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That's mostly what I'm up against. So what are some of the best methods to silence the servants of the Corpse God?

Defilers.

As always, the answer is Lash!

Just kidding (kinda). Actually, a strategy I've been contemplating is outflanking Chosen in a Rhino with 4 or 5 meltaguns. You should be able to take care of some tanks which I seem to have more problems with than the actual infantry.

Okay, but what about IG heavy weapon squads?

Defilers. Again. They eat any IG anywhere, whether it be CC or at range (the latter is a helluva lot more fun).

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:Defilers. Again. They eat any IG anywhere, whether it be CC or at range (the latter is a helluva lot more fun).

That's good, I love the models too so that should work out nicely.

Mega Daemon-bomb. Take lots of squads of Lesser Daemons. No worries about losing the kill points game, and much less worry about no being able to kill the enemy fast enough.

Everyone has good to great suggestions. Just know, though, that a Defiler will live approximately 1 to 1.5 turns in a game against IG, as their heavy weapons will go through them like a hot knife through butter.

Eric

Plague Marines make most guard weapons bounce off, Lash can make a mockery of gunlines, Rhino rush against guard still works to a good degree.

The best bet is to find the best way to deliver your HtH against a guard army and do watch it slowly wittle away.

You won't beat them in a shooting contest, I'd suggest using mobility combined with cheap combat units (just good enough to cut through guardsman, which doesn't take much) and toss in a healthy amount of meltaguns to take care of armor and try to aim for the flanks.

Defilers seem silly because of the sickening amount of lascannons/ordnance that is usually found in guard lists, and besides that do you really think points spent on something that is half combat monster is a little unnecessary?

Lash also seems silly because guardsman is usually make up of tons of little, cheap units, so it's not like you're doing all that much by bring guardsman closer to you, they're gonna die anyway and theres 20 more squads behind them to keep dumping shots into you.

You gotta watch plaguemarines, a lot of guard weaponry is going to ignore their FnP save. They also have to do a lot of moving to get close enough to outshoot guardsman.

My buddy plays guard. I can't outshoot him and get shelled walking up to him, even though I'm Nurgle devout. When you can't do one, do all of them at once. I've found that infiltrating Chosen, going to ground and waiting for a Greater Daemon and lessers show up tends to work well. I put a 20 man squad of CSM with nothing but an Icon of Nurgle between my Plague Marines (and the rest of my army) and him. Throwing a Rhino or two (I take 1 and just pop smoke the turn before I hit his lines) of Possessed or whatever melee unit at another flank all at the same time means that SOMETHING is going to get through and pummel him.

2 lash 3 plague squads 9 oblits? what doesn't it work against?

Honestly, flamers against the infantry, oblits or infiltrating chosen with meltas to take care of the tanks. Plague have awesome staying power, and can survive even the pounding of 3 russes if you put them in cover (I give 1 melta and 1 flamer). Remember, guard have low leadership, you don't have to kill them all, you just have to make them run.

Massed bikes can do well, as long as you turbo boost every turn until you hit HtH.

As has been said: flamers. Anything with a template will do well.

Oblits are good for targeting armor, as are Havocs (I like undifided, for the Ld reroll.

Vindicators can do well, provided they survive.

Unmarked CSM with Rhinos outflanking into his lines = pants peeing Guardsmen.


Eric

Theres my 2 cents:
-Deep striking lesser daemons are good to surprise and tie up [and god forbid kill some]
-Vindicators are good
-Havoks with 4 Heavy Bolters of Autocannons are good plus rhino transport for mobility is great
-Chosen chaos marines infiltrating with flamers is good

So I'll need Daemons, Plague Marines (that'll be unfluffy as my army worships Tzeentch), Defilers and Meltaguns.

Personally I'm quite liking the Obliterator idea.

You don't NEED Plague Marines. TS work too, as they don't need to stick to cover. Your T4 3+sv will work well enough against Lasguns. Daemons can be rather Tzeentchy, and I do suggest taking a squad or two for counter assaults (a weakness of Tzeentch purists it seems). Oblits work wonders though. Out of tanks to shoot? Blast the infantry with Plascannons!

The only problem with Obliterators is that they're fragile. Not fragile in the sense that a Guardsman is fragile, but in the sense that they are very expensive, and die like little bitches when someone waves a Power Weapon in their direction. They're useless in close combat even with their Power Fists.

Well, that's why like any other heavy wep squad you just stick them on an area terrain hill and soak up the cover saves. You can have them footslog it behind your marines, so that is another option. Deepstriking them is yet another option, though a bad one against guard. Terminator Armor with two wounds isn't ever fragile, and deployed correctly you should never have to worry about power-wep melee from Guard.

Cover saves don't work for Power Weapons, and you should worry about them where a Guard player knows his Rough Riders. Deep Strike puts them out of the game for 1-4 turns, and risks mishaps unless your army is based around Icons.

Also, you completely missed the point that fragility depends on the amount of points sunk into a unit, as well as their ability to resist damage. You can get two Terminators with Combi-Weapons for the price of one Obliterators, and they'll have the same number of wounds, twice the attacks, and won't suffer from Instant Death when a Lascannon wounds them. They're more fragile than their weight in Terminators.

Alright, you have me there. Still, 'fragile' sends the wrong message I feel.
To counter Rough Riders is easy enough though. Just blast them into the ground before they get to you, heh. Plasma Cannon HOOOOO!

Vindicators for template
Anything that can deep strike, especially heavy flamer termies and lolspam oblits.
Bikers/wings/Jump Packs/Mounts to close in fast

Try to give them lots of targets in different places so one squad/vehicle doesn't get focus-fired to death.

Oh, a tzeentch list, cool. How many points are you typically playing?

Doesn't matter, Mark of Tzeentch gives you (limited) immunity to all the many lascannons and battlecannons you'll be facing, take advantage of that and ADVANCE! Seriously, your 1000 Sons should be advancing every turn, taking full advantage of the relentless ability granted by their slow and purposeful and mowing down his troops, starting with heavy weapons squads and rough riders first. You should be working your way int assult range (Thousand Sons are still space marines, and thus better than guard in assults, plus they can rapid fire the same turn they assault!) Meltabombs on your asp. sorcerers are cheap anti-tank insurance.

But you'll need some anti-tank, either from your heavy support, or from you elites, or both! I would recommend against any Armour, given guard's usual mass amount of anti-tank(leman russes, sentinels, heavy weapon squads ect), and go more towards obliteraters, havocs with icon of tzeentch. You can set havocs up anywhere thanks to the 5+ invul, and either go anti tank with missile and lascannon, or ani-infanty with heavy bolters. If you take havos AND oblits, set the havocs up for the anit-infantry, as the oblits pack all the anti-tank you need.

For elites I would recommend chosen or terminators over possessed. Chosen can represent all of the 1000 Sons who were heavily mutated before the Rubic of Ahriman. (Remember, tzeench favors shooting over close combat, so a shooty elite fits better with the fluff than a choppy elite) Chosen's infiltrate skill with icon of tzentzh can work well with several other parts of the chaos army. Daemons and terminators can be summoned closer to the enemy lines. Take termis with combi-meltas and powerfists to go tank hunting, or daemons/termis with combi-flamers and heavy flamer to go infantry hunting. Icon of Tzeentch on the termis gives a 4+ invul, so you shouldn't worry too much about that turn of shooting at them when they deepstrike. I would equip the chosen with the special weapons, a power weapon and a powerfist or melta bombs. They should be advancing towards the enemy, so don't give them a heavy weapon. Remember, the chosen are that much closer to the tanks to get the bonus penetration on the meltas or tons of flamer hits, plus the 5+invul save to survive the heavier weapons, just take a larger squad so you can allocate a few wounds. Or the chosen could outflank, depending on the mission of your opponents setup.

The hardest part about guard isn't killing them, it's killing ALL of them, but that's their trick. Don't let their numbers intimidate you, you DON"T have to kill all of them, just the right ones. Troops; they are the scoring units. Leman Russes, heavy weapon squads, and rough riders; they will cause you the most problems/inflict the most casualties.

You do have to kill us all, or we'll kill YOU!! After we run away and regroup.

I usually play against SM, which are somewhat alike to CSM in terms of tactics.

Usually what gets me is terminators deepstriking next to my heavies and taking them out while the assault marines and tactical marines tear my infantry apart.

The thing I hate to hear is that IG have low morale, while this may be true, we usually boost our morale with doctrines or voxes. I have Ld 9 guardsmen. Also, I gave my officers Iron discipline so they ignore the 25% morale reduction and can regroup even if they're below 50%.

I also have Initiative 4 guardsmen thanks to close order drill.

Watch out for ordnance by placing your men UNDER cover as much as possible. Most IG players have 3 ordnance weapons at least. The cover save also prevents lascannons and AP3 weapons from annihilating your men.

Oh thanks, that's what I need, I need to hear from the other side.

These are all good ideas guys, thanks.

You know, I probably should not of had told you that.

Ah, but he is playing Tzeentch marines. They walk around wiht a 4+ invulnerable, so cover really doesn't matter.
Yes, morale is an issue that guard can cover up very easily, and in cover they should have a 3+ save. You're priority should be killing tanks and anything BUT Guardsmen as they aren't putting out much damage and take more effort to kill once they dig in (4+ cover, +1 for Cameoline, +1 for going to ground. Congrats 2+ cover save guardsmen).
You've best bet may be grabbing some Combi-Melta Terminators with an Icon of Tzeentch. Now they are 2+ 4++, which is brutal. Show up, pop a tank, then waid your way to next next one and Chainfist it.

That 2+ save is good though, I played against a 10,000pt DA army and had a squad of ratlings with 2+ cover eat up 5 termy squads, 2 Land Raiders with assault cannons, and several tactical squads only to lose 4 of my ratlings.So for example if I have 3 squads of 10 ratlings, I have 30 snipers that infiltrate into 3+ cover and get +1 to that cover automatically, I hate cameleoline, everyone else loves it for some reason.

Unless he takes noise marines, then in close combat they go simul, as noise marines are I 5, and CSM are I4. So I can put in a vet sgt with power weapons. I also have rapid fire and range until they get close, if I have carapace armor, then I also have a 4+ save.

I also have 100 guardsmen with two troop choices, which I can place well enough that deepstriking in range of my tanks is impossible without them having to take a roll for mishaps. 100 guardsmen is also a pretty decent wall, if I want I can get up to 200 guardsmen and make an even better wall. With this wall in place I can then put hellhounds, sentinels, or HW teams behind them. This may give a 4+ cover save, but this is nothing if they already have a 4+ invuln save.
BTW my hellhounds have a 24" range template so the cover doesn't matter.

That invuln is good, but I've seen better (doom marines 3+ invuln). Which would you rather do, stay in cover and not worry about ordnance, or to take a save that you have a 50% chance of failing?

IG also have flanking units that don't need to roll for deepstrike. I usually have a chimera loaded with stormtroopers and two meltas sneak behind the enemy to take out their vehicles.

Schaeffer can allow kage and up to 14 last chancers, which can be 14 specialists and then 14 meltas, 14 snipers, 14 plasma guns,etc. all fearless and with infiltrate.
These are all options that I have, and once the new IG dex comes out I may get a template with AP3 and wounds on a 2+. A tank with 5 plasma cannons is also coming up and a tank with AP- 20 shots.

I don't understand how staying in cover with a 4+ save is better than being out of cover with the same save?

And when you say you can take 100 guardsmen with two troops choices I assume you're talking about Conscripts. They will die by in the dozens to any templates as they are hard to squeze into cover. If you're opponent takes that you just run into melee combat with the conscripts and eat them, heh. They put up as much of a fight as Fire Warriors.

Everyone has flanking units that don't roll for deepstrike and on that note I suggest Chosen with Meltas if you have points or are having particular problems with tanks hiding in the back.

Just take 2 Lash and Rhino rush.

That is a method I'd hope we'd avoid. It is just so painfully boring.