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Considering how elite you have to be to even wear terminator armour, don't you think they would have 'better than marine' stats? I was thinking of trying this:

5 5 4 5 2 5 2 10 2+5++

So basically, another WS, BS, Toughness, Initiative and wound...Is this that bad? I'd be willing to pay more for them of course.

I just never understood why they were so...weak. You have to be a great veteran to wear the armor, so you'd probably have the +1 BS anyway. The higher initiative may be stupid, considering how large they are in the first place.

How does....60 points sound per model? I was thinking they should be less than..Sentinels, but more than regular terminators...

Thoughts? This would be a house rule thing.

it could work. Except the terminators have to be 65 points each..

I think I'll get rid of the extra initiative and lower it to 3, then give them +1 S.

I'll just make them 70 points, with any combination of weapons 5 points more.

Increase WS, BS, S, T, W? Bit much.

No +1 Str; Str 10 powerfists would be right-out; not even a Str 9 Powerfist(being that the +1 Str would/should be granted by the armor and thus a characteristic modifier).

Bike-like Toughness does not really make that much sense either yes they have the big bulky tough termy armor; which should make it harder to wound them, but that is indicated by the 2+/5+ save.

Initiative Penalty does not entirely even matter; most Termies are carrying powerfists or equivalents, excepting the Sgt, and Lightning Claw assault terminators, and you are punishing them for no real reason.

Also no Veteran Marines are any better at Shooting nor Close combat than standard marines; and terminators are just Sternguard/Vanguard Veterans in Tactical Dreadnought armor; so if you wanted termies to have increased skills, then Stern/Van-guard vets woiuld need the Same stat-boost. Same goes for wounds.

Basically they are fine the way they are.

Kommissar Kel wrote:No +1 Str; Str 10 powerfists would be right-out; not even a Str 9 Powerfist(being that the +1 Str would/should be granted by the armor and thus a characteristic modifier).

Bike-like Toughness does not really make that much sense either yes they have the big bulky tough termy armor; which should make it harder to wound them, but that is indicated by the 2+/5+ save.

Initiative Penalty does not entirely even matter; most Termies are carrying powerfists or equivalents, excepting the Sgt, and Lightning Claw assault terminators, and you are punishing them for no real reason.

Also no Veteran Marines are any better at Shooting nor Close combat than standard marines; and terminators are just Sternguard/Vanguard Veterans in Tactical Dreadnought armor; so if you wanted termies to have increased skills, then Stern/Van-guard vets woiuld need the Same stat-boost. Same goes for wounds.

Basically they are fine the way they are.

Thats where i find that wrong...
See Terminators are alot taller than their power armored brethren and have been serving for centuries. And not only that but they are wiser and more powerful. Plus the Terminators in the books are insanely hard to kill.
Space Marines as they age get stronger, bigger, and alot more intellegent. Plus people always forget that they have a fricking targeting system in their helmets. Every space marine has a targeting system inside their helmets.
Terminator Helmets have alert systems and speed checkers, GPS, Instant Intellegence, Squad View, automiatically updating combat trackers, and life signatures. Terminator armor is by far the most technological wonder in the entire imperium. It has everything you need in there. Its armor also holds a shield generator basically!

Kommissar Kel wrote:No +1 Str; Str 10 powerfists would be right-out; not even a Str 9 Powerfist(being that the +1 Str would/should be granted by the armor and thus a characteristic modifier).What? Does it really matter? Who says everyone uses powerfists? Lightning claws are much more fun, and most people would be happy to get another S on them

Bike-like Toughness does not really make that much sense either yes they have the big bulky tough termy armor; which should make it harder to wound them, but that is indicated by the 2+/5+ save.
I disagree, Termies are more solid and are basically walking tanks, the save represents how well the armor can save them if they actually DO get hit, Not how well it generally protects them

Initiative Penalty does not entirely even matter; most Termies are carrying powerfists or equivalents, excepting the Sgt, and Lightning Claw assault terminators, and you are punishing them for no real reason.
Not really. I very rarely take Pfists because of how slow they are, and how little they actually do against swarm and what-not
Also no Veteran Marines are any better at Shooting nor Close combat than standard marines; and terminators are just Sternguard/Vanguard Veterans in Tactical Dreadnought armor; so if you wanted termies to have increased skills, then Stern/Van-guard vets woiuld need the Same stat-boost. Same goes for wounds.
Um, have you read ANY fluff? SEARGEANTS are way better than the rest of the unit. VETERANS are so far superior to seargents that it's funny. Veterans are incredibly skilled individuals that aren't well represented in the game either. Think of terminators as the veterans of veterans. The absolute best of the best of the chapter/legion. It's not like they throw a regular old marine in a suit of terminator armor.

Basically they are fine the way they are.

I wouldn't touch the wounds at all, a second wound is something really, and I mean REALLY big. Think about how strong the DA termies would be with a second wound. Wound allocation is bad enough with nobs and thunderwolves. Having it on 2+/3++ guys riding in a land raider is pure madness.

Aaaaanyway...I would say that a boost in toughness would work, with a decent price hike though.
+1S would work from a fluff perspective, but for gameplay I would leave it out.
Weapon skill increase would work very well, aslong as it's on Assault termies only, and once again with a price hike, hitting most things on 3+ is very good.
Ballistic skill I wouldn't touch either, if only for gameplay balance, hitting on 2+ is huuuge.
Initiative...no changes there, I think that the cumbersome armour and the increased strength sort of balance eachother out.

They are better than regular Marines. 2+/5++(or 3++ o.O) with two attacks base, base LD of 9, all sorts of power gubbinz and heavy weapons with relentless?

Oh, and they can teleport.

Yeah, they're pretty sick for 40ish points. If you want really super-bad-ass terminators look at GKs, as well as their points cost.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:No +1 Str; Str 10 powerfists would be right-out; not even a Str 9 Powerfist(being that the +1 Str would/should be granted by the armor and thus a characteristic modifier).What? Does it really matter? Who says everyone uses powerfists? Lightning claws are much more fun, and most people would be happy to get another S on them

Bike-like Toughness does not really make that much sense either yes they have the big bulky tough termy armor; which should make it harder to wound them, but that is indicated by the 2+/5+ save.
I disagree, Termies are more solid and are basically walking tanks, the save represents how well the armor can save them if they actually DO get hit, Not how well it generally protects them

Initiative Penalty does not entirely even matter; most Termies are carrying powerfists or equivalents, excepting the Sgt, and Lightning Claw assault terminators, and you are punishing them for no real reason.
Not really. I very rarely take Pfists because of how slow they are, and how little they actually do against swarm and what-not
Also no Veteran Marines are any better at Shooting nor Close combat than standard marines; and terminators are just Sternguard/Vanguard Veterans in Tactical Dreadnought armor; so if you wanted termies to have increased skills, then Stern/Van-guard vets woiuld need the Same stat-boost. Same goes for wounds.
Um, have you read ANY fluff? SEARGEANTS are way better than the rest of the unit. VETERANS are so far superior to seargents that it's funny. Veterans are incredibly skilled individuals that aren't well represented in the game either. Think of terminators as the veterans of veterans. The absolute best of the best of the chapter/legion. It's not like they throw a regular old marine in a suit of terminator armor.

Basically they are fine the way they are.

I agree with samus. But vanguard and sternguard like Terminators HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Terminators have been living for centuries! Vanguard and Sternguard have only been living between 100-190 years.

Asherian Command wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:No +1 Str; Str 10 powerfists would be right-out; not even a Str 9 Powerfist(being that the +1 Str would/should be granted by the armor and thus a characteristic modifier).What? Does it really matter? Who says everyone uses powerfists? Lightning claws are much more fun, and most people would be happy to get another S on them

Bike-like Toughness does not really make that much sense either yes they have the big bulky tough termy armor; which should make it harder to wound them, but that is indicated by the 2+/5+ save.
I disagree, Termies are more solid and are basically walking tanks, the save represents how well the armor can save them if they actually DO get hit, Not how well it generally protects them

Initiative Penalty does not entirely even matter; most Termies are carrying powerfists or equivalents, excepting the Sgt, and Lightning Claw assault terminators, and you are punishing them for no real reason.
Not really. I very rarely take Pfists because of how slow they are, and how little they actually do against swarm and what-not
Also no Veteran Marines are any better at Shooting nor Close combat than standard marines; and terminators are just Sternguard/Vanguard Veterans in Tactical Dreadnought armor; so if you wanted termies to have increased skills, then Stern/Van-guard vets woiuld need the Same stat-boost. Same goes for wounds.
Um, have you read ANY fluff? SEARGEANTS are way better than the rest of the unit. VETERANS are so far superior to seargents that it's funny. Veterans are incredibly skilled individuals that aren't well represented in the game either. Think of terminators as the veterans of veterans. The absolute best of the best of the chapter/legion. It's not like they throw a regular old marine in a suit of terminator armor.

Basically they are fine the way they are.

I agree with samus. But vanguard and sternguard like Terminators HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

How do you figure? Stenguard are better at shooting than Termies but can't do nearly as well in CC. Vanguard aren't as good in CC either, what with their 3+ save and with Jump Packs and weapon upgrades they're comparable to Terminators in price.

Monster Rain wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:No +1 Str; Str 10 powerfists would be right-out; not even a Str 9 Powerfist(being that the +1 Str would/should be granted by the armor and thus a characteristic modifier).What? Does it really matter? Who says everyone uses powerfists? Lightning claws are much more fun, and most people would be happy to get another S on them

Bike-like Toughness does not really make that much sense either yes they have the big bulky tough termy armor; which should make it harder to wound them, but that is indicated by the 2+/5+ save.
I disagree, Termies are more solid and are basically walking tanks, the save represents how well the armor can save them if they actually DO get hit, Not how well it generally protects them

Initiative Penalty does not entirely even matter; most Termies are carrying powerfists or equivalents, excepting the Sgt, and Lightning Claw assault terminators, and you are punishing them for no real reason.
Not really. I very rarely take Pfists because of how slow they are, and how little they actually do against swarm and what-not
Also no Veteran Marines are any better at Shooting nor Close combat than standard marines; and terminators are just Sternguard/Vanguard Veterans in Tactical Dreadnought armor; so if you wanted termies to have increased skills, then Stern/Van-guard vets woiuld need the Same stat-boost. Same goes for wounds.
Um, have you read ANY fluff? SEARGEANTS are way better than the rest of the unit. VETERANS are so far superior to seargents that it's funny. Veterans are incredibly skilled individuals that aren't well represented in the game either. Think of terminators as the veterans of veterans. The absolute best of the best of the chapter/legion. It's not like they throw a regular old marine in a suit of terminator armor.

Basically they are fine the way they are.

I agree with samus. But vanguard and sternguard like Terminators HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

How do you figure? Stenguard are better at shooting than Termies but can't do nearly as well in CC. Vanguard aren't as good in CC either, what with their 3+ save and with Jump Packs and weapon upgrades they're comparable to Terminators in price.

Termies that are given their actual weapons in lore are flipping rigged. They rarely die and they are able to hold back entire invasions by themeselves. In gameplay they suck. Because they are slow and their weapons need to pack a little more of a punch. Like a longer range or special ammo. Also the Termies own against vechiles and heavy infantry. Vanguards are just terrible and I only use them if I know its going to be close quarters.
Also the terminators have been in service for centuries not like 100 years.

Fluff Wise you do have a point, however I do think they are good right where they are.

At most I would see the increase in WS & BS but not much beyond that. Especially 2 wounds. That would be a bit ridiculous. The problem with increasing their stats and increasing their point cost you would have to increase the suriviability. I wouldnt spend 65pts on it with stats like that unless you could assure me that it could take a punishment. Which, would at the least mean a 4+ invunerable or higher/lower. Which, would equally be slowed.

Not to mention there should be no unit out that in the game of 40k that someone should feel justified in spending potentially 650pts on.

Comintern wrote:Fluff Wise you do have a point, however I do think they are good right where they are.

At most I would see the increase in WS & BS but not much beyond that. Especially 2 wounds. That would be a bit ridiculous. The problem with increasing their stats and increasing their point cost you would have to increase the suriviability. I wouldnt spend 65pts on it with stats like that unless you could assure me that it could take a punishment. Which, would at the least mean a 4+ invunerable or higher/lower. Which, would equally be slowed.

Not to mention there should be no unit out that in the game of 40k that someone should feel justified in spending potentially 650pts on.

yet people spend 650 on honorguards.....
And on vanguards. They need to fix that.
Honorguard cost wayyyyyyyyyy tooo much.
Same with Vanguards.

I would also like to point out that a Veteran Sergeant is a first company veteran assigned to lead a squad from the other companies.

Someone said that First Company vets are way better than vet sgts. Just wanted to clear that up.

Monster Rain wrote:I would also like to point out that a Veteran Sergeant is a first company veteran assigned to lead a squad from the other companies.

Someone said that First Company vets are way better than vet sgts. Just wanted to clear that up.

Thats true. But Veteran Segerants are all part of the 1st company. As with Captains.

Just improve their invulrable to 4+ would do it for me, would make them much better.

Although an extra pip of WS/BS would make sense as well.

Rest would be fine as it is.

Have neither of you read the fluff?

terminators are not super veterans; they are standard Vets from the 1st company that where tactical dreadnought armor. That is all; the only thing they have over any other Vets is that they have been rated to wear the armor(and most if not all vets in the 1st company are thusly rated)

hell veterans(aside from Sergeants)are only found in the 1st Company of most space marine chapters(space wolves are the only Chapter i can think of where this is not the case; and their veterans, wolfguard, are also all rated to wear termy armor, their really old veterans are either scouts or heavy weapon specialists). Standard Codex adherent Marines have 100 terminator armor trained marines; those marines often do not fight in terminator armor but instead go to field as Vangaurd or Sternguard Veterans.

I'm going on a, want to make a unit better on the tabletop when compared to some of the flashier cousins (Sang Guard for example) over fluff.

Plus fluff has never really matched up to the rules anyways.

I think HBMC talked about having houserules to give them 2 wounds each, since similar units like Nobz and Tyranid Warriors (at the time) had 2 wounds each. Apparently it worked quite well.

You people do realize that Sternguard, Vanguard, and Terminators are the same guys inside?

Difference is that Van and Sternguard are them in PA not TDA.


I think that they definitly need a WS and BS pip. T is arguable from the fluff, but that might be OTT.

2 wounds is definite NONO, although it's not because they could abuse Wound allocation(since no more then 1/2 would have different equipment they couldn't do it as well)

Grey Templar wrote:You people do realize that Sternguard, Vanguard, and Terminators are the same guys inside?

Difference is that Van and Sternguard are them in PA not TDA.


I think that they definitly need a WS and BS pip. T is arguable from the fluff, but that might be OTT.

2 wounds is definite NONO, although it's not because they could abuse Wound allocation(since no more then 1/2 would have different equipment they couldn't do it as well)

Wrong. What did we say?
Termiantors have centuries of experince. Regular veterans do not!
Terminators are trained to fight in Terminator Armor. Veterans are not!

Actually I'm pretty sure that there are additional augmentations needed for a Space Marine to even use terminator armor, so they should be thougher then normal Space Marines.

Asherian Command wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:You people do realize that Sternguard, Vanguard, and Terminators are the same guys inside?

Difference is that Van and Sternguard are them in PA not TDA.

Wrong. What did we say?
Termiantors have centuries of experince. Regular veterans do not!
Terminators are trained to fight in Terminator Armor. Veterans are not!

No, that's what you said. It's pretty well established that Vanguard and Sterngaurd vets are the same kind of vets that qualify for terminator armour. The reason they don't wear it is either they prefer powered armour (see Huron Blackheart), the situation doesn't allow it, or they simply don't have enough suits of TDA to equip their veterans with.

Ashrian Command - sorry, youre wrong on your assertion that terminators are "better" than other vets.

Veterans arte just that: veteran. They are then further specialised into Vanguard, Sternguard or Terminators. But they are all veterans.

Your timescale on years is also incorrect - they promote on skill. You can be a Terminator after comparitively few years, if you show the right skills to wear said armour.

As to the poster who said they are "taller' - no, the armour is physically bigger. They are normal marines who can wear normal armour.

I like the idea of +1 to WS and BS for the vets not just Termi vets but stern and van. if they are the best of the best it makes since they would be better that sergeants or regular marines... stat line should be like so

scouts- 3 3 4 4 1 4 1 8 4+
regular marines- 4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+
Vets- 5 5 4 4 1 4 2 9 3+ or 2+5++

i think the +1 T and S or W are not needed they are still marines the fact that they can all have double strength weapons is enough for the S bonus and the T is used in the Termi armor better save. marines need a counter to all the other WS 5 units out there

P16 para 3 of the marine codex "The veterans of the 1st company are masters of all battlefield roles, and are permitted to fight as sternguard or vanguard squads as their proficiencies dictate, and can even fight in revered suits of terminator armour should the mission goal require it"

But I think they should get a bonus to their proficiency, not sure how it'd work with Sgts though

Asherian Command wrote:Wrong. What did we say?
Termiantors have centuries of experince. Regular veterans do not!
Terminators are trained to fight in Terminator Armor. Veterans are not!

You pulled information out of your ass, with no cited sources. Wrong information.

Terminators have centuries of experience, yes, but so do Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans. So do all Veterans, regardless of what kind of armor they're wearing.

A Terminator is nothing more than a First Company Veteran wearing Tactical Dreadnought Armor.

They definitely don't need a T boost (T4 is bad enough as it is), and a WS and BS boost is debatable, since they wouldn't be that much better than the already elite Space Marines from which the First Company is chosen.

And a second wound is ridiculous. Nobz are big and hard to kill just by virtue of being hard to kill, not because they're wearing tank armor. So are Tyranid Warriors. Terminators, on the other hand, are nothing more than squishy humans inside of tank armor. Once you get through said armor, it's easy to kill the human inside.

Yes, they're hard to kill. That's the 2+ armor save. Yes, they have a shield generator built into their armor. That's the 5+ invuln save.

Terminators are fine as they are.

I'd like to see Vets distinguished in the statline in some way from regular Sgts as well. The +1 WS and perhaps +1 BS makes sense. Beyond that seems OTT IMO.

Dracos wrote:I'd like to see Vets distinguished in the statline in some way from regular Sgts as well. The +1 WS and perhaps +1 BS makes sense. Beyond that seems OTT IMO.

Except that some Sergeants (specifically, Veteran Sergeants, who are not represented on the tabletop as such, beyond some helmet markings) are drawn from First Company.