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I've never been able to make Autocannons perform for me. It always seems like the 5+s to pen against even light transports is too steep, even when saturating a list with them. Even though they are cheaper and have more shots to offset their reduced strength, it seems to me one has to spend more points on them to get them to perform as a whole compared to a good Lascannon battery anyway. This has been a consistant problem for me. For example, my IG Lascannon Battery with Bring it Down scythes through transports, statistically getting Immobilized or worse 74.25% of the time. However, it takes two Autocannon batteries with Bring it Down to statistically match this (although they never seem to on the table). This is more expensive in points, KPs, orders (where applicable), table space and are unable to cover all vehicles. Maybe it my dice simply don't like Autocannons, and this is all in my head. Where do you guys stand?

Are you using autocannons solely for anti-armour?

Not a guard player myself, but my guard-playing freind has also never been able to make autocannon's work. I believe the general consenseous is to leave tham at home.


Instead, get more Multi lasors.

DarkHound wrote:this is all in my head.

Yeah, probably. Generally speaking, lascannons cost twice as much (often more, look at the predator) as autocannons. They're nowhere near twice as useful. That math seems simple enough to me

Seriously though, the units you give autocannons to aren't the ones you turn to when you need a tank dead for certain. BS3, squishy, fearful, AND reliant on orders? They get a supplementary weapon - something useful against almost any target. They don't stand out, which helps the squishiness. They get multiple shots, which helps with the crappy BS. They're cheap, which... well, yeah. On such an easy target to neutralize you don't want to be hurting if (when) you lose it.

Lascannons go on Vendettas. Autocannons go on infantry.

Autocannons: against transports, tough hordes(tyranid warriors, 'ard boyz)
Lascannons: against light tanks(hammerheads, predators)
Mtlagunez: against tough tanks

adielubbe wrote:Are you using autocannons solely for anti-armour?

Initially yes. Lately their role has been to wait until the real anti-tank has fired and either lend their support or fire on already exposed infantry. More and more I'm finding I don't need these 'generalists' and that I'd be better off getting more dedicated anti-infantry and anti-tank for the points.

I should add I wasn't even really impressed by Lootas. A roll of three makes them worth it, but the rest of the time their fire is sub-par to terrible, especially for the points.

The issue with Autocannons is that they violate one of the semi-ironclad rules of 40K which is to specialize in doing one thing well.

Autocannons are useful insofar as they have good range, so they can shoot almost anywhere, they have good S, so they can damage many vehicles, and they have decent rate of fire, so they can deal with infantry. There's virtually nothing in the game you could shoot them at that they're not SORTA good for killing.

The problem is that there's also nothing in the game that they're the best option for killing.

Like anything, it comes down to the price. If the price is right, there you go. So, for example, a Hydra is a pretty good deal. A DakkaPredator is a pretty good deal. A Russ Exterminator blows.

DarkHound wrote:
I should add I wasn't even really impressed by Lootas. A roll of three makes them worth it, but the rest of the time their fire is sub-par to terrible, especially for the points.

I don't know what to say to that. Lootas are one of the only rock solid units in the ork codex, there's really nothing that isn't excellent about them. If they're underwhelming to you it's probably because your ork opponent fields a single squad of 10 or something, instead of the 45 he should be using.

grankobot wrote:

DarkHound wrote:this is all in my head.

Yeah, probably. Generally speaking, lascannons cost twice as much (often more, look at the predator) as autocannons. They're nowhere near twice as useful.

That math seems simple enough to me

Eh, the Predators are a special case. When you are looking at them, you don't get to compare 2 Autocannons and a TL autocannon to the same in Lascannons. A Dakka Predator has the less expensive Heavy Bolters as sponsons. My Lascannon Predator has been in games with other Hybrid (Autocannon Turret, Lascannon Sponsons) Predators and the 35 points spent on the extra TL Lascannon has always made a very noticable difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

grankobot wrote:

DarkHound wrote:
I should add I wasn't even really impressed by Lootas. A roll of three makes them worth it, but the rest of the time their fire is sub-par to terrible, especially for the points.

I don't know what to say to that. Lootas are one of the only rock solid units in the ork codex, there's really nothing that isn't excellent about them. If they're underwhelming to you it's probably because your ork opponent fields a single squad of 10 or something, instead of the 45 he should be using.

The person fielding them was me, with two squads of 15. They are vulnerable and easy to send running (which is not directly related to the Autocannons), but like I said, unless they roll a 3 for their Heavy number their firing is subpar for the points with BS2. It is interesting, by rolling a two they can get by, but with a 3 they waste lots of extra pens dramatically overkilling the target. With Heavy 1 you'll be lucky to score a pen. Granted Lootas are great for infantry killing, but Boyz can do the same thing for less points.

I'd hate having to decide against any one of the weapons you have mentioned, DarkHound. I'd rather have some of each in my army. It's true, autocannon often fail to convincingly harm a tank on the penetrating roll, while I point my lascannon batteries at Fexes and Broadsides and Oblits just as often as at tanks. Still, against that Wave Serpent with its cursed energy field, against the Trukk with some MAN's on it or against Rhinos full of angry Marines, I am happy to have my autocannon.

Phryxis wrote:The issue with Autocannons is that they violate one of the semi-ironclad rules of 40K which is to specialize in doing one thing well.

Autocannons are useful insofar as they have good range, so they can shoot almost anywhere, they have good S, so they can damage many vehicles, and they have decent rate of fire, so they can deal with infantry. There's virtually nothing in the game you could shoot them at that they're not SORTA good for killing.

The problem is that there's also nothing in the game that they're the best option for killing.

That's actually not strictly true. Autocannons outperform any other IG weapon against AV10 &11, Wave Serpents, high toughness models with cover or invulnerable saves, (turboboosting bikes, greater demons, plague marines in cover). Autocannons also are extremely close to matching the lascannon against AV12 (6 lascannon hits yield 1 glance, three pens, while 12 autocannon hits yield 2 glances and 2 pens), and the heavy bolter against T4 (1 wound vs. 5/6 of a wound).

It's a narrow set of optimum targets, but it does include some dangerous things.

OTOH, the claim "the lascannon is twice the cost of an autocannon" is never correct, as both are upgrades to units. Not counting a special weapon, an IG squad with autocannon is 60pts, with lascannon it's 70pts, for 16% increase in cost. In HWS it's 75pts vs. 105pts, for ~45% increase in cost. Depending on your targets, the cost to upgrade to lascannons is a no brainer.

Melta guns: they solve almost anything for me.

Autocannons would only return to use from me if they give Chaos back something akin to Tank Hunter Vet skills...

DarkHound wrote:I've never been able to make Autocannons perform for me. It always seems like the 5+s to pen against even light transports is too steep, even when saturating a list with them. Even though they are cheaper and have more shots to offset their reduced strength, it seems to me one has to spend more points on them to get them to perform as a whole compared to a good Lascannon battery anyway. This has been a consistant problem for me. For example, my IG Lascannon Battery with Bring it Down scythes through transports, statistically getting Immobilized or worse 74.25% of the time. However, it takes two Autocannon batteries with Bring it Down to statistically match this (although they never seem to on the table). This is more expensive in points, KPs, orders (where applicable), table space and are unable to cover all vehicles. Maybe it my dice simply don't like Autocannons, and this is all in my head. Where do you guys stand?

Autocannons are flexible weapons, and as of now it is my preferred HW in line squads. They have worked for me enough, versus AV12. My heavier anti armor weapons are the manticore, basilisk (if both are fired indirectly, they hit side armor), and in the middle ground, meltaguns.

Lascannons AND autocannons.

Biased poll is Biased.

r3n3g8b0y wrote:Autocannons: against transports, tough hordes(tyranid warriors, 'ard boyz)
Lascannons: against light tanks(hammerheads, predators)
Mtlagunez: against tough tanks

r3n3g8b0y has the right idea. They are 3 different tools, and perform differently.

Autocannons are great vs. AV 10 vehicles. They work very well against MCs or DPs. Another strength with these weapons is the range, as getting within Melta gun range of that Nurgle/Warp-Timing DP is just bad news.

Lascannons are no longer the kings of anti-tank. They can still pop open rhinos very well, which is good, as they will force those blood angles to run across the board. They can also be used as anti MC as well, or to take down W2+ creatures such as oblits.

Melta guns are the king of AT. Rolling 2d6 for penetration, in combination with being AP1 gives this weapon an advantage in destroying vehicles. Each penetrating hit has a 50% of destroying the vehicle instead of a 33% for non AP1 weapons.
The biggest weakness of melta is range. Sure, your vet squad managed to destroy the death company land raider by getting within 6" to melta it down. Now there are a bunch of very angry marines who are coming out to show their anger.

I use Autocannons in my line squads, but I don't use them on anything tougher than light vehicles and transports. When they're not trying to slow down a mechanized assault by taking out Rhinos I keep them on tougher infantry; when paired with grenade launchers they can really put some holes in a tough squad.

Meltagnuz are still the best for anti-tank, but you probably won't get that veteran squad back unless they can go dive for some good cover.

In larger games it's worth mentioning that your own tanks can come in handy; pimped-out Executioners can lay down a storm of plasma that will make a mockery of transports and light tanks.

It's a crying shame you can't have railguns.
Killing tanks is all Tau can do well.

No missile launcher love :( Work horse of he imperium.

Razerous wrote:Lascannons AND autocannons.

Biased poll is Biased.

Eh, the poll was really an after thought. I didn't expect a divine trueth from it.

labmouse42 wrote:

r3n3g8b0y wrote:Autocannons: against transports, tough hordes(tyranid warriors, 'ard boyz)
Lascannons: against light tanks(hammerheads, predators)
Mtlagunez: against tough tanks

r3n3g8b0y has the right idea. They are 3 different tools, and perform differently.

Autocannons are great vs. AV 10 vehicles. They work very well against MCs or DPs. Another strength with these weapons is the range, as getting within Melta gun range of that Nurgle/Warp-Timing DP is just bad news.

Lascannons are no longer the kings of anti-tank. They can still pop open rhinos very well, which is good, as they will force those blood angles to run across the board. They can also be used as anti MC as well, or to take down W2+ creatures such as oblits.

The issue I have is that everything you wrote for the Autocannons is also true, if not more so due to AP2, for the Lascannon. Autocannons are simply not going to down a Carnifex with Extended Carapace, while Lascannons wound 2+ and ignore their armor.

They are a frustrating weapon.

I think they have a great range of potential targets, and some ideal targets as mentioned, and I'm sure someone could provide us with a mathhammer that finds them to be more efficient than LC batteries for AV10-11. The AC/GL combo is also very efficient in the line and vet squads, as the krak/frag choice helps the AC for most of it's targets.

Wounding, statistically speaking, is not a problem against most targets. Penetrating, statistically speaking, is at 50% for AV10. The problem, statistically speaking, is that you're only hitting with one shot out of the two.

Leaving statistics back at base: in a six turn game, alot rides on that wound or penetrate roll. Unless it's one of the ideal targets, you'd be feeling alot better if it was either a lascannon hit or you'd had the chance at more hits with a heavy bolter.

The two shots is what makes them frustrating for me. Sometimes they are glorious: the other day my AC HWS destroyed my buddies AV13 Predator (that's right, with glances), without BiD, on turn 1. Glorious! Probably the most glory that squad has seen in 5 years of war. Often they just miss and/or fail to penetrate the hits they do get. The real strength of them is the ability to lend their support to most of the targets on the other side, together with the range to get shots across. For that reason, I wouldn't build a list with just AC's, but having more of them than LC's or HB's is not a bad thing. The three weapons have narrow ideal target ranges; the AC overlaps into the other two, while the HB and LC don't overlap at all. Just make sure you have other ways to handle hordes and high AV.

10 pts is nice though, and can't be ignored when comparing it to the HB. Imo, that and the new glancing rules make the HB the one that got nerfed more with 5th: they now have a more narrow absoloute range of targets.

It's hard to love the missle launcher, as it's got the same problem as the AC: compromise, but at 15pts. I have ML's in my collection and have used them alot. They are weaker against vehicles now, of course. I do think that the new rules making them scatter has helped them alot, and I have been more and more impressed with frag shells. Deserves it's own thread, maybe.

Polonius wrote:Autocannons outperform any other IG weapon against AV10 &11

This is true. However, many marine players form a poor view of them as the twin-linked lascannon on the predator outperforms the autocannon against all vehicles. The only thing it's better at killing is infantry with a save of 4+ or better (and this comparison never gets made since you'd never use a TLLC against them anyway)

You are talking from a guard perspective and purely AT role. I will approach it from CSM perspective as they are a legitimate choice and multi-melta is out of the options much like IG.

Anti-Infantry- HB, AC, ML all legitimate choices.
Anti-Tank - AC, ML, LC all legitimate choices.

If we are talking the BEST for AT give me the lascannon but assuming I don't have unlimited points or I have something else to be primary AT vehicle, I may need a jack-of-all-trades weapon then I eliminate HB and LC and I am left with autocannons or missile launchers. This is where philosophy and BS skill make a difference. In prior additions, I would take the autocannon - 2 shots and 1.33 hits per turn at S7 just as good as .67 blast templates from the missile launcher at S4. If you believe in the scatter dice and your ballistic skill minus on the scatter, you probably have a better chance of wounding troops with the frag round than the 1.33 S7 autocannon hits. From an AT perspective... I think the ML and AC are equal choices with the ML having a range of AV 10 to 13 for effectiveness and the AC range being 10 to 12 but twice the shots each turn.

So CSM with AC or ML are the same cost. If you are looking for a heavy weapon to take out tanks OR troops, I think it is just a matter of style. (Despite the other statements... fear 15, 30 or 45 loota shots at your rhino or wave serpent... even with 1 shot, 15 lootas (autocannons fired by orks) they should average 5 hits so they cover the range of the vehicle result table on average. (one short) So if a 6 pens, statistically a loota squad will roll one 6 each firing round 83% of the time even with one shot.)

Scott-S6 wrote:

Polonius wrote:Autocannons outperform any other IG weapon against AV10 &11

This is true. However, many marine players form a poor view of them as the twin-linked lascannon on the predator outperforms the autocannon against all vehicles. The only thing is better at killing if infantry with a save of 4+ or better (and this comparison never gets made since you'd never use a TLLC against them anyway)

Unless my math is wrong, the AC still outperforms a TL-LC at BS4. On turn of TL-LC against AV11 is 8/9 hit time 2/3 chance to pen = 16/27 pens. The AC gets 4/3 hits times 1/2 chance to pen for 2/3 pens, or 18/27 pens. Now, against Wave Serpents, the TL-LC (limited to S8), is 8/9 hit times 1/3 chance to pen or 8/27 pens. The AC has 4/3 hits times 1/6 chance to pen for 4/18 pens, or 6/27, making the TL-LC the better choice.

Yes, your math is wrong Polonius. "The AC gets 4/3 hits times 1/2 chance to pen..." It has a half chance to atleast glance, but only a third chance to pen. With that factored in, the TL Lascannons has a 54% chance to pen, while the Autocannon has only a 44%. The twin-linked Lascannon is more expensive but is always the better choice (without talking about cost efficiency).

And yes, Lootas will statistically get one pen even if they roll a 1. If they roll a two, they'll get just under two, while a three will score them just under three. However, you spent 225 points on the unit, and it is dangerous vulnerable with a poor leadership and defensive stats. My Tri-Las Predator costs 165, will almost always score 2 pens and is very difficult to purge with AV13 and 48" range.

DarkHound wrote:
And yes, Lootas will statistically get one pen even if they roll a 1. If they roll a two, they'll get just under two, while a three will score them just under three. However, you spent 225 points on the unit, and it is dangerous vulnerable with a poor leadership and defensive stats. My Tri-Las Predator costs 165, will almost always score 2 pens and is very difficult to purge with AV13 and 48" range.

Yes, but if you're using Lootas as AT troops you're doing it wrong. The first and most important Ork AT weapon is ALWAYS the Power Klaw, I don't care what kind of list you're running. Lootas can shoot at tanks, sure, but that isn't their real function. The function of Lootas is to make MEQs sad.

A squad of 15 Lootas mathhammers out to this against a T4 model;
1 shot per; 15 shots, 5 hits, 4.17 wounds, 1.39 dead (3+)/2.1 dead (4+)
2 shots per; 30 shots, 10 hits, 8.33 wounds, 2.78 dead (3+) 4.17 dead (4+)
3 shots per; 45 shots, 15 hits, 12.5 wounds, 4.17 dead (3+) 6.25 dead(4+)

Lootas absolutely tear apart IG and Stormtroopers, most Tyranids, Tau and Kroot, basically any of the troops and most of the elites of any army. As you can see above, even a unit in cover really suffers when a squad of Lootas draws a bead on it.

Now, AT functionality; you're right, Lootas aren't the perfect AT unit. They are quite effective at transport-popping and decent against AV 12, but really they need to focus on carving up troops.

Since an autocannon is essentially a Deffgun with a guaranteed 2 shots per turn, the same probably holds true for them. Use autocannons as fire support against tough infantry; leave the lascannons and meltas to deal with the tanks.

Lascannons, 3rd edition all the way baby

this suprises me, Autocannons are usually a stict offensive weapon, and I'd say use them to harrow heavy infantry and elites into cover (useless against orks) Although, I'm a Marine, not a guardsmen so I'm not sure if there is a difference between a predators weaps and a guardsmans weaps
Admittently, my Pred has a full compliment of 2 storm bolters, a hunterkiller missile and 2 lascannons to go with the humble autocannon.

Lascannon or Autocannon vs AV12

Lascannon
glance 8.33%
pen 25%

Autocannon
glance 16.67%
pen 16.67%

With the added cost of the lascannon and the autocannons flexibility, in my opinion the autocannon is better.

I like Autocannons for their flexibility. I'm not an extremely experienced or competitive player but I think having a good 'all-rounder' weapon helps mitigate some of my own tactical shortcomings.

In order to use weapons that are very specialized for their role, I find that you have to be a bit more careful with your placement, movement and target priority. Autocannons are more forgiving of errors since no matter where you put them or move them, they're still bound to have a decent target.

DoW

HBs are for infantry, ACs for infantry over T5. Autocannon are also great for MCs and Av10, 11, and 12. Consider that for the price of a lascannon, you get two autocannon with twice the shots. That's 4 shots at S7 versus 1 at S9. Lascannon are best against heavy armor, Av12, 13 and 14. And are fun to use when trying to hand out some instant death, or deny an armor save here or there. The Las's lack of number of shots is really a huge weakness. Also a decient list will have a way to be mobile. Take your autocannons on a ride in a Valk or Chimera, and use them to punch side and rear armor. Bring in a squad of scout sentinels with outflank, and start driving ACs rounds into rear armor. Definately bring Las to answer that need for anti-Av14, but don't leave out your bread and butter.

If you wanna make a gunline, I would recommend HBs, and even mortars, because you can get 4 mortars for the price of a Las.

I will agree Las work best on a Vendetta, but I will not say they don't work in HWSs, especially if you have orders available.

Melta is gak, IMO. Any IG list that WANTS to get into assaulting range with their enemy is a badly written list... as it doesn't appeal to the strengths of the army. Range, Firepower, and Armor.