We’re sure it hasn’t escaped your notice that a lot of things are more expensive than they used to be: food, materials, transport – essentials and luxuries alike. Stuff costs more to make and more to move, and Warhammer is not immune to these changes.
This means that from the 6th March we’ll be increasing some prices.
The average change for plastic kits is about 6%. As an example of what you can expect, a Battle Sisters Squad goes up £1.50 from £36 to £37.50.*
We understand that no one likes a price rise. We’ve done our best to keep prices down on some of your hobby essentials, and we’re giving you a heads-up now so that you have plenty of time to take advantage of current prices.
What is changing:
Plastic miniatures
Forge World and Citadel resin miniatures
Standard and Artificer Citadel brushes
Spray paints
What is not changing:
Starter sets
Paint sets
Paint pots
Citadel Tools
Codexes, rulebooks and battletomes
Synthetic STC brushes
JimmyWolf87 wrote: Unfortunate but it is what it is. It's inevitable anyway but the current UK economy just made a hike even more of a certainty.
Looking forward to the regular glut of You-tubers pointing to this news as the death of the company and 'printer goes brrrr' commentary.
Indeed. Real terms inflation in the UK is at 9.2%, so a 6.5% increase is actually pretty low.
I'm actually quite surprised a few things aren't going up (though I wonder if on paint it's because the whispers about rebottling the entire range are true).
Does "starter sets" include Combat Patrols? Some of them will look extremely good as a result if so.
I think at this moment it would only be news if they didn't rise the prices.
Things like the Astra Militarum kits have been rising like 5-10% each year since at least 2019.
It is a luxury hobby indeed.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: That's two price rises in a short space of time, if you count the indirect online discounters price rise (which I certainly do).
Depends. If it’s only GW Direct, and not Wholesale getting the further 6%? It’s partially restored the discount percentage.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: That's two price rises in a short space of time, if you count the indirect online discounters price rise (which I certainly do).
Depends. If it’s only GW Direct, and not Wholesale getting the further 6%? It’s partially restored the discount percentage.
I’ve not explained this well at all.
Indeed, if wholesale prices are staying the same this is essentially just the same price rise being applied to GW itself.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: That's two price rises in a short space of time, if you count the indirect online discounters price rise (which I certainly do).
Depends. If it’s only GW Direct, and not Wholesale getting the further 6%? It’s partially restored the discount percentage.
I’ve not explained this well at all.
To anybody who shops at Element, Wayland etc it's going to be two price rises, obviously not including starter sets/paints.
I can't imagine them restoring the original discount to online retailers, if that's what you meant?
Or have I misunderstood?
EDIT: I think that wholesale prices will be affected by the rise. I can't see why GW wouldn't include it?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: That’s what I was getting at. I am not words good today. All used at work.
That won't happen – trade (or 'wholesale') prices are a percentage of listed retail price. That percentage won't rise but the price paid will as the retail price increases. They'd have to actively increase the trade discount to leave trade prices where they are.
I member last year that Wargames atlantic did grant us some insights into the higher production costs for raw material.. something along 6 cents/ box i believe, which they told they'd just absorb.
Meanwhile GW slpas down a whole 1.5£ on top of their already orbitant prices. Ontop of the last round of increases.
Granted GW produces in the UK but frankly other countries with higher standing currency shouldn't increase for inflation alas, gw gonna gw and nickle and dime everyone they can.
Is this the second year they pull this bs consequently? ... idk how long will this *profit last until too much is too much. I mean ffs core kits are crossing 50$ marks like normal these days
Yup, inflation has been like 300% over the last ten years looking at GW prices, it's rough.
The economics of charging more to fewer consumers just works. Of course it's always awkward to constantly hear how the country has too much individual debt, people are spending way more than they can afford, but when it comes to luxury gaming expenses every fanboi says, "That's not me! These prices are fine!"
aracersss wrote: Is this the second year they pull this bs consequently? ... idk how long will this *profit last until too much is too much. I mean ffs core kits are crossing 50$ marks like normal these days
aracersss wrote: Is this the second year they pull this bs consequently? ... idk how long will this *profit last until too much is too much. I mean ffs core kits are crossing 50$ marks like normal these days
You do understand what inflation is, right? The numerical value of a price always goes up over time even if its value relative to other prices remains constant.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote: I member last year that Wargames atlantic did grant us some insights into the higher production costs for raw material.. something along 6 cents/ box i believe, which they told they'd just absorb.
It's almost like raw materials are only a small percentage of the cost of the finished product.
Not Online!!! wrote: I member last year that Wargames atlantic did grant us some insights into the higher production costs for raw material.. something along 6 cents/ box i believe, which they told they'd just absorb.
Meanwhile GW slpas down a whole 1.5£ on top of their already orbitant prices. Ontop of the last round of increases.
Granted GW produces in the UK but frankly other countries with higher standing currency shouldn't increase for inflation alas, gw gonna gw and nickle and dime everyone they can.
Wargames Atlantic don’t have stores to maintain. Do they have their own factory? What sort of scale are they? Which country are they based in?
Because it’s more than just raw materials. The U.K. is taking a battering from power costs. Households have a pricing cap (which isn’t a cap) and some temporary government relief. Businesses do not. Small businesses which used to be profitable are closing down, because they can no longer afford or absorb their power costs - to a degree they can’t really pass on to the consumer, as it would push their prices higher than many can afford.
It sucks. But please don’t present false equivalencies.
aracersss wrote: Is this the second year they pull this bs consequently? ... idk how long will this *profit last until too much is too much. I mean ffs core kits are crossing 50$ marks like normal these days
You do understand what inflation is, right? The numerical value of a price always goes up over time even if its value relative to other prices remains constant.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote: I member last year that Wargames atlantic did grant us some insights into the higher production costs for raw material.. something along 6 cents/ box i believe, which they told they'd just absorb.
It's almost like raw materials are only a small percentage of the cost of the finished product.
Considering last years' excuse for GW was higher raw material cost in the UK it's almost as if GW is gonna nickle and dime for no reason other than people letting them get away with it.
frankelee wrote: The economics of charging more to fewer consumers just works. Of course it's always awkward to constantly hear how the country has too much individual debt, people are spending way more than they can afford, but when it comes to luxury gaming expenses every fanboi says, "That's not me! These prices are fine!"
People say it because it's true. Even at $50/box for basic troops 40k is still dirt cheap relative to other adult hobbies. That $50 box will get you hours of building and painting time, then years of gaming. If you only buy new models once you finish painting the stuff you already have and only buy things you actually need the monthly cost for GW games is very small. It's only prohibitively expensive for the people who have 4-5 figure piles of shame and keep impulse buying every single new release just in case they want to have it.
I think this price rise is probably understandable as it's happening across the industry. I've seen similar recently from Warlord, various FLGS reducing their free shipping and the like. Every business in the UK is feeling the squeeze.
Contrast this with the late 00s and early 10s when there were actually perennial price rises, but with a relatively calm economy at the time (no pandemic turmoil, no Brexit). I don't like it, and lots of people being pushed into poverty at the moment will be able to afford even less, but it's a sign of the times unfortunately.
Not Online!!! wrote: I member last year that Wargames atlantic did grant us some insights into the higher production costs for raw material.. something along 6 cents/ box i believe, which they told they'd just absorb.
Meanwhile GW slpas down a whole 1.5£ on top of their already orbitant prices. Ontop of the last round of increases.
Granted GW produces in the UK but frankly other countries with higher standing currency shouldn't increase for inflation alas, gw gonna gw and nickle and dime everyone they can.
Wargames Atlantic don’t have stores to maintain. Do they have their own factory? What sort of scale are they? Which country are they based in?
Because it’s more than just raw materials. The U.K. is taking a battering from power costs. Households have a pricing cap (which isn’t a cap) and some temporary government relief. Businesses do not. Small businesses which used to be profitable are closing down, because they can no longer afford or absorb their power costs - to a degree they can’t really pass on to the consumer, as it would push their prices higher than many can afford.
It sucks. But please don’t present false equivalencies.
they produce in the USA, moved their production at the time over and dealt with the same nonsense. hence why at the time GW's increase especially on old kits like the berzerkers was laughable.
And again they (GW) sell a lot of stuff outside of the UK, not every currency tanked over night because of some badly thought out and implemented decisions mad doc.
Jeez I got here a bit late and the Warden Clans really moved quickly on this one.
Price increase- not cool. I don't really understand why people get so spun up trying to defend them, but great just keep on keeping on until you can't find anyone to play against.
Inflation is ridiculous here. Like, proper mental. As I said, formerly profitable businesses are closing because increases in electricity and gas prices has pushed them into the red, to the degree simply increasing prices won’t help, as to offset they’d price themselves out of pocket.
That’s well beyond GW’s control. The price rise still sucks, but folk painting it as corporate greed are short sighted at best, deliberately disingenuous at worst.
caladancid wrote: Jeez I got here a bit late and the Warden Clans really moved quickly on this one.
Price increase- not cool. I don't really understand why people get so spun up trying to defend them, but great just keep on keeping on until you can't find anyone to play against.
I'm not defending a GW price raise, but simultaneously do you get outraged at fuel pumps and in the bread section etc?
Automatically Appended Next Post: On 2nd thoughts I think we know why the WE combat patrol was delayed.
Not Online!!! wrote: I member last year that Wargames atlantic did grant us some insights into the higher production costs for raw material.. something along 6 cents/ box i believe, which they told they'd just absorb.
Meanwhile GW slpas down a whole 1.5£ on top of their already orbitant prices. Ontop of the last round of increases.
Granted GW produces in the UK but frankly other countries with higher standing currency shouldn't increase for inflation alas, gw gonna gw and nickle and dime everyone they can.
Wargames Atlantic don’t have stores to maintain. Do they have their own factory? What sort of scale are they? Which country are they based in?
Because it’s more than just raw materials. The U.K. is taking a battering from power costs. Households have a pricing cap (which isn’t a cap) and some temporary government relief. Businesses do not. Small businesses which used to be profitable are closing down, because they can no longer afford or absorb their power costs - to a degree they can’t really pass on to the consumer, as it would push their prices higher than many can afford.
It sucks. But please don’t present false equivalencies.
they produce in the USA, moved their production at the time over and dealt with the same nonsense. hence why at the time GW's increase especially on old kits like the berzerkers was laughable.
And again they (GW) sell a lot of stuff outside of the UK, not every currency tanked over night because of some badly thought out and implemented decisions mad doc.
No but inflation being higher than usual isn't uk thing.
As is 6% is lower than usual inflation so relatively speaking models are becoming more affordable
caladancid wrote: Jeez I got here a bit late and the Warden Clans really moved quickly on this one.
Price increase- not cool. I don't really understand why people get so spun up trying to defend them, but great just keep on keeping on until you can't find anyone to play against.
I'm not defending a GW price raise, but simultaneously do you get outraged at fuel pumps and in the bread section etc?
YES!
Sadly I'm not a bread nor fuel forum to rage on :(
But yeah I've noticed prices going up by significant amounts everywhere; food has crept up a lot even at the most affordable places like Aldi - £2 for butter now!
I think we can safely assume this will apply to the rest of the world, too. Given how GW does things, the 6% increase will be applied to the local price regardless of how much that actually is when converted to pounds sterling.
I wonder if GW realizes this ain't the 2010s any more. The more GW raises prices, the more 3d printers go brrrrrrrrrrr...
A pint of Bitter, around August time, was £3.90 in my local. It’s now £4.70, and has been since November time, sometimes £4.80. Same pint. Same pub. Completely different cost.
I don’t particularly like it, but I understand the economics behind it all the same.
caladancid wrote: I don't really understand why people get so spun up trying to defend them, but great just keep on keeping on until you can't find anyone to play against.
Because we're tired of people hating on GW for doing what every single profitable business does and not understanding economics beyond "GW SHOUDL GIVE ME CHEAPER TOYS". Prices always go up over time and GW is still cheap unless you have no impulse control.
Inflation is ridiculous here. Like, proper mental. As I said, formerly profitable businesses are closing because increases in electricity and gas prices has pushed them into the red, to the degree simply increasing prices won’t help, as to offset they’d price themselves out of pocket.
That’s well beyond GW’s control. The price rise still sucks, but folk painting it as corporate greed are short sighted at best, deliberately disingenuous at worst.
I am sorry, mad doc but explain to me, whilest the local inflation is 3.2 % and the UK's is something like 10.5 why i should PAY more in a currency that in relation is worth more now to GW? And already had to pay more because GW' likes to have magical currency exchange rates to the rest of the world?
Correct would be to increase in the countries to their inflation rate if you priced according to the country you sold in to beginn with, or if you fear for customers at lower than it and take that on the earnings if you are concerned about getting rid of your stockpile, because let's not pretend GW didn't have some seriously fat years the last few ones.
Not Online!!! wrote: I am sorry, mad doc but explain to me, whilest the local inflation is 3.2 % and the UK's is something like 10.5 why i should PAY more in a currency that in relation is worth more now to GW? And already had to pay more because GW' likes to have magical currency exchange rates to the rest of the world?
Correct would be to increase in the countries to their inflation rate, or if you fear for customers at lower than it and take that on the earnings if you are concerned about getting rid of your stockpile, because let's not pretend GW didn't have some seriously fat years the last few ones.
Because GW, like every business, does not care about "fair". GW doesn't care one bit about your inflation rate because your inflation rate is not what determines their own finances. If anything the fact that your inflation rate is less than the UK rate means that GW should be more willing to raise prices in your country because the average resident of your country has more hobby money available to absorb the price increase, while a UK resident is more likely to be struggling to cover their food/rent/etc expenses.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I wonder what expenses they expect their customers to cut from their lives in order to continue feeding the habit.
Who needs food or shelter when you have the precious little gems of wonder that are Games Workshop miniatures? (Or however that bit of phrasing went.)
What’s the alternative though?
First, keep in mind GW’s sole responsibility is to the Shareholders. And that is to be as profitable as possible to maximise returns.
Now. U.K. inflation is ridiculous. Let’s not go into the whys and wherefores because Dakka Rules. But if you want support evidence it’s easy enough to find online. This will have hit GW’s profit margin, reducing it.
If they do nothing, they’re not meeting their responsibility to their Shareholders.
If they put their prices up to recover their profit margin? Well it could impact sales, sure, and profits may dip all the same. But unlike doing nothing, that’s not a guaranteed dip or reduction.
Simply laying off staff isn’t going to help either, such is the daft level of U.K. inflation.
Nobody has to like it, but please don’t pretend it’s not the driving factor.
Inflation is ridiculous here. Like, proper mental. As I said, formerly profitable businesses are closing because increases in electricity and gas prices has pushed them into the red, to the degree simply increasing prices won’t help, as to offset they’d price themselves out of pocket.
That’s well beyond GW’s control. The price rise still sucks, but folk painting it as corporate greed are short sighted at best, deliberately disingenuous at worst.
I am sorry, mad doc but explain to me, whilest the local inflation is 3.2 % and the UK's is something like 10.5 why i should PAY more in a currency that in relation is worth more now to GW? And already had to pay more because GW' likes to have magical currency exchange rates to the rest of the world?
Correct would be to increase in the countries to their inflation rate if you priced according to the country you sold in to beginn with, or if you fear for customers at lower than it and take that on the earnings if you are concerned about getting rid of your stockpile, because let's not pretend GW didn't have some seriously fat years the last few ones.
On that you’d need to ask someone with more than a rudimentary understanding of economics. Because whilst I myself don’t have the answer to your question, that doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
Though given the majority of their goods are manufactured in the U.K.? I’m not sure another country having more of a handle on inflation really comes into it.
Not Online!!! wrote: I am sorry, mad doc but explain to me, whilest the local inflation is 3.2 % and the UK's is something like 10.5 why i should PAY more in a currency that in relation is worth more now to GW? And already had to pay more because GW' likes to have magical currency exchange rates to the rest of the world?
Correct would be to increase in the countries to their inflation rate, or if you fear for customers at lower than it and take that on the earnings if you are concerned about getting rid of your stockpile, because let's not pretend GW didn't have some seriously fat years the last few ones.
Because GW, like every business, does not care about "fair". GW doesn't care one bit about your inflation rate because your inflation rate is not what determines their own finances. If anything the fact that your inflation rate is less than the UK rate means that GW should be more willing to raise prices in your country because the average resident of your country has more hobby money available to absorb the price increase, while a UK resident is more likely to be struggling to cover their food/rent/etc expenses.
Fair never once was used, learn to read.
And gw will care about inflation rates of diffrent currencies merely because currency is a tool to invest in ergo more sales in the USA means that the $ they earned will be worth more than the punds they earned in their home market by the diffrence in value of said currencies. At that point about 3 % more.
I think the large tank prices (Dorn and Repulsor) are a bit much tbh. For what a Dorn offers in game, it's a bad value proposition. Eh, EBay will offer discounts.
Not Online!!! wrote: Fair never once was used, learn to read.
And gw will care about inflation rates of diffrent currencies merely because currency is a tool to invest in.
You didn't use the word "fair" but your argument of "why i should PAY more in a currency that in relation is worth more now to GW" is an argument about fairness. The entire premise is that it's unfair for you to have a price increase based on UK inflation and that there's some kind of fair price expectation that GW is violating.
Inflation is ridiculous here. Like, proper mental. As I said, formerly profitable businesses are closing because increases in electricity and gas prices has pushed them into the red, to the degree simply increasing prices won’t help, as to offset they’d price themselves out of pocket.
That’s well beyond GW’s control. The price rise still sucks, but folk painting it as corporate greed are short sighted at best, deliberately disingenuous at worst.
Why can’t we hope GW learns from the people mentioned n your paragraph above, or end up sharing their fate?
Even if this one decision was understandable, GW is teetering on a mountain of bad decisions and customer-unfriendly practices stretching back more than a decade. They don’t deserve a pass on facing a backlash as a consequence for the sun or their decisions.
Inflation is ridiculous here. Like, proper mental. As I said, formerly profitable businesses are closing because increases in electricity and gas prices has pushed them into the red, to the degree simply increasing prices won’t help, as to offset they’d price themselves out of pocket.
That’s well beyond GW’s control. The price rise still sucks, but folk painting it as corporate greed are short sighted at best, deliberately disingenuous at worst.
I am sorry, mad doc but explain to me, whilest the local inflation is 3.2 % and the UK's is something like 10.5 why i should PAY more in a currency that in relation is worth more now to GW? And already had to pay more because GW' likes to have magical currency exchange rates to the rest of the world?
Correct would be to increase in the countries to their inflation rate if you priced according to the country you sold in to beginn with, or if you fear for customers at lower than it and take that on the earnings if you are concerned about getting rid of your stockpile, because let's not pretend GW didn't have some seriously fat years the last few ones.
If they don't design, produce or operate out of your country, then their overheads/production costs are all increased relative to where it occurs - the UK. It doesn't cost them less to produce and ship the product to your country magically.
Not Online!!! wrote: I member last year that Wargames atlantic did grant us some insights into the higher production costs for raw material.. something along 6 cents/ box i believe, which they told they'd just absorb.
Meanwhile GW slpas down a whole 1.5£ on top of their already orbitant prices. Ontop of the last round of increases.
Granted GW produces in the UK but frankly other countries with higher standing currency shouldn't increase for inflation alas, gw gonna gw and nickle and dime everyone they can.
Wargames Atlantic don’t have stores to maintain. Do they have their own factory? What sort of scale are they? Which country are they based in?
Because it’s more than just raw materials. The U.K. is taking a battering from power costs. Households have a pricing cap (which isn’t a cap) and some temporary government relief. Businesses do not. Small businesses which used to be profitable are closing down, because they can no longer afford or absorb their power costs - to a degree they can’t really pass on to the consumer, as it would push their prices higher than many can afford.
It sucks. But please don’t present false equivalencies.
they produce in the USA, moved their production at the time over and dealt with the same nonsense. hence why at the time GW's increase especially on old kits like the berzerkers was laughable.
And again they (GW) sell a lot of stuff outside of the UK, not every currency tanked over night because of some badly thought out and implemented decisions mad doc.
No but inflation being higher than usual isn't uk thing.
As is 6% is lower than usual inflation so relatively speaking models are becoming more affordable
“More affordable”? Do you think pay rises with inflation, or has in a generation?
Not Online!!! wrote: I member last year that Wargames atlantic did grant us some insights into the higher production costs for raw material.. something along 6 cents/ box i believe, which they told they'd just absorb.
Meanwhile GW slpas down a whole 1.5£ on top of their already orbitant prices. Ontop of the last round of increases.
Granted GW produces in the UK but frankly other countries with higher standing currency shouldn't increase for inflation alas, gw gonna gw and nickle and dime everyone they can.
Wargames Atlantic don’t have stores to maintain. Do they have their own factory? What sort of scale are they? Which country are they based in?
Because it’s more than just raw materials. The U.K. is taking a battering from power costs. Households have a pricing cap (which isn’t a cap) and some temporary government relief. Businesses do not. Small businesses which used to be profitable are closing down, because they can no longer afford or absorb their power costs - to a degree they can’t really pass on to the consumer, as it would push their prices higher than many can afford.
It sucks. But please don’t present false equivalencies.
they produce in the USA, moved their production at the time over and dealt with the same nonsense. hence why at the time GW's increase especially on old kits like the berzerkers was laughable.
And again they (GW) sell a lot of stuff outside of the UK, not every currency tanked over night because of some badly thought out and implemented decisions mad doc.
No but inflation being higher than usual isn't uk thing.
As is 6% is lower than usual inflation so relatively speaking models are becoming more affordable
“More affordable”? Do you think pay rises with inflation, or has in a generation?
If the price went up with inflation then they'd cost more, it didn't go up as much as inflation, so costs less than it should.
A pint of Bitter, around August time, was £3.90 in my local. It’s now £4.70, and has been since November time, sometimes £4.80. Same pint. Same pub. Completely different cost.
I don’t particularly like it, but I understand the economics behind it all the same.
You just mentioned a bunch of companies going out of business, and I know you’ve been following the energy/heating cost crisis. Do you think this is a sustainable attitude for a luxury business to have?
A pint of Bitter, around August time, was £3.90 in my local. It’s now £4.70, and has been since November time, sometimes £4.80. Same pint. Same pub. Completely different cost.
I don’t particularly like it, but I understand the economics behind it all the same.
You just mentioned a bunch of companies going out of business, and I know you’ve been following the energy/heating cost crisis. Do you think this is a sustainable attitude for a luxury business to have?
Yes, in the short term. Do you think tanking the companies value is a sustainable attitude for any company?
A pint of Bitter, around August time, was £3.90 in my local. It’s now £4.70, and has been since November time, sometimes £4.80. Same pint. Same pub. Completely different cost.
I don’t particularly like it, but I understand the economics behind it all the same.
You just mentioned a bunch of companies going out of business, and I know you’ve been following the energy/heating cost crisis. Do you think this is a sustainable attitude for a luxury business to have?
The problem is everything goes up in price; so people spend less; so everything goes up in price; so people spend less; so everything goes up in price.
It seems to be the consumer model we are in - everything keeps going up until it hits a breaking point then it all comes crashing down and we start over again.
Not Online!!! wrote: I am sorry, mad doc but explain to me, whilest the local inflation is 3.2 % and the UK's is something like 10.5 why i should PAY more in a currency that in relation is worth more now to GW? And already had to pay more because GW' likes to have magical currency exchange rates to the rest of the world?
Correct would be to increase in the countries to their inflation rate, or if you fear for customers at lower than it and take that on the earnings if you are concerned about getting rid of your stockpile, because let's not pretend GW didn't have some seriously fat years the last few ones.
Because GW, like every business, does not care about "fair". GW doesn't care one bit about your inflation rate because your inflation rate is not what determines their own finances. If anything the fact that your inflation rate is less than the UK rate means that GW should be more willing to raise prices in your country because the average resident of your country has more hobby money available to absorb the price increase, while a UK resident is more likely to be struggling to cover their food/rent/etc expenses.
And you still buy from this company? Do you still try to introduce friends to this hobby?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Do you think this is a sustainable attitude for a luxury business to have?
Why not? GW is clearly working with a business model focused on long-term committed players with money to spend and their prices are still cheap relative to adult hobbies unless you have very poor impulse control (in which case you're a whale and GW loves you).
Love these threads. they are just excellent exercises in ineffectual raging.
GW doesn't raise prices because raw materials increase in price, or because of inflation, or for any other external reason. they raise prices for the same reason any professionally managed company does: they did a market study, and determined that they should change the price, and that the market would bear a greater price.
TL;DR - GW raises prices for the same reason a dog licks his balls... because they can.
Inflation is ridiculous here. Like, proper mental. As I said, formerly profitable businesses are closing because increases in electricity and gas prices has pushed them into the red, to the degree simply increasing prices won’t help, as to offset they’d price themselves out of pocket.
That’s well beyond GW’s control. The price rise still sucks, but folk painting it as corporate greed are short sighted at best, deliberately disingenuous at worst.
I am sorry, mad doc but explain to me, whilest the local inflation is 3.2 % and the UK's is something like 10.5 why i should PAY more in a currency that in relation is worth more now to GW? And already had to pay more because GW' likes to have magical currency exchange rates to the rest of the world?
Correct would be to increase in the countries to their inflation rate if you priced according to the country you sold in to beginn with, or if you fear for customers at lower than it and take that on the earnings if you are concerned about getting rid of your stockpile, because let's not pretend GW didn't have some seriously fat years the last few ones.
If they don't design, produce or operate out of your country, then their overheads/production costs are all increased relative to where it occurs - the UK. It doesn't cost them less to produce and ship the product to your country magically.
Again, their production cost increased in £, the value of the currency they earned increased however aswell depending where they sold comparatively to the pounds loss in value. Nobody forces GW to automatically convert one currency into another. Contrary it'd be smart right now for them not to convert any that loses less value than the pound.
A pint of Bitter, around August time, was £3.90 in my local. It’s now £4.70, and has been since November time, sometimes £4.80. Same pint. Same pub. Completely different cost.
I don’t particularly like it, but I understand the economics behind it all the same.
You just mentioned a bunch of companies going out of business, and I know you’ve been following the energy/heating cost crisis. Do you think this is a sustainable attitude for a luxury business to have?
The problem is everything goes up in price; so people spend less; so everything goes up in price; so people spend less; so everything goes up in price.
It seems to be the consumer model we are in - everything keeps going up until it hits a breaking point then it all comes crashing down and we start over again.
This is what I expect to happen. They will squeeze out all of their average customers, and then find the less economically vulnerable customers either can’t sustain them alone or give up when the community is gone.
It boggles me that people can look at this endless cycle of prices going up and costs going up and salaries stagnating and think any action playing into the cycle is good for business (outside of the extremely short term play for shareholders, which as we know has never had harmful effects on businesses or the economy).
A pint of Bitter, around August time, was £3.90 in my local. It’s now £4.70, and has been since November time, sometimes £4.80. Same pint. Same pub. Completely different cost.
I don’t particularly like it, but I understand the economics behind it all the same.
You just mentioned a bunch of companies going out of business, and I know you’ve been following the energy/heating cost crisis. Do you think this is a sustainable attitude for a luxury business to have?
Yes, in the short term. Do you think tanking the companies value is a sustainable attitude for any company?
A controlled adjustment of business practices to keep up with the changing times seems more sustainable long term than riding the tiger into the wall of the next economic collapse. How long do you think they can keep raising prices while their customer base has decreasing funds for luxury goods? Indefinitely? Really?
caladancid wrote: I don't really understand why people get so spun up trying to defend them, but great just keep on keeping on until you can't find anyone to play against.
Because we're tired of people hating on GW for doing what every single profitable business does and not understanding economics beyond "GW SHOUDL GIVE ME CHEAPER TOYS". Prices always go up over time and GW is still cheap unless you have no impulse control.
You can be as tired as you want, you will have plenty of time to rest once existing customers tap out and new ones aren't starting because of the entry cost.
Not Online!!! wrote: Again, their production cost increased in £, the value of the currency they earned increased however aswell depending where they sold comparatively to the pounds loss in value. Nobody forces GW to automatically convert one currency into another. Contrary it'd be smart right now for them not to convert any that loses less value than the pound.
That's not how it works. GW doesn't have separate businesses in each country that are evaluated individually. If GW loses £50 million profit from increased costs in the UK then that £50 million needs to be offset by increased revenue, wherever it comes from. Price increases in your country are just as valid as a source of increased revenue as price increases in any other country and the only question is how high GW can increase those prices before the increased per-unit price is offset by loss of volume.
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BobtheInquisitor wrote: Why should I be quiet? GW’s bad behavior spills over into other parts of the gaming world and affects everyone for the worse.
What "bad behavior" is there? GW is doing what every well-run company does: maximizing their profits and shareholder value. The only reason any company sells at lower prices than GW is because they are worried that they have an inferior product where their only route to competing with GW is to beat them on price. If they could get away with it every single one of them would sell at 10x GW's prices and gleefully pocket the extra profit.
caladancid wrote: You can be as tired as you want, you will have plenty of time to rest once existing customers tap out and new ones aren't starting because of the entry cost.
Entry cost for GW games is dirt cheap relative to other adult hobbies.
caladancid wrote: I don't really understand why people get so spun up trying to defend them, but great just keep on keeping on until you can't find anyone to play against.
Because we're tired of people hating on GW for doing what every single profitable business does and not understanding economics beyond "GW SHOUDL GIVE ME CHEAPER TOYS". Prices always go up over time and GW is still cheap unless you have no impulse control.
You can be as tired as you want, you will have plenty of time to rest once existing customers tap out and new ones aren't starting because of the entry cost.
Not Online!!! wrote: Again, their production cost increased in £, the value of the currency they earned increased however aswell depending where they sold comparatively to the pounds loss in value. Nobody forces GW to automatically convert one currency into another. Contrary it'd be smart right now for them not to convert any that loses less value than the pound.
That's not really true.
There is a loose correlation between the two, but it's affected by a lot of macroeconomic factors. The Eurozone has broadly similar levels of inflation to the UK but the currency has still strengthened a little against the pound.
caladancid wrote: I don't really understand why people get so spun up trying to defend them, but great just keep on keeping on until you can't find anyone to play against.
Because we're tired of people hating on GW for doing what every single profitable business does and not understanding economics beyond "GW SHOUDL GIVE ME CHEAPER TOYS". Prices always go up over time and GW is still cheap unless you have no impulse control.
You can be as tired as you want, you will have plenty of time to rest once existing customers tap out and new ones aren't starting because of the entry cost.
Have listened that claim 26 years and counting.
The prices will continue to go up either because GW feels like raising them or because "reasons".
GW raises their prices almost every year.
I'm shocked people still pay full price for GW products.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: “More affordable”? Do you think pay rises with inflation, or has in a generation?
In the UK, yes. Not in the last nine months, which is, y'know, why rampant inflation is bad, but yes, over a twenty year basis pay generally does rise with CPI inflation.
Aecus Decimus wrote: Entry cost for GW games is dirt cheap relative to other adult hobbies.
of course you can compare "gaming" to Hang Gliding or driving sports and argue that it is cheaper
but you don't, the same way as you don't compare a PS5 to Hang Gliding and argue that even at 3 times MSRP it is still cheaper than a Glider, or just a fraction of a Porsche 911
that is not an argument, that is just telling us that within the "gaming" hobby GW reached a point were you cannot compare it to other games but need to reach out to different hobbies to make the point that is is still reasonable priced
you compare games to other other games and when a full 40k army + books costs more than a PS5 + 1 game you have a real argument for why GW is expensive and the PS5 is the better deal for an adult hobby
and when the boardgame community goes bonkers because of the price of SW Shatterpoint, while the GW fanboys come up that the more expensive (with less content) Kill Team box is such great value and still cheaper than other adult hobbies, there is something wrong
and unless the Inflation in the UK in the past 20 years was not 200%, GWs price raise is not based in inflation at all
“More affordable”? Do you think pay rises with inflation, or has in a generation?
I know my salary is more now than equilavent was 20 year ago so...yeah.
We just had unions negotiate wage increases tad higher than inflation.
Prices, wages, they all rise. Not always at pace but if wages didn't go up nobody would be able to afford anything by now.
1982 my current wage absolutely speaking would be 1/3 of what it is now.
That’s great. However, I live in the UK and work in the public sector. I’ve had 13 years of pay freezes and below inflation pay rises. My wage is worth about 20% less in real terms than it was 13 years ago.
I know exactly who’s to blame. Dakka rules won’t let me say it, but it certainly isn’t Toy soldier manufacturers. I don’t blame GW for putting up their prices 6% when many food items have gone up as much as 50% in the last year and my gas bill has more than doubled despite consciously cutting back on the amount I use.
He, yet another GW price rise wow. I just idly started glancing through their webstore and am boggled at the prices of some of the stuff. How many price rises in how many years have we had anyways? Was it 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, and 2023? Or did they skip a year? I guess GW was successful in one thing: I legit don't remember at this point the price of some of the units. I'm pretty sure for example a Chimera was 38$ a few years ago, is 55$ now, and 6% increase would make it 58.30$
Also I wonder if it will be a flat 6% the rest of the world or if they will cook up their GW magic to make it cost even more.
Oh well, less money GW gets from me I guess. Might look in to see if I need some specific thing before the price rise but otherwise I'll just continue my trend of spending less and less at GW every year.
And you still buy from this company? Do you still try to introduce friends to this hobby?
Do you? If not, please be quiet.
I like that the question was avoided entirely here LOL
If you care that much sure, I don't actively induct new players but I certainly wouldn't put them off the hobby. I do still buy warhammer but almost exclusively through 3rd party discounters.
GrosseSax wrote: It feels like the US market is unfairly shouldering the burden of these price hikes.
Well, for every price increase, the more I realize I no longer need Games Workshop to play Warhammer.
Almost everything from cars to clothing made by a US company is much more expensive in the UK. Regional pricing is a thing. I’m not defending it, but it is how all international businesses operate.
you compare games to other other games and when a full 40k army + books costs more than a PS5 + 1 game you have a real argument for why GW is expensive and the PS5 is the better deal for an adult hobby
Surely a fairer comparison would be to a console with multiple games?
caladancid wrote: Jeez I got here a bit late and the Warden Clans really moved quickly on this one.
Price increase- not cool. I don't really understand why people get so spun up trying to defend them, but great just keep on keeping on until you can't find anyone to play against.
you compare games to other other games and when a full 40k army + books costs more than a PS5 + 1 game you have a real argument for why GW is expensive and the PS5 is the better deal for an adult hobby
Surely a fairer comparison would be to a console with multiple games?
why multiple games? You can compare multiple GW games with a console and multiple games, than the console is equal the table and terrain you buy, and the games are equal rulebooks and armies
kurhanik wrote: Also I wonder if it will be a flat 6% the rest of the world or if they will cook up their GW magic to make it cost even more.
GW magic.
GW wrote:The average change for plastic kits is about 6%.
The average of 6% is an average because GW prices are set to new price bands for GBP rather than applying a percentile increase to existing prices (which themselves are newly set price bands after the last price increase). Those are then converted into the applicable foreign currency price bands. You'll likely not get the same average as the GBP prices across foreign prices except by pure chance as that is not how GW sets international prices.
caladancid wrote: You can be as tired as you want, you will have plenty of time to rest once existing customers tap out and new ones aren't starting because of the entry cost.
Entry cost for GW games is dirt cheap relative to other adult hobbies.
You really need to fact check yourself before making that statement. I'm sure you can break out hobbies like flying a plane or sports cars in comparrison, but other similar hobbies. You can barely make a $500 warhammer 40K army, go check out Youtube, there are videos detailing $500 GW armies. While I can spend way less on A Song of Ice and Fire and have a full army faction, rules and an App that tracks it all for me. Updates are free and there are multiple factions to choose from. Competitive and friendly play with a tight rule set. Sure, there are rules questions, but the facebook groups are WAY more open and friendly to answer any questions.
GW has gotten away with jacking up the prices for so long because there were not enough competitors out there with enough traction to get a game anywhere you go. Now not only do games like ASOIAF have tournaments, they also have grand championship tournaments across the globe.
Not only ASOIAF, but other systems are building up and are not hitting price increases every 6 months-year. You can get many basic systems like one page rules for free to download and there are direct correlations between the factions from there and from GW.
Most other hobbies also allow for 3D printing as they realize it's here to stay. What's not here to stay is Warhammer 40K, there's a new edition right around the corner and you will have to repurchase all your overpriced books again.
I keep thinking of getting back into 40K or Fantasy/AOS, but then I look at the starting price for a 5 man box is roughly $50. I can buy a unit for ASOIAF with it's rules cards and movement tray for $40 (Yes, I can buy both for less through a discounter). A warhammer combat patrol is $150ish dollars, I can buy an army starting set for ASOIAF (4 units, NPCs, all the tokens, dice, ruler, cards and a rulebook for $110.00). Free rules updates in the free app.
GW is the big dog, but even big dogs get old and need to be taken behind the woodshed.
It's weird people bring up board games and video games all the time when talking about GW prices. I mean, I guess it makes some sense, because they're both games, but GW isn't just an expensive game, it's an expensive game with highly detailed plastic kits. And those are just expensive. It's not like other successful miniatures games are dramatically cheaper per model (in fact, many are more expensive per model but require far fewer models).
And anyway, you can always find a cheaper hobby. Library cards and walking trails are free, yo. But if Gloomhaven or WOW or scale models are what scratch itch these days, live your best life.
Aecus Decimus wrote: Entry cost for GW games is dirt cheap relative to other adult hobbies.
of course you can compare "gaming" to Hang Gliding or driving sports and argue that it is cheaper
but you don't, the same way as you don't compare a PS5 to Hang Gliding and argue that even at 3 times MSRP it is still cheaper than a Glider, or just a fraction of a Porsche 911
that is not an argument, that is just telling us that within the "gaming" hobby GW reached a point were you cannot compare it to other games but need to reach out to different hobbies to make the point that is is still reasonable priced
you compare games to other other games and when a full 40k army + books costs more than a PS5 + 1 game you have a real argument for why GW is expensive and the PS5 is the better deal for an adult hobby
and when the boardgame community goes bonkers because of the price of SW Shatterpoint, while the GW fanboys come up that the more expensive (with less content) Kill Team box is such great value and still cheaper than other adult hobbies, there is something wrong
But it keeps selling so clearly people don't consider "gaming" to be a single comparative hobby. Games consoles have been cheaper for decades. Board games have been cheaper for decades. Escape rooms exist in the gaming space and that's a more expensive hobby.
Polonius wrote: It's weird people bring up board games and video games all the time when talking about GW prices.
it is just wired that people compare GW miniature games to other adult hobbies to justify the price
and for the hobby with high detailed models, GW is not special or the only one
Gundam and historical scale models are there too, and there are also games to play with those
you compare games to other other games and when a full 40k army + books costs more than a PS5 + 1 game you have a real argument for why GW is expensive and the PS5 is the better deal for an adult hobby
Surely a fairer comparison would be to a console with multiple games?
why multiple games? You can compare multiple GW games with a console and multiple games, than the console is equal the table and terrain you buy, and the games are equal rulebooks and armies
And DLC, then whatever flavour of console online play pass on top.
Polonius wrote: It's weird people bring up board games and video games all the time when talking about GW prices.
it is just wired that people compare GW miniature games to other adult hobbies to justify the price
and for the hobby with high detailed models, GW is not special or the only one
Gundam and historical scale models are there too, and there are also games to play with those
As an adult the idea is you do what you enjoy and either you afford it or you don't. It shouldn't require justification, just do what makes you happy.
deano2099 wrote: But it keeps selling so clearly people don't consider "gaming" to be a single comparative hobby. Games consoles have been cheaper for decades. Board games have been cheaper for decades. Escape rooms exist in the gaming space and that's a more expensive hobby.
and those are selling too?
or you gonna think the boardgame market did not grow in the last years?
40k saw a missive increase in popularity, what you write in as if it would be more popular than boardgames or consoles?
And DLC, then whatever flavour of console online play pass on top.
same as GW games
difference would be that most Game DLC are valid longer than a few months and are there to stay
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Dudeface wrote: As an adult the idea is you do what you enjoy and either you afford it or you don't. It shouldn't require justification, just do what makes you happy.
than why do people come up with "GW is still cheaper than other adult hobbies" in price discussion topic if it is not to justify the GW price?
Theophony wrote: GW has gotten away with jacking up the prices for so long because there were not enough competitors out there with enough traction to get a game anywhere you go. Now not only do games like ASOIAF have tournaments, they also have grand championship tournaments across the globe.
Not only ASOIAF, but other systems are building up and are not hitting price increases every 6 months-year. You can get many basic systems like one page rules for free to download and there are direct correlations between the factions from there and from GW.
Most other hobbies also allow for 3D printing as they realize it's here to stay. What's not here to stay is Warhammer 40K, there's a new edition right around the corner and you will have to repurchase all your overpriced books again.
Every time this debate comes up (so every year or two) somebody makes this exact same point. well... almost exact. It's the same point except for the incredibly awesome game on the rise changes. I remember people citing Mage Knight, the rest of the prepainted games, Star Ship Troopers, Warmachine, flames of war, mailfaux, infinity, X-wing, Legion, Guild ball, and MCP in these threads. And some did stick around for a while, especially warmachine and x-wing. But most never even became a strong second in the minis market.
I"m not yucking your yum. If you love ASOIAF, or Conquest, or whatever, than go for it. But if you look at the list of also rans, the games that had the best runs (Aside from x-wing) were not licensed games. Between bleeding money to the license, and eventually running out of material, licensed games just will not last forever.
So, maybe you make the argument that instead of dropping a thousand bucks on a 40k army, you'll simply spend $250 a year on whatever the new hotness is. that starts to become a lease vs. buy type argument, but I can see the upside.
However, while you might be able to walk into a shop and get a game of ASOIF in your area in two years, I don't think most people will. But maybe you're right, and this will be the year GW prices itself out of the market and is taken down by a new, hungrier competitor. But I know where my money is riding.
Polonius wrote: It's weird people bring up board games and video games all the time when talking about GW prices.
it is just wired that people compare GW miniature games to other adult hobbies to justify the price
and for the hobby with high detailed models, GW is not special or the only one
Gundam and historical scale models are there too, and there are also games to play with those
yeah, I don't think it's a compelling argument, because again, it's not like GW actively sets it's price against, say, golf or snow mobiling or paintball... but the cost of adult hobbies does create the environment in which GW sets it prices. As an adult with a decent job, I do not in any way feel bad about what I spend knowing what other people spend on their hobbies and/or leisure time. Hell, with proliferation of streaming services, my wife's "hobby" of watching TV no long has a trivial cost.
And yes, gundam and historical models exist, with a price range that's actually wider than miniature gaming. Sure, you can buy basic kits for about half the cost of similar GW kit, or several times more!
Dudeface wrote: As an adult the idea is you do what you enjoy and either you afford it or you don't. It shouldn't require justification, just do what makes you happy.
than why do people come up with "GW is still cheaper than other adult hobbies" in price discussion topic if it is not to justify the GW price?
The same reason people who don't play the game or buy any of the minis feel the need to come and decry the evil corporate overlords. Some people like to complain, some people feel attacked by the complaints.
kodos wrote: that is not an argument, that is just telling us that within the "gaming" hobby GW reached a point were you cannot compare it to other games but need to reach out to different hobbies to make the point that is is still reasonable priced
Of course I reach out to other hobbies to compare prices. My spending for hobbies all comes out of the same pool of money, I don't have a separate pool just for games. So all of those hobbies get compared to each other and GW is very definitely on the cheaper end of the scale.
you compare games to other other games and when a full 40k army + books costs more than a PS5 + 1 game you have a real argument for why GW is expensive and the PS5 is the better deal for an adult hobby
That's an absurd combination because nobody buys a PS5 and a single game. They're buying multiple games (often including a new version of the same game every year), subscription services for online play, DLC for their games, etc. And then every console generation means repeating the process from zero. Meanwhile that GW army is going to last effectively forever unless you're a hardcore tournament player and obsessed with chasing the meta and your ongoing costs to continue in the hobby are cheap.
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Theophony wrote: While I can spend way less on A Song of Ice and Fire and have a full army faction, rules and an App that tracks it all for me.
Who cares? It's like arguing about the price efficiency of a $0.99 fast food burger vs. a $1.10 fast food burger. Both of them are cheap so just buy whichever one you like better.
Not only ASOIAF, but other systems are building up and are not hitting price increases every 6 months-year.
Only because they know they have to be cheaper than GW to compete. Don't act like they're keeping prices low as an act of charity, if they could get away with charging more than GW without collapsing their market share every single one of them would do it without hesitation.
ASOIF minis are also the dreaded "boardgame plastic" and while they paint up quite nicely, are not the same level of quality as most table top miniatures.
And you still buy from this company? Do you still try to introduce friends to this hobby?
Do you? If not, please be quiet.
Why should I be quiet? GW’s bad behavior spills over into other parts of the gaming world and affects everyone for the worse.
This is exactly why people should be vocal about their concerns especially in cases of scummy practices like these. For anyone who even works in a corporate environment they usually test the boundaries with things like this, small steps corrupt and such. I know a lot will feel attacked by this, but you are already trained to the bone to accept any detrimental change to your hobby and be charged more for receiving less. No sane person should even try to justify a another price hike after another price hike after another price hike for a big corporation that is already pushing a huge profit margin per product.
Furthermore don't bring ah but this is a cheap hobby into the equation, it is an insincere false-argument. At this rate if I build functional space craft as a hobby then most hobbies are cheap... hurr durr... gotcha dude, I justified your skewed value-perception. And at the rate this is going as you defend the price hike as a consumer you will be alone playing with your very expensive toys for your very expensive hobby.
I want the hobby to keep going at an accessible price range and with respect towards the consumer.
Wait till grandma slips during a bad case of frosting ... GW PRICE HIKE ... TOTALLY JUSTIFIED.
And you still buy from this company? Do you still try to introduce friends to this hobby?
Do you? If not, please be quiet.
Why should I be quiet? GW’s bad behavior spills over into other parts of the gaming world and affects everyone for the worse.
This is exactly why people should be vocal about their concerns especially in cases of scummy practices like these. For anyone who even works in a corporate environment they usually test the boundaries with things like this, small steps corrupt and such. I know a lot will feel attacked by this, but you are already trained to the bone to accept any detrimental change to your hobby and be charged more for receiving less. No sane person should even try to justify a another price hike after another price hike after another price hike for a big corporation that is already pushing a huge profit margin per product.
Furthermore don't bring ah but this is a cheap hobby into the equation, it is an insincere false-argument. At this rate if I build functional space craft as a hobby then most hobbies are cheap... hurr durr... gotcha dude, I justified your skewed value-perception. And at the rate this is going as you defend the price hike as a consumer you will be alone playing with your very expensive toys for your very expensive hobby.
I want the hobby to keep going at an accessible price range and with respect towards the consumer.
Wait till grandma slips during a bad case of frosting ... GW PRICE HIKE ... TOTALLY JUSTIFIED.
What is the profit margin per product, exactly? I'm not talking about raw material costs vs sale price, I'm talking all overheads from start of design up to production, logistics and sale at retailer price.
It's obviously not terrible but I don't think it'll be anywhere near the huge number you expect.
We absolutely know, at least the average, just deduct their claimed cost of sales on their financial report from their declared turnover, that's their gross margin, their declared profit is their net.
Azreal13 wrote: We absolutely know, at least the average, just deduct their claimed cost of sales on their financial report from their declared turnover, that's their gross margin, their declared profit is their net.
Doesn't the profit etc include royalties and other stuff? I'm not economics savvy enough to pretend I'd get the right figures.
It's lined out on the report separately, and if youndive deeper you can even break it down by region etc with reasonable accuracy. I'm just not invested enough to make the effort.
Polonius wrote: It's weird people bring up board games and video games all the time when talking about GW prices. I mean, I guess it makes some sense, because they're both games, but GW isn't just an expensive game, it's an expensive game with highly detailed plastic kits.
So are gunpla kits. And a whole lotta boardgames nowadays. And still...
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Polonius wrote: And yes, gundam and historical models exist, with a price range that's actually wider than miniature gaming. Sure, you can buy basic kits for about half the cost of similar GW kit, or several times more!
I mean, basic Gundam kits are only basic in comparison with other Gundam kits. Not in comparison with GW, as tech and quality wise even the "basic" gunplas are magnitude orders better.
The more expensive Gundam kits would have to be compared with Forgeworld kits... and that comparison would not go well for GW, either.
This 6% increase doesn't break it for me. It does give me a little bit of a bitter taste in my mouth though...
If anything, a price drop would probably be better for them in terms of revenue and overall profit. Anyway, it is greed.
I'll continue with my AM force being all GW official, but I think if I want additional factions I'll turn to 3D printing, I can use my AM at official events and the like, and play other factions in a more casual setting if I want a different flavour for far cheaper.
Polonius wrote: It's weird people bring up board games and video games all the time when talking about GW prices. I mean, I guess it makes some sense, because they're both games, but GW isn't just an expensive game, it's an expensive game with highly detailed plastic kits.
So are gunpla kits. And a whole lotta boardgames nowadays. And still...
Yeah, anybody serious about boardgames is probably spending as much as a GW fanboi per year, and not even playing half the games.
I think if you want to draw a line between the GW hobby and other hobbies, it's that it is very difficult to dabble. By that, I mean you can play D&D with a set of dice and a players handbook, you can buy one or two board games, etc. But GW hobbies, even the smaller games, require a lot of stuff.
But, a lot of hobbies have a pretty steep barrier to entry. In fact, I think that's the defining trait of the mythical "Adult hobby." You can go to the driving range and hit a bucket of balls for $30, but playing golf requires a full set of clubs. I dunno, I think that's why people keep briging it up. For an expensive hobby, it's cheap, if that makes sense.
pleasestopit wrote: This is exactly why people should be vocal about their concerns especially in cases of scummy practices like these.
What exactly is scummy about price increases that are less than inflation? Is there something genuinely unethical here, beyond "I want my toys to be cheaper and anything that is inconvenient for me is scummy"?
Furthermore don't bring ah but this is a cheap hobby into the equation, it is an insincere false-argument. At this rate if I build functional space craft as a hobby then most hobbies are cheap... hurr durr... gotcha dude, I justified your skewed value-perception.
Yeah, because building amateur spacecraft is totally comparable to going out drinking on the weekend or buying a new gaming PC, things which are more expensive than playing 40k.
And at the rate this is going as you defend the price hike as a consumer you will be alone playing with your very expensive toys for your very expensive hobby.
People have been saying this for decades and it still hasn't happened.
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endlesswaltz123 wrote: If anything, a price drop would probably be better for them in terms of revenue and overall profit.
That depends on the state of the market. If GW thinks they've already reached the point of converting most potential customers into actual customers (IOW, the majority of non-customers just don't like 40k for whatever reason) then a price cut would have little effect on sales volume. Most people who buy only the things they're going to immediately use probably won't buy much more than they already do because they're constrained more by time than money and the kids buying 1-2 boxes a year with their birthday money won't be able to increase their purchase volume without a massive price drop. GW would need to get most of that growth in volume from whales who already have 4-5 figure piles of shame and how many of those are there?
But this is all just speculation of course. The people who get paid well to manage hundreds of millions in annual business have looked at the data and concluded that the best way to increase total profit is by per-box profit, not by volume.
Anyway, it is greed.
If it was greed and the market research supported your theory they'd absolutely cut prices to make more money per year.
Polonius wrote: It's weird people bring up board games and video games all the time when talking about GW prices. I mean, I guess it makes some sense, because they're both games, but GW isn't just an expensive game, it's an expensive game with highly detailed plastic kits.
So are gunpla kits. And a whole lotta boardgames nowadays. And still...
Yeah, anybody serious about boardgames is probably spending as much as a GW fanboi per year, and not even playing half the games.
Indeed. Just like with GW stuff, really ^^
But I would agree that both of the above (gunplas and boardgames) can be dabbled much easier and cheaply than GW. Or yes, RPGs, which are stupidly cheap to dabble into.
OTOH, nowadays you can totally go brrrrr and proxy the GW stuff, too.
Honestly I think we need to start collecting these threads. A mandate that we must link back to the previous years of "price rise" to remind ourselves that we've said it all before - mostly around this same time of year too.
Also I want to point out that 3d printers are NOT cheaper.
They tempt you into a whole other hobby of buying newer better bigger printers; and buying resin; and more models than you will ever print in your life and more models and more resin and another printer and then
Then you might get tempted by FDM and the whole cycle starts anew as you print a whole table of terrain!!
Honestly I'm waiting for the "hey guys these concrete printers are really cheap now; you can buy one and print your own game hobby room for almost nothing compared to buying a shed! And they are are far more structurally sound - everyone get 3D concrete printers!!
Polonius wrote: It's weird people bring up board games and video games all the time when talking about GW prices. I mean, I guess it makes some sense, because they're both games, but GW isn't just an expensive game, it's an expensive game with highly detailed plastic kits.
So are gunpla kits. And a whole lotta boardgames nowadays. And still...
Yeah, anybody serious about boardgames is probably spending as much as a GW fanboi per year, and not even playing half the games.
pleasestopit wrote: This is exactly why people should be vocal about their concerns especially in cases of scummy practices like these.
What exactly is scummy about price increases that are less than inflation? Is there something genuinely unethical here, beyond "I want my toys to be cheaper and anything that is inconvenient for me is scummy"?
Furthermore don't bring ah but this is a cheap hobby into the equation, it is an insincere false-argument. At this rate if I build functional space craft as a hobby then most hobbies are cheap... hurr durr... gotcha dude, I justified your skewed value-perception.
Yeah, because building amateur spacecraft is totally comparable to going out drinking on the weekend or buying a new gaming PC, things which are more expensive than playing 40k.
And at the rate this is going as you defend the price hike as a consumer you will be alone playing with your very expensive toys for your very expensive hobby.
People have been saying this for decades and it still hasn't happened.
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endlesswaltz123 wrote: If anything, a price drop would probably be better for them in terms of revenue and overall profit.
That depends on the state of the market. If GW thinks they've already reached the point of converting most potential customers into actual customers (IOW, the majority of non-customers just don't like 40k for whatever reason) then a price cut would have little effect on sales volume. Most people who buy only the things they're going to immediately use probably won't buy much more than they already do because they're constrained more by time than money and the kids buying 1-2 boxes a year with their birthday money won't be able to increase their purchase volume without a massive price drop. GW would need to get most of that growth in volume from whales who already have 4-5 figure piles of shame and how many of those are there?
But this is all just speculation of course. The people who get paid well to manage hundreds of millions in annual business have looked at the data and concluded that the best way to increase total profit is by per-box profit, not by volume.
Anyway, it is greed.
If it was greed and the market research supported your theory they'd absolutely cut prices to make more money per year.
You clearly are a loony, but if you really want me to extrapolate any proof,logic or in-your-face evidence to support what I said you have to pay me as I will not waste time just for you to cover your "ears" and go LA-LA-LA nu-uh. I really frown upon dealing with people of your fanatical beliefs that take it upon themselves to defend a company for no reason except "i hope she sees this bruh".
But here, have some stinky cheese ... did GW also increase their worker's pay with this new plastic price hike ? Or are their workers exempt of "inflation" costs and they have no increased overhead costs to deal with?
We don’t know, is the short answer. Such things aren’t typically public knowledge.
Might be in their annual report though. That is public.
I switched to 3 d printing last year when they hicked prices. It was kinda rough at first learning how to use it and I more or less wasted a full jug or resin.
Just tinkering here and their I now have it down great saturn 8k resin printer.
I only wish I had found it earlier. Really if you haven't tried 3d printing and you think it's hard to get into it is realy not if I can do it so can you. As a bonus I have been printing minis for use in 40k and just stuff I like. Lots of free sculpts out their plenty that, no joke look better than 40k sculptors.
I do check in and I will say that I would buy somthing if it blew me away (am hoping the soon to arrive lion falls into this catagory) but overall 3d printing really is the future once you have used one and gotten decent with it you can't go back.
How soon before we see retail lists showing the new price structure?
I know GW says it's an average of 6% on plastic and resin kits but in the past some price rises were not equal across the board. Some kits increased more than others percentage wise. Some even got rounded up into the next price band
pleasestopit wrote: You clearly are a loony, but if you really want me to extrapolate any proof,logic or in-your-face evidence to support what I said you have to pay me as I will not waste time just for you to cover your "ears" and go LA-LA-LA nu-uh. I really frown upon dealing with people of your fanatical beliefs that take it upon themselves to defend a company for no reason except "i hope she sees this bruh".
This is the perfect example of a polite and well-reasoned argument that should be persuasive to anyone who reads it.
/s, since I know you won't get it otherwise.
But here, have some stinky cheese ... did GW also increase their worker's pay with this new plastic price hike ? Or are their workers exempt of "inflation" costs and they have no increased overhead costs to deal with?
Why does it matter if GW increased pay? GW is a for-profit business, not a charity.
On a purely personal note? Where I work has posted record results in 2020, 2021 and 2022. In those years, I got a 2% payrise, a 0% payrise, and another 2% payrise.
To know our numbers and quality are up, but I get an effective pay cut, year on year, doesn’t just suck, it pees me right off. And we’re not something General Public pays for - we’re free to them.
I’ve personally no issue with GW increasing prices. Like any luxury, I either want it and can afford it, or I don’t buy it. But they’re not treating their staff fairly, that’s pretty scummy.
But as I said, we don’t know unless it’s in annual reports, or someone posts verifiable info in that regard.
Polonius wrote: It's weird people bring up board games and video games all the time when talking about GW prices. I mean, I guess it makes some sense, because they're both games, but GW isn't just an expensive game, it's an expensive game with highly detailed plastic kits.
So are gunpla kits. And a whole lotta boardgames nowadays. And still...
Yeah, anybody serious about boardgames is probably spending as much as a GW fanboi per year, and not even playing half the games.
On a purely personal note? Where I work has posted record results in 2020, 2021 and 2022. In those years, I got a 2% payrise, a 0% payrise, and another 2% payrise.
To know our numbers and quality are up, but I get an effective pay cut, year on year, doesn’t just suck, it pees me right off. And we’re not something General Public pays for - we’re free to them.
I’ve personally no issue with GW increasing prices. Like any luxury, I either want it and can afford it, or I don’t buy it. But they’re not treating their staff fairly, that’s pretty scummy.
But as I said, we don’t know unless it’s in annual reports, or someone posts verifiable info in that regard.
In short, yes they did:
We are committed to ensuring that all staff are paid fairly for the job they perform and to rewarding our staff for their considerable contribution. We always manage the business for the long term and aim to get the right mix of annual pay rises and variable cash rewards. From June we paid a standard 3% pay rise, with some staff receiving a pay rise of up to 10% to benchmark their pay to market rates. We share our success with our staff too via the group profit share scheme.
In line with our group profit share scheme, payments in cash to staff are £4.5 million (2021: £6.9 million). Total dividends declared in the period reported were 165 pence per share, £54.2 million (2021: 100 pence per share, £32.8 million).
Personal trivia for pay reviews where I am which is a fairly large software firm, similar story, profits up year on year. No pay review for anyone 2021, 2022 it was 2% on average but I was intentionally excluded due to a promotion the year before, this year we had a waffley message about how it'll only be the bottom earners without any definition about that but the idea of a 1% company wide raise made them baulk so likely nothing for me this year. This seems fairly normal in the UK for large corporations atm.
Galas wrote: 6% increase after last year 5% prince increase with profits trought the roof.
Ok. Lovely lookin at those Ogre Infantry going from 32,50€ to 42,50€ and now 45€ in the span of 4 years.
What, you expected already amortized sprues (many, many times over) not to go up in price? C'mon, be serious.
If you don't want to see prices out better leave western countries and similar(japan etc). Our economic system is built on everything going up steadily and if not basically economy stalls, people get laid off, companies go bust and end of the world near.
Overread wrote: Honestly I think we need to start collecting these threads. A mandate that we must link back to the previous years of "price rise" to remind ourselves that we've said it all before - mostly around this same time of year too.
Yeah, I've seen this stuff since the mid-1990s on Usenet, and it all still reads the same. Would be fun to see a slideshow of GW price rant quotes from the last 25 years as a line graph in the background shows GW's revenue growth. With "Do You Hear The People Sing" playing as background music.
Dudeface wrote: As an adult the idea is you do what you enjoy and either you afford it or you don't. It shouldn't require justification, just do what makes you happy.
than why do people come up with "GW is still cheaper than other adult hobbies" in price discussion topic if it is not to justify the GW price?
It's a way of saying "it's still affordable for loads of us" without sounding so mercenary or exclusionary. It's not about justifying the price, it's *in response* to the doom-mongering that GW are going to kill themselves as the market can't sustain it, every time there's a price increase. It's pointing out there are plenty of industries around far more expensive hobbies that are doing *just fine*.
It's not a moral argument, it's not about what's right or wrong (and it's sad to see so many kids priced out and super-long-term that's going to be very bad, but that's 20 years down the line) - it's about if they can continue to sell at that price, which they can, because most of their audience already has the disposable income and can cope with annual price increases.
Polonius wrote: It's weird people bring up board games and video games all the time when talking about GW prices. I mean, I guess it makes some sense, because they're both games, but GW isn't just an expensive game, it's an expensive game with highly detailed plastic kits.
So are gunpla kits. And a whole lotta boardgames nowadays. And still...
Yeah, anybody serious about boardgames is probably spending as much as a GW fanboi per year, and not even playing half the games.
You aren't kidding about that. I'm always surprised to see the stacks of new boardgames people walk out with at PAX Unplugged. And it's not like there aren't ample amounts of boardgame retailers selling boardgames at ample discounts. I know I was never in the habit of dropping a few hundred on merch at every minis event I attended.
Come to think of it, it was like that at the old Games Days too. People would be in line at the registers with stacks of new kits they could have bought or ordered anywhere. It was those moments that were the counterpoints to all the price rants and outrage.
Boosykes wrote: I switched to 3 d printing last year when they hicked prices. It was kinda rough at first learning how to use it and I more or less wasted a full jug or resin.
Just tinkering here and their I now have it down great saturn 8k resin printer.
I only wish I had found it earlier. Really if you haven't tried 3d printing and you think it's hard to get into it is realy not if I can do it so can you. As a bonus I have been printing minis for use in 40k and just stuff I like. Lots of free sculpts out their plenty that, no joke look better than 40k sculptors.
I do check in and I will say that I would buy somthing if it blew me away (am hoping the soon to arrive lion falls into this catagory) but overall 3d printing really is the future once you have used one and gotten decent with it you can't go back.
Until 3d printers are user friendly enough to effectively plug in, then press print (like a traditional printer) then the up front cost, time and effort getting prints right, is going to put off the majority of people.
It's so much easier and more convenient to buy a box of minis that you know what they look like, and you can return if there is anything wrong with them.
Saying that I do think 3d printing is the future, maybe 5 years away from being more mainstream.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Basic infantry squads just hit triple digits in Australia, so this "price rise" is confusing.
GW raises the prices all the time. This is a price rise on top of a price rise.
^ Exactly. It's another day that ends in Y. The figures are starting to collect dust on our local markets shelves. It's that issue about price hikes on everything across the board, but not wage.
You should have seen how fast the Horus Heresy crowd died... The Glut on the local shelf was legendary. It was as if the whole group, collectively, said- the hell with it, we're out.
Polonius wrote: It's weird people bring up board games and video games all the time when talking about GW prices. I mean, I guess it makes some sense, because they're both games, but GW isn't just an expensive game, it's an expensive game with highly detailed plastic kits.
So are gunpla kits. And a whole lotta boardgames nowadays. And still...
Yeah, anybody serious about boardgames is probably spending as much as a GW fanboi per year, and not even playing half the games.
You aren't kidding about that. I'm always surprised to see the stacks of new boardgames people walk out with at PAX Unplugged. And it's not like there aren't ample amounts of boardgame retailers selling boardgames at ample discounts. I know I was never in the habit of dropping a few hundred on merch at every minis event I attended.
Come to think of it, it was like that at the old Games Days too. People would be in line at the registers with stacks of new kits they could have bought or ordered anywhere. It was those moments that were the counterpoints to all the price rants and outrage.
Thing is after all it's still hobby spending - 'The Market' is by definition composed of people that can still afford it. That market may shrink or expand a bit depending on how the economy does, but after you've bitten the initial bullet another x% on top are pretty easy to justify...
On top of that, people don't operate in a vacuum - 50€ for a character or 100€ for a patrol box is harsh, but it becomes much less so when you can easily get nearer to 100 than to 50 for going for a couple of beers and a movie with two people, or for a single PC/console game with some DLC. It's high, but it's also still in the same general category where it always was. Crazyland, aka Oceania off course excluded
And a gakky economy and even shittier prospects for young-ish people can have paradoxical effects, too: if you don't even attempt to save up for a house, a car or for going to college anymore because it is no longer financially feasible to even try, you suddenly have a lot of disposable income in your late 20s and early 30s compared to the generations before, and that finds its way into all sorts of crazy whale-ish spending on hobbies and other stuff in that vein. It's a symptom of a general malaise of a lot of western societies, but at the moment it's also a tide that floats a large number of entertainment industry boats that should have sunk a long time ago if it were a normal and healthy situation.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Basic infantry squads just hit triple digits in Australia, so this "price rise" is confusing.
GW raises the prices all the time. This is a price rise on top of a price rise.
^ Exactly. It's another day that ends in Y. The figures are starting to collect dust on our local markets shelves. It's that issue about price hikes on everything across the board, but not wage.
You should have seen how fast the Horus Heresy crowd died... The Glut on the local shelf was legendary. It was as if the whole group, collectively, said- the hell with it, we're out.
I have a local store near me that has a 30 foot long by 14 foot high wall, stuffed to the brim with 40k and AoS stuff. I don't understand how they move any of it. They have killteam boxes from years ago.
No discount unless you join thier pay-in "Rewards" club.
Overread wrote: Also I want to point out that 3d printers are NOT cheaper.
They are not. They are a whole new hobby. But they allow me to do things I could have only imagined some years back, whereas GW is devolving to one pose, one loadout in most of their stuff.
McDougall Designs wrote: I have a local store near me that has a 30 foot long by 14 foot high wall, stuffed to the brim with 40k and AoS stuff. I don't understand how they move any of it. They have killteam boxes from years ago.
No discount unless you join thier pay-in "Rewards" club.
I suspect that has more to do with that particular store being bad than anything, positive or negative, involving GW's prices. Full MSRP at a store doesn't get customers when you can pay MSRP and have the thing you want show up at your house instead of having to go out and get it.
Overread wrote: Also I want to point out that 3d printers are NOT cheaper.
They are not. They are a whole new hobby. But they allow me to do things I could habe only imagined some years back, whereas GW is devolving to one pose, one loadout in most of their stuff.
Which is an amusing complaint to me when the majority of 3D print models are also monopose in the extreme - some don't even bother to cut anything at all and just presupport as one standing pose.
Modular is a whole rafter of challenges and many don't do it well or don't do it at all.
Then you've got someone like Pipermakes who is just doing utterly crazy with modular it and its awesome.
But yeah 3D printing doesn't replace GW or Mantic or PP or any other firm; its just another avenue and another type and selection of models to pick from
Galas wrote: 6% increase after last year 5% prince increase with profits trought the roof.
Ok. Lovely lookin at those Ogre Infantry going from 32,50€ to 42,50€ and now 45€ in the span of 4 years.
What, you expected already amortized sprues (many, many times over) not to go up in price? C'mon, be serious.
If you don't want to see prices out better leave western countries and similar(japan etc). Our economic system is built on everything going up steadily and if not basically economy stalls, people get laid off, companies go bust and end of the world near.
Oh, yeah, ye olde "but you still live in a capitalist country" retort.
Won't effect me as I haven't bought current GW stuff in years. Last GW thing I bought was second hand (Doom of the Eldar boardgame from the 90's).
I was toying with the idea of getting into the HH, the big box set looks nice, however the increase and poor currency conversion really puts that idea on hold.
It is an exact year that they announced the last price increase, will be interesting to see if they make the same announcement on Feb 9th 2024. Could be something to do with the financial year.
6% may be below UK inflation, but it comes at a bad time. Gw will weather what ever fall out this generates, as they are a behemoth of a company.
It would be less awful if they hadn't just raised the prices just a couple of months ago.
If I was still active in the 'Complete warhammer hobby experience™' I'd be annoyed, but honestly I save so much money by just playing older editions, alternative games, and basing miniatures in a way that lets me play the same models in multiple games. Simple dropping edition chasing has saved me so much.
Even simple things like not bothering to buy AoS battletomes, warscrolls and generals handbooks ever year saves more than what the price rise will probably add. Waiting on buying new AoS kits until they appear the following year in a battleforce also saves a nice amount.
I do find it amusing that GW are raising their prices at least twice every year now, and yet think they can bring out the old world and not have it fall into the exact same issues that WFB 8th ed was facing at the end (times). I also chuckle when I pick up old, OOP kits new in box which come with a complete WFB unit (Including command, extras and movement tray) and the price is still less than that of a 5/10 man set of current bog standard troops.
I do feel sorry for kids wanting to get into playing warhammer at these sort of price points. GW/Warhammer was incredibly important to me as a kid, I do not know how someone in similar shoes as I once was would have any chance to even be able to buy enough stuff to 'make do' to be involved in the hobby in some form these days. Pocket money sets are a thing of the past with warhammer.
There are the sort of comments where people try to justify a new generals handbook/rulebook/army book every 6 months as a good way to support the game, and by not buying into it you could be killing the game. I've stopped posting to most major hobby groups online simple as I'm sick of being told I'm hurting the game by playing older editions.
Gw price rises also become less of a hindrance on my own hobby, by just going out and celebrating each price rise with a huge order of Victrix/Oathmark (or other) minis instead.
I was toying with the idea of getting into the HH, the big box set looks nice, however the increase and poor currency conversion really puts that idea on hold.
Play it in 6mm scale. Epic has a lively community and plenty of people run HH at 6mm. Vanguard minis has a huge range of minis for the HH, even before you add in the option to 3d Print.
You may end up buying some knights/Titan from the AT range, but its still a lot cheaper overall than buying into the larger scale version of the game.
Grot 6 wrote: ^ Exactly. It's another day that ends in Y. The figures are starting to collect dust on our local markets shelves. It's that issue about price hikes on everything across the board, but not wage.
That's not what I was getting at at all.
My point was they just did a price rise.
They raised the prices and said nothing about it, then turned around and went "Times are tough guys, so we're raising the prices!", like, what, we didn't notice the other times they've already raised prices this year? And last year? And all the other release-to-release price increases they do?
They're acting like this is the first they've had to do this since the last time they announced an across-the-board price rise. It's not. It happens with almost every new set of releases.
Some people don't seem to understand that GW is a business.
They will charge what they can get away with.
Guess what? It's working for them.
Agreed. But that doesn't mean that you need to just suck it up, buttercup either.
Just take a look at WotC and all the OGL debacle and see what pushback can do.
But of course, if prices keep rising and people keep buying, it's not like they have any incentive whatsoever to stop doing it.
Regarding "suck it up, buttercup", I don't think that any mass boycotting of GW would work, after all, they are luxury goods when all is said and done.
Even if their data shows that price increases have harmed sales overall there is no way that they will reduce prices, they would most likely introduce more bundle deals to help with the perception of value.
Nobody *likes* the price increases, but this year they seem more justified than they normally are (to me, at least), mostly due to inflation.
Saying that, it is painful to have been hit by two price rises in a very short space of time.
Some people don't seem to understand that GW is a business
.
No, some people think it's a hobby.
Miniature painting is a hobby, wargaming is a hobby, Games Workshop is a business.
I know that you know this, so whatever point you were making has clearly gone over my head.
That's precisely the point I was making, people treat GW as "the hobby."
I think this is where so much of the cognitive dissonance comes from and why some people get so angry when they're treated as a resource to be farmed and not like the design studio's bestest buddies.
Perhaps we need to bring "the hhhobby" back into common usage to distinguish the actual hobby for what some people think it is.
Some people don't seem to understand that GW is a business
.
No, some people think it's a hobby.
Miniature painting is a hobby, wargaming is a hobby, Games Workshop is a business.
I know that you know this, so whatever point you were making has clearly gone over my head.
That's precisely the point I was making, people treat GW as "the hobby."
I think this is where so much of the cognitive dissonance comes from and why some people get so angry when they're treated as a resource to be farmed and not like the design studio's bestest buddies.
Perhaps we need to bring "the hhhobby" back into common usage to distinguish the actual hobby for what some people think it is.
Good point, well made.
I can't help but roll my eyes when I see some of the more emotional posts in this thread, confusing Games Workshop with the actual hobby would certainly explain their rants.
I think we have to draw a line between those who think GW is the only part of the hobby and those who think/know that GW games are the only ones they can engage with their local playerbase, without having to basically become a rep/salesperson for another game line.
Because I think for many its not that GW is the only miniature producer out there; or the only wargame; or the only way to engage with miniature models. Indeed I'd argue that just being part of the online forum community invalidates that as to get to this point you are going to be exposed to other systems.
What I think it is is that for many people all they have locally is a GW store; or a club that plays GW games; or a socail group or a 3rd party store. If they have other games it really might be one or two people locally who play them if at all.
So for many its not so much that GW IS the hobby, but that they feel/art constrained by the local situation such that GW is the only viable local system for them.
At least excluding them becoming a rep for another game system and doing the hard job of building their own community up; promoting; demoing and building local interest up. Which can be hard and sometimes even if you do everything right it still won't work (and many many times it does work and its awesome).
I think that's an important line to draw in the sand because I think some get the impression that there are those who are so blinkered that they can only see GW and they see nothing else. Meanwhile I think for many its not that they don't see and aren't interested in other things; just that its not supported locally and its a tough fight to get things to change.
Isn't metals basically a handful of skaven models and that's about it? Chances are production of metals for GW right now is so insanely low compared to everything else that either
1) They don't need to raise prices on them
2) They don't need to single it out in marketing info even if the prices are going to rise. Or more likely in this course, they just forgot that there's 5 or 6 metal models left in the range.
Polonius wrote: It's weird people bring up board games and video games all the time when talking about GW prices. I mean, I guess it makes some sense, because they're both games, but GW isn't just an expensive game, it's an expensive game with highly detailed plastic kits.
So are gunpla kits. And a whole lotta boardgames nowadays. And still...
Yeah, anybody serious about boardgames is probably spending as much as a GW fanboi per year, and not even playing half the games.
Source: dude, trust me
Kickstarter
See also: the nigh ever growing Board Games sections in places like Target and Barnes & Noble.
Personally, I know 12 or so people who attend GenCon annually and have never NOT brought an additional large suitcase to fly back all the games they'll buy that I'll never see at the monthly board game day held at someone's house. That's not a rare occurrence to hear about from people that attend other game conventions regularly.
Overread wrote: Isn't metals basically a handful of skaven models and that's about it? Chances are production of metals for GW right now is so insanely low compared to everything else that either
1) They don't need to raise prices on them
2) They don't need to single it out in marketing info even if the prices are going to rise. Or more likely in this course, they just forgot that there's 5 or 6 metal models left in the range.
There are a handful of AoS models which are still metal, Skaven & Gloomspite have the last remaining metals. But there are a huge number of MESBG minis which are still metal, some forces are completely composed of metal minis still. On top of that they run enough MTO runs which are still often in metal.
The LotR range already had increases in the last year, another would really make their metal model range well over priced.
If metal is seeing another 6% increase next month as well I'd pretty much abandon any notions of picking up the last models I wanted. There is another MTO this weekend for LotR stuff and I was dreading the overall cost, and that's before this price rise news. Thankfully I don't play their middle earth game, but do buy a fair amount of the models to use in another game. I may change my mind about buying 3 of the fellbeast sets if this MTO is going to match next months prices. I'm already expecting them to cost almost double of the plastic kit.
It doesn't help that they fail to keep so much of the mesbg items in stock, and when they do miraculously get them back in, it always seems to be after a price rise. (The mumakil forgeworld kit for example, was out of stock for months last year and when it did return a few months ago it was hiked in price)
Thinking about this, I honestly don't think they are raising the prices now due to rising costs. They did that not many months ago, just before December. I think they do it at this time of year to get a few more panic buys in this month to help boost sales at a time of year people are just recovering from over spending over Christmas.
I already spoke to my group about skipping the next edition (at least expenditure wise) as I’m a little over the churn and burn of the edition/codex system. Adding in more expensive kits (that are already pretty overpriced to begin with), and the decision gets so much easier. I have enough stuff to last me a long time so this year will yield a major pause in my spending. It’s not that I can’t, just a case of I don’t want to anymore.
6% is a lie, as far as the US is concerned. The 1.5 pounds Battle Sisters are going up as the article mentioned? Going from 60 to 70 in the US
Nearly everything I looked at, with the exception of Bloodbowl, had a minimum 10% increase, and as high as 20.
Even the Khorne items coming out Saturday will increase. Berzerkers and Invocatus go from 60.00 to 75.00, as an example.
Absolutely indefensible. This far and away outpaces inflation. As much as I WANT to buy the gw models for the quality even though I have a resin and a fdm printer, that difference in price is unjustifiable.
Sledgehammer wrote: Absolutely indefensible. This far and away outpaces inflation. As much as I WANT to buy the gw models for the quality even though I have a resin and a fdm printer, that difference in price is unjustifiable.
"But GW is a business!" "But these are luxury goods!" "It's not as expensive as gold collecting/diamond creation/amateur asteroid mining, so the prices are fine!"
I’m going to laugh if those US rumored prices are correct. They are going to lose a lot of business, so many people are not going to pay these new prices.
bullyboy wrote: I’m going to laugh if those US rumored prices are correct. They are going to lose a lot of business, so many people are not going to pay these new prices.
As stated above this is not the first time we have danced this dance. I'll keep buying some stuff here, and there because I have the money, but I never was the type of client to drop 500$ bucks every couple of months.
Sledgehammer wrote: Absolutely indefensible. This far and away outpaces inflation. As much as I WANT to buy the gw models for the quality even though I have a resin and a fdm printer, that difference in price is unjustifiable.
"But GW is a business!"
"But these are luxury goods!"
"It's not as expensive as gold collecting/diamond creation/amateur asteroid mining, so the prices are fine!"
Hehe asteroid mining
You know my mum used to have shares in an Egyptian Gold mine. When they stopped exploration and started to mine, the shares hit an all time high. Which meant sell sell sell!
So how many GW consumers are now going to rush out and buy buy buy before this rise? Or before they even know exactly what the rises will be?
Sledgehammer wrote: Absolutely indefensible. This far and away outpaces inflation. As much as I WANT to buy the gw models for the quality even though I have a resin and a fdm printer, that difference in price is unjustifiable.
"But GW is a business!"
"But these are luxury goods!"
"It's not as expensive as gold collecting/diamond creation/amateur asteroid mining, so the prices are fine!"
Hehe asteroid mining
You know my mum used to have shares in an Egyptian Gold mine. When they stopped exploration and started to mine, the shares hit an all time high. Which meant sell sell sell!
So how many GW consumers are now going to rush out and buy buy buy before this rise? Or before they even know exactly what the rises will be?
I'm willing to pay a premium if its desirable and the alternatives are not as appetizing. GW miniatures are quickly becoming more and more expensive (many miniatures are now double the price they were in 2014 when I started) while their direct and indirect competitors are quickly catching up in terms of quality. GW miniatures will sooner rather than later become valuable not for the quality in and of themselves, but for the IP that they are attached to. The only reason that the individual would care about that is if GW had a means with which to bar entry from the game to those that did not use official models. Hence GWs continued meddling in the tournament scene and "narrative" events. The rhetoric around "the hobby" is also psychologically designed in order to make you believe that GW is THE HOBBY.
I'm willing to pay a premium if its desirable and the alternatives are not as appetizing. GW miniatures are quickly becoming more and more expensive (many miniatures are now double the price they were in 2014 when I started) while their direct and indirect competitors are quickly catching up in terms of quality. GW miniatures will sooner rather than later become valuable not for the quality in and of themselves, but for the IP that they are attached to. The only reason that the individual would care about that is if GW had a means with which to bar entry from the game to those that did not use official models. Hence GWs continued meddling in the tournament scene and "narrative" events. The rhetoric around "the hobby" is also psychologically designed in order to make you believe that GW is THE HOBBY.
Yep I can see an added value to an official GW miniature too. It guarantees a player entry to a tournament that runs a GW game.
Even where I live, in a regional area, there is one hobby store in town, an independent store, not a GW. Any tournament they run for a GW game, WH40k, Warcry, Kill Team, Blood Bowl etc they insist only GW miniatures are allowed. They refuse to allow non GW miniatures at all. Even a conversion must be from actual GW miniatures. They have even inspected minis for pick up casual games on a weekend to check for 3rd party parts, shoulder pads etc.
So for sure when an independent store (the only store in a whole town) holds such high standards and a huge commitment to GW, some people don't even think outside of GW for 'the hobby'.
Unfortunately after 5 years the store I've mentioned has now sadly decided to close down. By the end of Feb they will be gone. Will be interesting to see where our local gaming community go to play and how they respond.
Some people don't seem to understand that GW is a business.
They will charge what they can get away with.
Guess what? It's working for them.
Agreed. But that doesn't mean that you need to just suck it up, buttercup either.
Just take a look at WotC and all the OGL debacle and see what pushback can do.
But of course, if prices keep rising and people keep buying, it's not like they have any incentive whatsoever to stop doing it.
Regarding "suck it up, buttercup", I don't think that any mass boycotting of GW would work, after all, they are luxury goods when all is said and done.
Even if their data shows that price increases have harmed sales overall there is no way that they will reduce prices, they would most likely introduce more bundle deals to help with the perception of value.
Nobody *likes* the price increases, but this year they seem more justified than they normally are (to me, at least), mostly due to inflation.
Saying that, it is painful to have been hit by two price rises in a very short space of time.
Everything you just said can be as easily applied to WotC and the OGL, or even you can take a look at MtG from the same company as see for yourself what predatory tactics can end up doing with your fanbase.
GW raises prices because their fanbase let them. Pure and simple. Everything else is a smokescreen. And they will keep doing it until there's enough pushback.
Glad I got almost my entire Sisters of Battle army from 'cheap' Imperium sprues, as even though I could afford to, I can't justify GW's mainline prices.
Galas wrote: 6% increase after last year 5% prince increase with profits trought the roof.
Ok. Lovely lookin at those Ogre Infantry going from 32,50€ to 42,50€ and now 45€ in the span of 4 years.
What, you expected already amortized sprues (many, many times over) not to go up in price? C'mon, be serious.
If you don't want to see prices out better leave western countries and similar(japan etc). Our economic system is built on everything going up steadily and if not basically economy stalls, people get laid off, companies go bust and end of the world near.
Oh, yeah, ye olde "but you still live in a capitalist country" retort.
Spoiler:
I'm pointing out the obvious. If everything would stop going up it would be matter of time before YOU would be out of job and whole economy would have crashed.
The whole economic model depends on prices going up. Prices staying same is very bad. Prices going down is even worse. Ever heard inflation?
I earn more than what my job earned 2000 as well.
Sorry but unlike you I live in real world and not spend my days in hallucinations.
Psst. I'm going to tell you secret since you haven't noticed it. Food prices have gone up as well. They cost lot more now than 2000. Rents as well. Public transport. Medicine. Gasoline. Wonder why you aren't in barricades over that? After all that's actual essential item people need to live...Any sensible person would be ranting against those getting more expensive than over plastic toys. But guess for you plastic toys are more important than living
Ah well. Illogicallity of people never stops amazing me.
I am glad i got a back log of GW stuff. Over the years my monthly hobby budget has not changed much. I still buy some GW stuff, but honestly their last few price hikes have got me looking elsewhere. Between that and the library needed to play a 40k game, I would much rather play Fallout Wasteland Warfare or Marvel Crisis protocol.
GW isn't the only game manufacturer anymore even if they do act like it. They still act like they got no competition. Between other mini game companies and 3d printers, GW should worry less about raising prices and being the next great book publisher, and more about gaining a customer base. Their recent practices, are pushing more and more people toward other options.
GW reduced the retailer discount, but because GW is a buisness and the retailers are a hobby, they will just suck up the increase and not change the retail prices?
GW in addition increase the prices because "inflation" but this time the "with 20% discount it is still fine" does not apply as those greedy retailers don't give 20% discount any more?
- need to double the prices because of inflation
- need state aid because of bad economy
- Jobs are in danger if we don't raise prices and get aid
end of the year: making double the profit of last year
so being on the edge of bankruptcy and therefore not being able to swallow the "inflation" just means not being able to double the profit compared to last year
but of course, workers cannot get double the wages of last year because this would just increase inflation even more
this neo-liberal bs how the poor companies are and have hard times to double profits and therefore we need to accept the prices is one of the most stupid things I have seen in the last years
I'm willing to pay a premium if its desirable and the alternatives are not as appetizing. GW miniatures are quickly becoming more and more expensive (many miniatures are now double the price they were in 2014 when I started) while their direct and indirect competitors are quickly catching up in terms of quality. GW miniatures will sooner rather than later become valuable not for the quality in and of themselves, but for the IP that they are attached to. The only reason that the individual would care about that is if GW had a means with which to bar entry from the game to those that did not use official models. Hence GWs continued meddling in the tournament scene and "narrative" events. The rhetoric around "the hobby" is also psychologically designed in order to make you believe that GW is THE HOBBY.
Yep I can see an added value to an official GW miniature too. It guarantees a player entry to a tournament that runs a GW game.
Even where I live, in a regional area, there is one hobby store in town, an independent store, not a GW. Any tournament they run for a GW game, WH40k, Warcry, Kill Team, Blood Bowl etc they insist only GW miniatures are allowed. They refuse to allow non GW miniatures at all. Even a conversion must be from actual GW miniatures. They have even inspected minis for pick up casual games on a weekend to check for 3rd party parts, shoulder pads etc.
So for sure when an independent store (the only store in a whole town) holds such high standards and a huge commitment to GW, some people don't even think outside of GW for 'the hobby'.
Unfortunately after 5 years the store I've mentioned has now sadly decided to close down. By the end of Feb they will be gone. Will be interesting to see where our local gaming community go to play and how they respond.
That’s a lot of effort to tell people not to be in your store honestly, just knowing enough about GW miniatures over the years would be full time job for that.
But it is I think all feeding into a big GW divide, prices is only one thing. It’s also the whole ecosystem of the game. 40k is pricy and they want to sell a bunch of books, and terrain and everything. Even if the minis are good for plastic, the game I think is suffering as a rather lame product for its costs.
- need to double the prices because of inflation
- need state aid because of bad economy
- Jobs are in danger if we don't raise prices and get aid
end of the year: making double the profit of last year
so being on the edge of bankruptcy and therefore not being able to swallow the "inflation" just means not being able to double the profit compared to last year
but of course, workers cannot get double the wages of last year because this would just increase inflation even more
this neo-liberal bs how the poor companies are and have hard times to double profits and therefore we need to accept the prices is one of the most stupid things I have seen in the last years
Dudeface wrote: After looking through the US prices, knight models seem to have taken a hammering with a whopping 19% on the big guys.
To any who haven't looked the combat patrols are another big causalty with a 17% increase.
They were clearly not priced correctly, then [/s]
They're products that largely dodged the previous rises, so not a huge shock, but it's a big number on big items. Some people might stomach 19% on a comparatively cheap box, but the bigger prices going up the largest amount is just going to gate some people out of those. Like I said before, not a whinge, just an observation and it's down to the individual if they can or want to afford it.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Nobody *likes* the price increases, but this year they seem more justified than they normally are (to me, at least), mostly due to inflation.
On the flipside it's really easy to disregard the given justification because GW has a long history of raising prices frequently and above inflation regardless of the circumstances. You just know that if the current economic situation was all sunshine and lollipops, GW would still announce the same increase just without the pretext.
It's a part of why this price increase is bound to get so many negative reactions no matter how much it fits with the current climate. If GW was in the habit of keeping prices reasonably steady and only increased them sparingly and out of economic necessity, I expect you'd see a lot more people accept that GW has to respond to the current troubles to remain profitable. But with the company acting as it does, it's just business as usual with a plausible excuse tacked on for a change.
mikhaila wrote:Someone saw the canadian increases, and they were closer to 7%.
Canada has always been closer to UK pricing.
So either someone really, really screwd up the US pricing chart, or the article is only about the UK.
I'm also seeing price increase to 9.60 on the formerly 7.80 paint pots, and yet they specifiy that paints weren't going up. Who the feth knows.
A ten to twenty percent price rise does sound crazy, but as you say it doesn't match what we have already heard so I'm going to wait before passing judgement.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
"But GW is a business!"
"But these are luxury goods!"
I love how you think that you are scoring points by mocking facts. What next, the earth is flat?
H.B.M.C. wrote:
"It's not as expensive as gold collecting/diamond creation/amateur asteroid mining, so the prices are fine!"
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Nobody *likes* the price increases, but this year they seem more justified than they normally are (to me, at least), mostly due to inflation.
On the flipside it's really easy to disregard the given justification because GW has a long history of raising prices frequently and above inflation regardless of the circumstances. You just know that if the current economic situation was all sunshine and lollipops, GW would still announce the same increase just without the pretext.
It's a part of why this price increase is bound to get so many negative reactions no matter how much it fits with the current climate. If GW was in the habit of keeping prices reasonably steady and only increased them sparingly and out of economic necessity, I expect you'd see a lot more people accept that GW has to respond to the current troubles to remain profitable. But with the company acting as it does, it's just business as usual with a plausible excuse tacked on for a change.
Everything that you say is true, GW do increase prices year after year.
I'm just trying to be realistic about it, rather than get too emotionally involved.
They act as they do because they have to please shareholders, the only thing that matters to them is making money. I've accepted this, I don't see them as being some kind of altruistic being. EDIT: I'm not saying that you do.
I've justified the price rise this year because it seems more in line with inflation.
EDIT #2: Maybe I need to clarify again, nobody likes the price rises, but I've accepted what GW is.
a greedy company that rather raise prices to keep the profit margin >40% rather than care fore "the hobby" or "the community" and let the margin decrease below 40%
can people stop caring about all those greedy customers and think at least once of all those poor shareholders and CEO's out there that are now on the edge of poverty because of the inflation and really those 40% margin to make a living
a greedy company that rather raise prices to keep the profit margin >40% rather than care fore "the hobby" or "the community" and let the margin decrease below 40%
can people stop caring about all those greedy customers and think at least once of all those poor shareholders and CEO's out there that are now on the edge of poverty because of the inflation and really those 40% margin to make a living
I'm not sure who you are trying to convince here?
GW only cares about the community because without it they wouldn't make any money. Yes, of course.
a greedy company that rather raise prices to keep the profit margin >40% rather than care fore "the hobby" or "the community" and let the margin decrease below 40%
can people stop caring about all those greedy customers and think at least once of all those poor shareholders and CEO's out there that are now on the edge of poverty because of the inflation and really those 40% margin to make a living
I'm not sure who you are trying to convince here?
GW only cares about the community because without it they wouldn't make any money. Yes, of course.
There's nothing eye-opening about this.
It's not surprising, I actually agree some companies could realistically make less money and still function better than they are now, but I'm not going to get angry about GW doing it when our energy providers have doubling record profits year on year.
a greedy company that rather raise prices to keep the profit margin >40% rather than care fore "the hobby" or "the community" and let the margin decrease below 40%
can people stop caring about all those greedy customers and think at least once of all those poor shareholders and CEO's out there that are now on the edge of poverty because of the inflation and really those 40% margin to make a living
I'm not sure who you are trying to convince here?
GW only cares about the community because without it they wouldn't make any money. Yes, of course.
There's nothing eye-opening about this.
On the flip side, the bargain bins at the hobby store and the ebay listings are absolutely littered with what remains of companies that 'cared for the community' but sadly never got quite around to caring for the bottom line. Miniature wargaming is still a tiny market, even as far as hobby markets go, and a couple of failed predicitions, missed launches or overly-high investments in the wrong product line can easily wipe out a company. I'd take an overly aggressive and greedy GW that exists over no GW at all, at least for now.
kodos wrote: GW is just one among many
but this is not a reason to exclude GW or have any sympathy here as "just accept what they are and go on"
because unlike the energy providers, GW is luxury
I need one of them to live and work, the other is a luxury product I don't have to buy if I can't afford it, they are not the same. One is gouging money and price out of human necessity and requirement, the other is milking a little extra for some toys, the level of reaction should not be the same.
a greedy company that rather raise prices to keep the profit margin >40% rather than care fore "the hobby" or "the community" and let the margin decrease below 40%
can people stop caring about all those greedy customers and think at least once of all those poor shareholders and CEO's out there that are now on the edge of poverty because of the inflation and really those 40% margin to make a living
I'm not sure who you are trying to convince here?
GW only cares about the community because without it they wouldn't make any money. Yes, of course.
There's nothing eye-opening about this.
On the flip side, the bargain bins at the hobby store and the ebay listings are absolutely littered with what remains of companies that 'cared for the community' but sadly never got quite around to caring for the bottom line. Miniature wargaming is still a tiny market, even as far as hobby markets go, and a couple of failed predicitions, missed launches or overly-high investments in the wrong product line can easily wipe out a company. I'd take an overly aggressive and greedy GW that exists over no GW at all, at least for now.
Agreed. Cold, hard realism.
If GW's prices get too high they will have to adapt in some way, but until then they will not change their tactics.
All their expansion is paid for from profits alone. This means they've expanded way slower than they could have if they'd taken out big loans and investors. They could have been hyper aggressive in the market and expanded like crazy.
Instead they choose to invest what money they earn into their various projects. Yes the profits they make go to managers and shareholders and staff pockets; but it also goes into their new factories, animations, models and such.
The result is that GW aren't sitting there with millions of debt repayments to make. It's one reason they are majorly resistant during economic slowdowns because they own and control so much of their operation internally. They can adjust to control their overheads and aren't left with a huge chunk that's at the whim of investors/banks.
drbored wrote: If your wage didn't increase by 9% to match inflation, at least... then who is taking advantage of who and making their hobby harder to afford?
9%, hah. Over the last 5 years, I think my salary only went up by 3-4%, well below inflation.
Tsagualsa wrote: On the flip side, the bargain bins at the hobby store and the ebay listings are absolutely littered with what remains of companies that 'cared for the community' but sadly never got quite around to caring for the bottom line.
There's little to suggest these failed companies didn't care about the bottom line. They were just worse at business, unlucky, or both. It's a difference in degree, not kind.
Time to buy now then, rush rush... Thats the Marketing speech here and happens every single year.
Not only in the past they increased prices above inflation they did it in a way to cash in extra sales before the hike. Win Win for them.
The only news here is that this time around (in the UK) its bellow inflation ( looks like US is going to take a hit).
I wonder why... Are they now feeling a slow return in sales in comparison with the covid period?
Have they crunched numbers and felt that saturation levels are to high?
I can imagine if they thought they could raise above inflation... they would!
They might finally feel comfortable after the previous price increase and the wholesale increase. This time, if they don't increase as much as inflation, people will forget that the other things happened.
NAVARRO wrote: Time to buy now then, rush rush... Thats the Marketing speech here and happens every single year.
Not only in the past they increased prices above inflation they did it in a way to cash in extra sales before the hike. Win Win for them.
The only news here is that this time around (in the UK) its bellow inflation ( looks like US is going to take a hit).
I wonder why... Are they now feeling a slow return in sales in comparison with the covid period?
Have they crunched numbers and felt that saturation levels are to high?
I can imagine if they thought they could raise above inflation... they would!
Interesting.
Not to go to far into the political, but the general cost-of-living-situation in the UK is absolutely dire due to the multiple impacts of Brexit, Covid, the War and ofc. the resulting energy prices. Going even as far as raising prices just in accordance with inflation would have meant an increase north of 11%, and could easily have led to a significant backlash. 6% is still a lot, but is probably seen as 'not so bad' compared to the numbers people are forced to getting used to.
Tsagualsa wrote: ... Miniature wargaming is still a tiny market, even as far as hobby markets go, ....
For the record:
The worldwide tabletop games sector that Warhammer is part of will be worth $12bn (£8.6bn) by 2023, up from $7.2bn in 2017, according to the consumer data firm Statista,
Revenue in the Toys & Hobby market amounts to US$502.10bn in 2023. The market is expected to grow annually by 6.56% (CAGR 2023-2027).
The market's largest segment is the segment Toys & Games with a market volume of US$297.70bn in 2023.
So, [tabletop games] is around 4% of the total 'Toys & Games' market, which itself nearly 2x the size of 'Sports Equipment'.
'Toys & Games' grew by 6% in the past year. It is not the same thing as a price rise, (even though the number is the same), but it looks to be fairly in line with the industry.
Tsagualsa wrote: ... Miniature wargaming is still a tiny market, even as far as hobby markets go, ....
For the record:
The worldwide tabletop games sector that Warhammer is part of will be worth $12bn (£8.6bn) by 2023, up from $7.2bn in 2017, according to the consumer data firm Statista,
Revenue in the Toys & Hobby market amounts to US$502.10bn in 2023. The market is expected to grow annually by 6.56% (CAGR 2023-2027).
The market's largest segment is the segment Toys & Games with a market volume of US$297.70bn in 2023.
So, Miniature wargaming is around 4% of the total 'Toys & Games' market, which itself nearly 2x the size of 'Sports Equipment'.
'Toys & Games' grew by 6% in the past year. It is not the same thing as a price rise, (even though the number is the same), but it looks to be fairly in line with the industry.
On that evidence, tabletop gaming is 4% of Toys and Games. Miniature wargaming will be only a portion of that, with board games, RPGs and CCGs making up the rest. Board games and CCGs will, at a guess, be considerably larger chunks than miniature wargaming.
Tsagualsa wrote: ... Miniature wargaming is still a tiny market, even as far as hobby markets go, ....
For the record:
The worldwide tabletop games sector that Warhammer is part of will be worth $12bn (£8.6bn) by 2023, up from $7.2bn in 2017, according to the consumer data firm Statista,
Revenue in the Toys & Hobby market amounts to US$502.10bn in 2023. The market is expected to grow annually by 6.56% (CAGR 2023-2027).
The market's largest segment is the segment Toys & Games with a market volume of US$297.70bn in 2023.
So, Miniature wargaming is around 4% of the total 'Toys & Games' market, which itself nearly 2x the size of 'Sports Equipment'.
'Toys & Games' grew by 6% in the past year. It is not the same thing as a price rise, (even though the number is the same), but it looks to be fairly in line with the industry.
The 'tabletop games sector' does not mean 'tabletop wargames' alone, but includes classic boardgames, pen&paper games, dice games, card games and puzzles. 'Sports Equipment' is also a misleading category, because it excludes the most popular pieces of actual sports equipment, i.e. shoes and clothing.
Tl;dr: marketing statistics are a confusing mess
I'm not saying GW is not insanely profitable, but it still happens over a relatively small market base.
To put things on perspective: Hasbro's classical gaming division, which includes stuff like Magic: the Gathering and the Monopoly boardgame, earned revenues of ~ 1.75 billion USD in 2020, which is about 5 times the revenue that GW generated in that year. And i'd wager a guess that printing glorified cardboard chits and cards is a lot more profitable than distributing plastic and resin figures.
The 'tabletop games sector' does not mean 'tabletop wargames' alone, but includes classic boardgames, pen&paper games, dice games, card games and puzzles. 'Sports Equipment' is also a misleading category, because it excludes the most popular pieces of actual sports equipment, i.e. shoes and clothing.
Tl;dr: marketing statistics are a confusing mess
I'm not saying GW is not insanely profitable, but it still happens over a relatively small market base.
Yeah, I misread that bit.
Something I should have added, is this:
As of February 2023 Games Workshop Group has a market cap of $3.77 Billion.
Whatever that compares to. Around 30% of the worldwide tabletop games sector, if that is a value of worth?
Pre covid GW was making roughly 30% profit after everything, according the market reports.
On the US price change doc doing the rounds i looked at the average of all the listed items
Ave was $29 trade for an $53.5 rrp
Thats gone up to $33 trade and $61 rrp
~$4 trade increase for ~$7.5 rrp
If we presume the previous trade gave them 30% profit they got ~$9-10 profit for $50 item. They have added $4 to the average trade price.
This could be looked as the extra business costs per item to retain current profit levels.
They could have absorbed it and seemingly halfed profits, but I think the downturn and reduced sales that would have occurred even without price rises mean this is an attempt to minimise what they expect will be a significant profit drop.
Businesses like this rely on the fact customers are locked in and will typically still spend their $xx per month hobby budget on GW, regardless of how much paper or plasitic it will get them.
[edit; I do feel sorry for US and other international GW buyers, youve got a rough change here. But this is part of the challenge when buying stuff where the primary market and company base is in another country. In the UK we get royally kicked trying to buy US based stuff so know it sucks]
The 'tabletop games sector' does not mean 'tabletop wargames' alone, but includes classic boardgames, pen&paper games, dice games, card games and puzzles. 'Sports Equipment' is also a misleading category, because it excludes the most popular pieces of actual sports equipment, i.e. shoes and clothing.
Tl;dr: marketing statistics are a confusing mess
I'm not saying GW is not insanely profitable, but it still happens over a relatively small market base.
Yeah, I misread that bit.
Something I should have added, is this:
As of February 2023 Games Workshop Group has a market cap of $3.77 Billion.
Whatever that compares to. Around 30% of the worldwide tabletop games sector, if that is a value of worth?
You are comparing Market Capitalization, i.e. 'How much are all their shares worth at current exchange prices' to some measure of 'What the market is worth' according to Statista, which i guess is not a reasonable comparison to make without knowing how Statista measured that, because again, HASBRO alone is also part of that market and has about 8 billion dollars in market capitalization, so clearly there's some sort of model behind that... I'd need to look that up to comment further. I guess that what they're saying is that global yearly earnings in that market amount to ~7 billion, which may be so, but then it makes no sense to compare that to market capitalization because they have no other relation other than sounding same-ish.
Tsagualsa wrote: You are comparing Market Capitalization, i.e. 'How much are all their shares worth at current exchange prices' to some measure of 'What the market is worth' according to Statista, which i guess is not a reasonable comparison to make without knowing how Statista measured that, because again, HASBRO alone is also part of that market and has about 8 billion dollars in market capitalization, so clearly there's some sort of model behind that... I'd need to look that up to comment further. I guess that what they're saying is that global yearly earnings in that market amount to ~7 billion, which may be so, but then it makes no sense to compare that to market capitalization because they have no other relation other than sounding same-ish.
Tsagualsa wrote: You are comparing Market Capitalization, i.e. 'How much are all their shares worth at current exchange prices' to some measure of 'What the market is worth' according to Statista, which i guess is not a reasonable comparison to make without knowing how Statista measured that, because again, HASBRO alone is also part of that market and has about 8 billion dollars in market capitalization, so clearly there's some sort of model behind that... I'd need to look that up to comment further. I guess that what they're saying is that global yearly earnings in that market amount to ~7 billion, which may be so, but then it makes no sense to compare that to market capitalization because they have no other relation other than sounding same-ish.
Got it (sort of). Thanks.
No problemo It's something that often confuses journalists as well, so you usually need to be super-careful when reading stuff like that, it's easy to miss a qualifier somewhere or fall for a misunderstood summary of a correct source.
Wow I'm in the us and thought the 6% bump after just raising the prices recently was rediculas. This is frankly embarrassing. I'll check in on lore from time to time but GW is dead to me.
Overread wrote: Isn't metals basically a handful of skaven models and that's about it? Chances are production of metals for GW right now is so insanely low compared to everything else that either
1) They don't need to raise prices on them
2) They don't need to single it out in marketing info even if the prices are going to rise. Or more likely in this course, they just forgot that there's 5 or 6 metal models left in the range.
Guard still have a few, the Regimental Advisors, two out of the three Catachan Characters, both sets of Snipers, Pask, and the Preachers (which are shared with sisters).
ccs wrote: I choose paint.
My Grey plastic/base coated stuff seems to play just as well as painted stuff....
But looks awful and encourages compulsive buying habits that waste far more money than the cost of paint. If you want to make 40k an affordable hobby the best thing you can do is buy a single kit, paint it to the highest standard you are capable of doing, and never buy anything else as long as you have unpainted models. The thing that wrecks the budget the most is when you keep impulse buying stuff and end up with a massive (and expensive) pile of shame. That's 100% wasted money and it adds up fast.
a greedy company that rather raise prices to keep the profit margin >40% rather than care fore "the hobby" or "the community" and let the margin decrease below 40%
You just described every single business. If GW's competition could sell at double GW's prices and profits without losing so much sales volume they'd take a net loss overall every single one of them would do it without a moment of hesitation. None of them would give a single about "the hobby" or "the community" if it means more money for the shareholders and more bonus payments to management. You'll be much happier if you accept that this is how capitalism works, GW is nothing special, and you are engaged in a business transaction. I don't give a about GW as more than a source of a product I want to own, GW doesn't give a about me other than as a source of money. No illusions, no disappointment when GW acts in their own best interest instead of as a charity for my benefit.
Yeah, I saw 6% average and didn't flinch. I now see 20% average and I am baffled.
Paging @Polonius, paging @Polonius... tell us again about this market research GW did. You really think somebody told them they could charge 20% more and do better than breaking even? I just don't believe that. I really don't. Maybe GW can raise prices 6% in the UK and break even/do better, fine, I can stomach that. But no way this actually helps them in international markets. The US prices are now Australia-tier stupid. I simply don't believe that this is a good business move.
Just out of curiosity, why not? What marketing data are you using to make this evaluation? It's kind of odd that GW's professional business analysts with access to all of GW's internal data and market research would come to the opposite conclusion, but I'm assuming you have some grounds for disagreeing other than "I don't like those prices".
Aecus Decimus wrote: Initially I was relieved that a 20% increase means I can buy my stuff 20% slower and still participate in the hobby I love
None of us need this hobby, so this take isn't inherantly wrong. But I do find it to be a pretty hilarious response to the increase. I'd sooner just find a less masochistic hobby and focus on that.
Just out of curiosity, why not? What marketing data are you using to make this evaluation? It's kind of odd that GW's professional business analysts with access to all of GW's internal data and market research would come to the opposite conclusion, but I'm assuming you have some grounds for disagreeing other than "I don't like those prices".
No, Bob, it's because I also work in marketing (in a very different industry, mind you, but one that is effected by supply constraints and inflation) and don't ever recall being in a conversation about hiking the price of legacy products 20%. That's why.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: None of us need this hobby, so this take isn't inherantly wrong. But I do find it to be a pretty hilarious response to the increase. I'd sooner just find a less masochistic hobby and focus on that.
Sure. It's perfectly valid to decide that the hobby now costs more than you want to pay, or that you'd rather spend your money on other things. But that's not the same as being unable to continue in the hobby, the hyperbolic claim people are making to fish for sympathy.
Just out of curiosity, why not? What marketing data are you using to make this evaluation? It's kind of odd that GW's professional business analysts with access to all of GW's internal data and market research would come to the opposite conclusion, but I'm assuming you have some grounds for disagreeing other than "I don't like those prices".
No, Bob, it's because I also work in marketing (in a very different industry, mind you, but one that is effected by supply constraints and inflation) and don't ever recall being in a conversation about hiking the price of legacy products 20%. That's why.
GW have convinced themselves into a corner of ''we're special'' a long, long time ago, and even the flushing-out of kirbyite management has not fully undone this yet - as long as they insist on maintaining their own stores, and on ''The GW hobby'' being a different thing from tabletop wargaming at large, you'll have a very hard time in making them see common buisness sense. That being said, their practices are weird, but not unsuccesful - they managed to stay afloat and expand during multiple economic downturns in the last couple of decades.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: No, Bob, it's because I also work in marketing (in a very different industry, mind you, but one that is effected by supply constraints and inflation) and don't ever recall being in a conversation about hiking the price of legacy products 20%. That's why.
I'll grant that you have some professional experience at least, but how do you explain the fact that GW has done similar price increases in the past and continued to increase their annual profit? Why should we expect this particular price increase to have different results?
Debate on Dakka would be a better place if people debated the topic and stopped throwing gak towards posters though.
Capitalism... well well well, I dont know about you, but not even experts seem to agree on what it was supposed to be and what actually is today.
In short leave those big fat "definitions" out of the table please XD
More than ever these big companies have to pretend to have a moral Backbone, its good for business you know.
So no GW is not totally amoral. I dont care either way.
Personally does not affect me at all, I have a determined amount of cash per month to spend on it, if I wish. I dont move from that. If a kit costs me more than that amount, I simply dont buy it or just save for next month. No problemo. Only thing that changes is the quantity of plastic.
They’re a significant element of GW’s success, for a variety of reasons.
First they’re recruitment centres.
Second they’re training centres.
Third. They’re High Street Visibility.
Four. They don’t really have competition on the High Street.
As a former Till Monkey I can go on and on about my tales in this realm, but I’ll spare you that. Pretty sure there’s an old thread floating about somewhere about recollections from former Till Monkeys. I think it’s in Dakka Discussions.
But they’re not the millstone many might think. A significant cost sink, absolutely. But a key part of the wider strategy all the same.
In the UK, maybe. Here in the US, they tend to be stuffed into little out of the way strip malls not convenient to anyone but people specifically looking for them.
NAVARRO wrote: Debate on Dakka would be a better place if people debated the topic and stopped throwing gak towards posters though.
Capitalism... well well well, I dont know about you, but not even experts seem to agree on what it was supposed to be and what actually is today.
In short leave those big fat "definitions" out of the table please XD
More than ever these big companies have to pretend to have a moral Backbone, its good for business you know.
So no GW is not totally amoral. I dont care either way.
Personally does not affect me at all, I have a determined amount of cash per month to spend on it, if I wish. I dont move from that. If a kit costs me more than that amount, I simply dont buy it or just save for next month. No problemo. Only thing that changes is the quantity of plastic.
This is one of the most sensible posts I’ve ever read.
Aecus Decimus wrote: I'll grant that you have some professional experience at least, but how do you explain the fact that GW has done similar price increases in the past and continued to increase their annual profit? Why should we expect this particular price increase to have different results?
They'll keep doing it until there are consequences. What I'd be curious about, and I'm sure someone who pays attention to their quarterly reporting could probably answer this, is how much their volume has increased over the last 10 years. How much have they grown the business versus increased the profit from the same number of sales.
When something like the zone mortalis column and walls set, which is a pretty fringe 40k product, increases its price by 40+% in two years, I'd love to know who's still buying it in the volume you need to make a table.
In the UK, maybe. Here in the US, they tend to be stuffed into little out of the way strip malls not convenient to anyone but people specifically looking for them.
And there are far more independent stores, often with better locations, competing with them. I'll grant that it might be a great business model for the UK but it seems pretty questionable to apply it elsewhere.
I'll grant that you have some professional experience at least, but how do you explain the fact that GW has done similar price increases in the past and continued to increase their annual profit? Why should we expect this particular price increase to have different results?
That's the thing for me, and maybe it's my memory/lack of time in the hobby. I don't recall GW doing a 20% increase in one go before. Especially not when they had an increase last year also. I'm not saying this is the death of them but I just don't see a high likelihood of this resulting in a net increase of revenues.
NAVARRO wrote: Debate on Dakka would be a better place if people debated the topic and stopped throwing gak towards posters though.
Capitalism... well well well, I dont know about you, but not even experts seem to agree on what it was supposed to be and what actually is today.
In short leave those big fat "definitions" out of the table please XD
More than ever these big companies have to pretend to have a moral Backbone, its good for business you know.
So no GW is not totally amoral. I dont care either way.
Personally does not affect me at all, I have a determined amount of cash per month to spend on it, if I wish. I dont move from that. If a kit costs me more than that amount, I simply dont buy it or just save for next month. No problemo. Only thing that changes is the quantity of plastic.
At the end of the day the simple and unpopular fact of the matter is that Warhammer™ is a hobby - it is neither food, energy, shelter, medical care nor water, and not strictly necessary for survival. If the prices are too high for your personal enjoyment, you can shop around for discounts or bargains, look to the alternative or secondary market, or quit the hobby, either for a period of time or totally. At this point, the yearly hike as almost a tradition, and it is clear that they're not interested in feedback or showing any sign that this practice will stop anytime soon. Useless complaining and getting bitter about this just detracts from your own qualitiy of life, GW no care.
In the UK, maybe. Here in the US, they tend to be stuffed into little out of the way strip malls not convenient to anyone but people specifically looking for them.
And there are far more independent stores, often with better locations, competing with them. I'll grant that it might be a great business model for the UK but it seems pretty questionable to apply it elsewhere.
I can only speak for my own experience 🙂
In the U.K., is a very successful model. Again I’d give personal examples of conversations, sales and what have you, but I’d only bore people.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Here's a fact: I can buy a Gunpla for the same price as 5 dudes, $50+. I'd like to see you argue that the 5 dudes are more a luxury.
That's not what "luxury product" means in this context. It's about whether or not a product is essential, not perceived quality or elite status or whatever. Housing, food, etc, are essential products where you don't really have any choice about buying them. No matter how much the seller raises their prices relative to your income you still have to keep paying and there is huge harm done when people aren't able to afford those costs. Toys, regardless of brand, are not. If someone is unable to afford a GW kit no meaningful harm is done so there's no moral component to GW's pricing.
Oooh, be careful, HBMC might mock you for stating a fact!
Here's a fact: I can buy a Gunpla for the same price as 5 dudes, $50+. I'd like to see you argue that the 5 dudes are more a luxury.
Here’s a thought. Maybe a counter.
What do I do with a Gunpla once it’s bought and assembled?
GW stuff, I can field them in a game. The more a person plays, the greater their investment pays off.
If you’re buying purely to assemble, paint and display? Sure Gunpla May (depending entirely on personal taste) prove the wiser investment.
There's a number of independent games(both minis and RPGs) that are designed with GunPLA in mind as the minis. One of the FLGS in New Orleans runs regular upscaled version Alpha Strike rules using them.
Aecus Decimus wrote: I'll grant that you have some professional experience at least, but how do you explain the fact that GW has done similar price increases in the past and continued to increase their annual profit? Why should we expect this particular price increase to have different results?
They'll keep doing it until there are consequences. What I'd be curious about, and I'm sure someone who pays attention to their quarterly reporting could probably answer this, is how much their volume has increased over the last 10 years. How much have they grown the business versus increased the profit from the same number of sales.
When something like the zone mortalis column and walls set, which is a pretty fringe 40k product, increases its price by 40+% in two years, I'd love to know who's still buying it in the volume you need to make a table.
Their yearly revenue made really big jumps for a couple of years - it more than doubled between 2014 and 2019, and rose another 60% since then, as you can see here:
Now, revenue is obviously not the same as profits, and there are probably some currency effects in there i.e. the devaluation of the GBP, but that is probably of lesser concern for them and it's very hard to argue with what will probably amount to quadrupling revenues in the 10-year period between 2014 and 2024.
Oooh, be careful, HBMC might mock you for stating a fact!
Here's a fact: I can buy a Gunpla for the same price as 5 dudes, $50+. I'd like to see you argue that the 5 dudes are more a luxury.
Here’s a thought. Maybe a counter.
What do I do with a Gunpla once it’s bought and assembled?
GW stuff, I can field them in a game. The more a person plays, the greater their investment pays off.
If you’re buying purely to assemble, paint and display? Sure Gunpla May (depending entirely on personal taste) prove the wiser investment.
1. You can field GW stuff in a bad game where you're paying another $50 for a book, wowzers. Great defense there.
2. Games are slowly being designed to actually be compatible with Gunpla. Saw one at a Game Kastle not too long ago though I had to rush home before I could delve more into it.
Oooh, be careful, HBMC might mock you for stating a fact!
Here's a fact: I can buy a Gunpla for the same price as 5 dudes, $50+. I'd like to see you argue that the 5 dudes are more a luxury.
Here’s a thought. Maybe a counter.
What do I do with a Gunpla once it’s bought and assembled?
GW stuff, I can field them in a game. The more a person plays, the greater their investment pays off.
If you’re buying purely to assemble, paint and display? Sure Gunpla May (depending entirely on personal taste) prove the wiser investment.
There's a number of independent games(both minis and RPGs) that are designed with GunPLA in mind as the minis. One of the FLGS in New Orleans runs regular upscaled version Alpha Strike rules using them.
EviscerationPlague wrote: 1. You can field GW stuff in a bad game where you're paying another $50 for a book, wowzers. Great defense there.
2. Games are slowly being designed to actually be compatible with Gunpla. Saw one at a Game Kastle not too long ago though I had to rush home before I could delve more into it.
Call it a bad game all you like (and there are plenty of arguments that it is) but 40k is indisputably a popular game. Whether or not you personally enjoy the game many people do and it adds considerable value to their model purchases. And that's not at all comparable to some homebrew anime robot game with single-digit players.
Luke82 wrote: Thank god there are so many intellectual titans around here to explain how capitalism and inflation work to us.
Initially I was upset that GW prices have become so ludicrous that I doubt I’ll ever start another army or buy into another one of their games ever again, but now the geniuses have stepped in I realise I was just being a snowflake with no concept of how a free market works.
Hopefully when these boffins have reached their break point, and are mourning being priced out of the hobby and world’s they’ve enjoyed since their childhood, there will still be enough even smarter people around to tell them how silly they are being.
If you've been enjoying them since your childhood, I'd wager you've a mound of stuff likely still on sprue/boxes to chew through, probably multiple armies and can continue to partake in every aspect of the hobby apart form meta chasing and buying stuff.
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mikhaila wrote: And they just walked back the 20% increase and claim (possibly true) it was an error and whoever made the list used a wrong file.
Aecus Decimus wrote: I'll grant that you have some professional experience at least, but how do you explain the fact that GW has done similar price increases in the past and continued to increase their annual profit? Why should we expect this particular price increase to have different results?
They'll keep doing it until there are consequences. What I'd be curious about, and I'm sure someone who pays attention to their quarterly reporting could probably answer this, is how much their volume has increased over the last 10 years. How much have they grown the business versus increased the profit from the same number of sales.
When something like the zone mortalis column and walls set, which is a pretty fringe 40k product, increases its price by 40+% in two years, I'd love to know who's still buying it in the volume you need to make a table.
Their yearly revenue made really big jumps for a couple of years - it more than doubled between 2014 and 2019, and rose another 60% since then, as you can see here:
Now, revenue is obviously not the same as profits, and there are probably some currency effects in there i.e. the devaluation of the GBP, but that is probably of lesser concern for them and it's very hard to argue with what will probably amount to quadrupling revenues in the 10-year period between 2014 and 2024.
I'm not really interested in profits or revenue directly. I'm interested in the make up of the revenue and profits.
Why would they say that the price rise was on average 6%? Was it just incompetence? An outright lie? it's bizarre.
This seems like a PR disaster, a spectacular own goal, but as I've been saying, GW will just keep on GWing until they are hit in the pocket.
I've said that I had long ago accepted what GW are, but this does seem like they may have gone too far.
Time will tell.
The most benevolent take I can come up with is that the article strictly addresses their home market, based on this:
GW wrote:The average change for plastic kits is about 6%. As an example of what you can expect, a Battle Sisters Squad goes up £1.50 from £36 to £37.50.*
* Or local currency equivalent.
The average they calculated is strictly for GBP prices (and may still include all items sold by GW, even those that do not go up in price, to get a lower overall percentile increase to present something more palatable in the public announcement) and the addendum about local currency equivalent is meant to encompass the whole statement, not just the example Sisters squad, as a (deceptive) disclaimer that numbers may vary in different regions. It might be an attempt to make a claim that could be considered true under specific circumstances and therefore not an outright lie, but is not representative of the changes worldwide.
With Britain's economy in the toilet their strategy might shift to taking it easy(ish) on the home market because they have no expectation that local customers would or even could put up with more, and make up for it by increasing prices further outside Britain where the spectacle that is Brexit hasn't had much or any effect. They would then want to present the UK increase because it looks the best and hope that most customers don't follow things too closely. Because GW sets its foreign prices according to price bands of their own making rather than exchange rates, they could plausibly claim that their statement is true and that the intention was to present figures specifically for the British market because screw continentals and ungrateful colonials they are a British company and the rest of the world gets a little "or local equivalent" that they get to learn about when it comes into effect.
It would be a brazenly deceptive (that's marketing for you, right?) attempt to present themselves in the best possible light while doing something as unpopular as raising prices, and if they get called out they could still weasel their way out of it. So, marketing 101.
That's all hypothesis, of course. And like I said, deliberately as benevolent a scenario as I can make it.
Aecus Decimus wrote: I'll grant that you have some professional experience at least, but how do you explain the fact that GW has done similar price increases in the past and continued to increase their annual profit? Why should we expect this particular price increase to have different results?
They'll keep doing it until there are consequences. What I'd be curious about, and I'm sure someone who pays attention to their quarterly reporting could probably answer this, is how much their volume has increased over the last 10 years. How much have they grown the business versus increased the profit from the same number of sales.
When something like the zone mortalis column and walls set, which is a pretty fringe 40k product, increases its price by 40+% in two years, I'd love to know who's still buying it in the volume you need to make a table.
Their yearly revenue made really big jumps for a couple of years - it more than doubled between 2014 and 2019, and rose another 60% since then, as you can see here:
Now, revenue is obviously not the same as profits, and there are probably some currency effects in there i.e. the devaluation of the GBP, but that is probably of lesser concern for them and it's very hard to argue with what will probably amount to quadrupling revenues in the 10-year period between 2014 and 2024.
I'm not really interested in profits or revenue directly. I'm interested in the make up of the revenue and profits.
Easy enough. Go to their Investor Relations Page, poke through their 6 month and Annual reports.
They don’t break down by game system, but do offer Territorials, and you can work out their overall profit margin by comparing income to declared profit. And on the declare thing? Being a U.K. public company, I understand those figures have to be independently audited
Aecus Decimus wrote: I'll grant that you have some professional experience at least, but how do you explain the fact that GW has done similar price increases in the past and continued to increase their annual profit? Why should we expect this particular price increase to have different results?
They'll keep doing it until there are consequences. What I'd be curious about, and I'm sure someone who pays attention to their quarterly reporting could probably answer this, is how much their volume has increased over the last 10 years. How much have they grown the business versus increased the profit from the same number of sales.
When something like the zone mortalis column and walls set, which is a pretty fringe 40k product, increases its price by 40+% in two years, I'd love to know who's still buying it in the volume you need to make a table.
Their yearly revenue made really big jumps for a couple of years - it more than doubled between 2014 and 2019, and rose another 60% since then, as you can see here:
Now, revenue is obviously not the same as profits, and there are probably some currency effects in there i.e. the devaluation of the GBP, but that is probably of lesser concern for them and it's very hard to argue with what will probably amount to quadrupling revenues in the 10-year period between 2014 and 2024.
I'm not really interested in profits or revenue directly. I'm interested in the make up of the revenue and profits.
What do you need? A breakup by country, or by buisness unit, e.g. games, licensing, paints etc.? I'll see what i can find in the yearly reports.
Luke82 wrote: Thank god there are so many intellectual titans around here to explain how capitalism and inflation work to us.
Initially I was upset that GW prices have become so ludicrous that I doubt I’ll ever start another army or buy into another one of their games ever again, but now the geniuses have stepped in I realise I was just being a snowflake with no concept of how a free market works.
Hopefully when these boffins have reached their break point, and are mourning being priced out of the hobby and world’s they’ve enjoyed since their childhood, there will still be enough even smarter people around to tell them how silly they are being.
If you've been enjoying them since your childhood, I'd wager you've a mound of stuff likely still on sprue/boxes to chew through, probably multiple armies and can continue to partake in every aspect of the hobby apart form meta chasing and buying stuff.
Well yes, but this doesn’t stop it being a shame that it has now become impossible to get excited for any new stuff because the prices will make me want to vomit. And this isn’t about affordability, buying a £40 box of 3 models isn’t the difference between keeping the lights on this month, it’s just that it doesn’t in any way represent good value compared to other comparable stuff (other games / models, no amateur asteroid mining required!).
That’s what some of the Gordon Gekko’s in here could do with remembering, it’s not about the cost it’s about the value becoming less and less. Snap your braces and say ‘be less poor’ all you want, but not everyone is happy to bite the pillow a bit harder and thank their overlords for slowing down their purchases by 20%.
And yes GW are not gonna care, and perhaps they don’t need to at the moment, but it is still a shame that this is happening to people and it would be better if it didn’t.
mikhaila wrote: And they just walked back the 20% increase and claim (possibly true) it was an error and whoever made the list used a wrong file.
So, the “useless” pushback had more of an effect than just quietly going along with things and not complaining? Imagine that.
Yeah, or it wasn't true to begin with and you all went on a crazy hayride due to internet chinese whispers. We'll probably never know, and everybody is entitled to their own conclusions.
Luke82 wrote: Thank god there are so many intellectual titans around here to explain how capitalism and inflation work to us.
Initially I was upset that GW prices have become so ludicrous that I doubt I’ll ever start another army or buy into another one of their games ever again, but now the geniuses have stepped in I realise I was just being a snowflake with no concept of how a free market works.
Hopefully when these boffins have reached their break point, and are mourning being priced out of the hobby and world’s they’ve enjoyed since their childhood, there will still be enough even smarter people around to tell them how silly they are being.
If you've been enjoying them since your childhood, I'd wager you've a mound of stuff likely still on sprue/boxes to chew through, probably multiple armies and can continue to partake in every aspect of the hobby apart form meta chasing and buying stuff.
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mikhaila wrote: And they just walked back the 20% increase and claim (possibly true) it was an error and whoever made the list used a wrong file.
NAVARRO wrote: Personally does not affect me at all, I have a determined amount of cash per month to spend on it, if I wish. I dont move from that. If a kit costs me more than that amount, I simply dont buy it or just save for next month. No problemo. Only thing that changes is the quantity of plastic.
That's more or less it for me. I'm not on a strict budget but I have a general sense of what I should spend over the course of a year. If I don't see the value, I don't buy it, and it usually works out. If people want to walk away, I understand and they're 100% entitled to do that. What I don't get is acting like there's some high moral ground to be had with discretionary spending over a niche hobby.
Luke82 wrote: That’s what some of the Gordon Gekko’s in here could do with remembering, it’s not about the cost it’s about the value becoming less and less. Snap your braces and say ‘be less poor’ all you want, but not everyone is happy to bite the pillow a bit harder and thank their overlords for slowing down their purchases by 20%.
And not everyone is slowed down. If your constraint is time, not money, then a 20% increase in prices doesn't slow things down at all. That's the relevance of the comparison to adult hobbies: for most adults in decent careers GW is a cheap hobby and they could easily buy twice as much GW stuff while still falling well short of the cost of other hobbies. But that doesn't matter much if you can only afford to spend enough time to build and paint a single kit and maybe play a game or two if schedules work out. If your hobby budget is $100/month going from $50 for that one kit to $75 for that one kit has no effect on your participation in the hobby.
Where price increases hurt is with the obsessive hoarders who have 4-5 figure piles of shame because they feel compelled to buy every single new release or treat the hobby as retail therapy. I admit that if you're going from $500/month to $750/month that's a significant change but if you're spending that much money you're either a "pro player"/commission painter/etc doing this as a job or you really need to ask yourself some difficult questions about your spending habits.
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BobtheInquisitor wrote: So, the “useless” pushback had more of an effect than just quietly going along with things and not complaining? Imagine that.
I doubt it. Some mixed opinions on a forum, no worse than the usual complaints that happen every time GW increases their prices, are unlikely to have made that kind of immediate impact. It's far more likely that a document that was never intended for public release had an error and GW corrected that error to match their public statements on the subject.
Jihadin wrote: I stopped playing over a year ago. So many mini's still need to be painted. Broke out all my mini's for Battletech now......way cheaper.
It’s funny how easy battletech makes it, I have enough mechs to introduce players and play full games with them. And I still feel I haven’t spent too much on it.
I think all my GW hobby money will end up going there for now, easy easy.
No GW game is worth the prices.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: So, the “useless” pushback had more of an effect than just quietly going along with things and not complaining? Imagine that.
I doubt it. Some mixed opinions on a forum, no worse than the usual complaints that happen every time GW increases their prices, are unlikely to have made that kind of immediate impact. It's far more likely that a document that was never intended for public release had an error and GW corrected that error to match their public statements on the subject.
Indeed, this is pretty short for a GW pricing thread. If GW were worried about pushback they'd be fine with this.
More likely is that given the pricing sheet contradicted the public statement it was genuinely just a cockup.
Aecus Decimus wrote: I doubt it. Some mixed opinions on a forum, no worse than the usual complaints that happen every time GW increases their prices, are unlikely to have made that kind of immediate impact. It's far more likely that a document that was never intended for public release had an error and GW corrected that error to match their public statements on the subject.
The truth will come out soon enough. Given their increase last year, it seems unlikely that this list was wrong as it reflects a similar approach.
The consequence of the increase won't be shown until their next earnings report. I'd guess not much will change. My own conjecture is they know that the bulk of their sales come from people who have no impulse control and who do not adjust their purchasing habits to price increases. But that's not based on anything substantive.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: Yeah, I saw 6% average and didn't flinch. I now see 20% average and I am baffled.
Paging @Polonius, paging @Polonius... tell us again about this market research GW did. You really think somebody told them they could charge 20% more and do better than breaking even? I just don't believe that. I really don't. Maybe GW can raise prices 6% in the UK and break even/do better, fine, I can stomach that. But no way this actually helps them in international markets. The US prices are now Australia-tier stupid. I simply don't believe that this is a good business move.
Well, the smarmy answer is that since Australia and NZ support that level of price, the US could as well.
More seriously, a 20% jump is huge. That’s like those early price hikes from the early 2000s, but back then $20 boxes went to $25.
We’ll see what the final prices shake out as. The leaked prices seem really aggressive
I'm not sure what truth you expect to come out? GW has already directly said that the price list is incorrect and those will not be the actual prices. I doubt they're going to leak whether the original list was a genuine mistake vs. a poorly received attempt to increase prices beyond the original public statement so this is all we get.
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Polonius wrote: We’ll see what the final prices shake out as. The leaked prices seem really aggressive
FYI, since you may have missed it on a previous page: GW has already directly told retailers that the price list is incorrect and actual prices will be lower.
If that list was legitimately put out by GW in error, I suspect those might be planned prices for next year's increases (this is the exact same time of year GW announced raised prices last year, so they may have such planned out well ahead of time), as that could easily explain (but still not justify) the more than double 6% increases if so.
Do we know if GW is raising staff wages by a decent amount, to take into account the cost of living crisis in the UK? I'd be happy to pay 6% more for my chaos thugs if I knew the staff were getting an above-inflation pay rise this year.
GW don't change things because they screwed up, they just increase their prices to make up for the lost customers. XD
They increased their prices in anticipation of inflation, increase it again to cover that inflation as it's happening, then increase it one more time to help cover the inflation that already happened. And then ready themselves to repeat the cycle all over again. I'd be more confident it would work if their fans weren't getting so defensive about it, it's obviously a strain to both customers who leave AND customers who stay. When I enjoy a product that's overpriced I'll just say, "It's expensive for what you get, but I really like it so I'm willing to spend the difference." That's what you want as a company, customers with no cognitive dissonance. With GW their constant price increases may ultimately have a loot box effect, where customers all slowly get fed up, both loving the product and getting angrier at it, until you reach the wall and 25-50% of the audience walks away within one to two years time. And with millionaire 13 year-olds on the decline, an inability to replace customers will hit them at the worst possible moment.
Then again, they own space marines, why not another 10% in March for good measure.
To anybody who shops at Element, Wayland etc it's going to be two price rises, obviously not including starter sets/paints.
Hell yeah, I get everything from them, can't understand why I'd buy it from GW directly at those prices. Plus sometimes you get further discounts if boxes are damaged etc.
I've never understood how the prices are still so high. Especially for some of the singular models, over £20 for a single little dude. Hero or not, that's crazy. Plastic is one of the cheapest things to produce, that's why everything in the world is made of it (I exaggerate for effect, but not much). Who votes we lobby GW to start sending in our unwanted plastic models, sprues, bits for them to recycle in a bid to cut costs? Yeah...I thought so to.
Aecus Decimus wrote: I'm not sure what truth you expect to come out? GW has already directly said that the price list is incorrect and those will not be the actual prices. I doubt they're going to leak whether the original list was a genuine mistake vs. a poorly received attempt to increase prices beyond the original public statement so this is all we get.
The truth as to what the actual price increase will be. Ie, the "actual" new price list since they're claiming the one being shared is not accurate.
I do find it interesting that the shared one is wrong but we haven't seen an accurate one. However, I believe it will get leaked by a distributor at some point.
NAVARRO wrote: Debate on Dakka would be a better place if people debated the topic and stopped throwing gak towards posters though.
Capitalism... well well well, I dont know about you, but not even experts seem to agree on what it was supposed to be and what actually is today.
In short leave those big fat "definitions" out of the table please XD
More than ever these big companies have to pretend to have a moral Backbone, its good for business you know.
So no GW is not totally amoral. I dont care either way.
Personally does not affect me at all, I have a determined amount of cash per month to spend on it, if I wish. I dont move from that. If a kit costs me more than that amount, I simply dont buy it or just save for next month. No problemo. Only thing that changes is the quantity of plastic.
At the end of the day the simple and unpopular fact of the matter is that Warhammer™ is a hobby - it is neither food, energy, shelter, medical care nor water, and not strictly necessary for survival. If the prices are too high for your personal enjoyment, you can shop around for discounts or bargains, look to the alternative or secondary market, or quit the hobby, either for a period of time or totally. At this point, the yearly hike as almost a tradition, and it is clear that they're not interested in feedback or showing any sign that this practice will stop anytime soon. Useless complaining and getting bitter about this just detracts from your own qualitiy of life, GW no care.
I underlined the bit Im addressing from your post.
I understand what you are saying but I would like to say that you do not mention one of todays most debated issues (specially important during covid ) which is - Mental health.
Hobbies have been a crucial part of keeping people "safe" during these harsh times, Mental health balance goes hand to hand with hobbies and should not be ignored. For some it's all that they have.
Ian Sturrock wrote: Do we know if GW is raising staff wages by a decent amount, to take into account the cost of living crisis in the UK? I'd be happy to pay 6% more for my chaos thugs if I knew the staff were getting an above-inflation pay rise this year.
Yes, they ran a standard annual 3% rise + extra to bring people up to market value salary where relevant, plus a bonus/shares payout for the staff on top.
By all accounts they're nowhere near as evil as people act.
Note: I know 3% is much below inflation, but for most UK firms, that's actually pretty generous atm.
So GW just had a second price list, with much higher increases, lying around - as you do - and just oopsie doopsie sent that one out instead of the correct one.
Platuan4th wrote: Aecus Decimus, you need to stop being so based, it'll give people a complex.
Can you not bring that adolescent 4chan gak in here.
Having never been to 4-Chan, I literally have no idea what you're talking about, but also no, I think I'll use any vocabulary choice I want despite what you new kids think of it.
For what it's worth your based comment made me chuckle, it was a light in an otherwise dark shitstorm of a thread
Oooh, be careful, HBMC might mock you for stating a fact!
Here's a fact: I can buy a Gunpla for the same price as 5 dudes, $50+. I'd like to see you argue that the 5 dudes are more a luxury.
I have to believe that you made a mistake here and that you meant to quote somebody or something else, because otherwise...your comment has nothing to do with mine, and is totally and utterly random
frankelee wrote: They increased their prices in anticipation of inflation, increase it again to cover that inflation as it's happening, then increase it one more time to help cover the inflation that already happened. And then ready themselves to repeat the cycle all over again. I'd be more confident it would work if their fans weren't getting so defensive about it, it's obviously a strain to both customers who leave AND customers who stay. When I enjoy a product that's overpriced I'll just say, "It's expensive for what you get, but I really like it so I'm willing to spend the difference." That's what you want as a company, customers with no cognitive dissonance. With GW their constant price increases may ultimately have a loot box effect, where customers all slowly get fed up, both loving the product and getting angrier at it, until you reach the wall and 25-50% of the audience walks away within one to two years time. And with millionaire 13 year-olds on the decline, an inability to replace customers will hit them at the worst possible moment.
I wouldn't read too much into forum arguments. Online discussions always attract a vocal minority that is angry about something, has a particular agenda to push, or just likes to argue as an e-sport. You can easily have half the posts on a forum be " YOU GREEDY GW IM NEVER BUYING ANOTHER MODEL AGAIN" while 95% of the actual customers keep buying as usual, and even a lot of the forum critics will still be here a year from now complaining about next year's price increase and trying to pretend we don't all know they bought all the new releases between now and then. This level of complaining is entirely in line with the level of complaining about previous price increases, and despite all the doomsday prophecies about GW's impending failure they're still in business and still making more profit every year.
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Muzzlehatch wrote: I've never understood how the prices are still so high.
Because raw material costs are only a tiny percentage of the total cost, and because the goal is to make money, not to be a charity dedicated to supporting the community with models sold at cost.
Lord Damocles wrote: So GW just had a second price list, with much higher increases, lying around - as you do - and just oopsie doopsie sent that one out instead of the correct one.
Right. Sure. Seems legit.
Spoken like someone who has never had to deal with shared excel sheets at a job. This could easily be something as simple as a typo in a formula, especially if GW has legacy code problems where the guy who made the tools left the company years ago and nobody quite understands why you never change that bit where you multiply a value by 1.00036 except that if you use any other value the whole thing breaks. Or someone copy/pasted the data intended for one currency into the space for a different currency and applied the wrong conversion factor, etc. It's certainly far more believable than the idea that mild criticism of the prices, no worse than the criticism that happens every time GW raises prices, made them panic and hastily retract their planned increase.
Lord Damocles wrote: So GW just had a second price list, with much higher increases, lying around - as you do - and just oopsie doopsie sent that one out instead of the correct one.
Right. Sure. Seems legit.
Spoken like someone who has never had to deal with shared excel sheets at a job.
No, spoken like somebody who's never sent out a massively 'inaccurate' spreadsheet to a continent's worth of customers.
about "the hobby" or "the community" if it means more money for the shareholders and more bonus payments to management. You'll be much happier if you accept that this is how capitalism works, 
