I think that these new marine supplements have many rules that seem like the writer didn't at all consider how it would feel to the opponent.
A lot of unfun stuff.Super touch regenerating vehicles, character that can hit you and run before you can hit back, units that are on your face on turn one, untargetable units and your characters being mercilessly sniped. As a marine player I fully agree that marines needed a big buff, but a lot of this stuff is just very gimmicky and does not result enjoyable games.
Crimson wrote: I think that these new marine supplements have many rules that seem like the writer didn't at all consider how it would feel to the opponent.
A lot of unfun stuff.Super touch regenerating vehicles, character that can hit you and run before you can hit back, units that are on your face on turn one, untargetable units and your characters being mercilessly sniped. As a marine player I fully agree that marines needed a big buff, but a lot of this stuff is just very gimmicky and does not result enjoyable games.
I agree with this entirely.
Self sacrifice is bonkers.
As anyone with Grot shields would know - manipulating the targets an enemy has to fire upon is incredibly powerful.
I'm not sure I like this for the same reason I'm not sure I like Grot Shields - it takes away choice and agency from one player and hands it entirely to another who's turn it isn't. That's not cool, in my opinion.
Crimson wrote: I think that these new marine supplements have many rules that seem like the writer didn't at all consider how it would feel to the opponent.
A lot of unfun stuff.Super touch regenerating vehicles, character that can hit you and run before you can hit back, units that are on your face on turn one, untargetable units and your characters being mercilessly sniped. As a marine player I fully agree that marines needed a big buff, but a lot of this stuff is just very gimmicky and does not result enjoyable games.
I agree 100% and am glad marines got a much needed buff. But in traditional GW fashion, rather then incrementally boosting a book, in this case adding the doctrines and finally distributing chapter tactics across all units, they decided to basically triple the chapter tactic buffs and then add stratagems that were clearly designed for a narrative and not a balanced match.
Also, as an aside, how stupid is it that they literally released a 2.0 chaos space marine book that didn't give legion traits to their vehicles like marines. Same with GSC. It's like they are trying to avoid continuity across the game
Crimson wrote: I think that these new marine supplements have many rules that seem like the writer didn't at all consider how it would feel to the opponent.
A lot of unfun stuff.Super touch regenerating vehicles, character that can hit you and run before you can hit back, units that are on your face on turn one, untargetable units and your characters being mercilessly sniped. As a marine player I fully agree that marines needed a big buff, but a lot of this stuff is just very gimmicky and does not result enjoyable games.
I agree with this entirely.
Self sacrifice is bonkers.
As anyone with Grot shields would know - manipulating the targets an enemy has to fire upon is incredibly powerful.
I'm not sure I like this for the same reason I'm not sure I like Grot Shields - it takes away choice and agency from one player and hands it entirely to another who's turn it isn't. That's not cool, in my opinion.
It turns one player into an NPC essentially which is stupid. I am at the point where I think the game would be much healthier if they made a universal library of stratagems that any faction could use. It would be WAY easier to balance and even if you miss something at the very least everyone has the same access.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I said it previously and I'll repeat it. If you think this is bad, just wait for the inevitable eldar codex 2.0
Crimson wrote: I think that these new marine supplements have many rules that seem like the writer didn't at all consider how it would feel to the opponent.
A lot of unfun stuff.Super touch regenerating vehicles, character that can hit you and run before you can hit back, units that are on your face on turn one, untargetable units and your characters being mercilessly sniped. As a marine player I fully agree that marines needed a big buff, but a lot of this stuff is just very gimmicky and does not result enjoyable games.
I agree 100% and am glad marines got a much needed buff. But in traditional GW fashion, rather then incrementally boosting a book, in this case adding the doctrines and finally distributing chapter tactics across all units, they decided to basically triple the chapter tactic buffs and then add stratagems that were clearly designed for a narrative and not a balanced match.
Also, as an aside, how stupid is it that they literally released a 2.0 chaos space marine book that didn't give legion traits to their vehicles like marines. Same with GSC. It's like they are trying to avoid continuity across the game
Crimson wrote: I think that these new marine supplements have many rules that seem like the writer didn't at all consider how it would feel to the opponent.
A lot of unfun stuff.Super touch regenerating vehicles, character that can hit you and run before you can hit back, units that are on your face on turn one, untargetable units and your characters being mercilessly sniped. As a marine player I fully agree that marines needed a big buff, but a lot of this stuff is just very gimmicky and does not result enjoyable games.
I agree with this entirely.
Self sacrifice is bonkers.
As anyone with Grot shields would know - manipulating the targets an enemy has to fire upon is incredibly powerful.
I'm not sure I like this for the same reason I'm not sure I like Grot Shields - it takes away choice and agency from one player and hands it entirely to another who's turn it isn't. That's not cool, in my opinion.
It turns one player into an NPC essentially which is stupid. I am at the point where I think the game would be much healthier if they made a universal library of stratagems that any faction could use. It would be WAY easier to balance and even if you miss something at the very least everyone has the same access.
Having a just a few faction specific strats would still be nice though, for that extra bit of flavor. But yeah, there are way too many stratagems in the game already, and some of them shouldn't even be stratagems.
Take the 'ard boys and scar boyz strats - why is that a stratagem? Why can't they be unit entries? Same goes for any strat that modifies a unit's profiles.
Crimson wrote: I think that these new marine supplements have many rules that seem like the writer didn't at all consider how it would feel to the opponent.
A lot of unfun stuff.Super touch regenerating vehicles, character that can hit you and run before you can hit back, units that are on your face on turn one, untargetable units and your characters being mercilessly sniped. As a marine player I fully agree that marines needed a big buff, but a lot of this stuff is just very gimmicky and does not result enjoyable games.
I agree 100% and am glad marines got a much needed buff. But in traditional GW fashion, rather then incrementally boosting a book, in this case adding the doctrines and finally distributing chapter tactics across all units, they decided to basically triple the chapter tactic buffs and then add stratagems that were clearly designed for a narrative and not a balanced match.
Also, as an aside, how stupid is it that they literally released a 2.0 chaos space marine book that didn't give legion traits to their vehicles like marines. Same with GSC. It's like they are trying to avoid continuity across the game
Crimson wrote: I think that these new marine supplements have many rules that seem like the writer didn't at all consider how it would feel to the opponent.
A lot of unfun stuff.Super touch regenerating vehicles, character that can hit you and run before you can hit back, units that are on your face on turn one, untargetable units and your characters being mercilessly sniped. As a marine player I fully agree that marines needed a big buff, but a lot of this stuff is just very gimmicky and does not result enjoyable games.
I agree with this entirely.
Self sacrifice is bonkers.
As anyone with Grot shields would know - manipulating the targets an enemy has to fire upon is incredibly powerful.
I'm not sure I like this for the same reason I'm not sure I like Grot Shields - it takes away choice and agency from one player and hands it entirely to another who's turn it isn't. That's not cool, in my opinion.
It turns one player into an NPC essentially which is stupid. I am at the point where I think the game would be much healthier if they made a universal library of stratagems that any faction could use. It would be WAY easier to balance and even if you miss something at the very least everyone has the same access.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I said it previously and I'll repeat it. If you think this is bad, just wait for the inevitable eldar codex 2.0
I do like reminding people that both the beta sisters and GSC codex have fastly fewer units that benefit from their version of Chapter Tactics as a fraction of the units in their codex than marines ever had, despite the marine players' complaints that they were singled out as the ONLY faction that didn't get CT's on half their units.
CT design and benefit is extremely, extremely inconsistent across the board, and there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason about it at all.
Genestealer Cultists, despite the drivers and gunners of their vehicles being for the most part totally visible and very clearly members of the cult, suddenly lose their cult traits when stepping into a truck. Sisters, Chaos Marines, and non-codex compliant marine armies, despite driving the EXACT SAME vehicles that now gain the super-powerful new marine chapter tactics, do not get tactics when piloted by one of those factions.
Sadly, it all comes down to the profit motive. Rules make money for games workshop. they are part of the profit margin. That creates the opposite of a motivator toward balance: People will only buy rules they think make them better. for rules to be "Better" they either have to be better than their previous iteration...or better than rules that other factions get. From a balance perspective, it makes no sense at all to release Marine Codex 2.0 with special super-duper strong chapter tactics that you can customize and doctrines for not taking allies and CTs on all your Vehicles, and then NOT go across the board and give at least the basics of that to everyone.
But it makes perfect sense when you know that Marine Codex 2.0 costs 50 bucks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, let's play the "What's the stupidest IMPERIUM infantry unit we can make untargetable with this stratagem" game? Assume you've got a cheap salamander lieutenant or something to key the stratagem off of.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Couldn't you just put that on a character and have nothing be able to be shot? He still has character protection from the other goons.
yup. And it works on all infantry units IN YOUR ARMY. So, not just space marines!
So what are we thinking - naked DW vets with stalker bolt rifles? Salamander Devastators? Ratlings? IGHWTs?
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Couldn't you just put that on a character and have nothing be able to be shot? He still has character protection from the other goons.
yup. And it works on all infantry units IN YOUR ARMY. So, not just space marines!
So what are we thinking - naked DW vets with stalker bolt rifles? Salamander Devastators? Ratlings? IGHWTs?
Yeah I don't see this surviving an FAQRAW. It's actually broken.
It makes me laugh though. Because clearly they are not play testing things across the board. I understand that 40k is way too big and clunky to do proper play testing, especially with all the variables to consider, it would take teams of people 1000's of hours. But rules like that really make it hard to not be cynical.
That stratagem shouldn't have even made it past a cursory reading of the rule by the rules team. No playing even needed. The fact that they somehow manage to send out rules that obviously broken should really illustrate to folks the caliber of players they are.
I feel like at this point in time they may not really be bothering with play testing since they can't cover everything anyway and are relying on being reactive rather then proactive. Because it feels like they are constantly racing to plug holes in the dam while they are actively making newer bigger holes. Like I said before, the fact that that made it into a final draft of the codex when even a simple read through by someone with a basic understanding of the core rules should have caught it is really embarrassing.
Red Corsair wrote: It makes me laugh though. Because clearly they are not play testing things across the board. I understand that 40k is way too big and clunky to do proper play testing, especially with all the variables to consider, it would take teams of people 1000's of hours. But rules like that really make it hard to not be cynical.
That stratagem shouldn't have even made it past a cursory reading of the rule by the rules team. No playing even needed. The fact that they somehow manage to send out rules that obviously broken should really illustrate to folks the caliber of players they are.
I feel like at this point in time they may not really be bothering with play testing since they can't cover everything anyway and are relying on being reactive rather then proactive. Because it feels like they are constantly racing to plug holes in the dam while they are actively making newer bigger holes. Like I said before, the fact that that made it into a final draft of the codex when even a simple read through by someone with a basic understanding of the core rules should have caught it is really embarrassing.
It is being tested by teams of people and thousands of hours. Us. As long they fix the breaks reasonably quickly what's the big deal? It's like in IT: Pull the plug and see who screams.
Red Corsair wrote: It makes me laugh though. Because clearly they are not play testing things across the board. I understand that 40k is way too big and clunky to do proper play testing, especially with all the variables to consider, it would take teams of people 1000's of hours. But rules like that really make it hard to not be cynical.
That stratagem shouldn't have even made it past a cursory reading of the rule by the rules team. No playing even needed. The fact that they somehow manage to send out rules that obviously broken should really illustrate to folks the caliber of players they are.
I feel like at this point in time they may not really be bothering with play testing since they can't cover everything anyway and are relying on being reactive rather then proactive. Because it feels like they are constantly racing to plug holes in the dam while they are actively making newer bigger holes. Like I said before, the fact that that made it into a final draft of the codex when even a simple read through by someone with a basic understanding of the core rules should have caught it is really embarrassing.
It is being tested by teams of people and thousands of hours. Us. As long they fix the breaks reasonably quickly what's the big deal? It's like in IT: Pull the plug and see who screams.
Reasonably quickly.
Lmao
Let’s see.
Ca, only come rarely.
Faq, hit and miss.
FW index armies, still in shambels since the start of 8the.
Core book stratagem and traits, completly gak.
Codex updates, either power-creep or fixed nothing.
I don’t think it stacks with the character targeting rule, even RAW. Doesn’t the rule book state that a rule can be overridden by another? In this case, you’d be picking the character to be the only thing that’s targetable thus overriding the character targeting rule. Not even GW is that incompetent enough to not take the character targeting rule into account, surely.
zend wrote: I don’t think it stacks with the character targeting rule, even RAW. Doesn’t the rule book state that a rule can be overridden by another? In this case, you’d be picking the character to be the only thing that’s targetable thus overriding the character targeting rule. Not even GW is that incompetent enough to not take the character targeting rule into account, surely.
There is nothing that would stop them from stacking.
If there's a character sitting out with the Strategem on them, and you can't target the character, wouldn't there be a closer visible enemy unit for you to shoot regardless of the Stratagem?
Crazyterran wrote: If there's a character sitting out with the Strategem on them, and you can't target the character, wouldn't there be a closer visible enemy unit for you to shoot regardless of the Stratagem?
Yes there would. And that unit is probably a drop pod or a cheap scout squad etc, and not any of the expensive units with long ranged weapons castling on the backfield that you catually wanted to target.
Crazyterran wrote: If there's a character sitting out with the Strategem on them, and you can't target the character, wouldn't there be a closer visible enemy unit for you to shoot regardless of the Stratagem?
It still manipulates your ability to select targets to shoot. The attacking unit has to have the target they want to shoot be the closest enemy unit to them. That's a pretty big deal as it forces you to move in such a way to have the unit you want to target be the closest thing to you which may not always be possible or even if it is you are still heavily restricted by potential screens of other less valuable units.
Crazyterran wrote: If there's a character sitting out with the Strategem on them, and you can't target the character, wouldn't there be a closer visible enemy unit for you to shoot regardless of the Stratagem?
It still manipulates your ability to select targets to shoot. The attacking unit has to have the target they want to shoot be the closest enemy unit to them. That's a pretty big deal as it forces you to move in such a way to have the unit you want to target be the closest thing to you which may not always be possible or even if it is you are still heavily restricted by potential screens of other less valuable units.
Isn't that also removing the sniperrifles ability?
Crazyterran wrote: If there's a character sitting out with the Strategem on them, and you can't target the character, wouldn't there be a closer visible enemy unit for you to shoot regardless of the Stratagem?
It still manipulates your ability to select targets to shoot. The attacking unit has to have the target they want to shoot be the closest enemy unit to them. That's a pretty big deal as it forces you to move in such a way to have the unit you want to target be the closest thing to you which may not always be possible or even if it is you are still heavily restricted by potential screens of other less valuable units.
Isn't that also removing the sniperrifles ability?
Yep, Sniper Rifles will not even be able to target units in a Salamanders Invinciblob.
Eh, it just seems like some sloppy copy-pasting from the character rules. The "must be visible" part doesn't really make sense where it is (since you generally need to see things to shoot them, anyway), so was likely intended to be a clause for the martyr unit in order to prevent a unit of hiding scouts from protecting people. The lack of character restriction is an oversight, I'd imagine, and will this will either be non-character or allow characters to be shot at if used as soon as the two week faq drops.
With those changes, it won't be that bad. Just shoot the unit that's out front to absorb bullets. I guess they could slowly walk their all-infantry army up behind a line of TH/SS termies or something, but that sort of shield wall seems thematic and really wouldn't be too scary. What single unit of infantry would do more than moderately disrupt your targeting parameters (assuming you hadn't planned on shooting them anyway) for your anti-infantry guns for part of one turn?
I guess it would suck as an all-knight army with only a couple of anti-infantry guns to have to "waste" AGCs on scouts instead of the juicier things behind, but you're fast and want to close most of the time, anyway.
Crimson wrote: I think that these new marine supplements have many rules that seem like the writer didn't at all consider how it would feel to the opponent.
A lot of unfun stuff.Super touch regenerating vehicles, character that can hit you and run before you can hit back, units that are on your face on turn one, untargetable units and your characters being mercilessly sniped. As a marine player I fully agree that marines needed a big buff, but a lot of this stuff is just very gimmicky and does not result enjoyable games.
Red Corsair wrote: It makes me laugh though. Because clearly they are not play testing things across the board. I understand that 40k is way too big and clunky to do proper play testing, especially with all the variables to consider, it would take teams of people 1000's of hours. But rules like that really make it hard to not be cynical.
That stratagem shouldn't have even made it past a cursory reading of the rule by the rules team. No playing even needed. The fact that they somehow manage to send out rules that obviously broken should really illustrate to folks the caliber of players they are.
I feel like at this point in time they may not really be bothering with play testing since they can't cover everything anyway and are relying on being reactive rather then proactive. Because it feels like they are constantly racing to plug holes in the dam while they are actively making newer bigger holes. Like I said before, the fact that that made it into a final draft of the codex when even a simple read through by someone with a basic understanding of the core rules should have caught it is really embarrassing.
It is being tested by teams of people and thousands of hours. Us. As long they fix the breaks reasonably quickly what's the big deal? It's like in IT: Pull the plug and see who screams.
That would be totally fine if they had a living document and everyone had access to the rules through an army building ap. Just charge a subscription or a one time fee for the ap and give everyone access to the same data. Sell edited and tested hard copies later. But they decided to sell folks individual copies of unpolished garbage from day one instead, so no, as long as I am buying this crap it should at the very least pass some standard initially, and this ain't it. I usually give NuGW the benefit of the doubt because the rules are so bloated this late in an edition, but that strat doesn't even pass the test with your eyes closed it's so obviously bad.
Running a community survey once a year isn't going to fix this. They really do need to get with the times when it comes to rules. Hard copies with errata and FAQ's a couple times a year with a release schedule this fast is silly. Better then old GW, but still miles from where they need to be.
Alpharius wrote: Yellow using the new Contrast paints is...surprisingly not too hard.
Agreed. I've painted yellow on TONS of models and there are several different ways to make it REALLY easy. I haven't used Contrast paints yet, but from some of the videos I've seen, using them for Yellow looks on-par with some of the technics I've used in the past.
In my experience, the hardest part about Yellow schemes isn't the yellow at all. Prime White, wash Yellow, recess shade and highlight to taste - done. Contrasts remove the shade + highlight steps.
The hardest part is the darker colors between the yellow bits. But I think Contrasts make that easier too.
people are making too big a deal about that salamanders tactic, remember it requires the unit to be within 6 inches from one another, AND you can still shoot the closest enemy anyway. it'll be useful sure but the odds of being able to protect your entire army is almost non-existant. well unless you're playing some house rules mission format that makes captuing objectives less important. but thats not really GW's fault.
Red Corsair wrote: It makes me laugh though. Because clearly they are not play testing things across the board. I understand that 40k is way too big and clunky to do proper play testing, especially with all the variables to consider, it would take teams of people 1000's of hours. But rules like that really make it hard to not be cynical.
That stratagem shouldn't have even made it past a cursory reading of the rule by the rules team. No playing even needed. The fact that they somehow manage to send out rules that obviously broken should really illustrate to folks the caliber of players they are.
I feel like at this point in time they may not really be bothering with play testing since they can't cover everything anyway and are relying on being reactive rather then proactive. Because it feels like they are constantly racing to plug holes in the dam while they are actively making newer bigger holes. Like I said before, the fact that that made it into a final draft of the codex when even a simple read through by someone with a basic understanding of the core rules should have caught it is really embarrassing.
It is being tested by teams of people and thousands of hours. Us. As long they fix the breaks reasonably quickly what's the big deal? It's like in IT: Pull the plug and see who screams.
That would be totally fine if they had a living document and everyone had access to the rules through an army building ap. Just charge a subscription or a one time fee for the ap and give everyone access to the same data. Sell edited and tested hard copies later. But they decided to sell folks individual copies of unpolished garbage from day one instead, so no, as long as I am buying this crap it should at the very least pass some standard initially, and this ain't it. I usually give NuGW the benefit of the doubt because the rules are so bloated this late in an edition, but that strat doesn't even pass the test with your eyes closed it's so obviously bad.
Running a community survey once a year isn't going to fix this. They really do need to get with the times when it comes to rules. Hard copies with errata and FAQ's a couple times a year with a release schedule this fast is silly. Better then old GW, but still miles from where they need to be.
putting out digtal stuff first and then publishing hard cover later after it's been tested is something a few RPG companies do. it's a bit of a mixed bag really. it tends to be annoying for people who prefer a hard copy product as they eaither have to wait months to get it. or have to buy it twice.
2: cannot target ANY Infantry, from the entire army?
How TF did this even get written, and printed?
It's like you shouldn't t even play a codex for 2 weeks till the FAQ comes out.
cannot target any infantry within 6 inches, unless they're the closest one. of course salamanders flamer bonus means chances are they're always going to have some infantry moving forward. I suspect this will, most often be used to squeeze a turn or two of life out of a back field heavy support unit like Hellblasters that otherwise would be deleted in the opening rounds
2: cannot target ANY Infantry, from the entire army?
How TF did this even get written, and printed?
It's like you shouldn't t even play a codex for 2 weeks till the FAQ comes out.
cannot target any infantry within 6 inches, unless they're the closest one. of course salamanders flamer bonus means chances are they're always going to have some infantry moving forward. I suspect this will, most often be used to squeeze a turn or two of life out of a back field heavy support unit like Hellblasters that otherwise would be deleted in the opening rounds
Yea. But it says Infantry, not Salamanders Infantry.
Have an untargettable Blob squad of Guardsman sit on an Objective, behind an untargettable Character, behind a LOS blocking wall.
2: cannot target ANY Infantry, from the entire army?
How TF did this even get written, and printed?
It's like you shouldn't t even play a codex for 2 weeks till the FAQ comes out.
cannot target any infantry within 6 inches, unless they're the closest one. of course salamanders flamer bonus means chances are they're always going to have some infantry moving forward. I suspect this will, most often be used to squeeze a turn or two of life out of a back field heavy support unit like Hellblasters that otherwise would be deleted in the opening rounds
Yea. But it says Infantry, not Salamanders Infantry.
Have an untargettable Blob squad of Guardsman sit on an Objective, behind an untargettable Character, behind a LOS blocking wall.
why on earth would a Salamanders specific stratagem do anything for non-Salamanders? Furthermore what self respecting Salamanders player doing in the adding guard to their list?
As a Salamanders player these look good, not sure how many I'll use tho. I cant wait till the next "broken" thing comes out so I wont have to deal with OP bitching for too long.
2: cannot target ANY Infantry, from the entire army?
How TF did this even get written, and printed?
It's like you shouldn't t even play a codex for 2 weeks till the FAQ comes out.
cannot target any infantry within 6 inches, unless they're the closest one. of course salamanders flamer bonus means chances are they're always going to have some infantry moving forward. I suspect this will, most often be used to squeeze a turn or two of life out of a back field heavy support unit like Hellblasters that otherwise would be deleted in the opening rounds
Yeah I mean on the other hand screw that ability because flamers are bad.
Backfield devs and stationary stern guard clumped around a captain and lieutenant is going to be ridiculously hard to deal with. The only unit that will ever use that flamer bonus is the invictus dread.
2: cannot target ANY Infantry, from the entire army?
How TF did this even get written, and printed?
It's like you shouldn't t even play a codex for 2 weeks till the FAQ comes out.
cannot target any infantry within 6 inches, unless they're the closest one. of course salamanders flamer bonus means chances are they're always going to have some infantry moving forward. I suspect this will, most often be used to squeeze a turn or two of life out of a back field heavy support unit like Hellblasters that otherwise would be deleted in the opening rounds
Yea. But it says Infantry, not Salamanders Infantry.
Have an untargettable Blob squad of Guardsman sit on an Objective, behind an untargettable Character, behind a LOS blocking wall.
why on earth would a Salamanders specific stratagem do anything for non-Salamanders? Furthermore what self respecting Salamanders player doing in the adding guard to their list?
Because it doesn't specify that only Salamanders are affected? That's what it says RAW, and you can bet that a lot of people will play it that way.
Crazyterran wrote: If there's a character sitting out with the Strategem on them, and you can't target the character, wouldn't there be a closer visible enemy unit for you to shoot regardless of the Stratagem?
Yeah. Cheap chaff. If you don't mind losing combat doctrine for it even cheap IG infantry by the bucketload.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CthuluIsSpy wrote: [
Because it doesn't specify that only Salamanders are affected? That's what it says RAW, and you can bet that a lot of people will play it that way.
Certainly I can think up bunch of ways I could use small salamanader detachment for this. Hell even IG heavy weapon teams with lascannon might become somewhat viable being immune to shooting behind salamanader character.
Regarding the BT vs Orks rumor in the title. This is from a source on a french forum, who had accurate information before. The posts were collected and shared and translated by Sete and Metaliptica on Bolter & Chainsword
Metaliptica - B&C
French guy here. Here is a translation of the OG post.
"BT isn't a SM supplement. From the SM supplement, only the IF and Salies will be out around end of October. Looking at the infos that are starting to get through, I'm expecting an article about the preorder of these supplements this week end.
BT rules will be in Psychic Awakening Vol.2. In October, we will have the first book featuring Drukharis and Eldars. My personnal opinion is that we'll have to wait until the end of the year. The BT vs Ork box is censored.gif . If a box is to accompany every Psychic Awakening book, then it will more likely be a BT vs Chaos, keeping in mind that we still have a Rumor engine about a chaos sorcerer. But please remember : nothing is sure about a potential box right now"
The source says no BT vs Orks set but SW vs Orks.
From earlier this week, before GW's announcement and artwork reveal on WarCom, collected by Sete on B&C
Kikasstou on french forum
"I read somewhere that a priori we go to +1 to hit and +1 to hurt the characters for the RG. And no penalty with heavy weapons moving IH side. But I do not know for what doctrine. And the BT should be able to hurt self on the 6 to hit in Assault Doctrine.
I think that the IH are being had because the UM indirectly have this bonus with the current formulation of Scion of Guilliman. I do not know if it's totally wanted and that GW was not in the lead to just spin the bonus bolter discipline all the time.
I'm not sure but it seems to me that the Crimson Fist are in the IF supplement. If this is the case they will not have strats / relic / traits / distinctive power unlike BT.
Yes we already had information that the BT would have their own rules but that it would rather be in a campaign supplement and not a supplement SM so logically in Psychic Awakening
The BT will be in closed doctrine indeed. [Sete: The only specific info he said is that BT assault doctrine wounds on hits of 6. ]
It fits quite well with what I read somewhere that the rules of the Blood Angels would be in Volume 3 of Psychic Awakening
I read somewhere that the first volume Psychic Awakening would be dedicated to Drukhari, Arsuyani & Ynarri.
I will repeat myself but the Orks are planned facing the SW and not the BT. The BT should arrive after the Eldar in the next book
It may well be that a Battlebox is planned for the first Tome Psychic Awakening. It will be 100% Aeldaris and 100% plastic. We already know more or less the 2 characters. But what unity could we have in front of the banshees?
I wonder that it will be the redesign of plastic incubations in the box with plastic banshees : P
Here is a Black Templars tab that appeared in Games Workshop site menu ��
You also have an IH / RG / Salamanders / IF / WS / UM tab. No jealous everyone is entitled to its customization kits, supplements, cards etc ..."
Deadfingers - B&C
This all put together, along with rumours from other sources, Rumour Engines, and a bit of recent lore setups and teases from GW, sounds to me like a Shadowspear type of starter with Eldar/Ynnari Vs. Dark Eldar, and he seems to be implying that Jain Zar and Drazhar, like it was mentioned earlier in this thread, will be leading them.
There was a rumor about a potential plastic *edit* Ragnar Blackmane and an Ork character, possibly Ghazhgkull *edit* but I could not find the quote atm...
BT vs Traitor guard would be awesome. Not just for new models but for finally getting a 1/2 decent Renegade Guard rules. Doesn't look like FW index lists are going to see any love any time soon...
This all put together, along with rumours from other sources, Rumour Engines, and a bit of recent lore setups and teases from GW, sounds to me like a Shadowspear type of starter with Eldar/Ynnari Vs. Dark Eldar, and he seems to be implying that Jain Zar and Drazhar, like it was mentioned earlier in this thread, will be leading them.
I would love a boxset like that, but I think the shown banshees and incubus are more likely to be separate multipart boxes.
This all put together, along with rumours from other sources, Rumour Engines, and a bit of recent lore setups and teases from GW, sounds to me like a Shadowspear type of starter with Eldar/Ynnari Vs. Dark Eldar, and he seems to be implying that Jain Zar and Drazhar, like it was mentioned earlier in this thread, will be leading them.
I would love a boxset like that, but I think the shown banshees and incubus are more likely to be separate multipart boxes.
Nothing stopping GW from making a boxset, like Forgebane, looncurse, fang & claw, deathmasque, etc. It would be unusual to see a set have more than 2 new models in it, since they usually just release 2 hqs. But If the boxart models make up the gist of the box, they could easily add some older models to fill out the remaining unit. Drazhar, incubii, and a transport. Jain zharr, banshees, and another unit. etc.
Forgebane had 3 new models. Speed freak had 2 new boxed sets. Shadowspear has whole bunch of new models. Introducing new models in boxed set and solo release separately later is quite common for GW. I can 100% see banshees and incubi first in boxed set only, separately later. Jain zar could fit it as well or that could be solo release along the boxed set.
And it\s not like boxed set and multipart kit are mutually exclusive either...They can be 100% same sprues as in solo release. Just initially in boxed set that costs more than solo box alone but combined worth more than price of boxed set. Again forgebane, speed freaks, shadowspear...
It's not set in stone it is like that but there's precedence for release pattern like that.
2: cannot target ANY Infantry, from the entire army?
How TF did this even get written, and printed?
It's like you shouldn't t even play a codex for 2 weeks till the FAQ comes out.
cannot target any infantry within 6 inches, unless they're the closest one. of course salamanders flamer bonus means chances are they're always going to have some infantry moving forward. I suspect this will, most often be used to squeeze a turn or two of life out of a back field heavy support unit like Hellblasters that otherwise would be deleted in the opening rounds
Yea. But it says Infantry, not Salamanders Infantry.
Have an untargettable Blob squad of Guardsman sit on an Objective, behind an untargettable Character, behind a LOS blocking wall.
why on earth would a Salamanders specific stratagem do anything for non-Salamanders? Furthermore what self respecting Salamanders player doing in the adding guard to their list?
Because it doesn't specify that only Salamanders are affected? That's what it says RAW, and you can bet that a lot of people will play it that way.
But again, explain how a SPACE MARINE STRAT would effect anything that's not a SPACE MARINE. So we should start using strats from other factions on stuff it doesnt belong to? Everyone that I've spoken with agrees that it wouldn't work on anyone other than Salamanders.
RAW makes sense that it wouldnt. Anyone that thinks otherwise is trying to be an removed - kindly stop circumventing the language filter and use it to their advantage. Typical dick move.
Racerguy180 wrote: But again, explain how a SPACE MARINE STRAT would effect anything that's not a SPACE MARINE. So we should start using strats from other factions on stuff it doesnt belong to? Everyone that I've spoken with agrees that it wouldn't work on anyone other than Salamanders.
RAW makes sense that it wouldnt. Anyone that thinks otherwise is trying to be an as_shoale and use it to their advantage. Typical dick move.
By keyword. Book stratagems have long been able to affect things outside book if keywords match. Check death guard FAQ where it's even specifically said so. As long as keywords match it's irrelevant from what book unit and stratagems are.
FAQ specifically gives you ability to affect units outside your codex with your stratagems...Is GW rule team, as you worded it, donkey-cave then?
2: cannot target ANY Infantry, from the entire army?
How TF did this even get written, and printed?
It's like you shouldn't t even play a codex for 2 weeks till the FAQ comes out.
cannot target any infantry within 6 inches, unless they're the closest one. of course salamanders flamer bonus means chances are they're always going to have some infantry moving forward. I suspect this will, most often be used to squeeze a turn or two of life out of a back field heavy support unit like Hellblasters that otherwise would be deleted in the opening rounds
Yea. But it says Infantry, not Salamanders Infantry.
Have an untargettable Blob squad of Guardsman sit on an Objective, behind an untargettable Character, behind a LOS blocking wall.
why on earth would a Salamanders specific stratagem do anything for non-Salamanders? Furthermore what self respecting Salamanders player doing in the adding guard to their list?
Because it doesn't specify that only Salamanders are affected? That's what it says RAW, and you can bet that a lot of people will play it that way.
But again, explain how a SPACE MARINE STRAT would effect anything that's not a SPACE MARINE. So we should start using strats from other factions on stuff it doesnt belong to? Everyone that I've spoken with agrees that it wouldn't work on anyone other than Salamanders.
RAW makes sense that it wouldnt. Anyone that thinks otherwise is trying to be an donkey-cave and use it to their advantage. Typical dick move.
IF the start (currently) just say Infantry then it effects ALL Infantry - now it is likely to be FAQed - UNLESSS of course someone at GW likes the idea of a heroric Marine standing there shielding the other Imperials nearby.....sounds quite Salamander like in fact if you know the lore.
I actually love the idea of a Salamander squad shielding their guard allies with their hulking Ceramite-clad frames. Compared to, say, Minotaurs, who'd strap them on as ablative armour or Flesh Tearers who don't actually have allies, only tiny bits of meat to wade through.
And I can't get my hopes up for new Orks *again* to be let down. I miss the days of Armageddon campaigns and Orks as important players in 40k (and WHFB). Their brutal sillyness goes so well with the SM's silly brutalness and the Guard's grim hopelessness.
Binabik15 wrote: I actually love the idea of a Salamander squad shielding their guard allies with their hulking Ceramite-clad frames. Compared to, say, Minotaurs, who'd strap them on as ablative armour or Flesh Tearers who don't actually have allies, only tiny bits of meat to wade through.
Of course if there's IG allies around what probably happens is that IG troopers cover salamander character who covers everybody else so until you clear the cheap chaff from front(preferably out of LOS to make that hard) character and everybody behind him are nearly 100% immune to shooting. Not even snipers able to target the units behind the character.
French long time lurker here. If I were you, I would definitely take seriously what Kikasstout (the french forumer) says.
Long before the release of Codex SM V2 he accurately guessed the Combat Doctrines (at the time, he told us that it was going to be a system where you get a buff to either heavy weapons AP or Rapid Fire / Assault weapons AP or melee AP and that you had to "choose" which buff to use), the number of stratagems and the release date (August). He told us these informations as soon as June if I remember correctly. He also told us at the same time that each First Founding Chapter was going to get its own supplement, relics and stratagems on top of several new units and not just the stuff from Shadowspear.
Many of us didn't really believe him because it kinda sounded like Christmas for SM players, especially after seeing what Codex CSM V2 ended up being. In the end, he was right !
Although he didn't describe perfectly the Combat Doctrines (he described them at first as some kind of boost that you have to choose at the beginning of each battle round and not a progressive system), it is very clear to us now that he has good sources regarding upcoming GW releases.
He also gave us several hints regarding the upcoming Drukhari vs Eldar thing, in Psychic Awakening.
There was a rumor about a potential plastic Russ and Ghazhgkull but I could not find the quote atm...
Thanks for the summary Warhams, I'll add it to the front page.
I've been doing my own research and the rumour of the SW vs Ork box is that it will be Ragnar vs a new plastic Ork character, possibly Ghazzy.
Posters are going wild for Primarch speculation (as they always do on B&C) but none of them have any concrete information, as far as I can tell.
You are welcome. And sorry, I was in a hurry and meant Ragnar Blackmane, not Russ
I dunno has GW EVER put an actual special character in a box? the most the do is put a unique mini that they give a name to but represents a generic, Haldor Icepelt being an excellent example
There was a rumor about a potential plastic Russ and Ghazhgkull but I could not find the quote atm...
Thanks for the summary Warhams, I'll add it to the front page.
I've been doing my own research and the rumour of the SW vs Ork box is that it will be Ragnar vs a new plastic Ork character, possibly Ghazzy.
Posters are going wild for Primarch speculation (as they always do on B&C) but none of them have any concrete information, as far as I can tell.
You are welcome. And sorry, I was in a hurry and meant Ragnar Blackmane, not Russ
I dunno has GW EVER put an actual special character in a box? the most the do is put a unique mini that they give a name to but represents a generic, Haldor Icepelt being an excellent example
Eldrad, Artemis, the Wolf Lord from the old Orks vs Wolves box that remained a SC in the 7th Ed Wolf book.
There was a rumor about a potential plastic Russ and Ghazhgkull but I could not find the quote atm...
Thanks for the summary Warhams, I'll add it to the front page.
I've been doing my own research and the rumour of the SW vs Ork box is that it will be Ragnar vs a new plastic Ork character, possibly Ghazzy.
Posters are going wild for Primarch speculation (as they always do on B&C) but none of them have any concrete information, as far as I can tell.
You are welcome. And sorry, I was in a hurry and meant Ragnar Blackmane, not Russ
I dunno has GW EVER put an actual special character in a box? the most the do is put a unique mini that they give a name to but represents a generic, Haldor Icepelt being an excellent example
Wrath and Rapture had Karanak and a generic harp herald, plus new fiends and flesh hounds in it. That's my speculation for how we might see these eldar- banshees and jain zar vs drazhar and incubi, some troops for both sides to bulk it out to the 100 GBP price point, and Banshee exarch either included or sold separately as a blister, with individual sets for the units out later.
Wow, the difference for Shrike is night and day. I think with a better paintjob that it will look even better. I actually don't mind Ferrios original head, but the helmeted options looks good too.
Wow, the difference for Shrike is night and day. I think with a better paintjob that it will look even better. I actually don't mind Ferrios original head, but the helmeted options looks good too.
Still too busy IMO (far, far too much junk for a 'stealth guy'), but I've yet to see a SM model that can't be improved by putting a helmet on.
He'd be good as Shrike, Collector of Random Trinkets, however
Wow, the difference for Shrike is night and day. I think with a better paintjob that it will look even better. I actually don't mind Ferrios original head, but the helmeted options looks good too.
Still too busy IMO (far, far too much junk for a 'stealth guy'), but I've yet to see a SM model that can't be improved by putting a helmet on.
He'd be good as Shrike, Collector of Random Trinkets, however
collecting random trinkets is kind of a thing ravens do
a bunch of fish swimming together....like mindless followers doing what someone else is doing just cuz.
Breaking the game is still a dick move.
How is it breaking the game though? GW has made abudantly clear that you can affect units from different codexes with your stratagem. They specifically spell it out! It's not "can you or can't you?". GW flat out says you can. As long as keywords match the codex unit and stratagems are is irrelevant by GW's own words! And it's not like this is recent thing created but is almost as old as 8th ed so they have had plenty of time to change that FAQ yet haven't.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: To be fair, everyone moaning about the strat, it's very Fluffy that sallies can take one for the team for all imperium units.
Fluffy =/= balanced or fun though.
It does not seem like a fun stratagem to play against because it basically robs me of a phase of the game.
Either way let's leave Self Sacrifice there for the moment, we don't know how it'll pan out with FAQs, other stratagems etc and people are getting riled up over it.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: To be fair, everyone moaning about the strat, it's very Fluffy that sallies can take one for the team for all imperium units.
Fluffy =/= balanced or fun though.
It does not seem like a fun stratagem to play against because it basically robs me of a phase of the game.
Either way let's leave Self Sacrifice there for the moment, we don't know how it'll pan out with FAQs, other stratagems etc and people are getting riled up over it.
besides only robs you of a phase in a hypothetical situation where you have your entire army blobbed up around a tree with a single unit hidden behind the tree just ahead of your army. I'm sure people'll manage to cheese it but it won't be as easy and effortless as people seem to think it will. and doing ti every round will eat through CPs. and Marines are pretty CP hungry now that the new 'dex is out, they have some GREAT strats.
You don't need to protect entire army though...just key units. It's even better than grot screen as a) it protects multiple units b) chaff protecting sally character that is target of stratagem doesn't have to be close to character. Just closer to enemy that character is.
Enemy
Scout squad(preferably in cover, ideally out of los)
Character
Key units
Until you kill scout(s)(possibly out of los) character and key units are immune to shooting.
Better than grot screen that is good stratagem already
To be fair I don't actually disagree with you, and a helmetless Farseer was made by a trainee sculptor many moons ago (along with a bunch of stuff that sadly never saw the light of day).
My point was more that you posted a pic of something that GW didn't make in a discussion about GW making Seers without helmets. It's dishonest, because it's not something GW made.
Skrike with the helmet on looks amazing. I think the different head angle also helps, since it makes him look like he's about to move, not just standing around sulking.
The iron father head swap is less of an improvement, mainly because there was nothing too much wrong with it to start with. Does look good though.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: To be fair, everyone moaning about the strat, it's very Fluffy that sallies can take one for the team for all imperium units.
Fluffy =/= balanced or fun though.
It does not seem like a fun stratagem to play against because it basically robs me of a phase of the game.
Either way let's leave Self Sacrifice there for the moment, we don't know how it'll pan out with FAQs, other stratagems etc and people are getting riled up over it.
besides only robs you of a phase in a hypothetical situation where you have your entire army blobbed up around a tree with a single unit hidden behind the tree just ahead of your army. I'm sure people'll manage to cheese it but it won't be as easy and effortless as people seem to think it will. and doing ti every round will eat through CPs. and Marines are pretty CP hungry now that the new 'dex is out, they have some GREAT strats.
Nope it’s broke as will be proved when GW fix it in a couple of weeks, probably, maybe, I guess it depends we are talking about GW.
Selfcontrol wrote: French long time lurker here. If I were you, I would definitely take seriously what Kikasstout (the french forumer) says.
Long before the release of Codex SM V2 he accurately guessed the Combat Doctrines (at the time, he told us that it was going to be a system where you get a buff to either heavy weapons AP or Rapid Fire / Assault weapons AP or melee AP and that you had to "choose" which buff to use), the number of stratagems and the release date (August). He told us these informations as soon as June if I remember correctly. He also told us at the same time that each First Founding Chapter was going to get its own supplement, relics and stratagems on top of several new units and not just the stuff from Shadowspear.
Many of us didn't really believe him because it kinda sounded like Christmas for SM players, especially after seeing what Codex CSM V2 ended up being. In the end, he was right !
Although he didn't describe perfectly the Combat Doctrines (he described them at first as some kind of boost that you have to choose at the beginning of each battle round and not a progressive system), it is very clear to us now that he has good sources regarding upcoming GW releases.
He also gave us several hints regarding the upcoming Drukhari vs Eldar thing, in Psychic Awakening.
Selfcontrol wrote: French long time lurker here. If I were you, I would definitely take seriously what Kikasstout (the french forumer) says.
Long before the release of Codex SM V2 he accurately guessed the Combat Doctrines (at the time, he told us that it was going to be a system where you get a buff to either heavy weapons AP or Rapid Fire / Assault weapons AP or melee AP and that you had to "choose" which buff to use), the number of stratagems and the release date (August). He told us these informations as soon as June if I remember correctly. He also told us at the same time that each First Founding Chapter was going to get its own supplement, relics and stratagems on top of several new units and not just the stuff from Shadowspear.
Many of us didn't really believe him because it kinda sounded like Christmas for SM players, especially after seeing what Codex CSM V2 ended up being. In the end, he was right !
Although he didn't describe perfectly the Combat Doctrines (he described them at first as some kind of boost that you have to choose at the beginning of each battle round and not a progressive system), it is very clear to us now that he has good sources regarding upcoming GW releases.
He also gave us several hints regarding the upcoming Drukhari vs Eldar thing, in Psychic Awakening.
Yea this is great news, it's nice to have a reliable rumour monger for a change!
Is there anything I missed given French isn't my native tongue?
Is there anything I missed given French isn't my native tongue?
No, you didn't.
Keep in mind that there might be errors in what he said. From what I red, it's pretty clear to me that he does not have a direct access to new minis / codex / supplements etc but he knows someone that is clearly aware of what's going. You can't simply guess release date, new rules, minis, supplements, etc, 2 months before said release
But yep, according to him, it's going to be an Orks vs SW box and BT will get their own rules during Psychic Awakening and not in the IF supplement.
I agree with my fellow baguette up there. He also gave us the executionner heavy lazor and eleminator las carabin weapon profiles in advance if i remember correctly.
But i don't remember if he said that BT rules will be in the IF supplement and with a special treatment after in a Psychic awakening book or if the BT rules are missing in the IF supplement and added in the P.A. book. We'll know very soon anyway.
Binabik15 wrote: I actually love the idea of a Salamander squad shielding their guard allies with their hulking Ceramite-clad frames. Compared to, say, Minotaurs, who'd strap them on as ablative armour or Flesh Tearers who don't actually have allies, only tiny bits of meat to wade through.
Of course if there's IG allies around what probably happens is that IG troopers cover salamander character who covers everybody else so until you clear the cheap chaff from front(preferably out of LOS to make that hard) character and everybody behind him are nearly 100% immune to shooting. Not even snipers able to target the units behind the character.
Sure, I just meant thematically. The rule seems to be written badly or be stupidly broken if it was intended that way. I like good guys Salamanders protecting the normal humans.
I like the Shrike with helmet, but as I said at his reveal, the sculpt is SO stupidly over the top that I like him/love to make fun of him, anyway. I'm not sure which it is. The IH dude looks better without a helmet, or maybe with a more ornate one? This one is a bit boring.
I also have no issue with the salamander guys protecting non-salamanders. It's literally the thing they're famous for doing.
I'm not that sure who else they should protect though. I guess if my Crimson Fists super doctrine is rubbish then I could get some salamanders to tank for me. Do guard have particularly shooty infantry though? It seems to me you'd often be better off just taking things like centurions.
So what exactly is preventing me from putting a salamanders techmarine gunner or something in the middle of an imperial army and protect everything that is not closest from all shooting?
Jidmah wrote: So what exactly is preventing me from putting a salamanders techmarine gunner or something in the middle of an imperial army and protect everything that is not closest from all shooting?
You play orks?
Also with buyable fortification that will be hillarious.
Mandragola wrote: Nothing is preventing you from doing that. I'm reasonably confident it wasn't the intent of the rule, but I couldn't say for sure.
If you read the fluff bit in the Strat its very much about the Salamanders protecting others be they other Marines, guardsmen, Inqusitors or a small child or cat.....
Jidmah wrote: So what exactly is preventing me from putting a salamanders techmarine gunner or something in the middle of an imperial army and protect everything that is not closest from all shooting?
Jidmah wrote: So what exactly is preventing me from putting a salamanders techmarine gunner or something in the middle of an imperial army and protect everything that is not closest from all shooting?
Forget the headswap, look at the mould lines on Shrike! That's like 2008 levels of mould likes from when they have lines down the middle of space marine shoulder pads!
Deadshot wrote: Forget the headswap, look at the mould lines on Shrike! That's like 2008 levels of mould likes from when they have lines down the middle of space marine shoulder pads!
The sad reality of using the Beakie helmet that's on Shrike's belt rather than, say, the new one from the Raven Guard sprue.
Deadshot wrote: Forget the headswap, look at the mould lines on Shrike! That's like 2008 levels of mould likes from when they have lines down the middle of space marine shoulder pads!
The sad reality of using the Beakie helmet that's on Shrike's belt rather than, say, the new one from the Raven Guard sprue.
The problem is that whilst the belt helmet is presumably awkward to remove cleanly and repair, it has a unique decoration on the forehead.
Deadshot wrote: Forget the headswap, look at the mould lines on Shrike! That's like 2008 levels of mould likes from when they have lines down the middle of space marine shoulder pads!
The sad reality of using the Beakie helmet that's on Shrike's belt rather than, say, the new one from the Raven Guard sprue.
The problem is that whilst the belt helmet is presumably awkward to remove cleanly and repair, it has a unique decoration on the forehead.
The helmet is one problem and the moldlines on it are a consequence of being belt mounted, but even still, all the round parts of the model are ruined by lines. Also look at the legs. Smooth rounded shins knees and thigh armour destroyed by lines. Those are pretty extreme but they shojld never have been there to begin with, they should have been on the side like most modern kits.
Deadshot wrote: Also look at the legs. Smooth rounded shins knees and thigh armour destroyed by lines. Those are pretty extreme but they shojld never have been there to begin with, they should have been on the side like most modern kits.
Honestly, I'm starting to prefer it when the mold-lines are in the center like that. Given the easiest method to remove them is to scrap them with the back end of a hobby knife (or buying that tool from GW as they want you to do), it's much easier to do that if the line is in the center of a smooth area, rather than crammed in a recessed edge.
And it makes the lines MUCH more obvious and thus needed to be addressed. There are tons of players out there that can barely see those lines when they are on the edges, and thus they leave them on. Nothing ruins a decent paint job that a mold-line sticking out. You and I may be able to spot the line to remove them, but I know of plenty of players that need them to be more obvious so they have to remove them.
And I didn’t even notice the lines until you guys mentioned them… wow that is somewhat frustrating to see on a new model like that.
As for the Salamander strat, you can build some very nasty, and well protected, infantry gunline armies for 2000 points.
This strat is really going to hurt opposition gunline armies, even if they have ignore LoS weaponry to clear the mid-field screening units. T’au and Guard for example are going to really struggle if there is a unit of Raven Guard Incursors or Infiltrators hidden in a magic box/behind a terrain piece over 12” away from their main gunline. It also counters the new Iron Hands unkillable ball as well, as you’ll be able to shoot them for the first couple of turns, whereas they won’t be able to retaliate.
Yeah, it seems like it it way better to have a mold line on a smooth surface, rather than going across any kind of detail. But for many of the easy to build type models, they manage to hide the lines pretty well on edges or where pieces layer over each other. The Blackstone Fortress miniatures did a pretty good job with that.
But those ones on Shrike mostly look very easy to remove, except the ones on his gun's grip.
For Shrike specifically the mold lines need to be in the front and back because of the thrusters. All the undercuts on them and above the heel can only work that way as long as the thrusters are not separate bits. And since there's half a bunker on the sprue there is no room for that.
I don't think the mold lines are exceptional for modern GW kits either. They only seem to stand out because of the lighting. They're a very light grey compared to the rest of the model, but on close inspection they don't seem unduly broad or tall. I found them very noticeable the first time I looked at the picture, but going back I think it's just a trick of light.
Geifer wrote: For Shrike specifically the mold lines need to be in the front and back because of the thrusters. All the undercuts on them and above the heel can only work that way as long as the thrusters are not separate bits. And since there's half a bunker on the sprue there is no room for that.
I don't think the mold lines are exceptional for modern GW kits either. They only seem to stand out because of the lighting. They're a very light grey compared to the rest of the model, but on close inspection they don't seem unduly broad or tall. I found them very noticeable the first time I looked at the picture, but going back I think it's just a trick of light.
Yeah, they weren't bad at all. It literally just took a brief once-over with the moldline remover.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Yeah, it seems like it it way better to have a mold line on a smooth surface, rather than going across any kind of detail. But for many of the easy to build type models, they manage to hide the lines pretty well on edges or where pieces layer over each other.
And I feel that is very intentional on GW's part. The Easy-Build kits are supposed to be ...easy to build and thus intended for people who have probably never removed mold-lines in their life and may never start.
But Character models like Shrike? You WANT those lines to be obvious because you assume the owner is going to spend time cleaning it up and making it look nice.
So while at first glance, many might say "Oh those lines are awful, what a shame", but viewed from the perspective above, I'd actually say GW should be commended for making those line easy to see and thus easy to remove
I am finding that in general GW's placement of mold lines and sprue gates are improved with their newer models. However, there is the occasional, "I am not sure why the placed it there" moments. I don't know the ins and outs of undercutting or other issues that might have caused those moments, but they do happen enough to have me wonder if they could have been avoided or not.
At least they're not putting the attachment points on prominent, concave surfaces anymore like on the necron warriors heads - those are just evil.
Nowadays sometimes I can't even find the mold lines after I've clipped the pieces off the sprues. The ork planes in aeronautica imperialis are amazing for example - hardly a single mold line to remove.
Nowadays sometimes I can't even find the mold lines after I've clipped the pieces off the sprues. The ork planes in aeronautica imperialis are amazing for example - hardly a single mold line to remove.
same here, they are some of my favorite recent models.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: I am finding that in general GW's placement of mold lines and sprue gates are improved with their newer models. However, there is the occasional, "I am not sure why the placed it there" moments. I don't know the ins and outs of undercutting or other issues that might have caused those moments, but they do happen enough to have me wonder if they could have been avoided or not.
Nothing will ever beat some of the Privateer Press troll and circle models in 'plastic.' Mold lines over fur. Seriously And the early Convergence plastic warjacks with mold lines in recessed areas of gearing, which... the physical setup of the sprues to make that happen doesn't even make sense to me.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: I am finding that in general GW's placement of mold lines and sprue gates are improved with their newer models. However, there is the occasional, "I am not sure why the placed it there" moments. I don't know the ins and outs of undercutting or other issues that might have caused those moments, but they do happen enough to have me wonder if they could have been avoided or not.
Nothing will ever beat some of the Privateer Press troll and circle models in 'plastic.' Mold lines over fur. Seriously And the early Convergence plastic warjacks with mold lines in recessed areas of gearing, which... the physical setup of the sprues to make that happen doesn't even make sense to me.
as someone who just started with warmahordes and interesting enough trolls AND convergence I really know what your talking about
Man I want to be excited for this but Primaris black Templar just do not do it for me and it's pretty clear these guys will be Primaris. They just don't have that gothic vibe the old upgrade box had. Maybe I'll be proven wrong and they'll do something neat, but I'm not holding my breath.
Here's hoping the orks are good. They need some new minis that aren't yet another buggy.
Of course at this rate they're not going to be together, so I'm less likely to buy the boxes, but since I know a few Space wolf players maybe I'll be able to get some cheap orks.
It's seems unlikely Wolves v Orks. They just had a Wolves set after all.
I for one look forward to primaris models, just because old marines looked so squaty to me and primaris look like true scale. Primaris lore is dumb to be sure though.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: I am finding that in general GW's placement of mold lines and sprue gates are improved with their newer models. However, there is the occasional, "I am not sure why the placed it there" moments. I don't know the ins and outs of undercutting or other issues that might have caused those moments, but they do happen enough to have me wonder if they could have been avoided or not.
Nothing will ever beat some of the Privateer Press troll and circle models in 'plastic.' Mold lines over fur. Seriously And the early Convergence plastic warjacks with mold lines in recessed areas of gearing, which... the physical setup of the sprues to make that happen doesn't even make sense to me.
Three mold lines converging on the center of a model’s face...
Dranu wrote: It's seems unlikely Wolves v Orks. They just had a Wolves set after all.
I for one look forward to primaris models, just because old marines looked so squaty to me and primaris look like true scale. Primaris lore is dumb to be sure though.
Latest rumours indicate Wolves v Orks. The French forum goer that suggested this has a very good track record so far.
Dranu wrote: It's seems unlikely Wolves v Orks. They just had a Wolves set after all.
I for one look forward to primaris models, just because old marines looked so squaty to me and primaris look like true scale. Primaris lore is dumb to be sure though.
Latest rumours indicate Wolves v Orks. The French forum goer that suggested this has a very good track record so far.
And while I'm sure many have had enough of Marines getting models, fact is that with these last few supplements, all First Founding Chapters have at least one Primaris Special Character (or even two in case of the Ultras), while the "special" chapters (DA, BA, SW) only have "generic" lieutenant models as chapter-dedicated characters. I'd expect a SW vs. Orks box to include a new SW Primaris Special Character - probably Ragnar, as his model is ancient.
Dranu wrote: It's seems unlikely Wolves v Orks. They just had a Wolves set after all.
I for one look forward to primaris models, just because old marines looked so squaty to me and primaris look like true scale. Primaris lore is dumb to be sure though.
Latest rumours indicate Wolves v Orks. The French forum goer that suggested this has a very good track record so far.
I don't doubt it, just saying the idea in itself seems unlikely as they just released two SW things very recently.
Dranu wrote: It's seems unlikely Wolves v Orks. They just had a Wolves set after all.
I for one look forward to primaris models, just because old marines looked so squaty to me and primaris look like true scale. Primaris lore is dumb to be sure though.
Latest rumours indicate Wolves v Orks. The French forum goer that suggested this has a very good track record so far.
I don't doubt it, just saying the idea in itself seems unlikely as they just released two SW things very recently.
Kill Team isn't really considered a "Space Wolf" product. The Kill Team included was given a Space Wolf name, but they're intended to be used by any Marine players.
Prior to that, the most recent Space Wolf release was Tooth and Claw.
The Primaris Space Wolf set is just a repack of Tooth and Claw's contents(Aggressors x3, Intercessors x5, Redemptor, Battle Leader) with the Redemptor dropped in favor of another 5 Intercessors.
No Imperial Fists rules leaks? The Salamanders leaked stratagem was awesome (and controversial in its OP potential).
Speaking of which, I may be a fool for it but I kind of hope IF get a stratagem for deepstriking Gravis infantry. Among the First Founding Chapters, they always had a thing for terminator assaults, and they are fleet-based. It could give a new tool for Primaris only players, make Agressors more flexible and Gravis characters more viable.
Plus, deepstriking Tor Garadon would be a force to be reckoned.
Make it 2 points. I don't mind. But please make them the new Terminators they should have always been
It is pretty annoying that the Imperial Fists leaks haven't come. The individual that leaked the Salamanders stuff has shown a picture of both books. All we have is an incomplete picture of the points values and Garadon. Where are the rest?!
gorgon wrote: I remember when codices used to be four months apart.
It would have been good to get this massive blockage of Marine dexes, models etc out of the way but we seem stuck with them for some months until the new marine stuff with the Pyschic campaign - it also means a much longer wait for the inevitable FAQs to fix the issues.
I am looking forward to the Salamanders dex but sadly the character models still remain too much money for me to bother.
Nicorex wrote: Did we get a timeframe for the release of the new Impulsor. I can't seem to find it if we did.
It will drop almost certainly drop alongside the last two supplements in October.
I wouldn't call that 'certain'.
Each supplement has come with 1 kit and a few character models. We're still waiting on Suppressors, Infiltrators, and the Impulsor. It'd be great if we got all three of those with Salamanders and Imperial Fists, but I have this sneaking suspicion that we're going to be waiting another month for the rest of that release.
drbored wrote: Each supplement has come with 1 kit and a few character models. We're still waiting on Suppressors, Infiltrators, and the Impulsor. It'd be great if we got all three of those with Salamanders and Imperial Fists, but I have this sneaking suspicion that we're going to be waiting another month for the rest of that release.
Suppressors don't have a kit. They're Shadowspear only and look to be staying that way.
I'd expect the remaining Marine kits that are getting a release (two characters, Infiltrators and Impulsor) to hit with the final two books.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I wonder if the Iron Hands and Raven Guard dice will drop then too? We know SLamanders are getting some, no idea why there weren't any for this wave.
Ow that you mention it there weren’t, were there? I’d not noticed we missed those. I am awaiting the Salamanders dice so I do hope those come out looking good and on time.
Would really be keen to see a black Templar release, got a apocalypse marine battalion box set to build and paint and would quite like to do some templars.
drbored wrote: Each supplement has come with 1 kit and a few character models. We're still waiting on Suppressors, Infiltrators, and the Impulsor. It'd be great if we got all three of those with Salamanders and Imperial Fists, but I have this sneaking suspicion that we're going to be waiting another month for the rest of that release.
Suppressors don't have a kit. They're Shadowspear only and look to be staying that way.
They'll probably get release once the box goes out of print, like the buggies from speed freeks.
drbored wrote: Each supplement has come with 1 kit and a few character models. We're still waiting on Suppressors, Infiltrators, and the Impulsor. It'd be great if we got all three of those with Salamanders and Imperial Fists, but I have this sneaking suspicion that we're going to be waiting another month for the rest of that release.
Suppressors don't have a kit. They're Shadowspear only and look to be staying that way.
They'll probably get release once the box goes out of print, like the buggies from speed freeks.
Isn't the box already out of print? Hence why the Lieutenant, Librarian and Captain are all released as clampacks?
Jidmah wrote: They'll probably get release once the box goes out of print, like the buggies from speed freeks.
Except that the buggies from Speed Freaks, as much as all the Ork buggies were monopose, were their own kits. Suppressors are part of a larger sprue that has other things on it.
Isn't the box already out of print? Hence why the Lieutenant, Librarian and Captain are all released as clampacks?
Yep. It is really bizarre situation. It was available for a very short time (luckily I got one.) And now the Suppressors are completely unavailable. It seems really weird to design all those sprues and then just not continue selling the box.
Isn't the box already out of print? Hence why the Lieutenant, Librarian and Captain are all released as clampacks?
Yep. It is really bizarre situation. It was available for a very short time (luckily I got one.) And now the Suppressors are completely unavailable. It seems really weird to design all those sprues and then just not continue selling the box.
It's even more bizarre when you realize that the Phobos Lieutenant that was released isn't the same as the one from Shadowspear.
Shadowspear's Lieutenant is on what I dubbed the 'Command Sprue'. It had the Sergeants for all the squads, the Phobos Lieutenant, and the mini-Apothecary, plus a few Infiltrator poses.
tneva82 wrote: Suppressors? They will come as own kit. Marine players just have no patience. Non marines are often waiting half a year for theirs.
I'll agree with you there, as a Marine and also non-marine player. But particularly, I can think of just 1 single unit locked into a box set and that would be the Gravis Captain from Dark Imperium. Sure, unique models such as Haldor Icepelt or the Dark Vengeance sculpts or AoBR for example, but actual UNITS in the codex, only the Gravis Captain as a way to incentivise sales of the starter kit.
tneva82 wrote: Suppressors? They will come as own kit. Marine players just have no patience. Non marines are often waiting half a year for theirs.
I'll agree with you there, as a Marine and also non-marine player. But particularly, I can think of just 1 single unit locked into a box set and that would be the Gravis Captain from Dark Imperium. Sure, unique models such as Haldor Icepelt or the Dark Vengeance sculpts or AoBR for example, but actual UNITS in the codex, only the Gravis Captain as a way to incentivise sales of the starter kit.
Primaris Ancient and bolt carbine Lt?
Then there are cultists from DV with several options that were never released at all, ditto for all 3 DA characters in DV...
tneva82 wrote: Suppressors? They will come as own kit. Marine players just have no patience. Non marines are often waiting half a year for theirs.
Its... been half a year. Shadowspear came out in march. So far suppressors aren't even on the calendar. At least there is some idea the Infiltrators are actually happening.
This isn't a 'marine player' thing. Sometimes units just fall through a hole in GW's release schedule and never happen. Cultists have functionally been replaced by the <of the Abyss> models from Blackstone, most of the ork fast attack just never got updated in favor of the stupid six.
regarding the gravis captain, once we get a new starter box, I expect the contents of Know no fear to be packaged seperately as start collecting primaris marines and start collecting death guard.
Technically both they and plastic warboss are in Vedros series. But yeah, for most of the ork players the ork refresh from 5th edition might not even exist at all...
Death Watch players were told that we would get access to the new marine units once they figured out how to put DW shoulder pads on the phobos guys (or at least that was/is the rampant speculation as to why DW is the only marine chapter outside of GK that doesn't get access to the new guys).
I really need them to at least address if DW is ever going to get access to the new guys or if we are just getting squatted for 8th along side GK...
Technically both they and plastic warboss are in Vedros series. But yeah, for most of the ork players the ork refresh from 5th edition might not even exist at all...
Technically both they and plastic warboss are in Vedros series. But yeah, for most of the ork players the ork refresh from 5th edition might not even exist at all...
tneva82 wrote: Suppressors? They will come as own kit. Marine players just have no patience. Non marines are often waiting half a year for theirs.
I'll agree with you there, as a Marine and also non-marine player. But particularly, I can think of just 1 single unit locked into a box set and that would be the Gravis Captain from Dark Imperium. Sure, unique models such as Haldor Icepelt or the Dark Vengeance sculpts or AoBR for example, but actual UNITS in the codex, only the Gravis Captain as a way to incentivise sales of the starter kit.
Primaris Ancient and bolt carbine Lt?
Then there are cultists from DV with several options that were never released at all, ditto for all 3 DA characters in DV...
Oguhmek wrote:Deffkoptas... still waiting.
Fair call on the Primaris Ancient forgot him, just him and the Gravis Cap. The lieutenant doesn't come under what I'm describing as he is just a Primaris Lieutenant - I shouldn't have to list the number of Primaris Lt. models out there. You can still legally field a Primaris Lieutenant using an existing model without any alterations whatsoever. Ancient and Captain however, only available through DI or conversions.
Cultists were made available. Options, no. Unit available without alteration? Yes.
Same with the DV characters. They are just a Captain, Librarian and Chaplain. Special models, yes but functionally no different than any other chaplain, captain or librarian model available. Same with the Battle for Macragge Tactical Squad, Genestealers and Termagaunts, the AoBR Captain, Dreadnought, Tacts, Termies, Boyz, Nobs, Boss and Deffkoptas.
On the Deffkoptas, they were available as metal models. Again, not ideal but still available without using the starterbox or conversion work.
Deadshot wrote: Cultists were made available. Options, no. Unit available without alteration? Yes.
Some of them were. They're missing unit leaders and weapon upgrades though. Plus, if you want cultists you have to get the same 5 poses, over and over.
Deadshot wrote: On the Deffkoptas, they were available as metal models. Again, not ideal but still available without using the starterbox or conversion work.
BrianDavion wrote: regarding the gravis captain, once we get a new starter box, I expect the contents of Know no fear to be packaged seperately as start collecting primaris marines and start collecting death guard.
Really? I wouldn't expect that- Those are mono-pause models in colored plastic, with no weapon options. Not the sort of thing that usually shows up in start collecting boxes.
BrianDavion wrote: regarding the gravis captain, once we get a new starter box, I expect the contents of Know no fear to be packaged seperately as start collecting primaris marines and start collecting death guard.
Really? I wouldn't expect that- Those are mono-pause models in colored plastic, with no weapon options. Not the sort of thing that usually shows up in start collecting boxes.
They did split the AoS starter into two Start Collecting sets
Deadshot wrote: Cultists were made available. Options, no. Unit available without alteration? Yes.
Some of them were. They're missing unit leaders and weapon upgrades though. Plus, if you want cultists you have to get the same 5 poses, over and over.
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Deadshot wrote: On the Deffkoptas, they were available as metal models. Again, not ideal but still available without using the starterbox or conversion work.
Not with all of their 2 weapon options.
Voss wrote:
BrianDavion wrote: regarding the gravis captain, once we get a new starter box, I expect the contents of Know no fear to be packaged seperately as start collecting primaris marines and start collecting death guard.
Really? I wouldn't expect that- Those are mono-pause models in colored plastic, with no weapon options. Not the sort of thing that usually shows up in start collecting boxes.
For the record, I was never discussiny poses, loadouts, or anything else other than the ability to field a unit using a model xreated for the purpose of that unit and no conversion, counts as or anything else. Deffkoptas, Cultiste, Dreadnoughts, Lieutenants, are all able to be fielded without even touching the starter boxes. Gravis Captain and Primaris Ancient are not.
Deadshot wrote: For the record, I was never discussiny poses, loadouts, or anything else other than the ability to field a unit using a model xreated for the purpose of that unit and no conversion, counts as or anything else. Deffkoptas, Cultiste, Dreadnoughts, Lieutenants, are all able to be fielded without even touching the starter boxes. Gravis Captain and Primaris Ancient are not.
Yes but you're wrong. In this WYSIWYG world we now live in, there is no way for me to purchase Deffkoptas with Kopta Rokkits from GW. It's as simple as that. To throw your own point back at you - there are separate models for the Captain, he just isn't in his Gravis armour loadout.
For the record, I was never discussiny poses, loadouts, or anything else other than the ability to field a unit using a model xreated for the purpose of that unit and no conversion, counts as or anything else. Deffkoptas, Cultiste, Dreadnoughts, Lieutenants, are all able to be fielded without even touching the starter boxes. Gravis Captain and Primaris Ancient are not.
Don't care what you want in the 'record.' Fielding a unit in the appropriate current codex (not even the index) by buying a unit with its full range of options from GW should be the bottom rung standard. That they're lacking sergeants, weapons, etc means they can't be fielded with no conversions, counts as or anything else.
More than a few things haven't met that basic standard for years- moving on from things that were in starter boxes, we can include eldar aspect warriors, since almost all exarchs lack their alternate loadouts, for some they never existed at all, despite nearly three decades rolling by.
For the record, I was never discussiny poses, loadouts, or anything else other than the ability to field a unit using a model xreated for the purpose of that unit and no conversion, counts as or anything else. Deffkoptas, Cultiste, Dreadnoughts, Lieutenants, are all able to be fielded without even touching the starter boxes. Gravis Captain and Primaris Ancient are not.
Well, if we are going to be picky, the metal deffkopta was released as a special character for the Gorkamorka game, and the plastic ones in AoBR were the first ”proper” wh40k models. So I’m still waiting.
Deadshot wrote: For the record, I was never discussiny poses, loadouts, or anything else other than the ability to field a unit using a model xreated for the purpose of that unit and no conversion, counts as or anything else. Deffkoptas, Cultiste, Dreadnoughts, Lieutenants, are all able to be fielded without even touching the starter boxes. Gravis Captain and Primaris Ancient are not.
Yes but you're wrong. In this WYSIWYG world we now live in, there is no way for me to purchase Deffkoptas with Kopta Rokkits from GW. It's as simple as that. To throw your own point back at you - there are separate models for the Captain, he just isn't in his Gravis armour loadout.
Gravis Captain is a seperate unit entry to Captain. You can buy a unit called "Deffkoptas" (maybe, are they still on sale?), you can't buy a unit called Gravis Captain.
For the record, I was never discussiny poses, loadouts, or anything else other than the ability to field a unit using a model xreated for the purpose of that unit and no conversion, counts as or anything else. Deffkoptas, Cultiste, Dreadnoughts, Lieutenants, are all able to be fielded without even touching the starter boxes. Gravis Captain and Primaris Ancient are not.
Don't care what you want in the 'record.' Fielding a unit in the appropriate current codex (not even the index) by buying a unit with its full range of options from GW should be the bottom rung standard. That they're lacking sergeants, weapons, etc means they can't be fielded with no conversions, counts as or anything else.
More than a few things haven't met that basic standard for years- moving on from things that were in starter boxes, we can include eldar aspect warriors, since almost all exarchs lack their alternate loadouts, for some they never existed at all, despite nearly three decades rolling by.
I wasn't discussing loadouts - I was discussing unit entries. You are right in that they are below standard but again, you're talking about something different than me - which us that units can't be played at all without conversion. You can play Aspect Warriors without conversion. Closer to what I'm discussing is the Tervigon, Tyrannofex, Mycetic Spores, Doom of Malantai,back un 5th Ed Tyranids - playable units, no models except those didnt even come in a starter box.
For the record, I was never discussiny poses, loadouts, or anything else other than the ability to field a unit using a model xreated for the purpose of that unit and no conversion, counts as or anything else. Deffkoptas, Cultiste, Dreadnoughts, Lieutenants, are all able to be fielded without even touching the starter boxes. Gravis Captain and Primaris Ancient are not.
Well, if we are going to be picky, the metal deffkopta was released as a special character for the Gorkamorka game, and the plastic ones in AoBR were the first ”proper” wh40k models. So I’m still waiting.
Not being picky, just restating my points of discussion - unit entries unavailable outside boxsets. Idk if the metal models are still sold, but currently I know Gravis Captain, Primaris Ancient, Suppressors, fall into that category.
Doctrine is +1D with heavy weapons when devastator doctrine is active.
1 CP: each member of an intercessor squad can launch a grenade.
Psychic table doesn't seems very interesting with a lot of powers against buildings. A lot of stratagems to reinforce your antitank capabilities but nothing really concrete.
+1D heavy weapons is pretty ridiculously powerful when thinking about certain Heavy type weapons and the IF chapter tactic.
GW: "We will definitely be increasing the power of space marines in this codex - marines don't feel like marines anymore!"
Also GW: An IF Twin Assault Cannon Razorback puts out a dozen S6 Ap-2 D2 Ignores Cover shots.
Remember when people used to complain about Dissie ravagers lolololol
EDIT: Might as well rename this release "how dumb can we make Leviathans" at this point.
Take a Siegebreaker detachment of IF. Take a captain with Indomitable warlord trait and eye of hypnoth. Spend 1CP, all your leviathan dreads now do this:
20 S7 Ap-3 D3 shots rerolling 1s to hit and to wound ignoring cover and dealing mortal wounds to vehicles on a 6.
Assault Cannons? I’m already deathly afraid of my buddies Heavy Bolter Centurians who get the extra hits on 6’s. And now he’ll need half the hits to drop my Primaris.
So we all know how strong the white scar doctrine is with it's +1 melee damage bit and how it's only limited by being active turn 3. Ok so lets go ahead and give that to Imperial Fists, make it effect heavy weapons and start on turn 1. The +1 damage is insanely powerful on high rate of fire heavies or heck even the eliminators are going to drop characters like a bad habit. Heavy bolters, onslaught cannons, razorbacks etc etc. It is a bit countered by super heavy horde builds which is nice and the iron hand death bubble will be able to mitigate it so some level, but in a straight shoot out jeez it;s going to be rough.
Also remember they can t1 focus down your multi wound stuff then transition to tactical then back to dev if they need to for whatever reason.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: So we all know how strong the white scar doctrine is with it's +1 melee damage bit and how it's only limited by being active turn 3. Ok so lets go ahead and give that to Imperial Fists, make it effect heavy weapons and start on turn 1. The +1 damage is insanely powerful on high rate of fire heavies or heck even the eliminators are going to drop characters like a bad habit. Heavy bolters, onslaught cannons, razorbacks etc etc. It is a bit countered by super heavy horde builds which is nice and the iron hand death bubble will be able to mitigate it so some level, but in a straight shoot out jeez it;s going to be rough.
Also remember they can t1 focus down your multi wound stuff then transition to tactical then back to dev if they need to for whatever reason.
Vehicles and Buildings only. It is trash compared to the IH doctrine.
Sterling191 wrote: Valrak is stating it's +1D against vehicles and buildings for heavy weapons while in Devastator (which changes the equation considerably).
Huh, that does change things up a bit.
Good thing most of the best necron units aren't vehicles I guess.
Sterling191 wrote: Valrak is stating it's +1D against vehicles and buildings for heavy weapons while in Devastator (which changes the equation considerably).
Huh, that does change things up a bit.
Good thing most of the best necron units aren't vehicles I guess.
Sterling191 wrote: Valrak is stating it's +1D against vehicles and buildings for heavy weapons while in Devastator (which changes the equation considerably).
Huh, that does change things up a bit.
Good thing most of the best necron units aren't vehicles I guess.
It actually makes IF WORSE against Necron vehicles in the Devastator Doctrine. Wow....
Ahh yeah if it's only against vehicles and buildings it's still good, but not over powered. Turn 1 focus down enemy vehicles then move on to whatever. IMO it should have been against monsters and vehicles, but hey is what it is. Yeah I'd say Iron Hands are still on top in that regard.
Yeah if this is accurate and always on (I think I've heard that it might only be vs buildings and vehicles) then it has some odd effects. Like my repulsor executioners doing more damage with their gatling guns than with their heavy lasers. And flyers being really quite good.
I don't think razorbacks will be competitive though. They've still got the issue of getting locked in combat. They are still not playing the same game at all as a Crimson Hunter Exarch and have no way to compete.
The strat to have an intercessor squad throw grenades is quite interesting. One factor is that it might make sense to have stalker rifles. Your base infantry have a D3 gun with -3 ap and then for dakka you can throw a ton of frag grenades.
On the other hand, the strat is basically worthless if using ABRs. Those d6 grenade attacks are basically identical to the 3 shots the ABR would give you.
Sterling191 wrote: Valrak is stating it's +1D against vehicles and buildings for heavy weapons while in Devastator (which changes the equation considerably).
Huh, that does change things up a bit.
Good thing most of the best necron units aren't vehicles I guess.
It actually makes IF WORSE against Necron vehicles in the Devastator Doctrine. Wow....
Eh, not really.
QS is actually not that reliable against anything that deals less than 3 damage. If you want to frustrate a necron player, take a bunch of D2 weapons and dump it all into his QS vehicles. You'll be surprised how quickly they'll go down.
Its almost as if T6 4+ save are crap defenses, and necrons should really have heavy vehicles that won't fall apart, both figuratively and literally.
Sterling191 wrote: Valrak is stating it's +1D against vehicles and buildings for heavy weapons while in Devastator (which changes the equation considerably).
Huh, that does change things up a bit.
Good thing most of the best necron units aren't vehicles I guess.
It actually makes IF WORSE against Necron vehicles in the Devastator Doctrine. Wow....
Depends on weapon. Razorback Assault cannon goes from 2.6666 wounds to 4.4444 wounds vs doomsday ark. Similarly autocannon improves.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Ahh yeah if it's only against vehicles and buildings it's still good, but not over powered. Turn 1 focus down enemy vehicles then move on to whatever. IMO it should have been against monsters and vehicles, but hey is what it is. Yeah I'd say Iron Hands are still on top in that regard.
I gotta disagree, because in a IGOUGO format, Imperial Fists going first kills the person that brought the "wrong" army.
This is why the Supplements were a bad idea and I told everyone this from the beginning.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Ahh yeah if it's only against vehicles and buildings it's still good, but not over powered. Turn 1 focus down enemy vehicles then move on to whatever. IMO it should have been against monsters and vehicles, but hey is what it is. Yeah I'd say Iron Hands are still on top in that regard.
I gotta disagree, because in a IGOUGO format, Imperial Fists going first kills the person that brought the "wrong" army.
This is why the Supplements were a bad idea and I told everyone this from the beginning.
Absence of codex supplements doesn't fix bad rules/design. But keep beating that dead horse.
It's a stupid rule. It makes multishot heavy weapons the best tool for every job. It discourages the IF from taking actual tank and bunker busting weapons like lascannons and missile launchers. It also makes pretty much all non-IH vehicle-heavy armies unusable against the IF.
Damn, these supplements are such a disaster. The codex itself is very nice, good buffs and balancing but the supplements are full of utterly bonkers stuff.
I mean, no way GW puts out a chapter tactic so broken as +1 damage on heavy weapons vs vehicles. I'll believe it when I see it.
Unless their whole idea of balance is rock-paper-scissors and then they are dumber (as a whole and individually) than any one on this board has ever insinuated (and that's a pretty low bar). CF eat IH so IH aren't a problem? I have no idea...
I guess if they yanarri nerf the levi dread and not let the chapter tactic apply to weapons carried by vehicles? I just don't see how giving an entire army a 20-100% boost on damage from the most efficient weapons does anything but destroy the balance for the 8 other armies paying the same points for those weapons doing 80-50% of the damage. Storm cannon, heavy bolter, Gatling and assault cannon all the things I guess...
Crimson wrote: It's a stupid rule. It makes multishot heavy weapons the best tool for every job. It discourages the IF from taking actual tank and bunker busting weapons like lascannons and missile launchers. It also makes pretty much all non-IH vehicle-heavy armies unusable against the IF.
In fairness thats been a problem all edition but yeah I'd have prefered to see something differant. maybe gain cover while in devestator doctrine. this'd work reasonably nicely with Imperial Fists being a siege based chapter. Dig in and bombard with heavy weapons then sweep in and crush the enemy with later stuff once you've gunlined em down
bananathug wrote: I mean, no way GW puts out a chapter tactic so broken as +1 damage on heavy weapons vs vehicles. I'll believe it when I see it.
Unless their whole idea of balance is rock-paper-scissors and then they are dumber (as a whole and individually) than any one on this board has ever insinuated (and that's a pretty low bar). CF eat IH so IH aren't a problem? I have no idea...
I guess if they yanarri nerf the levi dread and not let the chapter tactic apply to weapons carried by vehicles? I just don't see how giving an entire army a 20-100% boost on damage from the most efficient weapons does anything but destroy the balance for the 8 other armies paying the same points for those weapons doing 80-50% of the damage. Storm cannon, heavy bolter, Gatling and assault cannon all the things I guess...
Naah this is quite normal for gw.
Oh and btw this superdoctrine is not particularly good vs iron hands. It encourages high rate of weapons like assault cannon that becomes nasty dam2 weapon. Very nasty vs vehicles. However iroe hands turn that back to dam1 weapon
Crimson wrote: It's a stupid rule. It makes multishot heavy weapons the best tool for every job. It discourages the IF from taking actual tank and bunker busting weapons like lascannons and missile launchers. It also makes pretty much all non-IH vehicle-heavy armies unusable against the IF.
Damn, these supplements are such a disaster. The codex itself is very nice, good buffs and balancing but the supplements are full of utterly bonkers stuff.
Something something SlayerFan says consolidation with just a few extra bits something something
TBH playing agaisnt Nu-marines they don't fell all that powerfull.
At least now they present some kind of battle to my Taus and I even lose some games! Thats refreshing.
The IH Leviathan Dread is receiving too much internet hype. And I don't dispute maybe is something ridiculous but if it is, it will spawn in the top competitive tournaments and get addresed.
But all this "Marines go from being one of the worst factions to DESTROY THE EDITION because +1 extra Ap with the same point costs" is just non-sense Internet hiperbole.
Galas wrote: TBH playing agaisnt Nu-marines they don't fell all that powerfull.
At least now they present some kind of battle to my Taus and I even lose some games! Thats refreshing.
The IH Leviathan Dread is receiving too much internet hype. And I don't dispute maybe is something ridiculous but if it is, it will spawn in the top competitive tournaments and get addresed.
But all this "Marines go from being one of the worst factions to DESTROY THE EDITION because +1 extra Ap with the same point costs" is just non-sense Internet hiperbole.
Have you ever stopped to consider that perhaps Tau are incredibly powerful also?
As well as being perfect counters to Marines both nu and old?
Galas wrote: TBH playing agaisnt Nu-marines they don't fell all that powerfull.
At least now they present some kind of battle to my Taus and I even lose some games! Thats refreshing.
The IH Leviathan Dread is receiving too much internet hype. And I don't dispute maybe is something ridiculous but if it is, it will spawn in the top competitive tournaments and get addresed.
But all this "Marines go from being one of the worst factions to DESTROY THE EDITION because +1 extra Ap with the same point costs" is just non-sense Internet hiperbole.
Have you ever stopped to consider that perhaps Tau are incredibly powerful also?
As well as being perfect counters to Marines both nu and old?
Probably but surely not with the list I use, lol.
Even with my crappy lists I was winning agaisnt old marine lists that were geared toward competitive. And even more after all the CA point cost drops. I don't spam drones nor Riptides, for example.
I can understand that the nu-marines appear to be OMG SO OP to very weak factions like necrons, all the other marines factions, orks, etc... but for the rest of the factions of the game? Now at least they can compete. Genestealer Cults, Imperial Guard, Eldars, Tau, etc...
White Scars I don't even consider a marine supplement because the power upgrade they gain from it is so irrelevant that... who cares.
Ultramarines and Ravenguard are two big Ok's.
And the only that makes any kind of impactull difference is Iron Hands, but even that is greatly overrated. Yay marine vehicles don't degrade now! WoW so powerfull when they have one of the worst vehicle selection of the game. Lol dreadnoughts OP! Is a single one for FW than even then isn't all that much more threating. An Imperial Knight supported by proper Imperial Guard artillery and infantry is much much more powerfull.
All the end of the day they are still marines that cost like marines and die like marines. The only difference now is that they can actually dish some damage without Guilliman.
I mean, do we have tournament data or something to back up all this internet talk about how ultra OP are new marines, that are killing 8th edition?
It really doesn't sound like you've faced Iron Hands. It's not the slower degrading it's the never dying while putting out withering accurate firepower while moving.
What are you using to silence their vehicles before they mulch your troops?
A good ol' bunch of firewarriors (60-80) + Missilesides with drones, some commanders (Not the Fusion suicide ones) + Kauyon and one or two riptides if one is fancy. Skyrays with their burst are actually better than many people give them credit for. Do a proper suit list with 3 Riptides and a spam of drones with Saviour Protocols and you can laugh at anything marines throw at you, but I don't play like that, is ultra boring.
And sorry but never dying? Thats proper exaggeration right there.
What I mean is not that Iron Hands Space Marines aren't powerfull, just that they aren't really , at least in my opinion, more powerfull than the competitive factions like Eldar, Imperial Guard, Tau, etc...
I dislike the supplements for all that rules bloat. But I believe that, unless theres tournament data to back it up, theres a ton of internet drama and hyperbole about them.
Something something kelermorph most OP unit ever...
But now I realized this is the news and rumours theme, not one in general discussion.
Galas wrote: White Scars I don't even consider a marine supplement because the power upgrade they gain from it is so irrelevant that... who cares.
Ultramarines and Ravenguard are two big Ok's.
And the only that makes any kind of impactull difference is Iron Hands, but even that is greatly overrated. Yay marine vehicles don't degrade now! WoW so powerfull when they have one of the worst vehicle selection of the game. Lol dreadnoughts OP! Is a single one for FW than even then isn't all that much more threating. An Imperial Knight supported by proper Imperial Guard artillery and infantry is much much more powerfull.
All the end of the day they are still marines that cost like marines and die like marines. The only difference now is that they can actually dish some damage without Guilliman.
I mean, do we have tournament data or something to back up all this internet talk about how ultra OP are new marines, that are killing 8th edition?
White Scars gain a massive benefit from the Strats and Relics. Their Super Doctrine is basically non existent, which makes them perfect allies for non-Vanilla Marines.
The benefit White Scars gain from those strats and relics can't really compare with the basic power difference in the units of a space marine army and the units of imperial guard, eldar or Tau, or Custodes, for example. And I know 8th is an edition of stratagems and sinergies but...yeah.
Again, theres tournament data or something? I'm sure that is more probable that I'm in the wrong than in the right about space marines. But I still think theres a ton of histeria.
Amazing guys. Yes, the edition is ruined because of a rule we haven't seen in person. Nobody has played with it or against it. Nobody has seen it in the wild. Nobody has seen it perform in a tournament.
"But I have lots of experience and I can tell when a rule is going to be utterly broken!"
Sure. And I'll see you right back here when the next codex comes out, crying about how that has a bunch of broken stuff... and the next... and the next... and the next...
Meanwhile, what usually *actually* happens is that people get the codex, they test it out, they find it's not all that bad, and then they go play some fun games. I'm gunna go be a part of that group, but y'all can keep doomsaying up in here if you want.
Though tbf, I do think the IH need to be toned down just a smidge.
Galas wrote: And the only that makes any kind of impactull difference is Iron Hands, but even that is greatly overrated. Yay marine vehicles don't degrade now! WoW so powerfull when they have one of the worst vehicle selection of the game.
Degrade? That's not the issue. Issue is they are now so ridiculously tough. I need to spend close to 1000 pts and have all the best AT tools available to me to take out single repulsor. In comparison just 480 pts or so could take down knight with decent odds...Meanwhile vs that leviathan that 1000 pts doesn't even overcome healing rate of the leviathan so I could shoot all game vs leviathan and it literally would not die. Meanwhile it will nearly one shot one of my AT units per turn. With me literally unable to do anything to it. No tool actually has reasonable chance of succeed. I can't shoot it, I can't get into close combat reliably enough, I ca't do that with anything big enough to reliably surround it(if I don't surround it just gets out of combat after it attacks and then can shoot) and if I ignore it will rip apart units at ease. And that's just one unit.
Contemptators? I can't shoot them so they are invulnerable.
Only IH build I can do somethig about is 3 repulsor one but gearing up for that makes me suck vs non-IH armies. Fun.
And then their infantry. Park in cover and I have no efficient tool vs their W2 2+ save troops. Troop vs troop I lose shooting war big time. H2h war I lose even worse.
I dislike the supplements for all that rules bloat. But I believe that, unless theres tournament data to back it up, theres a ton of internet drama and hyperbole about them.
Something something kelermorph most OP unit ever...
But now I realized this is the news and rumours theme, not one in general discussion.
First the Kelermorph is a staple of GSC lists. He is incredibly efficient and arguably led to a buff of all Imperial assassins.
Second even at this early stage there is tournament data to back this up. Space marines have gone from roughly 5% of the field at most tournaments to 25, 30% since their codex dropped. Overnight. Their win percentage has increased and their average first loss at events has gotten way, way more favourable. This is without Ironhands who are clearly easier to play than other supplements.
Also can people stop using the bogus line 'they still die like marines!', they don't when fielded as Ironhands and this is one of the massive problems. Their damage output has skyrocketed while they have also become hyper durable. It's too much and it's lame that GW have fallen into their old trap of balance for sales sake rather than for the games sake. Codexes without v2 (everyone) are simply not on the same playing field as marines anymore who now enjoy twice the stratagems and relics of any other factions. They are also the only faction to be able to take infinite relics as of now. That doesn't mean other factions won't be able to compete at all, but their lists with have to change to suit the Marine dominated meta. Competitive players are struggling to come.up with answers to Marines without simply switching to them. That is awful game design.
If GW don't bring the other codexes up to the level of Marines, and fast, my fear is that the meta will become dominated by them and it will become very stale very quickly.
Poor, poor tournament players. it's just a shame that they'll have to change up their lists, whatever will they do? How will they survive in such trying times?
The increase in % of players playing SM is easily explainable by the fact that the most popular army in the game got buffed from being among the worst armies in the game. Contrary to what some people on Dakka seem to think people actually do like Marines a lot, it's not just GWs marketing making them look popular.
There's not enough data yet to make a judgment of whether the book or any given supplement is OP or not. As for the fact that the new book is doing much better than the old one: isn't that the point of buffing an army?
At least the supplements look to be able to compete with one another, so worst-case scenario is Marines have a bunch of different builds that dominate. That's still not as bad as Loyal 32 and a Knight everywhere, or Codex: Dark Reapers and Shining Spears.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The increase in % of players playing SM is easily explainable by the fact that the most popular army in the game got buffed from being among the worst armies in the game. Contrary to what some people on Dakka seem to think people actually do like Marines a lot, it's not just GWs marketing making them look popular.
There's not enough data yet to make a judgment of whether the book or any given supplement is OP or not. As for the fact that the new book is doing much better than the old one: isn't that the point of buffing an army?
At least the supplements look to be able to compete with one another, so worst-case scenario is Marines have a bunch of different builds that dominate. That's still not as bad as Loyal 32 and a Knight everywhere, or Codex: Dark Reapers and Shining Spears.
God damn, imagine if Eldar jumped 25% in winrate in the weeks following a codex and someone said "no guys, Eldar are just a real popular army and people like playing them, nothing in the codex is OP!"
It's always funny watching the double standard in action.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The increase in % of players playing SM is easily explainable by the fact that the most popular army in the game got buffed from being among the worst armies in the game. Contrary to what some people on Dakka seem to think people actually do like Marines a lot, it's not just GWs marketing making them look popular.
There's not enough data yet to make a judgment of whether the book or any given supplement is OP or not. As for the fact that the new book is doing much better than the old one: isn't that the point of buffing an army?
At least the supplements look to be able to compete with one another, so worst-case scenario is Marines have a bunch of different builds that dominate. That's still not as bad as Loyal 32 and a Knight everywhere, or Codex: Dark Reapers and Shining Spears.
God damn, imagine if Eldar jumped 25% in winrate in the weeks following a codex and someone said "no guys, Eldar are just a real popular army and people like playing them, nothing in the codex is OP!"
It's always funny watching the double standard in action.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The increase in % of players playing SM is easily explainable by the fact that the most popular army in the game got buffed from being among the worst armies in the game. Contrary to what some people on Dakka seem to think people actually do like Marines a lot, it's not just GWs marketing making them look popular.
There's not enough data yet to make a judgment of whether the book or any given supplement is OP or not. As for the fact that the new book is doing much better than the old one: isn't that the point of buffing an army?
At least the supplements look to be able to compete with one another, so worst-case scenario is Marines have a bunch of different builds that dominate. That's still not as bad as Loyal 32 and a Knight everywhere, or Codex: Dark Reapers and Shining Spears.
God damn, imagine if Eldar jumped 25% in winrate in the weeks following a codex and someone said "no guys, Eldar are just a real popular army and people like playing them, nothing in the codex is OP!"
It's always funny watching the double standard in action.
As both an Eldar player and someone who really does like Marines, it's not really a double standard as the 2 factions are hardly equal or on a level field. Both are popular, but Marines are well ahead in that popularity, even before this Codex. While Eldar have almost always been "better" in-game than Marines, most players that know their rules and general fluff either play them or play against them OFTEN. But everyone who plays 40K is fairly familiar with Marines
So when a bunch of Marine armies pop up after a new Codex, a good portion of those players probably already had armies. When a bunch of Eldar armies popped up in 7E, we all know why, and it wasn't all die-hard Eldar fluffbunnies
The latest Signals from the Frontline goes into detail on the Ironhands issue and what it likely means for the meta.
Reece, a player much better than me or anyone else on here I'd wager, openly said that he has no reasonable answer to Ironhands flyer build. He literally called it broken. And it is. There's nothing wrong with making marines competitive, but making this broken mess only pushes players away.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The increase in % of players playing SM is easily explainable by the fact that the most popular army in the game got buffed from being among the worst armies in the game. Contrary to what some people on Dakka seem to think people actually do like Marines a lot, it's not just GWs marketing making them look popular.
There's not enough data yet to make a judgment of whether the book or any given supplement is OP or not. As for the fact that the new book is doing much better than the old one: isn't that the point of buffing an army?
At least the supplements look to be able to compete with one another, so worst-case scenario is Marines have a bunch of different builds that dominate. That's still not as bad as Loyal 32 and a Knight everywhere, or Codex: Dark Reapers and Shining Spears.
God damn, imagine if Eldar jumped 25% in winrate in the weeks following a codex and someone said "no guys, Eldar are just a real popular army and people like playing them, nothing in the codex is OP!"
It's always funny watching the double standard in action.
As both an Eldar player and someone who really does like Marines, it's not really a double standard as the 2 factions are hardly equal or on a level field. Both are popular, but Marines are well ahead in that popularity, even before this Codex. While Eldar have almost always been "better" in-game than Marines, most players that know their rules and general fluff either play them or play against them OFTEN. But everyone who plays 40K is fairly familiar with Marines
So when a bunch of Marine armies pop up after a new Codex, a good portion of those players probably already had armies. When a bunch of Eldar armies popped up in 7E, we all know why, and it wasn't all die-hard Eldar fluffbunnies
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Top tables tournament lists are not driven by love of the fluff. I agree with you that the sheer speed of these armies appearing is most likely due to almost all competitive 40k players having a bunch of marine models of the usual suspects in competitive marine lists (Razorbacks, Leviathans, the flyers from earlier in the edition, smashcaptains etc). But the REASON they show up at all is because new marines are ridiculously good, not because "oh now they're just average I'll just take my marines I love so very much like my little children, and with the power of my love for their fluff I shall win this tournament."
Also no one said the WINRATE increase by 25% (and honestly if the space marines win rate went from 5% to 25% that just means they went from "complete and utter near unplayable garbage" to "garbage") but the play rate went from 5% at major tournies to 25% which isn't that bad. I don't know the exact figures, and I suspect it's hard to really tell but I suspect a vast majority of 40k players have a space Marine army, even if it's just a handfull of models cobbled together from various starter sets. And many people likely got into 40k when they first saw a space Marine.
Compeitive players will do what they have to to win, absolutely, but I bet a LOT of compeitive players have a favorite army they'd ideally like to play
An increase in people playing Space Marine armies is likely due to the fact that a lot of people already had those armies sitting on their shelves, waiting for a Codex update. Many of the batreps online have been people with older collections testing out all the new rules.
Only a handful of the batreps I've seen have a lot of primaris in them. And only one I can think of that's pure Primaris.
Contrary to some of your fantasies, there are plenty of players who own neither vanilla or chocolate flavoured marines. There's also plenty who don't particularly care for them.
Which is completely beside the point. There are a bunch of people who do. Everyone doesn't have to play Space Marines in order for the new Codex to massively drive the amount of people playing Marines at tournaments.
The win % went up from like 45-50 to 55-60% I think. You'll have to listen to stats centre to get the exact numbers. I can't remember them off hand.
So basicly the win rate going up most likely simply reflects that as per the other statistics there were more marine armies in the tournament, as for Reece it's not like he has not got form for talking bollocks if he thinks it will advantage him in anyway.
The win % went up from like 45-50 to 55-60% I think. You'll have to listen to stats centre to get the exact numbers. I can't remember them off hand.
So basicly the win rate going up most likely simply reflects that as per the other statistics there were more marine armies in the tournament, as for Reece it's not like he has not got form for talking bollocks if he thinks it will advantage him in anyway.
Yep, tactically he's evidently a very high level player. However the crap he was talking pre 8th and early 8th about the meta were quite unfounded.
ITC does not = all of 40k. What works there will not necessarily translate to all game formats.
The win % went up from like 45-50 to 55-60% I think. You'll have to listen to stats centre to get the exact numbers. I can't remember them off hand.
So basicly the win rate going up most likely simply reflects that as per the other statistics there were more marine armies in the tournament, as for Reece it's not like he has not got form for talking bollocks if he thinks it will advantage him in anyway.
Yep, tactically he's evidently a very high level player. However the crap he was talking pre 8th and early 8th about the meta were quite unfounded.
ITC does not = all of 40k. What works there will not necessarily translate to all game formats.
Yeah not only that but I'm pretty sure I remember at least one occasion he fanned the hyperbole about some unbeatable setup and the proceeded to piss himself laughing as he destroyed every mug who believed him and used it at the following tournament.
Plus ITC is a terrible yardstick for balance or pretty much anything else given it's terrible over reliance on kills over actual objectives among other issues.
The win % went up from like 45-50 to 55-60% I think. You'll have to listen to stats centre to get the exact numbers. I can't remember them off hand.
So basicly the win rate going up most likely simply reflects that as per the other statistics there were more marine armies in the tournament
No. The win rate went up significantly and it has nothing to do with the numbers of players. If the codex were weaker we would have seen a higher proportion of losses. The "first loss" (TWIP) also went up significantly. Both statistics now sit at a higher level than average, the TWIP in particular is moving towards pre-nerf Knight Castellan levels and this is without IH.
I don't really get all the beef on Reece, he's done more for the game than literally this entire forum and all of us in it. He's an ambassador of the hobby and it's clearly his passion.
E - it doesn't really matter if you're playing ITC or ETC - if you can't shift a unit from objectives without wasting a ton of resources you lose the game. This is what IH bring.
According to 40kstats when filtering for only games since the 17th of August Codex: Space Marines has a win rate of 51.83%. Still behind Genestealer Cults, Eldar of both types and, interestingly enough, Custodes. A 51.83% win rate (1.83% ahead of Orks who are at exactly 50%) is not OP, and it's nowhere near the 60%+ win rates Eldar or Knights had when they were in their prime.
Doing the same with their TWiP places them at 1.77, just behind Adepta Sororitas at 1.80. Using this as a metric, Orks at 2.12 are clearly overpowered and have to be nerfed as soon as possible.
Or, funnily enough, there's not enough data to draw any conclusions one way or another yet. Like I said.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: According to 40kstats when filtering for only games since the 17th of August Codex: Space Marines has a win rate of 51.83%. Still behind Genestealer Cults, Eldar of both types and, interestingly enough, Custodes. A 51.83% win rate (1.83% ahead of Orks who are at exactly 50%) is not OP, and it's nowhere near the 60%+ win rates Eldar or Knights had when they were in their prime.
Doing the same with their TWiP places them at 1.77, just behind Adepta Sororitas at 1.80. Using this as a metric, Orks at 2.12 are clearly overpowered and have to be nerfed as soon as possible.
Or, funnily enough, there's not enough data to draw any conclusions one way or another yet. Like I said.
Don't forget the large amounts of Marines turning up as well, or was that already calculated?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: According to 40kstats when filtering for only games since the 17th of August Codex: Space Marines has a win rate of 51.83%. Still behind Genestealer Cults, Eldar of both types and, interestingly enough, Custodes. A 51.83% win rate (1.83% ahead of Orks who are at exactly 50%) is not OP, and it's nowhere near the 60%+ win rates Eldar or Knights had when they were in their prime.
Doing the same with their TWiP places them at 1.77, just behind Adepta Sororitas at 1.80. Using this as a metric, Orks at 2.12 are clearly overpowered and have to be nerfed as soon as possible.
Or, funnily enough, there's not enough data to draw any conclusions one way or another yet. Like I said.
Don't forget the large amounts of Marines turning up as well, or was that already calculated?
Yeah going by the figures given here the play rate went up from 5% to 25% and win rate went up 10%ish so I don't see any issue there tbh.
I think from what I have heard is that IH is a hard counter to elder flying circus so there is a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth. Also I think IH flyers are a pretty good counter to any of the -1 to hit chapter tactics in general so that ain't going to upset most tournament players no no no
AlmightyWalrus wrote: According to 40kstats when filtering for only games since the 17th of August Codex: Space Marines has a win rate of 51.83%. Still behind Genestealer Cults, Eldar of both types and, interestingly enough, Custodes. A 51.83% win rate (1.83% ahead of Orks who are at exactly 50%) is not OP, and it's nowhere near the 60%+ win rates Eldar or Knights had when they were in their prime.
Doing the same with their TWiP places them at 1.77, just behind Adepta Sororitas at 1.80. Using this as a metric, Orks at 2.12 are clearly overpowered and have to be nerfed as soon as possible.
Or, funnily enough, there's not enough data to draw any conclusions one way or another yet. Like I said.
Don't forget the large amounts of Marines turning up as well, or was that already calculated?
Yeah going by the figures given here the play rate went up from 5% to 25% and win rate went up 10%ish so I don't see any issue there tbh.
I think from what I have heard is that IH is a hard counter to elder flying circus so there is a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth. Also I think IH flyers are a pretty good counter to any of the -1 to hit chapter tactics in general so that ain't going to upset most tournament players no no no
true whenever a new codex comes out, even if it's balanced or even slightly underpowered you definatly see a lot of complaining if it happens to have the potential to hard counter a popular tourny meta. I'm not even saying Iron Hands might not have their issues, but there is very much a trend of people seeing broken for stuff that will force them to ADAPT.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: According to 40kstats when filtering for only games since the 17th of August Codex: Space Marines has a win rate of 51.83%. Still behind Genestealer Cults, Eldar of both types and, interestingly enough, Custodes. A 51.83% win rate (1.83% ahead of Orks who are at exactly 50%) is not OP, and it's nowhere near the 60%+ win rates Eldar or Knights had when they were in their prime.
Doing the same with their TWiP places them at 1.77, just behind Adepta Sororitas at 1.80. Using this as a metric, Orks at 2.12 are clearly overpowered and have to be nerfed as soon as possible.
Or, funnily enough, there's not enough data to draw any conclusions one way or another yet. Like I said.
Your stats are wrong either because they are not up to date or simply because they are wrong. I know that their TWiP is over 2 now.
The latest stats centre goes into detail on this and Marines are shooting up.
I think you'd be hard pressed or simply ignorant not to see the writing on the wall as far as the new meta is going to be concerned. Ironhands will be a problem unless GW do something quickly. If the playtesters are saying it (who've played many more games with nu marines than us), the numbers back this up (unkillable Levis, ridiculous flyers) and anecdotally people are already getting destroyed by them, I think it's hard to suggest otherwise.
E - the Iron hands flyer list is a counter to EVERYTHING apart from the Ironhands flyer list. It is broken.
E - it doesn't make a difference if the number of players went up from 5% to 25%, this doesn't mean we'd expect to see a 10% increase in wins unless something was very strong/borderline op.
5.5% of players up to 12.85% of players (my 25% totally off). Knights dropped to make this up primarily but consistent loss of 1%ish across all factions. For comparison Guard + Castellan had about 12-13% representation at it's peak.
Win rate of 52% now which is roughly the same as Tau and Drukhari. Previous win rate was something like 45% but Ultramarines had a 50% win rate pre codex v2.
Mono faction win rate is 53%. 91% of ALL Marine lists are mono now.
Marines getting 2 more VP per game and giving up 1 VP less per game in ITC set up. Only Tau and Harlequins compete in this regard (but Harlies aren't taken as a primary very often).
Win rates increased across the board since codex releaase but struggle against Necrons (27% win rate in 30 games), Custodes (38%) and Death Guard (40%) currently.
SM currently dominating Orks (65% win rate), Daemons (69%) and CSM (64%).
During the last 13 events SM account for more than 20% of all lists in a winning position in final rounds, TWiP is 2.12 which is high.
2 massive tournaments were not included in stats (Battlefield Birmingham and a GW event) where SM performed very well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and another question - how do they differentiate between daemons, CSM, chaos knights, TS and DG? Almost all of those lists are just chaos soup.
5.5% of players up to 12.85% of players (my 25% totally off). Knights dropped to make this up primarily but consistent loss of 1%ish across all factions. For comparison Guard + Castellan had about 12-13% representation at it's peak.
Win rate of 52% now which is roughly the same as Tau and Drukhari. Previous win rate was something like 45% but Ultramarines had a 50% win rate pre codex v2.
Mono faction win rate is 53%. 91% of ALL Marine lists are mono now.
Marines getting 2 more VP per game and giving up 1 VP less per game in ITC set up. Only Tau and Harlequins compete in this regard (but Harlies aren't taken as a primary very often).
Win rates increased across the board since codex releaase but struggle against Necrons (27% win rate in 30 games), Custodes (38%) and Death Guard (40%) currently.
SM currently dominating Orks (65% win rate), Daemons (69%) and CSM (64%).
During the last 13 events SM account for more than 20% of all lists in a winning position in final rounds, TWiP is 2.12 which is high.
2 massive tournaments were not included in stats (Battlefield Birmingham and a GW event) where SM performed very well.
In the age of soup how do they detirmine what an army is? I ask because it's rare as hell to see full knight armies,and if it's based around say... warlord trait, or points percentage I could see Knights being displaced as Marine players drop castellans etc from their lists for the super doctrine.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and another question - how do they differentiate between daemons, CSM, chaos knights, TS and DG? Almost all of those lists are just chaos soup.
I think it's by primary faction but you'd have to ask the guys who run the stats I'm afraid.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and another question - how do they differentiate between daemons, CSM, chaos knights, TS and DG? Almost all of those lists are just chaos soup.
I think it's by primary faction but you'd have to ask the guys who run the stats I'm afraid.
So, prersumably based around percentage of the list. so yeah, part of this likely is space marine lists dropping expensive lords of war etc from their lists to take advantage of the super doctrine. part of it is people wanting to test out new ideas with the codex (I'm sure there's a jump in army rep everytime a new codex comes out.) and yeah part of it is people chasing the meta because yes Marines are VERY powerful right now. It suprises me that they do so well vs Orks. not regularly playing agaisnt Orks myself whats changed? (presumably Orks did alright prior to this 'dex) a lotta the biggest changes to Marines I would think would have minimal impact on Orks.
Well lootas became pretty much useless vs ih. Ssag took hit as well. Charging into ih costs lot more and orks have little tools agains tripple repulsors. Shooting not efficient, ds charge self harming and even in face charge you lose over third squad, unlikely to kill and then it flies away.
Necrons have pretty much no tool either. Infantry vs infantry gun duel loss, vehicle vs vehicle even worse.
So even going with Frontline over 40kstats Marines aren't actually over performing, and they explicitly say we need more data in regards to the vs. faction lineup.
It's possible that the Iron Hands will break the meta, and it's possible they won't. We don't know.
The win % went up from like 45-50 to 55-60% I think. You'll have to listen to stats centre to get the exact numbers. I can't remember them off hand.
So basicly the win rate going up most likely simply reflects that as per the other statistics there were more marine armies in the tournament, as for Reece it's not like he has not got form for talking bollocks if he thinks it will advantage him in anyway.
Yep, tactically he's evidently a very high level player. However the crap he was talking pre 8th and early 8th about the meta were quite unfounded.
ITC does not = all of 40k. What works there will not necessarily translate to all game formats.
Yeah not only that but I'm pretty sure I remember at least one occasion he fanned the hyperbole about some unbeatable setup and the proceeded to piss himself laughing as he destroyed every mug who believed him and used it at the following tournament.
Plus ITC is a terrible yardstick for balance or pretty much anything else given it's terrible over reliance on kills over actual objectives among other issues.
Is that true? I'd argue strongly that is a display of sociopathic tendencies... What if people spent a lot of money on this list, and it was their budget for the hobby for the year? Where is the empathy for that situation? (Whether they should listen to him or not is another matter).
Not really representative and upstanding conduct from a 'leader' within the community, which whether he wants to be or not he is, there's people in here vouching for him.
If it is true, it's a direct slight against him, he is automatically unreliable with any information he now contributes to the community as it would not be able to be trusted.
Anyway, I'll move on from that now. I think you'll find that IH won't be as dominating as people think. It may cause an interesting shift though with people preparing for anti-flier and actually bringing dedicated anti flier units. Hilariously, an Iron hands stalker/hunter build may counter it quite well, and they will have tech marines and the iron father close by to repair them.
