Switch Theme:

Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit  [RSS] 



Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/23 21:09:26


Post by: the_scotsman


Drukhari Codex Notes:

-Detachment Styles

Drukhari have 3 general ways to construct an army (assuming you want all-drukhari). You can go for the traditional route of simply a battlion or brigade, particularly if you want only one detachment. Second, you can go for all-patrols, a good setup for if you want a setup other than the Realspace raid required 6 units. In competitive, unless someone is looking to take advantage of the bonuses to realspace raids, all patrols will be the preferred army setup - particularly now that spamming minimum-sized units is greatly lessened in power (more on that later). All patrols let you skip out on one required HQ in favor of Drazar, and do not require the fixed setup of 1 kabal, 1 coven, 1 cult, instead allowing for a more focused list.

Subfaction Choice:

As usual for non-marine armies, taking custom subfactions revokes your ability to take the unique relic and warlord trait associated with a core subfaction. however, thanks to some powerful generic traits and relics (particularly those now available to the upgraded Master versions of HQs) and some improved custom traits, custom traits are now worth much more of a look particularly in the Kabals.

Kabals: With the extreme power of Agents of Vect curbed, Black heart is no longer nearly as mandatory as it once was. Bear in mind that the rules for Kabals now specify that an entire DETACHMENT must be relegated to Black Heart in order to gain access to the stratagem - including just one unit is no longer enough. However, the BH trait has been improved significantly.

My general Kabal tier list would be:

-Worst Tier: Mobile Raiders, Webway Raiders, Disdain for Lesser Beings, Soul Bound

In my opinion, these custom traits do not add up to anything that is better than any core kabal trait. At the end of the day, the custom Kabals have the means to provide a detachment with additional deadliness in several different avenues - but none of the other capabilities are particularly exciting.

-D tier: Kabal of the Flayed Skull

The removal of the reroll 1 to hit makes FS quite a bit weaker than it used to be. The FS warlord trait is one of several traits that is just worse than Eternal Hatred, and the Relic is nothing particularly special. Masters of the Shadowed Sky is solid, but there are many many ways to improve hit rolls to a 2+ - power from pain, Trueborn, etc.

-C Tier: Poisoned Tongue

This kabal is only this low because in my opinion you can get better offense out of various combinations of custom kabal traits, and there's nothing in the trait/relic/strat that's absolutely vital. Remember that Combat Attrition is only ever useful against non-Marine/Tyranid armies. Statistically, Toxin Crafters offers a slightly better boost for a poison-spam detachment.

-B Tier: Dark Mirth, Toxin Crafters, Twisted Hunters, Torturous Efficiency, Merciless Razorkin, Deadly Deceivers

These combinations of custom kabal offer either straightforward offense or some interesting new options. Personally, I feel if you're running a shooting-focussed army it makes sense to split your army based on what types of weapons you're armed with. Dark Lances work best in Black Heart, Splinter spam wants to be toxin Crafters or maybe Poisoned Tongue. A detachment based around flyers may find Dark Mirth/Twisted Hunters particularly interesting, as Voidravens and Razorwings will be able to snipe out characters and drop Dark Mirth on the entire opposing army with next to no risk.

-A Tier: Obsidian Rose, Kabal of the Black Heart

Obrose: Oh how the meek have inherited the earth! The key to this trait's power lies with the new rule for Splinter Racks: rapid fire out to full range, and oh by the way full range is now 30" - oh, and splinter cannons fire at full effectiveness out to 42"...damn that's good! Obrose provides a ridiculously safe bread and butter unit of 10 kabalites in a dark lance splinter rack raider - probably with either a pair of blasters and a splitner cannon or a single dark lance and just all splinter rifles - one big weapon to take advantage of that single reroll to wound they get. Given how aggressive so many drukhari units are, these super-safe kabalite units to hold the backfield are excellent support to make sure you keep holding your home objectives and scoring engage on all fronts.

Kabal of the Black Heart: If you're taking a realspace raid detachment, it is REAAAALLY tough to argue with black heart as your kabal. You get a trait, an aura on your archon, and a relic that all work on Blades for Hire units as well as kabalites - nice to have an Archon that's actually worthwhile for buffing things. Writ is as good as ever (still works on Ravagers, too!), the trait is improved, labyrinthine cunning is still decent, lots to like here.

Wych Cults:

-Not Great Tier: Art of Pain (really all this does is allow you to get the turn 3 benefit on turn 2, since a 5++ early in combat is redundant with Dodge, and there's no point in advance and charge if you're already in combat), Acrobatic Display, Bezerk Fugue.

-Honestly seem pretty balanced tier: Um...everything else.

Let's look at customs first. Agile Hunters is the only one that significantly boosts shooting units, if you want to use a lot of reavers with guns and flyers. Test of skill+Precise Killers allows Bloodbrides and Hellions to absolutely butcher vehicles, Trophy Takers works in tandem with a 'freakshow' army setup alongside dark creed and poisoned tongue, and Stimulant Innovators+Slashing makes for a solid turn 2 tempo damage trait combo. Hyperstimm Backlash can get pretty goofy with Stimulant Innovators in particular - when you hyperstimm a succubus with the addict trait, 2 randomly rolled drugs and Stimm Innovators on she has 10 drugs.

The three core cults are no longer quite as distinct structurally in what they want to do and how they want to put their lists together, what with Red Grief no longer allowing you to use Reavers as a turn 1 tempo unit and Cursed Blade no longer making max unit blocks so much more viable than the other two.

Red Grief: Re-roll charge and +2 to advance makes for an obvious turn 2 tempo setup with the new turn 2 power from pain table result. You can set your units up midboard in fairly safe positions and make very easy charges with them turn 2. Obviously, blood glaive is blood glaive, we know it we love it. Precision Blows makes the blood glaive pretty nasty even against high-invuln characters. I don't think master succubus is necessary with a glaive+precision succubus - most characters are just going to get exploded by that combo, the ability to skip out after fighting isn't quite as important. Acrobatic Display remains a great strat as well.

Cult of Strife: the weakest of the bunch when just looking at the codex, the new suppplement makes this one a real option - particularly if you're running a very wych-heavy army. No Method of Death is still great, combos with Hyperstimm and any other offense boosting strat like Blade Well Placed. If you have CP to burn, strife wyches can become absolute monsters. Phial bouquet is still bad, Blood Dancer on Lelith is still obvious. Basically, if you're willing to pour your resources into them and give them center stage, Cult of Strife seems to perform well.

Cursed Blade: I'd consider this the "best returns for low investments" cult. A shardnet+impaler succubus in CB with Treacherous Deceiver and the Traitor's Embrace can absolutely destroy characters worth many more points, and a small unit of, say, 5 hellions dive bombing into a unit with a ton of attacks and a single weapon type - say, Ork Boyz with choppas, assault intercessors, etc - can deal more damage with the Strong will Thrive than they do with their normal attacks.

Covens:

Worst Tier: Dark Harvest, Master Torturers, experimental creations.

B Tier: Prophets of Flesh, Dark Creed, Artists of Flesh, Hungry for Flesh, Masters of Mutagens, Dark Technomancers, Ehanced Sensory Organs, Splinterblades,

Just like with wych cults, the selection this time around feels fairly balanced, rather than the old "one obviously way better than the others." I feel like coven of twelve is slightly on top, just due to being a solid all-rounder that you can never really go wrong with, but all the other options here besides the bad custom traits seem like there's some army setup or reason to take them.

Dark Creed: I do really think a spooky army setup is a viable choice, with Poisoned Tongue, Dark Creed and Trophy Takers wyches togheter in an army. The biggest thing in the way is space marines with their dang Knowing No Fear. Phantasm Grenade Launchers, Grisly Trophies, the Dark Creed trait, and the bonuses to Combat Attrition (easily stacking up to -3 with Poisoned Tongue, Dark Creed and Pray they Dont Take You Alive) make a freakshow army truly viable into any meta without tons of marines. There's even a fun secondary for it!

Prophets of Flesh: Basically the one you take if you want Urien. Urien's fine still, great for boosting up a big ol' unit of grotesques, which also make great use of the PoF stratagem and arguably the best use of their trait, which is much much MUCH MUCH weaker than it used to be.

Dark Technomancers: Say, do you like double liquifier wrack squads in venoms? Because that's what dark technomancers is good for now. Well, I guess theoretically cronos pain engines and double liquifier talos as well. Point is: weapons that make hit rolls are now much more risky with dark tech, but hey! Weapons that hit automatically don't care at all! woohoo!

Artists of Flesh: If you just want your covens to act as a brick to break your enemies against, this one is just superior to Prophets of Flesh. with the new free healing from haemonculi, the Haemoxites Upgrade in addition to Twisted Animator (HAEMOXYTE keyword doesn't replace WRACK keyword!), Alchemical Maestro....yeah, coven units with this trait can be going nowhere fast.

Obsessive Collectors+either Experimental Creations or Masters of Mutagens: A fun meme trait for 20-man wrack squads with the new squad cap. Gray Spiky Tide, anyone? Just make sure you also have the upgraded master haemonculus to regenerate even more dead wracks. Bonus points if you eat necrons to resurrect wracks to establish dominance!

A tier: Coven of 12

This is the one I look at and think "You basically can't go wrong picking this one." it doens't do any one thing the best, but it has a solid offense buff, a solid boost for simple little objective holding Ossefactor+Hexrifle Wrack squads, and good boosts to turn your haemie into a legitimate character killing threat. Nothing really dislikes being Coven of 12 in the covens list.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/23 21:10:58


Post by: the_scotsman


Unit Analysis (primarily focusing on changes from 8th to 9th)

All units: Gained Blade Artists, new Power from Pain replaces old PFP

All coven units: Insensible now 5+FNP instead of 5++

All Wych Cult units: Drugs now freely stackable or roll for 2, +LD drug now also adds +1BS, +1A drug now only works on the charge.

Archon

Changes: Sv 5+ to 4+, Overlord now affects INCUBI but only affects <kabal> CORE, Huskblade now only S: User, damage 2 instead of damage D3. Venom Blade now -1AP, power sword now +1S.

Analysis: The Archon definitely needs investment to be any kind of worthwhile. Black Heart can run a decent buffer archon in a Realspace raid, allowing him to buff units like Mandrakes and Scourges with his aura and giving him the Writ to make his aura more worthwhile, but I feel like any other Kabal that doesn't duck the Archon in favor of Drazar needs to give him a few bonuses to make him not suck. The Eternal Hatred warlord trait, Djinn Blade and Master Archon upgrade turn him into a real threat. stick him, Drazar (hey, he makes him reroll 1s to hit!) and a min size Court into a venom for a scary anti-elite unit. Or just run him with 5 incubi if you don't want to invest that many points.

Succubus

Changes: +2A, Brides of Death now only affects CORE (doesn't matter at all, since Reavers and Hellions are CORE), Archite Glaive now not -1 to hit. Shardnet and Impaler now -1 to No Escape instead of D3 and now AP-2, Razorflails now Ax2 instead of A+D3 and no longer reroll hits, Hydra Gaunts now S+2 and AP-2, no longer reroll wounds.

Analysis: Wych Weapons are still 100% what you want to go for if you don't want to relic her up, with Razorflails the succubus throws a hilarious 18 attacks with Hypex and Quicksilver fighter, and the Shardnet+Impaler offers a respectable AP-2 D2 melee weapon with plenty of attacks to threaten a character. If you've got the model with the glaive, do yourself a favor and just pay the 15 points for a master succubus with the relic, it's quite a good weapon.

Haemonculus: -1A, +1W, Master of Pain no longer affects vehicles, Lost weapon options. Haemie tools now poison 2+, ichor injector now no longer feths around and just does 1MW on a hit, scissorhand now gives 2 bonus attacks. Fleshcraft now a datasheet ability instead of a strat.

Analysis: the loss of the electrocorrosive whip makes the default haemie more of a support unit than a killer. Using certain relics, traits, combos etc you can make him a threat, but by default he's much less potent. Luckily, his support powers (particularly with being able to also resurrect wracks as a master haemie) have been improved. Other than coven-specific traits and relics, there's not really much worth giving this guy - I'd guess that most often you'd just go for the +1 to wound trait and no relic, and then have him attack with his scissorhands exclusively rather than using the tools. Or just Master Regenist for more heals. If you're going to use the stratagem to give everyone a warlord trait, it's probably worthwhile to upgrade the Haemie to master so that you can use him to resurrect Haemoxytes.

Lelith Hesperax: +3A, Blades now +1S, -3AP, and score extra hits on 6 to hit. Brides of Death no longer works on transports. Quicksilver Dodge now 4++ -1 to hit. Gained Deadly Dance (6" consolidate in any direction). Natural Perfection now either charge after advance/fall back or fight twice if you kill any models.

Analysis: Despite fears that she would not be able to kill characters, Brides of Death makes lelith plenty murderous (4 hits on a 6 to hit XD). She deals 4 unsaved wounds on average vs a T4 4++ target with her warlord trait on, and kills her points back in most infantry units she manages to get into. Basically Lelith is worth bringing in any kind of cult of strife detachment, even without a D2 weapon.

Drazar: (comparing him to codex drazar for the lulz) +1W, +1A, +1 to invuln save, +2 damage and +1S to single blade, +1S +1D on dual klaive, Master of Blades now adds +1 to wound (still affects himself!), Tormenters now causes enemy unit to fight last if you roll 2d6>ld, now has -1 to damage, now fights twice (immediately, not end of phase).

Analysis: Holy. F'ing. gak does this guy shred. Space marine captain profile? dual klaive profile does TEN unsaved wounds. Gravis profile? 6.5 dead. A fething tank? 10.5 wounds on average. Drazar is basically instant death to anything that doesn't have crazy special rule shenanigans and he only costs 130 points. If you're going for Patrol army building setup, basically whichever HQ type is the most of a tax for you, you should swap out for Drazar. Also, he's quite considerate: He doesn't need warlord traits or relics to do his thang!

Urien Rakarth: +1W, +1A, Casket now autohits, Haemie tools now Poison 2+, Ichor injector now 1MW on hit, gained Sustained by Dark Science, gained Fleshcraft, auras now only affect core (no more +1S raiders :( )

Analysis: Was kind of a bland buffbot, now at least a decent combatant and even more obnoxious to kill. If you're in PoF and you were gonna take a master haemonculus, you might as well take Urien, and you might as well give him a big ol' unit of double cleaver Talos and/or Grotesques to boost the strength of. The new Diabolical Soothsayer makes him just hilariously durable - T6, W7, half damage, 4++ 5+FNP, resurrects when he dies.

Kabalite Warriors: A+1, SV5+ to 4+. can now take 2 specials and 1 heavy at 10 models. Sybarite can now have splinter rifle and melee weapon. Phantasm grenade now rolls 2d6 vs ld to deal 1mw for each hit, shredder now 18" range but no longer rerolls wounds, darklance now D3+3, splinter cannon now bad heavy bolter. can now be upgraded to 2+bs trueborn for +2PPM.

10 Kabalites in a Raider are now improved by the addition of the extra special, and with several kabals synergizing with the new splinter racks that setup will most likely be more common than it used to be. That unit is particularly devious as Trueborn, who can do stuff like shoot flyers on a 2+ ignoring modifiers, and can move and shoot with the dark lance in the squad. Sadly, the splinter cannon is looking much worse than it used to be - dedicated anti-infantry kabal squads are likely to stick to 5 man in a venom with a shredder.

Wyches: +1A, -1AP on hekatarii blade. Various wych weapon changes detailed in Succubus section, Dodge is the same (LOL thanks Power from Pain you're super helpful...) and wyches can now only take 1 of each special wych weapon for each 10 models in the unit...no wych weapons for min squads. Can now be upgraded to Bloodbrides for +2PPM with improved Blade Artists.

Analysis: Min wych squads are way less useful than they used to be, adding to what I would say is going to be a common trend of 10-squads of wyches and kabs in raiders becoming much more common than they used to be. Luckily, basic knife wyches with -1AP blades and Blade Artists. Bloodbrides are definitely the least useful of the upgraded squad types. With no more reroll charges turn 2 ad no more morale immunity, deep striking 20 wyches is also a lot less viable. In general, I feel like wyches are better than they used to be, but more one-note: the number of times I would choose to bring anything besides 10-strong squad, blast pistol+1 of each special and +1A drugs is very small.

Wracks: Wrack blades now -1AP, Ossefactor now 2D, no longer does the bonesplosion thing, Hexrifle now S6 AP-2 D2, electrocorrosive now D1 but 2x attacks, Mindphase now D2, liquifier now 12"r S4 AP-2 d1. Normal unit cap now 20. can now be upgraded to extra tough haemoxytes.

Analysis: Double liquifier 5-man wrack squads are now better, Hexrifle+Ossefactor squads now perform for everyone like they used to perform for Dark Techno, and they gained several ways to be resurrected. Also, 8ppm down from 12 is a really welcome boost, and it turns out durability is only slightly lost (6++ 5+FNP vs 5++ 6+FNP). Basically, you liked wracks before? Like em more now! Electrocorrosive seems to still be the best weapon option, incidentally. It's a tradition now!

Court of the Archon: now a unit again rather than 4 different units. Sslyth now T3 down from T5, Sslyth blade now AP-2 from AP-1, if the unit contains Sslyth Archons within 3" cant be targeted. urghul talons now AP-1, now 5+FNP instead of 5++ (with PFP as well). Lhamean now gives an aura of 6 to hit with poison weapons automatically wound to archons and Trueborn. Medusa eyeburst now 12" range, pistol, and hits automatically. now also Core! Also, you can take a hilarious number of these suckers. The unit cap is 16 now, though only 4 max of any one member makes it pretty unlikely theyll ever be fielded like that. an 8-man court with 4 urghul and 4 sslyth may have potential however.

Analysis: At 18ppm, Sslyths do seem to have a reason to be compared to Incubi, but the urghul definitely seem like you'd only take them if you've already maxed out on Sslyth. Sslyths though...a Shardcarbine, 3 S5 Ap-2 D1 attacks, 3 wounds with 6++ 5+FNP, and the special bodyguard thing, that's pretty fun especially in poisoned tongue. Sadly a lhamean can't buff her own unit. A venom full of Medusae does also seem to have potential - 12" range autohitting AP-2 flamers for 22pts isn't bad. Lhameans seem pretty bad though.

Incubi: +1A, +1S, +1D on both klaive types, Tormentors now 2d6 vs LD to fight last, still has Lethal precision, yay!

Analysis: What's to say? these dudes are just fantastic. Now with upgraded transport capacity, a venom with incubi and an archon in it is just, *chefs kiss*. You can also run them alongside Drazar to turn them into a true murder blender. 2x5 man squads are always better than 1x10 though - double demiklaives, more wounds, just, better.

Mandrakes: Now have Space Marine style scout deployment instead of deep strike, and can fade away at the start of your movmeent phase to go into strategic reserves. No statline changes.

Analysis: with the loss of red grief turn 1 tempo units, Mandrakes getting space marine infiltrate is great. If you wnat to deep strike them normally, you can just plop them down on the battlefield behind something and then fade them away turn 1 - also helpfully having them on the board if your opponent wins first turn and pulls an aggressive move. Losing old PFP FNP does ding their defenses, but they're still fairly irritating to get rid of with -1 to hit and 5++.

Grotesques: Monstrous Cleaver now D2, Liquifier now 12" range, S4 Ap-2 D1 autohitting. Flesh gauntlet now +1S.

Analysis: The gauntlet is now even more pointless, so a mix of liquifiers and maybe very slightly cheaper designated die-er Groteques is the way to set the unit up. Otherwise, not much to say about them: they've always been a bit of a brick unit, now with D2 melee they're killier than before.

Beastmaster: Now required to bring any beasts - 3 beast units for each master. Now T4. can optionally not take up a slot if you include any beasts.

Clawed Fiends: Claws now AP-2

Khymerae: Claws and Talons now S+1 AP-1

Razorwings: Now unit size 3-8

Analysis: Clawed Fiends seem to be the best option overall for beasts if you're gonna bring them, but they now hoover up fast attack slots in a subfaction that reeeeeeeeally wants them. I don't see Beasts being super popular in many army build setups, considering you're gonna want Hellions, Scourges, and Reavers - maybe if you're running with a Realspace raid brigade you'll have the slots to throw in a few scorer fiends and a master.

Reavers: +1A, Bladevanes now S+1 instead of fixed 4, Cluster Caltrops now key off enemy units falling back, Grav Talon now deals D3mw on a 6. heat lance now heavy 1 18" S8 AP-4 D6+2.

Analysis: Heat lances are now ridiculously spicy at 10pts, and reavers are great at carrying them. Bladevanes being S+1 is a nice little add, particularly with the extra attack and all the various ways to give them S+1. There's also a new +1 Ballistic Skill combat drug that's just fantastic on them, and with drugs not being limited anymore you can freely field as many BS2+ heat lances in 3 man squads as you want...well, slots allowing. At 70pts for a min squad with a heat lance, they seem like a viable alternative to blaster scourges at 100pts.

Hellions: T+1 to 4, W+1 to 2, A+1, Hellglaive now AP-1.

Analysis: Damn, what an improvement! They're basically choppy flavored Reavers now, a good little anti-MEQ unit for Wych Cults. The -1AP, Blade Artists, +1A on the charge drug, and +1S from Cursed Blade makes these a real threat to marine units.

Scourges: Ghostplate Armor now a 5+ invuln. now Core.

Analysis: Another edition, another time to figure out which weapon is best on scourges!

Anti-GEQ weaponry:

Shardcarbines: 60pts, 3.32 dead GEQ, 0.055pts per GEQ wound
4 shredders: 80pts, 7.13 dead GEQ, 0.089pts per GEQ wound

Shredders>shards. Shards do have various bonuses available.

Anti-Tank weaponry:

4 blasters: 100pts, 6.2 unsaved wounds, .062 wounds per point
4 Haywire: 100pts, 5.05 unsaved wounds, .05 wounds per point (vast majority of damage is MWs, avoiding Invuln saves)
4 Dark Lance: 120pts, 6.66 unsaved wounds, .055 wounds per point (much longer range)
4 heat lance: 100pts, 7.33 unsaved wounds, .073 wounds per point

Heat lances are best for raw damage, Haywire offers less efficiency but does damage in the form of mortal wounds, and dark lances offer the flexibiliyt of range. I think an argument can be made for all 3. Also, worth noting one thing: with a Realspace Raid a Scourge squad can benefit from the Archon's aura and potentially the Writ of the Living Muse.

Talos: All guns improved, core rule changes, Ichor Injector now does D3 mortals on hit, otherwise unchanged.

With the points for the melee weapon list greatly altered, the arm weaponry is now much more of a choice. heat lances for the guns seem like super no-brainers, though of course the capability to ignore invulns with MWs on the haywire blasters as with the Scourges should be considered. The best builds armwise, to me, seem to be:

-Basic Talos, double cleaver
-Flex to kill 1w models talos, flail+injector
-Expensive good at killing everything talos, Gauntlet+Twin Liq (group with 2 other cheaper talos to add teeth to the unit)

Cronos: Attacks +1 to 4, strength of both ranged weapons +2 to 5, damage characteristic on 6 to 2 from D3 on all weapons. Gained the ability Reservoir of Pain, for each model destroyed in melee 1 CORE unit within 6 can heal by 1 or regain a lost model with 1 wound remaining. Explosion reduced in range to 3". Spirit Probe now limited to CORE and CHARACTER, which does allow him to buff/heal himself since he is CORE.

Analysis: IMO the cronos goes from contender for the worst unit in the game to the heady heights of mediocrity. Not sure what Scari sees in it as an auto-include, it seems like a fine addition to any army that includes some kind of large turn 2 tempo brick unit that's going to aim to soak turn 1 fire instead of avoid turn 1 fire (i.e., not hiding in transports or trying to use extreme mobility to hide midboard behind Obscuring turn 1, so something like a 20-block of Wracks, a max squad of grots on foot, a couple units of Talos, 20 wyches is that a thing anyone's gonna try, maybe, I dunno, probably not. Spirit Probe/No Vortex seems like the obvious loadout for him, and you gotta note the obvious synergy with the new Dark Technomancers, he's yet another coven unit that doesn't really care about the new downside for that rule as his Syphon autohits so he can just overcharge it every turn for zero risk. Another fun function is his use within what I'm waffling between calling "Wrackcrons" and "Pointy Tide" - he provides yet another means to resurrect Wrack models which now have a max unit cap of 20, take them in the 'Heal when you destroy/+1S" custom coven and use them with a master haemonculus with the warlord trait and you just have a ton of dudes that will. not. die.

Ravager: Dark Lances now D3+3, Wounds+1 to 11, disintegrators and Dark Lances now heavy, Chain Snares Shock Prow Grisly Trophies and PGL all reworked.

Analysis: straightforward shooty unit remains straightforward shooty unit. Got a small bump in durability, a small bit more offense in the previously anemic triple lance build (and some nice synergy with a few more Kabals, particularly the two that come with little rerolls) but overall, does the same thing he's always done.

Raider: +1 toughness to tough 6, Chain Snares now +3 to A, Grisly Trophies now -2LD, Bladevanes now +1S, PGL now reworked to cause mortal wounds on each hit, Shock Prow now a strat, Splinter Racks now rapid fire at full range, Transport Capacity up +1 to 11. Now has access to Power from Pain.

Analysis: While the raider lost access to all the auras, overall it's got some huge improvements. Wych cults can use the new chain snares and grisly trophies to amusing effect and the new bladevanes offer some extra fun synergy with a few cults (particularly Cursed Blade making its melee attacks Strength 8), kabals love the new splinter racks and several kabals now feature a single reroll making the improved dark lance on the raider even more effective, and covens can make use of its ability to carry a five-man grotesque squad and an attendant Haemonculus or Urien Rakarth. And with all of them, the slight bump in durability with the +1T is particularly nice in light of the new Heavy Bolter profile. I predict we'll see a whole lot more of these being run now as opposed to Venoms in many different lists.

Venom: Bladevanes now +1S, transport capacity now 6, Splinter Cannons now Heavy 3 36" range Poison 4+ AP-1 D2, Grisly trophies now -2LD, chain snares now +3A, now has power from pain.

Analysis: I think venoms are now slightly more niche than they used to be as 'the default transport'. There are a few combos where they're quite good still - Dark Techno or Dark Creed 5x wracks with 2x liquifiers and the venom rocking Grisly Trophies, Poisoned Tongue shredder kabal squad with 2x splinter cannons on the venom, but generally a bit more limited than before IMO.

Razorwing Jetfighter: Dark Lance now 3+d3, Shatterfield now AP-2 but no reroll to wounds, Splinter cannons now D2, now has PFP.

Analysis: Basically didn't change. We may see a few more flyers due to people running Realspace raid detachments and being able to bring a few more of them, or we may see less now that Test of Skill no longer benefits them. Definitely Wych Cults want flyers less now.

Voidraven bomber: Dark Scythe now 2 damage, Void Lance now D3+3, Implosion Missile now D2, Shatterfield now AP-2 with no rroll to wound. Void mine now targets a spot on the battlefield and rolls a D6 for each unit within 6" of that point, subtracting 1 for a character, and dealing D6 MWs on a 4+.

Analysis: The voidraven is now one spicy little meatball, and definitely something to consider instead of a triple disintegrator Ravager if you were fielding one of those. Particularly on the Kabal side, this thing offers a ridiculously potent counter to any kind of "reroll aura ball MSU" army setup and you can load him up with exclusively damage flat 2 weaponry between the missiles and dark scythes. Basically this thing is like the current ork tactic with Burna Bombers to counter standard marine builds, but slightly less potent and it doesn't explodinate itself when you use it, which I would consider an absolute win.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/23 21:12:21


Post by: the_scotsman


Triptch Whip: +3A, Poison 2+ AP-3 D2
Dancer's Edge: (Master succubus) S+2, AP-4, D2, invulns cant be taken against wounds of 6
Blood Glaive: (Red Grief), S+2 AP-3 D3
Relic Glaive: (Strife) S+2, AP-5, D2, +1 to wound vs ld8+, 1MW if you don't target models with LD8+
Relic Agonizer: (Strife) Select one model who can't fall back
Garland of Spite (Strife): Select one enemy model and halve its attacks as well as autohit it
Dark Lotus Toxin: (Strife), +1S and +1D to all weapons on model
Phial Bouquet: (Strife) 1d6 random drug each round
Traitors Embrace: (Cursed Blade), if killed in melee 2+ to deal 3+d3mw

Breaking down the succubus relics, the generic of the Triptch Whip offers a high baseline. A Triptch Whip succubus is more effective against any target she has any business fighting by a wide margin: Assuming +A drugs 6.94 GEQ 5.78 MEQ 2.31 TEQ (all expressed as Killed Models) 6.94 CEQ (Marine Captain Equivalent 4++ multiwound character, expressed as Unsaved Wounds)

The Dancer's Edge offers one capability that almost no other relic setup offers: A succubus that can threaten vehicles. A Cult of the Cursed Blade succubus with Strength drugs and Dancers Edge/Blast Pistol deals 6.94 unsaved wounds vs a t7 3+ target. 4.86 GEQ 4.02 MEQ 1.802 TEQ 5.41 CEQ. Theoretically the strife glaive can perform a similar function but it's dependent on the +1 to wound getting it to 4+ vs vehicle targets. Some vehicles (Space Marine, Necron, Knights, etc) are LD8+ but others (Eldar, Guard, Ork) are not.

Grave Lotus on a Glaive/Blast Pistol succubus with strength drugs get close (6.66 wounds vs t7 3+) if you're in Strife and you don't want to be dependent on your opponent having ld8 vehicle targets. Note that (just going off of the secondhand leaks) grave lotus affects the strength and damage of the blast pistol as well, which is why that one is able to come close. If grave lotus is only on melee weaponry its always better to go for the Strife Relic Glaive.

A note on warlord traits: Precision Blows>Quicksilver Fighter. The mortal wounds not only provide better results with most weaponry.
Triptch Whip Quicksilver Fighter: 8.32 GEQ 6.94 MEQ 2.77 TEQ 8.33 CEQ
Triptch Whip Precision Blows: 8.95 GEQ 6.32 MEQ 2.98 TEQ 8.95 CEQ

Blood Glaive with Precision is particularly solid because it is D3 and you get a blast pistol: 7.37 GEQ 5.06 MEQ 3.95 TEQ 8.58 CEQ. D3 makes it a particular sweet spot for murdering elite infantry expressed as TEQ (3W 5++ infantry)

If you decide to go for one of the defensive/utility based relics, of which the only ones that are really worthwhile are the Garland (A powerful pick against targets like super pumped up named characters, knights, etc) and the Traitors Embrace, your best pick appears to be a Shardnet+Impaler with +strength drugs. Without accounting for any warlord trait (Precision is still best for damage) you're looking at: 3.833 GEQ 2.91 MEQ 0.73 TEQ 2.91 CEQ

Just For Fun: WHAT KIND OF DRUGS WERE THEY DENNY?
The most optimal druggubus is roll 2 times randomly on the table, take the stimm addict trait, use the Stimulant Innovators custom cult, and hand her that Dancer's Edge so she's got a weapon that's actually using her core strength stat. You do re-roll results of 6 thankfully on stimm addict so you're slightly less likely to end up with one of the two results you don't want (+1BS +1LD) so you are very likely to be able to pop Hyperstimm Backlash and have a succubus with +2S +2A +2T +4" move. with 5 mostly random drug effects you're likely to have at least one of the +WS/+BS womp womps but who cares.

Archon
Parasite's kiss: 12"r pistol 3 poison 2+ AP-2 D2, regain +1 wound for each model destroyed
Djinn Blade: S+1 AP-3 D3, +2A, roll a d6 each time you fight on a 1 suffer a mortal.
Soul Seeker: 18" pistol 2 poison 2+ AP-2 Dd3, ignore look out sir, no cover.
Animus Vitae: Essentially 2+ to grant +1 to hit on turn 2 instead of turn 3 for your turn 2 tempo list
Helm of Spite: Bearer can DTW, if they succeed the psyker takes a perils
Obsidian Veil: 4++
Armor of Misery: 3+sv, -1 to hit
Writ of living muse (black heart): rr 1s to wound kabal CORE, blades for hire if in RSR.
Soulhelm (Master archon): -1 to hit, 5+ FNP

The Archon is basically a similar game to the succubus with a more nebulous aim: Can you get better usage out of your relic/trait combo than you can get by running djinn blade/blast pistol with eternal hatred?

Because here's the thing: The Djinn Blade/Blast Pistol Eternal Hatred archon is a MONSTER.
5.22 GEQ, 5.22 MEQ, 3.47 TEQ, 7.122 CEQ
11.5 unsaved wounds vs T7 3+

So right off the bat: both pistol weapons reduce his damage swapping the Blade for a Huskblade. If you're running a pure shooty list, Parasites Kiss might be worthwhile to bring in a Venom lets say if the archon is rolling with a Shredder squad of Poisoned Tongue kabalites, you're not bringing any Incubi you're not bringing a Court so you just want your archon to be shooty, that's fine.

Animus Vitae is an interesting option IMO if youre running a list with a lot of turn 2 tempo melee units (Grotesques, Wyches in transports, Incubi/drazar in transport, hellions etc. You huck it out turn 2, and you get the turn 3 eager to flay for your big damage punch turn 2. Across your whole army, it's easy for +1WS to outclass the admittedly good damage the archon can be putting out. Helm of spite is similarly fine in a psyker heavy meta, we're familiar with what that brings to the table at this point.

All defensive relics IMO are a waste of time. The archon is not going to survive a round of attacks with a 3+ and -1 to hit or a 4++ post-shadowfield or a -1 5+FNP he wouldn't have survived before, he's a squishy T3 W5 character. 40k is a game of rocket tag, the 2++ is a better means to not die unexpectedly than most characters pack and gives the archon an unexpected edge in many matchups he has no business winning as a 90pt model, I'd say stick with that and give him the absurd offense that Hatred+Djinn Blade brings.

And then lastly there's the Writ, which I think makes for the only real viable 'support archon' setup where you just take a cheapo weapon, the writ, labyrinthine cunning and you make sure he's standing on the battlefield at the start of the game, ideally in a RSR detachment in range of some Talos for him to buff the shooting of and maybe with some extra scourges to drop down turn 2 and get reroll 1s to hit and wound from him.

Haemonculus:
Spirit Sting (Dark Creed): 12"r pistol 3 poison 2+ AP-3 d1, no invuln saves
Vexator Mask (Prophets of FLesh): No overwatch, select one enemy unit when fighting to fight last.
Nightmare Doll: Haemonculus gets 4+fnp instead of 5+
Flensing Blade (Co12): S: user poison 2+, AP-2 Dd3, D3 vs characters
Poisoners Ampoule (master haemie): Once per battle enemy unit within 9" takes d3 mortals on 2+, cant give auras, cant receive auras.


Haemie definitely has the most oddball list and I'd rate him as the one of the three I'd be most likely to leave relic-less. He doesn't get to be a "plus one" with Alliance of Agony when it comes to relics, so unless you've got a real good plan for them, I think probably leave that at home and give the relics to the two characters who can use them to become crazy damage factories.

Nightmare Doll is totally useless (RIP my puppetmaster Haemonculus scratchbuild who I usually ran as having it) Spirit Sting is cute but meh, Poisoners Ampoule seems pretty good in concept but realistically it'll be turn 3 probably before it gets used.

Vex Mask used to be good when Overwatch was a real thing in 8th, in 9th I think it's not a game changer, if your running PoF you've got extremely good odds that your sole HQ is going to be Urien so its kind of unlikely to see play anyway.

The only one I think 'wow, that meaningfully changes the game for the haemonculus" is the flensing blade, which makes him a fairly talented character disembowler. I'd usually go for this one because (in my experience anyway) my haemonculus is the one character who almost always gets multiple rounds of combat unmurderized because he's rolling with a big gang of lumpy lads my opponent tends to be far more concerned with. As characters go the haemie is built like a brick gak so when people do target him, they often end up disappointed.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/23 21:14:58


Post by: Amishprn86


Good amount of large information, thanks.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/23 21:34:34


Post by: Red Corsair


In the succubus discussion/breakdown I would add the fact that the tripwhip can threaten vehicles better then any other loadout when using the strat to allow poison to kill a vehicle. Even better then the dancers edge cursed blade if I'm not mistaken.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/23 22:00:46


Post by: Sterling191


 Red Corsair wrote:
In the succubus discussion/breakdown I would add the fact that the tripwhip can threaten vehicles better then any other loadout when using the strat to allow poison to kill a vehicle. Even better then the dancers edge cursed blade if I'm not mistaken.


Sadly I believe Potent Metallotoxins is restricted from interacting with any relics. Otherwise a Succubus could easily one shot any non-Titanic target..


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/23 22:48:59


Post by: vipoid


On a semi-related note, I just noticed that the Lhamaean Toxin Crafter rule doesn't specify that you have to be attacking a non-vehicle or even a non-titanic unit.

So when a Lhamaean is around, a to-hit roll of 6 with a poisoned weapon will auto-wound a vehicle or even a Titanic unit.


Probably not all that useful, really, I just thought it was amusing.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/24 00:41:00


Post by: Oaka


TALOS DURABILITY WITH THE NEW CODEX

Like many others, I was so used to having a 4++ on all my Talos that seeing them change to a 6++ was devastating at first. Clearly inferior, right? After considering several different scenarios and factoring in all the other rules changes to the Talos I now believe that Talos durability has actually been IMPROVED in most cases. The obvious exception is against high damage weapons like melta, but even then it is not as bad as you might think. If you are willing to support your Talos units with a Haemonculus, Cronos, or both they are actually more resilient than before under the proper circumstances. I looked at different versions of the Talos:

1) Old Prophets of Flesh: 3+/4++/6+++
2) New Prophets of Flesh: 3+/6++/5+++ can't be wounded on a 1-3 unless weapon is S8+
4) New Artists of the Flesh: 3+/6++/5+++ -1D

For all calculations I ignored auras and stratagems, but factored in whether it was turn 1 or turn 4 when the invulnerable save increases to 5++. We are actually improved in this area as I will mention later. My final conclusion is that a New Artists of the Flesh Talos is more resilient than an Old Prophets of Flesh Talos. I do want to note that another benefit of the New Prophets of Flesh is that each unit regains 1 lost wound every command phase. That is not factored in to the total damage below, but you can imagine subtracting 1 from each of the New PoF numbers to take this into account if the situation would call for it.

Mortal Wounds: A straight up buff from Old to New. We are now shrugging off twice as many MWs with a 5+++ rather than the old 6+++. One of the main things I noticed reading through our new codex is just how many MWs can be inflicted by our units, so being better against MWs is nothing to dismiss.

AP0 or AP-1 weapons: A straight up buff from Old to New. If the Talos is making 3+ or 4+ armor saves, then it is absolutely more resilient now, thanks to the improved Feel no Pain save. Against weapons with a AP-1 that deal D2, like the heavy bolter, they basically tickle a New Artists of the Flesh Talos. With 9th edition becoming more killy, a lot of these smaller weapons are being bumped up to D2 so -1D has more benefits than against just heavy weapons with a high damage characteristic.

10 Hits with a Heavy Bolter (S5, AP-1, D2)
Old PoF: 2.8 damage caused
New PoF: 2.3 damage caused
New AotF: 1.2 damage caused

AP-2 weapons: These weapons would have normally been saved with a 4++ invulnerable with Old PoF, and now require a 5+ armor save. For D1 weapons, it is a slight nerf.

10 Hits with a Lightning Claw (S4 reroll wounds, AP-2, D1)
Old PoF: 2.4 damage caused
New PoF: 2.5 damage caused
New AotF: 2.5 damage caused

However, if you look at multi-damage AP-2 weapons, there is a significant buff to New AotF.

10 Hits with a Thunder Hammer (S8, AP-2, D3)
Old PoF: 8.4 damage caused
New PoF: 8.9 damage caused
New AotF: 6.0 damage caused

AP-3 weapons S6 or less: This category had one of the largest nerfs with the new rules, as the old invulnerable save absorbed more of the wounds. What is important to note, though, is once a Talos gets to turn 4 it is about as resilient as the Old PoF version against D1 weapons, only taking a fraction more damage.

10 Hits with a Power Sword (S5, AP-3, D1)
Old PoF: 1.4 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 1.9 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 1.5 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 1.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 1.5 damage caused

Once you look at multi-damage weapons the New AotF significantly pulls ahead.

10 Hits with a Bladeguard Master-crafted Power Sword (S5, AP-3, D2)
Old PoF: 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 1.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 1.5 damage caused

These results suggest that AotF Talos will be able to tank elite melee units like Bladeguard and Incubi much better than the old PoF ever could.

S7 Weapons: I did want to do a comparison in that rare circumstance where a T6 PoF Talos can use its obsession rule against a S7 weapon, which cannot wound it on a 1-3. This entire interaction can be avoided with a +1T Haemonculus buff but it was worth looking at.

10 Hits with a Plasma Incinerator (S7, AP-4, D1)
Old PoF: 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 2.3 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused

Here is the only case where a New AotF Talos performs much worse. BUT, against multi-damage weapons, the AotF Talos pulls ahead once again.

10 Hits with a Supercharge Assault Plasma Incinerator (S7, AP-4, D2)
Old PoF: 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 4.5 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused

Talos Killing Weapons: The biggest concern with the Talos changes, let's look at those weapons you always see deployed across from you and shooting your Talos.

10 Hits with a half-range Melta (S8, AP-4, Dd6+2)
Old PoF: 15.3 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 20.4 damage caused (Ouch!)
New PoF (turn4): 16.3 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 16.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 13.4 damage caused

10 Hits with a Dark Lance (S8, AP-4, Dd3+3)
Old PoF: 13.9 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 18.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 14.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 14.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 11.9 damage caused

So if you're using PoF Talos with the new codex, you are definitely going to see your models die faster in the first turn as they are taking 33% more damage. However, if you go with AotF, there is only a 7-10% increase in damage taken in the first turn. A turn 4 AotF Talos is more durable than ever.

Discussion: While the reduction in Talos durability is noticeable with Prophets of Flesh, taking the Artists of the Flesh obsession alleviates the nerf against melta weapons and other high damage attacks while making the Talos tougher against almost all other weapons. In fact, an AotF Talos benefitting from turn 4 Power from Pain is the most durable we have ever been. This is why I think the new Pain Syphon stratagem is a gem. If you can whittle down an enemy unit and finish it off with Talos ranged weapons on turn 1 or 2, while a Cronos is within 6" of the Talos unit, you will benefit from Power from Pain as if it is turn 5 for the entire game. This is huge, and not too difficult to achieve.

We also have a new coven relic that cancels auras on a unit for one battle round. Using this at the right time will certainly make a unit of Talos survive where an old Prophets of Flesh unit would not, and is a fantastic tool for us to have once per game. Offensively, the Talos received many global buffs and an Artists of the Flesh Talos gets to benefit from all of these.

So, why does this seem so good? The answer is the obsession really only helps coven monsters. Artists of the Flesh no longer affects vehicles, and Wracks gain much less from it than if they are Prophets of Flesh. If you are going light on Wracks and vehicles, though, and bringing lots of Talos and Cronos (like me), I conclude that Artists of the Flesh will result in an army that is not only better at doing damage than the old PoF version, but more durable as well.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/24 00:48:52


Post by: Tyel


Possibly pedantic - but I don't think Splinterblades belongs in the bottom tier of custom Covens. An additional hit on 6s adds up. Mathematically I think its around the same as +1 AP versus 3+ save targets. Worse versus 2+ or 1+, but better against 4+ and up. For pure Wracktide pairing it with 6s causing automatic wounds would also be okay, although it has Skornegy with Blade Artists. So reroll charges is probably preferable. Or perhaps fancy your chances eating units to get the regeneration, if the meta is leaning towards MSU.

Although just running around with Dark Technomancer liquefiers seems like a probable optimal choice.

I'm not sure its strictly speaking sensible, but in a world where money is no object - (Idk, TTS)...

Haemi
Haemi
10 Wracks 3 Liquifiers
10 Wracks 3 Liquifiers
10 Wracks 3 Liquifiers
10 Wracks 3 Liquifiers
5 Wracks 2 Liquifiers
5 Wracks 2 Liquifiers

Drazhar
Haemi
5 Wracks 2 Liquifiers
5 Wracks 2 Liquifiers
5 Wracks 2 Liquifiers
5 Wracks 2 Liquifiers
5 Wracks 2 Liquifiers
5 Wracks 2 Liquifiers

8 Raiders.

Annoyingly you have 25 points left over. So you'd probably ditch a Wrack and a liquifier from one of the 10 man squads to upgrade your warlord to master and one unit to Haemoxytes. But this is more of a thought experiment, so why not break out some Electrowhips instead.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/24 01:50:30


Post by: Oaka


There is a particular Dark Technomancer loadout that I hope will gain traction.

3 Grotesques w/ 3 liquifiers
5 Wracks w/ 2 liquifiers

This all fits snugly into the new 11-capacity Raider, but gives you 5 liquifiers instead of 4 if you use two Wrack units. 5 Grotesques in a Raider would also net you 5 liquifiers but then you risk losing a 45-point model when the transport is destroyed. With the 3 Grot, 5 Wrack mixture you can lose regular Wracks to crashes.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/24 03:21:37


Post by: AesSedai


 Oaka wrote:
There is a particular Dark Technomancer loadout that I hope will gain traction.

3 Grotesques w/ 3 liquifiers
5 Wracks w/ 2 liquifiers

This all fits snugly into the new 11-capacity Raider, but gives you 5 liquifiers instead of 4 if you use two Wrack units. 5 Grotesques in a Raider would also net you 5 liquifiers but then you risk losing a 45-point model when the transport is destroyed. With the 3 Grot, 5 Wrack mixture you can lose regular Wracks to crashes.


Love it!


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/24 12:02:27


Post by: the_scotsman


Spoiler:
 Oaka wrote:
TALOS DURABILITY WITH THE NEW CODEX

Like many others, I was so used to having a 4++ on all my Talos that seeing them change to a 6++ was devastating at first. Clearly inferior, right? After considering several different scenarios and factoring in all the other rules changes to the Talos I now believe that Talos durability has actually been IMPROVED in most cases. The obvious exception is against high damage weapons like melta, but even then it is not as bad as you might think. If you are willing to support your Talos units with a Haemonculus, Cronos, or both they are actually more resilient than before under the proper circumstances. I looked at different versions of the Talos:

1) Old Prophets of Flesh: 3+/4++/6+++
2) New Prophets of Flesh: 3+/6++/5+++ can't be wounded on a 1-3 unless weapon is S8+
4) New Artists of the Flesh: 3+/6++/5+++ -1D

For all calculations I ignored auras and stratagems, but factored in whether it was turn 1 or turn 4 when the invulnerable save increases to 5++. We are actually improved in this area as I will mention later. My final conclusion is that a New Artists of the Flesh Talos is more resilient than an Old Prophets of Flesh Talos. I do want to note that another benefit of the New Prophets of Flesh is that each unit regains 1 lost wound every command phase. That is not factored in to the total damage below, but you can imagine subtracting 1 from each of the New PoF numbers to take this into account if the situation would call for it.

Mortal Wounds: A straight up buff from Old to New. We are now shrugging off twice as many MWs with a 5+++ rather than the old 6+++. One of the main things I noticed reading through our new codex is just how many MWs can be inflicted by our units, so being better against MWs is nothing to dismiss.

AP0 or AP-1 weapons: A straight up buff from Old to New. If the Talos is making 3+ or 4+ armor saves, then it is absolutely more resilient now, thanks to the improved Feel no Pain save. Against weapons with a AP-1 that deal D2, like the heavy bolter, they basically tickle a New Artists of the Flesh Talos. With 9th edition becoming more killy, a lot of these smaller weapons are being bumped up to D2 so -1D has more benefits than against just heavy weapons with a high damage characteristic.

10 Hits with a Heavy Bolter (S5, AP-1, D2)
Old PoF: 2.8 damage caused
New PoF: 2.3 damage caused
New AotF: 1.2 damage caused

AP-2 weapons: These weapons would have normally been saved with a 4++ invulnerable with Old PoF, and now require a 5+ armor save. For D1 weapons, it is a slight nerf.

10 Hits with a Lightning Claw (S4 reroll wounds, AP-2, D1)
Old PoF: 2.4 damage caused
New PoF: 2.5 damage caused
New AotF: 2.5 damage caused

However, if you look at multi-damage AP-2 weapons, there is a significant buff to New AotF.

10 Hits with a Thunder Hammer (S8, AP-2, D3)
Old PoF: 8.4 damage caused
New PoF: 8.9 damage caused
New AotF: 6.0 damage caused

AP-3 weapons S6 or less: This category had one of the largest nerfs with the new rules, as the old invulnerable save absorbed more of the wounds. What is important to note, though, is once a Talos gets to turn 4 it is about as resilient as the Old PoF version against D1 weapons, only taking a fraction more damage.

10 Hits with a Power Sword (S5, AP-3, D1)
Old PoF: 1.4 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 1.9 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 1.5 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 1.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 1.5 damage caused

Once you look at multi-damage weapons the New AotF significantly pulls ahead.

10 Hits with a Bladeguard Master-crafted Power Sword (S5, AP-3, D2)
Old PoF: 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 1.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 1.5 damage caused

These results suggest that AotF Talos will be able to tank elite melee units like Bladeguard and Incubi much better than the old PoF ever could.

S7 Weapons: I did want to do a comparison in that rare circumstance where a T6 PoF Talos can use its obsession rule against a S7 weapon, which cannot wound it on a 1-3. This entire interaction can be avoided with a +1T Haemonculus buff but it was worth looking at.

10 Hits with a Plasma Incinerator (S7, AP-4, D1)
Old PoF: 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 2.3 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused

Here is the only case where a New AotF Talos performs much worse. BUT, against multi-damage weapons, the AotF Talos pulls ahead once again.

10 Hits with a Supercharge Assault Plasma Incinerator (S7, AP-4, D2)
Old PoF: 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 4.5 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused

Talos Killing Weapons: The biggest concern with the Talos changes, let's look at those weapons you always see deployed across from you and shooting your Talos.

10 Hits with a half-range Melta (S8, AP-4, Dd6+2)
Old PoF: 15.3 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 20.4 damage caused (Ouch!)
New PoF (turn4): 16.3 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 16.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 13.4 damage caused

10 Hits with a Dark Lance (S8, AP-4, Dd3+3)
Old PoF: 13.9 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 18.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 14.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 14.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 11.9 damage caused

So if you're using PoF Talos with the new codex, you are definitely going to see your models die faster in the first turn as they are taking 33% more damage. However, if you go with AotF, there is only a 7-10% increase in damage taken in the first turn. A turn 4 AotF Talos is more durable than ever.

Discussion: While the reduction in Talos durability is noticeable with Prophets of Flesh, taking the Artists of the Flesh obsession alleviates the nerf against melta weapons and other high damage attacks while making the Talos tougher against almost all other weapons. In fact, an AotF Talos benefitting from turn 4 Power from Pain is the most durable we have ever been. This is why I think the new Pain Syphon stratagem is a gem. If you can whittle down an enemy unit and finish it off with Talos ranged weapons on turn 1 or 2, while a Cronos is within 6" of the Talos unit, you will benefit from Power from Pain as if it is turn 5 for the entire game. This is huge, and not too difficult to achieve.

We also have a new coven relic that cancels auras on a unit for one battle round. Using this at the right time will certainly make a unit of Talos survive where an old Prophets of Flesh unit would not, and is a fantastic tool for us to have once per game. Offensively, the Talos received many global buffs and an Artists of the Flesh Talos gets to benefit from all of these.

So, why does this seem so good? The answer is the obsession really only helps coven monsters. Artists of the Flesh no longer affects vehicles, and Wracks gain much less from it than if they are Prophets of Flesh. If you are going light on Wracks and vehicles, though, and bringing lots of Talos and Cronos (like me), I conclude that Artists of the Flesh will result in an army that is not only better at doing damage than the old PoF version, but more durable as well.


I love this breakdown because it demonstrates how nice and tightly balanced so many of the new subfaction choices are. AoTF gives you defensive benefits on many models, PoF gives you defensive benefits applying to Wracks and Vehicles as well as a few offensive benefits like Sins Writ Large and Urien's strength aura. There's no one best choice, it depends on how you want to build and use the army.

The internal balance in this book, on the whole, is EXTREMELY good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:
Possibly pedantic - but I don't think Splinterblades belongs in the bottom tier of custom Covens. An additional hit on 6s adds up. Mathematically I think its around the same as +1 AP versus 3+ save targets. Worse versus 2+ or 1+, but better against 4+ and up. For pure Wracktide pairing it with 6s causing automatic wounds would also be okay, although it has Skornegy with Blade Artists. So reroll charges is probably preferable. Or perhaps fancy your chances eating units to get the regeneration, if the meta is leaning towards MSU.


You're probably right, I guess I placed it lower because I figured in most circumstances you'd take either masters of mutagens (lots of wracks) or experimental creations (lots of Talos who you want to bump to S8 scalpels)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sidebar: can we please remove the incorrect apostrophe from the title of the thread? If this goes for 90 pages it's going to be slightly bugging me every time like the fact that 'ascension' is spelled wrong in the title of the GSC tactica thread.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/24 13:44:58


Post by: Red Corsair


Maybe that apostrophe is his way of reaping power from your pain

PS Thanks, now I can't unsee either of those titles either, so he's gaining power by the minute


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Oaka wrote:
There is a particular Dark Technomancer loadout that I hope will gain traction.

3 Grotesques w/ 3 liquifiers
5 Wracks w/ 2 liquifiers

This all fits snugly into the new 11-capacity Raider, but gives you 5 liquifiers instead of 4 if you use two Wrack units. 5 Grotesques in a Raider would also net you 5 liquifiers but then you risk losing a 45-point model when the transport is destroyed. With the 3 Grot, 5 Wrack mixture you can lose regular Wracks to crashes.


That is a cool load out I hadn't considered. For me though, I am REALLY struggling with the fact that grotesque need to drop the cleaver for a liquifier. It was less of an issue when they were damage 1 but now it's kind of rough. I think outside of dark tech you probably don't bother (maybe take 1 per 3 grots) but in Dark Tech it is a real debate because the liquifier is basically the exact same as the melee attack, only from range which would normally give it the edge but in 9th I feel like charging objectives is really important for playing the mission and I have never been impressed with flesh gauntlets.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/24 14:25:21


Post by: the_scotsman


well, let's break it down. You get 5 wracks and 2 liquifiers for 60pts, and you get 1 grotesque and 1 liquifier for 45pts. So 1.33 liquifier-armed grotesques for 5 wracks 2 liquifiers.

That's 11 S3 Ap- D1 poison 4+ melee attacks and 7 S4 AP-2 D1 autohits vs 5.32 S6 AP- D1 melee attacks with MWs on 6 to wound and 4.655 S4 Ap-2 D1 autohits.

Defensively, the grotesques are 5.32 T5 wounds versus 5 T4 wounds with the grots being a W4 target and the wracks being a W1 target.

Looking at dark technomancers, I think it's tough to say the grots have an edge. Yes, you can squeak an extra liquifier into the raider compared to 2x5 grots, but you're paying an extra 75pts to do it, which seems...steep.

I think if you want grotesques in a raider you definitely want to be looking at either Prophets of Flesh or Artists of Flesh, where those defensive advantages over wracks are going to come into play.

And I think if you're doing that...you don't want to be using them for liquifiers. You want to be using them as the covens turn 2 mounted assault unit, with cleavers so they can mulch pretty much any target they want to (using butchers craft to do so if they run up against anything they wound on 5s).

In my eyes, covens have 3 different offensive approaches:

1) roll up in a transport, shoot liquifiers out of it, don't get out. The king setup for this in my eyes is definitely the dark tech venom with 2 liquifiers for killing MEQ, or the dark creed raider with PGL and Grisly Trophies and 2x5 wracks 4 liquifiers for anti-chaff.

2) attempt to hide a transport containing cleaver grotesques and a haemonculus turn 1, pop them out and charge turn 2.

I think there's multiple ways to set this strategy up. There's the 'maximise offense' type of setup where you go either custom coven or coven of 12 with the haemie armed with the blade, there's the 'minimize the chance the opponent can stop it' where you go for PoF with the Vexator and you preclude Overwatch and give them the ability to make a counter-charger fight last, and there's the "turn them into a brick in the middle of my opponent's lines" where you go for Artists of the Flesh and bring along a Cronos to use the strat to pop them up to turn 5 PFP so they're a monster of a unit with T6, 5++, 5+FNP, morale immunity, and -1 damage.

3) brick units with defensive buffs that attempt to survive the fire they're going to take as they roll in. Stuff like Artists of Flesh Talos, Obsessive Collectors Wracks, PoF wracks I think would be best for this. I'd be curious to break down how Artists of Flesh grots might fare in this role, but I suspect the fact that Talos can have guns, and also can be buffed from various sources so those guns are stronger, gives them a solid edge in that arena.

Hell, Dark Creed taloi in a Realspace Raid can get rerolls of 1 to hit and to wound and +1 to hit. I am looking forward to trying that out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
damn actually thinking about that Dark Creed talos can get fairly tasty. outside of Necrons, basically every vehicle in the game is going to have a lower Leadership than a Dark Creed talos that's in melee range, so you could have perma-+1 to hit with Gauntlet talos. And if you had a few Grisly Trophies transports running around you could even get the +1 to hit off on LD10 necrons.

That's pretty awesome..the only question is whether arming them with the twin liquifiers is flying too close to the sun. Ichor Injector, Liquifiers, or Cleaver for the second arm? Obviously we're going for Heat Lances on the tails, that's for sure, 115 pts for 2 super-buffed up heat lances seems pretty friggin great.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/24 14:53:16


Post by: MrPieChee


the_scotsman wrote:


Court of the Archon: now a unit again rather than 4 different units. Sslyth now T3 down from T5, Sslyth blade now AP-2 from AP-1, if the unit contains Sslyth Archons within 3" cant be targeted. urghul talons now AP-1, now 5+FNP instead of 5++ (with PFP as well). Lhamean now gives an aura of 6 to hit with poison weapons automatically wound to archons and Trueborn. Medusa eyeburst now 12" range, pistol, and hits automatically. now also Core! Also, you can take a hilarious number of these suckers. Do you want 16 W3 snakeboiz? Maybe 10 in a raider with an archon so your opponent gets sick of these god damn snakes in this god damn plane?

Analysis: At 18ppm, Sslyths do seem to have a reason to be compared to Incubi, but the urghul definitely seems to be pretty much redundant with those around. Sslyths though...a Shardcarbine, 3 S5 Ap-2 D1 attacks, 3 wounds with 6++ 5+FNP, and the special bodyguard thing, that's pretty fun especially in poisoned tongue. Sadly a lhamean can't buff her own unit. A venom full of Medusae does also seem to have potential - 12" range autohitting AP-2 flamers for 22pts isn't bad. Lhameans and Urghuls seem pretty bad though.

.


Each type of model in the court is 0-4, so you can only have max 4 snakes.

Urghuls are the cheapest models in the court, so I wonder if they are worth taking for ablative wounds... Seem a little pricey still. 4 Medusa's in a venom seems fun, and in that situation, 2 Urghuls could be worth it. I'm also tempted to say 4 urghuls are better than 6 wyches to go in a venom...

Can lhamean only buff trueborn an archons? That's a bit of a missed opportunity. They might have been interesting supporting a couple of units of kabalites, although it might be a pain with transports.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/24 15:37:36


Post by: the_scotsman


MrPieChee wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


Court of the Archon: now a unit again rather than 4 different units. Sslyth now T3 down from T5, Sslyth blade now AP-2 from AP-1, if the unit contains Sslyth Archons within 3" cant be targeted. urghul talons now AP-1, now 5+FNP instead of 5++ (with PFP as well). Lhamean now gives an aura of 6 to hit with poison weapons automatically wound to archons and Trueborn. Medusa eyeburst now 12" range, pistol, and hits automatically. now also Core! Also, you can take a hilarious number of these suckers. Do you want 16 W3 snakeboiz? Maybe 10 in a raider with an archon so your opponent gets sick of these god damn snakes in this god damn plane?

Analysis: At 18ppm, Sslyths do seem to have a reason to be compared to Incubi, but the urghul definitely seems to be pretty much redundant with those around. Sslyths though...a Shardcarbine, 3 S5 Ap-2 D1 attacks, 3 wounds with 6++ 5+FNP, and the special bodyguard thing, that's pretty fun especially in poisoned tongue. Sadly a lhamean can't buff her own unit. A venom full of Medusae does also seem to have potential - 12" range autohitting AP-2 flamers for 22pts isn't bad. Lhameans and Urghuls seem pretty bad though.

.


Each type of model in the court is 0-4, so you can only have max 4 snakes.

Urghuls are the cheapest models in the court, so I wonder if they are worth taking for ablative wounds... Seem a little pricey still. 4 Medusa's in a venom seems fun, and in that situation, 2 Urghuls could be worth it. I'm also tempted to say 4 urghuls are better than 6 wyches to go in a venom...

Can lhamean only buff trueborn an archons? That's a bit of a missed opportunity. They might have been interesting supporting a couple of units of kabalites, although it might be a pain with transports.


^Ah, good catch. I will edit that part out, I missed the interaction of the model lists and the unit size cap. Still, very strange to see the overall unit cap at 16 rather than going for the IG command squad style. 4 urghul and 4 sslyth would still be quite a powerful unit to slip into a raider with an archon. Kind of a much less trivial to remove version of Incubi, given that the squad has 24 T3 wounds with an invuln and a FNP. I can see that really throwing some opponents for a loop. What do you use to attack it? low strength D1 weapons are gonna take forever, multidamage weapons are going to run into the 'W3 awkwardness' compounded by the FNP. Gies your opponent an intersting puzzle box to solve vs the completely obvious "OK, i'll just shoot them with anything, it's a suicide unit that will evaporate instantly" that is Incubi.

way less good at killing things though, for sure.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/24 16:02:58


Post by: Oaka


the_scotsman wrote:

3) brick units with defensive buffs that attempt to survive the fire they're going to take as they roll in. Stuff like Artists of Flesh Talos, Obsessive Collectors Wracks, PoF wracks I think would be best for this. I'd be curious to break down how Artists of Flesh grots might fare in this role, but I suspect the fact that Talos can have guns, and also can be buffed from various sources so those guns are stronger, gives them a solid edge in that arena.


I am genuinely concerned about Grots in this role, now. They are taking a lot more wounds from basic weapons, I really wish they had a 4+ or even 5+ armor save to help mitigate the loss of the invulnerable.

Final comparison for the evening- Grotesques. I looked at Old PoF, New PoF, and New AotF. The changes were pretty brutal to these guys because they do not have an armor save to fall back on like the Talos does, so lighter weapons really start taking wounds off. Unlike the Talos, an AP-1 weapon behaves just like an AP-4 weapon (time to consider dense cover for your Grots in the early game). Turn 4 PfP rescues Grotesques closer to the old PoF version, but they will go down quick before that and it is much harder to use the Cronos stratagem for them as they will likely have to already be in combat before they can kill an enemy unit. The new PoF obsession ability does kick in with S6 and S7 weapons against T5 Grotesques, but to be honest the changes are so devastating when you look at multi damage weapons that I think you have to choose AoTF just to mitigate it. Just like the Talos, a New AoTF Grotesque is more resilient than the Old PoF Grotesque against multi damage attacks in most cases.

10 Hits with a Bolt Rifle (S4, AP-1, D1)
Old PoF: 1.4 damage caused
New PoF/AotF (turn1): 1.9 damage caused
New PoF/AotF (turn4): 1.5 damage caused

This is a 29% damage increase suffered by S4 D1 weapons on turns 1-3!

10 Hits with a Heavy Bolter (S5, AP-1, D2)
Old PoF: 4.2 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 4.5 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 2.8 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 2.2 damage caused

10 Hits with a Lightning Claw (S4 reroll wounds, AP-2, D1)
Old PoF: 2.3 damage caused
New PoF/AotF (turn1): 3.1 damage caused
New PoF/AotF (turn4): 2.5 damage caused

35% damage increase from lightning claws in turns 1-3!

10 Hits with a Thunder Hammer (S8, AP-2, D3)
Old PoF: 8.4 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 11.1 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 8.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 7.4 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 5.9 damage caused

10 Hits with a Power Sword (S5, AP-3, D1)
Old PoF: 2.1 damage caused
New (turn1): 2.8 damage caused
New (turn4): 2.2 damage caused

33% damage increase suffered by S5 D1 weapons on turns 1-3! The +1T aura is vital for Grots.

10 Hits with a Bladeguard Master-crafted Power Sword (S5, AP-3, D2)
Old PoF: 4.2 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 4.5 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 2.8 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 2.2 damage caused

Here is where the superiority of the New AotF Grotesque becomes apparent, but to be fair let's look at a weapon that favors the New PoF Grotesque.

10 Hits with a Plasma Incinerator (S7, AP-4, D1)
Old PoF: 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 2.3 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused

As soon as you increase the weapon D, though, AotF gets much better again.

10 Hits with an Autocannon (S7, AP-1, D2)
Old PoF: 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 4.5 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused

And finally, the big weapons. Grotesques actually take damage from these exactly the same as a Talos.

10 Hits with a half-range Melta (S8, AP-4, Dd6+2)
Old PoF: 15.3 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 20.4 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 16.3 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 16.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 13.4 damage caused

10 Hits with a Dark Lance (S8, AP-4, Dd3+3)
Old PoF: 13.9 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 18.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 14.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 14.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 11.9 damage caused

So there you have it, New AotF Grotesques are superior to Old PoF Grotesques against all D2 or greater weapons until you start hitting D5. D1 weapons will now be dealing around 33% more damage, though, so make sure you have a Haemonculus buffing Grotesques, it is much more important than buffing the Talos. You will also want to keep your Grotesques in dense cover for the -1 to hit if possible until they can advance and charge. If you were running minimum units of 3 Grotesques, you should consider bumping it up to 4 to compensate. New PoF Grotesques are only ever better against S6-7 D1 attacks, and that becomes only S7 weapons with the Haemonculus buff. If your Grotesques make it to turn 4, the old durability will be greatly restored to ~10% more damage taken, but that is a tall ask and it is very difficult to give them the Cronos stratagem buff on turn 1.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/24 16:27:16


Post by: the_scotsman


Yeah, I think Grots in the role of brick are solidly outperformed by both wracks and taloi now.

Also worth noting that a Talos brick is probably fast enough to be in your opponent's lines turn 2 if you don't mind giving up shooting their heavy weapons thanks to army-wide advance and charge, and the new mission structure means if your opponent forces them to cross the whole of no man's land to get to them, you're set up for an extremely easy objective win.

more healing, more synergistic defensive traits in the -1 damage trait, and vastly buffed ranged weaponry has me absolutely loving taloi. I guess my question on grots is: why wouldn't you just throw them in a transport? It seems like an easy fix, are you just concerned that if you don't have them in the role of designated die-er, your opponent will target more vulnerable segments of your list?

My ony concern with grots is the huge preponderance of melta weaponry in the meta right now. but they do have 3 solid abilities that reduce the effectiveness of that. A wall of wracks doesnt give a single rat's ass about any melta weapons, but then they just wont be targeted with them, those meltas will go into your raiders or your flyers or your ravagers or whatever. So unless youre committed to a totally melta-proof list setup with nothing over W3, I think it's better to have a unit out there who will take a bloody chunk out of you if you don't direect meltas their way, and who isn't particularly bad at surviving meltas either.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/24 17:02:03


Post by: Denegaar


I want my book already!

Currently magnetizing my Talos and Boats, ans I'm wondering, can we exchange both Talos arms? Or it has to equip at least a Cleaver?

Thanks for all the info, really helpful guys.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/24 17:14:41


Post by: the_scotsman


 Denegaar wrote:
I want my book already!

Currently magnetizing my Talos and Boats, ans I'm wondering, can we exchange both Talos arms? Or it has to equip at least a Cleaver?

Thanks for all the info, really helpful guys.


You can equip the talos exactly according to the kit - so one arm can either be a cleaver, or an injector, or a twin liquifier, and the other arm can be a cleaver, or a gauntlet, or a flail.

...Which I would find really irritating, but it does at least make for more interesting choices than if you could go for flail/gauntlet which would be superior to any combination of cleaver/injector against almost everything.

The way it's set up now, you do actually have decisions to make in terms of what targets you want your talos to prioritize. I can definitely see the benefits of:

-Double cleaver - best vs W2 meq
-Gauntlet+Injector - best vs tanks, can output some mortal wounds vs targets that are awkward to swing a D3 weapon at
-Gauntlet+Liquifier - best all round but pricy
-Flail+Liquifier - infantry murderizer
-Flail+Cleaver - give up one marine killing attack to become less easy to tarpit with chaff

Gauntlet+Cleaver and Cleaver+Injector are the awkward loadouts IMO.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/24 17:15:20


Post by: Tyel


And ninjaed by 30 seconds.

See above.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/24 18:05:29


Post by: Oaka


Talos weapon options were the third and final thing I took a look at (can you tell I was desperate to know what happened to my Talos/Grotesque list with the new codex?)

I have gone ahead and taken a look at weapons options to pair with your beefy new Artists of the Flesh Talos. I used to run Macro Scalpel/Chain Flails but I know many went dual scalpels in a 3+ armor meta. Chain Flails have now lost reroll wounds so are an easy option for me to drop. The Talos Ichor Injector reads like a wonderful choice, and the numbers back that up, as it causes 1.3 wounds against any target without a FnP save. The change to the Talos Gauntlet, now doing a straight 3 damage, was also of great interest to me. I didn't include the chances of Blade Artists to proc, so consider that another extra bonus with the new weapon setups compared to the old Talos.

Talos against (T4 3+)
Dual Scalpels: 3.6 damage
Scalpel/Injector: 3.7 damage
Gauntlet: 5.2 damage
Gauntlet/Injector: 5.5 damage

Talos against (T4 2+/4++ +1 to armor saves)
Dual Scalpels: 1.8 damage
Scalpel/Injector: 2.5 damage
Gauntlet: 3.1 damage
Gauntlet/Injector: 3.8 damage

Talos against (T5 3+)
Dual Scalpels: 3.6 damage
Scalpel/Injector: 3.7 damage
Gauntlet: 4.2 damage
Gauntlet/Injector: 4.7 damage

Talos against (T8 3+/4++)
Dual Scalpels: 1.3 damage
Scalpel/Injector: 2.2 damage
Gauntlet: 1.9 damage
Gauntlet/Injector: 2.8 damage

When you start getting to the big tough stuff in the game the MWs from the ichor injector attack alone do as much damage as six attacks with macro scalpels! I think the pattern is pretty obvious here, equip a Talos with a Gauntlet/Injector always.

For ranged weapon choices, Goonhammer did a great analysis that put Heat Lances as the superior weapon option. If you are trying to kill a unit with ranged attacks to get that Cronos stratagem to go off, that would be the obvious choice. I offer a different option, and bear with me here, Stinger Pods! It is the only ranged weapon that didn't change to Heavy, so is the only gun that can be fired after the Talos advances, which you will be doing on turn 2 to get a reliable charge off. A main weakness to the gauntlet/injector Talos is being bogged down in combat by hordes, and there is no better way to deal with that than 2D6 S5 shots into the unit while you are in combat. More likely, though, you will be dealing with a marine meta and the heat lances will be the clear choice.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/24 18:34:49


Post by: the_scotsman


Are you accounting for the fact that you lose wound efficiency against W2 targets with a D3 weapon? My math shows the gauntlet+injector very slightly ahead assuming average rolling, but there is a chance of rolling a 1 on your mortal wound die, which is essentially the same as a miss vs a w2 target.

Regardless, Gauntlet+injector is in fact a slight upgrade against basically every target (except for a very slight negative vs GEQ, which neither is particularly great at dealing with) but, I mean, it does cost more points.

If you start looking at the ways to get +1 strength, things get a bit more balanced out, because S8 on cleavers is a significant ding but S9 on the gauntlet doens't matter at all.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/24 19:54:42


Post by: Oaka


You are right that each setup will probably kill two marines and the gauntlet is 5 points more, but that's a small cost in my mind for the potential against 3W models. You can probably consider it meta-dependent, and my two most common opponents use a lot of Eradicators/Blade Guard and Canoptek Wraiths, so I'm champing at the bit to try these new weapon configurations out on them.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/24 20:25:43


Post by: Sterling191


I'm curious how the Dark Creed +1 to hit shifts those numbers (if at all).


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 01:16:22


Post by: cuda1179


I have my old 3rd ed DE on standby. I know it's not the most efficient, but I like the idea of a Succubus+wyches in one Raider, Archon+trueborn in second Raider, Court in third raider, and Drazar + incubi in a fourth Raider. Speed up and alpha strike.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 04:24:35


Post by: flamingkillamajig


I'm curious about the rest of the unit and weapon profile leaks. We got a lot but I feel like there are parts either they or I missed.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 06:57:02


Post by: AngryAngel80


Just posting to say thanks for the math run down on the scourge weapons scotsman. I appreciate the effort given for showing the differences in capability, even hitting on 4's. Cheers.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 11:54:21


Post by: dumb_numpty


 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I'm curious about the rest of the unit and weapon profile leaks. We got a lot but I feel like there are parts either they or I missed.


There are whole-rules scans floating around. I'm not sure what the policy is around these parts on linking to stuff like that but I will say that the TTS crowd often need codex scans. Their Discord has further info.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 12:02:48


Post by: the_scotsman


 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I'm curious about the rest of the unit and weapon profile leaks. We got a lot but I feel like there are parts either they or I missed.


I mean, it's entirely possible I missed stuff, but I basically went thru the entire rules section of the new book with my old codex sitting on my lap looking for changes.

Some I didn't list explicitly, like the now only acothyst melee weapon list, because there was no real point to it - electrocorrosive whip still head and shoulders above everything else at least IMO.

If you're curious:

Agonizer: S user, AP-3 D1 poison 4+
EC Whip: S 2, AP-2, D1 poison 4+, make 2 attacks for every attack made with this weapon
Flesh Gauntlet: S+1, Ap- D1 if attacking a non-vehicle, a wound of 6 does a mortal
MIndphase Gauntlet: S: user Ap-1 D2
Scissorhand: S: user AP-2 D1 Poisoned 4+, each time the bearer fights it makes 2 additional attacks
Venom Blade: S: User AP-1 D1 Poisoned 2+

Well....actually...

...I mean thinking about it, the downside to the ec whip is its fixed strength 2, so if you do have good strength you can't wound guardsmen on a 3+ or vehicles on a 5+, and there are ways to get acothysts to S4 with Urien Rakarth and Experimental Creations, so possibly every once in a while you may wan the scissorhand instead. But the additional AP makes both of them always better than the Mindphase Gauntlet, and the others aren't even close to being in consideration because the EC whip makes 6 attacks and the Scissorhand makes 5, while all the rest make 3 attacks with only 1 damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sterling191 wrote:
I'm curious how the Dark Creed +1 to hit shifts those numbers (if at all).


It makes the gauntlet setups even stronger, because all other melee weapons don't care about the +1 to hit after turn 3 (pfp boosting you up to a 2+ws) but the gauntlet continues to benefit even then due to the inbuilt -1 to hit.

The more I am looking at it, the more I am incredibly pumped about dark creed. subfaction-wide +1 to hit would be the most bonkers broken subfaction trait ever, and it is absolutely trivial to Ld bomb any unit in the game down to LD7 by putting either a raider or a venom nearby with grisly trophies. Most targets won't even need that, just by having a unit in melee you will be getting the +1 to hit against everything except necrons and custodes. Even in situations where the leadership malus is totally pointless, which it may sometimes be an incredibly easy means to score 15 secondary points against particular opponents, the +1 to hit can be crazy strong.

I don't even think i'll have to buy into it that much, I want poisoned tongue for my kabal anyway because I want them as safe chaff clearers, rolling with them as a splinterboat makes sense anyway.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 12:17:30


Post by: harlokin


Any opinons as to whether the Tantalus and Reaper intentionally lack PfP, and, if not, what is conceivably the soonest GW might address the issue?


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 12:20:50


Post by: the_scotsman


Incidentally @Vipoid I want to point out looking at it now, Soul-Seeker the relic pistol for poisoned tongue still ignores the Look Out Sir rule.

18" range, Pistol 2+, S2 AP-2 Dd3, ignores look out sir, ignores cover. in fact, that's the only one that does that, I'm not sure maybe I mixed up that one and the parasites kiss, which has 1 more shot flat 2 damage and 3 shots, but only 12" range and a different special rule. Soul Seeker has not been nerfed,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 harlokin wrote:
Any opinons as to whether the Tantalus and Reaper intentionally lack PfP, and, if not, what is conceivably the soonest GW might address the issue?


can't imagine it's intententional, maybe they'll change it in the 2-week FAQ. Giving them old FNP would have made them significantly stronger than new PFP, which barely affects vehicles at all.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 14:23:18


Post by: Sterling191


the_scotsman wrote:

It makes the gauntlet setups even stronger, because all other melee weapons don't care about the +1 to hit after turn 3 (pfp boosting you up to a 2+ws) but the gauntlet continues to benefit even then due to the inbuilt -1 to hit.


Twas my thought as well, but I'd already made some mistakes mathhammering the new loadouts so it's good to hear I'm not off base with that.

the_scotsman wrote:

I don't even think i'll have to buy into it that much, I want poisoned tongue for my kabal anyway because I want them as safe chaff clearers, rolling with them as a splinterboat makes sense anyway.


Major fringe benefit for Poisoned Tongue: they get the redeploy strat. And with the army retaining the capacity to put Wych or Coven units in a Kabal transport you can do all sorts of wacky things with it. The 3+ poison is definitely the main draw, but the strat is just icing so far as I'm concerned. Especially with the ability to shunt something into reserves and later disembark and charge on the drop.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 15:07:15


Post by: Tyel


Feel like there's a danger/inevitability you get a FAQ which swaps the EC Whip to 10 points.

As it stands its the only one worth bothering with, and it wouldn't be at 10 points.

I guess its endless escalation, but really think the Agonizer should have been 10 points but 2 damage.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 16:18:21


Post by: Xenomancers


The flayed skull nerf leaves a stale taste in my mouth....Nice how they remove choice from the equation though. Black heart ftw.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 16:32:38


Post by: flamingkillamajig


Is it weird for me to say poison might actually be decent for once. Sure splinter cannons shoot less but imagine the -1 ap and 2 damage vs monster sized units like riptides and you get it at 36”. Not to mention lots of units with good armor have good inv. Saves so high ap may not be needed. Also splinter racks sound great and poisoned tongue should help. This could be good but we may still need decent anti tank and dissies.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 17:27:11


Post by: the_scotsman


 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Is it weird for me to say poison might actually be decent for once. Sure splinter cannons shoot less but imagine the -1 ap and 2 damage vs monster sized units like riptides and you get it at 36”. Not to mention lots of units with good armor have good inv. Saves so high ap may not be needed. Also splinter racks sound great and poisoned tongue should help. This could be good but we may still need decent anti tank and dissies.


Yeah, I am 100% running poisoned tongue splinter rack raiders with a splinter cannon as the only weapon upgrade. Good, safe, reliable damage that if my opponent happens to be playing an army that's vulnerable to it gives me the easiest secondary in the world - just carve a GEQ squad in half and watch 3-4 members of the squad run away for that many VPs. And if they don't - still a good unit for putting damage on any non-vehicle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:
Feel like there's a danger/inevitability you get a FAQ which swaps the EC Whip to 10 points.

As it stands its the only one worth bothering with, and it wouldn't be at 10 points.

I guess its endless escalation, but really think the Agonizer should have been 10 points but 2 damage.


Yeah, basically if your wracks are S4 - scissorhand, otherwise - EC whip.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 18:20:37


Post by: Sterling191


the_scotsman wrote:

Yeah, I am 100% running poisoned tongue splinter rack raiders with a splinter cannon as the only weapon upgrade. Good, safe, reliable damage that if my opponent happens to be playing an army that's vulnerable to it gives me the easiest secondary in the world - just carve a GEQ squad in half and watch 3-4 members of the squad run away for that many VPs. And if they don't - still a good unit for putting damage on any non-vehicle.


I'm convinced we're going to see some combination of rules in the PT mini-supplement that will let them push to 2+ poison, even if only situationally. Elsewise the rules carveout where 2+ is the best poison can get, despite there being no other ways to improve said poison, wouldnt be there.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 18:24:53


Post by: the_scotsman


Sterling191 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

Yeah, I am 100% running poisoned tongue splinter rack raiders with a splinter cannon as the only weapon upgrade. Good, safe, reliable damage that if my opponent happens to be playing an army that's vulnerable to it gives me the easiest secondary in the world - just carve a GEQ squad in half and watch 3-4 members of the squad run away for that many VPs. And if they don't - still a good unit for putting damage on any non-vehicle.


in the PT mini-supplement


I'll take things that will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever in a million billion years happen for 500, Alex.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 18:28:06


Post by: Sterling191


the_scotsman wrote:

I'll take things that will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever in a million billion years happen for 500, Alex.


They've already started that train. Cult of Strife got theirs in Charadron vol1, alongside the fan favorites of...*checks notes* Forge World Metallica and Knight House Raven.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 18:31:56


Post by: the_scotsman


Sterling191 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

I'll take things that will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever in a million billion years happen for 500, Alex.


They've already started that train. Cult of Strife got theirs in Charadron vol1, alongside the fan favorites of...*checks notes* Forge World Metallica and Knight House Raven.


Yeah, like how they started the train of "Specialist Detachments" in the middle of 8th, of which they created like 6, then abandoned it and it was the very first thing invalidated in 9th.

There is a zero percent chance that anything GW does in a campaign supplement is going to be any kind of consistent, universal thing they'll apply evenly across all factions or subfactions. They're cheap, gakky cashgrabs, they throw them on the pile and leave them to rot, alongside the rules for any kind of terrain piece that gets rules or fortification or alternate game-mode.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 19:26:24


Post by: vipoid


Tyel wrote:
Feel like there's a danger/inevitability you get a FAQ which swaps the EC Whip to 10 points.

As it stands its the only one worth bothering with, and it wouldn't be at 10 points.

I guess its endless escalation, but really think the Agonizer should have been 10 points but 2 damage.


I was listening to Splintermind recently and I think they made a very good point on this topic.

Basically, they pointed out that SM HQs get upgraded versions of basic weapons. e.g. they might have a Master-Crafted Boltgun, which is like a regular boltgun except with better AP and damage than the standard version.

With Dark Eldar, though (and Xenos in general, for that matter) the Archon is using the exact same crap that the basic Sybarite gets. His Splinter Pistol is a regular Splinter Pistol with no extra AP or damage (AP0 D1, wooo). His Agoniser is a regular Agoniser. His Power Sword is a regular Power Sword. And the only actual unique weapon he gets is indefensibly abysmal and now apparently exists only so one Archon in your army can swap it for the Djin Blade.

It's a shame because there are a lot of things about this book that I really like. But I also really like HQs, and man did GW feth up the Archon.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 19:35:01


Post by: the_scotsman


...Stinger pistol, Haemonculus Tools, Archite Glaive, Huskblade...?

AFAIK he only unique things SM captains can get is the boltgun. Relic Blades are on a bunch of stuff.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 19:44:35


Post by: vipoid


the_scotsman wrote:
...Stinger pistol, Haemonculus Tools, Archite Glaive, Huskblade...?

AFAIK he only unique things SM captains can get is the boltgun. Relic Blades are on a bunch of stuff.


The point wasn't that Archons et al. have no unique gear.

It's that their non-unique gear is exactly the same as the weapons on basic troops.

They have no equivalent of Master Crafted weapons or anything along those lines.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 20:11:50


Post by: the_scotsman


...but they do though. At least qs much as a mc bolter which is just a d2 bolter.

The succubus gets a +1s power sword. The archon gets a D2 power sword. The haemonculus gets a poison 2+ splinter pistol and a poison 2+ wreck knife.

The relic blade is worse than basic equipment you can have on any sergeant but it's better than a power sword. The mc bolter is similar. All these things are is a way to make a classic power sword/boltgun captain not embarassing.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 20:15:12


Post by: Xenomancers


 vipoid wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
...Stinger pistol, Haemonculus Tools, Archite Glaive, Huskblade...?

AFAIK he only unique things SM captains can get is the boltgun. Relic Blades are on a bunch of stuff.


The point wasn't that Archons et al. have no unique gear.

It's that their non-unique gear is exactly the same as the weapons on basic troops.

They have no equivalent of Master Crafted weapons or anything along those lines.
A space marine hero is certainly more customizable but pretty much has the same gear as a sargent has access to. Most notibly though - they do have access to jump packs / bikes / excetra.

HEck even an Autarch can take a bunch of different customizations. Archons getting kinda screwed. Perhaps more models will yield more options. There is hope. Space marine chaplain on bike came out over 2 years after the primaris campaign.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 20:37:43


Post by: Tyel


Its just a different mindset, but I can imagine a world where Archons could have a -1 AP, 2 damage splinter rifle and it feels so meaningless in the grand scheme of things.



Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 21:14:57


Post by: Red Corsair


So I came up with a list last night in bed and had to jot it down before turning in. I think it's a pretty decent example of how I think a 9th edition coven army can operate using nearly all the units.

I still leaning toward Dark Tech as being the best faction obcession for a couple reasons. First is timing, I cannot put enough emphasis on how important it is to pressure the enemy ASAP with the new book, prolonged attrition is going to see assets dwindle long before they get to earn their points.

The ability to move and even advance if necessary and then use over charged liquifiers is massive now that they are 12" range. A raider even without advancing will give them a 26" threat range, with aethersails 34" and of course this stacks very well on turn 2 when you can get super speedy, still shoot and charge.

The only element missing is still the cronos who I would like to sub in and vet, but I just feel like his strat and abilities are too much of a gimmick and tempt you to make plays that are unfocussed on the mission and more on trying to advance a units PfP etc.

Dark tech IMHO is the best way to run any grotesque as well. The liquifiers essentially become a better version of the cleaver lol. Same number of hits on average, same AP and damage only 12" range, can overwatch and wound vehicles and GEQ more often. You still have the gauntlets as well on top.

Anyway heres the list, please give feedback or point out any list building issues. Also I havent assigned any WLT or relics so feel free to chime in there too.

Dark Technomancer detachment

130 Drazhar
80 Haemonculus

60 5 wracks 2 liquifiers
60 5 wracks 2 liquifiers
60 5 wracks 2 liquifiers

80 5 Incubi
160 10 Incubi
135 9 Mandrakes
135 9 Mandrakes
215 5 Grotesque 3 liquifiers
215 5 Grotesque 3 liquifiers

120 Talos Gauntlet, Ichor I, Heat Lances
120 Talos Gauntlet, Ichor I, Heat Lances

85 Raider Dark lance
85 Raider Dark lance
85 Raider Dark lance
85 Raider Dark lance
90 Raider Dark lance Grisly Trophies

2000 points


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 22:52:26


Post by: vipoid


I don't know if this is a silly question but do you think 5 Dark Lances and 2 Talos with Heat Lances are sufficient for dealing with vehicles?

Otherwise, I pity any infantry-armies that find themselves up against all those liquifiers (plus 15 Incubi, 10 Grotesques, Drazhar etc.).


 Red Corsair wrote:
The ability to move and even advance if necessary and then use over charged liquifiers is massive now that they are 12" range. A raider even without advancing will give them a 26" threat range, with aethersails 34" and of course this stacks very well on turn 2 when you can get super speedy, still shoot and charge.


Just a point but don't forget Raiders can't Advance and shoot now (since Lances/Disintegrators no longer become Assault when mounted).


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/25 23:13:28


Post by: Red Corsair


 vipoid wrote:
I don't know if this is a silly question but do you think 5 Dark Lances and 2 Talos with Heat Lances are sufficient for dealing with vehicles?

Otherwise, I pity any infantry-armies that find themselves up against all those liquifiers (plus 15 Incubi, 10 Grotesques, Drazhar etc.).


 Red Corsair wrote:
The ability to move and even advance if necessary and then use over charged liquifiers is massive now that they are 12" range. A raider even without advancing will give them a 26" threat range, with aethersails 34" and of course this stacks very well on turn 2 when you can get super speedy, still shoot and charge.


Just a point but don't forget Raiders can't Advance and shoot now (since Lances/Disintegrators no longer become Assault when mounted).


I hadn't, I was thinking more of the liquifiers on board but that is a good thing to highlight as I am sure it will take getting used to.

I think the 5 dark lances and 4 heat lances will be enough, maybe borderline normally, however don't forget all those liquifiers also wound any vehicle toughness 7 and under on a 4+ for -2 and 2 damage as well and they even wound toughness 8 and up on a 5+.

Then there are the incubi and drazhar in melee as well as the mortals from the madrakes should they survive turn 1.

I guess thats kind of why liquifiers are just so strong in this book. They do everything well.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/26 00:34:46


Post by: Tyel


I guess you'd need to play around and see.

You've got a decent assault threat. The issue is that Incubi and I think Grots (with DT anyway) are going to fall over to any half-decent counter-assault. So the game potentially turns into who charges who cat and mouse. Which is where an Archon with Ancient Evil or PoF Vexator Mask to effect who fights when would be handy.

I guess though my preference is a tendency to take a theme and abuse it until it breaks.
So another example with Dark Technomancers:

Haemi 80
Drazhar 135
10 Wracks 110 (3 Liquifiers)
10 Wracks 110 (3 Liquifiers)
10 Wracks 110 (3 Liquifiers)
10 Wracks 110 (3 Liquifiers)
10 Wracks 110 (3 Liquifiers)
5 Wracks 50 (Camping Unit)

5 Raiders 425
2 Talos 250 (Twin Liquifier)
2 Talos 250 (Twin Liquifier)
2 Talos 250 (Twin Liquifier)
(10 points left over, probably 2 gauntlets)

You've undoubtedly got better combat punch - but I'm not sure its sufficient to cover the fact I've got 27 Liquifiers to your 12. I've got 17 heavy damage shots to your 9.

The more I think of it, the more I think liquifier spam has legs. So it will probably be nerfed - but until that happens...

On Warlord Traits/Loadouts - I think you make Drazhar your warlord. Hes good anyway, but rerolling all hits and wounds is faintly broken.

By contrast the Haemi doesn't really have a lot to do. In my case unlocking D3 Wracks coming back a turn might be worth tweaking out 20 points, but... its not screaming amazing at me. So probably Master Regenesist and, for want of anything else, Helm of Spite.

Never quite sure how much a dash of deny helps - and a lot of lists don't include psykers. Historically I've found myself waiting until the key spell is cast.... and then my opponent promptly rolls a 10+ so its almost pointless to try. But it does cause some psychological warfare - and arguably the instilled perils effect means you can pounce on any low-cast roll. You just hit that 5+ smite? Well, hopefully you failed and eat some mortal wounds for your trouble.

Animus Vitae could also be handy, although the value of this relic seems massively skewed depending on whether you are going first or second.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/26 01:46:44


Post by: Red Corsair


Thats a nasty list but I only have 30 wracks so I'll honestly never field anything resembling that list. I do have 9 Talos and more then the now max 18 grots so I suppose I could go more all in on the covens for liquifiers.

But I also enjoy playing with more variety, hence why I have the mercs in there.

I see your point on durability but thats precisely why I am not running large units. The units are not really more durable now when you swell the unit, in fact I'd argue your worse off as MSU provides a harder mark for the enemy to meet efficiently. I see too many lists running 10 model incubi for example which is a huge over investment. Expect them to die no matter what after they charged in and 5 seems more then enough to kill most things, especially with morale.

The army is back to the play style it originally had when I picked them up in 3rd. You have to learn to be OK with heavy casualties, the speed and power is what makes the army function. In prior editions it was attrition that lost most games, however those editions had 7 turn games. With 5 turns I think you have to just put your foot on the gas.

I initially had the 10 man incubi unit split in 2 however I noticed it brought me to 7 elites. But I figure one 10 model unit and draz are OK for when something extra tough comes along.

I actually agree on the helm, I think its the only option that makes sense for that list anyway. I considered the Animus Vitae but realized its effects are too brief to be worthwhile.

I think I am most excited for making a wych cult list. I have 60 wyches, all the beasts, 25 hellions and 30 bikes. I am just so glad all 3 elements are now viable.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/26 01:56:32


Post by: the_scotsman


The wonderful Edge Miniatures has finally enabled me to build the talos brick I've wanted to for ages, but been turned off by because I didn't want every single talos to look identical, so as i go through and support every single part Ive worked together a list for it

This is a setup I'm eager to try:

Realspace Raid battalion - Cult of the Cursed Blade, Kabal of the Poisoned Tongue, Coven of the Dark Creed

Archon (Warlord: Eternal Hatred, Relic: Djinn Blade)
Haemonculus (Warlord: Master Artisan)
Succubus (Shardnet and Impaler, Warlord: Treacherous Deceiver)

10x Wyches, 1 of each wych weapon, PGL
10x Kabalites, Splinter cannon, PGL
10 Kabalites, Splinter cannon, PGL
5x Wracks, 2x Liquifiers
5x Wracks, Ossefactor+Hexrifle

Venom, Grisly Trophies
Raider, Grisly Trophies, PGL
Raider, Splinter Racks, PGL
Raider, Splinter Racks, PGL

3x Talos, 3x Gauntlets, 2x INjectors, 1x twin liquifier, 3x Twin heat lances
3x Talos, 3x Gauntlets, 2x INjectors, 1x twin liquifier, 3x Twin heat lances
1x Cronos, Vortex and Probe
5x Hellions, PGL
5x Hellions, PGL


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/26 02:56:12


Post by: Red Corsair


How many points is that?

Also has anyone see this magical strife succubus with 2 damage razor flails and competitive edge WLT that gets like 24 attacks lol?

I don't have the Charadon info so I am not sure exactly whats going on there but I saw a game with her and she seems a tad busted assuming they played it correctly.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/26 03:54:09


Post by: Sterling191


Pretty sure you can only max out at 20 unless you hyperstimm, and even then you're generally missing out on the absurd mortal wound output from running Precision Blows (which you need, especially against tougher targets thanks to the low AP and strength). Basically it's a combination of the boosted Succubi base attack, +3 from the WLT, doubled by the Razorflails, and then boosted with +1 Str and +1 damage from the Dark Lotus Toxin relic that Cult of Strife get in the supplement.

Tryptich Whip is generally where you want to go for bonkers attacks quantities since it's got baked in wound scaling and better AP. The good news is that you can actually run both setups in the same army for relatively cheap.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/26 11:14:49


Post by: the_scotsman


 Red Corsair wrote:
How many points is that?

Also has anyone see this magical strife succubus with 2 damage razor flails and competitive edge WLT that gets like 24 attacks lol?

I don't have the Charadon info so I am not sure exactly whats going on there but I saw a game with her and she seems a tad busted assuming they played it correctly.


2000, according to battlescribe.

Im assuming that razorflail build uses the grave lotus toxin though idk what competitive edge is.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/26 13:09:24


Post by: Sterling191


Competitive Edge is a Charadron WLT for Cult of Strife. It allows a Succubus to make an additional attack for each attack that didn't deal damage (IE: missed, failed to wound, or was saved). To use it however, requires one to put all of a model's attacks into a single target.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/27 11:56:59


Post by: Denegaar


Got my Codex! Writing down lists already


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/27 19:18:13


Post by: the_scotsman


It feels like theres three general battleplans that are feasible: a turn 1 pressure, turn 2 alpha strike, and a turn 2/turn 3 brick based attrition setup.

The first you'd be basing primarily around shooting units with mandrakes to limit turn 1 mobility from your opponent, the second youd base around fast or transported units for a mass turn 2 melee, and the latter would be either talos or wrack based.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/28 00:36:14


Post by: flamingkillamajig


I can't get the book yet because it sold out in a few hours and i had issues getting there before it was sold out.

They said the next time they re-stocked was wednesday.



Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/29 07:23:44


Post by: Scactha


the_scotsman wrote:
It feels like theres three general battleplans that are feasible: a turn 1 pressure, turn 2 alpha strike, and a turn 2/turn 3 brick based attrition setup.

The first you'd be basing primarily around shooting units with mandrakes to limit turn 1 mobility from your opponent, the second youd base around fast or transported units for a mass turn 2 melee, and the latter would be either talos or wrack based.
I´m sold on the 3rd there. Wracks seems the best brick Core in the game for the cost now, allowing you to do an annoying Dark Creed horde list with 2 x 20 Wracks + Cronos + Haemo and just park up center. If the opponent tries to engage they´ll be tarpitted and lose ObSec due to Master of Pain/Twisted Animator/Fear Incarnate.

That´s ~400 pts which would still leave a lot of points for hammer units.



Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/29 11:24:33


Post by: the_scotsman


 Scactha wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
It feels like theres three general battleplans that are feasible: a turn 1 pressure, turn 2 alpha strike, and a turn 2/turn 3 brick based attrition setup.

The first you'd be basing primarily around shooting units with mandrakes to limit turn 1 mobility from your opponent, the second youd base around fast or transported units for a mass turn 2 melee, and the latter would be either talos or wrack based.
I´m sold on the 3rd there. Wracks seems the best brick Core in the game for the cost now, allowing you to do an annoying Dark Creed horde list with 2 x 20 Wracks + Cronos + Haemo and just park up center. If the opponent tries to engage they´ll be tarpitted and lose ObSec due to Master of Pain/Twisted Animator/Fear Incarnate.

That´s ~400 pts which would still leave a lot of points for hammer units.



As much as I want Obsessive Collectors to be good, I think you're probably correct in that Dark Creed or Coven of 12 is probably superior with large units of wracks. Coven of 12 opens up a lot of extra scoring opportunities for you, and makes your wracks and haemonculus much more deadly to charge into, though Fear Incarnate is a heck of a tool to have on an objective. You can't have both it and twisted animator, though, and I don't think I'd want to leave that on the table...


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/29 12:08:38


Post by: vipoid


Random question - am I missing something with Dark Mirth?

It seems like a 1/3 chance to inflict a Mortal Wound if you happen to be within charge range of an enemy when they move. And because it's an aura you can't stack it.

Is there some trick with it or is it just crap?


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/29 12:23:54


Post by: the_scotsman


 vipoid wrote:
Random question - am I missing something with Dark Mirth?

It seems like a 1/3 chance to inflict a Mortal Wound if you happen to be within charge range of an enemy when they move. And because it's an aura you can't stack it.

Is there some trick with it or is it just crap?


I mean, depends on what your kabal detachment is.

Dark Mirth+Twisted Hunters for a kabal patrol that's mostly there to provide 2 Voidraven bombers, that sounds hilarious to me.

It definitely seems like the custom traits are intended to be not quite as strong general all-rounders as the core traits, and they're intended for smaller, focused detachments that really capitalize on one type of unit or weapon rather than the core traits which try to provide at least some kind of use to all units.

Except for flayed skull, which is awful, and just straight up outperformed by Mobile Raiders+Torturous Efficiency. That comparison seems to be what GW was attempting, with mixed success, to avoid.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/29 12:35:39


Post by: Amishprn86


 vipoid wrote:
Random question - am I missing something with Dark Mirth?

It seems like a 1/3 chance to inflict a Mortal Wound if you happen to be within charge range of an enemy when they move. And because it's an aura you can't stack it.

Is there some trick with it or is it just crap?


Its move, fallback, advance, or charge, you can have vehicles, fliers, etc... in places to get them hit coming and going.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/29 13:29:46


Post by: vipoid


the_scotsman wrote:

I mean, depends on what your kabal detachment is.

Dark Mirth+Twisted Hunters for a kabal patrol that's mostly there to provide 2 Voidraven bombers, that sounds hilarious to me.


Oh that's a fair point. I hadn't really considered fliers.


the_scotsman wrote:

It definitely seems like the custom traits are intended to be not quite as strong general all-rounders as the core traits, and they're intended for smaller, focused detachments that really capitalize on one type of unit or weapon rather than the core traits which try to provide at least some kind of use to all units.


I suppose to me it just seems a little odd to do it that way. Given that custom kabals don't give bonus relics, warlord traits or strategems, you'd think they should lean towards being slightly stronger than the standard ones.


the_scotsman wrote:

Except for flayed skull, which is awful, and just straight up outperformed by Mobile Raiders+Torturous Efficiency. That comparison seems to be what GW was attempting, with mixed success, to avoid.


That's true. Though, honestly, I'm not even sure I'd bother trying to replicate FS' current effect. I know it's only 1" difference from before but somehow +2"M just doesn't feel worth bothering with.

I imagine things aren't helped by the fact that FS' strategem, warlord trait and artefact are all skippable.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/29 13:59:55


Post by: the_scotsman


They are a bit stronger, but they're stronger in a way that makes them more specialized, so you're incentivized to take them when you're designing a detachment around a particular unit or weapon type. At least, that's my reading of them anyway. I'd rather avoid a situation like space marines, where half the chapters basically don't practically exist, because everyone just uses the two best custom chapter traits and takes their bonus extras.

Coven of 12 gives me a nice balanced mix of scoring utility, offense, and extra character assassination potential. I ahve a reason to get excited about Co12 Wracks, Haemonculi, and Grotesques. Dark Technomancers makes Liquifiers and Liquifiers Specifically REALLY REALLY REALLY good, so I'm likely to reach for that if I just want to dip into covens a little bit in a mixed list that's mostly based around kabals or cults.

But yeah FS is just a complete dumpster fire. Their strat is...OK, I guess, but you can basically just get it for free with any kabal by including a unit of Trueborn with double blaster+dark lance in your list, that's plenty to have a bit of flexi-anti air in your list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
First drukhari codex test yesterday was a success! My list was a realspace raid battalion:

Black heart kabal
Master Murder archon
10 trueborns with 2 blasters+dark lance in a raider
5x incubi in a raider with the archon
5x Mandrakes

Cult of red grief
Blood glaive+Transhuman dodgeiology Succubus
10x wyches with 1 of everything plus power sword/pgl hekatrix
15x hellions with pgl
12x reavers with 4 heat lances
Raider for the wyches

Coven of Dark Creed

Haemie with Master Regenerist
5x wracks 2x liquifiers
venom for the wracks
5x grots all melee
raider for the grots+Haemie
Cronos with probe

my opponent was Ultramarines, he had the sniper captain, 2x lieutenants, shoot when you die banner dude, tigurius, 4x rifle intercessor squads, a max unit of flamer aggressors, 2x eradicators and 1x plasma inceptors in deep strike, and a squad of bladeguard vets+justicar+ancient in a flying rhino

We played surround and destroy, I picked the mission objective for that mission+engage+assassinate to kill all those characters. Mostly I was looking to design this list just to test the performance of a bunch of units rather than as a coherent, wholly synergistic list. I wanted to try a bunch of stuff out. I deployed with most of my units out of easy LOS or at least behind -1 to hit terrain, prioritizing stuff like reavers and hellions out of LOS, and deployed the mandrakes midboard out of true LOS in a ruin corner. My opponent won first turn, moved up with the transport, moved up with the aggressors, and raised banners with all the intercessors on the 4 objectives closest to him. He required a 10 to get into the mandrakes with the aggressors and rolled a 12, so I ended up with 6 -1 to hit aggressors in cover right in my face bottom of turn 1. Basically nothing else died because everything was either raising banners, out of range, or not on the board yet.

Right off the bat I got to do something I really wanted to try: pop Eviscerating Flyby with 15 hellions right onto those aggressors. That worked absolutely brilliantly - 9 mortal wounds, of which he only blocked 2 with the 5+ vs mortal wounds stratagem. I popped out the grotesques and haemie and moved them and the cronos up the board, and hit them with the liquifiers and spirit syphon to kill 1 more aggressor, ate the overwatch with their raider, gobbled them up in melee and popped the strat to set the grots to turn 5.

Elsewhere on the map, my reavers charged a squad of intercessors to remove a banner, I put every dark lance and heat lance into the transport and blew it away, and aethersails'd the wyches raider into the 4th table quadrant right in front of the Bladeguard to score Engage and limit where they could move.

Turn 2 a bunch of rude customers showed up all over the board, basically each deep striking squad popped up in a different location. I popped Lightning Reactions on the wyches raider to make them a pain in the ass and my opponent had to put a bunch of extra firepower into it from Intercessors to take it out because the Eradicators didn't manage it. Plasma inceptors killed most of the Reavers but the heat lances were still intact, Incubi raider with the archon got popped by more Eradicators but as the intercessors had already pinch-hit to get the wyches raider dead they weren't around to shoot the incubi.

Bladeguard took out most of the wyches, but the 'can only hit me on a 4+' on the succubus came in super clutch and she didn't take a scratch from the justicar and she sliced his ass apart with the blood glaive.

In a familiar pattern to basically every game I've played against marines since the 9th ed starter came out, turn 2 was spent whacking eradicators and inceptors, I got to use Eviscerating Flyby a second time on the Hellions, advancing them all the way across the board to the Bladeguard Vets and dropping a nice 6 mortal wounds on them. Grotesques rolled onto another squad of intercessors on a banner, hilariously the cronos managed to kill a whole marine by himself and resurrected a dead wych. Archon survived a sweaty palms overwatch moment to kill a squad of eradicators, incubi rolled into the captain and murdered him before getting heroically intervened into and killed by Tigurius, various firepower throughout the board killed the other eradicators and inceptors (min damage 3 dark lances are really great) and the game was basically over from there.

Bait Mandrakes might be a tactic I'll try again sometime - the primary plan for them was to try and limit the Aggressors' movement, but actually granting the aggressors extra movement allowed me to basically take over the board and remove a huge threat from the opposing army.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/30 17:26:27


Post by: Xenomancers


Dark Mirth Is for sure going to be the route I take. Then for wych Cults I really like the additional combat drug roll. Not sold on a secondary trait for ether of these but I think 3 Patrols

Dark Mirth use Void ravens and raiders to get in close and spread those mortals around. Probably take the second trait for 6'sd generate additional hits for poison. Seems to be good.

Wych cults with 3 combat drug traits? OMG. Could get really silly. For the secondary trait on this? Any ideas?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Scots - wouldnt you want blasters on your revers? Heatlances are heavy.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/30 18:05:47


Post by: dumb_numpty


 Xenomancers wrote:
Wych cults with 3 combat drug traits?


I haven't seen anyone talking about this but should I assume the D3 roll on the Drugs table for Stimulant Innovators is a misprint and it should be D6? I mean, 1-4 are the best ones so I'd take D3, but it doesn't make sense.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/30 18:10:50


Post by: Xenomancers


dumb_numpty wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Wych cults with 3 combat drug traits?


I haven't seen anyone talking about this but should I assume the D3 roll on the Drugs table for Stimulant Innovators is a misprint and it should be D6? I mean, 1-4 are the best ones so I'd take D3, but it doesn't make sense.

My intitial take was that it was the first 3 would be the weakest but...It is +1 A or +1 Str or and I forget the other but it is still good - it is actually better this way! I think D6 was probably the intent but it might never get noticed. So lets not make too much fuss about it.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 00:22:47


Post by: the_scotsman


isnt the heavy penalty infantry only now? I thought it was.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 00:58:13


Post by: Sterling191


the_scotsman wrote:
isnt the heavy penalty infantry only now? I thought it was.


It is. Bikes can move and fire without penalty (part of why MM Attack Bikes are so nasty for Marines). They just cant fire into engaged with the other half of the Big Guns Never Tire rule.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 01:32:15


Post by: Amishprn86


Or advance and shoot, which is a big nerf to bikes, scourges, Talos, etc... but I think its bc we to advance and charge on turn 2 now.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 02:05:00


Post by: the_scotsman


 Amishprn86 wrote:
Or advance and shoot, which is a big nerf to bikes, scourges, Talos, etc... but I think its bc we to advance and charge on turn 2 now.


its something to consider with Talos maybe, but bikes I don't think care at all. They move an absurd amount and their melee is only meh - if you're taking reavers for melee, you should have taken Hellions. Reavers are the wych cults' best answer to tanks.Melee is just a bonus/a clutch way to keep an opponent from targeting the reavers.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 03:36:00


Post by: Sterling191


Reavers have a 36" threat range with Lances at minimum. That's plenty mobile enough to get the shot off.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 04:32:38


Post by: Amishprn86


the_scotsman wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Or advance and shoot, which is a big nerf to bikes, scourges, Talos, etc... but I think its bc we to advance and charge on turn 2 now.


its something to consider with Talos maybe, but bikes I don't think care at all. They move an absurd amount and their melee is only meh - if you're taking reavers for melee, you should have taken Hellions. Reavers are the wych cults' best answer to tanks.Melee is just a bonus/a clutch way to keep an opponent from targeting the reavers.


They are TAC units, they can shoot and melee. Hellions are better in melee yes but needing that extra range on Reavers is important sometimes and its good to remember you can not Advance and shoot with HL's this might change how someone plays them or what to put on them.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 06:58:44


Post by: Blackie


9 bikes with 3 heat lances and 3 grav talos are 225 points. Super fast and BS2+ with the drug. And with 3 attacks each at S4 AP-1 plus eventually a special weapon for the leader for 5 points they might be good even in combat if they really need to charge something that isn't a dedicated fighter.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 07:30:07


Post by: Scactha


Also nice for Eviscerating Fly by's. 4-5MW


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 07:56:57


Post by: Blackie


Yeah, and if it's a Strife unit it can also fire twice for 2CPs.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 09:44:43


Post by: harlokin


There seems to be something of a 'consensus' forming that Realspace Raid detachments are somewhat of a trap option. Has anybody got an alternative point of view, or experience?


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 09:55:14


Post by: lessthanjeff


Sterling191 wrote:
Reavers have a 36" threat range with Lances at minimum. That's plenty mobile enough to get the shot off.


Advancing and shooting was less about the threat range to me and more about being able to get in a position to assassinate a character or steal an objective. You often needed to advance over enemy units or to move from one spot of cover to behind the wall of another to do so. That ability has been diminished by the weapons changing to heavy, but they are better at just moving up with your army and shooting at least. I have taken them out of my list designs for now though.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 10:18:51


Post by: wuestenfux


Still waiting for the codex and cards due to Brexit delay.
Question: Is my 8th ed standard list still playable?

2x Archon, 3x Warriors in Venoms, some Scourges, 3x Ravager, 3x Taloi, 3x flyers.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 10:40:21


Post by: harlokin


 wuestenfux wrote:
Still waiting for the codex and cards due to Brexit delay.
Question: Is my 8th ed standard list still playable?

2x Archon, 3x Warriors in Venoms, some Scourges, 3x Ravager, 3x Taloi, 3x flyers.


"Playable" covers a lot of ground

Archons are good (ish) as long as you don't want to field more than one, and you give that one a Djin Blade. You can get ok use out of a buff version as long as they are BH and have WotLM.

Warriors are very good, maybe more attractive to field in units of 10 now.

Venoms are ok, not bad, but a bit less good than Raiders now (points cost still unclear)

Scourge have increased durabilty, their heavy weapon option do much more damage now, while Shredders have better range.

Ravagers are still good (maybe a tiny bit too expensive), and you will probably want to run them with Dark Lances.

Taloi are still good, but also depends somewhat on their Coven Obsession.

Razorwings are a bit mediocre, Voidravens seem a bit better than them, and their bomb could be useful if you play against opponents who like to castle-up.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 11:25:59


Post by: the_scotsman


 harlokin wrote:
There seems to be something of a 'consensus' forming that Realspace Raid detachments are somewhat of a trap option. Has anybody got an alternative point of view, or experience?


I don't think that at all, personally. If you're bringing one of each sub-faction I think it's the best way to go, particularly if you find yourself wanting to use a lot of troops. You get 1 less cp to start with compared to patrols (assuming you'll be using Alliance of Agony instead of 2 uses of Ambition) but even just with a battalion you end up with extra slots for what you want to bring (not having just 2 wych cult fast slots or 2 HC heavy slots is nice IMO)

I'm extremely pumped for my RSR setup with the support archon giving rr1s to hit and to wound to a bunch of talos pain engines.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 11:27:19


Post by: Blackie


 wuestenfux wrote:
Still waiting for the codex and cards due to Brexit delay.
Question: Is my 8th ed standard list still playable?

2x Archon, 3x Warriors in Venoms, some Scourges, 3x Ravager, 3x Taloi, 3x flyers.


Not in a realspace detachment as you don't have enough slots for all the flyers, multiple archons and 4+ heavy supports.

You can play 3 patrols to fit everything though, 2 kabal based and 1 with the coven stuff.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 11:27:48


Post by: the_scotsman


 wuestenfux wrote:
Still waiting for the codex and cards due to Brexit delay.
Question: Is my 8th ed standard list still playable?

2x Archon, 3x Warriors in Venoms, some Scourges, 3x Ravager, 3x Taloi, 3x flyers.


It is actually, only just now playable. Because you can bring Covens in a Kabal detachment without losing your Kabal subfaction trait. So that's nice. The Talos aren't going to be 100% optimal outside of a covens detachment, but they'll be OK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Or advance and shoot, which is a big nerf to bikes, scourges, Talos, etc... but I think its bc we to advance and charge on turn 2 now.


its something to consider with Talos maybe, but bikes I don't think care at all. They move an absurd amount and their melee is only meh - if you're taking reavers for melee, you should have taken Hellions. Reavers are the wych cults' best answer to tanks.Melee is just a bonus/a clutch way to keep an opponent from targeting the reavers.


They are TAC units, they can shoot and melee. Hellions are better in melee yes but needing that extra range on Reavers is important sometimes and its good to remember you can not Advance and shoot with HL's this might change how someone plays them or what to put on them.


Yeah thats true. I do think the extra 5pts for blasters and the extra 2pts of damage plus the guaranteed instapop of a 3w model definitely makes heat lances my go to option for reaver bikes though.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 11:29:48


Post by: harlokin


the_scotsman wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
There seems to be something of a 'consensus' forming that Realspace Raid detachments are somewhat of a trap option. Has anybody got an alternative point of view, or experience?


I don't think that at all, personally. If you're bringing one of each sub-faction I think it's the best way to go, particularly if you find yourself wanting to use a lot of troops. You get 1 less cp to start with compared to patrols (assuming you'll be using Alliance of Agony instead of 2 uses of Ambition) but even just with a battalion you end up with extra slots for what you want to bring (not having just 2 wych cult fast slots or 2 HC heavy slots is nice IMO)

I'm extremely pumped for my RSR setup with the support archon giving rr1s to hit and to wound to a bunch of talos pain engines.


I'm of the same mind, I love me some Alliance of Agony.

What many seem to be arguing is that the optimal Patrol setups are 2 Kabal & 1 Cult, 1 Kabal & 2 Cult, or 3 Coven. The implication is that Coven doesn't play well with others.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 11:31:06


Post by: Blackie


 harlokin wrote:
There seems to be something of a 'consensus' forming that Realspace Raid detachments are somewhat of a trap option. Has anybody got an alternative point of view, or experience?


It is at lower points games. In 1500-2000 points games it's a solid option. You don't typically want more than 3 HS, 3 FA or 6 elites anyway or more than 6 troops or 3 characters.

The only downside is leaving drazhar as 4 characters are too much, but I think I'd skip drazhar anyway. Too many eggs in the same basket if he joins incubi, and if he doesn't I don't really see the point of bringing him. Really, if you don't want drazhar there's no point not to use the realspace.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 harlokin wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
There seems to be something of a 'consensus' forming that Realspace Raid detachments are somewhat of a trap option. Has anybody got an alternative point of view, or experience?


I don't think that at all, personally. If you're bringing one of each sub-faction I think it's the best way to go, particularly if you find yourself wanting to use a lot of troops. You get 1 less cp to start with compared to patrols (assuming you'll be using Alliance of Agony instead of 2 uses of Ambition) but even just with a battalion you end up with extra slots for what you want to bring (not having just 2 wych cult fast slots or 2 HC heavy slots is nice IMO)

I'm extremely pumped for my RSR setup with the support archon giving rr1s to hit and to wound to a bunch of talos pain engines.


I'm of the same mind, I love me some Alliance of Agony.

What many seem to be arguing is that the optimal Patrol setups are 2 Kabal & 1 Cult, 1 Kabal & 2 Cult, or 3 Coven. The implication is that Coven doesn't play well with others.


I'm not really a fan of kabal stuff. Most of the list I've tried to write don't have more than an Archon, a unit of trueborn in a raider and eventually up to 2 ravagers. Everything else, especially more kabalites I'd skip.

Coven can play very well with others, just think of a Dark Creed detachment in a list full of PGLs. Cronos can buff every drukhari units, etc...


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 12:04:28


Post by: the_scotsman


 harlokin wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
There seems to be something of a 'consensus' forming that Realspace Raid detachments are somewhat of a trap option. Has anybody got an alternative point of view, or experience?


I don't think that at all, personally. If you're bringing one of each sub-faction I think it's the best way to go, particularly if you find yourself wanting to use a lot of troops. You get 1 less cp to start with compared to patrols (assuming you'll be using Alliance of Agony instead of 2 uses of Ambition) but even just with a battalion you end up with extra slots for what you want to bring (not having just 2 wych cult fast slots or 2 HC heavy slots is nice IMO)

I'm extremely pumped for my RSR setup with the support archon giving rr1s to hit and to wound to a bunch of talos pain engines.


I'm of the same mind, I love me some Alliance of Agony.

What many seem to be arguing is that the optimal Patrol setups are 2 Kabal & 1 Cult, 1 Kabal & 2 Cult, or 3 Coven. The implication is that Coven doesn't play well with others.


Interesting, I feel like RSR is the most optimal way to field pain engines and pain engines are one of the best coven setups. Also, I'm not quite as enamored with dark tech but if you do bring it I wouldn't think you'd want your whole army built from it.

I definitely think patrols should be the default option and RSR should only be brought when you want to leverage its specific benefits towards mostly hired blade units. but it's not automatically always worse. That's my take on it anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
basically the main benefit I see for the rsr is:

-archon is automatically more useful, so if you don't want to just bring murdarchon you probably want to bring a RSR

-you can bring a third heavy/third fast without needing to bring an almost always less optimal second identical HQ.

So my RSR setups are often when I want to bring things like Pain Engine heavy lists, Beasts which are real slot suckers now, and hired blades as opposed to the builds that are heavier on one of the three subfactions in particular or heavier on troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
RSR brigade might be a trap. maybe. I dunno, I feel like it could be solid if you take a gimme on one of the slots, like you go beastmaster+3x fiends to fill up your fast slots and you go real light on wyches, and then your 6 troops are like 1 trueborn squad 1 wych squad and then 4 dark tech wrack venoms. Then you go trip ravager for heavies and get drazar and some incubi squads in the mix for elites, or you go for a ton of mandrakes for super hard board control.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 12:33:23


Post by: Tyel


Intuitively buff Archon from RSR is nice for almost everyone. Even a near mono-Covens list probably shouldn't sniff at rerolling 1s to hit - and the opportunity cost of having to bring one good Archon, one good Succubus and 90 points of decent troops doesn't seem that high. If you could make 2-3 "Good" haemonculi it might be different, but I don't think you can (I'm not even sure there's one which you always want in a list).

I sort of feel Drazhar is an auto-take though. You do admittedly get quite a bit for his points - 8 incubi for instance will do more damage. But they are also probably easier for your opponent to deal with, and need their own transport rather than just riding along with everyone else. (I think there is a debate to be had on transports. It's probably the case that 2-3 protecting key squads is better than going all in with 5+, even if they are quite decent as it stands).


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 12:38:39


Post by: Amishprn86


the_scotsman wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Still waiting for the codex and cards due to Brexit delay.
Question: Is my 8th ed standard list still playable?

2x Archon, 3x Warriors in Venoms, some Scourges, 3x Ravager, 3x Taloi, 3x flyers.


It is actually, only just now playable. Because you can bring Covens in a Kabal detachment without losing your Kabal subfaction trait. So that's nice. The Talos aren't going to be 100% optimal outside of a covens detachment, but they'll be OK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Or advance and shoot, which is a big nerf to bikes, scourges, Talos, etc... but I think its bc we to advance and charge on turn 2 now.


its something to consider with Talos maybe, but bikes I don't think care at all. They move an absurd amount and their melee is only meh - if you're taking reavers for melee, you should have taken Hellions. Reavers are the wych cults' best answer to tanks.Melee is just a bonus/a clutch way to keep an opponent from targeting the reavers.


They are TAC units, they can shoot and melee. Hellions are better in melee yes but needing that extra range on Reavers is important sometimes and its good to remember you can not Advance and shoot with HL's this might change how someone plays them or what to put on them.


Yeah thats true. I do think the extra 5pts for blasters and the extra 2pts of damage plus the guaranteed instapop of a 3w model definitely makes heat lances my go to option for reaver bikes though.


I hope Blasters are a miss print and they are actually 10pts on them.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 12:50:39


Post by: the_scotsman


Tyel wrote:
Intuitively buff Archon from RSR is nice for almost everyone. Even a near mono-Covens list probably shouldn't sniff at rerolling 1s to hit - and the opportunity cost of having to bring one good Archon, one good Succubus and 90 points of decent troops doesn't seem that high. If you could make 2-3 "Good" haemonculi it might be different, but I don't think you can (I'm not even sure there's one which you always want in a list).

I sort of feel Drazhar is an auto-take though. You do admittedly get quite a bit for his points - 8 incubi for instance will do more damage. But they are also probably easier for your opponent to deal with, and need their own transport rather than just riding along with everyone else. (I think there is a debate to be had on transports. It's probably the case that 2-3 protecting key squads is better than going all in with 5+, even if they are quite decent as it stands).


Yeah, I definitely do think what you're comparing is "Coven patrol 1: led by your 1 good trait/relic haemonculus, Coven patrol 2: led by Drazar" which is admittedly some tough competition, because it means I get to really powergame my setup. Coven 1 can be Artists of Flesh with a haemie beefing up 2 maxed out units of talos and Coven 2 can be Dark Tech with liquifier wracks, a cronos (who can still do everything he needs to do with the Talos as well, since one of the Cronos' hidden upsides is every single one of his abilities is subfaction-agnostic).

I don't know why you'd want a third coven after that, I'd think if I had any points left to bring a few things I'd probably pop into Wych Cults since you can make a succubus into a little firecracker and a squad of wyches is never necessarily a bad thing to have.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 14:30:40


Post by: Tyel


I'd agree. Certainly splitting your traits on Wracks and Talos seems the way to go.

One downside to the RSR is that I don't think you can have Drazhar with a warlord trait if you do? Although I'd need to check the exact wording.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 14:35:24


Post by: the_scotsman


Tyel wrote:
I'd agree. Certainly splitting your traits on Wracks and Talos seems the way to go.

One downside to the RSR is that I don't think you can have Drazhar with a warlord trait if you do? Although I'd need to check the exact wording.


you can't, but the trait is way less important to have on drazar as it is to have on an archon. Drazar already hits almost everything on 2s and wounds almost everything on 2s. The archon with the djinn wounds most things on 4s and 5s so the reroll to wound matters way more.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 15:30:15


Post by: Xenomancers


the_scotsman wrote:
isnt the heavy penalty infantry only now? I thought it was.

The issue is biks really benefit from an 8" auto advance. The spliter rifles are almost meaningless - charging back line units and hoping over units with a 18" + 8" with a possible +3" from combat drugs. I think it is worth having the option to fire after advancing with your revers.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 15:49:12


Post by: the_scotsman


 Xenomancers wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
isnt the heavy penalty infantry only now? I thought it was.

The issue is biks really benefit from an 8" auto advance. The spliter rifles are almost meaningless - charging back line units and hoping over units with a 18" + 8" with a possible +3" from combat drugs. I think it is worth having the option to fire after advancing with your revers.


Makes sense, idk if 15pts is worth it for a single 4+ to hit blaster shot, though I know that 10pts is worth it for a single 2+ to hit heat lance shot, which is 100% how I'll be fielding mine. if I'm bringing a fast unit for dedicated melee it'll be hellions - roll for 2 drugs because 100% of the table is good for them, take them in Test of Skill/Precision Blows alongside some Bloodbrides for unlimited tank-stabbing fun.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 16:02:45


Post by: Sterling191


Something else to factor in on the Hellions vs. Reavers debate:

The former can take a PGL. The latter can't.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 16:11:13


Post by: the_scotsman


Sterling191 wrote:
Something else to factor in on the Hellions vs. Reavers debate:

The former can take a PGL. The latter can't.


Grav talons are functionally extremely similar, so it isnt really a factor for me.

I don't know if there can be much of a debate tbh. a Hellion is -1sv (doesnt matter, anything anyone shoots at a W2 target is going to be AP-2 or better), -4" movement (18" with no advance and charge turn 1 basically heavily limits reavers ability to be turn 1 tempo units anyway, so they both end up easily within charge range turn 2) but gets damage flat 2 on its melee weapon, its basic ranged weapon is assault, and it's 15% cheaper.

reavers' melee capabilities have to be secondary to their ranged capabilities or youre just playing worse hellions. Luckily you can play them as primarily ranged threats very easily - we've got a double shoot strat, we've got +1BS drugs, and they mount the best drukhari antitank gun. Basically they're a solid middle ground between the pure suicide unit of Scourges and the more defensive but no board control lance Ravager. It takes a deceptively long time to actually kill enough of them to start getting to the Heat Lances, they can sweep enemy units off of lightly defended midboard objectives or blow up transports with their guns and sweep the occupants. Theyre also the perfect target for Pain Syphon if you have a Cronos on the board, since it's fairly easy to pop something with them turn 1, and the morale immunity and 5++ is going to greatly help them survive any return firepower that's going to inevitably get flung their way after they double shoot the first time.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 16:48:14


Post by: Xenomancers


Big winners for the codex in my mind.

Succubus - Per point it just hits harder than anything else in melee.

Wyches - Insanely good. Probably the best unit in the codex.

Raiders/Warriors - Spliter racks are nasty/ You can actually get decent melee out of your raiders / dark lance is amazing. Too bad you can only bring one unit of true born.

Void ravens - bomb buffed to hilarious levels. Missiles got significantly better too.



Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/03/31 23:45:00


Post by: Rivener


the_scotsman wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Something else to factor in on the Hellions vs. Reavers debate:

The former can take a PGL. The latter can't.


Grav talons are functionally extremely similar, so it isnt really a factor for me.

I don't know if there can be much of a debate tbh. a Hellion is -1sv (doesnt matter, anything anyone shoots at a W2 target is going to be AP-2 or better), -4" movement (18" with no advance and charge turn 1 basically heavily limits reavers ability to be turn 1 tempo units anyway, so they both end up easily within charge range turn 2) but gets damage flat 2 on its melee weapon, its basic ranged weapon is assault, and it's 15% cheaper.

reavers' melee capabilities have to be secondary to their ranged capabilities or youre just playing worse hellions. Luckily you can play them as primarily ranged threats very easily - we've got a double shoot strat, we've got +1BS drugs, and they mount the best drukhari antitank gun. Basically they're a solid middle ground between the pure suicide unit of Scourges and the more defensive but no board control lance Ravager. It takes a deceptively long time to actually kill enough of them to start getting to the Heat Lances, they can sweep enemy units off of lightly defended midboard objectives or blow up transports with their guns and sweep the occupants. Theyre also the perfect target for Pain Syphon if you have a Cronos on the board, since it's fairly easy to pop something with them turn 1, and the morale immunity and 5++ is going to greatly help them survive any return firepower that's going to inevitably get flung their way after they double shoot the first time.



The shoot twice strat is only for Wych units, not Wych Cult.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 12:14:23


Post by: the_scotsman


So, here's a question:

Obviously, the murder archon, we know him we love him. But a small detail I did overlook upon watching some batreps is, in 9th ed, you do actually get to choose which save you want to roll any time you have to take a save. So if you have an archon with a shadowfield and some AP- attack comes your way, you can choose to take the armor save instead of the invuln to try and preserve the field.

Does this change the ball game any for our many many defensive archon relics?

Consider the Obsidian Rose Armor of misery/Consummate Weaponmaster Venom Blade master archon. Or even the soulhelm 4+/5+FNP always -1 to hit/Consummate Weaponmaster venom blade archon. An attack from an ork or space marine fist has a 7.8% chance of popping the shadowfield, meaning it will most assuredly go down if he gets attacked by even a min squad of orks or space marines. But wearing either of these relics, he only has an 11% chance of taking a wound, which means an archon would only take 3 wounds on average from a squad of 10 ork boyz or 1.6 wounds from a squad of 5 primaris intercessors on the charge.

It's true he gives up a lot of damage compared to ye murder archon, but with his double attack round he's still perfectly comfortable bringing down a space marine captain or even a gravis/terminator captain thanks to that damage 2 on his venom blade and Blade Artists.

Am I overthinking this? Should the secondary archon if you want to take one just grab the soul seeker or parasites kiss and pop back brewskis with the boys in a venom while he steadily makes his 65 points back murking space mehrines?


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 13:36:23


Post by: Xenomancers


the_scotsman wrote:
So, here's a question:

Obviously, the murder archon, we know him we love him. But a small detail I did overlook upon watching some batreps is, in 9th ed, you do actually get to choose which save you want to roll any time you have to take a save. So if you have an archon with a shadowfield and some AP- attack comes your way, you can choose to take the armor save instead of the invuln to try and preserve the field.

Does this change the ball game any for our many many defensive archon relics?

Consider the Obsidian Rose Armor of misery/Consummate Weaponmaster Venom Blade master archon. Or even the soulhelm 4+/5+FNP always -1 to hit/Consummate Weaponmaster venom blade archon. An attack from an ork or space marine fist has a 7.8% chance of popping the shadowfield, meaning it will most assuredly go down if he gets attacked by even a min squad of orks or space marines. But wearing either of these relics, he only has an 11% chance of taking a wound, which means an archon would only take 3 wounds on average from a squad of 10 ork boyz or 1.6 wounds from a squad of 5 primaris intercessors on the charge.

It's true he gives up a lot of damage compared to ye murder archon, but with his double attack round he's still perfectly comfortable bringing down a space marine captain or even a gravis/terminator captain thanks to that damage 2 on his venom blade and Blade Artists.

Am I overthinking this? Should the secondary archon if you want to take one just grab the soul seeker or parasites kiss and pop back brewskis with the boys in a venom while he steadily makes his 65 points back murking space mehrines?
I don't think you are overthinking it. I am actually leaning toward the 2 damage venom blade build myself for a primary archon. I am not really considering a secondary archon. I would include 0 archons if you didn't pretty much have to take one.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 14:05:04


Post by: the_scotsman


 Xenomancers wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
So, here's a question:

Obviously, the murder archon, we know him we love him. But a small detail I did overlook upon watching some batreps is, in 9th ed, you do actually get to choose which save you want to roll any time you have to take a save. So if you have an archon with a shadowfield and some AP- attack comes your way, you can choose to take the armor save instead of the invuln to try and preserve the field.

Does this change the ball game any for our many many defensive archon relics?

Consider the Obsidian Rose Armor of misery/Consummate Weaponmaster Venom Blade master archon. Or even the soulhelm 4+/5+FNP always -1 to hit/Consummate Weaponmaster venom blade archon. An attack from an ork or space marine fist has a 7.8% chance of popping the shadowfield, meaning it will most assuredly go down if he gets attacked by even a min squad of orks or space marines. But wearing either of these relics, he only has an 11% chance of taking a wound, which means an archon would only take 3 wounds on average from a squad of 10 ork boyz or 1.6 wounds from a squad of 5 primaris intercessors on the charge.

It's true he gives up a lot of damage compared to ye murder archon, but with his double attack round he's still perfectly comfortable bringing down a space marine captain or even a gravis/terminator captain thanks to that damage 2 on his venom blade and Blade Artists.

Am I overthinking this? Should the secondary archon if you want to take one just grab the soul seeker or parasites kiss and pop back brewskis with the boys in a venom while he steadily makes his 65 points back murking space mehrines?
I don't think you are overthinking it. I am actually leaning toward the 2 damage venom blade build myself for a primary archon. I am not really considering a secondary archon. I would include 0 archons if you didn't pretty much have to take one.


the damage differential between 7 (or 14) S4 AP-3 D3 RRhits+Wounds attacks and 5 (or 10) S3 (poison 2+) AP-1 D2 attacks is pretty high though.

Mainly I'm comparing between murdarchon+incubi and weaponmaster archon with 4 sslyths and an ur-ghul. The murdarchon and incubi can kill 12 MEQ without even bothering to pop the archon's double attack, but then they're 5 3+ 6++ wounds and 5 4+ 2++(shadowfield) wounds - pretty dang easy to take out the incubi with a few high quality shots and the archon with a bunch of cheap gakky attacks. Weaponmaster archon and the Court takes down only 1/2 as many MEQ, but then you're looking at 15 6++ 5+FNP wounds from the court and an archon with 4+, 2++ shadowfield, 5+FNP, and -1 to hit.

if you can get the squad into some big expensive unit of terminators or bladeguard vets or custodes or something, 100% that archon+incubi squad is going to trade way, way up in terms of point value. But you can plow that archon+court into a midfield objective held by an opponent's troop squad, wipe them out pretty easily, and you'll take a lot more firepower than your opponent might think to remove.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 15:32:25


Post by: vipoid


the_scotsman wrote:
So, here's a question:

Obviously, the murder archon, we know him we love him. But a small detail I did overlook upon watching some batreps is, in 9th ed, you do actually get to choose which save you want to roll any time you have to take a save. So if you have an archon with a shadowfield and some AP- attack comes your way, you can choose to take the armor save instead of the invuln to try and preserve the field.

Does this change the ball game any for our many many defensive archon relics?


No.

Because if you spend your relic protecting the Archon you end up with an Archon who isn't worth protecting in the first place.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 15:40:48


Post by: Xenomancers


Murder Chon excels at killing meq. Which isn't exactly an important thing. Str 4 is really weak. I think the ability to wound monsters on 2's with a -1 AP is much more attractive (lotta monsters are out of hand in this game) in general though I am pretty dissatisfied with the archon in any form. I think keeping him alive and buffing incubi and warriors blown out of their vehicles is going to be more useful than using him as a beat stick.




Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 16:12:49


Post by: vipoid


 Xenomancers wrote:
Murder Chon excels at killing meq. Which isn't exactly an important thing. Str 4 is really weak. I think the ability to wound monsters on 2's with a -1 AP is much more attractive (lotta monsters are out of hand in this game)


Bear in mind, though, that the murder-Archon has +2A, +2AP, +1D and, even though he's only S4, he rerolls all failed wounds.

I think you'll find he does considerably better than a D2 Venom Blade Archon even against monsters. Bear in mind that monsters also tend to have good armour saves, so whatever you gain from being Poison 2+, you're most likely going to lose from the weak AP (and that's before you even get into the extra damage and attacks from the Djin Blade).


 Xenomancers wrote:
in general though I am pretty dissatisfied with the archon in any form.


Oh I absolutely agree with you on that.

I find it depressing that a melee HQ needs specific artefacts and/or warlord traits in order to not be utterly abysmal in melee.


Oh but at least it's only one bad HQ out of DE's vast selection of HQ options.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 16:26:37


Post by: the_scotsman


Yeah, the murder archon build does about double the damage of the venom blade archon vs monsters - approximately 12 unsaved wounds vs approximately 6.

"Not Abysmal" is a funny way to say "can easily kill monsters that cost more points than him without even using his second swing" though.

I'll probably try out both setups in my RSR spookylist. The venom blade setup does also give me another poison weapon to proc the PT -1 to attrition off of.

its easy to point at the murdarchon and go 'most damage, is best!' and sure - if you can get him into a target that is much higher value than he is, he can return way more than his value in points. but that's not the only way for a model to make itself useful.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 16:26:42


Post by: Amishprn86


I would only do that if I'm not taking Succubi and or Drazhar. Otherwise its IMO wasted on the Archon.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 16:51:44


Post by: the_scotsman


 Amishprn86 wrote:
I would only do that if I'm not taking Succubi and or Drazhar. Otherwise its IMO wasted on the Archon.


Do what? Take a relic and warlord trait?


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 17:07:54


Post by: Xenomancers


How does murder con reroll all wounds? What warlord trait are you giving him? or Does that come from master archon?


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 17:19:00


Post by: Denegaar


Hatred Eternal lets you reroll al hits and wounds.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 17:40:03


Post by: the_scotsman


 Xenomancers wrote:
How does murder con reroll all wounds? What warlord trait are you giving him? or Does that come from master archon?


Eternal Hatred, it's a core warlord trait for archons. "each time the warlord makes an attack, you may reroll the hit roll and wound roll."

It is absurdly powerful when combined with the AP-3 D3 djinn blade. People have been loving all over the succubus because she's got a bunch of relics and traits you can take and they're all pretty good, but almost every succubus build I've examined struggles to compete with the murder archon for the variety of targets he can take on even BEFORE he takes his once per game second swing. Obviously lelith and the cult of strife razorflail billion attacks succubus shred GEQ better than him, but nobody plays GEQ it's a heavy infantry edition and at a certain point you're just going 'look, I can spend the same amount of points as a squad of wyches and deal comparable damage to a squad of wyches, but it's just one model, wowee!'

Main reason for it is that +2 attacks and the fact that rerolling 5s to wound is a 55% chance to wound.

Precision blows+triptch whip succubus is better vs W2 MEQ (kills 5.65 on average vs 4.25) but worse vs gravis, terminators, and obviously vehicles by a huge margin, which is actually something worth examining because the murder archon pretty easily kills a medium vehicle with just his blast pistol shot and one swing.

Cursed Blade Stronkubus with strength drugs, dancers edge and quicksilver fighter is closer to the murder archon's numbers but still way worse vs W3 infantry (damage 2) and significantly worse vs tanks (8.6 vs 12.3 average damage vs T7 3+)

to compare the two D3 relic builds, blood glaive succubus with precision blows for the mortals and attack drugs deals 11.33 damage to gravis vs 12.35 for the murder archon.

the murder archon is almost always better against most targets than any succubus build, and again, to reiterate, NONE OF THOSE NUMBERS FACTOR IN THE FACT THAT ONCE PER GAME HE CAN JUST DECIDE TO DOUBLE IT if you paid the measly 15pts to make him a master archon. People are just whining about him and loving on the succubus because you have lots of slightly varied options on the succubus vs just one really really good choice and a bunch of mediocre seeming choices on the archon.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 17:58:31


Post by: Denegaar


What about t’he Ancient Evil Writ Archon? I want to use him for my RSR Crusade accompanied by some Incubi.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 18:20:23


Post by: the_scotsman


 Denegaar wrote:
What about t’he Ancient Evil Writ Archon? I want to use him for my RSR Crusade accompanied by some Incubi.


I'm confused why you would go for ancient evil instead of hatred if you've got a squad of incubi with him. that just guarantees that their 'must fight last' ability goes off, and against most targets if you don't get the Tormentors rule, you just select the squad of incubi to fight first and generally whatever you charged becomes not a threat anymore real fast.

swapping the djin blade for a regular huskblade and keeping hatred keeps a good amount of damage on the archon, luckily. For example, lets say you wanted to fight a marine captain, a hatred archon that gets his pistol shot off will deal 4.32 damage without popping splintered genius. without hatred, you're not killing a marine captain with average rolls even with the once per game double attack. A venom blade/blast pistol master archon without hatred comes close with the double attack - 4.66 damage with average rolls - but if you have a huskblade and hatred you're dealing almost that much on the first round of attacks.

Basically, all the traits that just add damage are almost automatically worse than hatred, I was just looking at Consummate Weaponmaster because it's a way to make a 'character duelling' archon build with a different relic than the djin blade. So then the only alternatives are ancient evil, which has utility but I think I'd rather have it on my haemonculus and incubi units even though it requires a role, and labyrinthine cunning, which I would consider a good pick if you're going for a backfield buff-em-up writ archon in an RSR list where you've got scourges/taloi/etc to buff the rolls on.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 18:26:32


Post by: vipoid


the_scotsman wrote:

"Not Abysmal" is a funny way to say "can easily kill monsters that cost more points than him without even using his second swing" though.


I wasn't saying that his damage is bad/mediocre when upgraded. With Djin Blade and Hatred Eternal it's pretty damn good.

My issue is that his damage is so bad to begin with. It's not like he's a psychic character whose main focus is casting powerful spells. He doesn't even have any shooting worth a damn.

My point is that this reliance on one specific artefact and one specific warlord trait in order to have actual decent melee output severely limits his worthwhile builds.

Whereas if he had an equivalent of the Blessed Blade (or Relic Blade or any weapon with actual worthwhile stats), you'd still have the option of the murder-Archon but you'd also have the option of taking any of the more defensive, ranged, or just esoteric artefacts/traits, without leaving him completely pillow-fisted as a result.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 18:29:38


Post by: the_scotsman


.....huh. That's weird.

I just realized that the succubus aura is reroll wounds of 1 in melee. Has it always been that? I thought it was rr1s to hit before.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 18:35:28


Post by: Sterling191


the_scotsman wrote:
.....huh. That's weird.

I just realized that the succubus aura is reroll wounds of 1 in melee. Has it always been that? I thought it was rr1s to hit before.


It was hits for Cult models previously.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 18:39:15


Post by: harlokin


the_scotsman wrote:
.....huh. That's weird.

I just realized that the succubus aura is reroll wounds of 1 in melee. Has it always been that? I thought it was rr1s to hit before.


No, that's new. Remember one of the early leaks that Succubi are just like Lieutenants


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 18:42:47


Post by: Denegaar


Better for Wyches I guess. They hit easier than wound.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 18:46:06


Post by: Xenomancers


the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
How does murder con reroll all wounds? What warlord trait are you giving him? or Does that come from master archon?


Eternal Hatred, it's a core warlord trait for archons. "each time the warlord makes an attack, you may reroll the hit roll and wound roll."

It is absurdly powerful when combined with the AP-3 D3 djinn blade. People have been loving all over the succubus because she's got a bunch of relics and traits you can take and they're all pretty good, but almost every succubus build I've examined struggles to compete with the murder archon for the variety of targets he can take on even BEFORE he takes his once per game second swing. Obviously lelith and the cult of strife razorflail billion attacks succubus shred GEQ better than him, but nobody plays GEQ it's a heavy infantry edition and at a certain point you're just going 'look, I can spend the same amount of points as a squad of wyches and deal comparable damage to a squad of wyches, but it's just one model, wowee!'

Main reason for it is that +2 attacks and the fact that rerolling 5s to wound is a 55% chance to wound.

Precision blows+triptch whip succubus is better vs W2 MEQ (kills 5.65 on average vs 4.25) but worse vs gravis, terminators, and obviously vehicles by a huge margin, which is actually something worth examining because the murder archon pretty easily kills a medium vehicle with just his blast pistol shot and one swing.

Cursed Blade Stronkubus with strength drugs, dancers edge and quicksilver fighter is closer to the murder archon's numbers but still way worse vs W3 infantry (damage 2) and significantly worse vs tanks (8.6 vs 12.3 average damage vs T7 3+)

to compare the two D3 relic builds, blood glaive succubus with precision blows for the mortals and attack drugs deals 11.33 damage to gravis vs 12.35 for the murder archon.

the murder archon is almost always better against most targets than any succubus build, and again, to reiterate, NONE OF THOSE NUMBERS FACTOR IN THE FACT THAT ONCE PER GAME HE CAN JUST DECIDE TO DOUBLE IT if you paid the measly 15pts to make him a master archon. People are just whining about him and loving on the succubus because you have lots of slightly varied options on the succubus vs just one really really good choice and a bunch of mediocre seeming choices on the archon.

That is Drazars warlord trait too right? So you can't have it on both.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 18:46:17


Post by: Sterling191


 Denegaar wrote:
Better for Wyches I guess. They hit easier than wound.


It's another incentive for the RSR. Archon can hand them hit rerolls while the succubus tools up the wound rolls.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 18:46:27


Post by: JNAProductions


 Denegaar wrote:
Better for Wyches I guess. They hit easier than wound.
It’s a 7/6 improvement no matter what the target number is.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 18:47:30


Post by: Amishprn86


the_scotsman wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
I would only do that if I'm not taking Succubi and or Drazhar. Otherwise its IMO wasted on the Archon.


Do what? Take a relic and warlord trait?


WL trait, I have Sucs and Draz for Melee, Archon will be for other reasons unless I don't play Drazhar and 2 Sucs.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 18:58:58


Post by: the_scotsman


Comparing some basic wargear builds:

Archon with blast pistol and huskblade: 75pts. 3.22 damage vs W2 MEQ (capping the blast pistol damage out at 2, obviously)

SoB canoness with blessed blade and Inferno pistol: 65pts. 5.08 damage vs W2 MEQ

Succubus with Shardnet+impaler and strength drugs: 60pts. 3.84 damage vs w2 meq

Harlequin troupe master with embrace and fusion: 76pts. 4.22 damage vs W2 MEQ

Necron Lord with a Warscythe: 75pts. 2.66 damage vs W2 MEQ (oof, that's a D2 weapon too)

Admech Techpriest Dominus: 80pts, 2.66 damage vs W2 MEQ

Craftworld Autarch with Star Glaive: 80pts, 3.06 damage vs W2 MEQ

Genestealer Cults Primus: 85pts, 2.1 damage vs W2 MEQ LOL everything from this faction just randomly sucks so bad for no reason

Ork Warboss with power Klaw and Squig: 80pts, 4.11 damage vs W2 MEQ (note: has next to no defenses compared to most of the others rocking a 4++)

Space Marine captains, custode captains, chaos lords etc can be given better wargear, but they start at a higher point cost than you can even make the archon, and those extra points are obviously all going into offense, because defensively, there's not really much difference at all between the various average characters. They're mostly hanging at about 5W, T3 or T4, and they've got 4++ saves mostly. The archon's "2++ until it becomes a 4+6++" actually gives him better defenses against most weaponry than your average character.

Would it be nice if the Archon had an option like the blessed blade the canoness has, so that he can join her as solidly better than basically every other HQ that hangs out at their price point? Yeah, obviously my thing being tied for absolute best at offense for the points and also better at defense and faster would be good, but I don't think it'd be particularly *fair.*


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 18:59:26


Post by: Tyel


Murderarchon is just solid. Him and Drazhar give you two quasi-smash captains that you can just throw out without worrying overmuch about the consequences to the rest of your list.

I'd almost always want CP generation on a second archon if I was to take one. I don't think the Obsidian Blademaster is dreadful - but equally I'm not really convinced its worth bothering with. He's just sort of "there".

40k is partly so lethal because everyone takes the "do more damage" options - but this is due to GW consistently overvaluing toughness compared to offense. (I can understand why from a gameplay perspective - no one likes doing no damage in their turn - but still.)

In my experience Archons are untargetable for large portions of the game - and then if they die its not because a handful of trash units have broken their 2++, its because they've been hit in the face with loads of (usually high AP/damage) attacks. Which a 3+/minus 1 to hit/5+++ would do little to mitigate.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 18:59:58


Post by: vipoid


the_scotsman wrote:
.....huh. That's weird.

I just realized that the succubus aura is reroll wounds of 1 in melee. Has it always been that? I thought it was rr1s to hit before.


Yeah, it used let you hits in melee for Cult units.

Honestly, given how few models it affects to begin with, I feel they could easily have let it reroll 1s to wound for shooting as well (fire those Splinter Pistols, ladies!).

Anyway, I'm assuming they changed it to wounds because the Archon in a RSR detachment can affect Cult units, so this at least means their auras stack in those circumstances.

Otherwise, it doesn't really change anything.


the_scotsman wrote:

Would it be nice if the Archon had an option like the blessed blade the canoness has, so that he can join her as solidly better than basically every other HQ that hangs out at their price point? Yeah, obviously my thing being tied for absolute best at offense for the points and also better at defense and faster would be good, but I don't think it'd be particularly *fair.*


I mean, you say that but the Canoness is basically the same cost as the Archon (5pts cheaper in fact), yet it's fine for her to have markedly better melee output.

I really don't think it would break the game if the Archon had a Blessed Blade equivalent that cost an extra 10 or so points say.


But if you think that's overpowered, I'm happy to settle for just having the old +1S Huskblade back. It's markedly worse than the Blessed Blade but at least it would be *something*.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 19:00:44


Post by: the_scotsman


 Xenomancers wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
How does murder con reroll all wounds? What warlord trait are you giving him? or Does that come from master archon?


Eternal Hatred, it's a core warlord trait for archons. "each time the warlord makes an attack, you may reroll the hit roll and wound roll."

It is absurdly powerful when combined with the AP-3 D3 djinn blade. People have been loving all over the succubus because she's got a bunch of relics and traits you can take and they're all pretty good, but almost every succubus build I've examined struggles to compete with the murder archon for the variety of targets he can take on even BEFORE he takes his once per game second swing. Obviously lelith and the cult of strife razorflail billion attacks succubus shred GEQ better than him, but nobody plays GEQ it's a heavy infantry edition and at a certain point you're just going 'look, I can spend the same amount of points as a squad of wyches and deal comparable damage to a squad of wyches, but it's just one model, wowee!'

Main reason for it is that +2 attacks and the fact that rerolling 5s to wound is a 55% chance to wound.

Precision blows+triptch whip succubus is better vs W2 MEQ (kills 5.65 on average vs 4.25) but worse vs gravis, terminators, and obviously vehicles by a huge margin, which is actually something worth examining because the murder archon pretty easily kills a medium vehicle with just his blast pistol shot and one swing.

Cursed Blade Stronkubus with strength drugs, dancers edge and quicksilver fighter is closer to the murder archon's numbers but still way worse vs W3 infantry (damage 2) and significantly worse vs tanks (8.6 vs 12.3 average damage vs T7 3+)

to compare the two D3 relic builds, blood glaive succubus with precision blows for the mortals and attack drugs deals 11.33 damage to gravis vs 12.35 for the murder archon.

the murder archon is almost always better against most targets than any succubus build, and again, to reiterate, NONE OF THOSE NUMBERS FACTOR IN THE FACT THAT ONCE PER GAME HE CAN JUST DECIDE TO DOUBLE IT if you paid the measly 15pts to make him a master archon. People are just whining about him and loving on the succubus because you have lots of slightly varied options on the succubus vs just one really really good choice and a bunch of mediocre seeming choices on the archon.

That is Drazars warlord trait too right? So you can't have it on both.


Yeah, true, but it gives drazar rerolling 2+s to hit and wound vs most things, wheras it gives the archon rerolling 5s to wound vs most things. i'd rather have 2 characters that can both kill god than 1 who's mediocre and the other who I can never find a good enough target for him to fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:


40k is partly so lethal because everyone takes the "do more damage" options - but this is due to GW consistently overvaluing toughness compared to offense. (I can understand why from a gameplay perspective - no one likes doing no damage in their turn - but still.)


Yeah, it does always seem like the amount of extra damage you can get from relics+traits is so, so, so much more than the amount of defenses you can get. casually sextuple your damage with relic+trait+master archon or, oh look, +1 to your basic save and -1 to hit in melee!


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 19:10:56


Post by: Xenomancers


Draz is fighting twice every turn though and has more staying power. I think I'd rather have it on Draz still. I can't imagine not having draz.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 19:11:10


Post by: the_scotsman


 vipoid wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
.....huh. That's weird.

I just realized that the succubus aura is reroll wounds of 1 in melee. Has it always been that? I thought it was rr1s to hit before.


Yeah, it used let you hits in melee for Cult units.

Honestly, given how few models it affects to begin with, I feel they could easily have let it reroll 1s to wound for shooting as well (fire those Splinter Pistols, ladies!).

Anyway, I'm assuming they changed it to wounds because the Archon in a RSR detachment can affect Cult units, so this at least means their auras stack in those circumstances.

Otherwise, it doesn't really change anything.


the_scotsman wrote:

Would it be nice if the Archon had an option like the blessed blade the canoness has, so that he can join her as solidly better than basically every other HQ that hangs out at their price point? Yeah, obviously my thing being tied for absolute best at offense for the points and also better at defense and faster would be good, but I don't think it'd be particularly *fair.*


I mean, you say that but the Canoness is basically the same cost as the Archon (5pts cheaper in fact), yet it's fine for her to have markedly better melee output.

I really don't think it would break the game if the Archon had a Blessed Blade equivalent that cost an extra 10 or so points say.


But if you think that's overpowered, I'm happy to settle for just having the old +1S Huskblade back. It's markedly worse than the Blessed Blade but at least it would be *something*.


No, i'm saying the canoness appears to be way better for her points than basically everything in an equivalent points bracket in the game. The canoness is an outlier - look at the comparison I just did with basically every 60-80pt basic HQ unit in the game. The archon is slightly on the lower end, but has slightly better defenses. The canoness does significantly more damage than everyone else and costs fewer points with the blade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
I would only do that if I'm not taking Succubi and or Drazhar. Otherwise its IMO wasted on the Archon.


Do what? Take a relic and warlord trait?


WL trait, I have Sucs and Draz for Melee, Archon will be for other reasons unless I don't play Drazhar and 2 Sucs.


Murder archon is better than a succubus in basically any build in melee without fighting twice. If youre taking 2 different wych detachments obviously you're stuck with 2 succubi, but it is factually better to trade out a trait+relic succubus out for a murder archon than the other way round.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 19:35:56


Post by: Tyel


The thing is... does anyone run a naked blessed blade canoness?

I guess the answers going to be "my mate does" - but really, competitively, I just don't think its a thing. Will you ever run an Archon without warlord traits and relics? Probably not - but you don't have to. So its not really an issue.

I was on the whole "Sisters are just DE but better" train for a while - but its hard to argue its still the case now.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 19:38:11


Post by: vipoid


Tyel wrote:
Will you ever run an Archon without warlord traits and relics? Probably not - but you don't have to. So its not really an issue.


I give up.

Apparently no one is capable of even engaging in this debate without immediately strawmanning the argument, so what's even the point?


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 20:10:20


Post by: harlokin


"Perhaps the most lethal weapon used by Dark Eldar archons, Husk Blades evaporate the moisture from everything they touch leaving only dust-like figures if used against living beings. Even the toughest foes have been struck down by these blades".

In-game they struggle to wound without the correct Warlord Trait


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 20:20:22


Post by: the_scotsman


 vipoid wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Will you ever run an Archon without warlord traits and relics? Probably not - but you don't have to. So its not really an issue.


I give up.

Apparently no one is capable of even engaging in this debate without immediately strawmanning the argument, so what's even the point?


Man im doing my best here. We're starting from the fantasy world where characters arent just basically defined by their warlord traits and relics already, but you keep talking about how hes miserable and pillow fisted and nothing worth a damn when hes just....middle of the road for his point value. If anything the character you keep comparing him to would appear to be an outlier for her points value.

Would it be overpiwered if there were more ways to buy offense on the archon than traits and relics? No. Itd be like space marine captains, people would basically always choose to buy offense using the traits and relics because it's a resource obly a few models in your army can use and everything can use points, and incidentally its a reaource we as drukhari just happen to get more of than everyine else.



Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 20:24:09


Post by: Amishprn86


the_scotsman wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
.....huh. That's weird.

I just realized that the succubus aura is reroll wounds of 1 in melee. Has it always been that? I thought it was rr1s to hit before.


Yeah, it used let you hits in melee for Cult units.

Honestly, given how few models it affects to begin with, I feel they could easily have let it reroll 1s to wound for shooting as well (fire those Splinter Pistols, ladies!).

Anyway, I'm assuming they changed it to wounds because the Archon in a RSR detachment can affect Cult units, so this at least means their auras stack in those circumstances.

Otherwise, it doesn't really change anything.


the_scotsman wrote:

Would it be nice if the Archon had an option like the blessed blade the canoness has, so that he can join her as solidly better than basically every other HQ that hangs out at their price point? Yeah, obviously my thing being tied for absolute best at offense for the points and also better at defense and faster would be good, but I don't think it'd be particularly *fair.*


I mean, you say that but the Canoness is basically the same cost as the Archon (5pts cheaper in fact), yet it's fine for her to have markedly better melee output.

I really don't think it would break the game if the Archon had a Blessed Blade equivalent that cost an extra 10 or so points say.


But if you think that's overpowered, I'm happy to settle for just having the old +1S Huskblade back. It's markedly worse than the Blessed Blade but at least it would be *something*.


No, i'm saying the canoness appears to be way better for her points than basically everything in an equivalent points bracket in the game. The canoness is an outlier - look at the comparison I just did with basically every 60-80pt basic HQ unit in the game. The archon is slightly on the lower end, but has slightly better defenses. The canoness does significantly more damage than everyone else and costs fewer points with the blade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
I would only do that if I'm not taking Succubi and or Drazhar. Otherwise its IMO wasted on the Archon.


Do what? Take a relic and warlord trait?


WL trait, I have Sucs and Draz for Melee, Archon will be for other reasons unless I don't play Drazhar and 2 Sucs.


Murder archon is better than a succubus in basically any build in melee without fighting twice. If youre taking 2 different wych detachments obviously you're stuck with 2 succubi, but it is factually better to trade out a trait+relic succubus out for a murder archon than the other way round.


Then you did not do that math, the Succubus is WAY better and i mean WAY better.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 22:06:35


Post by: StrayIight


 Amishprn86 wrote:

Then you did not do that math, the Succubus is WAY better and i mean WAY better.


Scroll up. He absolutely did do the math, and presented it in the thread. Now I haven't checked it, but you're not presenting any of your own to refute his argument.

If you're able to, it'd be a welcome addition to the discussion and far more useful to everyone than a generic claim without data that contradicts what Scotsman has shown.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 22:52:30


Post by: Amishprn86


 StrayIight wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:

Then you did not do that math, the Succubus is WAY better and i mean WAY better.


Scroll up. He absolutely did do the math, and presented it in the thread. Now I haven't checked it, but you're not presenting any of your own to refute his argument.

If you're able to, it'd be a welcome addition to the discussion and far more useful to everyone than a generic claim without data that contradicts what Scotsman has shown.


And I did as well as many others, Competitive Edge, Dark Lotus, Razorflails is beyond that of the Archon.

Also Triptych whip, quicksilver, with +Atk drug is better as well.

Both able to kill full units of Primaris without trying, heck the Competitive Edge will be nerf bc RAI it shouldn't work like that, it is able to kill Primarchs and I have seen it kill Primarchs already.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 22:57:49


Post by: vipoid


the_scotsman wrote:

Man im doing my best here. We're starting from the fantasy world where characters arent just basically defined by their warlord traits and relics already, but you keep talking about how hes miserable and pillow fisted and nothing worth a damn when hes just....middle of the road for his point value. If anything the character you keep comparing him to would appear to be an outlier for her points value.


Cool, tell you what, let's remove Psychic Powers from Farseers. Maybe we'll give them a lesser version of Smite that does 1 wound at 6".

But it's okay because if they take this new Artefact called 'Psychic Helmet' then they can know another psychic power and have a proper version of smite. And if they take the 'Psychic Mastery' warlord trait, then they can know and cast a second power.

And if anyone complains that you have to take a specific artefact and a specific warlord trait to make a Farseer actually act remotely like a Farseer, then we can just shrug them off with 'Well who takes HQs without artefacts or warlord traits, duh?'

Truly we have reached a bright new age of HQ design.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/01 23:38:17


Post by: Tyel


The problem is, and I realise this is the personality clash - if you could build 2, maybe even 3 vaguely viable Farseers (and idk, there were also multiple Autarch builds, and even Spirit Seers/Warloccks [I'm reaching, I don't really know CWE]) then yes. Why would I care if the basic Farseer I'm never going to run was a bit rubbish?

You can call this a strawman - but I don't think anyone runs naked characters. Your cliche SM Captain with jump pack and thunder hammer is quite expensive, and not incredibly powerful if he doesn't have a reasonable run of "things" to make him better.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 01:21:17


Post by: the_scotsman


 Amishprn86 wrote:
 StrayIight wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:

Then you did not do that math, the Succubus is WAY better and i mean WAY better.


Scroll up. He absolutely did do the math, and presented it in the thread. Now I haven't checked it, but you're not presenting any of your own to refute his argument.

If you're able to, it'd be a welcome addition to the discussion and far more useful to everyone than a generic claim without data that contradicts what Scotsman has shown.


And I did as well as many others, Competitive Edge, Dark Lotus, Razorflails is beyond that of the Archon.

Also Triptych whip, quicksilver, with +Atk drug is better as well.

Both able to kill full units of Primaris without trying, heck the Competitive Edge will be nerf bc RAI it shouldn't work like that, it is able to kill Primarchs and I have seen it kill Primarchs already.


I have not read the exact rules text of competitive edge, but from what I understand it's a round of bonus attacks for each attack you make that fails to cause an unsaved wound. A dark lotus razorflail succubus would be +1S -1AP D2 A7, each attack making 2 attack rolls, which would then double again RAW with each bonus attack from Competitive Edge.

vs GEQ: 13.4 dead
vs Primaris: 7.5 dead
vs Gravis: 2.8 dead
vs Vehicles: 10.5 wounds

Murder Archon with one round of melee attacks:

Vs GEQ: 6.9 dead (nice)
vs Primaris: 5.19 dead
vs Gravis: 4.0 dead
vs Vehicles: 12.33 wounds

With one round of melee attacks, the competitive edge succubus (who is better vs every category except vehicles than the triptch whip succubus you listed out, so I won't math her out fully) is better against GEQ, slightly better against primaris, and worse vs gravis (or any other quality W3 infantry/DG infantry) and vs vehicles. If he decides to attack twice, he blows her away against every target except GEQ. And, though it's difficult to math out the defenses of an archon because of the failed save, almost any combination of attack profiles is going to have a tougher time killing an archon than a succubus - against AP-, he can take a 4+ save the same as a succubus, and against higher damage attacks he can rely on the 2++ to save the first 3-4 wounds before compound probability gets to him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vipoid wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

Man im doing my best here. We're starting from the fantasy world where characters arent just basically defined by their warlord traits and relics already, but you keep talking about how hes miserable and pillow fisted and nothing worth a damn when hes just....middle of the road for his point value. If anything the character you keep comparing him to would appear to be an outlier for her points value.


Cool, tell you what, let's remove Psychic Powers from Farseers. Maybe we'll give them a lesser version of Smite that does 1 wound at 6".

But it's okay because if they take this new Artefact called 'Psychic Helmet' then they can know another psychic power and have a proper version of smite. And if they take the 'Psychic Mastery' warlord trait, then they can know and cast a second power.

And if anyone complains that you have to take a specific artefact and a specific warlord trait to make a Farseer actually act remotely like a Farseer, then we can just shrug them off with 'Well who takes HQs without artefacts or warlord traits, duh?'

Truly we have reached a bright new age of HQ design.


Except that that isn't the situation, as I've painstakingly pointed out. Your only real fallback is your feeling that Archons *should* be stronger characters - that they should be better at fighting in melee by default than a craftworld autarch, or a canoness, or a necron overlord, or a tyranid prime, based on lore descriptions. For his current point cost, he simply is not factually bad at being a melee oriented character, he's right in the middle of the pack, and most of what's ahead of him - harlequin troupe masters, sisters canonesses - are from armies that are generally considered to be too strong on the competitive curve - or in the troupe master, completely hinging on the fact that his aura currently works on himself, which has a 0% chance of getting thru to the next codex he's in.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 02:23:09


Post by: Galas


Canoness(es?) are extremely cheap for how good they are to be honest, and the blessed blade is a weapon that in other armies would be a relic.

Theres not really that much generic characters (Specially the commanding ones, not talking about full combat ones like champions, etc...) that are really that good offensively. Even a Ork Warboss that should be extremely scary in meele , without relics and warlords traits is extremely underwelming.

And I have never seen a ork player complaint as much as dark eldar about their warbosses. They just take the killa klaw, Brutal but kunnin (Or the other, I don't remember) and delete whatever their uber warboss charges.

I mean, even a space marine captain, when fielded in multiples before, it would normally be max two captains: A extremely cheap one with chainsword and bolter to support and the one with all the relics and warlord traits to kill stuff.


Of course it would be phenomenal for all characters to be extremely good with basic wargear and then become beasts with combos of relics and warlords traits! But now DE are basically... like everyone else. Actually quite bit better because the amount of murder-succubuss they can make is superior to most other armies that normally have just 1 combo for 1 type of character to make them viable meele combatants (with the exception of marines of course with their 20 warlord traits and 343052350 relics)


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 02:41:45


Post by: flamingkillamajig


Galas back in the day a friend played a game with an archon vs a bio titan and had it not been for lash whips or something the archon likely would've won. 5th edition had crazy archons. Even in 7th I had 4 archons in a group together which at times seemed nigh indestructible. I managed to tank entire gunlines with them and then in one game managed to kill a stormsurge with them. I barely did it but I managed it.

Let that sink in if archons have gone from possibly killing a bio titan or stormsurge all the way to being a ravager buff aura hero and little else. I'll admit I haven't read much of our newest codex but the power difference is staggering from where they were compared to where they are now.

--------

On another subject I actually disagree with whoever said enhanced sensory organs for covens is bad because I did a little remembering. So sisters of battle have this ability which negates low ap weapons. I was planning to use splinter cannon venoms in place of dissies on many units. Sisters in cover would be absolute murder against this loadout I'm planning without a way around light and heavy cover. Same goes for custodes in cover. -1s to hit or a 2+ armor? Yeah no thanks.

Sure I'd wound on 4+ but all I really need is damage 2 on splinter cannons and negatives to hit would also be bad. I could still use poisoned tongue for anti geq poison spam with warriors in raiders but I'm not gonna give an option for enemies in cover with 3+ armor with an ability to negate low ap weapons. I think admech have that option too btw.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 11:13:52


Post by: Blackie


 Xenomancers wrote:
Draz is fighting twice every turn though and has more staying power. I think I'd rather have it on Draz still. I can't imagine not having draz.


He's also much more expensive, can't fit a realspace unless paying 2 CPs and with his 4++ he can't really tank that much even with -1damage: it just needs two hits that go through saves from a typically kitted 83 points warboss to die. Which means he's not really good in tanking and if he can't fight first he might not have a chance to do anything, regardless of his fight twice free ability. If he joins Incubi their transport is getting all the attention in the world as it's 300-390 points of T3 melee only models on a not so armored vehicle. If his transport is wrecked picking him up with firepower is not the hardest thing to do. The Archon at least has his nasty 2++ to take down, so he can actually tank something and get the chance to fight twice as well.

I also think that having two (or even 3) skilled fighters is better than having a tax HQ and a slightly upgraded fighter. Drazhar doesn't really gain that much from the trait.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 11:42:09


Post by: the_scotsman


 flamingkillamajig wrote:

On another subject I actually disagree with whoever said enhanced sensory organs for covens is bad because I did a little remembering. So sisters of battle have this ability which negates low ap weapons. I was planning to use splinter cannon venoms in place of dissies on many units. Sisters in cover would be absolute murder against this loadout I'm planning without a way around light and heavy cover. Same goes for custodes in cover. -1s to hit or a 2+ armor? Yeah no thanks.

Sure I'd wound on 4+ but all I really need is damage 2 on splinter cannons and negatives to hit would also be bad. I could still use poisoned tongue for anti geq poison spam with warriors in raiders but I'm not gonna give an option for enemies in cover with 3+ armor with an ability to negate low ap weapons. I think admech have that option too btw.


Sure, I mostly rated it as not good because a situation like that is fairly niche, and it mostly just benefits splinter cannons which covens don't tend to field a whole lot of generally. The more AP you have the less likely you are to care for cover...though I guess now that heavy cover actually works it could be useful as a generic benefit for your melee guys.

IDK. Mostly I'm comparing it and whatever second one you'd combine it with to coven of 12, which always gets the extra AP on melee weapons (seeing as ignore cover is basically equivalent to a conditional extra -1AP) but I guess it's not on the same level as like, the 'torturers craft is cheaper' or 'do a single MW on a charge on a 4+' ones. it's just kinda a generic benefit slightly tilted towards if for some reason you have tons of venoms that you're classing as part of your coven instead of taking as Poisoned Tongue units.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 12:03:29


Post by: Amishprn86


I honestly don't like RSR at all, i'm still running 3 patrols. the +2CP is really nice and my melee is Incubi or Wyches so I don't need Raidmaster aura. The Succubi are there for the Wyches if i needed but normally I don't. Also Drazhar hits like a freaking truck, it is well worth it to have Hatred Eternal if you are worried about high Tough and high Wounds.

The big thing is Having Drazhar and a good Succubus means they can go out on their own. I think people are under estimating the power of our units now. Unless its a 20man Neecron warrior unit, a 10man Inner Circle, or a 8 Man Custodes Terminator unit, we don't need multi layers of hero support to deal with things, and then you can still have hero support if you need.

With Transports and vehicles not being Core, i have even less of a reason to take an Archon, PS Archons fight twice is worst than Drazhars, b.c he can only do it once and has no way himself to make units fight last.

Honestly with Hellions, Reavers, for what you can make them do combine with Incubi and Drazhar, almost all my bases are covered. I mean Drazhar took out a 5man Skyweaver unit himself, lets see a Archon do that lol.

PS: Fly-by is INSANE now, most likely going to be one of my most used stratagems now. You can kill characters just with it.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 12:28:21


Post by: the_scotsman


 Blackie wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Draz is fighting twice every turn though and has more staying power. I think I'd rather have it on Draz still. I can't imagine not having draz.


He's also much more expensive, can't fit a realspace unless paying 2 CPs and with his 4++ he can't really tank that much even with -1damage: it just needs two hits that go through saves from a typically kitted 83 points warboss to die. Which means he's not really good in tanking and if he can't fight first he might not have a chance to do anything, regardless of his fight twice free ability. If he joins Incubi their transport is getting all the attention in the world as it's 300-390 points of T3 melee only models on a not so armored vehicle. If his transport is wrecked picking him up with firepower is not the hardest thing to do. The Archon at least has his nasty 2++ to take down, so he can actually tank something and get the chance to fight twice as well.

I also think that having two (or even 3) skilled fighters is better than having a tax HQ and a slightly upgraded fighter. Drazhar doesn't really gain that much from the trait.


He's tougher and does more damage than an archon - 2+ armor, 4++, -1 damage, and an extra wound mean while he's not impossible to kill, he's not the glass cannon that a unit of incubi is by any stretch of the imagination.

The thing is though, running an archon along with him actually gives him 1/2 of the hatred eternal trait - because he has the INCUBI keyword so the archon gives him rr1s to hit, and rr1s to hit is the same as rr all to hit for drazar.

I definitely think if you're running drazar alongside incubi it's 100% worth a second transport for the squad of incubi, putting them together makes for a massive target. The only problem is that un-rerollable 1 to lose drazar if his transport gets focused out. But having a squad of incubi with +1 to wound is super heckin nice...


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 14:04:07


Post by: Xenomancers


 Amishprn86 wrote:
I honestly don't like RSR at all, i'm still running 3 patrols. the +2CP is really nice and my melee is Incubi or Wyches so I don't need Raidmaster aura. The Succubi are there for the Wyches if i needed but normally I don't. Also Drazhar hits like a freaking truck, it is well worth it to have Hatred Eternal if you are worried about high Tough and high Wounds.

The big thing is Having Drazhar and a good Succubus means they can go out on their own. I think people are under estimating the power of our units now. Unless its a 20man Neecron warrior unit, a 10man Inner Circle, or a 8 Man Custodes Terminator unit, we don't need multi layers of hero support to deal with things, and then you can still have hero support if you need.

With Transports and vehicles not being Core, i have even less of a reason to take an Archon, PS Archons fight twice is worst than Drazhars, b.c he can only do it once and has no way himself to make units fight last.

Honestly with Hellions, Reavers, for what you can make them do combine with Incubi and Drazhar, almost all my bases are covered. I mean Drazhar took out a 5man Skyweaver unit himself, lets see a Archon do that lol.

PS: Fly-by is INSANE now, most likely going to be one of my most used stratagems now. You can kill characters just with it.

Yeah I am with you on this. Not including archon I think is the best way to go. Drazar and double succubus will be my Hq's I believe. Not including RSR gives you more points to spend on our best stuff. Hellions/ Revers / VRB / Incubi / big squads of wyches.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 16:44:05


Post by: whembly


How are DE beast squads now? Are they at least cheap enough for objective duties?


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 17:09:16


Post by: Amishprn86


Points are the same as the FAQ, but 1 unit can now run and charge if you are near the Beastmaster as well as they take up slots (which is good and bad, good with old rules bad now that we want Hellions and Reavers).

They are Blades for Hire, so in RSR/Archon you can give them re-rolls.

Over all they are a meh option,mostly b.c we have so many good options now. They are great for Crusade, and fine for casual or pick up games though.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 17:15:37


Post by: the_scotsman


 whembly wrote:
How are DE beast squads now? Are they at least cheap enough for objective duties?


Yeah, basically. The main problem with them is threefold: 1, the fact you have to include a beasmaster offsets their cheapness somewhat. 2, the beast squads themselves do now eat fast slots though the master is slotless. And 3, having the beast instead of infantry keyword limits their action capabilities and so limits the objectives that they can help with.

A Khymera is basically a slightly different wych (2pts more, +1S, +2move, +1 invuln but no no escape or dodge), a clawed fiend is a cut-rate Grotesque (15ppm less, no FNP no invuln, slightly faster movement, similar offense due to more attacks but shittier weapon skill) and razorwings are weird little fast nurgling dudes that definitely seem like the worst of the bunch.

I think you could make the argument for having a beastmaster and 3 individual clawed fiends as a scoring crew, or a beastmaster and a big ol unit of khymerae or two as a fast anti-infantry unit.

The problem I keep having with them is that stupid stupid fast attack slot for the beasts. I've got min wrack squads for scoring, which are slightly more expensive than clawed fiends but not that much more, and they're infantry so they can do actions, but they dont get in the way of me having enough fast slots to fit all my hellions and reavers and scourges and more hellions all the hellions THEY LAUGHED THEY CALLED ME MAD NOW THEYLL SEE ahem. sorry.

I bought several gangs of comorragh boxes, then bought the hellions out of a couple more when people were like 'uhhhhh this is the worst unit in the game and I got this just for the reavers, you want em for 10 bucks?'


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 18:36:47


Post by: Xenomancers


What are thoughts on what the best khab spam kabal would be?

How would you do it?


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 18:38:49


Post by: the_scotsman


 Xenomancers wrote:
What are thoughts on what the best khab spam kabal would be?

How would you do it?


Obrose, raiders, 1 dark lance per squad, splinter racks.

30" rapid fire range splinter rifles with rerolling to wound dark lances, sounds good to me!


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 19:07:43


Post by: Xenomancers


What about custom traits for exploding 6's on splinters and ap-1 on 6's? or all consuming for 6s to hit wound on a 2+ and reroll 1's to wound.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 19:14:59


Post by: Amishprn86


BH for using lots of blades for hire and Lances, PT if you like Venoms while still using melee to redeploy, custom traits for max poison shots damage (Merciless Razorkin/Torturous Efficiency)


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 19:24:54


Post by: harlokin


I assume that OR Trueborn are better than their BH counterparts; re-rolling hits being less important if you already have a BS 2+


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 21:20:34


Post by: the_scotsman


 Amishprn86 wrote:
BH for using lots of blades for hire and Lances, PT if you like Venoms while still using melee to redeploy, custom traits for max poison shots damage (Merciless Razorkin/Torturous Efficiency)


BH only helps Blades if you're in a RSR detachment. I'm assuming if he wants kab spam kabals he wants all-kabals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 harlokin wrote:
I assume that OR Trueborn are better than their BH counterparts; re-rolling hits being less important if you already have a BS 2+


Well, I actually quite like the BH reroll to hit on a triple darklight squad, because compound probability says that it's around 3 dice that you're more likely to see a one than not (that's when the Archon's shadowfield is more likely to fail than continue to succeed as well) and rerolling a 1 to a 2+ is an extremely good chance to hit, as anyone who knows how good BS2+ rerolling 1s feels compared to, say, bs4+ rerolling 1s.

but god DAMN obrose is safe as hell.

PT all day every day if you're going for venoms tho. Maybe 1 patrol of PT 1 patrol of BH or Obrose.

I'm not certain of the math, but I think all the 'on a 6, thing happens' traits add up to 1/2 of a normal wound shift, and PT is a full wound shift plus the morale thing as a cherry on top. Maybe someone could math out how PT compares to double custom trait poison weapon thingies.

Also, poison 3+ Agonizer Sybarites? Eh? Eh? Anyone? Bueller?


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 21:47:02


Post by: Amishprn86


the_scotsman wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
BH for using lots of blades for hire and Lances, PT if you like Venoms while still using melee to redeploy, custom traits for max poison shots damage (Merciless Razorkin/Torturous Efficiency)


BH only helps Blades if you're in a RSR detachment. I'm assuming if he wants kab spam kabals he wants all-kabals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 harlokin wrote:
I assume that OR Trueborn are better than their BH counterparts; re-rolling hits being less important if you already have a BS 2+


Well, I actually quite like the BH reroll to hit on a triple darklight squad, because compound probability says that it's around 3 dice that you're more likely to see a one than not (that's when the Archon's shadowfield is more likely to fail than continue to succeed as well) and rerolling a 1 to a 2+ is an extremely good chance to hit, as anyone who knows how good BS2+ rerolling 1s feels compared to, say, bs4+ rerolling 1s.

but god DAMN obrose is safe as hell.

PT all day every day if you're going for venoms tho. Maybe 1 patrol of PT 1 patrol of BH or Obrose.

I'm not certain of the math, but I think all the 'on a 6, thing happens' traits add up to 1/2 of a normal wound shift, and PT is a full wound shift plus the morale thing as a cherry on top. Maybe someone could math out how PT compares to double custom trait poison weapon thingies.

Also, poison 3+ Agonizer Sybarites? Eh? Eh? Anyone? Bueller?


While true, it also helps Incubi no matter what.

PS, ObRose is really good too for more focus on Kabals.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 22:11:02


Post by: Sterling191


the_scotsman wrote:

I'm not certain of the math, but I think all the 'on a 6, thing happens' traits add up to 1/2 of a normal wound shift, and PT is a full wound shift plus the morale thing as a cherry on top. Maybe someone could math out how PT compares to double custom trait poison weapon thingies.


Goonhammer did their version of this analysis already. PT and Exploding Sixes are roughly a wash for Splinter Rifles, but on Splinter Cannons the latter seems to be winning out against multiwound targets. I would have preferred to see more target profiles mathed out, but it is what it is:

https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-spotlight-the-new-drukhari-codex/



Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 22:29:15


Post by: Therion


I bet you guys have missed one boon for detachment construction:

You don’t actually have to have a let’s say Dark Technomancers Coven patrol detachment filled with only Coven units. You can put an Archon there, Wyches, anything you want, but the only units gaining an obsession there are the Coven units. Reading the rules, how it works is you ’designate’ a detachment coven, kabal or cult, but the only restriction is that you can’t have like two different wych cults in the same detachment, for example.

There are units that you don’t need an obsession for. But slots are in short supply in the 3 Patrol (14 cp) setup. Transports that are coven or kabal can likewise transport wyches or anything else, so there’s a lot of room for customization.

Just a heads up. Sean Nayden noticed this change first and pointed it out elsewhere.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/02 22:58:37


Post by: Amishprn86


Yeah we did notice that already, nothing really stands out for a good reason to do that yet. Maybe with some math a double Coven and Wych detachment throw in a Archon with a Relic or WL trait might be really good or something.

I personally haven't looked for those combos ye b.c I am waiting for the faq, some already asked GW about it.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/03 06:55:16


Post by: Therion


Plenty reason to do that. For example, why would a Black Heart Patrol take the ’obligatory’ 5 naked Kabalites, when it can take 5 Wracks, and the Black Heart units still get their obsession. Similarly, if I just want the Djin Blade / Hatred Eternal Archon, I can slam him in a detachment where Coven still get their traits. Him missing out on a Kabal obsession is hardly a problem. You even get access to the stratagems like Vect without ever having a Black Heart Detachment. Just that solo Archon who doesn’t even have an obsession will do. He is still Black Heart keyword after all.

A lot of players intuitively assumed that mixing would ’break’ Obsessions for everyone, but that turned out to be incorrect.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/03 12:49:23


Post by: OrdoSean


 Therion wrote:
Plenty reason to do that. For example, why would a Black Heart Patrol take the ’obligatory’ 5 naked Kabalites, when it can take 5 Wracks, and the Black Heart units still get their obsession. Similarly, if I just want the Djin Blade / Hatred Eternal Archon, I can slam him in a detachment where Coven still get their traits. Him missing out on a Kabal obsession is hardly a problem. You even get access to the stratagems like Vect without ever having a Black Heart Detachment. Just that solo Archon who doesn’t even have an obsession will do. He is still Black Heart keyword after all.

A lot of players intuitively assumed that mixing would ’break’ Obsessions for everyone, but that turned out to be incorrect.


Need a full black heart detachment to get access to vect. Need a full stride detachment to access strife strats and warlord traits etc.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/03 13:30:59


Post by: StrayIight


OrdoSean wrote:
 Therion wrote:
Plenty reason to do that. For example, why would a Black Heart Patrol take the ’obligatory’ 5 naked Kabalites, when it can take 5 Wracks, and the Black Heart units still get their obsession. Similarly, if I just want the Djin Blade / Hatred Eternal Archon, I can slam him in a detachment where Coven still get their traits. Him missing out on a Kabal obsession is hardly a problem. You even get access to the stratagems like Vect without ever having a Black Heart Detachment. Just that solo Archon who doesn’t even have an obsession will do. He is still Black Heart keyword after all.

A lot of players intuitively assumed that mixing would ’break’ Obsessions for everyone, but that turned out to be incorrect.


Need a full black heart detachment to get access to vect. Need a full stride detachment to access strife strats and warlord traits etc.


I have to agree, page 53:

'Each Kabal, Wych Cult or Coven has an associated Stratagem. If your army includes a Kabal, Wych Cult, or Coven Detachment (excluding Auxillary Support Detachments) from one of the Kabals, Wych Cults or Covens named in this section, or a Real Space Raid Detachment that includes units from any of the Kabals, Wych Cults or Covens named in this section, you can spend command points to use this Stratagem.'

This pretty clearly rules out a single model with X Keyword in another type of detachment, allowing access to any strat etc.
The statement: 'You even get access to the stratagems like Vect without ever having a Black Heart Detachment. Just that solo Archon who doesn’t even have an obsession will do. He is still Black Heart keyword after all.' is unfortunately pretty clearly untrue.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/03 13:32:29


Post by: Therion


Edit


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/03 13:33:57


Post by: StrayIight


 Therion wrote:
The supplement says you need a Strife detachment, yes. And where do you imagine it says you need a Black Heart detachment to get access to Black Heart relics, w/l traits, stratagems? This is what I mean. You assume things. Just link your source and a quote the next time you answer.


Look one post up...


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/03 13:35:10


Post by: Therion


Still doesn’t rule out units, warlord traits, or relics. Just the associated stratagems. Which was beside the original point (obsessions).


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/03 13:46:49


Post by: StrayIight


 Therion wrote:
Still doesn’t rule out units, warlord traits, or relics. Just the associated stratagems. Which was beside the original point (obsessions).


Maybe.

It's quite hard to rule on this and it's probably going to need an FAQ. As written, the Codex calls out some of what you describe on page 49, but ONLY for units in a Realspace Raid detachment, and it seems to me to indicate that this is allowed because they are in a RSR detachment.

The implication then is that you can't do so where this is not the case. For relics at least.

I suspect you're right with regard to obsessions. I've no idea how Warlord traits are intended to work in this regard.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/03 16:18:01


Post by: OrdoSean


 Therion wrote:
Still doesn’t rule out units, warlord traits, or relics. Just the associated stratagems. Which was beside the original point (obsessions).


Sure units is fine I agree. After all I’m Sean Nayden.

Just you brought up just bringing an archon to get access to vect and so I wanted to squash that very quickly before by association it seemed like I was saying that was ok. And therefore not besides the point.

Warlord traits and relics seem a little foggier but I would lean towards you can’t take anything specific unless you have the specific detachment type to unlock it. But you could make a raw case for allowing it as it’s not specific.

The rules are very clear that you can’t access to stratagems without the detachment.

Rules also pretty clear that you can put any units you want anywhere and they just don’t gain obsessions.

But as always A gw faq or a TO ruling will override any of these.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/03 16:31:09


Post by: Therion


OrdoSean wrote:
 Therion wrote:
Still doesn’t rule out units, warlord traits, or relics. Just the associated stratagems. Which was beside the original point (obsessions).


Sure units is fine I agree. After all I’m Sean Nayden.

Just you brought up just bringing an archon to get access to vect and so I wanted to squash that very quickly before by association it seemed like I was saying that was ok. And therefore not besides the point.

Warlord traits and relics seem a little foggier but I would lean towards you can’t take anything specific unless you have the specific detachment type to unlock it. But you could make a raw case for allowing it as it’s not specific.

The rules are very clear that you can’t access to stratagems without the detachment.

Rules also pretty clear that you can put any units you want anywhere and they just don’t gain obsessions.

But as always A gw faq or a TO ruling will override any of these.


I don’t think there’s anything ambiguous here, nor did I imply you are a source for rules interpretation. Only that you raised this question elsewhere and noticed a clear change to the past, which was a good thing to notice because 99% of players missed it. In fact I think we should remember Drukhari are uniquely limited historically, basically because of background material reasons, not because of gameplay reasons. I don’t expect any FAQs or TO rulings on this, but hey, anything is possible. To me it seems like the intent is exactly like it reads. In a RSR detachment everyone get traits. In a Patrol detachment only the designated units do. But the units don’t break traits, and units with keywords still belong to those keywords, whether they have an obsession or not.

I completely missed the line about how the stratagems are accessed, because the rules aren’t gathered coherently, and that part of my post was in reply to ’there’s no uses for mixing units within detachments’. For sure I think there’s plenty of them. It grants a whole ton of flexibility for army construction that otherwise wouldn’t be there.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/03 18:19:30


Post by: the_scotsman


Yeah, I think there are some units (ravagers, archon, reavers maybe) that it makes sense to drop in traitless in some situations. Triplance ravager is handy to be able to stick into a wych cult focused list - id put one in before a razorwing jetfighter almost every time.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/03 23:21:52


Post by: StrayIight


I've gone over the codex with a fine toothed comb today trying to satisfy myself with a concrete answer with regard to the above, and I have to be fair and say I think Therion is correct about Warlord Traits and Relics.

It's abundantly clear that RAW you can take any unit you like in a detachment, however only (for example) <KABAL> units gain obsessions in a Kabal detachment. So adding a Chronos say, is completely fine, but you don't get the usual obsession bonus for it.
It's clear too, that you don't get access to a Kabal/Cult/Coven specific stratagem without having that strats associated Detachment, or a Realspace Raid formation.

The codex references (as do they all seemingly) that when you add any unit to your army, you give that unit an appropriate Keyword replacing <KABAL> etc. There's nothing stopping that keyword being present, ever.
Everything I read (including the additional relic strat and the like), says nothing more than that chosen Keyword determines your choice of relic/trait. I can't see anything stopping you shoving a Cult of Strife Succubus, in a Coven detachment and giving her the Phial - it merely requires she be a CoS Succubus. Nothing elsewhere appears to prevent this.

I can't say that whether this is RAI, or even if I'm horribly wrong and have missed something obvious (please, do tell me if so - I'm completely rules blind from looking at this for so long!) but right now, it does seem legit as far as I can see.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/04 01:26:40


Post by: flamingkillamajig


Sterling191 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

I'm not certain of the math, but I think all the 'on a 6, thing happens' traits add up to 1/2 of a normal wound shift, and PT is a full wound shift plus the morale thing as a cherry on top. Maybe someone could math out how PT compares to double custom trait poison weapon thingies.


Goonhammer did their version of this analysis already. PT and Exploding Sixes are roughly a wash for Splinter Rifles, but on Splinter Cannons the latter seems to be winning out against multiwound targets. I would have preferred to see more target profiles mathed out, but it is what it is:

https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-spotlight-the-new-drukhari-codex/



So there's a positive and a negative for doing data like this in a bubble. For instance Poisoned tongue also has the combat attrition tests negative modifier for enemies and such a thing might work better in a Freak Show list but the data doesn't show that. The problem is all of this is fairly overly specific to certain things.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/04 07:41:33


Post by: JakeSiren


 StrayIight wrote:
I've gone over the codex with a fine toothed comb today trying to satisfy myself with a concrete answer with regard to the above, and I have to be fair and say I think Therion is correct about Warlord Traits and Relics.

It's abundantly clear that RAW you can take any unit you like in a detachment, however only (for example) <KABAL> units gain obsessions in a Kabal detachment. So adding a Chronos say, is completely fine, but you don't get the usual obsession bonus for it.
It's clear too, that you don't get access to a Kabal/Cult/Coven specific stratagem without having that strats associated Detachment, or a Realspace Raid formation.

The codex references (as do they all seemingly) that when you add any unit to your army, you give that unit an appropriate Keyword replacing <KABAL> etc. There's nothing stopping that keyword being present, ever.
Everything I read (including the additional relic strat and the like), says nothing more than that chosen Keyword determines your choice of relic/trait. I can't see anything stopping you shoving a Cult of Strife Succubus, in a Coven detachment and giving her the Phial - it merely requires she be a CoS Succubus. Nothing elsewhere appears to prevent this.

I can't say that whether this is RAI, or even if I'm horribly wrong and have missed something obvious (please, do tell me if so - I'm completely rules blind from looking at this for so long!) but right now, it does seem legit as far as I can see.

Regarding Kabal/Wych/Coven detachments, I wouldn't be surprised if GW FAQ'd it so that you can't take a <Wych> unit in a Kabal Detachment and so forth. Given the wording on pg 53 around stratagems it seems to be what has been assumed. Adding one subfaction to another's detachment is not something that I would lean too heavily into for list design until after the FAQ comes out.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/04 15:31:32


Post by: Venger6


So the Lhamaen poison buff allows 6s to hit to auto wound vehicles.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/04 16:30:06


Post by: StrayIight


Venger6 wrote:
So the Lhamaen poison buff allows 6s to hit to auto wound vehicles.


That's a nice catch.
Presumably, you could double the effect by using Merciless Razerkin also (each 6+ to hit causes two hits instead of one).


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/04 16:35:04


Post by: Sterling191


 StrayIight wrote:
Venger6 wrote:
So the Lhamaen poison buff allows 6s to hit to auto wound vehicles.


That's a nice catch.
Presumably, you could double the effect by using Merciless Razerkin also (each 6+ to hit causes two hits instead of one).


You cannot. The extra hit does not come with a roll value attached, and cannot proc any abilities that come from said value.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/04 17:31:50


Post by: Tyel


JakeSiren wrote:
Regarding Kabal/Wych/Coven detachments, I wouldn't be surprised if GW FAQ'd it so that you can't take a <Wych> unit in a Kabal Detachment and so forth. Given the wording on pg 53 around stratagems it seems to be what has been assumed. Adding one subfaction to another's detachment is not something that I would lean too heavily into for list design until after the FAQ comes out.


Yeah... mixed views.

It seems like such an oversight that it must be intentional - but also feels so counter-intuitive to how the game usually works, that its almost certainly a mistake.

Feel like it makes Murderarchon even more of an auto-slot in.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/05 00:55:09


Post by: Rivener


How do we deal with Mortarion? Dark Lance or Heat Lance spam doesn’t seem too cost effective.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/05 04:18:42


Post by: Red Corsair


Rivener wrote:
How do we deal with Mortarion? Dark Lance or Heat Lance spam doesn’t seem too cost effective.


Mortals would work well. Ichor injectors, precision blows, eviscerating flybys, bale blasts, possibly PLG. I mean, poison seems fairly decent as well fo chip damage and adding in dark lances and or heat lances should all snowball into your answer.

Honestly I wouldn't feel unequipped to handle him with this book. I think this book gives Death Guard players a reason to be afraid.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/05 04:57:29


Post by: Venger6


Poison from the Hellions that just flew over him wound Mortarion on a 4+ a third get through the armour and they are not damage reduced being 1 Wnd. It sure beats shooting at terminators or vehicles. Do enough chip damage and you may have some AT still spare to deal with other threats


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/05 08:47:20


Post by: Blackie


 Red Corsair wrote:
Rivener wrote:
How do we deal with Mortarion? Dark Lance or Heat Lance spam doesn’t seem too cost effective.


Mortals would work well. Ichor injectors, precision blows, eviscerating flybys, bale blasts, possibly PLG. I mean, poison seems fairly decent as well fo chip damage and adding in dark lances and or heat lances should all snowball into your answer.

Honestly I wouldn't feel unequipped to handle him with this book. I think this book gives Death Guard players a reason to be afraid.


Yeah, 9 reavers alone have 3 heat lances at bs2+ with the appopriate drug, should deal an average of 3MWs using fly-by and another 1-2 additional MWs thanks to Grav talons. For 225 points and 2CPs it's not bad, they have potential to strip 30ish % of Mortarion's wounds with decent odds. With some luck they could also tarpit the big guy for a turn.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/05 11:11:53


Post by: the_scotsman


mortal wounds and poison are probably the easiest ways we have to ignore his various layers of defenses. An obsidian rose splinter+dark lance kabalite boat strips 6 unsaved wounds off him (the rr wound on the 2 dark lances improves their performance quite a bit, but 4 of those are just the 18 splinter shots. An obrose voidraven would be a fairly effective tool against DG in general but it can pack 2 S9 dark lance shots with a wound reroll as well.

Were I up against him with my TAC list, I'd drive a suicidal transport up to him to get him -3LD, deal about 6 mws on average with my phantasm launchers, deal 10.4 wounds with the dozen +1 to hit rerolling 1s heat lances on my Talos, and then probably shoot him with poison from hellions or kabalites to finish him off.

I'm not sure if it would be a smarter idea to focus on him or on the inevitable 3-man unit of blighthaulers that would probably be in the list, given how much damage those multimeltas can put out.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/05 17:56:25


Post by: Xenomancers


Morty incredibly easy for DE to bring down with just poison weapons. If hes failing invune saves on top of it dark lances drop him hella quick too. I can see morty going out of style real quick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The list I've come up with to try out my first game is heavy kabal.

Obsidian rose Patrol 1
Master archon - blast pistol/ Djin blade

10 Trueborn / Agonizer - Darklance 2x Blaster
10x Khabs / Agonizer- Darklance

9x Incubi

VoidRaven Voidlances/ VR missiles
VoidRaven VoidLances/ VR missiles

2x Raider / Dark Lance / Splinter racks / Chains
2x Raider / Dark Lance / Chains (wyches ride in one of these)

Obsidian Rose Patrol 2

Drazar (warlord)
10x Khabs / Agonizer - Darklance

10x Incubi

1x Raider / Dark Lance / Splinter racks / Chains
1x Raider / Dark Lance / Chains


Patrol (Custom Cult - *d3 Additional combat drug and +1 to wound vs monster/vehicle)

Succubus (Tri Whip/ Precision blows)

10x Wyches - Hekatrix /power sword/ Blast Pistol/ one of each wych weapon.

Edited for CP efficiency. TY for help.



Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/05 18:56:06


Post by: the_scotsman


Second archon with djin blade is a waste of time IMO if you're not giving him Hatred, but we've already been over that. I feel like just skip him and make drazar your sole HQ in that detachment.

10x and 9x incubi plus drazar feels like massively too many incubi for my taste. In general I feel like this army has a major achilles heel of a heavy board control horde list - you have like 600 of your 2000 points in planes and one real anti-chaff unit in the 10x wyches. Kabs aren't terrible at that job but they basically have to be hanging back not controlling the board as they try to kill enough stuff to be able to move forward. If anything boops their transport they can't shoot anymore, they've got super long range but have to kind of hang out in the back.

You'll be able to just rock any MEQ/hyper elite list by massive alpha strike, but orks/daemons/clowns I think you'll have trouble.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/05 18:58:30


Post by: Sterling191


There's also no reason to run the Rose detachment as a Battalion. You're giving away 4cp out of the gate. You'll want to move the raider from the Cult detachment to the Kabal one as well as it gains nothing from being in the former (and you have 6 infantry units in the Rose detachment, meaning you get 6 transport slots).


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/05 19:29:09


Post by: vipoid


 Xenomancers wrote:

Succubus (Tri Whip/ Precision blows)
*can I put a blast pistol on this???* Sure want to.


Lamentably not. Succubi can't swap their Glaive for one. So they only take a Blast Pistol if they wield a Glaive.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/05 19:31:31


Post by: Xenomancers


Sterling191 wrote:
There's also no reason to run the Rose detachment as a Battalion. You're giving away 4cp out of the gate. You'll want to move the raider from the Cult detachment to the Kabal one as well as it gains nothing from being in the former (and you have 6 infantry units in the Rose detachment, meaning you get 6 transport slots).

Good Call - can just fit into 3 patrols anyways. Isn't your first battalion/ / Brigade free though?

Also - Cult units can ride in a kabal transport? That is allowed?


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/05 19:35:29


Post by: the_scotsman


 Xenomancers wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
There's also no reason to run the Rose detachment as a Battalion. You're giving away 4cp out of the gate. You'll want to move the raider from the Cult detachment to the Kabal one as well as it gains nothing from being in the former (and you have 6 infantry units in the Rose detachment, meaning you get 6 transport slots).

Good Call - can just fit into 3 patrols anyways. Isn't your first battalion/ / Brigade free though?

Also - Cult units can ride in a kabal transport? That is allowed?


Yeah transports just take DRUKHARI.

Your first battalion is free. BUT, it's free by way of "it costs 3cp, and gives you 3cp if your warlord is in it."

Drukhari all patrols makes the patrols cost 0cp. AND, if your warlord is in it, it still gives you 2CP.

So an all patrol army has 12, +2 for your warlord being in the patrol. So drukhari armies get 2 extra CP.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/05 19:51:34


Post by: Xenomancers


the_scotsman wrote:
Second archon with djin blade is a waste of time IMO if you're not giving him Hatred, but we've already been over that. I feel like just skip him and make drazar your sole HQ in that detachment.

10x and 9x incubi plus drazar feels like massively too many incubi for my taste. In general I feel like this army has a major achilles heel of a heavy board control horde list - you have like 600 of your 2000 points in planes and one real anti-chaff unit in the 10x wyches. Kabs aren't terrible at that job but they basically have to be hanging back not controlling the board as they try to kill enough stuff to be able to move forward. If anything boops their transport they can't shoot anymore, they've got super long range but have to kind of hang out in the back.

You'll be able to just rock any MEQ/hyper elite list by massive alpha strike, but orks/daemons/clowns I think you'll have trouble.

Plan was to have him roll with draz and incubi giving them the rerolls - I guess hes really not necessary but I want the trueborn too. I could drop him and trueborn upgrades and it doesn't even pay for another raider kahb unit :(.

I am thinking this is too many incubi too but I really have no idea how it is gonna play yet. (I played against 3 5 mans the first day the army came out and they did really well against me). Just going with the models that I have that I think forms some kind of a cohesive army. I also have lot of revers and they seem like they will be good too but the prices are clearly messed up on them so don't wanna bother.

Edited from yall advice. Look good now?


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/05 21:38:21


Post by: flamingkillamajig


 vipoid wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Succubus (Tri Whip/ Precision blows)
*can I put a blast pistol on this???* Sure want to.


Lamentably not. Succubi can't swap their Glaive for one. So they only take a Blast Pistol if they wield a Glaive.


Psh what's with you guys? Do you want them to be one of those old shooter characters with like 10 weapons at all times or rpg characters that wield 300 lbs of crap like it's nothing before theyre over-burdened?

Yeah a pistol is actually not asking much. Wish our archon could wield a blaster and huskblade at the same time. Oh wait they can't have blasters....and haemonculus can't wield hex rifles....and we still don't have mobility options for our leaders yet. I'm sad now.

-------

Oddly I think dark scythes will replace dissies for me. I have 2 void ravens fully built but i'll have to proxy dark scythes. 12 shots on 2 planes wounding on 2s vs marines is pretty solid. I'm probably gonna need obsidian rose for the range boost though. It's actually sad how much void ravens out-class razorwing jets now. I'm not sure how they handle point vs point though.

I still think splinter cannon venoms with maybe enhanced sensory organs will be my go to vs anti-meq and whatever the equivalent is for one wound marines or sisters now.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/06 09:47:59


Post by: Scactha


What are your opinion on secondaries?

I´m thinking 2 blobs of Wracks (plus friends) holding the midfield Primaries and the rest of the army clearing our half of the table for Herd the Prey. Then Scramblers (Kabalites and Scourges) and Yvraine in the middle of the Freakshow wall doing Psychic Ritual. Should be 15+15+10 most of the time.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/06 10:53:53


Post by: Blackie


 Xenomancers wrote:
Morty incredibly easy for DE to bring down with just poison weapons. If hes failing invune saves on top of it dark lances drop him hella quick too. I can see morty going out of style real quick.


Poison Tongue obsession really could help here. 5 venoms alone, which can carry kabalites but also incubi, with dual splinter cannons have 30 shots, all wounding on 3s and with AP-1. Along with sources of MWs poison can be quite nasty for Morty.

I'd save lances and proper anti tank weapons for other stuff probably.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/06 11:57:12


Post by: the_scotsman


 Scactha wrote:
What are your opinion on secondaries?

I´m thinking 2 blobs of Wracks (plus friends) holding the midfield Primaries and the rest of the army clearing our half of the table for Herd the Prey. Then Scramblers (Kabalites and Scourges) and Yvraine in the middle of the Freakshow wall doing Psychic Ritual. Should be 15+15+10 most of the time.


Personally i feel like herd the prey is just bad engage on all fronts. like, I guess if you're up against a castling opponent who is doing like banners and not doing scramblers and trying to turtle up it could be a free 15, but most opponents I play against nowadays are doing the thing where they take little weenie units and plan to use them to score engage and scramblers and sometimes homer

All of the drukahri secondaries are kind of refreshing IMO because you look at them and go "I can see an opposing list that I would take this against....but this is never ALWAYS going to be the thing I want to do." there's no engage, there's no scramblers in there.

If you're heavy into wych cults, beasts for the arenas will be something you'll probably be able to go for fairly commonly in the current meta (what with sisters+ponies and admech horses and such running around). Herd the prey is good ironically as something you want to go for if your opponent doesn't want to spread out, so you can force them to do so or give up a free 15. Take them Alive is interesting because it kind of runs counter to a heavy alpha strike ethos, ideally you want to spread your casualties out and kill things each round of the game. I feel like a lot of the time if you have enough stuff on the board for take them alive, you will often go for assassinate instead.

Fear and Terror is one I think i'll find myself going to a lot, basically any time I"m not against loyalist marines, because my tac list does have a lot of that freakshow element though the primary purpose of it is to give me +1 to hit rerolling 1s talos melta guns and the excellent fear incarnate warlord trait. But if I am up against an opponent with chaff I can eat, I'll be happy to take it and spook 15 dudes off the board.

my only issue with it is how similar Beasts for the Arenas and Take them Alive is.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/06 13:23:26


Post by: Sterling191


 Scactha wrote:
What are your opinion on secondaries?

I´m thinking 2 blobs of Wracks (plus friends) holding the midfield Primaries and the rest of the army clearing our half of the table for Herd the Prey. Then Scramblers (Kabalites and Scourges) and Yvraine in the middle of the Freakshow wall doing Psychic Ritual. Should be 15+15+10 most of the time.


If you're going for Scramblers, you want Mandrakes. They can innately re-deploy midgame in addition to their scout deploy pregame. Even a single squad of 5 as a utility pick makes Scramblers largely trivial.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/06 13:33:38


Post by: Xenomancers


 Blackie wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Morty incredibly easy for DE to bring down with just poison weapons. If hes failing invune saves on top of it dark lances drop him hella quick too. I can see morty going out of style real quick.


Poison Tongue obsession really could help here. 5 venoms alone, which can carry kabalites but also incubi, with dual splinter cannons have 30 shots, all wounding on 3s and with AP-1. Along with sources of MWs poison can be quite nasty for Morty.

I'd save lances and proper anti tank weapons for other stuff probably.

Well once you commit to killing him - you've gotta commit lances at that point. Pretty good chance you can drop him with just poison weapons though. DG is such an easy matchup for DE if they bring morty.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/06 13:34:25


Post by: the_scotsman


I think its also worth noting that there's a drukhari subfaction that makes action-based objectives extremely easy - coven of 12. Hexrifle/ossefactor 5-man wrack squads in coven of 12 detachment can Action and Shoot, as can any other unit if you're taking basically any mission with a built-in secondary (most mission secondaries do not specify INFANTRY only, so you can have cronos/talos pain engines popping longer ranged shots off while still performing actions.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/06 14:10:56


Post by: Sterling191


 Xenomancers wrote:

Well once you commit to killing him - you've gotta commit lances at that point. Pretty good chance you can drop him with just poison weapons though. DG is such an easy matchup for DE if they bring morty.


Wouldn't call it an "easy" matchup, you're still needing nearly two hundred PT poison shots to put Morty down (this drops somewhat if you're taking Cannons for the extra AP). Between his -1 to hit and 5+++ he's still a beefy, beefy boy.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/06 14:19:54


Post by: the_scotsman


Sterling191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Well once you commit to killing him - you've gotta commit lances at that point. Pretty good chance you can drop him with just poison weapons though. DG is such an easy matchup for DE if they bring morty.


Wouldn't call it an "easy" matchup, you're still needing nearly two hundred PT poison shots to put Morty down (this drops somewhat if you're taking Cannons for the extra AP). Between his -1 to hit and 5+++ he's still a beefy, beefy boy.


how does he get the -1 to hit? I see the 5+FNP now from one of his WL traits, which sucks, but wheres he getting the -1?


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/06 14:23:48


Post by: Sterling191


the_scotsman wrote:

how does he get the -1 to hit? I see the 5+FNP now from one of his WL traits, which sucks, but wheres he getting the -1?


Miasma of Pestilence psyker power. It's pretty much an auto-take in a DG list. Whether it's going on Morty, a block of Terminators, a PBC, Plague Drones banzaiing up the board, it's always going to get used.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/06 14:30:58


Post by: Rivener


Sterling191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Well once you commit to killing him - you've gotta commit lances at that point. Pretty good chance you can drop him with just poison weapons though. DG is such an easy matchup for DE if they bring morty.


Wouldn't call it an "easy" matchup, you're still needing nearly two hundred PT poison shots to put Morty down (this drops somewhat if you're taking Cannons for the extra AP). Between his -1 to hit and 5+++ he's still a beefy, beefy boy.


Yeah, I think people are seeing wounding on a 4+ and thinking it’s a slam dunk. It takes a staggering amount of splinter rifle shots to bring him down. Wyches are a terrible matchup but could theoretically keep him held in place. Wracks get absolutely wrecked, but with the perfect coven combo they can deal some wounds back at least. The number of dark lances required to kill him when he has Miasma (which he very nearly always will) is shocking.

I think one of the more cost effective options we have to bring him down in one turn is actually Hellions using a custom cult: Test of Skill/Slashing Impact, take +1 Str drugs, then only go for the kill in T3 when they hit on 2’s. Even with Miasma up, you could theoretically take about 2/3 of his wounds off if you can miraculously Eviscerating Fly-By with all 20 Hellions.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/06 14:32:00


Post by: the_scotsman


Sterling191 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

how does he get the -1 to hit? I see the 5+FNP now from one of his WL traits, which sucks, but wheres he getting the -1?


Miasma of Pestilence psyker power. It's pretty much an auto-take in a DG list. Whether it's going on Morty, a block of Terminators, a PBC, Plague Drones banzaiing up the board, it's always going to get used.


OK, gotcha. Well, all the more reason trueborn rule I guess.

T8 18W 4++ 5+FNP -1 to hit -1 damage holy freakin moly.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/06 14:36:05


Post by: Sterling191


Realistically, Morty is hard to shift but slow enough (and short ranged enough) that a flotilla can generally play around him for a few rounds. Take out his support pieces, plink off a few wounds where you can, but generally just keep an opponent from closing in where Contagions do their work.

PBCs dropping mortars and Fleshmower drones are what I worry about far more in the early game. If you can knock those out, Morty (or a block of Terminators) is just a big slow target to be whittled down at leisure.

the_scotsman wrote:

OK, gotcha. Well, all the more reason trueborn rule I guess.

T8 18W 4++ 5+FNP -1 to hit -1 damage holy freakin moly.


Yup, he's a beefy boy.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/06 15:03:12


Post by: Tyel


the_scotsman wrote:
Personally i feel like herd the prey is just bad engage on all fronts. like, I guess if you're up against a castling opponent who is doing like banners and not doing scramblers and trying to turtle up it could be a free 15, but most opponents I play against nowadays are doing the thing where they take little weenie units and plan to use them to score engage and scramblers and sometimes homer


If they are throwing out a few weenie units to score engage/scramblers that's fine - just go kill them to clear the quarter. You were probably going to do so anyway.

I mean if I said "can you max out Engage turns 2-5 without moving troops" I think you'd say "no chance" - or at least no chance unless the game's extremely one-sided. Which makes me think Herd the Prey is probably a guaranteed 6-12 points in most circumstances.

This is a bit of a 180 from my thoughts up until Saturday or something - but still. I don't think its a bad engage - just different. In practice moving units is always more reliable than having to kill something - but equally sometimes you don't want to scatter your forces all over the table.

Its probably something to tailor based on your opponent's list.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/06 19:21:45


Post by: Audustum


Tyel wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Personally i feel like herd the prey is just bad engage on all fronts. like, I guess if you're up against a castling opponent who is doing like banners and not doing scramblers and trying to turtle up it could be a free 15, but most opponents I play against nowadays are doing the thing where they take little weenie units and plan to use them to score engage and scramblers and sometimes homer


If they are throwing out a few weenie units to score engage/scramblers that's fine - just go kill them to clear the quarter. You were probably going to do so anyway.

I mean if I said "can you max out Engage turns 2-5 without moving troops" I think you'd say "no chance" - or at least no chance unless the game's extremely one-sided. Which makes me think Herd the Prey is probably a guaranteed 6-12 points in most circumstances.

This is a bit of a 180 from my thoughts up until Saturday or something - but still. I don't think its a bad engage - just different. In practice moving units is always more reliable than having to kill something - but equally sometimes you don't want to scatter your forces all over the table.

Its probably something to tailor based on your opponent's list.


Speaking of this, I read a review that said Engage and Herd are different categories and thus you can take both (my book is in the mail). Is this true? Seems like huge combo potential.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/06 19:32:13


Post by: Sterling191


Audustum wrote:

Speaking of this, I read a review that said Engage and Herd are different categories and thus you can take both (my book is in the mail). Is this true? Seems like huge combo potential.


Nope. They're both Battlefield Supremacy.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/06 19:45:36


Post by: Audustum


Sterling191 wrote:
Audustum wrote:

Speaking of this, I read a review that said Engage and Herd are different categories and thus you can take both (my book is in the mail). Is this true? Seems like huge combo potential.


Nope. They're both Battlefield Supremacy.


Laaaaaame. Good to know though


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/06 19:59:30


Post by: Sterling191


We sadly cant all be Ravenwing and get 30VP just for showing up.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/06 20:48:51


Post by: Audustum


Sterling191 wrote:
We sadly cant all be Ravenwing and get 30VP just for showing up.


Ha!

I guess while I'm here bugging you guys as a DE newbie, what's you're take on Reapers? I kind of like the look of the 1D6 shot volume.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/06 20:54:03


Post by: Sterling191


It's not a bad unit, it's just got serious competition from the Ravager which does the same job reliably and efficiently. Also, at present it doesnt get Power From Pain, and is stuck with the old Bladevanes profile.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/06 21:16:55


Post by: gameandwatch


the_scotsman wrote:


Fear and Terror is one I think i'll find myself going to a lot, basically any time I"m not against loyalist marines, because my tac list does have a lot of that freakshow element though the primary purpose of it is to give me +1 to hit rerolling 1s talos melta guns and the excellent fear incarnate warlord trait. But if I am up against an opponent with chaff I can eat, I'll be happy to take it and spook 15 dudes off the board.


Not sure where the reroll 1s is coming from, but isnt the +1 to hit dark creed melee only?


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/07 03:17:40


Post by: Audustum


Does anyone know if No Method of Death Beyond Our Grasp work on Bloodbrides or is it just vanilla Wyches?


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/07 06:02:45


Post by: Denegaar


Bloodbrides have the WYCH keyword, so I guess it works with them.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/07 06:12:18


Post by: Audustum


 Denegaar wrote:
Bloodbrides have the WYCH keyword, so I guess it works with them.


I was asking because I've seen at least one statement that it's tied to the Wych datasheet like the Space Marine one is tied to Assault Intercessors. My book is in the mail so I can't check.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/07 06:18:28


Post by: Denegaar


Yeah no problem.

The stratagem says "pick a unit of Cult of Strife Wyches", and the Wych datasheed doesn't change when improving them to Bloodbrides, so they keep the "wyches" keyword. And of course, they have to be Cult of Strife.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/07 06:19:08


Post by: Audustum


 Denegaar wrote:
Yeah no problem.

The stratagem says "pick a unit of Cult of Strife Wyches", and the Wych datasheed doesn't change when improving them to Bloodbrides, so they keep the "wyches" keyword. And of course, they have to be Cult of Strife.


Yeah that sure sounds like it works. O.K., thanks again!


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/07 07:29:48


Post by: Scactha


Tyel wrote:
If they are throwing out a few weenie units to score engage/scramblers that's fine - just go kill them to clear the quarter. You were probably going to do so anyway.

I mean if I said "can you max out Engage turns 2-5 without moving troops" I think you'd say "no chance" - or at least no chance unless the game's extremely one-sided. Which makes me think Herd the Prey is probably a guaranteed 6-12 points in most circumstances.

This is a bit of a 180 from my thoughts up until Saturday or something - but still. I don't think its a bad engage - just different. In practice moving units is always more reliable than having to kill something - but equally sometimes you don't want to scatter your forces all over the table.
This goes along my thinking too. Engage need you to spread out, equaling more risk due to less support and bigger footprint. It also means it´s harder to hold Primaries since there´s a tax as the exposed units will often die. With Herd you instead force the opponents hand to serve you units.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/07 07:51:31


Post by: Denegaar


It really depends on the opponent and its battle plan.

The good thing is that we are talking about that, what makes Herd the Prey a balances and good secondary to think about.

Of course Engage gives you the control while Herd gives the control to your adversary. That makes me lean towards Engage in most cases.
On the other hand, making the enemies commit to deny our Herd can make them take bad decisions and offer us easy targets. That makes me think Heard is more fun to play with.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/07 11:30:37


Post by: the_scotsman


Audustum wrote:
Does anyone know if No Method of Death Beyond Our Grasp work on Bloodbrides or is it just vanilla Wyches?


All the upgraded forms of our troops gain the appropriate keyword, they don't lose their existing keywords IIRC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gameandwatch wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


Fear and Terror is one I think i'll find myself going to a lot, basically any time I"m not against loyalist marines, because my tac list does have a lot of that freakshow element though the primary purpose of it is to give me +1 to hit rerolling 1s talos melta guns and the excellent fear incarnate warlord trait. But if I am up against an opponent with chaff I can eat, I'll be happy to take it and spook 15 dudes off the board.


Not sure where the reroll 1s is coming from, but isnt the +1 to hit dark creed melee only?


Ah feth me, you're right. For some reason I'd had it in my head this whole time that that ability was actually useful, but no, I guess a full 1/2 of Dark Creed just goes the feth away on turn 3.

RR1s is from the rsr archon reroll 1s to hit aura.

Welp, Dark Technomancers or Artists of the Flesh, which am I gonna go for?

Let's be real, Dark Creed+Poisoned Tongue was a beautiful dream I had anyway because there's basically a zero percent chance any given game I'm playing that I'm not playing space marines, and it doesn't make sense to pick the subfactions that just don't work against marines. so it'll just come down to if I want my talos brick to be tougher or more deadly.

Rereading dark technomancers I'm actually much less worried about using it on talos, since it's "if any unmodified hit rolls of 1 are rolled...then the bearer's unit suffers d3 mortal wounds" - so you're gonna shoot your 6 heat lance shots with a unit of 3, one of them is gonna roll a 1 most likely, and then you take one single d3 mortal wounds that you get a 5+ save against....yeah, that's worth +1 to wound and +1 damage.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/07 19:14:43


Post by: harlokin


What's the opinion on which Wych weapons are worthwhile in a 10 strong squad?


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/07 19:26:38


Post by: the_scotsman


 harlokin wrote:
What's the opinion on which Wych weapons are worthwhile in a 10 strong squad?


I'm going for all of them, usually. Least worthwhile is probably the hydra gauntlets, but basically you're paying:

-10 points for +1 on your No Escape rolls and better than doubled damage output vs MEQ (totally worth it)
-5 points for 1.5x damage on one wych (worth it IMO)
-5 points for -1AP and +1 to wound vs GEQ/vehicles +2 to wound vs MEQ (most difficult to justify but still useful IMO)

10 wyches is 100 points, 125pts with upgrades on everyone. Assuming cult of strife wyches with no drugs just for ease of comparison, you've got:

-Just knives:
-9 dead Orks
-5.41 damage to MEQs
-3 damage to a standard tank

-All the goodies
-12.3 dead orks
-7.53 damage to MEQs
-4.33 damage to a standard tank

^I understand, obviously, actual numbers will be way better than that if you take particular cults, drugs etc, but it just shows how much of a damage multiplier those weapons can offer.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/07 19:26:39


Post by: Audustum


 harlokin wrote:
What's the opinion on which Wych weapons are worthwhile in a 10 strong squad?


Shardnet or Whip I would think. Whip gooses out a few extra attacks which is nice, but the Shardnet helps you win the No Escape roll-off so it's probably better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Does anyone know if No Method of Death Beyond Our Grasp work on Bloodbrides or is it just vanilla Wyches?


All the upgraded forms of our troops gain the appropriate keyword, they don't lose their existing keywords IIRC.


Thanks!


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/07 19:34:36


Post by: StrayIight


 harlokin wrote:
What's the opinion on which Wych weapons are worthwhile in a 10 strong squad?


I guess it depends on your game plan and how flush you're feeling points wise.

If you have a Cult of Strife detachment, an agoniser on a squad leader is an interesting option. The Charadon book has a strat called 'Hekatarii of the Crucible', which allows a standard Wych squad leader to take a relic. 'Morvaines Agoniser' can then be given in place of a standard agoniser, which in turn means any hits she causes automatically prevents the opposing unit from falling back. No roll off needed.

Razorflails seem to always be a good bet, insomuch as they effectively give you an extra bodies worth of output, but in only half the footprint on the board. I think I'd always take those where points allow.



Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/07 21:23:25


Post by: harlokin


Thanks for the responses, chaps.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 00:23:56


Post by: Inevitable_Faith


What about the Hekatrix, is it worth upgrading her melee weapons? I know blast pistol is a popular option but does an agoniser or power sword boost the numbers enough to justify it over taking razorflails and hydra gauntlets?


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 03:15:51


Post by: jivardi


Agonizer is nice for 2+ wound against anything not a Titan or vehicle. Against DG or any other T3+ model, ie everything, wounding on 2's can't be a bad thing.

Give her the relic whip and it's nearly guaranteed the enemy unit isn't falling back.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 05:46:26


Post by: Venger6


Agoniser is 4+ the Tryptych is 2+


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 09:34:45


Post by: lessthanjeff


 StrayIight wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
What's the opinion on which Wych weapons are worthwhile in a 10 strong squad?


I guess it depends on your game plan and how flush you're feeling points wise.

If you have a Cult of Strife detachment, an agoniser on a squad leader is an interesting option. The Charadon book has a strat called 'Hekatarii of the Crucible', which allows a standard Wych squad leader to take a relic. 'Morvaines Agoniser' can then be given in place of a standard agoniser, which in turn means any hits she causes automatically prevents the opposing unit from falling back. No roll off needed.

Razorflails seem to always be a good bet, insomuch as they effectively give you an extra bodies worth of output, but in only half the footprint on the board. I think I'd always take those where points allow.



Razorflails are adding less attacks than you think. You only get half an extra wych out of them.

Wych with Hekatarii blade: 4 attacks

Wych with Razorflails: 6 attacks.

If you're using adrenalight it becomes 5 vs 8, but still not an extra body's worth.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 10:57:17


Post by: Blackie


I wouldn't cut a blast pistol in a 10 man squad of wyches. For 5 points blast pistols on anything melee related are really auto take.

In fact I'd probably just upgrade the squad with agoniser and blast pistol for the hekatrix, no other special weapons. Razorflails, Gauntlets and Shardnet/Impaler are all good for their points but they typically don't add that much to the squad, slow down the game, and if you play WYSIWYG it's hard to play an hekatrix without any upgrades anyway. All my former hekatrix at least weren't just barebones models.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 11:39:32


Post by: harlokin


I agree 100% on the Blast Pistol.

Talking about WYSIWYG...what's the opinion when it comes to Phantasm Grenade Launchers, do they have to be modelled?

From memory, neither the Raider nor Venom kits come with one, Kabalites do (not that any of mine have them modelled), Hellions do (but theirs looks different).

I suppose, does the same apply to Chain Snares and Grisly Trophies?


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 11:51:03


Post by: JNAProductions


 harlokin wrote:
I agree 100% on the Blast Pistol.

Talking about WYSIWYG...what's the opinion when it comes to Phantasm Grenade Launchers, do they have to be modelled?

From memory, neither the Raider nor Venom kits come with one, Kabalites do (not that any of mine have them modelled), Hellions do (but theirs looks different).

I suppose, does the same apply to Chain Snares and Grisly Trophies?
Ask your TO or opponents what they want.

In general, I’d say just avoid any confusion-if only some units have Phantasms, make it clear SOMEHOW who has them.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 11:52:00


Post by: StrayIight


 harlokin wrote:
I agree 100% on the Blast Pistol.

Talking about WYSIWYG...what's the opinion when it comes to Phantasm Grenade Launchers, do they have to be modelled?

From memory, neither the Raider nor Venom kits come with one, Kabalites do (not that any of mine have them modelled), Hellions do (but theirs looks different).

I suppose, does the same apply to Chain Snares and Grisly Trophies?


I like to model my units with wysiwyg in mind, but I think it's unreasonable to expect that from any one I play against. As you say, many of these kits don't even come with the options. Not every player has the resources (time, money, modelling skills) to be able to meet a wysiwyg requirement, so it can become an unfair barrier to play.

Mark them on a list that your opponent can access, and make it clear and unambiguous as to what unit has x, and which do not. I think that's the only reasonable expectation any one should really worry about


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 12:57:26


Post by: Audustum


I like there to be something visual but I'm not a stickler. If your army has all swords but ONE guy has an axe and you gave him a hammer instead, whatever, I get the idea. I gave one of my guys a two-handed greatsword instead of an axe.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 14:16:43


Post by: Gir Spirit Bane


Phantasm grenades I just tell my opponent who has it and make sure the model is modelled or painted in a way to distinguish it clearly. worse comes to worse I can put a coloured plastic ring around the base of all my models with it to help my opponent remember.

WYSWIG is tricky when not all kits HAVE phantasm launchers but can take them as an option


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 14:28:02


Post by: Denegaar


Also, every PGL looks different. Kabalite/Wych look the same, but both Hellion and Vehicle ones are absolutely different than the Troop version.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 14:55:16


Post by: the_scotsman


Drukhari models have some of the dumbest WYSIWYG stuff ever - like the microscopic PGLs on hellions and the cluster caltrops and guns that are UNDERNEATH reaver jetbikes so you can't see them.

Luckily, it's fairly easy to point out what has what in my army - ronald mcdonald has the PGL in the hellion squad, the guy riding the flayed skin jetbike is the Arena Champion and the one colored like a Tron bike has the special gun, the raiders that I've modeled with all wyches hanging off them with the nasty spikes and such have the grisly trophies and the chain snares and the one I've modeled with the splinter racks, all kabalites and the driver with the PGL has the PGL and splinter racks....it's...unconventional, but nobody ever could accuse me of not being able to differentiate my special dudes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do run nonsense one of everything scourges and just tell my opponents which gun they're supposed to have 4 of. Because feth that gak I'm not figuring out how to collect all the scourges with the same gun and then have them just change which gun is best every edition.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 15:04:19


Post by: Azuza001


So I wanted to ask, having read a large portion of this I don't see anyone talking about Phantasm Grenade launchers? My first thought was

Venoms in the dark creed with Grisly Trophies to get -3ld bubble followed by raiders / kabilite sybrites / wych hekatrix all with Phantasm Grenade launchers. Even an bladeguard vets unit with an aincent in it is dropped to 7. then just peppering them with mass Grenade shots.... bye bye bladeguard vets?

I mean my first list I came up with is running 8 of the launchers, assuming numbers of averages that 16 shots, 11 hits, 5 or 6 mortal wounds onto such a tough unit. And they have high ld, a russ tank commander wouldn't be anywhere near that lucky. Or a hive tyrant or Chaos deamon prince.... even necrons dropping them to 7 to pepper a doomsday ark or something else big....


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 15:24:29


Post by: StrayIight


the_scotsman wrote:

I do run nonsense one of everything scourges and just tell my opponents which gun they're supposed to have 4 of. Because feth that gak I'm not figuring out how to collect all the scourges with the same gun and then have them just change which gun is best every edition.


I think this is entirely sensible.
I love beautifully painted armies, equipped precisely etc, but it's seriously unfair to place an expectation on the community as a whole to keep up with these kind of requirements - especially in an evolving meta.

As a not unrelated extension, this is one of my bigger concerns regarding competitive play. In a meta which can change month by month via new rules releases, to compete reasonably seriously can require you to have either a huge amount of disposable income, the contacts to borrow a large range of models from, or simply to have have been involved for many, many years so you've built up a useful personal collection.

That's dangerously close to an insurmountable task for a newer player, which certainly doesn't help in growing a community.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 15:30:39


Post by: Inevitable_Faith


I agree Azuza001, PGL in a vacuum isn't all that impressive but once you factor in the multiple ways we can drop Ld of an opponent and the sheer volume of these things we can bring it really does start to add up. Factor in that you can split fire it so your PGL shoots at the better target of opportunity and the rest of your squad can maintain focus on its primary target it offers some play.

A sneaky 1d3 MW or 1 MW here and there on a variety of our gear (caltrops, grav talons, certain obsessions like cult of cursed blade, toxin syringe, slashing impact, haywire grenade, shock prow etc...) we actually have a good variety of ways to pepper in MW across the army. I feel the PGL can just add to this for relatively cheap.

If I'm not mistaken very few armies are actually immune to it as well right? Marines ignore attrition mods I believe? This is simply a test vs. Ld characteristic, no failed LD necessary. Things like nids within synapse aren't even immune. Large mobs of orks however are I think as their LD is based on # of models and as such can hit pretty massive numbers right?


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 15:36:10


Post by: Azuza001


Nothing is immune to this kind of ld test. There are no rules I know of that say "you pass ld tests", just ones to auto pass moral which uses the ld value.

Only thing that stops it are things that shut down auras, morty won't get effected from the -3ld because he stops the auras from working. The rest of his army though..... time to see how that squad of 3 deathshroud terms like our toys.... lol.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 15:36:13


Post by: StrayIight


We definitely have a large number of ways to deal mortal wounds (you'd suspect this is by deliberate design, with the writers awareness that we lack any presence in the psychic phase?)

A good list is likely going to be one that's full aware of this and very much takes advantage of one or more.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 15:41:53


Post by: Sterling191


Azuza001 wrote:

Only thing that stops it are things that shut down auras, morty won't get effected from the -3ld because he stops the auras from working. The rest of his army though..... time to see how that squad of 3 deathshroud terms like our toys.... lol.


Clarification, he prevents enemy units within 3" from being affected by aura abilities (excluding psyker powers) from units in the enemy army. The auras themselves are still there, they just cant affect enemies (IE: Drukhari in this hypothetical). Morty is still taking the -3 because the ability doesn't prevent friendly units (IE: Death Guard) from being affected.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 17:59:58


Post by: the_scotsman


Azuza001 wrote:
So I wanted to ask, having read a large portion of this I don't see anyone talking about Phantasm Grenade launchers? My first thought was

Venoms in the dark creed with Grisly Trophies to get -3ld bubble followed by raiders / kabilite sybrites / wych hekatrix all with Phantasm Grenade launchers. Even an bladeguard vets unit with an aincent in it is dropped to 7. then just peppering them with mass Grenade shots.... bye bye bladeguard vets?

I mean my first list I came up with is running 8 of the launchers, assuming numbers of averages that 16 shots, 11 hits, 5 or 6 mortal wounds onto such a tough unit. And they have high ld, a russ tank commander wouldn't be anywhere near that lucky. Or a hive tyrant or Chaos deamon prince.... even necrons dropping them to 7 to pepper a doomsday ark or something else big....


A PGL deals an average of 0.4 MW if you drop an opponent down to Ld7 from 10. Not a super amazing weapon tbh, at that point, and it requires ld-bombing with specifically Dark Creed, which is something of a less powerful creed.

There is, however, one thing I was considering: using other ld-bombing allies to accomplish similar things.

Consider the following:

Poisoned Tongue Battalion

Murderarchon
Drazar

6x5 Kabalite warriors with PGLs
3x Raiders with PGL+Trophies

Silent Shroud Patrol

Shadowseer
Solitaire with Mask of Secrets (1cp)
Death Jester

5x troupe with some wargear
5x troupe with some wargear

2x2 haywire skyweavers
2x Starweavers

Craftworld Patrol

Farseer on bike
5x rangers
1x Hemlock Wraithfighter with Terrify

Using a list setup like this, you can EASILY drop any target down in leadership just to an absurd degree, and you've got 9 PGLs and Mind War and the Credann grenade launcher and Drazar with Tormentors to just pile on the mortal wounds and negative side-effects, so even if you're up against a totally fearless opponent, you're getting use out of that.



Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 19:08:25


Post by: Xenomancers


Best source of mortal wounds is easily the VRB.
4+ to do d6 to multiple units. Then OFC the Whip Succubus probably comes in second. The PGL is pretty much an afterthought - units that get it for free why not take it. If it cost you points skip it.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 19:34:20


Post by: lessthanjeff


the_scotsman wrote:


A PGL deals an average of 0.4 MW if you drop an opponent down to Ld7 from 10. Not a super amazing weapon tbh, at that point, and it requires ld-bombing with specifically Dark Creed, which is something of a less powerful creed.



I got 0.55 MW for LD 7

2 shots, 2/3 hit, 5/12 8+ on 2 d6?

Not a huge number, but when we're talking about something like 30 points for 6 of them to do 3.3 mortal wounds on average each turn I'd happily pay it many times over if I could. If we could just spend 300 points on that same output it would be 30+ mortal wounds a turn.

Plus a lot of units will be starting at leadership 8 or 9 instead of 10 so the numbers are even higher against most armies.

One other nice thing to remember for calculations is that it is a blast weapon. Many of the units I want to use it against are super durable units that opponents bring in large enough squads to maximize buffs which means it's going to be a flat 3 shots each. Brings the averages even higher and if you're running black heart and don't use the reroll on your raider lance shot that helps even more.

I'm a fan of the PGL on everything right now.



Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 19:34:32


Post by: StrayIight


 Xenomancers wrote:
Best source of mortal wounds is easily the VRB.
4+ to do d6 to multiple units. Then OFC the Whip Succubus probably comes in second. The PGL is pretty much an afterthought - units that get it for free why not take it. If it cost you points skip it.


The VRB is very impressive, but I think it pales in comparison to the potential of Eviscerating Fly-by on a big unit of Hellions... assuming you can keep them safe enough to keep using it.

But then again why choose? We can take the full spectrum of aerial mortal wound spam.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 20:16:42


Post by: Xenomancers


 StrayIight wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Best source of mortal wounds is easily the VRB.
4+ to do d6 to multiple units. Then OFC the Whip Succubus probably comes in second. The PGL is pretty much an afterthought - units that get it for free why not take it. If it cost you points skip it.


The VRB is very impressive, but I think it pales in comparison to the potential of Eviscerating Fly-by on a big unit of Hellions... assuming you can keep them safe enough to keep using it.

But then again why choose? We can take the full spectrum of aerial mortal wound spam.

How did I forget about those! Yeah dirty for sure. Though - they don't have aircraft speed. Just really fast for a normal unit. VRB is almost impossible to defend against. Plus I only have 5 of the buggers. Need more for sure to really try them out.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 21:21:02


Post by: Audustum


 Xenomancers wrote:
 StrayIight wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Best source of mortal wounds is easily the VRB.
4+ to do d6 to multiple units. Then OFC the Whip Succubus probably comes in second. The PGL is pretty much an afterthought - units that get it for free why not take it. If it cost you points skip it.


The VRB is very impressive, but I think it pales in comparison to the potential of Eviscerating Fly-by on a big unit of Hellions... assuming you can keep them safe enough to keep using it.

But then again why choose? We can take the full spectrum of aerial mortal wound spam.

How did I forget about those! Yeah dirty for sure. Though - they don't have aircraft speed. Just really fast for a normal unit. VRB is almost impossible to defend against. Plus I only have 5 of the buggers. Need more for sure to really try them out.


You want aircraft speed? Put Hypex on them, use the strat to double the effect of drugs and then Advance. Looking at 14"+4"+1D6". It's not top end aircraft fast, but it is bottom aircraft speed.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 21:38:53


Post by: harlokin


I've never used Hellions, and I'm very interested in how they do in practice.

Obviously, the concept of 20 Hellions using Eviscerating Fly-By for 10 MW, and then Invigorated By Evisceration for a 4++ sounds really fun, but I worry about the practicalities of keeping a unit with such a large footprint out of sight, and then using it at the right time.

Reavers seem a safer option in some ways, they are easier to hide, and have more options because of their ranged ability.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/08 22:16:25


Post by: StrayIight


I've always loved them as a unit visually, and they're certainly worth taking now. But you're not wrong, 20 of them is a big unit to try and hide, and you know any opponent worth their salt is going to be well aware of that average of 10 mortals they can dish out from EF alone - they're bound to attract fire.

I'm wondering (mostly as a thought experiment really), how much staying power is gained for them via a combination of getting them to T5 with the combat drug, minus -1 to hit with the reflexes strat and 'Invigorated by...' for the invuln.

Potentially, given the unit size, it might even be possible to daisy chain a few in range of a Chronos, and have it resurrect a couple each turn possibly?

That starts to look like a lot of investment in one unit, but given the output and cost of 20 Hellions, might be worth it.

(It's a pity EF specifies it has to be used in the movement phase, otherwise there would be some ridiculous shenanigans to be had using 'Never stationary' alongside it... )


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/09 02:39:31


Post by: the_scotsman


 StrayIight wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Best source of mortal wounds is easily the VRB.
4+ to do d6 to multiple units. Then OFC the Whip Succubus probably comes in second. The PGL is pretty much an afterthought - units that get it for free why not take it. If it cost you points skip it.


The VRB is very impressive, but I think it pales in comparison to the potential of Eviscerating Fly-by on a big unit of Hellions... assuming you can keep them safe enough to keep using it.

But then again why choose? We can take the full spectrum of aerial mortal wound spam.


Can confirm with my test game where i got to use it on 15 hellions twice: Eviscerating Flyby feels ridiculously good.

I'm not even all that jazzed about the vrb. it's one use, deals 1.5mws to all units within 6" of a point on the battlefield (1 to characters). it has the POTENTIAL to take a big vital part of your army apart, but it feels like a Timmy piece to me. Big, impressive, awesome, but ultimately something an opponent who knows his stuff is just going to see and generally mitigate, leaving you with units spaced out such that you can only get one good target for the bomb and then maybe a couple more suboptimal targets.

the reason the flying hedbutt burna bomber is a potent competitive tool is that it's so dang reliable. You can aim the thing. You know EXACTLY how many wounds it'll do. this thing is uncertain. It might deal 6mw to a critical character and wipe them right off the map. More likely, it won't, or it'll hit them and roll a 1 for how many wounds. I think they're also too expensive to justify 2, which is basically what you'd want to bring to make them reliable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 harlokin wrote:
I've never used Hellions, and I'm very interested in how they do in practice.

Obviously, the concept of 20 Hellions using Eviscerating Fly-By for 10 MW, and then Invigorated By Evisceration for a 4++ sounds really fun, but I worry about the practicalities of keeping a unit with such a large footprint out of sight, and then using it at the right time.

Reavers seem a safer option in some ways, they are easier to hide, and have more options because of their ranged ability.


...why would a reaver be easier to hide? they're basically identical in terms of model size. If anything reavers are longer.

hellions aren't bad in any cult IMO, but they're especially good in test of skill, where you get them wounding most vehicles/monsters on 4s. Their glaives getting "1.33" AP up from zero really really helped them.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/09 04:15:06


Post by: flamingkillamajig


Audustum wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 StrayIight wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Best source of mortal wounds is easily the VRB.
4+ to do d6 to multiple units. Then OFC the Whip Succubus probably comes in second. The PGL is pretty much an afterthought - units that get it for free why not take it. If it cost you points skip it.


The VRB is very impressive, but I think it pales in comparison to the potential of Eviscerating Fly-by on a big unit of Hellions... assuming you can keep them safe enough to keep using it.

But then again why choose? We can take the full spectrum of aerial mortal wound spam.

How did I forget about those! Yeah dirty for sure. Though - they don't have aircraft speed. Just really fast for a normal unit. VRB is almost impossible to defend against. Plus I only have 5 of the buggers. Need more for sure to really try them out.


You want aircraft speed? Put Hypex on them, use the strat to double the effect of drugs and then Advance. Looking at 14"+4"+1D6". It's not top end aircraft fast, but it is bottom aircraft speed.


There's a cult obsession that makes hypex +4" base so doubled it'd actually be 8". Not sure if it's worth it but that'd be a 22" move without advancing and not considering charge. It's not bikes fast but it's still fairly fast.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/09 07:11:01


Post by: Blackie


 lessthanjeff wrote:


I'm a fan of the PGL on everything right now.



PGL is amazing if spammed in a list with several Dark Creed units. Otherwise it's a legit option but can be skipped; the only unit that should auto take a PGL no matter what is the 10 man trueborn squad as they hit on 2s.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/09 08:23:07


Post by: harlokin


the_scotsman wrote:


...why would a reaver be easier to hide? they're basically identical in terms of model size. If anything reavers are longer.



Reavers are less 'dynamic'; they are longer and narrower, which can be easier to hide.

There is also the factor that the Hellion units being mused are twice the size, to take maximum advantage of EFB; hiding 20 Hellions can be challenging.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/09 10:08:43


Post by: Eldarsif


 Xenomancers wrote:
Best source of mortal wounds is easily the VRB.
4+ to do d6 to multiple units. Then OFC the Whip Succubus probably comes in second. The PGL is pretty much an afterthought - units that get it for free why not take it. If it cost you points skip it.


I agree with the Voidraven. My friend plays triple VRB and on a good roll he can easily decimate his opponents on a good run. I know a lot of people underestimate the VRB because they just see 6" radius, but are surprised when the diameter is actually 12" and 12" is a large portion of the table.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/09 12:17:03


Post by: Amishprn86


 Blackie wrote:
 lessthanjeff wrote:


I'm a fan of the PGL on everything right now.



PGL is amazing if spammed in a list with several Dark Creed units. Otherwise it's a legit option but can be skipped; the only unit that should auto take a PGL no matter what is the 10 man trueborn squad as they hit on 2s.


I put a PGL spam list together, its -4CP, but I don't care about CP in the list TBH.

Spoiler:
Battalion: BH
Archon
Archon
Kabal x5: PGL, Blaster
Kabal x5: PGL, Blaster
Kabal x5: PGL, Blaster
Kabal x5: PGL, Blaster
Kabal x5: PGL, Blaster
Kabal x5: PGL, Blaster
Ravager: 3DL, PGL
Raider: DL, PGL, GT
Raider: DL, PGL, GT
Raider: DL, PGL
Raider: DL, PGL
Raider: DL, PGL
Raider: DL, PGL

Patrol: BH
Archon
Kabal x5: PGL, Blaster
Kabal x5: PGL, Blaster
Kabal x5: PGL, Blaster

Patrol Dark Creed
Haemonculus
Wrack x5
Wrack x5
Wrack x5
Raider: DL, PGL, GT, SP
Raider: DL, PGL, GT, SP
Raider: DL, PGL, GT, SP
Raider: DL, PGL, GT, SP


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/09 12:38:37


Post by: harlokin


Thay PGL list is hilarious. I'd love to give that a try.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/09 13:44:12


Post by: Xenomancers


 harlokin wrote:
I've never used Hellions, and I'm very interested in how they do in practice.

Obviously, the concept of 20 Hellions using Eviscerating Fly-By for 10 MW, and then Invigorated By Evisceration for a 4++ sounds really fun, but I worry about the practicalities of keeping a unit with such a large footprint out of sight, and then using it at the right time.

Reavers seem a safer option in some ways, they are easier to hide, and have more options because of their ranged ability.

I think 20 is a pipe dream. 10-12 will still be hard to work with BUT could actually fit in the places you need to hide such a unit to make it's ambushes. This unit will not survive dedicated fire so it has to be used that way.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/09 16:22:43


Post by: the_scotsman


 Xenomancers wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
I've never used Hellions, and I'm very interested in how they do in practice.

Obviously, the concept of 20 Hellions using Eviscerating Fly-By for 10 MW, and then Invigorated By Evisceration for a 4++ sounds really fun, but I worry about the practicalities of keeping a unit with such a large footprint out of sight, and then using it at the right time.

Reavers seem a safer option in some ways, they are easier to hide, and have more options because of their ranged ability.

I think 20 is a pipe dream. 10-12 will still be hard to work with BUT could actually fit in the places you need to hide such a unit to make it's ambushes. This unit will not survive dedicated fire so it has to be used that way.


8.5pts per T4 5+ 6++ wound. If your opponent doesn't have heavy bolters (the only common weapon in the game that I know of that's actually ideal to target them with) then I don't see how they're particularly flimsy compared to anything else in our army.

Most D2 weaponry pays for high strength and AP that will mostly be wasted, and most D1 weaponry will run up against a defensive profile that's basically 'orks but you only get one turn to target them before they're on you.'


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/09 17:00:25


Post by: Xenomancers


the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
I've never used Hellions, and I'm very interested in how they do in practice.

Obviously, the concept of 20 Hellions using Eviscerating Fly-By for 10 MW, and then Invigorated By Evisceration for a 4++ sounds really fun, but I worry about the practicalities of keeping a unit with such a large footprint out of sight, and then using it at the right time.

Reavers seem a safer option in some ways, they are easier to hide, and have more options because of their ranged ability.

I think 20 is a pipe dream. 10-12 will still be hard to work with BUT could actually fit in the places you need to hide such a unit to make it's ambushes. This unit will not survive dedicated fire so it has to be used that way.


8.5pts per T4 5+ 6++ wound. If your opponent doesn't have heavy bolters (the only common weapon in the game that I know of that's actually ideal to target them with) then I don't see how they're particularly flimsy compared to anything else in our army.

Most D2 weaponry pays for high strength and AP that will mostly be wasted, and most D1 weaponry will run up against a defensive profile that's basically 'orks but you only get one turn to target them before they're on you.'
Bolters kill them just fine at t4 and they are naturally t3. I'm gonna be rolling 2 dice every time for combat drugs cause it's just better most of the time but I can't guarantee the t4 that way. Even at t4 they are dying to standard anti infantry firepower at a very high rate.

For example a 10 man intecessor with Autoboltguns popping rapid fire strat in tactical doctrine is going to kill 8 of them without rerolls or their grenades. With rerolls and nades they will kill 15ish.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/09 17:05:05


Post by: Sterling191


Hellions are base T4.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/09 17:10:43


Post by: StrayIight


Giving them the toughness drug, doubling it's effect via the strat can put us to T6. Add a -1 to hit, and (if my maths is right) we're looking at around 8 heavy bolter shots to reliably bring one Hellion down.

12 shots if Eviscerating Flyby can be bought into play.

That's not too shabby actually.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/09 17:19:07


Post by: Sterling191


 StrayIight wrote:
Giving them the toughness drug, doubling it's effect via the strat can put us to T6. Add a -1 to hit, and (if my maths is right) we're looking at around 8 heavy bolter shots to reliably bring one Hellion down.

12 shots if Eviscerating Flyby can be bought into play.

That's not too shabby actually.


I get between 7 and 8 BS3+ shots with no special rules support. The 60 shot ABR Intercessor combo will kill 3-4.

Hellions arent quite Death Rider or Scarab levels of PPW efficiency, but they're not too far off.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/09 17:23:12


Post by: Audustum


So I give mine +2" Move drug and double it to +4". 18"Move is pretty good for helping to get them hidden and in position for eviscerating.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/09 17:45:37


Post by: StrayIight


Sterling191 wrote:
 StrayIight wrote:
Giving them the toughness drug, doubling it's effect via the strat can put us to T6. Add a -1 to hit, and (if my maths is right) we're looking at around 8 heavy bolter shots to reliably bring one Hellion down.

12 shots if Eviscerating Flyby can be bought into play.

That's not too shabby actually.


I get between 7 and 8 BS3+ shots with no special rules support. The 60 shot ABR Intercessor combo will kill 3-4.

Hellions arent quite Death Rider or Scarab levels of PPW efficiency, but they're not too far off.


Thanks Stirling, makes me feel better someone having gotten a similar result

What's nice is that they're well placed to be quite the boogieman in peoples heads. investing significant fire toward bringing them down potentially means ignoring that 20 man squad of Wyches, that 'Blenderella' or 'Stabrina' Succubus build, the Void Raven heading straight for your castled up units..

So many threats, so little bolter ammo


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/09 18:26:18


Post by: the_scotsman


Yeah, hellions were already the thing in my list that literally every single person massively overestimated what they were going to do (because, I mean, look at them) and targeted them rather than the transports filled with true glass cannon units.

Now that they're actually durable enough to take some decent hits instead of just crumpling like a wet paper bag and they are a real actual threat instead of a theoretical one that's greatly elevated by how they look, I'm a huge huge fan.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/10 13:28:54


Post by: Denegaar


Hey guys, I just came from my second game with the new Codex. I started a Crusade with my buddy that plays Blood Angels.
The game was an Incursion Mission, 50 PL each. And it didn't feel balanced at all. It was an "horizontal" deployment, allowing early charges.

He had a couple HQs, Choppy Marines for Troops, Sanguinary Guard, Bladeguard Veterans and a Dreadnought.

I had Kabs and Archon in a Raider, 10 Incubi and another Archon in a second Raider, 10 Wyches and the Succ in the third one and 5 Mandrakes for screening.

First Round
I go first, I put 7 wounds in the Dreadnought and not much else.
He sends the Guard and the Jetpack Captain to my lines to destroy my Raiders screened by the 5 Mandrakes. The incursors and the Chaplain also charge. He destroys one and the 5 Raiders. The Kabs jump down.

Second Round
The Incubi and the Wyches disembark. They advance and charge. The good Archon and the Incubi do the same.

It's been a blood bath.

10 wyches and the Succubus slayed everything in his deployment zone but a couple Bladeguard.
The 10 Incubi and the Archon murdered the Incursors, the Guard, the Chaplain and the Captain.

We didn't play the third round, but we agreed that we have to improve his list or change the way we play because that was a stomp.

- Should we play bigger games? Should we play with points instead of PL?
- Maybe I tone down my list a little? How can we improve his list?

Maybe Drukhari just destroy Marines now... at least the choppy ones.



Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/10 13:52:41


Post by: Tyel


I don't know about PL - but for better or worse I think you'll find most things built for combat will destroy most things (barring possibly Bladeguard, DA/DG Terminators etc) on the charge. If for example you were to hop out of your raiders and let all the Blood Angels army charge your wyches+incubi, you'd probably find they got squashed instead.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/10 15:10:08


Post by: StrayIight


I think, for what it's worth, much of your result was about the specific matchup.

I think we are very much a melee army now. It's where we do our best work. Our basic shooting - splinter rifles - hit ok, wound about half the time against other 'basic' troop types, and invariably then get saved (against anything with a reasonable save like MEQ's) as it has literally no AP.

Compare that to our basic melee unit, Wyches.

We've been handed extra tools in this codex that increase our ability in assault. Across just about all units.

Against Elite melee armies like Blood angels, you have multiple tools that force them to have no choice but to fight last. Our speed means we can utterly dictate who charges and where.

Quite honestly, a well built Drukhari list, might represent the premier assault army in 40k right now.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/10 15:49:02


Post by: Red Corsair


 Eldarsif wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Best source of mortal wounds is easily the VRB.
4+ to do d6 to multiple units. Then OFC the Whip Succubus probably comes in second. The PGL is pretty much an afterthought - units that get it for free why not take it. If it cost you points skip it.


I agree with the Voidraven. My friend plays triple VRB and on a good roll he can easily decimate his opponents on a good run. I know a lot of people underestimate the VRB because they just see 6" radius, but are surprised when the diameter is actually 12" and 12" is a large portion of the table.


I haven't really come across anybody that thinks the radius is too small, but I have come across legit good players that understand how to game it's footprint.

At the end of the day you can't just go by pencil and paper average numbers. It doesn't do 1.75 mortals to everything within 6" it's a coin flip if it does or doesn't do anything and trust me there are win big units and dud units. This is where smart players come in, they aren't going to put those blade guard vets next to their terminators and that chief apothecary for example, but give you a hard choice on which 1 or 2 you want to gamble on plus some secondary irrelevant targets like intercessors.

Then if you don't kill that chief apothecary he undoes most of that mines work on that other hard target.

You also pretty much have to drop the mine ASAP, especially if you go second, and much of the time that means flying off the table and losing out on it's other weapon systems.

I don't mind it, but I think at it's current price tag and random impact that can be further stretched by smart players it's definitely a gamblers choice. I can see using one to really mess with your opponents deployment and draw fire, or in poison tongue you could redeploy it for a better angle or protect it but I think 3 would be a massive over investment that would completely fall flat verse certain armies and remove a lot of your armies ability to play objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 StrayIight wrote:
Giving them the toughness drug, doubling it's effect via the strat can put us to T6. Add a -1 to hit, and (if my maths is right) we're looking at around 8 heavy bolter shots to reliably bring one Hellion down.

12 shots if Eviscerating Flyby can be bought into play.

That's not too shabby actually.


Also lets not forget hellions are infantry, meaning you can get cover on much of the units members easily which can be further improved by Hunt from the Shadows.

-1 to hit from dense or lightning fast reactions with a 3+ save from HftS and T5 that can be boosted to T6 verse specific weapons you might come against is actually incredibly durable for their points.

I managed to make 20 hellions work twice out of about 5 showings in 8th when they sucked and the terrain rules were harder, heck even the eviscerating FB was harder to use lol. I think 20 in 9th will at minimum burn your opponents fire priority. Remember there is victory in drawing ineffective fire from your opponent as well fellas.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/10 17:38:29


Post by: harlokin


 Red Corsair wrote:

I managed to make 20 hellions work twice out of about 5 showings in 8th when they sucked and the terrain rules were harder, heck even the eviscerating FB was harder to use lol.


You are a hero, mate


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/10 21:59:47


Post by: Red Corsair


 harlokin wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:

I managed to make 20 hellions work twice out of about 5 showings in 8th when they sucked and the terrain rules were harder, heck even the eviscerating FB was harder to use lol.


You are a hero, mate


Well even I had to admit my fortune and quit while I was ahead before that ratio got real bad But thanks I'll take it!


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/12 09:26:53


Post by: harlokin


Assuming the points are correct, and Venoms are just 10 points cheaper than Raiders, is there a good reason to use the former (outside of Poison Tongue and custom), or is it always worth trying to find 10 points to 'upgrade'?


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/12 11:08:42


Post by: Slipspace


 harlokin wrote:
Assuming the points are correct, and Venoms are just 10 points cheaper than Raiders, is there a good reason to use the former (outside of Poison Tongue and custom), or is it always worth trying to find 10 points to 'upgrade'?


I kinda like a mixture. Raiders are very good but I think there comes a point where the density of DL spam becomes too much and the extra splinter fire from a Venom can be very helpful in cleaning up the odd wound here or there before firing Blasters or DLs. Venoms are much better to use as throwaway charging units to hold stuff up too, because you don't lose a DL shot if you're tied up in combat and their weapons can actually help them out in melee too. The smaller footprint also makes them easier to hide. I definitely think we'll see much less Venom spam now (possibly none) but I think they still have a place.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/12 11:28:10


Post by: the_scotsman


 harlokin wrote:
Assuming the points are correct, and Venoms are just 10 points cheaper than Raiders, is there a good reason to use the former (outside of Poison Tongue and custom), or is it always worth trying to find 10 points to 'upgrade'?


with the -1 to hit they have close to equal durability, so really I'd just say 'if you have a need for one of the raider-specific extra rules ie splinter racks, or if you need to transport 11 rather than 6 dudes, then raiders make more sense, otherwise just consider the venom an alternate weapon profile if you want a raider that's more geared to anti-infantry'.

in dark tech for example, I think venoms make a lot of sense, idk whether a raider would work as well as it concentrates 2 of your super-liquifier squads into a single target.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/12 11:42:33


Post by: Blackie


Raiders are also helpful to add a few PGLs to a list that relies on morale bombs provided by Dark Creed models. Venoms can't take a PGL.

Raiders are also faster and Enahnced Aethersails doesn't work on Venoms. Greater transport capacity also.



Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/12 11:52:46


Post by: Amishprn86


Venoms are smaller and easier to hide, has innate -1 to hit, moves faster without the need of stratagems, and has more shots.

So they have good enough differences to matter.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/12 12:15:15


Post by: the_scotsman


 Blackie wrote:
Raiders are also helpful to add a few PGLs to a list that relies on morale bombs provided by Dark Creed models. Venoms can't take a PGL.

Raiders are also faster and Enahnced Aethersails doesn't work on Venoms. Greater transport capacity also.



Venoms are faster, aren't they? 16" vs 14"? You can aethersail a raider but otherwise venoms are a bit faster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Venoms are smaller and easier to hide, has innate -1 to hit, moves faster without the need of stratagems, and has more shots.

So they have good enough differences to matter.


Them being smaller is also a salient point. Raiders can make use of dense cover, though.

I think it's a toss up, personally, I think generally raiders are a slightly better point for point unit in general but venoms are still a legitimate choice in many setups.

the 10pts when it comes to a unit being 75 rather than 85pts is not something to scoff at either, it's an over 10% points difference to the unit, and I would say in general a raider is a roughly "10% better" unit rather than being night-and-day better.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/12 12:40:33


Post by: harlokin


Thanks for the inputs guys.

Now that Battlescribe has updated, I'm tinkering with some small (1'300 point) lists, and was wondering where to put my beatstick Archon...

a) In a Raider with 10 Obsidian Rose Trueborn, despite tha fact that they are intended as a long range fire platform?

b) In a Raider with my Succubus and Wyches, but requiring me to drop the unit size down to 9 (and thereby lose all special Wych weapons)?

c) Swap the Venom Drazhar and 5 Incubi are riding in to a Raider, and add the Archon, even though it makes that transport an even more tempting target?
.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/12 12:47:09


Post by: Blackie


the_scotsman wrote:


Venoms are faster, aren't they? 16" vs 14"? You can aethersail a raider but otherwise venoms are a bit faster.



Oh right, I wrongly thought it was 14'' and 16'' in favor of Raiders.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/12 14:10:03


Post by: StrayIight


I'd argue for Raiders.

They're quite a bit more durable for that extra 10 points. S5 has long been something of a 'break point' which many people have built around. T6 then, takes advantage of that somewhat. -1 To hit is largely a wash to my mind, as both effectively have access to it, and now that hit modifiers largely don't stack, you often get into situations where the heavy penalty (as one example) has already come into play.

Also, on any transport carrying melee units: Shock Prow! I'm not sure if I've missed something, or if it's flown under the radar a bit, but for it's cost, this thing can be ludicrously good! Against infantry, roll a D6 for every model in the charged unit, and if you roll greater OR equal to that models toughness, it takes a mortal wound.

It doesn't quite have the potential of eviscerating flyby, but against screens and infantry blobs it does some serious work! It'll even soften up a smaller group of elite infantry in what's generally a worthwhile manner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 harlokin wrote:
Thanks for the inputs guys.

Now that Battlescribe has updated, I'm tinkering with some small (1'300 point) lists, and was wondering where to put my beatstick Archon...

a) In a Raider with 10 Obsidian Rose Trueborn, despite tha fact that they are intended as a long range fire platform?

b) In a Raider with my Succubus and Wyches, but requiring me to drop the unit size down to 9 (and thereby lose all special Wych weapons)?

c) Swap the Venom Drazhar and 5 Incubi are riding in to a Raider, and add the Archon, even though it makes that transport an even more tempting target?
.


If it has to be a choice of A, B or C, I'd go with C. That Venom will be tempting anyway really, and a Raider will probably stand up to fire a little better. As he's a murder Archon he's likely best placed with a melee unit.

Option C is the only one of the three presented which doesn't seem to have you 'give up' something.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/12 15:47:21


Post by: Rivener


Shock Prow is cool and potentially very deadly, but there are limits on its usefulness. It takes place in the charge phase, so you can’t pile in before using it. That means you only roll dice on any models in the unit that you are in engagement range of- not every model in the entire unit per se.

If you tag the edge of a unit you’ll only roll 1-2 dice. If you instead barrel into the center of a big unit you’ll be better off, but it’s still only a 1” “aura” of MW dice.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/12 16:00:26


Post by: the_scotsman


Rivener wrote:
Shock Prow is cool and potentially very deadly, but there are limits on its usefulness. It takes place in the charge phase, so you can’t pile in before using it. That means you only roll dice on any models in the unit that you are in engagement range of- not every model in the entire unit per se.

If you tag the edge of a unit you’ll only roll 1-2 dice. If you instead barrel into the center of a big unit you’ll be better off, but it’s still only a 1” “aura” of MW dice.


It is still very fun to tokyo drift a raider into a whole unit of stuff and mortal wound the bejeezus out of it.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/12 16:17:39


Post by: harlokin


the_scotsman wrote:
Rivener wrote:
Shock Prow is cool and potentially very deadly, but there are limits on its usefulness. It takes place in the charge phase, so you can’t pile in before using it. That means you only roll dice on any models in the unit that you are in engagement range of- not every model in the entire unit per se.

If you tag the edge of a unit you’ll only roll 1-2 dice. If you instead barrel into the center of a big unit you’ll be better off, but it’s still only a 1” “aura” of MW dice.


It is still very fun to tokyo drift a raider into a whole unit of stuff and mortal wound the bejeezus out of it.


That's living the dream


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/12 16:30:03


Post by: the_scotsman


 harlokin wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Rivener wrote:
Shock Prow is cool and potentially very deadly, but there are limits on its usefulness. It takes place in the charge phase, so you can’t pile in before using it. That means you only roll dice on any models in the unit that you are in engagement range of- not every model in the entire unit per se.

If you tag the edge of a unit you’ll only roll 1-2 dice. If you instead barrel into the center of a big unit you’ll be better off, but it’s still only a 1” “aura” of MW dice.


It is still very fun to tokyo drift a raider into a whole unit of stuff and mortal wound the bejeezus out of it.


That's living the dream


"Shock PROW? i'm gonna use the whole boat!"


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/12 16:50:21


Post by: StrayIight


 the_scotsman wrote:


"Shock PROW? i'm gonna use the whole boat!"



Love it. That's pretty close to being a new sig quote right there.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/12 19:01:43


Post by: jivardi


 the_scotsman wrote:
Rivener wrote:
Shock Prow is cool and potentially very deadly, but there are limits on its usefulness. It takes place in the charge phase, so you can’t pile in before using it. That means you only roll dice on any models in the unit that you are in engagement range of- not every model in the entire unit per se.

If you tag the edge of a unit you’ll only roll 1-2 dice. If you instead barrel into the center of a big unit you’ll be better off, but it’s still only a 1” “aura” of MW dice.


It is still very fun to tokyo drift a raider into a whole unit of stuff and mortal wound the bejeezus out of it.


Now I have to paint my raiders in super crazy color shift or metallic colors with neon lights and other car bling and make them so glossy they reflect the table and terrain all around them.

Thanks.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/12 21:25:57


Post by: Red Corsair


 the_scotsman wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
Assuming the points are correct, and Venoms are just 10 points cheaper than Raiders, is there a good reason to use the former (outside of Poison Tongue and custom), or is it always worth trying to find 10 points to 'upgrade'?


with the -1 to hit they have close to equal durability, so really I'd just say 'if you have a need for one of the raider-specific extra rules ie splinter racks, or if you need to transport 11 rather than 6 dudes, then raiders make more sense, otherwise just consider the venom an alternate weapon profile if you want a raider that's more geared to anti-infantry'.

in dark tech for example, I think venoms make a lot of sense, idk whether a raider would work as well as it concentrates 2 of your super-liquifier squads into a single target.


Just to throw in another spanner you have to remember that raiders also have access to the PGL which would allow it to advance and use "never Stationary" and it also has access to aether sails.

I like this even more for dark tech as you can move a raider 29" THEN shoot your 12" liquifiers. Which is an incredible amount of reach, and even better you get to pack two squads (4 liquifiers) into that raider. I think that has more advantages then disadvantages especially given the long body of the raider as you can cover a massive zone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to go over some of that build stratagies

Raider with PGL
Squad A Wracks
Squad B Wracks

1. Move the raider forward, possible advance with enhanced sails. Shoot Squad A and B then the raider. Use never stationary to move 7" behind terrain/back etc.

2. Move Raider forward, again option to enhanced sails advance. Shoot squad A, then the raider. Use never stationary to move another 7" to next target then fire squad B

3. Move Raider forward, possible sails. Shoot raider, proc never stationary to move further 7" then fire Squads A and B.

It's an incredibly flexible package of units that also has two squads of obsec inside that your opponent needs to consider any time he shoots at it while it's near objectives.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/13 16:32:38


Post by: vaklor4


Just thought id tell ya guys about a neat strategy ive been using in my games!

For a really safe and easy deploy scarmblers, ive found mandrakes are top tier. Scout them into the center first turn and deploy, advanced them back second turn (preferably on an objective), third turn deploy scrambler in your home, then redeploy with their second ability fourth turn, and fifth turn finally pop back down in your enemy's home and deploy the final one!

Ive managed to pull it off every game, its essentially 10 points off 75 points of models.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/14 07:08:07


Post by: Scactha


Sounds like the perfect use of them. Nice work description.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/14 14:37:26


Post by: Amishprn86


Goon, wtf is that formatting....

Also All my lists so far has had 3x5 Wracks with 2 LG each, he only took 2 units, and I've seen some take 6 units of them, So i wouldn't say he "ordered LG Wracks".

Re-formatted it so you can actually read it ffs

Spoiler:
Patrol – Cult of Strife (0CP, 275pts) [Tolerated Ambition, -1CP]
[HQ1] Succubus: Agonizer, Adrenalight, Quicksilver Fighter, Free Relic – Tryptych Wip [60]
[TR1] 9 Wyches Hekatrix: Agonizer, Shardnet & Impaler, Adrenalight [135]
[EL1] 5 Incubi (80) [80]

Patrol – Cult of Strife (+2CP, 488pts)
[HQ2]Succubus: Show Stealer, Razorflails, Adrenalight, [WARLORD] – Competitive Edge, [Prizes From The Dark City – Dark Lotus Toxin] [75]
[TR2] 9 Wyches, Agonizer (15) Grave Lotus [105]
[TR3] 6 Wyches, Adrenalight [85]
[FA1] 14 Hellions, Hypex [238]


Patrol – Dark Technomancers (0CP, 1235pts)
[HQ3] Drazhar [135]
[TR4] 4 Wracks: liquifier, Acothyst W/Liquifier [60]
[TR5] 4 Wracks: liquifier, Acothyst W/Liquifier [60]
[EL2] 5 Incubi (80) [80]
[EL3] 5 Incubi (80) [80]
[FA2] 5 Scourges: 4 Blasters [100]
[FA3] 5 Scourges: 4 Blasters [100]
[DT1] Raider: Disintegrator Cannon, Grisly Trophies [95]
[DT2] Raider: Disintegrator Cannon, Grisly Trophies [95]
[DT3] Raider: Disintegrator Cannon, [90]
[DT4] Raider [85]
[DT5] Raider [85]
[DT6] Raider [85]
[DT7] Raider [85]


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/14 16:00:27


Post by: the_scotsman


Damn. Pretty varied list. Weird that I can look at tourney lists recently and not want to vomit even a little bit in my mouth.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/14 16:29:59


Post by: flamingkillamajig


We are definitely in an interesting position. I never thought dark scythes would replace dissies but I think I will use them that way. 12 shots on 2 planes with better void mine and some missiles just in case you didn’t feel fully satisfied. I’m not sure what obsessions I’ll use on my dudes but I’ve got some ideas.

I’m bummed my specialty obsession bloodbrides option is probably worse than basic incubi in most situations with anything that has more than 1 wound and isn’t infantry. I’ll probably go for covens with splinter cannons on venom but with enhanced sensory organs or possibly dark technomancers on the liquifiers. I’ll also probably go for dark lance ravagers. Not sure how I’ll run raiders but probably filled with warriors with splinter racks. We’ll see.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/14 19:35:08


Post by: Octovol


Interesting, competitive edge instead of precision blows on DLT razorflails? Anyone done the math for that? Seems like with 14 attacks 4-5 MW average + 2-3 regular would do more than just getting more attacks that inevitably get saved or dont wound.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/14 19:39:23


Post by: Sterling191


Octovol wrote:
Interesting, competitive edge instead of precision blows on DLT razorflails? Anyone done the math for that? Seems like with 14 attacks 4-5 MW average + 2-3 regular would do more than just getting more attacks that inevitably get saved or dont wound.


Competitive Edge and Razorflails is currently broken due to the way the two function together, allowing for up to 28 attacks in the best case scenario.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/14 20:40:58


Post by: StrayIight


Sterling191 wrote:
Octovol wrote:
Interesting, competitive edge instead of precision blows on DLT razorflails? Anyone done the math for that? Seems like with 14 attacks 4-5 MW average + 2-3 regular would do more than just getting more attacks that inevitably get saved or dont wound.


Competitive Edge and Razorflails is currently broken due to the way the two function together, allowing for up to 28 attacks in the best case scenario.


Indeed, the Razorflails Succubus build you see in this list is pretty much the 'Optimal' configuration right now. Certainly in a TAC list. Though you can only field it if you have a restricted Cult of Strife detachment.

It's also very likely to be on the wrong end of the upcoming FAQ.

With Precision Blows, you're generally better off with something like the Relic whip, as base damage is somewhat important for the procs. Flails & Competitive Edge is death by a thousand cuts. No individual attack hits hard, but there's just so many of them, the target is drowned by the output.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suspect this winning list might answer some questions about Hellion unit size, and what you can get away with.

14 strong with Hypex, you'd have to imagine that the idea was to get one fairly guaranteed/successful pass out of them, with the average of 7 mortals from Flyby being enough to delete a key character.

I suspect after that they're going to be erased as quickly as the other guy can manage - you certainly can't ignore a unit that can do that every turn.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/14 20:55:36


Post by: Audustum


 StrayIight wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Octovol wrote:
Interesting, competitive edge instead of precision blows on DLT razorflails? Anyone done the math for that? Seems like with 14 attacks 4-5 MW average + 2-3 regular would do more than just getting more attacks that inevitably get saved or dont wound.


Competitive Edge and Razorflails is currently broken due to the way the two function together, allowing for up to 28 attacks in the best case scenario.


Indeed, the Razorflails Succubus build you see in this list is pretty much the 'Optimal' configuration right now. Certainly in a TAC list. Though you can only field it if you have a restricted Cult of Strife detachment.

It's also very likely to be on the wrong end of the upcoming FAQ.

With Precision Blows, you're generally better off with something like the Relic whip, as base damage is somewhat important for the procs. Flails & Competitive Edge is death by a thousand cuts. No individual attack hits hard, but there's just so many of them, the target is drowned by the output.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suspect this winning list might answer some questions about Hellion unit size, and what you can get away with.

14 strong with Hypex, you'd have to imagine that the idea was to get one fairly guaranteed/successful pass out of them, with the average of 7 mortals from Flyby being enough to delete a key character.

I suspect after that they're going to be erased as quickly as the other guy can manage - you certainly can't ignore a unit that can do that every turn.


So an interesting idea I had was to take Precision Blows, Razorflails and Dark Lotus Toxin with Adrenalight. Gives better MW production than the Tryptych Whip though less regular damage.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/14 21:12:20


Post by: StrayIight


Audustum wrote:
 StrayIight wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Octovol wrote:
Interesting, competitive edge instead of precision blows on DLT razorflails? Anyone done the math for that? Seems like with 14 attacks 4-5 MW average + 2-3 regular would do more than just getting more attacks that inevitably get saved or dont wound.


Competitive Edge and Razorflails is currently broken due to the way the two function together, allowing for up to 28 attacks in the best case scenario.


Indeed, the Razorflails Succubus build you see in this list is pretty much the 'Optimal' configuration right now. Certainly in a TAC list. Though you can only field it if you have a restricted Cult of Strife detachment.

It's also very likely to be on the wrong end of the upcoming FAQ.

With Precision Blows, you're generally better off with something like the Relic whip, as base damage is somewhat important for the procs. Flails & Competitive Edge is death by a thousand cuts. No individual attack hits hard, but there's just so many of them, the target is drowned by the output.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suspect this winning list might answer some questions about Hellion unit size, and what you can get away with.

14 strong with Hypex, you'd have to imagine that the idea was to get one fairly guaranteed/successful pass out of them, with the average of 7 mortals from Flyby being enough to delete a key character.

I suspect after that they're going to be erased as quickly as the other guy can manage - you certainly can't ignore a unit that can do that every turn.


So an interesting idea I had was to take Precision Blows, Razorflails and Dark Lotus Toxin with Adrenalight. Gives better MW production than the Tryptych Whip though less regular damage.


That'd totally work. Definitely a viable build that would perform.

The reason not to take it, is just that you're competing with the Razorflails build discussed earlier, as obviously it too requires Dark Lotus Toxin. That and again, you're required to take a dedicated CoS detachment - you can't get access to Lotus Toxin otherwise.

Really, that's the reason why you see the whip alongside Precision Blows so often I suspect. That combo doesn't require the specific detachment investment, so is easier on those going with Realspace Raid lists and the like. Razorflails without the Toxin relic are quite anaemic.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/14 21:50:50


Post by: Amishprn86


Octovol wrote:
Interesting, competitive edge instead of precision blows on DLT razorflails? Anyone done the math for that? Seems like with 14 attacks 4-5 MW average + 2-3 regular would do more than just getting more attacks that inevitably get saved or dont wound.


If I remember correctly you get an average of 28 attacks with the combo. I've already seen it kill Gman, a 10man vet squad, and a Riptide.


Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's @ 2021/04/14 21:54:26


Post by: Audustum


 Amishprn86 wrote:
Octovol wrote:
Interesting, competitive edge instead of precision blows on DLT razorflails? Anyone done the math for that? Seems like with 14 attacks 4-5 MW average + 2-3 regular would do more than just getting more attacks that inevitably get saved or dont wound.


If I remember correctly you get an average of 28 attacks with the combo. I've already seen it kill Gman, a 10man vet squad, and a Riptide.


It's actually 14 and then 2 for each one of those 14 that's doesn't make it to the damage step. So if they all missed/failed to wound/were saved you'd get an additional 28 ontop of the 14 for 42 total.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 StrayIight wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 StrayIight wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Octovol wrote:
Interesting, competitive edge instead of precision blows on DLT razorflails? Anyone done the math for that? Seems like with 14 attacks 4-5 MW average + 2-3 regular would do more than just getting more attacks that inevitably get saved or dont wound.


Competitive Edge and Razorflails is currently broken due to the way the two function together, allowing for up to 28 attacks in the best case scenario.


Indeed, the Razorflails Succubus build you see in this list is pretty much the 'Optimal' configuration right now. Certainly in a TAC list. Though you can only field it if you have a restricted Cult of Strife detachment.

It's also very likely to be on the wrong end of the upcoming FAQ.

With Precision Blows, you're generally better off with something like the Relic whip, as base damage is somewhat important for the procs. Flails & Competitive Edge is death by a thousand cuts. No individual attack hits hard, but there's just so many of them, the target is drowned by the output.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suspect this winning list might answer some questions about Hellion unit size, and what you can get away with.

14 strong with Hypex, you'd have to imagine that the idea was to get one fairly guaranteed/successful pass out of them, with the average of 7 mortals from Flyby being enough to delete a key character.

I suspect after that they're going to be erased as quickly as the other guy can manage - you certainly can't ignore a unit that can do that every turn.


So an interesting idea I had was to take Precision Blows, Razorflails and Dark Lotus Toxin with Adrenalight. Gives better MW production than the Tryptych Whip though less regular damage.


That'd totally work. Definitely a viable build that would perform.

The reason not to take it, is just that you're competing with the Razorflails build discussed earlier, as obviously it too requires Dark Lotus Toxin. That and again, you're required to take a dedicated CoS detachment - you can't get access to Lotus Toxin otherwise.

Really, that's the reason why you see the whip alongside Precision Blows so often I suspect. That combo doesn't require the specific detachment investment, so is easier on those going with Realspace Raid lists and the like. Razorflails without the Toxin relic are quite anaemic.


I really like Strife and have been experimenting with just one Succubus. Thanks!