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1,000 point list or 2,000 point list to counter this?


1,000 point list:

Skulltaker: juggernaut - 175
Herald: juggernaut, unholy might - 120

4 blood crushers - 160
4 blood crushers - 160

8 bloodletters - 128
8 bloodletters - 128
8 bloodletters - 128

Total - 999 points




2,000 point list:

Skulltaker: juggernaut - 175
Herald: juggernaut, unholy might - 120
Herald: juggernaut, unholy might - 120

7 blood crushers - 280
7 blood crushers: icon - 305
7 blood crushers: icon - 305

10 bloodletters: icon - 185
10 bloodletters: icon - 185
10 bloodletters - 160
10 bloodletters - 160


1,995 points.




Your armies rely on good close combat attacks, both in large numbers and with the ability to ignore saves.
against this army there arent really that many saves to remove, letters can match both stealers and daemonettes in combat with ease.
all in all its a bloodbath army designed to push into a fight and drag up ground as quickly as possible.

Characters ride with crusher units just to add the extra damage in.
Skulltaker gets to aim at the broodlord since he can kill him via instant death (on a 4+)

Broodlord is in a retinue, you cannot single him out, Also, Synapse means immune to ID.

Also, 12 stealers charging into 7 bloodcrushers means about 4 dead blood crushers (3 with wound allocation from icon) then the 4 (assuming wound allocation) would attack back for about 4 dead stealers, then on your turn the stealers would kill another 3 blood crushers, with return attacks killing about 1 stealer, if he fails his no retreat wound save then the stealers win on your turn, look at that.

Also, 12 stealers charging into 10 bloodletters will do 14 wounds after saves, before letters can attack
Also, 10 letters charging into 12 stealers means about 9 dead bloodletters before they can attack.

Demogerg wrote:Broodlord is in a retinue, you cannot single him out, Also, Synapse means immune to ID.

Ah did forget about the Retinue. Instant Death. The GKGM doesn't use ID. It just says "the opponent is slain outright". Sounds like ID, works like ID, but it isn't and that's the scary part.

EzeKK wrote:

Demogerg wrote:Broodlord is in a retinue, you cannot single him out, Also, Synapse means immune to ID.

Ah did forget about the Retinue. Instant Death. The GKGM doesn't use ID. It just says "the opponent is slain outright". Sounds like ID, works like ID, but it isn't and that's the scary part.

Yes, i know about the GKGM, i was refering to the skulltaker reference above

Demogerg wrote:

EzeKK wrote:

Demogerg wrote:Broodlord is in a retinue, you cannot single him out, Also, Synapse means immune to ID.

Ah did forget about the Retinue. Instant Death. The GKGM doesn't use ID. It just says "the opponent is slain outright". Sounds like ID, works like ID, but it isn't and that's the scary part.

Yes, i know about the GKGM, i was refering to the skulltaker reference above

Oh my bad ;D

any force with a lot of shooting and good CC will own this list. Center board set up knowing you have to come to me eliminates charges from the stealers. The demons have to deep strike close or get shot up, setting up a screen of tough CC units will stop the demon bomb charge cold.

So something along the lines of

30 ard boys w/ mad dok 4+ w/ FNP x2 PK
30 shoots boys w/ 3 big shootas Nob PK (x4)

x5 killa kans

BM KFF

Lootas x30

Pretty standard list, not tooled for your list.

your looking at 480 str4 shots 36 str 5 30-90 str 7 5 str8 and ard boys with FNP that will get the charge for 120 attacks and 10 PK attacks.

You have a standard stealer spam list w/ out the zilla nids to back them up, instead you have demons to back them up. Your entire army comes in piecemeal so you are at a huge disadvatnge for the entire game you could end up playing 1000 points vs. 2000 for the first turn and it snowballs from there. This only works against someone who doesnt know how to fight it. The ork BW's got what they deserved for rushing stealers. Itll work if you play noobs or you manage to scare people into making dumb mistakes, good luck.

Demogerg wrote:the only unit they could tarpit would be the Demonettes, the stealers all have toxin sacs, and will eat walkers.

S5 rending vs AV13 is far from "eating", sorry. You need 6s to rend, then 3+4 to glance, or 5-6 to pen. Meaning 1 in 18 hits pens, 1 in 18 hits. You'll be lucky to get 2 of each on the charge, and most of them will be shaken/stunned which the grinder ignores, and the ironclad can afford to lose an attack over.

@JD21290: Khorne lists rely VERY heavily on their ability to ignore saves to be successful; genestealers pack a 5+, while everything else is invuln. Demogerg's got the right of it, khorne needs to go first, or be hitting people who rely on 3+ and 2+ saves to be effective.

da gob smaka wrote:any force with a lot of shooting and good CC will own this list. Center board set up knowing you have to come to me eliminates charges from the stealers. The demons have to deep strike close or get shot up, setting up a screen of tough CC units will stop the demon bomb charge cold.

So something along the lines of

30 ard boys w/ mad dok 4+ w/ FNP x2 PK
30 shoots boys w/ 3 big shootas Nob PK (x4)

x5 killa kans

BM KFF

Lootas x30

Pretty standard list, not tooled for your list.

your looking at 480 str4 shots 36 str 5 30-90 str 7 5 str8 and ard boys with FNP that will get the charge for 120 attacks and 10 PK attacks.

You have a standard stealer spam list w/ out the zilla nids to back them up, instead you have demons to back them up. Your entire army comes in piecemeal so you are at a huge disadvatnge for the entire game you could end up playing 1000 points vs. 2000 for the first turn and it snowballs from there. This only works against someone who doesnt know how to fight it. The ork BW's got what they deserved for rushing stealers. Itll work if you play noobs or you manage to scare people into making dumb mistakes, good luck.

Did you read the thread? or are you just chiming in with some numbers from a generic ork army?

because this army does not arrive piecemeal, and it would roflstomp that ork list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Defenestrator wrote:

Demogerg wrote:the only unit they could tarpit would be the Demonettes, the stealers all have toxin sacs, and will eat walkers.

S5 rending vs AV13 is far from "eating", sorry. You need 6s to rend, then 3+4 to glance, or 5-6 to pen. Meaning 1 in 18 hits pens, 1 in 18 hits. You'll be lucky to get 2 of each on the charge, and most of them will be shaken/stunned which the grinder ignores, and the ironclad can afford to lose an attack over.

Well, I am sorry if i think that 2 pens and 2 glances on Average is pretty good, it only takes 1 pen to stop a vehicle.
(dont forget I am rerolling all misses from feeder tendrils)

Also, let me add thank you for all the responses, helps me to practice strategy against some lists I may have not thought of.

I wonder, how would you do against the growing in popularity Space Marine Biker Gang list?

starbomber109 wrote:I wonder, how would you do against the growing in popularity Space Marine Biker Gang list?

maybe Ill try it out on Saturday, my other teammate has a biker marine army

May I just say very good list... both the nid and daemon list.

With that said may I just make a suggestion on the daemon list. Maybe trade out 6 daemonetts for 5 plague bearers for object capturing purposes. Just a thought but your army looks like it is designed to table the opponent rather than achieve an objective.

I would watch out for a good mech vet or air cav IG army where they will also be in reserves and will have advisors that will control you reserves and theirs. They would have two of each of the advisors and you first reserve roll would be on a 6+ and then 5+ ect ect... And then their reserves (either vets in chimeras or valkyries/vendettas) he can either use the advisors to come in or just turn them of if he does not want them too. He can then isolate each squad in your army and take them out. They could also play keep away with your units if they were an aircav with all of those fast vehicles.

Just some of my thoughts...

IG with the astropath and officer of the fleet. Your combo is at minus one and your side roll can be forced to be rerolled. I have used this to have a heavy side and a weak side. Thus I was able to deal with the strong side because of set up while slowly removing the weaker side with out much of an issue. You can catch people off guard unless they are ready to deal with you, and one round of shooting is plenty when your only putting so much out. As well as putting so much on any given side.

I also can't help but notice there is nothing (read: nothing) in the list that causes instant death to T4, which means diversified nobs would do horrible, horrible things to it, especially in battlewagons where they can get the charge a lot easier.

So my solution is a 2 warboss 2 diversified nobs list, both in battlewagons, with burnas, and 19 +nob boys squad to flavor. This is of course theoretical, as I do not nor do I plan to collect an ork army.

However, Sanguine, I do and I agree with that statement. Nob Bikers have fallen out of favour due to their all consumingly high price, but a squad of 6 or so diversified nobs is a cheap punch for any list. A mob of boyz would run over the Daemonettes, Lootas and Battlewagons will shred the Stealers and the Nobs will keep anyone from getting to the big guns because of their insane durability. I don't mean to sound cocky, but honestly I think I could beat this doubles list with my ork's 1500.

Your lists look interesting to play against, but without a diversity of units, you can't adjust yourself to meet a range of threats you'll find in a tournement. You are relying on shock and awe, and as a man greater than me once said "A plan that relies on the enemy's mistakes is already flawed." A quarter of your army comes down on turn one, then 4/5s of the reserves on turn two. You basically throw the first wave of the Daemons to their death before the hitting power of your lists comes down, and because your army comes in through reserves, you are going to get mishaps and wrong edges making some units useless before the enemy even touches them. If the enemy panics or makes a mistake, you'll win. If he plays it cool and knows what he is doing, you won't be able to touch him. It'll be fun to play though, and I'll want to see how you did. How long until gameday?

DarkHound wrote:However, Sanguine, I do and I agree with that statement. Nob Bikers have fallen out of favour due to their all consumingly high price, but a squad of 6 or so diversified nobs is a cheap punch for any list. A mob of boyz would run over the Daemonettes, Lootas and Battlewagons will shred the Stealers and the Nobs will keep anyone from getting to the big guns because of their insane durability. I don't mean to sound cocky, but honestly I think I could beat this doubles list with my ork's 1500.

Id love to play your 2000 point list, and show you how this list actually works vs the theoryhammer that everyone here is providing.

DarkHound wrote:
Your lists look interesting to play against, but without a diversity of units, you can't adjust yourself to meet a range of threats you'll find in a tournement. You are relying on shock and awe, and as a man greater than me once said "A plan that relies on the enemy's mistakes is already flawed." A quarter of your army comes down on turn one, then 4/5s of the reserves on turn two. You basically throw the first wave of the Daemons to their death before the hitting power of your lists comes down, and because your army comes in through reserves, you are going to get mishaps and wrong edges making some units useless before the enemy even touches them. If the enemy panics or makes a mistake, you'll win. If he plays it cool and knows what he is doing, you won't be able to touch him. It'll be fun to play though, and I'll want to see how you did. How long until gameday?

This plan does not rely on opponent mistakes, it relies on sound tactics and mathmatics, just like every other army in the game.


Also, reserves are not a requirement for 1/2 the army, If we are facing an IG list that would make us reroll table edges and penalize reserves ill just start them on the table, scout forward and infiltrate the genestealers, target saturation, can you kill 20 demonettes, 5 fiends, and 36* genestealers in one turn?

Demogerg wrote:
The witch cult would be tough, but not impossible as our side still strikes first in combat, and the stealers would still get to reroll misses most of the time.

Chances are on raiders the wyches will charge you first so no additional attack, along with you losing your 2ccw attacks ... 1/6 of a chance they have drugs to always strike first... or will be I6 anyway. Since you're at half WS... and they have 4+ Invun you might find they will murder the letters.

If you intend to play test vs this make sure they have some dissie ravagers as well! Triple plasma or it's sustained fire mode might prove painful as well.

I am looking to enter a doubles tournament in the UK soon with my white scars friend, so have been looking into whether wyches/ravagers would work but at the end of the day i might default back to raider spam/ravagers. Depends on the tourny rules and whether they will allow combos like DE/White Scars or DE/Eldar The latter might prove tough for you as well. Fully mech moving 12" so you are 6's to hit and they could field seer council... 2 prisms... 3 squads of wyches and 2-3 dissie ravagers... with a few other pieces. Thats a hell of a lot of painful templates and then 4 combat units that probably hold their own against you! Just doing some calcs and i'll add an army up in a short while for you to take a look at and see what you think

Demogerg wrote:

DarkHound wrote:Your lists look interesting to play against, but without a diversity of units, you can't adjust yourself to meet a range of threats you'll find in a tournement. You are relying on shock and awe, and as a man greater than me once said "A plan that relies on the enemy's mistakes is already flawed." A quarter of your army comes down on turn one, then 4/5s of the reserves on turn two. You basically throw the first wave of the Daemons to their death before the hitting power of your lists comes down, and because your army comes in through reserves, you are going to get mishaps and wrong edges making some units useless before the enemy even touches them. If the enemy panics or makes a mistake, you'll win. If he plays it cool and knows what he is doing, you won't be able to touch him. It'll be fun to play though, and I'll want to see how you did. How long until gameday?

This plan does not rely on opponent mistakes, it relies on sound tactics and mathmatics, just like every other army in the game.

I'm sorry, but the army does against a fully mechanized list. You have to trade your squads to kill transports, and you simply can't afford that. Without ranged support to take down transports, it is beyond the capability of this list to beat mech. You asked for holes in the list, and that is a rather big one. Now, I haven't offered advise to alleviate this, which makes me sound like a flamer. Sorry about that. If you brought Raveners with Deathspitters, a Soul Grinder, or maybe some Warriors, just anything with about S7 shooting you'd be fine.

Also, reserves are not a requirement for 1/2 the army, If we are facing an IG list that would make us reroll table edges and penalize reserves ill just start them on the table, scout forward and infiltrate the genestealers, target saturation, can you kill 20 demonettes, 5 fiends, and 36* genestealers in one turn?

From the 'Ard Boyz lists I've seen, a 2000pt mech IG can kill a large portion of that on turn 1 unless you go to ground.

Cont.

Dark Eldar:
HQ:
Hermonculi + Destructor (40)
Hermonculi + Destructor (40)

Troops:
5 Dark Eldar Warriors + Raider (105)
5 Dark Eldar Warriors + Raider (105)

Elite:
6 Wyches + Plasma Grenades + Wych Weapons + Succubus + Agoniser + Raider (167)
6 Wyches + Plasma Grenades + Wych Weapons + Succubus + Agoniser + Raider (167)
5 Wyches + Plasma Grenades + Wych Weapons + Succubus + Agoniser + Raider (153)

Heavy Support:
Ravager + 3 Disintegrators (120)
Ravager + 3 Disintegrators (120)
Total = 997

Eldar:
HQ:
Farseer + Jetbike + Runes of Warding + Runes of Witnessing + Fortune (140)
Farseer + Jetbike + Doom (110)
5 Warlocks + Jetbikes + Embolden + Enhance + 3 Destructors (275)

Troops:
3 Jetbikes + Shuriken Cannon + Warlock + Destructor (131)
3 Jetbikes + Shuriken Cannon (76)

Heavy Support
Fire Prism + Spirit Stones (125)
Fire Prism + Spirit Stones (125)
Total = 982

Ok tactics would be quite simple... hold the centre of the deployment zone and blast everything that fell. The list has 6 Flamers, 6 Disintegrators (so thats either 6 plasma shots or supressed fire of 24 Str 4 AP 3 shots), 2 Prism blast templates, 5 Dark Lances. Wyches charge demonette squads and hold them up/kill them whilst the seer council fortunes itself, dooms your stealers unit and takes it out. All vehicles always move over 6" incase you get something close... and all 4 troop selections pretty much bunker down near objectives.
Infact i might play test this force myself... looks quite nasty!

Also, reserves are not a requirement for 1/2 the army, If we are facing an IG list that would make us reroll table edges and penalize reserves ill just start them on the table, scout forward and infiltrate the genestealers, target saturation, can you kill 20 demonettes, 5 fiends, and 36* genestealers in one turn?

So what your saying is half your army will start on the board vs an entire enemy army. 36 gens vs 2k points of enemy fire power as your putting it? I am not trying to be a jerk but a little math hammer would go a long ways vs your

can you kill 20 demonettes, 5 fiends, and 36* genestealers in one turn?

because one your not going to see 36 stealers and 20 dem and five fiends from your quote.

Null zone is another issue demaon face and I have seen a fair amount of deamon players just give up vs a SM army.

Pesonally a strong IG/SM army will lay you low though you have a good idea and if your quick you should be able to catch people off their guard. I myself found Creed with a full unit of out flanking GK to just be sick vs any army in the Ard Boys.

I think you have put together a solid list. Sure you will have some trouble with skimmer/mech or raider spam but every army has something they are weak against. I like the co-ordinated deepstrike/outflank strategy.

You have a good chance of winning a tourney with a list like this, sure it might be a matter of matchups/scenarios, but thats always a consideration. I also think the list is far from overpowered and will require a thoughtful application of skill and tactics to win, so if you manage to win the tourney you would have every reason to be proud.

Ravariel96 wrote:That said, it looks like a mean, mean list. I love taking huge squads of 'Nettes in my Daemon army and watching people's jaws drop as S3 little girls tear open their tanks.

Even with Rending, can a Daemonette touch a LR? Even with rending, the most they can get is (STR + d6 + Rending) penetration for (3 + 6 + 3) or a AP of 12. Sure that's enough to cut through the back of most tanks, but can they do anything against LRs?

Thanks! Just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

labmouse42 wrote:

Ravariel96 wrote:That said, it looks like a mean, mean list. I love taking huge squads of 'Nettes in my Daemon army and watching people's jaws drop as S3 little girls tear open their tanks.

Even with Rending, can a Daemonette touch a LR? Even with rending, the most they can get is (STR + d6 + Rending) penetration for (3 + 6 + 3) or a AP of 12. Sure that's enough to cut through the back of most tanks, but can they do anything against LRs?

Thanks! Just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

No, nettes cant touch Land Raiders, and nothing in this army can touch a Monolith, but the Stealers can glance a Land Raider, (STR(5)+d6(6)+d3(3)=14) Broodlord, Lictors, Fiends, and KOS can all pen Land Raiders.

But most tanks have rear armor 10 or 11, making them targets for anything in this army.

A list tailored to try and beat your list will lose to everyone else. Atfter the 1st round you won't need to worry about that. You should concentrate on popular lists that you can expect to see at the tournament.

Mech IG with a bunch of Chimeras and a few heavy tanks is very popular. Each Chimera will have a hull heavy flamer to try and deal with hordes list, like ytours, when they get close and still have the long range firepower to whittle down units that are out of immediate assault range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thinking about this some more, your biggest nightmare might be a Guard/marine hybrid. Chimera heavy flamers, officer of the fleet, Librarian with Nullzone, and a Thunderfire cannon to deny cover saves. This would be ouch.

HQ - Librarian in Terminator armor, storm shield, nullzone, vortex
EL - Dreadnought
TR - 10 marines, lascannon, meltagun
TR - 10 marines, lascannon, meltagun
FA - 3 MM attack bikes
FA - 3 attack bikes
HV - Thunderfire cannon

HQ - ccs, fleet, lascannon
TR - 10 vets, 3 meltaguns, chimera, hf
TR - pcs, 4 flamers chimera, hf
10 infantry, autocannon, chimera, hf
10 infantry, autocannon, chimera, hf
hws - 3 autocannons
HV - 2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks, side heavy bolters

DarthDiggler wrote:A list tailored to try and beat your list will lose to everyone else. Atfter the 1st round you won't need to worry about that. You should concentrate on popular lists that you can expect to see at the tournament.

QFT
My current army list are marine bikers with tons of melta guns. It slags mech' armies into little puddles of plasti-steel gue.
Horde armies, or even a demon army like this one, will rip it up.

wow. best list ever.

thanks for sharing.

/thread.

I like the two lists presented because paired together they are well thought out. They combine very well. You probably don't need pavane but I could see it helping your team in certain circumstances. What are the rules for the tourney in terms of building your FoCs?

The main weakness I see is versus armies that have a good number of flamer templates. While it's not that popular and I probably wouldn't worry too much about it, it could be a problem since you don't really have much defense versus large templates other than trying to assault before the opponent can drop their flamers.

I think this army would eat jump heavy SM armies, even if they charge you. You have initiative and WS plus lots of rending.

Sure there will always be armies that can ravage your lists but are your opponents going to just tailor their lists to beat down yours? I dont think so. If you get some decent matchups you should do very well. The only change I would make is to add some shooting, such as a Soul Grinder and/or dakkafex. As it stands right now you have no shooting at all and that could be exploited.

G

A list tailored to try and beat your list will lose to everyone else. Atfter the 1st round you won't need to worry about that. You should concentrate on popular lists that you can expect to see at the tournament.

So, diversified nobs or 3 Land Raider lists are "tailored" ?

That's not what I said. If you took my intent as such it's not what I meant. Three landraiders is fairly common though in team tournaments so that could be a problem, especially if they have a redeemer.

G

I'm not quoting you....I was quoting Darth Diggler.

Sanguine Sympathy wrote:

A list tailored to try and beat your list will lose to everyone else. Atfter the 1st round you won't need to worry about that. You should concentrate on popular lists that you can expect to see at the tournament.

So, diversified nobs or 3 Land Raider lists are "tailored" ?

A pair of 1000 point armies is unlikey to have land raider spam. how many Land Raiders do you roll with at 1000 points?
If an army does have more than 2 LRs, then we can be thankful that they dont have much else in their army that we would need to worry about.

Nobs wont be much of a problem for a similar reason, they are a point sink. They have the added benefit of being able to be killed by any combination of 2 units from this list charging in, (save the lictors)