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H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Cultists were made available. Options, no. Unit available without alteration? Yes.

Some of them were. They're missing unit leaders and weapon upgrades though. Plus, if you want cultists you have to get the same 5 poses, over and over.

An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
On the Deffkoptas, they were available as metal models. Again, not ideal but still available without using the starterbox or conversion work.

Not with all of their 2 weapon options.

Voss wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
regarding the gravis captain, once we get a new starter box, I expect the contents of Know no fear to be packaged seperately as start collecting primaris marines and start collecting death guard.

Really? I wouldn't expect that- Those are mono-pause models in colored plastic, with no weapon options. Not the sort of thing that usually shows up in start collecting boxes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:

Cultists were made available. Options, no. Unit available without alteration? Yes.

Yeah, no. Over half the unit is missing. You might as well argue that these
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Imperial-Guard-Cadians-5-models-2017
and these
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Easy-To-Build-Ork-Boyz-2018
are good enough on their own to make full guard squads and ork mobs.

For the record, I was never discussiny poses, loadouts, or anything else other than the ability to field a unit using a model xreated for the purpose of that unit and no conversion, counts as or anything else. Deffkoptas, Cultiste, Dreadnoughts, Lieutenants, are all able to be fielded without even touching the starter boxes. Gravis Captain and Primaris Ancient are not.

 Deadshot wrote:
For the record, I was never discussiny poses, loadouts, or anything else other than the ability to field a unit using a model xreated for the purpose of that unit and no conversion, counts as or anything else. Deffkoptas, Cultiste, Dreadnoughts, Lieutenants, are all able to be fielded without even touching the starter boxes. Gravis Captain and Primaris Ancient are not.

Yes but you're wrong. In this WYSIWYG world we now live in, there is no way for me to purchase Deffkoptas with Kopta Rokkits from GW. It's as simple as that. To throw your own point back at you - there are separate models for the Captain, he just isn't in his Gravis armour loadout.

 Deadshot wrote:


For the record, I was never discussiny poses, loadouts, or anything else other than the ability to field a unit using a model xreated for the purpose of that unit and no conversion, counts as or anything else. Deffkoptas, Cultiste, Dreadnoughts, Lieutenants, are all able to be fielded without even touching the starter boxes. Gravis Captain and Primaris Ancient are not.

Don't care what you want in the 'record.' Fielding a unit in the appropriate current codex (not even the index) by buying a unit with its full range of options from GW should be the bottom rung standard. That they're lacking sergeants, weapons, etc means they can't be fielded with no conversions, counts as or anything else.

More than a few things haven't met that basic standard for years- moving on from things that were in starter boxes, we can include eldar aspect warriors, since almost all exarchs lack their alternate loadouts, for some they never existed at all, despite nearly three decades rolling by.

 Deadshot wrote:


For the record, I was never discussiny poses, loadouts, or anything else other than the ability to field a unit using a model xreated for the purpose of that unit and no conversion, counts as or anything else. Deffkoptas, Cultiste, Dreadnoughts, Lieutenants, are all able to be fielded without even touching the starter boxes. Gravis Captain and Primaris Ancient are not.

Well, if we are going to be picky, the metal deffkopta was released as a special character for the Gorkamorka game, and the plastic ones in AoBR were the first ”proper” wh40k models. So I’m still waiting.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
For the record, I was never discussiny poses, loadouts, or anything else other than the ability to field a unit using a model xreated for the purpose of that unit and no conversion, counts as or anything else. Deffkoptas, Cultiste, Dreadnoughts, Lieutenants, are all able to be fielded without even touching the starter boxes. Gravis Captain and Primaris Ancient are not.

Yes but you're wrong. In this WYSIWYG world we now live in, there is no way for me to purchase Deffkoptas with Kopta Rokkits from GW. It's as simple as that. To throw your own point back at you - there are separate models for the Captain, he just isn't in his Gravis armour loadout.

Gravis Captain is a seperate unit entry to Captain. You can buy a unit called "Deffkoptas" (maybe, are they still on sale?), you can't buy a unit called Gravis Captain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:


For the record, I was never discussiny poses, loadouts, or anything else other than the ability to field a unit using a model xreated for the purpose of that unit and no conversion, counts as or anything else. Deffkoptas, Cultiste, Dreadnoughts, Lieutenants, are all able to be fielded without even touching the starter boxes. Gravis Captain and Primaris Ancient are not.

Don't care what you want in the 'record.' Fielding a unit in the appropriate current codex (not even the index) by buying a unit with its full range of options from GW should be the bottom rung standard. That they're lacking sergeants, weapons, etc means they can't be fielded with no conversions, counts as or anything else.
More than a few things haven't met that basic standard for years- moving on from things that were in starter boxes, we can include eldar aspect warriors, since almost all exarchs lack their alternate loadouts, for some they never existed at all, despite nearly three decades rolling by.

I wasn't discussing loadouts - I was discussing unit entries. You are right in that they are below standard but again, you're talking about something different than me - which us that units can't be played at all without conversion. You can play Aspect Warriors without conversion. Closer to what I'm discussing is the Tervigon, Tyrannofex, Mycetic Spores, Doom of Malantai,back un 5th Ed Tyranids - playable units, no models except those didnt even come in a starter box.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Oguhmek wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:


For the record, I was never discussiny poses, loadouts, or anything else other than the ability to field a unit using a model xreated for the purpose of that unit and no conversion, counts as or anything else. Deffkoptas, Cultiste, Dreadnoughts, Lieutenants, are all able to be fielded without even touching the starter boxes. Gravis Captain and Primaris Ancient are not.

Well, if we are going to be picky, the metal deffkopta was released as a special character for the Gorkamorka game, and the plastic ones in AoBR were the first ”proper” wh40k models. So I’m still waiting.

Not being picky, just restating my points of discussion - unit entries unavailable outside boxsets. Idk if the metal models are still sold, but currently I know Gravis Captain, Primaris Ancient, Suppressors, fall into that category.

From Kikasstou on the french warhammer forum:

About imperial fists:

Doctrine is +1D with heavy weapons when devastator doctrine is active.

1 CP: each member of an intercessor squad can launch a grenade.

Psychic table doesn't seems very interesting with a lot of powers against buildings. A lot of stratagems to reinforce your antitank capabilities but nothing really concrete.

Psychocouac wrote:
From Kikasstou on the french warhammer forum:

powers against buildings.

nothing really concrete.

ehehehehehehehehehehe

+1D heavy weapons is pretty ridiculously powerful when thinking about certain Heavy type weapons and the IF chapter tactic.

GW: "We will definitely be increasing the power of space marines in this codex - marines don't feel like marines anymore!"

Also GW: An IF Twin Assault Cannon Razorback puts out a dozen S6 Ap-2 D2 Ignores Cover shots.

Remember when people used to complain about Dissie ravagers lolololol

EDIT: Might as well rename this release "how dumb can we make Leviathans" at this point.

Take a Siegebreaker detachment of IF. Take a captain with Indomitable warlord trait and eye of hypnoth. Spend 1CP, all your leviathan dreads now do this:

20 S7 Ap-3 D3 shots rerolling 1s to hit and to wound ignoring cover and dealing mortal wounds to vehicles on a 6.

Assault Cannons? I’m already deathly afraid of my buddies Heavy Bolter Centurians who get the extra hits on 6’s. And now he’ll need half the hits to drop my Primaris.

So we all know how strong the white scar doctrine is with it's +1 melee damage bit and how it's only limited by being active turn 3. Ok so lets go ahead and give that to Imperial Fists, make it effect heavy weapons and start on turn 1. The +1 damage is insanely powerful on high rate of fire heavies or heck even the eliminators are going to drop characters like a bad habit. Heavy bolters, onslaught cannons, razorbacks etc etc. It is a bit countered by super heavy horde builds which is nice and the iron hand death bubble will be able to mitigate it so some level, but in a straight shoot out jeez it;s going to be rough.

Also remember they can t1 focus down your multi wound stuff then transition to tactical then back to dev if they need to for whatever reason.

GW really wants you to use terrain that block line of sight. Or alpha strike, which ever one works.

Perhaps alternate activations wouldn't be too bad after all.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
So we all know how strong the white scar doctrine is with it's +1 melee damage bit and how it's only limited by being active turn 3. Ok so lets go ahead and give that to Imperial Fists, make it effect heavy weapons and start on turn 1. The +1 damage is insanely powerful on high rate of fire heavies or heck even the eliminators are going to drop characters like a bad habit. Heavy bolters, onslaught cannons, razorbacks etc etc. It is a bit countered by super heavy horde builds which is nice and the iron hand death bubble will be able to mitigate it so some level, but in a straight shoot out jeez it;s going to be rough.

Also remember they can t1 focus down your multi wound stuff then transition to tactical then back to dev if they need to for whatever reason.

Vehicles and Buildings only. It is trash compared to the IH doctrine.

How to torpedo an edition in one 7! part release.

Valrak is stating it's +1D against vehicles and buildings for heavy weapons while in Devastator (which changes the equation considerably).

Sterling191 wrote:
Valrak is stating it's +1D against vehicles and buildings for heavy weapons while in Devastator (which changes the equation considerably).

Huh, that does change things up a bit.
Good thing most of the best necron units aren't vehicles I guess.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Valrak is stating it's +1D against vehicles and buildings for heavy weapons while in Devastator (which changes the equation considerably).

Huh, that does change things up a bit.
Good thing most of the best necron units aren't vehicles I guess.

Tyranids are dancin'

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Valrak is stating it's +1D against vehicles and buildings for heavy weapons while in Devastator (which changes the equation considerably).

Huh, that does change things up a bit.
Good thing most of the best necron units aren't vehicles I guess.

It actually makes IF WORSE against Necron vehicles in the Devastator Doctrine. Wow....

Ahh yeah if it's only against vehicles and buildings it's still good, but not over powered. Turn 1 focus down enemy vehicles then move on to whatever. IMO it should have been against monsters and vehicles, but hey is what it is. Yeah I'd say Iron Hands are still on top in that regard.

Yeah if this is accurate and always on (I think I've heard that it might only be vs buildings and vehicles) then it has some odd effects. Like my repulsor executioners doing more damage with their gatling guns than with their heavy lasers. And flyers being really quite good.

I don't think razorbacks will be competitive though. They've still got the issue of getting locked in combat. They are still not playing the same game at all as a Crimson Hunter Exarch and have no way to compete.

The strat to have an intercessor squad throw grenades is quite interesting. One factor is that it might make sense to have stalker rifles. Your base infantry have a D3 gun with -3 ap and then for dakka you can throw a ton of frag grenades.

On the other hand, the strat is basically worthless if using ABRs. Those d6 grenade attacks are basically identical to the 3 shots the ABR would give you.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Valrak is stating it's +1D against vehicles and buildings for heavy weapons while in Devastator (which changes the equation considerably).

Huh, that does change things up a bit.
Good thing most of the best necron units aren't vehicles I guess.

It actually makes IF WORSE against Necron vehicles in the Devastator Doctrine. Wow....

Eh, not really.
QS is actually not that reliable against anything that deals less than 3 damage. If you want to frustrate a necron player, take a bunch of D2 weapons and dump it all into his QS vehicles. You'll be surprised how quickly they'll go down.
Its almost as if T6 4+ save are crap defenses, and necrons should really have heavy vehicles that won't fall apart, both figuratively and literally.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Valrak is stating it's +1D against vehicles and buildings for heavy weapons while in Devastator (which changes the equation considerably).

Huh, that does change things up a bit.
Good thing most of the best necron units aren't vehicles I guess.

It actually makes IF WORSE against Necron vehicles in the Devastator Doctrine. Wow....

Depends on weapon. Razorback Assault cannon goes from 2.6666 wounds to 4.4444 wounds vs doomsday ark. Similarly autocannon improves.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Ahh yeah if it's only against vehicles and buildings it's still good, but not over powered. Turn 1 focus down enemy vehicles then move on to whatever. IMO it should have been against monsters and vehicles, but hey is what it is. Yeah I'd say Iron Hands are still on top in that regard.

I gotta disagree, because in a IGOUGO format, Imperial Fists going first kills the person that brought the "wrong" army.

This is why the Supplements were a bad idea and I told everyone this from the beginning.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Ahh yeah if it's only against vehicles and buildings it's still good, but not over powered. Turn 1 focus down enemy vehicles then move on to whatever. IMO it should have been against monsters and vehicles, but hey is what it is. Yeah I'd say Iron Hands are still on top in that regard.

I gotta disagree, because in a IGOUGO format, Imperial Fists going first kills the person that brought the "wrong" army.

This is why the Supplements were a bad idea and I told everyone this from the beginning.

Absence of codex supplements doesn't fix bad rules/design. But keep beating that dead horse.

Sorry guys, yes it's against vehicles only. Forgot to add that part. :s

Phew. I started to fear for my poor destroyers and wraiths. Well not that necrons have much hope vs numarines anyway.

Still assault cannons will rip dda's apart in no time :(

It's a stupid rule. It makes multishot heavy weapons the best tool for every job. It discourages the IF from taking actual tank and bunker busting weapons like lascannons and missile launchers. It also makes pretty much all non-IH vehicle-heavy armies unusable against the IF.

Damn, these supplements are such a disaster. The codex itself is very nice, good buffs and balancing but the supplements are full of utterly bonkers stuff.

Yeah. TOs should probably just use the base Marine Dex for competitive play and leave the supplements for narrative gaming.

That’d actually give Marines a nice boost without invalidating everything else.

I mean, no way GW puts out a chapter tactic so broken as +1 damage on heavy weapons vs vehicles. I'll believe it when I see it.

Unless their whole idea of balance is rock-paper-scissors and then they are dumber (as a whole and individually) than any one on this board has ever insinuated (and that's a pretty low bar). CF eat IH so IH aren't a problem? I have no idea...

I guess if they yanarri nerf the levi dread and not let the chapter tactic apply to weapons carried by vehicles? I just don't see how giving an entire army a 20-100% boost on damage from the most efficient weapons does anything but destroy the balance for the 8 other armies paying the same points for those weapons doing 80-50% of the damage. Storm cannon, heavy bolter, Gatling and assault cannon all the things I guess...

 Crimson wrote:
It's a stupid rule. It makes multishot heavy weapons the best tool for every job. It discourages the IF from taking actual tank and bunker busting weapons like lascannons and missile launchers. It also makes pretty much all non-IH vehicle-heavy armies unusable against the IF.

In fairness thats been a problem all edition but yeah I'd have prefered to see something differant. maybe gain cover while in devestator doctrine. this'd work reasonably nicely with Imperial Fists being a siege based chapter. Dig in and bombard with heavy weapons then sweep in and crush the enemy with later stuff once you've gunlined em down

bananathug wrote:
I mean, no way GW puts out a chapter tactic so broken as +1 damage on heavy weapons vs vehicles. I'll believe it when I see it.

Unless their whole idea of balance is rock-paper-scissors and then they are dumber (as a whole and individually) than any one on this board has ever insinuated (and that's a pretty low bar). CF eat IH so IH aren't a problem? I have no idea...

I guess if they yanarri nerf the levi dread and not let the chapter tactic apply to weapons carried by vehicles? I just don't see how giving an entire army a 20-100% boost on damage from the most efficient weapons does anything but destroy the balance for the 8 other armies paying the same points for those weapons doing 80-50% of the damage. Storm cannon, heavy bolter, Gatling and assault cannon all the things I guess...

Naah this is quite normal for gw.

Oh and btw this superdoctrine is not particularly good vs iron hands. It encourages high rate of weapons like assault cannon that becomes nasty dam2 weapon. Very nasty vs vehicles. However iroe hands turn that back to dam1 weapon

2x Twin Heavy Bolter Morris Contemptor Dreadnought FTW.