45130
Post by: fidel
As in title. Honestly if I was at the tournament - as much as it would piss me off - I would take the bite and go for 0-100 loss. How he was not DQ by TO's is beyond me though, and I have seen tournaments here in the US where people have been DQed for much less.
It goes without saying to please keep a semblance of decorum when speaking with one another. If I can get my middle school kids to debate politely - I’m sure adults can manage! I am actually curious about what people say in this situation - as an educator, as a historian, but also as someone who is part of the wargaming community.
https://wilbur.ghost.io/warhammer-nazis/
edit: Also was wholly unsure of where to post this - I assumed as it was a tournament it would fall under this banner. If not, apologies mods and if you could please move to appropriate location 
Also Edit:
From someone who was there:
 Galas wrote:The guy was a neo nazi and his group were all neo nazis.
And the opponent that took the photos, and actually made his presence known to the public, and his group, had a verbal discussion with those idiots.
They said that if they were offended, they (The neo nazis) had the same right to be offended if they where feminists or homosexuals.
I won't say the TO's were simpatizers with any of this ideology. But as all the time, this pieces of gak played the victim card, and said that they would call the police, to report that they were being discriminated agaisnt by their ideology (the irony lol) so with a 800 person tournament the TO's didn't wanted any of that gak.
I don't believe the TO's did the right thing. And people like this shouldn't be in the hobby. Not only because of their ideology, but because it is clear that they were going to cause conflict with all those symbols and clothes.
It sucks but is just a small portion of the present day political climate. This kind of people exist in our hobby. And this is the kind of people GW told they would not be missed.
127950
Post by: Flipsiders
If the TOs won't kick him out, the answer is to surrender and/or leave, right?
Tournaments obviously cost money and all, but 40k is supposed to be about having fun, and playing against open fascists isn't fun. Seems pretty open-and-shut to me.
97911
Post by: posermcbogus
Imagine unironically wearing the symbology of an ideology that believed political authority could only be derived from violent strength, only to get bodied in the only war it ever fought in, over 70 years ago.
Like, unfortunately these chuds exist. Unfortunately, GW doesn't try hard enough to make it clear that its setting lampoons and denigrates Chauvanism, extremism, dogmatism, exterminationism and militarism, and that gives people like this breathing space. Honestly, there really isn't much to discuss here beyond it's unfortunate that TOs didn't step in, but that kinda just degenerates into gossiping about individuals, which is a bit inappropriate, considering rule 1.
I think in this situation, the best thing one can do is report it to the TO, and refuse to play, and draw as much attention as one can to the fact that it is because someone is openly wearing clothing that celebrates (and I suspect, also funds, because you'd have to go out of your way to buy that somewhere pretty specialist) an ideology that actively calls for violence and murder. I respect calling the issue to attention of the community, given the TOs did nothing, but really there's little else to talk about here beyond
"Eww, gross".
Because that's all it is. And it's a shame.
196
Post by: cuda1179
I was reading about this somewhere else. There are two symbols on this guy's shirt. One is clearly a bunch of interlinked Swastikas.
However, the other symbol I'm totally ignorant of, and I've seen many people complain about it. I've never seen the circled cross with arrows through it. That's a Nazi symbol???
45130
Post by: fidel
 posermcbogus wrote:Imagine unironically wearing the symbology of an ideology that believed political authority could only be derived from violent strength, only to get bodied in the only war it ever fought in, over 70 years ago.
Like, unfortunately these chuds exist. Unfortunately, GW doesn't try hard enough to make it clear that its setting lampoons and denigrates Chauvanism, extremism, dogmatism, exterminationism and militarism, and that gives people like this breathing space. Honestly, there really isn't much to discuss here beyond it's unfortunate that TOs didn't step in, but that kinda just degenerates into gossiping about individuals, which is a bit inappropriate, considering rule 1.
I think in this situation, the best thing one can do is report it to the TO, and refuse to play, and draw as much attention as one can to the fact that it is because someone is openly wearing clothing that celebrates (and I suspect, also funds, because you'd have to go out of your way to buy that somewhere pretty specialist) an ideology that actively calls for violence and murder. I respect calling the issue to attention of the community, given the TOs did nothing, but really there's little else to talk about here beyond
"Eww, gross".
Because that's all it is. And it's a shame.
Hm I enjoy this response. Follow up question - do you feel there is more blame on the individual, or the TO? Say for example you refuse to play this person and the TO nets you a full loss - would you place more blame on the individual wearing nazi items, or would you place more blame on the TO?
 cuda1179 wrote:I was reading about this somewhere else. There are two symbols on this guy's shirt. One is clearly a bunch of interlinked Swastikas.
However, the other symbol I'm totally ignorant of, and I've seen many people complain about it. I've never seen the circled cross with arrows through it. That's a Nazi symbol???
I believe it’s a mixture of the iron cross and the three arrows. 3 arrows was a symbol used by the socialist Democratic Party in Germany. If anyone has more information by all means let me know.
196
Post by: cuda1179
Also of note, I think if we are going to ban people for their questionable political apparel, the tourney organizers need to make a blanket ban on most political groups, issues, etc. just to keep people from trying to push the envelope on what they can do. I can see many people of certain heritage taking offense to a Che Guevara shirt for instance. Automatically Appended Next Post: fidel wrote: posermcbogus wrote:Imagine unironically wearing the symbology of an ideology that believed political authority could only be derived from violent strength, only to get bodied in the only war it ever fought in, over 70 years ago.
Like, unfortunately these chuds exist. Unfortunately, GW doesn't try hard enough to make it clear that its setting lampoons and denigrates Chauvanism, extremism, dogmatism, exterminationism and militarism, and that gives people like this breathing space. Honestly, there really isn't much to discuss here beyond it's unfortunate that TOs didn't step in, but that kinda just degenerates into gossiping about individuals, which is a bit inappropriate, considering rule 1.
I think in this situation, the best thing one can do is report it to the TO, and refuse to play, and draw as much attention as one can to the fact that it is because someone is openly wearing clothing that celebrates (and I suspect, also funds, because you'd have to go out of your way to buy that somewhere pretty specialist) an ideology that actively calls for violence and murder. I respect calling the issue to attention of the community, given the TOs did nothing, but really there's little else to talk about here beyond
"Eww, gross".
Because that's all it is. And it's a shame.
Hm I enjoy this response. Follow up question - do you feel there is more blame on the individual, or the TO? Say for example you refuse to play this person and the TO nets you a full loss - would you place more blame on the individual wearing nazi items, or would you place more blame on the TO?
I'd blame the individual. A while back there was chatter about people intentionally tanking matches to screw with the opponent's score cards. Many felt that if someone forfeits the match, the opponent should get full credit for winning specifically to avoid this "gaming the tourney, not the tabletop" mentality. If the TO's had agreed this was the way things were to be, I would fully support them not changing the rules mid event.
85390
Post by: bullyboy
It's the venue's/TO fault.
You need clear rules barring such clothing prior to attendance.
If playing the guy, walk away, take the loss, and move on. It's the right thing to do.
I've been placed in a similar predicament previously. Working in fitness area of college years ago and guy comes in with sleeveless shirt, sporting swastika tattoo visible underneath parts of the shirt. Nobody complains, but I know for a fact that there are members in that facility who are concentration camp survivors and so I approach him and ask if he would cover the tatoo. I didn't try to throw him out, I had a discussion first. He was polite and stated that he didn't see why he should cover it while there are other members working out with known gang affiliation tatoos visible. At that point, I left him to his workout, contacted management regarding policy (was a weekend so nothing was done til following week), and the policy was simply changed to disallow sleeveless shirts.
so again, unless illegal, it's up to the tournament organizers/venue to create a clearcut policy. In the meantime, take the loss and move on.
Still feel the thread should be locked as I just don't see it going in a positive direction.
92803
Post by: ZergSmasher
I would argue that no apparel that makes any kind of political statement at all should be allowed, with the exception of national flags (of current nations; no Nazi German or USSR flags, for instance). Of course, then you have to define what counts as a political statement and that could get messy and tedious.
Edit: just saw that cuda1179 just said basically the same thing, sorry I missed it somehow  I definitely agree about this though.
97911
Post by: posermcbogus
fidel wrote:Follow up question - do you feel there is more blame on the individual, or the TO? Say for example you refuse to play this person and the TO nets you a full loss - would you place more blame on the individual wearing nazi items, or would you place more blame on the TO?
It's hard to put like a numerical kind of figure on it, or say one party is worse than the other. On the one hand, the TO is responsible for what happens at the tournament. If they want to be permissive about this kind of thing, and happy to foster the kind of atmosphere where wearing clothes that actively signpost someone's interest in prejudicial violence is accepted, and if they want to ignore complaints about it, then that is on them. But also, I think there's probably an active desire on the part of the wearer to agitate in some way. Those are some pretty clear, unsubtle insignia.
As a mixed-race person, I'd refuse to play this guy. End of. I wouldn't really want to be near him at all, but I certainly wouldn't be about to spend however long playing toy soldiers with someone who thinks these are acceptable clothes to wear in public, let alone to meet strangers in.
If the TO warns me that I'd get a full loss, I'd fully throw the tournament. It's not a tourney worth winning, if it's a tourney that's happy with this kind of behavior. TBH, if I complained, and they did nothing, I'd throw the tournament, and try to get my money back. Those two things in and of themselves are enough of an administrative headache for the TO that like, in a very petty way would be a win for me.
To be very, very real here - anyone who publicly wears clothing with imagery that evokes politics that not only advocate for, but in the past, have killed millions, is not going to be socially well-adjusted. I've not got enough free time to spend it with someone that way inclined, I have pretty little patience for people as it is. Automatically Appended Next Post:  ZergSmasher wrote:I would argue that no apparel that makes any kind of political statement at all should be allowed, with the exception of national flags (of current nations; no Nazi German or USSR flags, for instance). Of course, then you have to define what counts as a political statement and that could get messy and tedious.
Edit: just saw that cuda1179 just said basically the same thing, sorry I missed it somehow I definitely agree about this though.
I broadly agree with this. Like, I feel like very few normal, well-adjusted people have a wardrobe so stuffed with political memorabilia that they would struggle with a blanket ban on political stuff. But as a more general thing it shouldn't be too much of a stretch in a situation like this to say "I'm meeting strangers, maybe I should dress presentably and respectfully."
That said, I feel like it could probably pretty easy to draw a line between like, "Bernie Sanders seems like an okay guy" the T-Shirt vs like, a Rhodesian flag with a rifle under it. While it's all politics, there's a real difference between "political candidate I don't like" and "actual celebration of war crimes".
127950
Post by: Flipsiders
fidel wrote:I believe it’s a mixture of the iron cross and the three arrows. 3 arrows was a symbol used by the socialist Democratic Party in Germany. If anyone has more information by all means let me know.
As you said, the three arrows is a Weimar-era socialist symbol, so I don't know why a nazi would want to wear it. In fact, the titular arrows stood for the political groups its users wanted to "attack," one of which was actually Nazism. I assume the arrows here are something else; If I had to guess, I'd say they're trying to play off the fasces symbol somehow. It doesn't make too much sense, but intelligence isn't exactly a nazi strong suit.
I'd also be willing to bet the symbol in the middle is a stylized rune. Nordic stuff is huge in alt-right/neo-nazi communities for fairly obvious reasons.
96291
Post by: CragHack
All I can say is that I'm equally offended by anyone who paints a 5 pointed red star/sickle and hammer on his IG. Or the 'red gobbo revolushon', because we all know where they've taken the thing from.
117884
Post by: Duskweaver
FWIW, the five arrows arranged like that is the symbol of the Spanish fascist 'Falange'. They usually have a two-arched bridge superimposed over the centre, though. The sun-cross is an ancient pagan symbol coopted by many fascist and white-supremacist groups. I've never seen the Falangist arrows with a superimposed sun-cross before but, combined with the interlinked swastikas, there's not much doubt about the guy's affiliation.
Er... unless he just works for AK Interactive, I suppose... 
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
What a toolbox. That's the weird thing about Neo-Nazis (and let's be clear, this guy is a Neo-Nazi, not a Nazi; the Nazi's were defeated/wiped out in the mid-40's - all that's left of them are ancient camp guards in the 90's somewhere) is that they wear kinda-sorta-Nazi symbols (like '88' and '13 Words', that weird Swastika-via-tentacles from the photo and gak like that), but obscure them in odd ways so they're not immediately apparent as Nazi symbols*. If they were as proud of their repugnant ideology as they claim to be, then they wouldn't be hiding it. And if they're hiding it, why are they hiding it? Can't be because they secretly know they're right. They're just all cowards. *Yes, I know some Neo-Nazis are more overt than that, but the "Oblique Nazi Symbo" is a hallmark of those neo-spankers. [EDIT]: Oh, uhh... right. The topic! Yes. I don't think the tournament itself can be responsible for what everyone does, and beyond actually breaking the law, can a TO really step in to stop someone because of their behaviours? I mean, had this tournament taken place in Germany where such symbols are actually outlawed, then yeah, but the tournament can't police everyone. It's not their role, not their responsibility and, I'd think, not actually their right either.  CragHack wrote:All I can say is that I'm equally offended by anyone who paints a 5 pointed red star/sickle and hammer on his IG. Or the 'red gobbo revolushon', because we all know where they've taken the thing from.
"Reel Gobbo Revolushon azzn't been tried yet, yer stinkin' grot!" - Da (Next) Red Gobbo
121080
Post by: Sunno
Obviously this is NOT the case here but its worth pointing out that the Nazis and other regimes like Communist Russia/USSR, China etc etc have all adopted and warped the meaning of various symbols over time. I feel really sorry for followers of the Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism as the swastika is a key ikon in their beliefs. Its also worth pointing out here that the earliest known instance of a swastika is from 10,000BC found carved on a piece of mammoth tusk/irony. Well before the concept of German, Europe or Politics even emerged.
During the 1930 & 40s and also more recently, Nazi and Neo Nazi groups have been adopting and using a lot of Norse and Germanic Pagan imagery. Which is highly annoying for me as somebody who is interested and studies history and love those beliefs and cultures from early Europe. But I would never get a tattoo of many Norse symbols because they have been adopted by bad actors and groups. In the same way I would not put them on my miniatures, however much I would like to as i dont want to be misunderstood or have an argument about it.
Those players should have been confronted by the TO and probably DQ'ed. Actual Nazis and/or Communists and extremists of any kind, racists, sexist, homophobic etc have no place in the wargaming community.
I have never come across this at any games or tournament I have been to but as a WM/H and Malifaux player, maybe we don't attract them? Or maybe i have been lucky. Often wondered how WW2 historical gamers deal with this issue?
Regardless, its not "Soy" or "cancel culture" to not want to play against actual Fascists. If your not a decent human, you shouldn't be allowed in. Regardless of the game system you are playing.
109034
Post by: Slipspace
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
[EDIT]: Oh, uhh... right. The topic! Yes. I don't think the tournament itself can be responsible for what everyone does, and beyond actually breaking the law, can a TO really step in to stop someone because of their behaviours? I mean, had this tournament taken place in Germany where such symbols are actually outlawed, then yeah, but the tournament can't police everyone. It's not their role, not their responsibility and, I'd think, not actually their right either.
Of course TOs can step in. All TOs should reserve the right to remove anyone at any time (mainly so you don't need some 1000-page document detailing all the things you're not supposed to do). Anyone displaying neo-Nazi symbols or symbols of other deeply offensive ideologies can feth off and it should be made clear they're not welcome at the tournament, in the store, or anywhere else. Obviously the TO needs to actually be aware of the problem in the first place but there shouldn't be any problem kicking someone out for being a neo-Nazi. If your first thought as a TO is "hmm, there's no policy in place to eject this person" you need to get your priorities straight.
22150
Post by: blood reaper
He is wearing the Yoke and Arrows, which was the symbol of the Spanish Fascist movement, the Falange ( Falange Española Tradicionalista y de las Juntas de Ofensiva Nacional Sindicalista), and is commonly used by Spanish Neo-Nazis and Neo-Fascists. The Yoke and Arrows was traditionally a monarchist symbol and adopted by the Falange in the 30s. https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/e/es%7Dfal3.gif It has nothing to do with the 'Three Arrows', which was used by German Social Democrats and Anti-Fascists (and was, during its original use, also an Anti-Communist symbol as well). https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/76/Three_Arrows_election_poster_of_the_Social_Democratic_Party_of_Germany%2C_1932_-_Gegen_Papen%2C_Hitler%2C_Th%C3%A4lmann.png/220px-Three_Arrows_election_poster_of_the_Social_Democratic_Party_of_Germany%2C_1932_-_Gegen_Papen%2C_Hitler%2C_Th%C3%A4lmann.png The other symbol looks like the sun-wheel, which has been used by a range of different Neo-Fascist movements.
4042
Post by: Da Boss
I think not playing the person and informing the TO why is the right call, and I think asking for your money back and leaving the tournament is also a reasonable response.
To me this would extend toward any such violent ideology.
99475
Post by: a_typical_hero
H.B.M.C. wrote:[EDIT]: Oh, uhh... right. The topic! Yes. I don't think the tournament itself can be responsible for what everyone does, and beyond actually breaking the law, can a TO really step in to stop someone because of their behaviours? I mean, had this tournament taken place in Germany where such symbols are actually outlawed, then yeah, but the tournament can't police everyone. It's not their role, not their responsibility and, I'd think, not actually their right either.
Why shouldn't the host of an event not have the right to kick somebody out? If no dresscode policy was announced before the tournament and those symbols aren't illegal in your country, just hand the entry fee back to the guy and tell him to leave. What's the difference to other disruptive behaviour?
22150
Post by: blood reaper
Also if you want an idea why a Spanish tournie organisers probably had no issues with this guy playing, Spain historically was run by Fascists into the 1970s (upon which they were kicked out) and there remains a nostalgia amongst some of the populace for Francoism and such. Plenty of neo-fascists are in the ranks of the Spanish army, and de-Francoisation has often met with protest.
107707
Post by: Togusa
Sunno wrote:Obviously this is NOT the case here but its worth pointing out that the Nazis and other regimes like Communist Russia/USSR, China etc etc have all adopted and warped the meaning of various symbols over time. I feel really sorry for followers of the Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism as the swastika is a key ikon in their beliefs. Its also worth pointing out here that the earliest known instance of a swastika is from 10,000BC found carved on a piece of mammoth tusk/irony. Well before the concept of German, Europe or Politics even emerged. During the 1930 & 40s and also more recently, Nazi and Neo Nazi groups have been adopting and using a lot of Norse and Germanic Pagan imagery. Which is highly annoying for me as somebody who is interested and studies history and love those beliefs and cultures from early Europe. But I would never get a tattoo of many Norse symbols because they have been adopted by bad actors and groups. In the same way I would not put them on my miniatures, however much I would like to as i dont want to be misunderstood or have an argument about it. Those players should have been confronted by the TO and probably DQ'ed. Actual Nazis and/or Communists and extremists of any kind, racists, sexist, homophobic etc have no place in the wargaming community. I have never come across this at any games or tournament I have been to but as a WM/H and Malifaux player, maybe we don't attract them? Or maybe i have been lucky. Often wondered how WW2 historical gamers deal with this issue? Regardless, its not "Soy" or "cancel culture" to not want to play against actual Fascists. If your not a decent human, you shouldn't be allowed in. Regardless of the game system you are playing.
Someone on Reddit proports to have been at the tournament (this is also a problem for something I point out at the end) claimed that this guy was a priest in the Norse religion and made the "Austrian Painter" comment after repeatedly being harassed by attendees out of frustration over the ignorance of this persons religious beliefs and culture. Since I: A: Don't live in Spain and I didn't attend the tournament. B: Do not speak German, Austrian, or Spanish. C: Know nothing at all about legitimate practitioners of Norse religion or their religious symbols. I feel like I can't comment anything about this because I'm largely ignorant of the entire situation, only able to use what other strangers on the net have said based on given trust. Maybe the dude is a card carrying Nazi, maybe he's just part of a religion most of us know nothing about and was the victim here rather than the perp. How are we supposed to know, the damned Nazi's bastardized a lot of religious symbology that far predated their ilk.
22150
Post by: blood reaper
 Togusa wrote:Sunno wrote:Obviously this is NOT the case here but its worth pointing out that the Nazis and other regimes like Communist Russia/USSR, China etc etc have all adopted and warped the meaning of various symbols over time. I feel really sorry for followers of the Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism as the swastika is a key ikon in their beliefs. Its also worth pointing out here that the earliest known instance of a swastika is from 10,000BC found carved on a piece of mammoth tusk/irony. Well before the concept of German, Europe or Politics even emerged.
During the 1930 & 40s and also more recently, Nazi and Neo Nazi groups have been adopting and using a lot of Norse and Germanic Pagan imagery. Which is highly annoying for me as somebody who is interested and studies history and love those beliefs and cultures from early Europe. But I would never get a tattoo of many Norse symbols because they have been adopted by bad actors and groups. In the same way I would not put them on my miniatures, however much I would like to as i dont want to be misunderstood or have an argument about it.
Those players should have been confronted by the TO and probably DQ'ed. Actual Nazis and/or Communists and extremists of any kind, racists, sexist, homophobic etc have no place in the wargaming community.
I have never come across this at any games or tournament I have been to but as a WM/H and Malifaux player, maybe we don't attract them? Or maybe i have been lucky. Often wondered how WW2 historical gamers deal with this issue?
Regardless, its not "Soy" or "cancel culture" to not want to play against actual Fascists. If your not a decent human, you shouldn't be allowed in. Regardless of the game system you are playing.
Someone on Reddit proports to have been at the tournament (this is also a problem for something I point out at the end) claimed that this guy was a priest in the Norse religion and made the "Austrian Painter" comment after repeatedly being harassed by attendees out of frustration over the ignorance of this persons religious beliefs and culture.
Since I:
A: Don't live in Spain and I didn't attend the tournament.
B: Do not speak German, Austrian, or Spanish.
C: Know nothing at all about legitimate practitioners of Norse religion or their religious symbols.
I feel like I can't comment anything about this because I'm largely ignorant of the entire situation, only able to use what other strangers on the net have said based on given trust. Maybe the dude is a card carrying Nazi, maybe he's just part of a religion most of us know nothing about and was the victim here rather than the perp. How are we supposed to know, the damned Nazi's bastardized a lot of religious symbology that far predated their ilk.
Because he has a specific Spanish fascist symbol.
107707
Post by: Togusa
 blood reaper wrote: Togusa wrote:Sunno wrote:Obviously this is NOT the case here but its worth pointing out that the Nazis and other regimes like Communist Russia/USSR, China etc etc have all adopted and warped the meaning of various symbols over time. I feel really sorry for followers of the Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism as the swastika is a key ikon in their beliefs. Its also worth pointing out here that the earliest known instance of a swastika is from 10,000BC found carved on a piece of mammoth tusk/irony. Well before the concept of German, Europe or Politics even emerged.
During the 1930 & 40s and also more recently, Nazi and Neo Nazi groups have been adopting and using a lot of Norse and Germanic Pagan imagery. Which is highly annoying for me as somebody who is interested and studies history and love those beliefs and cultures from early Europe. But I would never get a tattoo of many Norse symbols because they have been adopted by bad actors and groups. In the same way I would not put them on my miniatures, however much I would like to as i dont want to be misunderstood or have an argument about it.
Those players should have been confronted by the TO and probably DQ'ed. Actual Nazis and/or Communists and extremists of any kind, racists, sexist, homophobic etc have no place in the wargaming community.
I have never come across this at any games or tournament I have been to but as a WM/H and Malifaux player, maybe we don't attract them? Or maybe i have been lucky. Often wondered how WW2 historical gamers deal with this issue?
Regardless, its not "Soy" or "cancel culture" to not want to play against actual Fascists. If your not a decent human, you shouldn't be allowed in. Regardless of the game system you are playing.
Someone on Reddit proports to have been at the tournament (this is also a problem for something I point out at the end) claimed that this guy was a priest in the Norse religion and made the "Austrian Painter" comment after repeatedly being harassed by attendees out of frustration over the ignorance of this persons religious beliefs and culture.
Since I:
A: Don't live in Spain and I didn't attend the tournament.
B: Do not speak German, Austrian, or Spanish.
C: Know nothing at all about legitimate practitioners of Norse religion or their religious symbols.
I feel like I can't comment anything about this because I'm largely ignorant of the entire situation, only able to use what other strangers on the net have said based on given trust. Maybe the dude is a card carrying Nazi, maybe he's just part of a religion most of us know nothing about and was the victim here rather than the perp. How are we supposed to know, the damned Nazi's bastardized a lot of religious symbology that far predated their ilk.
Because he has a specific Spanish fascist symbol.
What's it called? I'd like to do some research on it to learn.
28481
Post by: StraightSilver
I know that GW have official guidelines about this exact sort of thing - no "real world" uniforms or symbols, either on your minis or your attendees. This is written into their event packs and community guidelines.
However, at unofficial GW events it is up to the event organisers and I'm guessing in this case there were no such guidelines.
I don't know what the law is in Spain, but certainly if that event had happened in UK the offended players would have actually been within their rights to call the police, who would have insisted the player remove the offending clothing and leave the event.
But this widens up a bigger issue for GW.
This wasn't a GW event, but it is apparently one of the biggest Warhammer events in Spain and if it gets media attention you can guarantee most readers/listeners/viewers won't know that it's nothing to do with GW.
This is why GW updated its community guidelines but I think it may have to go further.
Magic the Gathering events have official marshals and I think if events are selling tickets using the Warhammer brand, which they must have done to identify to players it's a 40K tournament, then GW needs to insist on setting minimum acceptable standards.
"In a racist society, it is not enough to be non-racist, we must be antiracist" Quote: Angela Davis
And that should also include all the homophobes, transphobes, misogynists etc that have crept into the hobby too.
There should be a set of strict guidelines issued to all players and if a player doesn't follow them it shouldn't be their opponents that are penalised.
22150
Post by: blood reaper
Togusa wrote: blood reaper wrote: Togusa wrote:Sunno wrote:Obviously this is NOT the case here but its worth pointing out that the Nazis and other regimes like Communist Russia/USSR, China etc etc have all adopted and warped the meaning of various symbols over time. I feel really sorry for followers of the Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism as the swastika is a key ikon in their beliefs. Its also worth pointing out here that the earliest known instance of a swastika is from 10,000BC found carved on a piece of mammoth tusk/irony. Well before the concept of German, Europe or Politics even emerged. During the 1930 & 40s and also more recently, Nazi and Neo Nazi groups have been adopting and using a lot of Norse and Germanic Pagan imagery. Which is highly annoying for me as somebody who is interested and studies history and love those beliefs and cultures from early Europe. But I would never get a tattoo of many Norse symbols because they have been adopted by bad actors and groups. In the same way I would not put them on my miniatures, however much I would like to as i dont want to be misunderstood or have an argument about it. Those players should have been confronted by the TO and probably DQ'ed. Actual Nazis and/or Communists and extremists of any kind, racists, sexist, homophobic etc have no place in the wargaming community. I have never come across this at any games or tournament I have been to but as a WM/H and Malifaux player, maybe we don't attract them? Or maybe i have been lucky. Often wondered how WW2 historical gamers deal with this issue? Regardless, its not "Soy" or "cancel culture" to not want to play against actual Fascists. If your not a decent human, you shouldn't be allowed in. Regardless of the game system you are playing.
Someone on Reddit proports to have been at the tournament (this is also a problem for something I point out at the end) claimed that this guy was a priest in the Norse religion and made the "Austrian Painter" comment after repeatedly being harassed by attendees out of frustration over the ignorance of this persons religious beliefs and culture. Since I: A: Don't live in Spain and I didn't attend the tournament. B: Do not speak German, Austrian, or Spanish. C: Know nothing at all about legitimate practitioners of Norse religion or their religious symbols. I feel like I can't comment anything about this because I'm largely ignorant of the entire situation, only able to use what other strangers on the net have said based on given trust. Maybe the dude is a card carrying Nazi, maybe he's just part of a religion most of us know nothing about and was the victim here rather than the perp. How are we supposed to know, the damned Nazi's bastardized a lot of religious symbology that far predated their ilk.
Because he has a specific Spanish fascist symbol.
What's it called? I'd like to do some research on it to learn.
It's called the Yoke and Arrows. It was the symbol of the Spanish Falange, Spain's Fascist movement and ruling party from 1939-1977. A red yoke and arrows on a black banner were the the 'colours' of the movement. https://www.thepostil.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/joseantonio_derivera_.jpg A portrait of the Falange's 'martyred' leader, José Antonio Primo de Rivera, in a typical Falange blue shirt and carrying the Falange standard.
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Post by: Togusa
blood reaper wrote: Togusa wrote: blood reaper wrote: Togusa wrote:Sunno wrote:Obviously this is NOT the case here but its worth pointing out that the Nazis and other regimes like Communist Russia/USSR, China etc etc have all adopted and warped the meaning of various symbols over time. I feel really sorry for followers of the Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism as the swastika is a key ikon in their beliefs. Its also worth pointing out here that the earliest known instance of a swastika is from 10,000BC found carved on a piece of mammoth tusk/irony. Well before the concept of German, Europe or Politics even emerged.
During the 1930 & 40s and also more recently, Nazi and Neo Nazi groups have been adopting and using a lot of Norse and Germanic Pagan imagery. Which is highly annoying for me as somebody who is interested and studies history and love those beliefs and cultures from early Europe. But I would never get a tattoo of many Norse symbols because they have been adopted by bad actors and groups. In the same way I would not put them on my miniatures, however much I would like to as i dont want to be misunderstood or have an argument about it.
Those players should have been confronted by the TO and probably DQ'ed. Actual Nazis and/or Communists and extremists of any kind, racists, sexist, homophobic etc have no place in the wargaming community.
I have never come across this at any games or tournament I have been to but as a WM/H and Malifaux player, maybe we don't attract them? Or maybe i have been lucky. Often wondered how WW2 historical gamers deal with this issue?
Regardless, its not "Soy" or "cancel culture" to not want to play against actual Fascists. If your not a decent human, you shouldn't be allowed in. Regardless of the game system you are playing.
Someone on Reddit proports to have been at the tournament (this is also a problem for something I point out at the end) claimed that this guy was a priest in the Norse religion and made the "Austrian Painter" comment after repeatedly being harassed by attendees out of frustration over the ignorance of this persons religious beliefs and culture.
Since I:
A: Don't live in Spain and I didn't attend the tournament.
B: Do not speak German, Austrian, or Spanish.
C: Know nothing at all about legitimate practitioners of Norse religion or their religious symbols.
I feel like I can't comment anything about this because I'm largely ignorant of the entire situation, only able to use what other strangers on the net have said based on given trust. Maybe the dude is a card carrying Nazi, maybe he's just part of a religion most of us know nothing about and was the victim here rather than the perp. How are we supposed to know, the damned Nazi's bastardized a lot of religious symbology that far predated their ilk.
Because he has a specific Spanish fascist symbol.
What's it called? I'd like to do some research on it to learn.
It's called the Yoke and Arrows. It was the symbol of the Spanish Falange, Spain's Fascist movement and ruling party from 1939-1977. A red yoke and arrows on a black banner were the the 'colours' of the movement.
A portrait of the Falange's 'martyred' leader, José Antonio Primo de Rivera, in a typical Falange blue shirt and carrying the Falange standard.
Thanks, It's been a few years since college and most of the classes I took were on Russia, not the whole of Europe so a lot of Italian/Spanish fascist stuff is completely alien to me. I've my suspicion that the reddit claim is just that, a claim or attempt to create doubt in the readers over this. If the Arrows symbol is exclusively tied to Spanish fascism then it clearly has nothing to do with the mans religious beliefs.
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Post by: fidel
Ah super thank you! This is why I ask, because I love learning history/the usage of symbols. Now I have added this knowledge to the repertoire of other things ! Someone brought up another good point too: while it might not be illegal in Spain to don such symbols (very much like it is it illegal in America but illegal in Germany), it is definitely not a good optic for GW. This also comes as Warhammer is becoming wholly more popular then I have ever seen, with even WWE stars visiting Warhammer World (or famous actors posting their minis). While I understand GW having a rule banning those symbols for their official in house events, how could they prevent/ban (if even possible) those that are third party events? It should be noted this was not a small 20-30 man tournament - but rather a 700 person tournament that garnered world attention. In my opinion - all GW can really do is put out a letter condemning such actions - as I do not think they can strip “titles” like a sports federation can.
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Post by: blood reaper
Togusa wrote: blood reaper wrote: Togusa wrote: blood reaper wrote: Togusa wrote:Sunno wrote:Obviously this is NOT the case here but its worth pointing out that the Nazis and other regimes like Communist Russia/USSR, China etc etc have all adopted and warped the meaning of various symbols over time. I feel really sorry for followers of the Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism as the swastika is a key ikon in their beliefs. Its also worth pointing out here that the earliest known instance of a swastika is from 10,000BC found carved on a piece of mammoth tusk/irony. Well before the concept of German, Europe or Politics even emerged. During the 1930 & 40s and also more recently, Nazi and Neo Nazi groups have been adopting and using a lot of Norse and Germanic Pagan imagery. Which is highly annoying for me as somebody who is interested and studies history and love those beliefs and cultures from early Europe. But I would never get a tattoo of many Norse symbols because they have been adopted by bad actors and groups. In the same way I would not put them on my miniatures, however much I would like to as i dont want to be misunderstood or have an argument about it. Those players should have been confronted by the TO and probably DQ'ed. Actual Nazis and/or Communists and extremists of any kind, racists, sexist, homophobic etc have no place in the wargaming community. I have never come across this at any games or tournament I have been to but as a WM/H and Malifaux player, maybe we don't attract them? Or maybe i have been lucky. Often wondered how WW2 historical gamers deal with this issue? Regardless, its not "Soy" or "cancel culture" to not want to play against actual Fascists. If your not a decent human, you shouldn't be allowed in. Regardless of the game system you are playing.
Someone on Reddit proports to have been at the tournament (this is also a problem for something I point out at the end) claimed that this guy was a priest in the Norse religion and made the "Austrian Painter" comment after repeatedly being harassed by attendees out of frustration over the ignorance of this persons religious beliefs and culture. Since I: A: Don't live in Spain and I didn't attend the tournament. B: Do not speak German, Austrian, or Spanish. C: Know nothing at all about legitimate practitioners of Norse religion or their religious symbols. I feel like I can't comment anything about this because I'm largely ignorant of the entire situation, only able to use what other strangers on the net have said based on given trust. Maybe the dude is a card carrying Nazi, maybe he's just part of a religion most of us know nothing about and was the victim here rather than the perp. How are we supposed to know, the damned Nazi's bastardized a lot of religious symbology that far predated their ilk.
Because he has a specific Spanish fascist symbol.
What's it called? I'd like to do some research on it to learn.
It's called the Yoke and Arrows. It was the symbol of the Spanish Falange, Spain's Fascist movement and ruling party from 1939-1977. A red yoke and arrows on a black banner were the the 'colours' of the movement. https://www.thepostil.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/joseantonio_derivera_.jpg A portrait of the Falange's 'martyred' leader, José Antonio Primo de Rivera, in a typical Falange blue shirt and carrying the Falange standard.
Thanks, It's been a few years since college and most of the classes I took were on Russia, not the whole of Europe so a lot of Italian/Spanish fascist stuff is completely alien to me. I've my suspicion that the reddit claim is just that, a claim or attempt to create doubt in the readers over this. If the Arrows symbol is exclusively tied to Spanish fascism then it clearly has nothing to do with the mans religious beliefs.
I should also note that plenty of Norse and Pagan types are also Neo Nazis. There's a number of very good books on the subject, but groups in the US like the Asatru Folk Assembly are Volkish White Supremacists. Nordicism became popular in the movement during the 1970s.
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Post by: Togusa
blood reaper wrote: Togusa wrote: blood reaper wrote: Togusa wrote: blood reaper wrote: Togusa wrote:Sunno wrote:Obviously this is NOT the case here but its worth pointing out that the Nazis and other regimes like Communist Russia/USSR, China etc etc have all adopted and warped the meaning of various symbols over time. I feel really sorry for followers of the Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism as the swastika is a key ikon in their beliefs. Its also worth pointing out here that the earliest known instance of a swastika is from 10,000BC found carved on a piece of mammoth tusk/irony. Well before the concept of German, Europe or Politics even emerged.
During the 1930 & 40s and also more recently, Nazi and Neo Nazi groups have been adopting and using a lot of Norse and Germanic Pagan imagery. Which is highly annoying for me as somebody who is interested and studies history and love those beliefs and cultures from early Europe. But I would never get a tattoo of many Norse symbols because they have been adopted by bad actors and groups. In the same way I would not put them on my miniatures, however much I would like to as i dont want to be misunderstood or have an argument about it.
Those players should have been confronted by the TO and probably DQ'ed. Actual Nazis and/or Communists and extremists of any kind, racists, sexist, homophobic etc have no place in the wargaming community.
I have never come across this at any games or tournament I have been to but as a WM/H and Malifaux player, maybe we don't attract them? Or maybe i have been lucky. Often wondered how WW2 historical gamers deal with this issue?
Regardless, its not "Soy" or "cancel culture" to not want to play against actual Fascists. If your not a decent human, you shouldn't be allowed in. Regardless of the game system you are playing.
Someone on Reddit proports to have been at the tournament (this is also a problem for something I point out at the end) claimed that this guy was a priest in the Norse religion and made the "Austrian Painter" comment after repeatedly being harassed by attendees out of frustration over the ignorance of this persons religious beliefs and culture.
Since I:
A: Don't live in Spain and I didn't attend the tournament.
B: Do not speak German, Austrian, or Spanish.
C: Know nothing at all about legitimate practitioners of Norse religion or their religious symbols.
I feel like I can't comment anything about this because I'm largely ignorant of the entire situation, only able to use what other strangers on the net have said based on given trust. Maybe the dude is a card carrying Nazi, maybe he's just part of a religion most of us know nothing about and was the victim here rather than the perp. How are we supposed to know, the damned Nazi's bastardized a lot of religious symbology that far predated their ilk.
Because he has a specific Spanish fascist symbol.
What's it called? I'd like to do some research on it to learn.
It's called the Yoke and Arrows. It was the symbol of the Spanish Falange, Spain's Fascist movement and ruling party from 1939-1977. A red yoke and arrows on a black banner were the the 'colours' of the movement.
A portrait of the Falange's 'martyred' leader, José Antonio Primo de Rivera, in a typical Falange blue shirt and carrying the Falange standard.
Thanks, It's been a few years since college and most of the classes I took were on Russia, not the whole of Europe so a lot of Italian/Spanish fascist stuff is completely alien to me. I've my suspicion that the reddit claim is just that, a claim or attempt to create doubt in the readers over this. If the Arrows symbol is exclusively tied to Spanish fascism then it clearly has nothing to do with the mans religious beliefs.
I should also note that plenty of Norse and Pagan types are also Neo Nazis. There's a number of very good books on the subject, but groups in the US like the Asatru Folk Assembly are Volkish White Supremacists. Nordicism became popular in the movement during the 1970s.
I'm sure you've seen the pic of the guy, do you know what the other two symbols on his shirt were, overlaid on the Yoke and Arrows is some type of X or two crossed lines in a white circle which my google-fu is failing to find (Probably not the right terms for it) and the swastika pattern is really weird because it's something I've never seen.
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Post by: blood reaper
The symbol overlaid the Yoke and Arrows appears to be a sun wheel. https://reportingradicalism.org/images/featured/115/m_115_osnovne-hrafichne-zobrazhennia-symvolu.jpg This has been used by numerous White Supremacists over the years. For example, the 'British Movement' and the National Socialist Movement, small Neo-Nazi groups in the UK, used it as their symbol. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-OtXvB8auAao/UPb2cIoStfI/AAAAAAAAAAs/0CCbk7OeY50/s1600/Trafalgar+Square++1962+pic+1.tiff It might also be a Thule style sun wheel. https://www.thegreatcoursesdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Secret-Societies_The-Role-of-Secret-Societies-in-the-Rise-of-Hitler_QBS_thumbnail.png I have no idea about the weird Swastika pattern, but it's not dissimilar to some imagery used by Russian Neo-Fascist and Neo-Nazi movements.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Don't the KKK use that cross thing as well?
(I'm not about to look it up myself 'cause, well, y'know, 'the algorithm' might take notice)
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Post by: blood reaper
H.B.M.C. wrote:Don't the KKK use that cross thing as well? (I'm not about to look it up myself 'cause, well, y'know, 'the algorithm' might take notice)
The Klan use a variety of different symbols, so I imagine some groups do make use of it (though as a Christian/Christian Identity group, a lot of Klan types are eager to avoid the use of hostile norse symbols). They have their own icon though, which is a cross with a blood drip. https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/styles/max_650x650/public/images/combating-hate/hate-on-display/c/blood-drop-cross-1.jpg?itok=HaehI0bD
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Post by: posermcbogus
Hey, so I really appreciate the work here to educate people, and honestly think it's very important, but I can't be the only dakkadakka user who works for a nation's civil service and browses at work...
Could we mayyyyybe host the extremist imagery off-site, please? I've worked with people in the past who would deadass just delete every trace of themselves from this site without even having posted in this thread (...like I have lol) because of how much spooky iconography is getting posted rn. Like I know it probably isn't against the rules and whatever, so sorry for armchair modding, but like - McBogus watches out for McBogus's ass.
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Post by: The_Real_Chris
First off, National socialists bad - we had a war and everything to prove the point.
CragHack wrote:All I can say is that I'm equally offended by anyone who paints a 5 pointed red star/sickle and hammer on his IG. Or the 'red gobbo revolushon', because we all know where they've taken the thing from.
An interesting point. The Nazi one is because it is an actual outlawed organisation under an international agreement. This covers successor organisations though it gets a bit murky where other national fascist movements come in. Communism and Soviet communism isn't. So do you go with what offends people, or a strict legalistic one?
Being equally offended is an interesting point as well. Whilst the Soviets were also guilty of territorial expansion through war they didn't have genocidal policies based on ethnicity to the same extent (to be clear they did have ethnic cleansing ones though the Soviets didn't see ethnicity in quite the same way we do). How much of the current condemnation and legal framework for it is based on the war and how much the murderous policies is certainly debateable. In terms of wider offence if you are say a native American would you consider the American flag to be a symbol of genocide? What about flags of former colonial empires? Shirts feature the mass murderer Mao? People who are anti gay would complain LGBT paraphernalia is offensive. And at the extreme end if you have a fear of spiders someone could have an army that evoked your deepest nightmares!
So to have a policy of nothing political clothing or model wise, it is quite hard to define the boundaries of that and it would vary from place to place.
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Post by: the_scotsman
CragHack wrote:All I can say is that I'm equally offended by anyone who paints a 5 pointed red star/sickle and hammer on his IG. Or the 'red gobbo revolushon', because we all know where they've taken the thing from.
If you don't see the difference between lionizing an ideology and lampooning it to the level of pasting it on the literally individually weakest model in the game and portraying them as a mob of squabbling diminuitive ineffective goblins, then IDK what to tell you my dude, it seems like you're maybe a bit easily offended.
^Also, to be clear, I do own a gretchin revolooshun army, I do not and wouldnt put soviet symbology on them. The banner of my gobbos is based on the gadsden flag in this case "No Step Bad."
There is an obvious distinction between something that's both making fun of and lionizing an ideology, and moving far enough away from the real-world symbols that youre not reminding people overly of groups that may have killed their family members.
See: Literally all of the imperium of man in the game warhammer 40,000.
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Post by: beast_gts
Togusa wrote:and the swastika pattern is really weird because it's something I've never seen.
Someone commented this photo on the Goonhammer article - https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/312576fefe0290eb34b8fc852c5b9bb9e366af4d90941aa76ab8025382754854.jpg
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Post by: blood reaper
Looked up the Perun Company - looks like it's selling Azov Battalion (Ukrainian Neo-Nazi) clothing items and such, with modified Black Sun and S symbolism. Their description gives an indicator of their ideological slant, Company Sva Stone: Ukrainian production company founded in 2020 in Kyiv with a registered trademark.
The mission of Sva Stone: to be a leader in quality of cloths for ideological people whose time has come!
The principle of Sva Stone: Ukranian money to Ukranian hands for Ukrainian deeds!
The main activity: manufacturing and selling of sport cloths for youth.
The main customer: young sporty Ukrainians and Europeans, who prefer high-quality cloths of European production in casual style with an appropriate ideologic context.
The aim of activity: to increase quality of life of our customers everyday by offering them more qualitative and affordable cloths, by encouraging and supporting healthy way of life and basic European values.
I think we can confirm; this person is a Neo-Nazi.
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Post by: a_typical_hero
I mean even giving the biggest benefit of doubt here... no person growing up in Europe that received a basic school education DOESN'T know about the stigma that swastikas got thanks to former Germany.
Even if this guy is following a Norse religion and even if that symbol is 200% meant as an expression of belief rather than fascism... what nutjob would wear that in public.
Of course you know what you are doing here. And you do it on purpose. Live with the consequences of being shunned by society.
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Post by: Andilus Greatsword
People should have some common sense about how they dress and how people may react to that, if this neo-loser got kicked out of the tournament like he should have then it shouldn't have been any surprise why. These sort of situations go beyond blanket bans on political statements and more about general decency. I once agreed to play someone at a GW store and then realized that he had a shirt on that lampooned "I Heart NY" by changing the heart to a plane flying into the Twin Towers. Suffice to say I decided not to play the dude after realizing that because someone who puts on a shirt like that and thinks it's funny isn't worth my time.
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Post by: cuda1179
 bullyboy wrote:It's the venue's/ TO fault.
You need clear rules barring such clothing prior to attendance.
If playing the guy, walk away, take the loss, and move on. It's the right thing to do.
I've been placed in a similar predicament previously. Working in fitness area of college years ago and guy comes in with sleeveless shirt, sporting swastika tattoo visible underneath parts of the shirt. Nobody complains, but I know for a fact that there are members in that facility who are concentration camp survivors and so I approach him and ask if he would cover the tatoo. I didn't try to throw him out, I had a discussion first. He was polite and stated that he didn't see why he should cover it while there are other members working out with known gang affiliation tatoos visible. At that point, I left him to his workout, contacted management regarding policy (was a weekend so nothing was done til following week), and the policy was simply changed to disallow sleeveless shirts.
so again, unless illegal, it's up to the tournament organizers/venue to create a clearcut policy. In the meantime, take the loss and move on.
Still feel the thread should be locked as I just don't see it going in a positive direction.
I hate to say it, but the guy in your example did have a point. Known gang affiliation tattoos should have been long banned as well.
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Post by: fidel
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:People should have some common sense about how they dress and how people may react to that, if this neo-loser got kicked out of the tournament like he should have then it shouldn't have been any surprise why. These sort of situations go beyond blanket bans on political statements and more about general decency. I once agreed to play someone at a GW store and then realized that he had a shirt on that lampooned "I Heart NY" by changing the heart to a plane flying into the Twin Towers. Suffice to say I decided not to play the dude after realizing that because someone who puts on a shirt like that and thinks it's funny isn't worth my time.
"people should have common sense..." - imma stop you right there 
In all seriousness - I am wholly surprised that this was allowed - and even more surprised they docked the players for not wanting to play with the Neo Nazi. Also, the person with the tshirt about 9/11 - REALLY - how are people this daft? Why am I being wowed with the newest low 
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Post by: DominayTrix
fidel wrote: Andilus Greatsword wrote:People should have some common sense about how they dress and how people may react to that, if this neo-loser got kicked out of the tournament like he should have then it shouldn't have been any surprise why. These sort of situations go beyond blanket bans on political statements and more about general decency. I once agreed to play someone at a GW store and then realized that he had a shirt on that lampooned "I Heart NY" by changing the heart to a plane flying into the Twin Towers. Suffice to say I decided not to play the dude after realizing that because someone who puts on a shirt like that and thinks it's funny isn't worth my time.
"people should have common sense..." - imma stop you right there
In all seriousness - I am wholly surprised that this was allowed - and even more surprised they docked the players for not wanting to play with the Neo Nazi. Also, the person with the tshirt about 9/11 - REALLY - how are people this daft? Why am I being wowed with the newest low
Yeah an overtly real world political symbol with a massively negative stereotype is reasonable to refuse to be around. "I have a career and I do not want to put my family and/or future at risk because someone snapped a picture of me playing games with someone wearing a nazi jacket." The Taylor Swift Swastika scandal is a huge example where you don't even have to be the person wearing it to have it negatively impact your career.
Edit: How did they TO not ask the guy to leave or change his attire after multiple people refused to play him causing actual issues for the tournament?
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Post by: blood reaper
I am 100% going to suggest sympathises probably existed.
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Post by: Samsonov
On the topic of symbols being misappropriated (I am not saying this is happening in this case) I would love to get a tattoo of a Great War soldier, one of those outlines or silhouette which are commonly used in commemorations. This is largely because I have an immense interest in the period but it is too associated with patriotism and general right wingness, and I happen to be very left wing, so it is perhaps best avoided.
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Post by: Galas
The guy was a neo nazi and his group were all neo nazis.
And the opponent that took the photos, and actually made his presence known to the public, and his group, had a verbal discussion with those idiots.
They said that if they were offended, they (The neo nazis) had the same right to be offended if they where feminists or homosexuals.
I won't say the TO's were simpatizers with any of this ideology. But as all the time, this pieces of gak played the victim card, and said that they would call the police, to report that they were being discriminated agaisnt by their ideology (the irony lol) so with a 800 person tournament the TO's didn't wanted any of that gak.
I don't believe the TO's did the right thing. And people like this shouldn't be in the hobby. Not only because of their ideology, but because it is clear that they were going to cause conflict with all those symbols and clothes.
It sucks but is just a small portion of the present day political climate. This kind of people exist in our hobby. And this is the kind of people GW told they would not be missed.
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Post by: blood reaper
 Samsonov wrote:On the topic of symbols being misappropriated (I am not saying this is happening in this case) I would love to get a tattoo of a Great War soldier, one of those outlines or silhouette which are commonly used in commemorations. This is largely because I have an immense interest in the period but it is too associated with patriotism and general right wingness, and I happen to be very left wing, so it is perhaps best avoided.
I think as long as you don't have a phrase like "NO MORE BROTHER WARS" beneath it, you'll probably be fine. Automatically Appended Next Post: Galas wrote:The guy was a neo nazi and his group were all neo nazis.
And the opponent that took the photos, and actually made his presence known to the public, and his group, had a verbal argument with those idiots.
They said that if they were offended, they had the same right to be offended if they where feminists or homosexuals.
I won't say the TO's were simpatizers with any of this ideology. But as all the time, this pieces of gak played the victim card, and said that they would call the police, to report that they were being discriminated agaisnt by their ideology (the irony lol) so with a 800 person tournament the TO's didn't wanted any of that gak.
I don't believe the TO's did the right thing. And people like this shouldn't be in the hobby. Not only because of their ideology, but because it is clear that they were going to cause conflict with all those symbols and clothes.
It sucks but is just a small portion of the present day political climate. This kind of people exist in our hobby. And this is the kind of people GW tould they would not be missed.
I am thankful for an explanation of why the TO made the decision from someone actually there.
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Post by: godardc
Ok so by reading this thread I discovered that Warhammer isn't apparently for everyone and that Nordics and pagans are all racists because...they like Odin and runes (  )
This guy is wearing no identifiable (neo)nazi symbols (there wouldn't be 2 pages of explanations otherwise, none of the example provided being like the one he is wearing) and as far as we know, behaved correctly despite being harassed. Yet pictures of him are public on the internet trying to shame him... What a world.
a_typical_hero wrote:I mean even giving the biggest benefit of doubt here... no person growing up in Europe that received a basic school education DOESN'T know about the stigma that swastikas got thanks to former Germany.
Even if this guy is following a Norse religion and even if that symbol is 200% meant as an expression of belief rather than fascism... what nutjob would wear that in public.
Of course you know what you are doing here. And you do it on purpose. Live with the consequences of being shunned by society.
So islamic clothing should be illegal in public ? Since islamic terrorism made 9/11, Bataclan.... Shouldn't it ?
See, that makes no sense. If he was a real priest, it doesn't matter what usurpers did with his symbols.
In such a situation, I think the most basic thing to do, is to discuss with the guy, like in the fitness room example and why not asking him to remove his jacket and / or to lend him a new one. But at the end of the day, he didn't do anything bad or illegal, so I don't think there would be a good way to make him to go if he doesn't want to be cooperative.
Warhammer is getting more and more mainstream, which mean more and more people from all over society are getting in, and, as such, previously nonexistent problems are slipping into it too. I guess it's going to be more frequent especially that nowadays everyone is offended by everything
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Post by: Da Boss
Can you back up the claim that this was a religious issue? I think you can't but I am interested. Saw some commente that GW needs to do something about this. Not GW's biggest fan at all, but I disagree this is an issue for them. If it was an official event, yeah, but GW don't need to police every idiot in the fanbase and to do so would just get the idiots more attention, which is no doubt what they want. Best approach is nobody plays against them or deals with them at all.
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Post by: blood reaper
 godardc wrote:Ok so by reading this thread I discovered that Warhammer isn't apparently for everyone and that Nordics and pagans are all racists because...they like Odin and runes ( ) This guy is wearing no identifiable (neo)nazi symbols (there wouldn't be 2 pages of explanations otherwise, none of the example provided being like the one he is wearing) and as far as we know, behaved correctly despite being harassed. Yet pictures of him are public on the internet trying to shame him... What a world. a_typical_hero wrote:I mean even giving the biggest benefit of doubt here... no person growing up in Europe that received a basic school education DOESN'T know about the stigma that swastikas got thanks to former Germany. Even if this guy is following a Norse religion and even if that symbol is 200% meant as an expression of belief rather than fascism... what nutjob would wear that in public. Of course you know what you are doing here. And you do it on purpose. Live with the consequences of being shunned by society.
So islamic clothing should be illegal in public ? Since islamic terrorism made 9/11, Bataclan.... Shouldn't it ? See, that makes no sense. If he was a real priest, it doesn't matter what usurpers did with his symbols. In such a situation, I think the most basic thing to do, is to discuss with the guy, like in the fitness room example and why not asking him to remove his jacket and / or to lend him a new one. But at the end of the day, he didn't do anything bad or illegal, so I don't think there would be a good way to make him to go if he doesn't want to be cooperative. Warhammer is getting more and more mainstream, which mean more and more people from all over society are getting in, and, as such, previously nonexistent problems are slipping into it too. I guess it's going to be more frequent especially that nowadays everyone is offended by everything
He is wearing the icon of the Spanish Falange, the Yoke and Arrows. Another user has offered a further account detailing he is a Neo-Nazi. You have 100% wilfully chosen to ignore this because it completely cripples your entire argument, which is some kind of whataboutism about Islam or Muslims or something. No one claimed all Nordics or Pagans are Nazis or Racists. You are outright lying and misrepresenting previous posts.
45130
Post by: fidel
Galas wrote:The guy was a neo nazi and his group were all neo nazis.
And the opponent that took the photos, and actually made his presence known to the public, and his group, had a verbal discussion with those idiots.
They said that if they were offended, they (The neo nazis) had the same right to be offended if they where feminists or homosexuals.
I won't say the TO's were simpatizers with any of this ideology. But as all the time, this pieces of gak played the victim card, and said that they would call the police, to report that they were being discriminated agaisnt by their ideology (the irony lol) so with a 800 person tournament the TO's didn't wanted any of that gak.
I don't believe the TO's did the right thing. And people like this shouldn't be in the hobby. Not only because of their ideology, but because it is clear that they were going to cause conflict with all those symbols and clothes.
It sucks but is just a small portion of the present day political climate. This kind of people exist in our hobby. And this is the kind of people GW told they would not be missed.
If you do not mind I am adding this to the first post I made.
95191
Post by: godardc
blood reaper wrote: godardc wrote:Ok so by reading this thread I discovered that Warhammer isn't apparently for everyone and that Nordics and pagans are all racists because...they like Odin and runes ( )
This guy is wearing no identifiable (neo)nazi symbols (there wouldn't be 2 pages of explanations otherwise, none of the example provided being like the one he is wearing) and as far as we know, behaved correctly despite being harassed. Yet pictures of him are public on the internet trying to shame him... What a world.
a_typical_hero wrote:I mean even giving the biggest benefit of doubt here... no person growing up in Europe that received a basic school education DOESN'T know about the stigma that swastikas got thanks to former Germany.
Even if this guy is following a Norse religion and even if that symbol is 200% meant as an expression of belief rather than fascism... what nutjob would wear that in public.
Of course you know what you are doing here. And you do it on purpose. Live with the consequences of being shunned by society.
So islamic clothing should be illegal in public ? Since islamic terrorism made 9/11, Bataclan.... Shouldn't it ?
See, that makes no sense. If he was a real priest, it doesn't matter what usurpers did with his symbols.
In such a situation, I think the most basic thing to do, is to discuss with the guy, like in the fitness room example and why not asking him to remove his jacket and / or to lend him a new one. But at the end of the day, he didn't do anything bad or illegal, so I don't think there would be a good way to make him to go if he doesn't want to be cooperative.
Warhammer is getting more and more mainstream, which mean more and more people from all over society are getting in, and, as such, previously nonexistent problems are slipping into it too. I guess it's going to be more frequent especially that nowadays everyone is offended by everything
He is wearing the icon of the Spanish Falange, the Yoke and Arrows. Another use has offered a further account detailing he is a Neo-Nazi. You have 100% wilfully chosen to ignore this because it completely cripples your entire argument, which is some kind of whataboutism about Islam or Muslims or something.
No one claimed all Nordics or Pagans are Nazis or Racists. You are outright lying and misrepresenting previous posts.
1/ It has been showed numerous time, not proven. It's clearly a different one, but maybe you should take another look.
They even thought it was a Weimar symbol at first...
2/ it has been brought before me, a book even got quoted. Just get a single page back and you can even read the title...
I'm baffled, are you reading the same thread as me ?
22150
Post by: blood reaper
"It has been shown numerous times".
Yes because symbols have VARIATIONS. It is had a red yoke and arrows - a symbol, in Spain, near exclusively associated with the Falange movement. Are you seriously trying to suggest this is just some wacky coincidence?
Yes, and my previous post was that numerous (not all, which of course, you ignore) prominent Pagan groups had often possessed links to Neo-Nazi movements.
The sheer dishonesty is staggering.
116670
Post by: Ordana
godardc wrote:Ok so by reading this thread I discovered that Warhammer isn't apparently for everyone and that Nordics and pagans are all racists because...they like Odin and runes ( )
This guy is wearing no identifiable (neo)nazi symbols (there wouldn't be 2 pages of explanations otherwise, none of the example provided being like the one he is wearing) and as far as we know, behaved correctly despite being harassed. Yet pictures of him are public on the internet trying to shame him... What a world.
a_typical_hero wrote:I mean even giving the biggest benefit of doubt here... no person growing up in Europe that received a basic school education DOESN'T know about the stigma that swastikas got thanks to former Germany.
Even if this guy is following a Norse religion and even if that symbol is 200% meant as an expression of belief rather than fascism... what nutjob would wear that in public.
Of course you know what you are doing here. And you do it on purpose. Live with the consequences of being shunned by society.
So islamic clothing should be illegal in public ? Since islamic terrorism made 9/11, Bataclan.... Shouldn't it ?
See, that makes no sense. If he was a real priest, it doesn't matter what usurpers did with his symbols.
In such a situation, I think the most basic thing to do, is to discuss with the guy, like in the fitness room example and why not asking him to remove his jacket and / or to lend him a new one. But at the end of the day, he didn't do anything bad or illegal, so I don't think there would be a good way to make him to go if he doesn't want to be cooperative.
Warhammer is getting more and more mainstream, which mean more and more people from all over society are getting in, and, as such, previously nonexistent problems are slipping into it too. I guess it's going to be more frequent especially that nowadays everyone is offended by everything
Don't wear a hoodie or whatever it is with a 'totally not a swastika' logo on it.
The end.
That you feel the need to defend someone wearing 'totally not a swastika' and need to resort to 'but what about X' says a lot about you.
110703
Post by: Galas
Guys I know you'll probably take this out of context and get side tracked to the bigger culture war we are living right now. But this is not a case of "you need to ear the two versions of the story" or blablabal. A bunch of neonazis go with not-neonazi symbology in their clothes from an Ukranian company that makes technically legal not-neonazi clothing. They get in a heated argument with a rival group saying some nasty stuff. The TO's asked an actual police officer that was playing in the tournament if they could actually get in trouble for banning those neonazis and he said that yes, they could actually sue them for discrimination, and thats why they allowed them to keep playing. But theres no "maybe he was a priest" "maybe he was wearing symbols that represents his love for Rainbow Dash from my little pony" FFS. Sorry for the incoherent rambling, because right now I'm having a difficult time writting my toughts on the matter in a comprehensible way in english
22150
Post by: blood reaper
 Ordana wrote:
That you feel the need to defend someone wearing 'totally not a swastika' and need to resort to 'but what about X' says a lot about you.
He is 100% a sympathiser.
110703
Post by: Galas
And I'll ask for people to not think this is something common in the spanish warhammer hobby or to paint us with a broad brush.
This has been debated in most whatssap groups here and some relatively big personalities, like owners of some of the bigger stores in the country have come out to call out this pieces of gak.
22150
Post by: blood reaper
Galas wrote:And I'll ask for people to not think this is something common in the spanish warhammer hobby or to paint us with a broad brush.
This has been debated in most whatssap groups here and some relatively big personalities, like owners of some of the bigger stores in the country have come out to call out this pieces of gak.
I personally don't buy into the claims of some people in the hobby that Warhammer is filled with neo-fascists or neo-Nazis. I do find there are concentrations of people I would describe as sympathisers (and on occasion, cryptos). The problem is when one of these people is spotted, rather than people being worried over the sheer intellectual vileness of their beliefs, they say "Oh but they were polite!"
45130
Post by: fidel
Galas wrote:And I'll ask for people to not think this is something common in the spanish warhammer hobby or to paint us with a broad brush.
This has been debated in most whatssap groups here and some relatively big personalities, like owners of some of the bigger stores in the country have come out to call out this pieces of gak.
I hope no one is doing that - and I am super glad they are being called out over there!
99475
Post by: a_typical_hero
godardc wrote:Ok so by reading this thread I discovered that Warhammer isn't apparently for everyone and that Nordics and pagans are all racists because...they like Odin and runes ( )
This guy is wearing no identifiable (neo)nazi symbols (there wouldn't be 2 pages of explanations otherwise, none of the example provided being like the one he is wearing) and as far as we know, behaved correctly despite being harassed. Yet pictures of him are public on the internet trying to shame him... What a world.
So islamic clothing should be illegal in public ? Since islamic terrorism made 9/11, Bataclan.... Shouldn't it ?
See, that makes no sense. If he was a real priest, it doesn't matter what usurpers did with his symbols.
In such a situation, I think the most basic thing to do, is to discuss with the guy, like in the fitness room example and why not asking him to remove his jacket and / or to lend him a new one. But at the end of the day, he didn't do anything bad or illegal, so I don't think there would be a good way to make him to go if he doesn't want to be cooperative.
Warhammer is getting more and more mainstream, which mean more and more people from all over society are getting in, and, as such, previously nonexistent problems are slipping into it too. I guess it's going to be more frequent especially that nowadays everyone is offended by everything
Give me a break. I highly doubt it is a coincidence this guy is wearing at least two symbols which are slight deviations from commonly used fascist symbols. Was propably happenstance as well to shop the jacket from a niche eastern european company that is even writing in their own "about us" section what kind of people they are? And it was most likely the first time wearing those things in public as well, otherwise somebody would have approached him about it already to highlight these symbols COULD be misinterpreted? Yeah, what a world we live in.
It just looks like the usual cowardice neo-nazi behaviour where they are too afraid to make it 100% clear what kind of person they are. Instead you skirt around at the edge of legality by covering up your loNSDAle sweatshirt lol.
The guy is free to defend himself, innocent until proven guilty. But he knows what he is doing.
Your analogy is false. Swastika symbols are not similar to Islamic clothing. ISIS flags are. And you can bet that you get into trouble with people if you wear that openly.
42382
Post by: Unit1126PLL
blood reaper wrote: Galas wrote:And I'll ask for people to not think this is something common in the spanish warhammer hobby or to paint us with a broad brush. This has been debated in most whatssap groups here and some relatively big personalities, like owners of some of the bigger stores in the country have come out to call out this pieces of gak.
I personally don't buy into the claims of some people in the hobby that Warhammer is filled with neo-fascists or neo-Nazis. I do find there are concentrations of people I would describe as sympathisers (and on occasion, cryptos). The problem is when one of these people is spotted, rather than people being worried over the sheer intellectual vileness of their beliefs, they say "Oh but they were polite!"
I don't think the hobby is filled with neo-Fascists or neo-Nazis, but I do think it is filled with people who understand what is appealing about those ideologies. You can go on any discussion forum (here, Reddit, FB, whatever) and post something like "Virtues of the Eldar: they have and maintain a better quality of life for their people compared to the Imperium" and people will very soon fill it with xenophobic "HFY" (humanity feth yeah!) posts about why the Imperium is actually better and all mankind is better off and that the Imperium is totally justified in being as brutal and ruthless and bloody as it is. People who act that way are very much the types who see the appeal in being "Hard Men who make Hard Decisions in a Hard World while Hard" which is basically a shorthand for neo-fascism imo.
35310
Post by: the_scotsman
godardc wrote:Ok so by reading this thread I discovered that Warhammer isn't apparently for everyone and that Nordics and pagans are all racists because...they like Odin and runes ( )
This guy is wearing no identifiable (neo)nazi symbols
Dude, the pages of responses are pointing out that he's wearing the symbol for the SPANISH fascist party (you know, the one that was in charge of the govt in spain after the civil war there that kicked off WW2) which is, admittedly, less globally recognizable than the swastika....a symbol he was also wearing, albeit very slightly disguised.
The level of dissonance required to assert this guy is wearing no neonazi symbols is just amazing tbh.
518
Post by: Kid_Kyoto
A generic 'good taste' rule can do a lot, even if boils down to an arbitrary sort of 'we reserve to the right to eliminate anyone who violates community standards or draws the tournament into disrepute'.
You'll never find a way to write rules that bar neo Nazis, but can't be used by trolls to say 'what about that guy with the Che Guevera shirt'. You won't find a way to write a rule that allows DE and Slannesh armies but bars that guy with the diorama of IG sexually assaulting Eldar.
Common sense sometimes has to be the standard. I mean that's what we use when modding here.
4003
Post by: Nurglitch
There's something to be said for having a discretionary rule about how it's the organizers house and they can dis-invite you for any reason whatsoever.
45130
Post by: fidel
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:A generic 'good taste' rule can do a lot, even if boils down to an arbitrary sort of 'we reserve to the right to eliminate anyone who violates community standards or draws the tournament into disrepute'.
You'll never find a way to write rules that bar neo Nazis, but can't be used by trolls to say 'what about that guy with the Che Guevera shirt'. You won't find a way to write a rule that allows DE and Slannesh armies but bars that guy with the diorama of IG sexually assaulting Eldar.
Common sense sometimes has to be the standard. I mean that's what we use when modding here.
I am glad a mod answered - mostly because I like to hear their point of view as a mod of an online community that is mostly anonymous.
Also - damn guys keeping the decorum! Awesome!
5269
Post by: lord_blackfang
blood reaper wrote: I personally don't buy into the claims of some people in the hobby that Warhammer is filled with neo-fascists or neo-Nazis. I do find there are concentrations of people I would describe as sympathisers (and on occasion, cryptos). The problem is when one of these people is spotted, rather than people being worried over the sheer intellectual vileness of their beliefs, they say "Oh but they were polite!"
We kinda are in a hobby where the core premise of the setting is to purge anyone of a different race or religion or who has genetic abnormalities or who sympathizes with any of the above because they pose a threat to our lives and immortal souls. We shouldn't be surprised if the proportion of bigots is a little higher than in the general population.
30305
Post by: Laughing Man
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
You'll never find a way to write rules that bar neo Nazis, but can't be used by trolls to say 'what about that guy with the Che Guevera shirt'.
Sure you can. Just say "no Nazis."
112860
Post by: Thadin
I'd rather not have people around with Che Guevera shirts either, given the guy's views on homosexuality and black people.
320
Post by: Platuan4th
 Thadin wrote:I'd rather not have people around with Che Guevera shirts either, given the guy's views on homosexuality and black people.
Yeah, I don't get the worship the guy gets, he was a total PoS.
112860
Post by: Thadin
That set of communists, like neo-nazis, probably don't realize that their idols would want them dead. It's very strange to me.
107281
Post by: LunarSol
It has almost nothing to do with the man and everything to do with a cool picture someone took of him.
518
Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Laughing Man wrote: Kid_Kyoto wrote:
You'll never find a way to write rules that bar neo Nazis, but can't be used by trolls to say 'what about that guy with the Che Guevera shirt'.
Sure you can. Just say "no Nazis."
Thadin wrote:I'd rather not have people around with Che Guevera shirts either, given the guy's views on homosexuality and black people.
And there we go.
Ultimately legalism is not a solution. Even 'no politics' is not a solution as nearly anything can have a political subtext.
Community standards and reputation are a bit more reliable. There's a world of difference between a MAGA hat and a deep fake video of the former president shooting reporters in the face. There's a difference between the common Che Guevera shirt and picture of good communists bayoneting landlords.
I mentioned a sexual assault diorama before, since that was something actually posted here. While 40k is at times R rated, and certainly in bad taste even in this game there are red lines. An Inquisitor yelling purge the heretics is an established part of the game universe. And when heretics sometimes turn into King Kong sized demons and start drinking blood the Inquisitor has a bit of a point.
But a diorama of an Inquisitor sending heretics into a prison camp with the phrase "Work will make you free"... yeah. No.
(A diorama of Chaos cultists liberating that camp however... that would be interesting and would clearly not be an endorsement of genocide.)
There was a bloodthirster years ago, converted to have oversized genitals and it was banned from a painting competition, while I imagine a bare breasted Daemonette would not be. And while a college seminar would get a lively discussion of double standards in Anglo-American culture, that ain't the job of TO, painting contest organizer or board mod. We just live in this culture, you want to challenge the existing paradigm go do it on your own time.
112860
Post by: Thadin
I agree that it's a difficult situation to try and blanket ban problematic things, given the amount of subtle symbols around that could mean something, when presented with a context or things like that. That's not to say the situation within this thread is at all subtle, I'm meaning in a more general sense.
People can argue til the cows come home that their views aren't political, especially I've seen with communism, that it's human rights and therefor, not political. The neo-nazis tend to deflect and obfuscate. Both kinds of things, don't have a place in gatherings of varied individuals attending a Warhammer event. And unfortunately it requires a savy individual or team of individuals to suss out who is actually dog-whistling at events, displaying political beliefs, etc etc, if someone is being accused by another individual or group.
7075
Post by: chaos0xomega
CragHack wrote:Or the 'red gobbo revolushon', because we all know where they've taken the thing from.
From GorkaMorka. Its literally official GW lore and has been for about 30 years. blood reaper wrote:Also if you want an idea why a Spanish tournie organisers probably had no issues with this guy playing, Spain historically was run by Fascists into the 1970s (upon which they were kicked out) and there remains a nostalgia amongst some of the populace for Francoism and such. Plenty of neo-fascists are in the ranks of the Spanish army, and de-Francoisation has often met with protest.
Yes, Franco was the "successful" Fascist and there is greater tolerance of his and adjacent ideologies as a result of that. Togusa wrote: Someone on Reddit proports to have been at the tournament (this is also a problem for something I point out at the end) claimed that this guy was a priest in the Norse religion and made the "Austrian Painter" comment after repeatedly being harassed by attendees out of frustration over the ignorance of this persons religious beliefs and culture. Since I: A: Don't live in Spain and I didn't attend the tournament. B: Do not speak German, Austrian, or Spanish. C: Know nothing at all about legitimate practitioners of Norse religion or their religious symbols. I feel like I can't comment anything about this because I'm largely ignorant of the entire situation, only able to use what other strangers on the net have said based on given trust. Maybe the dude is a card carrying Nazi, maybe he's just part of a religion most of us know nothing about and was the victim here rather than the perp. How are we supposed to know, the damned Nazi's bastardized a lot of religious symbology that far predated their ilk.
load of bs, its the same excuses and cover these donkey-caves always use when they get called out on it, and people fall for it and use it to protect these dudes and try to spin them into victimhood. (see also godardc's post) I know actual norse pagan/heathen Gothis and Gydhjas, these are not the symbols they use, and while there is no central authority regionally./nationally/internationally, all the neopagan/heathen communities out there that *dont* have a racially motivated ideological bent purposefully avoid the use of symbols like this because of their very real connotations with nazi/fascist belief. When they do use what I'll call "nazi adjacent" imagery, they often go to great pains to attempt to differentiate them from those used by these racist groups, usually by making them more ornate and traditional looking instead of the bold solid blocks of colors you see here. In this case he's wearing a white power cross/sun wheel (which in certain stylistic interpretations is a norse symbol) superimposed on the arrows of the spanish falangists (those arrows are very much *not* a norse/pagan symbol), and then the symbol on his jacket appears to be the thundercross or firecross which is basically a swastika of swastikas and is more common in latvia/the baltic states than among norse pagans - the fact that its set within a shield speaks that hes a "defender" (i.e. a militant or an extremist) rather than simply someone observing their faith. The mixed use of nordic and baltic symbols itself makes a pretty strong case that this is not someone "of the faith". The fact that the clothing is made by a known "ideological clothing brand" (as they call themselves) based out of Ukraine makes it all the more obvious. lol thats a known neonazi clothing brand based in Ukraine. From their website: "The mission of Sva Stone: to be a leader in quality of cloths for ideological people whose time has come!" "The main customer: young sporty Ukrainians and Europeans, who prefer high-quality cloths of European production in casual style with an appropriate ideologic context. The aim of activity: to increase quality of life of our customers everyday by offering them more qualitative and affordable cloths, by encouraging and supporting healthy way of life and basic European values." "The legend: Mother-Sva beats her wings and calls us to stand up for our land because we are Warriors! Stands on the Stone where runes of our victories are carved. Weaves a lace of the destiny of our Nation. Hardens steel for us to make our armor. Let these cloths protect you and inspire in a battle, warm you up in winter and chill in summer. Let these cloths be your armor as noble and strong as the knights from the glorious past had. We put our souls into it. Mother-Sva beats her wings…" Sorry for the incoherent rambling, because right now I'm having a difficult time writting my toughts on the matter in a comprehensible way in english
hardly incoherent, pretty well said and straightforward. Thank you.
99
Post by: insaniak
Kid_Kyoto wrote:A generic 'good taste' rule can do a lot, even if boils down to an arbitrary sort of 'we reserve to the right to eliminate anyone who violates community standards or draws the tournament into disrepute'.
You'll never find a way to write rules that bar neo Nazis, but can't be used by trolls to say 'what about that guy with the Che Guevera shirt'. You won't find a way to write a rule that allows DE and Slannesh armies but bars that guy with the diorama of IG sexually assaulting Eldar.
Common sense sometimes has to be the standard. I mean that's what we use when modding here.
Some of the local tournaments around here used to have a primary 'Don't be a Dick' rule in their rules packages, which gave them a fair amount of latitude when it came to dealing with inappropriate behaviour.
122350
Post by: Cronch
N*zis (nothing neo about these pieces of digestive byproduct) do love to try and muddle the waters. It's always "I'm just really into autobahn building!" or some other nonsense.
These symbols have obvious associations that they're intended to evoke, even if, by some miracle the person wasn't an actual n*zi, he's a miserable troll intending to stir faeces at the event.
There's no need for mealy-mouthed "well if you ban one idology you have to ban the others" because ONE of the ideologies has outright genocide in it's political program.
I've known a number of norse-flavored pagans (basically impossible not to if you study anything history related), strangely none of them felt the need to deck themselves out in n*zi-adjecent symbols.
99
Post by: insaniak
posermcbogus wrote:Hey, so I really appreciate the work here to educate people, and honestly think it's very important, but I can't be the only dakkadakka user who works for a nation's civil service and browses at work...
Could we mayyyyybe host the extremist imagery off-site, please? I've worked with people in the past who would deadass just delete every trace of themselves from this site without even having posted in this thread (...like I have lol) because of how much spooky iconography is getting posted rn. Like I know it probably isn't against the rules and whatever, so sorry for armchair modding, but like - McBogus watches out for McBogus's ass.
I've gone through the thread and switched any hotlinked images to links. If we could all do that moving forward, that would be appreciated... that way at least people are only winding up with the images on their screen for a casual workmate passing by to see if they actually click on the link. 
125976
Post by: yukishiro1
Should 100% have been kicked out. Doesn't matter the impact on the rest of the tournament. Doesn't matter if they had any explicit rules against it. Let them call the police and complain about being discriminated against if they really want to (though that is clearly just a ridiculous empty threat).
Unfortunately that event was apparently a bit of a cluster for all sorts of reasons, this being just one of them.
112860
Post by: Thadin
I'm almost hesitant to weight in on this...
But Cronch, you do know that every communist in power has committed genocide, right?
30305
Post by: Laughing Man
Thadin wrote:I'm almost hesitant to weight in on this...
But Cronch, you do know that every communist in power has committed genocide, right?
So has pretty much every capitalist nation. Let's not distract from the folks actively advocating for the extermination of entire religious and ethnic groups, kay?
71876
Post by: Rihgu
Yea there is a big difference between
"I am X thing and also perform/performed genocide"
and
"I am Y thing, which explicitly calls for and demands genocide"
112860
Post by: Thadin
The topic was not about this specific instance in the subject of this thread, but a sub-topic brought up about dictating what sorts of clothing should or should not be permitted in the wargaming hobby.
Advocation of either ideology should not be permitted in tournaments, hobby stores, any public space.
It just so happened that every communist was all about that genocide and killed people of difference races, non-straight orientations and religions, en masse.
30305
Post by: Laughing Man
Thadin wrote:The topic was not about this specific instance in the subject of this thread, but a sub-topic brought up about dictating what sorts of clothing should or should not be permitted in the wargaming hobby.
Advocation of either ideology should not be permitted in tournaments, hobby stores, any public space.
If you're going to argue against advocating for capitalism, you might find it difficult in hobby stores, tournaments, and most other public spaces.
99
Post by: insaniak
The thread has done a pretty good job of sticking to the topic so far. Let's not stray into discussions of which political system is worse, m'kay?
518
Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Mods, TOs etc ain't judges in a court of law.
We're bouncers in a bar.
We spot trouble, we show trouble the door.
"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.
127950
Post by: Flipsiders
 Unit1126PLL wrote: blood reaper wrote:I personally don't buy into the claims of some people in the hobby that Warhammer is filled with neo-fascists or neo-Nazis. I do find there are concentrations of people I would describe as sympathisers (and on occasion, cryptos). The problem is when one of these people is spotted, rather than people being worried over the sheer intellectual vileness of their beliefs, they say "Oh but they were polite!"
I don't think the hobby is filled with neo-Fascists or neo-Nazis, but I do think it is filled with people who understand what is appealing about those ideologies.
You can go on any discussion forum (here, Reddit, FB, whatever) and post something like "Virtues of the Eldar: they have and maintain a better quality of life for their people compared to the Imperium" and people will very soon fill it with xenophobic "HFY" (humanity feth yeah!) posts about why the Imperium is actually better and all mankind is better off and that the Imperium is totally justified in being as brutal and ruthless and bloody as it is.
People who act that way are very much the types who see the appeal in being "Hard Men who make Hard Decisions in a Hard World while Hard" which is basically a shorthand for neo-fascism imo.
This idea in particular ties into a lot of the more pernicious parts of Warhammer and its community.
I've been mostly avoiding discussion about the recent Black Templar release and BT discussions in general. Don't get me wrong: I think BTs are cool, and are a healthy edition to the setting with a lot of very famous and very beautiful sculpts. However, they are by far the most blatantly fascist-inspired faction or subfaction Games Workshop has ever produced, and that fact makes me very uncomfortable around some of their fans.
Obviously, every BT player I've seen on Dakka is a normal, politically acceptable individual, and there is of course nothing wrong with playing as the bad guys in a miniature game where most of the factions are also bad guys. The issue for me is that when I see someone I don't know talking about their love for the Christian-coded, militaristic, heavily armed, and overtly hypermasculine army of right-wing extremists with their knockoff iron cross logo and black, white, and red color scheme, It's hard for me to be sure if they're a fan of them as political commentary or for "other reasons." The Imperium in general has this problem to an extent, but the BTs are pretty blatant with their fascist imagery and that fact combined with their tenuous association with the setting's "good guys" draws in a certain crowd pretty easily.
I think this is one of the big reasons GW in particular has been having such a problem with Nazi fan communities. As the article in the OP says, the issue isn't just that there are neo-nazi Warhammer fans or fan communities: The "Warhammer Nazi" is a very specific and recognizable person who I've seen even people outside the 40k community make remarks about. It's the big issue of satire which was mentioned earlier in the thread. Not everyone is going to get that the Black Templars are the bad guys, and the kinds of people who won't get that will nearly universally play Black Templars.
I'm honestly not sure how GW could solve this problem without getting rid of a big part of 40k's legacy and appeal, and I'm open to other takes on this subject from everyone else in the thread. I'm sure some people will think of this as an overreaction, but it has been on my mind for quite a while and, I would argue, is a direct cause of problems such as this guy's decision to show up at a tournament covered in fascist apparel.
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Post by: fidel
 insaniak wrote:The thread has done a pretty good job of sticking to the topic so far. Let's not stray into discussions of which political system is worse, m'kay?
Thank you - I’m really enjoying reading this and don’t get off the rail too much guys. Stick to topic.
That being said - what can be done/rules to disallow this in the future. As mentioned previously in this thread, it seems the “Austrian artist” (his own moniker btw) is registered for an event in December. In America it’s quite easy to say we would throw them out, but apparently it is quite legal in Spain to sue someone for discrimination based on their…. Views… however despicable it may be. Sadly I would love to say “rely on common sense and decency to others,” but this specific situation seems to go against that saying heavily.
I’m going to steal what someone else said - but there is a saying that if you have one nazi at a table with five people then you have six nazis. Ideas like this, if left to foster and probe around for normality, need to be cut and burned at the absolute root, because if you allow this to fester then it leads to growth
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Post by: Cronch
Thadin wrote:
But Cronch, you do know that every communist in power has committed genocide, right?
Yes, I am aware that Stalin, Mao and so forth were all paranoid authoritarians that murdered millions. The main difference is, they did it because they were awful human beings, not because communism demands all Ukrainians must starve to death. You can't be a n*zi and not believe the sub-humans, whoever they may be (we know who it may be, it's always the same people with them) need elimination. Subjugation of "inferior" races is the core tenet of that ideology.
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Post by: stonehorse
 lord_blackfang wrote: blood reaper wrote:
I personally don't buy into the claims of some people in the hobby that Warhammer is filled with neo-fascists or neo-Nazis. I do find there are concentrations of people I would describe as sympathisers (and on occasion, cryptos). The problem is when one of these people is spotted, rather than people being worried over the sheer intellectual vileness of their beliefs, they say "Oh but they were polite!"
We kinda are in a hobby where the core premise of the setting is to purge anyone of a different race or religion or who has genetic abnormalities or who sympathizes with any of the above because they pose a threat to our lives and immortal souls. We shouldn't be surprised if the proportion of bigots is a little higher than in the general population.
Sadly a lot of the humour in the original setting has been lost on some people.
40k was never meant to glamourise or champion such things... it was done to mock them, to take those things to there logical conclusion to show just how idiotic they are.
This is something that sadly I have seen people get less and less familiar with within the hobby. I think GW are partly to blame for it as they have toned down the 'Marines are space fascists', due to getting more and more popular. It means that they find themselves in an odd situation where they have to water down a lot of the concepts in their setting so that it appeals to a wider audience, while also trying to keep the older fans who arw more familiar with the setting happy that it is still 40k.
I honestly think that GW are going to steer 40k away from what it is, and turn it into a more generic dystopian sci-fantasy setting... they may even advance it to be set in 50k, much like they did with WFB. So talk of an ancient time before, etc, etc. Guilleman becomes the leader of the now noble and pure Domain of Man, who battle against Chaos, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Necrons. The other Alien races are equally noble allies who sometimes help in the battle (Cities of Sigmar style). It might not happen suddenly, but I think it is going to happen gradually over time, we have seen a tone down on the Imperial Eagle within GW... so I think those at the helm are trying to change course.
Anyway. Any event should have R.O.A.R. (rights of administration reserved). If the organisers don't want an individual there, they should have the right to just say no.
The big issue I think is that we as a society need better ways to try to reach out to people who have slipped down that path. I understand how people can feel uncomfortable with the situation, and fully support their right not to play against such an individual. I just wonder if shunning and further being ostracised will only further cement their ideology?
While I'm not saying we should hug an extremist, as that can be very dangerous, we need to find ways to get people out of that ideology.
Much like Daryl Davis did.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis
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Post by: Platuan4th
I doubt this point specifically because that's exactly HOW these groups operate. They live in that grey area free speech laws afford and vigorously work to make sure people have to acknowledge where that line is and what freedoms they enjoy and often flaunt. I very much expect if they were kicked out that this group would have immediately filed a complaint and suit regardless of any actual outcome because doing so causes trouble for the organizers, forces the system to acknowledge their ability to be the jerks they are, and gives them a platform.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
 Flipsiders wrote:However, they are by far the most blatantly fascist-inspired faction or subfaction Games Workshop has ever produced, and that fact makes me very uncomfortable around some of their fans.
I think that's an absurd and massively reductive take on the BTs. They're medieval Crusaders through a 40k lens. Not fascists. And Marines have never been "space-fascists".
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Post by: macluvin
Actually Jason Stanley described very adequately how fascist politics, even when they fail to put fascism in power, succeeds in destroying and weakening democracy and the power of credibility and the truth. He has a few videos where he intimately covers what defines fascism and discusses how the presence of fascism achieves the weakening of democracy and reason.
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Post by: dewd11
Flipsiders wrote:However, they are by far the most blatantly fascist-inspired faction or subfaction Games Workshop has ever produced, and that fact makes me very uncomfortable around some of their fans.
I feel the same way. I try to avoid people who are really into BT, Minotaurs, Red Scorpions, and the other fash-popular SM armies. I'm sure there are some nice players but I'm not going to take those chances for unpleasantry (especially in a red state with an active KKK) when I'm spoiled for options opponent wise.
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Post by: fidel
dewd11 wrote: Flipsiders wrote:However, they are by far the most blatantly fascist-inspired faction or subfaction Games Workshop has ever produced, and that fact makes me very uncomfortable around some of their fans.
I feel the same way. I try to avoid people who are really into BT, Minotaurs, Red Scorpions, and the other fash-popular SM armies. I'm sure there are some nice players but I'm not going to take those chances for unpleasantry (especially in a red state with an active KKK) when I'm spoiled for options opponent wise.
Wait - Red Scorpions? Do you mind if I ask why they pop up as Fascist popular armies (I really loved them back in the days when you could replace Sgts. with apothecaries)
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Post by: Rihgu
fidel wrote:dewd11 wrote: Flipsiders wrote:However, they are by far the most blatantly fascist-inspired faction or subfaction Games Workshop has ever produced, and that fact makes me very uncomfortable around some of their fans.
I feel the same way. I try to avoid people who are really into BT, Minotaurs, Red Scorpions, and the other fash-popular SM armies. I'm sure there are some nice players but I'm not going to take those chances for unpleasantry (especially in a red state with an active KKK) when I'm spoiled for options opponent wise.
Wait - Red Scorpions? Do you mind if I ask why they pop up as Fascist popular armies (I really loved them back in the days when you could replace Sgts. with apothecaries)
They're all about purity
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Post by: bullyboy
I swear, the whole anti fascist movement has gone off the rails in the US. But then again, its America, they aren't going to half ass anything.
Steering away from BT and other marine chapters based on some weird, and very weak, fascist association exemplifies the ridiculousness of it all.
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Post by: Flipsiders
H.B.M.C. wrote: Flipsiders wrote:However, they are by far the most blatantly fascist-inspired faction or subfaction Games Workshop has ever produced, and that fact makes me very uncomfortable around some of their fans.
I think that's an absurd and massively reductive take on the BTs. They're medieval Crusaders through a 40k lens. Not fascists.
And Marines have never been "space-fascists".
While we can agree to disagree on the Marine front, the BTs pretty obviously incorporate some nazi and neo-nazi imagery, intentional or otherwise. Part of that is likely due to a shared point of origin (as you said, BTs are inspired by the Crusades, and crusader imagery is popular in far-right circles), but some of it definitely feels like either conscious or subconscious influence, namely the black cross and the color scheme. There's nothing inherently wrong with evoking that sort of imagery in a work of fiction—people love Star Wars, after all, and that's about as blatant as you can get—but for 40k in particular it often attracts the wrong sort of crowd. I remember quasi-ironic "God-Emperor Trump" jokes being all the rage in far-right communities during the 2016 election, as an easy example.
bullyboy wrote:I swear, the whole anti fascist movement has gone off the rails in the US. But then again, its America, they aren't going to half ass anything.
Steering away from BT and other marine chapters based on some weird, and very weak, fascist association exemplifies the ridiculousness of it all.
Again, there's nothing wrong with the BT chapter itself, just some members of its audience and, maybe more controversially, possibly the way GW has been handling discussion of the chapter over the past couple of years.
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Post by: Gangland
I think we are doing pretty good as a community considering that this is 1 guy/700 at 1 event/however many events have gone on since the last time this happened which I'm sure is at least a good few years worth. Good job guys.
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Post by: GoldenHorde
Flipsiders wrote:
Again, there's nothing wrong with the BT chapter itself, just some members of its audience and, maybe more controversially, possibly the way GW has been handling discussion of the chapter over the past couple of years.
There's nothing wrong with knives, just some of the people using them. (So we better ban knives.)
In the same sense, no knife maker is asked to be held to account and "handle discussion" of knives being used in violent crimes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dewd11 wrote: Flipsiders wrote:
I feel the same way. I try to avoid people who are really into BT, Minotaurs, Red Scorpions, and the other fash-popular SM armies. I'm sure there are some nice players but I'm not going to take those chances for unpleasantry (especially in a red state with an active KKK) when I'm spoiled for options opponent wise.
I hope you are trolling with this comment
Imagine playing flames of war or bolt action with this childish concept.....
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Post by: bullyboy
Yeah, do people here even realize that Battlefront of NZ has books on SS formations with accompanying "heroes" characters (wittman, Barkman, etc), plus accompanying dice sets of multiple SS divisions...2nd, 3rd, 9th, 10th, 12th, etc.
And people are hurt by Tuetonic crosses on space crusaders?
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Marines have never been "space-facists". Flipsiders wrote:... the BTs pretty obviously incorporate some nazi and neo-nazi imagery, intentional or otherwise.
What? Flipsiders wrote:Part of that is likely due to a shared point of origin (as you said, BTs are inspired by the Crusades, and crusader imagery is popular in far-right circles)...
Which isn't the same as Nazi symbology. You are drawing one long fething bow here. The black cross? You think it's the Iron Cross, which is a German military symbol not a Nazi symbol. It's the Maltese Cross, part of the joke being that they use Knights Hospitaller symbols rather than actual Knights Templar symbols. And are black and white "Nazi" colours now? Aren't they more associated with grey? Flipsiders wrote:Again, there's nothing wrong with the BT chapter itself, just some members of its audience and, maybe more controversially, possibly the way GW has been handling discussion of the chapter over the past couple of years.
I think you're tilting at windmills here.
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Post by: macluvin
As an anti fascist I will say, I am a bit weirded out that someone would read into subfactions of space marines as being attractive to fascists and avoiding them for that reason. Doubly so because unless you’ve played a LOT of 40k I doubt you bothered to collect the data to justify this as little more than superstition. Just play the game and call the Nazis out as you sees them. Or use the cold shoulder. And don’t go looking for them. You’ll find what you are looking for even if it isn’t really there. The entire imperium of man is a satirical take on fascism and religious authoritarianism, of course you’ll find fascism in their factions if you go looking for it.
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Post by: Togusa
bullyboy wrote:I swear, the whole anti fascist movement has gone off the rails in the US. But then again, its America, they aren't going to half ass anything.
Steering away from BT and other marine chapters based on some weird, and very weak, fascist association exemplifies the ridiculousness of it all.
It's because our entire view of politics is currently a raging dumpster fire. People think and act emotionally, and will lash out at anyone who might just be trying to learn more about what is happening. In this case, there has been a lot of information in the threads that didn't exist in the original OP article, which itself is far more focused on outrage than actually telling us what happened, when and how.
I've been playing Warhammer for 7 years now and I've yet to meet one person that expressed fascist ideology or love for Nazism. I know tons of men and women who do play DKoK or BT (myself, I play BT) and none of us have any interest in Nazism. It's pretty silly, but identity politics has become huge, left or right, in the US in the past decade. I fear it's only going to get worse and worse as people continue to talk over each other instead of talking to each other.
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Post by: kurhanik
GoldenHorde wrote: Flipsiders wrote:
Again, there's nothing wrong with the BT chapter itself, just some members of its audience and, maybe more controversially, possibly the way GW has been handling discussion of the chapter over the past couple of years.
There's nothing wrong with knives, just some of the people using them. (So we better ban knives.)
In the same sense, no knife maker is asked to be held to account and "handle discussion" of knives being used in violent crimes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dewd11 wrote: Flipsiders wrote:
I feel the same way. I try to avoid people who are really into BT, Minotaurs, Red Scorpions, and the other fash-popular SM armies. I'm sure there are some nice players but I'm not going to take those chances for unpleasantry (especially in a red state with an active KKK) when I'm spoiled for options opponent wise.
I hope you are trolling with this comment
Imagine playing flames of war or bolt action with this childish concept.....
I mean, for the first part, they just said that they personally avoid them, not to ban Black Templars forever, so I'm not sure what you are getting at there.
For the second, I think avoiding unvetted players in an area with an active KKK group seems somewhat reasonable, and not "childish" as you put it. If you want I could look up the fun things the KKK and KKK adjacent groups have done over the years for you if you really need to know why...
bullyboy wrote:Yeah, do people here even realize that Battlefront of NZ has books on SS formations with accompanying "heroes" characters (wittman, Barkman, etc), plus accompanying dice sets of multiple SS divisions...2nd, 3rd, 9th, 10th, 12th, etc.
And people are hurt by Tuetonic crosses on space crusaders?
Do they really call them "heroes"? That is kind of grotesque.
I mean, far right groups have co-opted several symbols over the years. At least around where I am, one trick to see at a glance if someone is a white supremacist is if they have an obvious iron cross.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Flipsiders wrote:Part of that is likely due to a shared point of origin (as you said, BTs are inspired by the Crusades, and crusader imagery is popular in far-right circles)...
Which isn't the same as Nazi symbology. You are drawing one long fething bow here.
Crusader imagery is popular in far right circles, and some has been co-opted by white supremacists and nazis. If one views the Crusades as an "us vs them" mentality rather than a complex mess of bloody wars, its a convenient message - look at us strong great people protecting our virtues from "them".
On the topic of what to do if someone comes strolling into a tourney decked out in swasticas. If the organizers don't kick them out, I'd just leave. Life is too short to spend it with hate groups that literally want to kill people as a core tenant of their beliefs. If enough people walk, hopefully the tourney organizers take note, otherwise I suppose they are now the nazi tourney group while everyone else has moved on elsewhere.
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Post by: posermcbogus
insaniak wrote: posermcbogus wrote:Hey, so I really appreciate the work here to educate people, and honestly think it's very important, but I can't be the only dakkadakka user who works for a nation's civil service and browses at work...
Could we mayyyyybe host the extremist imagery off-site, please? I've worked with people in the past who would deadass just delete every trace of themselves from this site without even having posted in this thread (...like I have lol) because of how much spooky iconography is getting posted rn. Like I know it probably isn't against the rules and whatever, so sorry for armchair modding, but like - McBogus watches out for McBogus's ass.
I've gone through the thread and switched any hotlinked images to links. If we could all do that moving forward, that would be appreciated... that way at least people are only winding up with the images on their screen for a casual workmate passing by to see if they actually click on the link.
Very much appreciated Thank you very much.
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Post by: bullyboy
 kurhanik wrote:
bullyboy wrote:Yeah, do people here even realize that Battlefront of NZ has books on SS formations with accompanying "heroes" characters (wittman, Barkman, etc), plus accompanying dice sets of multiple SS divisions...2nd, 3rd, 9th, 10th, 12th, etc.
And people are hurt by Tuetonic crosses on space crusaders?
Do they really call them "heroes"? That is kind of grotesque.
Have the books in front of me. One of Wittman's rules was "Hero of the Fatherland". I also have an army of 101st SS Schwere panzer Abteilung, 12th SS Hitkerjugend, plus dice to match. This is of course in addition to all my British, Americans and Soviets. Does it bother me? Not in the slightest.
I understand it's a game of toy soldiers between real combatants of history and not a projection of my personal beliefs. That's why I don't understand half the people on here who make absurd associations with 40K armies.
If someone modeled their army after WWII Germany soldiers (be it Guard or some form of Bloodaxe Orks), I'd have no issue with it whatsoever.
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Post by: ScarletRose
bullyboy wrote: kurhanik wrote:
bullyboy wrote:Yeah, do people here even realize that Battlefront of NZ has books on SS formations with accompanying "heroes" characters (wittman, Barkman, etc), plus accompanying dice sets of multiple SS divisions...2nd, 3rd, 9th, 10th, 12th, etc.
And people are hurt by Tuetonic crosses on space crusaders?
Do they really call them "heroes"? That is kind of grotesque.
Have the books in front of me. One of Wittman's rules was "Hero of the Fatherland". I also have an army of 101st SS Schwere panzer Abteilung, 12th SS Hitkerjugend, plus dice to match. This is of course in addition to all my British, Americans and Soviets. Does it bother me? Not in the slightest.
I understand it's a game of toy soldiers between real combatants of history and not a projection of my personal beliefs. That's why I don't understand half the people on here who make absurd associations with 40K armies.
If someone modeled their army after WWII Germany soldiers (be it Guard or some form of Bloodaxe Orks), I'd have no issue with it whatsoever.
How about if they were wearing a swastika and making jokes about being an "Austrian painter" while playing?
Or are we still in the gymnastics competition for Nazis are a-ok and it's all everyone else's fault?
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Post by: bullyboy
 ScarletRose wrote: bullyboy wrote: kurhanik wrote:
bullyboy wrote:Yeah, do people here even realize that Battlefront of NZ has books on SS formations with accompanying "heroes" characters (wittman, Barkman, etc), plus accompanying dice sets of multiple SS divisions...2nd, 3rd, 9th, 10th, 12th, etc.
And people are hurt by Tuetonic crosses on space crusaders?
Do they really call them "heroes"? That is kind of grotesque.
Have the books in front of me. One of Wittman's rules was "Hero of the Fatherland". I also have an army of 101st SS Schwere panzer Abteilung, 12th SS Hitkerjugend, plus dice to match. This is of course in addition to all my British, Americans and Soviets. Does it bother me? Not in the slightest.
I understand it's a game of toy soldiers between real combatants of history and not a projection of my personal beliefs. That's why I don't understand half the people on here who make absurd associations with 40K armies.
If someone modeled their army after WWII Germany soldiers (be it Guard or some form of Bloodaxe Orks), I'd have no issue with it whatsoever.
How about if they were wearing a swastika and making jokes about being an "Austrian painter" while playing?
Or are we still in the gymnastics competition for Nazis are a-ok and it's all everyone else's fault?
Think I made my point clear in an earlier post, perhaps scan back up and check it out if your attention span allows for it.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
kurhanik wrote:Crusader imagery is popular in far right circles, and some has been co-opted by white supremacists and nazis. If one views the Crusades as an "us vs them" mentality rather than a complex mess of bloody wars, its a convenient message - look at us strong great people protecting our virtues from "them".
And nothing in this paragraph in any way means that Black Templars are inspired by, promote, display or otherwise show "Nazi symbolism" or are "fascist". Something being co-oped by another group doesn't make the original thing into that thing. Similarly, a fictional thing that is inspired by said original thing doesn't suddenly become bad because of a third party's co-opting of something from that original thing.
This reminds me of all those people who says "You like Darth Vader? Well that means you're a fascist and support the things the Empire did!". It's absurd.
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Post by: stonehorse
Sorry to break it to you, but like I said earlier:
' 40k was never meant to glamourise or champion such things... it was done to mock them, to take those things to there logical conclusion to show just how idiotic they are.'
The IoM is a satirical take on facisim, as Marines are its Ubermen... they are (or at least were coded as fascists in space). A bit like how Judge Dredd is a brutal fascists as well... but is some how OK in his world. Marines like Dredd take the whole 'Strong men in hard times make hard choices' and run with it to show how stupid such a thing is. The whole 'strong men' thing is a classic component of facisim. This isn't he same as me saying 'people are not allowed to play Marines or enjoy Judge Dredd'. Personally I think censorship is stupid, don't like a form of entertainment... avoid it.
This all being said, I do think that there is a bit of a craze at the moment to look for facisim. Not sure if this is due to concept creep, paranoia, or people just spending too much time online in their own echo Chambers... which results in seeing everything in a black & white mindset.
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Post by: Blackie
All SM are space fascists, so staying away from BT players is complete nonsense. They're fascists in the way the empire from Star Wars is fascist, and who don't like stormtroopers and siths? Ultramarines have simbols from the roman empire, which were adopted by italian fascism.
I'm a proud lefty but I adore the BT aesthetics. It has a medieval vibe, which is awesome for the 40k setting. In fact along with SW, another army with some medieval vibe, they're the only SM models that I actually like.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Cronch wrote: Thadin wrote: But Cronch, you do know that every communist in power has committed genocide, right?
Yes, I am aware that Stalin, Mao and so forth were all paranoid authoritarians that murdered millions. The main difference is, they did it because they were awful human beings, not because communism demands all Ukrainians must starve to death. You can't be a n*zi and not believe the sub-humans, whoever they may be (we know who it may be, it's always the same people with them) need elimination. Subjugation of "inferior" races is the core tenet of that ideology.
The contrast in how Nazi symbols are unacceptable in social situations while communist or imperialist symbols are tolerated is a fascinating topic of discussion. Just not here.
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Post by: Olthannon
Defending the guy wearing nazi symbology is why he thought to do it in the first place. Clearly comfortable enough to publicly walk around wearing it, even go to an event. That says a lot about the community they find themselves.
I have to ask, what exactly is the point of this endless cyclical discussion online where as soon as people say Nazis are bad you get this "oh but communism buh huhr"?
Is it just that you aren't fans of association?
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Post by: GoldenHorde
 Olthannon wrote:Defending the guy wearing nazi symbology is why he thought to do it in the first place. Clearly comfortable enough to publicly walk around wearing it, even go to an event. That says a lot about the community they find themselves.
I have to ask, what exactly is the point of this endless cyclical discussion online where as soon as people say Nazis are bad you get this "oh but communism buh huhr"?
Is it just that you aren't fans of association?
It's not the example of the tournament player in the OP. who had some far right iconography.
It's more about the segue into the loons who senselessly run around calling everyone a nazi.
They need to grow up and sadly the moderators tolerate their bs
I mean look at the comic in the original link. "Some odin gak" It's actually disrespectful to people with a norse heritage...kinda racist too
You know..."some odin gak" is actually some people's cultural heritage.
I mean that comic explains everything wrong with those people's thinking.
The comic telling players that if they play faction X,Y, or Z they're NAZIS. This whole thread is a pretense to push that agenda. They don't really give a crap about fringe groups in spain who have extremist views.
You know aphyon copped a week ban for this moronic hysteria.......because his avatar was norse heritage and some clown claimed it was neo-nazi.
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Post by: Sunno
As something of an outside observer here I think there are actually two conversations happening in this thread at the same time and being interwoven and intermixed when they should really be separate topics:
1) was the guy at the Spanish tournament a Nazi and should Nazis or any extremists be allowed at tournaments? - answer, clearly yes he was and no they clearly shouldn't be. Probably doesn't even need any more discussion.
2) does the 40k setting and established lore sit with current moral, political and social trends and if not, what is its future? - a much more complex discussion as the whole point of the 40K universe is that its all shared of grey and black which is tricky in todays social and political climate when people have to talk in simple absolutes. However its a conversation that will decide the future of the game and GWs fanbase.
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Post by: StraightSilver
I think if we take out of the equation specific ideologies or behaviours that some people may, or may not find offensive, I have always believed there is an unwritten, social contract at any public event.
In our club it's called "Don't be a dick".
One of the best aspects of wargaming is the ability to turn up at an event, meet a total stranger, and share a common interest that even has a common language.
I could go to an event and meet someone that doesn't necessarily speak the same language as me, but still be able to play a game as the rules are the same.
I can also meet people form all walks of life, people I may not meet in any other circumstance, and enjoy a game and learn about people through a shared experience.
Sadly, that can also be a negative experience, as in the case of the topic of this thread.
If I sign up to an event, that requires me to spend 90 minutes with a complete stranger, then I expect to at least have a good time, but that also requires myself and my opponent to be respectful of each other and ensure both of us have a good time.
It's absolutely the case that you are going to meet and spend time with people that you might not necessarily choose to outside of the event, but that's what you signed up for.
However, it's not (usually) possible to tell a person's political beliefs, sexuality or any other defining aspects of their character just by looking at them, and you would expect in 90 minute game to be discussing their army and their rules rather than getting to know them intimately.
Unless they are overtly displaying those traits either through their army (real world references in painting etc), their behaviour or overt signs such as tattoos, dress etc.
Outside of a public event, if I walked past "The Austrian Painter" in question - would I personally want to spend 90 minutes of my time with them? Absolutely not, because I could guess the type of person they are just from their overt display of their political affiliation.
But within the confines of an event where pairings are random you don't have much of a choice aside from walk away, but then you have paid money to participate in something that you didn't get to do.
Had the player in question not been so blatant there's a chance you could have a game with him and be none the wiser.
But I think it's also a slippery slope to judge people on appearance and dictating what they can and can't wear, unless it's offensive.
And so we go back to the unwritten social contract.
It should be the responsibility of every player to be mindful of their actions and behaviours, and to "not be a dick".
And if another player finds something you have said, done, implied etc offensive and they ask you to stop doing it, you apologise and don't do it.
So the question is - if the event organisers informed him that what he was wearing was offensive and wold he mind covering it up, would he have done so?
I doubt it, as if he was following the "unwritten" contract he wouldn't have worn it in the first place.
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Post by: Elemental
Olthannon wrote:Defending the guy wearing nazi symbology is why he thought to do it in the first place. Clearly comfortable enough to publicly walk around wearing it, even go to an event. That says a lot about the community they find themselves.
I have to ask, what exactly is the point of this endless cyclical discussion online where as soon as people say Nazis are bad you get this "oh but communism buh huhr"?
Is it just that you aren't fans of association?
If you look back to the 1930's, the fascists loved using communism as a bogeyman there too. And they'd also hype up how terrible anti-fascists were and how they were just defending themselves. It's pretty much the same playbook.
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Post by: DominayTrix
 GoldenHorde wrote: Olthannon wrote:Defending the guy wearing nazi symbology is why he thought to do it in the first place. Clearly comfortable enough to publicly walk around wearing it, even go to an event. That says a lot about the community they find themselves.
I have to ask, what exactly is the point of this endless cyclical discussion online where as soon as people say Nazis are bad you get this "oh but communism buh huhr"?
Is it just that you aren't fans of association?
It's not the example of the tournament player in the OP. who had some far right iconography.
It's more about the segue into the loons who senselessly run around calling everyone a nazi.
They need to grow up and sadly the moderators tolerate their bs
I mean look at the comic in the original link. "Some odin gak" It's actually disrespectful to people with a norse heritage...kinda racist too
You know..."some odin gak" is actually some people's cultural heritage.
I mean that comic explains everything wrong with those people's thinking.
The comic telling players that if they play faction X,Y, or Z they're NAZIS. This whole thread is a pretense to push that agenda. They don't really give a crap about fringe groups in spain who have extremist views.
You know aphyon copped a week ban for this moronic hysteria.......because his avatar was norse heritage and some clown claimed it was neo-nazi.
O man this is a sore spot for me. I have Swedish heritage, but I cannot wear anything Nordic or Viking because Nazis have appropriated it and there is no such thing as nuance or context anymore. Amusingly though, apparently "nazi" symbols only count on BT and the Space Wolves get a pass because space beards are really that cool. Its....painfully inconsistent.
Bringing it back to topic, wouldn't a "this is a public event so we reserve the right to enforce a dress code" type rule effectively work. It means that "yes you have to wear pants" "I'm sorry that jacket violates our dress code, if you do not change into something else we will have to ask you to leave" It's a little different from outright asking someone to because you don't agree with their personal politics. I'm not from Spain so I cannot comment on your laws, but kicking him out because "we don't like your nazi symbols" would be attacking him for political/religious reasons which are both protected classes in my home state. "Multiple players have refused to play with you and this is causing a disturbance for our tournament" would be much more likely to fly. Especially if you offer them the option to get changed or something to de-escalate first.
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Post by: _SeeD_
Was he booted?
I would have not played with such a person, loss or not.
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Post by: SlaveToDorkness
I have a hard time punishing people for their beliefs and opinions. Too close to thought police for my taste.
Was he handing out propaganda?was his army painted or modelled offensively? Did he even espouse any beliefs? Was he in any way a jerk?
The idea is to stop the mindset I would think acting like his silly ideas don't matter at all would go further than giving them the power to make everyone lose their gak over lines printed on a shirt.
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Post by: macluvin
 SlaveToDorkness wrote:I have a hard time punishing people for their beliefs and opinions. Too close to thought police for my taste.
Was he handing out propaganda?was his army painted or modelled offensively? Did he even espouse any beliefs? Was he in any way a jerk?
The idea is to stop the mindset I would think acting like his silly ideas don't matter at all would go further than giving them the power to make everyone lose their gak over lines printed on a shirt.
I would hesitate to believe that. Nazis are way too comfortable. See the tiki torch rally and the dudes marching down Washington DC chanting “blood and soil” and other nazi slogans in Nazi garb. Fascists are a fringe portion of punk because punk rockers did everything they could to make Nazis uncomfortable in their culture. See the song “nazi punks f*ck off.” In America they march in DC because we defend their entitlement to their opinion. Fascist politics, even in the best of cases are absolutely toxic to the health of a democracy.
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Post by: SlaveToDorkness
macluvin wrote: SlaveToDorkness wrote:I have a hard time punishing people for their beliefs and opinions. Too close to thought police for my taste.
Was he handing out propaganda?was his army painted or modelled offensively? Did he even espouse any beliefs? Was he in any way a jerk?
The idea is to stop the mindset I would think acting like his silly ideas don't matter at all would go further than giving them the power to make everyone lose their gak over lines printed on a shirt.
I would hesitate to believe that. Nazis are way too comfortable. See the tiki torch rally and the dudes marching down Washington DC chanting “blood and soil” and other nazi slogans in Nazi garb. Fascists are a fringe portion of punk because punk rockers did everything they could to make Nazis uncomfortable in their culture. See the song “nazi punks f*ck off.” In America they march in DC because we defend their entitlement to their opinion. Fascist politics, even in the best of cases are absolutely toxic to the health of a democracy.
Tiki torch rally when? Washington or Charlottesville?
I believe the only threat to the health of a democracy is dismissing people based on their beliefs. That's literally what democracy is for, to hear the opinions of the entire population. The least democratic thing I can think of is silencing people for their beliefs, which is kinda Facist.
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Post by: DominayTrix
 _SeeD_ wrote:Was he booted?
I would have not played with such a person, loss or not.
Apparently they were not according to previous posters. TO asked a police officer who was playing and it would open them to lawsuits etc.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
This thread is off the rails...
but anyway, fascism is antithetical to democracy. Fascism actively seeks to overthrow democracy. You cannot allow fascism to exist withon a democracy if you wish to keep your democracy. Trying to do so is a lot like inviting a serial killer into your home and hoping/expecting they won't try to kill anyone. This is the concept of "the paradox of tolerance" - I suggest some of you familiarize yourselves with it.
This whole "but mah free speech" thing is a failure to understand or comprehend what the concept of free speech actually means and seeks to reduce the entire concept down to a literal interpretation of the words themselves. Its not exactly valid or intelligent to take a stance in this debate on that basis.
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Post by: Hankovitch
 stonehorse wrote:
It truly baffles me how we have a growing vocal group saying something which is just as bad as Nazisim (because both are horrid ideologies that treat people like dog excrement to achieve their goals) gets a pass, and also if you call out Communism, then you are a Neo-Nazi? For real...
Because bolshevism is not a problem in western countries in the present day. Fascism is. We do not have "communists" committing massacres in churches and schools. Communists are not being elected to state and national office; fascists are. Stalinists and Maoists aren't attacking tolerance and democracy in our countries. If they were, we would have a problem with it.
And that's why, yes, we make a bigger deal over a young gak with Nazi paraphanelia than we do, say, an edgelord with Communist party badge, or a Mao cap, or whatever. Because whatever equivalence you can point to among various historical tyrannies, only one of these factions is an active and (literally) deadly problem in American and European democracies.
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Post by: Cronch
To a straight, white-passing man the n*zis and their views are just another voice in the great theater of democracy.
To anyone else, it's a threat of violence based on history.
That much is clear from the thread.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Im straight and white passing, im smart enough to recognize the threat of violence regardless because i can think more than 5 minutes into the future and can process empathy for others who aren't as privileged as myself.
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Post by: blaktoof
Togusa wrote: bullyboy wrote:I swear, the whole anti fascist movement has gone off the rails in the US. But then again, its America, they aren't going to half ass anything.
Steering away from BT and other marine chapters based on some weird, and very weak, fascist association exemplifies the ridiculousness of it all.
It's because our entire view of politics is currently a raging dumpster fire. People think and act emotionally, and will lash out at anyone who might just be trying to learn more about what is happening. In this case, there has been a lot of information in the threads that didn't exist in the original OP article, which itself is far more focused on outrage than actually telling us what happened, when and how.
I've been playing Warhammer for 7 years now and I've yet to meet one person that expressed fascist ideology or love for Nazism. I know tons of men and women who do play DKoK or BT (myself, I play BT) and none of us have any interest in Nazism. It's pretty silly, but identity politics has become huge, left or right, in the US in the past decade. I fear it's only going to get worse and worse as people continue to talk over each other instead of talking to each other.
Couple this with the American tendency towards tribalism, and the past few years of people having less in person contact and spending more times communicating in online circles which are highly insular, their news feeds essentially group think by targeted AI and algorithm, and we basically have a situation where the American antifascist movement has become actually fascist in many groups.
One of the big problems is the current weaponization of words and meaning. I will show you this light that is green but you will say it is blue. People have begun labelling things as fascist, racist, communist, far left, far right- which in many cases are not those things but we have entered a social order where for some people a rose by any other name is to them is indeed not a rose is different and racist.
This is off topic from the OP, the person in the tournament is obviously pro fascism, but calling a templar cross fascist because some miniscule group of pro fascist people use it does not make it fascist. If a new fascist group that was based on Nazi ideology rose up and used the LGBT flag as their icon would that icon become a Nazi fascist icon?
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Post by: BertBert
In Germany, we have very clear laws delineating what is and what isn't covered by freedom of speech/expression/religion. Trying to undermine the constitution or the democratic process is a criminal offense, as is sedition (I hope that's the right term). In Germany, again, the display of a swastika would be deemed indicative of a system in which the undermining of democracy and the constitutional state is tolerated, which is considered to be a criminal offense. The crucial part of this law is that you don't even need to make a scene or openly declare your support by making certain gestures or spouting slogans, the display of the image in itself is enough, no matter the (lack of) intent.
So the TO would have been well within their right to exclude the person wearing this shirt (in Germany). Even if this guy is the nicest dude around, he is not operating within the legal framework we'd consider covered by freedom of speech/expression.
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Post by: Cronch
chaos0xomega wrote:Im straight and white passing, im smart enough to recognize the threat of violence regardless because i can think more than 5 minutes into the future and can process empathy for others who aren't as privileged as myself.
True, I should've said "can be" instead of "is".
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Post by: Slipspace
SlaveToDorkness wrote:I have a hard time punishing people for their beliefs and opinions. Too close to thought police for my taste.
Was he handing out propaganda?was his army painted or modelled offensively? Did he even espouse any beliefs? Was he in any way a jerk?
The idea is to stop the mindset I would think acting like his silly ideas don't matter at all would go further than giving them the power to make everyone lose their gak over lines printed on a shirt.
He was identifying as a supporter of nazis. Wearing fascist iconography is espousing those beliefs. Nobody wears that stuff ironically. That means he believes it's OK to kill people from any number of ethnic or religious groups simply for being from those groups. Why should anyone have to put up with that in a tournament for goddamn toy soldiers?
I have no problem excluding from society people whose views include the belief that my wife should be killed for being the wrong race. Why should anyone have to deal with that at a wargaming tournament? Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from consequences. He has no intrinsic right to play in the tournament and it's hardly an infringement of his human rights to kick him out. It's probably also worth pointing out that Europe tends to have a slightly different approach to freedom of speech than the US. In western Europe, at least, there are certain restrictions on free speech/expression, usually around hate speech.
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Post by: Elemental
SlaveToDorkness wrote:I have a hard time punishing people for their beliefs and opinions. Too close to thought police for my taste.
Was he handing out propaganda?was his army painted or modelled offensively? Did he even espouse any beliefs? Was he in any way a jerk?
The idea is to stop the mindset I would think acting like his silly ideas don't matter at all would go further than giving them the power to make everyone lose their gak over lines printed on a shirt.
People absolutely should be punished for advertising their belief in a philosophy based around violence, dehumanisation and ultimately genocide. Pile on the shame, drive them from public spaces and polite society, drive home the notion that in the real world, that stuff makes you a bad person who should feel bad. No excuses, no whataboutism, no apologies, and absolutely no normalisation.
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Post by: ph34r
SlaveToDorkness wrote:I believe the only threat to the health of a democracy is dismissing people based on their beliefs. That's literally what democracy is for, to hear the opinions of the entire population. The least democratic thing I can think of is silencing people for their beliefs, which is kinda Facist.
N: "Well, I just think that particular white people are better, and Jews should all be murdered, and political beliefs by those people are communist propaganda and should be silenced, it's just my opinion, just my belief, no need to get triggered"
P1: "I think we know all we need to, to disregard this guy and throw him out"
P2: "No no, if we exclude someone just because they want to murder Jews, that's almost as bad as if WE were the Nazis! Maybe even worse!"
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Post by: insaniak
I have just removed a bunch of off topic chatter from the last page of so. As a reminder, this thread is not the place to discuss the mechanics of communist theory.
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Post by: BlackoCatto
 ph34r wrote:
SlaveToDorkness wrote:I believe the only threat to the health of a democracy is dismissing people based on their beliefs. That's literally what democracy is for, to hear the opinions of the entire population. The least democratic thing I can think of is silencing people for their beliefs, which is kinda Facist.
N: "Well, I just think that particular white people are better, and Jews should all be murdered, and political beliefs by those people are communist propaganda and should be silenced, it's just my opinion, just my belief, no need to get triggered"
P1: "I think we know all we need to, to disregard this guy and throw him out"
P2: "No no, if we exclude someone just because they want to murder Jews, that's almost as bad as if WE were the Nazis! Maybe even worse!"
A certain mercenary thought we should get rid of both the communist and fascist.
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Post by: kurhanik
H.B.M.C. wrote: kurhanik wrote:Crusader imagery is popular in far right circles, and some has been co-opted by white supremacists and nazis. If one views the Crusades as an "us vs them" mentality rather than a complex mess of bloody wars, its a convenient message - look at us strong great people protecting our virtues from "them".
And nothing in this paragraph in any way means that Black Templars are inspired by, promote, display or otherwise show "Nazi symbolism" or are "fascist". Something being co-oped by another group doesn't make the original thing into that thing. Similarly, a fictional thing that is inspired by said original thing doesn't suddenly become bad because of a third party's co-opting of something from that original thing.
This reminds me of all those people who says "You like Darth Vader? Well that means you're a fascist and support the things the Empire did!". It's absurd.
I was just explaining how some of the imagery was co-opted. Black Templars to me personally are no more or less fascist than the rest of the Imperium - I'd personally be more worried about meeting someone who built an Imperial Guard army out of panzers and WWII German infantry. Or if the player themself was wearing Iron Crosses etc. Still, in the context of "living in an area with an active KKK" where one of the posters noted why they might avoid strangers playing those armies, it seems reasonable.
As a white man it gets tiring enough when another white person of that mindset, on the assumption of shared beliefs, starts saying the quiet part out loud. I can only imagine how it would feel if they were saying it to one of the groups they actively target.
chaos0xomega wrote:This thread is off the rails...
but anyway, fascism is antithetical to democracy. Fascism actively seeks to overthrow democracy. You cannot allow fascism to exist withon a democracy if you wish to keep your democracy. Trying to do so is a lot like inviting a serial killer into your home and hoping/expecting they won't try to kill anyone. This is the concept of "the paradox of tolerance" - I suggest some of you familiarize yourselves with it.
This whole "but mah free speech" thing is a failure to understand or comprehend what the concept of free speech actually means and seeks to reduce the entire concept down to a literal interpretation of the words themselves. Its not exactly valid or intelligent to take a stance in this debate on that basis.
The Paradox of Tolerance is one of those unfortunate truths. If you give literal fascists a free pass because they are entitled to their opinions, they can, and will, work their hardest to drown out all other talk while simultaneously blaming their chosen "other" to blame for everything. In the 1920s and 30s the nazis blamed Communists and Jews for everything, past few years the neo-nazi camp has been blaming an "extreme left" and antifa while they literally run people over with cars and shoot up churches filled with minorities.
Right, Left, Center or whatever, stamping out literal neo-nazis is important because they will hijack what they can and continue to profess the murder and Othering of their chosen targets.
ph34r wrote:
SlaveToDorkness wrote:I believe the only threat to the health of a democracy is dismissing people based on their beliefs. That's literally what democracy is for, to hear the opinions of the entire population. The least democratic thing I can think of is silencing people for their beliefs, which is kinda Facist.
N: "Well, I just think that particular white people are better, and Jews should all be murdered, and political beliefs by those people are communist propaganda and should be silenced, it's just my opinion, just my belief, no need to get triggered"
P1: "I think we know all we need to, to disregard this guy and throw him out"
P2: "No no, if we exclude someone just because they want to murder Jews, that's almost as bad as if WE were the Nazis! Maybe even worse!"
Yeah basically this. When someone actively shows off their personal belief that all "others" must be murdered, and that we are big strong men making hard choices by...silencing all opposition, murdering people, and in the case of the historical nazis industrializing murder. Yeah, exclude that person, they are poisoning the well.
128453
Post by: BlackoCatto
kurhanik wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote: kurhanik wrote:Crusader imagery is popular in far right circles, and some has been co-opted by white supremacists and nazis. If one views the Crusades as an "us vs them" mentality rather than a complex mess of bloody wars, its a convenient message - look at us strong great people protecting our virtues from "them".
And nothing in this paragraph in any way means that Black Templars are inspired by, promote, display or otherwise show "Nazi symbolism" or are "fascist". Something being co-oped by another group doesn't make the original thing into that thing. Similarly, a fictional thing that is inspired by said original thing doesn't suddenly become bad because of a third party's co-opting of something from that original thing.
This reminds me of all those people who says "You like Darth Vader? Well that means you're a fascist and support the things the Empire did!". It's absurd.
I was just explaining how some of the imagery was co-opted. Black Templars to me personally are no more or less fascist than the rest of the Imperium - I'd personally be more worried about meeting someone who built an Imperial Guard army out of panzers and WWII German infantry. Or if the player themself was wearing Iron Crosses etc. Still, in the context of "living in an area with an active KKK" where one of the posters noted why they might avoid strangers playing those armies, it seems reasonable.
As a white man it gets tiring enough when another white person of that mindset, on the assumption of shared beliefs, starts saying the quiet part out loud. I can only imagine how it would feel if they were saying it to one of the groups they actively target.
chaos0xomega wrote:This thread is off the rails...
but anyway, fascism is antithetical to democracy. Fascism actively seeks to overthrow democracy. You cannot allow fascism to exist withon a democracy if you wish to keep your democracy. Trying to do so is a lot like inviting a serial killer into your home and hoping/expecting they won't try to kill anyone. This is the concept of "the paradox of tolerance" - I suggest some of you familiarize yourselves with it.
This whole "but mah free speech" thing is a failure to understand or comprehend what the concept of free speech actually means and seeks to reduce the entire concept down to a literal interpretation of the words themselves. Its not exactly valid or intelligent to take a stance in this debate on that basis.
The Paradox of Tolerance is one of those unfortunate truths. If you give literal fascists a free pass because they are entitled to their opinions, they can, and will, work their hardest to drown out all other talk while simultaneously blaming their chosen "other" to blame for everything. In the 1920s and 30s the nazis blamed Communists and Jews for everything, past few years the neo-nazi camp has been blaming an "extreme left" and antifa while they literally run people over with cars and shoot up churches filled with minorities.
Right, Left, Center or whatever, stamping out literal neo-nazis is important because they will hijack what they can and continue to profess the murder and Othering of their chosen targets.
ph34r wrote:
SlaveToDorkness wrote:I believe the only threat to the health of a democracy is dismissing people based on their beliefs. That's literally what democracy is for, to hear the opinions of the entire population. The least democratic thing I can think of is silencing people for their beliefs, which is kinda Facist.
N: "Well, I just think that particular white people are better, and Jews should all be murdered, and political beliefs by those people are communist propaganda and should be silenced, it's just my opinion, just my belief, no need to get triggered"
P1: "I think we know all we need to, to disregard this guy and throw him out"
P2: "No no, if we exclude someone just because they want to murder Jews, that's almost as bad as if WE were the Nazis! Maybe even worse!"
Yeah basically this. When someone actively shows off their personal belief that all "others" must be murdered, and that we are big strong men making hard choices by...silencing all opposition, murdering people, and in the case of the historical nazis industrializing murder. Yeah, exclude that person, they are poisoning the well.
Good that you agree we should get rid of antisemitic Marxists as well and while we are at it, Antifa. Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if we are going be using the dam Paradox of Tolerance, at least use the whole thing:
"Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.
— In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise."
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Post by: stonehorse
The event organisers should have had asked the guy to either change their clothes, or leave the event with a refund. It is their event, they can enforce R.O.A.R.
Anarchism, Capitalism, Communism, and Facisim are brutal horrid ideologies die to being very extreme.
Socialism on the other hand is a more reasonable approach as it aims to find a happy medium.
We need more finding common ground to stop extremism. I think social media and smart phones are a big player in the recent polarisation
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Post by: blaktoof
I think the real issue is 40k is not a space for real world politics, especially at an event. If you want to support communism, fascism, anarchy, democracy, whatever- a gaming event is not the space for that.
GW realizes this and excludes real world political groups etc as paint and iconography schemes from their events. Independent events should take this up as well.
This is all in the context that none of these real world groups officially exist on GW game lore, this isn't bolt action or some other historical game that is recreating real world fighting forces connected to a political group.
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Post by: fidel
so as the person who posted this topic please pay attention
While I appreciate your deep dives into the fascist nature of 40K and the intricacies of communist governments vs. fascists ones or the hypocrisy of showing one symbol and not another - that conversation should be had elsewhere as that was neither the purpose nor the reason I posted this.
I posted this to one: discuss how we as a community can prevent filth like this from coming to events (which can very depending on country), would you have played a player or taken the DQ.
I’m not trying to censor your topics - as they are all fascinating - but it does not pertain to the original reason why I posted this.
As I said before - I do not think there needs to be a rule that says “no hate symbols” as common sense applies, and at least in the US I can remove you from a private location or event for whatever reason I want. Apparently, because this happened in Spain, the neo nazi team could have sued the event for discrimination - which is why they catered to their whims as disgusting as they are as people.
I personally would not have played them and taken the DQ - however I would have video recorded the conversation with the TO and the opposing team and blasted it on the forum of public opinion (Internet).
Please stay on topic because we started off strong and it was super interesting - but some people want to debate other topics that don’t belong in this post.
Thank you 
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Post by: DeathKorp_Rider
Ban the symbolism from tournaments otherwise leave them alone. Unless they start spouting off racist language or break out some Nazi memorabilia they are within their right to play. I’d let them play as long as they don’t provoke anything or be disruptive. You can’t get anymore restrictive than that without infringing on peoples rights and freedom of expression, at least in America (not trying to put us above anyone I’m just saying it’s in the constitution). Hell I’m a Marxist and I would rather they allowed to play so long as they aren’t wearing any symbolism that kicking out everyone because we think they might be harboring ideas we disagree with.
130024
Post by: GoldenHorde
insaniak wrote: I have just removed a bunch of off topic chatter from the last page of so. As a reminder, this thread is not the place to discuss the mechanics of communist theory.
You also removed my critique of the gakky article the OP posted.
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Post by: JNAProductions
I didn’t think “Nazis are bad” would be considered a hot take.
121131
Post by: Catulle
fidel wrote:Apparently, because this happened in Spain, the neo nazi team could have sued the event for discrimination - which is why they catered to their whims as disgusting as they are as people.
I would be *intensely* skeptical of this take, not least of all because it fell from the lips of the nazis in question, but with a side of familiarity with EU law (I had to take a module in it, at any rate.)
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Post by: insaniak
GoldenHorde wrote: insaniak wrote: I have just removed a bunch of off topic chatter from the last page of so. As a reminder, this thread is not the place to discuss the mechanics of communist theory.
You also removed my critique of the gakky article the OP posted.
Which should have been a clue that it weas inappropriate, rather than an invitation to repost something that was removed for being off topic.
The fact that the linked article in turn links to something that you find questionable is irrelevant to the actual topic under discussion.
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Post by: fidel
Catulle wrote:fidel wrote:Apparently, because this happened in Spain, the neo nazi team could have sued the event for discrimination - which is why they catered to their whims as disgusting as they are as people.
I would be *intensely* skeptical of this take, not least of all because it fell from the lips of the nazis in question, but with a side of familiarity with EU law (I had to take a module in it, at any rate.)
.
Let me rephrase/be more specific. Whether the lawsuit was credible or not according to EU law, the tournament organizers thought it was enough of a threat to not deal with the nazis. It’s one of those “ugh if I leave them alone it will be less of a hassle then engaging them.”
The problem is that they were nazis - you don’t leave them alone. You attack them, always.
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Post by: insaniak
Final warning for the thread - please keep it on topic, and keep it civil. If you're not interested in discussing the topic, or just interested in stirring the pot, please move on. If you think someone is just trolling, please refrain from responding to them. The thread started out well, and is a worthwhile discussion provided it stays on track.
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Post by: Blackie
SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I believe the only threat to the health of a democracy is dismissing people based on their beliefs. That's literally what democracy is for, to hear the opinions of the entire population. The least democratic thing I can think of is silencing people for their beliefs, which is kinda Facist.
Democracy doesn't mean people are free to do whatever they want and even to say whatever they want. There are boundaries. Silencing people that defend/advocate a culture that promotes racism and even genocide is 100% within the boundaries of a democracy.
For things like KKK, nazism, islamic fondamentalism, etc... there is no room for them in a democracy. If a democratic society fails, let alone refuses, to silence them is because that society is full of flaws (which should be fixed) or complicit. Any form of freedom has boundaries, even in a democracy, including freedom of speech.
What about a guy wearing a t-shirt celebrating Bin Laden showing up at a US tournament?
Unfortunately laws can be flawed and in fact t-shirt like these ones are not illegal, in Italy there are shops that sell fascist merchandising (including batons) and they're 100% legal. A TO can clarify in advance that no political symbols are allowed to avoid the incident, and players can definitely refuse to play against a guy wearing those.
130024
Post by: GoldenHorde
insaniak wrote:
The fact that the linked article in turn links to something that you find questionable is irrelevant to the actual topic under discussion.
You're being grossly disingenuous. It was on topic.
It wasn't a link in a link. It was in the article which was in the original post.
I don't need to parse threads according to your irrational shifting goalposts. The article was presented by OP. It's the same damn subject. I'll discuss it.
122848
Post by: _SeeD_
Nazis want to kill people like me.
How could I possibly respect that?
34439
Post by: Formosa
I am totally fine with banning Nazis, also want Commies, fascists, Pinkos and Tankies banned and all derivatives removed from polite society.
which has some far reaching consequences, or, we can live in this liberal society and try to tolerate the evil scum that support the above so long as they do not harm people, after all that is what tolerance means even if we find it hard.
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Post by: Togusa
Anyways, back on topic. Who here things GW will make a statement about this in the coming week? Any chance that the TOs will lose GW support?
5946
Post by: Miguelsan
Togusa wrote:Anyways, back on topic. Who here things GW will make a statement about this in the coming week? Any chance that the TOs will lose GW support?
I could not find in the official material any reference to GW sponsoring the tournament so there is little GW can do other than say do not use our trademarks in your posters. And even in that case I don't know if that's possible, it would be akin to Porche saying we forbid nazis to drive our cars.
M.
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Post by: Slipspace
 Formosa wrote:I am totally fine with banning Nazis, also want Commies, fascists, Pinkos and Tankies banned and all derivatives removed from polite society.
which has some far reaching consequences, or, we can live in this liberal society and try to tolerate the evil scum that support the above so long as they do not harm people, after all that is what tolerance means even if we find it hard.
I have no problem banning anyone espousing an ideology that literally calls for genocide. I have no time for interacting with people like that, least of all at a wargaming tournament. That doesn't just include Nazis but may not include communists (in the strictest sense of the term, anyway). There's a distinction to be made between ideologies that intrinsically call for genocide and those that have been used to justify it without it necessarily being a defining trait of that ideology.
If we were to widen the context of discussion there are certainly grey areas to discuss. You know what isn't a grey area? Nazis.
Just thinking about the last large tournament I attended, I'd say about 10% of people there were clearly from a group that this scumbag's ideology would like to see exterminated. Who knows how many others were similarly affected in less obvious ways? In what sane world are we saying it's OK for a tournament to welcome these people? Why is there so much hand-wringing over ejecting someone form a tournament whose ideology would like to see some of the participants murdered? Am I supposed to spend my free time playing a game with a guy who would like to see my son, my wife and her entire family exterminated? Is that something I'm supposed to tolerate in any situation, never mind a goddamn game of toy soldiers?
130024
Post by: GoldenHorde
Togusa wrote:Anyways, back on topic. Who here things GW will make a statement about this in the coming week? Any chance that the TOs will lose GW support?
So you think its a good idea that GW should collectively punish the Spanish competitive scene for the actions of a fringe group?
Wow, talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater
109034
Post by: Slipspace
GoldenHorde wrote: Togusa wrote:Anyways, back on topic. Who here things GW will make a statement about this in the coming week? Any chance that the TOs will lose GW support?
So you think its a good idea that GW should collectively punish the Spanish competitive scene for the actions of a fringe group?
Wow, talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater
A major part of the complaints here are also about the actions of the TO. According to reports from the attendees the TO seemed more concerned with banning players using recasts than ejecting the Nazis from his tournament. I don't think GW will make any sort of statement here as I don't think they were really that involved in the tournament, but I don't see why it would be unreasonable for them to view the TO's behaviour as something they don't want to endorse as a company.
If they were to take action it would likely be linked to the specific TOs, for the specific inaction that has been identified. That may hurt the Spanish scene but that's kind of incidental to the message as a whole and the reason for taking the action.
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Post by: Lord Damocles
Maybe corporations targeting individuals isn't really something we want to be calling for? Just a thought...
124190
Post by: Klickor
As long as people don't bring up or show any political affiliations I think the best way to go forward as a society is to actually encourage Nazis, communists and other groups that all look down on other people, be it due to race, religion, class or sexuality, to attend normal events like a warhammer tournament. It is damn hard to be hateful against people you have had a good time with. Sure they can use logic like "that individual was nice but X group should still be discriminated/killed/abused" but it will still create some small doubt in their mind that later can be the key point to make them discard their hateful ideology and become an upstanding person in society. You have to show tolerance and extend a branch for them to grab onto. As long as it is only bad stuff in their head and they haven't done anything unforgivable there needs to be an option open to them or things will only get worse in the future if those people become even more radicalized.
There should of course be a zero tolerance policy for them to show nazi symbolism and equivalent or behave in a bad manner against other players or attendants of the event. As long as they act in good faith and behave there is no problem. But as soon as they break those rules they should be booted. We can't and shouldn't try to monitor thoughts but actions should have consequences.
I don't think I have played against any actual Nazis, at least not that I know of. but I have played with or against people who have spouted other hateful things on social media or other places outside of the game being played. I don't really mind as long as none of it shows up when we play. I won't try to learn to know the person more afterwards though if I know their political beliefs and if those also are important to that persons identity. Not worth the time but I can still have fun at a game. I do have friends that are extremely left wing/some kind of communist (not woke though) while I am more of a right wing nationalist(at least in a swedish context) but we all know to leave politics behind when we meet and play games. We are after all trying to get away from reality and relax and leave controversial topics at home.
Hopefully they can make sure their next event isn't sullied by these neo fascists or whatever they are in a way that doesn't open them up for discrimination charges or hits with too broad of a brush and make the rules feel oppressive.
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Post by: fidel
Togusa wrote:Anyways, back on topic. Who here things GW will make a statement about this in the coming week? Any chance that the TOs will lose GW support?
One would hope - GW has made statements in the past banning such behavior. Sadly private events can do what they please.
Further - apparently this self-proclaimed “Austrian artist” is registered for another event in December. So we will see.
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Post by: Overread
GW doesn't control what independent events choose to do and about the only thing GW could do is cut trade ties to any sponsoring vendor for the event. GW don't really have a huge hand in most events and even when they do turn up to an outside event its more as a booth/stand than to organise/run the event. GW is super hands off most competitive events.
So in general there isn't really anything for GW to do in this situation; this is a social matter for the TO and their group/event to discuss and sort out for themselves.
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Post by: a_typical_hero
I don't think GW will or needs to make a statement about that tournament or the TO in specific, given it was not officially affiliated with them.
Making what happened known to the wider tournament public so people can make a decision wether they attend another time, or the TO to reflect on possible policies, is more important imho.
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Post by: Cronch
There's really no need to get GW involved. It's entirely on the TOs to decide if they're fine with having this kind of customer turn up for their event or not.
Like, if you're fine with hakenkreuzes at your tournament it's fine with me too, just let me know so i don't turn up.
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Post by: Elemental
GoldenHorde wrote: Togusa wrote:Anyways, back on topic. Who here things GW will make a statement about this in the coming week? Any chance that the TOs will lose GW support?
So you think its a good idea that GW should collectively punish the Spanish competitive scene for the actions of a fringe group?
Wow, talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater
That sounds like a really good idea! Don't want to lose support, then purge the Nazis from your events and show zero tolerance to anyone who starts spewing their rhetoric. This is not the faintest bit controversial. Why would anyone NOT want to do that, unless they were the sort of failed human who tries to make excuses for Nazis? Automatically Appended Next Post: Slipspace wrote: Formosa wrote:I am totally fine with banning Nazis, also want Commies, fascists, Pinkos and Tankies banned and all derivatives removed from polite society.
which has some far reaching consequences, or, we can live in this liberal society and try to tolerate the evil scum that support the above so long as they do not harm people, after all that is what tolerance means even if we find it hard.
I have no problem banning anyone espousing an ideology that literally calls for genocide. I have no time for interacting with people like that, least of all at a wargaming tournament. That doesn't just include Nazis but may not include communists (in the strictest sense of the term, anyway). There's a distinction to be made between ideologies that intrinsically call for genocide and those that have been used to justify it without it necessarily being a defining trait of that ideology.
The fascist apologists in this thread know that perfectly well, they're just playing meaingless whataboutism games so that Nazis don't appear that bad. Why they're doing that is left to the reader's imagination, but it's not too hard to draw conclusions.
Klickor wrote:As long as people don't bring up or show any political affiliations I think the best way to go forward as a society is to actually encourage Nazis, communists and other groups that all look down on other people, be it due to race, religion, class or sexuality, to attend normal events like a warhammer tournament. It is damn hard to be hateful against people you have had a good time with. Sure they can use logic like "that individual was nice but X group should still be discriminated/killed/abused" but it will still create some small doubt in their mind that later can be the key point to make them discard their hateful ideology and become an upstanding person in society. You have to show tolerance and extend a branch for them to grab onto. As long as it is only bad stuff in their head and they haven't done anything unforgivable there needs to be an option open to them or things will only get worse in the future if those people become even more radicalized.
That comes at the expense of creating a hostile environment for anyone who feels uncomfortable sharing an event with a known Nazi. Also known as "anyone with a shred of decency". And I don't think any event wants to be known in far-right circles as "that place that's friendly to people like us".
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Post by: Klickor
 Elemental wrote:
That comes at the expense of creating a hostile environment for anyone who feels uncomfortable sharing an event with a known Nazi. Also known as "anyone with a shred of decency". And I don't think any event wants to be known in far-right circles as "that place that's friendly to people like us".
Don't think it would be much of a problem in the long run. They won't be allowed to promote their ideology or they will be kicked so quite a few probably won't show up just for that reason alone and some won't be able to if they have nazi symbols on their models or have visible tats with nazi symbols. So those that do show up are probably a minority of the group of nazi's that are more on the fringe rather than so deep in it they wouldn't be able to ever come out of it. If they can't be there with ulterior motives they have to be a bit open minded since they sign up with the knowledge they will have to play against people they might see as beneath them and not being able to do a thing. Many people that are drawn to the extreme fringes are looking for company and people that accept them and not only people that are deep into the specific religion/ideology. If you can show them they can be accepted in another larger and more welcoming community they might not stay in that hateful group for long.
It is important though that the organizers and people around have a zero tolerance policy against anything not decent and are willing to actually act on it and instantly kick them out or ban them if they misbehave. Just because you are tolerant doesn't mean you shouldn't have boundaries. Should be same rules for everyone. Lately identity politics have taken up too much space in public discourse and certain actions have been differently judged due to what group they belong to. Doesn't matter if you align or not with their politics, the rules and treatment should be the same. If you are left leaning then don't let communists get away with bad behavior against right wing people just because you align to them a bit. Same with right wing people if there are conservative christians who act rude to gay people at an event. If you don't let any bad behavior slip by no matter who the bad behavior came from it shouldn't be hard to expel Nazi's when they act up without getting any negative backlash.
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Post by: posermcbogus
How much rope can I be expected to give someone who views me as subhuman? Who would reduce the value of my friends to how much labor they can produce in relation to the calories they consume? Who would take the institutions I hold dear and undermine and subvert them to their own ends? Who brazenly say "I wish to pervert the justice system, exploit liberal democracy, doctor history to deny my crimes, and absolve my martyrs, at the expense of all of those institutions, which I seek to destroy, and I have no shame about the terroristic violence I wish to use for those aims", to those who would reduce my children to ratios of 'pure' blood and pseudo-scientific cranial measurements? Greater men than I would say, "just enough that their feet can't touch the ground."
For those of you who think maybe we could try to be permissive about this particular breed of extremist in civil society - ask the German Jewish people, the trade unionists, the social democrats, the conscientious objectors, the mixed-race children, the handicapped, the socialists, ad infinitum of 1930s Germany, just how well that experiment worked for their society. They might have a hard time answering you.
There is a very good reason that these groups have to endlessly go into hiding, re-group and re-brand. Very simply put, it's because by their very nature, they cannot refrain from breaking the law. There is an inevitability to their criminality, purely out of the nature of their worldview. Because that is the kind of creature a fascist is. He is a terrorist. There is nothing more to be said about someone who subscribes to an ideology of racialist war.
How would you feel as the father of a nerdy Jewish boy, coming home from this tournament, too flustered and scared to say anything at the time? As a black kid suddenly finding out that this was their partner? As any number of Spanish minorities whose inalienable right to exist as an inoffensive, innocent, beautiful and inherently valuable member of the human race, simply trying to have a fun weekend was deliberately and knowingly attacked by this man? An attack completely, if accounts are accurate, upheld and protected by the TO?
Have any of you actually been in a situation where you've encountered actual exterminationists? Like, not gakky footie hooligans who have a vague notion of like, this thing they heard of called sharia law, and have nothing even resembling comprehension of, but they've been told they wouldn't like it, but like, actual people calling for genocide?
I have.
It's unreal.
I was on a date with a Korean lover of mine, when in Osaka we took a wrong turn, and found ourselves face to face with a convoy of Imperialists, calling on the government to retract all it's (very few) apologies for the war, go back to the military government and the immediate deportation of all Koreans.
It's a unique feeling.
I'll never forget it. There isn't anything that stings quite like the injustice of looking down into the face of someone you love, and them trying to put a brave smile on it, grimacing at what had been the previously pleasant discussion about what to have for lunch and saying saying "no, it's fine, it happens" when really it's not fine, nothing about that situation is fair, and it shouldn't happen. No one trying to have fun, minding their own business, should have a reminder thrown in their faces that actually, some people regard them as subhuman, and loudly want them to suffer. Against a stream of military-styled pickup trucks, you become very aware that you are just one man, sinew, bones, soft tissue.
Nothing about a Sunday afternoon of fun should involve that for anyone, ever, it's fethed up.
This is an event, widely publicized now, which indirectly reflects on all of us. This is a hobby we share with this man. How many of you are willing to say "Yes, I'd see this man, shrug my shoulders and move along?"
The fething slippery goalposts of people trying to divert the conversation to be about "Yes, well I also hate other kinds of political extremists! Did you know communists are also very, very bad?" are missing the point appallingly hard. I know the OP is a bit strongly worded. I know the article linked by OP is VERY strongly worded. But you're all missing the point by a country mile here. But you know what? Nazis went out of their way to kill millions, and start a war that killed millions more. I think people are entitled to a strong reaction.
Because, as much as this thread FEATURES a neo-nazi, it's not really about neo-nazis. It's about us, as a community. It's about our reaction, in gaming, to someone deliberately being SO anti-social in this hobby, about bending rules and manipulating social norms just so they can signpost their repugnant views at one of OUR community events, about using OUR space to try to make an environment that accepts this kind of exterminationist, racist bs, and what we as individuals, and what we as a community would, can, and should do to make this hobby a better place, not only for ourselves, and our own personal comfort, but for everyone.
Nerds aren't only white Europeans. Nerds come in a whole, wonderful, nerdy rainbow, with fascinations in all kinds of stuff. They enrich our own nerddom with their ideas, their views, with their enthusiasms for things we hadn't even heard of, but sound pretty cool. If we deny them a place at our table, we hurt ourselves, because at the end of the day, we're all here because we really like silly nerdy stuff.
My local GW was at the periphery between the town center, and a really deprived part of town. I want to live in a world where nerdy kids who grew up poor, or from a minorty background can feel just as welcomed and comfortable walking into that GW as I do. Who can leave all the bs of microagressions, of societal expectations, of school, bullies, work, stress, whatever, at the door, and talk about skeleton warriors, can be excited about space marines, can roll dice with me, and break bread.
Exterminationists? Nazis? To that ancient question - "who will help me bake this bread?" They would shoot all the animals who were not capable of toiling in the field, would enslave their children in dangerous kitchens, and end up with a world where all eat maggot-filled flour, hiding in a concrete ruin.
This is a fething forum for playing with little space men for feth's sake. What is so hard for some of you with this? Any kind of ideology that espouses this drivel is abhorrent. This guy is a sad little scumbag. The Tourney is weak for not just giving him the boot, and for once, I actually hope GWs judicious IP lawyers are well-placed. Sod fan animations, this is what they should be going after. And really, this kind of anti-social, hate-filled, violence-promoting behavior is something that should be easy for all of us to condemn.
It's odd that it's so hard for some of you.
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Post by: The_Real_Chris
Klickor wrote:
I don't think I have played against any actual Nazis, at least not that I know of. but I have played with or against people who have spouted other hateful things on social media or other places outside of the game being played. I don't really mind as long as none of it shows up when we play.
So you would be fine with the sort of scenario where like in the TV series Red Dwarf where the crew enjoy playing cards with senior Nazi figures as they are fine unless you talk about politics? It’s extreme but it brings up the question is there any type of person you wouldn’t associate with if they weren’t openly espousing or doing at that moment in time something you don’t agree with?
I won't try to learn to know the person more afterwards though if I know their political beliefs and if those also are important to that persons identity. Not worth the time but I can still have fun at a game. I do have friends that are extremely left wing/some kind of communist (not woke though) while I am more of a right wing nationalist(at least in a swedish context) but we all know to leave politics behind when we meet and play games.
To be clear being what is caricatured as woke has zero to do with traditional left wing politics. Automatically Appended Next Post: GoldenHorde wrote: Togusa wrote:Anyways, back on topic. Who here things GW will make a statement about this in the coming week? Any chance that the TOs will lose GW support?
So you think its a good idea that GW should collectively punish the Spanish competitive scene for the actions of a fringe group?
Wow, talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater
That is what happened to English football due to the actions of a few hooligans. Disproportionate, unfair, discriminatory. Also effective and a better match day atmosphere today.
664
Post by: Grimtuff
EDIT- You know what? Sod this. I'm not getting involved...
124190
Post by: Klickor
The_Real_Chris wrote:
So you would be fine with the sort of scenario where like in the TV series Red Dwarf where the crew enjoy playing cards with senior Nazi figures as they are fine unless you talk about politics? It’s extreme but it brings up the question is there any type of person you wouldn’t associate with if they weren’t openly espousing or doing at that moment in time something you don’t agree with?
To be clear being what is caricatured as woke has zero to do with traditional left wing politics.
Don't know what is meant with senior Nazi figures here but if it is anything like WW2 nazis that actually took part of a genocide I would of course not be fine with playing them. I wouldn't be fine with them being able to play cards with anyone outside of a prison cell. I am assuming, and might be wrong about this, that most modern day nazi's that would show up to a 40k tournament without any nazi symbols on them and also not spouting any hateful rhetoric and be able to play through an event with people from all walks of life isn't that hardcore of a Nazi but most likely a misguided person in the wrong crowd and with help from society could be pulled out of it. But people convicted of actual hateful crimes, especially violent ones, I think should be a basis to ban people from events due to. Not sure if it is even legal everywhere or even feasible but I would be fine with banning rapists, murderers or any other of the worse violent crimes there is no matter the political background.
The extreme ends are quite often brought up in media and if you were to believe everything that was said then the world would look like 45% antifa, 45% fascists and 10% cowardly fence sitters. But truth is the actual extremists of those ideologies in the west are quite few in numbers and even among those there are shades of gray before you reach the really lost people that there is no hope for. I think that is important to remember. Not so much for the actual authoritarian's sake but for society at large. Hooligans, KKK, antifa, neo-nazis, BLM rioters(not the legitimate protesters) and a few other groups have a ton of people in them that care more for acting out violence and having a sense of belonging than they care about the current ideology of the group they are a part of. Not that uncommon to see people having been part of more than one violent group like that. Jumping from an antifa group to the "opposite" neo-nazi group. Or the reverse. Give them a sense of belonging and meaning to their life and most likely you can pull them out before they do stupid stuff that will ruin their own or others life for ever.
I know woke don't have much with a lot of left wing traditional politics which is why I mentioned that they weren't woke. Just the quickest way to get my meaning across. Should perhaps have just said "traditional" before "left wing".
122350
Post by: Cronch
Lovely sentiment which changes nothing about the fact that White Power and n*zi-adjecent iconography has no place at a tournament. You can reach out to the people who believe "hitler did nothing wrong" in your own spare time to convince them that it is in fact wrong to want to murder whole ethnicities, but at no point should they be left feeling like they belong WHILE spouting their nonsense.
124190
Post by: Klickor
Cronch wrote:Lovely sentiment which changes nothing about the fact that White Power and n*zi-adjecent iconography has no place at a tournament. You can reach out to the people who believe "hitler did nothing wrong" in your own spare time to convince them that it is in fact wrong to want to murder whole ethnicities, but at no point should they be left feeling like they belong WHILE spouting their nonsense.
100% agree. Just making sure you didn't get the opposite from my previous post. The people in the OP should have been kicked from the event if possible and even more preferably not even have been let in through the front door.
514
Post by: Orlanth
I am in two minds about this.
On one hand, I get wary when I hear the words 'ban the Nazis' because normally Nazi is a blanket term to label anyone insufficiently woke. This is even true here as Neo-Nazis are rarely actual Nazis, National Socialism has been dead since the 1940's and its last adherents from that time are all very old.
On the other hand, these appear to be genuine Neo-Nazis.
So what to do. How to marry both of the below:
A. It is not fair to discriminate.
B. TO's are not obliged to welcome everyone, and can bar people for bad behaviour.
I think the correct way to handle this is for the TO's to approach the contestants and say that their attire 'causes offence'.
It must therefore be removed, if no alternate wear is provided offensive T-shirts can be worn inside out.
If they do so, play on, opponents can be informed of their right to take offence to the attire, but not to the individual if they comply with basic moral standards.
If the contestants refuse, then you have moral resource to exercise your rights to exclude them from the venue.
If the contestant is removed before they start playing they should be refunded tournament entry fee, otherwise not.
Two comments:
Again I am wary over that blanket term 'causes offence', as the right to be offended is lobsided, as is application, and the term is politicised and not used impartially in modern society. These imbalances do nothing but fuel far right extremism. However by almost any definition Neo-Nazis fit the bill of offensive and unwanted. To the extent that it is something that both right and left can agree on.
And for the record the right and alt-right would likely be the first to the army recruiting centre if a real Reich was to emerge from the darkness.
As for the cross in the circle symbol.
It is another ancient symbol hijacked by the extreme right.
It is an astrological symbol, and represents Terra. It is of the same family of symbols as the Masculine Mars symbol and the Feminine Venus symbol. It is as harmless as the Hindu swastika, but.....
122753
Post by: DeathKorp_Rider
 Orlanth wrote:I think the correct way to handle this is for the TO's to approach the contestants and say that their attire 'causes offence'.
It must therefore be removed, if no alternate wear is provided offensive T-shirts can be worn inside out.
If they do so, play on, opponents can be informed of their right to take offence to the attire, but not to the individual if they comply with basic moral standards.
If the contestants refuse, then you have moral resource to exercise your rights to exclude them from the venue.
If the contestant is removed before they start playing they should be refunded tournament entry fee, otherwise not.
This is the only correct course of action. It’s the appropriate middle ground that gives everyone a chance to treat one another like human beings.
121131
Post by: Catulle
Eh, I think it's pretty much fine to take offence to the individual at that point since, you know, they're a dude that tried to rep for the reich at a toy soldiers event and no amount of t-shirt flipping makes anyone obliged to forget what actions just happened.
122350
Post by: Cronch
Except of course we know for a fact that one of those does not see the other as human beings. If the person did, they'd not be into an ideology that specifically teaches some humans are less than people. A neo-nazi with his swastika-shirt in a backpack is just as much of a neonazi, and no one involved can miss the point surely?
The question is- is the symbol offensive, or is the belief espoused by the symbol offensive?
I realize this will irk the legalists among us, but context is important. This is the kind of nonsense approach that sees the bully and the victim that punched back both punished for "fighting" at school.
514
Post by: Orlanth
Cronch wrote:Except of course we know for a fact that one of those does not see the other as human beings. If the person did, they'd not be into an ideology that specifically teaches some humans are less than people. A neo-nazi with his swastika-shirt in a backpack is just as much of a neonazi, and no one involved can miss the point surely?
.
The problem with this is that dehumanisation is not solely the preserve of Neo-Nazis, cancel culture is full of people who believe that others who do not share their ideology or race are inferiors, and most cancellers are not far right.
Where do you draw the line?
122350
Post by: Cronch
Ah yes, "cancel culture", of which we know because the "victims" of it are telling us all about how they got "cancelled". LOL, totally comparable to "I think gays and jews should go into the oven"
121131
Post by: Catulle
Orlanth wrote:Cronch wrote:Except of course we know for a fact that one of those does not see the other as human beings. If the person did, they'd not be into an ideology that specifically teaches some humans are less than people. A neo-nazi with his swastika-shirt in a backpack is just as much of a neonazi, and no one involved can miss the point surely?
.
The problem with this is that dehumanisation is not solely the preserve of Neo-Nazis, cancel culture is full of people who believe that others who do not share their ideology or race are inferiors, and most cancellers are not far right.
Where do you draw the line?
It's a neo-nazi under discussion here. Why so very interested in deflecting from that?
4042
Post by: Da Boss
Orlanth wrote:Cronch wrote:Except of course we know for a fact that one of those does not see the other as human beings. If the person did, they'd not be into an ideology that specifically teaches some humans are less than people. A neo-nazi with his swastika-shirt in a backpack is just as much of a neonazi, and no one involved can miss the point surely?
.
The problem with this is that dehumanisation is not solely the preserve of Neo-Nazis, cancel culture is full of people who believe that others who do not share their ideology or race are inferiors, and most cancellers are not far right.
Where do you draw the line?
You let me know when "cancel culture" is advocating for genocide, and I'll be right there with you. That's where I draw the line, personally. Crazy, right?
124190
Post by: Klickor
"Cancel culture"/"woke culture"/"twitter activists" might not advocate for genocide but it does set up sides and feeds into the "we vs them" narrative that leads to people seeing those that aren't on their side as worse people than they really are in a way to dehumanize them.
It is fair game in current times to dehumanize Nazis and is also quite common to brand the opposition as Nazis thus dehumanizing normal right wingers. This dehumanization and false accusations leads to both violence and increased tensions. A good example of this is the antifa guy who last year went up behind what I think was a trump supporter in a MAGA hat and shot him in the back of his head in a cold blooded execution. Some people even think that was a good act since to them the guy killed was the same as a Nazi and everyone thinks it's fine to use violence against those right?
Just because something isn't as bad as literal Nazis and the holocaust doesn't mean it isn't a bad way to do things. This riling up tensions on both sides and dehumanizing each other is actually something that if brought to a point could actually lead to massacres, civil war or even a genocide. Wars and genocides have been done over less and humans in mob that think they have justice on their side can do horrible things for the right cause.
Too much dehumanization and ostracizing can actually strengthen groups as Neo-Nazis justifying their ideology and beliefs and then things get only worse. We should treat the individuals as humans as far as we can like any other person, as long as they haven't really done anything bad besides their thoughts, but show a firm stance against their ideology. Then they can't set up a narrative where they are the victims which would weaken their movement.
122350
Post by: Cronch
Ah yes, the one antifa dude vs how many alt-right church/shopping center shooters? The whattaboutism is off the charts.
This isn't about if "the woke people think you're a bad person because you said gay people catching AIDS is god's punishment", it's about "should a person with obviously alt-right/neonazi symbolism on their clothes be allowed into an event".
We've went through "but Stalin", and when no one jumped to defend that ol' monster it's now to "but wokes", anything to not say outright that blatant neo-nazis have no place at warhammer tournaments.
121131
Post by: Catulle
Cronch wrote:Ah yes, the one antifa dude vs how many alt-right church/shopping center shooters? The whattaboutism is off the charts.
This isn't about if "the woke people think you're a bad person because you said gay people catching AIDS is god's punishment", it's about "should a person with obviously alt-right/neonazi symbolism on their clothes be allowed into an event".
We've went through "but Stalin", and when no one jumped to defend that ol' monster it's now to "but wokes", anything to not say outright that blatant neo-nazis have no place at warhammer tournaments.
"It's political correctness gone maaaaad!"
(Won't somebody think of the slippery slopes?)
104890
Post by: ScarletRose
Cronch wrote:Ah yes, the one antifa dude vs how many alt-right church/shopping center shooters? The whattaboutism is off the charts.
This isn't about if "the woke people think you're a bad person because you said gay people catching AIDS is god's punishment", it's about "should a person with obviously alt-right/neonazi symbolism on their clothes be allowed into an event".
We've went through "but Stalin", and when no one jumped to defend that ol' monster it's now to "but wokes", anything to not say outright that blatant neo-nazis have no place at warhammer tournaments.
You have to appreciate the recasting of "rightwing brawler who came out to start a fight and got one" became "poor innocent MAGA-head who was just handing out candy to children". Some top-tier revisionism there.
124190
Post by: Klickor
Cronch wrote:Ah yes, the one antifa dude vs how many alt-right church/shopping center shooters? The whattaboutism is off the charts.
This isn't about if "the woke people think you're a bad person because you said gay people catching AIDS is god's punishment", it's about "should a person with obviously alt-right/neonazi symbolism on their clothes be allowed into an event".
We've went through "but Stalin", and when no one jumped to defend that ol' monster it's now to "but wokes", anything to not say outright that blatant neo-nazis have no place at warhammer tournaments.
I mentioned that one because I know that guy was an active antifa member and executed a right winger in the middle of a street. It is the clearest example of how this dehumanization works I could think of. There are of course situations with the politics reversed, that is true but many of them are more muddled when it comes to motivations and targets. And it was also a direct response to "cancel culture" never hurt anyone so more related to that.
I think most people have been clear that they don't want the Neo-nazis in the OP to be allowed at events if they show nazi symbols. You are making it sound like people is trying to defend the act of showing nazi symbol and spouting their hateful rhetoric. That haven't been the case for almost every post in this thread. Letting people who have nasty thoughts be able to enter an event if they behave is not the same as allowing them to go there with nazi symbolism and acting bigoted.
You are mostly just straw-manning and riling up tensions. You could just have made your stance clear with a "just shoot the nazi scum at the entrance and be done with it" and then left the thread without typing out your constructive thoughts.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ScarletRose wrote:Cronch wrote:Ah yes, the one antifa dude vs how many alt-right church/shopping center shooters? The whattaboutism is off the charts.
This isn't about if "the woke people think you're a bad person because you said gay people catching AIDS is god's punishment", it's about "should a person with obviously alt-right/neonazi symbolism on their clothes be allowed into an event".
We've went through "but Stalin", and when no one jumped to defend that ol' monster it's now to "but wokes", anything to not say outright that blatant neo-nazis have no place at warhammer tournaments.
You have to appreciate the recasting of "rightwing brawler who came out to start a fight and got one" became "poor innocent MAGA-head who was just handing out candy to children". Some top-tier revisionism there.
I don't really care about what happened before said person was killed. He might have been a piece of gak of a person but normal people don't sneak up on people they think are bad and execute them. Not even if they are a Nazi that was involved in a brawl or riot earlier in the day. You can clearly see in the video that it wasn't a fight that escalated but a straight up execution. You don't do that in a civilized society no matter what situation. But the dehumanization obviously work because you don't see the wrong in it just as the attacker. If the situation was the reverse with the MAGA guy executing the Antifa guy it would be equally as bad. It has nothing to do with their actual politics but the dehumanization going on.
122350
Post by: Cronch
Half this thread is whataboutism, dragging Stalin, Mao and "cancel culture" into a topic about...not stalin, not mao, and not cancel culture. I'm not saying those posters defend the neo-nazi, I'm saying they're doing a surprising mental gymnastic to somehow equalize an actual, honest to fuhrer neo-nazi at a warhammer event to purely theoretical communists and "wokies", and making an argument that we can't ban people in neonazi paraphernalia from events because we've not banned those theoretical commies.
And you've just decided that this equals to "I want him dead" which is an amazing leap of logic that'd win you gold at the apologist olympics.
I'm starting to think Warhammer doesn't have a fascist problem because people are trying real hard to not notice the fashies. But hey, do go on hand-wringing if "cancel culture" will end up creating conservative concentration camps if we ban Austrian Painters from tournaments.
108384
Post by: kurhanik
posermcbogus wrote:How much rope can I be expected to give someone who views me as subhuman? Who would reduce the value of my friends to how much labor they can produce in relation to the calories they consume? Who would take the institutions I hold dear and undermine and subvert them to their own ends? Who brazenly say "I wish to pervert the justice system, exploit liberal democracy, doctor history to deny my crimes, and absolve my martyrs, at the expense of all of those institutions, which I seek to destroy, and I have no shame about the terroristic violence I wish to use for those aims", to those who would reduce my children to ratios of 'pure' blood and pseudo-scientific cranial measurements? Greater men than I would say, "just enough that their feet can't touch the ground."
For those of you who think maybe we could try to be permissive about this particular breed of extremist in civil society - ask the German Jewish people, the trade unionists, the social democrats, the conscientious objectors, the mixed-race children, the handicapped, the socialists, ad infinitum of 1930s Germany, just how well that experiment worked for their society. They might have a hard time answering you.
There is a very good reason that these groups have to endlessly go into hiding, re-group and re-brand. Very simply put, it's because by their very nature, they cannot refrain from breaking the law. There is an inevitability to their criminality, purely out of the nature of their worldview. Because that is the kind of creature a fascist is. He is a terrorist. There is nothing more to be said about someone who subscribes to an ideology of racialist war.
How would you feel as the father of a nerdy Jewish boy, coming home from this tournament, too flustered and scared to say anything at the time? As a black kid suddenly finding out that this was their partner? As any number of Spanish minorities whose inalienable right to exist as an inoffensive, innocent, beautiful and inherently valuable member of the human race, simply trying to have a fun weekend was deliberately and knowingly attacked by this man? An attack completely, if accounts are accurate, upheld and protected by the TO?
Have any of you actually been in a situation where you've encountered actual exterminationists? Like, not gakky footie hooligans who have a vague notion of like, this thing they heard of called sharia law, and have nothing even resembling comprehension of, but they've been told they wouldn't like it, but like, actual people calling for genocide?
I have.
It's unreal.
I was on a date with a Korean lover of mine, when in Osaka we took a wrong turn, and found ourselves face to face with a convoy of Imperialists, calling on the government to retract all it's (very few) apologies for the war, go back to the military government and the immediate deportation of all Koreans.
It's a unique feeling.
I'll never forget it. There isn't anything that stings quite like the injustice of looking down into the face of someone you love, and them trying to put a brave smile on it, grimacing at what had been the previously pleasant discussion about what to have for lunch and saying saying "no, it's fine, it happens" when really it's not fine, nothing about that situation is fair, and it shouldn't happen. No one trying to have fun, minding their own business, should have a reminder thrown in their faces that actually, some people regard them as subhuman, and loudly want them to suffer. Against a stream of military-styled pickup trucks, you become very aware that you are just one man, sinew, bones, soft tissue.
Nothing about a Sunday afternoon of fun should involve that for anyone, ever, it's fethed up.
This is an event, widely publicized now, which indirectly reflects on all of us. This is a hobby we share with this man. How many of you are willing to say "Yes, I'd see this man, shrug my shoulders and move along?"
The fething slippery goalposts of people trying to divert the conversation to be about "Yes, well I also hate other kinds of political extremists! Did you know communists are also very, very bad?" are missing the point appallingly hard. I know the OP is a bit strongly worded. I know the article linked by OP is VERY strongly worded. But you're all missing the point by a country mile here. But you know what? Nazis went out of their way to kill millions, and start a war that killed millions more. I think people are entitled to a strong reaction.
Because, as much as this thread FEATURES a neo-nazi, it's not really about neo-nazis. It's about us, as a community. It's about our reaction, in gaming, to someone deliberately being SO anti-social in this hobby, about bending rules and manipulating social norms just so they can signpost their repugnant views at one of OUR community events, about using OUR space to try to make an environment that accepts this kind of exterminationist, racist bs, and what we as individuals, and what we as a community would, can, and should do to make this hobby a better place, not only for ourselves, and our own personal comfort, but for everyone.
Nerds aren't only white Europeans. Nerds come in a whole, wonderful, nerdy rainbow, with fascinations in all kinds of stuff. They enrich our own nerddom with their ideas, their views, with their enthusiasms for things we hadn't even heard of, but sound pretty cool. If we deny them a place at our table, we hurt ourselves, because at the end of the day, we're all here because we really like silly nerdy stuff.
My local GW was at the periphery between the town center, and a really deprived part of town. I want to live in a world where nerdy kids who grew up poor, or from a minorty background can feel just as welcomed and comfortable walking into that GW as I do. Who can leave all the bs of microagressions, of societal expectations, of school, bullies, work, stress, whatever, at the door, and talk about skeleton warriors, can be excited about space marines, can roll dice with me, and break bread.
Exterminationists? Nazis? To that ancient question - "who will help me bake this bread?" They would shoot all the animals who were not capable of toiling in the field, would enslave their children in dangerous kitchens, and end up with a world where all eat maggot-filled flour, hiding in a concrete ruin.
This is a fething forum for playing with little space men for feth's sake. What is so hard for some of you with this? Any kind of ideology that espouses this drivel is abhorrent. This guy is a sad little scumbag. The Tourney is weak for not just giving him the boot, and for once, I actually hope GWs judicious IP lawyers are well-placed. Sod fan animations, this is what they should be going after. And really, this kind of anti-social, hate-filled, violence-promoting behavior is something that should be easy for all of us to condemn.
It's odd that it's so hard for some of you.
This is beautifully put.
Also that interaction with nationalists sucks. All my bad experiences are from the context of being part of the "in" crowd, so they are happy to say the quiet part out loud. I can only imagine what it is like from being in the out group and having the 'quiet' part yelled at me.
124190
Post by: Klickor
The only people who have said that they can't ban people in neo-nazi crap is those that live in places were that can be cause for discrimination and risk them getting sued. There are different rules and laws in different countries. Apparently the country in question that the actual event we talked about is in have such rules. Just banning the people in question might actually be a bad idea if they are solely targeted. Not that we can't ban them because we haven't banned commies yet. Banning other symbols from other authoritarian ideologies is also a good idea because even though they might not be as bad as Nazis they are still bad and would make for a better environment if removed from a gaming space. And if its all politics/religions banned at an event neo-nazis can't claim they are discriminated against and thus won't have any legal grounds to sue on.
I think you are looking a bit hard to find people that defend Nazis to the point you are seeing them everywhere. I think I saw a few early posts that were a bit hesitant to call them nazis because they didn't have all the information or didn't understand all of it due to them being a local spanish group of fascists. But for the last few pages no one has defended them being there as "of course they should be able to attend and show Nazi symbols".
45130
Post by: fidel
posermcbogus wrote:How much rope can I be expected to give someone who views me as subhuman? Who would reduce the value of my friends to how much labor they can produce in relation to the calories they consume? Who would take the institutions I hold dear and undermine and subvert them to their own ends? Who brazenly say "I wish to pervert the justice system, exploit liberal democracy, doctor history to deny my crimes, and absolve my martyrs, at the expense of all of those institutions, which I seek to destroy, and I have no shame about the terroristic violence I wish to use for those aims", to those who would reduce my children to ratios of 'pure' blood and pseudo-scientific cranial measurements? Greater men than I would say, "just enough that their feet can't touch the ground."
For those of you who think maybe we could try to be permissive about this particular breed of extremist in civil society - ask the German Jewish people, the trade unionists, the social democrats, the conscientious objectors, the mixed-race children, the handicapped, the socialists, ad infinitum of 1930s Germany, just how well that experiment worked for their society. They might have a hard time answering you.
There is a very good reason that these groups have to endlessly go into hiding, re-group and re-brand. Very simply put, it's because by their very nature, they cannot refrain from breaking the law. There is an inevitability to their criminality, purely out of the nature of their worldview. Because that is the kind of creature a fascist is. He is a terrorist. There is nothing more to be said about someone who subscribes to an ideology of racialist war.
How would you feel as the father of a nerdy Jewish boy, coming home from this tournament, too flustered and scared to say anything at the time? As a black kid suddenly finding out that this was their partner? As any number of Spanish minorities whose inalienable right to exist as an inoffensive, innocent, beautiful and inherently valuable member of the human race, simply trying to have a fun weekend was deliberately and knowingly attacked by this man? An attack completely, if accounts are accurate, upheld and protected by the TO?
Have any of you actually been in a situation where you've encountered actual exterminationists? Like, not gakky footie hooligans who have a vague notion of like, this thing they heard of called sharia law, and have nothing even resembling comprehension of, but they've been told they wouldn't like it, but like, actual people calling for genocide?
I have.
It's unreal.
I was on a date with a Korean lover of mine, when in Osaka we took a wrong turn, and found ourselves face to face with a convoy of Imperialists, calling on the government to retract all it's (very few) apologies for the war, go back to the military government and the immediate deportation of all Koreans.
It's a unique feeling.
I'll never forget it. There isn't anything that stings quite like the injustice of looking down into the face of someone you love, and them trying to put a brave smile on it, grimacing at what had been the previously pleasant discussion about what to have for lunch and saying saying "no, it's fine, it happens" when really it's not fine, nothing about that situation is fair, and it shouldn't happen. No one trying to have fun, minding their own business, should have a reminder thrown in their faces that actually, some people regard them as subhuman, and loudly want them to suffer. Against a stream of military-styled pickup trucks, you become very aware that you are just one man, sinew, bones, soft tissue.
Nothing about a Sunday afternoon of fun should involve that for anyone, ever, it's fethed up.
This is an event, widely publicized now, which indirectly reflects on all of us. This is a hobby we share with this man. How many of you are willing to say "Yes, I'd see this man, shrug my shoulders and move along?"
The fething slippery goalposts of people trying to divert the conversation to be about "Yes, well I also hate other kinds of political extremists! Did you know communists are also very, very bad?" are missing the point appallingly hard. I know the OP is a bit strongly worded. I know the article linked by OP is VERY strongly worded. But you're all missing the point by a country mile here. But you know what? Nazis went out of their way to kill millions, and start a war that killed millions more. I think people are entitled to a strong reaction.
Because, as much as this thread FEATURES a neo-nazi, it's not really about neo-nazis. It's about us, as a community. It's about our reaction, in gaming, to someone deliberately being SO anti-social in this hobby, about bending rules and manipulating social norms just so they can signpost their repugnant views at one of OUR community events, about using OUR space to try to make an environment that accepts this kind of exterminationist, racist bs, and what we as individuals, and what we as a community would, can, and should do to make this hobby a better place, not only for ourselves, and our own personal comfort, but for everyone.
Nerds aren't only white Europeans. Nerds come in a whole, wonderful, nerdy rainbow, with fascinations in all kinds of stuff. They enrich our own nerddom with their ideas, their views, with their enthusiasms for things we hadn't even heard of, but sound pretty cool. If we deny them a place at our table, we hurt ourselves, because at the end of the day, we're all here because we really like silly nerdy stuff.
My local GW was at the periphery between the town center, and a really deprived part of town. I want to live in a world where nerdy kids who grew up poor, or from a minorty background can feel just as welcomed and comfortable walking into that GW as I do. Who can leave all the bs of microagressions, of societal expectations, of school, bullies, work, stress, whatever, at the door, and talk about skeleton warriors, can be excited about space marines, can roll dice with me, and break bread.
Exterminationists? Nazis? To that ancient question - "who will help me bake this bread?" They would shoot all the animals who were not capable of toiling in the field, would enslave their children in dangerous kitchens, and end up with a world where all eat maggot-filled flour, hiding in a concrete ruin.
This is a fething forum for playing with little space men for feth's sake. What is so hard for some of you with this? Any kind of ideology that espouses this drivel is abhorrent. This guy is a sad little scumbag. The Tourney is weak for not just giving him the boot, and for once, I actually hope GWs judicious IP lawyers are well-placed. Sod fan animations, this is what they should be going after. And really, this kind of anti-social, hate-filled, violence-promoting behavior is something that should be easy for all of us to condemn.
It's odd that it's so hard for some of you.
Holy hell - this is... this is amazing. Sometimes there is a diamond response in the... uh... other responses that are attempting to disassociate or whataboutitsm. I wish I could legitimately give you an award.
Also, as someone who has actually lived in a country ruled by a dictator and has come to America... and seeing you compare Antifa to Nazi's... it is amazingly sad. You have no idea, none, zilch, nada, of what it is to live under a dictatorships. If you think Antifa is equitable to Nazi's or even Fascists... I would dare you to live in another country and say that.
Actually I would not dare you, as you would not last - and no person should experience what I experienced growing up.
103604
Post by: Inquisitor Gideon
This is the only result that should have happened.
1
122350
Post by: Cronch
I think you are looking a bit hard to find people that defend Nazis to the point you are seeing them everywhere.
Would it hurt your feelings less if I called him alleged neo-nazi/whitepower-er/alt-righter? I mean, just because he's wearing a symbol that's a bunch of swastikas having an orgy doesn't mean he's a nazi, he could just be entirely unaware of the last 80 years of european history.
Seriously, the cope is off the charts on that post.
130024
Post by: GoldenHorde
There's no such thing as whataboutism.
It's called introspection and it's clear not only are you incapable of having it you're against the entire concept.
If you're that Upsetti spaghetti when people point out violence caused by certain -isms that's on you.
If you're pissed about being called out for looking the other way on these things, that's on you.
You either have a consistent principle on violent ideologies or you don't..
It's your choice to be an intellectual coward at the end of the day. Be my guest
The fact you presume to know exactly why people mention other violent ideologies being tolerated, and want to open it up to wider discussion is the height of arrogance.
The tribalist ism schism being pushed by certain groups is so dull and tiring.
85390
Post by: bullyboy
edit: nvm, this is turning into the shitshow that I expected
122753
Post by: DeathKorp_Rider
Need to close this thread now before it descends even further into madness
5269
Post by: lord_blackfang
GoldenHorde wrote:There's no such thing as whataboutism.
It's called introspection and it's clear not only are you incapable of having it you're against the entire concept.
If you're that Upsetti spaghetti when people point out violence caused by certain -isms that's on you.
If you're pissed about being called out for looking the other way on these things, that's on you.
You either have a consistent principle on violent ideologies or you don't..
It's your choice to be an intellectual coward at the end of the day. Be my guest
The fact you presume to know exactly why people mention other violent ideologies being tolerated, and want to open it up to wider discussion is the height of arrogance.
The tribalist ism schism being pushed by certain groups is so dull and tiring.
Cool post bruh, copy pasted directly from the far right activist playbook.
130024
Post by: GoldenHorde
Cronch wrote:
I think you are looking a bit hard to find people that defend Nazis to the point you are seeing them everywhere.
Would it hurt your feelings less if I called him alleged neo-nazi/whitepower-er/alt-righter? I mean, just because he's wearing a symbol that's a bunch of swastikas having an orgy doesn't mean he's a nazi, he could just be entirely unaware of the last 80 years of european history.
Seriously, the cope is off the charts on that post.
80 Years?
Marx was doing antisemitism long before the Nazis were even a fart in the wind.
Funny how there's an attempt try to bag up a long past of European antisemitism and ascribing it wholly to the nazis/
121131
Post by: Catulle
It's a neat demonstration of *why* it is so very important to some that these conversations cannot be permitted (hence the repeated attempts to troll for the thread closure) and simultaneously how important it is that we do continue to have them.
130024
Post by: GoldenHorde
Catulle wrote:
It's a neat demonstration of *why* it is so very important to some that these conversations cannot be permitted (hence the repeated attempts to troll for the thread closure) and simultaneously how important it is that we do continue to have them.
The neat demonstration is you abusing forum users calling them nazis when they're not.
Compared to what I am saying....that it's fair game to discuss related violent ideologies and selective taboos.
122753
Post by: DeathKorp_Rider
GoldenHorde wrote:Cronch wrote:
I think you are looking a bit hard to find people that defend Nazis to the point you are seeing them everywhere.
Would it hurt your feelings less if I called him alleged neo-nazi/whitepower-er/alt-righter? I mean, just because he's wearing a symbol that's a bunch of swastikas having an orgy doesn't mean he's a nazi, he could just be entirely unaware of the last 80 years of european history.
Seriously, the cope is off the charts on that post.
80 Years?
Marx was doing antisemitism long before the Nazis were even a fart in the wind.
Funny how there's an attempt try to bag up a long past of European antisemitism and ascribing it wholly to the nazis/
FFS man, just drop this crap. Everyone just drop it and get back to the main point of the thread.
107707
Post by: Togusa
GoldenHorde wrote: Togusa wrote:Anyways, back on topic. Who here thinks GW will make a statement about this in the coming week? Any chance that the TOs will lose GW support?
So you think its a good idea that GW should collectively punish the Spanish competitive scene for the actions of a fringe group? Wow, talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater
Did I say that? No. I asked if that is one of the OPTIONS the company might consider doing, as in "Who here thinks that the TOs will lose GW support" which is not the same thing as saying "I hope the TOs will lose GW support." Jesus Christ Dakkites, stop making these insinuations in order to START fights.
130024
Post by: GoldenHorde
Togusa wrote: GoldenHorde wrote: Togusa wrote:Anyways, back on topic. Who here thinks GW will make a statement about this in the coming week? Any chance that the TOs will lose GW support?
So you think its a good idea that GW should collectively punish the Spanish competitive scene for the actions of a fringe group?
Wow, talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater
Did I say that? No.
I asked if that is one of the OPTIONS the company might consider doing, as in "Who here thinks that the TOs will lose GW support" which is not the same thing as saying "I hope the TOs will lose GW support." Jesus Christ Dakkites, stop making these insinuations in order to START fights.
You're kind of inferring, when it's the only OPTION you mentioned. There's an insinuation right there.
So I asked you in an admitted slanted rhetorical question in which I wanted to push my opinion of such an option, in response.
So, do you think it's collective punishment or a fair option?
109034
Post by: Slipspace
posermcbogus wrote:How much rope can I be expected to give someone who views me as subhuman? Who would reduce the value of my friends to how much labor they can produce in relation to the calories they consume? Who would take the institutions I hold dear and undermine and subvert them to their own ends? Who brazenly say "I wish to pervert the justice system, exploit liberal democracy, doctor history to deny my crimes, and absolve my martyrs, at the expense of all of those institutions, which I seek to destroy, and I have no shame about the terroristic violence I wish to use for those aims", to those who would reduce my children to ratios of 'pure' blood and pseudo-scientific cranial measurements? Greater men than I would say, "just enough that their feet can't touch the ground."
For those of you who think maybe we could try to be permissive about this particular breed of extremist in civil society - ask the German Jewish people, the trade unionists, the social democrats, the conscientious objectors, the mixed-race children, the handicapped, the socialists, ad infinitum of 1930s Germany, just how well that experiment worked for their society. They might have a hard time answering you.
There is a very good reason that these groups have to endlessly go into hiding, re-group and re-brand. Very simply put, it's because by their very nature, they cannot refrain from breaking the law. There is an inevitability to their criminality, purely out of the nature of their worldview. Because that is the kind of creature a fascist is. He is a terrorist. There is nothing more to be said about someone who subscribes to an ideology of racialist war.
How would you feel as the father of a nerdy Jewish boy, coming home from this tournament, too flustered and scared to say anything at the time? As a black kid suddenly finding out that this was their partner? As any number of Spanish minorities whose inalienable right to exist as an inoffensive, innocent, beautiful and inherently valuable member of the human race, simply trying to have a fun weekend was deliberately and knowingly attacked by this man? An attack completely, if accounts are accurate, upheld and protected by the TO?
Have any of you actually been in a situation where you've encountered actual exterminationists? Like, not gakky footie hooligans who have a vague notion of like, this thing they heard of called sharia law, and have nothing even resembling comprehension of, but they've been told they wouldn't like it, but like, actual people calling for genocide?
I have.
It's unreal.
I was on a date with a Korean lover of mine, when in Osaka we took a wrong turn, and found ourselves face to face with a convoy of Imperialists, calling on the government to retract all it's (very few) apologies for the war, go back to the military government and the immediate deportation of all Koreans.
It's a unique feeling.
I'll never forget it. There isn't anything that stings quite like the injustice of looking down into the face of someone you love, and them trying to put a brave smile on it, grimacing at what had been the previously pleasant discussion about what to have for lunch and saying saying "no, it's fine, it happens" when really it's not fine, nothing about that situation is fair, and it shouldn't happen. No one trying to have fun, minding their own business, should have a reminder thrown in their faces that actually, some people regard them as subhuman, and loudly want them to suffer. Against a stream of military-styled pickup trucks, you become very aware that you are just one man, sinew, bones, soft tissue.
Nothing about a Sunday afternoon of fun should involve that for anyone, ever, it's fethed up.
This is an event, widely publicized now, which indirectly reflects on all of us. This is a hobby we share with this man. How many of you are willing to say "Yes, I'd see this man, shrug my shoulders and move along?"
The fething slippery goalposts of people trying to divert the conversation to be about "Yes, well I also hate other kinds of political extremists! Did you know communists are also very, very bad?" are missing the point appallingly hard. I know the OP is a bit strongly worded. I know the article linked by OP is VERY strongly worded. But you're all missing the point by a country mile here. But you know what? Nazis went out of their way to kill millions, and start a war that killed millions more. I think people are entitled to a strong reaction.
Because, as much as this thread FEATURES a neo-nazi, it's not really about neo-nazis. It's about us, as a community. It's about our reaction, in gaming, to someone deliberately being SO anti-social in this hobby, about bending rules and manipulating social norms just so they can signpost their repugnant views at one of OUR community events, about using OUR space to try to make an environment that accepts this kind of exterminationist, racist bs, and what we as individuals, and what we as a community would, can, and should do to make this hobby a better place, not only for ourselves, and our own personal comfort, but for everyone.
Nerds aren't only white Europeans. Nerds come in a whole, wonderful, nerdy rainbow, with fascinations in all kinds of stuff. They enrich our own nerddom with their ideas, their views, with their enthusiasms for things we hadn't even heard of, but sound pretty cool. If we deny them a place at our table, we hurt ourselves, because at the end of the day, we're all here because we really like silly nerdy stuff.
My local GW was at the periphery between the town center, and a really deprived part of town. I want to live in a world where nerdy kids who grew up poor, or from a minorty background can feel just as welcomed and comfortable walking into that GW as I do. Who can leave all the bs of microagressions, of societal expectations, of school, bullies, work, stress, whatever, at the door, and talk about skeleton warriors, can be excited about space marines, can roll dice with me, and break bread.
Exterminationists? Nazis? To that ancient question - "who will help me bake this bread?" They would shoot all the animals who were not capable of toiling in the field, would enslave their children in dangerous kitchens, and end up with a world where all eat maggot-filled flour, hiding in a concrete ruin.
This is a fething forum for playing with little space men for feth's sake. What is so hard for some of you with this? Any kind of ideology that espouses this drivel is abhorrent. This guy is a sad little scumbag. The Tourney is weak for not just giving him the boot, and for once, I actually hope GWs judicious IP lawyers are well-placed. Sod fan animations, this is what they should be going after. And really, this kind of anti-social, hate-filled, violence-promoting behavior is something that should be easy for all of us to condemn.
It's odd that it's so hard for some of you.
I weep, for I have but one exalt to give.
The last two paragraphs are the ones all the whataboutists in this thread should probably reflect on. It's deeply depressing to me how much difficulty some people ITT have condemning these neo-Nazis and how keen they are to talk about the "real" issues. Then there's the suggestion that it's OK for a tournament to allow these people in becuase, while they might well have already publicly identified with an ideology that wants to murder me and my family we've asked them to turn their t-shirts inside out, so it's all fine.
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Post by: GoldenHorde
bullyboy wrote:edit: nvm, this is turning into the shitshow that I expected
What do you expect when a normally enforced rule is selectively lifted?
You're half allowed discuss the topic, you're also seemingly allowed to call people nazis for any reason. (Thanks moderators)
Oh, those racist elements in the OP's original link..........you're not allowed to speak about that.
Give me a break. If it's wrong, then I'll soeak up about it.
You want to sweep gak under the rug like the racist BS in the original link. It's highly telling of your principles.
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Post by: Dysartes
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: GoldenHorde wrote:Cronch wrote:
I think you are looking a bit hard to find people that defend Nazis to the point you are seeing them everywhere.
Would it hurt your feelings less if I called him alleged neo-nazi/whitepower-er/alt-righter? I mean, just because he's wearing a symbol that's a bunch of swastikas having an orgy doesn't mean he's a nazi, he could just be entirely unaware of the last 80 years of european history.
Seriously, the cope is off the charts on that post.
80 Years?
Marx was doing antisemitism long before the Nazis were even a fart in the wind.
Funny how there's an attempt try to bag up a long past of European antisemitism and ascribing it wholly to the nazis/
FFS man, just drop this crap. Everyone just drop it and get back to the main point of the thread.
Looking at said poster's history in this thread, do you really think they're contributing in good faith, or rather trying to get the thread locked?
+ + +
What should these TOs do in the future? Sounds like they need something in the tournament pack - which you agree to when you sign up for the event - which allows for people to be removed at TO's discretion. Not sure on the exact wording that would be required, though.
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Post by: GoldenHorde
 Dysartes wrote:
Looking at said poster's history in this thread, do you really think they're contributing in good faith, or rather trying to get the thread locked?
How will you ever know since my posts have been censored?
Looking at past stalinist doctored history...... .he's a bad guy!
I pointed out racist elements in the original linked article. I am not stepping down from that position.
You tell me about good faith here when a BS pretense is pulled to remove your posts standing up against abusive content in the wargaming community? Then clowns turn around and claim that I am trying to get threads closed.
It's telling the same mob of people crying about representation and have a quasi religious belief that absorbing media has a 1:1 effect, not only create but selectively dismisses issues within their own media.
Who cares about false attributions and racial profiling. Who cares about the disgustingly pejorative tone they write in about people who have nothing to do with nazis.
I'll call out this BS even if I go down in flames.
The people who write such garbage are gak humans. Enjoy your stupid degenerate tribalism.
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Post by: Inquisitor Gideon
GoldenHorde wrote: Dysartes wrote:
Looking at said poster's history in this thread, do you really think they're contributing in good faith, or rather trying to get the thread locked?
How will you ever know since my posts have been censored?
Looking at past stalinist doctored history...... .he's a bad guy!
I pointed out racist elements in the original linked article. I am not stepping down from that position.
You tell me about good faith here when a BS pretense is pulled to remove your posts standing up against abusive content in the wargaming community? Then clowns turn around and claim that I am trying to get threads closed.
It's telling the same mob of people crying about representation and have a quasi religious belief that absorbing media has a 1:1 effect, not only create but selectively dismisses issues within their own media.
Who cares about false attributions and racial profiling. Who cares about the disgustingly pejorative tone they write in about people who have nothing to do with nazis.
I'll call out this BS even if I go down in flames.
The people who write such garbage are gak humans. Enjoy your stupid degenerate tribalism.
Someday you may make an intelligent comment. But it's not this day.
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Post by: Flipsiders
I don't like getting too deep into discussion of the paradox of tolerance, since it's a vague and complex topic which people have a variety of perspectives on, I do think there is an aspect of it which relates directly to both the OP's question and the discussion being held here.
One of the most beautiful parts about the United States' freedom of speech, as well as that of many other countries, is that it comes bundled with an equally-useful freedom to listen. If an American citizen encounters someone speaking in the street, their government has given them the option to choose if they wish to listen to or engage with that other person, or simply ignore them and go about their day. If the American citizen in question is in charge of a private institution such as a miniature gaming tournament, they can even exercise that freedom to eject the offending party, ensuring they will never be forced to listen to the unsavory individual again. The reason this ability is so elegantly-designed is that it does not limit the speech of the person being ignored: They can say just about anything they want (with obvious exceptions), but other people can respond by choosing to ignore them.
In terms of the OP's question, this right to ignore can obviously be employed in most countries—except Spain, apparently—to create spaces in which members of marginalized communities can be given the ability to not listen to neo-nazis and associated bigots. However, the right to ignore works equally on a personal level, and while it can sometimes be hard to ignore one's instincts and employ it, I can assure everyone here that the results are spectacular for the improvement of general discourse as well as one's personal mental health.
Let me make the implicit explicit: If you personally feel that a person in this thread is not arguing in good faith or simply seeks to irritate you or distract from the subject at hand, I would strongly advise exercising your right to ignore their comments and continue discussion with people who you find more agreeable. It's certainly done wonders for me.
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Post by: Togusa
GoldenHorde wrote: Togusa wrote: GoldenHorde wrote: Togusa wrote:Anyways, back on topic. Who here thinks GW will make a statement about this in the coming week? Any chance that the TOs will lose GW support?
So you think its a good idea that GW should collectively punish the Spanish competitive scene for the actions of a fringe group? Wow, talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater
Did I say that? No. I asked if that is one of the OPTIONS the company might consider doing, as in "Who here thinks that the TOs will lose GW support" which is not the same thing as saying "I hope the TOs will lose GW support." Jesus Christ Dakkites, stop making these insinuations in order to START fights.
You're kind of inferring, when it's the only OPTION you mentioned. There's an insinuation right there. So I asked you in an admitted slanted rhetorical question in which I wanted to push my opinion of such an option, in response. So, do you think it's collective punishment or a fair option?
Look, I'm sorry I didn't list off a bunch of other options so that we could discuss each of them in great detail. I used the nuclear option because that seems to be what humans love doing these days for anything and everything that ruffles their feathers. I don't really care if it's fair or not. I wanted to know what you all think the likely hood of Games Workshop doing something along those lines is....and some answered that it's not very likely given that Games Workshop has little influence on the event in the first place. I suppose they can make a statement along the same lines as the one from last year about these folks not being missed, but ultimately it seems there is little they can do. It also seems as though the TOs didn't have an issue with this person as they refused to do anything either. Mostly likely, we will all have moved on from this in two weeks time and it will be forgotten, just like the Cursed City debacle that I rarely see anyone bring up anymore even though many members of this forum insisted it would be a major issue that wouldn't ever be forgotten. Humans have very, very short attention spans and typically look for controversy when it's at its peak. Once it starts to die off because everyone has heard about it, it ceases to be a continuous source of discussion. No, if you want to know what my stance is on Collective punishment, I think it's fine. Is it the right thing for this situation? I do not know.
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Post by: Hecaton
What the feth is wrong with Spain's laws that they can't kick someone out of a private event for wearing offensive iconography? Something's fishy.
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Post by: GoldenHorde
Cronch wrote:To a straight, white-passing man the n*zis and their views are just another voice in the great theater of democracy.
To anyone else, it's a threat of violence based on history.
That much is clear from the thread.
NIce sexist racist comment.
I would expect no less from you.
You know who were the largest proportion of those who fought the nazis? Straight "white-passing" (whatever that means) men.
And many victims were too
Please spare your ideologue take on history.
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Post by: ph34r
Whataboutism or whataboutery (as in "what about…?") is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy, which attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving the argument.
GoldenHorde wrote:It's your choice to be an intellectual coward at the end of the day. Be my guest
Are you going to make the choice to be an intellectual bigboy and recant your "there's no such thing", or are you going to insist that a concept, a logical fallacy that you are making use of, one that objectively exists, in fact doesn't?
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Post by: GoldenHorde
ScarletRose wrote:Cronch wrote:Ah yes, the one antifa dude vs how many alt-right church/shopping center shooters? The whattaboutism is off the charts.
This isn't about if "the woke people think you're a bad person because you said gay people catching AIDS is god's punishment",
Whataboutism invention right there .
When you're so upset someone wants to say something bad about daddy, you invent nonsense.
In the business we call this a strawman.
Invent a ficitonal abhorrent statement and ascribe it to people who never said it.
What kind of intellectual cowardice is that?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ph34r wrote:Whataboutism or whataboutery (as in "what about…?") is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy, which attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving the argument.
GoldenHorde wrote:It's your choice to be an intellectual coward at the end of the day. Be my guest
Are you going to make the choice to be an intellectual bigboy and recant your "there's no such thing", or are you going to insist that a concept, a logical fallacy that you are making use of, one that objectively exists, in fact doesn't?
Just because a paradigm or model exists, doesn't mean you've effectively demonstrated that model applies or even has credibility
.
That's your logical fallacy right there. Hell, there are plenty of BS models.
Oh wow, a model exists which I can plug things into = it must work and apply.
I mean the whataboutism is wrapped in risk of itself being full of its own logical fallacies says enough of a non-starter it is.
It's meaningless, Go back to the origin of people mentioning communism. Those posters said they were equally disgusted. . Stop trying to mischaracterise that.
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Post by: ph34r
Well I'm glad that we can all agree that whataboutism does, in fact, exist.
It usually comes to mind as applicable when people discuss Nazis, and someone else says "whatabout Communists"
130024
Post by: GoldenHorde
and here it is...
Wikipedia you copypasted
"Whataboutism or whataboutery (as in "what about…?") is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy, which attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving the argument."
To an origin quotes.
CragHack wrote:All I can say is that I'm equally offended by anyone who paints a 5 pointed red star/sickle and hammer on his IG. Or the 'red gobbo revolushon', because we all know where they've taken the thing from.
Well, the quote doesn't fit the accusatory model, does it?
Just another disingenuous, dishonest shout down, standover tactic.
How boring....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ph34r wrote:Well I'm glad that we can all agree that whataboutism does, in fact, exist.
Wrong ideas exist all the time. The real reason people are crying about whataboutism is that they don't like criticism of their fan favourites.
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Post by: posermcbogus
kurhanik wrote:
This is beautifully put.
Also that interaction with nationalists sucks. All my bad experiences are from the context of being part of the "in" crowd, so they are happy to say the quiet part out loud. I can only imagine what it is like from being in the out group and having the 'quiet' part yelled at me.
Thanks dude. Just doing my bit to try to keep this thread on topic.
When the yelling bit happens, it's really kind of parasympathetic nervous system-y - your main concern is just getting somewhere safe. It's afterwards when the fight or flight switches off and you're left chewing over "what could I have done differently? Was there a more noble solution there? What if that happens again?" that I guess the emotions come on, too? I'm lucky enough to not have to live that every day. But I know people who do. And I guess it's frustrating to see when people are so happy to ignore the ongoing struggles of their fellow man when it comes to something as simple as walking down the street, or, in the case of this thread, trying to enjoy a good old bit of 40k.
fidel wrote:
Holy hell - this is... this is amazing. Sometimes there is a diamond response in the... uh... other responses that are attempting to disassociate or whataboutitsm. I wish I could legitimately give you an award.
Ahahaha, no award needed man. I feel like I was a bit dismissive in my first post in this thread, but, I think it's also been heartening to see just how many people here are saying "actually, no, this isn't right," and considering how things might change for the better. That has been good. I think there is a healthy spectrum of consensus when it comes to condemning this kind of behavior in our community, and I'm gladder for it.
Slipspace wrote:
I weep, for I have but one exalt to give.
The last two paragraphs are the ones all the whataboutists in this thread should probably reflect on. It's deeply depressing to me how much difficulty some people ITT have condemning these neo-Nazis and how keen they are to talk about the "real" issues. Then there's the suggestion that it's OK for a tournament to allow these people in becuase, while they might well have already publicly identified with an ideology that wants to murder me and my family we've asked them to turn their t-shirts inside out, so it's all fine.
Ayy, thanks man. I still don't really know what exalts are, but maybe one day Yakface will unveil the secrets of what they do to us.
I do really appreciate the kind words though. I was a couple of bevvies deep, looking at dakka when I saw this thread re-surfacing, and idk, it just felt like a lot of people don't properly realize just how sheltered they are, how deep into their bubble or echo-chamber or whatever fething wormhole their heads are at that they can't see this for what it is. And it's a shame that a small number of loud voices are trying to de-rail this thread about player conduct in the 40k community, for reasons that I really, for the life of me cannot understand
Anyway, I've said my piece I guess. I'm not sure what else I could say, unless GW, the guy in the photo, or the Tournament decide to make some kind of statement on the matter. Like Togusa says, I'm sure this'll be yesterday's lunch in no time, and just like cursed city, there probably won't be a real answer. Which is a shame, but as we've seen over the last 7 pages, this is a pretty radioactive topic. I'm sure all 3 of those parties want to touch it as little as possible.
105865
Post by: Rolsheen
I'm not sure there's been another member of this forum that has been disliked by so many people so fast, that has had as many comments deleted and threads locked as Golden.
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Post by: GoldenHorde
 Rolsheen wrote:I'm not sure there's been another member of this forum that has been disliked by so many people so fast, that has had as many comments deleted and threads locked as Golden.
People don't like to be challenged into thinking about themselves and the things that they say especially when it's contextually racist and bigoted
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Post by: posermcbogus
This is all a big meta mind game and he's speedrunning dakkadakka.
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Post by: insaniak
This would seem to have gone as far as it's going to. Thanks to those who made an effort to stick to the topic.
Moving on.
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