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Personally, I've always believed the Punisher to be the worst Leman Russ variant. However, there's always those who try to point out how good the Pask Punisher is against MC's and Teq. I've seen the math as to why it fails against Teq, but I wanted to see how it does against MC's. I'm going to compare the Pask Punisher against 3 Hydras. The Punisher is 5 points more, but I'd say close enough for this kind of thing. As fpr the target, T6, +3 Armor Save seems close enough to the majority of MC's.

Pask Punisher: 20 shots, each with 2/3*5/9=37% chance for one shot to wound. With armor saves, this leaves a 12% chance per shot to wound. So one round of shooting with the Punisher = 2.4 wounds on a MC

3 Hydras: 12 shots, each with 3/4*2/3=50% chance for one shot to wound. With armor saves, this leaves a 16.67% chance per shot to wound. So one round of shooting with 3 Hydras = 2 wounds on a MC

Well, it seems like the Pask Punisher is slightly useful for one thing, putting some wounds on a MC. So please, everyone, stop telling people to bring their Paskquishers. It's not going to help enough against MC's to make up for its other suckage.

It's also worth noting that, as a single model, a punisher will die a lot faster than 3 Hydras. Additionally, when your one Punisher goes down, that's it. It's gone. You lose one Hydra, and you just lose a third of your firepower.

I ran the Punisher with Heavy Bolter Sponsons and hullmount in a Vassal game last night. Over the course of the game, it made back its points, but that isn't what makes it my next purchase. This thing forces wound allocation, which means your opponent will lose special weapons, heavy weapons, hidden Powerfists, etc. If you've got a Mech army which simultaniously lacks torrent fire and targets vulnerable to anti-infantry fire, I'd definitely consider this over most Russes.

That's a very tight niche you're trying to fill. Especially when you consider just how easily they can fill it without encroaching on heavy support.

So you're saying it's easier to kill an AV14 Leman Russ than it is a squadron of AV12 Hydras?

Let's suppose both get hit by a Lascannon. The Lascannon has a 3/6 chance of penetrating a Hydra and 1/6 of penetrating a Punisher. If it only glances a Hydra, the Immobilized result is converted to Destroyed (Wrecked).

Interestingly a Heavy Weapon Squad of Autocannons will have a good day against a squadron of Hydras and be incapable of harming a Punisher that can keep its front to them.

By that logic, the Hydras can't be hit by the autocannons since theirs are longbarrelled . . . besides, 24 inch range on the punisher makes it even worse

So by the logic of S vs AV and armour facing, Hydras outrange ordinary Autocannons? You fail at logic.

Nurglitch wrote:So you're saying it's easier to kill an AV14 Leman Russ than it is a squadron of AV12 Hydras?

It wouldn't be too hard to get behind them or into assault. If that's the case, you're then dealing with nice soft and creamy AV10 on the both of them.

Nurglitch wrote:So by the logic of S vs AV and armour facing, Hydras outrange ordinary Autocannons? You fail at logic.

More like by the logic of One can't hurt the other in a set of circumstances. You're failing by trying to argue that you should shoot autocannons at AV 14.

Except I was talking about their resistance to incoming fire, such as from that of Lascannons... If you're going to criticize someone's "logic", at least have some clue about what they're talking about. The lower armour and squadron rules are going to make a squadron of Hydras more vulnerable to more things.

In addition, and to address the notion that both have AV10 in close combat, the Punisher's Lumbering Behemoth rule will help to defend it in close combat since it can keep moving to prevent close combat attacks from hitting.

So, let's tie the specifics to the general since you failed to comprehend the logic in the first place: more resistant to lascannons, frontal armour that is completely resistant to Autocannons in range, harder to hit in close combat, so in general a Leman Russ equipped with Knight-Commander Pask is going to have better defense on its side.

DarkHound wrote:I ran the Punisher with Heavy Bolter Sponsons and hullmount in a Vassal game last night. Over the course of the game, it made back its points, but that isn't what makes it my next purchase. This thing forces wound allocation, which means your opponent will lose special weapons, heavy weapons, hidden Powerfists, etc. If you've got a Mech army which simultaniously lacks torrent fire and targets vulnerable to anti-infantry fire, I'd definitely consider this over most Russes.

Thank you DarkHound, you, like so few, understand the point of the Punisher. It's not overly efficient, but it withers units away. Yeah the bullets aren't overly poweful, but 29 of them can easily make even some of the hardest units wilt under that torrent. It's like a tsunami of firepower (which is a good paradigm of the Imperial Guard anyway).




Automatically Appended Next Post:
To the OP, instead of using Mathhammer, try rolling all of the dice ten times and see what the averages are after all of that. I really don't see the point of trying to use numerical absolutes in a game based on random chance. Yes the odds are mathematically true, but seeing the application of them is something entirely different.

Ok, lets go down the list, since your childish antagonism seems to be preventing comprehension.
The Punisher has 24" range. That puts you in range of most melta options people have. The Hydras have 72" range. That puts you out of range of melta, auto and las cannons, and pretty much most anti tank that doesn't deep strike. Now, please tell me how high the chances are of you damaging a tank when you are not in range?

Secondly, your gripe against the front armor. By the time the punisher is in range, your opponent won't need to waste autocannons or lascannons on taking it down. They'll have melta. The AV 14 front won't do gak. Hydras, true, won't take as much to kill. Great. They also won't be anywhere near an opponents anti tank.

Finally, Squadron vs. Single tank. Against front armor 14, a lascannon will need around 18 shots to reliably kill. Against AV 12, its closer to 10. True, good job. Using long range anti tank against a tank that can't fire long range anyway, however . . . you should get the picture.

Oh I just saw the lumbering behemoth bs you're trying to pull. If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that the hydra only has one weapon and can therefore move 6" and still fire just as well as the Punisher. Oh, sorry, you'll get one extra heavy bolter or flamer shooting. That totally makes your argument worthwhile all of the sudden.

To summarize: Incoming fire on Hydras will have to deal with reaching across pretty much the table. Incoming fire on the Punisher will have to wait for it to lumber close before killing it, which it has to do before firing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stormrider wrote:

DarkHound wrote:I ran the Punisher with Heavy Bolter Sponsons and hullmount in a Vassal game last night. Over the course of the game, it made back its points, but that isn't what makes it my next purchase. This thing forces wound allocation, which means your opponent will lose special weapons, heavy weapons, hidden Powerfists, etc. If you've got a Mech army which simultaniously lacks torrent fire and targets vulnerable to anti-infantry fire, I'd definitely consider this over most Russes.

Thank you DarkHound, you, like so few, understand the point of the Punisher. It's not overly efficient, but it withers units away. Yeah the bullets aren't overly poweful, but 29 of them can easily make even some of the hardest units wilt under that torrent. It's like a tsunami of firepower (which is a good paradigm of the Imperial Guard anyway).




Automatically Appended Next Post:
To the OP, instead of using Mathhammer, try rolling all of the dice ten times and see what the averages are after all of that. I really don't see the point of trying to use numerical absolutes in a game based on random chance. Yes the odds are mathematically true, but seeing the application of them is something entirely different.

The more games you play, the closer your results are going to approach the mathematical average. Keep rolling those dice, and eventually, they'll line up pretty close to the average.
The thing is, IG already has incredibly efficient torrent firepower. Blob squads with orders will put out ridiculous numbers of shots. Why waste a HS slot on something your infantry has covered?

Nurglitch wrote:
In addition, and to address the notion that both have AV10 in close combat, the Punisher's Lumbering Behemoth rule will help to defend it in close combat since it can keep moving to prevent close combat attacks from hitting.

And then just pray that a fast (SM, Eldar, Tau, DE) or deepstriking (SM, CSM, Tau) melta or equivalent never comes near, Lumbering Behemoth can't save you from that.

Fafnir wrote:That's a very tight niche you're trying to fill. Especially when you consider just how easily they can fill it without encroaching on heavy support.

To be fair I'm running Imperial Armor so I get more battle tanks. I still think it shouldn't be under estimated. Torrent of fire you get from only a few units in the codex. Platoon Guard can deliver it, but only within 12" and only if they're ordered. Now you might say 'but 30 men can put out 60 shots at 24" so why do you only count the 12"?' Because of Strength 3; you need the extra 30 shots to overcome it. The Manticore can put out a torrent of wounds, but only if you roll high on the D3 and get some good scatters. Now I'm actually opening the codex and looking around... the Valkyrie with Missile Pods and Heavy Bolters can, I guess... None of those options lay on the number of wounds a Punisher will.

Irdiumstern wrote:The more games you play, the closer your results are going to approach the mathematical average. Keep rolling those dice, and eventually, they'll line up pretty close to the average.
The thing is, IG already has incredibly efficient torrent firepower. Blob squads with orders will put out ridiculous numbers of shots. Why waste a HS slot on something your infantry has covered?

Do you know what the average number of wounds a Punisher is going to inflict on a T4 squad? 9.57. If they've got 3+ armor, so that means atleast one of the important 3 members of that squad will die (the sarge, special weapons, or heavy/second weapons guy). It's reaping 55-85 points a turn against Marine Squads, and by doing its job it kills what would otherwise try to kill it. I don't know how else to put it: it makes things dead at a respectable rate.

Aren't most MCs in armies which don't have access to a lot of Melta, namely Tyranids?

Apart from Zoeanthropes, most Tyranid anti-tank comes in the form of MC attacks in H2H.

Oh I just saw the lumbering behemoth bs you're trying to pull. If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that the hydra only has one weapon and can therefore move 6" and still fire just as well as the Punisher. Oh, sorry, you'll get one extra heavy bolter or flamer shooting. That totally makes your argument worthwhile all of the sudden.

Glasshouses and all... hydras have 3 weapons stock, 2 hydra autocannons + 1 heavy bolter, hydras don't want to move

It wouldn't be too hard to get behind them or into assault. If that's the case, you're then dealing with nice soft and creamy AV10 on the both of them.

Punisher has AV11 rear armour.



The biggest problem with the punisher is the extremely poor range. 24" is terribad. 24" gives you 1, maybe 2 rounds of firing (if you ever get more than that, it is just because the gun can't really kill anything reliably, and as such the tank isn't that much of a threat)
The second problem is that it is overpriced for what it can do

Illumini wrote:

Oh I just saw the lumbering behemoth bs you're trying to pull. If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that the hydra only has one weapon and can therefore move 6" and still fire just as well as the Punisher. Oh, sorry, you'll get one extra heavy bolter or flamer shooting. That totally makes your argument worthwhile all of the sudden.

Glasshouses and all... hydras have 3 weapons stock, 2 hydra autocannons + 1 heavy bolter, hydras don't want to move

Hmm sorry about that, I was sure they had the cannons combined into one like the exterminator.

Comparing just the effectiveness of a single round of shooting, sure, I'd give you that a paskuisher is better. But it's still not worth taking.

Firstly, as was mentioned, the pasquisher is MUCH more fragile. A single weapon destroyed result (or worse) is all that's needed to shut that 250 point tank down for the rest of the game.

Secondly, also as was mentioned, the range is really short. This means that you're only going to get like 2 or maybe 3 rounds of shooting against a monstrous creature. The thing that you missed is that there are TMCs out there that have 6 wounds, which means that you're not incredibly likely to kill it in 2 turns before it rips you apart.

Thirdly, it's way points ineffective. A pasquisher costs 250 points. A Trygon costs 160. This means that you need to sacrifice more from the rest of your list to handle his monstrous creatures than he needs to sacrifice from the rest of this list to put them there.

Imagine an arms race. I put down a tervigon. You put down a pasquisher to stop it. I put down a trygon. You put down a regular punisher and a hydra to stop it. I put down a second tervigon. You put down 2 more hydras and a banewolf to try and stop it.

I've just spent 480 points on MCs. You've spent 805 on vehicles in order to stop it. In a 1000 point game, you're looking at 6 vehicles and 20 troops. I've got 3 monstrous creatures and enough points to buy two more, in addition to troops (not that I need a lot, as I've got tervigons).

Not only have you cripled your entrire list by only buying something that's good against a PART of mine, but the most important thing is that after you've maxed out your points trying to take down my MCs, I still have more points to spend on MCs, which you're just not going to be able to take down, because you don't have the points.

Comparing a single round of shooting between two vehicles does, indeed show which is better. Looking at the bigger picture, a paskquisher still isn't worth taking, much less other vehicles for the job.

DarkHound wrote:

Fafnir wrote:That's a very tight niche you're trying to fill. Especially when you consider just how easily they can fill it without encroaching on heavy support.

To be fair I'm running Imperial Armor so I get more battle tanks. I still think it shouldn't be under estimated. Torrent of fire you get from only a few units in the codex. Platoon Guard can deliver it, but only within 12" and only if they're ordered. Now you might say 'but 30 men can put out 60 shots at 24" so why do you only count the 12"?' Because of Strength 3; you need the extra 30 shots to overcome it. The Manticore can put out a torrent of wounds, but only if you roll high on the D3 and get some good scatters. Now I'm actually opening the codex and looking around... the Valkyrie with Missile Pods and Heavy Bolters can, I guess... None of those options lay on the number of wounds a Punisher will.

Irdiumstern wrote:The more games you play, the closer your results are going to approach the mathematical average. Keep rolling those dice, and eventually, they'll line up pretty close to the average.
The thing is, IG already has incredibly efficient torrent firepower. Blob squads with orders will put out ridiculous numbers of shots. Why waste a HS slot on something your infantry has covered?

Do you know what the average number of wounds a Punisher is going to inflict on a T4 squad? 9.57. If they've got 3+ armor, so that means atleast one of the important 3 members of that squad will die (the sarge, special weapons, or heavy/second weapons guy). It's reaping 55-85 points a turn against Marine Squads, and by doing its job it kills what would otherwise try to kill it. I don't know how else to put it: it makes things dead at a respectable rate.

Imperial Armor? Where is that list, sounds interesting. I've never seen it, so I can't comment.

Hmmm you're including heavy bolters in that number, I presume, because just the punisher cannon only nets 6.667 wounds. 3 wounds is solely from the heavy bolters, which you can slap on any leman russ tank you bring. And there's better main guns than the gattling cannon.

I'd just like to point out here that the 'LB' special rule for the Punisher hurts more then it helps. With most of the other Lemun Russ variants you have range on your side so only moving between 7"-12" a turn off-road doesn't kill you a whole lot, but with the Punisher where you want to get up close ASAP a few bad roles could see your 250 pts burned without it firing a shot simply because it's too slow.

On most table tops the no mans land is between 18" and 24" does that sound about right? So in your first turn if you deploy right on the edge of your 12" deploymemt zone and move up "full speed" on your first turn you're covering an average of about 9" a turn giving you a reliable reach of 33" a turn on a 48" board and you still require LOS. Compared to the alternatives mostly in the artillary catagory, it's a bad investment for a "Take On All Comers" army. Now if you are the type to custom taylor your forces to the army you are fighting then this would be a great choice in a few situations.

I think the problem is that people are selling the Punisher as a component for any core army when at best it is an alternative to consider in very specific situations, and only then if you taylor your lists.

The Hydras have 72" range. That puts you out of range of melta, auto and las cannons, and pretty much most anti tank that doesn't deep strike.

May i ask at what stage in a normal game you will be able to sit back 72"?

Unless its apoc, that range is not needed by any means, so doesent really help much.

Irdiumstern wrote:Imperial Armor? Where is that list, sounds interesting. I've never seen it, so I can't comment.

Hmmm you're including heavy bolters in that number, I presume, because just the punisher cannon only nets 6.667 wounds. 3 wounds is solely from the heavy bolters, which you can slap on any leman russ tank you bring. And there's better main guns than the gattling cannon.

The Imperial Armor 1: Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy had to be updated for 5th Edition and is avaliable for free download from Forgeworld. You lose access to literally everything in your Troops section except Infantry Squads in Chimeras, but gain the ability to take Leman Russes in the IG's weakest slots (HQ, Elites, Troops).

Now while it is true that you can take those heavy bolters on any Leman Russ, it is important that they are there to illustrate what the Punisher would do against actual opponents.

Comparing it to other main guns is difficult because quantifying templates against infantry is difficult. Against vehicles, they all have a uniform shape which makes for easy math, but infantry can be spread out in different ways. In my experience, an average 10 man squad is spread out so there is about 3" of acceptable scatter for a large blast template, about two for a small. Within those three inches the template should get 4 or 5 models, while the small gets 2 or 3; so we'll call it 4.5 and 2.5. The odds of a blast template staying within 3" when it scatters is about 66% at BS3. So with an average of 66% accuracy on 4.5 targets with a 2+ to wound, you get 2.4 wounds that your opponent will probably get cover against. That handles the Demolisher, Battle Tank and Eradicator. As for the Executioner, you've got three shots, each with about 60% accuracy. So that's 3x2.5=7.5, which is then multiplied by the accuracy, and it wounds 83% of the time. That leaves you with 3.7 wounds yet to be saved. So, when it comes time for your opponent to take saves, if they are MEQs in cover the Punisher will cause 2.2 kills, the Demolisher/Battle Tank will cause 1.2 kills (the Eradicator does even worse), and the Executioner kills 1.85. Against MEQs in cover, I conclude the Punisher is your best bet.

I also like it better against hordes of GEQs or Orks. In these scenarios the blast template is vastly more accurate, but can only hit so many models. We'll say acceptable scatter is 7", and the template catches 7 models. With an 83.5% accuracy, a blast template hitting 7 models will deal 4.8 wounds before saves. Against Orks, who'll have a KFF, they kill 3.2 Boyz, and against Gaunts or whatever that are out of cover they'll kill the 4.8 (obviously in cover they only reap 2.4 kills). The Punisher will wound 6.7 Orks, and after cover he kills 4.4. Against GEQs (T3, 5+) he'll kill 5.5 (or 4.2 kills in cover). So the Punisher actually does (relatively) better the more the enemy tries to hide himself from your other guns.

Anyone want to see the Punisher vs AV10 and 11, compared to the other tanks?

Fafnir wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:So you're saying it's easier to kill an AV14 Leman Russ than it is a squadron of AV12 Hydras?

It wouldn't be too hard to get behind them or into assault. If that's the case, you're then dealing with nice soft and creamy AV10 on the both of them.

Thats where your wrong. Punishers have 11 rear armour. I fielded one once with pask and 3 heavy bolters and a heavy stubber. The Maingun did almost nothing, but the Heavy Bolters killed like 6 genestealers. That doesnt make the punisher good, it makes heavy bolters at bs4 good.

I have also, in my recent games, seen the value of a demolisher cannon. I never believed in them, I thought their range was pathetic. But now i see it is as good as and can even surpass the executioner in killing power. It is a huge threat to land raiders, and heavan forbid, my resident BA player is fond of land raider redeemers. Ill definatley be fielding a demolisher with either plasma sponsons or heavy bolters depending on if im versing tyranids or blood angels.

Jaon wrote:Punishers have 11 rear armour.

Which dies just as fast to S8 powerfists, meltabombs, DCCWs and TMCs, among other things. Both tanks are very weak in assault.

DarkHound wrote:Anyone want to see the Punisher vs AV10 and 11, compared to the other tanks?

No, because no russ is points effective against these targets. It's like comparing a lasgun to a bolter for the purposes of putting down MCs. Why bother when there are clearly more appropriate weapons elsewhere?

DarkHound wrote:Against Orks, who'll have a KFF, they kill 3.2 Boyz, and against Gaunts or whatever that are out of cover they'll kill the 4.8 (obviously in cover they only reap 2.4 kills). The Punisher will wound 6.7 Orks, and after cover he kills 4.4. Against GEQs (T3, 5+) he'll kill 5.5 (or 4.2 kills in cover). So the Punisher actually does (relatively) better the more the enemy tries to hide himself from your other guns.

But it's still not points effective. You're spending 250 points to take down 30 points of boyz. Better does not mean good.

Fafnir wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:So you're saying it's easier to kill an AV14 Leman Russ than it is a squadron of AV12 Hydras?

It wouldn't be too hard to get behind them or into assault. If that's the case, you're then dealing with nice soft and creamy AV10 on the both of them.

Fafnir wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
In addition, and to address the notion that both have AV10 in close combat, the Punisher's Lumbering Behemoth rule will help to defend it in close combat since it can keep moving to prevent close combat attacks from hitting.

And then just pray that a fast (SM, Eldar, Tau, DE) or deepstriking (SM, CSM, Tau) melta or equivalent never comes near, Lumbering Behemoth can't save you from that.

Because its a simple as snapping your fingers to get units in the enemys deployment? bubblewraps, movement/LOS blocking, the rest of the army you are fighting through. My CSM games against guard are simply a struggle to get there- once I'm there, i can tear apart a guard line in a few turns easy- Just getting there is the issue!

Ailaros wrote:But it's still not points effective. You're spending 250 points to take down 30 points of boyz. Better does not mean good.

Uhh, that's just the 20 shots from the Punisher's main gun compared to the main gun of other tanks. Without Pask. Without any Heavy Bolters or Stubber. So 180 points of Punisher will kill 220 points of Boyz over 5 turns. I'd say that's not bad.

Ailaros wrote:No, because no russ is points effective against these targets. It's like comparing a lasgun to a bolter for the purposes of putting down MCs. Why bother when there are clearly more appropriate weapons elsewhere?

Because sometimes the enemy presents no other targets, so one might as well shoot at it. Oh, and the Exterminator says 'hi.'

DarkHound wrote:So 180 points of Punisher will kill 220 points of Boyz over 5 turns. I'd say that's not bad.

I agree, it wouldn't be bad if it got to shoot for ork boyz for 5 turns. As that will never happen, it does sort of knock out this one possibly good scenario. In reality, you're going to get more like 2 turns of shooting before you get tenkbusta'd, outflank rokkit kopta'd or horribly powerklawed.

DarkHound wrote:

Ailaros wrote:No, because no russ is points effective against these targets. It's like comparing a lasgun to a bolter for the purposes of putting down MCs. Why bother when there are clearly more appropriate weapons elsewhere?

Because sometimes the enemy presents no other targets, so one might as well shoot at it. Oh, and the Exterminator says 'hi.'

"Because there's nothing else to shoot the gun at" is not a compelling argument to take that gun. I'd prefer to take weapons that are good at what they do. Relying on how they're not as bad at tertiary roles is not a good way to sell this particular product.

Ailaros wrote:

DarkHound wrote:So 180 points of Punisher will kill 220 points of Boyz over 5 turns. I'd say that's not bad.

I agree, it wouldn't be bad if it got to shoot for ork boyz for 5 turns. As that will never happen, it does sort of knock out this one possibly good scenario. In reality, you're going to get more like 2 turns of shooting before you get tenkbusta'd, outflank rokkit kopta'd or horribly powerklawed.

Because a Leman Russ is going to get killed by Ork shooting... yeah... And outflanking Rokkit Koptas? The odds of it coming in on turn 2 and on the correct side is 33%. Coming in on turn 3 and on the right side is 43%. Then once they get on the board they've got a 27% chance of penetrating per Kopta when hitting rear armor, without cover. Excuess me if I'm not concerned about them.

The Orks' movement should just put them in range on turn 1. You can continue shooting on turn 2 as they move 6-12". If they didn't run, or rolled poorly on their run you can continue shooting without moving on turn 3. At this point the Ork horde will consist of about 6 or 7 models, which you'll mop up on turn 4's shooting phase. If Koptas do show up, you'll get more points in a round of shooting them then you would the boyz; you'll get 2.5 from wounds from the gattling gun, 2.25 wounds from bolters, or 1.25 if they have cover. So on average you'll kill 2 Koptas which forces a morale check on even 5 man teams. With Ld7, they've got a good chance of outright fleeing.

So, basically, if you get the rules wrong for both the Hydra and the Punisher with Knight-Commander Pask, then Hydras are good and Punishers are bad. Cool.

On another note, I am so TOTALLY stealing MC Mathhammer as my "hip-hop" name.