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Aecus Decimus wrote: I'll grant that you have some professional experience at least, but how do you explain the fact that GW has done similar price increases in the past and continued to increase their annual profit? Why should we expect this particular price increase to have different results?
They'll keep doing it until there are consequences. What I'd be curious about, and I'm sure someone who pays attention to their quarterly reporting could probably answer this, is how much their volume has increased over the last 10 years. How much have they grown the business versus increased the profit from the same number of sales.
When something like the zone mortalis column and walls set, which is a pretty fringe 40k product, increases its price by 40+% in two years, I'd love to know who's still buying it in the volume you need to make a table.
Their yearly revenue made really big jumps for a couple of years - it more than doubled between 2014 and 2019, and rose another 60% since then, as you can see here:
Now, revenue is obviously not the same as profits, and there are probably some currency effects in there i.e. the devaluation of the GBP, but that is probably of lesser concern for them and it's very hard to argue with what will probably amount to quadrupling revenues in the 10-year period between 2014 and 2024.
I'm not really interested in profits or revenue directly. I'm interested in the make up of the revenue and profits.
Easy enough. Go to their Investor Relations Page, poke through their 6 month and Annual reports.
They don’t break down by game system, but do offer Territorials, and you can work out their overall profit margin by comparing income to declared profit. And on the declare thing? Being a U.K. public company, I understand those figures have to be independently audited
Aecus Decimus wrote: I'll grant that you have some professional experience at least, but how do you explain the fact that GW has done similar price increases in the past and continued to increase their annual profit? Why should we expect this particular price increase to have different results?
They'll keep doing it until there are consequences. What I'd be curious about, and I'm sure someone who pays attention to their quarterly reporting could probably answer this, is how much their volume has increased over the last 10 years. How much have they grown the business versus increased the profit from the same number of sales.
When something like the zone mortalis column and walls set, which is a pretty fringe 40k product, increases its price by 40+% in two years, I'd love to know who's still buying it in the volume you need to make a table.
Their yearly revenue made really big jumps for a couple of years - it more than doubled between 2014 and 2019, and rose another 60% since then, as you can see here:
Now, revenue is obviously not the same as profits, and there are probably some currency effects in there i.e. the devaluation of the GBP, but that is probably of lesser concern for them and it's very hard to argue with what will probably amount to quadrupling revenues in the 10-year period between 2014 and 2024.
I'm not really interested in profits or revenue directly. I'm interested in the make up of the revenue and profits.
What do you need? A breakup by country, or by buisness unit, e.g. games, licensing, paints etc.? I'll see what i can find in the yearly reports.
Luke82 wrote: Thank god there are so many intellectual titans around here to explain how capitalism and inflation work to us.
Initially I was upset that GW prices have become so ludicrous that I doubt I’ll ever start another army or buy into another one of their games ever again, but now the geniuses have stepped in I realise I was just being a snowflake with no concept of how a free market works.
Hopefully when these boffins have reached their break point, and are mourning being priced out of the hobby and world’s they’ve enjoyed since their childhood, there will still be enough even smarter people around to tell them how silly they are being.
If you've been enjoying them since your childhood, I'd wager you've a mound of stuff likely still on sprue/boxes to chew through, probably multiple armies and can continue to partake in every aspect of the hobby apart form meta chasing and buying stuff.
Well yes, but this doesn’t stop it being a shame that it has now become impossible to get excited for any new stuff because the prices will make me want to vomit. And this isn’t about affordability, buying a £40 box of 3 models isn’t the difference between keeping the lights on this month, it’s just that it doesn’t in any way represent good value compared to other comparable stuff (other games / models, no amateur asteroid mining required!).
That’s what some of the Gordon Gekko’s in here could do with remembering, it’s not about the cost it’s about the value becoming less and less. Snap your braces and say ‘be less poor’ all you want, but not everyone is happy to bite the pillow a bit harder and thank their overlords for slowing down their purchases by 20%.
And yes GW are not gonna care, and perhaps they don’t need to at the moment, but it is still a shame that this is happening to people and it would be better if it didn’t.
mikhaila wrote: And they just walked back the 20% increase and claim (possibly true) it was an error and whoever made the list used a wrong file.
So, the “useless” pushback had more of an effect than just quietly going along with things and not complaining? Imagine that.
Yeah, or it wasn't true to begin with and you all went on a crazy hayride due to internet chinese whispers. We'll probably never know, and everybody is entitled to their own conclusions.
Luke82 wrote: Thank god there are so many intellectual titans around here to explain how capitalism and inflation work to us.
Initially I was upset that GW prices have become so ludicrous that I doubt I’ll ever start another army or buy into another one of their games ever again, but now the geniuses have stepped in I realise I was just being a snowflake with no concept of how a free market works.
Hopefully when these boffins have reached their break point, and are mourning being priced out of the hobby and world’s they’ve enjoyed since their childhood, there will still be enough even smarter people around to tell them how silly they are being.
If you've been enjoying them since your childhood, I'd wager you've a mound of stuff likely still on sprue/boxes to chew through, probably multiple armies and can continue to partake in every aspect of the hobby apart form meta chasing and buying stuff.
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mikhaila wrote: And they just walked back the 20% increase and claim (possibly true) it was an error and whoever made the list used a wrong file.
Where?
In an email sent to retailers.
....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
NAVARRO wrote: Personally does not affect me at all, I have a determined amount of cash per month to spend on it, if I wish. I dont move from that. If a kit costs me more than that amount, I simply dont buy it or just save for next month. No problemo. Only thing that changes is the quantity of plastic.
That's more or less it for me. I'm not on a strict budget but I have a general sense of what I should spend over the course of a year. If I don't see the value, I don't buy it, and it usually works out. If people want to walk away, I understand and they're 100% entitled to do that. What I don't get is acting like there's some high moral ground to be had with discretionary spending over a niche hobby.
Luke82 wrote: That’s what some of the Gordon Gekko’s in here could do with remembering, it’s not about the cost it’s about the value becoming less and less. Snap your braces and say ‘be less poor’ all you want, but not everyone is happy to bite the pillow a bit harder and thank their overlords for slowing down their purchases by 20%.
And not everyone is slowed down. If your constraint is time, not money, then a 20% increase in prices doesn't slow things down at all. That's the relevance of the comparison to adult hobbies: for most adults in decent careers GW is a cheap hobby and they could easily buy twice as much GW stuff while still falling well short of the cost of other hobbies. But that doesn't matter much if you can only afford to spend enough time to build and paint a single kit and maybe play a game or two if schedules work out. If your hobby budget is $100/month going from $50 for that one kit to $75 for that one kit has no effect on your participation in the hobby.
Where price increases hurt is with the obsessive hoarders who have 4-5 figure piles of shame because they feel compelled to buy every single new release or treat the hobby as retail therapy. I admit that if you're going from $500/month to $750/month that's a significant change but if you're spending that much money you're either a "pro player"/commission painter/etc doing this as a job or you really need to ask yourself some difficult questions about your spending habits.
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BobtheInquisitor wrote: So, the “useless” pushback had more of an effect than just quietly going along with things and not complaining? Imagine that.
I doubt it. Some mixed opinions on a forum, no worse than the usual complaints that happen every time GW increases their prices, are unlikely to have made that kind of immediate impact. It's far more likely that a document that was never intended for public release had an error and GW corrected that error to match their public statements on the subject.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/10 17:15:25
Jihadin wrote: I stopped playing over a year ago. So many mini's still need to be painted. Broke out all my mini's for Battletech now......way cheaper.
It’s funny how easy battletech makes it, I have enough mechs to introduce players and play full games with them. And I still feel I haven’t spent too much on it.
I think all my GW hobby money will end up going there for now, easy easy.
No GW game is worth the prices.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: So, the “useless” pushback had more of an effect than just quietly going along with things and not complaining? Imagine that.
I doubt it. Some mixed opinions on a forum, no worse than the usual complaints that happen every time GW increases their prices, are unlikely to have made that kind of immediate impact. It's far more likely that a document that was never intended for public release had an error and GW corrected that error to match their public statements on the subject.
Indeed, this is pretty short for a GW pricing thread. If GW were worried about pushback they'd be fine with this.
More likely is that given the pricing sheet contradicted the public statement it was genuinely just a cockup.
Aecus Decimus wrote: I doubt it. Some mixed opinions on a forum, no worse than the usual complaints that happen every time GW increases their prices, are unlikely to have made that kind of immediate impact. It's far more likely that a document that was never intended for public release had an error and GW corrected that error to match their public statements on the subject.
The truth will come out soon enough. Given their increase last year, it seems unlikely that this list was wrong as it reflects a similar approach.
The consequence of the increase won't be shown until their next earnings report. I'd guess not much will change. My own conjecture is they know that the bulk of their sales come from people who have no impulse control and who do not adjust their purchasing habits to price increases. But that's not based on anything substantive.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: Yeah, I saw 6% average and didn't flinch. I now see 20% average and I am baffled.
Paging @Polonius, paging @Polonius... tell us again about this market research GW did. You really think somebody told them they could charge 20% more and do better than breaking even? I just don't believe that. I really don't. Maybe GW can raise prices 6% in the UK and break even/do better, fine, I can stomach that. But no way this actually helps them in international markets. The US prices are now Australia-tier stupid. I simply don't believe that this is a good business move.
Well, the smarmy answer is that since Australia and NZ support that level of price, the US could as well.
More seriously, a 20% jump is huge. That’s like those early price hikes from the early 2000s, but back then $20 boxes went to $25.
We’ll see what the final prices shake out as. The leaked prices seem really aggressive
I'm not sure what truth you expect to come out? GW has already directly said that the price list is incorrect and those will not be the actual prices. I doubt they're going to leak whether the original list was a genuine mistake vs. a poorly received attempt to increase prices beyond the original public statement so this is all we get.
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Polonius wrote: We’ll see what the final prices shake out as. The leaked prices seem really aggressive
FYI, since you may have missed it on a previous page: GW has already directly told retailers that the price list is incorrect and actual prices will be lower.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/10 17:32:03
If that list was legitimately put out by GW in error, I suspect those might be planned prices for next year's increases (this is the exact same time of year GW announced raised prices last year, so they may have such planned out well ahead of time), as that could easily explain (but still not justify) the more than double 6% increases if so.
Do we know if GW is raising staff wages by a decent amount, to take into account the cost of living crisis in the UK? I'd be happy to pay 6% more for my chaos thugs if I knew the staff were getting an above-inflation pay rise this year.
GW don't change things because they screwed up, they just increase their prices to make up for the lost customers. XD
They increased their prices in anticipation of inflation, increase it again to cover that inflation as it's happening, then increase it one more time to help cover the inflation that already happened. And then ready themselves to repeat the cycle all over again. I'd be more confident it would work if their fans weren't getting so defensive about it, it's obviously a strain to both customers who leave AND customers who stay. When I enjoy a product that's overpriced I'll just say, "It's expensive for what you get, but I really like it so I'm willing to spend the difference." That's what you want as a company, customers with no cognitive dissonance. With GW their constant price increases may ultimately have a loot box effect, where customers all slowly get fed up, both loving the product and getting angrier at it, until you reach the wall and 25-50% of the audience walks away within one to two years time. And with millionaire 13 year-olds on the decline, an inability to replace customers will hit them at the worst possible moment.
Then again, they own space marines, why not another 10% in March for good measure.
To anybody who shops at Element, Wayland etc it's going to be two price rises, obviously not including starter sets/paints.
Hell yeah, I get everything from them, can't understand why I'd buy it from GW directly at those prices. Plus sometimes you get further discounts if boxes are damaged etc.
I've never understood how the prices are still so high. Especially for some of the singular models, over £20 for a single little dude. Hero or not, that's crazy. Plastic is one of the cheapest things to produce, that's why everything in the world is made of it (I exaggerate for effect, but not much). Who votes we lobby GW to start sending in our unwanted plastic models, sprues, bits for them to recycle in a bid to cut costs? Yeah...I thought so to.
Aecus Decimus wrote: I'm not sure what truth you expect to come out? GW has already directly said that the price list is incorrect and those will not be the actual prices. I doubt they're going to leak whether the original list was a genuine mistake vs. a poorly received attempt to increase prices beyond the original public statement so this is all we get.
The truth as to what the actual price increase will be. Ie, the "actual" new price list since they're claiming the one being shared is not accurate.
I do find it interesting that the shared one is wrong but we haven't seen an accurate one. However, I believe it will get leaked by a distributor at some point.
NAVARRO wrote: Debate on Dakka would be a better place if people debated the topic and stopped throwing gak towards posters though.
Capitalism... well well well, I dont know about you, but not even experts seem to agree on what it was supposed to be and what actually is today.
In short leave those big fat "definitions" out of the table please XD
More than ever these big companies have to pretend to have a moral Backbone, its good for business you know.
So no GW is not totally amoral. I dont care either way.
Personally does not affect me at all, I have a determined amount of cash per month to spend on it, if I wish. I dont move from that. If a kit costs me more than that amount, I simply dont buy it or just save for next month. No problemo. Only thing that changes is the quantity of plastic.
At the end of the day the simple and unpopular fact of the matter is that Warhammer™ is a hobby - it is neither food, energy, shelter, medical care nor water, and not strictly necessary for survival. If the prices are too high for your personal enjoyment, you can shop around for discounts or bargains, look to the alternative or secondary market, or quit the hobby, either for a period of time or totally. At this point, the yearly hike as almost a tradition, and it is clear that they're not interested in feedback or showing any sign that this practice will stop anytime soon. Useless complaining and getting bitter about this just detracts from your own qualitiy of life, GW no care.
I underlined the bit Im addressing from your post.
I understand what you are saying but I would like to say that you do not mention one of todays most debated issues (specially important during covid ) which is - Mental health.
Hobbies have been a crucial part of keeping people "safe" during these harsh times, Mental health balance goes hand to hand with hobbies and should not be ignored. For some it's all that they have.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/10 17:42:10
Ian Sturrock wrote: Do we know if GW is raising staff wages by a decent amount, to take into account the cost of living crisis in the UK? I'd be happy to pay 6% more for my chaos thugs if I knew the staff were getting an above-inflation pay rise this year.
Yes, they ran a standard annual 3% rise + extra to bring people up to market value salary where relevant, plus a bonus/shares payout for the staff on top.
By all accounts they're nowhere near as evil as people act.
Note: I know 3% is much below inflation, but for most UK firms, that's actually pretty generous atm.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/10 17:43:06
So GW just had a second price list, with much higher increases, lying around - as you do - and just oopsie doopsie sent that one out instead of the correct one.
Platuan4th wrote: Aecus Decimus, you need to stop being so based, it'll give people a complex.
Can you not bring that adolescent 4chan gak in here.
Having never been to 4-Chan, I literally have no idea what you're talking about, but also no, I think I'll use any vocabulary choice I want despite what you new kids think of it.
For what it's worth your based comment made me chuckle, it was a light in an otherwise dark shitstorm of a thread
Oooh, be careful, HBMC might mock you for stating a fact!
Here's a fact: I can buy a Gunpla for the same price as 5 dudes, $50+. I'd like to see you argue that the 5 dudes are more a luxury.
I have to believe that you made a mistake here and that you meant to quote somebody or something else, because otherwise...your comment has nothing to do with mine, and is totally and utterly random
frankelee wrote: They increased their prices in anticipation of inflation, increase it again to cover that inflation as it's happening, then increase it one more time to help cover the inflation that already happened. And then ready themselves to repeat the cycle all over again. I'd be more confident it would work if their fans weren't getting so defensive about it, it's obviously a strain to both customers who leave AND customers who stay. When I enjoy a product that's overpriced I'll just say, "It's expensive for what you get, but I really like it so I'm willing to spend the difference." That's what you want as a company, customers with no cognitive dissonance. With GW their constant price increases may ultimately have a loot box effect, where customers all slowly get fed up, both loving the product and getting angrier at it, until you reach the wall and 25-50% of the audience walks away within one to two years time. And with millionaire 13 year-olds on the decline, an inability to replace customers will hit them at the worst possible moment.
I wouldn't read too much into forum arguments. Online discussions always attract a vocal minority that is angry about something, has a particular agenda to push, or just likes to argue as an e-sport. You can easily have half the posts on a forum be " YOU GREEDY GW IM NEVER BUYING ANOTHER MODEL AGAIN" while 95% of the actual customers keep buying as usual, and even a lot of the forum critics will still be here a year from now complaining about next year's price increase and trying to pretend we don't all know they bought all the new releases between now and then. This level of complaining is entirely in line with the level of complaining about previous price increases, and despite all the doomsday prophecies about GW's impending failure they're still in business and still making more profit every year.
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Muzzlehatch wrote: I've never understood how the prices are still so high.
Because raw material costs are only a tiny percentage of the total cost, and because the goal is to make money, not to be a charity dedicated to supporting the community with models sold at cost.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/10 17:50:35
Lord Damocles wrote: So GW just had a second price list, with much higher increases, lying around - as you do - and just oopsie doopsie sent that one out instead of the correct one.
Right. Sure. Seems legit.
Spoken like someone who has never had to deal with shared excel sheets at a job. This could easily be something as simple as a typo in a formula, especially if GW has legacy code problems where the guy who made the tools left the company years ago and nobody quite understands why you never change that bit where you multiply a value by 1.00036 except that if you use any other value the whole thing breaks. Or someone copy/pasted the data intended for one currency into the space for a different currency and applied the wrong conversion factor, etc. It's certainly far more believable than the idea that mild criticism of the prices, no worse than the criticism that happens every time GW raises prices, made them panic and hastily retract their planned increase.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/10 17:54:35
Lord Damocles wrote: So GW just had a second price list, with much higher increases, lying around - as you do - and just oopsie doopsie sent that one out instead of the correct one.
Right. Sure. Seems legit.
Spoken like someone who has never had to deal with shared excel sheets at a job.
No, spoken like somebody who's never sent out a massively 'inaccurate' spreadsheet to a continent's worth of customers.
YOU GREEDY 
