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Exactly what it says. Fzorgle has been killed off by people finally figuring out Mech is gewd, and I think the fact that there isn't nearly as many Fzorgle lists for 'Ard Boyz floating around shows this. What do you think? Is Fzorgle a strong contender anymore?

Your argument is hinged on Lash being the only way Chaos can be tier one, which is certainly not the case.

I know that, you know that, but they don't know that. Alright, so the question is "is LASH down to T2?"

Yaaagh.

The Lash of Submission has always been an over-rated psychic power. Reality has finally filtered down to the intarwebz. We can only hope that Chaos Space Marine players will start experimenting with their lists, rather than abandoning them, or hopping on the next band-wagon list.

Deleted the Chaos is T1 option, as was screwing with the poll.

I don't think you'll see the psychic power going anywhere soon but the army that's built around it should change significantly. I'd imagine that chaos is probably meching up with everyone else which means (to me) that you'll see more sorcerors hitching rides with squads and fzorgling squads off objectives and into nice template/rapid fire formations.

I think Lash still has it's place, even in competitive lists, but not as an army crutch. The highly underrated power of Warp Time, should be looked at for Tier One Chaos.

Warptime is under-rated? Seriously? Isn't that the power that people insist on taking with Nurgle Marked Daemon Princes? That power is incredible, and combines well with nearly everything. It turns Huron Blackheart from a mediocre character to something inhumanly evil.

The other powers are worth taking a good gander at as well, particularly Gift of Chaos (since it can be used multiple times), and Nurgle's Rot.

Oh dear, I forgot all about re-rolling heavy flamers.

I run a single lash army and have tabled most players that I play even the mech ones and when I do table them I have also gotten all of the objectives on the board. Double Lash is dead IMO becaus it realizes on it too much. But a balanced army with a Nurgle Warptime and a Lash Prince is still good IMO.

Re-rolling to wound with a Heavy Flamethrower, and then rolling in to re-roll hits and wounds with either a Power Weapon, or a Power Fist.

Then there's the combination on a Sorcerer, such as with a Wind of Chaos, Bolt of Change, a Doombolt, a Plasma Pistol, or a Combi-Weapon. In combination with a Force Weapon you have something like a Power Fist that goes at I5 with four attacks, five on the charge, six on the charge with a Disc.

An Aspiring Sorcerer with Warptime is nasty, and fairly decently priced by comparison to an effective Aspiring Champion, since he can use Warptime and his Force Weapon in the same turn, while an Aspiring Sorcerer with Gift of Chaos is almost ideal for murdering nasty characters and Monstrous Creatures.

Aspiring Champion
w/Power Fist, Combi-Melta
A3 on the charge, S8, I1, Power Weapon, ~65pts

Aspiring Sorcerer
w/Warptime
A4 on the charge, S4, I4, Power Weapon, re-rolls to hit and to wound, Force Weapon power, 4+ Invulnerable Save, Fearless, ~85pts

What keeps Chaos competitive is their basic Marine being so good. Gun, pistol, close combat weapon, pay 10 pts and can reroll failed leadership 9, 2 special weapons (melta guns ::coff coff: and a Rhino with a Havoc Launcher.

185-210 points of very durable all-rounder goodness.

Much like the Ork codex, it's a very solid foundation to build off of. Unlike the Ork codex, it really doesn't have any problems with AV14.

Then you add in Plague Marines for extra survivability, Oblits, cheap-as-dirt Terminators with reasonably costed upgrade options, and Daemon Princes, and you can create a very solid list.

Is it T1? I have no idea, but I don't really believe in tiers, either. Is this a relatively easy list to play/win with? I think so. Close range firepower, mechanized durability, mobility via deep strike that doesn't scatter, and competent in the assault.

I can easily make a Chaos list that will counter everything in the Ork codex, so if that's what we benchmark 'Tier 1' lists against, then it's looking pretty good.

Likewise the same list (Rhino Marines, Oblits, Termicides, DPs) should be at least viable versus Imperial Guard. If the same list can go up against the Ork dex and Guard dex and come out 'okay', then I think it's better off than some.

I do not think, however, that we will see any "creative re-tooling" of the typical Chaos Marine list simply because the best units in the codex are the best units, with or without Lash. Possessed Marines did not suddenly become undercosted, Summoned Daemons have their uses but nobody is going to be dropping Oblits to fit them in, and Thousand Sons still don't ignore cover.

The debate between Nurgle Princes or Lash Princes has been a fierce one with me lately. As I have the models to run either option, but seems every day I change my mind.

At the moment I'm leaning toward Nurgle.

In the current metagame, that being one that is heavily mechanized, there are many lists where lash is going to be relatively useless. There may be 1 or 2 units of infantry out of vehicle, and the utility in that scenario just isn't there for the Lash. Nurgle princes with warptime will always have a role, whether you are playing mech or not. If a warptime prince gets to a vehicle its a dead vehicle a very high portion of the time. With the Lash prince you aren't getting the same statistical probability that the vehicle is going to be kaput.

Obviously we know the merits of Lash against a non-mech army, but even then the Nurgle prince w/ warptime is still kicking ass in assault and able to crack vehicles more often.

Well, if you're inclined to take Daemon Princes, that is a bit of a conundrum. My experience is that Daemon Princes are big targets that tend to get shot to death, sometimes even before they manage to annihilate a unit.

At least with a Sorcerer or a Chaos Lord they can join a unit and hide from incoming heavy weapons. Even with T6, an Invulnerable save, and Eternal Warrior they succumb to fire really easily.

Are the top tier lash armies taking sorcerers over princes?

Usually when I see results it will just say double lash and nothing about prince or sorc.

The complementary problem to taking Daemon Princes with the Lash of Submission, where they're big exposed targets, is taking a Sorcerer with the Lash of Submission and being required to use it against the same unit his accompanying unit has joined. Not really a problem is you know how to use Possessed, but so many people don't know how to use Possessed that it taints the Lash of Submission for people that have the Sorcerer join a unit with its own indigenous shooting ability and then finds the combination less than effective.

Chaos Mech is disgusting and anyone who has been on the recieiving end of it knows this. Rhino Rush with Chaos is just as disgusting as your basic marine has 2 attacks base +1 if you want to get happy with Khorne. Everyone goes nuts over Obliterators and they are incredibly awesome but Chaos Havocs are disgusting and I hate playing against them.

What configuration of Havocs? 5-Flamer Rhino Havocs as they fit into Mech Chaos certainly has potential, but as stand-alone heavy weapons I don't see much point to Havocs vs. Oblits beyond the ability to tote an autocannon.

Havocs aren't for heavy weapons. We have Obliterators for that. You get 5 Melta Havocs with Icon of Khorne and a Powerfist if you want to be a real jerk.

Hollismason wrote:Chaos Mech is disgusting and anyone who has been on the recieiving end of it knows this. Rhino Rush with Chaos is just as disgusting as your basic marine has 2 attacks base +1 if you want to get happy with Khorne. Everyone goes nuts over Obliterators and they are incredibly awesome but Chaos Havocs are disgusting and I hate playing against them.

I'd have to agree with you. Obliterators are great until they get their hash settled in close combat, not to mention they're Plasma-bait.

Er, Havocs are vulnerable to all of those things as well. They're actually more vulnerable to volume of fire as the heavy weapons (that cost ridiculous amounts of points) start getting plinked.

There's a reason people take Oblits ALLTHETIMEOMG. If Havocs were really comparable then you'd see everybody taking them instead.

I don't see as many Chaos armies of late, but when I do face them, Chaos armies have been rock hard. As previously mentioned, the basic Chaos Marine unit is a good buy as well as Termies with combi weapons. Throw in some Plague Marines for resilient objective holders and you have a very solid assortment of Troop choices. I like Obliterators as Heavy Support, but have seen Land Raiders do ok in a pinch.

All in all, I believe there are some great builds in the Chaos, but there has been a lot of consternation comparing this codex with its predecessor. This has led to a decline in the number of Chaos armies being played.

I believe you will see less and less Lash lists as the number of fully mechanized lists goes up.

It's not that Lash isn't good, it's just that everyone is very active about countering it now. Also landraiders, damn landraiders. AV 14 is hard for anyone to deal with, even oblits now. As terrain gets updated it's going to become harder and harder for them to perform like they once did.

Not to mention the Daemonic Possession upgrade makes Chaos Land Raiders evil assault tanks, as well as an effective fire support unit. Twin-linked counters the reduced BS, while the lack of Stunned and Shaken results means you can depend on its weapons being more available.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Defilers yet as a reason why Chaos Space Marines are competitive. The combination of their Battlecannon, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons, and Fleet makes them really nasty and versatile. Something people need to remember is using their Smoke Launchers though, which are really vital to surviving the turn after an assault.

Because Defilers get squashed by other walkers/MCs, being I3; are relegated primarily to anti-infantry shooting, which Chaos already has lots of; and compete with Oblits on the FOC.

If Defilers were an Elite, we'd see them a lot more. Chaos doesn't have problems with anti-troop CC, which is where the Defiler excels (1 battlecannon shot does not make a firebase), Chaos needs long range and variable support fire, which is exactly what the Obliterator provides.


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Sarigar wrote:I don't see as many Chaos armies of late, but when I do face them, Chaos armies have been rock hard.

Agreed. Lash used to be "so good" that it could make up for taking a softer list. Now that it's not a game-winner by itself all the soft elements are getting cut out.

Plague marines are still awesome troops too, if a little expensive.

Plague Marines are awesome until they face massed Plasma weapons, Power Weapons, and Dreadnoughts, all the same stuff that makes eating Obliterators easy. Then they go squit like a pimple, because they cost 50% more per wound than Chaos Space Marines. That cost really hurts them at times, though certainly they do well enough when an opponent isn't prepared for them.

Everything dies a horrible death to massed plasma, power weapons, and dreadnoughts.

I think chaos are a really strong codex very versital and hard hitting. Beserkers in a LR will eat everything in sight and Plague Marines eat all insight. I had a Plague Army for a while That was bout 8-1-1 it just beat everything into a pulp.

Don't ever underestimate a chaos army of any kind cuz you'll be in for a hell of a surprise.

And the preparation for a CSM list with two lashes, maxed out oblits in heavies, and Plague Marines is why CSMs aren't as good as they used to be. People are no longer not expecting to see them. Also the prevalence of AV 14 and mech lists in general has made the weapons that kill Oblits (insta-death) and PMs a lot more common.