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So I saw an almost heated debate get started with a person asking for advice on making a model and turned into people liking/disliking anime. Calling it a teen fad blah blah and all that good jazz. If anybody looks down far enough to see this while its still a "hot" topic id like to see some opinions. I personally am on the fanatic side as I have 2 anime tattoos and will have another in the near future. With that said flame on.

Edit: cause I cant spell :3

Personally i dont get the whole thing. i see people read fanfiction of naruto during lunch on the computor. and these people are the textbook definition of neckbeard.
The overweight girls that are into anime are the worst in my school. there crazy.
But then again im a teen playing with toy soldiers and look at bols at school so who am i to judge

I am on a middle ground when it comes to anime.

Yea I like Anime but I am not obsessed with it. And I actually really hate the kind of people that "obsess" over it.

Now I'm always up for some Bleach or the older Gundam series.

yeah bleach is awesome.most anime is cool. most fans are cool. but im talking about the people that love any anime there is no matter what it is. those are the scary ones.

So you and I basically agree garret?

I've enjoyed some of the more mature ones in my day. Personally, what bugs me most are the kiddies who go nuts about it but haven't even bothered to watch the genre classics, like 'Akira.'

My problem with it is the way that most characters in anime express there emotions in a exaggerated yet somehow still 2 dimensional way. For example, those huge beads of sweat to represent embarrassment, or the way alot of characters express confusion with a sexual-sounding moan is a little annoying.

My other beef with it is that it opens up doors for all sorts of sexual deviancy. I mean, don;t get me wrong, I'll do some kinky gak, but I draw the line at loli (pedophilia), gurro (necrophilla/general fuckedupedness), and furrydom (a dangerous step away from bestiality), Call me judgmental if you want to, and maybe I'm being close minded about it. I will concede that its better these people live out their fantasies with cartoons than in the real world, I suppose.

I have no idea how someone can like anime or dislike anime. It's like saying I like/dislike live action prime time drama... surely it depends on the setting of a particular show and the quality of its execution?

I count Akira among my favourite movies of all time, and think Ghost in the Shell and a couple of other films are pretty good as well. Cowboy Bebop was jolly good fun as well. Most other anime is either pretty crappy or focussed on things I don't care about but that's alright, a large portion of every medium is either crappy or focussed on things I don't care about.

sebster wrote: It's like saying I like/dislike live action prime time drama... surely it depends on the setting of a particular show and the quality of its execution?

Depends. Are we talking Survivor/The Biggest Loser/Fear Factor or are we talking Chuck/Burn Notice/Psych?

In my experience, anime all seems to follow certain conventions. I'm not saying western cartoons or live action shows don't. But to my, by far and wide, I can't relate to the conventions in anime.

Also, to much spiky hair.

It's like anything in life really. Some of it's good. Some of it's bad. YMMV.

...really it's what sebster said. He just said it betterer and smarterer than me.

sebster wrote:I have no idea how someone can like anime or dislike anime. It's like saying I like/dislike live action prime time drama... surely it depends on the setting of a particular show and the quality of its execution?

I count Akira among my favourite movies of all time, and think Ghost in the Shell and a couple of other films are pretty good as well. Cowboy Bebop was jolly good fun as well. Most other anime is either pretty crappy or focussed on things I don't care about but that's alright, a large portion of every medium is either crappy or focussed on things I don't care about.

Thats what i said! then people say im just defending anime for the sake of im a rabid anime fan!

I knew you were rabid, Luna, but an ANIME FAN?!?

Commander Endova wrote:Depends. Are we talking Survivor/The Biggest Loser/Fear Factor or are we talking Chuck/Burn Notice/Psych?

The first lot is reality tv, the second lot is prime time drama. Although thinking about it, reality tv might challenge the idea that everything has soem good and some bad - I'm struggling to think of good reality tv. I used to like The Apprentice, but I can't say it was any good...

In my experience, anime all seems to follow certain conventions. I'm not saying western cartoons or live action shows don't. But to my, by far and wide, I can't relate to the conventions in anime.

Also, to much spiky hair.

Sure, but not all anime follows the same conventions. Akira and Howl's Moving Castle are very different, and both are miles apart from all the stuff about fighting robots piloted by 12 year old girls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:Thats what i said! then people say im just defending anime for the sake of im a rabid anime fan!

Then those people are just being silly. If they don't agree, tell them some guy on the internet told them they were being silly.

You can surely dislike the artistic style of anime though, which I do.

But you could also argue that the artistic style of anime varies wildly. I guess.

My response ported over from the original thread wrote:

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Not to thread-jack, but can anybody explain to me the American youth's infatuation with Japanese anime? To me, it's like being infatuated with French Impressionism. Its just a foreign style of art, right?

It caters to a market who prefer animation to live-action and prefer animation that isn't idiotic comedy. Lost and Heroes are good and all, but some people don't really like live action. Tom and Jerry is fun and all, but it's not going to get you to do any heavy thinking. The DCAU and the like are a step in the right direction, but they're limited to one genre. Anime can be a wide range of genres and it can cater to anyone's preference. You want typical episodic teen adventure story? Shounen is for you. You want a romance? Try Shoujo, or if you're interesting in gay romance, try Shounen-Ai or Shoujo-Ai. Like giant robots? You can have the optimistic Gurren Lagann or the depressing Neon Genesis Evangelion. Want something dealing with a bleak look at the world? A seinen such as Narutaru is your type. Want emos? Enjoy your Naruto.

I suppose it could be likened to having an infatuation with French Impressionism. However French Impressionism isn't marketed at all ages and all genres, nor are the youth particularly fond of paintings, which explains why you hear little about them.

There's more to anime than the fairly simplistic 2BAMASTA or Save-the-world plotline that the typical Shounen follow. It just so happens that as the American distributors don't recognise animation as being for anyone other than kids, only those anime appealing to kids are brought over, and the heavier issues are almost always somewhat censored (e.g. Death, homosexuality and strangely, blood). This gives the impression that all anime is this shallow, when really it has far more depth. The youth are using the internet more and more, so global relations are getting better and better. This gives them ready access to subtitled videos of uncensored anime of their choice.

The plotline of many anime is superior to much of what youths who dislike live action in America have access to. Firstly, let's rule out books, because books don't have animation. Secondly, all movies are limited to a 2 hour period, which isn't long enough to give an in-depth plot. TV shows are live action, which can easily be a victim of bad acting, and bad effects are guaranteed unless it's high budget. Also, tv shows have to be watched on TV, while anime is always downloaded online, so is far more convenient to watch.

So, have I put forward a decent enough explanation for why anime is popular?

Commander Endova wrote:I've enjoyed some of the more mature ones in my day. Personally, what bugs me most are the kiddies who go nuts about it but haven't even bothered to watch the genre classics, like 'Akira.'

I saw AKIRA. I wholeheartedly disliked it. The characters felt undeveloped and the ending was a cop out. I promptly read the manga instead and was much more satisfied.

I'm trying to sample every genre in anime and manga and not get into a rut about what I like.

I've seen:
AKIRA - Cyberpunk seinen
Code Geass - Death Note meets giant robots
Death Note - Psychological warfare between a teen who discovers a book with the power to kill anyone who's name is written in it and a detective trying to stop him. The boy decides he wants to wipe the world of all criminals.
Elfen Lied - Discusses nurture v.s. nature, with doses of atonement and heavy application of gore. Was cut short from the manga.
Green Green - Typical romantic comedy. Nothing out of the ordinary.
Gurren Lagann - Giant robot cliches all thrown together. It worked, and produced an epic hot-blooded anime. Nothing particularly thought inducing, but it's definitely fun.
Higurashi no Naku Koro ni - Murder mystery with lolis and a twist.
Jigoku Shoujo - Episodic corny Japanese horror anime.
Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha (currently on second season) - The magical girl series I chose to watch. Follows usual convention of no blood, no death, etc. Still a fun watch, and the fight scenes are pretty.
Neon Genesis Evangelion - The deconstruction of giant mecha. The main character suffers abandonment issues, his co-pilot's mother went insane and tried to kill her, his other teammate has a really screwed up backstory and the director had a mental breakdown halfway through the series.
Now and Then, Here and There - Starts off as your average shounen, then becomes depressing. It's set in a dystopian world, alluding to the predicament of child soldiers and war in our own country. This one doesn't pull any punches, although it's somewhat outdated art style detracts for the first few episodes.
One Piece (still trundling through it at roughly episode 170) - Far better than the crap version that was ported over to here by 4kids. Mentioning 4Piece in any discussion over anime worth is akin to taking Epic Movie as the epitome of American studios.
Ouran High School Host Club - Reverse harem parody. Very funny as a parody, although it takes fifteen minutes of teeth gritting to get through the image of it being a schoolgirl's wet dream.
School Days - How a harem would turn out in real life. Not pretty. Except for the boat. That was nice.
Serial Experiments Lain - Apparently it has a lot of obscure references and the like. I missed them, but I found the premise interesting enough. Give it a watch if you're feeling intellectual.
Shigofumi - Episodic anime looking at death and human nature.
The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Comedic happenings of a school club. Mostly parody.

I've read:
AKIRA - The world in the future really sucks. That's the only feeling I left with. Oh, and Kaneda is possibly the luckiest character ever.
Bokurano - Evangelion without the mind-screw. My favourite manga to date. Depressing and realistic.
Death Note (Unfinished) - Same as the anime, but has more details. I dislike the second season, so I dropped it.
Elfen Lied - Same as the anime, but more and an ending that kills the driving point of the series.
Gyo - Horror zombie-fish apocalypse, complete with sharks kicking doors down with a "GASHUNK" sound effect. Nice short stories in the second volume.
Liar Game (Unfinished) - Death Note, but the protagonist is good.
Narutaru - Pokemon, but by the end of the first volume, a kid is pierced through the stomach with a plane strut and dies. It gets worse, including child-rape and lots of death.
Onani Master Kurosawa - Death Note parody in a high school setting with masturbation. Not porn. A lot better than it sounds.
Pastel (Ongoing) - Typical romance comedy about a guy and a girl living together.
RE-TAKE of Evangelion - Well written alternate Evangelion doujin disguised as a hentai. A must read.
School Mermaid - A few chapter long story. Nothing more can be said without spoilers.
Tomie - A girl keeps coming back to life, but men are driven to murder her and cut her up. Horror.
Uzumaki - Spiral horror. You will not be able to look at a spiral the same way again.

Mine pales in comparison to others' lists, but it's enough so I feel as if I know what I am talking about when I say the art style varies greatly, the plot varies greatly and the genre varies greatly.

whatwhat wrote:You can surely dislike the artistic style of anime though, which I do.

Do you mean the big eyes and small mouth style which anime is often parodied for. I don't mind that as a style, but even if I did it wouldn't be an issue as it isn't used in all anime.


Or do you mean the low frame rates and re-used footage common to much televised anime*? I'd probably agree with you, there, but would argue that top draw productions like Ghost in the Shell have incredible animation.





*It's been explained to me by a fellow in the animation industry that Western cartoons place a greater emphasis on character motion and frame rates, while Japanese animation emphasises character detail. I prefer the Western style, but it's only an issue for low to middle tier productions. Top end tv shows and films have sufficient production standards that the difference drops away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pika_power wrote:I saw AKIRA. I wholeheartedly disliked it. The characters felt undeveloped and the ending was a cop out. I promptly read the manga instead and was much more satisfied.

Really? I actually feel that's a case where less is more. I liked that the nature of Akira in the film was largely unexplained, most everything was left up to the viewer. The layers of meta-physics in the book bored me silly.

I prefer Manga. But I've been interested In Death Note, so I might watch that after I finish Bleach.

What the feth's the difference?

Anime is animation, namely the animated stuff on tv. A manga is the black and white comics.

Meh. *shrug*

I guess it really doesn't make a difference, but thanks for the info. :thumsbup:

Endova wrote:
My other beef with it is that it opens up doors for all sorts of sexual deviancy. I mean, don;t get me wrong, I'll do some kinky gak, but I draw the line at loli (pedophilia), gurro (necrophilla/general fuckedupedness), and furrydom (a dangerous step away from bestiality), Call me judgmental if you want to, and maybe I'm being close minded about it. I will concede that its better these people live out their fantasies with cartoons than in the real world, I suppose.

I'm right there with you pal - this is the main reason I detest anime/manga. There seems to be an undercurrent of paedophilia in a lot of it (and no, not just the schoolgirl images!). One of the most obvious stylistic characteristics is (often quite subtle) sexualised images ostensibly representing adults, with childlike facial features. I find that creepy. Although I find a lot of Japanese culture creepy, so...

I'm with Endova and Albatross.

Although I like my fair share of Anime, the schoolgirl/child with the giant boobs to point out "this is not really a child - honest!" is a bit... wrong?

Which is why I tend to stick to the more adult anime... Cowboy Beebop etc, where there are adult characters (and not 8 year old girls with boobs saving the world and getting into awkward semi-sexual situations).

SilverMK2 wrote:Although I like my fair share of Anime, the schoolgirl/child with the giant boobs to point out "this is not really a child - honest!" is a bit... wrong?

This annoys me too, what is the obsession with school girls with giant boobs in manga... Its a bit creepy..

Although perhaps even creepier is the school-girl-with-small-boob-and-special-powers anime. Then they look even younger and seem to often play the "innocent young girl" role, which given some of the things that happen in the story then makes it really creepy.

Off the top of my head I think Elfin Leid (sp?) is a good example of this.

I view anime as the Japanese equivalent of Heroes, or Lost. It just happens to be drawn instead of acted. And in the same way that sub-par dramas can be made (I'm looking at you, season 2 of Terminator:Sarah Connor Chronicles!), a sub-par anime can be made.

I can understand not liking the artisitic styles, there are some animes that I refuse to watch because the drawing style just point blank irritates me. One Piece is a good example.

I would dismiss it as a simple fad though, as the anime influence in culture, and popularity has been slowly but steadily climbing for a good twenty years now, since its introduction to the West with Akira. (the movie for that was alright, but wasn't as good as the manga simply because they were trying to compress 9 telephone directories of comic books into a twohour film).

The difference between manga and anime is the difference between reading transformers and then going and watching the movie. One is a comic book, the other is something you sit down and watch.

There is a lot of fanservice and teenage titillation in anime format, but to honest, anything that's been drawn has probably been done on the internet in 'live action' so to speak. Its just that drawing some weird tentacle monster is a lot easier than having to actually make one out of sfx. As such, the more bizare fetishes seem to be conducted through this medium, simply because its the only practical way to cater for it's 'audience'.

If you ignore the weird, bad, and downright perverse stuff, you're left with some very good film nights in. I'm not into giant breasted girls, so you can take my recommendations as one's of some sort of taste. I would say the better animes out there that I've seen are:-


Black Lagoon-A Japanese Office worker is taken hostage by a group of modern day pirates, and ends up joining them.

Bleach:-Lots of swordfighting and mystical powers ina world of death gods and demons. First arc is distinctly average, second arc is really good, third arc is amazing, fourth arc is pretty damn good, and then it goes downhill. Stop there, unless you enjoy watching a million fights in which no character ever dies.

Cowboy Bebop-A sci-fi wild western, with some fairly three dimensional characters.

Death Note-Very Gothic detective anime with a hint of the supernatural. Very gripping plot.

Fullmetal Alchemist-Set in a fairly steampunk world where they have a 'magic' power called alchemy. Some of the best character development, and an enthralling storyline.

Gantz-Some of the goriest stuff since Battle Royale, but very realistic scenario and characters. Philosophical underpinnings.

Ghost in the Shell-Futuristic sci-punk anime. Contributed the roots of the popular Matrix films. A group of well funded government agents combating terrorism in complex plots of intrigue.

Hellsing(Manga only!)- Vampire hunting set in Merrye-olde England. Nazi shooting, explosions, and the works. However, the anime was a cheap spin off version with a terrible plot.

Naruto:-Starts off as cheap kids show where the characters annoy you for the entire first series(140 eps!). Once you get past that lengthy beginning though, the storyline becomes one of the best around, with very well developed characters. Just a question of the effort of wading through the first series.

Neon Genesis Evangelion-Starts out as standard Giant mecha anime, with the addition that you despise all the characters as annoying. Around episode 18 though, it gets quite grim and begins a descent into philosophical ramblings, climaxing with an interesting ending. You'll have to read a plot synopsis afterwards, or watch it six times however, because unlike most shows, it doesn't hand the plot on a plate, you have to take the pieces apart yourself, and figure out what's going on.

Rurouni Kenshin-Almost a historical documentary. Full of a wealth of detail of Japanese history mixed in with sword fights. Slow to start, but good when it gets rolling. Second series was never animated, isntead they put in a crap load of random filler. If watching, you can stop around ep-60, and read the rest of the story in manga.

Trigun- Another sci-fi Wild west. Not the most amazing series around but a good solid classic.

Wolf's Rain-Interesting and excellently executed steampunk anime, but terrible ending.

It deleted my post...

Short version. I like anime, but its just a medium. It's the art and the stories.

The other thing is, there are a lot of anime which use a complete manga or a story, and it is much better at developing a great story, subtle developements, amazing cresendos and then tying up nicely (a la Bebop). There are very few American shows that plan from the start to be only 2-4 seasons and map it all out ahead of time.

List of stuff

-Boys with superpowers (this is my brainless stuff to watch)
Bleach,
Naruto,
Full Metal Alchemist,
Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood (new, follows the manga),
Black Cat,
Black Blood Brothers,
Ghost Hunt

-Stuff more adult themes, more intellectual or just more violent
Black Lagoon,
Elven Lied,
Ghost in the Shell,
Cowboy Bebop,
Ergo Proxy (intellectually demanding-get the fansub with the notes at the end...),
Mononoke (awesome style & pacing of story),
Neon Genesis: Evangelion,
Samurai Seven (giant robot retelling of 7 Samurai),
Count of Monte Cristo: Gangetsuo (sp?)(Retelling of French classic of betrayal and revenge... in space (not really) Really neat style of art),
Death Note (actually against recommending the anime only because it doesn't do justice to the manga which is 10 bajillion times more awesome.
Samurai Champloo (kinda weird story following 2 ronin and a girl across Japan. heavy american influence)

-Manga (the comic book stuff -Graphic Novel-)
Pretty much anything... go to Onemanga and just start reading summaries until you find something you like.

Edit: Formatting and adding 1 I forgot

Im on chapter 223 of Bleach, the Soul Society Era was really good but I found that Ichigo just finds out a new power and uses that to beat the enemy every single major battle.

What Arch am I on now, Im not sure...

Lord-Loss wrote:Im on chapter 223 of Bleach, the Soul Society Era was really good but I found that Ichigo just finds out a new power and uses that to beat the enemy every single major battle.

What Arch am I on now, Im not sure...

The Soul Society Arc was good, then you'll get into the Arrancar arc which is pretty good too.

But yeah, that is the formula for superpowered boy shows.

Bleach.
Start
getsuga tensho
bankai
mask
dark getsuga
?

Naruto (don't remember order)
start
Shadow clones
demon fox cloak (1tail)
rasengen
2-3 tails
rasengen shuriken
???

Albatross wrote:

Endova wrote:
My other beef with it is that it opens up doors for all sorts of sexual deviancy. I mean, don;t get me wrong, I'll do some kinky gak, but I draw the line at loli (pedophilia), gurro (necrophilla/general fuckedupedness), and furrydom (a dangerous step away from bestiality), Call me judgmental if you want to, and maybe I'm being close minded about it. I will concede that its better these people live out their fantasies with cartoons than in the real world, I suppose.

I'm right there with you pal - this is the main reason I detest anime/manga. There seems to be an undercurrent of paedophilia in a lot of it (and no, not just the schoolgirl images!). One of the most obvious stylistic characteristics is (often quite subtle) sexualised images ostensibly representing adults, with childlike facial features. I find that creepy. Although I find a lot of Japanese culture creepy, so...

Just picking this moment to mention live action has brought us nothing but flowers and roses, and definitely isn't a medium for transmitting real child porn, scat or pseudo-rape sex scenes.


Your argument is similar to saying "Oh, I'm a tad wary of seeing Lord of the Rings, Two-Girls-One-Cup really freaked me out". If we judge a medium by its worst representatives, of course it is going to look bad.

However the child-like design you're talking about isn't pedophilia as such. Japanese culture considers 'cute' to be attractive, to the point where some will speak in an unnaturally high voice, or continue to carry a teddy bear around. It's not limited to the anime. It's natural that some of it will leak over. It's similar to how English speaking countries have a certain perception of 'sexy', and all female leads will be played by attractive women. If a culture thinks a certain attribute is attractive, it will use that attribute in its art style.

Even so, there are many anime without any fanservice. They tend to be the seinen anime or manga. For example, Uzumaki, Tomie, Gyo, Bokurano and Narutaru don't have any distinct fanservice, despite the latter two having their share of sex.

Shadowbrand wrote:I am on a middle ground when it comes to anime.

Yea I like Anime but I am not obsessed with it. And I actually really hate the kind of people that "obsess" over it.

Now I'm always up for some Bleach or the older Gundam series.

Which is how is should be, it's just a medium with it's share of crap and gold.