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Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 05:53:43


Post by: drbored


I'm wondering if anyone else has this feeling.

In 4 years we've gotten 4 waves of Space Marines.
8th Edition
Vanguard wave
SM Supplements
9th Edition

Each of these waves is bigger than many other factions with their updates across that same span of time. Thankfully, in that same span of time, we have also gotten...
Updated Death Guard
Updated Necron
Updated Genestealer Cult
Updated Adeptus Mechanicus
Updated Sisters of Battle
Updated Imperial Knights
Updated Chaos Marines
Updated Orks
New Faction Chaos Knights

Not to mention all of the little things in between them, like Howling Banshees and Incubi, a few characters for different factions here and there...

And yet, for every 2 big updates to other factions, we get 1 major wave of Space Marine releases. If this trend continues... well, I just don't see a great future for 40k. I see a lot of time and energy wasted onto more Primaris and a playing field that becomes ever more focused on Space Marines. Little dips in Space Marine power level/meta are quickly corrected because of the massive playerbase of space marine players, while factions that haven't gotten an update since 6th edition or previous are still begging for attention.

Aside from a few updated models, factions like Eldar, Tyranids, Astra Militarum languish, while other factions still need key models brought out of the resin slump, or even out of 3rd edition, like Dark Eldar, Chaos Marines, Tau, and Orks. Getting new Codexes isn't what I'm worried about. GW have been pretty good at pumping out the books (too many books in some cases).

I know a few of those are likely to get updated soon, it's just a matter of time. But, again. Let's say that Eldar and Astra Militarum get major updates... then what? Another big Space Marine wave.

One of the ways you really see the pain is in Kill Team. Every troop unit in the Space Marine Codex has a Kill Team entry, and as more waves of Space Marines come out, the Space Marine side of the Kill Team rules section gets further bloated. While Space Marines have some 30 entries, other factions have 2-5. It kills my motivation to even get back into Kill Team, despite the new starter set and killzone rules.

Another interesting difference is Age of Sigmar. Now, I'm not here to get into a squabble or debate about which system is better, but in terms of variety of releases, looking at Age of Sigmar is like a breath of fresh air. Yes, they had a big issue with an overabundance of Stormcast for a long while, but they've added so many other things, new factions, and have even brought Slaanesh out from the dead (so BoLS can stop writing those "GW is removing Slaanesh because it's not kid friendly" articles, finally). So while in 40k we continue to wait for new Noise Marines and Khorne Berzerkers, AoS has those factions covered in spades.

I don't know. My favorite faction, the Sisters of Battle, were finally brought back in beautiful plastic, and I'm thrilled that they might be getting even more in the future, but the weight of the space marine releases just deflates me of much hype or hope for much else.

Does anyone else feel this way?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 06:10:20


Post by: KingGarland


As a Space Marines player I do agree that they should slow down with them as a) I think the list is complete (aside from a few things) and b) the other factions need the work more. I can't see these happening anytime soon however as the SM are too important to the profit of the company and doing work on the other factions would require both money and risk I am not confident they are willing to risk.

Bringing up AoS however shows that these risks can work out however that game was created out of the failing original Warhammer and as a completely new universe they are not constricted by 20+ years of lore to create new things. Something I can't see them doing with 40k and the Space Marines unless they to were failing.

I do agree with you but what can you do?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 06:10:36


Post by: endlesswaltz123


Unless a new supplement comes along, and bar a very small amount of required multi-part kits and character options, the space marine model line is now complete.

Other than the above, and maybe the odd SC character update and maybe a new general start collecting box, marine releases are done till the end of 2022 at the earliest.

I get the frustration, but this cash cow indirectly supports other less financially lucrative products.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 06:15:51


Post by: drbored


 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Unless a new supplement comes along, and bar a very small amount of required multi-part kits and character options, the space marine model line is now complete.

Other than the above, and maybe the odd SC character update and maybe a new general start collecting box, marine releases are done till the end of 2022 at the earliest.

I get the frustration, but this cash cow indirectly supports other less financially lucrative products.


I understand the cash cow aspect, but I unfortunately can't agree that the Space Marine faction is 'complete'. It'll never be complete. Centurions and all of the new Primaris things are proof of that. Just think, we don't have a melee-dedicated gravis unit. We don't have a primaris aircraft. We don't have a gravis equivalent of any of the typical HQ models, like Chaplain, Apothecary, or Librarian. Those are all things they could easily add, and likely will at some point, to keep the cash cow going.

It's just rough. 40k being the popular game, Space Marines being the obvious selection to make and sell more of. And yes, it is thanks to space marines that we get all of those other AoS factions and even things like Sisters of Battle, but wow is it overwhelming sometimes. I just get exhausted seeing MORE space marines come out. It kills hype for the hobby for me.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 06:16:52


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Without NPCs to beat up Marines lose appeal, though. I know my interest in 40k has continued to dwindle with wave after wave of Marines. It's too much.

Since the onset of 8th how many new kits for marines have we got, verses for everyone else?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 06:31:39


Post by: tneva82


drbored wrote:
I'm wondering if anyone else has this feeling.


Does anyone else feel this way?


Me. Focus has been moving from 40k to aos due to marine oppressive(compare to aos no faction dominates releases as badly) and rules being more and more extreme killy comboing.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 06:54:01


Post by: drbored


tneva82 wrote:
drbored wrote:
I'm wondering if anyone else has this feeling.


Does anyone else feel this way?


Me. Focus has been moving from 40k to aos due to marine oppressive(compare to aos no faction dominates releases as badly) and rules being more and more extreme killy comboing.


I feel this.

I'm just sad that my two favorite factions, Seraphon and Daughters of Khaine, got passed over for new models. Figures!

But, those Soulblight are looking mighty spicy...


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 07:08:43


Post by: Bosskelot


tneva82 wrote:
drbored wrote:
I'm wondering if anyone else has this feeling.


Does anyone else feel this way?


Me. Focus has been moving from 40k to aos due to marine oppressive(compare to aos no faction dominates releases as badly) and rules being more and more extreme killy comboing.


AOS has it's own share of extreme killing combo'ing and absurd lethality unfortunately.

For the actual subject of the thread though:

As long as people keep buying this gak in record numbers, it'll keep happening. The only way it'll change is if the oversaturation gets too much so that every non-Marine player just stops playing which means the Marines have no-one to play, which means they stop buying stuff. Or just the rate of releases becomes too much to keep up with. It's anecdotal, but at my LGS the new Necron models have been selling better than the Marines. That Marine Christmas Battleforce is still on the shelves too. I've seen a few players just straight up saying it's too much to keep up with and how they hadn't even managed to get or finished the stuff from the last release.

I also think the quality of the designs and sculpts does make an appreciable difference. Obviously you'll have whales who will buy 9 of everything anyway, but I think for a lot people some of the recent releases have just felt very bland and uninspired. Like the design studio is just sort of going through the motions (which at this point they probably are).



Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 07:21:13


Post by: Spoletta


We will keep getting random captains and Lts here and there, but we are probably done for a couple of years in terms of big marine waves.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 07:21:34


Post by: Karol


 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Unless a new supplement comes along, and bar a very small amount of required multi-part kits and character options, the space marine model line is now complete.

Other than the above, and maybe the odd SC character update and maybe a new general start collecting box, marine releases are done till the end of 2022 at the earliest.

I get the frustration, but this cash cow indirectly supports other less financially lucrative products.


There is still the whole csm line up to bring in line with the sm rule set.


To be honest I don't know what people would imagine to be an acceptable start to 9th ed. No space marine codex at the start was not going to happen. Extending each marine faction with all the primaris was a given. I guess GW could have not put the other marine factions in to the sm. But three things spoke against it. First doing so let GW sell 2 books instead of one to all sm faction players. Second, leaving them the way GK or CSM are, and not updating them with primaris, would require both wasting space in FAQ or WD to add any unit rules missing from those armies 8th ed books, and make it very unfun to those players, where DA would cost the same, or more, as codex sm units, but be functionaly at -1W.

And three is assets and investments GW has to put in to making sm books. The art is there, as are the models, they don't have to make any new models in some cases, or as Waltz said make an upgrade sprue and a character model. If there were to make an IG army today, they would face the problem of hybrid kits, resin stuff and old box sets. And something like a full revamp of the Primaris, Necron or SoB style, just costs too much, for it can bring. GW knows their sale data, they know what sells the most and what sells the least. If they knew that there is huge money to make durning covid with lets say a full blown Tau reset, we would see one for sure.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 07:42:12


Post by: endlesswaltz123


drbored wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
drbored wrote:
I'm wondering if anyone else has this feeling.


Does anyone else feel this way?


Me. Focus has been moving from 40k to aos due to marine oppressive(compare to aos no faction dominates releases as badly) and rules being more and more extreme killy comboing.


I feel this.

I'm just sad that my two favorite factions, Seraphon and Daughters of Khaine, got passed over for new models. Figures!

But, those Soulblight are looking mighty spicy...


Daughters of khaine are on a whole, fairly new sculpts though, unless you wanted a brand new unit.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 07:43:39


Post by: ccs


No, I don't share you're SM burnout with the hobby.
Because my hobby is playing the games, not waiting in anticipation to buy more stuff. Either they release stuff I want, or they don't. Either way I've got games to play, a small backlog to assemble, and an endless variety to get painted.....



drbored wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
drbored wrote:
I'm wondering if anyone else has this feeling.


Does anyone else feel this way?


Me. Focus has been moving from 40k to aos due to marine oppressive(compare to aos no faction dominates releases as badly) and rules being more and more extreme killy comboing.


I feel this.

I'm just sad that my two favorite factions, Seraphon and Daughters of Khaine, got passed over for new models. Figures!


So the Ironscale, the Blade Coven, & the Khainite Shadowstalkers + Endless Spells don't count?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 07:50:41


Post by: AngryAngel80


It's just the way it is I regret to say. People say and somehow think this all will lead to an end of space marine releases for a bit, I somehow highly doubt that. We are just rounding the end of the marine models we know about. However when a release pace is burning out not only those who aren't getting anything but also the players they are selling to, that is a problem. Like for me, I have a couple marine forces and all I want to pick up is a box of the heavy ints so I can make my kill team with them, and that's only because I have to or have wasted models thanks to the rule changes. There isn't any excitement in it for me.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 07:54:54


Post by: Karol


ccs wrote:
No, I don't share you're SM burnout with the hobby.
Because my hobby is playing the games, not waiting in anticipation to buy more stuff. Either they release stuff I want, or they don't. Either way I've got games to play, a small backlog to assemble, and an endless variety to get painted.....



I could sit for a decade thinking, and never write it as clear and simple as this.



Without NPCs to beat up Marines lose appeal, though. I know my interest in 40k has continued to dwindle with wave after wave of Marines. It's too much.


The different marines list are not clones of each other though. Playing vs DA,SW, BA and some of the codex chapters makes you play vs much different lists, then if lets say you faced off against a custodes or an ork army. The different rule set and good faction marine units, are really well done in 9th ed. They were well done under the 2.0 codex in 8th too, RG lists were different from IH lists etc. And if one ignores FW dreads, then the flexibility of theme among marine armies was a nice thing for the game.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 08:11:34


Post by: Da Boss


Like ccs, it doesn't bother me. It used to, but I've moved on. What GW is currently releasing has no particular hold on my mood. I just want to work on the stuff I think is cool from whatever manufacturer. I don't mind if they release nothing but space marines for the next two years, because I haven't assembled or painted all my stuff for all the other factions and I'm not very invested in 40K as a game product.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 09:13:58


Post by: stroller


OK.. I get losing interest in space marines...

and I get "why can't *I* have a new shiny?"

but.... just PLAY why don't you? OH! THAT pandemic....

GW has more models on sale than I will ever buy (and I have a lot) even ignoring marines completely....


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 09:46:52


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


I get release fatigue. In terms of actual tabletop play, though, I certainly do not see Marine dominance locally. We just had a 20 man tourney with only 3 Space Marine lists. Top four placings were Daemons, Death Guard with Mortarian, Sisters and Orks.

Now, local tourney results are just that, but hey.



Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 09:48:00


Post by: wuestenfux


Well, I can understand our frustration.
This basically killed my interest in SM. I find it more challenging to beat them.
But this is getting harder and harder with all the new shiny toys and units they got recently.
Nevertheless, I can understand GW to promote SM to the limit as it's GW's money making machine.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 10:07:27


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


The release schedule isn't really doing it, but the mechanics are for me.

Nothing feels really effective or satisfying to use, particularly against Marines and marine-like armies where everything just kind of sponges off units and a heavy artillery gun kills like half a guy.

I played a game of 5th edition the other day, and it was astonishing how much better it felt. Bringing the right firepower onto the right target was rewarded with immediate and substantial effect in a way it just isn't now, where a mid-strength, AP-2, D2/3 many shot statline is universally the most effective option and tank guns feel anemic.

And despite the vastly greater ability to actually have an effect with weapons our armies didn't disintegrate nearly as fast. Even though my AP3 blast templates basically erased a squad with each hit and my vanquisher squadron was punching holes in his tanks, the fact that most units had to chose to move or fire at full effect, and fire or charge, made the game both a lot less lethal and a feel a lot more maneuver focused [My friend might disagree, since I immobilized or blew up both his Rhinos and his Land Raider in the opening salvo of my guns]


If I can get my friends to do so, I might be angling towards a reversion to 5th ed. Even if it has it's own problems [wound allocation *coughcough*], it still feels better than 9th.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 10:24:52


Post by: kirotheavenger


 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The release schedule isn't really doing it, but the mechanics are for me.

Nothing feels really effective or satisfying to use, particularly against Marines and marine-like armies where everything just kind of sponges off units and a heavy artillery gun kills like half a guy.

I played a game of 5th edition the other day, and it was astonishing how much better it felt. Bringing the right firepower onto the right target was rewarded with immediate and substantial effect in a way it just isn't now, where a mid-strength, AP-2, D2/3 many shot statline is universally the most effective option and tank guns feel anemic.

And despite the vastly greater ability to actually have an effect with weapons our armies didn't disintegrate nearly as fast. Even though my AP3 blast templates basically erased a squad with each hit and my vanquisher squadron was punching holes in his tanks, the fact that most units had to chose to move or fire at full effect, and fire or charge, made the game both a lot less lethal and a feel a lot more maneuver focused [My friend might disagree, since I immobilized or blew up both his Rhinos and his Land Raider in the opening salvo of my guns]


If I can get my friends to do so, I might be angling towards a reversion to 5th ed. Even if it has it's own problems [wound allocation *coughcough*], it still feels better than 9th.

I totally agree with this take.

Like others have said, releases don't actually bother me much. But the mechanics do.
9th edition has at least toned back some of what I disliked with 8th, but all the core mechanics I hate are still there.
I doubt I'll have any luck getting Oldhammer going, so I'm moving to other games instead. Legion seems to be building traction near me.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 10:27:32


Post by: AngryAngel80


I can appreciate that feeling of something being off with the current edition. Though I'll need see how it goes or what the inevitable 10th will be like in like a year when it happens.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 10:29:22


Post by: Ordana


 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The release schedule isn't really doing it, but the mechanics are for me.

Nothing feels really effective or satisfying to use, particularly against Marines and marine-like armies where everything just kind of sponges off units and a heavy artillery gun kills like half a guy.

I played a game of 5th edition the other day, and it was astonishing how much better it felt. Bringing the right firepower onto the right target was rewarded with immediate and substantial effect in a way it just isn't now, where a mid-strength, AP-2, D2/3 many shot statline is universally the most effective option and tank guns feel anemic.

And despite the vastly greater ability to actually have an effect with weapons our armies didn't disintegrate nearly as fast. Even though my AP3 blast templates basically erased a squad with each hit and my vanquisher squadron was punching holes in his tanks, the fact that most units had to chose to move or fire at full effect, and fire or charge, made the game both a lot less lethal and a feel a lot more maneuver focused [My friend might disagree, since I immobilized or blew up both his Rhinos and his Land Raider in the opening salvo of my guns]


If I can get my friends to do so, I might be angling towards a reversion to 5th ed. Even if it has it's own problems [wound allocation *coughcough*], it still feels better than 9th.
Hate to break it to you but 5th edition was the edition of the Leafblower no? That was about lots of mid strength shooting.
And I seem to remember do very well in the tournament scene with the 5th edition GK codex spamming dakkadreads with Psybolt ammo. Again the epitome of lots of mid strength shots.

Not saying 5th wasn't a great edition but lets not pretend it was all that different in weapon use.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 10:37:16


Post by: kirotheavenger


 Ordana wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The release schedule isn't really doing it, but the mechanics are for me.

Nothing feels really effective or satisfying to use, particularly against Marines and marine-like armies where everything just kind of sponges off units and a heavy artillery gun kills like half a guy.

I played a game of 5th edition the other day, and it was astonishing how much better it felt. Bringing the right firepower onto the right target was rewarded with immediate and substantial effect in a way it just isn't now, where a mid-strength, AP-2, D2/3 many shot statline is universally the most effective option and tank guns feel anemic.

And despite the vastly greater ability to actually have an effect with weapons our armies didn't disintegrate nearly as fast. Even though my AP3 blast templates basically erased a squad with each hit and my vanquisher squadron was punching holes in his tanks, the fact that most units had to chose to move or fire at full effect, and fire or charge, made the game both a lot less lethal and a feel a lot more maneuver focused [My friend might disagree, since I immobilized or blew up both his Rhinos and his Land Raider in the opening salvo of my guns]


If I can get my friends to do so, I might be angling towards a reversion to 5th ed. Even if it has it's own problems [wound allocation *coughcough*], it still feels better than 9th.
Hate to break it to you but 5th edition was the edition of the Leafblower no? That was about lots of mid strength shooting.
And I seem to remember do very well in the tournament scene with the 5th edition GK codex spamming dakkadreads with Psybolt ammo. Again the epitome of lots of mid strength shots.

Not saying 5th wasn't a great edition but lets not pretend it was all that different in weapon use.

iirc 6/7th was more about that sort of thing due to hullpoints and such.
Psyifleman Dreads were S8 which is what made them so powerful, autocannons with the punching power of krak missiles.

Although you're absolutely right in principle. 5th edition was far from perfect.
I think the reason it's considered the "best" by a lot of people is that it's the last of 'classic 40k' before 6th edition gak set in. All the crazy stuff like Invisibility and Destroyer and Formations either didn't exist, or only existed in Apocalypse.
I'm sure 8/9th is a ruleset that people can enjoy, it's just not the 40k I (and many others) fell in love with.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 10:43:29


Post by: A.T.


drbored wrote:
I'm wondering if anyone else has this feeling.
In 4 years we've gotten 4 waves of Space Marines
More than 4 waves, but then I don't really differentiate between chaos marines and loyalist marines these days. Particularly with what happened to forgeworld.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 11:10:36


Post by: kodos


Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
If I can get my friends to do so, I might be angling towards a reversion to 5th ed. Even if it has it's own problems [wound allocation *coughcough*], it still feels better than 9th.

wound allocation can be solved by adding weapon groups in addition to wound groups (so that fire more weapons cannot result in less casulties)
as in each different weapon is its own group that need to be allocated instead of all weapons of the unit

Ordana wrote:Hate to break it to you but 5th edition was the edition of the Leafblower no? That was about lots of mid strength shooting.
And I seem to remember do very well in the tournament scene with the 5th edition GK codex spamming dakkadreads with Psybolt ammo. Again the epitome of lots of mid strength shots.
Not saying 5th wasn't a great edition but lets not pretend it was all that different in weapon use.

Leafblower was a US Meta thing, in EU tournaments it never came up on top or being an issue in general
(I think mainly because of different scenarios or victory condition as tabling alone was not a victory)

main problem of 5th, same as with every other Edi, came up as GW changed their Codex design mid Edition


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 11:10:59


Post by: vipoid


I could be mistaken, but didn't Psybolt dreads only really become an issue in 6th?

When Hull Points were introduced (and so suddenly a few glances could auto-kill a vehicle).


As to the OP's question, I wouldn't care about GW vomiting out Marines if they'd at least have the decency to fix core issues with other factions *first*.

For example, much of the Eldar range is old enough to drink, yet instead GW focuses on giving a faction that already consists of new, plastic models an entire second line of new, plastic models.

For my part, give Dark Eldar a nice HQ selection and they're welcome to spend the next decade splurging out Marines like there's no tomorrow.

But no, instead we get 400 Primaris Lieutenants and 0 new HQs for Dark Eldar, in spite of the fact that Marines already have more HQs than DE has units, whilst Dark Eldar have lost 2/3 of their HQ section and gained 0 new units in over a decade.

Hell, I'd even be happy for Dark Eldar to receive a pile of new HQ entries/wargear with 0 corresponding models. I don't care, I'll convert my own. This way, I'd be happy and GW wouldn't need to reroute even an ounce of plastic earmarked for Space Marines. But no, even that is too much to ask - because GW insists on forcing their asinine 'no model, no rules' policy, even for factions they refuse to make new models for.

And yes, I'm aware that this is by no means the first time I've complained about the deficit of DE HQs (and releases in general). I've harped on this before. Tell you what, I'll stop complaining when GW get off their arse and actually fix the problem.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 11:13:30


Post by: Da Boss


Yeah, Chaos Marines are also just more Marines.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 11:21:30


Post by: Dai


Well if we look to Aos there were have been three main waves of Stormcast before they started properly focusing on other factions (with the odd SC model cropping up). Fingers crossed this is the same for 40k. There is a little bit of design space left for marines if you ignore oldmarines I guess but it can wait!

That said I would probably like to see EC and WE, it just slightly bothers me they have done two of the specific God Legions and not the others!


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 11:26:25


Post by: posermcbogus


Can we really call it "waves" when this has been going on for in excess of like 6 years now?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 11:27:54


Post by: kirotheavenger


I think AoS shows us what 40k would be like if Space Marines weren't so popular.
It very much seemed like Stormcast were set up to be Fantasy Space Marines. The approach in lore, models, and advertising very closely followed what GW had been doing with Space Marines. Their release wave matched Primaris very closely.

But Stormcast failed to capture the audience in the way GW perhaps hoped, and so they have diversified their releases.

It's actually in GW's interest for every player to play the same faction. Because that way every kit GW puts out to that faction sells to everyone.
Why spend design resources making a Dark Eldar sculpt and sell to 5% of the playerbase when you can spend less resources (due to commonality of sculpts) and sell to 50% of the playerbase?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 11:36:26


Post by: Aenar


I agree with OP but I also think (or maybe hope) that it's temporary and once most of the primaris waves have come out, xenos, chaos and other imperial armies will have time under the spotlight.
Probably just wishful thinking, though...


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 12:23:57


Post by: the_scotsman


Karol wrote:
 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Unless a new supplement comes along, and bar a very small amount of required multi-part kits and character options, the space marine model line is now complete.

Other than the above, and maybe the odd SC character update and maybe a new general start collecting box, marine releases are done till the end of 2022 at the earliest.

I get the frustration, but this cash cow indirectly supports other less financially lucrative products.


There is still the whole csm line up to bring in line with the sm rule set.


To be honest I don't know what people would imagine to be an acceptable start to 9th ed. No space marine codex at the start was not going to happen. Extending each marine faction with all the primaris was a given.


What they could have done is what they almost did: Release decent, usable holdover rules for the minor marine factions, along with their chapter trait and 1 relic 1 strat 1 trait etc with full supplements to come later.

If the launch to 9th ed had been something like:

-Space Marines
(Holdover rules to make DW SW BA DA GK W2 base, update weapons, etc, with basic chapter tactics and support in the space marine book)
-Necrons
-Chaos space marines
(Holdover rules to make Tsons+DG W2 base, update weapons etc with basic legion tactics and support in the CSM book)
-Dark Eldar
-Genestealer Cults
-Tau
-Guard
-Eldar

^We could be where we are right now, but all the currently underperforming factions due to the nature of the release of 9th could already be updated and functional again. THEN you can make sure that space wolves have their 12 unique relics and their special psychic discipline and their crusade rules and whatever in addition to their basic chapter tactic, superdoctrine, new weapon stats and unit rules.

Were dark angels really so left out in the cold with their perma-transhumaned terminators that they desperately needed a codex before 40% WR imperial guard or Tau who just have no way to meaningfully participate in 9th?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 13:46:38


Post by: Jidmah


 vipoid wrote:
I could be mistaken, but didn't Psybolt dreads only really become an issue in 6th?

When Hull Points were introduced (and so suddenly a few glances could auto-kill a vehicle).

Psyflemen were already in issue in 5th. Most relevant vehicles were AV12 or less, so a riflement dread with two autocannons and psybolt ammunition had 4 S8 shots that would pen them on a 5+.
GK just came out near the end of 5th, so the issue didn't exist for most of the edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kodos wrote:
Leafblower was a US Meta thing, in EU tournaments it never came up on top or being an issue in general
(I think mainly because of different scenarios or victory condition as tabling alone was not a victory)

main problem of 5th, same as with every other Edi, came up as GW changed their Codex design mid Edition


I've played against plenty of leafblower lists in 5th, and it was definitely causing problems. Mind you, not the 2500 point variant with daemon hunters and psykers, but there were chimera gunboats, manticores and hydras everywhere.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 14:01:04


Post by: Cronch


Dai wrote:
Well if we look to Aos there were have been three main waves of Stormcast before they started properly focusing on other factions (with the odd SC model cropping up). Fingers crossed this is the same for 40k. There is a little bit of design space left for marines if you ignore oldmarines I guess but it can wait!

That said I would probably like to see EC and WE, it just slightly bothers me they have done two of the specific God Legions and not the others!

Even right after launch, when SCE were getting a lot of attention, they still kept releasing battletomes in between for everyone else with new models. Sure, you got the Extremis book (which was folded into main SCE battletome soon after along with Vanguards), but you also got the fyrelslayers, ironjawz, beastriders etc. releasing alongside.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 15:55:59


Post by: BlackoCatto


Space Marines get the equal appreciation cake. Just how it is.

Dont forget my favorite "Wait for a codex" in which of you pick Mordians are a regiment, in order to get their main trait beyond the leadership buff when bases are touching, you have to spend a cp to get their 5+ Overwatch.... of which they can only do once in the charge phase.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 15:57:15


Post by: PenitentJake


I knew when 9th was announced, it would lead to a wave of pure marine spam- a new edition always does, which is why I hate the practice of "Edition Reset." I'd rather play the worst edition of 40k forever than have to start all over again.

But we are now in the place I've been waiting for- when the immediate glut of Marines Marines Marines is finally slowing down.

The key to figuring out how well GW is going to address other armies will be the next 6-8 months. If we get news within that window that another faction will receive the Necron/ Marine treatment, we can breathe and be hopeful again. If not, we can complain about it on the Internet.

Early signs are not good; the DE need a lot, and the previews so far have indicated that while we're getting some stuff, it doesn't come close to going far enough. I'm an eternal optimist, so I maintain hope, but if Lelith is the only new model, it's bad news for everyone who isn't a marine player, because it means that whenever your turn comes, you're as likely to be underwhelmed as DE players.

If we get another unit or two in addition to Lelith and the dex is good, it's great news for everyone, because it would mean that even when all signs point to an underwhelming release, we still have the potential to be pleasantly surprised.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 16:04:10


Post by: Karol


the_scotsman 796396 11062747 wrote:


Were dark angels really so left out in the cold with their perma-transhumaned terminators that they desperately needed a codex before 40% WR imperial guard or Tau who just have no way to meaningfully participate in 9th?

how are the codex that the different marines faction, no idea why you are persistent with calling them minor or subfactions, got this and last year different from an index? they only included the chapter specific rules(like index books did), and their specific special characters and units.
We didn't get the csm book update, but who knows what codex we should be on, if it was not for covid. We just got past DG, and definitly the DE are late, but if we remember what was told to us last year, DG should have been a december codex. Which means we could have easily be on a +1 or even a +2 codex, if it wasn't for the covid/brexit thing. And as much as GW loves its customers, they are not going to put out a book, they can't deliver to people around the world, or the models that come with it. We were shown that already, when the whole AoS tree faction thing happened. And a print factory going AWOL in China is nothing compared to covid.

But yeah GW could have done many things. They could put up the initial books, and then say something like, it is covid in the mean time this is our FREE app use it for all the other factions, some rules/stats were updated there. They could do it. But so could apple keep the same chargers for each new Iphone.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 16:20:36


Post by: the_scotsman


Karol wrote:
the_scotsman 796396 11062747 wrote:


Were dark angels really so left out in the cold with their perma-transhumaned terminators that they desperately needed a codex before 40% WR imperial guard or Tau who just have no way to meaningfully participate in 9th?

how are the codex that the different marines faction, no idea why you are persistent with calling them minor or subfactions, got this and last year different from an index? they only included the chapter specific rules(like index books did), and their specific special characters and units.
We didn't get the csm book update, but who knows what codex we should be on, if it was not for covid. We just got past DG, and definitly the DE are late, but if we remember what was told to us last year, DG should have been a december codex. Which means we could have easily be on a +1 or even a +2 codex, if it wasn't for the covid/brexit thing. And as much as GW loves its customers, they are not going to put out a book, they can't deliver to people around the world, or the models that come with it. We were shown that already, when the whole AoS tree faction thing happened. And a print factory going AWOL in China is nothing compared to covid.

But yeah GW could have done many things. They could put up the initial books, and then say something like, it is covid in the mean time this is our FREE app use it for all the other factions, some rules/stats were updated there. They could do it. But so could apple keep the same chargers for each new Iphone.


My point was mostly that the various astartes indexes that they did release, not theoretically could have released, did release for free, they could have kept those in place easily for months without needing to eat up codex release slots with 4 additional astartes codexes almost back-to-back-to-back.

Even assuming the same delay happened - dropping the codex release schedule from 2 per month to 1 per month as of last month - they could have gotten through every single faction that actually needs updates for 9th. Replace Deathwatch, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Dark Angels with Guard Tau Eldar and GSC, and you'd have been able to have all the worst factions currently in the game with new books redesigned to allow them to function properly in 9th.

The majority - the actual majority, not the made up majority claimed by people who like to pretend everyone plays marines even when their playrate numbers in the only data we have capped out below 50% even when they were absolutely competitively dominant - of 40k players are still sitting around waiting for rules actually designed for 9th, and that was a choice GW made when they released the codexes for the various marine factions immediately instead of letting them just use the index datasheets they'd already released.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 16:34:52


Post by: Karol


That makes no sense, they make a lot more money by selling marines and marine books then updating any of the xeno or imperial factions. If it was not the case, then after an edition or two of promotions, marines would be treated like stormcast eternals. So yeah if it makes GW money and costs less to make then a non marine codex, GW making mulitple marine books back to back makes sense.
Plus GW doesn't like doing stuff for free. And as I said, the books BA/DA/SW/DW got are index books in everything, but name. And it was only done to force their players to buy two books.

And the idea that GW are somehow stupid, and treat a minority of players with extra focus and care seems to be strange to me. GW knows their sells numbers, and how old the rules are doesn't seem to bother GW one bit.


As the not updating old rules goes. In 8th they made the GK book for something that was not 8th ed, maybe they would have worked in 3ed, Yet all GK players have to play an army with rules and more important point costs designed that way. CSM are like that too, and it does not seem to bother GW one bit. Now one could of course expect better treatment, and I did through out most of 8th ed, up until it was explained to me that GW does not that way. And if GW doesn't work that way, then expecting them to do, is just getting angry or upset for nothing.



Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 16:45:26


Post by: the_scotsman


Karol wrote:
That makes no sense, they make a lot more money by selling marines and marine books then updating any of the xeno or imperial factions. If it was not the case, then after an edition or two of promotions, marines would be treated like stormcast eternals. So yeah if it makes GW money and costs less to make then a non marine codex, GW making mulitple marine books back to back makes sense.
Plus GW doesn't like doing stuff for free. And as I said, the books BA/DA/SW/DW got are index books in everything, but name. And it was only done to force their players to buy two books.

And the idea that GW are somehow stupid, and treat a minority of players with extra focus and care seems to be strange to me. GW knows their sells numbers, and how old the rules are doesn't seem to bother GW one bit.


As the not updating old rules goes. In 8th they made the GK book for something that was not 8th ed, maybe they would have worked in 3ed, Yet all GK players have to play an army with rules and more important point costs designed that way. CSM are like that too, and it does not seem to bother GW one bit. Now one could of course expect better treatment, and I did through out most of 8th ed, up until it was explained to me that GW does not that way. And if GW doesn't work that way, then expecting them to do, is just getting angry or upset for nothing.



I am not under the impression that GW did not release the first few codexes of 9th with an eye towards maximising the amount of profit they could generate.

You asked "To be honest I don't know what people would imagine to be an acceptable start to 9th ed."

And I answered. A launch with the first few codexes actually providing a large number of factions with the rules they need to actually participate in the game, would have been an acceptable launch to me.

A launch where we are almost a year in now and the only factions with codexes are loyalist marines (not even all of them lol), Death Guard and Necrons is to me, at least not the best situation we could be in from a game health standpoint.

Obviously only a very tiny minority of players play Grey Knights. It would probably be maximally profitable for GW to not bother giving them a codex or any kind of holdover rules for months and months and months. From a game standpoint, that's idiotic - I don't think anyone could play a game of GK or CSM right now against loyalist marines and come away thinking "hey yeah, this is a good functional game that works and makes sense". 9th ed has basically had a "Pardon Our Mess While We Remodel" sign on it for 6+ months now, and it really obviously shows among the community. The amount of people going "welp, I'm playing old editions" or "welp, I'm making my own edition" have absolutely EXPLODED among every community I'm a part of - and its not because 9th is technically worse than 8th, it's because it seems incomplete and like a public beta you have to pay for.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 16:50:27


Post by: Tycho


PenitentJake wrote:
I knew when 9th was announced, it would lead to a wave of pure marine spam- a new edition always does, which is why I hate the practice of "Edition Reset." I'd rather play the worst edition of 40k forever than have to start all over again.

But we are now in the place I've been waiting for- when the immediate glut of Marines Marines Marines is finally slowing down.

The key to figuring out how well GW is going to address other armies will be the next 6-8 months. If we get news within that window that another faction will receive the Necron/ Marine treatment, we can breathe and be hopeful again. If not, we can complain about it on the Internet.

Early signs are not good; the DE need a lot, and the previews so far have indicated that while we're getting some stuff, it doesn't come close to going far enough. I'm an eternal optimist, so I maintain hope, but if Lelith is the only new model, it's bad news for everyone who isn't a marine player, because it means that whenever your turn comes, you're as likely to be underwhelmed as DE players.

If we get another unit or two in addition to Lelith and the dex is good, it's great news for everyone, because it would mean that even when all signs point to an underwhelming release, we still have the potential to be pleasantly surprised.


The thing is, it's NEVER been like this. Marines are always first (or one of the first) to get a new dex, but they don't ALWAYS get a massive wave released up front. Some editions, the "marine wave" did not come until later, and in others it was spread across the edition in the form of several smaller releases over time. The difference now is that it didn't start with 9th. It began in 8th and has only built momentum since. People use to deny this was a thing, but even the white knights have stopped trying to defend it, because I think most of the community realizes that it's just gotten silly at this point. Your DE example encapsulates this perfectly imo, and it's far from the only example.

It's great that some like CCS don't feel affected by it, but my group has a lot of players with armies that have been plunged pretty deeply into the type of disinvestment cycle we see DE going through, and I can't blame them for not being enthusiastic. I'm hoping we have everything pretty much out of the way at this point and will now see a steady stream of releases for other armies for a while before we go back to loyalist marines. That said, are all of their supplements out? Don't we still need one or two for that to be complete? Eh, at any rate, I'm hoping they're mostly done, and it will be everyone else's turn soon.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 16:56:52


Post by: Sunny Side Up


No. All Marine supplements are out (assuming they don't invent new ones).


The only (non-spikey) Marines left would be Grey Knights, who have their own Codex.


Until then, Marines should be mostly done until the 9.5, half-way-edition Shadowspear-style-box.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 17:03:13


Post by: Karol


I am not under the impression that GW did not release the first few codexes of 9th with an eye towards maximising the amount of profit they could generate.

they made every BA/DA/DW/SW player buy 2 books instead of 1, on top of that they made it shortly after all those players bought their PA books, which were being invalidated by the not-codex books. The only way to maximize it even further would have been, if they also released the CA book at the same time with updated points costs and rules for all armies. Including the ones with 9th ed books.


And I answered. A launch with the first few codexes actually providing a large number of factions with the rules they need to actually participate in the game, would have been an acceptable launch to me.

A launch where we are almost a year in now and the only factions with codexes are loyalist marines (not even all of them lol), Death Guard and Necrons is to me, at least not the best situation we could be in from a game health standpoint.

If your main money source is marine players, and you have data how much non marine stuff generates how much sales in each editions, you know how many releases like Necron, SoB or Admecha GW thinks they need to do per year or per edition for their sells to work. I mean they are making more and more money each year. At least that is how it was through out all 8th ed, so something is working, and it is not like AoS is outselling w40k.


Obviously only a very tiny minority of players play Grey Knights. It would probably be maximally profitable for GW to not bother giving them a codex or any kind of holdover rules for months and months and months. From a game standpoint, that's idiotic

Well that is true. But from what I understand the founder of GW, and its owner, told multiple times. That the GW is, contrary to its name which kind of a did confuse me for a long time, not a game making company. They are a model selling company. Of course GW should have never made any codex bad, on purpose or not. Of course they should not make people playing any faction feel as if they are left out. But they clearly do that, can afford it, while making good money.

Now if marines, for what ever reason stopped making good money for GW, things would become a lot different. I did mention AoS and stormcast, they were clearly suppose to be the marines of AoS. But AoS players didn't want marines, so even with long time support GW kind of a let them go, and now supports all new factions in more or less the same degree. And it seems to work for people playing AoS, or at least they claim it so.


The amount of people going "welp, I'm playing old editions" or "welp, I'm making my own edition" have absolutely EXPLODED among every community I'm a part of - and its not because 9th is technically worse than 8th, it's because it seems incomplete and like a public beta you have to pay for.

My dudes are one of the bottom tier armies right now. Unupdate and effectivly marines double minus rules wise. And I still can't get my head around the idea how someone could consider 8th, better in anyway then 9th. Maybe only if the army they played was good in 8th and now is bad, like it is for tau. But aside of that, it just doesn't make sense to me. Marines have multiple different armies to play with, with different builds, sometimes with more build then one per codex. Which in 8th only eldar could do. There is ton of valid options for armies, and marines, which are fun to play, aren't even the best armies in the edition. Demons, harlequins or Custodes do just as good, or even better. Ton of armies sit on, or close, to the 50/50 win rate stats. That is great. Comparing 8th to that is just odd. 11 months of non stop castellan list domination, making vehicles that can't fly and a ton of whole armies practicaly invalid to play. 9th has its bad armies, I happen to play one of them, but it doesn't come even close to how bad 8th was.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 17:22:59


Post by: ccs


To be fair, I was always going to buy 2 SM books. 3 actually as I have SW, DA, & Generic marines. All GW did was inconvenience me in how exactly I use those books.
Now instead of opening my SW codex I have to open both it & the general SM codex.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 17:31:45


Post by: the_scotsman


Probably a combination of, many people aren't actually playing 9th at the moment and the mechanics - regardless of whether or not they may be sufficiently balanced with respect to who wins and who loses - feel strange, disjointed and incomplete.

Moving overwatch from something you always got to something that costs 1cp and can only be done once per turn, Adding a whole "core" mechanic but then only adding it to marine armies, updating tons of weapons across the whole of the game including just straight tripling the average damage a multimelta does while not adjusting costs much or at all, leaving a couple minor factions and one really major faction with 1W MEQ infantry so that they basically can't ever hope to compete with the new 2W loyalists, the closest thing I can remember to this particular gamestate is the beginning of 6th edition, when GW introduced Flyers as a new class of unit.

Flyers could only be hit on a 6 except by anti-aircraft weaponry, and when GW launched flyers they did so by giving marines (obviously) a bunch of new flyer kits, and they retroactively updated several other existing flyers (Necron Scythes, IG Valkyries, and I think Dark Eldar had the Voidraven already as well). But a whole bunch of armies just...didn't have flyers, and didn't have any anti-air weapons, at all, period. The only thing that you could do, which technically now every faction had access to which was another new thing in 6th, was to take Aegis Defense Lines and arm them with the quad anti-air autocannon.

That was the solution that people were told to use if you played, for example, Tyranids. "Just take an Aegis line in your tyranid army."

That leads to a game state where you're paying for a beta version of the game. It's like if a brand new fighting game came out, and one of the characters had a move that made their model snap into a T-pose for a couple seconds, and another character could clip through the floor, and the developer tried to pretend all those mechanics were intended parts of the game you're just supposed to play around.

6th eventually got to a place where everybody had flyers and everyone had ways to deal with the new mechanics and most people had codexes, but then boom, the edition was just over, destined to be the one everyone just thinks back and goes "oh yeah.....6th....6th existed, and I vaguely remember not liking it much, but I don't remember why..."


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 17:58:44


Post by: BlackoCatto


People are looking further, to 5the I believe.

Honestly as well, Games Workshop is a game company trying its hardest to say it is a model company.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 17:59:46


Post by: PaddyMick


@OP
Don't lose heart mate. You don't have to rely on what GW releases. This hobby can be whatever you want to make it. I bet you could start a new, non-marine army project and make it unique and interesting, even just using the official models available, nevermind the huge amount of alternatives.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 19:15:44


Post by: techsoldaten


The problem with releasing kits for other factions: not many people buy them right now. New models will not change that.

Something about Space Marines is special. Came to terms with that a long time ago.

If that makes you want to walk away, HABA has a nice line of board games with wooden pieces. You might find them more interesting.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 19:31:01


Post by: PenitentJake


 techsoldaten wrote:
The problem with releasing kits for other factions: not many people buy them right now. New models will not change that.

Something about Space Marines is special. Came to terms with that a long time ago.

If that makes you want to walk away, HABA has a nice line of board games with wooden pieces. You might find them more interesting.


If I remember correctly, the Sisters box sold out as quickly as Indomitus, and I've seen another poster comment on how, locally, Necrons are outselling marines. I'm not saying that marines aren't the best sellers- clearly they are.

What I'm saying is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Marines sell more models because they have more models to sell, because they have more developed subfactions which also have more models to sell, and because they are part of almost every box set ever made, so everyone already has some laying around somewhere. If any other faction had all of those things going for it, it might compete with Marine sales.

Until another faction makes it to that place, we'll never know whether or not marines. They're just omnipresent.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 20:32:19


Post by: the_scotsman


I buy that marines, as a whole, are vastly outselling other factions.

But Deathwatch?

Space Wolves?

Blood Angels?

Dark Angels?

I know, competitive play isn't size of the general playerbase, but I have a tough time believing that these factions that seem to consistently bring in Harlequin/GSC/Sisters/Drukhari play numbers at tournaments are secretly so massively outselling such factions as Imperial Guard and Chaos Space Marines that it was more of a priority to get their codex books out.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 20:33:35


Post by: Daedalus81


the_scotsman wrote:
A launch where we are almost a year in now and the only factions with codexes are loyalist marines (not even all of them lol), Death Guard and Necrons is to me, at least not the best situation we could be in from a game health standpoint.


7 months - in a pandemic no less. It seems quite likely that we'd have had DE by now. Literally all of the hated marines are out of the way at 7 months in. GK is the last man standing.

If they put out 5 more before the anniversary they will have covered 19 out of 30 codex-able factions in 1 year with four of those able to take a delay (Sister, Harlies, Custodes, Daemons).


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 20:38:21


Post by: BlackoCatto


 techsoldaten wrote:
The problem with releasing kits for other factions: not many people buy them right now. New models will not change that.

Something about Space Marines is special. Came to terms with that a long time ago.

If that makes you want to walk away, HABA has a nice line of board games with wooden pieces. You might find them more interesting.


Who would think that releasing new stuff and rules for an army? This comment is ridiculous.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 20:38:41


Post by: Eldarain


Assuming we aren't still looking at 9th reskins of the other 6 First Founding Supplements.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 20:43:41


Post by: Daedalus81


 Eldarain wrote:
Assuming we aren't still looking at 9th reskins of the other 6 First Founding Supplements.


Always possible but entirely unnecessary unless they desperately want to sell a couple character kits. Note that Ultras just picked up a character with no new book.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 20:46:08


Post by: Eldarain


Is there bespoke Crusade and secondary objectives content for the remaining 8th Supplement factions in the core 9th Codex?
(Legitimately asking, as if there is there isn't as much need from GW's way of thinking)


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 20:48:11


Post by: SlaveToDorkness


4th edition Infinity is pretty awesome. Free rules with a wiki, free army builder with frequent updates, gorgeous minis, non-depressing lore, and no faction favorites!


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 20:48:19


Post by: Daedalus81


 Eldarain wrote:
Is there bespoke Crusade and secondary objectives content for the remaining 8th Supplement factions in the core 9th Codex?
(Legitimately asking, as if there is there isn't as much need from GW's way of thinking)


Nada


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 20:49:23


Post by: Arbitrator


Nothing is going to change. The guys with the purse strings will obviously look at how profitable Marines are, now more than ever, and laugh in the faces of anyone who recommends they tone down on it. If it ain't broke, why fix it?

That's why I think some kind of Imperial Civil War would do wonders for tables, because it does get a bit silly when 70% of tabletop battles are some variety of Imperial (most likely Marine) versus Imperial (most likely other Marines). At least if there's a reasonable suspension of disbelief as to why a faction would fight itself it salves the wound of one faction being overplayed considerably.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
It's actually in GW's interest for every player to play the same faction. Because that way every kit GW puts out to that faction sells to everyone.
Why spend design resources making a Dark Eldar sculpt and sell to 5% of the playerbase when you can spend less resources (due to commonality of sculpts) and sell to 50% of the playerbase?

That's why I'm so shocked they left Horus Heresy to rot, it seems like a dream situation for GW - Marines, Marines, Marines and a couple of other armies who can be allied in with Marines. They don't even need to make spiky Marines barring a few special units for one Marine Legion.

stroller wrote:
OK.. I get losing interest in space marines...

and I get "why can't *I* have a new shiny?"

but.... just PLAY why don't you? OH! THAT pandemic....

GW has more models on sale than I will ever buy (and I have a lot) even ignoring marines completely....

OP is in the US, which has a lot of gaming stores and tables actively playing.



Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 20:55:17


Post by: kirotheavenger


I agree.
I can only suppose that they didn't want it stealing 40k's playerbase?
Plus I'm sure a large number of people playing older rules because they felt those were better wasn't a good look and wouldn't be encouraging to new players.

Maybe they just wanted to keep it as Forgeworld's thing, and Forgeworld has really been struggling, even before Covid they were culling huge chunks of their store.
I imagine 3d printing has given people the power to turn their nose up at Forgeworld's supreme prices for mediocre products.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 20:59:49


Post by: Arbitrator


 kirotheavenger wrote:
I agree.
I can only suppose that they didn't want it stealing 40k's playerbase?
Plus I'm sure a large number of people playing older rules because they felt those were better wasn't a good look and wouldn't be encouraging to new players.

Maybe they just wanted to keep it as Forgeworld's thing, and Forgeworld has really been struggling, even before Covid they were culling huge chunks of their store.
I imagine 3d printing has given people the power to turn their nose up at Forgeworld's supreme prices for mediocre products.

Most of the people you see screaming Horus Heresy should move to 9th and getting gleeful everytime there's bad news about Forge World are the ones who were playing their Legion armies against 40k ones anyway. At the end of the day it's all money going into the exact same hands - it's why people saying they were sick 40k going into 30k during 7th was kind of funny.

Maybe there isn't any logic behind it really. GW only really pulled off 8th because people were so desperate for literally any reason to return to their fold - the 'balance' of Index's only lasted for a few months after all. 30k was arguably as doomed as other non-GW systems for that reason, although having 8th/9th rules for Legions might've helped it survive a bit longer, although everybody - even the loudest detractors - going over to Primaris-only probably sealed their fate.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 21:24:26


Post by: Tycho


PenitentJake wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
The problem with releasing kits for other factions: not many people buy them right now. New models will not change that.

Something about Space Marines is special. Came to terms with that a long time ago.

If that makes you want to walk away, HABA has a nice line of board games with wooden pieces. You might find them more interesting.


If I remember correctly, the Sisters box sold out as quickly as Indomitus, and I've seen another poster comment on how, locally, Necrons are outselling marines. I'm not saying that marines aren't the best sellers- clearly they are.

What I'm saying is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Marines sell more models because they have more models to sell, because they have more developed subfactions which also have more models to sell, and because they are part of almost every box set ever made, so everyone already has some laying around somewhere. If any other faction had all of those things going for it, it might compete with Marine sales.

Until another faction makes it to that place, we'll never know whether or not marines. They're just omnipresent.


Exactly. GW themselves said this at one point specifically with regards to Tau. It was shortly after that last major revamp they got (I THINK that was 6th ed, but might have been 5th?). Someone from GW publicly said "Tau weren't selling so we weren't really working on them as much. Had we known the new Tau release would be as popular as it was, we'd have done this a lot sooner."

Picture a scenario where a 17 year old kid is in a store looking to start 40k and he's talking to another player about armies - "Well.... these guys get updated every few weeks at this point, have BY FAR the largest model range, are always updated every edition, and have one of everything. These guys are largely composed of models that are older than you, THIS army had its last major revamp 4 editions ago and has only LOST models since then ... "

I honestly think GW would watch that scenario and say "SEE! The non-marines don't sell!" while completely missing the fact that they have, at this point, basically allowed an unintentional anf figurative soft-squatting of several factions. That's a more extreme term that I should probably use, but that's how a new player will look at it. Necrons were dead for eons until Indomitus and the new dex and now they sell like crazy. All GW has to do is release some models that aren't garbage and people will buy them.


I agree.
I can only suppose that they didn't want it stealing 40k's playerbase?
Plus I'm sure a large number of people playing older rules because they felt those were better wasn't a good look and wouldn't be encouraging to new players.

Maybe they just wanted to keep it as Forgeworld's thing, and Forgeworld has really been struggling, even before Covid they were culling huge chunks of their store.
I imagine 3d printing has given people the power to turn their nose up at Forgeworld's supreme prices for mediocre products.


I don't think Covid has helped any, but my guess is, the 30k issues have far more to do with the passing of Alan Bligh than anything else. He was the heart and soul of that project, and filling his shoes cannot be easy. If it's even possible.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 21:34:17


Post by: Mezmorki


For me, my biggest issue with 9th from a release standpoint, is that I feel like the entire game is in a state of total limbo. Marines going to 2W may be perfectly fine in the long run, but not having all of the other codexes updated or FAQ'd or Index'd makes everything feel half-formed right now. I have a hard time getting interested or invested in something without knowing how it's going to pan out.

I don't think I'm alone in feeling this way, and I think this is a reason many are flocking back to OldHammer. It's stable and is a known entity. I also think once people go back to Old Hammer, the gloves are off and people feel more at liberty to house rule or modify the game to make it "their own". There is a certain level of pressure that comes with keeping up with the latest and greatest, and people are just worn out right now.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 21:41:10


Post by: Voss


 Mezmorki wrote:
For me, my biggest issue with 9th from a release standpoint, is that I feel like the entire game is in a state of total limbo. Marines going to 2W may be perfectly fine in the long run, but not having all of the other codexes updated or FAQ'd or Index'd makes everything feel half-formed right now. I have a hard time getting interested or invested in something without knowing how it's going to pan out.


That's definitely a problem. It isn't even just the two wound thing (for factions that are obviously going to get it when their books finally roll around), but even stuff like the DG FAQ where we have to worry about whether an ability is affecting a models movement or its movement characteristic. That might be clearly written in 9th edition books, but in 8th edition books... not so much.
Same for a lot of the cover rules, to be honest, since that system changed. Mostly it means just the light cover rules, but sometimes not.

There is a general move to cleaner, technical wording (though in pure GW style, sometimes they just miss); but that doesn't exist for the great majority of factions. They're still stuck with language that's essentially 'its sort of like this, so whatever.' And by the time it is all cleared up for every faction in the game, we'll likely be hearing about 10th edition...


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 21:51:25


Post by: KurtAngle2


I've been saying for ages that 9TH problem is the slow as heck release schedule that just takes out all the fun from legacy 8th armies.
Index are sort of needed, no questions here


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 21:56:06


Post by: Templarted


The Space Marine spam has driven me, a primarily Space Marine player away from them. Apart from one or two of the ancient kits I’m not touching them at all until the releases slow down. Three codexes so quick just make it unappealing for me, let alone the must have unit spam, I’ll stick to Eldar, the pace of their release suits me better.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 22:03:40


Post by: Karol


KurtAngle2 wrote:
I've been saying for ages that 9TH problem is the slow as heck release schedule that just takes out all the fun from legacy 8th armies.
Index are sort of needed, no questions here


Isn't the norm for GW an update ever 2-3 months and 8th was an oddity, because they reset the whole game, and had new model lines and books ready for the edition for years before. I remember a twich interview with the main concept artists for primaris and he said they have been working on primaris design update since like 5th ed.

I doubt they have a back log big enough to do more, then they are doing now.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 22:09:32


Post by: Mezmorki


Ideally, GW would make a new edition and just release the core rules and all the base codexes at once. I'd gladly have them take twice as long between edition releases to do it all in one release.

They can, of course, then space out the model releases, recognizing that people can use their older models, or proxies. Maybe the new edition launches with new kits ONLY for newly added units where there isn't an already available and suitable kit.

One can dream right?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 22:17:20


Post by: Tycho


 Mezmorki wrote:
Ideally, GW would make a new edition and just release the core rules and all the base codexes at once. I'd gladly have them take twice as long between edition releases to do it all in one release.

They can, of course, then space out the model releases, recognizing that people can use their older models, or proxies. Maybe the new edition launches with new kits ONLY for newly added units where there isn't an already available and suitable kit.

One can dream right?


The only problem is that this bumps up against "no model no rules". They can't reasonably produce all the sprues that would be needed for that all at the same time, so they would have to stagger the release schedule, and this would mean that, if all the books are out "today", there will be x number of units w/out models. Leaving them more open to 3rd party model issues than I think they really want to be. But yes, this would be nice were it possible.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 22:31:25


Post by: kirotheavenger


Voss wrote:
even stuff like the DG FAQ where we have to worry about whether an ability is affecting a models movement or its movement characteristic.

This sort of minutia is something I really wish didn't exist in the game.
You literally have to put a lawyer hat on to understand and explain the difference between those two situations.
If one player doesn't understand how that interaction works, it's going to take a while to explain that and it almost leaves a bad taste in the first player's mouth.
Anyone ever have to explain to an opponent why their Space Marine wasn't allowed to reroll the 3 to-hit, because it actually hit without the minus they had? Every single person normally wouldn't conceive of that interaction, thought it was stupid, and felt cheated.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 22:43:56


Post by: Eldarain


I feel like no model no rules wouldn't be an issue if players felt they were only a few years from seeing decent support and most of their line was reasonably modern. This is even assuming it was at all a quantifiable hit to the 800 pound gorilla of the industry.

It is entirely a "problem" of their own making no matter what way you look at it.

It smacks of corporate think and pure greed as I doubt most players would turn to third party over conversion/counts as from within the GW line. The power of their insular "The Hobby" approach is very strong.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 22:50:18


Post by: Rob Lee


Just going to add my £0.02, based on what the OP has said, take it or leave it.

Firstly, the world has been in the midst of a crippling pandemic this past 12 months. The situation here in the UK has not gone well compared to the Far East and Oceania (that's as far as I'll describe it) and it has impacted on GW. They shut down completely for a period.

So if they've been slow in releasing things for 9th that's probably why. I'm not defending GW, just stating something factual.


Secondly, as long as I have rules for stuff and things generally work I'm happy. I have 20 year old models (some even dating back further). 90% of the 40k models I have were bought pre-2005. I believe my regular gaming buddy is of the same opinion. It doesn't matter to us if we're using old models, new models, proxies or whatever (we've been known to use paper squares back in the day), so lack of model releases or one faction getting more than the other doesn't really matter.

There are several factions that haven't been properly fleshed out, ever, dating all the way back to 3rd edition, probably even Rogue Trader. The marine-spam recently is nothing new.

And apparently 8th edition codices are still valid, until superseded by 9th edition codices. So no big deal there either.

Myself and my gaming buddy therefore employ a couple of techniques that seem to be becoming antiquated - making do with what we have and "house rules".


Thirdly, I think many people who are "losing interest" are in part too focused on the competitive aspect. There's too much emphasis on the tournament scene as it is already and it sucks the fun out of the games imho. I went away from the GW hobby for a period (for various "life" reasons) and came back in recent years and it's all "meta this, meta that" all over the internet. It seems that competition has overridden the fun of sitting down with like minded people, chewing the fat, and playing a game.

That's not to say I don't lose interest from time to time myself, but that's more to do with the lack of gaming clubs in the immediate area of the UK that I live in that I can access (I don't drive), and the cost of the hobby (including the tri-yearly rules refresh that GW seem to have adopted). But not really because of GW's immediate release schedule or priority.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 23:03:17


Post by: Stormonu


I've just gotten tired of GW.

Left the game in 2nd, came back at the tail end of 5th. Played mostly in 6th, was a bit put off by 7th.

8th rolled around and I got interested again, but ended up getting in very few games. Covid outright killed the chance the chance to play with others.

No interest in 9th, and now my armies (all 12, except the Eldar) are finally fully painted. Gone back to RPGs. Even if I started using the minis again for a wargame, it'd be for my homebrew rules or 8th edition.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/22 23:56:18


Post by: The Warp Forge


 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The release schedule isn't really doing it, but the mechanics are for me.

Nothing feels really effective or satisfying to use, particularly against Marines and marine-like armies where everything just kind of sponges off units and a heavy artillery gun kills like half a guy.

I played a game of 5th edition the other day, and it was astonishing how much better it felt. Bringing the right firepower onto the right target was rewarded with immediate and substantial effect in a way it just isn't now, where a mid-strength, AP-2, D2/3 many shot statline is universally the most effective option and tank guns feel anemic.

And despite the vastly greater ability to actually have an effect with weapons our armies didn't disintegrate nearly as fast. Even though my AP3 blast templates basically erased a squad with each hit and my vanquisher squadron was punching holes in his tanks, the fact that most units had to chose to move or fire at full effect, and fire or charge, made the game both a lot less lethal and a feel a lot more maneuver focused [My friend might disagree, since I immobilized or blew up both his Rhinos and his Land Raider in the opening salvo of my guns]


If I can get my friends to do so, I might be angling towards a reversion to 5th ed. Even if it has it's own problems [wound allocation *coughcough*], it still feels better than 9th.


5th Wasn't perfect, but I agree with a bit of homebrewing to make all the factions in-line with each other it could have been the golden age of 40k imo.

I already started my own re-boot of 5th ed. if you want to check out here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/794253.page
I've already finished CSM. All I'm doing is updating the codex's and adding in the newest models.

Back on topic, I can't say I'm feeling fatigue right now more awaiting in anticipation on the future release of the Night Lords supplement. I'm hoping for decent rules and, more importantly, a much, much better trait.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 00:10:01


Post by: mrFickle


The releases for AOS and the other games in the AOS do appear to be more balanced. My other impression is that the fantasy sculpts are more interesting and varied. Some of the new 40K sculpts are brilliant but they are largely more power armour which can only be so varied. The fantasy setting of AOS seems to spark the imagination in the designers more than for 40K.

Mind you I was looking at the FW website and the approach they’ve taken to chaos marines blows GW out the water especially when looking at chaos demons and CSM demon engines.

By all rights eldar should have the most fantastic sculpts of 40K. I really think if GW invested more in these armies people would buy the minis


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 01:13:37


Post by: techsoldaten


Tycho wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
The problem with releasing kits for other factions: not many people buy them right now. New models will not change that.

Something about Space Marines is special. Came to terms with that a long time ago.

If that makes you want to walk away, HABA has a nice line of board games with wooden pieces. You might find them more interesting.


If I remember correctly, the Sisters box sold out as quickly as Indomitus, and I've seen another poster comment on how, locally, Necrons are outselling marines. I'm not saying that marines aren't the best sellers- clearly they are.

What I'm saying is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Marines sell more models because they have more models to sell, because they have more developed subfactions which also have more models to sell, and because they are part of almost every box set ever made, so everyone already has some laying around somewhere. If any other faction had all of those things going for it, it might compete with Marine sales.

Until another faction makes it to that place, we'll never know whether or not marines. They're just omnipresent.


Exactly. GW themselves said this at one point specifically with regards to Tau. It was shortly after that last major revamp they got (I THINK that was 6th ed, but might have been 5th?). Someone from GW publicly said "Tau weren't selling so we weren't really working on them as much. Had we known the new Tau release would be as popular as it was, we'd have done this a lot sooner."

Picture a scenario where a 17 year old kid is in a store looking to start 40k and he's talking to another player about armies - "Well.... these guys get updated every few weeks at this point, have BY FAR the largest model range, are always updated every edition, and have one of everything. These guys are largely composed of models that are older than you, THIS army had its last major revamp 4 editions ago and has only LOST models since then ... "

I honestly think GW would watch that scenario and say "SEE! The non-marines don't sell!" while completely missing the fact that they have, at this point, basically allowed an unintentional anf figurative soft-squatting of several factions. That's a more extreme term that I should probably use, but that's how a new player will look at it. Necrons were dead for eons until Indomitus and the new dex and now they sell like crazy. All GW has to do is release some models that aren't garbage and people will buy them..

Companies with market caps as large as GWs tend not to get caught by surprise when it comes to pricing, demand, features, etc.

Take that comment however you want it, but were they leaving money on the table by not releasing as many models for other factions? Probably not.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 02:47:34


Post by: waefre_1


 techsoldaten wrote:

Companies with market caps as large as GWs tend not to get caught by surprise when it comes to pricing, demand, features, etc.

Take that comment however you want it, but were they leaving money on the table by not releasing as many models for other factions? Probably not.

GW is a company that famously did no research into what their users wanted for quite some time. They've been blindsided by demand before, as has been brought up in this very thread. Regardless of trends, we simply cannot grant GW the level of competence/foresight required to know something the playerbase did not w/r/t model demand.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 03:22:26


Post by: RaptorusRex


What would Dakka be without its Two-Minutes Hate for Space Marines? Can such a thing be defined?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 04:02:55


Post by: Irkjoe


I would love to know what goes through the minds of the decision makers involved in all of this. I guess as long as they sell it's working; if you don't like marines then you aren't part of the main target anymore. You just exist in the peripheral, buying old stuff and waiting.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 05:05:49


Post by: PaddyMick


 Irkjoe wrote:
I would love to know what goes through the minds of the decision makers involved in all of this. I guess as long as they sell it's working; if you don't like marines then you aren't part of the main target anymore. You just exist in the peripheral, buying old stuff and waiting.


I think it's probably just that Space Marines are popular. Supply and demand. Sounds simple but there it is.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 05:14:12


Post by: Tycho


 waefre_1 wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:

Companies with market caps as large as GWs tend not to get caught by surprise when it comes to pricing, demand, features, etc.

Take that comment however you want it, but were they leaving money on the table by not releasing as many models for other factions? Probably not.

GW is a company that famously did no research into what their users wanted for quite some time. They've been blindsided by demand before, as has been brought up in this very thread. Regardless of trends, we simply cannot grant GW the level of competence/foresight required to know something the playerbase did not w/r/t model demand.


Exactly. Companies with proper forecasting, market research and predictive models are STILL at times, caught off guard by real world results, and GW has almost none of those things. They're still essentially running certain aspects of the business like it's a hobby side-gig operating out of Rick P's garage. That's part of their charm, but also a big part of why they run into issues. They've only recently begun to look outside themselves and acknowledge the world "outside of Nottingham". Let's not forget this is the same company who, in the era of the internet and social media, decided to shut down all such outlets for a surprisingly long time. I don't think they're nearly as back wards as some think, but let's also not pretend like this is Apple being surprised by the latest iPhone results ....

They can and do (frequently) get caught off guard.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 06:11:02


Post by: techsoldaten


Tycho wrote:
 waefre_1 wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:

Companies with market caps as large as GWs tend not to get caught by surprise when it comes to pricing, demand, features, etc.

Take that comment however you want it, but were they leaving money on the table by not releasing as many models for other factions? Probably not.

GW is a company that famously did no research into what their users wanted for quite some time. They've been blindsided by demand before, as has been brought up in this very thread. Regardless of trends, we simply cannot grant GW the level of competence/foresight required to know something the playerbase did not w/r/t model demand.


Exactly. Companies with proper forecasting, market research and predictive models are STILL at times, caught off guard by real world results, and GW has almost none of those things. They're still essentially running certain aspects of the business like it's a hobby side-gig operating out of Rick P's garage. That's part of their charm, but also a big part of why they run into issues. They've only recently begun to look outside themselves and acknowledge the world "outside of Nottingham". Let's not forget this is the same company who, in the era of the internet and social media, decided to shut down all such outlets for a surprisingly long time. I don't think they're nearly as back wards as some think, but let's also not pretend like this is Apple being surprised by the latest iPhone results ....

They can and do (frequently) get caught off guard.

Dunno if it's safe to assume GW does no market research or that they haven't historically.

https://ycharts.com/companies/GMWKF/market_cap

The company's market cap is $4.6 Billion, that's about 2/3rds of Mattel. Pretty much doubled during lockdowns, even though they had their production / storefronts closed for months. They have profitable revenue streams in retail, digital and distribution, not many companies are successful in those 3 areas simultaneously.

If you read their annual report, it talks about investments in robotics, automation, global supply chains, etc. Each of those areas is capital intensive and requires a fair amount of technical insight into business processes to pull off. Nobody spends on that kind of infrastructure in a vacuum.

GW appears to be all about merchandizing these days. Roundtree brought back boxed games, expanded the factions available for 40k, partnered with card companies, licensed IP for dozens of video games, and increased bottom line profitability by +200% over where Kirby left it.

Businesses like this don't happen by accident. If there was money to be made with additional Xenos releases, I'm pretty sure they would have been prioritized.

Help me understand - where does the idea come from that a public company with a PE Ratio of $36+ and a Board of Directors headed by an ex-PWC guy does no research? A few statements from game designers?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 06:43:17


Post by: Jidmah


Multiple of John Kirby's preambles explicitly said so. The great survey which lead to plastic sisters was pretty much the first time they had done anything that remotely looked like market research in a decade.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 06:58:51


Post by: Bosskelot


I also think it's incredibly reductive to say that the reason they don't do lots of non-Marine releases for 40k is because they wouldn't sell as well. Like, if that was their entire outlook they would literally release nothing else but Marines. AOS, Specialist Games, LOTR... all gone, because they don't sell as much as Marines do.

But clearly that isn't the case. Can you honestly say that this guy would sell better than a new Vect model, or even a new generic Drukhari HQ? Drukhari players massively dwarf Hedonite ones because they're more established and 40k is like 10x the size of AOS in players. Or do you think that these fething things would outsell any 40k release outside of like, Harlequins?

Fact of the matter is, in a lot of cases, what models get done or re-done comes down a lot to internal studio enthusiasm. If there's little interest in continued support for Drukhari internally, not much will get done for them on a model front. GSC got pushed hard internally and even got a 2nd wave despite not setting the world alight with strong sales numbers (I think they did well, but nothing incredible) and Admech have gotten a ton of support not only because they sold well, but because they're something "new" and people within the studio are enthusiastic for them.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 07:05:36


Post by: ccs


 techsoldaten wrote:

Help me understand - where does the idea come from that a public company with a PE Ratio of $36+ and a Board of Directors headed by an ex-PWC guy does no research? A few statements from game designers?


Well, to put it politely, from people who have no idea what they're talking about. The internets full of them.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 07:07:26


Post by: kodos


 techsoldaten wrote:

Help me understand - where does the idea come from that a public company with a PE Ratio of $36+ and a Board of Directors headed by an ex-PWC guy does no research? A few statements from game designers?

"no market research" comes from Kirby and is no longer a point

and your other points are more important
boxed games, card games, Mobile and PC games, GW Managment has realised that their IP is the main selling point not the models or the rules
hence they changed to make the most out of it

the other point why GW makes more money now is that they changed their additute to the community


by now GW should have realised why non-Marines do not sell (not that they do no research, but geting the rght conclusions out of the data available is another thing) and this is for the main point that people don't want 1 or 2 new models but regular updates and full new ranges. No one is going to buy 20 year old models to start an army just because that 1 new support/hero model looks awesome
while Marines are at a point were most people have a lot and just buy the one new model and don't need to start from scratch
and this is were Primaris come in and why we saw so many Marine releases in a short time, to get people started over with Primaris not only 1-2 new units are needed but a full range including vehicles

even GW had not the capacity to do this on one go and other factions are too large by now as well to get this done with one release
it is not that Eldar won't sell enough if they get a total revamp, it is that a revamp would take several release slots and a longer time

and by this point, 40k (and all the sub-games) is GW's Chas Cow and the are trying to get maximum profit by minimum investment
(a reason why the App is what it is, or low afford rules etc happen)

hence only one major revamp of non-Marines per Edition as the this can be done with the Core Box opponent that need to be done anyway and the 3-4 year Edition cycle is also the time GW needs to re-do and produce a new faction

PS: they have tried to do the same thing with Stormcast in AoS as with Marines and it did not work
for those reasons as the new game more people needed to start from scratch and if all factions have the same starting point and not enough models to have a full range ready, they all sell similar bad
and here they changed to mini-factions instead of doing big ones and have it done with 1-2 release slots and all of them sell well


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 08:32:33


Post by: dan2026


How long do Craftworld Eldar have to wait for their model range update?
Its getting absurd at this point.

So many of their models are ancient and desparetly need updating.

And yet GW continue to pump out damn Space Marines. I'm utterly fed up.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 08:41:11


Post by: AngryAngel80


Rob Lee wrote:
Just going to add my £0.02, based on what the OP has said, take it or leave it.

Firstly, the world has been in the midst of a crippling pandemic this past 12 months. The situation here in the UK has not gone well compared to the Far East and Oceania (that's as far as I'll describe it) and it has impacted on GW. They shut down completely for a period.

So if they've been slow in releasing things for 9th that's probably why. I'm not defending GW, just stating something factual.


Secondly, as long as I have rules for stuff and things generally work I'm happy. I have 20 year old models (some even dating back further). 90% of the 40k models I have were bought pre-2005. I believe my regular gaming buddy is of the same opinion. It doesn't matter to us if we're using old models, new models, proxies or whatever (we've been known to use paper squares back in the day), so lack of model releases or one faction getting more than the other doesn't really matter.

There are several factions that haven't been properly fleshed out, ever, dating all the way back to 3rd edition, probably even Rogue Trader. The marine-spam recently is nothing new.

And apparently 8th edition codices are still valid, until superseded by 9th edition codices. So no big deal there either.

Myself and my gaming buddy therefore employ a couple of techniques that seem to be becoming antiquated - making do with what we have and "house rules".


Thirdly, I think many people who are "losing interest" are in part too focused on the competitive aspect. There's too much emphasis on the tournament scene as it is already and it sucks the fun out of the games imho. I went away from the GW hobby for a period (for various "life" reasons) and came back in recent years and it's all "meta this, meta that" all over the internet. It seems that competition has overridden the fun of sitting down with like minded people, chewing the fat, and playing a game.

That's not to say I don't lose interest from time to time myself, but that's more to do with the lack of gaming clubs in the immediate area of the UK that I live in that I can access (I don't drive), and the cost of the hobby (including the tri-yearly rules refresh that GW seem to have adopted). But not really because of GW's immediate release schedule or priority.


I agree with you, let me say that. I'll add however for some players avoiding the tournament mentality isn't as easy as it sounds. If you play with those who only play the bleeding edge, it sort of pushes you to be worried of power over all else and that player could very well want to avoid that but if its play but super competitive or not play at all, they'll usually pick to do it with the competitive edge. Which this release schedule tends to punish players for as the haves just slap around the have nots and tournament minded folks won't tend to house rule things so everyone is on a good footing,

I wish it was just as easy as avoid the tournament mentality for everyone. Getting that, it's no wonder GW burns some players out.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 08:41:17


Post by: techsoldaten


Jidmah wrote:Multiple of John Kirby's preambles explicitly said so. The great survey which lead to plastic sisters was pretty much the first time they had done anything that remotely looked like market research in a decade.


Kirby GW and Roundtree GW are 2 different companies.

Bosskelot wrote:I also think it's incredibly reductive to say that the reason they don't do lots of non-Marine releases for 40k is because they wouldn't sell as well. Like, if that was their entire outlook they would literally release nothing else but Marines. AOS, Specialist Games, LOTR... all gone, because they don't sell as much as Marines do.


I'd say it's evident GW wants to capitalize and become a global something-other-than-just-a-tabletop-game-company, otherwise they would not be dealing with Disney.

Models are commodities. Some of the kits have been around for 20 years and continue to generate revenue. I'm certain if they came out with a new box of Pathfinders, there is a certain segment of who that would purchase them and the new box would be profitable.

The question is not whether Xenos models like Tau would sell, or even why there never seems to be a limit to the number of Space Marines models GW is willing to release.

The question is why would GW invest the time and resources in producing standalone games. These games are released and mostly gone within a year (sometimes less.) It's an approach that contrasts with the 40k game pretty starkly, in that there's a limit to how long they are willing to make money off the games. Why do they do stop producing many of the standalone games after a certain point, and what does it tell us about the reason for not revamping the Tau / Eldar / Ork lines?

No company makes money by taking attention off their cash cow. If they release a standalone game, it has to compliment the main game (i.e. Necromunda, Kill Team, Adeptus Titanicus) or it has to be an experiment (Blackstone Fortress.) But every dollar spent is one that's not going towards 40k, and the market will only grow so fast. Let's say Blackstone Fortress was a massive success and people starting playing that to the exclusion of 40k, how would that work for GW? It would be a disaster, there's no way to continuously release new models to expand that game.

The same principle is at work when it comes to Xenos armies, and we have to be clear what is meant by the word 'sell.' As a company, GW seeks to find people who are going to buy models. They are a little more responsive to the player base these days, but there is a concept of attrition. The hobby is expensive, life catches up with people and they leave the game. GW would not exist without a steady flow of new players. They need those players to spend a few thousand on the game, and they need a segment of them to spend a lot more over the course of years on multiple armies.

Do first time players identify more with Tau or Space Marines? Tau are kind of cool looking, I appreciate them but I know a lot of people who don't and never will. Power armor, there's something sexy about it, as well as the mysticism and the gothic feel. Seeing both side by side on a tabletop, do you think most people favor Tau or Space Marines? The answer to that question is important because it affects that decision whether or not to buy into the game.

I'd bet you could measure the number of first time players who convert to paying customers based on seeing a Tau army, and it's smaller than the number of Space Marine players. Just as with the standalone games, if GW gave Tau incredible rules, a new line of amazing models, fantastic coverage in White Dwarf, stand-up signs and posters to every hobby shop to promote the Tau - it would be a disaster. They would sell a lot of models while attracting fewer players to the game, which catches up to them in the long run. Even a small difference in converting new players would have a big impact on profits 5 - 10 years down the road.

So selling is complex. It's not just about updating a line with new models, it's about selling the game to people in a way where they're willing to part with a significant amount of money. That's what capitalizing means and it's why CSM rules always suck.

I call it the Juan Diaz rule. You can't make the models for a subfaction so cool they detract from the first time buying experience. If a teenager can't ask his mom for the money to buy something because it's traditional Slaanesh, GW loses a lot of money over time.

Bosskelot wrote:But clearly that isn't the case. Can you honestly say that this guy would sell better than a new Vect model, or even a new generic Drukhari HQ? Drukhari players massively dwarf Hedonite ones because they're more established and 40k is like 10x the size of AOS in players. Or do you think that these fething things would outsell any 40k release outside of like, Harlequins?

Yes, if one is around longer. GW has all sorts of reasons for discontinuing certain models other than the cast broke.

kodos wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:

Help me understand - where does the idea come from that a public company with a PE Ratio of $36+ and a Board of Directors headed by an ex-PWC guy does no research? A few statements from game designers?

"no market research" comes from Kirby and is no longer a point

and your other points are more important
boxed games, card games, Mobile and PC games, GW Managment has realised that their IP is the main selling point not the models or the rules
hence they changed to make the most out of it

the other point why GW makes more money now is that they changed their additute to the community

Do you really think the attitude to the community is what caused the company to grow 1600% since 2017?

I've not reviewed any internal sales figures, but it does seem like some other factors may have played a big role. GW grew other lines of business successfully outside straight 40k, grown their publishing arm to include more books and young adult novels, expanded their retail footprint (and contracted it), set up operations in North America to make their supply chain more efficient, capitalized on their IP for video games through a pretty robust release of titles, etc.

I recognize that there's a big difference in how players are treated by the company, but I'd be curious to learn how much of a role 40k sales played in growth compared to all these other revenue generators. I suspect it's important, but not the most important factor in growth.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 08:41:30


Post by: Not Online!!!


 dan2026 wrote:
How long do Craftworld Eldar have to wait for their model range update?
Its getting absurd at this point.

So many of their models are ancient and desparetly need updating.

And yet GW continue to pump out damn Space Marines. I'm utterly fed up.


Could be worse, you could've played corsairs and be legended now (well what's left of it anyways)...


But i think it shows through with how the insta updates for all loyalist supplements was done and that the general changes of that weren't even generally applied to all other SM /CSM factions despite being a 5 minute change tops...



Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 09:02:26


Post by: Jidmah


 techsoldaten wrote:
Jidmah wrote:Multiple of John Kirby's preambles explicitly said so. The great survey which lead to plastic sisters was pretty much the first time they had done anything that remotely looked like market research in a decade.


Kirby GW and Roundtree GW are 2 different companies.

The first big community survey was 2017, only slightly more than 3 years ago. People claim that the development of mode releases takes roughly 2-3 years (which matches with the time it took them to make sisters).
Only based on those two facts alone, it's fairly safe to assume that many of the decisions that led to the primaris revamp of space marines was NOT based on market research.
An that is before even considering the myriad of sources uniformly telling us that the primaries project definitely started in the kirby era, up to claims that they started all the way back during 5th. The sources disagree why what happened exactly, but not one puts the primaris project in Rountree's responsibility.

Kirby GW and Roundtree GW also are *not* two different companies. Rountree has to live with Kirby's legacy and all projects he started.
You also don't change a whole company by changing the CEO, especially not within a few years.

Thus, the flood of marines during the last years neither originated from market research nor Rountree's genius.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 10:19:21


Post by: Karol


 techsoldaten wrote:


Businesses like this don't happen by accident. If there was money to be made with additional Xenos releases, I'm pretty sure they would have been prioritized.

Help me understand - where does the idea come from that a public company with a PE Ratio of $36+ and a Board of Directors headed by an ex-PWC guy does no research? A few statements from game designers?


Plus, I think they are also doing the smart safe thing. It is better to produce a set number of something and sell 100% of it, specially when you are more or less a monopolist, then produce a lot more, then sell maybe a bit more , but end up with 20 or 30% unsold merch with old the costs related to making and then storing them.



Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 10:43:58


Post by: vipoid


 techsoldaten wrote:

Kirby GW and Roundtree GW are 2 different companies.


No, it's the same company and doing almost everything that made people hate it in the Kirby era.

The only difference is that it puts out an FAQ once in a while and has a much better PR department.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 10:46:18


Post by: Not Online!!!


 vipoid wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:

Kirby GW and Roundtree GW are 2 different companies.


No, it's the same company and doing almost everything that made people hate it in the Kirby era.

The only difference is that it puts out an FAQ once in a while and has a much better PR department.


Having a pr Department is allready more then old gw.
It's not even a particulary good one.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 10:49:58


Post by: kirotheavenger


In my many ways the current GW is worse than Kirby's - at least on box prices.
But a friendly face for the community goes a hell of a long way to engender support, more than any actual actions.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 11:06:50


Post by: kodos


 techsoldaten wrote:

Do you really think the attitude to the community is what caused the company to grow 1600% since 2017?

I've not reviewed any internal sales figures, but it does seem like some other factors may have played a big role. GW grew other lines of business successfully outside straight 40k, grown their publishing arm to include more books and young adult novels, expanded their retail footprint (and contracted it), set up operations in North America to make their supply chain more efficient, capitalized on their IP for video games through a pretty robust release of titles, etc.

I recognize that there's a big difference in how players are treated by the company, but I'd be curious to learn how much of a role 40k sales played in growth compared to all these other revenue generators. I suspect it's important, but not the most important factor in growth.


Yes, getting that the 2 IP's (Old World and 40k) are their best selling product and Community interaction are the 2 reasons why the made such a big step

do you really think 40k would still be played that much if the only answer you get (if you get an answer at all) if you ask a rule question would be "we don't make mistakes"?

No FAQ/Earrata, no GHB/CA, no Rumour Engine, no point adjustments, no response to anything but problems with your shop-orders, no social media, no made to order, and so on

the change in community interaction from litrally nothing to all those things was the major part of why they are in the current position.

40k was in a decline at the end of 7th, and even with he reset of the game with 8th, if they would have continued and not giving out FAQ/Errata or start changing points early on, it might have stopped the decrease but without the change in community interaction it want have seen the big growth either


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 11:31:58


Post by: kirotheavenger


 kodos wrote:


do you really think 40k would still be played that much if the only answer you get (if you get an answer at all) if you ask a rule question would be "we don't make mistakes"?

Necromunda is fairly popular and that's basically the tagline though
What FAQs we do get only address the absolute worst issues, and it's not uncommon for them to have to go back and adjust the FAQ later because it failed solve the problem (or even created a new problem).

What was killing 7th was the huge power disparity between meta lists and regular lists.
I joined a 'friendly' tournament at the end of 7th, just bringing my normal fluffy list as I was promised was the point of the tournament. I proceeded to get absolutely bent the feth over by Eldar Scatbikes, Knights, and all the rest. Many games I didn't inflict a single casualty such was the speed at which I was tabled.
It's easy to see why 7th wasn't popular with most players.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 12:26:55


Post by: kodos


and now imagine 7th would have seen point adjustments and rules updates/changes at least once a year

I haven't seen lot of Necromunda recently
lot of people who played in the past (or still played the old version from time to time) jumped on the initial release that created some hype

but it was dropped soon after by a lot and at least here, it is not more popular than it was before just that people use the new plastic models instead of the metal ones but keep going with the community rules (as it was before)


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 13:16:27


Post by: Arbitrator


GW were able to do the absolute bare minimum to bring people running back with open arms. Having point adjustments/updates to 7th would absolutely have had the same effect as 8th edition did, because it would've given people something to point at and go "Look! Look! GW is listening now! They've completely changed, I always loved you, please take me back!"

Necromunda's always been that game clubs bring out on a whim and run a campaign for a few weeks/months. The initial rerelease was undoubtedly shaky with it's horrid release methods (Gang War books) but we know GW have few issues cutting limbs off if they're not sustainable, so that it's continuing to receive pretty active support means it must be profitable enough.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 14:18:43


Post by: Tycho


Help me understand - where does the idea come from that a public company with a PE Ratio of $36+ and a Board of Directors headed by an ex-PWC guy does no research? A few statements from game designers?


Other have answered a lot of this already, but let me add some things. So, GW is an always has been, at the forefront of certain things in the industry. Like others have pointed out, and like you said in your post, they have large investments in tech. Model making, injection molding, 3d printing. When it comes to anything to do with the process of making models, GW wins.

But, when it comes to anything else? Not so much. Because again, they are STILL running portions of it like it's a hobby side gig. Let's look at some examples. Surely, a company with a PE Ratio of $36+ would know that squatting their oldest IP in favor of a game with silly rules and no way to make balanced armies would be a disaster right? Surely they wouldn't release something as insane as the first version of AoS right? Surely, if Coca-Cola is going to release "New Coke", it will be a smash hit right?

Let's look at a more recent example. The AoS app - Haven't used it myself but when it's brought up, it seems to have some pretty good feelings around it from the community. So, surely, a company with a Board of Directors headed by an ex-PwC guy would simply duplicate was successful about that app to make a 40k app right? Surely, they would know (because it's Rountree now and they have big-boy forecasting models and market research) that releasing an app at $5.00 a month with almost no functionality, and zero army building capability would be a massively bad idea right?

I worked for one of PWC's biggest competitors for a very long time (I ran the in-house agency and was pasrt of many a consulting pod), so I'm not just talking out my arse here. Even the biggest and baddest companies out there make mistakes and get caught with their pants down. I could list examples for days. And that's companies that have been doing things like proper market research for a long time. They STILL get taken by surprise. So it should come as NO surprise that a company like GW, who's position in the industry comes about more due to how long they've been in business in an industry where it's exceedingly hard to compete, (and where they are often "#1" simply because if people don't play a GW game, they won't get a game at all), a company that has only recently started looking outward instead of inward (and still hasn't adopted that fully) makes bad calls and gets things wrong sometimes.

I think at least part of the "Marine problem" is a combination of what was already planned along with covid hampering production capability. If they only have "X" amount of production at their disposal, it makes total sense to just say "f-it. Let's just crank out marines because we know they'll sell, and we can slip in the 'Cron release after." This makes total sense and for all we know they have a bunch of things designed up and ready to go once they can have fully staffed production facilities again, but the Xenos don't sell mantra still doesn't work. All we hear is "they don't sell". Then GW makes a good revamp and suddenly they can't keep that army on the shelves. Kind of flys in the face of "they don't sell" .....


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 14:29:14


Post by: techsoldaten


 Jidmah wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Jidmah wrote:Multiple of John Kirby's preambles explicitly said so. The great survey which lead to plastic sisters was pretty much the first time they had done anything that remotely looked like market research in a decade.


Kirby GW and Roundtree GW are 2 different companies.

The first big community survey was 2017, only slightly more than 3 years ago. People claim that the development of mode releases takes roughly 2-3 years (which matches with the time it took them to make sisters).
Only based on those two facts alone, it's fairly safe to assume that many of the decisions that led to the primaris revamp of space marines was NOT based on market research.
An that is before even considering the myriad of sources uniformly telling us that the primaries project definitely started in the kirby era, up to claims that they started all the way back during 5th. The sources disagree why what happened exactly, but not one puts the primaris project in Rountree's responsibility.

Kirby GW and Roundtree GW also are *not* two different companies. Rountree has to live with Kirby's legacy and all projects he started.
You also don't change a whole company by changing the CEO, especially not within a few years.

Thus, the flood of marines during the last years neither originated from market research nor Rountree's genius.

The Market Cap and PE Ratio beg to differ.

The question of who decided to make Marines bigger means nothing. Primaris Marines have very little to do with how GW experienced 1600% growth over 3.5 years.

Making them bigger has everything to do with whether or not GW will be around 10 years from now. They would not be getting bigger unless GW knew size of power armored figures attracted more people to the game. If this was about retail sales, GW would have banned Old Marines and forced everyone to upgrade because they write the rules and always hike the price.

Saying Roundtree lives with Kirby's legacy - maybe in terms of design decisions related to 40k. But that's not a company, that's something a company sells. I can point at 50 things GW does to generate revenue now that they didn't in 2015.

Tycho wrote:
I worked for one of PWC's biggest competitors for a very long time (I ran the in-house agency and was pasrt of many a consulting pod), so I'm not just talking out my arse here. Even the biggest and baddest companies out there make mistakes and get caught with their pants down. I could list examples for days. And that's companies that have been doing things like proper market research for a long time. They STILL get taken by surprise. So it should come as NO surprise that a company like GW, who's position in the industry comes about more due to how long they've been in business in an industry where it's exceedingly hard to compete, (and where they are often "#1" simply because if people don't play a GW game, they won't get a game at all), a company that has only recently started looking outward instead of inward (and still hasn't adopted that fully) makes bad calls and gets things wrong sometimes.

I have no clue what mistake you are referring to. Please be as specific as possible and explain what having their pants down means in the context of GW.

I see no evidence of mistakes in the Roundtree era.

Companies do not reach $1B valuations by accident. Companies with a retail presence do not double their market cap during a global pandemic in the absence of a plan that's well articulated and ready to be executed. These things are evidence of great success and a corporate ethos solely focused on fully commercializing it's IP. These kinds of successes are rare and do not happen in the absence of a plan.

Are you suggesting the Board gets together to simple write resolutions demanding more Space Marines? What are you really trying to say here?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 14:31:59


Post by: Daedalus81


KurtAngle2 wrote:
slow as heck release schedule


This perspective absolutely boggles my mind.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 14:34:29


Post by: Tycho


 Daedalus81 wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
slow as heck release schedule


This perspective absolutely boggles my mind.


I missed that before .... it's odd on several levels ....

Making them bigger has everything to do with whether or not GW will be around 10 years from now. They would not be getting bigger unless GW knew size of power armored figures attracted more people to the game. If this was about retail sales, GW would have banned Old Marines and forced everyone to upgrade because they write the rules and always hike the price.


It was absolutely about retail sales. Not banning the old marines straight away means you don't alienate a MASSIVE portion of your customer base, while also not invalidating a MASSIVE portion of your back catalogue ...


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 14:52:31


Post by: Nurglitch


Plus it's a pretty good solution to the problem of how to sell people more Space Marines. The HH only sells masses of MkIII and MkIV armour to whales, whereas new 40k Space Marines (in 3-4 new varieties even) sell to a much larger market.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 14:56:30


Post by: kirotheavenger


Keeping existing Oldmarines was a big part of the appeal of Primaris.
You didn't have to start an entirely new faction all at once, that's a big upfront investment that's scary for people. Especially if they already have a faction they enjoy.
But with Primaris, you could add just one squad to your existing collection and still be good. Then another, and another.

This is largely why Allies were created at the beginning of 6th. It allowed people to branch out into more armies by using their existing collections to soften the start up cost.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 14:56:49


Post by: Tycho


I have no clue what mistake you are referring to. Please be as specific as possible and explain what having their pants down means in the context of GW.

I see no evidence of mistakes in the Roundtree era.




Read the whole post .... I listed several such examples, to include mistakes made in the Roundtree era ....

And again no. If you read the whole post, you'd pretty clearly see I'm not saying the "get here by accident" ...

Also not suggesting they're all morons or whatever you seem to be getting from what I said ... I mean hell, I even gave them credit for good decision making too. lol


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 15:00:07


Post by: techsoldaten


Tycho wrote:

Making them bigger has everything to do with whether or not GW will be around 10 years from now. They would not be getting bigger unless GW knew size of power armored figures attracted more people to the game. If this was about retail sales, GW would have banned Old Marines and forced everyone to upgrade because they write the rules and always hike the price.


It was absolutely about retail sales. Not banning the old marines straight away means you don't alienate a MASSIVE portion of your customer base, while also not invalidating a MASSIVE portion of your back catalogue ...

Heh, that's cute. You said you worked for which one of PWC's competitors again?

Break that down for me, explain how retails sales of Primaris marines are expanding GW's bottom line. Are we talking about $1 B in new sales annually?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tycho wrote:
I have no clue what mistake you are referring to. Please be as specific as possible and explain what having their pants down means in the context of GW.

I see no evidence of mistakes in the Roundtree era.




Read the whole post .... I listed several such examples, to include mistakes made in the Roundtree era ....

And again no. If you read the whole post, you'd pretty clearly see I'm not saying the "get here by accident" ...

Also not suggesting they're all morons or whatever you seem to be getting from what I said ... I mean hell, I even gave them credit for good decision making too. lol

And you failed to point at a mistake.

You have to point out a mistake to say that people have their pants down. Otherwise you are just spouting words.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 15:04:26


Post by: kirotheavenger


 techsoldaten wrote:


Break that down for me, explain how retails sales of Primaris marines are expanding GW's bottom line. Are we talking about $1 B in new sales annually?

GW hasn't made a penny on 2/3s of it's model releases, right
 techsoldaten wrote:

And you failed to point at a mistake.

You have to point out a mistake to say that people have their pants down. Otherwise you are just spouting words.

How are you defining a mistake?
Do you not think their map was a horrific launch? Have you seen it's appstore ratings?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 15:05:22


Post by: Tycho


For the record - Deloitte.

And the Roundtree mistake was here:

Let's look at a more recent example. The AoS app - Haven't used it myself but when it's brought up, it seems to have some pretty good feelings around it from the community. So, surely, a company with a Board of Directors headed by an ex-PwC guy would simply duplicate was successful about that app to make a 40k app right? Surely, they would know (because it's Rountree now and they have big-boy forecasting models and market research) that releasing an app at $5.00 a month with almost no functionality, and zero army building capability would be a massively bad idea right?


And before you try to say "That was no mistake" .... Let's also consider the fact that it's the first time (or at least the first time I can recall) of GW EVER actually discounting anything ....






Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 15:19:00


Post by: techsoldaten


Tycho wrote:
For the record - Deloitte.

And the Roundtree mistake was here:

Let's look at a more recent example. The AoS app - Haven't used it myself but when it's brought up, it seems to have some pretty good feelings around it from the community. So, surely, a company with a Board of Directors headed by an ex-PwC guy would simply duplicate was successful about that app to make a 40k app right? Surely, they would know (because it's Rountree now and they have big-boy forecasting models and market research) that releasing an app at $5.00 a month with almost no functionality, and zero army building capability would be a massively bad idea right?


And before you try to say "That was no mistake" .... Let's also consider the fact that it's the first time (or at least the first time I can recall) of GW EVER actually discounted anything ....



That's not a failure. That's an experiment.

Nothing about that app is pivotal to GW's business strategy. They're seeing if anyone will bite.

That's obvious to anyone who's involved in finance or accounting.

Now show me a mistake that's had capital consequences. Or where all this growth in retail miniature sales has happened.

https://investor.games-workshop.com/


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 15:23:01


Post by: kirotheavenger


Clearly we're just working to different definitions of mistake.
I personally wouldn't think that tanking your stock would be a necessary prerequisite of a mistake.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 15:23:45


Post by: kodos


 techsoldaten wrote:

You have to point out a mistake to say that people have their pants down. Otherwise you are just spouting words.


If you cannot remember any mistakes GW have made you either are pretty new to those things and only started 2 months ago, or just trolling


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tycho wrote:
All we hear is "they don't sell". Then GW makes a good revamp and suddenly they can't keep that army on the shelves. Kind of flys in the face of "they don't sell" .....

this is just some people want to keep up the image of "GW can do nothing wrong" no matter if it flys or not


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 15:36:59


Post by: Tycho


Clearly we're just working to different definitions of mistake.
I personally wouldn't think that tanking your stock would be a necessary prerequisite of a mistake.


Exactly. Making a mistake so catastrophic that it damages your stock is WAY MORE than just "a mistake". Techslodaten seems to want to put "mistakes" only in the category of actually severely damaging the company, and that's certainly a strategy some people take, and it can certainly pay off. IMO it's a little disingenuous to hand wave the app as an "experiment" when they already had a proven model in the AoS app, and I would also argue that it was an irresponsible allocation of resources if it was indeed ACTUALLY an experiment (given there was no need to experiment since they already knew what would work). It's also a little silly to not consider other market factors in GW's bottom line, and I have also, at no point in this discussion claimed they are wholly incompetent and bungling, but it is what it is.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 15:44:17


Post by: techsoldaten


 kodos wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:

You have to point out a mistake to say that people have their pants down. Otherwise you are just spouting words.


If you cannot remember any mistakes GW have made you either are pretty new to those things and only started 2 months ago, or just trolling


Not trolling, please don't ignore the context.

Someone is saying GW has no strategic plan and is ignoring revenue opportunities. It was compared with Apple and the release of iPhones. When asked for evidence, someone brought up a $5 a month cell phone app.

I am saying the GW app is insignificant. The leadership team just doubled the value of the company during a period of lockdowns. Using the app as evidence of incompetence is nitpicking, it's just another piece of surveillance capitalism and having it fail is a net positive to those of us who are opposed to such things.

What actually matters is the thread topic, people are sick of seeing Space Marine releases and would like to see more Xenos releases. The financial successes are important because they suggest people in leadership actually know how to grow a company. Starting from this point may help us demonstrate why Space Marine releases are so frequent relative to other factions.

So, if you want to talk about mistakes, show me something that cost money. I am not aware of any.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 15:45:21


Post by: Gnarlly


I have definitely lost interest in modern 40k (i.e. non APOC, Kill Team, or earlier edition rules), and the amount and frequency of GW's rules releases are a significant factor. Space Marines, being at the forefront of releases the past two years, obviously get everyone's attention, but the sheer volume of additional rules, changes to those rules, faq and errata, and then the resetting to a new edition starting the process over again, has really turned me off.

I came back to 40k during the beginning of 8th edition after many years , and admittedly liked what I saw. But after the 8th Ed. Space Marine codex 2.0 and the various supplements, I got turned off from standard 40k and focused more on Apocalypse and earlier editions of the game. I have recently gotten into AOS, and am really liking how that game is evolving in comparison to the bloated mess of 40k at the moment.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 15:48:04


Post by: Tycho


Someone is saying GW has no strategic plan and is ignoring revenue opportunities. It was compared with Apple and the release of iPhones. When asked for evidence, someone brought up a $5 a month cell phone app.


No one. Literally no one, said they had "no strategic plan." You implied they could not be caught be surprise, and I disagreed and showed several examples where they literally got it wrong. At no point did anyone say "they're fools just launching garbage at the wall to see what sticks" or anything like that. lol

I simply made the point that even large, successful companies can, in fact, get things wrong. I never even implied they were making massive mistakes. Just that can get things wrong occasionally.


So, if you want to talk about mistakes, show me something that cost money. I am not aware of any.


The problem is, you only want to set the parameters at a point in time between a few months after Roundtree started, and now. GW was still a large company with a large market cap under Kirby. Almost all the conditions (NOT ALL, but many) you list were still "things" under Kirby. They made many very bad bottom line mistakes during that era. It could even be said they .... got it wrong on occasion ...

And again - I never actually said "They are incompetent". Just that they are still figuring out certain things, and that this can lead to bad predictions and odd statements like "Xenos don't sell". I never implied the sky was falling and they were going to go out of business because of it.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 15:49:36


Post by: techsoldaten


Tycho wrote:
Someone is saying GW has no strategic plan and is ignoring revenue opportunities. It was compared with Apple and the release of iPhones. When asked for evidence, someone brought up a $5 a month cell phone app.


No one. Literally no one, said they had "no strategic plan." You implied they could not be caught be surprise, and I disagreed and showed several examples where they literally got it wrong. At no point did anyone say "they're fools just launching garbage at the wall to see what sticks" or anything like that. lol

I simply made the point that even large, successful companies can, in fact, get things wrong. I never even implied they were making massive mistakes. Just that can get things wrong occasionally.


Strategic plan means research. Growth is always informed by research.

Again, something someone with a background in accounting or finance would know.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 15:49:44


Post by: wuestenfux


they made every BA/DA/DW/SW player buy 2 books instead of 1, on top of that they made it shortly after all those players bought their PA books, which were being invalidated by the not-codex books. The only way to maximize it even further would have been, if they also released the CA book at the same time with updated points costs and rules for all armies. Including the ones with 9th ed books.


Books like codices and supplements are a major part of GW's sales strategy.

For the player base, this is more an issue.
E.g. BA players now have to spend more than 50 € for codex and supplement, while vanilla Marine players have it better.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 15:53:03


Post by: kodos


 techsoldaten wrote:

So, if you want to talk about mistakes, show me something that cost money. I am not aware of any.

than lets stay with the App
some people who know more about App making pointed out how expensive that one is and that the costs per month GW pays for that thing cannot be made back with the low amount of people paying the fee

and I don't know why you bring in the Lockdown/Pandemic as a negative factor
any game company that was not able to increase their profit during the "get a hobby to stay at home" time has a very bad managment

if anything, the lockdown made it easier for GW and might have covered loses from mistakes that would have made a bigger impact without


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 15:53:12


Post by: Daedalus81


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Clearly we're just working to different definitions of mistake.
I personally wouldn't think that tanking your stock would be a necessary prerequisite of a mistake.


IT Director here.

The App was put on an unworkable deadline. Look at what happened to Cyberpunk 2077.

The App had a window they wanted it to hit to make an impact and it didn't pan out. The initial price is likely a poor calculation on their part based solely around recovering the likely large costs incurred by the project. The thing people should be noticing is that someone has enough sway to both put it into a beta and not charge customers and then reduce the price.

I don't think they intended a price switch-a-roo.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 15:57:45


Post by: kodos


 techsoldaten wrote:

Strategic plan means research. Growth is always informed by research.


no and no
you can have a plan without research, question is just how well it will work
and "always" is a very strong word here and growth can be achieved in many ways not necessarily related to reseach


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 15:59:20


Post by: Tycho


Strategic plan means research. Growth is always informed by research.

Again, something someone with a background in accounting or finance would know.


You can have growth and still get things wrong. That's all I've been saying. lol

In your world, once something is road-mapped, that's it? Every part of it will be 100% correct with no mistakes!? That's stupid impressive if so.

If you have a defacto monopoly, you can have major growth despite getting in your own way. Again, I never claimed they were making crazy mistakes. Just that they are probably getting certain things wrong due to lingering out-dated practices. I mean, history has shown, that if you get something "right" enough, your other mistakes won't hurt you as badly (like that point in time where Space Marine sales alone were almost single handedly funding production of Warhammer Fantasy), it doesn't change the fact that you could be doing even better. It also doesn't change the fact that you could be wrong about some things. Or have a slightly knackered view of them. IE - Saying Xenos don't sell, when you've largely ignored them for years on end, and missing the possibility that they aren't selling because half your customers now have kids who are significantly younger than a good portion of the model line ...

The initial price is likely a poor calculation on their part ...


Cyberpunk's issues have nothing to do with the ultimate deadline. They started work on it a LOOOOONG time ago. It was ... other things that will likely surface eventually. But I digress.

This is what I was getting at. Knowing what a "successful GW app should look like", and knowing that what they had was pretty darn far from that, it was a an obvious miscalculation to price it at $5 ....


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 16:12:00


Post by: techsoldaten


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Clearly we're just working to different definitions of mistake.
I personally wouldn't think that tanking your stock would be a necessary prerequisite of a mistake.


IT Director here.

The App was put on an unworkable deadline. Look at what happened to Cyberpunk 2077.

The App had a window they wanted it to hit to make an impact and it didn't pan out. The initial price is likely a poor calculation on their part based solely around recovering the likely large costs incurred by the project. The thing people should be noticing is that someone has enough sway to both put it into a beta and not charge customers and then reduce the price.

I don't think they intended a price switch-a-roo.

Given the quality of the app, I doubt there was a significant investment in development.

The big thing the app does is tie real world purchases of books to specific consumers. It's a form of market research, they want to know more about the people who buy their products - and get people to pay them to do it. You can learn a lot about people once you start gathering information from their phones, like what models they collect, how often they visit stores, what Codexes they actually read, etc.

But you can tell a little bit about how they spent their money based on the issues end users have been having with it. This wasn't some user-centric design process, it's hardly usable.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 16:17:39


Post by: Tycho


But you can tell a little bit about how they spent their money based on the issues end users have been having with it. This wasn't some user-centric design process, it's hardly usable.


Right. It's almost like they didn't use modern design principles to get this done ... almost like there are still some things they have yet to really figure out ... That's all I'm saying.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 16:21:14


Post by: Asherian Command


mrFickle wrote:
The releases for AOS and the other games in the AOS do appear to be more balanced. My other impression is that the fantasy sculpts are more interesting and varied. Some of the new 40K sculpts are brilliant but they are largely more power armour which can only be so varied. The fantasy setting of AOS seems to spark the imagination in the designers more than for 40K.

Mind you I was looking at the FW website and the approach they’ve taken to chaos marines blows GW out the water especially when looking at chaos demons and CSM demon engines.

By all rights eldar should have the most fantastic sculpts of 40K. I really think if GW invested more in these armies people would buy the minis


Yes. I mean they could probably see how the Aelves in AOS are selling pretty well. The Eldar just need better and more pretty sclupts and I think its because they are adhereing too much to their design and 40k's 'gothic' aesthetic.

AOS will continue to do well and become better because AOS's systems are easier, and its less competitive. 40k has an issue overall of its rules and well the shooting face. Along with its entire model line being only space marines or diet space marines. There is a ton of issues and there will continue to be because of this hyper focus on space marines is just killing it for me, I never want to buy another 40k kit because how creatively bankrupt it is.

I want to see more with 40k but its just hampered by primarchs and space marines thats all we ever see from the setting. 40k is Space Marines thats it.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 16:33:03


Post by: Luke_Prowler


You know, I'd personally like to see some actual numbers when it comes to these claims. The idea that the marine release domination is due to A) other armies not even able to pull their own weight and marines being needed to make up for them and B) that putting even equal representation of non-marine releases will somehow result in GW collapsing, is pretty presumptuous. I cannot deny that Marines are popular, but I highly doubt it's the only thing holding GW up and I'd like to see something more than just guesstimation based on a unspecific statement.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 16:55:05


Post by: Aenar


I keep hearing about how AoS is better and will grow to heavens but how come 40K is 5x bigger than AoS right now? (figure given by Reece on a FLG podcast a couple of weeks back)

As for marines and their central position in 40K: GW prints money with them. They release a single kit, they give it decent-to-good rules, it sells for millions of £. Rinse and repeat.
What worries me is that the growth we've seen over the past few years (stock price, revenues, bottom line profits, ...) has been fueled by a once-in-a-generation revamp of their most popular model range (SM) and therefore it looks kinda unsustainable to me.
You can't release uber-primaris now (that are better than current ones rules wise, in order for them to sell even more) because the customers would be angry about it.
You can't even expect to forever be in a global pandemic that incentivizes nerds to spend even more money on the hobby.
But shareholders kinda expect current growth rates to be maintained and even surpassed year after year...


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 16:55:10


Post by: techsoldaten


Tycho wrote:
Strategic plan means research. Growth is always informed by research.

Again, something someone with a background in accounting or finance would know.


You can have growth and still get things wrong. That's all I've been saying. lol

In your world, once something is road-mapped, that's it? Every part of it will be 100% correct with no mistakes!? That's stupid impressive if so.


The only thing I've been saying is growth like that doesn't happen by accident or in a vaccum. Someone knows what they are doing and it's probably not through intuition alone.

Your evidence of mistakes is a mobile app. Show me something that lead to significant defections from the player base, like what happened at the start of 7th edition. Show me something that left the door open for other companies to grow, I'm only aware of other companies going out of business during GW's ascent. Show me something related to hobby supplies, where they faceplanted trying to introduce a new line of paints.

You said you've worked for Deloitte. This should be easy for anyone who's familiar with the business practices of the Big Four.

Sure, I'm certain GW tried a few things that did not work out. I'm equally certain the consequences are insignificant when viewed in terms of what they've been able to achieve. Companies have to try things in order to grow new product lines, no organization executes perfectly 100% of the time. A mistake would be not trying new things or trying to adapt to changes in the market.

But it does not appear leadership has done anything 'wrong' in terms of growing the company, and this probably directly relates to the question of why there are so many Space Marine releases and so few Xenos releases. I've suggested it has to do with attracting new players to the game, and you keep talking about that mobile app...

Tycho wrote:
If you have a defacto monopoly, you can have major growth despite getting in your own way. Again, I never claimed they were making crazy mistakes. Just that they are probably getting certain things wrong due to lingering out-dated practices. I mean, history has shown, that if you get something "right" enough, your other mistakes won't hurt you as badly (like that point in time where Space Marine sales alone were almost single handedly funding production of Warhammer Fantasy), it doesn't change the fact that you could be doing even better. It also doesn't change the fact that you could be wrong about some things. Or have a slightly knackered view of them. IE - Saying Xenos don't sell, when you've largely ignored them for years on end, and missing the possibility that they aren't selling because half your customers now have kids who are significantly younger than a good portion of the model line ...


'Crazy mistakes.'

GW, historically, has made many crazy mistakes. Those are worth talking about, the contrast between Kirby-era GW and Roundtree-era GW is night and day. It's not the same company.

Part of the disconnect here is you're talking about issues with design and I'm talking about corporate performance. If it's so important to you, I'll happily agree that the line is old and GW could enjoy marginal near term increases in sales by refreshing some of the Xenos models. You can talk all you want about the design decisions made under Kirby and how Roundtree has to live with them. Done.

Now you tell me why GW hasn't already refreshed the lines. Corporate performance suggests the current leadership team does not leave money on the table. It also suggests they have an outstanding product-market fit, not just with models, but also with licensing their IP. I have suggested GW does not refresh the lines to avoid the parasitic effects of upstaging the faction that brings people into the game, and there's probably more long-term value in keeping Space Marines fresh and other factions a little dated.

If you're going to say it's just a simple mistake and they would be making more money if they did it, help me understand what you understand that Roundtree doesn't. Like, what are the consequences of this tendency towards mistakes you keep talking about? Is GW only worth $4.6B when it could be worth $6.2 (i.e. Mattel?) Would the player base be double in size? Is it something about the demographics, like would there be a more inclusive community if there was a new Guardian boxed set? I don't need exact quantitive analysis, just ballpark it for me.

Given all the other things they've been selling the last few years, I just don't see GW ignoring the preferences of players unless there's a sound reason to. That's actually what I'm asking for, explain to me what the consequences are. If the mistake is that they've failed to satisfy a design preference that leads to some people leaving the game, but otherwise does not affect the overall growth trajectory of the company - there's lots of other ways for those people to spend their money. I don't think GW is oblivious to the cost compared to the benefits of sticking to the current course.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 16:59:48


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Aenar wrote:
I keep hearing about how AoS is better and will grow to heavens but how come 40K is 5x bigger than AoS right now? (figure given by Reece on a FLG podcast a couple of weeks back)



Same reason than why GW is the biggest name in the wargaming world... Inertia.

GW is in an amazing spot since their brand is so widely recognized all over because of how old they are.
Stores are more likely to stock 40k since its the biggest seller, which means that players are more likely to get into 40k than other wargames because its the one stores actually have without needing special orders.

There are tons of much better wargames than 40k but sadly, a new player would (usually) rather start playing the game with huge support and community than the smaller games, even if the rules are much more solid.

GW can afford to make mistakes that alienates players because their whole brand wont really be tainted because a couple eldar players aren't getting updated minis. And i say this as a pointy eared player.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 17:01:03


Post by: Daedalus81


 techsoldaten wrote:

Given the quality of the app, I doubt there was a significant investment in development.

The big thing the app does is tie real world purchases of books to specific consumers. It's a form of market research, they want to know more about the people who buy their products - and get people to pay them to do it. You can learn a lot about people once you start gathering information from their phones, like what models they collect, how often they visit stores, what Codexes they actually read, etc.

But you can tell a little bit about how they spent their money based on the issues end users have been having with it. This wasn't some user-centric design process, it's hardly usable.


Given the quality of Cyberpunk what do you think the dev costs were there?

Things get expensive quick. I also doubt GW did this in-house.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 17:12:21


Post by: techsoldaten


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:

Given the quality of the app, I doubt there was a significant investment in development.

The big thing the app does is tie real world purchases of books to specific consumers. It's a form of market research, they want to know more about the people who buy their products - and get people to pay them to do it. You can learn a lot about people once you start gathering information from their phones, like what models they collect, how often they visit stores, what Codexes they actually read, etc.

But you can tell a little bit about how they spent their money based on the issues end users have been having with it. This wasn't some user-centric design process, it's hardly usable.


Given the quality of Cyberpunk what do you think the dev costs were there?

Things get expensive quick. I also doubt GW did this in-house.


Cyberpunk and the 40k app are apples to oranges. One is entertainment looking to push the edge, one is surveillance capitalism. But I get your point about escalating costs.

I suspect the app was built by a company called Thoughtbot. I know they were speaking with GW, had meetings with Thoughtbot a couple years ago and saw what looked like a pitchdeck for GW. That, and the app resembles early prototypes they showed me for wireframing their stuff.

There's this whole industry of technology consultants that will build you a mobile app with every kind of invasive technology imaginable baked in. Whoever built it, the focus is on tracking consumers, not making it more efficient to play the game. I don't see evidence serious resources were devoted to user experience, it just looks like some generic inventory drill down app with some pictures stuck in. My thumb got tired the first time I used it, trying to go through all the data sheets.

Given the value of the data that thing is collecting, GW should be paying you to put that app on your phone. It's icky.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 17:26:26


Post by: Asherian Command


 Aenar wrote:
I keep hearing about how AoS is better and will grow to heavens but how come 40K is 5x bigger than AoS right now? (figure given by Reece on a FLG podcast a couple of weeks back)



Heres the thing, AOS is growing, and does not have as wide marketability that 40k currently does, but we are starting to see a shift. It will start to get more popular and will increase in sales. I have no doubt that AOS will become more popular as time goes on. And Space Marine 40k will continue to print money.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 17:42:24


Post by: Daedalus81


 techsoldaten wrote:


I suspect the app was built by a company called Thoughtbot. I know they were speaking with GW, had meetings with Thoughtbot a couple years ago and saw what looked like a pitchdeck for GW. That, and the app resembles early prototypes they showed me for wireframing their stuff.

There's this whole industry of technology consultants that will build you a mobile app with every kind of invasive technology imaginable baked in. Whoever built it, the focus is on tracking consumers, not making it more efficient to play the game. I don't see evidence serious resources were devoted to user experience, it just looks like some generic inventory drill down app with some pictures stuck in. My thumb got tired the first time I used it, trying to go through all the data sheets.

Given the value of the data that thing is collecting, GW should be paying you to put that app on your phone. It's icky.



Yeaaa....that's pretty cynical considering the effort they're still putting into it as well as the app permissions that consist of...network access.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 17:46:10


Post by: Karol


 Daedalus81 wrote:

Given the quality of Cyberpunk what do you think the dev costs were there?

Things get expensive quick. I also doubt GW did this in-house.

cyberpunk is a wonderful example of what happens, when you decide that you will crunch the game in to its final form in the last years, decide that it is going to be forward and backwards compatible for xboxs/ps, and work for PC. And then covid strikes and you suddenly have zero control over what people are doing in some countries, because unlike some countries you can't just whip people in to working non stop durning a pandemic in western countries.

Which by the way is no excuse for making a not working game. They should have either decided to make it PC new gen consol only, or make the next gen transfer later. Which considering how hard it still is to get those new consols looks like they really shot themself in both feet trying to make a game work on those platforms.

GW app on the other hand is just a data gathering tool. It would have been nice, if it was at least as bit friendly as the AoS one. A friend showed me his inifnity army builder, and it is free, and it works without adds and doesn't crash most phones.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 17:49:00


Post by: Daedalus81


Karol wrote:
GW app on the other hand is just a data gathering tool. It would have been nice, if it was at least as bit friendly as the AoS one. A friend showed me his inifnity army builder, and it is free, and it works without adds and doesn't crash most phones.


What data is it gathering?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 17:53:46


Post by: techsoldaten


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:


I suspect the app was built by a company called Thoughtbot. I know they were speaking with GW, had meetings with Thoughtbot a couple years ago and saw what looked like a pitchdeck for GW. That, and the app resembles early prototypes they showed me for wireframing their stuff.

There's this whole industry of technology consultants that will build you a mobile app with every kind of invasive technology imaginable baked in. Whoever built it, the focus is on tracking consumers, not making it more efficient to play the game. I don't see evidence serious resources were devoted to user experience, it just looks like some generic inventory drill down app with some pictures stuck in. My thumb got tired the first time I used it, trying to go through all the data sheets.

Given the value of the data that thing is collecting, GW should be paying you to put that app on your phone. It's icky.



Yeaaa....that's pretty cynical considering the effort they're still putting into it as well as the app permissions that consist of...network access.

Will gladly admit to cynicism in the mobile space.

We know for a fact the GW app is collecting ids from physical purchases tied to specific consumers.

If they are not collecting geolocation, usage statistics, data about other apps running on the phone, etc, that means one of three things.

- They are dumb and working with the wrong vendor.

- They are cheap and took the low cost option.

- They are waiting until there's a large enough user base and then will start collecting these metrics.

My money is on 3.

When was the last time an app updated on your iPhone / Android device and asked you for additional permissions? Thinking they never change?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 18:25:54


Post by: Daedalus81


Color me unconcerned if GW knows what kits I bought considering they don't need the app to do that and the app gives them no real additional insight to my behavior.

No trackers listed on it:
https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/com.gamesworkshop.warhammer40k/latest/

And for those unfamiliar - this is what a big mobile game looks like:
https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/com.hcg.cok.gp/latest/

I will go with option #4 - they actually wanted to give a value-add product that also provides a revenue stream and bungled it, because the requirements didn't translate to the developers well.

Related:
Spoiler:






Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 18:44:15


Post by: PenitentJake


Like a lot of folks, I'm hoping that GW drops some serious development into non-marines this edition. They did last edition- Custodes were invented as a faction, GSC and Admech got big release waves, and sisters... Wow, the Sisters! So maybe what we're seeing is timing; marines first to pad out the war chest. CWE big release on the way, so they do a small first wave DE, big CWE, then second release for DE soon?

I don't know- just hoping.

The other thing that seems to be missing from the discussion is the overall impact of a short term gain at the increase of a longer term loss.

The Primaris glut has been great for the bottom line over the past few years, sure. But unless the antagonists get some upscaling, the game can't continue- no one wants a game where one team is excellent and all other teams get neither rule nor model support. Not even the people on the winning team want that- I've seen SM players turned off by their own release schedule!

So where the R&D comes in is determining the breaking point, and acting to prevent the breaking point from occurring.

Some folks have a lesser tolerance, and as the thread title implies, at least some of us are beginning to vote with our feet, which means the time to act is approaching. Also, the impact of being under-supported will linger longer for some people than others. One person in the thread has already said they are kinda done, no matter what GW does from here on in. That's a hardline position, and I'd say it's an outlier; I think the more common response will be "I'm done... Until GW does something for my faction."

The people in the former group are lost profits. The people in the later group do not represent lost profits... They are deferred profits.

And everyone will reach a breaking point eventually. If GW can turn their experience around before they get there, the company will be continue to grow at something close to its current rate. If not, the company will still survive... But they will see things slow down.

I played pretty consistently from 1989- 2009. But two of my favourite armies- GSC and Sisters were pretty much DOA- they former was hard squatted in the 90's and the later soft squatted in the mid to late aughts. And it made me quit playing (though I didn't get rid of my collection either- just ignored the entire company, no White Dwarf, no websites, no forums, no games and no purchases).

One day, I walked by a GW store and saw the GSC 7th ed dex on the shelf. I bought it that day, without a second thought. When they announced a new edition 2 months later, it might have killed my participation again, but they also announced plastic Sisters and even carved out a role for them in the transition story between editions.

Since my return to the hobby, I've probably put in $2-3k. Insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but how many people like me are there?

On a side note: 9th also almost took me out again. I believe that edition resets are the worst part of any game; they've made me quit D&D, all of the World of Darkness games, and countless others. In the end, I did the mental gymnastics and stayed in the game. This time, not for a faction: I've got enough GSC and Sisters resources and models that I could have played 8th for the rest of my life.

What kept me around for 9th was Crusade, and the impact Crusade content will have on my enjoyment of the models I already own. If GW goes to a 10th edition- I should say when, not if- it is unlikely I will follow. 8th gave me the models I want, 9th gave me the rules. What more do I need?

So they'll have to work to keep me. I'll buy:

Sisters
GSC
DE
CSM
Daemons
Inquisition/ Agents

I'd invest in Guard and CWE, but only if they get range refreshes. I'll buy SoS when they can fight as a standalone army- even if it's just a small one (an HQ, Troop, and a single bespoke vehicle kit would be enough for me). I'd also buy Kroot- not Tau, Kroot.

I did cave in and start a small Death Watch force so that I could use the marines I already had, but that force won't grow much. It's never going to be a full army- it's there to support the Imperium, not to fight on its own. I'm already

I know I'm not a typical player, especially not here on Dakka. But I'm sure there are at least some players out there with similar thoughts and experiences. I'm preparing for 9th to be my final edition. Even if they carry Crusade into 10th, there's not much they could do to improve it enough that I'd rebuy all the dexes again.



Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 19:10:20


Post by: the_scotsman


I'm lost profits at this point, at least for craftworld eldar.

I've got rigged up 3d models of most of the aspects at this point that I can put in any pose I want, and I've got a printer that can make them for 50c a miniature. If the howling banshees are anything to go off of, that's a cool 95% discount. If thoughout all 9 months of quarantine, I'd gotten some kind of model release for any of my unholy number of 40k armies, I most likely would have spend 250 bucks on that release instead of on my printer.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 19:19:22


Post by: VladimirHerzog


the_scotsman wrote:
I'm lost profits at this point, at least for craftworld eldar.

I've got rigged up 3d models of most of the aspects at this point that I can put in any pose I want, and I've got a printer that can make them for 50c a miniature. If the howling banshees are anything to go off of, that's a cool 95% discount. If thoughout all 9 months of quarantine, I'd gotten some kind of model release for any of my unholy number of 40k armies, I most likely would have spend 250 bucks on that release instead of on my printer.



yep, Artel W is an even easier alternative than getting into 3d printing. Tons of eldar players are jumping on their minis instead of giving GW a cent. And i know many other source their minis from "alternative" sellers for a fraction of what GW would ask for their gakky finecast or overpriced Banshees/Incubi.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 19:24:27


Post by: the_scotsman


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
I'm lost profits at this point, at least for craftworld eldar.

I've got rigged up 3d models of most of the aspects at this point that I can put in any pose I want, and I've got a printer that can make them for 50c a miniature. If the howling banshees are anything to go off of, that's a cool 95% discount. If thoughout all 9 months of quarantine, I'd gotten some kind of model release for any of my unholy number of 40k armies, I most likely would have spend 250 bucks on that release instead of on my printer.



yep, Artel W is an even easier alternative than getting into 3d printing. Tons of eldar players are jumping on their minis instead of giving GW a cent. And i know many other source their minis from "alternative" sellers for a fraction of what GW would ask for their gakky finecast or overpriced Banshees/Incubi.


I mean, I guess they're a little bit cheaper, but honestly I'd just go for whatever is more aesthetically pleasing. 50$ for 6 vs 55$ for 5 isn't that much of a price differential.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 19:27:42


Post by: Insectum7


the_scotsman wrote:
I'm lost profits at this point, at least for craftworld eldar.

I've got rigged up 3d models of most of the aspects at this point that I can put in any pose I want, and I've got a printer that can make them for 50c a miniature. If the howling banshees are anything to go off of, that's a cool 95% discount. If thoughout all 9 months of quarantine, I'd gotten some kind of model release for any of my unholy number of 40k armies, I most likely would have spend 250 bucks on that release instead of on my printer.
Good for you, man. That's awesome. You're doing all the sculpting yourself?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 19:40:10


Post by: the_scotsman


 Insectum7 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
I'm lost profits at this point, at least for craftworld eldar.

I've got rigged up 3d models of most of the aspects at this point that I can put in any pose I want, and I've got a printer that can make them for 50c a miniature. If the howling banshees are anything to go off of, that's a cool 95% discount. If thoughout all 9 months of quarantine, I'd gotten some kind of model release for any of my unholy number of 40k armies, I most likely would have spend 250 bucks on that release instead of on my printer.
Good for you, man. That's awesome. You're doing all the sculpting yourself?


God no, I'm not that good - I'm taking T-posed models that some wonderful person has posted up on thingiverse, rigging them up and sculpting some variations into them/increasing the polygon count.

At the end of the day, Eldar armor is relatively simplistic by GW standards, and they are all fairly uniform in terms of squad design. The most complicated thing I've had to do so far is create a hood-up version of my Ranger model, and adding all the extra rigging to his cloak.

So far I've done Dire Avengers, Warp Spiders, Rangers, Swooping Hawks, Dark Reapers, and Shining Spears (OK, so I just put in a rig to pivot the head and one to move the lance arm and I can choose to mirror the models to make them left handed if I want, I'm not getting that fancy with them)


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 19:54:34


Post by: BlackoCatto


I went to my local GW store once on a Sunday trip, deciding to make a day of it as it was over 50 miles away from me. Had a nice Chinese lunch, shopped at a few nice stores and finally got to the GW store. Went immediately saw the half shelf of Guard. Proceeded to not buy any models ask glumly if he had any other regiment that wasn't Cadian. Was told no, looked to the coffee mug and tape measure shelf and took one of each home.



Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 19:57:14


Post by: PenitentJake


 VladimirHerzog wrote:


yep, Artel W is an even easier alternative than getting into 3d printing. Tons of eldar players are jumping on their minis instead of giving GW a cent. And i know many other source their minis from "alternative" sellers for a fraction of what GW would ask for their gakky finecast or overpriced Banshees/Incubi.


Yeah... Came close to pulling the trigger on Artel's Archon substitute already- he's a great Vect stand in. Ditto on Artel's Grotesques. But I'm waiting for all the pre-dex release info before I proceed. Once the dex is in my hand, if there have been no releases for Vect or Grotesques, or announcements that give me hope for a second wave, Artel will get the money GW could have had.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 20:08:02


Post by: Insectum7


 BlackoCatto wrote:
I went to my local GW store once on a Sunday trip, deciding to make a day of it as it was over 50 miles away from me. Had a nice Chinese lunch, shopped at a few nice stores and finally got to the GW store. Went immediately saw the half shelf of Guard. Proceeded to not buy any models ask glumly if he had any other regiment that wasn't Cadian. Was told no, looked to the coffee mug and tape measure shelf and took one of each home.
Lol why'd you buy the tape measure! You'd get better quality for less dough at a hardware store.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 20:27:45


Post by: Eldarsif


 Aenar wrote:
I keep hearing about how AoS is better and will grow to heavens but how come 40K is 5x bigger than AoS right now? (figure given by Reece on a FLG podcast a couple of weeks back)


This is such a weird question.

40k can still sell better even if AoS is a better game. There have been countless better games made but 40k sold better. Good sales is no indication of quality, but more marketability and market saturation.

Second, AoS has grown tremendously from its humble beginning even with the original hatred against it. Will it ever surpass 40k in sales? Doubt it as 40k has several decades of lead time and collections whereas AoS is a very fresh game that faced a lot of opposition initially. If you can't see how the age and market saturation can create difference in scale between the two games then nothing can answer your question.

However, considering the fact that GW is putting quite a bit of work into AoS is telling us that AoS is growing and they see some benefit from growing the product by investing heavily into it.

Again, weird question.



Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 20:30:26


Post by: kirotheavenger


TBH GW's are my favourite tapemeasures for wargaming I have.
I take the sleeves off and they're much more compact than most hardware store versions. I don't need a meaty thing.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 21:52:24


Post by: BlackoCatto


 Insectum7 wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
I went to my local GW store once on a Sunday trip, deciding to make a day of it as it was over 50 miles away from me. Had a nice Chinese lunch, shopped at a few nice stores and finally got to the GW store. Went immediately saw the half shelf of Guard. Proceeded to not buy any models ask glumly if he had any other regiment that wasn't Cadian. Was told no, looked to the coffee mug and tape measure shelf and took one of each home.
Lol why'd you buy the tape measure! You'd get better quality for less dough at a hardware store.


My hardware one if dropped on the table will smash to pieces any miniature under it.... it also also doesn't have a cool aquila.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 21:54:46


Post by: drbored


I'm pretty impressed with the variety of responses and feelings.

There's of course a lot of the off topic tangents, but at the heart of it seems like a consensus: marines have gotten too much.

And a hope: other factions will take the spotlight.

Sadly, that hope has been echoed for a decade now. Even big-selling armies like Guard haven't gotten a decent update since 6th edition. Also, if GW wasn't interested in updating factions that only 5% of people play, then why even bother making Admech or Genestealer Cult? Why bother giving them such significant updates?

At the end of the day, I know much won't change. I know in a year we'll likely get another wave of space marines in another big box set. Half the box will be shiny new space marines that will be mono-pose but will get full kits later on. The other half of the box will be shiny new xenos/chaos models that will be mono-pose and still WONT get separate kits (oblits, venomcrawler, greater possessed??)

It's like many people have said, Space Marines aren't interesting without real threats to face.

As for my own hobby, I'm still plucking away at things. I have a Sisters of Battle army I'm building and painting and I've been chipping away at my Idoneth Deepkin, because those models are incredible.

Let's put it this way. It's like playing a video game that the developers have abandoned. Like City of Heroes. Sure, I could find some discord community and some private servers of people that still play it, but knowing that the game will never receive another update kills motivation to continue playing it. Part of the appeal of something is knowing that it'll keep being supported, because support means community, and community means more players.

Playing factions other than space marines almost feels like that. You just know that the devs aren't going to support them nearly as well, so it kills hype. I know that Sisters of Battle are going to get another update soon, which is great!! But after that, I wouldn't be surprised if Sisters didn't get any meaningful model support for another 5-10 years.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 23:12:25


Post by: vipoid


 BlackoCatto wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
I went to my local GW store once on a Sunday trip, deciding to make a day of it as it was over 50 miles away from me. Had a nice Chinese lunch, shopped at a few nice stores and finally got to the GW store. Went immediately saw the half shelf of Guard. Proceeded to not buy any models ask glumly if he had any other regiment that wasn't Cadian. Was told no, looked to the coffee mug and tape measure shelf and took one of each home.
Lol why'd you buy the tape measure! You'd get better quality for less dough at a hardware store.


My hardware one if dropped on the table will smash to pieces any miniature under it.... it also also doesn't have a cool aquila.


*Looks at my half-ton tape measure of model-obliteration.*

You know, I never considered that.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 23:16:02


Post by: Cronch


I have suggested GW does not refresh the lines to avoid the parasitic effects of upstaging the faction that brings people into the game, and there's probably more long-term value in keeping Space Marines fresh and other factions a little dated.

The biggest issue isn't lost sales, because each individual xenos/non marine playerbase is significantly smaller than the marines, but lack of engagement from the xenos playerbase. Marine players need non-marines to live out the power fantasy GW advertises, if xeno playerbase shrinks too much, or withdraws to their own small circle of players, it'll make marines play against other marines, and it will be less interesting and less satisfying for the marine players, and unsatisfied players don't buy as much as excited customers.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 23:23:02


Post by: Asherian Command


Cronch wrote:
I have suggested GW does not refresh the lines to avoid the parasitic effects of upstaging the faction that brings people into the game, and there's probably more long-term value in keeping Space Marines fresh and other factions a little dated.

The biggest issue isn't lost sales, because each individual xenos/non marine playerbase is significantly smaller than the marines, but lack of engagement from the xenos playerbase. Marine players need non-marines to live out the power fantasy GW advertises, if xeno playerbase shrinks too much, or withdraws to their own small circle of players, it'll make marines play against other marines, and it will be less interesting and less satisfying for the marine players, and unsatisfied players don't buy as much as excited customers.


This is a huge part of marketing and sales, if only one model line exists, and most model lines essentially disappear on the board, people become less invested and will not care as much for the setting. Remember GW needs to have a rabid fanbase to sell more models if they start to lose engagement then they lose that business permanently and the main reason why GW does so well is because of all the factors that go into making 40k what it is now from its design, to its story, to its tabletop, there is also a consideration of Whales. People who buy a lot of models and continue to buy lots of models, if you lose their business that is potentially harmful to the entire strategy GW has, and not engaging players might als harm other players more if there is no engagement for them to partake in.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/23 23:23:14


Post by: Karol


drbored wrote:

It's like many people have said, Space Marines aren't interesting without real threats to face.



Okey, but necron, orks are doing as well as marines right now, harlis, custodes and demons are doing better then majority of marines lists. And on top of that all the different marines sitting around 50/50 win rate can easily play against each other, and they have enough different builds to last a long time. So when is w40k going to be considered okey? When the bottom 3-4 armies become 50/50 win rate. I wouldn't mind, as my dudes are in those 3 armies right now, but I don't think there was never a time in w40k history, where all armies 50/50 win rate or close to it. And from data it seems like 9th, aside for maybe harlequins being too good, is one of the edition with the largest number of armies sitting close to or around 50% win rate. I don't think GW can ever do better then that.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 03:36:08


Post by: drbored


Karol wrote:
drbored wrote:

It's like many people have said, Space Marines aren't interesting without real threats to face.



Okey, but necron, orks are doing as well as marines right now, harlis, custodes and demons are doing better then majority of marines lists. And on top of that all the different marines sitting around 50/50 win rate can easily play against each other, and they have enough different builds to last a long time. So when is w40k going to be considered okey? When the bottom 3-4 armies become 50/50 win rate. I wouldn't mind, as my dudes are in those 3 armies right now, but I don't think there was never a time in w40k history, where all armies 50/50 win rate or close to it. And from data it seems like 9th, aside for maybe harlequins being too good, is one of the edition with the largest number of armies sitting close to or around 50% win rate. I don't think GW can ever do better then that.


You're looking at it from a gaming/meta standpoint.

I'm talking about a model-release standpoint.

If you take your shiny new space marines and go up against a guy whose models, that he just bought, are from 3rd or 5th edition, it's... a complex feeling.

It's an imbalance in releases. Someone goes to the shelves and sees a huge section devoted to space marines. They get to their chosen/favorite faction and they see half a shelf of models. It's kind of disheartening.

Then you turn around and see the AoS side of things where everything is actually pretty even, with some discrepancy for whatever is the new hotness.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 04:26:52


Post by: SemperMortis


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Without NPCs to beat up Marines lose appeal, though. I know my interest in 40k has continued to dwindle with wave after wave of Marines. It's too much.

Since the onset of 8th how many new kits for marines have we got, verses for everyone else?


Last tournament I went to was 50-60% space Marines. We had 2 ork players (myself included), a Nid player, a single tau player, 2 eldar players, 1 Imperial Guard player and than 2-3 Chaos type players. Let me tell you how boring it was to face off against those Marine players. I know that I was excited when I got to play non-power armored opponents and the feeling was mutual throughout most of the event. I know a few people who have "dropped" out of the hobby because its so mono-directional in game play these days. They will bounce back every few months or so to check in but otherwise they are AFK.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 05:27:16


Post by: Insectum7


SemperMortis wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Without NPCs to beat up Marines lose appeal, though. I know my interest in 40k has continued to dwindle with wave after wave of Marines. It's too much.

Since the onset of 8th how many new kits for marines have we got, verses for everyone else?


Last tournament I went to was 50-60% space Marines. We had 2 ork players (myself included), a Nid player, a single tau player, 2 eldar players, 1 Imperial Guard player and than 2-3 Chaos type players. Let me tell you how boring it was to face off against those Marine players. I know that I was excited when I got to play non-power armored opponents and the feeling was mutual throughout most of the event. I know a few people who have "dropped" out of the hobby because its so mono-directional in game play these days. They will bounce back every few months or so to check in but otherwise they are AFK.
My club had this problem a few years back. It was just Marines all the time and it sucked. It's one of the reasons why I started a Tyranid army.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 07:37:27


Post by: tneva82


 techsoldaten wrote:


GW, historically, has made many crazy mistakes. Those are worth talking about, the contrast between Kirby-era GW and Roundtree-era GW is night and day. It's not the same company.


True enough. They upgraded PR department. As all that changed was they learned to market same stuff better.

NuGW is old GW with improved PR to give impression they listen to customers.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 08:24:14


Post by: CEO Kasen


OT: Former Space Marine player, losing interest in 40k thanks to Space Marines. "Does anyone have this feeling?" Yes.

 techsoldaten wrote:
GW, historically, has made many crazy mistakes. Those are worth talking about, the contrast between Kirby-era GW and Roundtree-era GW is night and day. It's not the same company.


Genuinely asking: How crazy are we talking?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 08:31:30


Post by: kirotheavenger


tneva82 wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:


GW, historically, has made many crazy mistakes. Those are worth talking about, the contrast between Kirby-era GW and Roundtree-era GW is night and day. It's not the same company.


True enough. They upgraded PR department. As all that changed was they learned to market same stuff better.

NuGW is old GW with improved PR to give impression they listen to customers.

I totally agree.
I'd even argue that the community good-will generated by them actually marketing their stuff has rather gone to their head. Leading to them taking many liberties with customers, such as the app or general pricing.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 08:49:34


Post by: AngryAngel80


If it wasn't for the pricing, their sales would rocket even higher, especially after this virus stuff. It's the price that shuts down many dreams to play before they can even grow. I know, as I've talked to many could have been players and price is invariably the hurdle too high to get over.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 09:13:04


Post by: Not Online!!!


 AngryAngel80 wrote:
If it wasn't for the pricing, their sales would rocket even higher, especially after this virus stuff. It's the price that shuts down many dreams to play before they can even grow. I know, as I've talked to many could have been players and price is invariably the hurdle too high to get over.

my original plans for R&H were far smaller because i accumulated at the time money for it. And when i had it together the whole range got oop, so i went with a substitute, with superior quality for lower money. it was at that stage i realised just how overpriced GW is for what it offers.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 09:40:08


Post by: techsoldaten


CEO Kasen wrote:OT: Former Space Marine player, losing interest in 40k thanks to Space Marines. "Does anyone have this feeling?" Yes.

 techsoldaten wrote:
GW, historically, has made many crazy mistakes. Those are worth talking about, the contrast between Kirby-era GW and Roundtree-era GW is night and day. It's not the same company.


Genuinely asking: How crazy are we talking?


Easier to characterize mistakes than point to specifics.

- They never treated rules a core function of the business. Books would get written with serious defects and not updated for 4+ years.

- They screwed up early IP licensing deals for video games. It was so bad, Dawn of War almost didn't get made. Licensing and partnerships were downright adversarial.

- They treated their employees like spies to stop leaks. Disaffected a lot of people, drove many of them to Mantic.

- Expensive lawfare that netted them little. Thinking about Chapterhouse, but I know there were other lawsuits.

- The business model was built around hooking teenagers when they are young and letting them walk away when they learn the value of money.

- Finances. Going back to 2014, there were a lot of doors left open for corporate shenanigans. GW's always fit the profile of a standard small cap but I think analysts had a hard time explaining it's success. Which may have been the only thing that kept it from becoming a Mattel brand.

AngryAngel80 wrote:If it wasn't for the pricing, their sales would rocket even higher, especially after this virus stuff. It's the price that shuts down many dreams to play before they can even grow. I know, as I've talked to many could have been players and price is invariably the hurdle too high to get over.


Not sure they want to increase sales at the expense of profit.

GW is famous for paying dividends, which is why the PE Ratio is so important. Shareholders get big checks at the end of the year.

If GW sold twice as many kits for the same amount of profit, investors would start to walk away.

But I agree with the basic point, they could sell more models if they had lower prices.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 12:22:31


Post by: Irbis


Karol wrote:
So when is w40k going to be considered okey? When the bottom 3-4 armies become 50/50 win rate. I wouldn't mind, as my dudes are in those 3 armies right now, but I don't think there was never a time in w40k history, where all armies 50/50 win rate or close to it. And from data it seems like 9th, aside for maybe harlequins being too good, is one of the edition with the largest number of armies sitting close to or around 50% win rate. I don't think GW can ever do better then that.

Try 5th edition. That was literally the only one where you could take book released first (SM/IG) against these released last (GK/Necrons) and have a fair, fun fight (as long as you didn't insist on only bringing the models other army countered). That on top of every army having multiple fun builds and troop swap options. Alas, stupid morons whined the one competent game designer GW had out of company because they didn't like a single line of fluff he wrote and we had to make do with likes of Phil Kelly ever since. Go figure...

SemperMortis wrote:
Last tournament I went to was 50-60% space Marines. We had 2 ork players (myself included), a Nid player, a single tau player, 2 eldar players, 1 Imperial Guard player and than 2-3 Chaos type players. Let me tell you how boring it was to face off against those Marine players. I know that I was excited when I got to play non-power armored opponents and the feeling was mutual throughout most of the event. I know a few people who have "dropped" out of the hobby because its so mono-directional in game play these days. They will bounce back every few months or so to check in but otherwise they are AFK.

Funny, because now you know how SM players felt for nearly a decade facing Taudar nonsense. Scatbikes that, riptidewing this, serpentspam, aspects getting 2+ rerollable BS just for existing, invincible drones, 190 pts knights, that garbage was vastly more broken than anything SM can do in 8th or 9th - but funnily enough SM players admit there is a problem (and there is a ton of people who think kicking squats to 2W was idiotic move) while Taudar players were screeching game is tOtEs BaLaNcEd the whole time and pretending everything is okay because they got to win just for picking the army. 'These days' you say?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 13:03:28


Post by: Galas


In my store we fluctuate. We had tournaments where of the 10 armies present, 8 were loyalist space marines.

The next tournament, people expecting others to bring their space marines, used other armies (Tau in my case), we had literally 0 marines.

But thats something that can happen when people has more than one army. I don't know anyone that ONLY plays marines.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 13:35:58


Post by: Eldarsif


Funny, because now you know how SM players felt for nearly a decade facing Taudar nonsense. Scatbikes that, riptidewing this, serpentspam, aspects getting 2+ rerollable BS just for existing, invincible drones, 190 pts knights, that garbage was vastly more broken than anything SM can do in 8th or 9th - but funnily enough SM players admit there is a problem (and there is a ton of people who think kicking squats to 2W was idiotic move) while Taudar players were screeching game is tOtEs BaLaNcEd the whole time and pretending everything is okay because they got to win just for picking the army. 'These days' you say?


The issue with Marines is everybody has them so when Space Marines are really good you will see a larger skew in the gaming groups as a lot of people can field Space Marines. When a smaller faction is really good you won't see a greater proliferation of them on a local level. I mean, I have played Dark Angels a handful of times in my life but I still have about 15.000 points worth of them because Space Marines are everywhere and in every box(and I am lazy at selling stuff, but that's another discussion).

Currently participating in a tourney next weekend and considering early registration I am about to engage with 70-80% Space Marine player base. Can't say I am excited about it. Even our resident Tau/GSC player is bringing Space Marines. I never experienced this type of skew in any other edition.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 13:54:40


Post by: Amishprn86


As a DE player, i just want 3-4 more HQ's, thats it, literally thats all I want.

1 Vect: Everyone else got their big baddy, I want mine
2 Baron: A cool unique HQ that everyone loved and added fun to the army
3 HQ with Fly: So I don't have to foot slug all over and feel fast, also Venoms and Raiders are 5 and 10 mans, adding a HQ sucks and doesn't feel right most the time (Bike, wings, skyboard)
4 Merch HQ: Optional one like a Mandrake, Incubi, Scourge, etc.. either any of them, just something.

Dracons, Ancients, etc.. can be with the same models we have now.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 13:54:57


Post by: VladimirHerzog


the_scotsman wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
I'm lost profits at this point, at least for craftworld eldar.

I've got rigged up 3d models of most of the aspects at this point that I can put in any pose I want, and I've got a printer that can make them for 50c a miniature. If the howling banshees are anything to go off of, that's a cool 95% discount. If thoughout all 9 months of quarantine, I'd gotten some kind of model release for any of my unholy number of 40k armies, I most likely would have spend 250 bucks on that release instead of on my printer.



yep, Artel W is an even easier alternative than getting into 3d printing. Tons of eldar players are jumping on their minis instead of giving GW a cent. And i know many other source their minis from "alternative" sellers for a fraction of what GW would ask for their gakky finecast or overpriced Banshees/Incubi.


I mean, I guess they're a little bit cheaper, but honestly I'd just go for whatever is more aesthetically pleasing. 50$ for 6 vs 55$ for 5 isn't that much of a price differential.


the price doesn't bother me, its the quality of the sculpts. I'd gladly pay 50$ for 6 dynamic and modern warp spiders rather than 40$ for 5 copypasted finecast ones.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 13:57:10


Post by: Nurglitch


So what you're saying is that we should enjoy Space Marines before the super-powered Tyranid codex is released!


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 14:10:11


Post by: the_scotsman


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
I'm lost profits at this point, at least for craftworld eldar.

I've got rigged up 3d models of most of the aspects at this point that I can put in any pose I want, and I've got a printer that can make them for 50c a miniature. If the howling banshees are anything to go off of, that's a cool 95% discount. If thoughout all 9 months of quarantine, I'd gotten some kind of model release for any of my unholy number of 40k armies, I most likely would have spend 250 bucks on that release instead of on my printer.



yep, Artel W is an even easier alternative than getting into 3d printing. Tons of eldar players are jumping on their minis instead of giving GW a cent. And i know many other source their minis from "alternative" sellers for a fraction of what GW would ask for their gakky finecast or overpriced Banshees/Incubi.


I mean, I guess they're a little bit cheaper, but honestly I'd just go for whatever is more aesthetically pleasing. 50$ for 6 vs 55$ for 5 isn't that much of a price differential.


the price doesn't bother me, its the quality of the sculpts. I'd gladly pay 50$ for 6 dynamic and modern warp spiders rather than 40$ for 5 copypasted finecast ones.


Well yeah, OK, obviously when it comes to the 26 year old warp spiders literally anything is better, I was more comparing the GW banshees to the artel banshees and honestly I'd buy GW. The artel ones design isn't as good IMO.

Actually artel apparently had a different design for banshees that made them look like they were wearing bones and they gave that away for free as an STL file - I have it, it kicks ass and it's what I'm using as my 3d printed file for banshees, if I ever fething needed more banshees good lord I think I have 20 from various editions.

But yeah, artel void spinners >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GW warp spiders. Holy cow. They're the only aspect warrior I could never stomach getting GW, even though I have nearly 2k points of ancient old edition eldar metals. I own the doofy rocket hat dark reapers and I won't field warp spiders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
As a DE player, i just want 3-4 more HQ's, thats it, literally thats all I want.

1 Vect: Everyone else got their big baddy, I want mine
2 Baron: A cool unique HQ that everyone loved and added fun to the army
3 HQ with Fly: So I don't have to foot slug all over and feel fast, also Venoms and Raiders are 5 and 10 mans, adding a HQ sucks and doesn't feel right most the time (Bike, wings, skyboard)
4 Merch HQ: Optional one like a Mandrake, Incubi, Scourge, etc.. either any of them, just something.

Dracons, Ancients, etc.. can be with the same models we have now.


Yes, please, something, anything.

Just for christ's sake make a lieutenant-equivalent for each sub-division that you can make out of the sergeants for the basic troop kit, it's SO fething EASY. And because GW sells units usually in min sizes I don't understand how that wouldn't be a win for them. Like, if I'm going to buy a second reaver squad to build one reaver as a bike archon and then field 1 unit of 5-man reavers, how is that not better for GW than me buying a single box of reavers and a less expensive footslogging archon? Or if I want to use one of my Acothysts as a new, theoretical haemonculus lieutenant-equivalent character, so I buy another box of Wracks and I build a couple of them as vehicle crew (which is an optional thing you can do, it's included as a kit if you want to have a Wrack Venom or Raider gunner you can choose to build one of your wracks with arms to make him a gunner) that's literally just 'GW Gets More of my fething Money.'

Less options means I buy less stuff, GW. I'm not gonna go third party because spoiler alert, a third party sculpt that is good enough quality to compete with an Acothyst from your wracks box is probably going to be MORE EXPENSIVE because its not going to come with FOUR OTHER DUDES I can use in my army!


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 15:02:54


Post by: Karol


Why make you buy a second box of reavers to make one or two characters, or even worse 3, when they can sell a box that costs almost as much as the unit, and by selling it they do not risk that left over models hit the secondary market, making people pay less for models?

They are a monopolist, If they make a rules that are really good or required for the army to work, most people very much are going to buy those things. There is a reason why stuff like oblits and riptides sell out, and melee oblits do not.

In 8th, dark reapers were resin models or recasts. highly sought after. I have my doubts the same was true for something like warp spiders or scorpions.

Attack bikes are so popular right now, that my area run out of resin, because every marine player wanted 6. Although that may have to be linked to the fact that, GW didn't flood our stores with Indomitus boxs. Creating a big shortage of blade guards and eradictors.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Irbis wrote:
Karol wrote:
So when is w40k going to be considered okey? When the bottom 3-4 armies become 50/50 win rate. I wouldn't mind, as my dudes are in those 3 armies right now, but I don't think there was never a time in w40k history, where all armies 50/50 win rate or close to it. And from data it seems like 9th, aside for maybe harlequins being too good, is one of the edition with the largest number of armies sitting close to or around 50% win rate. I don't think GW can ever do better then that.

Try 5th edition. That was literally the only one where you could take book released first (SM/IG) against these released last (GK/Necrons) and have a fair, fun fight (as long as you didn't insist on only bringing the models other army countered). That on top of every army having multiple fun builds and troop swap options. Alas, stupid morons whined the one competent game designer GW had out of company because they didn't like a single line of fluff he wrote and we had to make do with likes of Phil Kelly ever since. Go figure...



I will try that. Although I never saw anyone play older editions around here. I can imagine why people don't want to play 8th now, or maybe why they wanted to play 7th durning 8th ed, but I never saw anyone even ask about prior editions, aside for horror stories about other factions.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 15:23:07


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Karol wrote:
Why make you buy a second box of reavers to make one or two characters, or even worse 3, when they can sell a box that costs almost as much as the unit, and by selling it they do not risk that left over models hit the secondary market, making people pay less for models?


because that would be a customer friendly move to do instead of the current "lawyers decide" no model no rules bs. At least if No model No rules was applied to every army evenly that would be pretty nice, but noooo. We cant have a succubus on jetbike or Lord on bike but Marines can get a captain on bike even if there is no model for it.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 16:06:41


Post by: Stormonu


I think the *typical* 40K gamer has an average 2-year lifespan or so. The first year is filled with ramping up - getting and painting models, learning the game. About six months of happiness, and then a slow decline and disinterest as frustration slowly sets in. At least, that’s been my observation over the years.

Note, I wouldn’t ascribe the forum members of Dakka as “typical”, as I believe most forum members here would be better described as enthusiasts, even though they might have moved away from 40k proper.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 16:38:10


Post by: Nurglitch


Playing Warhammer is a pretty good antidote for wanting to play Warhammer; which is to say that Warhammer looks like it should be so cool to play. There's all this terrain and these models, and you can move them around on the board. Even calling games 'battles' lends an air of excitement and anticipation. The experience is something else. Either games are over in a demoralizing 1-2 turns and all that time setting up seems like it was wasted, or it drags on 6 turns of armies grinding each other down unit by unit. It's never what you hoped it would be, and never as good as you remember it being.

I mean, I keep looking at my armies and thinking maybe I should try a game, but then I remember the sore back from leaning over the table, sore feet from standing, sore throat from talking for hours, and trying to navigate that feeling of disappointment if I win because my dice were just hot, or because my opponent made some small but consequential mistake.

Plus, I've found a kind of methadone for the cravings, so it's not longer like craving a cigarette where I cave and smoking a cigarette makes me feel terrible.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 17:14:06


Post by: Insectum7


Nurglitch wrote:
Playing Warhammer is a pretty good antidote for wanting to play Warhammer; which is to say that Warhammer looks like it should be so cool to play. There's all this terrain and these models, and you can move them around on the board. Even calling games 'battles' lends an air of excitement and anticipation. The experience is something else. Either games are over in a demoralizing 1-2 turns and all that time setting up seems like it was wasted, or it drags on 6 turns of armies grinding each other down unit by unit. It's never what you hoped it would be, and never as good as you remember it being.

I mean, I keep looking at my armies and thinking maybe I should try a game, but then I remember the sore back from leaning over the table, sore feet from standing, sore throat from talking for hours, and trying to navigate that feeling of disappointment if I win because my dice were just hot, or because my opponent made some small but consequential mistake.

Plus, I've found a kind of methadone for the cravings, so it's not longer like craving a cigarette where I cave and smoking a cigarette makes me feel terrible.
I understand where this is coming from but I still believe in the like-minded-people part of it to navigate out of those woes. Smaller battles with a lot more terrain and more forgiving armies is always a good starting point.

But yes, clubhammer with the wrong crowd and bad boards can ruin the experience fast.

Edit: and fighting against nothing but space marines.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 17:20:35


Post by: Yarium


Nurglitch wrote:
Playing Warhammer is a pretty good antidote for wanting to play Warhammer


For some of us, playing Warhammer is just giving more drugs to a drug addict! The more I play, the more games I want to get in! Losing a match gives me a rush in that I spend the next week or two heavily reviewing my list and play mistakes, and I become anxious to "fix" them. Just watched a video recently about physics, and the guy giving the presentation was talking about how much physicists hate doing this one kind of problem, but then he talks with mathematicians that are working on the same problem because they find it FUN. What turns one person off, turns another person on!


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 17:33:36


Post by: Da Boss


For sure. It certainly looks to me like the game is in very good health. It's booming, even. And that's great. I like that people are having a great time with it. It's sort of moved away from what I like in a game, which does make me a little sad, but you can't deny that it's successful and popular.

I have similar feelings about the background, it's moved away from what I like, but the new stuff I don't like is wildly popular.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 17:47:17


Post by: Nurglitch


Insectum7 wrote:But yes, clubhammer with the wrong crowd and bad boards can ruin the experience fast.

Edit: and fighting against nothing but space marines.

Your mileage may vary I guess. The local crowd is fantastic, and the boards are absolutely superb since one organizer makes the most incredible terrain out of Hearst Arts blocks cast in dental plastic. Fantastic range of armies, though it may have changed.

Yarium wrote:For some of us, playing Warhammer is just giving more drugs to a drug addict! The more I play, the more games I want to get in! Losing a match gives me a rush in that I spend the next week or two heavily reviewing my list and play mistakes, and I become anxious to "fix" them. Just watched a video recently about physics, and the guy giving the presentation was talking about how much physicists hate doing this one kind of problem, but then he talks with mathematicians that are working on the same problem because they find it FUN. What turns one person off, turns another person on!

Oh, absolutely, I needed Warhammer in my life for a few years because playing and preparing to play just kept me level. I mentioned 'methadone' and smoking on purpose though, as I've found something that scratches my Warhammer itch without all the Warhammer hassle. I think the problem is when people want something out of Warhammer that's not there and will never be there, while people who enjoy it for what it is will keep enjoying it. In my case I think it's because I developed a game designed to appeal to my own specific tastes, and it's hard to go back. In the meantime it's interesting to read how it's working out for the rest of you.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 21:05:49


Post by: Daedalus81


 AngryAngel80 wrote:
If it wasn't for the pricing, their sales would rocket even higher, especially after this virus stuff. It's the price that shuts down many dreams to play before they can even grow. I know, as I've talked to many could have been players and price is invariably the hurdle too high to get over.


Most people have a range of dollars they'll spend on some sort of schedule. Say that person will still spend $100 and pretend it costs GW $10 to make a kit that they sell for $50. They can buy two of those. Then GW drops the price to $33, so they buy 3 of them. GW got zero additional revenue, but paid $30 in costs instead of $20. Some people may not even spend on the third kit - they may just be happy to buy two and save money.

Then consider than an FLGS gets 50% meaning GW gets $16 and pays $10. The majority of their sales are Trade. Such price drops affect trade account margins as well and you may well see the 15% discounts diminish as a consequence.

The end result is GW makes no additional revenue by dropping prices. There's a breakpoint where they do lose money by increasing prices, but they're not there yet, I think.

There are a fair number of avenues to get into the hobby without a massive outlay. Not everyone has to have everything right now. I know I didn't when I started.





Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 21:54:51


Post by: SemperMortis


 Irbis wrote:


SemperMortis wrote:
Last tournament I went to was 50-60% space Marines. We had 2 ork players (myself included), a Nid player, a single tau player, 2 eldar players, 1 Imperial Guard player and than 2-3 Chaos type players. Let me tell you how boring it was to face off against those Marine players. I know that I was excited when I got to play non-power armored opponents and the feeling was mutual throughout most of the event. I know a few people who have "dropped" out of the hobby because its so mono-directional in game play these days. They will bounce back every few months or so to check in but otherwise they are AFK.

Funny, because now you know how SM players felt for nearly a decade facing Taudar nonsense. Scatbikes that, riptidewing this, serpentspam, aspects getting 2+ rerollable BS just for existing, invincible drones, 190 pts knights, that garbage was vastly more broken than anything SM can do in 8th or 9th - but funnily enough SM players admit there is a problem (and there is a ton of people who think kicking squats to 2W was idiotic move) while Taudar players were screeching game is tOtEs BaLaNcEd the whole time and pretending everything is okay because they got to win just for picking the army. 'These days' you say?


A decade you say. I mean, you could easily make an argument that Eldar were overpowered from 5th to mid 8th and I would agree with you, But scatbikes were only ever oppressively good in 7th, same with riptide wing, serpeantspam died before that....So really you are complaining about 7th in general, which again, i agree with, but its a bit hyperbolic to say a decade. 7th lasted like 3 years and during that time frame SM's were one of the top 3 armies in the game with their demi-company free razorback spam.
During that same time frame I was playing my orkz still. Reasonably sure we were in a neck and neck race for worst codex of 7th, so trust me when I say I understand the feeling of walking into a game knowing you are at a disadvantage. Also, 8th edition Ironhands nonsense and early gunline girlyman were a hell of a lot more oppressive than triptides or scatbikes, but that is my opinion.

As far as your second point...umm, no. I don't know when you are on Dakka, but we have had a steady line of SM defenders coming to defend everything Space Marine regardless of how utterly broken it is. The guy in my signature line is one of them, he even went as far as to say that double shooting aggressors weren't that good People were defending eradicators as being balanced by pointing out that attack bikes and melta devs were almost as good LMAO. I can keep going bud but we had dozens of pages of SM defenders rushing in to defend whatever the current OP marine unit was.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 22:25:27


Post by: PenitentJake


 Daedalus81 wrote:


Most people have a range of dollars they'll spend on some sort of schedule. Say that person will still spend $100 and pretend it costs GW $10 to make a kit that they sell for $50. They can buy two of those. Then GW drops the price to $33, so they buy 3 of them. GW got zero additional revenue, but paid $30 in costs instead of $20. Some people may not even spend on the third kit - they may just be happy to buy two and save money.


One way of looking at it.

Here's another: think about all the people who don't deal with GW at all because of costs. If dropping your prices 50% gets you three or four times as many players who will stick with you for life, how much is that worth?

It isn't about how much each person spends (or at least it doesn't have to be); it can be about how many people spend any money at all.

Look at the new KT box. Many are complaining about the price, since the box only includes 12 models and very weak terrain. It's sales, from what I can tell by reading forums, are likely to disappoint GW. But if it was priced comparably with the Elite starter box, they wouldn't be able to keep it in stock. I'd buy one AND an Elite box, because that would give me enough Crons to field them. And I'd need a Necron dex on top of that.

But now, instead GW gets whatever they charge for heavy Intercessor from me instead. Likely $70 CAD instead of $290.



Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 22:32:54


Post by: AngryAngel80


Not Online!!! wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
If it wasn't for the pricing, their sales would rocket even higher, especially after this virus stuff. It's the price that shuts down many dreams to play before they can even grow. I know, as I've talked to many could have been players and price is invariably the hurdle too high to get over.

my original plans for R&H were far smaller because i accumulated at the time money for it. And when i had it together the whole range got oop, so i went with a substitute, with superior quality for lower money. it was at that stage i realised just how overpriced GW is for what it offers.


My point in case, however as you're on here as I am I'd say we represent a rather hard core center for GW and even many of us find the pricing just frustrating. Not just for me or my wants but I couldn't imagine starting a guard army from scratch these days, I wouldn't. It would cost way too much. However if they think the hardcore players will be around for ever, perhaps they need to realize time is an issue. They will need to eventually court new players but they will not with this ever rising tide of cost barrier to entry, what I've seen anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Stormonu wrote:
I think the *typical* 40K gamer has an average 2-year lifespan or so. The first year is filled with ramping up - getting and painting models, learning the game. About six months of happiness, and then a slow decline and disinterest as frustration slowly sets in. At least, that’s been my observation over the years.

Note, I wouldn’t ascribe the forum members of Dakka as “typical”, as I believe most forum members here would be better described as enthusiasts, even though they might have moved away from 40k proper.


I've seen the same. I try and keep people positive in my local area but new players do grow disenchanted when what they felt would be balanced and fair as imbalanced and uncaring. All paid for at a premium cost that grows ever upward even with decades old kits. So try as you may unless you are really devoted I can see the GW burn out being a very real thing. The saddest fact is, even when the players fade out they still say they like it but the nature of the beast just grinds them down.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 22:40:01


Post by: Sumilidon


I have caved and instead decided to join them. Currently painting a load of assault intercessors.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 22:44:44


Post by: AngryAngel80


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
If it wasn't for the pricing, their sales would rocket even higher, especially after this virus stuff. It's the price that shuts down many dreams to play before they can even grow. I know, as I've talked to many could have been players and price is invariably the hurdle too high to get over.


Most people have a range of dollars they'll spend on some sort of schedule. Say that person will still spend $100 and pretend it costs GW $10 to make a kit that they sell for $50. They can buy two of those. Then GW drops the price to $33, so they buy 3 of them. GW got zero additional revenue, but paid $30 in costs instead of $20. Some people may not even spend on the third kit - they may just be happy to buy two and save money.

Then consider than an FLGS gets 50% meaning GW gets $16 and pays $10. The majority of their sales are Trade. Such price drops affect trade account margins as well and you may well see the 15% discounts diminish as a consequence.

The end result is GW makes no additional revenue by dropping prices. There's a breakpoint where they do lose money by increasing prices, but they're not there yet, I think.

There are a fair number of avenues to get into the hobby without a massive outlay. Not everyone has to have everything right now. I know I didn't when I started.





No matter how you try and explain that to a new player, they see the cost of over $100 USD to just wiggle a toe in as too high. Yeah, you can save up for long amounts of time to get a full experience but most don't want to do that. They crunch the numbers and once they figure out how much it'll cost to make the force they want to have, they just go, to heck with that and get into something else.

Some armies are more cost effective but if you say " Love " the feel and look of GSC and crunch the numbers of a 1500 pt force ? They just say heck no. Not everyone wants to play marines and I tend to see current players do the pacing out of purchases to take the sting out of the costs.

We all won't be buying forever though and when we aren't, I really don't see those numbers still going up as it gets more expensive each year to try and jump in for a new player.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 22:57:50


Post by: Hellebore


Customer growth is what reducing prices does, not specifically increasing existing customer spending.

You expand the demographics capable of buying into the hobby by reducing the price, thus increasing your over all profit through numbers, rather than relying on a smaller population paying more.

And the way these things work, dropping the price by X% expands the demographic by orders of magnitude due to population wealth scaling.




Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 23:06:38


Post by: AngryAngel80


 Hellebore wrote:
Customer growth is what reducing prices does, not specifically increasing existing customer spending.

You expand the demographics capable of buying into the hobby by reducing the price, thus increasing your over all profit through numbers, rather than relying on a smaller population paying more.

And the way these things work, dropping the price by X% expands the demographic by orders of magnitude due to population wealth scaling.




You are a wise Hellebore indeed.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/24 23:23:21


Post by: drbored


 Hellebore wrote:
Customer growth is what reducing prices does, not specifically increasing existing customer spending.

You expand the demographics capable of buying into the hobby by reducing the price, thus increasing your over all profit through numbers, rather than relying on a smaller population paying more.

And the way these things work, dropping the price by X% expands the demographic by orders of magnitude due to population wealth scaling.




The problem currently is broader than that. Supply isn't really keeping up with current demand for GW product. Many products go in and out of availability, and new releases sell out very quickly despite being main-line product. Obviously we can point at the pandemic and other issues to this, but with the growing popularity of the GW hobby since 8th edition, GW's production capacity has been strained to keep supply consistent.

If price is lowered, that increases the demographic able to buy, which, yes, is great on the surface, but as it stands, GW's distribution would be stretched even more thin, and they'd lose money simply by being unable to produce desired product.

Therefore, they'd need to make a greater investment into factory capacity and inventory space in order to keep up with that demand, which would require a large capital investment. They already did this shortly after 8th dropped, with a fancy new distribution center in America and more machines in the UK, and that still hasn't been enough.

So, the company has to skirt this fine line. It goes something like this.
Company has X demand and Z supply.
When X demand is double Z supply, they invest capital into upgrading supply.
Repeat.

At no point is price involved in this. In fact, by keeping things where they are, the hobby will continue to grow, they can maintain prices to match inflation and other factors, and keep that supply/demand riding that process ad infinitum, as long as they continue to produce things that people want.

Another reason they do this is because supply and demand fluctuate. So, at the start of a new edition, demand skyrockets for lots of new kits and books. But then a year in, demand might sink a bit. There's no sense in saying they should upgrade supply at the peak of a new edition when they know it's going to taper off later during the year. They need for that curve of demand to be significant enough that it makes sense for their supply chain to be upgraded even during those dips.

So, there's a lot that goes into it, but a blanket price decrease just isn't in the cards unless demand severely drops and the company needs to sell off inventory to survive. At that point, the company would be going under.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 01:02:24


Post by: BlackoCatto


A price drop would be good no lie, probs make things easier and give me a bit more reason to buy from me these days. No incentive for me to anyway atm with the lack of models for my army and having a complete collection already just about. 3red party options more enticing and far cheaper with nice quality to work with.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 02:01:07


Post by: ZebioLizard2


SemperMortis wrote:
 Irbis wrote:


SemperMortis wrote:
Last tournament I went to was 50-60% space Marines. We had 2 ork players (myself included), a Nid player, a single tau player, 2 eldar players, 1 Imperial Guard player and than 2-3 Chaos type players. Let me tell you how boring it was to face off against those Marine players. I know that I was excited when I got to play non-power armored opponents and the feeling was mutual throughout most of the event. I know a few people who have "dropped" out of the hobby because its so mono-directional in game play these days. They will bounce back every few months or so to check in but otherwise they are AFK.

Funny, because now you know how SM players felt for nearly a decade facing Taudar nonsense. Scatbikes that, riptidewing this, serpentspam, aspects getting 2+ rerollable BS just for existing, invincible drones, 190 pts knights, that garbage was vastly more broken than anything SM can do in 8th or 9th - but funnily enough SM players admit there is a problem (and there is a ton of people who think kicking squats to 2W was idiotic move) while Taudar players were screeching game is tOtEs BaLaNcEd the whole time and pretending everything is okay because they got to win just for picking the army. 'These days' you say?


A decade you say. I mean, you could easily make an argument that Eldar were overpowered from 5th to mid 8th and I would agree with you, But scatbikes were only ever oppressively good in 7th, same with riptide wing, serpeantspam died before that....So really you are complaining about 7th in general, which again, i agree with, but its a bit hyperbolic to say a decade. 7th lasted like 3 years and during that time frame SM's were one of the top 3 armies in the game with their demi-company free razorback spam.
During that same time frame I was playing my orkz still. Reasonably sure we were in a neck and neck race for worst codex of 7th, so trust me when I say I understand the feeling of walking into a game knowing you are at a disadvantage. Also, 8th edition Ironhands nonsense and early gunline girlyman were a hell of a lot more oppressive than triptides or scatbikes, but that is my opinion.

Serpentspam and Wraithknights were 6th, then Scatbikes and Riptidewing in 7th, so that was 6th and 7th edition Eldar were oppressive in some way.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 02:17:25


Post by: Racerguy180


I've lost interest in my Salamanders & am shelving(not selling, love how they look)them for the foreseeable future. For some background, I'm sitting on 5k of Primaris and almost another 5k of Astartes, so I like marines and have been accused here of being a marine______whatever.

GW has made me have no interest in playing against loyalists, even when I use my Ynarri or Flawless Host.

Luckily I play in a diverse local group and most feel the same way, so at some point in the future we may feel inclined to focus on all.

GW could really pump the brakes on loyal marine releases, but they're not gonna. Cash Rules Everything Around Me(GW)dolla dolla bills y'all.

Which is a shame, I was tinkering with expanding my nephews Star Dragons to include some Primaris. Unfortunately how the state of releases goes I want to reinforce non-marine releases so no loyalist purchases for a while.

I really want to add to my Ynarri(currently mostly Deldar w a couple of Harlis) but want CWE and have zero interest in finecast. Want to start Orks but since they've been mostly ditched(minus new buggies & don't care bout Goffs) and lack many units in plastic, have made me reticent to start.

The barrier to entry is extremely high as there is no value added save the random discount box. Horde armies are at an inherent disadvantage from a pure army building standpoint. So this unfortunately leads to marine saturation which can become unfun quickly for all involved.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 03:25:12


Post by: CEO Kasen


There's always 3d printing, especially for armies who haven't been served as well by GW's release schedule and where the mini quality is often superior to older GW sculpts.

I don't know offhand of a good CWE modelset, but for Orks, I can and will point to the fantastic work of Geargut's Mekshop, whose Orks are big, chunky, and rather uniquely, kind of look like they're having fun.

Spoiler:




Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 05:59:30


Post by: Mr.Omega


The first thing I thought when I read about all the rules changes this edition was that it gave me a headache trying to wrap my head around all the tiny changes and thinking how much more complicated some basic stuff has got, even down to stuff like unit coherency.

I've seen a lot of worrying trends and changes that fostered concerns that have basically and seemingly turned out true given at the state of the meta being reported. I'm still working on painting a GSC army, because I'm learning a lot about painting and it's an interesting project. But I know for a fact that it's going to be about as fun to put on the table as a sandpaper bedroom toy, to put it gently. It's going to sit on a shelf and look pretty and that's about it.

GW seem to have made GEQ virtually worthless in a ridiculous kneejerk reaction to their laziness at the start of 8th where Astra Militarum had copy-pasted rules from 7th. In combination with a poorly thought out rule for Commissars which briefly gave AM insanely powerful conscript hordes that were immune to morale and could drown anything, they created a problem and then scrambled to fix it with one massive nerf at a time, each of which after the first was pure overkill.

But they kept going and now the blast and coherency rules are a thing, so my guardsmen bubblewrap are even easier to wipe out in record time.

Now we have cost efficient and spammable T5 3W marine troops which I'm told hover around the 20 pt mark and make my 6 pt Neophytes and 5 pt Guardsmen look laughable by comparison.

GW seem to have, piecemeal, forgotten the principle of game design that actually introducing something at the conceptual stage is a threat to game balance. We've seen Space Marines get a carbon copy of every niche unit from every other faction, but better. From what I can see they now have strong multi-wound basic infantry with long range guns that don't need mobility or transports, a variety of strong infiltration units, spammable firepower at long or short range, fast and durable transports, uber-powerful tanks that put IG to shame, a plethora of beatstick characters, niche gimmicks and strategies out the wazoo and more buffs and force multipliers than any other faction can shake a stick at. I mean I could go on all day.

They seem to have almost everyone's elses shtick and its dumb.

People have mentioned 5th edition in this thread. I loved 5th edition. I loved being able to play Marines and feel that my imperative was to rely on mobility, have a balance of stuff and build around stealing objectives knowing that it was futile and pointless to try and run a list that involved shooting the enemy off the board, because the most efficient unit for long ranged shooting was a Devastator Squad with 4 Missile Launchers or Lascannons. I started playing IG and enjoyed running niche platoons and being surprised at the ability of 30 Guardsmen to FRFSRF something out of existence valiantly just before it tore into them, or watching them fight heavy infantry in melee without it being a forgone conclusion.

None of that is the same anymore. Just play Marines and plonk down a mix of the new extreme-quantity-firepower-for-that-one-niche-units. GW brought out the Repulsor and thought no that's clearly too tame, lets have an even shootier, more specialized tank that does heavy firepower but can also shoot twice and called that the Repulsor Executioner. And now they've done it again, only this time we have the Gladiator, which is the same shtick, only scaled down to be more compact and more spammable! What's the point of Astra Militarum existing? I remember being excited looking at the Guard Codex because it was a novel concept that they had a tank that had a gatling gun that rolled twenty dice every time it fired. Now Marines are the Imperial Guard, but with power armour™.

At the end of 8th edition, my Guardsmen were used to block deepstrikers, and that was it. They were now so useless that they had gone from where I could use them offensively in 5th/6th, to having dubious use counter-offensively in 7th, to being a tarpit and deepstrike blocker in early-mid 8th, to just being a deepstrike speedbump that uberinfantry had to deal with first. Because I played a number of games where they were exterminated in a turn or two and served as little more than target practice.

Tl;dr

I've been playing a lot of X-Wing 2.0 lately and frankly it is refreshing. I can almost always pinpoint why I lost because of a tactical mistake that I made on a particular turn and I virtually never feel like I lost because my list was unplayable. I think often about how to play the cheapest low end ships and make them work against the high end ships that cost 5 times as much, and vice versa, and when I do I know I'm not clutching at straws.


When I think about writing lists for GSC, I think, jesus wept, what is even the point of taking Neophytes when 2W Marines are the least of my worries? How am I supposed to get anywhere with melee units that are incredibly fragile and expensive that are just barely threatening to Marines, that also depend on charges working out?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 06:29:06


Post by: Karol


drbored 796396 11064314 wrote:

You're looking at it from a gaming/meta standpoint.

I'm talking about a model-release standpoint.

If you take your shiny new space marines and go up against a guy whose models, that he just bought, are from 3rd or 5th edition, it's... a complex feeling.

It's an imbalance in releases. Someone goes to the shelves and sees a huge section devoted to space marines. They get to their chosen/favorite faction and they see half a shelf of models. It's kind of disheartening.

Then you turn around and see the AoS side of things where everything is actually pretty even, with some discrepancy for whatever is the new hotness.


What perspective am I to have, this is a game? I played in 8th and I played in 9th. In both editions my dudes were on the bad side. Marines on the other hand, both chaos and loyallist, changed. In 8th marine armies didn't want to run marines, it was inefficient and unfun. So model wise, you were being forced in to buying non marine models, which you may not even like the looks of, just to play the army you want to play. In 9th a marine army has actual marines in it, and that is great. . The fact that different marine armies are actualy able to use different units and have different builds is even better

If we were to go back to how stuff looked in 8th it would be a huge downgrade. But I agree maybe because I look at the game from the gaming perspective I have little sympathy to people that in prior editions could run circles around marines armies, specially if the marine player wasn't playing a tournament list.

People were defending eradicators as being balanced by pointing out that attack bikes and melta devs were almost as good LMAO.

not much different then marine players being told that not every eldar player plays Alaitoc or maxed out reapers, or a dron form for tau. If reapers shoting twice were balanced, and required you to learn to play the game better, then aggressors shoting twice are just as balanced. Otherwise we are having a double standard. And if we are to have one, then I at least would rather have an army closer to my be the one with good rules.




Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 10:51:22


Post by: Apple fox


 Amishprn86 wrote:
As a DE player, i just want 3-4 more HQ's, thats it, literally thats all I want.

1 Vect: Everyone else got their big baddy, I want mine
2 Baron: A cool unique HQ that everyone loved and added fun to the army
3 HQ with Fly: So I don't have to foot slug all over and feel fast, also Venoms and Raiders are 5 and 10 mans, adding a HQ sucks and doesn't feel right most the time (Bike, wings, skyboard)
4 Merch HQ: Optional one like a Mandrake, Incubi, Scourge, etc.. either any of them, just something.

Dracons, Ancients, etc.. can be with the same models we have now.


I been thinking a bit about this, and I think a big issue is so much of the design space and time is seeming put into marines and even interesting ideas in other Factions are often half done or not even thought about.

The uniqueness they could have is lost as the rules are not even written in a way to support them.
We are watching players drop, and the ones staying are getting more meta pushing by necessity.
Dropping none competing army’s and switch just to have some fun I do not think is going to be sustainable for 40k here again.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 10:58:51


Post by: tneva82


PenitentJake wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:


Most people have a range of dollars they'll spend on some sort of schedule. Say that person will still spend $100 and pretend it costs GW $10 to make a kit that they sell for $50. They can buy two of those. Then GW drops the price to $33, so they buy 3 of them. GW got zero additional revenue, but paid $30 in costs instead of $20. Some people may not even spend on the third kit - they may just be happy to buy two and save money.


One way of looking at it.

Here's another: think about all the people who don't deal with GW at all because of costs. If dropping your prices 50% gets you three or four times as many players who will stick with you for life, how much is that worth?

It isn't about how much each person spends (or at least it doesn't have to be); it can be about how many people spend any money at all.

Look at the new KT box. Many are complaining about the price, since the box only includes 12 models and very weak terrain. It's sales, from what I can tell by reading forums, are likely to disappoint GW. But if it was priced comparably with the Elite starter box, they wouldn't be able to keep it in stock. I'd buy one AND an Elite box, because that would give me enough Crons to field them. And I'd need a Necron dex on top of that.

But now, instead GW gets whatever they charge for heavy Intercessor from me instead. Likely $70 CAD instead of $290.



Forums are always on negative minority. Happy ones don't make as much noice...People claim always "this price sucks" yet stuff solds out anyway...

And GW have better sales data. They have tried making prices for new release lower. Guess it didn't work...Seeing you need to sell more than twice if you halve the price no surprise on luxury hobby that is pretty damn price elastic. Doubtful sales would go up 300% if cost is halved...And GW has data for sales lot more accurate than random internet poster has. They know when they tried how did it affect sales.

Not to mention...How on earth you sell more when you can't meet up with supply already! If you can't produce more than X how you intend to produce 3X? Supply&demand law is saying they are if anything underpricing since they can't meet with the demand...


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 11:03:54


Post by: Karol


They made prices lower for stuff like Dark Imperium and Know no Fear, and those boxs were a huge success. Stuff like indominatus is good only when compared to how much, specialy in retro spect, GW asks for the stuff. But those two boxs from 2ed were selling really well, a ton of people were picking them up. It was a bummer though, that marine armies based around primaris didn't become a thing till 2.0 book droped.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 11:13:36


Post by: kodos


in the wargaming hobby we have the strange behaviour that people don't buy something if they feel it is too expensive but spend much more money if it is cheap

there was the time when the €/GBP conversion rate changed a lot in favour for the € and ordering in the UK was very cheap
also because things were sold cheaper in the UK anyway, not only for GW but over all

people who never bought a Land Raider because it was too expensive bought 4-6 because it was "cheap"


but still if GW already sells everything they produce, not need to reduce the price and produce more

the tricky thing here is, that the conclusion for models not selling is "people don't like it" and not "maybe it is too expensive"

so they just make something else that sells better on the given price and are happy
while the costumer gets more and more Marines


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 12:08:10


Post by: Not Online!!!


 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
If it wasn't for the pricing, their sales would rocket even higher, especially after this virus stuff. It's the price that shuts down many dreams to play before they can even grow. I know, as I've talked to many could have been players and price is invariably the hurdle too high to get over.

my original plans for R&H were far smaller because i accumulated at the time money for it. And when i had it together the whole range got oop, so i went with a substitute, with superior quality for lower money. it was at that stage i realised just how overpriced GW is for what it offers.


My point in case, however as you're on here as I am I'd say we represent a rather hard core center for GW and even many of us find the pricing just frustrating. Not just for me or my wants but I couldn't imagine starting a guard army from scratch these days, I wouldn't. It would cost way too much. However if they think the hardcore players will be around for ever, perhaps they need to realize time is an issue. They will need to eventually court new players but they will not with this ever rising tide of cost barrier to entry, what I've seen anyways.

Agreed, and i think we have seen it, it was called warhammer fantasy.

I never got into it, despite having enough disposable income, for the sheer lack of size many factions required.
On average was 2000-3000 pts over here, i looked into Chaos warriors, ogre kingdoms and vampire counts with a focus on skelletons. It was just not justifyable pricewise, even against FW armies like R&H or DKoK which required less pts and had bundles available to them.

And starting a guard army? right now? beyond the basic trooper which you will require decent ammounts off looking comparatively fugly as hell, they also dropped the 20 man box for them. When i started out 40k i could get a 20 man guardsmen box for 40 CHF. now i get 10 for 32.50 CHF. For the same sprues.

Now recently i started out with a GSC count as, since chaos has me in it's grips, but i skipped GW infantry mostly or kitbashed them into something else and made the core of it Wargames atlantic WW1 germans. Which look better then IG guardsmen, are easier to customize in many ways and i can import via my local FLG for 32 CHF / 30 models with 90 heads and more options to boot.
Heck it was cheaper to order for my former R&H project 70 anvil industry models in their platoon deal to my definitions and specifications than it would've been for me to order the bodies as cadians in my FLG.

Basically even for me, which is willing to overlook the price tag if quality or availability and support is there i started to wonder.

But the real answer is, that GW is so strong within it's specific niche of market that it is in many ways an quasi monopolist, their maximum profit is not under competition and therefore maximum market share but rather production and logistical fix costs. So they can maximize profitability instead, which is why even though the pricehikes gw has had will have inevitably made some people jump ship or partially go off, will have been no issue for them since they will gain more profit out of the lower production ammount.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 12:33:06


Post by: the_scotsman


Spoiler:
 Mr.Omega wrote:
The first thing I thought when I read about all the rules changes this edition was that it gave me a headache trying to wrap my head around all the tiny changes and thinking how much more complicated some basic stuff has got, even down to stuff like unit coherency.

I've seen a lot of worrying trends and changes that fostered concerns that have basically and seemingly turned out true given at the state of the meta being reported. I'm still working on painting a GSC army, because I'm learning a lot about painting and it's an interesting project. But I know for a fact that it's going to be about as fun to put on the table as a sandpaper bedroom toy, to put it gently. It's going to sit on a shelf and look pretty and that's about it.

GW seem to have made GEQ virtually worthless in a ridiculous kneejerk reaction to their laziness at the start of 8th where Astra Militarum had copy-pasted rules from 7th. In combination with a poorly thought out rule for Commissars which briefly gave AM insanely powerful conscript hordes that were immune to morale and could drown anything, they created a problem and then scrambled to fix it with one massive nerf at a time, each of which after the first was pure overkill.

But they kept going and now the blast and coherency rules are a thing, so my guardsmen bubblewrap are even easier to wipe out in record time.

Now we have cost efficient and spammable T5 3W marine troops which I'm told hover around the 20 pt mark and make my 6 pt Neophytes and 5 pt Guardsmen look laughable by comparison.

GW seem to have, piecemeal, forgotten the principle of game design that actually introducing something at the conceptual stage is a threat to game balance. We've seen Space Marines get a carbon copy of every niche unit from every other faction, but better. From what I can see they now have strong multi-wound basic infantry with long range guns that don't need mobility or transports, a variety of strong infiltration units, spammable firepower at long or short range, fast and durable transports, uber-powerful tanks that put IG to shame, a plethora of beatstick characters, niche gimmicks and strategies out the wazoo and more buffs and force multipliers than any other faction can shake a stick at. I mean I could go on all day.

They seem to have almost everyone's elses shtick and its dumb.

People have mentioned 5th edition in this thread. I loved 5th edition. I loved being able to play Marines and feel that my imperative was to rely on mobility, have a balance of stuff and build around stealing objectives knowing that it was futile and pointless to try and run a list that involved shooting the enemy off the board, because the most efficient unit for long ranged shooting was a Devastator Squad with 4 Missile Launchers or Lascannons. I started playing IG and enjoyed running niche platoons and being surprised at the ability of 30 Guardsmen to FRFSRF something out of existence valiantly just before it tore into them, or watching them fight heavy infantry in melee without it being a forgone conclusion.

None of that is the same anymore. Just play Marines and plonk down a mix of the new extreme-quantity-firepower-for-that-one-niche-units. GW brought out the Repulsor and thought no that's clearly too tame, lets have an even shootier, more specialized tank that does heavy firepower but can also shoot twice and called that the Repulsor Executioner. And now they've done it again, only this time we have the Gladiator, which is the same shtick, only scaled down to be more compact and more spammable! What's the point of Astra Militarum existing? I remember being excited looking at the Guard Codex because it was a novel concept that they had a tank that had a gatling gun that rolled twenty dice every time it fired. Now Marines are the Imperial Guard, but with power armour™.

At the end of 8th edition, my Guardsmen were used to block deepstrikers, and that was it. They were now so useless that they had gone from where I could use them offensively in 5th/6th, to having dubious use counter-offensively in 7th, to being a tarpit and deepstrike blocker in early-mid 8th, to just being a deepstrike speedbump that uberinfantry had to deal with first. Because I played a number of games where they were exterminated in a turn or two and served as little more than target practice.

Tl;dr

I've been playing a lot of X-Wing 2.0 lately and frankly it is refreshing. I can almost always pinpoint why I lost because of a tactical mistake that I made on a particular turn and I virtually never feel like I lost because my list was unplayable. I think often about how to play the cheapest low end ships and make them work against the high end ships that cost 5 times as much, and vice versa, and when I do I know I'm not clutching at straws.


When I think about writing lists for GSC, I think, jesus wept, what is even the point of taking Neophytes when 2W Marines are the least of my worries? How am I supposed to get anywhere with melee units that are incredibly fragile and expensive that are just barely threatening to Marines, that also depend on charges working out?


I will tell you this, from the perspective of someone who owns and plays most of the armies that are considered unusably bad right now: some of your perspective is due to the fact that you are not currently playing the game.

A regular, T4, W2 intercessor is 20pts, not a heavy intercessor theyre like...I don't know, 30 or something. GEQ light infantry is not amazing at fighting, but it is good at running absolute circles around the opposing army.

My last game was against primaris-heavy salamanders infantry as Orks, admittedly not a tippy-top tournament game, but my opponent had what I'd consider a fairly reasonable, sensible list - some eradicators, mostly the best current version of intercessors as troops, flamestorm aggressors, lightning claw/storm shield vanvets with a discount smash captain and chaplain as a melee threat,and some of the assault cannon/double lascannon flyers for killing stuff.

Gretchins, boyz and kommandos absolutely 100% won the game for me. I had one really good threat to marines - two squads of flash gitz and badrukk in a kilkannon battlewagon with the defense upgrade - and a couple mek gunz and buggies which were able to kill a marine here or there and did bring down one of the flyers after a couple turns, but mostly it was just, gretchins and boyz and kommandos everywhere, on every objective, keeping 15pts per turn coming from primary, 3-4 banners up at all times, 2-3 points from engage on all fronts every turn, and after dealing with the big melee bomb on turn 2 I just kept killing the longer ranged intercessor and devastator squads sitting on the backfield objectives so my opponent would be forced to have assault intercessors sitting on them doing not much of anything so I couldn't burn them down for another 15 points.

Don't get me wrong, some light infantry units are in an absolutely asinine spot right now. Fire Warriors and Guardians have ZERO business being as expensive as they are. But in general cheap infantry units don't really need to be good at fighting when they can sit and perform actions all day long winning you the game.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 15:40:19


Post by: BlackoCatto


the_scotsman wrote:
Spoiler:
 Mr.Omega wrote:
The first thing I thought when I read about all the rules changes this edition was that it gave me a headache trying to wrap my head around all the tiny changes and thinking how much more complicated some basic stuff has got, even down to stuff like unit coherency.

I've seen a lot of worrying trends and changes that fostered concerns that have basically and seemingly turned out true given at the state of the meta being reported. I'm still working on painting a GSC army, because I'm learning a lot about painting and it's an interesting project. But I know for a fact that it's going to be about as fun to put on the table as a sandpaper bedroom toy, to put it gently. It's going to sit on a shelf and look pretty and that's about it.

GW seem to have made GEQ virtually worthless in a ridiculous kneejerk reaction to their laziness at the start of 8th where Astra Militarum had copy-pasted rules from 7th. In combination with a poorly thought out rule for Commissars which briefly gave AM insanely powerful conscript hordes that were immune to morale and could drown anything, they created a problem and then scrambled to fix it with one massive nerf at a time, each of which after the first was pure overkill.

But they kept going and now the blast and coherency rules are a thing, so my guardsmen bubblewrap are even easier to wipe out in record time.

Now we have cost efficient and spammable T5 3W marine troops which I'm told hover around the 20 pt mark and make my 6 pt Neophytes and 5 pt Guardsmen look laughable by comparison.

GW seem to have, piecemeal, forgotten the principle of game design that actually introducing something at the conceptual stage is a threat to game balance. We've seen Space Marines get a carbon copy of every niche unit from every other faction, but better. From what I can see they now have strong multi-wound basic infantry with long range guns that don't need mobility or transports, a variety of strong infiltration units, spammable firepower at long or short range, fast and durable transports, uber-powerful tanks that put IG to shame, a plethora of beatstick characters, niche gimmicks and strategies out the wazoo and more buffs and force multipliers than any other faction can shake a stick at. I mean I could go on all day.

They seem to have almost everyone's elses shtick and its dumb.

People have mentioned 5th edition in this thread. I loved 5th edition. I loved being able to play Marines and feel that my imperative was to rely on mobility, have a balance of stuff and build around stealing objectives knowing that it was futile and pointless to try and run a list that involved shooting the enemy off the board, because the most efficient unit for long ranged shooting was a Devastator Squad with 4 Missile Launchers or Lascannons. I started playing IG and enjoyed running niche platoons and being surprised at the ability of 30 Guardsmen to FRFSRF something out of existence valiantly just before it tore into them, or watching them fight heavy infantry in melee without it being a forgone conclusion.

None of that is the same anymore. Just play Marines and plonk down a mix of the new extreme-quantity-firepower-for-that-one-niche-units. GW brought out the Repulsor and thought no that's clearly too tame, lets have an even shootier, more specialized tank that does heavy firepower but can also shoot twice and called that the Repulsor Executioner. And now they've done it again, only this time we have the Gladiator, which is the same shtick, only scaled down to be more compact and more spammable! What's the point of Astra Militarum existing? I remember being excited looking at the Guard Codex because it was a novel concept that they had a tank that had a gatling gun that rolled twenty dice every time it fired. Now Marines are the Imperial Guard, but with power armour™.

At the end of 8th edition, my Guardsmen were used to block deepstrikers, and that was it. They were now so useless that they had gone from where I could use them offensively in 5th/6th, to having dubious use counter-offensively in 7th, to being a tarpit and deepstrike blocker in early-mid 8th, to just being a deepstrike speedbump that uberinfantry had to deal with first. Because I played a number of games where they were exterminated in a turn or two and served as little more than target practice.

Tl;dr

I've been playing a lot of X-Wing 2.0 lately and frankly it is refreshing. I can almost always pinpoint why I lost because of a tactical mistake that I made on a particular turn and I virtually never feel like I lost because my list was unplayable. I think often about how to play the cheapest low end ships and make them work against the high end ships that cost 5 times as much, and vice versa, and when I do I know I'm not clutching at straws.


When I think about writing lists for GSC, I think, jesus wept, what is even the point of taking Neophytes when 2W Marines are the least of my worries? How am I supposed to get anywhere with melee units that are incredibly fragile and expensive that are just barely threatening to Marines, that also depend on charges working out?


I will tell you this, from the perspective of someone who owns and plays most of the armies that are considered unusably bad right now: some of your perspective is due to the fact that you are not currently playing the game.

A regular, T4, W2 intercessor is 20pts, not a heavy intercessor theyre like...I don't know, 30 or something. GEQ light infantry is not amazing at fighting, but it is good at running absolute circles around the opposing army.

My last game was against primaris-heavy salamanders infantry as Orks, admittedly not a tippy-top tournament game, but my opponent had what I'd consider a fairly reasonable, sensible list - some eradicators, mostly the best current version of intercessors as troops, flamestorm aggressors, lightning claw/storm shield vanvets with a discount smash captain and chaplain as a melee threat,and some of the assault cannon/double lascannon flyers for killing stuff.

Gretchins, boyz and kommandos absolutely 100% won the game for me. I had one really good threat to marines - two squads of flash gitz and badrukk in a kilkannon battlewagon with the defense upgrade - and a couple mek gunz and buggies which were able to kill a marine here or there and did bring down one of the flyers after a couple turns, but mostly it was just, gretchins and boyz and kommandos everywhere, on every objective, keeping 15pts per turn coming from primary, 3-4 banners up at all times, 2-3 points from engage on all fronts every turn, and after dealing with the big melee bomb on turn 2 I just kept killing the longer ranged intercessor and devastator squads sitting on the backfield objectives so my opponent would be forced to have assault intercessors sitting on them doing not much of anything so I couldn't burn them down for another 15 points.

Don't get me wrong, some light infantry units are in an absolutely asinine spot right now. Fire Warriors and Guardians have ZERO business being as expensive as they are. But in general cheap infantry units don't really need to be good at fighting when they can sit and perform actions all day long winning you the game.


Difference is Orks are doing ok this edition. Guard, Tau, and GSC are not at all.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 16:04:08


Post by: Irkjoe


 Hellebore wrote:
Customer growth is what reducing prices does, not specifically increasing existing customer spending.

You expand the demographics capable of buying into the hobby by reducing the price, thus increasing your over all profit through numbers, rather than relying on a smaller population paying more.

And the way these things work, dropping the price by X% expands the demographic by orders of magnitude due to population wealth scaling.




Don't they make more off of selling to fanatics at a high price? Could their collective spending be greater especially if they stick with it in the long term while regular people aren't as dedicated. Imo they reach all these people by making various games with lower pay walls like necromunda.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 16:14:26


Post by: Xenomancers


Look at me! I hate marines! I am special!

Look at what dakka has become.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 16:51:14


Post by: vipoid


 Xenomancers wrote:
Look at me! I hate marines! I am special!

Look at what dakka has become.


You're right, we're all being too negative about the state of the game. At least Dark Eldar players, like myself, can take solace in the fact that GW has finally taken the spotlight off Marines to give our faction some desperately-needed attention.

Here, let's calm ourselves by basking in the new range of DE units:

Spoiler:


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 17:02:07


Post by: PenitentJake


With ya Vipod. I know, it's silly to be hopeful, but I am. It helps that the thing I'm most interested in is Crusade content, because I do know the dex will have it.

I was also happy that a) there is a boxed set with Lelith in it, and b) that Sisters are the other force, because they are my primary army.

Finally, I'm happy to see that DE are in the Flashpoint/ Crusade mission pack/ Hardback campaign book that's coming.

That's not a lot- admittedly; we do absolutely need more. And hopefully, we'll get more. I really hope the wall to wall previewing that usually precedes a dex drop will start soon, because some of the things I most want to know about the new dex (how raiding force will play out) are likely to be previewed.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 17:05:45


Post by: Xenomancers


 vipoid wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Look at me! I hate marines! I am special!

Look at what dakka has become.


You're right, we're all being too negative about the state of the game. At least Dark Eldar players, like myself, can take solace in the fact that GW has finally taken the spotlight off Marines to give our faction some desperately-needed attention.

Here, let's calm ourselves by basking in the new range of DE units:

Spoiler:
Drazar and incubi are new models. I got 20 incubi the day they came out. Id love some new stuff too but DE models are all actually pretty good.

It's sad - we wont get anything new other than a trash lilith...really what direction should they go with DE though? I think the focus on eldar is going to be ynnari at this point.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 17:10:53


Post by: Insectum7


the_scotsman wrote:
Spoiler:
 Mr.Omega wrote:
The first thing I thought when I read about all the rules changes this edition was that it gave me a headache trying to wrap my head around all the tiny changes and thinking how much more complicated some basic stuff has got, even down to stuff like unit coherency.

I've seen a lot of worrying trends and changes that fostered concerns that have basically and seemingly turned out true given at the state of the meta being reported. I'm still working on painting a GSC army, because I'm learning a lot about painting and it's an interesting project. But I know for a fact that it's going to be about as fun to put on the table as a sandpaper bedroom toy, to put it gently. It's going to sit on a shelf and look pretty and that's about it.

GW seem to have made GEQ virtually worthless in a ridiculous kneejerk reaction to their laziness at the start of 8th where Astra Militarum had copy-pasted rules from 7th. In combination with a poorly thought out rule for Commissars which briefly gave AM insanely powerful conscript hordes that were immune to morale and could drown anything, they created a problem and then scrambled to fix it with one massive nerf at a time, each of which after the first was pure overkill.

But they kept going and now the blast and coherency rules are a thing, so my guardsmen bubblewrap are even easier to wipe out in record time.

Now we have cost efficient and spammable T5 3W marine troops which I'm told hover around the 20 pt mark and make my 6 pt Neophytes and 5 pt Guardsmen look laughable by comparison.

GW seem to have, piecemeal, forgotten the principle of game design that actually introducing something at the conceptual stage is a threat to game balance. We've seen Space Marines get a carbon copy of every niche unit from every other faction, but better. From what I can see they now have strong multi-wound basic infantry with long range guns that don't need mobility or transports, a variety of strong infiltration units, spammable firepower at long or short range, fast and durable transports, uber-powerful tanks that put IG to shame, a plethora of beatstick characters, niche gimmicks and strategies out the wazoo and more buffs and force multipliers than any other faction can shake a stick at. I mean I could go on all day.

They seem to have almost everyone's elses shtick and its dumb.

People have mentioned 5th edition in this thread. I loved 5th edition. I loved being able to play Marines and feel that my imperative was to rely on mobility, have a balance of stuff and build around stealing objectives knowing that it was futile and pointless to try and run a list that involved shooting the enemy off the board, because the most efficient unit for long ranged shooting was a Devastator Squad with 4 Missile Launchers or Lascannons. I started playing IG and enjoyed running niche platoons and being surprised at the ability of 30 Guardsmen to FRFSRF something out of existence valiantly just before it tore into them, or watching them fight heavy infantry in melee without it being a forgone conclusion.

None of that is the same anymore. Just play Marines and plonk down a mix of the new extreme-quantity-firepower-for-that-one-niche-units. GW brought out the Repulsor and thought no that's clearly too tame, lets have an even shootier, more specialized tank that does heavy firepower but can also shoot twice and called that the Repulsor Executioner. And now they've done it again, only this time we have the Gladiator, which is the same shtick, only scaled down to be more compact and more spammable! What's the point of Astra Militarum existing? I remember being excited looking at the Guard Codex because it was a novel concept that they had a tank that had a gatling gun that rolled twenty dice every time it fired. Now Marines are the Imperial Guard, but with power armour™.

At the end of 8th edition, my Guardsmen were used to block deepstrikers, and that was it. They were now so useless that they had gone from where I could use them offensively in 5th/6th, to having dubious use counter-offensively in 7th, to being a tarpit and deepstrike blocker in early-mid 8th, to just being a deepstrike speedbump that uberinfantry had to deal with first. Because I played a number of games where they were exterminated in a turn or two and served as little more than target practice.

Tl;dr

I've been playing a lot of X-Wing 2.0 lately and frankly it is refreshing. I can almost always pinpoint why I lost because of a tactical mistake that I made on a particular turn and I virtually never feel like I lost because my list was unplayable. I think often about how to play the cheapest low end ships and make them work against the high end ships that cost 5 times as much, and vice versa, and when I do I know I'm not clutching at straws.


When I think about writing lists for GSC, I think, jesus wept, what is even the point of taking Neophytes when 2W Marines are the least of my worries? How am I supposed to get anywhere with melee units that are incredibly fragile and expensive that are just barely threatening to Marines, that also depend on charges working out?


I will tell you this, from the perspective of someone who owns and plays most of the armies that are considered unusably bad right now: some of your perspective is due to the fact that you are not currently playing the game.

A regular, T4, W2 intercessor is 20pts, not a heavy intercessor theyre like...I don't know, 30 or something. GEQ light infantry is not amazing at fighting, but it is good at running absolute circles around the opposing army.

My last game was against primaris-heavy salamanders infantry as Orks, admittedly not a tippy-top tournament game, but my opponent had what I'd consider a fairly reasonable, sensible list - some eradicators, mostly the best current version of intercessors as troops, flamestorm aggressors, lightning claw/storm shield vanvets with a discount smash captain and chaplain as a melee threat,and some of the assault cannon/double lascannon flyers for killing stuff.

Gretchins, boyz and kommandos absolutely 100% won the game for me. I had one really good threat to marines - two squads of flash gitz and badrukk in a kilkannon battlewagon with the defense upgrade - and a couple mek gunz and buggies which were able to kill a marine here or there and did bring down one of the flyers after a couple turns, but mostly it was just, gretchins and boyz and kommandos everywhere, on every objective, keeping 15pts per turn coming from primary, 3-4 banners up at all times, 2-3 points from engage on all fronts every turn, and after dealing with the big melee bomb on turn 2 I just kept killing the longer ranged intercessor and devastator squads sitting on the backfield objectives so my opponent would be forced to have assault intercessors sitting on them doing not much of anything so I couldn't burn them down for another 15 points.

Don't get me wrong, some light infantry units are in an absolutely asinine spot right now. Fire Warriors and Guardians have ZERO business being as expensive as they are. But in general cheap infantry units don't really need to be good at fighting when they can sit and perform actions all day long winning you the game.
I enjoyed this post a lot scotsman, thanks!

I hate that I can't play games right now :/


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 17:10:55


Post by: JNAProductions


 Xenomancers wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Look at me! I hate marines! I am special!

Look at what dakka has become.


You're right, we're all being too negative about the state of the game. At least Dark Eldar players, like myself, can take solace in the fact that GW has finally taken the spotlight off Marines to give our faction some desperately-needed attention.

Here, let's calm ourselves by basking in the new range of DE units:

Spoiler:
Drazar and incubi are new models. I got 20 incubi the day they came out. Id love some new stuff too but DE models are all actually pretty good.

It's sad - we wont get anything new other than a trash lilith...really what direction should they go with DE though? I think the focus on eldar is going to be ynnari at this point.
Wasn't that a 2018 release?

I don't think we should count models that are years old as a new release.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 17:22:02


Post by: Yarium


You know what? We're 7 pages in, and I just noticed it, and I have to thank you.

OP. Thank you for correctly spelling "losing". I've developed anxiety attacks from people "loosing" their minds too many times. So yeah, 7 pages late, but THANK YOU!


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 17:22:09


Post by: Daedalus81


 BlackoCatto wrote:

Difference is Orks are doing ok this edition. Guard, Tau, and GSC are not at all.


GSC are hamstrung, because they bear the burden of 8th dynamics. T'au are seeing a little more traction with suits, but they won't get too far still. AM have all the tools for good lists. I think their problem is still writing lists for 8th where the first thing they do is check off 3 Tank Commanders and then build the rest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Wasn't that a 2018 release?

I don't think we should count models that are years old as a new release.


Nov '19


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 17:26:25


Post by: JNAProductions


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Wasn't that a 2018 release?

I don't think we should count models that are years old as a new release.


Nov '19
Ah, okay. So still over a year old.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 17:30:49


Post by: vipoid


 Xenomancers wrote:
Drazar and incubi are new models.


I did say new units.

As in, not just replacement sculpts for already existing models. Because those are all we've gotten in over a decade now.


 Xenomancers wrote:
It's sad - we wont get anything new other than a trash lilith...really what direction should they go with DE though? I think the focus on eldar is going to be ynnari at this point.


I mean, if they want to go the ynnari route then I wish they'd bloody well get on with it.

Ynnari have been out since late-7th and the only units they have are 3 special characters. Not exactly a shining example of progression.


As for DE, I think there are numerous routes they could go with them. In terms of models. e.g.:
- Mobility options (Wings/Skyboards/Jetbikes) for existing HQs.
- Lieutenant HQs (Dracon, lesser Haemonculus)
- A Mandrake HQ
- A non-special character Incubi HQ
- Any of the 5 special characters that have been removed since 5th
etc.

If you mean in terms of direction, Mandrakes and Beasts both seem like they could be expanded on to some extent. The former seems like it would lend itself better to characters, but the latter has a lot of potential for new stuff. Hell, GW could probably just repackage stuff from its Fantasy range and it would work fine.


The thing is, though, I don't even desperately need GW to make new models for DE. I'd be happy enough if they'd just throw their 'no model, no rules' policy into the woodchipper and give DE a bunch of new units with or without accompanying models.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 18:21:23


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
If it wasn't for the pricing, their sales would rocket even higher, especially after this virus stuff. It's the price that shuts down many dreams to play before they can even grow. I know, as I've talked to many could have been players and price is invariably the hurdle too high to get over.


Most people have a range of dollars they'll spend on some sort of schedule. Say that person will still spend $100 and pretend it costs GW $10 to make a kit that they sell for $50. They can buy two of those. Then GW drops the price to $33, so they buy 3 of them. GW got zero additional revenue, but paid $30 in costs instead of $20. Some people may not even spend on the third kit - they may just be happy to buy two and save money.

Then consider than an FLGS gets 50% meaning GW gets $16 and pays $10. The majority of their sales are Trade. Such price drops affect trade account margins as well and you may well see the 15% discounts diminish as a consequence.

The end result is GW makes no additional revenue by dropping prices. There's a breakpoint where they do lose money by increasing prices, but they're not there yet, I think.

There are a fair number of avenues to get into the hobby without a massive outlay. Not everyone has to have everything right now. I know I didn't when I started.





sure, but then you have to also take into account the people that chose to not even spend their 100$ with GW at all because of their pricing.
Why would i pay 55$ for a box of Howling banshees when i can get the equivalent of 4 boxes for the same price?
Why would i pay 120$ for 5 Contekar Terminators when i can get 3 kits for the same price?

Just with these two boxes, instead of GW making 175$ from me, they made 0$. Multiply that by all the people that do the same or don't even start the hobby and you could see how much money is lost.

But to be fair, i'm sure GW has ran the numbers and knows what the optimal pricing of everything is, its just that as a customer, i just can't make myself spend the prices that they ask.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
drbored 796396 11064314 wrote:

You're looking at it from a gaming/meta standpoint.

I'm talking about a model-release standpoint.



What perspective am I to have, this is a game?



The perspective theyre using is quite obviously stated.... No matter what you do or what happened to you, you can't say that marines havn't had more release than any other faction since you started playing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:


People were defending eradicators as being balanced by pointing out that attack bikes and melta devs were almost as good LMAO.

not much different then marine players being told that not every eldar player plays Alaitoc or maxed out reapers, or a dron form for tau. If reapers shoting twice were balanced, and required you to learn to play the game better, then aggressors shoting twice are just as balanced. Otherwise we are having a double standard. And if we are to have one, then I at least would rather have an army closer to my be the one with good rules.




Thats two different things. One is saying a unit that overperforms every other similar unit in every other army is "balanced" because theyres an even stronger option. The other one was saying that only a single subfaction/list was OP for the whole army and that wasn't fun. Marines as they are can pretty much run whatever list they want and do good in a casual setting. Eldar players pretty much needed to be running Reapers at the start of 8th, then Shining spears, then Alaitoc flyers as the previous builds got nerfed.

An eradicator/melta bike is good in every chapter, dark reapers were only OP when double shooting with ynnari, flyers were only OP when they became unhittable with Alaitoc.

And no, Reapers shooting twice was never balanced (Ynnari 1.0 was never balanced as a whole). Its not double standards, you're just remembering things so that you keep feeding your eldar hate. There was plenty of complaints about them in 8th. The comments you probably misunderstood for being apologists were probably just people genuinely giving people tricks as to how to beat these lists since considering they still existed. Once Ynnari got destroyed, pretty much only you kept crying about them being OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Drazar and incubi are new models. I got 20 incubi the day they came out. Id love some new stuff too but DE models are all actually pretty good.

It's sad - we wont get anything new other than a trash lilith...really what direction should they go with DE though? I think the focus on eldar is going to be ynnari at this point.



HAHAHA, you're serious? Drazar and Incubi are "remastered" models. They bring nothing new to the army. The models we have are good, we just need new options (or to get back lost ones like bloodbrides and trueborns + HQs).

There is plenty of direction they can go with DE , just takes a little bit of love and creativity. The whole "masochistic space pirates" theme has a lot of fun gaming options to go with.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 18:47:35


Post by: luky7dayz


I agree, its so boring. I have a 3500 point imperium soup list, but to me, that is done. I dont think i will ever add to it again, but they constantly add more stuff to the space marine line. I'm sorry GW, but we dont NEED more space marines, we have horus hersey for those who want the sexy marine on marine action, but we need to further incentivize players to step away from marines, or else we will just have 30k marine on marine and 40k marine on marine.

wheres the fun in that?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 21:01:23


Post by: BlackoCatto


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:

Difference is Orks are doing ok this edition. Guard, Tau, and GSC are not at all.


GSC are hamstrung, because they bear the burden of 8th dynamics. T'au are seeing a little more traction with suits, but they won't get too far still. AM have all the tools for good lists. I think their problem is still writing lists for 8th where the first thing they do is check off 3 Tank Commanders and then build the rest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Wasn't that a 2018 release?

I don't think we should count models that are years old as a new release.


Nov '19


You'll be the the first I heard to say AM have any tools besides Bullgryn this edition.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 21:12:33


Post by: PenitentJake


Some have said DE existing models are good.

Really, the only models in the range I don't like are Sslyth and Grotesques.

The beasts and their master? Good looking, I'll give you that... but resin just the same, so yeah, in need of replacement, even though they look good. Ditto on the other members of the Court of the Archon and Mandrakes.

Vipod's list of stuff:

- Mobility options (Wings/Skyboards/Jetbikes) for existing HQs.
- Lieutenant HQs (Dracon, lesser Haemonculus)
- A Mandrake HQ
- A non-special character Incubi HQ
- Any of the 5 special characters that have been removed since 5th
etc.

This was bang on.

I'd maybe cut the generic HQ for Incubi and just give the Mandrake their named (Decapitator/ Kheradruakh- how cool is a four armed Mandrake!) and I'd also create a named Scourge (especially since GW has included Scourges in two boxed sets). But man I want good plastic grotesques in boxes of 3- and if I could get posable plastic Court of the Archon...

Love the Lhamaeans and Medusae, but don't want to buy failcast.



Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 21:36:30


Post by: Karol







The perspective theyre using is quite obviously stated.... No matter what you do or what happened to you, you can't say that marines havn't had more release than any other faction since you started playing.


But that makes no sense, xeno armies don't have the number of players marines do. That is like me asking that I should have the same level of scholarship that some dude gets, who is going to be in the olympics, just because we both do wrestling at a sports school. Marines have more players, and more factions, so they get more support. If other armies were more popular, or there was not most popular army , like it is the case for AoS for example, then GW wouldn't be given them the same number of models.




Thats two different things. One is saying a unit that overperforms every other similar unit in every other army is "balanced" because theyres an even stronger option. The other one was saying that only a single subfaction/list was OP for the whole army and that wasn't fun. Marines as they are can pretty much run whatever list they want and do good in a casual setting. Eldar players pretty much needed to be running Reapers at the start of 8th, then Shining spears, then Alaitoc flyers as the previous builds got nerfed.

In 8th, eldar could run more or less everything too, because their sub rules were so good, they could carry bad units. They could also make an army which was good an entire edition, which can not be said about other top armies of 8th ed, like tyranids tyrant lists, casteallan knight lists or cmd spams.
The fact that they could do that, was considered a good thing, and something that other factions would want to have too. Well, then marines just have been given that. Different type of marines can be used by different marine factions to make good and fun list. What should have happened instead , a mirror of the begining of 8th? with majority of sm factions being really weak. Hey even they are still weak comparing to the best armies, demons, harlis and custodes have better stats then most marine list. Go tell a BT or CF player that he is having it too good right now and that the units he has should be nerfed to balanced it against armies, who didn't get their 9th ed book yet. And what is suppose to happen when they do get their book, and it ends up anywhere near as oppresive as what was in 8th. Are the marines books going to be unerfed then? Because we all know that GW would not do that, until 10th ed comes.

And needing to run specific units to have a working army being strange or unique strikes me as very strange. Most if not all armies are build like that by GW, eldar in 8th at least didn't have to use non eldar units to build their list. They didn't have to start their sm army with a loyal 32.

But I get it, eldar players don't like the situation their army is in right now. But I don't understand why they want marines to get weaker, have fewer options etc without even seeing their 9th ed book. In 8th my dudes had to go though codex, index two CAs, for people to finaly agree that maybe GK aren't in the best spot in 8th. Maybe eldar players can wait that long too. Who knows maybe their book is going to be even more OP, then it the one from 8th. And if not then, there is still 10th ed.


An eradicator/melta bike is good in every chapter, dark reapers were only OP when double shooting with ynnari, flyers were only OP when they became unhittable with Alaitoc.

Have you trying playing marines without attack bikes or eradictors? specially vs the good or new armies. The match ups are neither unbalanced nor in favour of the marines most of the time. Marines shouldn't be balanced against the weakest army in an edition, because with how many players marines have this means a bad time for 3 years for a lot of people.

And no, Reapers shooting twice was never balanced (Ynnari 1.0 was never balanced as a whole). Its not double standards, you're just remembering things so that you keep feeding your eldar hate. There was plenty of complaints about them in 8th. The comments you probably misunderstood for being apologists were probably just people genuinely giving people tricks as to how to beat these lists since considering they still existed. Once Ynnari got destroyed, pretty much only you kept crying about them being OP.

Comparing to my dudes everything was OP, the difference is that I do not forget things. And Inari got destroyed at the very end of 8th ed. so eldar players had plenty of time to play with them. And then they just switched to playing flyer lists, for lore reasons I bet.





Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 21:44:38


Post by: harlokin


PenitentJake wrote:
Some have said DE existing models are good.

Really, the only models in the range I don't like are Sslyth and Grotesques.


No, say it ain't so....not Missster Sslyth?!

I think that Grotesques look great, but I don't understand why they hide them in boxes labled Crypt Horrors.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 21:49:51


Post by: Dysartes


Man, there are several DE posters on here who make it very hard to want that faction to get anything out of their upcoming release.

OP, if you're losing interest at the moment, pack everything away and leave things for a couple of years. Don't sell your stuff, but take a break from the game, from WHC, from Dakka, etc.

At some point, you're likely to get the urge to come see what's going on, and to try to get a game in - odds are, Warhammer 40k will still be here when that urge does kick in. If it isn't, I'm sure some form of Oldhammer 40k will be


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 22:20:40


Post by: vipoid


PenitentJake wrote:

I'd maybe cut the generic HQ for Incubi and just give the Mandrake their named (Decapitator/ Kheradruakh- how cool is a four armed Mandrake!) and I'd also create a named Scourge (especially since GW has included Scourges in two boxed sets).


Each to their own but I'd much rather see the available generic characters expanded first.

I know some people really like special characters, but I'd much rather have some nice ones that I can customise and personalise.

I wouldn't object to Kheradruakh making a comeback, but I'd like an actual generic Mandrake HQ - so that if I want a Mandrake-themed army, my options aren't 'Kheradruakh or GTFO'. Same for the Scourge HQ.

Of course, I realise that others have a much greater interest in special characters than I do, hence why I put them on the list (personally, Vect can stay in the void for all I care ). But my preference definitely lies in more generic characters before more special ones.


 harlokin wrote:
I think that Grotesques look great, but I don't understand why they hide them in boxes labled Crypt Horrors.




Looks like you beat me to that particular joke.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 22:42:26


Post by: Daedalus81


 BlackoCatto wrote:
You'll be the the first I heard to say AM have any tools besides Bullgryn this edition.


I'm not going to say they'll sweep tables, but -- scions, full payload, fighty transports, bullgryns... A Chimera is now 75 with a HF & Multilaser. It can block the path to objectives and scrap in melee and gives up just one point now.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 22:47:40


Post by: PenitentJake


W Artel groteques are decent too.

And yeah, generic HQ's are best, especially for Crusaders like me; named are frozen in time, but generics can grow.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/25 23:17:25


Post by: BlackoCatto


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
You'll be the the first I heard to say AM have any tools besides Bullgryn this edition.


I'm not going to say they'll sweep tables, but -- scions, full payload, fighty transports, bullgryns... A Chimera is now 75 with a HF & Multilaser. It can block the path to objectives and scrap in melee and gives up just one point now.


That is not much and from experience on this edition Scion are not that much better than regular Guard. Chimera's are still bleh as well and easily shot off.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 01:23:02


Post by: dogboy311


I’ll never understand, how so many people on this site just can’t seem too grasp the fact that the reason Space marines get the most releases is because they are the biggest money maker GW has. People like them more then your faction, deal with it. Also with all the GW bashing, they don’t know what they are doing, they don’t realize how many people hate this game cause marines, ARRRRGHHH. It’s ridiculous, space marines bring more people too our hobby and game then any other faction. Witch keeps our hobby and game around. So for all the negative Nancy’s remember you’d have no game without space marines.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 01:26:01


Post by: JNAProductions


dogboy311 wrote:
I’ll never understand, how so many people on this site just can’t seem too grasp the fact that the reason Space marines get the most releases is because they are the biggest money maker GW has. People like them more then your faction, deal with it. Also with all the GW bashing, they don’t know what they are doing, they don’t realize how many people hate this game cause marines, ARRRRGHHH. It’s ridiculous, space marines bring more people too our hobby and game then any other faction. Witch keeps our hobby and game around. So for all the negative Nancy’s remember you’d have no game without space marines.
Can I tag along when you hop into an alternate reality where Eldar were focused on vastly more than other factions, and that caused GW to crash and burn?
Or IG?
Or Ad Mech?
Or GSC?
Or literally any other faction?

Marines get a vastly disproportionate amount of attention from GW. If another faction got that much attention, they might do just as well. Or they might not. But given what GW has done, we don't know for sure.

What we DO know is that when a reasonably priced non-Marine army gets good releases (like Sisters or Necrons) they go pretty dang fast.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 01:28:37


Post by: Castozor


dogboy311 wrote:
I’ll never understand, how so many people on this site just can’t seem too grasp the fact that the reason Space marines get the most releases is because they are the biggest money maker GW has. People like them more then your faction, deal with it. Also with all the GW bashing, they don’t know what they are doing, they don’t realize how many people hate this game cause marines, ARRRRGHHH. It’s ridiculous, space marines bring more people too our hobby and game then any other faction. Witch keeps our hobby and game around. So for all the negative Nancy’s remember you’d have no game without space marines.

As many people have said before, and more eloquently than me at that, this is a bit of a chicken and egg scenario. Maybe, just maybe, they are the most popular and revenue generating army because it seems like every second release is a SM release. Not just that it seems like half the promotion for the game is SM related too. So it's little wonder a lot of money is generated from SM sales, since it's basically all GW focuses on. I'm pretty sure that WHFB did not have 30% of people playing the Empire because both the release schedule and lore did not focus 80% of the time on the Empire. In my eyes SM being the main seller is a self fulfilling prophecy for GW because it's all they focus on.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 02:54:58


Post by: VladimirHerzog


dogboy311 wrote:
I’ll never understand, how so many people on this site just can’t seem too grasp the fact that the reason Space marines get the most releases is because they are the biggest money maker GW has. People like them more then your faction, deal with it. Also with all the GW bashing, they don’t know what they are doing, they don’t realize how many people hate this game cause marines, ARRRRGHHH. It’s ridiculous, space marines bring more people too our hobby and game then any other faction. Witch keeps our hobby and game around. So for all the negative Nancy’s remember you’d have no game without space marines.


sigh....

We KNOW thats why marines have more releases, that doesn't change that in order for everyone to enjoy the hobby evenly, every faction should get the same support from GW.
We KNOW that wont happen because GW wants to make money, that doesn't change the fact that we can complain about it.

Just like i KNOW world hunger will probably never be completely eradicated, i'm allowed to say that everyone should get the same amount of food in their bellies.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 03:08:39


Post by: CEO Kasen


dogboy311 wrote:
I’ll never understand, how so many people on this site just can’t seem too grasp the fact that the reason Space marines get the most releases is because they are the biggest money maker GW has. People like them more then your faction, deal with it.


We understand that this is a likely reasoning for their actions. We also understand that if you are expecting players to embody a variety of factions in a game, that this is a recipe for an awful game. We further understand that part of the reason people like them more is that they get more support and publicity, as recent Sisters and Necron releases and their success have shown - the chicken and egg scenario often noted.

dogboy311 wrote:
Also with all the GW bashing, they don’t know what they are doing, they don’t realize how many people hate this game cause marines, ARRRRGHHH. It’s ridiculous, space marines bring more people too our hobby and game then any other faction. Witch keeps our hobby and game around. So for all the negative Nancy’s remember you’d have no game without space marines.


I... what? Who the hell here is saying "Remove Marines from the game?" I'm not, and I'm so sick of Marines that I'd have genuine gastrointestinal distress if I got news of another Marine release right about now.

I assume most of us just want Space Marines to be treated within an order of magnitude of other factions. Your overblown reaction is a textbook straw man you've torn into like a rabid dog with a malfunctioning spacebar.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 07:07:36


Post by: Bosskelot


Let's not forget that the Sisters of Battle Squad was the best selling kit of 2019 for GW.

So in a year with 2 big Primaris release waves and all the investment that must have required, the ordinary sisters box still outsold anything in the Marine faction despite essentially being a new army with practically no established playerbase.

Anecdotal too, but at my LGS the Necron stuff has been outselling the Marine stuff (with the exception of the Codex). Oh and when the Christmas Battleforces came out, the Necron one sold out everywhere immediately more or less. But the Marine one took quite a while (comparatively) to disappear. Guess which box my LGS still has sitting on the shelf too.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 10:11:36


Post by: Karol


 VladimirHerzog wrote:


sigh....

We KNOW thats why marines have more releases, that doesn't change that in order for everyone to enjoy the hobby evenly, every faction should get the same support from GW.
We KNOW that wont happen because GW wants to make money, that doesn't change the fact that we can complain about it.

Just like i KNOW world hunger will probably never be completely eradicated, i'm allowed to say that everyone should get the same amount of food in their bellies.


Okey you made me laugh, and I thank you for that. It was a good laugh, and I needed it. There is no should if you are not the top sellers or contender. Heck there isn't even a should if you are.

And I don't think someone like me, who needs double or triple the calories should be forced to eat as little as a regular guy. My grandfather was eating over 3000calories a day, but he was a forward miner. If he ate as much as my other grandfather who was teacher, he would die on third or fourth day of work.
Marines are like that, they sustain the entire company, and the run efficiently they need more calories. If marines sell bad GW is in trouble. If GK sells bad, no one cares, probably not even the GK players. That is why marines should have as much focus put on them as possible. Because with marines selling well, GW has enough money to experiment with other armies, or even other games. Does any one think that if GW were in the red, we would be getting new SoB or AoS ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Bosskelot wrote:
Let's not forget that the Sisters of Battle Squad was the best selling kit of 2019 for GW.
.


Was it speed of being sold, or % of produced vs % of those sold, or was it raw units. Because I don't think SoB, as great of a seller as they were, could come even close to the unit sells of stuff like No know fear or DI. And if they did, that this is in deed a huge achivment, and GW should definitly invest more money in to developing more stuff for the SoB line.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 10:14:02


Post by: Cronch


All I'm hearing is GW put all their eggs in one basket, and will collapse as soon as everyone has a marine army.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 10:27:59


Post by: Ordana


dogboy311 wrote:
I’ll never understand, how so many people on this site just can’t seem too grasp the fact that the reason Space marines get the most releases is because they are the biggest money maker GW has. People like them more then your faction, deal with it. Also with all the GW bashing, they don’t know what they are doing, they don’t realize how many people hate this game cause marines, ARRRRGHHH. It’s ridiculous, space marines bring more people too our hobby and game then any other faction. Witch keeps our hobby and game around. So for all the negative Nancy’s remember you’d have no game without space marines.
Once upon a time DE were not selling well, and GW wondered why they should release updated DE models when DE doesn't sell well.
Eventually they remade a bunch of stuff anyway and it sold very well.

SoB didn't sell well, and GW dragged their feet on making new SoB models because they were not selling well.
When they eventually got around to it they sold very well.

Turns out that stuff doesn't sell if you neglect it.

Space marines sell well because space marines get all the attention and because space marines get all the attention they sell well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cronch wrote:
All I'm hearing is GW put all their eggs in one basket, and will collapse as soon as everyone has a marine army.
That is entirely why Primaris exist now. They were GW's answer to "how do we sell more marines when everyone already owns a marine army".


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 10:34:20


Post by: Jidmah


How about they release an codex for World Eaters or Emperor's Children with a full model line behind it to sell a completely new marine army to everyone who already has one?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 10:47:58


Post by: Cronch


CSM are just NPCs to get beat up by the Good Marines, it's like expecting Cobra toys to save G.I Joe toyline.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 10:54:49


Post by: Not Online!!!


Cronch wrote:
CSM are just NPCs to get beat up by the Good Marines, it's like expecting Cobra toys to save G.I Joe toyline.


correction, we are the saturday cartoon villain that beats up the plucky imperial sidekicks and xenos, to facilitate the heroism of the marines, especially the new all improved marines +1.
R&H are there to make the other Imperial factions win against something.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 11:05:57


Post by: A.T.


 Ordana wrote:
SoB didn't sell well, and GW dragged their feet on making new SoB models because they were not selling well.
When they eventually got around to it they sold very well.

Turns out that stuff doesn't sell if you neglect it.
It's just their lot in life. It was always the joke that a new sisters dex heralded the end of an edition, and that new sisters models would be a sign of the end times... (or global pandemic, close enough).


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 11:41:11


Post by: Karol


Cronch wrote:
All I'm hearing is GW put all their eggs in one basket, and will collapse as soon as everyone has a marine army.

Considering this will take them more then a decade all they have to do is just to reinvent the primaris. Assault heavy intercessors, intercessors getting access to las talons, multi melta and hellblasters along side a new box for the unit. More faction specific primaris, grey hunter intercessors and blood claw reavers, new raven wing outridder bikes etc. There is a practicaly endless well to get new updates for marines.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 12:27:09


Post by: Cronch


Karol wrote:
Cronch wrote:
All I'm hearing is GW put all their eggs in one basket, and will collapse as soon as everyone has a marine army.

Considering this will take them more then a decade all they have to do is just to reinvent the primaris. Assault heavy intercessors, intercessors getting access to las talons, multi melta and hellblasters along side a new box for the unit. More faction specific primaris, grey hunter intercessors and blood claw reavers, new raven wing outridder bikes etc. There is a practicaly endless well to get new updates for marines.

So you really want that MarineHammer experience, huh?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 12:57:37


Post by: Karol


Well what other option is there to pick? Tau, eldar, ork, necron hammer? With smaller number of players, and possible more oppressing mechanics. If I would have to pick from all the armies in w40k, then a SoB or marine hammer seems to be the best option to have. And it so happens that both SoB and many versions of marines are fun to play with right now.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 13:13:00


Post by: Cronch


Here's the thing though, there WAS a time when 40k wasn't all marines all the time. And GW was fine, and GW was expanding, and GW was producing a ton of models and games. Marines always played a big part in 40k advertising, but they used to be just another army in the game. It's GW's own fault for betting everything on marines. And you know what? As a customer, I do NOT give a single solitary damn about GW profits. Not my business to care how they will do it.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 14:07:52


Post by: Crispy78


 Jidmah wrote:
How about they release an codex for World Eaters or Emperor's Children with a full model line behind it to sell a completely new marine army to everyone who already has one?


One of my armies is WE, and I have very mixed feelings about potentially getting a dedicated codex. While dedicated support and presumably new rules and models would be nice, I just know that GW will make them into a one-dimensional bloodthirsty melee army. Then I'll have to lose my Havocs, my Obliterators, etc...


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 14:10:33


Post by: Nurglitch


It's weird to see GW trying to wrap all the variations on Space Marines in one book and then split off single units from other books into their own armies.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 14:17:54


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Nurglitch wrote:
It's weird to see GW trying to wrap all the variations on Space Marines in one book and then split off single units from other books into their own armies.


What units are you refering to?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 14:43:59


Post by: Tip4tap


Cronch wrote:
Here's the thing though, there WAS a time when 40k wasn't all marines all the time. And GW was fine, and GW was expanding, and GW was producing a ton of models and games. Marines always played a big part in 40k advertising, but they used to be just another army in the game. It's GW's own fault for betting everything on marines. And you know what? As a customer, I do NOT give a single solitary damn about GW profits. Not my business to care how they will do it.



Marines have always been popular. Especially among younger 40k players or people who are just starting out. I remember back in 2015/2016 my local GW did loads of introduction days (mainly for kids or teens looking to get into the hobby) and they would always be building, painting and playing with Space Marines. So even then GW was trying to entice people into 40k with marine's. To say GW was fine and was expanding and producing a ton of models and games is just plainly incorrect (depending on how far back you go that is). They had one game which was thriving 40k and one game which was hemorrhaging them money. So much money in fact they had to completely re-make that game.

Yes they have bet a lot on space marines and that has worked out. Massively in fact. For you as someone who is a customer (I presume you also play the game) you should give a solitary damn about GW's profits. No profits no game.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 15:07:38


Post by: DominayTrix


New/good rules inspire me to play, new/good models inspire me to build, and lack of both inspires me to work on my backlog. Helps me bring my EC to 2k despite my sonic dreads being squatted.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 15:14:32


Post by: dogboy311


Cronch wrote:
Here's the thing though, there WAS a time when 40k wasn't all marines all the time. And GW was fine, and GW was expanding, and GW was producing a ton of models and games. Marines always played a big part in 40k advertising, but they used to be just another army in the game. It's GW's own fault for betting everything on marines. And you know what? As a customer, I do NOT give a single solitary damn about GW profits. Not my business to care how they will do it.




And at that time was the company expanding into multiple mediums. I’ve been playing for a long time as well. And never have I been more happy with GW. Marvel comics, giant action figures, soon to be launched TV shows. Space marine did this, because the larger part of GW gaming community think space marines are cool.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 15:23:42


Post by: Da Boss


Yeah it certainly seems that the marine fans outnumber those who are sick of marines.

That doesn't make the POV of people who are sick of marines invalid though, and neither does the profits of GW growing or shrinking.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 17:37:56


Post by: Cronch


dogboy311 wrote:
Cronch wrote:
Here's the thing though, there WAS a time when 40k wasn't all marines all the time. And GW was fine, and GW was expanding, and GW was producing a ton of models and games. Marines always played a big part in 40k advertising, but they used to be just another army in the game. It's GW's own fault for betting everything on marines. And you know what? As a customer, I do NOT give a single solitary damn about GW profits. Not my business to care how they will do it.




And at that time was the company expanding into multiple mediums. I’ve been playing for a long time as well. And never have I been more happy with GW. Marvel comics, giant action figures, soon to be launched TV shows. Space marine did this, because the larger part of GW gaming community think space marines are cool.

I've read the marvel comics, and it's much, much worse than anything published back in the Warhammer Monthly days. As far as I see it, you're just making more arguments against marines, since they fuel more marines tie-ins. Which is fine, but maybe start warning any person wanting to play 40k that if they're not marine players, they're here to be punching bags for them.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 18:10:04


Post by: dogboy311


Cronch wrote:
dogboy311 wrote:
Cronch wrote:
Here's the thing though, there WAS a time when 40k wasn't all marines all the time. And GW was fine, and GW was expanding, and GW was producing a ton of models and games. Marines always played a big part in 40k advertising, but they used to be just another army in the game. It's GW's own fault for betting everything on marines. And you know what? As a customer, I do NOT give a single solitary damn about GW profits. Not my business to care how they will do it.




And at that time was the company expanding into multiple mediums. I’ve been playing for a long time as well. And never have I been more happy with GW. Marvel comics, giant action figures, soon to be launched TV shows. Space marine did this, because the larger part of GW gaming community think space marines are cool.

I've read the marvel comics, and it's much, much worse than anything published back in the Warhammer Monthly days. As far as I see it, you're just making more arguments against marines, since they fuel more marines tie-ins. Which is fine, but maybe start warning any person wanting to play 40k that if they're not marine players, they're here to be punching bags for them, so they better bite down, cause that marine train is going in dry.



So you don’t like the comic,, that doesn’t meant it’s not good, you read it with a perspective of it was gonna suck already. Lol. Then go and use the back in my day argument,
So why don’t you just sell your models and find a new game or hobby. Like if consider playing a table top miniature game, the same as non consensual sex, Maybe you really need a too quit.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 18:20:09


Post by: Da Boss


I think it's fair to say that people who go in wanting to play Xenos factions should be aware that they will be 4th class gamers, behind Chaos in Second class, Other Imperial in Third class and Marines in First class.

Then they can make an informed decision about which faction to play and whether it will bother them. It might be that few people are bothered by being less valued customers. It doesn't bother me any more, because I have adjusted my expectations, but I can see why it still bothers people who expect or wish for more equal treatment.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 18:21:33


Post by: Karol


Nurglitch wrote:
It's weird to see GW trying to wrap all the variations on Space Marines in one book and then split off single units from other books into their own armies.


what is wierd about that, they forced every sw/ba/da/dw player who in the past would have bought one book, to buy two books. If it was possible they would have split it in to three.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/26 19:21:24


Post by: Dysartes


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:
It's weird to see GW trying to wrap all the variations on Space Marines in one book and then split off single units from other books into their own armies.


What units are you refering to?


My guess would be Rubrics and Plague Marines so far, with an eye toward Noise Marines and Khorne Berzerkers in the future.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/27 08:32:24


Post by: Hecaton


 Da Boss wrote:
I think it's fair to say that people who go in wanting to play Xenos factions should be aware that they will be 4th class gamers, behind Chaos in Second class, Other Imperial in Third class and Marines in First class.

Then they can make an informed decision about which faction to play and whether it will bother them. It might be that few people are bothered by being less valued customers. It doesn't bother me any more, because I have adjusted my expectations, but I can see why it still bothers people who expect or wish for more equal treatment.


40k thrives on the perception that those players *aren't* second-class customers. If they straight up said "the faction you like is an afterthought" they'd lose customers.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/27 13:50:57


Post by: BlackoCatto


No the comic is rather bad and has some really bad lore elements that are just terrible.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/27 14:03:48


Post by: Da Boss


Hecaton wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
I think it's fair to say that people who go in wanting to play Xenos factions should be aware that they will be 4th class gamers, behind Chaos in Second class, Other Imperial in Third class and Marines in First class.

Then they can make an informed decision about which faction to play and whether it will bother them. It might be that few people are bothered by being less valued customers. It doesn't bother me any more, because I have adjusted my expectations, but I can see why it still bothers people who expect or wish for more equal treatment.


40k thrives on the perception that those players *aren't* second-class customers. If they straight up said "the faction you like is an afterthought" they'd lose customers.


Yeah I agree, to a certain extent GW relies on deceiving people interested in Xenos factions into believing they'll be treated in a comparable way to other factions when in fact they will receive far fewer model and rule updates and almost no attention in novels except as punching bags for space marines.

I think a lot of players kind of do that too, because they want to encourage more Xenos players because there are not enough of them. Probably we should be telling people to expect less from the game if you are playing Xenos because the majority of players want to have a Marine power fantasy and for marines to get more attention, as we see in these threads.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/27 17:12:31


Post by: Mezmorki


Let's do a thought experiment:

Suppose for a moment that every army was equally popular - and let's suppose there were 10 different armies / model ranges and each range had 10 different model kits for sale. Essentially, we're talking about 100 different kits, with there being some variance in the popularity of kits within a given army. By and large, if these are equally popular (i.e. selling equally well) then GW needs to be producing roughly equal quantities of 100 different kits and also dividing the marketing efforts across 10 different model ranges to keep them going. GW would make a certain amount of money in this situation.

The calculus that I'm sure GW is doing is recognizing that they can make more money (maybe substantially more), while still producing 100 different kits, by making one model range sell vastly more and thus take advantage of economies of scale in production and allow for a concentration of marketing resources around the most iconic "easy to sell" range. This is course is space marines. If space marines are 50%+ of the revenue (I have no idea what it is, just guessing), then the more of these that can be sold at lower and lower marginal production costs, the greater the return. Plus, they are the vehicle for bringing in new players, by and large.

As for the non-marines: the worst thing that can happen is over producing quantities of a good that don't sell. You're spending all this money on design, production, shipping, warehousing, etc. and if you can't sell through a production run it can be a big drain on profitability. The less risky approach is to under produce and be fairly sure the product will sell through. You might lose profits on the back end (i.e. if it turns out there is more demand than produce available), but at least your more certain of hitting your profit target

Take these two considerations together: GW likely realizes that marines need, at least in theory, non-marine armies to fight order to sell the setting and IP that marines symbolize. Marines fighting the filthy xenos and all of that. But this does mean that non-marine factions are getting, intentionally, less love than the poster-boys of the game, because that's how the profitability goals work out.

It's not a particularly great situation - but I think it's the reality we all have to live with, for better or worse.




Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/27 17:19:08


Post by: Da Boss


Privateer Press managed to do what you describe for a while. They had simultaneous updates for all factions and they maintained 8 main factions and a variety of smaller factions.

But eventually the SKU bloat got to be too much, and it was too difficult for shops to both display all the available minis and keep a stable supply of them (in Europe at least). GW have similar problems but they are possibly less acute because of so much being focused on one faction.

And GW are certainly doing better than PP, for all that I preferred the PP method of doing things. Often things that are customer friendly are less successful.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/27 17:26:17


Post by: Karol


Take these two considerations together: GW likely realizes that marines need, at least in theory, non-marine armies to fight order to sell the setting and IP that marines symbolize. Marines fighting the filthy xenos and all of that. But this does mean that non-marine factions are getting, intentionally, less love than the poster-boys of the game, because that's how the profitability goals work out.

But is it really true? If marine rules are different enough codex to codex, producing different ways of playing, then you don't really need to play vs orks to have a different expiriance. If my lets say BT army, is different from a DA one,a SW one and BA one, then all 4 of us could play vs each other and have difference games each time. We don't really need an army, specially one spcecialised to kill marines specifically to have fun. Of course selling non marines can be good for GW, just to plug holes between marine and AoS books, specially when the armies are historically important to w40k. I don't see GW squating orks or IG anytime soon, but I don't think there is a have to behind it all. GW could give good updates, which they clearly don't considering the DG and necron book, to marines, and still have a working company with good sells.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/27 17:50:43


Post by: Cronch


 Da Boss wrote:
Privateer Press managed to do what you describe for a while. They had simultaneous updates for all factions and they maintained 8 main factions and a variety of smaller factions.

But eventually the SKU bloat got to be too much, and it was too difficult for shops to both display all the available minis and keep a stable supply of them (in Europe at least). GW have similar problems but they are possibly less acute because of so much being focused on one faction.

And GW are certainly doing better than PP, for all that I preferred the PP method of doing things. Often things that are customer friendly are less successful.

GW moved a LOT of kits direct only. That's also why most new kits build two units , or two variants of a unit at least.
And PP died not because of SKU bloat, but because of very stupid distribution choices (good luck trying to get restock of ANYTHING if your store is not in the US) and new edition launch mismanaged so completely it rivals AoS launch.

Anyway, moral of the story- if your friends want to get into 40k with not-marines, stop them, it'll save their dignity and wallets. Let marines play other marines, just as GW intended.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/27 17:52:15


Post by: Sim-Life


 Da Boss wrote:
Privateer Press managed to do what you describe for a while. They had simultaneous updates for all factions and they maintained 8 main factions and a variety of smaller factions.

But eventually the SKU bloat got to be too much, and it was too difficult for shops to both display all the available minis and keep a stable supply of them (in Europe at least). GW have similar problems but they are possibly less acute because of so much being focused on one faction.

And GW are certainly doing better than PP, for all that I preferred the PP method of doing things. Often things that are customer friendly are less successful.


PP are doing badly because of terrible mismanagement, not because of their SKU bloat (though that was an issue). I would actually argue that their changes to their release structure in Mk3 is far, far worse than what they were doing. For the year or two so I played Mk3 I never saw people getting excited over the "theme wave" style of release having a CID then a release as they did over the grouped releases for everyone at once, but I could talk for days about how bad Mk3 Warmahordes was managed.

As for the topic at hand, I don't have an issue with GW releasing too many Marines, its what makes them their money. I have an issue with them half assing the rules however. It feels like they're just shoving kits out the door and not really bothering about making the game fun or interesting. The rules team seems to be under the impression that more book keeping = more strategic depth. They even added what effectively is a Book Keeping Phase to the game. I don't play 40k for tournament level strategic depth because GW are incapable of making that game. I'd rather GW stuck to their strengths and made the game fun.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/27 18:07:29


Post by: ccs


Cronch wrote:

Anyway, moral of the story- if your friends want to get into 40k with not-marines, stop them, it'll save their dignity and wallets. Let marines play other marines, just as GW intended.


Or you could just recommend that non-marines - be they xenos, Guard, SoB, Admech, Chaos etc just fight each other. That'd save their dignity as well AND still part them from their $$$.

But as a Necron player here in 9th? Sure, I'm annoyed that my Monolith got made a LoW & has no defensive special rules. But I'm not living in any fear of the SM codex, or its supplements, & I'm not threatened by ongoing SM releases.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/27 18:13:39


Post by: Da Boss


I'd just make it clear that non-Marines are second class by design and let people pick what they want with full understanding. Like you can explain the differences in the number of releases, model support, support in the fiction and how you might have to wait a long time for your rules to be updated and when they are there is a reasonably high chance the designer doing it won't care about the project very much.

If people aren't bothered by all of that then they might well enjoy collecting, painting and playing non-Marine factions, but I think it's honest to let them know what it's going to be like.

I enjoy things a lot more since I have lowered my expectations and don't expect anything other than this from GW, I'm not annoyed about releases or whatever any more.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/28 08:49:58


Post by: KingmanHighborn


 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I can appreciate that feeling of something being off with the current edition. Though I'll need see how it goes or what the inevitable 10th will be like in like a year when it happens.


^ This. 10th will be out in 2022 probably 2024 will be 11th, and so on and so on, and I'm burned out chasing rulebooks, codexes, the new 'must have' units, etc.

Marines play a large part of that. Primarius has been a big load of 'meh' for me. (Hey some people like them, more power to them, love what you love, just not for me.)
I haven't had FUN, PLAYING the game in years though, 8th and 9th have been just bad. I miss templates, I miss simple Force Org charts of an army being 1 HQ, 2-6 Troops, 0-3 Elite, FA, and Heavy. (Basically I miss 3rd edition.)

This formation, that detachment, this special thingie, etc. Is not only confusing but takes the fun out of making a balanced list and is more the playground of spammers and WAAC.

Right now, I'm also happy with my Sisters of Battle collection, I'm happy with my Chaos, there's a few things I kinda want but don't really need. I have an 'nearly' all unpainted Space Marine army with some cool bear motifs I planned on doing, but I've ran out of drive to finish it, and really thinking about selling it if I can task myself to photograph it all and wash my hands of it.

Then there's the fact that X-wing, Gaslands, Dropzone, and Frostgrave are more fun and inspiring to do stuff with. X-wing and Gaslands especially so because unlike 40K there's a a thriving community of X-wing players here where I live, Gaslands is growing, annnnnnd.... there's no one left near me that PLAYS 40K.

Anyway that's my 2 cents of rambling.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/28 09:04:42


Post by: wuestenfux


At the extremes, tourney organizers could encourage non-Marine players to attend the tourney maybe with a monetary incentive.
In this way, Marine players would have more attendees to push around. Rant over.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/28 14:12:03


Post by: the_scotsman


Im honestly still just curious about that sisters of battle claim. Whered they say it was the best selling kit?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/28 22:05:04


Post by: Nurglitch


I'd believe it, only because you can make 3x units out of the box. It comes with four of each special weapon, two heavy weapons (which you can use for Retributors if you combine two boxes), four combi-weapons, so many heads, and two giant banners/etc. You could probably make a decent-sized sister's army just out of that box.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/28 22:39:51


Post by: Gadzilla666


Nurglitch wrote:
I'd believe it, only because you can make 3x units out of the box. It comes with four of each special weapon, two heavy weapons (which you can use for Retributors if you combine two boxes), four combi-weapons, so many heads, and two giant banners/etc. You could probably make a decent-sized sister's army just out of that box.

Four of each special weapon and four combi-weapons?

*looks at contents of CSM and Chaos Terminators sprues*


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/28 22:49:20


Post by: Racerguy180


The battle sister box is basically how every troop box should be. Lots of options and variety coupled with an additional auxiliary infantry box.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/02/28 23:27:15


Post by: jeff white


I liked that kit.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/01 03:18:18


Post by: warmaster21


though oddly enough the heavy weapon/backpacks in the sob box is different from the Retributor box, square/round peg/holes to be just enough of an donkey-cave to make it harder to mix.

It is a shame that the only way to get the sister with the flamethrower and burnt corpse was the launch battleforce that only came with 1.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/01 04:40:16


Post by: catbarf


 Mezmorki wrote:
The calculus that I'm sure GW is doing is recognizing that they can make more money (maybe substantially more), while still producing 100 different kits, by making one model range sell vastly more and thus take advantage of economies of scale in production and allow for a concentration of marketing resources around the most iconic "easy to sell" range. This is course is space marines. If space marines are 50%+ of the revenue (I have no idea what it is, just guessing), then the more of these that can be sold at lower and lower marginal production costs, the greater the return. Plus, they are the vehicle for bringing in new players, by and large.


There's no economy of scale advantage in favoring some kits over others, though.

If you have to do the R&D and mold-making on 100 kits, it doesn't matter if they all sell equally or if one kit sells hundreds of thousands and another sells a hundred copies; your sunk cost is the same. And GW doesn't realistically take a hit on stocking poorly-sold items, because those are all direct-only and manufactured in limited production runs, often with significant time between runs.

If GW were making Marines in plastic and other factions in resin then I'd totally agree, because with resin the economies of scale favor low sales and with plastic they favor high sales. But if everything's plastic (or headed in that direction), then GW has no reason to prefer if one mold is getting shoved in the machine more often than others.

I'd wager it's just a simple short-term focus on supporting the model line that sells and ignoring the ones that don't. GW's shown, multiple times now, that they don't understand this feedback loop, and seem genuinely surprised every time an unpopular faction gets new releases and suddenly becomes popular.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/01 12:50:43


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:
I'd believe it, only because you can make 3x units out of the box. It comes with four of each special weapon, two heavy weapons (which you can use for Retributors if you combine two boxes), four combi-weapons, so many heads, and two giant banners/etc. You could probably make a decent-sized sister's army just out of that box.

Four of each special weapon and four combi-weapons?

*looks at contents of CSM and Chaos Terminators sprues*

As a fellow CSM player i feel like this iron warrior after getting told of by that loyalist scum.

Spoiler:



Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/01 13:03:27


Post by: Nurglitch


On the bright side, I've never assembled a GW kit like that before with the instructions open on my lap and staring carefully at the sprue to make sure I cut out the right bits. With SMs I would have chopped out all the bits and put them together however, whereas with the AS the process was way more careful since specific bits only fit with other specific bits. I'm deeply envious of how well the models fit together though.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/01 13:16:44


Post by: the_scotsman


 warmaster21 wrote:
though oddly enough the heavy weapon/backpacks in the sob box is different from the Retributor box, square/round peg/holes to be just enough of an donkey-cave to make it harder to mix.

It is a shame that the only way to get the sister with the flamethrower and burnt corpse was the launch battleforce that only came with 1.


its funny because I specifically recall anger that that sister was going to be mandatory in every box of sisters.

Weird to me that GW would cut the sprues for that box and then not offer it as a SC box ala the SC Chaos Space marines/SC Phobos Marines bundles.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/01 22:51:42


Post by: CEO Kasen


 Da Boss wrote:
I'd just make it clear that non-Marines are second class by design and let people pick what they want with full understanding. Like you can explain the differences in the number of releases, model support, support in the fiction and how you might have to wait a long time for your rules to be updated and when they are there is a reasonably high chance the designer doing it won't care about the project very much.

If people aren't bothered by all of that then they might well enjoy collecting, painting and playing non-Marine factions, but I think it's honest to let them know what it's going to be like.

I enjoy things a lot more since I have lowered my expectations and don't expect anything other than this from GW, I'm not annoyed about releases or whatever any more.


For the love of Tzeentch's n-dimensional scrotum, this is where we are with this stupid Marine crap: We've gone past angry and are at resigned, broken depression edging to the accepting fifth stage of grief.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/01 23:29:08


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Maybe that is the best place to be right now.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/02 01:34:09


Post by: stratigo


tneva82 wrote:
drbored wrote:
I'm wondering if anyone else has this feeling.


Does anyone else feel this way?


Me. Focus has been moving from 40k to aos due to marine oppressive(compare to aos no faction dominates releases as badly) and rules being more and more extreme killy comboing.


AoS is a game defined by extreme kill combos of stacked buffs

You can take 160 points of skinks and turn them into terminators with access to like 8 different stacking buffs.

I mean, I think 40k dropped the ball hard on the dark angel release with power balance, but AoS is languishing in the seraphon dark ages with no end in sight


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
I think AoS shows us what 40k would be like if Space Marines weren't so popular.
It very much seemed like Stormcast were set up to be Fantasy Space Marines. The approach in lore, models, and advertising very closely followed what GW had been doing with Space Marines. Their release wave matched Primaris very closely.

But Stormcast failed to capture the audience in the way GW perhaps hoped, and so they have diversified their releases.

It's actually in GW's interest for every player to play the same faction. Because that way every kit GW puts out to that faction sells to everyone.
Why spend design resources making a Dark Eldar sculpt and sell to 5% of the playerbase when you can spend less resources (due to commonality of sculpts) and sell to 50% of the playerbase?


Watch out for the LRL though. They're getting a marine release (eg, big box half a codex, 8 months later, new wave and full codex. And, heck, they still got 2 temples to go).

Someone in GW really likes elves.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/02 01:58:28


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Yeaaahhh... that's not an accurate depiction of the current circumstances in AoS.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/02 03:40:44


Post by: ccs


stratigo wrote:


Watch out for the LRL though. They're getting a marine release (eg, big box half a codex, 8 months later, new wave and full codex. And, heck, they still got 2 temples to go).

Someone in GW really likes elves.


They've always loved elves.
•High Elves
•Wood Elves
•Dark Elves
•Eldar
•Dark Eldar
•Harlequins
•Yukari
•Idoneth
•Luminith Realm Lord's
•and to a degree Daughters of Kaine

Since the Lumiith are brand new & essentially only have about 1/2 an actual army, + GWs love of Elves, is it any wonder theyre being expanded upon a mere year after launch?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/02 04:09:35


Post by: stratigo


 CEO Kasen wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
I'd just make it clear that non-Marines are second class by design and let people pick what they want with full understanding. Like you can explain the differences in the number of releases, model support, support in the fiction and how you might have to wait a long time for your rules to be updated and when they are there is a reasonably high chance the designer doing it won't care about the project very much.

If people aren't bothered by all of that then they might well enjoy collecting, painting and playing non-Marine factions, but I think it's honest to let them know what it's going to be like.

I enjoy things a lot more since I have lowered my expectations and don't expect anything other than this from GW, I'm not annoyed about releases or whatever any more.


For the love of Tzeentch's n-dimensional scrotum, this is where we are with this stupid Marine crap: We've gone past angry and are at resigned, broken depression edging to the accepting fifth stage of grief.


I mean, having played marines, I'd feel more like an utter fool keeping up with them now with the endless release cycle. I only have so much hobby fund. But more importantly, only so much hobby time. Even under covid I am still working through a tremendous backlog of models


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
stratigo wrote:


Watch out for the LRL though. They're getting a marine release (eg, big box half a codex, 8 months later, new wave and full codex. And, heck, they still got 2 temples to go).

Someone in GW really likes elves.


They've always loved elves.
•High Elves
•Wood Elves
•Dark Elves
•Eldar
•Dark Eldar
•Harlequins
•Yukari
•Idoneth
•Luminith Realm Lord's
•and to a degree Daughters of Kaine

Since the Lumiith are brand new & essentially only have about 1/2 an actual army, + GWs love of Elves, is it any wonder theyre being expanded upon a mere year after launch?


I mean, it is, because this is something GW has only ever done for their flagships before, marines and SCE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Yeaaahhh... that's not an accurate depiction of the current circumstances in AoS.


Buff stacked skinks and Kroak are the meta lead currently.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/02 04:15:49


Post by: Insectum7


stratigo wrote:
 CEO Kasen wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
I'd just make it clear that non-Marines are second class by design and let people pick what they want with full understanding. Like you can explain the differences in the number of releases, model support, support in the fiction and how you might have to wait a long time for your rules to be updated and when they are there is a reasonably high chance the designer doing it won't care about the project very much.

If people aren't bothered by all of that then they might well enjoy collecting, painting and playing non-Marine factions, but I think it's honest to let them know what it's going to be like.

I enjoy things a lot more since I have lowered my expectations and don't expect anything other than this from GW, I'm not annoyed about releases or whatever any more.


For the love of Tzeentch's n-dimensional scrotum, this is where we are with this stupid Marine crap: We've gone past angry and are at resigned, broken depression edging to the accepting fifth stage of grief.


I mean, having played marines, I'd feel more like an utter fool keeping up with them now with the endless release cycle. I only have so much hobby fund. But more importantly, only so much hobby time. Even under covid I am still working through a tremendous backlog of models


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
stratigo wrote:


Watch out for the LRL though. They're getting a marine release (eg, big box half a codex, 8 months later, new wave and full codex. And, heck, they still got 2 temples to go).

Someone in GW really likes elves.


They've always loved elves.
•High Elves
•Wood Elves
•Dark Elves
•Eldar
•Dark Eldar
•Harlequins
•Yukari
•Idoneth
•Luminith Realm Lord's
•and to a degree Daughters of Kaine

Since the Lumiith are brand new & essentially only have about 1/2 an actual army, + GWs love of Elves, is it any wonder theyre being expanded upon a mere year after launch?


I mean, it is, because this is something GW has only ever done for their flagships before, marines and SCE.

^No joke!

It's ridiculous seeing the cycle of units being released and pushed/nerfed. I'm glad I have a very useable standing army where all I have to do is a couple weapon swaps to adjust. All I feel I have to do for 9th is paint a few more Multimelta dudes, and I've had spares of them kicking around for years.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/02 09:11:57


Post by: AngryAngel80


Nurglitch wrote:
On the bright side, I've never assembled a GW kit like that before with the instructions open on my lap and staring carefully at the sprue to make sure I cut out the right bits. With SMs I would have chopped out all the bits and put them together however, whereas with the AS the process was way more careful since specific bits only fit with other specific bits. I'm deeply envious of how well the models fit together though.


I build my GW models much like how you would open the lament configuration from Hellraiser. Naked and sweaty in a dark room by candlelight, sweat pouring down my brow because I may arm them wrong. As I complete the squad assembly GW workers begin to brick up my windows and cut me off from the outside world. Then the model is done, but it moves and chains shoot out of it. Smashing all of my models to pieces because I made them wrong, GW already changed their legal load out from what was in the build instructions. Then they drag me to hades. It's pretty rough building GW models these days.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/02 11:08:35


Post by: dan2026


I just want a redo of the Craftworld model range to actually bring them into the 21st century.

Why is that so much to ask?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/02 11:27:35


Post by: endlesswaltz123


I don't mean this to sound as snarky as it may come across because I genuinely believe that Eldar deserve a big update release, but just like sisters of battle, who's fans were also very vocal (and they deserved their update also), my main motivation is so I don't have to keeping reading posts by (justifiably frustrated) Eldar fans saying they want an update....

And lets get guard infantry updated after as well, then all finecast models get updates, then marines can have a release again... Tyranids still look great so don't need it, and Tau don't and will never deserve it for being a dirty boring gun line faction.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/02 11:30:35


Post by: kirotheavenger


Tau weren't always a dirty boring gunline faction, that really started in 6th when they added stuff like Fireblades and Riptides.

I want Tau to get an update specifically so that they can move away from being a dirty gunline faction.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/02 11:32:05


Post by: Karol


Was there ever a time, where a faction was in a bad state, and its player collectively decided that they don't want any rules or model support ?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/02 11:34:16


Post by: kirotheavenger


The playerbase has never collectively decided anything so you've rather set us up to fail there


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/02 13:55:39


Post by: Karol


 kirotheavenger wrote:
The playerbase has never collectively decided anything so you've rather set us up to fail there


I ain't sure about that, I don't think there is many people, who actually play the game, that think that tau right now are good right now. I think that even people who don't like tau and tau players in general, can't say the army is good right now.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/02 14:11:39


Post by: the_scotsman


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Tau weren't always a dirty boring gunline faction, that really started in 6th when they added stuff like Fireblades and Riptides.

I want Tau to get an update specifically so that they can move away from being a dirty gunline faction.


Yep, when I first started playing the game, my friend who played Tau introduced them as "a faction with two alien races working together, one is good at shooting and bad at melee, and one is good at melee and bad at shooting" - referring to kroot and tau.

But Kroot only lost models and all new models were just bigger and bigger tau things, to the point where there's just not anything to the kroot and the scale of the game has completely utterly outstripped them and their monster thing is equal to like one space marine intercessor in melee.

Personally - if you asked me - I would have reworked the game a bit in 9th to allow all factions to participate in all phases. Retool the Psychic Phase into the Command Phase and use that as a way to squeeze boring auras out of the game, and making the normal job of various HQ units to be doing special actions in the Command Phase right alongside psykers doing their thing. Tau have Fireblades, Commanders, Ethereals and Shapers, all of which could be doing different stuff in various phases, and maybe Mont'ka could be retooled to something like "units affected by a Montka order forgo their shooting in the shooting phase, and instead all their weapons become the type "Melee" during the Fight phase of this turn - allowing Tau to actually charge in and turn over objectives.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/02 20:08:19


Post by: NinthMusketeer


stratigo wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Yeaaahhh... that's not an accurate depiction of the current circumstances in AoS.


Buff stacked skinks and Kroak are the meta lead currently.
Precisely; it puts them in the lead because other armies can't do it. AoS, like 40k, is not defined by which army is top of the tourney rankings--many players confusion and frustration with the state of affairs comes from their belief that such is the case. It is much more complicated than that.

After all, it isn't like all of these new marine models are dominating the meta. A lot of them are pretty tame all things considered.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/02 22:53:26


Post by: CEO Kasen


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
AoS, like 40k, is not defined by which army is top of the tourney rankings--many players confusion and frustration with the state of affairs comes from their belief that such is the case. It is much more complicated than that.

After all, it isn't like all of these new marine models are dominating the meta. A lot of them are pretty tame all things considered.


Indeed, we're not in a balance state where Marines are utterly dominating the top competitive tables anymore. In fact, thinking about it, top competitive tables are probably where Marines are the least problematic; it's everywhere else and in so many other ways that they're a problem.

After all, what kind of final-strawed my hope/patience that 40K was going to get any better was the Hounds of Morkai/Butterball Turret release, and it's definitely not because those two units were going to be tournament winners.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/03 07:07:20


Post by: AngryAngel80


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Tau weren't always a dirty boring gunline faction, that really started in 6th when they added stuff like Fireblades and Riptides.

I want Tau to get an update specifically so that they can move away from being a dirty gunline faction.



See, this is some truth. Tau used to feel so much better as a really mobile, mechanized and suit driven force that felt very good to use even if they could be super annoying used correctly.

The boring gun line Tau isn't all they've ever been, it's just what they've been pressed to become. Much like Guard aren't always a boring gun line but some army factions and unit selections shoved them to be a static gun line. It's like motion blur in video games, very few if any players like it but all designers think it's amazingly cool to put in. In this case almost all players find gunlines boring and dreadful but then the designers make some potent or the only good build be a static gun line. It's really quite perplexing.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/03 08:16:39


Post by: wuestenfux


I just want a redo of the Craftworld model range to actually bring them into the 21st century.

And you really mean 21st century?
They live in a different spot not traceable by mankind.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/03 08:55:57


Post by: kirotheavenger


 AngryAngel80 wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Tau weren't always a dirty boring gunline faction, that really started in 6th when they added stuff like Fireblades and Riptides.

I want Tau to get an update specifically so that they can move away from being a dirty gunline faction.



See, this is some truth. Tau used to feel so much better as a really mobile, mechanized and suit driven force that felt very good to use even if they could be super annoying used correctly.

The boring gun line Tau isn't all they've ever been, it's just what they've been pressed to become. Much like Guard aren't always a boring gun line but some army factions and unit selections shoved them to be a static gun line. It's like motion blur in video games, very few if any players like it but all designers think it's amazingly cool to put in. In this case almost all players find gunlines boring and dreadful but then the designers make some potent or the only good build be a static gun line. It's really quite perplexing.

I totally agree.

I think the reason the writers keep creating gunlines is that they work under the mistaken ideal that movement is very important to the game. So they think reducing mobility is a strong tradeoff for more firepower. In reality it's not much of a tradeoff, and so you get abilities and rules allowing very high firepower for just staying still.

I stopped playing my Tau shortly after 6th edition, because they weren't the army I loved anymore. I finally lost hope in waiting for them to be restored and sold them over christmas (partly driven by a house move, and the fact the models don't meet my current painting ability )


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/03 09:08:31


Post by: AngryAngel80


I hear that, I still have some Tau but haven't added to them in a loooonnnggggg time. They ever bring back the mobile strike force feel for them and I'm all over it.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/03 09:17:57


Post by: InVerno


I just want to not feel embarassed when i field my crafwolrd army vs a SM

seriusly they look like they are from two different games


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/03 09:33:36


Post by: ccs


 InVerno wrote:
I just want to not feel embarassed when i field my crafwolrd army vs a SM

seriusly they look like they are from two different games


They are. One is likely from 8th/9th edition. The other is from a much better version of the game.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/03 11:12:36


Post by: wuestenfux


My GK and BA are on hold for different reasons.
I'll wait for the new GK codex and BA doesn't interest me that much atm.

I'm focusing on the new Necrons where I have been rather successful in tourneys in the 6th and 7th ed.
Beating Marines with Necrons is ambitious but doable.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/03 12:25:13


Post by: addnid


 kirotheavenger wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Tau weren't always a dirty boring gunline faction, that really started in 6th when they added stuff like Fireblades and Riptides.

I want Tau to get an update specifically so that they can move away from being a dirty gunline faction.



See, this is some truth. Tau used to feel so much better as a really mobile, mechanized and suit driven force that felt very good to use even if they could be super annoying used correctly.

The boring gun line Tau isn't all they've ever been, it's just what they've been pressed to become. Much like Guard aren't always a boring gun line but some army factions and unit selections shoved them to be a static gun line. It's like motion blur in video games, very few if any players like it but all designers think it's amazingly cool to put in. In this case almost all players find gunlines boring and dreadful but then the designers make some potent or the only good build be a static gun line. It's really quite perplexing.

I totally agree.

I think the reason the writers keep creating gunlines is that they work under the mistaken ideal that movement is very important to the game. So they think reducing mobility is a strong tradeoff for more firepower. In reality it's not much of a tradeoff, and so you get abilities and rules allowing very high firepower for just staying still.

I stopped playing my Tau shortly after 6th edition, because they weren't the army I loved anymore. I finally lost hope in waiting for them to be restored and sold them over christmas (partly driven by a house move, and the fact the models don't meet my current painting ability )


I sold my tau for exactly the same reasons and at exactly the same time (Xmas 2020), I tried playing them a bit for 7th ed, but never played them in 8th (saviour protocols has been the worst rule of all 8th ed). I don't think I will ever regret selling my Tau, the models are just horrible by the current standards. Even the recent models, I mean, at this point the whole Tau concept is just horrible, rules AND models. Unlike GSC (who I also own), who need the complete re-write for the rules concept, but have decent models


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/03 12:40:00


Post by: Tygre


I think part of the mobility vs firepower problem is how crammed the table is with modern armies. You can't manoeuvre away from firepower as you will run into someone else. And you can't use mobility to concentrate firepower as you are already have as much firepower per square inch anyway.

So pick one...
- Smaller armies, and have to leave some toys behind.
- Larger tables, but logistically and practically difficult.
- As is, and have to deal with the lack of mobility options.

I have a feeling GW staff and testers might use smaller armies. Quicker to test smaller games?


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/03 12:53:12


Post by: NinthMusketeer


The smaller board size has indeed turned out to be the problem people were afraid of.


Losing Interest in 40k, thanks to Space Marines @ 2021/03/03 13:20:42


Post by: kodos


Tygre wrote:
I have a feeling GW staff and testers might use smaller armies. Quicker to test smaller games?

40k is designed to be played with 500-1000 points, they just made 2000 points standard while decreasing the points per models over time to sell more models but the rules do not really support it because their basic design is with less models in mind