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this is a doubles list, 1000 points each player, I am trying to find weaknesses.

12 Genestealers, Toxin Sacs, Scuttlers, Flesh Hooks
12 Genestealers, Toxin Sacs, Scuttlers, Flesh Hooks
Broodlord, Toxin Sacs, Feeder Tendrils, Flesh Hooks
11 Genestealer Retunue, Toxin Sacs, Flesh Hooks
2 Lictors

20 Demonettes, Transfixing Gaze, Icon
20 Demonettes, Transfixing Gaze
5 Fiends Of Slaanesh, one with Unholy Might
Keeper of Secrets, Unholy Might, Transfixing Gaze, Sporofic Musk

All but 1 unit in this army fleets, Everything arrives via deep strike/outflanking/infiltrating, and the enemy generally only gets one turn of shooting at 60+ models before we are in combat wrecking face.

We are working on practice games, and we want to face a variety of lists, what list would you run in 2000 points and why? what kind of strategy would you use? do you have any dirty little tactics that could win you the game?

Imperial guard / Daemonhunters.
Inquistor w 3 mytstics in a land raider
Psycannon shooty squad to hit them when they drop
Officer of the fleet to screw your reserve rolls
Picket lines of cheap guard to keep you away from the shooters.

Mech Tau kitted with lots of flechette launchers could ruin your day, but the odds of seeing that are minuscule at best.

Mech armies in general might give you problems as well, as you must declare all your charges before resolving any. So he sits in his transports on the first turn you arrive, shooting/flaming as much as possible. Then you get a turn of charging his transports (assuming you get to them), then all the guys inside pop out and get yet another turn of shooting. Against eldar that's probably not an issue, but against guard you could have trouble.

Inigo Montoya wrote:Imperial guard / Daemonhunters.
Inquistor w 3 mytstics in a land raider
Psycannon shooty squad to hit them when they drop
Officer of the fleet to screw your reserve rolls
Picket lines of cheap guard to keep you away from the shooters.

That would be tough, but I think we could deal, The Demon player would roll for his reserves first, if he gets his guys in then the stealer player can reroll his reserves to try and arrive on the same turn, if the demon player does not get his guys in then the stealer player rerolls to hold his guys back,
We would avoid the psycannon squad on the first drop, getting through picket lines is tough, but doable with the saturation of assaulty units that we have, the only problem would really be the Land Raider, but everything except the Demonettes can at least glance it in close combat, so we are not completely out in the dust.

The problem with that list vs ours is that I dont think it would have enough firepower to stop us in the couple rounds of shooting that the toys would buy you.

My question would be, how do you beat any mech army?

Dark Eldar wych cult. Every unit halves your weapon skill, and removes +1 attack.


Ninja tau will own you too.


Also any army with mystics and fleet officers.

2 practice games yesterday, one was against marine land raider spam, one was against battlewagon orks with shoota boys and gazzy with ard' boys.

against Land Raiders we have S5, S6, and S7 rending attacks that can open them up, en masse it works, albeit the effectiveness is largely based on how far said land raider moved.

Against battlewagons, trucks, rhinos, chimeras, etc we have S3, S5, S6, and S7 rending attacks that all hit rear armor, its actually very easy to wreck anything that isnt a Land Raider or Monolith.

The mobility of vehicles is lost on us as well, because everything Fleets, and Fiends have a 24" threat range for assaults.


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Clthomps wrote:Dark Eldar wych cult. Every unit halves your weapon skill, and removes +1 attack.


Ninja tau will own you too.


Also any army with mystics and fleet officers.

I dont see Ninja Tau being that great against an army that can deepstrike right next to that solo HQ choice trying to hide from us.

If they have mystics the Stealers can just deploy and scuttle forward (and infiltrate) If they have Fleet Officers then the stealers just reroll reserve rolls to coordinate with the arriving demons. If they have both then we coordinate stealers to arrive at the same time as the demons, and roll the outflanking sides first, then use the demons to fill the roll they need, as either a screen for stealers, as a more eminent threat to their lines, or as objective grabbers.

The witch cult would be tough, but not impossible as our side still strikes first in combat, and the stealers would still get to reroll misses most of the time.


-EDIT- This is good, keep these lists coming, we are definately going to try a few practice games against these.

CSM: Dreads (possessed if possible) and defilers.
Even with mass rending, you will have a hard time against AV12 which ignores rending most of the time.
(3 dreads + 3 defilers is roughly 900 pts; you can fill the rest with cult troops in rhinos).


basically, anything mech is likely to kill this list; even if you pop a transport, you will get shot to death by the unit on the next turn (and by making a correct wall, you should not be able to circle the transports...)

Even the classical double lash + PM in rhinos + oblits will wipe you...
You drop 2 units in the first turn, considering their size, they're almost impossible to completely hide; lash, dead to oblits.
On the second turn, you have one more deamon unit, and about 4 nids units (the 3 stealers and one lictor).
If the CSM is not dumb, he would have moved from table edge, so no charge from nids.
he either advances towards the daemon unit (most likely daemonettes, again almost impossible to hide), or towards a lonely nid unit; both will most likely die to lash + oblits + plague marines bolters.
The lictor might blow a rhino, great.
Next turn, last reinforcements, repeat previous turn.


Other option: sternguards in drop pods.


Tu sum up, your units appear too big (daemons); so in first turn, you will just waste two units by being alone on the board.
Then, by turn 2, the nids show up, but you have already lost half of your army wile killing nothing.

I would modify a bit the daemon list:
Wave 1:
20 demonettes + icon
5 fiends
5 fiends
herald on chariot
Wave 2:
6 demonettes (grab objectives)
6 demonettes (grab objectives)
herald on chariot, pavane (pull the enemy for stealers or fiends charge)

basically, for wave 1, you drop the big demonettes unit right in the face to distract and keep the ennemy in his DZ, and the fiends a bit behind.
Then on turn 2, your fiends + stealers might be able to charge (not so sure for stealers if the enemy deployed correctly)

Dreads+ defilers are NOT that effective against stealers and nettes' 12 stealers, assuming they get shot up and dropped down to 8, would still get approx 2 glances and 2 pens on AV12, 20 demonettes, shot up and dropped to 15 would still get 2 pens, 2 glances on AV12. and the dreads and defilers would only be able to crunch a couple each turn, not a good return when you consider that either the vehicle will be destroyed that turn and kill nothing, or it will stay locked and prevent you from shooting that unit.

Also, I think you are overestimating the effectiveness of lash-oblits, yes, they can kill lots, but all 20 in one round of shooting>? That would require either some focused fire, which leaves the other unit in good shape, or half-assing it which leaves a small unit to lock into combat with you next turn and ruin your shootyness against the other guys.
and what about the other unit that dropped down with them, they cant ignore a keeper or fiends.
And what if the stealers had started on the board, scuttled and infiltrated forward, now your concentrated fire has 5 Important targets to shoot at, yes, you can lash 2 units back and clump them up for plasmadeath, but then the other 3 units are on top of you going "nom nom nom"

Mechanized lists are not scarey because rear armor is a juicy target for rends, yea, you will get one turn of shooting after the vehicle is wrecked, but BEFORE that you got how much shooting? oh right, you were in a transport, you got a couple of bolters/plasmaguns/lasguns that only made a small dent in the numbers.

One word, Monolith :3

Nothing you have can kill a monolith, however, for necrons, all you need to do is just assault them to death. Stealers can outflank, and daemons can try dropping close. (And the monolith probably won't have time to kill ALL those stealers.)

Just a note, you cannot possess a dread or defiler.

To the OP: If you're paired up that means you will be playing a pair of opponents as well right? You say you can take down land raiders (which I find possible, but not easy), but what if both players take the maximum amount of land raiders/mech units? Do you really have enough anti-armor/high strength to take them down swiftly before they wreck you? I personally don't think so.

Also, as a csm player I would be taking multiple squads of havocs instead of oblits(especially since I know what I'm facing, oblits are great when you don't know to help fill in your gaps in weaponry types). For the price of 2 oblits (150) I can get a squad of 4 havocs with autocannons (140 pts, 8 str 7 shots), for the price of 9 I can get 3 squads of havocs with autocannons and also have an additional 4 marines per havoc squad to soak wounds. 9 oblits = 9 shots (more hits if plasma cannon/flamer is used), 12 havocs with AC = 24 shots. I could also take a squad of chosen with flamers and plague marines to take your charges. I don't think I would win every time, but I don't think you are as impervious as you seem to think.

Hellhounds, whirlwinds and flamer-heavy Vulkan lists could make for a tough time (basically anything that can negate cover, armor and hit a lot of doodz at once). True they get one (maybe two) tries if you get good reserve rolls, but that may be enough to thin your numbers to manageable levels.

That said, it looks like a mean, mean list. I love taking huge squads of 'Nettes in my Daemon army and watching people's jaws drop as S3 little girls tear open their tanks.

defilers are possessed by default.
dreads, i'm not sure though; don't use them much.

Concerning the lash-oblit, I tend to believe (without precise mathhammer), that
- 1 lash + 3 oblit squads will wipe out a 20 demonettes unit .
- 1 lash + the rest of the army will be able to wipe the other.
The main reason is that, since you are most likely planning to charge on turn 2, you will be between 12 and 18"; so you will be in lash + flamers range.

If you drop the KoS + one demonettes unit, then the oblits will kill the keeper (twin link plasma it to death; 2*3 oblits should be enough).

One point to notice is that most of it can be done without disembarking... so the stealers, if scouting/infiltrating, will end up either killing oblits or rhinos, then will be kicked by whatever was inside the rhinos.
This will leave about 1400 pts to deal with at most 2 daemons units and 2 lictors, which seems quite accessible.

My main criticism about this list was at the end of the previous post, i.e. I don't think it sends units that are coordinated enough, especially since the daemon elements that you are planning to drop on turn 1 are not likely to be able to charge on turn 2 when the nids appear.

On side note, adding a few pavanes might be interesting to pull foot units (if any) in charge range for stealers.



Anyway, if you are planning to go on a tournament with this list, a batrep here would be interesting.

Arleucs wrote:defilers are possessed by default.
dreads, i'm not sure though; don't use them much.

My point was that it is not a wargear option as you seemed to imply. Dreads cannot take possession and do not start with it. Even if they could take possession i wouldnt take dreads because of how terrible they are in the latest codex because you lose control of its actions 1/3 of the time. I think there are much more effective options for killing the enemy instead of just trying to avoid damage (especially with a unit that can turn on his friendlies or charge off towards something that will either tie him up or be a waste for his weapons).

Mechdar, mechtau. They will outmove you and shoot you to death. It won't be pretty. Without any ranged units, or a firebase of any kind you are screwed against armies that get out of the way. Even regular mech can just run around, string you out and pick you off peice meal.

starbomber109 wrote:One word, Monolith :3

Nothing you have can kill a monolith, however, for necrons, all you need to do is just assault them to death. Stealers can outflank, and daemons can try dropping close. (And the monolith probably won't have time to kill ALL those stealers.)

right, I have always been a strong advocate for "Ignore the monolith"


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Halsfield wrote:

To the OP: If you're paired up that means you will be playing a pair of opponents as well right? You say you can take down land raiders (which I find possible, but not easy), but what if both players take the maximum amount of land raiders/mech units? Do you really have enough anti-armor/high strength to take them down swiftly before they wreck you? I personally don't think so.

Land Raider spam is our biggest weakness, we Can take out 1 MAYBE 2 land raiders if we get lucky, but land raiders do not have the firepower necesary to stop the horde, also, if they take land radiers in the tourney (yes its a tourney list) then they are severly crippling their other units, and will make the rest of their army cakewalk for even a single unit of nettes' or stealers'

+1 to Mechdar

...you are especially dead if they are runing Stormies in WS. Doom, 2 Flamers, and Destructor will kill just about anything in your list. This is not even taking into account how a WS mounted council with at least 2 Destructors will completely roll you.

Also +1 to Mech Tau... you will lose 1/2 of your army when assaulting them...Flechetes will own your list, and you can't shoot their transports down.


Again thoug, as others have said...anything Mech will killyou. Sure, you can pop their transports, but then they get to shoot you...and you die.

Ravariel96 wrote:Hellhounds, whirlwinds and flamer-heavy Vulkan lists could make for a tough time (basically anything that can negate cover, armor and hit a lot of doodz at once). True they get one (maybe two) tries if you get good reserve rolls, but that may be enough to thin your numbers to manageable levels.

That said, it looks like a mean, mean list. I love taking huge squads of 'Nettes in my Daemon army and watching people's jaws drop as S3 little girls tear open their tanks.

Agreed completely with this post, but most people take lots of anti-armor as opposed to anti-horde firepower, so we are gambling against the metagame with this list


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DarkHound wrote:Mechdar, mechtau. They will outmove you and shoot you to death. It won't be pretty. Without any ranged units, or a firebase of any kind you are screwed against armies that get out of the way. Even regular mech can just run around, string you out and pick you off peice meal.

they can either out move me, or shoot me to death, if they are moving fast enough to get away from me they are not shooting, if they are shooting then they will not get away.

Draw out a table to scale, imagine where a mech player would deploy+move, then place deep striking nettes in the center field. the mech player will either stand still and try to kill all the demons, or move to the sides, In either case, fleeting units in the center of the field with fleeting outflankers means you cannot escape close combat.


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Arleucs wrote:defilers are possessed by default.
dreads, i'm not sure though; don't use them much.

Concerning the lash-oblit, I tend to believe (without precise mathhammer), that
- 1 lash + 3 oblit squads will wipe out a 20 demonettes unit .
- 1 lash + the rest of the army will be able to wipe the other.
The main reason is that, since you are most likely planning to charge on turn 2, you will be between 12 and 18"; so you will be in lash + flamers range.

If you drop the KoS + one demonettes unit, then the oblits will kill the keeper (twin link plasma it to death; 2*3 oblits should be enough).

One point to notice is that most of it can be done without disembarking... so the stealers, if scouting/infiltrating, will end up either killing oblits or rhinos, then will be kicked by whatever was inside the rhinos.
This will leave about 1400 pts to deal with at most 2 daemons units and 2 lictors, which seems quite accessible.

My main criticism about this list was at the end of the previous post, i.e. I don't think it sends units that are coordinated enough, especially since the daemon elements that you are planning to drop on turn 1 are not likely to be able to charge on turn 2 when the nids appear.

On side note, adding a few pavanes might be interesting to pull foot units (if any) in charge range for stealers.



Anyway, if you are planning to go on a tournament with this list, a batrep here would be interesting.

The lash-list might be able to drop 2 demon units, true. That is assuming that we deep strike close enough for that, we can always deploy in the back on an objective, and wait for everything to arrive on one turn, Target saturation is the name of the game we are playing here.
The coordination of this army relies mostly on the fact that the Stealers have a wealth of deployment options available, scout move, outflank, and rerolls on reserves makes them quite reliable in that respect, one unit can also infiltrate.
Also, the demon element is very likely to get the 2nd turn charge because of fleet and a 12" assault range on fiends.

We opted out of pavane because 99% of the time we will be running instead of "shooting" anyways. (and the fact that you have to roll to hit with it, then you only get to move the enemy 1d6, its just not that great overall)


I can write up a batrep for our practice games at least, but the tourney is a ways away.

Demogerg wrote:

DarkHound wrote:Mechdar, mechtau. They will outmove you and shoot you to death. It won't be pretty. Without any ranged units, or a firebase of any kind you are screwed against armies that get out of the way. Even regular mech can just run around, string you out and pick you off peice meal.

they can either out move me, or shoot me to death, if they are moving fast enough to get away from me they are not shooting, if they are shooting then they will not get away.

Draw out a table to scale, imagine where a mech player would deploy+move, then place deep striking nettes in the center field. the mech player will either stand still and try to kill all the demons, or move to the sides, In either case, fleeting units in the center of the field with fleeting outflankers means you cannot escape close combat.

While you may catch some of them in close combat, that is the worst way to kill a transport, especially with such fragile units. The squads that catch a transport get blown to peices by the cargo. Plus, after the first 2 turns your trap is sprung and you lose your mobility. Anything that escapes your pincer is free to set-up where it suits them best and blast/chop anything you leave vulnerable.

lictors are bad, 1 more stealers swarm?
your lord and his retinue does not outflank, am i wrong?

hippohroch wrote:lictors are bad, 1 more stealers swarm?
your lord and his retinue does not outflank, am i wrong?

They can outflank, but the Broodlord takes away fleet.

Greetings,

I would agree with the Mechdar comments and add in DE Raider Spam (which is much the same). I play DE heavily and my usual list at doubles (teaming with a Daemon player, oddly enough) would be looking pretty solid versus your list. Both Eldar mech armies have highly mobile transports that could fire a plethora of weapons at you while maintaining cruising speed to vastly weaken your ability to pop the vehicles.

Both armies also have very fast and potent h2h units that could prove themselves as effective tarpits or killers of your Nids and daemons.

I also agree that versus a pile of Land Raiders you could have a slightly rough situation as short of your Rend ability you don't have a means to pop 14AV which a lot of people do like to bring to doubles or small point games in the hopes of overloading their opponent with AVs they can't pop (I recently played a rather obnoxious triple landraider doubles list. Thank gawd for Lances is all I can say)

Overall though I think it's a solid base strategy and will perform pretty darn well versus a reasonable spread of opposing lists.

My thoughts,
Thor.

Hi,

For 1000 points I can field 2x12FW with PR in Devilfish with SMS + 2xHammerhead with Railgun and Burst Cannons. All vehicles will have flechettes and I will have points left for stealth suits and HQ.

One turn of shooting should be enough. Devilfish - 6 BC and 8 SMS shots, Hammerheads - 12 BC and 2 submunition rounds. Even if you succeed in destroying all the vehicles you will lose at least 25% of you forces to flechettes and you will have to deal with 2 squads of FW in RF range and don't forget about the stealth suits and HQ :>

How can you possibly win?

hippohroch wrote:lictors are bad, 1 more stealers swarm?
your lord and his retinue does not outflank, am i wrong?

Lictors are crucial, they give me feeder tendrils on the 2 units of stealers that are not with the Broodlord.
they also allow me to reroll reserves, which is key in coordinating the assault with demons.
as a bonus, S6 rending means they can hurt AV14, not reliably or anything, but 4 S6 rending attacks have better odds than a lascannon vs AV 14.


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Pentekont wrote:Hi,

For 1000 points I can field 2x12FW with PR in Devilfish with SMS + 2xHammerhead with Railgun and Burst Cannons. All vehicles will have flechettes and I will have points left for stealth suits and HQ.

One turn of shooting should be enough. Devilfish - 6 BC and 8 SMS shots, Hammerheads - 12 BC and 2 submunition rounds. Even if you succeed in destroying all the vehicles you will lose at least 25% of you forces to flechettes and you will have to deal with 2 squads of FW in RF range and don't forget about the stealth suits and HQ :>

How can you possibly win?

Because even a couple of Genestealers can clean up your FW/stealth suits/HQ in close combat, if you dont eliminate all of them then you will have a problem.

Maybe i am just crazy but i would say swarm boys (not storm boys mind you but swarms of boys) i mean sure you are better than them in CC but its still alot of boys your going against and i would put my money on numbers over skill when it comes to CC

I also put in my votes for mech IG and mech eldar. Master of the fleet, pie plates, and oodles of flamers from guard, and/or Doom, dire avengers, and seer councils from the eldarl; all of which using fast-moving transports to bunch up your units (hitting tanks on 6s is a bad scene), then the contents sweep the unit.

Also, a soul grinder or ironclad could tarpit/munch up anything in your army but the keeper. The Broodlord needs 6s to pen, and even the Keeper is averaging 13, a glance. AV13 dreads would just blast you with a heavy flamer, then giggle and kill 2 models a turn, and a 3rd to no retreat, all game until the unit dies, something comes and finishes the job, or the game ends.

edit:

Battle Brother Loken wrote:i would put my money on numbers over skill when it comes to CC

I'm unsure on this one. You could stuff 4 mobs of 30 boyz into even just one of the 1000 point armies, but any of the units in the above armies, excluding the keeper, will kill over half the boyz in a mob on the charge. Since they've all got excellent charge ranges, they're very likely to be the ones getting said charge, too. Which is exactly what cripples boyz; fighting at S3, having 30 fewer attacks, not a nice place to be. Having said that, 20 daemonettes would wipe 30 boyz, losing 5 or so. 30 MORE boyz would counter-charge, wiping those. the other daemonettes would counter-countercharge, killing the boyz. etc. etc. etc.

my money is still on IG. Feed the enemy 55 pts of guardsmen, then slap some pie plates on there and it's done. Hell, a PCS with 4 flamers (a whopping 50 points) would virtually table any of the enemy infantry units. Let alone a demolisher driving around getting hit on 6s and rear AV 11, then pie plating/sponson heavy flamer'ing like a madman.

Demogerg wrote:this is a doubles list, 1000 points each player, I am trying to find weaknesses.

12 Genestealers, Toxin Sacs, Scuttlers, Flesh Hooks
12 Genestealers, Toxin Sacs, Scuttlers, Flesh Hooks
Broodlord, Toxin Sacs, Feeder Tendrils, Flesh Hooks
11 Genestealer Retunue, Toxin Sacs, Flesh Hooks
2 Lictors

20 Demonettes, Transfixing Gaze, Icon
20 Demonettes, Transfixing Gaze
5 Fiends Of Slaanesh, one with Unholy Might
Keeper of Secrets, Unholy Might, Transfixing Gaze, Sporofic Musk

All but 1 unit in this army fleets, Everything arrives via deep strike/outflanking/infiltrating, and the enemy generally only gets one turn of shooting at 60+ models before we are in combat wrecking face.

We are working on practice games, and we want to face a variety of lists, what list would you run in 2000 points and why? what kind of strategy would you use? do you have any dirty little tactics that could win you the game?

Ninja Tau wouldn't be a problem. If someone is running that against you personally thank them.

One thing I notice from the start is that you are relying on rending way to much. Slaanesh themed armies are cool I guess but with Daemonettes being one of the weaker units in the codex and fiends being one of the strongest I would be running more fiends.

Also, the KoS might be better of as Chariot Heralds. The main reason here is that they have more speed. You lack speed HEAVILY.

IG Would give you hell IMO. Mass firepower would just be devestating. Your in the open with little speed and the Daemon player will have half of his army off the board the first couple turns if EVERYTHING goes right.

Also, your biggest weakness if that you HAVE to assault. You got nothing that can shoot. That is bad news if your versing something like green tide.

I can't believe you would consider outflank either. With your ally having half of his force off of the board you want to put MORE into reserves.

Here is a list I think could own both of the armies:

GKGM - 175 *note on this guy, due to poor wording on the GK Force Weapons rule he can instakill EVERYTHING. Doesn't matter if your an eternal warriors it happens. This is because EW only blocks instant death. The GK FW doesn't cause instant death, it just kills you. That KOS is toast. He won't survive a single combat.*
Sacred Incense; Grimoire of True Names

Grey Knights - 160
4x; Justicar; Incinerator

Grey Knights - 160
4x; Justicar; Incinerator

Land Raider Crusader - 255

Land Raider - 250

* GK Get you into PLOX FLAMER ME! Formation then ignore your saves. Yum.

---------------------------------

Librarian - 140
Null Zone; The Avenger; Terminator Armor; Storm Shield *This guy says %*$& you invuln saves!

Assault Terminators - 440
5x TH/SS; LRR *Rending is good right? Not against these guys.

Scout Squad - 85 *Hide
Snipers x4; Heavy Bolter

Scout Squad - 75 * sit in the LRR as a scoring x-port.
Shotguns x5

Landraider Crusader - 260
Multi-Melta

You just can't deal with 4x Landraiders. The GKGM could annihilate anything he touches with that kinda GK backing. The TH/SS termies combined with Nullzone and the LRR mean death to all. A mass assault from the LR's is just pure death. The thing about this list to is that it isn't actually a specific counter to your list and I wouldn't be surprised if you saw something like this. A complete counter to your list would be a combination of a Vulcan LRR army and a DH army packing tri-LRC.

With only one unit not in a LR your gone. Lictors can be easily targeted and killed and stealers can't do jack. Glance to death? Sure. Try. KoS won't give past the GKGM. Neither will the broodlord. He can be instagibbed to.

If you think you can beat this i'll post a SoB Immolator Horde.

The Defenestrator wrote:
Also, a soul grinder or ironclad could tarpit/munch up anything in your army but the keeper. The Broodlord needs 6s to pen, and even the Keeper is averaging 13, a glance. AV13 dreads would just blast you with a heavy flamer, then giggle and kill 2 models a turn, and a 3rd to no retreat, all game until the unit dies, something comes and finishes the job, or the game ends.

the only unit they could tarpit would be the Demonettes, the stealers all have toxin sacs, and will eat walkers.

With so many hard counters to demons they are handi-cap.

Mech sisters/immolator spam would do very well IMO, as well as jumpy blood angels. Immolator spam will kill you in droves, jumpy blood angels are hard to catch and are better at getting the charge, which assaulty armies depend on when facing other assaulty armies.

I think mech sisters with allied daemonhunters would do best, I just wish you could take sisters, mystics, and officers of the fleet all in the same list.