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im thinking of getting the new Deathstrike/manticore model but i cant decide which would be best in a game. any advise on which is best and and how to use them effectivly would be great.

Thanks

I don't imagine you'll make your points up with the deathstrike, although haveing a giant missile on the board more than makes up for it. but i would go for the manticore

Manticore! all the way. great against vehicles and hordes.

95% of the time, manticore. It's reliable and the amount of shots over the course of the game is far better than one shot that can scatter and do nothing.

Manticore. Without a doubt. Granted that if you can launch the Deathstrike it'll cause some serious pain but it's a massive risk, as the enemy can keep peppering the Deathstrike with heavy weapons and if they don't destroy it, they'll reduce the chance of it firing.

Manticore. It wrecks vehicles, and dominates hordes.

Manticore, but buy 2 instead of 1, mitigates d3 randomness, and mants handle both anti tank and infantry very well.

Manticore

Maaaaanticore, although I do think you should bust out a Deathstrike at every opportunity. Any time that losing would have no drawbacks, bring a Deathstrike instead. They're just so fun.

Manticore - no doubt

manticore.

deathstrikes are loltastic every once in awhile, but they're not reliable, and they're not useful at all against mobile armies.

Manticores are good, but, in my mind they are no longer great. They're good against big groups of 4+ infantry or worse, but they don't tend to do a lot against skimmers (especially wave serpents), except DE raiders, which lots of stuff can kill. Basically, they're good against other guard artillery and conventional transport armies that your opponent isn't all that great with smoke.

I mean, they look really great on paper, but the more I've played personally, the more circumstanced I find myself in where the firepower of the manticore is mitigated. Against good lists, I've been finding them really struggling to get their points back in enemy carnage.

Still, I'd definitely take the manticore over the deathstrike any day in a competitive game.

Ailaros wrote:manticore.

deathstrikes are loltastic every once in awhile, but they're not reliable, and they're not useful at all against mobile armies.

Manticores are good, but, in my mind they are no longer great. They're good against big groups of 4+ infantry or worse, but they don't tend to do a lot against skimmers (especially wave serpents), except DE raiders, which lots of stuff can kill. Basically, they're good against other guard artillery and conventional transport armies that your opponent isn't all that great with smoke.

I mean, they look really great on paper, but the more I've played personally, the more circumstanced I find myself in where the firepower of the manticore is mitigated. Against good lists, I've been finding them really struggling to get their points back in enemy carnage.

Still, I'd definitely take the manticore over the deathstrike any day in a competitive game.

Have you used them against Land Raiders? Just saying, they wreck most vehicles easily.

Manticores easily wreck vehicles, even if it scatters off ordinance and s5 on side armor can still glance/pen.

The manticore is the answer to every question the guard could ask, great AT, and excellent anti infantry.

Gavo wrote:Have you used them against Land Raiders? Just saying, they wreck most vehicles easily.

Yeah, this time, and this time. I also just played a game today that involved a land raider (of the chaos variety). One of the two manticores scattered way away, and the other hit with the ranging shot (and missed with the other shot), for a pen which stunned it (which got thrown out by demonic posession). The next turn Al'Rahem showed up with 3 meltaguns and "bring it down" for a wrecked and an exploded result.

The problem with the manticore is that, when it hits, it has the potential do to terrible damage. The problem, though, is that it's only guard-accurate. Really, it's just a couple-shot S10 weapon. The potential is there to "wreck most vehicles easily", but on the field it's dissappointing. Sure I've had bad luck against land raiders recently, but really, even when they hit, they still only have like a 1/4 chance of wrecking them. As such, you're not all that likely to kill a raider before it drops off its cargo anyways (especially if it smokes), and, as mentioned, it's pretty hard to kill skimmers (especially those cursed wave serpents), which pretty much leaves them with a wrecking rate that could be described as "easy" against really light vehicles, at which point the manticore becomes points-ineffective.

Now, I did seriously wreck some dire avengers with manticores today, but that was only because my opponent was being seriously silly and got them out of their vehicles (twice... Those blade storms were barely worth it, at best). As such, I'm starting to view them more as giant shotguns and less as credible anti-tank (still decent anti transport, but still).

So your way works better when theyre bad and leave an expensive priority target near a short board edge with an outflanking infantry platoon en route?

Just because you were unlucky doesnt mean its bad, thats why you take 2.

I DO take 2, and still... meh.

The thing is that I can take nearly 9 meltaguns in 3 squads for the price of a manticore, and I've definitely downed more vehicles with meltaguns than manticores. Only a few times have I had the benefit of opponents being silly and leaving vehicles near board edges.

Definitely Manticore! Our best heavy support choice by far, obliterating anything from Land Raiders to hordes. Not as excellent against marine squads, but IG have tons of options for cracking terminator/power armor.


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kill dem stunties wrote:Manticore, but buy 2 instead of 1, mitigates d3 randomness.

Also this.

Ailaros,

How are you firing your manticores? I find that direct fire is considerably more effective than barrage. I haven't crunched the numbers but I feel like the greater chance to land direct hits is worth 2 points of armor.

Ailaros wrote:

Gavo wrote:Have you used them against Land Raiders? Just saying, they wreck most vehicles easily.

Yeah, this time, and this time.

I would suggest dropping the priests from your combat blobs for another squad with a power weapon. Extra wounds and attacks will always be useful, the re-roll from an assault may not always come up. You don't really need to melee anti-tank with all your meltaguns and high S artillery, and if you're faced with a dreadnought, the T3 W1 priest will likely get waxed before even getting a swing.

Their weapon load-out can also use a second look. The grenade launchers serve no purpose there, as shooting at light transports from a distance is the last thing these squads should be doing. You could invest in more flamers (could leave you out of assault range) or meltaguns if you're worried about diminished anti-tank capability. These squads are excellent targets for BiD, as they are not mounted, and their size allows you to string a couple of guys back to stay in order range.

Finally, although this is only a nitpick, I would recommend heavy flamers on the manticores and basilisk. A BS3 heavy bolter that may get to fire once a game won't do much of anything. A single shot from a heavy flamer could do far more. When my artillery lose their main weapon but are not destroyed, their job immediately converts to tank shock and infantry clean-up, as well as moving up to provide mobile cover for other army elements.

BishopX wrote:Ailaros,

How are you firing your manticores? I find that direct fire is considerably more effective than barrage. I haven't crunched the numbers but I feel like the greater chance to land direct hits is worth 2 points of armor.

You realize that if you fire indirect with line of sight you still reduce the scatter distance, right? The only limitation at that point is that the shot fails if it's within minimum range.

willydstyle wrote:

BishopX wrote:Ailaros,

How are you firing your manticores? I find that direct fire is considerably more effective than barrage. I haven't crunched the numbers but I feel like the greater chance to land direct hits is worth 2 points of armor.

You realize that if you fire indirect with line of sight you still reduce the scatter distance, right? The only limitation at that point is that the shot fails if it's within minimum range.

This is probably going to turn into a rules debate, but as I play it the manticore uses the rules for multiple barrage weapons when firing indirectly, which decreases the accuracy.

[quote=TerminusAutomatically Appended Next Post:

kill dem stunties wrote:Manticore, but buy 2 instead of 1, mitigates d3 randomness.

Also this.

i would personaly take a mantacore over a deathstrike missile because even through the deathstrike missile is stronger it can miss and you only have one shot, but with a mantacore you have 4(12) shots, and they have a greater chance of hitting

Ailaros wrote:As well, I've killed WAY more vehicles with eviscerators than I have with manticores (and you get 3 priests for the price of just a single manticore).

As for the rest of the blob, taking a priest or taking an extra 10 dudes with an extra power weapon comes out about equal in the long term. The difference is that the priest gets an eviscerator.

I suppose I just have better luck with mine, plus I use a lot more heavy weapons than you.

I'm not sure what you mean by "long-term". A priest's re-roll is equal to an extra squad's attacks only if you actually get the charge. If assaulted yourself or fighting subsequent rounds, the squad is an extra 9 regular and 3 PW attacks. If you ever get an opportunity to FRFSRF (which I've used once or twice to great success), that's an extra special weapon and 25 las-shots. Plus, there's the simple matter of 10 extra bodies to catch bullets and add to the bubble-wrap.

But yeah, now that I've looked over your list and realized you have no heavy weapons what-so-ever (!), you do need the priests for anti-tank.

Terminus wrote:But yeah, now that I've looked over your list and realized you have no heavy weapons what-so-ever (!), you do need the priests for anti-tank.

At least one cannot say that I do not practice that which I preach

I went through my battle reports in my current series and counted. In 10 games...

320 points of manticores killed 3 vehicles
120 points of priests killed 4 vehicles
390 points of meltaguns killed 6 vehicles

So I suppose I haven't killed WAY more with the priests, but I still did kill more, and for nearly a third of the points. If anything, this is telling me I need MORE priests.

Terminus wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by "long-term".

So, against 10 marines on the charge, after three rounds of close combat the 20+priest kills all of them with 10 men left (assuming the priest never makes it into close combat with the eviscerator, in which case the combat is likely to end faster). In the same time the 30 man squad kills the squad in the same time with 20 men left. Damage-wise, they do about the same assuming a charge. Without the charge, the priest blob doesnt' do much less damage, relatively speaking. As such, I consider them to be about the same in several-turn engagements.

The difference is that the 10-man dude is, unsurprisingly, more durable, whereas the priest can engage more target types for more damage (like demon princes and vehicles).

Of course, once funds are available, I'm planning on eventually running power blobs which have both 30 guys AND a priest.

Again, the difference is 12 close combat attacks, or a special weapon and 25 rapid-fire las shots. They also cover more area. Whether that qualifies as "much" more is subjective, but I feel it's worth it.

As with dreadnoughts, I doubt you're having much success engaging Daemon Princes with priests. Admittedly, I've only run priests about half a dozen times, but every time they got stuck in melee against something that could fight back, they'd receive a couple of wounds from focused attacks, fail a save, and that's that.

Roger you need some more infantry first

GoDz KI11JOY x wrote:Roger you need some more infantry first

yea i know however i do have a hq now and a 10 man infantry squad. but yea ill get more troops first.

rogersss wrote:

GoDz KI11JOY x wrote:Roger you need some more infantry first

yea i know however i do have a hq now and a 10 man infantry squad. but yea ill get more troops first.

Hell, that's all you need. I say purchase 3 manticores and 6 vendettas next, and you have a solid core to your army.

You're joking, right Willy?