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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Crimson wrote:
It's a stupid rule. It makes multishot heavy weapons the best tool for every job. It discourages the IF from taking actual tank and bunker busting weapons like lascannons and missile launchers. It also makes pretty much all non-IH vehicle-heavy armies unusable against the IF.

Damn, these supplements are such a disaster. The codex itself is very nice, good buffs and balancing but the supplements are full of utterly bonkers stuff.

Something something SlayerFan says consolidation with just a few extra bits something something

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

the_scotsman wrote:
EDIT: Might as well rename this release "how dumb can we make Leviathans" at this point.
I very much doubt Leviathan Dreads factor into anything GW writes, given they're a FW unit.

   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

TBH playing agaisnt Nu-marines they don't fell all that powerfull.

At least now they present some kind of battle to my Taus and I even lose some games! Thats refreshing.

The IH Leviathan Dread is receiving too much internet hype. And I don't dispute maybe is something ridiculous but if it is, it will spawn in the top competitive tournaments and get addresed.

But all this "Marines go from being one of the worst factions to DESTROY THE EDITION because +1 extra Ap with the same point costs" is just non-sense Internet hiperbole.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/03 22:43:02


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






 Galas wrote:
TBH playing agaisnt Nu-marines they don't fell all that powerfull.

At least now they present some kind of battle to my Taus and I even lose some games! Thats refreshing.

The IH Leviathan Dread is receiving too much internet hype. And I don't dispute maybe is something ridiculous but if it is, it will spawn in the top competitive tournaments and get addresed.

But all this "Marines go from being one of the worst factions to DESTROY THE EDITION because +1 extra Ap with the same point costs" is just non-sense Internet hiperbole.


Have you ever stopped to consider that perhaps Tau are incredibly powerful also?

As well as being perfect counters to Marines both nu and old?
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 Galas wrote:
TBH playing agaisnt Nu-marines they don't fell all that powerfull.

At least now they present some kind of battle to my Taus and I even lose some games! Thats refreshing.

The IH Leviathan Dread is receiving too much internet hype. And I don't dispute maybe is something ridiculous but if it is, it will spawn in the top competitive tournaments and get addresed.

But all this "Marines go from being one of the worst factions to DESTROY THE EDITION because +1 extra Ap with the same point costs" is just non-sense Internet hiperbole.


Have you ever stopped to consider that perhaps Tau are incredibly powerful also?

As well as being perfect counters to Marines both nu and old?


Probably but surely not with the list I use, lol.

Even with my crappy lists I was winning agaisnt old marine lists that were geared toward competitive. And even more after all the CA point cost drops. I don't spam drones nor Riptides, for example.

I can understand that the nu-marines appear to be OMG SO OP to very weak factions like necrons, all the other marines factions, orks, etc... but for the rest of the factions of the game? Now at least they can compete. Genestealer Cults, Imperial Guard, Eldars, Tau, etc...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/03 23:20:43


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Against what marine supplements you have played?

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

White Scars I don't even consider a marine supplement because the power upgrade they gain from it is so irrelevant that... who cares.

Ultramarines and Ravenguard are two big Ok's.

And the only that makes any kind of impactull difference is Iron Hands, but even that is greatly overrated. Yay marine vehicles don't degrade now! WoW so powerfull when they have one of the worst vehicle selection of the game. Lol dreadnoughts OP! Is a single one for FW than even then isn't all that much more threating. An Imperial Knight supported by proper Imperial Guard artillery and infantry is much much more powerfull.

All the end of the day they are still marines that cost like marines and die like marines. The only difference now is that they can actually dish some damage without Guilliman.

I mean, do we have tournament data or something to back up all this internet talk about how ultra OP are new marines, that are killing 8th edition?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/03 23:37:18


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in ca
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





British Columbia

It really doesn't sound like you've faced Iron Hands. It's not the slower degrading it's the never dying while putting out withering accurate firepower while moving.

What are you using to silence their vehicles before they mulch your troops?

 Crimson Devil wrote:
That's what 7th edition is about. Yelling "Forge the Narrative Pussy!" while kicking your opponent in the dick.
 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

A good ol' bunch of firewarriors (60-80) + Missilesides with drones, some commanders (Not the Fusion suicide ones) + Kauyon and one or two riptides if one is fancy. Skyrays with their burst are actually better than many people give them credit for. Do a proper suit list with 3 Riptides and a spam of drones with Saviour Protocols and you can laugh at anything marines throw at you, but I don't play like that, is ultra boring.
And sorry but never dying? Thats proper exaggeration right there.

What I mean is not that Iron Hands Space Marines aren't powerfull, just that they aren't really , at least in my opinion, more powerfull than the competitive factions like Eldar, Imperial Guard, Tau, etc...
I dislike the supplements for all that rules bloat. But I believe that, unless theres tournament data to back it up, theres a ton of internet drama and hyperbole about them.

Something something kelermorph most OP unit ever...

But now I realized this is the news and rumours theme, not one in general discussion.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/10/04 00:17:33


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Galas wrote:
White Scars I don't even consider a marine supplement because the power upgrade they gain from it is so irrelevant that... who cares.

Ultramarines and Ravenguard are two big Ok's.

And the only that makes any kind of impactull difference is Iron Hands, but even that is greatly overrated. Yay marine vehicles don't degrade now! WoW so powerfull when they have one of the worst vehicle selection of the game. Lol dreadnoughts OP! Is a single one for FW than even then isn't all that much more threating. An Imperial Knight supported by proper Imperial Guard artillery and infantry is much much more powerfull.

All the end of the day they are still marines that cost like marines and die like marines. The only difference now is that they can actually dish some damage without Guilliman.

I mean, do we have tournament data or something to back up all this internet talk about how ultra OP are new marines, that are killing 8th edition?

White Scars gain a massive benefit from the Strats and Relics. Their Super Doctrine is basically non existent, which makes them perfect allies for non-Vanilla Marines.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

The benefit White Scars gain from those strats and relics can't really compare with the basic power difference in the units of a space marine army and the units of imperial guard, eldar or Tau, or Custodes, for example. And I know 8th is an edition of stratagems and sinergies but...yeah.

Again, theres tournament data or something? I'm sure that is more probable that I'm in the wrong than in the right about space marines. But I still think theres a ton of histeria.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/04 00:46:22


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Half-understood rumors on the Internet?

You bet Dakkadakka's up in flames about it!

Amazing guys. Yes, the edition is ruined because of a rule we haven't seen in person. Nobody has played with it or against it. Nobody has seen it in the wild. Nobody has seen it perform in a tournament.

"But I have lots of experience and I can tell when a rule is going to be utterly broken!"

Sure. And I'll see you right back here when the next codex comes out, crying about how that has a bunch of broken stuff... and the next... and the next... and the next...

Meanwhile, what usually *actually* happens is that people get the codex, they test it out, they find it's not all that bad, and then they go play some fun games. I'm gunna go be a part of that group, but y'all can keep doomsaying up in here if you want.

Though tbf, I do think the IH need to be toned down just a smidge.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Though tbf, I do think the IH need to be toned down just a smidge.


We'll see. i doubt they really need it.
   
Made in gb
Multispectral Hsien





Gosport, UK

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
EDIT: Might as well rename this release "how dumb can we make Leviathans" at this point.
I very much doubt Leviathan Dreads factor into anything GW writes, given they're a FW unit.


Although the main 40k studio cover 40k rules for FW models now, so they should.
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Galas wrote:
And the only that makes any kind of impactull difference is Iron Hands, but even that is greatly overrated. Yay marine vehicles don't degrade now! WoW so powerfull when they have one of the worst vehicle selection of the game.


Degrade? That's not the issue. Issue is they are now so ridiculously tough. I need to spend close to 1000 pts and have all the best AT tools available to me to take out single repulsor. In comparison just 480 pts or so could take down knight with decent odds...Meanwhile vs that leviathan that 1000 pts doesn't even overcome healing rate of the leviathan so I could shoot all game vs leviathan and it literally would not die. Meanwhile it will nearly one shot one of my AT units per turn. With me literally unable to do anything to it. No tool actually has reasonable chance of succeed. I can't shoot it, I can't get into close combat reliably enough, I ca't do that with anything big enough to reliably surround it(if I don't surround it just gets out of combat after it attacks and then can shoot) and if I ignore it will rip apart units at ease. And that's just one unit.

Contemptators? I can't shoot them so they are invulnerable.

Only IH build I can do somethig about is 3 repulsor one but gearing up for that makes me suck vs non-IH armies. Fun.

And then their infantry. Park in cover and I have no efficient tool vs their W2 2+ save troops. Troop vs troop I lose shooting war big time. H2h war I lose even worse.

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/09/12/tneva82-minas-tirith-vs-isengard/ <- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Although the main 40k studio cover 40k rules for FW models now, so they should.
You are 100% right: They do cover it, and they absolutely should factor it in. But I doubt they actually do.

GW have been writing codices in a vacuum for years and years now. I don't see that MO ending anytime soon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/04 06:30:40


   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






 Galas wrote:

I dislike the supplements for all that rules bloat. But I believe that, unless theres tournament data to back it up, theres a ton of internet drama and hyperbole about them.

Something something kelermorph most OP unit ever...

But now I realized this is the news and rumours theme, not one in general discussion.


First the Kelermorph is a staple of GSC lists. He is incredibly efficient and arguably led to a buff of all Imperial assassins.

Second even at this early stage there is tournament data to back this up. Space marines have gone from roughly 5% of the field at most tournaments to 25, 30% since their codex dropped. Overnight. Their win percentage has increased and their average first loss at events has gotten way, way more favourable. This is without Ironhands who are clearly easier to play than other supplements.

Also can people stop using the bogus line 'they still die like marines!', they don't when fielded as Ironhands and this is one of the massive problems. Their damage output has skyrocketed while they have also become hyper durable. It's too much and it's lame that GW have fallen into their old trap of balance for sales sake rather than for the games sake. Codexes without v2 (everyone) are simply not on the same playing field as marines anymore who now enjoy twice the stratagems and relics of any other factions. They are also the only faction to be able to take infinite relics as of now. That doesn't mean other factions won't be able to compete at all, but their lists with have to change to suit the Marine dominated meta. Competitive players are struggling to come.up with answers to Marines without simply switching to them. That is awful game design.

If GW don't bring the other codexes up to the level of Marines, and fast, my fear is that the meta will become dominated by them and it will become very stale very quickly.
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




San Jose, CA

Poor, poor tournament players. it's just a shame that they'll have to change up their lists, whatever will they do? How will they survive in such trying times?

This is the problem with chasing the dragon.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

The increase in % of players playing SM is easily explainable by the fact that the most popular army in the game got buffed from being among the worst armies in the game. Contrary to what some people on Dakka seem to think people actually do like Marines a lot, it's not just GWs marketing making them look popular.

There's not enough data yet to make a judgment of whether the book or any given supplement is OP or not. As for the fact that the new book is doing much better than the old one: isn't that the point of buffing an army?

At least the supplements look to be able to compete with one another, so worst-case scenario is Marines have a bunch of different builds that dominate. That's still not as bad as Loyal 32 and a Knight everywhere, or Codex: Dark Reapers and Shining Spears.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/04 17:53:45


For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The increase in % of players playing SM is easily explainable by the fact that the most popular army in the game got buffed from being among the worst armies in the game. Contrary to what some people on Dakka seem to think people actually do like Marines a lot, it's not just GWs marketing making them look popular.

There's not enough data yet to make a judgment of whether the book or any given supplement is OP or not. As for the fact that the new book is doing much better than the old one: isn't that the point of buffing an army?

At least the supplements look to be able to compete with one another, so worst-case scenario is Marines have a bunch of different builds that dominate. That's still not as bad as Loyal 32 and a Knight everywhere, or Codex: Dark Reapers and Shining Spears.


God damn, imagine if Eldar jumped 25% in winrate in the weeks following a codex and someone said "no guys, Eldar are just a real popular army and people like playing them, nothing in the codex is OP!"

It's always funny watching the double standard in action.
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




San Jose, CA

the_scotsman wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The increase in % of players playing SM is easily explainable by the fact that the most popular army in the game got buffed from being among the worst armies in the game. Contrary to what some people on Dakka seem to think people actually do like Marines a lot, it's not just GWs marketing making them look popular.

There's not enough data yet to make a judgment of whether the book or any given supplement is OP or not. As for the fact that the new book is doing much better than the old one: isn't that the point of buffing an army?

At least the supplements look to be able to compete with one another, so worst-case scenario is Marines have a bunch of different builds that dominate. That's still not as bad as Loyal 32 and a Knight everywhere, or Codex: Dark Reapers and Shining Spears.


God damn, imagine if Eldar jumped 25% in winrate in the weeks following a codex and someone said "no guys, Eldar are just a real popular army and people like playing them, nothing in the codex is OP!"

It's always funny watching the double standard in action.


who cares?
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

the_scotsman wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The increase in % of players playing SM is easily explainable by the fact that the most popular army in the game got buffed from being among the worst armies in the game. Contrary to what some people on Dakka seem to think people actually do like Marines a lot, it's not just GWs marketing making them look popular.

There's not enough data yet to make a judgment of whether the book or any given supplement is OP or not. As for the fact that the new book is doing much better than the old one: isn't that the point of buffing an army?

At least the supplements look to be able to compete with one another, so worst-case scenario is Marines have a bunch of different builds that dominate. That's still not as bad as Loyal 32 and a Knight everywhere, or Codex: Dark Reapers and Shining Spears.


God damn, imagine if Eldar jumped 25% in winrate in the weeks following a codex and someone said "no guys, Eldar are just a real popular army and people like playing them, nothing in the codex is OP!"

It's always funny watching the double standard in action.
As both an Eldar player and someone who really does like Marines, it's not really a double standard as the 2 factions are hardly equal or on a level field. Both are popular, but Marines are well ahead in that popularity, even before this Codex. While Eldar have almost always been "better" in-game than Marines, most players that know their rules and general fluff either play them or play against them OFTEN. But everyone who plays 40K is fairly familiar with Marines

So when a bunch of Marine armies pop up after a new Codex, a good portion of those players probably already had armies. When a bunch of Eldar armies popped up in 7E, we all know why, and it wasn't all die-hard Eldar fluffbunnies

-

   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






The latest Signals from the Frontline goes into detail on the Ironhands issue and what it likely means for the meta.

Reece, a player much better than me or anyone else on here I'd wager, openly said that he has no reasonable answer to Ironhands flyer build. He literally called it broken. And it is. There's nothing wrong with making marines competitive, but making this broken mess only pushes players away.
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 Galef wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The increase in % of players playing SM is easily explainable by the fact that the most popular army in the game got buffed from being among the worst armies in the game. Contrary to what some people on Dakka seem to think people actually do like Marines a lot, it's not just GWs marketing making them look popular.

There's not enough data yet to make a judgment of whether the book or any given supplement is OP or not. As for the fact that the new book is doing much better than the old one: isn't that the point of buffing an army?

At least the supplements look to be able to compete with one another, so worst-case scenario is Marines have a bunch of different builds that dominate. That's still not as bad as Loyal 32 and a Knight everywhere, or Codex: Dark Reapers and Shining Spears.


God damn, imagine if Eldar jumped 25% in winrate in the weeks following a codex and someone said "no guys, Eldar are just a real popular army and people like playing them, nothing in the codex is OP!"

It's always funny watching the double standard in action.
As both an Eldar player and someone who really does like Marines, it's not really a double standard as the 2 factions are hardly equal or on a level field. Both are popular, but Marines are well ahead in that popularity, even before this Codex. While Eldar have almost always been "better" in-game than Marines, most players that know their rules and general fluff either play them or play against them OFTEN. But everyone who plays 40K is fairly familiar with Marines

So when a bunch of Marine armies pop up after a new Codex, a good portion of those players probably already had armies. When a bunch of Eldar armies popped up in 7E, we all know why, and it wasn't all die-hard Eldar fluffbunnies

-


Top tables tournament lists are not driven by love of the fluff. I agree with you that the sheer speed of these armies appearing is most likely due to almost all competitive 40k players having a bunch of marine models of the usual suspects in competitive marine lists (Razorbacks, Leviathans, the flyers from earlier in the edition, smashcaptains etc). But the REASON they show up at all is because new marines are ridiculously good, not because "oh now they're just average I'll just take my marines I love so very much like my little children, and with the power of my love for their fluff I shall win this tournament."

   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Also no one said the WINRATE increase by 25% (and honestly if the space marines win rate went from 5% to 25% that just means they went from "complete and utter near unplayable garbage" to "garbage") but the play rate went from 5% at major tournies to 25% which isn't that bad. I don't know the exact figures, and I suspect it's hard to really tell but I suspect a vast majority of 40k players have a space Marine army, even if it's just a handfull of models cobbled together from various starter sets. And many people likely got into 40k when they first saw a space Marine.
Compeitive players will do what they have to to win, absolutely, but I bet a LOT of compeitive players have a favorite army they'd ideally like to play

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/04 18:59:41


Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





An increase in people playing Space Marine armies is likely due to the fact that a lot of people already had those armies sitting on their shelves, waiting for a Codex update. Many of the batreps online have been people with older collections testing out all the new rules.

Only a handful of the batreps I've seen have a lot of primaris in them. And only one I can think of that's pure Primaris.
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






Contrary to some of your fantasies, there are plenty of players who own neither vanilla or chocolate flavoured marines. There's also plenty who don't particularly care for them.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Which is completely beside the point. There are a bunch of people who do. Everyone doesn't have to play Space Marines in order for the new Codex to massively drive the amount of people playing Marines at tournaments.

How much did the win rate increase by?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/04 21:03:33


For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






Contrary to popular belief, Marines weren't THAT bad before.

The win % went up from like 45-50 to 55-60% I think. You'll have to listen to stats centre to get the exact numbers. I can't remember them off hand.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, Marines weren't THAT bad before.

The win % went up from like 45-50 to 55-60% I think. You'll have to listen to stats centre to get the exact numbers. I can't remember them off hand.


So basicly the win rate going up most likely simply reflects that as per the other statistics there were more marine armies in the tournament, as for Reece it's not like he has not got form for talking bollocks if he thinks it will advantage him in anyway.

Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis 
   
 
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