rules. While armies have widely been panned as unplayable competitively and wait entire editions to make it to B tier thrn be abandoned again.
Like when games in stores become 50+% marine vrs marine it's a problem.
The rest of your post is just whiney. But then, when I take a good look at the General section, I guess this is where you are supposed to whine.
Nevertheless, I expect at least 10 solid pages of pointless ""debate"" (extra "" are mandatory since by no mean we are debating here).
What he said was accurate, though. If you're not part of.the cult of consumption wrt Primaris right now 40k is insufferable.
Even many of us who like Primaris are burnt out by the sheer amount of Primaris releases. I mean the Primaris have seen as many releases in a couple years as some armies have in a decade.
True. But it'd be very difficult to launch an entire new product line with out that # of releases....
They've done it numerous times before and since so not sure how much water that holds.
??
I'm not sure what your issue is.
You'd generally expect a product line of a 40k army to have what, around 20-30 kits, right? And a bit more for a particularly well supported range (Ex: Primaris).
The complaint is the sheer # of Primaris releases.
I was pointing out that this is not really the case. That the Primaris line has pretty much the # of kits one would expect.
Counting the stuff from the Indom launch bundle that's yet to be released on their own + that new Speeder thing, the Primaris line tallies up to 37 things.
Of those 37? 17 are individual characters, two of wich were previously released together (so I counted them as 3 releases), many of wich are just different Lts.
AND these releases? They've spanned what, 3?, almost 3.5-4 years? now.
It's that 3+ year trickle of releases for Primaris that's the oddity. Because your right, generally when a new line arrives you get most of it up front.
*I did not count chapter specific Primaris like Calgar/Ragnar/etc.
*I also only counted a vehicle kit once if it makes multiple variations of the unit.
*It's possible that I've missed a LT. somewhere
*I also didn't count any EZ build kits that have "complete" kits like the Redemptor dread.
*I did not count Forge World.
Discounting all the chapter specific models, charictors and easy build kits is very disingenuous IMHO as those are all things that no xeno factions got.
I also don't think any other imperial faction has either, I only really remeber deathguard as getting ETB kits so really it's just another way to downplay the raw number of Marine kits GW has saturated the game with since the start of 8th. Not to mention being the only faction on codex 3.0 and their 3 set of supliments.
Like assuming a team of 4 sculptors a fairer way to devide resources would be
1 for marines
1 for Choas
1 for xeno
1 for Imperial
What it feels like currently is we have
3 for marines
1 for choas, imperial, xeno.
Not to mention people are getting sick of playing against marines 3.0 after being abused by marines 2.0
Why people can't see that reducing the games to green marines versus grey marines is not healthy for community's long term I dont know.
I understand your perspective but let me pose a different angle.
I understand marine players complaining, they get fleeced for money constantly, more stuff than they can actually keep up with and feel resented for it.
Turning this on it's head do none marine players want to buy a new codex every year, have nigh on mandatory supplements to buy on top, to have more models released invalidating or updating chunks of the army trickled out month after month?
Is the core problem that it's a constant trickle, is it that its marines and not somebody else or is it simply that they release too much too often now?
Bosskelot wrote: Whenever this discussion comes up I always have to laugh because of the Marine players agreeing with the central issue people raise, while still saying that they're buying all the new releases anyway.
Well, why shouldn't they? It's not their fault they get given new stuff.
I noticed we had a random metric of marines getting 80% of the releases earlier on here as well which is incredibly incorrect in terms of models, it's easily ess than 50% of 40k releases off top of my head?
A bigger issue is how you count rules etc.
Some people view burn out as Model based, some are more concerned with the game balance.
Some are a combination of multiple thing's.
Also I don't think anyones really saying it's marine players fault but the mess GW have made with the constant Marines Marines marines relentlessly getting new models, new rules, new model, new rules. While armies have widely been panned as unplayable competitively and wait entire editions to make it to B tier thrn be abandoned again.
Like when games in stores become 50+% marine vrs marine it's a problem.
The rest of your post is just whiney. But then, when I take a good look at the General section, I guess this is where you are supposed to whine.
Nevertheless, I expect at least 10 solid pages of pointless ""debate"" (extra "" are mandatory since by no mean we are debating here).
What he said was accurate, though. If you're not part of.the cult of consumption wrt Primaris right now 40k is insufferable.
Even many of us who like Primaris are burnt out by the sheer amount of Primaris releases. I mean the Primaris have seen as many releases in a couple years as some armies have in a decade.
True. But it'd be very difficult to launch an entire new product line with out that # of releases....
They've done it numerous times before and since so not sure how much water that holds.
??
I'm not sure what your issue is.
You'd generally expect a product line of a 40k army to have what, around 20-30 kits, right? And a bit more for a particularly well supported range (Ex: Primaris).
The complaint is the sheer # of Primaris releases.
I was pointing out that this is not really the case. That the Primaris line has pretty much the # of kits one would expect.
Counting the stuff from the Indom launch bundle that's yet to be released on their own + that new Speeder thing, the Primaris line tallies up to 37 things.
Of those 37? 17 are individual characters, two of wich were previously released together (so I counted them as 3 releases), many of wich are just different Lts.
AND these releases? They've spanned what, 3?, almost 3.5-4 years? now.
It's that 3+ year trickle of releases for Primaris that's the oddity. Because your right, generally when a new line arrives you get most of it up front.
*I did not count chapter specific Primaris like Calgar/Ragnar/etc.
*I also only counted a vehicle kit once if it makes multiple variations of the unit.
*It's possible that I've missed a LT. somewhere
*I also didn't count any EZ build kits that have "complete" kits like the Redemptor dread.
*I did not count Forge World.
Discounting all the chapter specific models, charictors and easy build kits is very disingenuous IMHO as those are all things that no xeno factions got.
I also don't think any other imperial faction has either, I only really remeber deathguard as getting ETB kits so really it's just another way to downplay the raw number of Marine kits GW has saturated the game with since the start of 8th. Not to mention being the only faction on codex 3.0 and their 3 set of supliments.
Like assuming a team of 4 sculptors a fairer way to devide resources would be
1 for marines
1 for Choas
1 for xeno
1 for Imperial
What it feels like currently is we have
3 for marines
1 for choas, imperial, xeno.
Not to mention people are getting sick of playing against marines 3.0 after being abused by marines 2.0
Why people can't see that reducing the games to green marines versus grey marines is not healthy for community's long term I dont know.
Everyone can see this, but nobody is forcing these people to play marines.
There are 20 factions with codices out there.
They essentially are doing releases roughly twice a month now, so it's not rocket science to just spread releases evenly across 12 months.
Heck, they'd even have four slots left to do chapter-specific releases so the snowflake chapters keep their identity and for stuff like ynnari, inquisition or assassins.
Jidmah wrote: There are 20 factions with codices out there.
They essentially are doing releases roughly twice a month now, so it's not rocket science to just spread releases evenly across 12 months.
Heck, they'd even have four slots left to do chapter-specific releases so the snowflake chapters keep their identity and for stuff like ynnari, inquisition or assassins.
I mean they kind of are, there is a logical need to put the supplements out first to replace the now redundant codecii. So factoring that in they're forced to front load the marine supplements and then they're spreading out the marine models over several months so there isn't too much at once. Seemingly the same with crons but less so.
Given there are now 4 fewer marine dex, that's a net gain long term for everyone else in theory.
Discounting all the chapter specific models, charictors and easy build kits is very disingenuous IMHO as those are all things that no xeno factions got.
I also don't think any other imperial faction has either, I only really remeber deathguard as getting ETB kits so really it's just another way to downplay the raw number of Marine kits GW has saturated the game with since the start of 8th. Not to mention being the only faction on codex 3.0 and their 3 set of supliments.
Did you know that;
Characters:
Orks got a shiny new completely different Grazzkul (sp?) kit There may have been other characters when the Codex landed, but you'd have to ask an Ork player.
Jain Zaar & that Dark Eldar guy don't count?
I have an awful lot of new Necron characters that're new to 9th.
Speaking of Necrons.... Did you know that my Heavy Lokhust Destroyer & Doomstalker are EZB?
But you're right, there's no new xeno characters or EZBs
Discounting all the chapter specific models, charictors and easy build kits is very disingenuous IMHO as those are all things that no xeno factions got.
I also don't think any other imperial faction has either, I only really remeber deathguard as getting ETB kits so really it's just another way to downplay the raw number of Marine kits GW has saturated the game with since the start of 8th. Not to mention being the only faction on codex 3.0 and their 3 set of supliments.
Did you know that;
Characters:
Orks got a shiny new completely different Grazzkul (sp?) kit There may have been other characters when the Codex landed, but you'd have to ask an Ork player.
Jain Zaar & that Dark Eldar guy don't count?
I have an awful lot of new Necron characters that're new to 9th.
Speaking of Necrons.... Did you know that my Heavy Lokhust Destroyer & Doomstalker are EZB?
But you're right, there's no new xeno characters or EZBs
Randomly they're not classed as easy to build, they don't come up under it on the GW site.
But yeah there was also shadowsun, the sister and harlequin duo, an inquisitor special character as well.
I think if we were to boil it all down, everyone wants to be excited for their army and to have something new to be excited about. Marines are getting that more than anyone else and so I fully understand why people feel the way they do.
I just think some people need to consider whether wanting everything Marines get is good thing or not though. Likewise playing Marines because they get new stuff/are good atm isn't solely the fault of GW, that's on the players as well.
Jidmah wrote: There are 20 factions with codices out there.
They essentially are doing releases roughly twice a month now, so it's not rocket science to just spread releases evenly across 12 months.
Heck, they'd even have four slots left to do chapter-specific releases so the snowflake chapters keep their identity and for stuff like ynnari, inquisition or assassins.
I mean they kind of are, there is a logical need to put the supplements out first to replace the now redundant codecii. So factoring that in they're forced to front load the marine supplements and then they're spreading out the marine models over several months so there isn't too much at once. Seemingly the same with crons but less so.
I agree on the books, but all those models? There was no need to drop the entire primaris range with plenty of extras within 4 years, though I admit that those releases might have been lined up by the previous management.
Given there are now 4 fewer marine dex, that's a net gain long term for everyone else in theory.
Eh, maybe. I still think that space marine chapters should still get their one or two special units and characters, but not to the extend of Ultramarines or Space Wolves.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote: Orks got a shiny new completely different Grazzkul (sp?) kit There may have been other characters when the Codex landed, but you'd have to ask an Ork player.
Deffkilla wartrike is a character, in 7th there was MA and SAG Big Mek. I guess you could also count da red gobbo if you really wanted.
Speaking of Necrons.... Did you know that my Heavy Lokhust Destroyer & Doomstalker are EZB?
Randomly they're not classed as easy to build, they don't come up under it on the GW site.
Well, wether or not they officially call them that is a pretty pointless. The feature of EZB was no glue required. You pick up one of these & the box tells you No Glue Required.... EZB without the name is still EZB.
Discounting all the chapter specific models, charictors and easy build kits is very disingenuous IMHO as those are all things that no xeno factions got.
I also don't think any other imperial faction has either, I only really remeber deathguard as getting ETB kits so really it's just another way to downplay the raw number of Marine kits GW has saturated the game with since the start of 8th. Not to mention being the only faction on codex 3.0 and their 3 set of supliments.
Did you know that;
Characters:
Orks got a shiny new completely different Grazzkul (sp?) kit There may have been other characters when the Codex landed, but you'd have to ask an Ork player.
Jain Zaar & that Dark Eldar guy don't count?
I have an awful lot of new Necron characters that're new to 9th.
Speaking of Necrons.... Did you know that my Heavy Lokhust Destroyer & Doomstalker are EZB?
But you're right, there's no new xeno characters or EZBs
So how exactly does adding that compair to the 17 primaris Lieutenants and shrike, calgar, Russ, ferros, garraden, slamanders dude.
You either include them all or have to discount them for everyone.
You can't arbitrarily decied that as you have 17 lt they only realy count as 1 model. I dont see 17 models for warboss on sale do you?
Discounting all the chapter specific models, charictors and easy build kits is very disingenuous IMHO as those are all things that no xeno factions got.
I also don't think any other imperial faction has either, I only really remeber deathguard as getting ETB kits so really it's just another way to downplay the raw number of Marine kits GW has saturated the game with since the start of 8th. Not to mention being the only faction on codex 3.0 and their 3 set of supliments.
Did you know that;
Characters:
Orks got a shiny new completely different Grazzkul (sp?) kit There may have been other characters when the Codex landed, but you'd have to ask an Ork player.
Jain Zaar & that Dark Eldar guy don't count?
I have an awful lot of new Necron characters that're new to 9th.
Speaking of Necrons.... Did you know that my Heavy Lokhust Destroyer & Doomstalker are EZB?
But you're right, there's no new xeno characters or EZBs
So how exactly does adding that compair to the 17 primaris Lieutenants and shrike, calgar, Russ, ferros, garraden, slamanders dude.
You either include them all or have to discount them for everyone.
You can't arbitrarily decied that as you have 17 lt they only realy count as 1 model. I dont see 17 models for warboss on sale do you?
Speaking of Necrons.... Did you know that my Heavy Lokhust Destroyer & Doomstalker are EZB?
Randomly they're not classed as easy to build, they don't come up under it on the GW site.
Well, wether or not they officially call them that is a pretty pointless. The feature of EZB was no glue required. You pick up one of these & the box tells you No Glue Required.... EZB without the name is still EZB.
So is their 2 versions of the doomstalker then like their is 2 different kits with different sprues like their is for the marine easy to build line?
I'm not having a go at marine player's more at GW for have a very short sighted view they have saturated the game with marines to the point it's basically become 30k with primaris lately.
Ironically, the harlequin is an imperial model, not an aeldari.
I just think some people need to consider whether wanting everything Marines get is good thing or not though.
I think the vast majority people here are not arguing to get what marines get. People want to have releases more evenly distributed, which means less marines, more of everything else.
Likewise playing Marines because they get new stuff/are good atm isn't solely the fault of GW, that's on the players as well.
Jidmah wrote: ... or just release alternative sculpts for something that is not a loyalist marine.
Would that make less people play marines?
Edit: actually this is 2 problems, that would alleviate some of the release bloat and be welcomes by everyone, but the other issue is this theory there are more marine players than ever, which this doesn't stop.
Jidmah wrote: A theory that really hasn't ever been proven.
Just because most people are taking marines to competitive games, doesn't mean that they wouldn't take another army if it had the same power/support.
If its competitive games its the power that matters for those who want to win/copy those who want to win, the fact there are 17 lietenants isn't a problem there.
If Tau get a stupid op broken book in 3 months I can assure you there will be an upturn in tau players at all levels of the game even if there is no models accompanying. Which is where I think ice_can is missing the point slightly.
Jidmah wrote: A theory that really hasn't ever been proven.
Just because most people are taking marines to competitive games, doesn't mean that they wouldn't take another army if it had the same power/support.
If its competitive games its the power that matters for those who want to win/copy those who want to win, the fact there are 17 lietenants isn't a problem there.
If Tau get a stupid op broken book in 3 months I can assure you there will be an upturn in tau players at all levels of the game even if there is no models accompanying. Which is where I think ice_can is missing the point slightly.
I think one without the other would be annoying but not overbearing and would see a lot less sentiment of "I'm fed up with the All Marines all the Time Verison of 40k"
New models for the faction while they were bad would be annoying for those still stuck with failcast but it's not having those new models in every game.
Vise versa Drukari/guard etc having good rules tends to have a lesser impact on peoples game experience as buying up 2k points of guard and paint etc isn't something that for 90% of the player base is a quick turnaround.
Yet with Marines we have new relase upon new release that's top tier to OP in a cheap army that's everywhere.
The saturation of 40k with primaris since codex 2.0 has been way worse than before codex 2.0 and they were still not actually that uncommon in casual play 40k before that.
It's really a bit of a perfect storm of GW own making.
More new models
More new more powerful rules
Cheapest 2k point army due to being in 90% of starter/launch box sets.
Jidmah wrote: A theory that really hasn't ever been proven.
Just because most people are taking marines to competitive games, doesn't mean that they wouldn't take another army if it had the same power/support.
If its competitive games its the power that matters for those who want to win/copy those who want to win, the fact there are 17 lietenants isn't a problem there.
If Tau get a stupid op broken book in 3 months I can assure you there will be an upturn in tau players at all levels of the game even if there is no models accompanying. Which is where I think ice_can is missing the point slightly.
I think one without the other would be annoying but not overbearing and would see a lot less sentiment of "I'm fed up with the All Marines all the Time Verison of 40k"
New models for the faction while they were bad would be annoying for those still stuck with failcast but it's not having those new models in every game.
Vise versa Drukari/guard etc having good rules tends to have a lesser impact on peoples game experience as buying up 2k points of guard and paint etc isn't something that for 90% of the player base is a quick turnaround.
Yet with Marines we have new relase upon new release that's top tier to OP in a cheap army that's everywhere.
The saturation of 40k with primaris since codex 2.0 has been way worse than before codex 2.0 and they were still not actually that uncommon in casual play 40k before that.
It's really a bit of a perfect storm of GW own making.
More new models
More new more powerful rules
Cheapest 2k point army due to being in 90% of starter/launch box sets.
Marines can't be forced to suck simply because they're easier to buy though. Yes they need to be balanced, but if you peel off those chasing the competitive dragon/internet hype the proportion will probably be what it always has been I'd guess.
Marines allways were more supported indeed. And part of the issue is the "overtuning" indeed aswell. But when we get that ammount of marines, that is unprecedented. Sometime back we had a full list comparison. Marines alone had more then all Chaos factions combined in terms of releases. That were at the time 4-5 (depeding upon R&H count or not) full factions. And chaos is well supported, unless you play aftermentioned R&H or any type of army that isn't daemons or superhumans.
Dudeface wrote: If its competitive games its the power that matters for those who want to win/copy those who want to win, the fact there are 17 lietenants isn't a problem there.
If Tau get a stupid op broken book in 3 months I can assure you there will be an upturn in tau players at all levels of the game even if there is no models accompanying. Which is where I think ice_can is missing the point slightly.
That's not what I said.
There really is no way to know what people want to buy outside of GW's sales numbers. The only things we know about these is small bits from old interviews and hearsay (not to be confused with heresy).
The next best thing is the numbers we have from game data trackers, which indicate that marines are played more than any other race, but outside of that model releases don't really match up with their competitive participation - if it were, xenos releases combined should easily outnumber marine releases, which they don't by a long shot.
Last, but not least, I did a poll here on dakka asking this precise question, and marines were roughly on equal footing with other big factions, like craftworlds, orks, guard or CSM. Even if you claim that dakka is not a representative community (there is no proof of that either), it's another indicator.
Discounting all the chapter specific models, charictors and easy build kits is very disingenuous IMHO as those are all things that no xeno factions got.
I also don't think any other imperial faction has either, I only really remeber deathguard as getting ETB kits so really it's just another way to downplay the raw number of Marine kits GW has saturated the game with since the start of 8th. Not to mention being the only faction on codex 3.0 and their 3 set of supliments.
Did you know that;
Characters:
Orks got a shiny new completely different Grazzkul (sp?) kit There may have been other characters when the Codex landed, but you'd have to ask an Ork player.
Jain Zaar & that Dark Eldar guy don't count?
I have an awful lot of new Necron characters that're new to 9th.
Speaking of Necrons.... Did you know that my Heavy Lokhust Destroyer & Doomstalker are EZB?
But you're right, there's no new xeno characters or EZBs
So how exactly does adding that compair to the 17 primaris Lieutenants and shrike, calgar, Russ, ferros, garraden, slamanders dude.
You either include them all or have to discount them for everyone.
You can't arbitrarily decied that as you have 17 lt they only realy count as 1 model. I dont see 17 models for warboss on sale do you?
Would it make you happier if there were?
No, because then Orks would be receiving a ridiculous fraction of the model support.
Nobody would be happier if their faction was receiving the bonkers level of support that marines are currently getting and everyone else was getting the same fraction they are currently getting. That's not the point and you know it. The point is, the edition has been out for half a year and we've got one single solitary codex for something that's not a space marine. We were gonna get one more in december, but guess which one of the two is coming out and which one is delayed?
The problem is not that some other faction is not receiving special treatment, its that one is. It feels like the game has just been on pause for basically everyone since they announced marines 2.0, and it's extra embarrassing when you look at actions like the recent "index" move - where GW provided free holdover rules for the loyalist marine factions that'd be waiting for a month, and NONE for the chaos marine factions that would be waiting until "whenever we get around to it". CSM are still playing with ancient-ass early 8th gak tier codex rules but we gotta make sure that no Space Wolves player has to play for even THREE SECONDS with W1 Grey Wolf Yiffers alongside the rest of their army which is now W2.
Now now scotsman.
Whilest perfectly understandable, no need to proclaim the SW to be furries.
Also, some factions would be happy to even have CSM style rules available because there are now factions that simply don't work anymore.
And these factions are still better off then the factions that ended up in the FW legends book.
Truth of the matter is: SM sit on top in regards to support but get frankly milked to no end. Especially with the resell ploy for whole armies, aka primaris.
Then there's various degrees of CSM. Which honestly have issues in regards to rules-representation-vision. Excluding TS and DG which are pretty solid from that standpoint. But even these three only really get table scraps. Or shoved around like DG just did.
Then you have the "lucky" xeno faction of the edition, aka that one that get's models and rulessupport this time around with release.
Then you have the bastard tier dexes which are nonfunctional either because a core ability got nerfed and handed to SM (GSC) or a playstyle not able to work with the recent objective rule
Dudeface wrote: If its competitive games its the power that matters for those who want to win/copy those who want to win, the fact there are 17 lietenants isn't a problem there.
If Tau get a stupid op broken book in 3 months I can assure you there will be an upturn in tau players at all levels of the game even if there is no models accompanying. Which is where I think ice_can is missing the point slightly.
That's not what I said.
There really is no way to know what people want to buy outside of GW's sales numbers. The only things we know about these is small bits from old interviews and hearsay (not to be confused with heresy).
The next best thing is the numbers we have from game data trackers, which indicate that marines are played more than any other race, but outside of that model releases don't really match up with their competitive participation - if it were, xenos releases combined should easily outnumber marine releases, which they don't by a long shot.
Last, but not least, I did a poll here on dakka asking this precise question, and marines were roughly on equal footing with other big factions, like craftworlds, orks, guard or CSM. Even if you claim that dakka is not a representative community (there is no proof of that either), it's another indicator.
I'm not really sure what it is you're trying to say, we obviously don't have any empirical evidence for releases vs sales, agreed. But what you're proving is that played games shows it isn't just a marines world, hence the higher volume of releases has less to no correlation with games played in an competitive environment, although your poll suggests that's evident across the game.
So as a conclusion the playerbase isn't 75% marines, marine saturation is simply GW's release schedule and that in essence if you ignore all GW's marketing and sales cycle, there isn't as much of a problem on a game to game basis? Obviously beyond the fact there are more marine players than any other faction, just not as disproportionately as expected based on releases.
People get annoyed as they realise the game is designed around Marines as the Protagonist faction, and Marine players are the protagonists in the game.
Other Imperials are like the plucky sidekick character, sometimes a fan favourite but definitely second string.
Chaos are the big baddies, skeletor style that always talk big but get beaten by the protagonist in the end.
And Xenos are basically NPC factions, just there for colour and variety to give the Space Marines something to beat up in the first scene of the story before the True Threat (chaos) arrives.
That is how 40K is designed, but some Xenos players and even Chaos and Imperial players think they are playing a game about different factions that are roughly equal in esteem and narrative importance. When they realise the truth, that they invested hundreds of dollars or euros or even pounds into their army and it is nothing more than an NPC afterthought designed to have the crap beaten into it to allow Marine players to have their power fantasy, they get upset.
Then they have a choice! They can join the Marines, or maybe get a Chaos faction since that gets a fair amount of attention as the True Threat, or leave the game. There is usually a bit of complaining before they make the choice, because of how much time, money and emotional energy they have invested in their second string faction.
That is ultimately what all these threads are about. It would be better if GW would advertise this up front, but they kinda do in how they group stuff on their site if you look.
Discounting all the chapter specific models, charictors and easy build kits is very disingenuous IMHO as those are all things that no xeno factions got.
I also don't think any other imperial faction has either, I only really remeber deathguard as getting ETB kits so really it's just another way to downplay the raw number of Marine kits GW has saturated the game with since the start of 8th. Not to mention being the only faction on codex 3.0 and their 3 set of supliments.
Did you know that;
Characters:
Orks got a shiny new completely different Grazzkul (sp?) kit There may have been other characters when the Codex landed, but you'd have to ask an Ork player.
Jain Zaar & that Dark Eldar guy don't count?
I have an awful lot of new Necron characters that're new to 9th.
Speaking of Necrons.... Did you know that my Heavy Lokhust Destroyer & Doomstalker are EZB?
But you're right, there's no new xeno characters or EZBs
So how exactly does adding that compair to the 17 primaris Lieutenants and shrike, calgar, Russ, ferros, garraden, slamanders dude.
You either include them all or have to discount them for everyone.
You can't arbitrarily decied that as you have 17 lt they only realy count as 1 model. I dont see 17 models for warboss on sale do you?
Would it make you happier if there were?
No, because then Orks would be receiving a ridiculous fraction of the model support.
Nobody would be happier if their faction was receiving the bonkers level of support that marines are currently getting and everyone else was getting the same fraction they are currently getting. That's not the point and you know it. The point is, the edition has been out for half a year and we've got one single solitary codex for something that's not a space marine. We were gonna get one more in december, but guess which one of the two is coming out and which one is delayed?
The problem is not that some other faction is not receiving special treatment, its that one is. It feels like the game has just been on pause for basically everyone since they announced marines 2.0, and it's extra embarrassing when you look at actions like the recent "index" move - where GW provided free holdover rules for the loyalist marine factions that'd be waiting for a month, and NONE for the chaos marine factions that would be waiting until "whenever we get around to it". CSM are still playing with ancient-ass early 8th gak tier codex rules but we gotta make sure that no Space Wolves player has to play for even THREE SECONDS with W1 Grey Wolf Yiffers alongside the rest of their army which is now W2.
So you think leaving people with no codex at all is less of an issue than having one that needs updating? Agreed they could have done more for chaos though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Something I like to ask on here every few months: what will it take for the complaining to stop?
So you think leaving people with no codex at all is less of an issue than having one that needs updating? Agreed they could have done more for chaos though.
No i think he want's equal long pikes for everyone and not just the fav faction. In this case very much the still stuck with Tacticals CSM which just have to deal with the fact that some 70 y o baby marine has more toughness and grit then the 10'000 year veteran or the maybee younger but still mostly survivng Chaos renegade sitting in the eye of terror.
Which is basically contrafactually to how the big badie even should work.
And let's not go in there in regards to daemons or regular human followers. or the fact that firedragons now get mopped up by a bunch of overgrown plebians in their speciality.
Something I like to ask on here every few months: what will it take for the complaining to stop?
I'm not convinced it ever will tbh.
4 things really:
A: an actual improvement in regards to ruleswriting, this includes actual transparency for rulesdesign betarules and 1-3 Editors capable of proofreading AND technical writing.
B: An actually more evenly spread out release schedule for new stuff AND rules. All non marine factions have either one or the other and some have neither, and marines themselves are also no stranger to just having model support and rules that are just rubbish tier bs.
C: Tied to B, actually asking the community as to WHY a faction doesn't sell, as to avoid decade long desinvestment circles GW is so prone to like SoB.
D: The immediate removal of anything Finecrap and replacement.
Discounting all the chapter specific models, charictors and easy build kits is very disingenuous IMHO as those are all things that no xeno factions got.
I also don't think any other imperial faction has either, I only really remeber deathguard as getting ETB kits so really it's just another way to downplay the raw number of Marine kits GW has saturated the game with since the start of 8th. Not to mention being the only faction on codex 3.0 and their 3 set of supliments.
Did you know that;
Characters:
Orks got a shiny new completely different Grazzkul (sp?) kit There may have been other characters when the Codex landed, but you'd have to ask an Ork player.
Jain Zaar & that Dark Eldar guy don't count?
I have an awful lot of new Necron characters that're new to 9th.
Speaking of Necrons.... Did you know that my Heavy Lokhust Destroyer & Doomstalker are EZB?
But you're right, there's no new xeno characters or EZBs
So how exactly does adding that compair to the 17 primaris Lieutenants and shrike, calgar, Russ, ferros, garraden, slamanders dude.
You either include them all or have to discount them for everyone.
You can't arbitrarily decied that as you have 17 lt they only realy count as 1 model. I dont see 17 models for warboss on sale do you?
Would it make you happier if there were?
No, because then Orks would be receiving a ridiculous fraction of the model support.
Nobody would be happier if their faction was receiving the bonkers level of support that marines are currently getting and everyone else was getting the same fraction they are currently getting. That's not the point and you know it. The point is, the edition has been out for half a year and we've got one single solitary codex for something that's not a space marine. We were gonna get one more in december, but guess which one of the two is coming out and which one is delayed?
The problem is not that some other faction is not receiving special treatment, its that one is. It feels like the game has just been on pause for basically everyone since they announced marines 2.0, and it's extra embarrassing when you look at actions like the recent "index" move - where GW provided free holdover rules for the loyalist marine factions that'd be waiting for a month, and NONE for the chaos marine factions that would be waiting until "whenever we get around to it". CSM are still playing with ancient-ass early 8th gak tier codex rules but we gotta make sure that no Space Wolves player has to play for even THREE SECONDS with W1 Grey Wolf Yiffers alongside the rest of their army which is now W2.
So you think leaving people with no codex at all is less of an issue than having one that needs updating? Agreed they could have done more for chaos though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Something I like to ask on here every few months: what will it take for the complaining to stop?
I'm not convinced it ever will tbh.
What it will take for the complaining to stop is for GW to take a fething break from space marines for even just a couple of months. Do you really not remember the misty past of a year and a half ago, when GW launched primaris at the start of 8th, got them out, and then just....took a break? Gave people a chance to get excited about the other factions for a while? Didn't release a weekly primaris figure like everyone's favorite Power Sword Havin' Toupee Wearin' Ultramarine Fellow? God, how could we forget him, without that guy having his own model how could an ultramarines player possibly feel the flavor of their army - I mean they have hardly any named characters.
You'll notice that basically nobody who plays AOS feels like this about Stormcast, despite stormcast having basically exactly the same Power Fantasy Protagonists of The Setting lore. It's because GW occasionally shuts up about stormcast and lets someone else have the spotlight for three seconds. Every single stormcast chamber does not have their own battletome that takes up a battletome release slot and has the same number of strats and relics and traits as a whole opposing faction. Non-Stormcast AOS players did not have to wait 7 months after the release of 2.0 to get the second non-Stormcast book.
Dudeface wrote: I'm not really sure what it is you're trying to say, we obviously don't have any empirical evidence for releases vs sales, agreed. But what you're proving is that played games shows it isn't just a marines world, hence the higher volume of releases has less to no correlation with games played in an competitive environment, although your poll suggests that's evident across the game.
The TL;DR version would be that there is no data which suggest that marine should be getting the amount of support that they do, much quite some data that supports that they are getting too much.
So as a conclusion the playerbase isn't 75% marines, marine saturation is simply GW's release schedule and that in essence if you ignore all GW's marketing and sales cycle, there isn't as much of a problem on a game to game basis? Obviously beyond the fact there are more marine players than any other faction, just not as disproportionately as expected based on releases.
There clearly is a bias towards people switching to marines because their primary army has no support and stopped being fun to play, with another group of people is switching to marines because the army they would like to play in competitive games simply doesn't do as well as marines.
Discounting all the chapter specific models, charictors and easy build kits is very disingenuous IMHO as those are all things that no xeno factions got.
I also don't think any other imperial faction has either, I only really remeber deathguard as getting ETB kits so really it's just another way to downplay the raw number of Marine kits GW has saturated the game with since the start of 8th. Not to mention being the only faction on codex 3.0 and their 3 set of supliments.
Did you know that;
Characters:
Orks got a shiny new completely different Grazzkul (sp?) kit There may have been other characters when the Codex landed, but you'd have to ask an Ork player.
Jain Zaar & that Dark Eldar guy don't count?
I have an awful lot of new Necron characters that're new to 9th.
Speaking of Necrons.... Did you know that my Heavy Lokhust Destroyer & Doomstalker are EZB?
But you're right, there's no new xeno characters or EZBs
So how exactly does adding that compair to the 17 primaris Lieutenants and shrike, calgar, Russ, ferros, garraden, slamanders dude.
You either include them all or have to discount them for everyone.
You can't arbitrarily decied that as you have 17 lt they only realy count as 1 model. I dont see 17 models for warboss on sale do you?
Would it make you happier if there were?
No, because then Orks would be receiving a ridiculous fraction of the model support.
Nobody would be happier if their faction was receiving the bonkers level of support that marines are currently getting and everyone else was getting the same fraction they are currently getting. That's not the point and you know it. The point is, the edition has been out for half a year and we've got one single solitary codex for something that's not a space marine. We were gonna get one more in december, but guess which one of the two is coming out and which one is delayed?
The problem is not that some other faction is not receiving special treatment, its that one is. It feels like the game has just been on pause for basically everyone since they announced marines 2.0, and it's extra embarrassing when you look at actions like the recent "index" move - where GW provided free holdover rules for the loyalist marine factions that'd be waiting for a month, and NONE for the chaos marine factions that would be waiting until "whenever we get around to it". CSM are still playing with ancient-ass early 8th gak tier codex rules but we gotta make sure that no Space Wolves player has to play for even THREE SECONDS with W1 Grey Wolf Yiffers alongside the rest of their army which is now W2.
So you think leaving people with no codex at all is less of an issue than having one that needs updating? Agreed they could have done more for chaos though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Something I like to ask on here every few months: what will it take for the complaining to stop?
I'm not convinced it ever will tbh.
What it will take for the complaining to stop is for GW to take a fething break from space marines for even just a couple of months. Do you really not remember the misty past of a year and a half ago, when GW launched primaris at the start of 8th, got them out, and then just....took a break? Gave people a chance to get excited about the other factions for a while? Didn't release a weekly primaris figure like everyone's favorite Power Sword Havin' Toupee Wearin' Ultramarine Fellow? God, how could we forget him, without that guy having his own model how could an ultramarines player possibly feel the flavor of their army - I mean they have hardly any named characters.
You'll notice that basically nobody who plays AOS feels like this about Stormcast, despite stormcast having basically exactly the same Power Fantasy Protagonists of The Setting lore. It's because GW occasionally shuts up about stormcast and lets someone else have the spotlight for three seconds. Every single stormcast chamber does not have their own battletome that takes up a battletome release slot and has the same number of strats and relics and traits as a whole opposing faction. Non-Stormcast AOS players did not have to wait 7 months after the release of 2.0 to get the second non-Stormcast book.
Nor has 40k, codex necrons says hi. Marine complaints predate 8th. There have been complaints at multiple marine books, the fact there was a blood angels tactical squad, a tactical squad, a dark angels tactical squad which was a tactical squad with an upgrade sprue.
None of this is tied to 8/9th and a 6/9/12/24 month break won't change it. The second there's anything else for them it'll be back to the same complaints.
I want them to ease off now and hope they will after January and the last of the new models are out, there is a risk the old supplements will get a go-over at some point but honestly I can live with that.
I want to see an eldar revamp, I want to see some renegade and heretics, but its just tiring when they just get burdened with "oh they're not as good/got less than marines" and everything becomes a marine comparison 24/7.
The black library model of ventris, top of page 2 before "omg moar marines!!!" comments, but its a celebration mini of a long standing character. It doesn't need marine complaints stacking on it for example.
GW has over done it with marines, they always have to some degree, but the only thing I find more tiring than constant marine releases is constant complaints about constant marine releases.
I feel like the Marine comparisons are inevitable due to two reasons: firstly they are the poster faction for the game, secondly everyone basically has a Marine army of some ilk meaning that they're going to compare the two, even if they do so subconciously.
That said, the community loves to mine for salt, so any complaint will be blown out of proportion and then once that horse is beaten to death it is paraded around for ages as proof of that faction's sins.
Now that's not to say GW doesn't need to chill out with Marine releases a bit, and the advent calendar at least shows some stuff that looks Ministorum, and the only thing that looks like power armour looks human, not Astartes so stuff is coming, but unfortunately not before Dark Angels drop in Jan, and DG likely drop around the same time.
The complaints will continue because peoples expectations will continue to fail to align with reality. There are always new people realising how the game actually is (vs. how it is marketed to them in their factions book) and making threads like this, because they were not expecting it to be like this.
Eventually, people like that (I was one of them) realise that complaining is a pointless waste of energy, but we will always be replaced by someone new because someone is always going through that disenchantment.
So for the complaints to stop GW would have to make the expectation match up to the reality by either changing the expectation or changing the reality.
ClockworkZion wrote: I feel like the Marine comparisons are inevitable due to two reasons: firstly they are the poster faction for the game, secondly everyone basically has a Marine army of some ilk meaning that they're going to compare the two, even if they do so subconciously.
That said, the community loves to mine for salt, so any complaint will be blown out of proportion and then once that horse is beaten to death it is paraded around for ages as proof of that faction's sins.
Now that's not to say GW doesn't need to chill out with Marine releases a bit, and the advent calendar at least shows some stuff that looks Ministorum, and the only thing that looks like power armour looks human, not Astartes so stuff is coming, but unfortunately not before Dark Angels drop in Jan, and DG likely drop around the same time.
I think this sums it up best for me, thank you. I agree I think if people sit tight, the next 12 months should be fairly light on power armour I expect.
If it's any consolation, was discussing in an oldhammer thread a while ago about the change from 1st to 2nd edition 40k.
Just before 2nd edition an update (Compendium or Compilation, always forget which one) that increased marines from T3 to T4. I still remember a guy in a shop (because no internet to write on back then!) complaining that there would be even more marine players than there already were, and the marines were already over-powered and this would make them more so.
This was on the back of marines already being the predominant army, anecdotally everyone had at least 1 of the RTB01 (beakie marine) boxsets because they looked awesome compared to the Ork set, and as Marines were more expensive points wise you needed less to play the game. So Orks were outnumbered immediately in terms of players, and even when the Imperial Guard, Squat and Eldar sets came out obviously they had catching up to do and you never saw as many of them.
So this kind of discussion has been going on probably since the late 80s! Unfortunately (or fortunately) the guys in should pads will always be the poster boys for GW, and if anything those shoulder pads will keep getting larger
Jidmah wrote: There are 20 factions with codices out there.
They essentially are doing releases roughly twice a month now, so it's not rocket science to just spread releases evenly across 12 months.
Heck, they'd even have four slots left to do chapter-specific releases so the snowflake chapters keep their identity and for stuff like ynnari, inquisition or assassins.
I mean they kind of are, there is a logical need to put the supplements out first to replace the now redundant codecii. So factoring that in they're forced to front load the marine supplements and then they're spreading out the marine models over several months so there isn't too much at once. Seemingly the same with crons but less so.
Given there are now 4 fewer marine dex, that's a net gain long term for everyone else in theory.
The supplements should have either been releases WITH the space marine codex in one shot. Or be the last "codexes" to come out since BA/DA/SW are still playable when using only the SM codex.
So how exactly does adding that compair to the 17 primaris Lieutenants and shrike, calgar, Russ, ferros, garraden, slamanders dude.
You either include them all or have to discount them for everyone.
You can't arbitrarily decied that as you have 17 lt they only realy count as 1 model. I dont see 17 models for warboss on sale do you?
Would it make you happier if there were?
No, i'd rather the time spent designing these models be spent deisgning models for other armies.
if you get rid of 16 lieutenants, you get almost one new release per army.
Why do loyalists NEED another variant of a lieutenant? Why can't csm get some legion-specific units, Craftworld new sculpts for finecast stuff, admech a skitarii HQ, Drukhari some HQ with mobility options, Harlequins litteraly anything to get the codex options in the double digits.
Thats why i personally find it annoying to see yet again "OMGZ A NEW FIRSTBORNEE CROSSES DA RUBICON!!!!"
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Jidmah wrote: A theory that really hasn't ever been proven.
Just because most people are taking marines to competitive games, doesn't mean that they wouldn't take another army if it had the same power/support.
And thats assuming that only the competitive scene makes GW money. The real indicator would be to see which armies the casual scene plays but thats not really possible.
I would assume the garagehammer players represent a much bigger % than the tournament players
So as a conclusion the playerbase isn't 75% marines, marine saturation is simply GW's release schedule and that in essence if you ignore all GW's marketing and sales cycle, there isn't as much of a problem on a game to game basis? Obviously beyond the fact there are more marine players than any other faction, just not as disproportionately as expected based on releases.
There clearly is a bias towards people switching to marines because their primary army has no support and stopped being fun to play, with another group of people is switching to marines because the army they would like to play in competitive games simply doesn't do as well as marines.
I know that there has been a decent exodus of people locally into Marines due to the support and the strength of the recent Space Marine books. The current support GW is providing Marines is tilting the playerbase into a single faction in many ways.
The recent uptake is likely the same how a lot of people took up Necrons recently and who took up Sisters of Battle earlier in the year. Big shiny model releases get attention.
I'm sure as other armies get big updates they'll get an uptick in customers too.
Also don't forget its a new edition and at present Marines and Necrons are the only armies with 9th edition rules.
So as a conclusion the playerbase isn't 75% marines, marine saturation is simply GW's release schedule and that in essence if you ignore all GW's marketing and sales cycle, there isn't as much of a problem on a game to game basis? Obviously beyond the fact there are more marine players than any other faction, just not as disproportionately as expected based on releases.
There clearly is a bias towards people switching to marines because their primary army has no support and stopped being fun to play, with another group of people is switching to marines because the army they would like to play in competitive games simply doesn't do as well as marines.
I know that there has been a decent exodus of people locally into Marines due to the support and the strength of the recent Space Marine books. The current support GW is providing Marines is tilting the playerbase into a single faction in many ways.
Same here. Currently especially tau, TS and CSM players are currently breaking out their marine armies more often than their main armies.
So as a conclusion the playerbase isn't 75% marines, marine saturation is simply GW's release schedule and that in essence if you ignore all GW's marketing and sales cycle, there isn't as much of a problem on a game to game basis? Obviously beyond the fact there are more marine players than any other faction, just not as disproportionately as expected based on releases.
There clearly is a bias towards people switching to marines because their primary army has no support and stopped being fun to play, with another group of people is switching to marines because the army they would like to play in competitive games simply doesn't do as well as marines.
I know that there has been a decent exodus of people locally into Marines due to the support and the strength of the recent Space Marine books. The current support GW is providing Marines is tilting the playerbase into a single faction in many ways.
Yep. Once again, when play petered out locally, the last couple of weeks where people tried to set up in-person games was just 2-3 people going
"hey, looking to bring my Blood Angels, played against marines the last few weeks so like to have a different opponent this time..."
"Got my salamanders, any non-marine players want to get a game in?"
"Have my ultramarines, would really like to purge some xenos!"
...and then nobody ended up having a game set up. Obviously, the major reason for the petering out was covid, but this isn't the first, or the second, or the third time I've seen nobody end up playing games in a given week because everyone is just playing marines, everyone is sick of marines, but nobody is willing to be the ones to willingly get steamrolled by playing something other than marines. It's almost like this has been going basically non-stop since Codex 2.0 what, a year and a half ago?
GW made 17 lieutenants cuz they're lazy. coulda just made 2-3 and given them options included in the kit. but they'd rather "make" you buy (X) different kits.
Racerguy180 wrote: GW made 17 lieutenants cuz they're lazy. coulda just made 2-3 and given them options included in the kit. but they'd rather "make" you buy (X) different kits.
I wouldn't say GW is lazy. Misapplying their energies and over focusing on Marines, sure, but not lazy. Making 17 kits instead of one is the opposite of lazy.
But when they're all basically the same, single primaris sized astartes, it is very easy to change little things and bam....17 lieutenants. That is kinda lazy considering the amount of work they'd need to do for Orks, Eldar, etc...
Racerguy180 wrote: But when they're all basically the same, single primaris sized astartes, it is very easy to change little things and bam....17 lieutenants. That is kinda lazy considering the amount of work they'd need to do for Orks, Eldar, etc...
Except they're in different poses, and the Phobos and Bladeguard varients aren't even wearing the same wargear.
Yeah, I've been a loyal customer and since 9th I've purchased all the content GW has put out for Orks, Genestealer Cults, Thousand Sons, Tzeentch Daemons, Drukhari and Harlequins! I'm such a loyal customer.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, I've been a loyal customer and since 9th I've purchased all the content GW has put out for Orks, Genestealer Cults, Thousand Sons, Tzeentch Daemons, Drukhari and Harlequins! I'm such a loyal customer.
Nice, alternatively you could have had to spend £180 on codecii in a 6 month window.
Oh, you had to buy every new release? I wasn't aware that playing marines came with such an obligation
That said, 180GBP is just barely less than all of the ork releases of 8th combined as well (212 GBP, including Da Red Gobbo). Which only goes to show that every wave of marines could easily have been spread across 3 years.
Jidmah wrote: Oh, you had to buy every new release? I wasn't aware that playing marines came with such an obligation
That said, 180GBP is just barely less than all of the ork releases of 8th combined as well (212 GBP, including Da Red Gobbo). Which only goes to show that every wave of marines could easily have been spread across 3 years.
I meant if all the factions scotsman listed had gotten a release of codex at a minimum, they'd be down £180 + figures.
Since you know, only marines getting books in an injustice and everyone is desperate to hurl money for other factions, should be a small price to pay.
I play Space Wolves and Harlequins for 40k. I will say that 9th edition has created a huge interest in playing 40k in my club. Before 9th, we had a lot of AOS and specialist games being played, and that's all been pushed aside for 40k, as we've really been enjoying the missions and game.
Granted, I'd love to play more AOS and Warcry, but I'm pretty happy playing 40k. We do have a lot of space marines (I think everyone in the club has a space marine army), so I've been playing my harlequins more recently. Really looking forward to our 9th edition book.
But, I think pretty much all the games going on right now in our club are pretty much Dark Angels vs Necrons at the moment lol. Or Dark Angels Vs Dark Angels/marines.
The funny thing is, while I own almost all the new primaris stuff and more intercessor variants than I want to count I have only played 1 game with Marines out of the 12 or so I have played of 9th. That game was with Space Wolves and only used one primaris model! I have been playing my Alpha Legion army almost exclusively and have faced Emperor's Children, Drukahri, Night Lords, and Dark Angels. Only one of those armies had primaris. All of these stories are anecdotal in the end but I for sure understand the anger and irritation. I have a Tau army that I am not enjoying and I really want updated Eldar infantry to get back into Craftworld Eldar. But I am patient after so long being involved with GW.
And tell me that its my fault that craftworld aren't getting more love because i don't want to bend over for daddy GW.
It's also not just "5 vs 10 for basically the same price" the howling banshee kit is borderline monopose. the only bits that are in any way swappable are 5 masks for 5 identical bare faces, and 1 model can be made as either an exarch or a regular banshee. If it was a good kit, with a bunch of different arm poses and full head and torso poseability like the Harlequin Troupe box I might be able to overlook the lack of options and numbers for the price, but the fact that every box must have 4 models built exactly identically in the exact same exaggerated poses meant it was a kit I was only ever going to buy 1 of.
And tell me that its my fault that craftworld aren't getting more love because i don't want to bend over for daddy GW.
It's also not just "5 vs 10 for basically the same price" the howling banshee kit is borderline monopose. the only bits that are in any way swappable are 5 masks for 5 identical bare faces, and 1 model can be made as either an exarch or a regular banshee. If it was a good kit, with a bunch of different arm poses and full head and torso poseability like the Harlequin Troupe box I might be able to overlook the lack of options and numbers for the price, but the fact that every box must have 4 models built exactly identically in the exact same exaggerated poses meant it was a kit I was only ever going to buy 1 of.
yeah, i know. Everything about the kit is ridiculous. The models look great, but i'd expect the kit to either come with 10 models or be half the price it currently is.
Not to mention the Blood of the phoenix box that was even more of an insult.
And tell me that its my fault that craftworld aren't getting more love because i don't want to bend over for daddy GW.
It's also not just "5 vs 10 for basically the same price" the howling banshee kit is borderline monopose. the only bits that are in any way swappable are 5 masks for 5 identical bare faces, and 1 model can be made as either an exarch or a regular banshee. If it was a good kit, with a bunch of different arm poses and full head and torso poseability like the Harlequin Troupe box I might be able to overlook the lack of options and numbers for the price, but the fact that every box must have 4 models built exactly identically in the exact same exaggerated poses meant it was a kit I was only ever going to buy 1 of.
This is fairly normal now though, chaos marines, sisters and crons are all the same.
But isn't it the of pink razors here? Intercessors are going to be bought by a large number of player, banshees will not. To create the metal thingies to make models the cost is more or less what ever you make 5 intercessors or 5 banshees. So banshees to generate the assigned goal income for GW have to cost more.
If there were as many eldar players as marine players, buying loads of banshees for each of their eldar army, they could cost less. And GW then could think about options and making alaitoc banshees different from those of other craftworlds. But this is not the case so eldar players have to pay more. It was their choice to pick the army, not GWs.
This is fairly normal now though, chaos marines, sisters and crons are all the same.
All the kits you listed are 10-man.
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Karol wrote: But isn't it the of pink razors here? Intercessors are going to be bought by a large number of player, banshees will not. To create the metal thingies to make models the cost is more or less what ever you make 5 intercessors or 5 banshees. So banshees to generate the assigned goal income for GW have to cost more.
If there were as many eldar players as marine players, buying loads of banshees for each of their eldar army, they could cost less. And GW then could think about options and making alaitoc banshees different from those of other craftworlds. But this is not the case so eldar players have to pay more. It was their choice to pick the army, not GWs.
I can run 30 banshees in my craftworlds. Instead i run zero because im not paying for the overpriced kit (at least not from GW). So instead of making a little bit of money from me buying 1-2 boxes, they make zero money. And then , tell me why a box of 5 Possessed is cheaper than a box of 5 banshees. Both kits arent troops, both kits are melee-only units, possessed have actual customisation, banshees dont. And before you tell us that "nobody plays craftworld anyway", polls on here showed that about the same amount of people play marines play craftworld.
Oh and you chose to play GK even tho they sucked, it was you choice, not GW's.
I can run 30 banshees in my craftworlds. Instead i run zero because im not paying for the overpriced kit (at least not from GW). So instead of making a little bit of money from me buying 1-2 boxes, they make zero money. And then , tell me why a box of 5 Possessed is cheaper than a box of 5 banshees. Both kits arent troops, both kits are melee-only units, possessed have actual customisation, banshees dont. And before you tell us that "nobody plays craftworld anyway", polls on here showed that about the same amount of people play marines play craftworld.
It matters less what ever a unit is troops or elite, although GW does seem to price elite ones a bit higher. It is all about the number of units GW can make, how much molds cost and how many people buy the models. What is the difference of number of buyers of an intercessor box and any eldar unit? 5 to1, maybe 10 to 1. this means GW is not incited to make more marine units to make more money, but the less often bought units have to generate a higher income from smaller sells. What would you want that eldar models cost as much as marines, but generat something which in GW eyes is a lose?
Oh and you chose to play GK even tho they sucked, it was you choice, not GW's.
yes, but I don't see how my situation has anything to do with GW sells policy.
This is fairly normal now though, chaos marines, sisters and crons are all the same.
All the kits you listed are 10-man.
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Karol wrote: But isn't it the of pink razors here? Intercessors are going to be bought by a large number of player, banshees will not. To create the metal thingies to make models the cost is more or less what ever you make 5 intercessors or 5 banshees. So banshees to generate the assigned goal income for GW have to cost more.
If there were as many eldar players as marine players, buying loads of banshees for each of their eldar army, they could cost less. And GW then could think about options and making alaitoc banshees different from those of other craftworlds. But this is not the case so eldar players have to pay more. It was their choice to pick the army, not GWs.
I can run 30 banshees in my craftworlds. Instead i run zero because im not paying for the overpriced kit (at least not from GW). So instead of making a little bit of money from me buying 1-2 boxes, they make zero money. And then , tell me why a box of 5 Possessed is cheaper than a box of 5 banshees. Both kits arent troops, both kits are melee-only units, possessed have actual customisation, banshees dont. And before you tell us that "nobody plays craftworld anyway", polls on here showed that about the same amount of people play marines play craftworld.
Oh and you chose to play GK even tho they sucked, it was you choice, not GW's.
Christ fine, havocs - weapon swaps only, terminators - limited posing and weapon swaps, retributors - weapon swaps only, seraphim/zephyrim - limited posing and minor differences between units, I.e. weapon swaps and a slightly different backpack.
All 5 man boxes of comparative age and price. Sorry if I misremembered any of them.
Just to key off your last point to Karol, players choose to pick space marines, not GW.
And tell me that its my fault that craftworld aren't getting more love because i don't want to bend over for daddy GW.
It's also not just "5 vs 10 for basically the same price" the howling banshee kit is borderline monopose. the only bits that are in any way swappable are 5 masks for 5 identical bare faces, and 1 model can be made as either an exarch or a regular banshee. If it was a good kit, with a bunch of different arm poses and full head and torso poseability like the Harlequin Troupe box I might be able to overlook the lack of options and numbers for the price, but the fact that every box must have 4 models built exactly identically in the exact same exaggerated poses meant it was a kit I was only ever going to buy 1 of.
This is fairly normal now though, chaos marines, sisters and crons are all the same.
Crons' 5-man kits at this price point are dual-unit kits that typically have 3-4 sets of weapon options (Lychguard with scythes, lychguard with swords, praets with staffs, praets with casters as an example)
Sisters' 5-woman kits at this price point are single unit kits with multiple weapon options and multiple options. The retributors kit comes with 2 cherubs, 6 heavy weapons, sergeant optional wargear and 23 different heads, all unique.The banshees kit comes with ONLY sergeant wargear.
The Banshee kit was like someone was deliberately trying to sabotage the kit to sell poorly.
Like seriously who thought that 5 banshee's in mono pose with no weapon options demanded the same price as a devestator squad?
Like seriously they are more than most 10 model troops with 0 options and don't even justify it via size (though that is usually a poor parallel for prices)
Christ fine, havocs - weapon swaps only, terminators - limited posing and weapon swaps, retributors - weapon swaps only, seraphim/zephyrim - limited posing and minor differences between units, I.e. weapon swaps and a slightly different backpack.
All 5 man boxes of comparative age and price. Sorry if I misremembered any of them.
Just to key off your last point to Karol, players choose to pick space marines, not GW.
Edit: ooh eliminators: 3 man £30 fixed poses
all the models you listed are chunky models with lots of plastic on them. I'm pretty sure 5 banshees have less plastic in them than 3 eradicators.
My quip at Karol was in response to his "It was their choice to pick the army, not GWs." comment. He seems to forget how much he was crying non stop about his GK in 8th.
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Ice_can wrote: The Banshee kit was like someone was deliberately trying to sabotage the kit to sell poorly.
Like seriously who thought that 5 banshee's in mono pose with no weapon options demanded the same price as a devestator squad?
Like seriously they are more than most 10 model troops with 0 options and don't even justify it via size (though that is usually a poor parallel for prices)
it really does, and the size comparison is valid when the kit has nothing else to go for itself.
If eradicators were terrible rules-wise, you could still at least use their size to justify their price
This is fairly normal now though, chaos marines, sisters and crons are all the same.
All the kits you listed are 10-man.
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Karol wrote: But isn't it the of pink razors here? Intercessors are going to be bought by a large number of player, banshees will not. To create the metal thingies to make models the cost is more or less what ever you make 5 intercessors or 5 banshees. So banshees to generate the assigned goal income for GW have to cost more.
If there were as many eldar players as marine players, buying loads of banshees for each of their eldar army, they could cost less. And GW then could think about options and making alaitoc banshees different from those of other craftworlds. But this is not the case so eldar players have to pay more. It was their choice to pick the army, not GWs.
I can run 30 banshees in my craftworlds. Instead i run zero because im not paying for the overpriced kit (at least not from GW). So instead of making a little bit of money from me buying 1-2 boxes, they make zero money. And then , tell me why a box of 5 Possessed is cheaper than a box of 5 banshees. Both kits arent troops, both kits are melee-only units, possessed have actual customisation, banshees dont. And before you tell us that "nobody plays craftworld anyway", polls on here showed that about the same amount of people play marines play craftworld.
Oh and you chose to play GK even tho they sucked, it was you choice, not GW's.
I don't want to pick a fight, but aren't you comparing a kit release in 8th with one released in 4th by comparing Banshees to Possessed?
I won't disagree, the Banshees where phoned in, but there is at least a 15 year gap between releases in that comparison.
I don't want to pick a fight, but aren't you comparing a kit release in 8th with one released in 4th by comparing Banshees to Possessed?
I won't disagree, the Banshees where phoned in, but there is at least a 15 year gap between releases in that comparison.
I am not sure what the fight would suppose to be about. GW does not care how old something is or was. From what I understand stuff like plastic IG or imperial tanks cost a lot less for identical models in the past. They also don't seem to care about quality of some of their models, like the plastic khorn demons or their resin models. Only the now exists for them. And it makes sense, no one is going to keep a job because he sold models well X years ago.
As long as people buy stuff GW will sell them stuff, and the cost of the stuff is going to be made to be same with similar units that is not that old or fresh made.
I don't know what patern GW use to set the cost of their base of elite units, that aren't marines. But a box of 5 old plastic and 5 resin and 5 new plastic are probably going to cost the same.
I polish currancy 5 dire avengers cost the same as 5 dark reapers. And from what I understand the DA are plastic and Dark reapers are ancient resin models. And all those 5 model boxs cost only a little less then 10 guardians.
VladimirHerzog wrote: And then , tell me why a box of 5 Possessed is cheaper than a box of 5 banshees
Same reason a rhino/razorback kit is more than 20% cheaper than a sisters rhino. It's what GW think they can sell it for.
they know they will sell a specific number of marine rhinos, and assume they will sell fewer SoB ones. And as molds, work time and material cost more or less the same for either of those, the SoB rhino has to cost more to cover the the difference in number of units sold. I mean GW is not selling even marine characters for 1/10th of a cost of an intercessor box, they know they will sell fewer cpts, librarians etc so they have to cost more.
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Dudeface 794465 11002373 wrote:
Christ fine, havocs - weapon swaps only, terminators - limited posing and weapon swaps, retributors - weapon swaps only, seraphim/zephyrim - limited posing and minor differences between units, I.e. weapon swaps and a slightly different backpack.
All 5 man boxes of comparative age and price. Sorry if I misremembered any of them.
Just to key off your last point to Karol, players choose to pick space marines, not GW.
Edit: ooh eliminators: 3 man £30 fixed poses
Okey either this is some english language thing I don't understand or I am too dumb. GW knows how many units of eliminators a marine player can buy , specialy with the rule of 3. I would suprised if they didn't have a spread sheet for stuff like that. Elite support unit that will be bought in 1-3 boxs size has this cost. They clearly have it for HQs. I mean making a primaris Lt doesn't really warrent the cost in comperation to lets say a box of intercessors.
And it even clearly shows in how they price boxs of units. The medium rank start collecting necron/marine box costs almost the same as a box of necron.
Clearly GW assumes that they will be selling more of the first, then of the second. So they are willing to take the lose just to sell more units. While with a necron warrior box GW assumes that those that will buy it would buy it no matter what the price of the box is right now, within some limitations of course.
Karol wrote: And as molds, work time and material cost more or less the same for either of those, the SoB rhino has to cost more to cover the the difference in number of units sold
Circles back around to marine oversaturation. The principle that marines are such a large block of the playerbase that anything not made for marines simply brings in less money and GWs response is to deepen than particularl hole.
I doubt GW have ever released detailed figures even in their financials but i'd be curious to see just what % of their sales are marines and chaos marines over the years, alongside points like big primaris releases, the height of the horus heresy game, the waves of chaos releases a few years back, etc.
Does it really matter why the over saturation is here ? The fact we are arguing why just shows the OP he is correct and it exists, why doesn't matter at this point.
You know the song it's raining men ? Well guess what, those men are the emperors space marines !!
Bosskelot wrote: Whenever this discussion comes up I always have to laugh because of the Marine players agreeing with the central issue people raise, while still saying that they're buying all the new releases anyway.
Well, why shouldn't they? It's not their fault they get given new stuff.
I noticed we had a random metric of marines getting 80% of the releases earlier on here as well which is incredibly incorrect in terms of models, it's easily ess than 50% of 40k releases off top of my head?
Well what did SM's get this and last edition? The entirety of the Primaris range of models, that by itself is dozens of new units. Just searching "primaris" on GW's page brings up 55 results, some aren't new units and some are combinations but you are likely talking about 40+ brand new models.
What have Xenos as an entire monolithic entity got in that same time frame? Orkz and Necrons got new releases...who else? honest question because I am drawing a complete blank and feel rather silly for it but regardless, I think its fair to say Space Marines are receiving more than their fair share of support.
SemperMortis wrote: ...What have Xenos as an entire monolithic entity got in that same time frame? Orkz and Necrons got new releases...who else? honest question because I am drawing a complete blank and feel rather silly for it but regardless, I think its fair to say Space Marines are receiving more than their fair share of support.
Incubi/Drazhar and Banshees/Jain Zar. GSC support characters. Riptide variants and Tau'nar from Forge World.
SemperMortis wrote: ...What have Xenos as an entire monolithic entity got in that same time frame? Orkz and Necrons got new releases...who else? honest question because I am drawing a complete blank and feel rather silly for it but regardless, I think its fair to say Space Marines are receiving more than their fair share of support.
Incubi/Drazhar and Banshees/Jain Zar. GSC support characters. Riptide variants and Tau'nar from Forge World.
I'm not including Forge World in this it would be annoying to say the least.
Also, rather telling that the "new" units are old units with new/plastic sculpts for the most part. Actually, the only "new" unit you mentioned would be GSC characters lol.
I don't want to pick a fight, but aren't you comparing a kit release in 8th with one released in 4th by comparing Banshees to Possessed?
I won't disagree, the Banshees where phoned in, but there is at least a 15 year gap between releases in that comparison.
I am not sure what the fight would suppose to be about. GW does not care how old something is or was. From what I understand stuff like plastic IG or imperial tanks cost a lot less for identical models in the past. They also don't seem to care about quality of some of their models, like the plastic khorn demons or their resin models. Only the now exists for them. And it makes sense, no one is going to keep a job because he sold models well X years ago.
As long as people buy stuff GW will sell them stuff, and the cost of the stuff is going to be made to be same with similar units that is not that old or fresh made.
I don't know what patern GW use to set the cost of their base of elite units, that aren't marines. But a box of 5 old plastic and 5 resin and 5 new plastic are probably going to cost the same.
I polish currancy 5 dire avengers cost the same as 5 dark reapers. And from what I understand the DA are plastic and Dark reapers are ancient resin models. And all those 5 model boxs cost only a little less then 10 guardians.
I didn't want to trigger an arguement, just wanted to point out that different kits made with different technology, with different mold tooling, and likely different wages aren't really 1:1 comparable for cost.
Ice_can wrote: The Banshee kit was like someone was deliberately trying to sabotage the kit to sell poorly.
Like seriously who thought that 5 banshee's in mono pose with no weapon options demanded the same price as a devestator squad?
Like seriously they are more than most 10 model troops with 0 options and don't even justify it via size (though that is usually a poor parallel for prices)
Yup, plus being put in that Blood of the Phoenix box initially. I'm guessing there's some internal politics at GW where someone is trying to sabotage all non-Primaris releases to make it seem like they're a better idea than they really are.
Ice_can wrote: The Banshee kit was like someone was deliberately trying to sabotage the kit to sell poorly.
Like seriously who thought that 5 banshee's in mono pose with no weapon options demanded the same price as a devestator squad?
Like seriously they are more than most 10 model troops with 0 options and don't even justify it via size (though that is usually a poor parallel for prices)
Yup, plus being put in that Blood of the Phoenix box initially. I'm guessing there's some internal politics at GW where someone is trying to sabotage all non-Primaris releases to make it seem like they're a better idea than they really are.
I imagine the more likely answer is that the studio banged out a direct update to the existing models, added in a Ynnari head option and that was it. I imagine the lack of additional options was to keep them true to concept, or they couldn't think of any wargear that fit Banshees properly in time. But I assume incompetence over malice when it comes to GW shooting itself in the foot.
Bosskelot wrote: Whenever this discussion comes up I always have to laugh because of the Marine players agreeing with the central issue people raise, while still saying that they're buying all the new releases anyway.
Well, why shouldn't they? It's not their fault they get given new stuff.
I noticed we had a random metric of marines getting 80% of the releases earlier on here as well which is incredibly incorrect in terms of models, it's easily ess than 50% of 40k releases off top of my head?
Well what did SM's get this and last edition? The entirety of the Primaris range of models, that by itself is dozens of new units. Just searching "primaris" on GW's page brings up 55 results, some aren't new units and some are combinations but you are likely talking about 40+ brand new models.
What have Xenos as an entire monolithic entity got in that same time frame? Orkz and Necrons got new releases...who else? honest question because I am drawing a complete blank and feel rather silly for it but regardless, I think its fair to say Space Marines are receiving more than their fair share of support.
Well aside from space marines there was an ork release, stealer cults, ad mech, necrons, entire sisters range, custodes, new knights and chaos knights, 2 waves of daemons, chaos space marine wave and the full death guard faction.
Oh I forgot the eldar and dark eldar units, ill lump them grudgingly into an aeldari release.
SemperMortis wrote: ...What have Xenos as an entire monolithic entity got in that same time frame? Orkz and Necrons got new releases...who else? honest question because I am drawing a complete blank and feel rather silly for it but regardless, I think its fair to say Space Marines are receiving more than their fair share of support.
Incubi/Drazhar and Banshees/Jain Zar. GSC support characters. Riptide variants and Tau'nar from Forge World.
All of those were pre 8th.
The 8th edition FW releases have been Marine based too.
Astraus then 30k with marines, custodes and knights.
Some of these releases were very small though, the number of Lts alone for marines equals most of the character models of other factions. I'd love to see the model kit listings, as well as codex given, supplements, etc.
There just has been a ton of marines and they seemingly are without end for their release window as opposed to other factions which get some stuff, and then nothing for a long time.
With Banshees and BotP the more likely explanation is that it was an experiment to see exactly how desperate people were for new plastic Aspects and Phoenix Lords and whether GW could nickel and dime Aeldari collectors/players as hard as they do Marines.
Because it's not just that Marines get a lot of players, but the faction has some real fething whales (to use app and videogame terminology for a second) in it too that will buy bundles of stuff because it has a Marine on it. The sheer amount of screenshots I've seen of people buying 9 ATV's, 9 Turrets or 9 Gladiators (despite being able to magnetize the model) is actually absurd. These same people probably buy the ebooks of every single new Marine book on release day too. By comparison, I've seen a lot of people buying the new Necron stuff in droves, but they're doing reasonable stuff like focusing on the models they like first and buying maybe a duplicate. I've yet to see triple Monolith hauls with 6 boxes of Ophydians to go with it. And the effectiveness of the models on the table has no impact here before you bring it up; Firestrike Servoturrets and Gladiator Tanks are not exactly breaking the meta right now.
Bosskelot wrote: With Banshees and BotP the more likely explanation is that it was an experiment to see exactly how desperate people were for new plastic Aspects and Phoenix Lords and whether GW could nickel and dime Aeldari collectors/players as hard as they do Marines.
Because it's not just that Marines get a lot of players, but the faction has some real fething whales (to use app and videogame terminology for a second) in it too that will buy bundles of stuff because it has a Marine on it. The sheer amount of screenshots I've seen of people buying 9 ATV's, 9 Turrets or 9 Gladiators (despite being able to magnetize the model) is actually absurd. These same people probably buy the ebooks of every single new Marine book on release day too. By comparison, I've seen a lot of people buying the new Necron stuff in droves, but they're doing reasonable stuff like focusing on the models they like first and buying maybe a duplicate. I've yet to see triple Monolith hauls with 6 boxes of Ophydians to go with it. And the effectiveness of the models on the table has no impact here before you bring it up; Firestrike Servoturrets and Gladiator Tanks are not exactly breaking the meta right now.
Wild. Are these the kinds of people who post pics to facebook groups of their "haul" i.e. all their minis still in boxes?
No, he literally bought two cupboards to hold boxes of sprues :rolleyes:
It's worth noting that he doesn't own any marines though, it's all TS and necrons.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Some of these releases were very small though, the number of Lts alone for marines equals most of the character models of other factions. I'd love to see the model kit listings, as well as codex given, supplements, etc.
There just has been a ton of marines and they seemingly are without end for their release window as opposed to other factions which get some stuff, and then nothing for a long time.
If I ever get insanely bored (it will happen), I'll one day put the list together, but again I'd point out that buying a codex and nigh mandatory supplement every year isn't good.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Some of these releases were very small though, the number of Lts alone for marines equals most of the character models of other factions. I'd love to see the model kit listings, as well as codex given, supplements, etc.
There just has been a ton of marines and they seemingly are without end for their release window as opposed to other factions which get some stuff, and then nothing for a long time.
If I ever get insanely bored (it will happen), I'll one day put the list together, but again I'd point out that buying a codex and nigh mandatory supplement every year isn't good.
I may be a broken record by now, but rules are a buissness for GW, one they invest minimally into (cue the gakky quality) and make dosh over them fixing up their gakky quality, and marines tend to be the easiest sold and have the highest ammount of potential sales aswell as probably a rather easily monetised playerbase.
The issue isn't the marine players, i doubt the veterans of the faction are okay with this.
The harsh matter is, that GW found a way to further monetise the faction via "consolidation" in a way that is the worst possible scenario for the custommer base as a whole. I doubt marine players would be opposed to a propper consolidation e.g all the rules in one book, but that doesn't make as much money. Then again GW also managed to resell marine players their own army again with primaris.
A.T. 794465 11002526 wrote:Circles back around to marine oversaturation. The principle that marines are such a large block of the playerbase that anything not made for marines simply brings in less money and GWs response is to deepen than particularl hole.
I doubt GW have ever released detailed figures even in their financials but i'd be curious to see just what % of their sales are marines and chaos marines over the years, alongside points like big primaris releases, the height of the horus heresy game, the waves of chaos releases a few years back, etc.
No there is no over saturation if there are buyers for something. There is no over saturation of male razors in the market over female ones. Males just require and buy more of them, so the prices for theirs are different. Even if the only differen tthing about them is the box or colour.
If GW over night decided to sell and produce 10 model boxs of any non marine factions it would not jump to sell numbers marines have. Worse GW would be risking, that unlike with marines, less popular models would not sell. And less popular models, again, do not cost less to design or produce. GW producers marines because marines sell more, they sell more of the hyper powerful stuff, and of the bad stuff too.
If GW makes a box of banshees then it is a box of bansheers which eldar players will buy. If GW makes a box of heavy intercessors a BA/DA/SW/DW and marine players will buy it.
As for a sales numbers I remember Jes Goodwin saying that marines outsell other games GW makes. But even if he was telling a lie, which could be a real or partial lie, as he didn't supply any numbers. I still have my doubts that the numbers somehow are marines 35% of everything sold and eldar being 34% of things sold, and eldar players being ,for some unexplained reason, treated bad by GW.
Other miniature games prove that GW's pricing is not necessary in the slightest.
They do it because they can.
Like Apple charging you an extra £500 because they removed the headphone jack and no longer include a charger, because they can.
GW's playerbase is fiercely loyal and often people won't even *consider* the possibility of playing another game or that GW is milking them.
Which just allows GW to continue.
I like to point at the app as an example. A lot of people hold an opinion of "I know it's crap, but you can't expect perfection and I'm supporting it now so that GW can improve it/the army builder will be here soon".
To a certain extent, I get it. 40k is an absolutely awesome setting, and in spite of the fact that I absolutely detest GW's constant milking, and don't even really like the rules, I'm still considering starting a new army. But every time I plan even a small army, the £200-300 of models/books required is a slap in the face.
The app and many apple products are a bad example, because you can objectively judge those. For software (and hardware) you can put the requirements against the features it a has, and when it doesn't fulfill you requirements, it's a bad piece of software/hardware.
For the game and the models, that is much more difficult. Essentially the only metrics are "do you like the models?" and "is the game fun", both of which are highly subjective.
To me, 8th and 9th edition are lots of fun, and since I have found a way to regularly buy models and books without overspending, I have no large issues with their prices. There are some models which I simply won't buy because of the price (DG reinforcements, for example), but that's just how it is.
There also is the issue of having people to play with, and other games looking interesting. For example I can't find anyone willing to play WM/H with me, and while both Malifaux and Maelstrom's Edge are probably great games, I'm just not interested in them.
Racerguy180 wrote: GW made 17 lieutenants cuz they're lazy. coulda just made 2-3 and given them options included in the kit. but they'd rather "make" you buy (X) different kits.
I wouldn't say GW is lazy. Misapplying their energies and over focusing on Marines, sure, but not lazy. Making 17 kits instead of one is the opposite of lazy.
Considering that they are most likely using the same 3D sculpt again and again(my guess is Zbrush) and just changing pose and some insignia I wouldn't say that this is a lot of work. It's actually a low hanging fruit that provides them with an easy sale with collector's and promotion for various venues. This is quite literally the easiest thing they could do compared to making an actual new sculpt.
Perhaps the biggest shame here is that they could very well have the same approach in Astra Militarum and Aeldari as there is a lot of armor overlap. However, they might not have committed to such a project yet(or have and are keeping tight lips) so we are left with minimal releases in those factions. The Incubi and Howling Banshees release does give me hope though.
This is also why we could get some promotional sisters figurines as they just had to take an existing sister model and repose and rekit it along with small tweaks. The thing is we are living in the wonderful age of digital sculpting and it can speed up a whole lot as well as provide easy modifications to existing units.
Jidmah wrote: The app and many apple products are a bad example, because you can objectively judge those. For software (and hardware) you can put the requirements against the features it a has, and when it doesn't fulfill you requirements, it's a bad piece of software/hardware.
I disagree, you can very much evaluate the features that a box-set has.
How poseable are the models? How many models do you get? Etc.
You can also compare how much similar products are to GW's pricing. And GW's costs look ridiculous here. Even really nice game systems like Weird War Two type stuff are selling resin kits at similar or lower prices than GW, when you know their volume of sales is going to be *significantly* lower.
For the game and the models, that is much more difficult. Essentially the only metrics are "do you like the models?" and "is the game fun", both of which are highly subjective.
IMO this is a question of whether or not a person will buy the object, not if it is a fair price.
I don't want to sound like it's a crime for companies to sell for stuff for what people buy, that's how the market works.
As consumers how job is to decide what a fair price is and don't pay over that.
If 40k sales started dying and competitor game systems with cheaper kits started rising in popularity, I think we'd see GW's first ever price reduction.
I didn't want to trigger an arguement, just wanted to point out that different kits made with different technology, with different mold tooling, and likely different wages aren't really 1:1 comparable for cost.
But for the company they are. GW ain't an eastern european charity organisation. If they set up a rule that box of this type of units are suppose to cost not less, then the prices are going to be what ever they are. And one kit could be plastic dire avangers and the other kit could be ancient resin models, yet somehow both end up costing the same.
I don't know what I am doing wrong here. Do people think that I like the fact that GW generates or seems to generate their prices the way they do? Because I do not. I just don't understand why people think that GW with the way the company prices stuff, would go on and decide that something that costs them the same to make (probably more, they re use a lot of assets making marines and primaris) as a box of marines, but will bring in less money, but will take up the same shelf space should cost less. Aside of course to make the players that want to buy the box happy.
I already gave the example of the elite box and the necron warrior box. In polish currancy the boxs cost practicaly the same. But one has just the warriors and the scarabs, while the other has a character and the whole marine part of the box.
[quote=kirotheavenger 794465 11002794 a9a9e796c545e52c80603929805ba2ed.jpgI disagree, you can very much evaluate the features that a box-set has.
How poseable are the models? How many models do you get? Etc.
Those are taste and quantity, not quality. Both are subjective. The app can be objectively measured and be considered bad, because it fails hard at functionality and usability, irrespective of personal taste.
You can also compare how much similar products are to GW's pricing.
Actually you can't. Only GW sells citadel miniatures and if you like how primaris lieutenant #18 looks, you either pay for it, or you don't.
IMO this is a question of whether or not a person will buy the object, not if it is a fair price.
That the same thing. People tend to not buy things when they thing the price isn't fair.
If 40k sales started dying and competitor game systems with cheaper kits started rising in popularity, I think we'd see GW's first ever price reduction.
If 40k sales started dying and competitor game systems with cheaper kits started rising in popularity, I think we'd see GW's first ever price reduction.
Sure, but I doubt that I will live to see that.
Me neither, GW has a very loyal fan base and a self-reinforcing majority that's growing.
Let's not pretend a box of Space Marines is absolutely incomparable to a box of German Panzer Mechs or whatever.
Just like you can compare Apple's phones to Samsung or Nokia to compare similarities so can you with 40k.
You can believe that someone is charging you far more than the object is worth, whilst still paying for it.
Like scalpers buying up PlayStation 5s and selling that at 2x retail price.
If 40k sales started dying and competitor game systems with cheaper kits started rising in popularity, I think we'd see GW's first ever price reduction.
Sure, but I doubt that I will live to see that.
I think eventually the reality of 3d printing will start to rear its head. Currently the flimsiest of flimsy DMCA claims is the only thing holding independent 3d designers back from being able to just completely replicate GW's designs.
I honestly thought it was absolutely impossible that what I'd be able to print using a 200$ machine would be comparable to GW's minis, but...I was just wrong. The only thing that gates it is the quality of the sculpt, and you can find plenty of stuff that is basically indistinguishable from a kitbash type conversion.
And if someone is sculpting the thing from scratch, using the model as a reference but not doing any kind of physical scans or copying, and then they're giving that model away for free, how the hell can you conceivably challenge that? All they've got going for them currently is the fact that 3d model sharing platform X doesn't want to go to court with Games Workshop over it, so they just dutifully take down anything GW DMCA's no matter how spurious the claim is.
Compared to GW's pricing, my printer setup "paid for itself" with the FIRST HALF LITER of resin I put through it. and that stuff costs 30$. For 30$ I can make "hundreds of dollars of miniatures" going by GW MSRP.
This business strategy of just putting on your horse blinders, cranking up the prices and trying to milk the whales more and more and more is just old GW with a fresh coat of paint.
GW kinda needs to do the later to recoup their investment from the second production facility.
I do agree though, when the first mass produced easy to use 3d printers get around to be done that can also produce decent quantities at once we will see gw under pressure.
It's not just about games, but about miniatures (and paint, and books, and materials). There's a ton of people out there buying the miniatures to paint with the game being an afterthought at the most, and completely irrelevant most of the time. They're successful because the GW Hobby manages to cover so many different hobbies (fluff, role-playing, wargaming, painting, modelling, collecting, etc). 3D printers only cover a small segment of that Hobby, and while I love my printed miniatures I pretty much always think of how much better they would be in GW-quality styrene plastic.
Not Online!!! wrote: GW kinda needs to do the later to recoup their investment from the second production facility.
I do agree though, when the first mass produced easy to use 3d printers get around to be done that can also produce decent quantities at once we will see gw under pressure.
3d printers are already at that point honestly. Forgeworld already uses printers to make its masters and i've seen some crazy clean results come from relatively cheap resin printers (200-300$-ish). As soon as i move out of my small apartment, i'm getting one and its goodbye GW from then on.
The only reason its not as popular is that most people still think filament printers are the only kind (or don't even know 3d printing exists) and that people think theyre complicated to use.
I fully expect that by 2025 GW is gonna make some sort of move against 3d printing, no idea what it would be but theyll do something.
kirotheavenger wrote: Let's not pretend a box of Space Marines is absolutely incomparable to a box of German Panzer Mechs or whatever.
If you want intercessors to play 40k with, you are not going to buy German Panzer Mechs. It's as simple as that.
95% of the time I see people buying third party models, it's not because they are cheaper, but because they like the sculpts better.
The other 5% are mek guns or other insanely expensive models. So clearly there is a point where even GW models are too expensive to buy. And that's why I don't own any citadel mek guns
Just like you can compare Apple's phones to Samsung or Nokia to compare similarities so can you with 40k.
Apples to oranges. A phone has clear functional requirements in regards to size, speed, memory, battery lifetime, camera and what apps and interfaces are available.
I use an iPhone for work. I would never use a Samsung or Nokia because they don't fulfill certain functional requirements I require for my job.
I use a Nokia as a private phone, and I would never use and iPhone because it doesn't fulfill my personal requirements. I don't use a Samsung because the Nokia is objectively the superior choice for my requirements.
Models are just a matter of taste. Either you like a model, or you don't. You don't compare model benchmarks or features across multiple companies to see what the optimal choice for your daemon prince is.
You can believe that someone is charging you far more than the object is worth, whilst still paying for it.
Like scalpers buying up PlayStation 5s and selling that at 2x retail price.
I believe the proper proverb is "more money than sense". If someone is paying 2x retail price he clearly believed having the PS5 now rather than later is worth that much.
"Worth" isn't just raw material + labor + production costs. It's what people are willing to pay for something - which might be far above production costs for some things like 40k, apple products or scalped PS5s.
Not Online!!! wrote: GW kinda needs to do the later to recoup their investment from the second production facility.
I do agree though, when the first mass produced easy to use 3d printers get around to be done that can also produce decent quantities at once we will see gw under pressure.
3d printers are already at that point honestly. Forgeworld already uses printers to make its masters and i've seen some crazy clean results come from relatively cheap resin printers (200-300$-ish). As soon as i move out of my small apartment, i'm getting one and its goodbye GW from then on.
The only reason its not as popular is that most people still think filament printers are the only kind (or don't even know 3d printing exists) and that people think theyre complicated to use.
I fully expect that by 2025 GW is gonna make some sort of move against 3d printing, no idea what it would be but theyll do something.
Yeah. I 1000% admit to being wrong on that - my only experience with resin printing was like 2012-ish when I was in the middle of college, and I thought the results I had been able to achieve with that was because it was like a 4000$+ machine and the prices were crazy for the print material (like 5x what they are right now for the fancy low-odor resin I use)
There's a learning curve to using it, but its nowhere NEAR the learning curve for, for example, painting your figures...I went from knowing nothing to getting basically perfect prints every time in a month.
One of our new players wanted to start DKOK and, after looking at the prices, decided to get three resin printers instead. If you exclude the warlord titan he has printed at 150% size, he is at 7k points of imperial guard now.
Granted, WW1 soldiers with gasmask aren't exactly hard to find sculpts for, when we tried to find a nurgle chaos lord to print, finding something that matches GW aestetics was much harder.
It's also worth noting than many of the better templates already cost money today, and depending on what kind of printer you have you also need to invest manual work (and clean your printer of failed experiments) before you print any given template for the first time.
So printing isn't as cheap as it seems.at first glance - essentially it's a separate hobby on its own.
Racerguy180 wrote: GW made 17 lieutenants cuz they're lazy. coulda just made 2-3 and given them options included in the kit. but they'd rather "make" you buy (X) different kits.
I wouldn't say GW is lazy. Misapplying their energies and over focusing on Marines, sure, but not lazy. Making 17 kits instead of one is the opposite of lazy.
Considering that they are most likely using the same 3D sculpt again and again(my guess is Zbrush) and just changing pose and some insignia I wouldn't say that this is a lot of work. It's actually a low hanging fruit that provides them with an easy sale with collector's and promotion for various venues. This is quite literally the easiest thing they could do compared to making an actual new sculpt.
While GW has shown they maintain a library of elements to speed sculpting over a range, they've also added new elements to each Lt. I feel like the community likes to go out of its way to claim "laziness" on something that still took time to design, test print, get approved, design the sprue, make the mold, paint, make packaging for and sell. Even if it was "lazy" it still required hours upon hours of work to sell a model people might buy one of.
Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if we learned all those Lts where done at the same time but they're trickling them out over time instead.
This isn't a defense of GW making more Marine releases than has been reasonable, just a disagreement on someone's work being called "lazy" just because it isn't what the community wanted. I honestly like those models. I didn't want them, but I think the sculpts for the Lts have been solid examples of a wide variety of junior officers you can pick one out of fit nearly any chapter.
Honestly though I hope people spent a lot of time this year sculpting other things because damn do I want some large non-Marine army releases to bring Xenos more up to date with modern model tech.
I dont think 3d printing is the main challenge to GWs dominant position. Their mainstream design direction, lack of proper game design and unreasonable pricing model will push away enthusiasts and leave the market wide open to another wargame product with more heart and a more fair buisness model. Some other company will make compelling and affordable plastic miniatures with an actuall fun game attached to it and then GW will have dug their own grave too deep to compete. That's my theory at least.
I didn't want to trigger an arguement, just wanted to point out that different kits made with different technology, with different mold tooling, and likely different wages aren't really 1:1 comparable for cost.
But for the company they are. GW ain't an eastern european charity organisation. If they set up a rule that box of this type of units are suppose to cost not less, then the prices are going to be what ever they are. And one kit could be plastic dire avangers and the other kit could be ancient resin models, yet somehow both end up costing the same.
I don't know what I am doing wrong here. Do people think that I like the fact that GW generates or seems to generate their prices the way they do? Because I do not. I just don't understand why people think that GW with the way the company prices stuff, would go on and decide that something that costs them the same to make (probably more, they re use a lot of assets making marines and primaris) as a box of marines, but will bring in less money, but will take up the same shelf space should cost less. Aside of course to make the players that want to buy the box happy.
I already gave the example of the elite box and the necron warrior box. In polish currancy the boxs cost practicaly the same. But one has just the warriors and the scarabs, while the other has a character and the whole marine part of the box.
Karol, as someone who has at least a small knowledge on how pricing works, the time the product was made matters a lot for it's cost.
For any company making goods like GW there is a lot that gets factored into the price: wages for all the work done to make the product is factored in (from sculpting to painting to designing the packaging to the instructions to the printing of packaging and even the process of packaging), as is the cost of the mold and materials, the depreciation on the tooling and injection equipment that must be paid off, facilities costs, as well as shipping, storage and once they have that sum they divide it by a target sales number and then add a profit margin on top (which may be different based on product). Once that target number is hit that product becomes pure profit, but that number of products sold is likely in the hundreds of thousands at the least.
So yeah, there is a big difference between a kit sculpted in GS in three ups before GW upgraded their casting equipment and one made today. Wages are higher. The equipment is more expensive. The number of kits they expect to sell is higher, and generally everything is more expensive than it was 15+ years ago driving costs up. GW pays it's employees well, but that's because every hour they work is accounted for in the products we buy.
We can argue if they're unfairly cranking up the profit margin on the kits, but I'm willing to wager that one new kits that number isn't as high as we think it is.
Gitdakka wrote: I dont think 3d printing is the main challenge to GWs dominant position. Their mainstream design direction, lack of proper game design and unreasonable pricing model will push away enthusiasts and leave the market wide open to another wargame product with more heart and a more fair buisness model. Some other company will make compelling and affordable plastic miniatures with an actuall fun game attached to it and then GW will have dug their own grave too deep to compete. That's my theory at least.
Eventually giants fall.
That sums up what people have said for best part of 2 decades. I remember when Mantic launched and Ronnie was going to save the day by being freed from the shackles of GW and it would be amazing because the armies would be so cheap in comparison, but you weren't forced to use their minis. They've not toppled GW yet, or even got near.
kirotheavenger wrote: Let's not pretend a box of Space Marines is absolutely incomparable to a box of German Panzer Mechs or whatever.
...
Just like you can compare Apple's phones to Samsung or Nokia to compare similarities so can you with 40k.
Apples to oranges. A phone has clear functional requirements in regards to size, speed, memory, battery lifetime, camera and what apps and interfaces are available.
I think you've missed the point. You can absolutely compare kits like that - number of models, quality of sculpts, number of options, etc.
Personal taste is different. I can believe that a pink phone is the same value as a black one even if I personally prefer the black.
GW is, objectively, ripping us off. They're putting out kits costing far more than they need to to turn a profit.
The fact that you still think it's worth paying for (and in some cases I do too) doesn't change that.
Perhaps we just have different definitions of a "fair price" and that's causing the confusion.
As for 3d printing - imoGW already has pretty strong controls in place to mitigate that. Firstly events and in-store gaming requiring 100% GW product massively curtails the appeal of 3rd party pieces for a lot of people. Plus, zealously pursuing their copyright ensures a lot of people are unwilling to stray too close. Copyright is a strange area of law, especially for the layperson, where due to the expense of hashing it out in court it matters less what's actually legal and more what people move to enforce.
Perhaps GW won't reach diamond corporation levels of summoning value from nothing for their miniatures, but I believe they'll still do well even after 3d printers gain more and more traction.
As for 3d printing - imoGW already has pretty strong controls in place to mitigate that. Firstly events and in-store gaming requiring 100% GW product massively curtails the appeal of 3rd party pieces for a lot of people. Plus, zealously pursuing their copyright ensures a lot of people are unwilling to stray too close. Copyright is a strange area of law, especially for the layperson, where due to the expense of hashing it out in court it matters less what's actually legal and more what people move to enforce.
Perhaps GW won't reach diamond corporation levels of summoning value from nothing for their miniatures, but I believe they'll still do well even after 3d printers gain more and more traction.
don't most people play in their garage or non-GW stores?
And copyright doesnt change the fact that you can find 3d models for basically anything in 40k right now. Once something is on the internet,you can't really make it dissapear.
kirotheavenger wrote: GW is, objectively, ripping us off. They're putting out kits costing far more than they need to to turn a profit.
I don't think that's objective at all. I feel like people just see the price tag and assume that's all profit, but that's not really how it works. Like I outlined to Karol, a lot of stuff goes into the cost of a product that drives up the cost of the product, even if the materials used to make the product are cheap.
kirotheavenger wrote: GW is, objectively, ripping us off. They're putting out kits costing far more than they need to to turn a profit.
I don't think that's objective at all. I feel like people just see the price tag and assume that's all profit, but that's not really how it works. Like I outlined to Karol, a lot of stuff goes into the cost of a product that drives up the cost of the product, even if the materials used to make the product are cheap.
to me its not even about the profit margins, its purely about a quantity/quality point of view. Banshees and Incubi are the biggest offender lately and i can't help but compare them to intercessors and find that they come short on every aspect.
kirotheavenger wrote: GW is, objectively, ripping us off. They're putting out kits costing far more than they need to to turn a profit.
I don't think that's objective at all. I feel like people just see the price tag and assume that's all profit, but that's not really how it works. Like I outlined to Karol, a lot of stuff goes into the cost of a product that drives up the cost of the product, even if the materials used to make the product are cheap.
to me its not even about the profit margins, its purely about a quantity/quality point of view. Banshees and Incubi are the biggest offender lately and i can't help but compare them to intercessors and find that they come short on every aspect.
I don't disagree the kits are underwhelming with the lack of extra options when compared to other kits released in the last couple years, I'm just saying that the cost of the kit is likely a lot less unfair than people think it is, but that doesn't mean we can't argue about value since that isn't related to cost. And when it comes to value, they come up short.
kirotheavenger wrote: GW is, objectively, ripping us off. They're putting out kits costing far more than they need to to turn a profit.
I don't think that's objective at all. I feel like people just see the price tag and assume that's all profit, but that's not really how it works. Like I outlined to Karol, a lot of stuff goes into the cost of a product that drives up the cost of the product, even if the materials used to make the product are cheap.
I would agree, except...
GW is far from the only company in the miniatures business. Other companies are putting out similar products at far cheaper, despite also expecting fewer sales from their playerbase.
GW could match those prices and turn an even greater product per item (since larger volume of sales means setup costs et all are less significant). Instead they charge 2-4x as much for a similar product, and often set their rules up to force sales more than other games.
kirotheavenger wrote: GW is, objectively, ripping us off. They're putting out kits costing far more than they need to to turn a profit.
I don't think that's objective at all. I feel like people just see the price tag and assume that's all profit, but that's not really how it works. Like I outlined to Karol, a lot of stuff goes into the cost of a product that drives up the cost of the product, even if the materials used to make the product are cheap.
I would agree, except...
GW is far from the only company in the miniatures business. Other companies are putting out similar products at far cheaper, despite also expecting fewer sales from their playerbase.
GW could match those prices and turn an even greater product per item (since larger volume of sales means setup costs et all are less significant). Instead they charge 2-4x as much for a similar product, and often set their rules up to force sales more than other games.
Are you trying to say GW is too expensive because smaller companies who have spent less on the same mold tech GW has (often making metal or resin casts instead which are FAR cheaper) don't charge as much? That's not a fair comparison at all. And I'm not even dipping into the number of employees in those companies versus GW.
Jidmah wrote: One of our new players wanted to start DKOK and, after looking at the prices, decided to get three resin printers instead. If you exclude the warlord titan he has printed at 150% size, he is at 7k points of imperial guard now.
Granted, WW1 soldiers with gasmask aren't exactly hard to find sculpts for, when we tried to find a nurgle chaos lord to print, finding something that matches GW aestetics was much harder.
It's also worth noting than many of the better templates already cost money today, and depending on what kind of printer you have you also need to invest manual work (and clean your printer of failed experiments) before you print any given template for the first time.
So printing isn't as cheap as it seems.at first glance - essentially it's a separate hobby on its own.
It takes me vastly less time to remove and clean a model out of my printer than it takes for me to even begin to clip a unit off of a GW sprue. the total active time it takes me to prepare a model for printing (adding supports manually, because I am picky) and remove it and clean it and set it up in the curing station *might* be equivalent to the time it takes me to clip and assemble a GW model, but I dunno.
The fact that the cheapest GW models cost 5$ per normal-sized model and every model I 3d print is just about 50c makes that a fairly compelling proposition to me.
I haven't had a failed experiment to clean up since the first two weeks I owned the thing. Once you get the settings right and figure out how to put the supports in properly, it basically never messes up. It's a skill you learn, and a way faster skill than ruining a model by painting it poorly.
Jidmah wrote: One of our new players wanted to start DKOK and, after looking at the prices, decided to get three resin printers instead. If you exclude the warlord titan he has printed at 150% size, he is at 7k points of imperial guard now.
Granted, WW1 soldiers with gasmask aren't exactly hard to find sculpts for, when we tried to find a nurgle chaos lord to print, finding something that matches GW aestetics was much harder.
It's also worth noting than many of the better templates already cost money today, and depending on what kind of printer you have you also need to invest manual work (and clean your printer of failed experiments) before you print any given template for the first time.
So printing isn't as cheap as it seems.at first glance - essentially it's a separate hobby on its own.
It takes me vastly less time to remove and clean a model out of my printer than it takes for me to even begin to clip a unit off of a GW sprue. the total active time it takes me to prepare a model for printing (adding supports manually, because I am picky) and remove it and clean it and set it up in the curing station *might* be equivalent to the time it takes me to clip and assemble a GW model, but I dunno.
The fact that the cheapest GW models cost 5$ per normal-sized model and every model I 3d print is just about 50c makes that a fairly compelling proposition to me.
I haven't had a failed experiment to clean up since the first two weeks I owned the thing. Once you get the settings right and figure out how to put the supports in properly, it basically never messes up. It's a skill you learn, and a way faster skill than ruining a model by painting it poorly.
How long does it take to print a dude, or rather, how long to print 10 and prep for painting? You've also got your electric bill on top which seems daft but will add to costs.
I don't have the cash to lay out on a printer myself, never mind all the extra stuff that goes on top for the curing station. If I did I don't have a convenient place to put it. If I did my other half would no doubt whinge it was on all the time and making noise etc.
There's still a strong place for just going in and buying something off a company.
Bosskelot wrote: Whenever this discussion comes up I always have to laugh because of the Marine players agreeing with the central issue people raise, while still saying that they're buying all the new releases anyway.
Well, why shouldn't they? It's not their fault they get given new stuff.
I noticed we had a random metric of marines getting 80% of the releases earlier on here as well which is incredibly incorrect in terms of models, it's easily ess than 50% of 40k releases off top of my head?
Well what did SM's get this and last edition? The entirety of the Primaris range of models, that by itself is dozens of new units. Just searching "primaris" on GW's page brings up 55 results, some aren't new units and some are combinations but you are likely talking about 40+ brand new models.
What have Xenos as an entire monolithic entity got in that same time frame? Orkz and Necrons got new releases...who else? honest question because I am drawing a complete blank and feel rather silly for it but regardless, I think its fair to say Space Marines are receiving more than their fair share of support.
Well aside from space marines there was an ork release, stealer cults, ad mech, necrons, entire sisters range, custodes, new knights and chaos knights, 2 waves of daemons, chaos space marine wave and the full death guard faction.
Oh I forgot the eldar and dark eldar units, ill lump them grudgingly into an aeldari release.
I asked about Xenos And i mentioned Orkz/crons, so GSC got new models (a faction really) and that is it, everything else you mentioned is Imperial or Chaos.
This kind of goes hand in hand with an earlier comment. Basically SM's are the heroes, all other imperials are supporting characters, Chaos and Demons are hte bad guys and Xenos are NPCs. Don't get me wrong its not even close to a perfect analogy but its rather amusing and it does follow the macro trends within 40k.
Bosskelot wrote: Whenever this discussion comes up I always have to laugh because of the Marine players agreeing with the central issue people raise, while still saying that they're buying all the new releases anyway.
Well, why shouldn't they? It's not their fault they get given new stuff.
I noticed we had a random metric of marines getting 80% of the releases earlier on here as well which is incredibly incorrect in terms of models, it's easily ess than 50% of 40k releases off top of my head?
Well what did SM's get this and last edition? The entirety of the Primaris range of models, that by itself is dozens of new units. Just searching "primaris" on GW's page brings up 55 results, some aren't new units and some are combinations but you are likely talking about 40+ brand new models.
What have Xenos as an entire monolithic entity got in that same time frame? Orkz and Necrons got new releases...who else? honest question because I am drawing a complete blank and feel rather silly for it but regardless, I think its fair to say Space Marines are receiving more than their fair share of support.
Well aside from space marines there was an ork release, stealer cults, ad mech, necrons, entire sisters range, custodes, new knights and chaos knights, 2 waves of daemons, chaos space marine wave and the full death guard faction.
Oh I forgot the eldar and dark eldar units, ill lump them grudgingly into an aeldari release.
I asked about Xenos And i mentioned Orkz/crons, so GSC got new models (a faction really) and that is it, everything else you mentioned is Imperial or Chaos.
This kind of goes hand in hand with an earlier comment. Basically SM's are the heroes, all other imperials are supporting characters, Chaos and Demons are hte bad guys and Xenos are NPCs. Don't get me wrong its not even close to a perfect analogy but its rather amusing and it does follow the macro trends within 40k.
Meh, the chaos revamps were and still are much needed compared to some xenos even. Eldar are winning that crown easily, nids I'm a little conflicted on because they have old models but I'm not sure £32.50 for 10 gaunts is attractive for anyone.
Meh, the chaos revamps were and still are much needed compared to some xenos even. Eldar are winning that crown easily, nids I'm a little conflicted on because they have old models but I'm not sure £32.50 for 10 gaunts is attractive for anyone.
There are a number of Chaos/Eldar/Ork revamps that are much needed...compared to say....making the 207th new Primaris LT model, this one with a neat hand pointing to the horizon while holding a sword.
And that is honestly the problem. The old expression which rings true is "perception is reality". And since we have factions without a meaningful update in sometimes a decade while SM's receive a new model literally more than once a month, the perception is that GW doesn't care about these other factions and would rather just bloat the market with more and more primaris.
Speaking personally, I've been playing 40k since 3rd edition, but I haven't actually bought a single model since 8th started, not bought anything at all from Games Workshop since then either. My main factions being Necrons, Imperial Guard and Eldar. The new Necron release seemed interesting, but a lot of the units are redundant copies of other units already in the book (see Doomstalker to Doomsday Ark, Ophydian Destroyers to Wraiths etc). But, more importantly, they failed to fix the once issue I had with getting invested again: the rules. Since Necrons never got a Psychic Awakening, they were kinda already on catch-up, and the new rules were very bland, uninspiring or just straight up bad (see Reanimation or the Cryptek Arcana). As for Imperial Guard, they've had very little releases, and I already have a very sizable force already, so I have no reason to ever purchase anything new for them. I imagine I don't even need to comment on Eldar. In reality, I haven't really played, built or painted any models in nearly 18 months since the Marines 2.0 Codex dropped, and feel I'm just falling out of the hobby at this point.
Jidmah wrote: One of our new players wanted to start DKOK and, after looking at the prices, decided to get three resin printers instead. If you exclude the warlord titan he has printed at 150% size, he is at 7k points of imperial guard now.
Granted, WW1 soldiers with gasmask aren't exactly hard to find sculpts for, when we tried to find a nurgle chaos lord to print, finding something that matches GW aestetics was much harder.
It's also worth noting than many of the better templates already cost money today, and depending on what kind of printer you have you also need to invest manual work (and clean your printer of failed experiments) before you print any given template for the first time.
So printing isn't as cheap as it seems.at first glance - essentially it's a separate hobby on its own.
It takes me vastly less time to remove and clean a model out of my printer than it takes for me to even begin to clip a unit off of a GW sprue. the total active time it takes me to prepare a model for printing (adding supports manually, because I am picky) and remove it and clean it and set it up in the curing station *might* be equivalent to the time it takes me to clip and assemble a GW model, but I dunno.
The fact that the cheapest GW models cost 5$ per normal-sized model and every model I 3d print is just about 50c makes that a fairly compelling proposition to me.
I haven't had a failed experiment to clean up since the first two weeks I owned the thing. Once you get the settings right and figure out how to put the supports in properly, it basically never messes up. It's a skill you learn, and a way faster skill than ruining a model by painting it poorly.
How long does it take to print a dude, or rather, how long to print 10 and prep for painting? You've also got your electric bill on top which seems daft but will add to costs.
I don't have the cash to lay out on a printer myself, never mind all the extra stuff that goes on top for the curing station. If I did I don't have a convenient place to put it. If I did my other half would no doubt whinge it was on all the time and making noise etc.
There's still a strong place for just going in and buying something off a company.
It takes the same time to print any given height off the build plate - so printing one guy or printing 6 (usually what I end up doing for normal-sized, fully assembled figs is 6 at a time) it's the same.
Usually it takes between 5 and 10 hours, depending on height. I've got a big winged dnd creature on there currently that took 11 hours, that's I think my current record. And yeah, I understand there's machine upkeep periodically, there's added electrical costs for having the thing running, and there's obviously the time and effort you need to put in to get decent files, but it'd need to be a HELL of a lot to come anywhere close to not being monetarily worthwhile compared to buying from GW at MSRP. Take for example my biggest project so far, an Adeptus Titanicus Warlord Titan with all but one of its weapon options (which i can't find, and doesn't seem particularly good so I don't care.) It cost about 12 bucks of resin to make over 5 print runs. To get everything I got for it from GW and forgeworld would be over TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS.
I'm absolutely no stranger to the value proposition of "time is money" and the whole idea of "you can get things good quality, good price, or easily, and you get to pick two" but at a certain point you have to look at just the sheer bonkers amount of how overpriced things have become, and you have to realize that a model that's the same size as a riptide with a half dozen weapon options just should not add up to the cost of a brand new...I dunno I'm spitballing here let's say a brand new 3d printer, to give a random example of what you could get for two hundred bucks.
Certain kits? Yeah, absolutely. Not really worth the time and effort and money for me to spend 2 print runs making up I dunno a wave serpent, or a Rhino for my thousand sons, or some terrain for 40k. and I suspect there'll be plenty of models I just love the aesthetics of and can't find an alternative that's nearly as good.
Not Online!!! wrote: Then again GW also managed to resell marine players their own army again with primaris.
Oh no, how terrible. What an Eeevil dastardly plan! GW has made more models I like.... Lucky them/me as I wasn't likely going to be building/expanding any more loyalist Marine forces.
And it's not really selling me my same army again as each of my Marine forces are built & play differently.
RT/2e - I built SW. Mostly shooty, some melee (mostly from characters), all drop pod based/or DS able.
3e - I built DA. Mechanized 3rd Co., almost entirely shooty. No Death/Raven Wing present.
4e - I built the UltraMarine 9th Co. (shop project). 100% shooty.
5e - I built Doom Eagles - a fully jump pack melee assault squad focused force. Plays alot like a BA assault force - just sans BA rules....
Along the way over the years? I've also built the following as stuff has accrued in the collection;
*1st Co. - All termies, a few Land Raiders. Never really set out to build it, but as I got & kept things from Ebay lots.... Eventually I had enough.
* March of the Dreadnoughts! - Inspired by a bit of lore in a long ago WD about a group of Dreads holding the field. I like the box Dreads, they've always been on of my favorite models. And then FW got into the dread business. Even better, 8th let me actually field my dreads as a force.
*Mentor Legion - This is the catchall force for random Marine things I like that don't fit into my vision of one of my other Marine forces. Lots of one off units & some conversions. Something doesn't fit elsewhere for some reason? Then it gets painted up in the Green & White....
Now there's enough Primaris models that I like the look of I can form them into their own distinct force. Or maybe I'll just stick to 1 unit of each that I like & add them to my Mentors. Undecided as of yet.
Conveniently the Indom box contained many of the Primaris units I liked the look of. That + the Necron 1/2 = easy sale.
A lot of the recent Imperium focus is a matter of the Primaris revamp which is a direct reaction to the success of Stormcast. My hope is we'll see Chaos get a similar focus that we've seen in Sigmar with each of the 4 chaos gods built into its own line.
Xenos are tough. I think GW were really hoping to consolidate Eldar into something more manageable to revamp but it didn't really come together. We've seen a LOT of experimentation in Sigmar that I think will shape the Eldar... eventually. They probably need it the most. Ork's are a close second but seem to be getting a slow feed of new releases. I imagine GW is trying to decide a decent way to handle a new Boyz kit.
And to circle back on Imperial oversaturation, I think there's just a need for consolidation. Pulling most of the chapters into the main book is a big help and I'd not be sad to see the same done with a few of the other factions to get down to 4-6 real factions to focus on.
Gitdakka wrote: I dont think 3d printing is the main challenge to GWs dominant position. Their mainstream design direction, lack of proper game design and unreasonable pricing model will push away enthusiasts and leave the market wide open to another wargame product with more heart and a more fair buisness model. Some other company will make compelling and affordable plastic miniatures with an actuall fun game attached to it and then GW will have dug their own grave too deep to compete. That's my theory at least.
Eventually giants fall.
There's plenty of great games out there with strong, well-written rulesets and good, decently priced miniatures already. Quality of their games (or rather, lack thereof) is absolutely not why GW is the market leader. Even at their worst, GW was still pulling in a profit in the millions. The problem is that the expansion of those games is usually dependent on GW making series' of mistakes which alienate a decent enough portion of the fanbase, but even then, those customers into other games are limited, because almost all of them will run back to GW with open arms as soon as the next 'BESTIST EDITION EVER' is announced and they see their mates all playing it.
LunarSol wrote: A lot of the recent Imperium focus is a matter of the Primaris revamp which is a direct reaction to the success of Stormcast.
I don't think Sigmarines were anywhere near the success GW banked on them being. Sure they're popular, but they hold a similar position to Warriors of Chaos and High Elves did in Fantasy - one of the most popular armies, but not by such a wide margin that they can get away with pumping the majority of models, lore and general focus upon them (even if they're still the poster boys). AoS itself was probably about trying to make lightning strike twice with Ground Marines than anything else and that they've not seen a release in almost three years should tell us they're not akin to Primaris in that they'll make five times the money of literally any other army release. AoS 1.0 was at least as saturated with Sigmarine focus as 8th/9th have been with Marines, but they actively slammed the breaks on that leading up to 2.0 - which overall was probably healthier for the game itself, but I imagine GW would be much happier being able to funnel the majority of their design/production focus into one faction like with 40k. Compare that to 40k, where the Marine saturation has only been getting worse with no signs of letting up beyond what they can introduce as a Villain Of The Week to be thwarted by the Primaris.
Xenos are tough. I think GW were really hoping to consolidate Eldar into something more manageable to revamp but it didn't really come together.
Oh man, if only GW could consolidate Eldar into a single faction for no reason whatsoever. That would totally help them release more Eldar models. Somehow.
Let's just ignore the fact that there are more than twice as many Primaris Lieutenants as there are units in the entire Harlequin codex. I'm sure that has absolutely nothing to do with Eldar of all colours getting somewhere between bugger and all.
ClockworkZion wrote: Stormcast have issues like bad rules that keep them from being quite as nuts with. Which is even sadder since they've seen the most updates in AoS.
Space Marines have been absurdly popular even at their worst. Strong rules definitely help bring the tournament players onto the bandwagon sure, but short of being outright unplayable it doesn't impact on popularity that much. Fyreslayers have been A-tier for most of 2.0, but they're still pretty unpopular outside of tournaments and vice versa for the Kharadrons.
LunarSol wrote: Ork's are a close second but seem to be getting a slow feed of new releases.
Orks aren't even remotely near a close second. In fact, I think only necrons are in less need of updates right now.
Orks really need no more than a revamp of their finecast characters(just like everyone else), tank bustas, kommandoz and a propper kopta. If GW really wanted, they could do that as part of a regular codex release wave.
kirotheavenger wrote: GW is, objectively, ripping us off. They're putting out kits costing far more than they need to to turn a profit.
I don't think that's objective at all. I feel like people just see the price tag and assume that's all profit, but that's not really how it works. Like I outlined to Karol, a lot of stuff goes into the cost of a product that drives up the cost of the product, even if the materials used to make the product are cheap.
GW's been turning literal record profits for the past two years- their financials are public, you can look them up yourself.
Whether that's justifiable by shareholder-driven constant need to expand or saving for a rainy day gets totally into subjective factors, but objectively, GW's costs are demonstrably higher than they need to be to keep the lights on.
kirotheavenger wrote: GW is, objectively, ripping us off. They're putting out kits costing far more than they need to to turn a profit.
I don't think that's objective at all. I feel like people just see the price tag and assume that's all profit, but that's not really how it works. Like I outlined to Karol, a lot of stuff goes into the cost of a product that drives up the cost of the product, even if the materials used to make the product are cheap.
GW's been turning literal record profits for the past two years- their financials are public, you can look them up yourself.
Whether that's justifiable by shareholder-driven constant need to expand or saving for a rainy day gets totally into subjective factors, but objectively, GW's costs are demonstrably higher than they need to be to keep the lights on.
I'm not saying they aren't profitable, but I feel people WAY overblow how much money GW makes on any given sale. The price gap between what they charge independent stockists and customers is likely their gross profit margin, the margin they can shave off since it doesn't need to go to keeping the store's lights on, pay the employees, pay the insurance, ect, but the net profit? Maybe 10% of a kit's price. Probably more likely somewhere between 5-10%. Now older kits, that have basically "paid for themselves" (as in made back all the money spent to make them) are likely 80-90% profit (no 100% because there is always labor), but a lot of those kits date back to 3rd and 4th edition, if not even older.
Considering the volume GW has been dealing in, a volume that they struggle to keep up with even before COVID, it's clear that they make money like every company does: volume.
That said, the online store likely makes them the most money, which in a year where everyone is stuck at home and ordering online, is safe to say has contributed massively this year to their profits.
kirotheavenger wrote: GW is, objectively, ripping us off. They're putting out kits costing far more than they need to to turn a profit.
I don't think that's objective at all. I feel like people just see the price tag and assume that's all profit, but that's not really how it works. Like I outlined to Karol, a lot of stuff goes into the cost of a product that drives up the cost of the product, even if the materials used to make the product are cheap.
GW's been turning literal record profits for the past two years- their financials are public, you can look them up yourself.
Whether that's justifiable by shareholder-driven constant need to expand or saving for a rainy day gets totally into subjective factors, but objectively, GW's costs are demonstrably higher than they need to be to keep the lights on.
I'm not saying they aren't profitable, but I feel people WAY overblow how much money GW makes on any given sale. The price gap between what they charge independent stockists and customers is likely their gross profit margin, the margin they can shave off since it doesn't need to go to keeping the store's lights on, pay the employees, pay the insurance, ect, but the net profit? Maybe 10% of a kit's cost. Considering the volume GW has been dealing in, a volume that they struggle to keep up with even before COVID, it's clear that they make money like every company does: volume.
That said, the online store likely makes them the most money, which in a year where everyone is stuck at home and ordering online, is safe to say has contributed massively this year to their profits.
Im pretty sure people complaining about the price don't care how much of it is profit going to GW
Xenos are tough. I think GW were really hoping to consolidate Eldar into something more manageable to revamp but it didn't really come together.
Oh man, if only GW could consolidate Eldar into a single faction for no reason whatsoever. That would totally help them release more Eldar models. Somehow.
Let's just ignore the fact that there are more than twice as many Primaris Lieutenants as there are units in the entire Harlequin codex. I'm sure that has absolutely nothing to do with Eldar of all colours getting somewhere between bugger and all.
Well this supposedly had something to do with a cancelled 2nd wave of harlequins because they didn't sell well on release. Can't find the original source but there was an AMA with an insider somewhere on here who explained why the range was so small.
Ynnari is very evidently the framework for a range consolidation or possibly a "codex aeldari" with supplements on top. If you were going to relaunch a faction, holding back on their releases makes some sense.
The lack of love for craftworlds and harlies has been shocking so far and now sisters are re-established they need the most TLC.
kirotheavenger wrote: GW is, objectively, ripping us off. They're putting out kits costing far more than they need to to turn a profit.
I don't think that's objective at all. I feel like people just see the price tag and assume that's all profit, but that's not really how it works. Like I outlined to Karol, a lot of stuff goes into the cost of a product that drives up the cost of the product, even if the materials used to make the product are cheap.
GW's been turning literal record profits for the past two years- their financials are public, you can look them up yourself.
Whether that's justifiable by shareholder-driven constant need to expand or saving for a rainy day gets totally into subjective factors, but objectively, GW's costs are demonstrably higher than they need to be to keep the lights on.
I'm not saying they aren't profitable, but I feel people WAY overblow how much money GW makes on any given sale. The price gap between what they charge independent stockists and customers is likely their gross profit margin, the margin they can shave off since it doesn't need to go to keeping the store's lights on, pay the employees, pay the insurance, ect, but the net profit? Maybe 10% of a kit's cost. Considering the volume GW has been dealing in, a volume that they struggle to keep up with even before COVID, it's clear that they make money like every company does: volume.
That said, the online store likely makes them the most money, which in a year where everyone is stuck at home and ordering online, is safe to say has contributed massively this year to their profits.
Im pretty sure people complaining about the price don't care how much of it is profit going to GW
Which is why I tried to point out that a large portion of the price is a need to pay their employees, and for the equipment used to make the models. GW doesn't outsource everything so it means all their stuff is going to cost more. They pay their employees pretty decently and that means they're going to need to charge more for stuff. Sure, GW is still making money hand over fist, but a large portion of that money is going back into the company.
I'm pretty sure Covid will have negatively impacted GW's sales.
People can't play games, so there's little drive to buy more stuff to play with.
I would be very surprised if GW only made 10% profit on a kit, they sell at less than that to retailers, and they'd still want to make a profit even if they're not directly selling it.
kirotheavenger wrote: I'm pretty sure Covid will have negatively impacted GW's sales.
People can't play games, so there's little drive to buy more stuff to play with.
I would be very surprised if GW only made 10% profit on a kit, they sell at less than that to retailers, and they'd still want to make a profit even if they're not directly selling it.
GW runs an online store and saw MASSIVE sales spikes online. A lot of people spent a lot of time basically stuck at home. With all that free time, why not work on that dream army project?
And I was saying that 10% would be included in what they charge the stockist, with the gap between what they charge and the box price being the profit for whatever store it's going into (or in the GW store's cases, how they pay the bills for that store with any left over money then being a profit on top of that). The online store instead pockets most of that money since the digital store front doesn't need to make as much money to pay for it's upkeep.
The Primaris Lt thing is interesting. We see them as unique models because they're sold to us that way, but for the most part they're not in any way. For the most part they're just parts of whatever unit they were bundled with. The latest one is just a Bladeguard Sgt with a NeoVolkite pistol. The originals were Intercessor sculpts. Almost every one of them could have been swapped with a sculpt from the unit, which is likely all they really are.
ClockworkZion wrote: The price gap between what they charge independent stockists and customers is likely their gross profit margin, the margin they can shave off since it doesn't need to go to keeping the store's lights on, pay the employees, pay the insurance, ect, but the net profit? Maybe 10% of a kit's price. Probably more likely somewhere between 5-10%. Now older kits, that have basically "paid for themselves" (as in made back all the money spent to make them) are likely 80-90% profit (no 100% because there is always labor), but a lot of those kits date back to 3rd and 4th edition, if not even older.
The idea of a new kit having a small profit margin and old ones being mostly profit is purely an analytic fiction, though- the organization's ongoing costs are paid by both, and both have the same raw material/labor/transportation costs. I mean, the basic comparison of how much a kit has sold versus how much it cost to make is useful from a business management perspective (what should you make more of), but determining profit margins on a specific kit requires taking amortization schedules into account and it gets complicated. If you amortize the cost of production over ten years of expected sales, your profit margin gets a lot higher than if you need to recoup the up-front design/tooling costs in a year's sales. And that's not even looking at loss leaders or regional pricing.
Which gets back to my point- there's no objective way to determine what a kit 'should' cost, just as there's no objective way to set the price of a single videogame, mp3, or DVD, but we can look to the company's overall financials to get a sense for their economic viability. If a company is making money hand over fist (which GW has been, even before 2020), then they demonstrably have room to reduce prices while still maintaining profitability. Whether they should is another matter.
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ClockworkZion wrote: Sure, GW is still making money hand over fist, but a large portion of that money is going back into the company.
That's why we're talking about profit, not about revenue. Profit is what's left over after all that money is taken into account, and GW's making a lot of it.
According to the 2019-2020 annual report, GW reported a revenue of 269.7 million pounds, and an operating profit of 90 million pounds. There's some complicated stuff involving tax but broadly speaking about three-quarters of their revenue went to operational costs, and the remaining quarter was profit (for expansion, reinvestment, and shareholders).
GW could have cut all revenue sources (prices on models, paints, books, licensing, etc) to 75-80% of current values for the year, and- even if we assume that this would result in no increased volume of sales whatsoever- they'd still break even.
Again, I'm not saying they should. Just that the idea that these are all unknowns, and maybe GW's prices really are the bare minimum they need to stay solvent, is just not true. They're making a ton of money, and 2019-2020 is no exception; they've drawn this sort of profit for some five years running, with revenue roughly doubling over this period. The reports are all public.
I don't think GW's prices are the bare minimum they need to operate, but I do think that prices aren't so far beyond where they should be either. A common thing that comes up is a confusion of value for cost. People say things cost too much because they value them lower then the cost. It doesn't mean value is wrong, it's just that it gets misidentified.
If anything Covid has seen an increase in profits for GW rather than the opposite. The primary market for their games are the middle-class and the middle-class in most western societies has made out brilliantly from the pandemic. They're still working and earning, and spending less money on other things like travel and so have extra disposable income and time with which to invest in their hobbies. Doesn't matter if you can't play any games right now when you're looking to the future or you're just a person that collects and paints.
Da Boss wrote: People get annoyed as they realise the game is designed around Marines as the Protagonist faction, and Marine players are the protagonists in the game.
Other Imperials are like the plucky sidekick character, sometimes a fan favourite but definitely second string.
Chaos are the big baddies, skeletor style that always talk big but get beaten by the protagonist in the end.
And Xenos are basically NPC factions, just there for colour and variety to give the Space Marines something to beat up in the first scene of the story before the True Threat (chaos) arrives.
That is how 40K is designed, but some Xenos players and even Chaos and Imperial players think they are playing a game about different factions that are roughly equal in esteem and narrative importance. When they realise the truth, that they invested hundreds of dollars or euros or even pounds into their army and it is nothing more than an NPC afterthought designed to have the crap beaten into it to allow Marine players to have their power fantasy, they get upset.
Then they have a choice! They can join the Marines, or maybe get a Chaos faction since that gets a fair amount of attention as the True Threat, or leave the game. There is usually a bit of complaining before they make the choice, because of how much time, money and emotional energy they have invested in their second string faction.
That is ultimately what all these threads are about. It would be better if GW would advertise this up front, but they kinda do in how they group stuff on their site if you look.
I wanted to quote this from back on page 3, as this thread has turned into a rant on pricing, production, etc ( as all GW threads are wont to do) and people seem to have missed it.
This is really it in a nutshell. Space Marines are the heroes of the story, and as such people want to be the hero so they choose Space Marines. Ergo, GW makes more Space Marines, and people buy more, and the cycle continues.
I like the other factions. They are what gives 40k its flavor. But they are supporting characters. It sounds harsh, but really this is something the playerbase either needs to accept or if they can't then move on. Nothing is going to change it. And I say this as someone whose favorite faction is Thousand Sons.
Bosskelot wrote: The primary market for their games are the middle-class and the middle-class in most western societies has made out brilliantly from the pandemic.
I mean demonstrably and obviously no, they super havent but go off.
That is true and its something GW should be honest about as well. Just make the game system " Space Marine 40,000 " as of now they kind of run it like other factions matter, when really, as you say, it's space marines and who either help them or try to stop them.
Phobos wrote: ...This is really it in a nutshell. Space Marines are the heroes of the story, and as such people want to be the hero so they choose Space Marines. Ergo, GW makes more Space Marines, and people buy more, and the cycle continues.
I like the other factions. They are what gives 40k its flavor. But they are supporting characters. It sounds harsh, but really this is something the playerbase either needs to accept or if they can't then move on. Nothing is going to change it. And I say this as someone whose favorite faction is Thousand Sons.
There are a lot of miniature wargames in the world. Approximately none of them other than 40k/Sigmar have ever had this problem. GWmakes a lot of other miniatures games that don't have this problem. In the transition from WHFB (which didn't have a protagonist faction to eat a larger percentage of releases) to Sigmar (which does have a protagonist faction that eats a larger percentage of releases) we got to see GW creating the problem for themselves. GW could choose to make fewer Space Marines and support other factions properly and still run a perfectly viable business. They choose not to.
Which leads to some people having an issue. Either they need to just come right out and say the bias, or fix the very obvious bias.
I think fixing it would do wonders to not only let marine players relax every now and then but also let some other players get a long time in the sun free from the monthly primaris LT or next slew of marine model bloat tossed out.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Which leads to some people having an issue. Either they need to just come right out and say the bias, or fix the very obvious bias.
I think fixing it would do wonders to not only let marine players relax every now and then but also let some other players get a long time in the sun free from the monthly primaris LT or next slew of marine model bloat tossed out.
I'm pretty sure the bias has been obvious for ages. I mean Marines got the first plastic kit, and they're literally the sale promo material:
Spoiler:
Let's be honest: it's never not been obvious that Marines are THE poster child.
Phobos wrote: ...This is really it in a nutshell. Space Marines are the heroes of the story, and as such people want to be the hero so they choose Space Marines. Ergo, GW makes more Space Marines, and people buy more, and the cycle continues.
I like the other factions. They are what gives 40k its flavor. But they are supporting characters. It sounds harsh, but really this is something the playerbase either needs to accept or if they can't then move on. Nothing is going to change it. And I say this as someone whose favorite faction is Thousand Sons.
There are a lot of miniature wargames in the world. Approximately none of them other than 40k/Sigmar have ever had this problem. GWmakes a lot of other miniatures games that don't have this problem. In the transition from WHFB (which didn't have a protagonist faction to eat a larger percentage of releases) to Sigmar (which does have a protagonist faction that eats a larger percentage of releases) we got to see GW creating the problem for themselves. GW could choose to make fewer Space Marines and support other factions properly and still run a perfectly viable business. They choose not to.
1at: They have no reason to change what's working for them.
2nd: Marines have been the stars of 40k since RT hit the shelves & this isn't changing any time in your lifetime. So you'd best reconcile yourselves with that fact.
ccs wrote: ...1at: They have no reason to change what's working for them.
2nd: Marines have been the stars of 40k since RT hit the shelves & this isn't changing any time in your lifetime. So you'd best reconcile yourselves with that fact.
Obviously. There's no possible reason that one army shouldn't be vastly over-supported and everyone else should have to wait a decade between releases. It's the best strategy to make any game work and we all need to shut up, stop whining, and get used to it, because there's no way GW ever changes anything in response to consumer complaints, like when they deleted USRs or made vehicles and MCs use the same statlines or got rid of D-weapons or gave everyone the same CP dependent on game size and penalized taking extra detachments or started giving out mono-faction bonuses...
If whining never worked sure, folks would get fed up and stop whining, but with GW whining sometimes works.
Phobos wrote: ...This is really it in a nutshell. Space Marines are the heroes of the story, and as such people want to be the hero so they choose Space Marines. Ergo, GW makes more Space Marines, and people buy more, and the cycle continues.
I like the other factions. They are what gives 40k its flavor. But they are supporting characters. It sounds harsh, but really this is something the playerbase either needs to accept or if they can't then move on. Nothing is going to change it. And I say this as someone whose favorite faction is Thousand Sons.
There are a lot of miniature wargames in the world. Approximately none of them other than 40k/Sigmar have ever had this problem . GWmakes a lot of other miniatures games that don't have this problem. In the transition from WHFB (which didn't have a protagonist faction to eat a larger percentage of releases) to Sigmar (which does have a protagonist faction that eats a larger percentage of releases) we got to see GW creating the problem for themselves. GW could choose to make fewer Space Marines and support other factions properly and still run a perfectly viable business. They choose not to.
I've bolded your mistake.You keep using the word problem. And maybe to you, it is.
But to Games Workshop it most certainly is not a problem. It is working exactly as designed.
Why do you think they flushed 30+ years of history down the drain with the end times and rebooted as Sigmar? It had nothing to do with copyright issues and EVERYTHING to do with brand identity. It was to create the "problem" of a poster faction, because for all it's rich lore and history, that was the one thing that WHFB lacked. When you think of Warhammer 40K, you think space marine. Sigmar and Sigmarines exist so that when you think Age of Sigmar, you think Sigmarine.
Phobos wrote: ...This is really it in a nutshell. Space Marines are the heroes of the story, and as such people want to be the hero so they choose Space Marines. Ergo, GW makes more Space Marines, and people buy more, and the cycle continues.
I like the other factions. They are what gives 40k its flavor. But they are supporting characters. It sounds harsh, but really this is something the playerbase either needs to accept or if they can't then move on. Nothing is going to change it. And I say this as someone whose favorite faction is Thousand Sons.
There are a lot of miniature wargames in the world. Approximately none of them other than 40k/Sigmar have ever had this problem . GWmakes a lot of other miniatures games that don't have this problem. In the transition from WHFB (which didn't have a protagonist faction to eat a larger percentage of releases) to Sigmar (which does have a protagonist faction that eats a larger percentage of releases) we got to see GW creating the problem for themselves. GW could choose to make fewer Space Marines and support other factions properly and still run a perfectly viable business. They choose not to.
I've bolded your mistake.You keep using the word problem. And maybe to you, it is.
But to Games Workshop it most certainly is not a problem. It is working exactly as designed.
Why do you think they flushed 30+ years of history down the drain with the end times and rebooted as Sigmar? It had nothing to do with copyright issues and EVERYTHING to do with brand identity. It was to create the "problem" of a poster faction, because for all it's rich lore and history, that was the one thing that WHFB lacked. When you think of Warhammer 40K, you think space marine. Sigmar and Sigmarines exist so that when you think Age of Sigmar, you think Sigmarine.
You think they axed my precious WHFB just because it had no identifiable main faction? I find that very odd, considering that when I think of AoS I do not immediately think Sigmarites. In my mind AoS has an as varying and non-main faction cast as WHFB did, albeit it with vastly worse fluff and rules. No they axed WHFB because they killed it themselves. From what I heard WHFB sales were tanking, probably related to their own mishandling of the rules and accompanying price increases. People who shelved out 30 euros for 16/20 troops were now expected to pay 20 for 10 while the rules demanded you fielded more of them than ever. For once the GW crowd did the right thing and gave them the finger for that behavior.
Phobos wrote: ...This is really it in a nutshell. Space Marines are the heroes of the story, and as such people want to be the hero so they choose Space Marines. Ergo, GW makes more Space Marines, and people buy more, and the cycle continues.
I like the other factions. They are what gives 40k its flavor. But they are supporting characters. It sounds harsh, but really this is something the playerbase either needs to accept or if they can't then move on. Nothing is going to change it. And I say this as someone whose favorite faction is Thousand Sons.
There are a lot of miniature wargames in the world. Approximately none of them other than 40k/Sigmar have ever had this problem . GWmakes a lot of other miniatures games that don't have this problem. In the transition from WHFB (which didn't have a protagonist faction to eat a larger percentage of releases) to Sigmar (which does have a protagonist faction that eats a larger percentage of releases) we got to see GW creating the problem for themselves. GW could choose to make fewer Space Marines and support other factions properly and still run a perfectly viable business. They choose not to.
I've bolded your mistake.You keep using the word problem. And maybe to you, it is.
But to Games Workshop it most certainly is not a problem. It is working exactly as designed.
Why do you think they flushed 30+ years of history down the drain with the end times and rebooted as Sigmar? It had nothing to do with copyright issues and EVERYTHING to do with brand identity. It was to create the "problem" of a poster faction, because for all it's rich lore and history, that was the one thing that WHFB lacked. When you think of Warhammer 40K, you think space marine. Sigmar and Sigmarines exist so that when you think Age of Sigmar, you think Sigmarine.
You think they axed my precious WHFB just because it had no identifiable main faction? I find that very odd, considering that when I think of AoS I do not immediately think Sigmarites. In my mind AoS has an as varying and non-main faction cast as WHFB did, albeit it with vastly worse fluff and rules. No they axed WHFB because they killed it themselves. From what I heard WHFB sales were tanking, probably related to their own mishandling of the rules and accompanying price increases. People who shelved out 30 euros for 16/20 troops were now expected to pay 20 for 10 while the rules demanded you fielded more of them than ever. For once the GW crowd did the right thing and gave them the finger for that behavior.
100% absolutely. YOU don't think of Sigmarines when you think of AoS, because you already had a relationship with the game in its prior incarnation. So to YOU AoS is Orcs or Undead or whatever you liked. But this isn't about you (or me, or anyone who played before) and what they think. This is about a rebranding, and putting a new face on it with a main protagonist just like 40K and what NEW players are going to think.
Who features prominently on all new Sigmar marketing materials? Look at this box:
That is Crypt Hunters, the single boxed game sold in Barnes and Noble, aimed at getting new gamers into the hobby. Who is on the cover? What does the bottom text say? Who do you think is the protagonist of Age of Sigmar?
It is literally the only explanation that makes ANY sense. If it was about blob units and cost of entry, WHFB as a setting didn't need to go away. Games Workshop needed a clean slate to work from to develop the new story with Sigmarines at the center of it.The fact that WHFB was nearly dead and had poor sales and yadda yadda yadda is likely what convinced them that starting fresh and making it more like 40K with a central faction is the right thing to do.
Phobos wrote: ...This is really it in a nutshell. Space Marines are the heroes of the story, and as such people want to be the hero so they choose Space Marines. Ergo, GW makes more Space Marines, and people buy more, and the cycle continues.
I like the other factions. They are what gives 40k its flavor. But they are supporting characters. It sounds harsh, but really this is something the playerbase either needs to accept or if they can't then move on. Nothing is going to change it. And I say this as someone whose favorite faction is Thousand Sons.
There are a lot of miniature wargames in the world. Approximately none of them other than 40k/Sigmar have ever had this problem . GWmakes a lot of other miniatures games that don't have this problem. In the transition from WHFB (which didn't have a protagonist faction to eat a larger percentage of releases) to Sigmar (which does have a protagonist faction that eats a larger percentage of releases) we got to see GW creating the problem for themselves. GW could choose to make fewer Space Marines and support other factions properly and still run a perfectly viable business. They choose not to.
I've bolded your mistake.You keep using the word problem. And maybe to you, it is.
But to Games Workshop it most certainly is not a problem. It is working exactly as designed.
Why do you think they flushed 30+ years of history down the drain with the end times and rebooted as Sigmar? It had nothing to do with copyright issues and EVERYTHING to do with brand identity. It was to create the "problem" of a poster faction, because for all it's rich lore and history, that was the one thing that WHFB lacked. When you think of Warhammer 40K, you think space marine. Sigmar and Sigmarines exist so that when you think Age of Sigmar, you think Sigmarine.
You think they axed my precious WHFB just because it had no identifiable main faction? I find that very odd, considering that when I think of AoS I do not immediately think Sigmarites. In my mind AoS has an as varying and non-main faction cast as WHFB did, albeit it with vastly worse fluff and rules. No they axed WHFB because they killed it themselves. From what I heard WHFB sales were tanking, probably related to their own mishandling of the rules and accompanying price increases. People who shelved out 30 euros for 16/20 troops were now expected to pay 20 for 10 while the rules demanded you fielded more of them than ever. For once the GW crowd did the right thing and gave them the finger for that behavior.
As much as the community will shift blame the community was to blame too. They created a meta that pushed the game to stay at 2k+ points and had no interest to make the game more accessible to newer players.
There was blame on both sides (8th was peak Kirby's claims of the game being second to the models for example), so let's not pretend GW killed the game alone, the community helped.
Imagine wanting the game/hobby/community to not be better this hard.
Spoiler:
you aren't getting a second interview, no matter how hard you whiteknight here, boys.
This is a thread for talking about fatigue with the direction the hobby has been taking. Not for bashing everyone who doesn't love GW and it's only two important factions oh god I can't actually believe this is a take that people have unironically? For real, trash opinion.
If this were really the case, you just straight up wouldn't be able to play other factions, they'd be AI like the enemies in Blackstone Fortress.
It's so egotistical that you think that all of those other designs, armies, rulesets and players only exist to fluff you. Like, genuinely astonished that this is a position not only being argued, but by more than one maniac fanboy here?
I don't think I've seen a SINGLE SOUL here trying to say Marines aren't the posterboys. This isn't in dispute. The issue stems from how beyond asymmetric the release schedule has gotten, how bloated and mind numbing it feels to know there's another fething bolter profile, while factions like DE have had options stripped out of their codex for years, and yet are somehow being trotted out as a faction that should stop whining because they got a grand total of 2 new kits last edition.
I know this is a bit steep, but for real. If you think that other armies, other players exist just to give marines something to stomp, you should really take a second to stop and think about what you're doing in the community.
ClockWorkZion wrote:As much as the community will shift blame the community was to blame too. They created a meta that pushed the game to stay at 2k+ points and had no interest to make the game more accessible to newer players.
There was blame on both sides (8th was peak Kirby's claims of the game being second to the models for example), so let's not pretend GW killed the game alone, the community helped.
Nonsense. 'The community' isn't a monolithic block that groupthinks and acts the same.
Different people in different areas had different approaches and playstyles. There is no need whatsoever (and no truth whatsoever)to blame 'the community' for cutting out new players and preventing sales.
Warhammer players function in groups of 2 to maybe 20, with some exceptions. All those little groups don't force anything in unison.
ClockWorkZion wrote:As much as the community will shift blame the community was to blame too. They created a meta that pushed the game to stay at 2k+ points and had no interest to make the game more accessible to newer players.
There was blame on both sides (8th was peak Kirby's claims of the game being second to the models for example), so let's not pretend GW killed the game alone, the community helped.
Nonsense. 'The community' isn't a monolithic block that groupthinks and acts the same.
Different people in different areas had different approaches and playstyles. There is no need whatsoever (and no truth whatsoever)to blame 'the community' for cutting out new players and preventing sales.
Warhammer players function in groups of 2 to maybe 20, with some exceptions. All those little groups don't force anything in unison.
And yet there is a meta. Competitive play trickles down directly and indirectly (either people who play competetive, and by building competetive net lists respectively). There was a serious problem in the larger WFB community, even if there were smaller groups who did what they could to bring on new players.
I mean 8th is the edition that sales for all of WFB dropped below the sales of JUST Space Marines. WFB wasn't even a top 10 selling game at the time. The game was hemmoraging old players and failing to bring in new ones.
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posermcbogus wrote: Imagine wanting the game/hobby/community to not be better this hard.
Spoiler:
you aren't getting a second interview, no matter how hard you whiteknight here, boys.
This is a thread for talking about fatigue with the direction the hobby has been taking. Not for bashing everyone who doesn't love GW and it's only two important factions oh god I can't actually believe this is a take that people have unironically? For real, trash opinion.
If this were really the case, you just straight up wouldn't be able to play other factions, they'd be AI like the enemies in Blackstone Fortress.
It's so egotistical that you think that all of those other designs, armies, rulesets and players only exist to fluff you. Like, genuinely astonished that this is a position not only being argued, but by more than one maniac fanboy here?
I don't think I've seen a SINGLE SOUL here trying to say Marines aren't the posterboys. This isn't in dispute. The issue stems from how beyond asymmetric the release schedule has gotten, how bloated and mind numbing it feels to know there's another fething bolter profile, while factions like DE have had options stripped out of their codex for years, and yet are somehow being trotted out as a faction that should stop whining because they got a grand total of 2 new kits last edition.
I know this is a bit steep, but for real. If you think that other armies, other players exist just to give marines something to stomp, you should really take a second to stop and think about what you're doing in the community.
No one is disagreeing that the Marine releases are overblown and got out of control since the Primaris were announced. Even the most die hard Marine players admit it. It was more a point that it's not recent that Marines got the lionshare of the studio's attention and pretending it was a new change was disingenuous.
But go on, pretend you have some moral high ground because people point out you were wrong, and then strawman them all into a position no one is taking.
No one is disagreeing that the Marine releases are overblown and got out of control since the Primaris were announced. Even the most die hard Marine players admit it. It was more a point that it's not recent that Marines got the lionshare of the studio's attention and pretending it was a new change was disingenuous.
But go on, pretend you have some moral high ground because people point out you were wrong, and then strawman them all into a position no one is taking.
So why are you defending the state of things so far? If they - in your words "got out of control" how is this not a "new change"? We all know that it's not a recent thing that marines have dominated the release schedule, but the scale - the number of consecutive months when they've dominated previews, dominated release slots, campaign books, codex updates, box sets in the last few editions, at the pace they've been doing it is clearly alienating players.
Even if we look at the so-called big releases like GSC, Admech, even death guard the totals of kits, the multiples of unit types are dwarfed significantly be the attention that Marines have been getting, and where all of those release slots had an end, with, in most cases, no tangible schedule for future releases that marines get.
I don't recall having this many profiles for bolt weapons in any other edition of the game, nor the acceleration that we keep seeing.
All of this is a real factor in how people, such as myself and OP, are finding ourselves frustrated and burned out at the current state of affairs. A change of pace would absolutely make the game healthier.
Your bleeding heart act that "oh, it really is terrible that marines dominate the 40k output of GW" is pretty unconvincing when you continue to agitate for "no-one disagree with me because GW have been doing this for years, and so it's completely fine and shouldn't change." Call it strawmanning all you want, but I'm just reducing your points down. People are fed up with it becuase it sucks. If you're not, fine, whatever, bet you'd fit in really well in the GW facebook comments.
No one is disagreeing that the Marine releases are overblown and got out of control since the Primaris were announced. Even the most die hard Marine players admit it. It was more a point that it's not recent that Marines got the lionshare of the studio's attention and pretending it was a new change was disingenuous.
But go on, pretend you have some moral high ground because people point out you were wrong, and then strawman them all into a position no one is taking.
So why are you defending the state of things so far? If they - in your words "got out of control" how is this not a "new change"? We all know that it's not a recent thing that marines have dominated the release schedule, but the scale - the number of consecutive months when they've dominated previews, dominated release slots, campaign books, codex updates, box sets in the last few editions, at the pace they've been doing it is clearly alienating players.
Even if we look at the so-called big releases like GSC, Admech, even death guard the totals of kits, the multiples of unit types are dwarfed significantly be the attention that Marines have been getting, and where all of those release slots had an end, with, in most cases, no tangible schedule for future releases that marines get.
I don't recall having this many profiles for bolt weapons in any other edition of the game, nor the acceleration that we keep seeing.
All of this is a real factor in how people, such as myself and OP, are finding ourselves frustrated and burned out at the current state of affairs. A change of pace would absolutely make the game healthier.
Your bleeding heart act that "oh, it really is terrible that marines dominate the 40k output of GW" is pretty unconvincing when you continue to agitate for "no-one disagree with me because GW have been doing this for years, and so it's completely fine and shouldn't change." Call it strawmanning all you want, but I'm just reducing your points down. People are fed up with it becuase it sucks. If you're not, fine, whatever, bet you'd fit in really well in the GW facebook comments.
Why are you pushing me to defend a position I'm not taking? I don't think GW's current release scheme is correct, I've merely stated that we can't pretend that this is anything new. It's the same trajectory GW has had for years, just taken to 11.
You haven't reduced my points, you've made up new ones for me to defend and then attacked them while I wasn't even arguing them in the first place. No one is white knighting GW over this, we're just saying that this gak isn't new, so let's not claim it is.
And I've personally just started to come back from a break because the start of 9th was burning me out. All Astartes and Custodes, and then an FAQ that should have been released on Day 1 withheld for a codex release, and then it was haphazardly applied. I don't think GW has been doing a good job with the rules releases around 9th, even if I'm a big fan of the Crusade system.
Even if marines are popular and sells a lot it isn't in the interest of GW if the game becomes Horus Heresy 2. Just look at tournament attendance from before Covid and compare it to 6+ months earlier. Lots of events had up to 50% drop in numbers. Like 30% (including me) dropped from the last tournament my club held in February.
I didn't drop because of the power level of marines since I play BA and we had just gotten huge improvements in CA and PA. But I didn't look forward to play 3 games against IH and 2 against RG/WS/IF. Most of those I know that dropped had a marine army or at least access to one so if they wanted to they could play marines. In the summer before there were 0 codex marines in the 3 events I played in and only 2 blood angels players and 1 space wolf player so the game thrived here when Xenos and other imperials werent the NPC factions.
Those that want marine Vs marine already have another game to play. I don't know any marine player iRL who isn't suffering from primaris fatigue at this point.
Klickor wrote: Even if marines are popular and sells a lot it isn't in the interest of GW if the game becomes Horus Heresy 2. Just look at tournament attendance from before Covid and compare it to 6+ months earlier. Lots of events had up to 50% drop in numbers. Like 30% (including me) dropped from the last tournament my club held in February.
I didn't drop because of the power level of marines since I play BA and we had just gotten huge improvements in CA and PA. But I didn't look forward to play 3 games against IH and 2 against RG/WS/IF. Most of those I know that dropped had a marine army or at least access to one so if they wanted to they could play marines. In the summer before there were 0 codex marines in the 3 events I played in and only 2 blood angels players and 1 space wolf player so the game thrived here when Xenos and other imperials werent the NPC factions.
Those that want marine Vs marine already have another game to play. I don't know any marine player iRL who isn't suffering from primaris fatigue at this point.
I'm slowly working on a Black Templar Primaris crusade but honestly I'm not sure when I'll be actually putting them on the table. I'm just not a fan of all these power armour punch ups. Good thing I've been looking at a second army that I can wheel out, and been looking pretty heavily at Xenos factions. Been looking at Orks and Dark Eldar the most, just trying to pick something between them.
Klickor wrote: Even if marines are popular and sells a lot it isn't in the interest of GW if the game becomes Horus Heresy 2. Just look at tournament attendance from before Covid and compare it to 6+ months earlier. Lots of events had up to 50% drop in numbers. Like 30% (including me) dropped from the last tournament my club held in February.
I didn't drop because of the power level of marines since I play BA and we had just gotten huge improvements in CA and PA. But I didn't look forward to play 3 games against IH and 2 against RG/WS/IF. Most of those I know that dropped had a marine army or at least access to one so if they wanted to they could play marines. In the summer before there were 0 codex marines in the 3 events I played in and only 2 blood angels players and 1 space wolf player so the game thrived here when Xenos and other imperials werent the NPC factions.
Those that want marine Vs marine already have another game to play. I don't know any marine player iRL who isn't suffering from primaris fatigue at this point.
But your issue isn't the speed or volume of releases, it's because people are flocking to the "best" rules expecting to win more. Yes the marine book is/was very good, but if all people care about is the easiest wins then they don't care what army they play with/against, or how new the models are.
The second anyone uses tournament attendance or results to attack volume of model releases, they're unrelated. Balance =/= release schedule.
Phobos wrote: It is literally the only explanation that makes ANY sense. If it was about blob units and cost of entry, WHFB as a setting didn't need to go away. Games Workshop needed a clean slate to work from to develop the new story with Sigmarines at the center of it.The fact that WHFB was nearly dead and had poor sales and yadda yadda yadda is likely what convinced them that starting fresh and making it more like 40K with a central faction is the right thing to do.
Of course, that's not the reason that WHFB had problems. But suits only understand branding, not games.
Phobos wrote: It is literally the only explanation that makes ANY sense. If it was about blob units and cost of entry, WHFB as a setting didn't need to go away. Games Workshop needed a clean slate to work from to develop the new story with Sigmarines at the center of it.The fact that WHFB was nearly dead and had poor sales and yadda yadda yadda is likely what convinced them that starting fresh and making it more like 40K with a central faction is the right thing to do.
Of course, that's not the reason that WHFB had problems. But suits only understand branding, not games.
Kirby was running the show with his "we sell models, not games" approach and it was hurting the company bad. WFB ended up being the canary in the coal mine that caused them to change course though.
I've brought this up before, but the accelerated Marine release schedule and Codex 2.0 almost killed 40k in my local area before lockdown. Local tournament attendance plummeted and people struggled to find games with their Marines on the FB groups because they got sick of playing mirror match-ups. Even before second lockdown people were generally staying away from Marines unless it was a league game that they had to play and there was even a bit of drama amongst the local Crusade campaign being run of people accusing Marine players of powergaming (when all they were doing was playing a "normal" army, but it kind of shows that the average power level and un-fun nature of the book is still very much a thing)
It can kind of be summed with how one of the LGS managers saw the situation: the new Marine Codex saw a lot of sales of models, but longterm it hurt his specific shop/club because less people were coming in to play games, and with less people there it meant less small purchases, less money on pay to play and less money on tournament attendance.
Now obviously Marines are still selling like gangbusters, but if that sort of behaviour becomes a more widespread thing and draws more and more people away I wonder how viable such a release schedule is long-term. There's also the issue of: where do they go from here? Obviously one or two gaps remain in the Primaris range, but after that how do they add to it to keep the money coming in? The Primaris themselves were a soft admission that they'd basically milked the Marine idea dry already and so needed to soft reboot it, but that initially took 30 years to come about. The Primaris range is already bloated and close to running out of ideas and it's only been 3. I am incredibly curious as to what their plans are.
I talked about Marine Whales previously and who knows, maybe those guys just collecting obscene amounts of Space Marines because they can could offset the abandonment of the game by everyone else. It's basically the business model of every lootbox and gacha game and it seems to work for them.
ccs wrote: ...1at: They have no reason to change what's working for them.
2nd: Marines have been the stars of 40k since RT hit the shelves & this isn't changing any time in your lifetime. So you'd best reconcile yourselves with that fact.
Obviously. There's no possible reason that one army shouldn't be vastly over-supported and everyone else should have to wait a decade between releases. It's the best strategy to make any game work and we all need to shut up, stop whining, and get used to it, because there's no way GW ever changes anything in response to consumer complaints, like when they deleted USRs or made vehicles and MCs use the same statlines or got rid of D-weapons or gave everyone the same CP dependent on game size and penalized taking extra detachments or started giving out mono-faction bonuses...
If whining never worked sure, folks would get fed up and stop whining, but with GW whining sometimes works.
I'm just saying you'll die angry & bitter long before SM aren't the focus & most well supported 40k faction....
Bosskelot wrote: I've brought this up before, but the accelerated Marine release schedule and Codex 2.0 almost killed 40k in my local area before lockdown. Local tournament attendance plummeted and people struggled to find games with their Marines on the FB groups because they got sick of playing mirror match-ups. Even before second lockdown people were generally staying away from Marines unless it was a league game that they had to play and there was even a bit of drama amongst the local Crusade campaign being run of people accusing Marine players of powergaming (when all they were doing was playing a "normal" army, but it kind of shows that the average power level and un-fun nature of the book is still very much a thing)
It can kind of be summed with how one of the LGS managers saw the situation: the new Marine Codex saw a lot of sales of models, but longterm it hurt his specific shop/club because less people were coming in to play games, and with less people there it meant less small purchases, less money on pay to play and less money on tournament attendance.
Now obviously Marines are still selling like gangbusters, but if that sort of behaviour becomes a more widespread thing and draws more and more people away I wonder how viable such a release schedule is long-term. There's also the issue of: where do they go from here? Obviously one or two gaps remain in the Primaris range, but after that how do they add to it to keep the money coming in? The Primaris themselves were a soft admission that they'd basically milked the Marine idea dry already and so needed to soft reboot it, but that initially took 30 years to come about. The Primaris range is already bloated and close to running out of ideas and it's only been 3. I am incredibly curious as to what their plans are.
I talked about Marine Whales previously and who knows, maybe those guys just collecting obscene amounts of Space Marines because they can could offset the abandonment of the game by everyone else. It's basically the business model of every lootbox and gacha game and it seems to work for them.
Quoting xeno from the lancer thread:
Xenomancers wrote: Oh for sure. I have an end game here. My priamris strike force on display will be lit.
1 Astraeus
3 Repulsors
2 Executionsers
2 Gladiators
3 Impulsors
(Eventually 2 of the new land speeders)
Not to mention so really awesome apoc games.
It's just sad to me that across the board we can have such a wide disparity in 3 kits coming from the same box. This goes for any army.
Yeah I think some marine players will keep the lights on.
ccs wrote: ...1at: They have no reason to change what's working for them.
2nd: Marines have been the stars of 40k since RT hit the shelves & this isn't changing any time in your lifetime. So you'd best reconcile yourselves with that fact.
Obviously. There's no possible reason that one army shouldn't be vastly over-supported and everyone else should have to wait a decade between releases. It's the best strategy to make any game work and we all need to shut up, stop whining, and get used to it, because there's no way GW ever changes anything in response to consumer complaints, like when they deleted USRs or made vehicles and MCs use the same statlines or got rid of D-weapons or gave everyone the same CP dependent on game size and penalized taking extra detachments or started giving out mono-faction bonuses...
If whining never worked sure, folks would get fed up and stop whining, but with GW whining sometimes works.
I'm just saying you'll die angry & bitter long before SM aren't the focus & most well supported 40k faction....
By focus you mean obsession.
It's one thing to focus on a side in such a game it's a whole other to pull a GW and yeet other factions in favour of Primaris leutnants.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Which leads to some people having an issue. Either they need to just come right out and say the bias, or fix the very obvious bias.
I think fixing it would do wonders to not only let marine players relax every now and then but also let some other players get a long time in the sun free from the monthly primaris LT or next slew of marine model bloat tossed out.
I'm pretty sure the bias has been obvious for ages. I mean Marines got the first plastic kit, and they're literally the sale promo material:
Spoiler:
Let's be honest: it's never not been obvious that Marines are THE poster child.
Poster child and literally around half the forces of a system are branches of that same army is a different beast though. I can also say there were times sometimes up to half a year when there weren't marine releases at all. It's easy to forget that but I know there were large bits of time I had no new models to pick up and I played marines as my first army for a long time so if they dropped I would have checked them out. Now it just feels like there may never be a stretch of time marines aren't coming out or on the close radar for coming out. I sometimes wonder how they can keep it up with new units after new units seemingly forever.
Bosskelot wrote: I've brought this up before, but the accelerated Marine release schedule and Codex 2.0 almost killed 40k in my local area before lockdown. Local tournament attendance plummeted and people struggled to find games with their Marines on the FB groups because they got sick of playing mirror match-ups. Even before second lockdown people were generally staying away from Marines unless it was a league game that they had to play and there was even a bit of drama amongst the local Crusade campaign being run of people accusing Marine players of powergaming (when all they were doing was playing a "normal" army, but it kind of shows that the average power level and un-fun nature of the book is still very much a thing)
It can kind of be summed with how one of the LGS managers saw the situation: the new Marine Codex saw a lot of sales of models, but longterm it hurt his specific shop/club because less people were coming in to play games, and with less people there it meant less small purchases, less money on pay to play and less money on tournament attendance.
Now obviously Marines are still selling like gangbusters, but if that sort of behaviour becomes a more widespread thing and draws more and more people away I wonder how viable such a release schedule is long-term. There's also the issue of: where do they go from here? Obviously one or two gaps remain in the Primaris range, but after that how do they add to it to keep the money coming in? The Primaris themselves were a soft admission that they'd basically milked the Marine idea dry already and so needed to soft reboot it, but that initially took 30 years to come about. The Primaris range is already bloated and close to running out of ideas and it's only been 3. I am incredibly curious as to what their plans are.
I talked about Marine Whales previously and who knows, maybe those guys just collecting obscene amounts of Space Marines because they can could offset the abandonment of the game by everyone else. It's basically the business model of every lootbox and gacha game and it seems to work for them.
People also forget that an overpowered Marine book means we'll see a glut of Marine players as everyone has at least a small Marine army in their closet/basement and building one tends to be easy with the historical glut of cheap Marine boxes, whereas an overpowered non-Marine army does not engender as much of a growth as most people don't want to collect an army from scratch. Even when Ynnari was its height you wouldn't see many on the local level and the only places they appeared en masse was in big tournaments.
I would not be surprised if GW would see a ripple effect from this even though they are basking in money right now. Hope they manage to prevent that by providing very strong non-Marine books in the upcoming months.
ccs wrote: ...1at: They have no reason to change what's working for them.
2nd: Marines have been the stars of 40k since RT hit the shelves & this isn't changing any time in your lifetime. So you'd best reconcile yourselves with that fact.
Obviously. There's no possible reason that one army shouldn't be vastly over-supported and everyone else should have to wait a decade between releases. It's the best strategy to make any game work and we all need to shut up, stop whining, and get used to it, because there's no way GW ever changes anything in response to consumer complaints, like when they deleted USRs or made vehicles and MCs use the same statlines or got rid of D-weapons or gave everyone the same CP dependent on game size and penalized taking extra detachments or started giving out mono-faction bonuses...
If whining never worked sure, folks would get fed up and stop whining, but with GW whining sometimes works.
I'm just saying you'll die angry & bitter long before SM aren't the focus & most well supported 40k faction....
By focus you mean obsession.
It's one thing to focus on a side in such a game it's a whole other to pull a GW and yeet other factions in favour of Primaris leutnants.
GW haven't dropped any core forces to produce Lieutenants, I know you're mad about R&H but when you can't buy an army in the first place and is presumably low sales what they did wasn't related to selling more primaris. I expect we'll see plastic R&H before long.
Ofc because that isn't an xenos army I'm sure it will still annoy some people.
R&h very much are supposed to be a core faction. And yes GW has dropped core factions and units options just in favour of bolter porn or is the thinnening of DE imagined? There are more fething Lieutenants than certain armies have units as a whole. That is a issue, end of story because these take up unnecessary rules release slots AND are an insult torwards SM players and non SM players because feth buying 3- diffrent loudout lieutenants when a singular fething set could do it. Meanwhile the non SM player get's less and less production capability alocated.
Dudeface wrote: GW haven't dropped any core forces to produce Lieutenants, I know you're mad about R&H but when you can't buy an army in the first place and is presumably low sales what they did wasn't related to selling more primaris. I expect we'll see plastic R&H before long.
Ofc because that isn't an xenos army I'm sure it will still annoy some people.
That might be true, but instead of making half of those lieutenants, they could have made a big mek with KFF, some archon or succubus with new weapon options, a phoenix lord, a skitarri HQ, a GK brother-captain, or a new variant of all the other ancient finecast models.
It's not like there is a lack of characters that could use new options/an alternative model/a model at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ClockworkZion wrote: I'm slowly working on a Black Templar Primaris crusade but honestly I'm not sure when I'll be actually putting them on the table. I'm just not a fan of all these power armour punch ups. Good thing I've been looking at a second army that I can wheel out, and been looking pretty heavily at Xenos factions. Been looking at Orks and Dark Eldar the most, just trying to pick something between them.
Go for orks. Since 8th, they are probable one of the few factions that is getting exactly as much love as every faction should be getting.
Dudeface wrote: GW haven't dropped any core forces to produce Lieutenants, I know you're mad about R&H but when you can't buy an army in the first place and is presumably low sales what they did wasn't related to selling more primaris. I expect we'll see plastic R&H before long.
Ofc because that isn't an xenos army I'm sure it will still annoy some people.
That might be true, but instead of making half of those lieutenants, they could have made a big mek with KFF, some archon or succubus with new weapon options, a phoenix lord, a skitarri HQ, a GK brother-captain, or a new variant of all the other ancient finecast models.
It's not like there is a lack of characters that could use new options/an alternative model/a model at all.
this.
heck GW bothered to make more needless CSMhq options, like the Master of executions or the MoP, which both could've been consolidated into a singular sorcerer and Exalted champion as options for a propper kit along the lines of the old terminator lord, and in the rules as a dual kit / option for a psy discipline, that way the HQ kit's might be more justifyable even from a pricing standpoint.
Meanwhile DE charachters of the one faction that revolves around individualistic BDSM enthusiastic bastards that circle backstab each other for personal gain and their vanities and urges has an armory and ammount of options for it's HQ that's fething laughable.
Also, the blatant favouritism is even showable with what got legended and replaced, considering SM got a whole instant new biker chaplain, meanwhile CSM lost all theirs (not even going into daemonic mounts)? DE? When was the last check up on Orks, which recently got their biker boss back..
ccs wrote: ...1at: They have no reason to change what's working for them.
2nd: Marines have been the stars of 40k since RT hit the shelves & this isn't changing any time in your lifetime. So you'd best reconcile yourselves with that fact.
Obviously. There's no possible reason that one army shouldn't be vastly over-supported and everyone else should have to wait a decade between releases. It's the best strategy to make any game work and we all need to shut up, stop whining, and get used to it, because there's no way GW ever changes anything in response to consumer complaints, like when they deleted USRs or made vehicles and MCs use the same statlines or got rid of D-weapons or gave everyone the same CP dependent on game size and penalized taking extra detachments or started giving out mono-faction bonuses...
If whining never worked sure, folks would get fed up and stop whining, but with GW whining sometimes works.
I'm just saying you'll die angry & bitter long before SM aren't the focus & most well supported 40k faction....
By focus you mean obsession.
It's one thing to focus on a side in such a game it's a whole other to pull a GW and yeet other factions in favour of Primaris leutnants.
Nope. I mean focus.
Obsession is what some of you suffer from. You keep ranting that "It's not a Xeno!" "GWs is ignoring the Xenos...." And yet there's a Xeno faction that just received a substantial increase....
ccs wrote: ...1at: They have no reason to change what's working for them.
2nd: Marines have been the stars of 40k since RT hit the shelves & this isn't changing any time in your lifetime. So you'd best reconcile yourselves with that fact.
Obviously. There's no possible reason that one army shouldn't be vastly over-supported and everyone else should have to wait a decade between releases. It's the best strategy to make any game work and we all need to shut up, stop whining, and get used to it, because there's no way GW ever changes anything in response to consumer complaints, like when they deleted USRs or made vehicles and MCs use the same statlines or got rid of D-weapons or gave everyone the same CP dependent on game size and penalized taking extra detachments or started giving out mono-faction bonuses...
If whining never worked sure, folks would get fed up and stop whining, but with GW whining sometimes works.
I'm just saying you'll die angry & bitter long before SM aren't the focus & most well supported 40k faction....
By focus you mean obsession.
It's one thing to focus on a side in such a game it's a whole other to pull a GW and yeet other factions in favour of Primaris leutnants.
Nope. I mean focus.
Obsession is what some of you suffer from. You keep ranting that "It's not a Xeno!" "GWs is ignoring the Xenos...." And yet there's a Xeno faction that just received a substantial increase....
Sure, come back when you actually read what i stated.
Not Online!!! 794465 11003378 wrote:
Also, the blatant favouritism is even showable with what got legended and replaced, considering SM got a whole instant new biker chaplain, meanwhile CSM lost all theirs (not even going into daemonic mounts)? DE? When was the last check up on Orks, which recently got their biker boss back..
Isn't it the case of GW not having new models for them. And it is easier for them to implement demons on demonic mounts, because those cross over in AoS.
Although it does rise one question. How hard would it be to make a khorn demon mounted model, with two separate backs? One the AoS cloak+skulls etc and one with a marine back pack. AoS blood warriors practicaly look like khorn berzerkers should minus the back packs. So maybe in the future some sort of dual faction box may happen, if GW feels really gracious.
Klickor wrote: Even if marines are popular and sells a lot it isn't in the interest of GW if the game becomes Horus Heresy 2. Just look at tournament attendance from before Covid and compare it to 6+ months earlier. Lots of events had up to 50% drop in numbers. Like 30% (including me) dropped from the last tournament my club held in February.
I didn't drop because of the power level of marines since I play BA and we had just gotten huge improvements in CA and PA. But I didn't look forward to play 3 games against IH and 2 against RG/WS/IF. Most of those I know that dropped had a marine army or at least access to one so if they wanted to they could play marines. In the summer before there were 0 codex marines in the 3 events I played in and only 2 blood angels players and 1 space wolf player so the game thrived here when Xenos and other imperials werent the NPC factions.
Those that want marine Vs marine already have another game to play. I don't know any marine player iRL who isn't suffering from primaris fatigue at this point.
But your issue isn't the speed or volume of releases, it's because people are flocking to the "best" rules expecting to win more. Yes the marine book is/was very good, but if all people care about is the easiest wins then they don't care what army they play with/against, or how new the models are.
The second anyone uses tournament attendance or results to attack volume of model releases, they're unrelated. Balance =/= release schedule.
I dont think it would have been so bad if the other factions got a lot of new models and marines only had an OP codex. Then people could get excited about new armies and models for those and just ignore the competetive meta for a while. But if all they get is more and more marine models and nothing to their other armies then they just lose motivation and feel like its a marine vs marine arms race. Doesnt help that in the last 16 months we have had 2 marine codex, 8 marine supplements and I think at least 2 or maybe even 3 of the Psychic awakening books were mostly marines as well. So all you see is more and more marines on the horizon.
16 months of constant marine releases and there are still Dark Angels, maybe Black Templars as well, for book releases left. We are still waiting for a number more of marine kits as well. Eradicators, Bladeguard Veterans, Heavy Intercessors and Suppressors. Almost forgot the new speeders that are coming some time soon too.
At least Necrons are getting a boost in popularity due to the new models and rules. It is weird that Primaris is getting their FIFTH(fourth kit) troop unit when firstborns had ~2 for decades. Primaris have HQ and Troop choices enough for 3 whole factions at this point. Wouldnt be out of place at all if it werent for Primaris being the newest faction and being a sub faction of the already largest faction so they didnt really need that anything that quickly. Halving the amount of Primaris would still make it an effort for the marine player to keep up and divert resources that could be used to increase interest in the other factions.
Not Online!!! 794465 11003378 wrote:
Also, the blatant favouritism is even showable with what got legended and replaced, considering SM got a whole instant new biker chaplain, meanwhile CSM lost all theirs (not even going into daemonic mounts)? DE? When was the last check up on Orks, which recently got their biker boss back..
Isn't it the case of GW not having new models for them. And it is easier for them to implement demons on demonic mounts, because those cross over in AoS.
Although it does rise one question. How hard would it be to make a khorn demon mounted model, with two separate backs? One the AoS cloak+skulls etc and one with a marine back pack. AoS blood warriors practicaly look like khorn berzerkers should minus the back packs. So maybe in the future some sort of dual faction box may happen, if GW feels really gracious.
How do you think most CSM players create ATM berzerkers?
It's stupidly easy, just as it was to put a berzerker on top of a Khorne juggernaught(? forgot the name, the one were bloodletters sit ontop)
Thing is though, GW doesn't want to because GW made an oopsie in regards to copyright law. And instead of beeing responible threw a tantrum and removed any non GW produced option of equipment or HQ, regardless how easy it was to convert these out of the baseline kits from 40k itself, only to spite the custommer base and deny 3rd party sales.
Not Online!!! 794465 11003378 wrote:
Also, the blatant favouritism is even showable with what got legended and replaced, considering SM got a whole instant new biker chaplain, meanwhile CSM lost all theirs (not even going into daemonic mounts)? DE? When was the last check up on Orks, which recently got their biker boss back..
Instead of being responible threw a tantrum and removed any non GW produced option of equipment or HQ, regardless how easy it was to convert these out of the baseline kits from 40k itself, only to spite the custommer base and deny 3rd party sales.
I actually wouldn't have minded this practice that much if they had then continued on to make sure every kit was overflowing with different options - so they could follow the "no kit, no models" paradigm without limiting options at all.
Instead, they seem to have done the exact opposite. More and more kits are coming out monopose with few or even no options at all.
My beautiful Sanguinary Priest is a perfect example, he's a a lovely model but has no poseability and no options at all. He doesn't even have a fething Jump Pack, he's supposed to be equal in stature to a Librarian but is stuck with a smaller armoury than a sergeant? It's just so lame.
You are overthinking this. You just use the actual lord of khorne on a juggernaut and swap out the shield arm with one holding a bolt pistol or whatever else in your bits box strikes your fancy.
i take your sanguinary priest and raise by Exalted champion, warpsmith, Master of executions and Master of possessions, not having in some cases even baseline equipment options nor mobility options.
And then i raise by archons...
The funny thing is that they dont have this policy with their LOTR game. There are lots of units with options that GW have never released models for. They didnt remove all those options when they rebooted the game as MESBG.
Sure, they dont have the same rights to the IP as for their 100% own products but it still encourages people to look for substitutes outside of GW. If I need to do heavy converting work or buy 3d party for my heroes why not just do that for my whole army? Sure for offical events you need GW models but what if I don't live in Nottingham?
Klickor wrote: The funny thing is that they dont have this policy with their LOTR game. There are lots of units with options that GW have never released models for. They didnt remove all those options when they rebooted the game as MESBG.
Sure, they dont have the same rights to the IP as for their 100% own products but it still encourages people to look for substitutes outside of GW. If I need to do heavy converting work or buy 3d party for my heroes why not just do that for my whole army? Sure for offical events you need GW models but what if I don't live in Nottingham?
It also encourages kitbashing which means buying multiple GW boxes you may not have bought otherwise. I bought a box of 3 ork warbikes, because I need one for kitbashing a warboss on bike. I wouldn't have bought that kit of bikes (the warboss I got it second hand) if the option of a bike for a warboss wasn't available, like in 8th.
I also bought and additional box of SW terminators just to kitbash characters in terminator armour. I wouldn't have done it if those characters didn't have the terminator armour as an available option to take.
For all the steps forward GW take in some regards they take huge regressions back and I feel like its the suits telling the game folk which way is up. I think most people who have played the game for awhile have used kits to make characters from them as opposed to just buying all the character models. However this is a dying thing it feels like for GW games.
I definitely feel that GW's models have moved further and further away from being game-friendly.
It's the irony that even back in the day when GW very explicitly insisted they made "models, not games" their models were far more suited to gaming pieces than they are today.
Kits with limited to no poseability are great if you want a display piece, they're naff if you're going to want several boxes to build an army.
Kits with extremely dynamic, very spindly, detail also look great as a display piece. They're not so great if they take up an entire hardcase to themselves and break from a withering glare.
Pretty much every kit GW puts out nowadays suffers from one or both of those issues.
kirotheavenger wrote: I definitely feel that GW's models have moved further and further away from being game-friendly.
.
And this is one of the reasons why people pick marines too. It is much easier to take an intercessor and slap a jump pack and him, and presto a jump pack captin with terras teeth. Comparing to the hurdel one has to go through, with resculpting and removing hair, smoke, bugs and whole missing model sections if you want to convert a new model from most other factions. I get that details are important. I like the ones GK termis have on them. Enough to make them special, but not enough to clutter the models. And I think if someone has them in plastic it is easier to convert or change the models comparing to something like the new dark eldar models . In fact I would even go as far as saying that GW makes their own models look worse then they really are by adding some of the cool effects to the models. Maybe they look cool if you paint the models well or paint the models at all, but they don't if you aren't that much of a painter.
Also fully agree about the forced dynamic poses. Hard to transport, and look ,at least to me, kind of a silly when every 5th model in each squad is doing the same kind of back flip.
kirotheavenger wrote: I definitely feel that GW's models have moved further and further away from being game-friendly.
.
In fact I would even go as far as saying that GW makes their own models look worse then they really are by adding some of the cool effects to the models. Maybe they look cool if you paint the models well or paint the models at all, but they don't if you aren't that much of a painter.
This is a very good point. I was quite surprised that Deathguard were in the previous starter set, with all their pustules, tumours, and other gribbly bits those are very intimidating to paint right out of the gate.
And as you say a lot of the stuff on the new Necrons is quite challenging, like the stealing-life-essence whatever.
Looks amazing when painted by a professional painter, and makes for a lot of character in a diorama. But it's really not something a newbie wants to be painting and carrying around.
And so new players are driven to Space Marines not just because they're the poster boys, but because the models are something they can do justice even at their skill level.
I suspect this is deliberate, although Blade Guard perhaps question that notion, I imagine that's more an attempt to sell Primaris to people preferring the more grimdark aesthetic of 'Firstborn'.
Klickor wrote: Even if marines are popular and sells a lot it isn't in the interest of GW if the game becomes Horus Heresy 2. Just look at tournament attendance from before Covid and compare it to 6+ months earlier. Lots of events had up to 50% drop in numbers. Like 30% (including me) dropped from the last tournament my club held in February.
I didn't drop because of the power level of marines since I play BA and we had just gotten huge improvements in CA and PA. But I didn't look forward to play 3 games against IH and 2 against RG/WS/IF. Most of those I know that dropped had a marine army or at least access to one so if they wanted to they could play marines. In the summer before there were 0 codex marines in the 3 events I played in and only 2 blood angels players and 1 space wolf player so the game thrived here when Xenos and other imperials werent the NPC factions.
Those that want marine Vs marine already have another game to play. I don't know any marine player iRL who isn't suffering from primaris fatigue at this point.
But your issue isn't the speed or volume of releases, it's because people are flocking to the "best" rules expecting to win more. Yes the marine book is/was very good, but if all people care about is the easiest wins then they don't care what army they play with/against, or how new the models are.
The second anyone uses tournament attendance or results to attack volume of model releases, they're unrelated. Balance =/= release schedule.
I dont think it would have been so bad if the other factions got a lot of new models and marines only had an OP codex. Then people could get excited about new armies and models for those and just ignore the competetive meta for a while. But if all they get is more and more marine models and nothing to their other armies then they just lose motivation and feel like its a marine vs marine arms race. Doesnt help that in the last 16 months we have had 2 marine codex, 8 marine supplements and I think at least 2 or maybe even 3 of the Psychic awakening books were mostly marines as well. So all you see is more and more marines on the horizon.
16 months of constant marine releases and there are still Dark Angels, maybe Black Templars as well, for book releases left. We are still waiting for a number more of marine kits as well. Eradicators, Bladeguard Veterans, Heavy Intercessors and Suppressors. Almost forgot the new speeders that are coming some time soon too.
At least Necrons are getting a boost in popularity due to the new models and rules. It is weird that Primaris is getting their FIFTH(fourth kit) troop unit when firstborns had ~2 for decades. Primaris have HQ and Troop choices enough for 3 whole factions at this point. Wouldnt be out of place at all if it werent for Primaris being the newest faction and being a sub faction of the already largest faction so they didnt really need that anything that quickly. Halving the amount of Primaris would still make it an effort for the marine player to keep up and divert resources that could be used to increase interest in the other factions.
I disagree, if you're entering a competitive event people will take any little edge rules wise they can, marines are widely available even without new releases so when the top codex is marines you will see vastly more marines in competitive events. Some of the more casual players might want to play with their new shiny models for faction X, but any serious gamers will lean into the strongest rules.
That is of course ignoring the fact that there shouldn't be an OP codex. In an ideal world all armies would have similar power levels and a varied release structure.
The rest of your post is a mix of threads of thought, the perception of marines swamping the release schedule is tricky as they can release those supplements and kits all in 1 month, it doesn't change how many kits they release and more importantly you then get a lovely 2-3 month gap of no 40k instead. They handled PA badly, but for everyone including marines as because they were a stopgap to turn over some revenue while 9th hits.
Other armies need more units certainly, no arguments and on the whole I agree with what you're saying, it's just I think there are multiple trains of thought in there that make up 1 cohesive issue instead.
kirotheavenger wrote: I definitely feel that GW's models have moved further and further away from being game-friendly.
It's the irony that even back in the day when GW very explicitly insisted they made "models, not games" their models were far more suited to gaming pieces than they are today.
Kits with limited to no poseability are great if you want a display piece, they're naff if you're going to want several boxes to build an army.
Kits with extremely dynamic, very spindly, detail also look great as a display piece. They're not so great if they take up an entire hardcase to themselves and break from a withering glare.
Pretty much every kit GW puts out nowadays suffers from one or both of those issues.
This is very true.
There also seem to be an increasing number of models with very awkward limb attachments. For example, instead of having individual arms as separate pieces, you'll instead have the upper-arm moulded to the torso and then the lower part of the arm will be a separate piece.
As you can imagine, this is something of a pain when it comes to conversions.
And yes, I realise that you can just cut the entire arm off with a blade or saw. However (and maybe I'm alone in this), when I'm making a conversion I'll often want to try different arms on the model and see how they look (some might not fit at all or might look wrong with the model's pose etc.). Hence, I'd prefer not to ruin a model by cutting off one of its arms, only to then discover that said arm wouldn't work for my purposes after all.
Not Online!!! wrote: R&h very much are supposed to be a core faction.
And yes GW has dropped core factions and units options just in favour of bolter porn or is the thinnening of DE imagined?
There are more fething Lieutenants than certain armies have units as a whole. That is a issue, end of story because these take up unnecessary rules release slots AND are an insult torwards SM players and non SM players because feth buying 3- diffrent loudout lieutenants when a singular fething set could do it. Meanwhile the non SM player get's less and less production capability alocated.
They're a core faction in the fluff, the range however was not, nor were the rules. They were made by FW hen they operated independently from the main studio, but you know that as well as I do.
Chopping some wargear options out because there isn't a model isn't the same as dropping a core faction, they've not done that since squats.
I feel from your language you're taking the lieutenants thing a little too personally, yes there are too many, yes they should have used the resources on other stuff. But you cannot conclusively state they've avoided anything else to make lieutenants, they don't take up "rules release slots" purely for lieutenants, I think you're channelling far too much emotional investment into the lieutenant count.
Gitdakka wrote: I dont think 3d printing is the main challenge to GWs dominant position. Their mainstream design direction, lack of proper game design and unreasonable pricing model will push away enthusiasts and leave the market wide open to another wargame product with more heart and a more fair buisness model. Some other company will make compelling and affordable plastic miniatures with an actuall fun game attached to it and then GW will have dug their own grave too deep to compete. That's my theory at least.
Eventually giants fall.
That sums up what people have said for best part of 2 decades. I remember when Mantic launched and Ronnie was going to save the day by being freed from the shackles of GW and it would be amazing because the armies would be so cheap in comparison, but you weren't forced to use their minis. They've not toppled GW yet, or even got near.
This is a false sense of security. Like people living next to a dormant volcano or population in a country that has endured 100 years of peace. Gw not being outcompeted in the past is not a freepass. Looking at their current sutuation it seems they are arrogant with pricing strategy and lack the actual artistry and soul they used to have. It's like looking at the late roman empire, slowly degrading without taking the proper counter actions. They are not creative like they used to be and their time is ending soon I think.
kirotheavenger wrote: However (and maybe I'm alone in this), when I'm making a conversion I'll often want to try different arms on the model and see how they look (some might not fit at all or might look wrong with the model's pose etc.). Hence, I'd prefer not to ruin a model by cutting off one of its arms, only to then discover that said arm wouldn't work for my purposes after all.
You're definitely not alone in this.
Although I don't do much conversion work, 40k is expensive enough without buying kits for nothing but parts.
I think it's a valid point about lieutenants though.
The studio only has a finite amount of time to design things, objectively every second they put into modelling and producing a Lieutenant is something they haven't put towards other characters or kits which are perhaps more in need.
I really dislike the obsession with Lieutenants, the models are bland and pretty much just alternate posings of existing kits (I'm pretty sure this is deliberate as they can double as sergeants so people keep buying after they've already got two Lieutenants).
I feel from your language you're taking the lieutenants thing a little too personally, yes there are too many, yes they should have used the resources on other stuff. But you cannot conclusively state they've avoided anything else to make lieutenants, they don't take up "rules release slots" purely for lieutenants, I think you're channelling far too much emotional investment into the lieutenant count.
I think Lieutenants just stand out as one of the most egregious examples not just of Marine favouritism but of the sheer waste that's permitted for Marines, whilst other armies are expected to survive on table scraps.
There is absolutely no reason why Primaris needed 17 different lieutenant models. This is something that could have been done simply by having one, maybe two models and just including alternative wargear options.
And while it's technically possible that GW could have spent the time and energy spent making those Primaris lieutenants just picking their collective noses, it's far more likely that that time would have been used on other projects instead.
That said, if you would prefer me not to put all the blame on the lieutenants, then I am happy to blame Primaris as a whole. However much one likes the concept, giving Marines - already the best-supported army in the game by far - what amounts to a whole new army was something that should have been done *after* other codices were given the models that they've needed for years or even decades. Dark Eldar have lost the majority of their characters and HQ options and received 0 new ones throughout the entirety of 8th. There existed the time and resources to give Marines a whole new range, but not to make even a single new DEHQ (and no, I don't count Drazhar because he already existed - whereas Skyboard Archons, Jetbike haemonculi, Dracons, Vect etc. don't even exist in Legends).
Most of the Eldar sculpts are old enough to drink, yet only two of them were updated, and then at a prohibitively high cost. There existed the time and resources to give Marines a whole new range, but not to update more than 2 Eldar models.
If GW had bothered to throw some bones to Xeno factions *first*, I doubt anyone would give a damn how many Primaris Lieutenants they made afterwards. I doubt anyone would care all that much about Marines constantly being in the spotlight if they at least felt their own faction was in a reasonable place. Instead, what we've seen is more and more attention being given to Marines, whilst already-neglected factions are left to stagnate.
I feel from your language you're taking the lieutenants thing a little too personally, yes there are too many, yes they should have used the resources on other stuff. But you cannot conclusively state they've avoided anything else to make lieutenants, they don't take up "rules release slots" purely for lieutenants, I think you're channelling far too much emotional investment into the lieutenant count.
I think Lieutenants just stand out as one of the most egregious examples not just of Marine favouritism but of the sheer waste that's permitted for Marines, whilst other armies are expected to survive on table scraps.
There is absolutely no reason why Primaris needed 17 different lieutenant models. This is something that could have been done simply by having one, maybe two models and just including alternative wargear options.
And while it's technically possible that GW could have spent the time and energy spent making those Primaris lieutenants just picking their collective noses, it's far more likely that that time would have been used on other projects instead.
That said, if you would prefer me not to put all the blame on the lieutenants, then I am happy to blame Primaris as a whole. However much one likes the concept, giving Marines - already the best-supported army in the game by far - what amounts to a whole new army was something that should have been done *after* other codices were given the models that they've needed for years or even decades. Dark Eldar have lost the majority of their characters and HQ options and received 0 new ones throughout the entirety of 8th. There existed the time and resources to give Marines a whole new range, but not to make even a single new DEHQ (and no, I don't count Drazhar because he already existed - whereas Skyboard Archons, Jetbike haemonculi, Dracons, Vect etc. don't even exist in Legends).
Most of the Eldar sculpts are old enough to drink, yet only two of them were updated, and then at a prohibitively high cost. There existed the time and resources to give Marines a whole new range, but not to update more than 2 Eldar models.
If GW had bothered to throw some bones to Xeno factions *first*, I doubt anyone would give a damn how many Primaris Lieutenants they made afterwards. I doubt anyone would care all that much about Marines constantly being in the spotlight if they at least felt their own faction was in a reasonable place. Instead, what we've seen is more and more attention being given to Marines, whilst already-neglected factions are left to stagnate.
Yeah that makes some sense, either dump them in en mass after some other updates are out etc. or just hold off for a while. I also get they wanted some shiny new fellas for the 8th release, same for 9th, although they could have stood to hold off on the phobos wave, or even just on the extras alongside the 9th release.
There is also nothing wrong with having emotions about your hobby or interests.
But GW obviously will not be doing anything to change how they manage releases, and I think expecting them to change is just gonna lead to disappointment.
GW considers Xenos players second class. Once you accept that it is a lot easier to deal with all of this because you never expect them to give you anything and are never disappointed or frustrated.
Not Online!!! wrote: R&h very much are supposed to be a core faction. And yes GW has dropped core factions and units options just in favour of bolter porn or is the thinnening of DE imagined? There are more fething Lieutenants than certain armies have units as a whole. That is a issue, end of story because these take up unnecessary rules release slots AND are an insult torwards SM players and non SM players because feth buying 3- diffrent loudout lieutenants when a singular fething set could do it. Meanwhile the non SM player get's less and less production capability alocated.
They're a core faction in the fluff, the range however was not, nor were the rules. They were made by FW hen they operated independently from the main studio, but you know that as well as I do.
Wrong, read any IA.
Chopping some wargear options out because there isn't a model isn't the same as dropping a core faction, they've not done that since squats.
So it is acceptable that we got 17 diffrent lieutnants and a brandspanking new SM biker chaplain primaris TM whilest at the same time every other faction lost the bike option more or less.
I feel from your language you're taking the lieutenants thing a little too personally, yes there are too many, yes they should have used the resources on other stuff. But you cannot conclusively state they've avoided anything else to make lieutenants, they don't take up "rules release slots" purely for lieutenants, I think you're channelling far too much emotional investment into the lieutenant count.
Oh the lieutnants are just the pinacle. They are just the salt in the wound. Heck the corresponding wave of Primaris outnumbered the Necrons, and you know what, necrons won't really see anything new this edition anymore, Unlike primaris, for their next big update in 2-3 editions later.
That said, if you would prefer me not to put all the blame on the lieutenants, then I am happy to blame Primaris as a whole. However much one likes the concept, giving Marines - already the best-supported army in the game by far - what amounts to a whole new army was something that should have been done *after* other codices were given the models that they've needed for years or even decades. Dark Eldar have lost the majority of their characters and HQ options and received 0 new ones throughout the entirety of 8th. There existed the time and resources to give Marines a whole new range, but not to make even a single new DEHQ (and no, I don't count Drazhar because he already existed - whereas Skyboard Archons, Jetbike haemonculi, Dracons, Vect etc. don't even exist in Legends).
Most of the Eldar sculpts are old enough to drink, yet only two of them were updated, and then at a prohibitively high cost. There existed the time and resources to give Marines a whole new range, but not to update more than 2 Eldar models.
If GW had bothered to throw some bones to Xeno factions *first*, I doubt anyone would give a damn how many Primaris Lieutenants they made afterwards. I doubt anyone would care all that much about Marines constantly being in the spotlight if they at least felt their own faction was in a reasonable place. Instead, what we've seen is more and more attention being given to Marines, whilst already-neglected factions are left to stagnate.
sadly there is only the possibility to exalt once.
On the Primaris Lieutenants thing, I'm sure I read somewhere that they were done as an exercise for the design team to get started sculpting the new Primaris range - and the people who make such decisions liked what was produced so much that they decided to just sell them all... It was kind of annoying as a non Marines collector but nothing sinister...
That said, if you would prefer me not to put all the blame on the lieutenants, then I am happy to blame Primaris as a whole. However much one likes the concept, giving Marines - already the best-supported army in the game by far - what amounts to a whole new army was something that should have been done *after* other codices were given the models that they've needed for years or even decades. Dark Eldar have lost the majority of their characters and HQ options and received 0 new ones throughout the entirety of 8th. There existed the time and resources to give Marines a whole new range, but not to make even a single new DEHQ (and no, I don't count Drazhar because he already existed - whereas Skyboard Archons, Jetbike haemonculi, Dracons, Vect etc. don't even exist in Legends).
Most of the Eldar sculpts are old enough to drink, yet only two of them were updated, and then at a prohibitively high cost. There existed the time and resources to give Marines a whole new range, but not to update more than 2 Eldar models.
If GW had bothered to throw some bones to Xeno factions *first*, I doubt anyone would give a damn how many Primaris Lieutenants they made afterwards. I doubt anyone would care all that much about Marines constantly being in the spotlight if they at least felt their own faction was in a reasonable place. Instead, what we've seen is more and more attention being given to Marines, whilst already-neglected factions are left to stagnate.
Yeah, it is something I still have to be amazed at that after all this time, after FOUR EDITIONS, the guy, the "Imotekh the Stormlord" "Eldrad Ulthuan" "Ghazghkull" of the Dark Eldar faction STILL HAS NO RULES AND NO MODEL.
Every single bit of dark eldar fluff seems to revolve around him, even now, he's been killed and resurrected and leading the dark eldar off this way and that way and we STILL HAVE NO GOD DAMN MODEL FOR HIM? after all this time, it's incredible.
Not Online!!! wrote: R&h very much are supposed to be a core faction.
And yes GW has dropped core factions and units options just in favour of bolter porn or is the thinnening of DE imagined?
There are more fething Lieutenants than certain armies have units as a whole. That is a issue, end of story because these take up unnecessary rules release slots AND are an insult torwards SM players and non SM players because feth buying 3- diffrent loudout lieutenants when a singular fething set could do it. Meanwhile the non SM player get's less and less production capability alocated.
They're a core faction in the fluff, the range however was not, nor were the rules. They were made by FW hen they operated independently from the main studio, but you know that as well as I do.
Wrong, read any IA.
Chopping some wargear options out because there isn't a model isn't the same as dropping a core faction, they've not done that since squats.
So it is acceptable that we got 17 diffrent lieutnants and a brandspanking new SM biker chaplain primaris TM whilest at the same time every other faction lost the bike option more or less.
I feel from your language you're taking the lieutenants thing a little too personally, yes there are too many, yes they should have used the resources on other stuff. But you cannot conclusively state they've avoided anything else to make lieutenants, they don't take up "rules release slots" purely for lieutenants, I think you're channelling far too much emotional investment into the lieutenant count.
Oh the lieutnants are just the pinacle. They are just the salt in the wound.
Heck the corresponding wave of Primaris outnumbered the Necrons, and you know what, necrons won't really see anything new this edition anymore, Unlike primaris, for their next big update in 2-3 editions later.
That said, if you would prefer me not to put all the blame on the lieutenants, then I am happy to blame Primaris as a whole. However much one likes the concept, giving Marines - already the best-supported army in the game by far - what amounts to a whole new army was something that should have been done *after* other codices were given the models that they've needed for years or even decades. Dark Eldar have lost the majority of their characters and HQ options and received 0 new ones throughout the entirety of 8th. There existed the time and resources to give Marines a whole new range, but not to make even a single new DEHQ (and no, I don't count Drazhar because he already existed - whereas Skyboard Archons, Jetbike haemonculi, Dracons, Vect etc. don't even exist in Legends).
Most of the Eldar sculpts are old enough to drink, yet only two of them were updated, and then at a prohibitively high cost. There existed the time and resources to give Marines a whole new range, but not to update more than 2 Eldar models.
If GW had bothered to throw some bones to Xeno factions *first*, I doubt anyone would give a damn how many Primaris Lieutenants they made afterwards. I doubt anyone would care all that much about Marines constantly being in the spotlight if they at least felt their own faction was in a reasonable place. Instead, what we've seen is more and more attention being given to Marines, whilst already-neglected factions are left to stagnate.
sadly there is only the possibility to exalt once.
IA 5, written by Warwick Kinrade (not a member of the GW rules team).
"This book is not a stand alone supplement... You will need the following codexes: Imperial Guard... Chaos space marines"
"the following army list is a variation on the Imperial Guard Codex list"
Sounds like a supplement and not a core faction.
Is it acceptable that there have been 17 lieutenants? One definition for acceptable is: "able to be tolerated or allowed." I can tolerate it, nobody is disallowing GW from making them so yes it is I guess, but that's subjective mostly. I lost my jugger lord with the option culling, I'm not going to cry because a different army got a mounted character, it has no impact on me.
Maybe necrons will, maybe they won't see more stuff, maybe marines won't, who knows. I'm still waiting for these much prophesised "next wave of marines by easter" people love to proclaim will happen, 4 months to go.
Seriously though, it's not nice what happened to R&H, it'll maybe pave the way for a new plastic army which would be grand. People don't like to lose options, but there's really no point being bitter about it and if you find primaris releases unacceptable, do something about it, getting angry at me won't stop lieutenant 18 being made.
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Crispy78 wrote: On the Primaris Lieutenants thing, I'm sure I read somewhere that they were done as an exercise for the design team to get started sculpting the new Primaris range - and the people who make such decisions liked what was produced so much that they decided to just sell them all... It was kind of annoying as a non Marines collector but nothing sinister...
In fairness to all the Primaris Lieutenants and stuff, if they did that sort of thing to Tyranids (my favourite army) or even to Orks, it would be pretty disheartening. Replacing a SM army with the latest models is so much easier than a 'horde' army.
The biker character thing would be less aggravating if it wasn't for the fact that loyalists still have a datasheet in their codex for a generic "captain on bike" despite the only available model being White Scars specific, so "no model no rules" isn't even enforced equally in that case for loyalists compared to other factions.
As for R&H, IA13 contained a full army list, from infantry and characters to artillery, tanks, aircraft, and even LOWs, no additional codex required. But sure, let's go back all the way to 5th edition and ignore more recent examples.
Nurglitch wrote: In fairness to all the Primaris Lieutenants and stuff, if they did that sort of thing to Tyranids (my favourite army) or even to Orks, it would be pretty disheartening. Replacing a SM army with the latest models is so much easier than a 'horde' army.
....why? I have ancient old minis for most of my factions that I still use in the game. Half my harlequins are rogue trader, I have rogue trader/2nd/3rd ed era eldar (some of the models still current ) and I have rogue trader orks and gretchins.
If GW released Primagaunts or Primorks you'd realistically just do...you know, what every player that's not a spoiled-as-feth tantrum throwing marine fanbaby does: use the models you already have as the new improved unit.
MAYBE you have to, once in 25-30 years, decide in your head that a Harlequin with a Powerfist is now a Harlequin with a Harlequin's Caress?
Gadzilla666 wrote: The biker character thing would be less aggravating if it wasn't for the fact that loyalists still have a datasheet in their codex for a generic "captain on bike" despite the only available model being White Scars specific, so "no model no rules" isn't even enforced equally in that case for loyalists compared to other factions.
As for R&H, IA13 contained a full army list, from infantry and characters to artillery, tanks, aircraft, and even LOWs, no additional codex required. But sure, let's go back all the way to 5th edition and ignore more recent examples.
I was asked to check "any IA book".
But the point is I can't walk into GW and buy renegades and heretics models, they're not a core supported army. Krieg get a bit of a pass by virtue of being a supplement of an existing army.
Nurglitch wrote: In fairness to all the Primaris Lieutenants and stuff, if they did that sort of thing to Tyranids (my favourite army) or even to Orks, it would be pretty disheartening. Replacing a SM army with the latest models is so much easier than a 'horde' army.
....why? I have ancient old minis for most of my factions that I still use in the game. Half my harlequins are rogue trader, I have rogue trader/2nd/3rd ed era eldar (some of the models still current ) and I have rogue trader orks and gretchins.
If GW released Primagaunts or Primorks you'd realistically just do...you know, what every player that's not a spoiled-as-feth tantrum throwing marine fanbaby does: use the models you already have as the new improved unit.
MAYBE you have to, once in 25-30 years, decide in your head that a Harlequin with a Powerfist is now a Harlequin with a Harlequin's Caress?
Bit harder passing off a terminator as a heavy intercessor at an event though isn't it.
While I am mentally able to parse what you wrote, can I have some of what you're smoking please? Gotta admit I'd be happy with manlet marines going away.
Crispy78 wrote: On the Primaris Lieutenants thing, I'm sure I read somewhere that they were done as an exercise for the design team to get started sculpting the new Primaris range - and the people who make such decisions liked what was produced so much that they decided to just sell them all... It was kind of annoying as a non Marines collector but nothing sinister...
I don't think anyone suggested it was sinister. The issue is how space marines have come to dominate the thoughts of GW executives, whilst other factions aren't even considered.
Indeed, I can quite understand someone saying - "You know, the design team has put a lot of effort into these prototype Primaris sculpts and frankly they all look absolutely splendid. What if we just made all of them into models?"
The problem is that apparently no one replied with - "Well that's a great idea but perhaps we should hold off on it for a while? After all, there are a lot of non-Marine factions that are still in dire need of new sculpts. If we instead throw out seventeen different Primaris Lieutenants, it will feel like a slap in the face to players of factions that have been waiting years or even decades for new or updated models."
As I said before, I doubt anyone would have complained about the stupid number of Primaris Lieutenants if GW had only bothered to address model deficiencies in other factions first.
Instead, it seems no one at GW even considered how releasing 17 different Primaris lieutenants would look, when other factions have been neglected for years or even removed from the game entirely. This is the real issue.
Not Online!!! wrote: R&h very much are supposed to be a core faction.
And yes GW has dropped core factions and units options just in favour of bolter porn or is the thinnening of DE imagined?
There are more fething Lieutenants than certain armies have units as a whole. That is a issue, end of story because these take up unnecessary rules release slots AND are an insult torwards SM players and non SM players because feth buying 3- diffrent loudout lieutenants when a singular fething set could do it. Meanwhile the non SM player get's less and less production capability alocated.
R&H where a Forgeworld faction for ages, and yet rarely saw any real play. I sincerely hope the studio releases something proper for them since they already did a bunch of work with BSF to make stuff, but I won't be holding my breath.
I have to wonder about the actual success of some of different Primaris LT's too.
Like, yeah, Marines are the most popular army and they sell loads, but considering how practically everyone gets a free LT from some battlebox or starter set how well do the individual ones actually do? Especially when compared to a new type of Drukhari character that you're basically guaranteed to have every Drukhari player buying?
Maybe that's why you're starting to see all these different character models coming for different armies now. Like, of course every Sisters player is going to be buying that Palatine so they have some variety in their HQ choices. But who's gonna need another LT since everyone basically got DI, Indomitus and Shadowspear?
Bosskelot wrote: I have to wonder about the actual success of some of different Primaris LT's too.
Like, yeah, Marines are the most popular army and they sell loads, but considering how practically everyone gets a free LT from some battlebox or starter set how well do the individual ones actually do? Especially when compared to a new type of Drukhari character that you're basically guaranteed to have every Drukhari player buying?
Maybe that's why you're starting to see all these different character models coming for different armies now. Like, of course every Sisters player is going to be buying that Palatine so they have some variety in their HQ choices. But who's gonna need another LT since everyone basically got DI, Indomitus and Shadowspear?
I mean by the numbers I think most of them were marketed mostly as "exclusives" for store openings and events and such.
Honestly I feel like a lot of the LTs were made as test sculpts to dial in certain ideas, so they're less taking the place of something else and more a prototype for different units.
I'm not sure I really buy the prototyping idea - if they're good enough for sale why not just include them as one of the poses in the kits that they're experimenting for?
Plus actually producing the moulds and boxes is a significant cost.
So it's not a trivial thing to produce these kits at all, even if the design itself is complete.
ClockworkZion wrote: Honestly I feel like a lot of the LTs were made as test sculpts to dial in certain ideas, so they're less taking the place of something else and more a prototype for different units.
Its cool that you feel that way but we dont' actually have any evidence that that is the case. Besides maybe 1 or 2, all these lieutenants were either event models or were sold as box set incentives, but we don't actually know that GW just had Skippy the Intern Who Wasn't Doing Anything Else spend the time sculpting them instead of sculpting a more useful for the overall game character model.
Again: stormcast don't get 15 variations of the same character sculpt while other AOS factions play with 3rd ed era finecast. Every faction in AOS besides the Fantasy Nostalgia Factions gets new plastic character kits.
From what I understand, yes, it is true. The Lts were repurposed from the designs that the design team made early on for the new Primaris range. However, those designs weren't actually finished or fully rendered. A lot of additional work was required to complete the design, create a functional 3d model that could be used for moulding, and manufacture the moulds. Majority of work was still left to do, since the originals weren't intended for sale.
kirotheavenger wrote: I'm not sure I really buy the prototyping idea - if they're good enough for sale why not just include them as one of the poses in the kits that they're experimenting for?
Plus actually producing the moulds and boxes is a significant cost.
So it's not a trivial thing to produce these kits at all, even if the design itself is complete.
GW seems to be recycling their prototypes a lot. Warhammer Underworlds originally took prototypes of AoS minis for each faction after all.
If they're just producing a model from something that started as essentially concept art, I think that's a little different.
What I mainly intended by that comment was that I didn't believe the Lieutenants were prototypes and therefore minimal effort to put out. As a lot of effort goes into converting them into sprue designs and then boxsets on a store shelf.
kirotheavenger wrote: If they're just producing a model from something that started as essentially concept art, I think that's a little different.
What I mainly intended by that comment was that I didn't believe the Lieutenants were prototypes and therefore minimal effort to put out. As a lot of effort goes into converting them into sprue designs and then boxsets on a store shelf.
I think they were digitally sculpted and printed as prototypes and then those prototypes were made into the various releases we've seen later.
You can REALLY see it in the Indomitus Lt. He's clearly just a Bladeguard Sgt. I think the only Primaris Lt that isn't a named character with a unique loadout is the Phobos Lt.
I'd wager it mostly comes down to a question of how they wanted to do weapon options. Primaris are part of this era of monopose easy build kits and even the multipart kits don't really have much in the way of weapon options. Most of those were patched in later via upgrade sprues.
I get the feeling that the other route considered for Sgt weapons was just to make them unique models packaged alongside the rest of the unit. That's basically what happened with the box set bundles, but instead those sculpts got labeled a Lt and sold as a special character.
LunarSol wrote: You can REALLY see it in the Indomitus Lt. He's clearly just a Bladeguard Sgt. I think the only Primaris Lt that isn't a named character with a unique loadout is the Phobos Lt.
I'd wager it mostly comes down to a question of how they wanted to do weapon options. Primaris are part of this era of monopose easy build kits and even the multipart kits don't really have much in the way of weapon options. Most of those were patched in later via upgrade sprues.
I get the feeling that the other route considered for Sgt weapons was just to make them unique models packaged alongside the rest of the unit. That's basically what happened with the box set bundles, but instead those sculpts got labeled a Lt and sold as a special character.
Yeah, he does feel a lot like part of the unit instead of a separate character release.He doesn't really have the hallmarks of a character model in all honesty.
Isn't it a good thing? the optimal squad size is 5 models, so if someone was lucky enough to get his hands on the box, they have the 3 troopers, the Lt and the chapter master who can easily make a cohorent looking 5 man bladeguard unit.
Karol wrote: Isn't it a good thing? the optimal squad size is 5 models, so if someone was lucky enough to get his hands on the box, they have the 3 troopers, the Lt and the chapter master who can easily make a cohorent looking 5 man bladeguard unit.
It's not really a complaint, just a possible explanation why we keep seeing so many LT models.
Da Boss wrote: There is also nothing wrong with having emotions about your hobby or interests.
But GW obviously will not be doing anything to change how they manage releases, and I think expecting them to change is just gonna lead to disappointment.
GW considers Xenos players second class. Once you accept that it is a lot easier to deal with all of this because you never expect them to give you anything and are never disappointed or frustrated.
But GW doesn't go out and say this. So you're arguing their business model rests on being able to deceive their customer base about it?
Well, they are very good at the deveiving part. I started in 8th and it took me around 2 and a half year to notice that GW doesn't want fix rules or bring balance. Assuming I am half as inteligent as an avarge person, this means a noob my age will get it in a few months to a year. Which oddly is around how long people around here play w40k. Something I notice, when I was writing this sentence.
Karol wrote: Isn't it a good thing? the optimal squad size is 5 models, so if someone was lucky enough to get his hands on the box, they have the 3 troopers, the Lt and the chapter master who can easily make a cohorent looking 5 man bladeguard unit.
It's not really a complaint, just a possible explanation why we keep seeing so many LT models.
Yeah, its a matter of getting back a bit of the kitbash mentality. I come from other games, so it took me a bit to "find" a jump pack captain before someone explained I just pick a model to make into a captain. The same is basically true of the HQs we've seen released, but takes a bit of getting used to again.
Karol wrote: Well, they are very good at the deveiving part. I started in 8th and it took me around 2 and a half year to notice that GW doesn't want fix rules or bring balance. Assuming I am half as inteligent as an avarge person, this means a noob my age will get it in a few months to a year. Which oddly is around how long people around here play w40k. Something I notice, when I was writing this sentence.
I'd disagree a bit there. They do have an interest, but the fixes are to make the game more like how they think it should be played, and not how the internet thinks it should.
That isn't say that GW doesn't screw up, but they are definitely making more efforts to fix the game over 8th and 9th than they ever did in the past.
Karol wrote: Well, they are very good at the deveiving part. I started in 8th and it took me around 2 and a half year to notice that GW doesn't want fix rules or bring balance. Assuming I am half as inteligent as an avarge person, this means a noob my age will get it in a few months to a year. Which oddly is around how long people around here play w40k. Something I notice, when I was writing this sentence.
I'd disagree a bit there. They do have an interest, but the fixes are to make the game more like how they think it should be played, and not how the internet thinks it should.
That isn't say that GW doesn't screw up, but they are definitely making more efforts to fix the game over 8th and 9th than they ever did in the past.
How they think the game should be played isn't "balanced," though.
Karol wrote: Well, they are very good at the deveiving part. I started in 8th and it took me around 2 and a half year to notice that GW doesn't want fix rules or bring balance. Assuming I am half as inteligent as an avarge person, this means a noob my age will get it in a few months to a year. Which oddly is around how long people around here play w40k. Something I notice, when I was writing this sentence.
They have a great sci-fi universe that isn't "overplayed" by other forms of media. Unfortunately, GW knows this and uses it to their advantage, big time.
They are running a bait and switch operation. They release a bunch of models with points costs that make them OP. A few months later, nerf those models back to reality or to oblivion. Next edition, maybe that model doesn't even have rules anymore. GW doesn't care, you already bought the models. The models you bought may be worthless now, but it's ok, they have some new models that are cheap points wise with OP rules (but expensive in real money) you can buy to replace those. Get in as many games as you can with the OP units because in 6 months they'll probably be crap.
I picked up a lot of Tyranid models when 8th started. My army was fun to play at first, then the nerfs came in, changing unit values dramatically and what units you could actually play (example, the rule of 3 being introduced later in 8th). I have never had worse buyers remorse than buying Tyranids for 40k. What a colossal waste of money that was, given GW decides to barely support the faction with a few releases in comparison to what the Space Marines have gotten.
GW's sales tactics may be that they want you to play multiple armies but the way they go about trying to get you there are some of the worst sales tactics I've seen. They are just a terrible company that really doesn't care about their customers. I don't know how they have gotten away with it for so long, but I guess kudos to them for pulling it off. If you can screw your customers over and they just come back and buy more, why would you ever stop?
Da Boss wrote: There is also nothing wrong with having emotions about your hobby or interests.
But GW obviously will not be doing anything to change how they manage releases, and I think expecting them to change is just gonna lead to disappointment.
GW considers Xenos players second class. Once you accept that it is a lot easier to deal with all of this because you never expect them to give you anything and are never disappointed or frustrated.
But GW doesn't go out and say this. So you're arguing their business model rests on being able to deceive their customer base about it?
Oh absolutely. They are selling the fantasy to Marine players that they are going to get to smack the crap out of various cool looking aliens, when in reality the game mostly consists of background inaccurate marine on marine battles.
But it is useful to have the odd Xenos player around to promote the fantasy, and sometimes someone on the design team gets excited about it so they let them do something. So they will update the ranges for those armies every so often, maybe every 6-20 years, and that works to keep Xenos players in the game in enough numbers to sustain the Marine players fantasies. In between they just sell as much stuff as possible to Marine players as their bread and butter.
I think they were trying to build the same model in AoS but I am not sure it really worked? They certainly gave Stormcast the majority of the attention but it is not as bad as in 40K. Pretty sad, one of the cool things about WFB was that it was more balanced in that sense.
Karol wrote: Well, they are very good at the deveiving part. I started in 8th and it took me around 2 and a half year to notice that GW doesn't want fix rules or bring balance. Assuming I am half as inteligent as an avarge person, this means a noob my age will get it in a few months to a year. Which oddly is around how long people around here play w40k. Something I notice, when I was writing this sentence.
I'd disagree a bit there. They do have an interest, but the fixes are to make the game more like how they think it should be played, and not how the internet thinks it should.
That isn't say that GW doesn't screw up, but they are definitely making more efforts to fix the game over 8th and 9th than they ever did in the past.
How they think the game should be played isn't "balanced," though.
They have tried to address balance (0" charges for example) but let's be honest, their first priority has always has, and probably will remain, trying to dial in a thematic game system that lets you do cool stuff on the board.
I'd disagree a bit there. They do have an interest, but the fixes are to make the game more like how they think it should be played, and not how the internet thinks it should.
That isn't say that GW doesn't screw up, but they are definitely making more efforts to fix the game over 8th and 9th than they ever did in the past.
And am not kidding about the decived part, when they wrote the first CA and promised paladins, purifires, to be used again and GK to be made good. I really thought they ment it. I actualy was upset when I saw the changes, and I mean like really upset. Had to double the medicin for 2 weeks to just keep calm.
But I ain't saying that at 13 you are as smart as at 40 with 20+years expiriance in the hobby. I am sure GW does some sort of stuff to older players too, but regarding new young players their policies are just predatory as companies that make mobile games. Sometimes even more, I don't even think that EA would make people pay for a patch download.
I'd disagree a bit there. They do have an interest, but the fixes are to make the game more like how they think it should be played, and not how the internet thinks it should.
That isn't say that GW doesn't screw up, but they are definitely making more efforts to fix the game over 8th and 9th than they ever did in the past.
And am not kidding about the decived part, when they wrote the first CA and promised paladins, purifires, to be used again and GK to be made good. I really thought they ment it. I actualy was upset when I saw the changes, and I mean like really upset. Had to double the medicin for 2 weeks to just keep calm.
But I ain't saying that at 13 you are as smart as at 40 with 20+years expiriance in the hobby. I am sure GW does some sort of stuff to older players too, but regarding new young players their policies are just predatory as companies that make mobile games. Sometimes even more, I don't even think that EA would make people pay for a patch download.
Karol, you also play in one of the most toxic player locations ever. For most players the baby seal clubbers aren't so bad.
I went through being really upset when Orks waited such a long time between the 3e and end of 4e codices.
I complained about it all the time here and on Warseer.
Over time I realised that it was always gonna be like this and now I am a lot more chilled out about it. Though to be fair, I am not really trying to play games any more, because I don't expect them to be fun.
dotcomee wrote: I picked up a lot of Tyranid models when 8th started. My army was fun to play at first, then the nerfs came in, changing unit values dramatically and what units you could actually play (example, the rule of 3 being introduced later in 8th). I have never had worse buyers remorse than buying Tyranids for 40k. What a colossal waste of money that was, given GW decides to barely support the faction with a few releases in comparison to what the Space Marines have gotten.
I think it's less that the Tyranids hit with the force of a warm marshmallow, but that they're a boring army to play. Stuff like Instinctive Behaviour being a positive hindrance, and having the HQs buff only one Type of unit each, breathtakingly dull psychic powers, and models that are frustrating to play with because they seem designed for a Tyranid-themed Barrel of Monkeys game than a tabletop wargame. The annoying thing is that GW has shown interesting ways to play Tyranids from the wargame Doom of the Eldar to the 2nd edition Tyranid Attack scenario to the various incarnations of Without Number. Representing a horde and the effects of a horde as simply a lot of models on the board at the beginning of the game (and then radically less) is not only boring but kind of frustrating. Why bring all those models if you're not going to get to play with them?
Karol wrote: Well, they are very good at the deveiving part. I started in 8th and it took me around 2 and a half year to notice that GW doesn't want fix rules or bring balance. Assuming I am half as inteligent as an avarge person, this means a noob my age will get it in a few months to a year. Which oddly is around how long people around here play w40k. Something I notice, when I was writing this sentence.
I'd disagree a bit there. They do have an interest, but the fixes are to make the game more like how they think it should be played, and not how the internet thinks it should.
That isn't say that GW doesn't screw up, but they are definitely making more efforts to fix the game over 8th and 9th than they ever did in the past.
How they think the game should be played isn't "balanced," though.
They have tried to address balance (0" charges for example) but let's be honest, their first priority has always has, and probably will remain, trying to dial in a thematic game system that lets you do cool stuff on the board.
Well the game doesn't allow that to begin with thanks to the core rules being a mess, like with the outdated IGOUGO system and overall useless morale/LD mechanics. So what exactly IS their actual priority?
Nurglitch wrote: Why bring all those models if you're not going to get to play with them?
Honestly? It looks awesome at deployment and that's like.... one of the most enthralling parts of the game. The bigger issue is just that overwhelming numbers is a really hard mechanic to balance effectively. It can all too often become a binary set of dice rolls.
Nurglitch wrote: Why bring all those models if you're not going to get to play with them?
Honestly? It looks awesome at deployment and that's like.... one of the most enthralling parts of the game. The bigger issue is just that overwhelming numbers is a really hard mechanic to balance effectively. It can all too often become a binary set of dice rolls.
Maybe. I think recycling dead units onto the board is a great idea, personally. Particularly if there's a limit to how they can be returned to the board, so players have to sacrifice time and/or position to maintain material. In Doom of the Eldar there's a timer by that eventually runs out on the Tyranid fleet, and it's a matter for the Eldar to survive until that timer runs out. In 7th edition with returning grunts like Termagants and Gargoyles to the table on a 4+ there was a similar feeling of whether that last SM on the board would surviving the successive waves. I mean, tower defence isn't exactly a black box at this point.
I picked up a lot of Tyranid models when 8th started. My army was fun to play at first, then the nerfs came in, changing unit values dramatically and what units you could actually play (example, the rule of 3 being introduced later in 8th). I have never had worse buyers remorse than buying Tyranids for 40k. What a colossal waste of money that was, given GW decides to barely support the faction with a few releases in comparison to what the Space Marines have gotten.
Ok, here's the thing. Those Tyranids you bought into? That's a mature product line. And it was mature years before you came along.
All that stuff Marines have gotten? The Primaris? Even though it's branded as "Space Marines" it's really just GW launching a completely new product line. The difference is that instead of dropping 70%-80%+ of the (eventual) options into the game upon launch & adding more later, like they would with any other new faction (ex: SoB), they've strung it out over several years.
Don't believe me?
Go count your Tyranid kits (just the GW, skip the FW for now). You've got 23* kits that make 33 units, covering every type of battlefield role. 25 kits counting Start Collecting & Enemy Below wich are just combo boxes of some of the 23 kits)
Now go count the Primaris. Don't forget to count the stuff from box sets that has yet to be released solo & the coming Speeder. Only count kits that make multiple units once. Ignoring the presence of excess Lts, don't those #s look pretty comparable?
The difference is that the Tyranids had all these options years ago, before the Primaris project started. The Primaris are just catching up product wise.
Now could the Tyranids use a few things like new plastic sculpts of stuff still in metal/finecrap? Sure. Better rules? Sure. And maybe there's still a few things left design wise that could be added. But as is the Tyranids aren't hurting for options kit wise. They aren't un-supported.
dotcomee wrote: GW's sales tactics may be that they want you to play multiple armies but the way they go about trying to get you there are some of the worst sales tactics I've seen. They are just a terrible company that really doesn't care about their customers. I don't know how they have gotten away with it for so long, but I guess kudos to them for pulling it off. If you can screw your customers over and they just come back and buy more, why would you ever stop?
You know what's always worked to get me to invest in a new army? Cool models.
After that comes a desire to vary my playstyle.
Now & then it's a specific project.
That having multiple armies insulates me from getting completely screwed over rules wise edition to edition, FAQ to FAQ is just a bonus.
Karol wrote: Well, they are very good at the deveiving part. I started in 8th and it took me around 2 and a half year to notice that GW doesn't want fix rules or bring balance. Assuming I am half as inteligent as an avarge person, this means a noob my age will get it in a few months to a year. Which oddly is around how long people around here play w40k. Something I notice, when I was writing this sentence.
I'd disagree a bit there. They do have an interest, but the fixes are to make the game more like how they think it should be played, and not how the internet thinks it should.
That isn't say that GW doesn't screw up, but they are definitely making more efforts to fix the game over 8th and 9th than they ever did in the past.
How they think the game should be played isn't "balanced," though.
They have tried to address balance (0" charges for example) but let's be honest, their first priority has always has, and probably will remain, trying to dial in a thematic game system that lets you do cool stuff on the board.
Well the game doesn't allow that to begin with thanks to the core rules being a mess, like with the outdated IGOUGO system and overall useless morale/LD mechanics. So what exactly IS their actual priority?
I disagree, but that's a difference of opinions about the effectiveness of the ruleset. I've had plenty of very fun games with the system, and it looks like they are putting some effort into fixing Ld (DG losing fearless in exchange for the same ATSKNF effect Loyalists Marines have). I'm not arguing it's perfect, just that it can be fun.
I disagree, but that's a difference of opinions about the effectiveness of the ruleset. I've had plenty of very fun games with the system, and it looks like they are putting some effort into fixing Ld (DG losing fearless in exchange for the same ATSKNF effect Loyalists Marines have). I'm not arguing it's perfect, just that it can be fun.
The game is fun enough true, but were did you get the idea DG were fearless? Only poxwalkers ignore morale currently, so really what this new rule does is trivialize morale for YET another army.
You know, for all the downing of some GW choices in this thread, it's actually a pretty respectable treatment everyone is giving each other, must be Christmas.
Nurglitch wrote: Why bring all those models if you're not going to get to play with them?
Honestly? It looks awesome at deployment and that's like.... one of the most enthralling parts of the game. The bigger issue is just that overwhelming numbers is a really hard mechanic to balance effectively. It can all too often become a binary set of dice rolls.
Maybe. I think recycling dead units onto the board is a great idea, personally. Particularly if there's a limit to how they can be returned to the board, so players have to sacrifice time and/or position to maintain material. In Doom of the Eldar there's a timer by that eventually runs out on the Tyranid fleet, and it's a matter for the Eldar to survive until that timer runs out. In 7th edition with returning grunts like Termagants and Gargoyles to the table on a 4+ there was a similar feeling of whether that last SM on the board would surviving the successive waves. I mean, tower defence isn't exactly a black box at this point.
It's often hard to get players to differentiate between "spawn more" mechanics and resurrection mechanics when they use the same function. The hard cap of being unable to spawn more while things haven't died always feels a little.... odd. I do think a mechanic involving placing spawn points that units come out of could be really interesting. I definitely think there's ways to do it, but ultimately there's still a desire for an unnecessary number of models to create the "flood" effect.
I picked up a lot of Tyranid models when 8th started. My army was fun to play at first, then the nerfs came in, changing unit values dramatically and what units you could actually play (example, the rule of 3 being introduced later in 8th). I have never had worse buyers remorse than buying Tyranids for 40k. What a colossal waste of money that was, given GW decides to barely support the faction with a few releases in comparison to what the Space Marines have gotten.
Ok, here's the thing. Those Tyranids you bought into? That's a mature product line. And it was mature years before you came along.
All that stuff Marines have gotten? The Primaris? Even though it's branded as "Space Marines" it's really just GW launching a completely new product line. The difference is that instead of dropping 70%-80%+ of the (eventual) options into the game upon launch & adding more later, like they would with any other new faction (ex: SoB), they've strung it out over several years.
Don't believe me?
Go count your Tyranid kits (just the GW, skip the FW for now). You've got 23* kits that make 33 units, covering every type of battlefield role. 25 kits counting Start Collecting & Enemy Below wich are just combo boxes of some of the 23 kits)
Now go count the Primaris. Don't forget to count the stuff from box sets that has yet to be released solo & the coming Speeder. Only count kits that make multiple units once. Ignoring the presence of excess Lts, don't those #s look pretty comparable?
The difference is that the Tyranids had all these options years ago, before the Primaris project started. The Primaris are just catching up product wise.
Now could the Tyranids use a few things like new plastic sculpts of stuff still in metal/finecrap? Sure. Better rules? Sure. And maybe there's still a few things left design wise that could be added. But as is the Tyranids aren't hurting for options kit wise. They aren't un-supported.
dotcomee wrote: GW's sales tactics may be that they want you to play multiple armies but the way they go about trying to get you there are some of the worst sales tactics I've seen. They are just a terrible company that really doesn't care about their customers. I don't know how they have gotten away with it for so long, but I guess kudos to them for pulling it off. If you can screw your customers over and they just come back and buy more, why would you ever stop?
You know what's always worked to get me to invest in a new army? Cool models.
After that comes a desire to vary my playstyle.
Now & then it's a specific project.
That having multiple armies insulates me from getting completely screwed over rules wise edition to edition, FAQ to FAQ is just a bonus.
There is a lot of mentyal gymnastics going on here. With the logic given the Marines were already a " mature product line " They had no need to get primaris from the very start. Many of the kits weren't even old and recently re tooled themselves. There was no need at all for primaris other than selling marine players a whole new army of their same stuff that ate too much McDonalds and took away tracks for floating around. They didn't have to do any of this, they chose to do it and further ignore so many factions at the cost of more marines. Marines had one of the most mature lines out there as far as boxes and kits for everything they could do. Until more and more and more needed to be made.
As well the very fact they are stretching this release year on year on year is a sign.it may never stop but it would be nice if it did so people could, you know, maybe go a few months without a marine release, news of a new marine release or no rules updates for marines. There are other factions in the game after all and some of them are under served and there is no reason for it other than, more marines.
Ok, here's the thing. Those Tyranids you bought into? That's a mature product line. And it was mature years before you came along.
All that stuff Marines have gotten? The Primaris? Even though it's branded as "Space Marines" it's really just GW launching a completely new product line. The difference is that instead of dropping 70%-80%+ of the (eventual) options into the game upon launch & adding more later, like they would with any other new faction (ex: SoB), they've strung it out over several years.
Don't believe me?
Go count your Tyranid kits (just the GW, skip the FW for now). You've got 23* kits that make 33 units, covering every type of battlefield role. 25 kits counting Start Collecting & Enemy Below wich are just combo boxes of some of the 23 kits)
Now go count the Primaris. Don't forget to count the stuff from box sets that has yet to be released solo & the coming Speeder. Only count kits that make multiple units once. Ignoring the presence of excess Lts, don't those #s look pretty comparable?
The difference is that the Tyranids had all these options years ago, before the Primaris project started. The Primaris are just catching up product wise.
Now could the Tyranids use a few things like new plastic sculpts of stuff still in metal/finecrap? Sure. Better rules? Sure. And maybe there's still a few things left design wise that could be added. But as is the Tyranids aren't hurting for options kit wise. They aren't un-supported.
I can go one step further with Tyranids with the return of Genestealer Cults. That opens up a whole new dimension of play options that wasn't really available to the 'nids for a long time. Even more if you shift from Tyranids being the core to GSC which also opens up IG. And before someone goes as says that maybe they don't want to add GSC to their Tyranids, I think it is just as fair to say that many original gansta players don't want to add Primaris to their collection either. And on the curve of usual model releases for space marines, they have had a pretty long dry spell of nothing. Pretty much for the same reason of ccs said for 'nids; they're pretty much complete. Some of the latter marine stuff was already trying to wedge itself in filled niches.
I like Primaris space marines. I wouldn't have started a loyal space marine army if they didn't exist. Straight up, not even true scale marines. My Chaos space marines already filled that area. Especially since I stuck pretty close to the dark mirror version of a lot of things. I am super glad that Loyalist and Traitor marines are really diverging from each other. My Primaris and Black Legion army really aren't that alike and share absolutely no same but spikey units. Sure, they're both marines which means they ain't that different from each as they are from my GSC army. However, I came from historical miniatures games, and let me tell you, Loyal and Traitor are far more different from each other than any historical game I ever played.
***
I want other players to have insane release schedules like my favorites (literally all my 40k/AoS armies have had bumper crops of model kits). Hell, I want some of the more needling 'what about Xenos?' crowd to be cursed by it so much that they can't keep up. A fire hose of model releases. So they can be the ones with an ever-growing backlog of painting that even finishing 7-8 models a week barely keeps up. I want all my collected factions to cool off for a while, so I can finish painting an army or two, put them on a shelf, wait this pandemic out and smirk satisfactory that I have a couple of fully painted GW armies. I hope that the AoS Slaanesh release has as much as it looks like it does, and that is portent to other factions especially in 40k.
Imagine thinking adding GSC to the game is similar to the absolute ridiculous amount of primaris releases. GSC are their own army who happen to be able to ally with Tyranids just like Imperial and Chaos factions can with their books. Primaris were nothing more than adding bloat to what was already the most bloated faction in the game.
It's very noble when people wish other factions got love just so they can stop buying every new release. Oh, the tragedy, how can one live with such an embarrassment of riches ?
Would be nice if the marines chilled out just so other armies could see even one new kit, or filling in lost choices as I doubt we'll see most other forces see even a fraction of these new kits next year or the year after but the marine tide will roll on.
AngryAngel80 wrote: It's very noble when people wish other factions got love just so they can stop buying every new release. Oh, the tragedy, how can one live with such an embarrassment of riches ?
Would be nice if the marines chilled out just so other armies could see even one new kit, or filling in lost choices as I doubt we'll see most other forces see even a fraction of these new kits next year or the year after but the marine tide will roll on.
It hasn't been anywhere close to every new release. I have been diggin' the Lumineth, new Slaves to Darkness (which includes much of the Warcry stuff), Kill Team (which had me get lots of factions Troop choices) and Genestealer Cults. It hasn't just been Primaris, it's been a lot of what GW has been laying down. It it was just Primaris, I'd already be bored as they are super quick and easy to paint.
There's lots and lots of factions, hell lots of active games, that GW has in their portfolio. Even with an increased release schedule if a person is a fan of but just a single one for a single game that has a fair coverage of models (even if they are old, not plastic, etc.), it is going to be rare they're going to see new stuff. They're basically hoping that GW throws a dart at their favorite thing and has the inspiration to come up with something for it. I'm not saying you have to sunk cost, just that there is a lot more brands in the fire than Primaris and most probably take a lot more effort and risk for GW.
That's why I also don't see it as equivalent that space marine releases are really affecting any other faction's model releases. Not to the same level as say a new Blood Bowl team, Necromunda gang or some basically one-off like Kill Team: Rogue Trader or Blackstone Fortress. Clearly GW has been prioritizing creating areas of revenue rather than re-tread existing material. The exception being marines and Chaos Warriors. Which honestly does surprise me a little. I am not saying get rid of those other things. Just that they are also there even if it seems most 40k seem oblivious to them.
Even a poll of DakkaDakka demonstrated that plastic updates wouldn't necessarily get veteran players to update their armies. I don't think it is too much of a leap to think that GW also believes that refreshes might not bring in that many new players compared to something completely new. There may be something about the gravity of 40k that GW believes that they can rest on their laurels with factions that are already functional. They seem to be showing the same thing with many of the older factions in AoS too. With the large exception being their poster faction (and strangely Chaos) they want to quickly prop up as the hip, new thing (well, as much as space marines can be anyways). I also think there is something to the gravity of 40k that prevents it from being anywhere close to as daring as AoS which appears to allow far more creative freedom.
I feel less like Primaris are consuming all the new model kit resources, and more that GW has less of an idea what they want to do with older factions. I have a hard time believing that a refresh of all Aspect Warriors wouldn't make more net profit than the equivalent of say Blackstone Fortress, Kill Team: Rogue Trader or even the Warcry cultists. Yet, those exist and new plastic space elf kits don't. Plenty of fantasy aelf ones though...
It is hard to me to feel an over saturation, as the OP states anyway, as I am not overly invested in any one game or faction. The over saturation for me is that I have been liking a good portion of what GW has put out. Including a number of things I didn't think I would. If things become unbearable, I remember this is my hobby, not my job. I am free to walk away at anytime and also come back at any time. I am not going to worry when the next time the GSC or Lumineth get a new unit. I just enjoy what I have, and if I want more see what there is that does excite. Seems far better than sneering and jeering at what I don't like.
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oh god I can't actually believe this is a take that people have unironically? For real, trash opinion.
