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hey guys my name is devyn and i need special tactics to beat tyranids and space marines it would really help because i can never beat my stepdad that plays space marines and i need also more help with my brother that plays the tyranids please help

If you could provide more information as to what type of armies you face and what they use mostly as well as what you have access to that would help a lot.

ahhhhm im fighting space marines and tyranids

He meant like the actual unit names and such.

oh then just normal Chaos marines and Khorne berzerkers and Bikers and also a Chaos Rhino

get some oblitorators and lash princes lol

Reaver83 wrote:get some oblitorators and lash princes lol

Don't even joke about that infront of the new players. They don't understand yet and you'll get ideas stuck in their head.

Chaos Marine, it would also be a great deal of help if you listed what your opponents use so we know what you are facing. After all, knowing is half the battle.

Arlight here is what you do Chaos Marine so we can explain it better you seem to be rather young. In your next post

Make a list of what models you have
Chaos Marine w/ plasma gun

Make a List of what your Dad plays with for example
Rhino
Landspeeder

Make a List of what the tyranids have
Hive Tyrant
Genestealers.


Then we will be able to help you a little bit more.

Also, totally reporting Lash/Obliterator recommendation.

Ladies and Gentleman,

Perhaps we could use this thread as a chance to create a somewhat comprehensive 5th edition tactica for CSM. As a brand-spankin new CSM player, I also have pretty much no idea how to use these things effectively. They seem really great at shooting, but don't have enough range or general firepower to be a shooty army and stop those Orks and Tyranids in their tracks. They seem pretty good at assaulting, but lack any speed to get into combat quickly except some very slow armor 11 Rhinos which take 2 turns to get to those dang shooty armies like IG and Tau. They also seem to struggle with surrounding and pinning down those pesky Eldar and DE. The only armies they seem to be able to smack down is regular Space Marines and the ever-lame Necrons.
So I'm sure our young friend here, as well as myself would appreciate any tips on effective strategies to deal with the above-mentioned issues and which units are best at performing those strategies.

On your mark, get set, GO!!!

Just shooting blind here, as I'm still a fledgling Chaos player, but here's what I've got...

Mech up.

And bring your Terminators.

-Sits back down-

Mech up would indicate bringing like 6 Land Raiders, 3 Heavies and 3 Elite Terminator Transports. That's a minimum of 1590pts for that, plus the mandatory 2 CSM squads at 150pts and a Lord at 90 which comes to a dandy 1830pts. Would such an army be feasable?

Or the other transport that costs significantly less than a landraider carrying squads with icons so terminators can deep strike in....

But like I said, the paint is still drying on my spiky marines.

Is deepstriking terminators really a good idea? They drop in and do a round of shooting but can't assault so they get lit up by the entire other armies. Does the deepstriking terminators tactic ever actually work?

chaosmarine17 wrote:hey guys my name is devyn and i need special tactics to beat tyranids and space marines it would really help because i can never beat my stepdad that plays space marines and i need also more help with my brother that plays the tyranids please help

In general, the recipe for Chaos is fairly easy.

1) We are a troop heavy army, if you aren't using 50% of your points on your troops, you're doing something wrong.
2) Since we're an elite army, try not to give everything mass upgrades. Remember that quantity has a quality all its own.
3) Everything should be in a Rhino unless you have a really good reason not to.
4) Our fast attack options are just ok, we tend to ignore them for other units.
5) Our best Elites are probably Termicide (3 Combi-Melta Terminators). You deepstrike next to a big target (Land Raider) fry it and then probably die next turn.
6) There is alot of debate about what Heavy is the best but things usually work better in pairs.

So I'm basically seeing something like:

HQ-Daemon Prince w/ Wings, Warptime
Elites-3 Terminators w/ 3 Combi-Meltas
Troops-At least 2 250pt 10 mans with champs and powerfists in rhinos
Heavy-Either 2 Defilers or 2 Vindicators, and a unit of 3 Obliterators

Is this a typical core? How exactly do you use it? Do you sit back and shoot and then counter-assault?

minigun762 wrote:In general, the recipe for Chaos is fairly easy.

1) We are a troop heavy army, if you aren't using 50% of your points on your troops, you're doing something wrong.
2) Since we're an elite army, try not to give everything mass upgrades. Remember that quantity has a quality all its own.
3) Everything should be in a Rhino unless you have a really good reason not to.
4) Our fast attack options are just ok, we tend to ignore them for other units.
5) Our best Elites are probably Termicide (3 Combi-Melta Terminators). You deepstrike next to a big target (Land Raider) fry it and then probably die next turn.
6) There is alot of debate about what Heavy is the best but things usually work better in pairs.

This poster has summed it up quite well.

To distill even further:

Except at the very highest levels of competition, Daemon Princes with Wings are the most efficient HQ choice in the Chaos codex.
Plague Marines in a rhino are one of the most resilient troop choices in the entire game.
Termicide (3x Chaos Terms deepstriking with 3x combi meltas) are one of the better suicide/speedbump units in 40k.
Obliterators are the most versatile heavy support options in the entire game.

If you run a rhino-heavy army (like 4+ rhinos) filled with plague marines armed with special weapons backed by Daemon Princes and Obliterators with deep striking Terminator support, you will probably wipe the floor with your Dad and Brother. When you get better/more experienced you can play around with combinations of Berzerkers and regular C:SM and Daemon Prince variants.

This is a wonderful chance for all of you to read the article in my sig and post in the discussion thread at the bottom of it Let's look at a few things here.

-What generally makes CSM different from SM?

-fewer guns, but +1A
-fewer fancy vehicles, a few specialized Heavy choices though
-Daemons!

-What are we lacking?

-3+ invulns.
-Dakka-heavy units
-Cheap things of any sort
-Mobility!

Just going from here, we should try to cover out weaknesses while maximizing our advantages. Here's what I run at 1000 points:

Daemon Prince - 175
Wings, MoN, Warptime

Daemon Prince - 175
Wings, MoN, Warptime

Summoned Greater Daemon - 100

Chaos Space Marines x5 - 90
Champ
Rhino, extra TL Bolter - 40

Chaos Space Marines x5 - 90
Champ
Rhino, extra TL Bolter - 40

Havocs x5 - 155
4x Autocannons (or Missile Launchers)

Havocs x5 - 135
4x Heavy Bolters

1000 pts.

This list gives me the most cost-effective volume of Dakka in our book (Havocs are cheaper and IMO better at 1000 pts or less, and the Rhinos have 4 TL shots at 12") while also giving 3 T6 W4 MCs that make up for your Mobility issue by flying or starting off close to the enemy. I guarantee the opponent won't be firing at the Havocs the first couple of turns with what little long-range firepower is typically brought at 1000 points. That being said, the number 1 rule of playing Chaos Marines: Do NOT take something unless you have a good reason. Yes, you could kit out a bunch of noise marines. Yes, you could take a squad of Thousand Sons and give all sorts of expensive Psychic powers. Yes, you could take a Dreadnought and hope it doesn't freak out on you. But why? There are better, cheaper solutions to the same problems in the book. If anyone has any questions feel free to PM me

sourclams wrote:
Except at the very highest levels of competition, Daemon Princes with Wings are the most efficient HQ choice in the Chaos codex.
Plague Marines in a rhino are one of the most resilient troop choices in the entire game.
Termicide (3x Chaos Terms deepstriking with 3x combi meltas) are one of the better suicide/speedbump units in 40k.
Obliterators are the most versatile heavy support options in the entire game.

If you run a rhino-heavy army (like 4+ rhinos) filled with plague marines armed with special weapons backed by Daemon Princes and Obliterators with deep striking Terminator support, you will probably wipe the floor with your Dad and Brother.

And you come to the current power gamer Chaos list.
2x Daemon Princes (Lash or Nurgle Warptime)
2-3 Termicide
4-5 Rhinos of Berserkers/Plague Marines
2-3 pairs of Oblits

adjust based on point level of the game

So even though 2/3 of the time your terminators will scatter away from that expensive tank you were trying to kill, how is this considered effective? 105pts to take out 150+ pts based on a 1/3 chance doesn't seem to be a very good gamble...

I'm going to have to disagree that Lash/Oblitz is that grand. I've tabled more than one Lash/Oblit player by overrunning them with regular CSM. Oblitz still get insta-gibbed and are only T4 (though you'd be stupid if they didn't have cover at least). 'zerkers aren't that great, and termicides are fun and useful, but not terribly reliable. Those kind of lists are by no means an auto-win like the internet would have you believe. Two T5 MCs will go down really quick every game, and the Sorcs don't have near enough hitting power to make up for the targetability.

@Slick: You should have icons through your whole army.

I understand how the Icons can be really effective, what I'm worried about is how the heck I get within 12 inches of an army to use them effectively. It seems whenever I try to roll up the board in my Rhinos, they either get lit up by a shooty army like IG and Tau, or 18" charged and smashed by Orks and Nids, or completely outmaneuvered(spelling?) by Eldar and DE. These are my deboggles I can't seem to wrap my head around to stop from gettin my butt kicked.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:I'm going to have to disagree that Lash/Oblitz is that grand. I've tabled more than one Lash/Oblit player by overrunning them with regular CSM. Oblitz still get insta-gibbed and are only T4 (though you'd be stupid if they didn't have cover at least). 'zerkers aren't that great, and termicides are fun and useful, but not terribly reliable. Those kind of lists are by no means an auto-win like the internet would have you believe. Two T5 MCs will go down really quick every game, and the Sorcs don't have near enough hitting power to make up for the targetability.

@Slick: You should have icons through your whole army.

Oh I'd hardly say that they're Auto-win but they're one of the most competitive lists Chaos can do.
The others being Chaoszilla (which is a win big/lose big kinda list) and CSM spamming (atleast in my opinion its highly competitive).

Lash is getting weaker as more and more armies mech up and get anti-Psyker gear but the list is easy to swap things out for.
Lash Princes can be replaced by Nurgle DPs with Warptime/Rot and Oblits can be replaced by Combi-Predators/Vindicators/Defilers

slickpcm wrote:I understand how the Icons can be really effective, what I'm worried about is how the heck I get within 12 inches of an army to use them effectively. It seems whenever I try to roll up the board in my Rhinos, they either get lit up by a shooty army like IG and Tau, or 18" charged and smashed by Orks and Nids, or completely outmaneuvered(spelling?) by Eldar and DE. These are my deboggles I can't seem to wrap my head around to stop from gettin my butt kicked.

I don't know you but it sounds like you're just having tactics issues, not list issues. IG can be a pain, but if you stack rhinos to get cover saves/deny LOS, pop smoke at the first chance you get and choose whether it's smarter to move 12 or 6, you'll get there with at least a couple. I've played against IG Multilaser Spam, SM Lascannon spam (soooo much nastier than it sounds >.< OMG, so hard to deal with) and DE Lance/Plasma cannon equivalent spam, but I still manage to get there with a couple at least. If you're getting charged by Orks and Nids, stay back more then and shoot some. We have CC weapons and guns, and should use both to full effect. It sounds like you need some good covering fire too which a a single squad of Oblitz won't cover, sadly. You need at least a few good 48" or 36" weapons in there (the Autocannon Havoc squad is cheap, a low priority target and unloads a healthy amount of good strength firepower, especially for our Dex). Eldar are just a pin, especially those damn RoWa. Pick your targets, because that's all your likely to get, then prepare for whatever they're going to do. At least if you keep them moving they aren't shooting as much. Also, pick your beatsticks carefully. Daemon get 4 to 6 attacks, and a couple of those will miss. When an entire squad gets to hit back, that really sucks. Double-charge targets, stack the odds in your favor. We're usually outnumbered, especially if you use a lot of cult marines, so you have to thin it to your favor because our fancy guys still die just like their 6 point Ork boy. We get extra killyness, not protection

From what I'm gathering from all the comments here, its sounds like in order to be effective against ALL other armies in 40k, 2 units of 2 Obliterators is the minimum requirement. They're hard to kill and can move and shoot their insanely diverse weapons allowing me to down those dang Eldar/DE transports. They give obvious MC and horde smashing power, and they can also deepstrike which gives me the edge against those dang IG tanks and Tau skimmers/broadsides. Maybe that's what's missing from my tactics, long range superiority to mitigate my immobility.

Covering fire is huuuge in a CSM army. Try messing around with what works for you though. Dakka Preds can be fun (only take the Dakka options) and the min-sized Havoc squad hanging out in area terrain is nice. Oblitz are very good as well, but you can get more shots with other options for the same points too. Their versatility makes it so they're never a waste of points unless you spend too many on them

slickpcm wrote:From what I'm gathering from all the comments here, its sounds like in order to be effective against ALL other armies in 40k, 2 units of 2 Obliterators is the minimum requirement.

Not at all, I run a total of zero because I prefer number of shots to versatility. Outside of 12", all youll be using is a lascannon or plasma cannon (which arnt fantastic to say the least). Havocs & preds are cheaper and get more shots, plus theyre much much harder to kill from long range

Night Lords wrote:

slickpcm wrote:From what I'm gathering from all the comments here, its sounds like in order to be effective against ALL other armies in 40k, 2 units of 2 Obliterators is the minimum requirement.

Not at all, I run a total of zero because I prefer number of shots to versatility. Outside of 12", all youll be using is a lascannon or plasma cannon (which arnt fantastic to say the least). Havocs & preds are cheaper and get more shots, plus theyre much much harder to kill from long range

Its a good place to start if you have no idea what you want to use because they're flexible and adaptable.

I prefer a pair of Defilers because the absorb fire better and the combination of Battle Cannon plus being decent in HtH combat makes them better mobile support units in my mind.

I know some people use Combi-Predators to maximize the cheap heavy weapons they have.
Some use Vindicators for big AP2 pie plates.
Some even use Havocks as they're among the most durable shooting option.

I find that the Havoc's CSM-like combat abilities are what put them over the top in terms of providing support: aside from providing more firepower than Obliterators, they better resist the Deep Strikers, Outflankers, and assault troops that otherwise mop the floor with Obliterators.

If you want a bodyguard for a Deep Striking Lord or Sorcerer, or close support for a Deep Strike army, they're what you want. For T1 cross field support though? Havocs, all the way: much better at cracking open transports and considerably cheaper than Obliterators.

Call me nuts, but why would you EVER DS Obitz? I've seen a few people mention it, but why waste those shots?

Because sticking a Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour in with a unit of Chaos Terminators wastes his Fearless and his combat ability makes up for the Obliterators' lack of prowess. Likewise a Sorcerer does the same while increasing the unit's shooting ability significantly.

Deep Strike means that you can get them in close where they can use their template and melta weapons effectively. It also decreases their exposure to enemy anti-tank fire, to which they are more vulnerable than Terminators thanks to Instant Death. Starting on the field with three Lascannons is nice until you realise that Havocs can start on the field with four Lascannons for slightly cheaper. Or three and a Rhino.

So basically the answer is: why would you ever start Obliterators on the board, people do it, but why waste those shots?