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Pika_power wrote:Anime is animation, namely the animated stuff on tv. A manga is the black and white comics.

This actually gets a lot of people confused in Australia, as the major distributor of anime in Australia is a company called Manga.

Odd. I'm in NZ and I've never heard of them. Perhaps they're Australian only.

Pika_power wrote:Just picking this moment to mention live action has brought us nothing but flowers and roses, and definitely isn't a medium for transmitting real child porn, scat or pseudo-rape sex scenes.

Your argument is similar to saying "Oh, I'm a tad wary of seeing Lord of the Rings, Two-Girls-One-Cup really freaked me out". If we judge a medium by its worst representatives, of course it is going to look bad.

However the child-like design you're talking about isn't pedophilia as such. Japanese culture considers 'cute' to be attractive, to the point where some will speak in an unnaturally high voice, or continue to carry a teddy bear around. It's not limited to the anime. It's natural that some of it will leak over. It's similar to how English speaking countries have a certain perception of 'sexy', and all female leads will be played by attractive women. If a culture thinks a certain attribute is attractive, it will use that attribute in its art style.

Even so, there are many anime without any fanservice. They tend to be the seinen anime or manga. For example, Uzumaki, Tomie, Gyo, Bokurano and Narutaru don't have any distinct fanservice, despite the latter two having their share of sex.

I agree with you that not all anime should be defined by the portion that contains pervy elements. I agree that there is a Japanese girlie element that sometimes plays very differently in Western eyes, I have to admit it took me a while to get over the girlie traits of a lot of Japanese colleagues and realise they were also pretty good at their jobs.

But there is certainly a range of anime out there that's pervy, that has nothing to do with cultural perceptions and everything to do with titilation - and often very weird titilation. It's a problem for a lot of people that might otherwise be interested in an anime, except they're not comfortable that a main character is written as a young girl but drawn in a highly sexualised manner, like in Evangelion.

sebster wrote: It's a problem for a lot of people that might otherwise be interested in an anime, except they're not comfortable that a main character is written as a young girl but drawn in a highly sexualised manner, like in Evangelion.

You thought Shinji was a girl? Granted, he's a bit of a emo kid, but not that effeminate.

If you mean Asuka, then to be honest, if you think she's oversexualised, you really haven't seen the 14/15 year olds of today. My little brother's that age, and I've seen some of his female friends. They make Asuka look like a prude.

I like my share of anime, but always the one thing that bugged the hell out of me was the standing around. Now DBZ was the king of this but why the hell in so many action animes do the characters just stand there...talking to the enemy. Fight a few seconds, stare, fight, stare...compliment the guy, WTF!?, stare...bad guy flies away saying he needs to get stronger, End.

It's like at one point instead watching for the fight, you want to rifftrax what is going on in there head, with one random bleach fight you could go on about how the characters are afraid they had their stove left on.

Asuka is the rare example of it actually being plot related. If you consider why, it's quite chilling.

Her mother's soul was sucked into EVA 02, causing her to go insane. She then abandoned Asuka, instead treating a doll like her daughter. If things couldn't get much more traumatising for the girl, the mother kills herself and 'Asuka' (the replacement doll). Asuka then decides that there's no one to rely on in the world and the only thing to do is to grow up. This is further shown when she (a young girl) attempts to seduce Kaji, learns Japanese and becomes advanced in academic subjects. She also pilots the same giant robot that her mother's soul was sucked into because she wants to be noticed, and has a mental breakdown when Shinji does better than her. When in danger, she refuses help due to wanting to cope for herself, and sinks into depression when she is unable to do even that. Her developed body can be seen as symbolic (and yes, Evangelion is big on symbolism) of her determination to grow up and be independent.


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Kurgash wrote:I like my share of anime, but always the one thing that bugged the hell out of me was the standing around. Now DBZ was the king of this but why the hell in so many action animes do the characters just stand there...talking to the enemy. Fight a few seconds, stare, fight, stare...compliment the guy, WTF!?, stare...bad guy flies away saying he needs to get stronger, End.

It's like at one point instead watching for the fight, you want to rifftrax what is going on in there head, with one random bleach fight you could go on about how the characters are afraid they had their stove left on.

Yes, that sort of thing has earned DBZ the name of Drag-on Ball Z. It's due to the anime being based on the manga, and overtaking it plot-wise, so they need to slow down to let the manga catch up. If you dislike it, I recommend reading the manga or watching anime made after the manga is completed, or retools of the series such as Dragon Ball Kai.

Ive got a few series of anime on DVD... if I like it then ill watch it, if I don’t then I don’t.

Loved hellsing... planning on picking it up soon. Ghost in the Shell was another great one (already got it)

Don’t really care for DBZ, so I don’t watch it, and aint gonna buy it.


Its not rocket surgery ya know.

Pika_power wrote:Yes, that sort of thing has earned DBZ the name of Drag-on Ball Z.

I've never heard that before. I chuckled.

Oh. wait. Sorry. I Didn;t chuckle, I, kekekekekekekekekekekekekek

Pika_power wrote:
Just picking this moment to mention live action has brought us nothing but flowers and roses, and definitely isn't a medium for transmitting real child porn, scat or pseudo-rape sex scenes.

Your argument is similar to saying "Oh, I'm a tad wary of seeing Lord of the Rings, Two-Girls-One-Cup really freaked me out". If we judge a medium by its worst representatives, of course it is going to look bad.

I'm not saying that live action doesn;t have those same things. But it's harder to come by, and in some cases, illegal.

I'm sure there's tons of child porn out there, but like I said, it's illegal, and while I've never plugged "kiddie porn" into Google and hit 'I'm Feeling Lucky' (because, you know, I don;t want to get arrested,) imagine you'd have to delve pretty deeply in order to find the real stuff. But in anime, it's just... always there. It's an undercurrent to so much of the medium. The propensity of mega-mammary schoolgirls is insane. I get what you're saying about their culture though. I'm warm-blooded apple pie loving American as its gets, though, so I can admit I'm not in tune with the cultural divergence.

Scat... Is disgusting, but it's harmless. Barring disease, of course...

Its the guro stuff that really freaks me out. Sure, you can do-pseudo rape scenes with live action, but you know that in the end, that it's staged, and they act the rape, and that it's consensual, in reality, and there's probably a contract they've all even signed. But things like guro are more than just rape. Firstly, since the characters aren;t real, and since there's nothing illegal about doing it, (I'm not saying it should be illegal) the artist can draw it as a rape, and it will be a rape. Add to that the level of gore you can easily produce with ink and paper, and you can let people play out some pretty sick fantasies.


On a completely unrelated note, I hear so many good things about Ghost in the Shell, and I find myself wanting to give it a chance. Afterall, I dont't hate all anime. How many seasons are there? Are there spinoffs that I need to avoid? Can I still pick it up in Bestbuy/wal-Mart?

I don't really watch Anime. I've seen bits and pieces over the years (First Gundam, Some dubbed transformers anime, Akira) and while I like it, I don't go out of my way to find it.

I can't stand the stuff. About as far I can go is DVD of Macross and RObotech, and I still have to fast forward half of it. I tried to watch a little Gundam and only survived by punching myself in the face.

oh wow. look what i started. My main reasons for liking anime is im addicted to the art styles. Im an overly visual person so the extra detail that goes into the good anime grabs my attention. that and with a lot of the good anime even if you figure out what the ending will be you dont know how its going to happen.

Commander Endova wrote:

I'm not saying that live action doesn;t have those same things. But it's harder to come by, and in some cases, illegal.

I'm sure there's tons of child porn out there, but like I said, it's illegal, and while I've never plugged "kiddie porn" into Google and hit 'I'm Feeling Lucky' (because, you know, I don;t want to get arrested,) imagine you'd have to delve pretty deeply in order to find the real stuff. But in anime, it's just... always there. It's an undercurrent to so much of the medium. The propensity of mega-mammary schoolgirls is insane. I get what you're saying about their culture though. I'm warm-blooded apple pie loving American as its gets, though, so I can admit I'm not in tune with the cultural divergence.

But having girls like Britney Spears, Lindsey Lohan, Miley Cyrus and others (sorry, my teen girl idol knowledge is limited) who are under aged, sexed up, pole dancing and padding or getting implants is any different from the anime school students with giant tits... Or the American cheerleader fetish, or the 'barely legal' fetish... I stopped watching American TV a couple years ago and don't really miss it.

If yer willing to grasp that the culture is a little different its on the fact that they actually admit that people do these things. Elven Lied has a character that was sexually abused by her step-father and her mother ignored it b/c she didn't want to lose her stability. It's not like there are people like that eating apple pie in the good ol' U S of A...

I guess its kinda like watching District 9. If you watched that, it should've been more disturbing then any big tit anime girl. Mostly b/c it was all real, (no not the aliens) each one of the people in there is a real personna. The scientist that can talk about ripping apart another human being with the same amount of compassion as taking apart a radio, the business man that signed away his son in laws life, the warlord that believed full heartily that if you have something I want, I have every right to tear it from your bleedy body, the man that would condemn an entire race of inferior people just for his on sake, the para military man that enjoyed bloodshed and killing... yeah, way more disturbing then admitting that most males age 12-60 think school girls with big boobs are attractive.


If you'd like to educate yourself of why some anime is so fethed up, there is a book on anime written by a professor from a university in Texas (can't remember which) that helps explain some of the history and, if your sensibilities will let you read it, a chapter explaining some of the social pressures that explain the whole tentacle rape thing.
"ANIME FROM AKIRA TO PRINCESS MONONOKE: Experiencing Contemporary" by Susan J Napier. It will also talk about why Ghost in the Shell was so profound.

Soap box aside: Ghost in the Shell is good. There are 2 movies, 2 seasons and 2 minimovies that sum up the seasons. The first movie is the classic that created everything else, good mix of action and questioning of life... pretty deep, slow pace in some parts. Movies are what are really good, the shows good, but not to the level of the movies.

Errrr Miley Cyrus has a purity ring...

Lord-Loss wrote:Errrr Miley Cyrus has a purity ring...

Strip pole.

Kind of getting back into Anime again, having rediscovered the 12 part Guyver series my mate gave me, and watching it all pretty much back to back.

I was on the cusp of the first real Anime wave in the UK, seeing Akira at a young(ish) age, and having thoroughly enjoyed Ulysess 31 when even youngerer. However, I was soon put off by a lot of it, which just seemed rather dull and repetitive, lacking the originality which makes good Anime absolutely bloody awesome, and as the market flooded with more and more titles, I totally gave up sorting the wheat from the chaff, and turned my back on it.

I guess I'm just more into my Cyberpunk grimness than most cutesy/sexual Anime, which I will very much leave on the shelf, thank you!

Pika_power wrote:Just picking this moment to mention live action has brought us nothing but flowers and roses, and definitely isn't a medium for transmitting real child porn, scat or pseudo-rape sex scenes.

Your argument is similar to saying "Oh, I'm a tad wary of seeing Lord of the Rings, Two-Girls-One-Cup really freaked me out". If we judge a medium by its worst representatives, of course it is going to look bad.

Stop pretending that Anime is a medium - animation is a medium, Anime is a style of animation. There are genres within that particular style. You're getting your styles/genres/mediums mixed up and using them to create strawmen. Just a heads up.

Pika_power wrote:
However the child-like design you're talking about isn't pedophilia as such. Japanese culture considers 'cute' to be attractive, to the point where some will speak in an unnaturally high voice, or continue to carry a teddy bear around. It's not limited to the anime. It's natural that some of it will leak over. It's similar to how English speaking countries have a certain perception of 'sexy', and all female leads will be played by attractive women. If a culture thinks a certain attribute is attractive, it will use that attribute in its art style.

So finding child-like features sexually attractive ISN'T paedophilic? Well, that IS a relief!
As I said, I find some aspects of Japanese culture creepy. That's my opinion.

sebster wrote:

whatwhat wrote:You can surely dislike the artistic style of anime though, which I do.

Do you mean the big eyes and small mouth style which anime is often parodied for. I don't mind that as a style, but even if I did it wouldn't be an issue as it isn't used in all anime.


Or do you mean the low frame rates and re-used footage common to much televised anime*? I'd probably agree with you, there, but would argue that top draw productions like Ghost in the Shell have incredible animation.

I mean all of it. Provided you're not using the term Anime to define every piece of animation of japanese origin, which is insane. You're talking about clearly defined anime styles, one of which is the big eyed variation you mention. I find consistent themes in anime make characters rather inhuman and over exaguarated, that's what I don't like.

Albatross wrote:

Stop pretending that Anime is a medium - animation is a medium, Anime is a style of animation. There are genres within that particular style. You're getting your styles/genres/mediums mixed up and using them to create strawmen. Just a heads up.

Isn't Anime just a bland brushing of "Japanese Animation" which would be the same as saying "French Cinema". Okay, maybe its not a medium b/c Animation is the medium, but anime isn't a 'style' its just a smaller selection of the works of animation that come from Japan from WWII to now, reaching a height in Japan in the 80's which is when it started being seen in North America. It's no more a style then "French Cinema" or "Bollywood" is a style.

Feel free to read the book "ANIME FROM AKIRA TO PRINCESS MONONOKE" which will really enlighten people to what is Anime.


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whatwhat wrote:
I mean all of it. Provided you're not using the term Anime to define every piece of animation of japanese origin, which is insane. You're talking about clearly defined anime styles, one of which is the big eyed variation you mention. I find consistent themes in anime make characters rather inhuman and over exaguarated, that's what I don't like.

Yeah, I'm not an expert, but there are definite styles of Anime drawing, you've got the Round head and hands Astro Boy & Metropolis, you've got Spirited Away and My Neighbour Totoro style, you've got the more realistic styles and the Spikey Hair and ^_^ styles, they are all different art. There are also crazy stuff like Mononoke and Count of Monte Cristo or Ergo Proxy.

I enjoy most anime, my favs bein Gundam, Gungrave, Bleach, and Trinity Blood.

Most people don't care about the fact that I like anime, as I don't often talk abut Gundam. Except to my buddies.

@Demimyn - No, 'French Cinema' to denote certain aesthetic characteristics, is a 'style' of cinema, as is Bollywood. Actually the latter is a better example, as indian cinema and Bollywood are two different things. One is a style of cinema, the other is a national film industry. Yeah, 'french impressionist cinema' is what most people are thinking of when you say 'french cinema', which is of course any and all films made in France. But I wouldn't use Anime to refer to any and all animation made in Japan. Even if one did, it would still constitute a seperate style of animation.

Style and genre can be a minefield - it's easy to get mixed up.

@Golden Eyed Scout. What gundam series are you talking about? Deathscythe Hell Custom from Gundam Wing Endless Walz is one of my tattoos. For the anime fans I think just saying "Gundam" leaves too much up in there air to know what your talking about :3

If you look at the 3 pictures above, the first one is done in the style of japanese screen paintings... but that's right out of an Anime... that's what I'm trying to get across. Mononoke (the show where that pic is from) is an Anime. The 'style' is similar to screen paintings. It is not in the Anime 'style' of ^_^ at all. But its an Anime. That is what I'm trying to get across. The genre is 'animated film' the style is 'Taisho screen paintings' (that's a guess, I don't know Japanese art styles) It is an Anime b/c its a animated show from Japan, not because of what it looks like.

rocklord2004 wrote:@Golden Eyed Scout. What gundam series are you talking about? Deathscythe Hell Custom from Gundam Wing Endless Walz is one of my tattoos. For the anime fans I think just saying "Gundam" leaves too much up in there air to know what your talking about :3

I like all the Gundam series, my fav is prolly Wing, because it was the first one I saw, followed by Seed and then 00.

Why I love Gungrave.



Awesome.

Albatross wrote:Stop pretending that Anime is a medium - animation is a medium, Anime is a style of animation. There are genres within that particular style. You're getting your styles/genres/mediums mixed up and using them to create strawmen. Just a heads up.

Why is Anime not a medium? What makes them NOT a medium?

# Action - Claymore
# Adult - Akira
# Adventure - Tower of Druaga
# Comedy - Minamike
# Doujinshi - Misc
# Drama - Nodame Cantabile
# Ecchi - Girls Bravo
# Fantasy - Record of Lodoss War
# Gender Bender - Maria X Holic
# Historical - Genji Monogatari
# Horror - Mnemosyne
# Josei - Nana
# Lolicon - Dance in the Vampire Bund
# Martial Arts - Battle Angel Alita
# Mature - Monster
# Mecha - Gundam
# Mystery - Higurashi
# One Shot - Misc
# Psychological - Ghost Hound
# Romance - Ah My Goddess
# School Life - School Rumble
# Sci-fi - Ghost in the Shell
# Seinen - Berzerk
# Shotacon - Boku no Picco
# Shoujo - His and Her Circumstance
# Shoujo Ai - Marimitte
# Shounen - Kamen Rider
# Shounen Ai - Boku no Picco
# Slice of Life - Aria
# Smut - Bible Black
# Sports - Hajime no Ippo
# Supernatural - XXX Holic
# Tragedy - Saikano
# Yaoi - Naruto
# Yuri - Strawberry Panic

If the genres means nothing to show they are exactly the medium used to target the different type of audience then tell me why.

What is Princess Mononoke if its not an Anime medium used to express a movie?

I forgot Mnemosyne! That is another crazy one.
And Nana was the most depressing manga I have ever read. Amazing, but wow was that a downer.

bow at awesomeness of Luna Hound.

Lunahound wrote: Why is Anime not a medium? What makes them NOT a medium?

*big list*

If the genres means nothing to show they are exactly the medium used to target the different type of audience then tell me why.

What is Princess Mononoke if its not an Anime medium used to express a movie?

Not sure what you're asking me - it's coming out a little garbled. You proved that Anime contains different genres. Congratulations. I never said otherwise.
Are you talking about anime as a means of depicting certain themes? Fine, no problem. Anime is a style of animation which can be used to depict certain themes, in different genres. A medium (or media) is a means of mediating cultural texts - i.e. sending them from the artist/writer to the consumer. Technically, the medium used to mediate in this instance would be TV, but different forms of broadcast can be considered to be different 'mediums' in this context. In this case, the medium is 'animation' - Anime is a style of animation. 'Stop-motion' is another style. Anime isn't an all encompassing term.
You wouldn't consider stop-motion animation, Toy Story 2 or an episode of The Simpsons to be 'Anime', would you?
Hope that clears it up.

Deminyn wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:Errrr Miley Cyrus has a purity ring...

Strip pole.

Notice the chick in the background's face? She's like "lolwut?"

Albatross wrote:

Lunahound wrote: Why is Anime not a medium? What makes them NOT a medium?

*big list*

If the genres means nothing to show they are exactly the medium used to target the different type of audience then tell me why.

What is Princess Mononoke if its not an Anime medium used to express a movie?

Not sure what you're asking me - it's coming out a little garbled. You proved that Anime contains different genres. Congratulations. I never said otherwise. Are you talking about anime as a means of depicting certain themes? Fine, no problem. Anime is a style of animation which can be used to depict certain themes, in different genres.
A medium (or media) is a means of mediating cultural texts - i.e. sending them from the artist/writer to the consumer. Technically, the medium used to mediate in this instance would be TV, but different forms of broadcast can be considered to be different 'mediums' in this context. In this case, the medium is 'animation' - Anime is a style of animation. 'Stop-motion' is another style. Anime isn't an all encompassing term. You wouldn't consider stop-motion animation, Toy Story 2 or an episode of The Simpsons to be 'Anime', would you?
Hope that clears it up.

If a story is chosen to be told , they have the decision to make.
Will it be a movie
will it be live action series
or will it be anime. or even OVA

I still got a problem with stereotyping all Anime as one style. Maybe its just in the proper definition of the word 'style' but you are saying that all Anime is the same style but they aren't. Forgive the photo spam but here we go...



All Anime but a mix of different styles. Inside the 'some term I don't know' of Anime, there are recognizable styles of animation. Metropolis is of the Osamu Tezuka style, My Neighbour Totoro is Hayao Miyazaki style of animation, Bleach is the 'Anime' style that I think is the stereotype that keeps getting reinforced when people lump all Anime as just 1 style/genre/snuckerbug (I'm getting tired of terms)

Edit: better Metropolis image

go go wikipedia
"In Japan, the term anime does not specify an animation's nation of origin or style; instead, it serves as a blanket term to refer to all forms of animation from around the world.[17][18] English-language dictionaries define anime as "a Japanese style of motion-picture animation" or as "a style of animation developed in Japan".[19]"

So I am, according to Wikipedia, wrong in saying that Anime is not a style. My terms are off.

"The charateristic anime style developed in the 1960s - notably with the work of Osamu Tezuka - and became known outside Japan in the 1980s." So that is what everyone thinks of when they think Anime (see Metropolis above)

"The styles can vary from artist to artist or from studio to studio." This is what I've been trying to get at. (I forgot about FLCL )

"While different titles and different artists have their own artistic styles, many stylistic elements have become so common that people[who?] describe them as definitive of anime in general. However, this does not mean that all modern anime share one strict, common art style. Many anime have a very different art style from what would commonly be called "anime style", yet fans still use the word "anime" to refer to these titles. Generally, the most common form of anime drawings include "exaggerated physical features such as large eyes, big hair and elongated limbs... and dramatically shaped speech bubbles, speed lines and onomatopoeic, exclamatory typography."[25]"

Albatross wrote:

Pika_power wrote:Just picking this moment to mention live action has brought us nothing but flowers and roses, and definitely isn't a medium for transmitting real child porn, scat or pseudo-rape sex scenes.

Your argument is similar to saying "Oh, I'm a tad wary of seeing Lord of the Rings, Two-Girls-One-Cup really freaked me out". If we judge a style of animation[u] by its worst representatives, of course it is going to look bad.

Stop pretending that Anime is a medium - animation is a medium, Anime is a style of animation. There are genres within that particular style. You're getting your styles/genres/mediums mixed up and using them to create strawmen. Just a heads up.

Pika_power wrote:
However the child-like design you're talking about isn't pedophilia as such. Japanese culture considers 'cute' to be attractive, to the point where some will speak in an unnaturally high voice, or continue to carry a teddy bear around. It's not limited to the anime. It's natural that some of it will leak over. It's similar to how English speaking countries have a certain perception of 'sexy', and all female leads will be played by attractive women. If a culture thinks a certain attribute is attractive, it will use that attribute in its art style.

So finding child-like features sexually attractive ISN'T paedophilic? Well, that IS a relief!
As I said, I find some aspects of Japanese culture creepy. That's my opinion.

First point: You're okay with classifying Live Action as a different medium, but anime is bundled into animation? Doesn't bother me particularly, as my point still stands if I substitute the terms in question.

Second point: It's not isolated to anime, it's all through their culture. Does that mean all Japanese have paedophilic preferences?