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Just a quick contemplation for discussion here....

I've been thinking about the 'lesser' armies out there. Things like Kroot, Lost and The Damed, plain Renegade Guard, combined Chaos, all the old sublists etc.

And I cannot help but feel GW are missing a golden egg in them. Sure, it might not able to support all these forces with model ranges. As with any company they can only support a finite amount of ranges.

But the ones I mentioned above all have something in common. They are a convertors dream. Kroot, LatD, Renegades etc can all be kitbashed by those with sufficient desire to play them. The only problem could be with particularly anal tournaments etc. Thankfully, there is an extremely easy remedy for this.... Don't declare the lists as Tournament Legal.

This restricts Tournaments etc to the main lists, and have the 'lesser' forces purely, and explicitly, for friendly play. Quite aside from logisitical solutions, I feel such a distinction would be good for the hobby. More casual players will get a wider range of opponents, and the more competitively inclined don't need to worry about something coming from the left field.

This opens up all sorts of roads, such as ally units into the bargain. For example, the Tau are noted for there Xenos subjects, yet only two races appear in the Codex thusly, Kroot and Stingwinds (Vespid is the planet)

Sure, this is something we the larger community should be doing anyways, but I feel that the greater online emphasis on competitive play has stifled this somewhat. Even better, rules for older units (I dare not say the 'S' word!) etc can be included for us nutters...

So, whaddya think?

So basicly you just want the old chapter approved rules for those armies revised for the new edition? Because that's what they basically were as most tournaments didn't bother with chapter approved rules.

How about they spend some time making a small dex for each, then watch the proffit roll in from people buying large ammounts of things to convert the armies?

they wouldnt need to release any models for them, simply an official dex.

Like you mention, this is what they want us to do with the game anyway. I don't think there is any reason why you cannot use the old LATD list in friendly play (complete with selections from the old chaos marine dex). I also don't think there would be any reason that you couldn't use the chapter approved doctrines, or rules for Blood Pact from WD.

That said, it would be nice to have them all readily available and updated. However, we know that GW won't support it unless it has kits associated with it (to track how well the line does), and even though these armies are a kitbashers, and a Vet gamers dream, GW doesn't seem interested.

I've often thought about just doing my own updates to make them current, which as you mentioned, would have no weight outside of my group.

I was re-reading some of the CA books and old WDs, and I loved the odd units, special little rules, and various articles in there. So much creativity lost.

*edit* You know who has it right, the Tempus Fugitives. Check out their campaign weekend stuff. Wow, I wish I lived in the UK...

I agree with Cruentus. Best thing you can do is start getting together some collaberation on some house rules for said armies and units.

Only problem with that is most people have the absurd belief that unless it comes with gws shiny seal of approval they are some how going to suffer by using it. I would even guess that that was partly what your idea was born from as there isn't much trouble using the old rules anyway, as Cruentus said.

I can't discuss any unofficial rules with any of the people I play 40K with without them automatically blurting out "But it's not tournament legal!" as if it were some deep-seated post-hypnotic compulsion. Fortunately, they're also scheduling an Apocalypse battle in a couple of months and so I get to use my mutants and plague zombies because there are datasheets for them. I'm afraid that the game has been taken back away from the fans and made it an institution.

Yeh my point exactly, and a bit more.

I think it can be taken back but no one seems willing to bother making unoficial rules as trying to convince people is like talking to the dead in hades' underworld.

House rules are a solution for those who have the armies already. But I know I'd never build something that I couldn't use easily outside my group. Sometimes you want to play against some new faces, and frankly I think handing someone your homemade codex the first time you meet them is bad form. Counts-as works, of course. But then you're not really doing something completely different so much as building a Codex: X army, just with different models.

I think a book of variant lists would be a positive step. And, knowing that players parse GW's words, they could declare that "these lists are not valid for Grand Tournament play, but are balanced for use for normal games. For other tournaments, check with your tournament organizer."

That might melt some of the resistance on the player side. Of course, the problem is that GW designers break out in HIVES even thinking about becoming arbiters of officialdom. Even though GW has helped develop that attitude in its customers.

I think that you should play more small Apocalypse-style games in which you aren't a slave to whatever the current Codex might be.

Then, you field what you want and just have some fun.

It's all legal in APOC! Woot!

GW isn't going to make a codex without boxes and blisters of minis to go with it. That's just their business model.

The 'lesser forces' will get relegated to APOC. That way, the company isn't 'invalidating' your minis, you can still use them - but only in a unique setting and then GW doesn't have to worry about getting the rules balanced.

Look at it this way, at least they didn't get squatted!

gorgon wrote:House rules are a solution for those who have the armies already. But I know I'd never build something that I couldn't use easily outside my group. Sometimes you want to play against some new faces, and frankly I think handing someone your homemade codex the first time you meet them is bad form.

But that's the attitude which devalues non GW made rules in the first place. If people would overcome their belief that non gw endorsed stuff isn't worth their time home made rules would become a lot better. Your only going to get it to work by trying it out. The best way for it to work is to test them out, if they're any good share them, we have the internet these days how on earth can that be wasted. I could imagine a time where somebody would be happy for someone to use certain rules because it has the dakka (for example) approval. But things like that don't happen when people are still sucking off JJ and whatever overpriced bs GW are deciding to shove down their neck.

The only real example I have seen of people doing anything like that are (what is left of) Inquisitor players, new addition rulebooks, supplements, character types all player created and published on the web. Unfortunately it took the demise of said game in the eyes of GW for that to happen.

It's not a very good thing when Dawn of war, a video game of 40k, has a a better development community than 40k itself.

please tell me if i have this right, but kroot merc's in apoc?
ok, they suck at killing anything armoured, but i now have a reason to build a merc army and i can use em XD

JD21290 wrote:How about they spend some time making a small dex for each, then watch the proffit roll in from people buying large ammounts of things to convert the armies?

they wouldnt need to release any models for them, simply an official dex.

I love this idea, and would be the first total sucker to go for it. Anything to stimulate creativity in gamers is fantastic in my eyes.

If they did say that some lists were not tournament legal, it would in a backwards way say that 40K is a tournament game and not just a friendly game between friends. Last I heard from these boards was that GW was trying to say that 40K isn't designed with tournaments in mind, so giving the implication that tournaments are part of the design plan might be something they want to avoid.

GW should give word on this being legal, they could seriously proffit from this

my 1st order would be along the lines of:

6 cold one box sets (to make 30 trackers)
loads of harpy wings (vultures)
15 - 20 box sets of kroot (troops + randoms)

then i would order like mad from forgeworld

JD21290 wrote:GW should give word on this being legal, they could seriously proffit from this

as could you if you just went ahead with it instead of looking to gw like a slave asking permission to piss.

whatwhat, i dont really give a gak about GW's permission, just wanted to make sure it will get some use.
i dont feel like throwing away over a grand on something i wont be able to use often.

I'm just backing up my earlier point.

yea i know mate, but i wanna spend to use
same reason ive not brought any lizzy men yet, waiting on armies book :K

just dont see the point in spending alot of money, then getting 2 or 3 games with it before i throw it on ebay at 1/3 of the price.

If I turned up to game with a fully converted kroot army and someone told me no, I'd have to confiscate half his army as tax for being a gakker.

whatwhat wrote:

JD21290 wrote:GW should give word on this being legal, they could seriously proffit from this

as could you if you just went ahead with it instead of looking to gw like a slave asking permission to piss.

Or he could be worried about ever getting to play the damn thing. Why don't you stop with the pointless nerd rage at something you can't change. Yes, a home made codex could be cool. However, most home made crap is just that: crap. The vast majority of them are over powered and fanboyish with no playtesting or just some "playtesting" amongst the little pond of their mom's basement.

We're not GW whipping boys for wanting to play legal lists, we just tend to actually have experience on what a home made codex tends to look like. When you get into the real world, you'll be able to see this.

Also, we know the GW lists are relatively balanced and fun for both sides, unlike most home made codecii.

just an example here, but i spent out a few hundred making a kroot merc army a while back when it was 1st released, which was great, had a good laugh with it, even though its pretty unbalanced and weak, but now its not even accepted as an army in the local GW.

so rather than throwing money away i wanna make sure i can use it 1st.

Already possible as Apoc- formations


You wanna use them in a normal game? Not much stopping you- I played a kroot player recently (and an emp's children one) who just took the apoc formation's options and points and fielded it as a normal 1500pt army- worked a charm


I think this is the direction GW is moving towards- its a casual list that is "legit" for apoc. and if your opponent will let you use a "non-tourney legal chapter approved army" how is that different from just using the stats laid down in an official apoc. formation?

Platuan4th wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

JD21290 wrote:GW should give word on this being legal, they could seriously proffit from this

as could you if you just went ahead with it instead of looking to gw like a slave asking permission to piss.

Or he could be worried about ever getting to play the damn thing. Why don't you stop with the pointless nerd rage at something you can't change. Yes, a home made codex could be cool. However, most home made crap is just that: crap. The vast majority of them are over powered and fanboyish with no playtesting or just some "playtesting" amongst the little pond of their mom's basement.

We're not GW whipping boys for wanting to play legal lists, we just tend to actually have experience on what a home made codex tends to look like. When you get into the real world, you'll be able to see this.

Also, we know the GW lists are relatively balanced and fun for both sides, unlike most home made codecii.

Actually if the atittude changed home made rules would become better as I have explained before, due to more input.

Don't assume I know nothing about what I'm talking about. I remember and still know of other games, where house rules wre part and parcel of the hobby. Games always had problems so you agreed on a rule to solve certain arguments, and os on. Obviously with todays prices people have a right to complain about such a matter directly with the producer, but that doesn't mean the spirit of the hobby had to go with it.

Perhaps you'd like to entertain living under a fascist government for a while, if your so into living by rules which you by no means need to follow. Your attitude and closed mindedness is exactly why people like me don't bother with the game anymore.

JD21290 wrote:please tell me if i have this right, but kroot merc's in apoc?
ok, they suck at killing anything armoured, but i now have a reason to build a merc army and i can use em XD

The point is that you can play them, along with any other wierd stuff. Not that they're all-conquering.

JD21290 wrote:just wanted to make sure it will get some use.
i dont feel like throwing away over a grand on something i wont be able to use often.

If you really want to be sure it'll play, play Spaz Marinz or some other Codex army. Otherwise, play what you like.

If you're in a casual environment, and bringing Kroot Mercs with the CA list, thre shouldn't be any problems.

DD, only place they could be used in the end was LGS, so i ended up throwing em on ebay.


as for now, ill possibly start putting together a few k points of them while i get my orks sorted out.
orks have all my time atm thanks to new projects.

whatwhat wrote:

Actually if the atittude changed home made rules would become better as I have explained before, due to more input.

Don't assume I know nothing about what I'm talking about. I remember and still know of other games, where house rules wre part and parcel of the hobby. Games always had problems so you agreed on a rule to solve certain arguments, and os on. Obviously with todays prices people have a right to complain about such a matter directly with the producer, but that doesn't mean the spirit of the hobby had to go with it.

Perhaps you'd like to entertain living under a fascist government for a while, if your so into living by rules which you by no means need to follow. Your attitude and closed mindedness is exactly why people like me don't bother with the game anymore.

If you like playing home grown lists, why don't you go play Warhammer Ancients? They heartily encourage home grown lists.

Of course, every home grown list I've seen and played against in Warhammer Ancients suffers from the same problems you claim don't exist when home grown lists are allowed, so what do I know.

Also, since when did House Rules = Home Grown Lists? If you don't want me to assume anything, don't sound like you don't know.

Please don't compare GW or me to fascists. And if you're so convinced I'm close minded, then you obviously neither know me nor do you read the Necromunda/Skirmish games forums here on Dakka where I have several home grown lists and add ons to the game, not to mention the several Apocalypse-only lists and datasheets I've helped write for my former FLGS.

Either way I'm out, as you entirely missed the point of my last post(he can't use it at GW stores/events or against people who only play against "legal" lists).

Platuan4th wrote:
If you like playing home grown lists, why don't you go play Warhammer Ancients? They heartily encourage home grown lists.

Of course, every home grown list I've seen and played against in Warhammer Ancients suffers from the same problems you claim don't exist when home grown lists are allowed, so what do I know.

Also, since when did House Rules = Home Grown Lists? If you don't want me to assume anything, don't sound like you don't know.

Please don't compare GW or me to fascists. And if you're so convinced I'm close minded, then you obviously neither know me nor do you read the Necromunda/Skirmish games forums here on Dakka where I have several home grown lists and add ons to the game, not to mention the several Apocalypse-only lists and datasheets I've helped write for my former FLGS.

To answer you...

1. I already do play other games.

2. I didn't claim there wasn't problems with homegrown lists. I said with more input and less of the "homegrown lists are crap attitude" from the 40k community they would be a lot better.

3. House rules, home grown armies. A continuation of the same principle, player interpretation.

4. You blatently are closed minded as you just dismissed home grown lists as crap and suggested no positives in the idea whatsoever.

5. i did mention games such as inquisitor who do have a very good user created rules set up, I am very aware of the inqusitormunda movement here, it just doesn't catch my interest that much.

What exactly is your problem with the points I have brought up?

Platuan4th wrote:Either way I'm out, as you entirely missed the point of my last post(he can't use it at GW stores/events or against people who only play against "legal" lists).

Most of your last post wasn't even concerning my comments to JD21290. So no I haven't. Maybe you have.

OK, you two - get a room!

And on that note, I take my leave.

Moral to the story is, if you don't want to be confused for a closed minded GW suck up who sees no value in house rules and home brewd armies, dont post things like this.

Platuan4th wrote:Why don't you stop with the pointless nerd rage at something you can't change. Yes, a home made codex could be cool. However, most home made crap is just that: crap. The vast majority of them are over powered and fanboyish with no playtesting or just some "playtesting" amongst the little pond of their mom's basement.

brrrrap