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I am interested in maybe getting into 40 K after reading the Horus Heresy books and watching folks play a bit at the FLGS. My question to you is what group do you think would suit my style of play the best?

I like to engage at range using firepower and large caliber support. (Basicly defeat a point target with weight of fires at range.)

I like quality over mass in troops.

Attack or defense is not a big concern but mobility, (able to go into bad going to get to places the other side dosent expect), is not a must but a strong consideration.

I am not wanting to start today but am looking forward to learning more before I start asking specific questions.

Thanks in advance.

ORKS IZ DA BEST!

Welcome to MoneyPit 40k!

I've not played, or even faced, all the main armies yet. I'd suggest:
Big Gunz: Imperial Guard. Or Marines. Or Tau (?).
Elite troopers: Eldar? Marines! Chaos Marines.
Mobility: Eldar. Tau do skimmers?

Have a good read over some of the taktiks articles, and army lists here, and you might get an idea of how different lists work. Often Armies can field different types of list.
e.g. Orks have these available:
Green Tide (lots of boyz)
Kult of Speed (Boyz in speedy trukks) - also BikerBlitz
DreddBash (Lots of Dreads and Killa kans)
DakkaDakka! (Lootas, shooty-boyz, Big Gunz)
and, as the adverts say, many many more
Just because an army is known for one type of thing, doesn't mean they can't do anything else, or that other armies can't do that thing

If you've arrived from the HH books, then maybe you'd enjoy Marines, Traitor-Evil-Spikey-Marines, or Inquisition/DeamonHunters?
Marines have access to Power Armour, Artillery/HeavyWeapons, Terminators, transport vehicles and heavy tanks, so this would fulfil most of your ideas

Whichever you choose, let us know, and show us your lists/models

Tau are an army built around just shooting and mobility. Though Tau aren't the easiest army to win with at tournaments. Tau's rail guns are great for shooting down heavy armor, Tau SMS can be fired indirectly without LOS, tau powered armor can be outfitted with just about any type of ranged weapon, tau infantry have great long range high strength rifles. Tau tanks and transports all have lots of fire power and mobility.

Though Tau have no real reliable close combat answer. The Tau infantry will go down like flies in CC. Tau takes some skill to use effectively. They favor hit and run tactics, using stealth and firing behind cover.

The key to using Tau is understanding how to effectively use their marker lights. Marker lights are targeting beacons that the Tau use to greatly improve their shooting.

If you want an army that's easier to pick up and play competitively then IG or SM would probably be better armies. SM being the better choice for you since all the marines are more or less elite. Also marines are the standard army for 40k and are probably the best place for a beginner to start. They can be configured to use the tactics you described. Tyranids and Orks favor outnumbering the enemy with lots of troops so those two probably aren't what you want.

What Blackspire says is correct. Most armies can be configured to fit any play style. For the Orks he listed a mass infantry list, a fast assaulting vehicle list, a sea of ranged weapons list, and a heavy armored attack list. Ork's are considered a horde army in the sense that their basic infantry unit (the boyz) are cheap and effective fighters, and can be fielded in huge blocks (30 models per troop choice to a max of 6 troop choices...that be alot of orks). Therefore one of the most effective strategies is to use this feature to your advantage by greatly out numbering your foes, but you can still tool the ork army list up alot of ways and be effective.

Eldar or Tau would be my sugestions......let me explain why

Eldar
Pros-
Units are VERY Specialized.....whatever you do, you do it better than anyone else. Best snipers, best CC, best psychic powers ect
Vehicles are very fast and very hard to kill, second only to Landraiders. They are also skimmers so you can go anywere you want.
Eldar can bring slowed levels of AP2/3 or St-6 firepower and most units shoot pretty well.
many units to choose from.....good and bad in a way

Cons-
almost always outnumberd
glass jaw...... you can dish out way more than you can take
Transports are expensive

Tau
pros-
Troops have the best basic gun in the game
best anti-tank guns in the game
Crisis Suits are always tough and VERY mobile.
most units can be outfitted for any need
Markerlights are almost like cheating

Cons-
Glass jaw....same as Eldar
little variety, you will field many of the same units from game to game expect to be slighty predictable
Transports are not fast even if they are skimmers
Many games reduce you to sitting and shooting if you are unfamiliar with your army

Tau are my bet for you. Eldar require a mix of close combat supported by range, and really can't do range without counter-charge support units. Tau have no counter charge support units, and infact they have no assault units what so ever. They do have unrivalled mobility for the firepower they put out. They have elite battlesuits that can be specialized to fill in gaps in your army. Their infantry are somewhat lack-luster, despite having powerful weapons and fair armor their accuracy is poor for what you pay for, and they have problems with morale that aren't easily solved. Most people take small squads in "transports" that are more armed and armored than most enemy battletanks for the cost.

There are two strategiesin the fluff, the one I think you'd play is called 'Mont'ka' or 'the killing-blow.' It focusses on using huge firepower on to hit just the right targets while remaining mobile. The other strategy is Kauyon, or 'the patient hunter.' It basically uses cheap auxillary units to set up for an refused flank or ambush. They are very difficult to pull off effectively, and you'll lose many games before you start to really grasp what you need to do.

If you like firepower, I would recommend Imperial Guard. Tau are great at shooting, but suffer from the issues mentioned above. IG can outshoot just about anyone at all ranges and still have a fair amount of mobility. They also have the option of counter-assault units such as (lol) Ogryn, Straken blobs, or DH/WH allies, an option Tau don't have at all.

However, with the newest Codex, IG is kinda FotM. Just another option to think about, though.

I wouldn't recommend IG, because no matter how you slice it, they are an army of billions of flesh bags who's only job is to stand between the enemy guns and their tanks. No quality in their troops, just redundancy and quantity. Still a hugely powerful army, just not "elite" like the OP wanted.

Ah... missed that portion. I was focusing on the firepower aspect. Definately Tau then.

Cerberus wrote:I like to engage at range using firepower and large caliber support.

I like quality over mass in troops.

Attack or defense is not a big concern but mobility, (able to go into bad going to get to places the other side dosent expect), is not a must but a strong consideration.

For "quality over mass", you're looking at an "Elite" army (Marines or Eldar).

If you're engaging at range via quality firepower, then your choices are narrower:
- Space Marines (Devastators, Predators)
- Chaos Marines (Obliterators, Defilers)
- Eldar (Dark Reapers, Fire Prisms / Falcons)

Mobility-wise, then Space Marines first due to cheap Rhinos & Drop Pods, with Razorbacks for more shooting. Eldar are worst due to super-expensive Wave Serpents.

Good luck...

Thank you for your time in your replies so far. It has at least pointed me in a direction so I can start reading up on the suggestions.

I am still interested in hearing others opinions, so feel free to illuminate me.

hmmm, let's see. Weight of firepower? Tons of troops?

Well look no further...GO IG!!!!
If you play your cards right you can have over 330 troops models for less than 2000 pts! (It worked out that 6 platoons, each with one command and 5 infantry squads and no upgrades, is roughly 1680pts) so that still leaves room for tanks and valkryies and storm troopers! (for your mobility)
Mwhahahahahahaaaaaaaa!!!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
...oh wait...you said quality...
*sigh then pack up legion of guardsmen*

DarkHound wrote: Tau have no counter charge support units, and infact they have no assault units what so ever..

Did they remove the Kroot from the codex????

Outflanking or Infiltrating Kroot are amazing at messing up an assault. St4 with lots bodies and decent shooting..........you can outflank 20 Kroot, 12 Kroot hounds, and 3 Krootox Riders for only 317 points and they all count as a scoring troop choice that gets a 3+ cover in woods.......thats a lot of attacks on the charge and too many bodies to shoot down.....

DJ Illuminati wrote:
Did they remove the Kroot from the codex????

Outflanking or Infiltrating Kroot are amazing at messing up an assault. St4 with lots bodies and decent shooting..........you can outflank 20 Kroot, 12 Kroot hounds, and 3 Krootox Riders for only 317 points and they all count as a scoring troop choice that gets a 3+ cover in woods.......thats a lot of attacks on the charge and too many bodies to shoot down.....

While Kroot have their uses, I wouldn't consider them a cure all. Sneeze at them and they go "poof". Also, I thought their +1 cover was in jungle only. And jungle/woods is a 5+ save, so they're still only getting a 4+. If you add riders, they lose their ability to infiltrate/outflank. At the end of the day they're still a T3 unit with Ld7 (8 with shaper), so they're not that hard to get rid of. At best, I consider them a speedbump to buy you another turn or two of shooting.

S4 is cool beans, but they are T3 I3 and have no save, which means they go second and die horribly (and easily). Kroot hounds help, but they are still bully units that can only take down units that can't fight back. Kroot are better at shooting than anything else. I think I'm going to go build a Kauyon list around Kroot and Krootox now, because I haven't ever seen anyone try. Krootox have a pretty knarly gun too, which is something people may over look.

Gornall wrote:

While Kroot have their uses, I wouldn't consider them a cure all. Sneeze at them and they go "poof". Also, I thought their +1 cover was in jungle only. And jungle/woods is a 5+ save, so they're still only getting a 4+. If you add riders, they lose their ability to infiltrate/outflank. At the end of the day they're still a T3 unit with Ld7 (8 with shaper), so they're not that hard to get rid of. At best, I consider them a speedbump to buy you another turn or two of shooting.

OK I forgot that Kroot riders knock Infiltrate off the squad.... but the point is still made that you can have 32 models outflank and strike for a total of 96 s4 attacks.......

There is some fight in those wacky bird/lizards

At I3. So, you'll be able to run down a squad of Guardsmen (while sustaining casualties) and then get blown to peices by LASGUNS (widely considered the worst weapons in the game). Kroot baby-sit objectives, and they die reliably (making for good speed bumps), but they aren't fighters.

DarkHound wrote:At I3. So, you'll be able to run down a squad of Guardsmen (while sustaining casualties) and then get blown to peices by LASGUNS (widely considered the worst weapons in the game). Kroot baby-sit objectives, and they die reliably (making for good speed bumps), but they aren't fighters.

Tell that to a friend of mine that lost a 10 man squad of Plague Marines from that same 32 kroot squad......on paper I3 looks like the end of them.... but against units that can only kill 5-7 kroot at a time, the flood of dice at I3 is still too much for most units to deal with.........and if a Plague Marine squad could get wiped then a Vanilla SM is less likely to live.........


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gornall wrote:
. Also, I thought their +1 cover was in jungle only. And jungle/woods is a 5+ save, so they're still only getting a 4+.

btw woods and jungle are now a 4+.......so the Kroot has a 3+ to sit and shoot from

Considering that I play Nurgle Marines, and that statistically Kroot have a 2.6% chance of killing a Plague Marine per swing, and I have had Kroot outflanked against me I can conclude that you got reallly, reeeeeally lucky. The Plague Marines have a 33% chance to kill a Kroot per swing. Normal Marines go first and have the same chance of killing a Kroot, but their chance of dieing to a Kroot attack goes up to 8.25%.

I honestly think that it is shameful that kroot die from lasguns. That's just pathetic.

Gornall is right (again), they are pretty much only a speed bump. Or bait...or a distraction. I don't think they're worth it.

They are worth it in a list designed with them in mind. They make good bait, distractions and fodder, just not assault troops. They can shoot really well for their points, and with the Hounds can be bullies to things like Obliterators and Devastator squads if you outflank well. They definatly have their place, it just isn't in close combat (unless you planned for that to happen).

Consider Chaos Marines, Eldar, or Tau.

Eldar have extremely strong and mobile troops, but are fragile. Most of their units can move 24" per turn is you build an army that way, which is twice the maximum distance of most vehicles, and 4x the distance most vehicle can travel and still fire their weapons.

Chaos Marines are all tough and fairly strong, with options to become extremely tough or very strong. They are fairly mobile if you mech up, but their real surprise tactics come from deep-striking terminators or obliterators(i.e teleporting anywhere you want on the table)

Tau are an extremely shooty force that relies on either overwhelming firepower, or mobility, to survive. They are a low-tier army (so you wont win many tournies), but they are fun and have lots of unique units. They have battlesuits that can just around the board, or deep strike. They also have the all-powerful RAILGUN which is one of the strongest ranged-weapons in the game, imperial guard artillery out-ranges them, and vindicator shells are more powerful, but neither is both.

*sigh*
Go BA. Do not deny BA. (Forget firepower, go for CHAINSWORD POWER!!!!)

Seriously though, mabye you get get a veteran force in Valkryies, and Tanks providing the fire support?

Tier means nothing Canonness. It is all dependant on player skill. The codex was made to attract anime hobiests, and they make up most of its player base. Most hobiests are fairly gak at the game, so it leads to the impression that the army is bad.

There is no tier.
The tier is an illusion.
It's all in youuuur miiiiiiinnnnd...

DarkHound wrote:At I3. So, you'll be able to run down a squad of Guardsmen (while sustaining casualties) and then get blown to peices by LASGUNS (widely considered the worst weapons in the game). Kroot baby-sit objectives, and they die reliably (making for good speed bumps), but they aren't fighters.

You must be forgetting that those 12 Kroot hounds have I6...they will be killing more than Guardsmen. Sure, the Kroot are slow, but their puppies are fast!

DarkHound wrote:Tier means nothing Canonness. It is all dependant on player skill. The codex was made to attract anime hobiests, and they make up most of its player base. Most hobiests are fairly gak at the game, so it leads to the impression that the army is bad.

A good player playing Tau will be beaten by a good player playing Vulkan lists, you and I both know that.
"When two Ninja of equal skill fight to the death, the Ninja with the sharper sword wins" ~ Naruto.
And yes, I used to play Tau.

Alerian wrote:

DarkHound wrote:At I3. So, you'll be able to run down a squad of Guardsmen (while sustaining casualties) and then get blown to peices by LASGUNS (widely considered the worst weapons in the game). Kroot baby-sit objectives, and they die reliably (making for good speed bumps), but they aren't fighters.

You must be forgetting that those 12 Kroot hounds have I6...they will be killing more than Guardsmen. Sure, the Kroot are slow, but their puppies are fast!

Yes, with the Hounds they are 2 attacks at S4 I6. So, they are 3 on the charge... 36 S4 swings will amount to about a 50% chance of killing a single T5 TEQ (as Plague Marines have a 83% save). Granted that is probably their worse match up. Against a regular (not Chaos) marine those 36 attacks will ammount to about 3 dead Marines. The return swings of the Marines kill 3, and the rest of the Kroot swing (assuming you have 17 Kroot left) with 51 attacks and kill just over 4. There are 3 Marines left, and the Marines elect to fall back with ATSKNF, and (my math is sketchy here, as I don't know the actualy equation for this situation) they have maybe a 50% chance of falling back successfully, because the hounds are the minority you use I3 for the sweeping advance. So, now the Marines are out of combat. You've killed 112 points of marines, and lost 21 points of Kroot. That was a great assault, but now the squad is mopped up from range. I was suprised by that result. Granted Space Marines are hardly close combat troops themselves, the problem with Kroot being assault units is that they are always mopped up afterward. They have no chance of making it into another combat, and require a huge commitment to be worth it. They killed 112 points and then you lose 212. Now, if your plan is to cause a distraction and attract anti-infantry away from exposed Firewarriors (say they had just disembarked to rapid fire and haven't gotten back in yet), this could be invaluable. I'd rather spend those points on their shooting, which is going to last longer and force them to come and dig the Kroot out of cover. Sorry if I am derailing the thread, I find this mathhammering amusing.

To the Cannonness: No one is ever truely equal, and then there is the statistical anomylies of the dice. Tiers are developed by the same Internet people that say the CSM codex has only 1 good build. I whole-hearted disagree.

I agree with DarkHound. It's ALL about the skill of the playa, and the luck of the dice. I just don't think tau are the best army becuase they are pretty much ALL shooty, and there are tactics DESIGNED to take on those kinds of armies. A wise general will be flexible. Or just KILLY KILLY!!!

To the Cannonness: No one is ever truely equal, and then there is the statistical anomylies of the dice. Tiers are developed by the same Internet people that say the CSM codex has only 1 good build. I whole-hearted disagree.

Tiers are developed by tourney results, if chaos, orks, marines, and IG win all the tournies and Tau, DE, WH and DH only win once in a green moon, either they have underpowered codices (likely) or everyone who plays them is bad (unlikely)

Dice have very little in the way of statistical anomalies over the course of hundreds of games played by hundreds of different people. Dice do not roll worse for Tau than they do for Orks.

Good points, but I still think the comment "Tau are a low tier army, so you won't win many tournies" was foolish. A good player can make Tau perform on par and above top tier lists, otherwise they'd never win (and I have it on record that they do).