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METLAGUNZ RUELZ!!1!one

There have been so many mistakes throughout this topic, I cant even remember them all.

Autocannons are far superior to LCs for AV10, 11, and 12

If you take a TL lascannon turret on a predator tank you are throwing points away. The autocannon is FREE. You are replacing an autocannon for a LC for 35 points. Buy the lascannon sponsons, because they are just adding to the tank, hence a combi pred.

Autocannons are cheaper and better at destroying light vehicles in the other cases as well. For example, CSM squads get an autocannon for 20 and a lascannon for 35.

Lascannons are not cost efficient in most cases. Meltas are better for Av13+, and Autocannons are better at AV12-. ACs are also the best marine killers at a range when in cover.

I have 6 of them currently in my CSM list. Theyre amazingly reliable.

Why isn't there an option for power klaws in this thread? They're far more reliable than either autocannons OR lascannons, with the added fillip of also being amazingly effective against MCs, MEQs, TEQs, horde infantry, mech lists, everything really. . .

Night Lords, cite sources for your information (generally mathhammer is acceptable).

Mathmatically, Lascannons are superior at AV12 (33% chance to pen vs the autocannon's combined 22%), and against Monsterous Creatures. Against AV10 Autocannons are superior (66% to the Lascannon's 54%), but they are equal against AV11 (both coming in at 43%). So, infact Night Lords, the Autocannon is better at one thing, AV10 and not by a large margin. (All of this was at BS4.)

As has been shown before, the price of the gun itself is deceptive compared to how much it increases the squad's price (generally 15% increase). So, it comes down to whether or not you can afford the 15 extra points for increased effectiveness against: multi-wound T4 models, AV12,13 and 14, TEQs, MEQs and Monsterous Creatures.

DarkHound wrote:Night Lords, cite sources for your information (generally mathhammer is acceptable).

Mathmatically, Lascannons are superior at AV12 (33% chance to pen vs the autocannon's combined 22%), and against Monsterous Creatures. Against AV10 Autocannons are superior (66% to the Lascannon's 54%), but they are equal against AV11 (both coming in at 43%). So, infact Night Lords, the Autocannon is better at one thing, AV10 and not by a large margin. (All of this was at BS4.)

As has been shown before, the price of the gun itself is deceptive compared to how much it increases the squad's price (generally 15% increase). So, it comes down to whether or not you can afford the 15 extra points for increased effectiveness against: multi-wound T4 models, AV12,13 and 14, TEQs, MEQs and Monsterous Creatures.

Why are you working it at BS4 when we're talking about Guardsmen? Run the math again at BS3 and see what you get.

Yes, sir! Anymore orders, sir?!

Lascannons at BS3
AV10 42%
AV11 33%
AV12 25%

Autocannon at BS3
AV10 50%
AV11 33%
AV12 17%

EDIT: While I'm at it, here are the statistics on the Predator's Autocannon vs Lascannon issue:

TL Lascannon at BS4
AV10 69%
AV11 54%
AV12 41%
AV13 27%
AV14 14%

Autocannon at BS4
AV10 66%
AV11 43%
AV12 22%

So, for 35 points the Lascannon becomes better than the Autocannon at literally anything except anti-GEQ.

Ignoring ballistic skill because that does not change between weapons:

AC vs
AV 10: 12 hits result in 6 pens, 2 glances
AV 11: 12 hits result in 4 pens, 2 glances
AV 12: 12 hits result in 2 pens, 2 glances
AV 13: 12 hits result in 0 pens, 2 glances

LC vs
AV 10: 6 hits result in 5 pens, 1 glance
AV 11: 6 hits result in 4 pens, 1 glance
AV 12: 6 hits result in 3 pens, 1 glance
AV 13: 6 hits result in 2 pens, 1 glance

AC is superior vs AV 10 and 11.
LC is slightly superior (trade a glance for a pen) vs AV 12.
LC is superior vs AV 13.

Hopefully this clears some things up.

Honestly I think that you need a little of each weapon in your list to do best, but if you are sticking with only one type of weapon you should use melta guns.

Have the points cost been considered here? I mean for 1 lascannon you have 2 autocannons, so that is 4 shots versus 1 shot of the lascannon, and also factor in cover saves, as in reality good players will find means to have their key vehicles get cover saves...

@Freddieyu1, 'ere you go.

Polonius wrote:OTOH, the claim "the lascannon is twice the cost of an autocannon" is never correct, as both are upgrades to units. Not counting a special weapon, an IG squad with autocannon is 60pts, with lascannon it's 70pts, for 16% increase in cost. In HWS it's 75pts vs. 105pts, for ~45% increase in cost. Depending on your targets, the cost to upgrade to lascannons is a no brainer.

I think it worth pointing out, using ph34r's data, that Lascannons still acceptably gets a kill against targets the Autocannon is technically better at.

DarkHound wrote:@Freddieyu1, 'ere you go.

Polonius wrote:OTOH, the claim "the lascannon is twice the cost of an autocannon" is never correct, as both are upgrades to units. Not counting a special weapon, an IG squad with autocannon is 60pts, with lascannon it's 70pts, for 16% increase in cost. In HWS it's 75pts vs. 105pts, for ~45% increase in cost. Depending on your targets, the cost to upgrade to lascannons is a no brainer.

I think it worth pointing out, using ph34r's data, that Lascannons still acceptably gets a kill against targets the Autocannon is technically better at.

Ah thanks...anyway in reality IG lists pack multiple kinds of weapons...picking the correct target for the weapon is part of learning how to play IG (in fact any 40k army)....

I dont know how IG works. However, for CSM, Autocannons are 20, and LCs are 35. For CSM, Autocannons > LCs

Night Lords wrote:I dont know how IG works. However, for CSM, Autocannons are 20, and LCs are 35. For CSM, Autocannons > LCs

Ok...if you didn't want CSM stats, you should have put IG in the title. CSM and IG are the two armies that utilize them the most.

Night Lords wrote:Ok...if you didn't want CSM stats, you should have put IG in the title. CSM and IG are the two armies that utilize them the most.

I'm sorry, but you haven't provided any evidence for your claims yet, except that Autocannons are cheaper. By that logic, Grots are better than Ork Boyz because they are cheaper.

Let's talk about CSM then. The unit you must be refering to is the Havoc Squad. They can take 3 Lascannons for 150 points vs 4 Autocannons at 140. Given ph34r's model, the Lascannons still win at what they win at, and the Autocannons get a longer lead at what they are better at. However, the Autocannons are still only better against AV10, 11 and GEQs.

Your math is way off.

3 lascannons is 105 points. 4 autocannons is 80. At 5 marines min its +75 points.

So 155 for 4 ACs, and 145 for 2 lascannons.

8 shots vs 2 lcs.


-----

AV10 and 11 ACs win

AV12:

ACs 8 shots - 0.89 pen, 0.89 glance = 1.78 damage....0.89 with cover

LCs - 0.67 pen, 0.22 glance = 0.89 damage.....0.45 with cover

AV13 they both lose. Lascannons have ~7% to destroy, which would be fine if they had more than 2 shots. Waste of time. Meltas are the answer for Av13

-----

Autocannons also outperform lascannons against MEQs in cover.

2 lascannons: 0.57 dead marines

8 autocannons: 1.38 wounds

Actually, they outshoot them even when theyre not in cover. Very interesting.

DarkHound wrote:@Freddieyu1, 'ere you go.

Polonius wrote:OTOH, the claim "the lascannon is twice the cost of an autocannon" is never correct, as both are upgrades to units. Not counting a special weapon, an IG squad with autocannon is 60pts, with lascannon it's 70pts, for 16% increase in cost. In HWS it's 75pts vs. 105pts, for ~45% increase in cost. Depending on your targets, the cost to upgrade to lascannons is a no brainer.

I think it worth pointing out, using ph34r's data, that Lascannons still acceptably gets a kill against targets the Autocannon is technically better at.

Yeah, but why would you pay more for "acceptably" when you can get better for less.

Also against AV 12, 3 LCs, assuming all hit, score 1.5 pens and 0.5 glances. The 4 ACs score, assuming all hit, score 1.33 pens and 1.33 glances. Slightly worse at penning, but greatly improved at glancing, and at a lesser cost. Of course these values will be less once BS is factored in but they will be less at the same rate. LCs are only significantly or at all better vs AV 13, and at that point you want to break out the melta guns anyway.

What army are we talking about by the way? Then I can actually factor points costs in, and most likely prove LC to be worse still.

Can I still quibble with the poll question at this late stage? I don't think autocannons belong in a question that asks which weapon you prefer for 'anti-tank', as they can't even touch AV14. I know there are lots of 'tanks' out there with AV13 but we Guard commanders scoff at labelling them such. For anti-tank, the debate is truly las/melta, and I don't really think that is much of a debate either. It's like comparing apples and oranges - they are both fruit, and both will give you the yummy goodness you need. The tactics of eating one or the other simply differ slightly. Lets see some mathhammer comparing those two, since both are coming up so much here. While we're at it, can someone show me the HB's math on AV10/11 too?

I run a gunline, with regulars and HWS's, and I've always had a mix of weapons. I think the AC's have a place in it - they are reliable for taking out transports (though this thread has convinced me the LC's are not far behind), they can lend support to both the HB's and LC's, and they are relatively cheap. I just make sure I have other ways to deal with hordes and medium/heavy vehicles. If you know exactly what you're going to be up against, you could probably do better without them, but they are a decent choice to bolster a balanced list.

There you go Night Lords! That's what I like to see.

Now, I was simply adding the body to the gun, since they'd buy the same number of extra bodies and they were irrelevant to the firepower of the unit.

At ph34r, you are looking at it from the wrong persepctive. From the Autocannon's perspective it does better against AV10 and 11, but only "acceptably" or worse against *everything else.

I started the thread about the weapons in general, but had the Imperial Guard in mind. Price and effectiveness are in the IG's favor due to the avaliability of order and cheapness of the platform, so let's talk about other things. What about Long Fangs who, in my opinion, are the only reasonably priced MEQ heavy weapon team?

*Excluding MEQs in cover or GEQs.

Sure, mech is more competitive nowadays. But I do believe that if you do plan on taking infantry platoons instead of or in addition to mechvets, lascannons are the best HW choice available.

Vendettas are zomgwtf imba op model that not only provides cheap twinlinked lascannons, but on a FAST, TRANSPORT, AV12 side, Scout, model.

Hydras, on the other hand, is merely solid for the point cost. With most mech guard taking a few vendettas already, most guard fire bases have no need for more lascannons. Most opponents aren't taking 2+ AV13+ models that can't be dealt with long range AV14 kill options and vendettas combined already. So they add autocannons since anti-AV10-12 is a gap since it is common and vehicles don't do the job quite that well.

-------
If there was no vendetta unit, or that hydra costs 55 points while vendetta costs 160, you'd see tons more lascannon using guardsman firebases.

DarkHound wrote:There you go Night Lords! That's what I like to see.

Now, I was simply adding the body to the gun, since they'd buy the same number of extra bodies and they were irrelevant to the firepower of the unit.

At ph34r, you are looking at it from the wrong persepctive. From the Autocannon's perspective it does better against AV10 and 11, but only "acceptably" or worse against *everything else.

I started the thread about the weapons in general, but had the Imperial Guard in mind. Price and effectiveness are in the IG's favor due to the avaliability of order and cheapness of the platform, so let's talk about other things. What about Long Fangs who, in my opinion, are the only reasonably priced MEQ heavy weapon team?

*Excluding MEQs in cover or GEQs.

I believe that I am looking at the situation correctly.
AC are cheaper AND more effective vs infantry in cover. They are more effective for the same points against infantry out of cover.
AC are cheaper and more effective vs AV 10 and 11. They are cheaper and slightly less effective vs AV 12, but it's practically a tie.
vs AV 13 lascannons win, but they are not particularly effective as AC are vs low armor.
vs AV 14 lascannons win but are quite bad. AV 14 needs melta to be dealt with realistically.

AC has many more pros than LC.

Thanks for the advice makr! However, autocannons (and multilasers) are also excellent versus eldar bike councils, (as they instakill as good as a lascannon), which are fielded by a regular opponent of mine, and lascannons are relegated to s8 versus his eldar skimmers, thus minimizing their effectiveness.

I do have a comment though...while I love the stats, I view them as guides. I am a firm believer in more shots = more chances for them to roll on the vehicle damage chart = more chances to kill. In games of 40k the odds are usually 1 extreme or the other, thus with luck I will get more hits using AC on av12 vehicles than I ever will with the 1 shot of LC. In addition, in my experience you cannot rely on orders with a ld of 8, so I consider them a bonus only. I also use GL together with the AC in the squad, thus increases the odds too in getting a result vs av 10,11,12 vehicles. I do love to scrimp on the points, and I use the 5 points per squad saved to upgrade the special weapons in my chimera borne veteran and PCS squads. These squads have served me well in friendly as well as competitive play.

I use lascannons in the vendetta though, as well as the manticore and basilisk. These are my prime armor busters, and in the recent local GT (check my battle report dated Nov 28-29 this year) where I co shared best overall, the artillery were the real heavy armor busters versus land raiders and ork battlewagons. The meltaguns plus the autocannons in both the line squads as well as the hydra mopped up everything else. The vendetta I wasn't too satisfied with, as the damage rolls were low. I think you find in 5th the issue is not penetrating enemy vehicles, it is the result of the damage roll that is iffy. Lascannons are just too expensive to spam properly in mech or semi-mech lists except in a vendetta. Ina gunline however, i will gladly spam them, and I will intend to do so in my new lists.

Cheers!

Without going deeper into statistics (which has been done exhaustingly in this thread ) I'd prefer the AC most of the time. It's cheaper pointswise, it's about as reliable up to AV 12 as a LC, can be used for antihorde better (which isn't that great too... one or two dead boys doesn't make that a difference) but going into tactics it doesn't make as juicy a target as LCs usually do. Most players understimate ACs while they fear LCs, so the latter get shot up more often (my experience in my gaming group, ymmv) which makes the cut for me. Autocannons ftw!

bias against the tau this thread is.

Twin-linked Railguns
Hammerhead submission rounds
Fusion blasters

Railguns are the hands down best for super long range anti-tank

Superscope wrote:bias against the tau this thread is.

Twin-linked Railguns
Hammerhead submission rounds
Fusion blasters

Railguns are the hands down best for super long range anti-tank

With it's long range and ap of 1, you can't argue with that..it has only 1 weakness, and that is it must be fired direct..hence there is a chance the vehicle gets a cover save....

The medusa with the bastion breacher shell is also great, but it's range is shorter, and it also has to fire direct...which is why I love the manticore..st10 ordnance with d3 pie plates per rocket, fired indirectly means usually no cover save, and means you shoot versus the side armor....

METLA!!YEAHZ!!1!ONE11!MOAR!!METLA!!1

I always thought that autocannons were for anti heavy infantry and maybe, maybe some vehicles. Most of the vehicles I've ever faced were SM so they don't do too much, when it comes to using non-antitank weapons against tanks, I have a sentinel with multi-lasers sneak up to their side or rear and let loose, shook a vindicator for an entire game once.

But yeah, autocannons as HW teams are infantry only in my mind.

halonachos wrote:I always thought that autocannons were for anti heavy infantry and maybe, maybe some vehicles. Most of the vehicles I've ever faced were SM so they don't do too much, when it comes to using non-antitank weapons against tanks, I have a sentinel with multi-lasers sneak up to their side or rear and let loose, shook a vindicator for an entire game once.

But yeah, autocannons as HW teams are infantry only in my mind.

They'll do something to marines- shake up and destroy dreads, pop rhino chassis based vehicles (razorback/whirlwind), I'd prefer 2 AC shots vs a Landspeeder than 1 ML or LC. Turbo boosting marine bikers have a 3++ anyway, and a AC still wounds on a 2+

With ML's they perform a nice little all rounder position in an arsenal... Make sure you have the tool to deal with specifics though (meltas and lascannons for armour, some anti horde/MEQ gear etc)

These guys shred elite infantry/bikers with 12 str 7 AP 4 shots--all twin-linked, they also wreck speeders, and those trusty company command squads

I know 375 points and all my elite slots, I ussually run the with Master of the FOrge so I can put them in Heavy Support......Fun-Fun-Fun!!!

I never ever shoot them at tanks...MM Speeders!!!

halonachos wrote:I always thought that autocannons were for anti heavy infantry and maybe, maybe some vehicles. Most of the vehicles I've ever faced were SM so they don't do too much, when it comes to using non-antitank weapons against tanks, I have a sentinel with multi-lasers sneak up to their side or rear and let loose, shook a vindicator for an entire game once.

But yeah, autocannons as HW teams are infantry only in my mind.

rhinos, razorbacks, land speeders, and dreads are perfect targets for autocannons (and for the first 3, GL as well as multilasers too). And my experience with scout sentinels and multilasers is mostly positive (remember, if close enough they can assault, 2 st5 attacks versus a10 rear armor can work).

The objective is not to always destroy..that is statistically improbable. For me immobilizing transports, or shaken/stunned/weapon destroyed versus shooty vehicles are already good results, as the enemy is disturbed enough to not be able to maximize his army during his turn. This gives time and opportunity for the chimera borne component to close in and do their job in the middle. Versus mech eldar this is even more so, since it may force the eldar player to disembark prematurely, and if he does that an good IG player can capitalize on that to his advantage.

rdlb wrote:Pew ++

Sir I say Awesome. Just Awesome!